</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I can’t count the number of times I have read here, and in affair books, that WSs suffer from low self-esteem.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a slightly different theory...

NOT "low" self esteem

but

"borrowed self esteem"

A sense of self dependant on the eyes of someone else looking favorably upon them.

And after a few years of marriage reality ... the WS has a damaged view of him/herself simply because they have all along borrowed their sense of how attractive, or how desiarable, or how clever, or how sexy they are FROM outside sources! And when the marriage partner is not filling that role sufficiently due to the every day this and that of life ---> in walks the great flatterer ... the OP who strokes the ego and the WS's self-esteem rises .... NOT due to personal merit or their own well-earned esteem .... but due to outside-the-self ego massage !!!

I've not yet seen the affair (romantic kind of affair) that did not have other-validated self-esteem at play somewhere in the mix.

And.... I think this is the actual loss felt during the "withdrawl" period. The REAL sense of loss is that the source of other-validated self esteem has been amputated. And the loss is the flattery, the ego stroking, and the feeling of someone else who (in the words of ooh-too-many WW's) ---> "The one person in the entire world who knew the real me, and understood me."

Bleech!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Very perceptive, Pep. I'd have to agree. But as sordid and unpalatable as it may sound, never underestimate the power of that ego stroke on someone who's desperate to have it.

I sacrificed so much to get it...my wife's trust and respect, my own integrity, and credibility as a father. But none of that mattered at the time. I NEEDED the stroke.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> never underestimate the power of that ego stroke on someone who's desperate to have it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is some ego-stroking on the boards from time to time... interesting !

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have a slightly different theory...
NOT "low" self esteem
but
"borrowed self esteem"
A sense of self dependant on the eyes of someone else looking favorably upon them.
And after a few years of marriage reality ... the WS has a damaged view of him/herself simply because they have all along borrowed their sense of how attractive, or how desiarable, or how clever, or how sexy they are FROM outside sources! And when the marriage partner is not filling that role sufficiently due to the every day this and that of life ---> in walks the great flatterer ... the OP who strokes the ego and the WS's self-esteem rises .... NOT due to personal merit or their own well-earned esteem .... but due to outside-the-self ego massage !!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing else can be add to this post, but I thought it would be nice to do "reprise" ala Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

::: never underestimate the power of that ego stroke on someone who's desperate to have it

This is the crux of the matter. OK, let's reflect on humanity, unfaithfulness and why it happens.

If you look around an airport or a mall, you will notice that the vast majority of people are average looking. Youth aside, there are barely 20% of people who are physcially very attractive. The bulk of us are very average looking - but it is left the the bulk of humanity to mate, have off spring and keep the species going. God or Evolution, has devised a chemcial mechanism to make sure that everyone, plain or handsome, has a go at pairing off (married or not). Most people know where they are on the scale of attractiveness. If you are average, at some level you know it. (and we're not talking about the real beauty that exists within - which isn't a factor in infidelity - if it was this board wouldn't exist).

So, in order to suit the average Joe Public, the process of bringing the opposite sex together has to be powerful (to attract people into the mating game, and to keep them in it).

Of the 20 or so people that I know personally who've had affairs only a small percentage, probably 3 of them are physically good looking.

I propose that those who get caught in the infidelity trap have a fundamental insecurity over their attractiveness (it might be real or it might be imagined). Given that the vast majority of people are average, and the vast majority of WSs, by statistical relationship are average - couldn't it be that their expectations of being attractive to an OP was so remote that they were caught unawares and by surprise? The power of their reaction to the OP rocked them.

REmember that the endorphines that flood the brain, when feeling excited by the attention of OP are very powerful. They literally chase away rational thought and bask the victim is a sea of euphoria. Even at this stage, the WS doesn't intend to cheat. They just want to enjoy the good feelings they are experienceing. They don't see any harm in basking in the glory a little longer (anyone ever been sunburned?) It's easy to miscalculate how long you can to stay .....

I think the vulnerability is not specific to self esteem - either high or low. I think it's the lack of belief in one's attractiveness that makes them vulnerable to an A. Vulnerable people are unused to this kind of attention and the feeling of pleasure they get from it - they allow themselves to believe it's truly deserved and adds to their feel good arrow soaring off the board.

I also suspect that conflict avoiders and people pleasers are particularly at risk. The A process of dealing with an attentive OP, is very compelling. In A's the potential WS wants to please the OP who is paying them so much positive attention. They want to reward them. We all think we are pretty good, but when someone unexpectedly comes along and says I think you are pretty good too, it's like wow, this person knows how good I am - and I thought no one knew. This is when the lying begins. The WS pretends to be what the OP thinks of them. They want to live up to the OP's opinion of them. So they lie by omission or by inference - they take on a new persona to the OP and try to sculp themselves into what they think will please the OP. If you are a people pleaser, then you love positive attention from anyone. Praise is everything. But what happens when one specific person is giving you loads of one on one attention? It's overwhelming. It's heart warming and it's thrilling.

Thos, my H didn't know his OP either. But he would have been thrilled thinking that a lovely young shapely woman was attracted to him. He had the evidence in front of him. 'Face value' reinforced it. Lovely young woman had written him a 'come on' letter. If he'd thought about it more carefully, he would have realised she wasn't really attracted to him (25 yrs age difference) - but he was already swimming in a sea of endorphines that made him feel great to have been singled out by this attractive young woman who he believed had seen his specialness and validated his feelings of self importance. How was he meant to say no - and return to being ordinary?

Never have you seen a person change so much so quickly over someone he didn't even know. He knew me for 35 yrs and I counted for nothing in comparison to this huge attack on his emotions.

