I can’t count the number of times I have read here, and in affair books, that WSs suffer from low self-esteem. A character flaw, as it were. Low self-esteem is more often than not asserted as a primary reason they were vulnerable to the A.

I have been more than a little suspicious of this assertion. For one thing, WSs on MB seem to have two things in common: a sense of entitlement, for whatever reason, before and during the A; and a lot of frustration, after ending the A and entering into recovery, that BS is not doing things the way WS feels they should be done. BS is not on WS timetable, acting too reserved, not getting over it yet, acting too angry, asking uncomfortable questions for too long, and/or... Fill in the blanks.

These descriptions come from both WSs themselves and from BSs writing about what they are dealing with during Plan A, Plan B and during recovery.

These are not descriptions of WSs with low self-esteem. After everything WS has done, to feel these things and to act this way is a conceit in the extreme.

I am happy to say, someone appears to agree with me. There is an interesting article on self-esteem in this month’s issue of Scientific American. (Exploding Self Esteem the Myth, by R F Baumeister, Jennifer D Campbell, Joachim I Krueger and Kathleen D Vohs). The authors dispute the prevailing assumption that low self-esteem causes antisocial behavior in general and poor individual choices in particular.

Let me back up a bit. A few years ago the state of California decided that low self-esteem was the root cause of most social problems including, in typical la-la-land logic, low state tax receipts. So school systems were legislated to embark on a program of proactively building students’ self-esteem.

Well, this example of social engineering hasn’t worked. Not even a little bit. Grades are not better. Delinquency is not less. Recidivism is higher. Basically nothing is improved after years of proactively building self-esteem in students from kindergarten through college.

In the article, the authors note studies that demonstrate just the opposite is the problem. It is not low self-esteem but over inflated self-regard that correlates best with bad behavior and general unhappiness in life.

In particular, students given strong doses of personal responsibility improved their grades much more than students given a steady diet of esteem building.

Some examples from the studies show that schoolyard bullies are actually full of high self-esteem. People who cannot maintain long term close personal relationships, who tend to run when difficulties arise, and who do not face problems in a marriage all score high in self-esteem.

Also, high self-esteem correlates with the ability to start, but not maintain, relationships.

The correlation between people’s inflated self-assessments of themselves and their various issues is high. On the other hand, people clinically evaluated with low self-esteem do not have these problems nearly as much, do not tend to have affairs and are generally happier in life.

Further, when rated by others who know them, these high-self esteem people are scored much lower in admiration than they admired themselves. Evidently, others see the real high self-esteem person much differently than they see themselves. And this is even before the A.

Over-rated self-esteem is a characteristic of selfishness. Extreme selfishness is a marker for infidelity.

Perhaps self-esteem ought to be included in marital compatibility questionnaires. Then the prospective spouse should run from anyone whose self-esteem is high compared to how others see him or her.

Keep in mind, being later told you were vulnerable to an A because you have low self esteem and then convincing yourself of it, is not the same as having a high regard for yourself when you were starting the A and while you were doing all the work maintaining the A.

T

PS: New word for the week: floccinaucinihilipilification - the action or habit of estimating as worthless. It’s a characteristic of someone who cannot see the good in much of anything outside themselves. The lower one’s self esteem, the more floccinaucinihilipilification they tend to indulge in.

Thos - you just made my day.
I remember when I was teaching that this philosophy came along about building up self-esteem and I disagreed with it at the time. One of many that came along during my career and we would close our doors and do what we knew worked.

The only way you can really feel good about yourself is by working hard and achieving - reaching your potential, whatever that may be. I have thought this from the start (dday) and my FWH has agreed that the reason he had the unfair was that he was a selfish idiot and it was the biggest mistake of his life.

Another analogy is in sports. You can tell an athlete that he is really good and he is going to do really well in a race, trying to build up his confidence, but it will not work unless he has done the work needed.

If you tell an athlete before the start of a race that he has done all of the proper training and he is in just as good shape as anybody on the course he will have a much better chance of performing to his potential and in the final outcome will have high self esteem.
Well earned self-esteem!

My H was in the local papers constantly, being lauded for various achievements, when he started his unfair. He never blamed me at all but when I kept pushing for a reason, some childhood need that was going unmet, some dark inner issue, the only thing he could come up with was that he felt that I was criticizing him a lot of the time.

What I was really doing when unfair started (but going about it all wrong I now realize) was asking him to help me out with domestic chores so that I would have more time to spend with him.
He took that as criticism. You never do blah bah blah.
We were just so busy that we were spending too little time together. Enter younger woman who wants him and he is hooked and addicted.
Still bugs me that he did not have time to help me but had time to meet her for lunch.

I have wasted a lot of time searching for the whys of the unfair. He was selfish. End of story.

I think his unfair was floccinaucinihilipilification.
Have I got that right?
PW

It may well be that figuring out the why’s of a spouse’s A is a fool’s errand. The jury is still out for me. Perhaps it is in the end as simple as extreme selfishness and too high a regard for themselves.

Like Clinton said, “I did it because I could.”

Now there’s a guy with high self-esteem.


Edited to add: PW - I read a study several years ago that compared good primary school teachers with not so good teachers. The difference was good teachers teach no matter what the current education fad is. The poor teachers were relying on some new trick instead of rolling their sleeves up and taking personal responsibility.

T

<small>[ December 18, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Thos ]</small>

PW - "unfair", I love that!

That is very interesting to me. I need to think about it some more, as I thought affairs were a low self-esteem issue - with the need for flattery and ego boosts and all that. But maybe that is another issue.

It interests me mostly because of my daughter. She has very high self esteem, if she has that entitlement issue to go with it, than the whole world is in trouble. And I mean that.

I am glad you posted this because I really need to put some thought into it. And I am very serious about my daughter and her self esteem. This worries me because she does kind of give me the impression that she feels a certain entitlement.

I have often quoted Clinton's "I did it for the worst reason, because I could."

The other thing is that these people with high self-esteem are often very attractive. The self-esteem is rightly deserved and that makes them have many attractive qualities.

The 13 years younger XOW in our case was disappointed when she found out that her "new attractive friend" she met in the gym was married and then she decided to pursue him anyway and get him away from me.
Didn't happen. He loved me. She was just a fling that lasted way too long because of my denial.

Interesting stuff. Now I have to admit that the XOW does have some problems and if it wasn't low self-esteem in the beginning I am sure it must be now. I hope she is getting therapy. In my mind she is a very sick person and that is based on her history prior to involvement with my H.
PW

But, think about that 'sense of entitlement'. This is not the same as esteem. It is a justification for satisfying base, temporal appetites, to the degredation of self. It goes hand in hand with dishonesty (to self *and* others), the inability to curb the insatiable in oneself for some higher purpose.

The fact that the 'sense of entitlement' overrides personal integrity is, to me, a major sign of low self-esteem. To dishonor oneself--in those situations there is no part of the self that stands up for what is right or what is good in the self, so the transgression is carried out. For lack of self-esteem.

Sufficient self-esteem, God-esteem, higher-ideal-esteem--any of these would have made me strong enough to reject the MM's advances/silence the clamoring inner voice.

Admittedly, I did rush thru your post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Some examples from the studies show that schoolyard bullies are actually full of high self-esteem. People who cannot maintain long term close personal relationships, who tend to run when difficulties arise, and who do not face problems in a marriage all score high in self-esteem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I buy it.

Self-esteem and self-confidence... two different things...

Show me a schoolyard bully, and I'll show you a kid with high self-confidence, and low self-esteem.

Having read too much about NPD -- way too much -- what I hear you talking about is classic NPD.

(caveat: what I just wrote was a knee-jerk reaction -- I'm open-minded about the whole subject, in spite of my presentation. I'm just tired, that's all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

After everything WS has done, to feel these things and to act this way is a conceit in the extreme.

But, being conceited is a sign of low self-esteem. Joe Cool aka Snoopy once said: “If you have to tell yourself you are cool, then by definition you cannot be cool!”

Let me back up a bit. A few years ago the state of California decided that low self-esteem was the root cause of most social problems including, in typical la-la-land logic, low state tax receipts. So school systems were legislated to embark on a program of proactively building students’ self-esteem.
Well, this example of social engineering hasn’t worked. Not even a little bit. Grades are not better. Delinquency is not less. Recidivism is higher. Basically nothing is improved after years of proactively building self-esteem in students from kindergarten through college.

The above paragraph reflects one truth: No one can give self-esteem to someone else. Self-esteem can only be improved internally and I agree with you. Modern day pop psychologist who work for the school systems do not have a clue about what self-esteem is all about.

In the article, the authors note studies that demonstrate just the opposite is the problem. It is not low self-esteem but over inflated self-regard that correlates best with bad behavior and general unhappiness in life.

Inflated self regard is a typical Freudian mechanism of defense used by those who feel inadequate.

In particular, students given strong doses of personal responsibility improved their grades much more than students given a steady diet of esteem building.

OF COURSE!!!!!! The self-esteem can only be improved by one’s achievements and by reaching a state of integrity where the outer appearance reflects the inner content of a person.

Some examples from the studies show that schoolyard bullies are actually full of high self-esteem. People who cannot maintain long term close personal relationships, who tend to run when difficulties arise, and who do not face problems in a marriage all score high in self-esteem.

Oh Pallez, they score high in selfishness and their aggresivity is a sign of not being happy with what they have. It seems these folks equate good self-esteem with selfishness. Or maybe they imply that if you are happy with what you have you must have low self-esteem. I believe the latter is incorrect. A person can be a house painter and be fully realized and enjoy his craft whereas another person can be an Ivy League trained lawyer who is so ambitious and dissatisfied with what he has that embezzle money.

The correlation between people’s inflated self-assessments of themselves and their various issues is high.

I think the term "inflated" is very telling, don’t you think?


On the other hand, people clinically evaluated with low self-esteem do not have these problems nearly as much, do not tend to have affairs and are generally happier in life.

It all depends on how they define self-esteem. It seems they equate high self-esteem with feeling entitled. This is treacherous as folks with low self-esteem often feel undeserving------- however they only feel this way if they do not compensate. If they compensate or as you say "ingflate" themselves then they appear to be something else.

Further, when rated by others who know them, these high-self esteem people are scored much lower in admiration than they admired themselves.


Well-------- of course. Others can tell these folks are inflating their egos because they have a complex of inferiority!

Overrated self-esteem is a characteristic of selfishness. Extreme selfishness is a marker for infidelity.

But-------- they key word here is Overrated!

Simply put, Ws, school yard bullies, etc..... do it because they are selfish. When their selfish tendancies are left unchecked (by self or others), then situations, people and things suffer (i.e. work, families, home, friends, finances, mental/emotional stability, etc.).

Now the fix it not as simple. No magic or quick cure. Once that selfish tendancy takes root, it generally takes even longer to tear out. But it can. It depends on the person who has allowed it to take root in their heart. All the deep seated emotions and their actions have to be skillfully removed and the good part of that person, left in tact. Scars often are left as a reminder of how bad it once was. Sometimes called triggers, these scars c/b insensitive to some touches and very sensitve to other types of contact. Still it can be healed.

JMHO,
L.

Studies like these make me laugh.....because it is assumed that the people being studied are telling the truth, not deceiving themselves, etc. You can not EVER accurately measure another person's thoughts or what they TRULY feel about themselves because a man's heart is deceitful above all things....even to himself. The mind is powerful in that it can trick itself ABOUT itself.
And comparing other people's opinions with the opinion you hold of yourself....what's that about? How in the world is that a scientific measurement?

Thos, can you tell me.....WHY do you want to know WHY? What would you do with that information, once you knew, assuming it was completely accurate?


NOW

Self-esteem is feeling that you are valuable and lovable.
Self-esteem is developed in the early years by having a close nurturing, loving bond with a significant person, be it a parent, grandparent, sibling or other person.

Does this sound like an accurate definition?

Self-esteem also means living your life according to a set of principles and standards (religious or not).

Self-esteem also means living your life according to a set of principles and standards (religious or not)

For the most part, I post as the BS, but there was a time many years ago when I was a WS. Not the same kind of affair as my XH had that caused the DV. I didn't know about E/A's so I suppose staying in contact as friends could have been considered an E/A, but the P/A was very short and I never had any intentions of leaving my H.

NEVERTHELESS!!...it was an affair, and at the time it happened, my self-esteem was in the toilet. I was not focused on God (hadn't done a good job EVER committing to living his way after I was saved), and I let myself do something very stupid because I felt unloved, unwanted, lonely, and OP made me feel good.

But in the end, did my self-esteem increase? Did I feel all better about myself. Absolutely NOT! I felt worse..,.much, MUCH worse!

Fast forward to now. I am now DV because my XH had his 2nd affair (and his are in-your-face, "entitled" affairs). I'm sure I could have turned to someone during this very painful year and found comfort. But I knew it wasn't right, and I knew it wasn't what God wanted for me. I now know, after my painful learning experiences, I am worth more than lowering myself to that.

And now, I can look back and be proud of how I handled myself during this whole ordeal. I lived my life according to a set of principles I believe strongly in, and I feel much better for it.

LL

PW – “The other thing is that these people with high self-esteem are often very attractive.”

Right. This is also in the article. High self-esteem people regard their appearance highly.


Tgt – “Self-esteem and self-confidence... two different things...”

Perhaps. I don’t know, myself. Self-esteem seems to affect one’s confidence, though. That high self-esteem people are better at initiating relationships is discussed in the article. Where some have trouble is in maintaining relationships honestly.

BTW, what is NPD?


Stanley – “But, being conceited is a sign of low self-esteem. Joe Cool aka Snoopy once said: ‘If you have to tell yourself you are cool, then by definition you cannot be cool!’”

Heehee. I remember that particular strip. I need to point out that some of the words I used in the parts of the post that reflect my thoughts are not necessarily what the authors would have used. Conceit is one of them. I used that word of my own volition when describing what I read regarding some WSs here. The word is not, as I recall, used in the article.

My post should be partitioned into three sections. An intro of my observations and why I thought the article was relevant to me. A body that describes some of the article. Lastly, a conclusion that expresses some more of my thoughts, in my words.

Stanley - “Inflated self regard is a typical Freudian mechanism of defense used by those who feel inadequate.”

Freud. Well, as I recall Freud is largely passé in psychiatric circles now. He lives on in pop psychology mostly. But I will say this. AI researchers are using his mind map effectively in state of the art autonomous robot research. I worked on an AI project a while ago where we implemented an Ego processor as part of the awareness cycle. Very successful project too.

Stanley – “Oh Pallez, they score high in selfishness and their aggresivity is a sign of not being happy with what they have. It seems these folks equate good self-esteem with selfishness.”

Again, the article says only they score high in self-esteem. Any relationship to selfishness is only in my separate op-ed section. I probably should have made my thoughts and my words more clearly separate from the article highlights.

The article does state: “Bullies reported less anxiety and were more sure of themselves than other children.”


NOW – “because it is assumed that the people being studied are telling the truth, not deceiving themselves, etc.”

I think you are certainly correct. They discuss this issue in the article. One method used was to track subjects over an extended period of time and interview them in more than one way.

NOW – “Thos, can you tell me WHY do you want to know WHY? What would you do with that information, once you knew, assuming it was completely accurate?”

Good question. I have been under the impression that S_ needs to figure out why she did this, and did it for so very long. If she cannot undertsand why, the MB opinion is lightning will strike again. Remember, I am dealing with a LTA that started atypically – only two days after they met for the first time. There wasn’t any of this not just friends stuff or a long slippery slope. She leapt off the edge of the cliff immediately. So why? They just clicked?

And, she kept it going during six months of MC after DDay1. Even though she demonstrated true remorse, she did not end it. She did not even tell OMM I knew. (OMM claimed when I confronted him after DDay2 he would have ended it then and there. Certainly an arugument for exposure, huh.)

I guess I need to feel safe. I am looking for a reason, a cause, that can be addressed and eliminated. ENs and personal boundaries do not seem to be the complete answer here. Add in FOO issues, self-esteem, my own relationship habits and ten other factors and it quickly becomes way too confusing for my feeble mind.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been under the impression that S_ needs to figure out why she did this, and did it for so very long. If she cannot undertsand why, the MB opinion is lightning will strike again.

I guess I need to feel safe. I am looking for a reason, a cause, that can be addressed and eliminated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thos - I think this is the key. You need your W to understand and communicate clearly to you why she did this. You NEED her to, in order to feel safe. If she has issues she is reluctant to face, then it is your boundary that she must at least make a decent effort to face them, and keep going until she can give you an answer.
The answer might involve self-esteem, or it might not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Add in FOO issues, self-esteem, my own relationship habits and ten other factors and it quickly becomes way too confusing for my feeble mind.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thos,

You're not alone. We humans are a complicated bunch. If there was an easy way to figure these things out, we'd have done it long ago. I do hope you find some answers that will help you come to terms with this....at least enough that you can move forward. Sometimes when I think I've figured out why I cheated on my husband, I start to wonder if "that" was really it....I wonder if I think "that" because that's what I've been TOLD, or if I've just managed to convince myself of a reason just for the sake of having some sense of control over it...usually, the more I learn, the more I realize how very little I really know.
We're all in this together....BS's and WS's...we really are on the same side.

Best to You,

NOW

Thos -I suppose I did get self-esteem mixed up with self-confidence. I think you can work on building self-confidence but self-esteem is developed very early in life. IMHO

With regards to finding the answer to the big WHY, I know that when I read Noodles thread called Good Fences, I found it helped me with understanding why.

It was not that either of us had personal issues to deal with (at least not in our case I think) but it was more of a case of poor boundaries. And once you cross that boundary once, then WTH, it was fun, once more won't hurt and before you know it, there is an unfair relationship going on. Some needs are being met - maybe just excitement and thrill, living on the edge, maybe just diferent sex - but then it can be hard to get out of and it does become an addiction.

And as long as the spouse does not know the infidel figures nobody is really getting hurt.

I allowed my H to have this friendship and I should not have allowed it at all. I was so secure that he loved me that I did not think he would cross that line. I don't think either of us had any idea just how very much it would hurt.

So now I know better and so does he.
By the way have you ever read Chorus' WHY? I searched but can't find it. If I find it I will post it.

PW

THOS:

I just wanted to thank you for sending me the book SAA ... It has helped me so much and my ww finished reading it and so far she is on day 27 of NC..

I can't thank you enough...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=035064

You know, this discussion reminds me of one of those National Geographic specials where some English Phd is trying to explain the behavior of some aboriginal culture. It's interesting, but invariably little more than a few stabs in the dark with some dogged insistance on the applicability of a self determined theory.

I am an ex-WS. I have met many ex-WS and some current WS. While the general mechanisms involved with affairs tend to be similar, there are a variety of reasons why people may choose to enter into an affair.

Low self-worth is a big one. Affairs are self-destructive behavior...just like drugs, alcohol, and other risk taking activities. If one does not have a very high opinion of one's self, or for that matter, has little sense of who "self" even is, one is quite likely to engage in bahaviors that may be self destructive.

You know why I did it? It's an escape from the failure I believed was my real life. I wanted to feel successful and desirable...at any cost. I convinced myself that I'd been miserable long enough and deserved better (sense of entitlement).
This can be quite confusing to the BS who may perceive us as being successful and confident...but it's not about how YOU perceive us. It's how we see ourselves.

I believe it's terribly important for a WS to come to a point of understanding about what happened (or is happening) to them. Most BS find it very difficult to believe that their WS doesn't know why they did it. It's the truth. It took me a VERY long time to really understand why I fell and even longer to come to a place where I believed I could prevent it from happening again.

It's less important that my wife knows why I did it than it is that I know why I did it and can assure her I won't do it again.

So, simple labels like "selfish" are obvious because affairs are obviously selfish behavior. They are not helpful. What is driving the selfishness is truly what's at issue. When the WS can identify what's driving the desire, they can then resolve it and come to peace with themselves.

I believe selfish behavior is most often driven by a fragile sense of self...driven by fear.
Before my affair, my sense of morality was severely challenged. I wondered if the morals I'd chosen to live by had any value whatsoever, so I gave myself permission to experiment with alternate moralities. I was trying to redefine my "self". I was beating myself up for wasting my life on sacrifice and honor when I could choose the reward RIGHT NOW and enjoy it. Things went very twisted from there.

Low

To add a note about boundaries...

Boundaries are only a part of the explanation. Lack of boundaries may allow OPPORTUNITY for infidelity, but won't drive the WS into it. The primary component is a disconnect in the marriage relationship.

So, you can apply new boundaries all day long, but if you don't fix the relationship you'll do nothing but create frustration, anger, and resentment.

On the other hand, if you repair the core relationship issues, you will have less need to rely on iron boundaries.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I can’t count the number of times I have read here, and in affair books, that WSs suffer from low self-esteem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a slightly different theory...

NOT "low" self esteem

but

"borrowed self esteem"

A sense of self dependant on the eyes of someone else looking favorably upon them.

And after a few years of marriage reality ... the WS has a damaged view of him/herself simply because they have all along borrowed their sense of how attractive, or how desiarable, or how clever, or how sexy they are FROM outside sources! And when the marriage partner is not filling that role sufficiently due to the every day this and that of life ---> in walks the great flatterer ... the OP who strokes the ego and the WS's self-esteem rises .... NOT due to personal merit or their own well-earned esteem .... but due to outside-the-self ego massage !!!

I've not yet seen the affair (romantic kind of affair) that did not have other-validated self-esteem at play somewhere in the mix.

And.... I think this is the actual loss felt during the "withdrawl" period. The REAL sense of loss is that the source of other-validated self esteem has been amputated. And the loss is the flattery, the ego stroking, and the feeling of someone else who (in the words of ooh-too-many WW's) ---> "The one person in the entire world who knew the real me, and understood me."

Bleech!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Very perceptive, Pep. I'd have to agree. But as sordid and unpalatable as it may sound, never underestimate the power of that ego stroke on someone who's desperate to have it.

I sacrificed so much to get it...my wife's trust and respect, my own integrity, and credibility as a father. But none of that mattered at the time. I NEEDED the stroke.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> never underestimate the power of that ego stroke on someone who's desperate to have it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is some ego-stroking on the boards from time to time... interesting !

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have a slightly different theory...
NOT "low" self esteem
but
"borrowed self esteem"
A sense of self dependant on the eyes of someone else looking favorably upon them.
And after a few years of marriage reality ... the WS has a damaged view of him/herself simply because they have all along borrowed their sense of how attractive, or how desiarable, or how clever, or how sexy they are FROM outside sources! And when the marriage partner is not filling that role sufficiently due to the every day this and that of life ---> in walks the great flatterer ... the OP who strokes the ego and the WS's self-esteem rises .... NOT due to personal merit or their own well-earned esteem .... but due to outside-the-self ego massage !!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing else can be add to this post, but I thought it would be nice to do "reprise" ala Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

::: never underestimate the power of that ego stroke on someone who's desperate to have it

This is the crux of the matter. OK, let's reflect on humanity, unfaithfulness and why it happens.

If you look around an airport or a mall, you will notice that the vast majority of people are average looking. Youth aside, there are barely 20% of people who are physcially very attractive. The bulk of us are very average looking - but it is left the the bulk of humanity to mate, have off spring and keep the species going. God or Evolution, has devised a chemcial mechanism to make sure that everyone, plain or handsome, has a go at pairing off (married or not). Most people know where they are on the scale of attractiveness. If you are average, at some level you know it. (and we're not talking about the real beauty that exists within - which isn't a factor in infidelity - if it was this board wouldn't exist).

So, in order to suit the average Joe Public, the process of bringing the opposite sex together has to be powerful (to attract people into the mating game, and to keep them in it).

Of the 20 or so people that I know personally who've had affairs only a small percentage, probably 3 of them are physically good looking.

I propose that those who get caught in the infidelity trap have a fundamental insecurity over their attractiveness (it might be real or it might be imagined). Given that the vast majority of people are average, and the vast majority of WSs, by statistical relationship are average - couldn't it be that their expectations of being attractive to an OP was so remote that they were caught unawares and by surprise? The power of their reaction to the OP rocked them.

REmember that the endorphines that flood the brain, when feeling excited by the attention of OP are very powerful. They literally chase away rational thought and bask the victim is a sea of euphoria. Even at this stage, the WS doesn't intend to cheat. They just want to enjoy the good feelings they are experienceing. They don't see any harm in basking in the glory a little longer (anyone ever been sunburned?) It's easy to miscalculate how long you can to stay .....

I think the vulnerability is not specific to self esteem - either high or low. I think it's the lack of belief in one's attractiveness that makes them vulnerable to an A. Vulnerable people are unused to this kind of attention and the feeling of pleasure they get from it - they allow themselves to believe it's truly deserved and adds to their feel good arrow soaring off the board.

I also suspect that conflict avoiders and people pleasers are particularly at risk. The A process of dealing with an attentive OP, is very compelling. In A's the potential WS wants to please the OP who is paying them so much positive attention. They want to reward them. We all think we are pretty good, but when someone unexpectedly comes along and says I think you are pretty good too, it's like wow, this person knows how good I am - and I thought no one knew. This is when the lying begins. The WS pretends to be what the OP thinks of them. They want to live up to the OP's opinion of them. So they lie by omission or by inference - they take on a new persona to the OP and try to sculp themselves into what they think will please the OP. If you are a people pleaser, then you love positive attention from anyone. Praise is everything. But what happens when one specific person is giving you loads of one on one attention? It's overwhelming. It's heart warming and it's thrilling.

Thos, my H didn't know his OP either. But he would have been thrilled thinking that a lovely young shapely woman was attracted to him. He had the evidence in front of him. 'Face value' reinforced it. Lovely young woman had written him a 'come on' letter. If he'd thought about it more carefully, he would have realised she wasn't really attracted to him (25 yrs age difference) - but he was already swimming in a sea of endorphines that made him feel great to have been singled out by this attractive young woman who he believed had seen his specialness and validated his feelings of self importance. How was he meant to say no - and return to being ordinary?

Never have you seen a person change so much so quickly over someone he didn't even know. He knew me for 35 yrs and I counted for nothing in comparison to this huge attack on his emotions.

Me? I've had lots of opportunities to cheat. I considered it would be lowering myself to do so. I didn't want to give this part of myself to someone else. Generally I have low self esteem, and I feel insignificant that I haven't had a career for example. But I have always believed myself attractive in looks and in personality. Obviously it was a terrible blow to discover that neither of those things protects one from a spouse who is vulnerable to flattery.

Your wife probably got into her A because of unexpected flattery. It's a lot to do with the wrong place, at the wrong time IMHO.


AN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wife probably got into her A because of unexpected flattery. It's a lot to do with the wrong place, at the wrong time IMHO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why people cheat?

I used to think it was a strong attraction for the opposite sex and the thrill to experience the NEW aspect of the OP.

I certainly have attraction for the opposite sex and I believe it would be a thrill to experience the NEW. However, I have not cheated.

I never thought about the fact that dating an attractive woman was supposed to boost my ego. I dated an attractive woman because I actually liked her. It was all about attraction and whatever God put inside of us to make us replicate.

However, I always had strong boundaries. If a woman was taken, then she was off limits. In fact, not being free and available was a turn-off. I still recognized that a married woman was or could be amazingly beautiful, but I subconsciously took her off the roster.

Whenever, I had a chance to cheat I immediately realized it did not feel natural to betray and to lie. To be able to betray and lie requires a lot of energy----- negative energy. I simply don’t have negative energy.

Cheaters cheat because they don’t have a superego. Those who don’t cheat have a superego.

So Freud is alive and well.


As for my wife:

She is one of the beautiful people! Everyone agrees------ she is very attractive. Her OM is well below average. Yes, he is not even in the average looks group and actually described himself as the “gordito feo"(ugly fatso) aka “the beast”.

His affair emails were 90% devoted to praise my wife. OM also assumed the role of monitoring and elevating my wife’s self-esteem. This was evident in just about every email I intercepted. When OM called after D-day his main concern was my wife's self-esteem.

WHY WOULD A VERY ATTRACTIVE WOMAN NEED A VERY UNATTRACTIVE MAN TO BOOST HER SELF ESTEEM? I really don’t know.

I believe there must have been some of that attraction that God put in us to make us replicate and perhaps this is independent of looks.

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

Hi All
I want to talk about attraction. I don't think attraction has to be physical. It can be attraction because of leadership qualities, humor, intelligence or any one of a number of personal qualities. Maybe just empathy if someone is feeling down.
I find that the more "in love' I feel wth my H the more attractive he is physically.

If I am really upset and angry with him then he doesn't look so hot. His big beautiful blue eyes become little beady orbs.

So that powerful ego stroke can be for any number of things and looks do not have to be part of it.

I mean look at the online relationships that develop without any knowledge of the person's looks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi All
I want to talk about attraction. I don't think attraction has to be physical. It can be attraction because of leadership qualities, humor, intelligence or any one of a number of personal qualities. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahh!!!!

Me = a man
You = a woman


Many years ago there was a survey made in many countries of the planet about what men and women find attractive in the opposite sex.

This is what men rated high:

1. Waist to hip ratio of 0.70
2. Youth

Obviously the above has to do with looks.

Women did not rate looks, they liked:

1. Intelligence, character, integrity
2. Ability to provide


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So that powerful ego stroke can be for any number of things and looks do not have to be part of it.
I mean look at the online relationships that develop without any knowledge of the person's looks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife’s OM used the Internet to romance her. However, he knew what she looked like. My wife knew OM was ugly, but as you said his smooth words and constant adulation made him attractive.

Women are less hung-up on looks----- a well-known fact. BTW, my wife only went into permanent NC when she learned OM had major flaws in his character. As far as I know he is still an ugly dude.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men and women also have extremely different criteria when it comes to mate selection. The old ideas of women looking for stability and security are still very much a part of our society, even with the new found independence enjoyed by woman today who are more than capable of providing for themselves. Men on the other hand are looking for physical beauty and desirable qualities. Men tend to rate the physical above all other points of criteria. And these stereotypical approaches to attraction are not just in America, but seemingly occur across the board and into many different cultures. In fact it can be this unchecked partnership between physical beauty and a fat pocketbook that can lead to the most dreadful pairings and relationships based on attraction alone. (Norman, 1998) In a study presented by Jan Norman in her article, The Evolutionary Theory of Attraction, the cross-cultural implications of attraction are astoundingly similar: Of 10,000 individuals from 37 different cultures and six continents, the results appear amazing similar to those gathered from US college students. In all cultures studied, females rated men with greater earning potential higher on the mate choice scale. Men in all 37 cultures consistently valued physical attractiveness in potential mates significantly more than did their female counterparts in the study. While women preferred males slightly older than themselves, men state that their ideal mate would be younger than themselves. Although the possibility cannot be dismissed, such extensive global similarities are unlikely to be the result of learned patterns. It seems likely that such natural preferences have evolved to give our- hunter-gatherer ancestors a reproductive advantage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sexual Selection
A Scientific American Library paperback
James L. Gould (Princeton U.)
Carol Grant Gould

Preface
1. The Paradox of Sex
2. What Is Sex?
3. Why Sex?
4. The Discovery of Sexual Selection
5. Nonsocial Species
6. Territory and Hierarchies
7. Female Choice
8. Stratagems and Deceit
9. Human Mate Selection
Selected Readings
Sources of Illustrations
Index

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

***These are not descriptions of WSs with low self-esteem. After everything WS has done, to feel these things and to act this way is a conceit in the extreme.***

I am sooooo with you on this. My husband behaved exactly this way. He was fully capable of lying to me day after day while he helped himself with both hands to the female buffet spread out at work, and never suffered the slightest twinge of consience about it. He thought he was king of the world with girlfriends at work, strippers on the road, and an uncomplaining wife at home. Gee, why didn't everybody do this? All you have to do is lie and manipulate! They just weren't as smart as he was!

I also remember the study you brought up. My H is the perfect example of a guy who honestly thinks he is entitled to all he can get and does not see why this should be a problem for anybody else - and if it is, there's something wrong with *them.*

I definitely agree that low self-esteem -- really, low self-respect -- is not usually the problem in people who cheat in their marriages. It's a warped and over-inflated sense of entitlement mixed with a good dose of good old-fashioned selfishness.

This also explains why, except in a clear-cut "exit" affair, most WS try everything to keep both their marriage and their affair. They aren't "confused" and they aren't trying to "choose" -- they honestly feel that they are so special and different that they are entitled to both, and they don't see why they shouldn't have it.

Until OP stop settling for this situation, and until spouses refuse to tolerate it, it will go on and on and on. That's why it *does* matter why people cheat -- if we better understand why it happens, maybe the rest of us will have a better chance of protecting ourselves and can recognize the red flags before it's too late.
Mulan

Stan-ley, The study you quoted fits my H's OW exactly. However my H was 25 yrs older than her, so I presume he appeared to ahve all the qualities she looked for in a mate - though having him 25 yrs older was pushing the envelop a bit for a 26 yo. Shows how well true the study was - defys even age barriers - and yes they were mixed culture as well.

Our situation is a classic example of your study's findings.

btw what is Fraud's superego?

AN

Actually, the study which included people from 37 countries and six continents was looking at attraction between men and women outside an affair. Attraction within an affair may very well be somewhat similar, but I really doubt that. Particularly from the side of women.

Men look for beauty and youth whether they are single or married. In other words we are shallow.

Woman look for other qualities such as integrity, intelligence, good provider, ability to hold a job, ect.

However a married woman may not be looking at those factors. She may simply want someone to fill a specific need even if that man has inferior qualities (less integrity, less intelligence, ect).

In affair the key ingredient is opportunity, availability, and the ability to be deceitful. In the study these qualities are not rated.

Freud thought that the mind had a conscious aspect, “the ego“ and an animal aspect “the id“. Then somewhere in the back of the conscience was the “superego”. The superego makes us behave in an honorable manner and if we have a good superego we tend to have good ethics. Those with poor superegos tend to be unethical. Unfortunately according to Freud the “superego” could only be developed in childhood.

http://www.wilderdom.com/personality/L8-4StructureMindIdEgoSuperego.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Men look for beauty and youth whether they are single or married. In other words we are shallow.

Woman look for other qualities such as integrity, intelligence, good provider, ability to hold a job, ect.

However a married woman may not be looking at those factors. She may simply want someone to fill a specific need even if that man has inferior qualities (less integrity, less intelligence, ect).

In affair the key ingredient is opportunity, availability, and the ability to be deceitful. In the study these qualities are not rated</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, this is quite true. In fact the one of the reasons I knew I couldn't really have a "real" life with FOM was he wasn't someone I would want to raise my children and was not in any position to be a good provider. On top of all that I really did love my H, he just made himself so unavailable to me during that time and I was stuck home with young children. Not a good reason I know but there it is.

My H on the other hand had A's with women that are younger and more attractive than me and made him feel attractive. I guess I wasn't good at filling the admiration EN.

Good thread, very interesting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I propose that those who get caught in the infidelity trap have a fundamental insecurity over their attractiveness (it might be real or it might be imagined)... they were caught unawares and by surprise... The power of their reaction to the OP rocked them.

Remember that the endorphines that flood the brain, when feeling excited by the attention of OP are very powerful... the WS doesn't intend to cheat. They just want to enjoy the good feelings they are experiencing. They don't see any harm in basking in the glory a little longer (anyone ever been sunburned?) It's easy to miscalculate how long you can to stay ..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN, I think this is spot on for many (most?) WS. The insecurity might be also about other things, not only physical attractiveness... things like intelligence, being interesting and funny, having worthwhile ideas and points of view, being worthy of respect and care.

Previously, in my R, my H sometimes unknowingly (and unintentionally?) gave me signals, often through 'jokes' that I didn't find funny, that he thought I was boring, lacking energy or drive, not very smart, and also that he didn't respect my values (he thought I was trying too hard to be "good" when I expressed a lot of concern about other's feelings). I know that this damaged my self-esteem at the time, as well as creating some distance between us. If I brought it up, back then, he wouldn't validate my feelings, but just tell me it was a 'joke', so basically I should get over it.

I think this is why OM, seeming to find me interesting, attractive, funny, intelligent, etc, had such a surprisingly powerful effect on me at the time. I didn't see the danger since I also thought that I was 'strong', and wouldn't act in a way that I would later have cause to regret.

::::Attraction within an affair may very well be somewhat similar, but I really doubt that. Particularly from the side of women.

Stan-ley, I really like your input! I saw a small study where men selected from pictures of women that they'd like to have sex with as opposed to women they'd prefer for a wife. I gather the two were quite different. However the reality has to fall somewhere between the two. Circumstances often dictate that we be flexible on both counts.

::::Men look for beauty and youth whether they are single or married. In other words we are shallow.

Not you apparently. You already stated that you are not the betraying kind. Just out of interest, do you think you feel differently now? I'm asking you to dig into your sub conscious. Do you feel that the contract you agreed upon with your wife has been invalidated - let me add, if you were to find yourself in a very attractive situation with opportunity and desire would your commitment to fidelity be as strong as it was prior to your w's A? (guess I'm wondering whether your id, ego and superego are a bit messed up now?)

The other thing is that no one can predict how they will respond to someone very attractive to them, who they haven't met yet. How many WS here will tell you that they were totally committed to fidelity up to the moment they met OP? So guess my question to you is somewhat pointless.

::::Woman look for other qualities such as integrity, intelligence, good provider, ability to hold a job, ect.

One of my friends left a very wealthy good looking H for a total idiot. This has always been a huge mystery to me - I know the rich H had his faults but he was like the Dalhi Lama in comparison to the bloke she jumped ship for. I don't think the OM had held down one job for more than six months, his entire life!

::::However a married woman may not be looking at those factors. She may simply want someone to fill a specific need even if that man has inferior qualities (less integrity, less intelligence, ect).

ARe they LOOKING FOR anything? Or are they accidents waiting to happen? Smur's comments were interesting. She needed validation from OP that she wasn't nothing as a woman. I'm sure I'd have cheated in her situation too. I abhor men who make snide remarks about their wives. The stupid thing is that my H used to hang off every word I said. He made me feel interesting, attractive and loved. (until he cheated)

::::::In affair the key ingredient is opportunity, availability, and the ability to be deceitful. In the study these qualities are not rated.

I heard it was opportunity and desire. I gather the deceitfulness can be added even by people who've previously been very honest.

::::Freud thought that the mind had a conscious aspect, “the ego“ and an animal aspect “the id“. Then somewhere in the back of the conscience was the “superego”. The superego makes us behave in an honorable manner and if we have a good superego we tend to have good ethics. Those with poor superegos tend to be unethical. Unfortunately according to Freud the “superego” could only be developed in childhood.

I looked at the web site. Thanks for adding this to the discussion. I really cannot answer why your wife would have an A with an ugly guy. But I found it interesting that when she became aware of his flaws she could get rid of him.

Smur, Guess you're H now thinks twice at using sarcasm on you? This is almost the only reason I could justify an A (though, I prolly would have stopped it the first time it happened). Men who do this are very hard to cure of it. Do you think they have an inferiority complex and belittling their wives makes them feel better?

AN

I think my H's OW was only interested in my H for money. He was a sting. But I suspect she started to comprehend that, cheating aside, he was a really nice person. He truly was dozy to get involved with her but he tried to remain his nice self to her - but he was totally sucked in by her big warm smile and confident personality and great looks. I suspect his airhead OW actually started to like him a little after she started the sting. Opposite of your wife's situation. Apparently she started confessing that she was a very bad person to him and I think it was because she realised she was messing up his life and he really didn't deserve it.

Stanley, I have not had a chance to read your link yet. Where I work the firewall prevents access to MB. So I only log in from home. And then only every other day or so. Probably a good thing, else I would not get much work done.

Some of the traits you list correlate well with my W’s A. Older man, good looking, rich, exciting (ex fighter pilot), etc. On the other hand, there are exceptions. He has no integrity, many A’s, a real player; he talked a good game but in reality treated her much worse than she admitted at first. The things she complained about me while in the fog he actually did in spades to her all the time. (I still occasionally see a transfer of anything good I did with or for her to him and anything bad he did onto me. It’s like she can’t separate us at times.)

Something else to consider re my W’s A is the social environment. The corporate culture in this company is very A friendly. Most executives are having them. It’s part of the executive compensation package. W felt entitled, perhaps even pressured, by her peers I think.

My W has very high self-esteem in most things. One does not rise to a directorship of a Fortune 500 company by being a self-depreciating wallflower. Nor by overcompensation in weak areas of ones personality. She is real. She has more than a lot on the ball. She has the ability to slam-dunk.

No, the main ingredient according to her was a feeling of frustration with her whole life. She felt at times as if she had outgrown me. It is a lot like Low Orbit wrote. She was increasingly depressed and angry she didn’t have more in her life already. A happy home-life, motherhood, love of a doting H and a beautiful child, a high-ranking position at work was not enough. Even her morals, ethics and upbringing came into question for her. She felt they were stifling her and not applicable to someone in control of their own destiny. She was ripe for a new life.

Well, IMO based on what we have talked about so far.

Like Smur writes I, unintentionally, gave my W the perception I did not value her accomplishments. I still don’t know how I did this but it’s what she says. I know I tend to lecture sometimes. But I just thought, since she is so intelligent, she was like the engineers and scientists I work with – play devils advocate, throw out hypotheses, discuss things until the best alternative rises to the top. She says now these discussions we used to have (I no longer do this with her, haven’t since DDay1 six years ago now) made her feel as though she was a little girl who needed to be told what to do. Hardly, she usually got her way anyway – I just thought she liked exploring alternatives.

Physical, intellectual (OMM said he mainly was intellectually attracted to her, if one were to believe him, and I don’t recommend it) and emotional attraction was all there. And it went on for so long attachment became very strong. I think even though he dumped her and blamed everything on her to his wife and friends and me, if they were to accidentally run into each other there could be a restart of the A.

This is why I need to know why. To assess the future probabilities.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Guess you're H now thinks twice at using sarcasm on you? ... Do you think they have an inferiority complex and belittling their wives makes them feel better? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi all,

To be fair to H, I don't think he really understood the effect it had on me. At other times he did say nice things in public both about me and about how he felt about me, so I guess he thought I 'should have' known that he valued me.

I tried to tell him I sometimes felt hurt or insulted by his comments or 'jokes', but since he has, in this respect at least, a very healthy self-esteem, I think he didn't 'get' how important it was for me. If it were him, he could have laughed off this kind of comment, since he would have known it wasn't really true. Since he generally saw me as successful, I guess he must have thought I saw myself the same way. But for me, it reinforced the low opinion I had of myself.

Thos, well done for recognising your W's feelings and trying to change. I think this is the hardest thing, changing parts of ourselves that seem innocent to us but actually hurt our S. I can very much understand your need to know why. I hope your W can also come to understand, for her own sake.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 03:52 AM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

Gee you darn guys have got me going again. I had given up on understanding why and decided it was because he could and it was fun and nobody would get hurt.

Now I am back to analyzing his whole life and mine and the XOW!

Thos - one little thing stood out in your post.
Some of the traits you list correlate well with my W’s A. Older man, good looking, rich, exciting (ex fighter pilot),

I heard a young air force pilot in Alaska talk about the different groups in the armed forces. He described the fighter pilots as "living on the edge" types and as womanizers.
That may partially explain your wife's XOP.

Stan-ley: I don't remember much child psychology anymore but it seems to me that someone may be a high achiever because they are searching for ego-stroking because of an insufficiently developed super-ego from inadequate bonding in early-childhood.

So to apply this to my husband -intelligent high achiever - born to young mother with rather poor natural, nurturing qualities while her husband was overseas during WW2, and unable to provide support. He did not see his son until many months after he was born.

I write this and then I think No way! He was just pursued aggressively by a sexy young thing and he could not resist. He thought I would not know so I could not be hurt. It was just sex and admiration, not love. He loved me.

So I am back to boundaries. I did not establish and communicate my boundaries well enough.
I have to keep him on a short leash or in the back yard with a high fence just like my dog. Either that or get him fixed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
PW

:::I write this and then I think No way! He was just pursued aggressively by a sexy young thing and he could not resist. He thought I would not know so I could not be hurt. It was just sex and admiration, not love. He loved me.

PW, I'm afraid that you are right. Same for my H. I know that my H would never have cheated if we hadn't decided to live apart for a little while, to suit our family problems at the time. Then one day he received a letter from a very pretty, well built 26 yo native girl (indonesian), who asked him to teach her English and to get to know her better. (she finished the letter by saying it would be a secret between them) I've got a copy of the letter. He was just so flattered and attracted to her physical appearence. He'd never been the type to come on to women, but since one had approached him, and was there for the taking..... it got the better of him.

I'm not so sure he loved me too much when he decided to follow up on the letter - but he loved me the minute I discovered the A. He dropped her like a hot cake. It's actually quite flattering for both you and me to see that our H's chose us over younger women. My H's OW had large breasts too - his favorite. (which I only had when I was pregnant!)

Why does it have to be so very distressing for the BS though?

AN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W has very high self-esteem in most things. One does not rise to a directorship of a Fortune 500 company by being a self-depreciating wallflower. Nor by overcompensation in weak areas of ones personality. She is real. She has more than a lot on the ball. She has the ability to slam-dunk.
No, the main ingredient according to her was a feeling of frustration with her whole life. She felt at times as if she had outgrown me. It is a lot like Low Orbit wrote. She was increasingly depressed and angry she didn’t have more in her life already. A happy home-life, motherhood, love of a doting H and a beautiful child, a high-ranking position at work was not enough. Even her morals, ethics and upbringing came into question for her. She felt they were stifling her and not applicable to someone in control of their own destiny. She was ripe for a new life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is possible to be a very high achiever and still have low self-esteem.

In essence good self –esteem means that the exterior matches the interior in all aspects. IN other words that is the definition of true integrity----------------- the inner and the outer are the same. When she feels like this:

She was increasingly depressed and angry she didn’t have more in her life already.

She is on her way to have low self-esteem and she may do something illicit to get what she wants.

You said: Even her morals, ethics and upbringing came into question for her. She felt they were stifling her and not applicable to someone in control of their own destiny.

This is the hallmark of low self-esteem. She kept drifting and the disparity between her inner self and the outer appearance kept growing. There was no integrity and hence low self-esteem.

As I said achievements mean nothing. You can be a house painter and be very happy and fulfilled with your job or you can be an Ivy League lawyer who feels like your wife. Obviously your wife did not view her life as a success. I think that would be low self-esteem!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Story on Self-Esteem


You can't touch it, but it affects how you feel. You can't see it, but it's there when you look at yourself in the mirror. You can't hear it, but it's there every time you talk about yourself. What is this important but mysterious thing? It's your self-esteem!

What Is Self-Esteem?
To understand self-esteem, it helps to break the term into two words. Let's take a look at the word esteem first. Esteem (say: ess-teem) is a fancy word for thinking that someone or something is important or valuing that person or thing. For example, if you really admire your friend's dad because he volunteers at the fire department, it means you hold him in high esteem. And the special trophy for the most valuable player on a team is often called an esteemed trophy. This means the trophy stands for an important accomplishment.

And self means, well, yourself! So when you put the two words together, it's easier to see what self-esteem is. It's how much you value yourself and how important you think you are. It's how you see yourself and how you feel about your achievements. Self-esteem isn't bragging about how great you are. It's more like quietly knowing that you're worth a lot (priceless, in fact!). It's not about thinking you're perfect - because nobody is - but knowing that you're worthy of being loved and accepted..

Why Self-Esteem Is Important
Self-esteem isn't like a cool pair of sneakers that you'd love to have but don't have to have. A kid needs to have self-esteem.

Good self-esteem is important because it helps you to hold your head high and feel proud of yourself and what you can do. It gives you the courage to try new things and the power to believe in yourself. It lets you respect yourself, even when you make mistakes. And when you respect yourself, adults and other kids usually respect you, too.

Having good self-esteem is also the ticket to making good choices about your mind and body. If you think you're important, you'll be less likely to follow the crowd if your friends are doing something dumb or dangerous. If you have good self-esteem, you know that you're smart enough to make your own decisions. You value your safety, your feelings, your health - your whole self! Good self-esteem helps you know that every part of you is worth caring for and protecting.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://kidshealth.org/kid/feeling/emotion/self_esteem.html

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know that my H would never have cheated if we hadn't decided to live apart for a little while, to suit our family problems at the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I thought later about adding that to what I wrote previously. I mean that self-esteem issues are an explanation for how and why someone can suddenly feel strongly attracted to an OP. Its no justification for acting on that strong feeling. Thats down to circumstance, ignorance, poor boundaries, faulty thinking, impulsiveness, selfishness, entitlement (stemming from repressed anger at S...), distance in the R and possibly many other things ....

In my case, my A (as for all of them) didn't help any of our R problems, but did cause a lot of pain and other, bigger R problems that we're still wrestling with. The only positive is that this wrestling will possibly help us finally deal with other problems that existed all along.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I mean that self-esteem issues are an explanation for how and why someone can suddenly feel strongly attracted to an OP. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually folks with low and high self-esteem feel strongly attracted to an OP all the time. The attraction is unavoidable; it is part of life. Attraction is not the issue.

PW, womanizer is an understatement. OMM gives womanizers a bad name. What is so unacceptable to me is S_ must have seen it but did not care. Did not want to think about it. Of all the arguments for low self-esteem this is the only one I can accept. He was such an obvious player only a woman who had no respect for herself could attach to someone like him. OTOH, perhaps a woman who had a huge and inflated self-esteem does not care either.

Don’t get your knickers in a knot over re-analyzing your H’s life. Bottom line is, WS did it. Remaining question is, will WS do it again? Perhaps the related $64K question is, how many eggshells does BS have to walk on for how long to keep WS in the safe zone? And is it worth it?

Stanley, drats, you’re making me think. I hate that. Gives me headaches. Some off the top of my head observations:

“It is possible to be a very high achiever and still have low self-esteem.”

Maybe. But maybe this could be restated as, “ It is possible to be anything and still have anything.”

“In essence good self–esteem means that the exterior matches the interior in all aspects. IN other words that is the definition of true integrity - the inner and the outer are the same.”

Um, ah, er … nah. I can’t accept this, yet. Self-esteem is a perception. A feeling. Neither right nor wrong. It just is. Not necessary for it to match reality since it does not mean anything externally. Rarely matches external perceptions for anyone, IMO. Nearest feeling would be admiration (an EN) by others and that is scored more objectively. This is a funny definition of integrity, to me. People can have really low self-esteem, be highly esteemed by others and still act with integrity. Happens all the time.

Look at me and you and most BSs here. Our self-esteem is in the toilet after DDay. But we are esteemed by others - for fighting the good fight at least. Inner and outer perceptions are not the same, yet we generally act with integrity (through the tears).

Maybe self-esteem is a vector. A quantity made up of several orthogonal elements. Some can be high and some low. If it is normalized it is a unit vector pointing just about anywhere. Maybe the same goes for susceptibility to an A. If this hypothetical vector points into the A region, a person is susceptible.

I don’t want to think any more today. I’ll think more tomorrow. With apologies to Scarlet O’Hara).

edited for typos.
T

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: Thos ]</small>

THOS- I remember you used to post in my thread when I just joined MB. I am sorry you are still having problems with your wife, and still have so many questions about why the affair happened.

I should tell you that all my life I was seen as a person of a lot of integrity, with good self respect, everyone thought that I had very good self esteem. But......my inner self did not match what others saw. I was pretending to be this perfect woman, but I had very imperfect thoughts. I thought I was not worth 3 cents. I thought I did not have anything to offer to my husband.
Since my childhood,very young girl, I was not given any positive input from my parents or sibblings. They expected me to perfect, b ut yet they gave these very bad examples to follow ,to copy. And for a while, for a long time, I thought I could be a different person, that my inner self was telling me to be, but at the end, my "legacy" won. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Still today, my parents, my sisters,and my brother think that I am a person with no faults, a proud person that would never, in a million years do what I did. Why did I do it Thos?
I think I did it because my self-esteem, my self-respect was practically non-existant.!!! I did not have an affair because I thought I was entitled to it. No, I had an affair, because even though I knew right from wrong now, I was not taught what respect is. All around me, I just saw lies, deceit, lack of respect.
And I tried very hard to be different, but I guess I was weaker than I thought I was.

Lack of respect-lack of good self esteem go hand in hand with affairs and lies!

Myrta

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's how much you value yourself and how important you think you are. It's how you see yourself and how you feel about your achievements. Self-esteem isn't bragging about how great you are. It's more like quietly knowing that you're worth a lot (priceless, in fact!). It's not about thinking you're perfect - because nobody is - but knowing that you're worthy of being loved and accepted.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thos:


Maybe I did not express myself very clear.

Regarding integrity:

It is possible to have integrity and be a person of poor character. For example a man makes 10 million dollars illegally and has no problem admitting to others the money was made illegally. This man is what he is --------- a thief. However, he has no discrepancy between his inner self and what he projects to be (the outer).

OTOH, another man made 10 million dollars illegally and now tries to pretend he earned the money legally. In this instance there is no integrity. The inner does not match what he puts up in his outer shell.

It is not a matter of perception by others------- this is all within the person. A person with integrity does not try to fool you by pretending to be something else. These folks probably have good self-esteem and if they find themselves attracted to another person they probably get a divorce and pursue the other relationship. It may be the wrong thing to do, but at least what you see is what you get.

Now, someone with low-self-esteem will often try to project a different image on the outer shell whereas the inner self may be completely different. This is the hallmark of a cheater and someone who is prone to have an affair.

If you read the above quote you will see that someone with good self-esteem does not exaggerate the inner self. If they did, then by definition they would have low self-esteem. Since the inner matches the outer they have integrity. Therefore, great self-esteem can be seen in both high and low achievers. And of course, low self-esteem can be seen in either group as well.

Another hallmark of good self-esteem is self-respect. Many of the statements your wife made suggest lack of self-respect. BTW, my wife also made some remarks during her affair that are classic examples of low self-resspect. And low self-respect and low self-esteeem go hand in hand.

Hi Myrta. It’s always nice to hear from you.

I do not know if I am having trouble with S_ or with myself. I seem to be stalled. I have assumed I have to understand the message of her A (from Torn Asunder) yet here we are, a year out from DDay2, and neither she nor I do. And all the while S_ is becoming more and more reticent about it all.

I do not ask her about clinical details any more. Have not for a long time. I no longer care which way he bent her. I have a stomach full of details. But I get nothing coherent when I ask about why, what it meant to her, what he meant to her, why it started so quickly (it took just 2 days to go to bed with him way back ten years ago) and so on. So where do I go from here?


“I thought I did not have anything to offer to my husband.”

This is ancient history to S_ but according to the best of her recollection, at the start of the A she felt she was offering me more than I was worth.


“No, I had an affair, because even though I knew right from wrong now, I was not thought what respect is. All around me, I just saw lies, deceit and lack of respect.”

Hey, I just remembered something I wanted to ask you weeks ago but forgot. Dang AD’s make me so forgetful. In a post some weeks ago you said you always enjoyed going to Mass with Stanley, even during your A. You were raised a catholic, like me, I presume. Did you receive communion during your A. Knowing the church’s teachings on the Eucharist and the Sacrament of Reconciliation, how were you able to do this over and over for years?

I ask this because S_ did the same thing and has no answer.


”Lack of respect, lack of good self-esteem go hand in hand with affairs and lies!”

Myrta, you continue to amaze me how well you cut to the chase. Lies! That is one of the missing ingredients in this discussion. What kind of self-esteem do practicing liars have? According to the SA article I refer to at the start of this thread, the liars they studied tended to have high self-esteem. When I lie about something it depends on what it is I am lying about as to whether it is to boost some part of my low self-esteem or because I feel so superior I don’t feel a need to deal with all the details of the truth. BTW, I NEVER LIE! (So, is it my low or my high self-esteem saying that?)

I do know that the more I lie the lower my self-esteem becomes because of the lies. But is it the other way around for some people?

T

THOS--No, I was not raised a catholic, we converted to catholicism, about 15 years ago.
But yes, during the affair, I did take comunnion, cleanse my soul, but I continue to do the bad thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . what a hypocrite I was!!!
But Thos, it made me feel clean and that God was not judging me. But what a contradiction !!

Practicing liars,dont have a Self Esteem! If it exists, is almost null. Thats why we can carry on being liars and cheats, is almost like I did not have a concience, when I was doing that.

I really dont know how can liars in that study be able to have high self esteem. It is not possible !!! If you are a liar, you are lying thru your teeth, how can you hold your head high and proud and have good self esteem???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It is nice to talk to you again Thos! YOu were always so sweet with me when I started to post here.

Take care

Myrta

Example--while I was having the Affair, my son and his wife were separated and she had an affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . We were talking about it, my husband and I and my older girls, and I said, with so much conviction in my voice, "She is not worthy of him anymore, he should not take her back"! I believed this while I was saying it.
While I was the affair, I completely detached myself from reality. It was like I had two personalities. It was weird!!!!!

Stanley,

I think your comment about people with low self-esteem seeming to have a totally different impression of themselves than that which they project to the world or that which others have of them is a really good observation.

H and I have a friend who has a doctorate, is an ex-world champion in his sport, also a kind and thoughtful person, and still he directly and indirectly tells good friends that he is stupid and worth nothing. His low level of self-respect has led him to be taken advantage of or taken for granted by colleagues, family and others.

Its strange, but his low self-respect often lead him to 'sabotage' himself, and put himself in situations that reinforced his view. For example, he couldn't say no to work requests, then he was often overcommitted, and then he often couldn't complete his work on time. So colleagues would become frustrated with him... and this would reinforce his view that he was useless at his job.

Maybe this seems a little off-topic, but I think its true that some FWS had (have?) at heart an opinion of themselves as low and unworthy people, then, somehow, their behaviour seemed to reinforce this view of themselves.

Again this is not meant as any kind of justification!

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe this seems a little off-topic, but I think its true that some FWS had (have?) at heart an opinion of themselves as low and unworthy people, then, somehow, their behaviour seemed to reinforce this view of themselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It must be difficult to constantly deal with the discrepancy between what’s inside and what they try to project to the outer world. It is way easier when one does not have to fake it----------- Basically, what you see is what you get.

Yes, folks with low self-esteem have a hard time saying no. That is why young 13-14 year old girls get pregnant. They think that if they don’t sleep with the BF they will get dump. In fact, I believe my wife probably had a hard time saying NO to the OM who was likely a manipulator.

SO you are correct. When a person has to constantly pretend to be something else they must have a low opinion of themselves. John Lennon, probably a more famous philosopher than Joe Cool once said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I'm a Loser
Lennon/McCartney

I’m a loser, I’m a loser,
And I’m not what I appear to be.

Of all the love I have won or have lost,
There is one love I should never have crossed.
She was a girl in a million my friend,
I should have known she would win in the end.

I’m a loser, and I lost someone who’s near to me,
I’m a loser, and I’m not what I appear to be.

Although I laugh and I act like a clown,
Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown,
My tears are falling like rain from the sky,
Is it for her or myself that I cry.

I’m a loser, and I lost someone who’s near to me,
I’m a loser, and I’m not what I appear to be.

What I have done to deserve such a fate,
I realize I have left it too late.
And so it’s true pride comes before a fall,
I’m telling you so that you won’t lose all.

I’m a loser, and I lost someone who’s near to me,
I’m a loser, and I’m not what I appear to be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And-------- for reasons that are not clear to me these folks eventually sabotage themselves to make sure their low opinion of themselves becomes a reality. In a sense they probably try to seek balance between the inner and the outer shell. In other words---- if they feel like losers they might as well act like one.

Does that make sense?

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>