Me? I've had lots of opportunities to cheat. I considered it would be lowering myself to do so. I didn't want to give this part of myself to someone else. Generally I have low self esteem, and I feel insignificant that I haven't had a career for example. But I have always believed myself attractive in looks and in personality. Obviously it was a terrible blow to discover that neither of those things protects one from a spouse who is vulnerable to flattery.

Your wife probably got into her A because of unexpected flattery. It's a lot to do with the wrong place, at the wrong time IMHO.


AN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wife probably got into her A because of unexpected flattery. It's a lot to do with the wrong place, at the wrong time IMHO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why people cheat?

I used to think it was a strong attraction for the opposite sex and the thrill to experience the NEW aspect of the OP.

I certainly have attraction for the opposite sex and I believe it would be a thrill to experience the NEW. However, I have not cheated.

I never thought about the fact that dating an attractive woman was supposed to boost my ego. I dated an attractive woman because I actually liked her. It was all about attraction and whatever God put inside of us to make us replicate.

However, I always had strong boundaries. If a woman was taken, then she was off limits. In fact, not being free and available was a turn-off. I still recognized that a married woman was or could be amazingly beautiful, but I subconsciously took her off the roster.

Whenever, I had a chance to cheat I immediately realized it did not feel natural to betray and to lie. To be able to betray and lie requires a lot of energy----- negative energy. I simply don’t have negative energy.

Cheaters cheat because they don’t have a superego. Those who don’t cheat have a superego.

So Freud is alive and well.


As for my wife:

She is one of the beautiful people! Everyone agrees------ she is very attractive. Her OM is well below average. Yes, he is not even in the average looks group and actually described himself as the “gordito feo"(ugly fatso) aka “the beast”.

His affair emails were 90% devoted to praise my wife. OM also assumed the role of monitoring and elevating my wife’s self-esteem. This was evident in just about every email I intercepted. When OM called after D-day his main concern was my wife's self-esteem.

WHY WOULD A VERY ATTRACTIVE WOMAN NEED A VERY UNATTRACTIVE MAN TO BOOST HER SELF ESTEEM? I really don’t know.

I believe there must have been some of that attraction that God put in us to make us replicate and perhaps this is independent of looks.

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

Hi All
I want to talk about attraction. I don't think attraction has to be physical. It can be attraction because of leadership qualities, humor, intelligence or any one of a number of personal qualities. Maybe just empathy if someone is feeling down.
I find that the more "in love' I feel wth my H the more attractive he is physically.

If I am really upset and angry with him then he doesn't look so hot. His big beautiful blue eyes become little beady orbs.

So that powerful ego stroke can be for any number of things and looks do not have to be part of it.

I mean look at the online relationships that develop without any knowledge of the person's looks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi All
I want to talk about attraction. I don't think attraction has to be physical. It can be attraction because of leadership qualities, humor, intelligence or any one of a number of personal qualities. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahh!!!!

Me = a man
You = a woman


Many years ago there was a survey made in many countries of the planet about what men and women find attractive in the opposite sex.

This is what men rated high:

1. Waist to hip ratio of 0.70
2. Youth

Obviously the above has to do with looks.

Women did not rate looks, they liked:

1. Intelligence, character, integrity
2. Ability to provide


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So that powerful ego stroke can be for any number of things and looks do not have to be part of it.
I mean look at the online relationships that develop without any knowledge of the person's looks.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife’s OM used the Internet to romance her. However, he knew what she looked like. My wife knew OM was ugly, but as you said his smooth words and constant adulation made him attractive.

Women are less hung-up on looks----- a well-known fact. BTW, my wife only went into permanent NC when she learned OM had major flaws in his character. As far as I know he is still an ugly dude.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men and women also have extremely different criteria when it comes to mate selection. The old ideas of women looking for stability and security are still very much a part of our society, even with the new found independence enjoyed by woman today who are more than capable of providing for themselves. Men on the other hand are looking for physical beauty and desirable qualities. Men tend to rate the physical above all other points of criteria. And these stereotypical approaches to attraction are not just in America, but seemingly occur across the board and into many different cultures. In fact it can be this unchecked partnership between physical beauty and a fat pocketbook that can lead to the most dreadful pairings and relationships based on attraction alone. (Norman, 1998) In a study presented by Jan Norman in her article, The Evolutionary Theory of Attraction, the cross-cultural implications of attraction are astoundingly similar: Of 10,000 individuals from 37 different cultures and six continents, the results appear amazing similar to those gathered from US college students. In all cultures studied, females rated men with greater earning potential higher on the mate choice scale. Men in all 37 cultures consistently valued physical attractiveness in potential mates significantly more than did their female counterparts in the study. While women preferred males slightly older than themselves, men state that their ideal mate would be younger than themselves. Although the possibility cannot be dismissed, such extensive global similarities are unlikely to be the result of learned patterns. It seems likely that such natural preferences have evolved to give our- hunter-gatherer ancestors a reproductive advantage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sexual Selection
A Scientific American Library paperback
James L. Gould (Princeton U.)
Carol Grant Gould

Preface
1. The Paradox of Sex
2. What Is Sex?
3. Why Sex?
4. The Discovery of Sexual Selection
5. Nonsocial Species
6. Territory and Hierarchies
7. Female Choice
8. Stratagems and Deceit
9. Human Mate Selection
Selected Readings
Sources of Illustrations
Index

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

***These are not descriptions of WSs with low self-esteem. After everything WS has done, to feel these things and to act this way is a conceit in the extreme.***

I am sooooo with you on this. My husband behaved exactly this way. He was fully capable of lying to me day after day while he helped himself with both hands to the female buffet spread out at work, and never suffered the slightest twinge of consience about it. He thought he was king of the world with girlfriends at work, strippers on the road, and an uncomplaining wife at home. Gee, why didn't everybody do this? All you have to do is lie and manipulate! They just weren't as smart as he was!

I also remember the study you brought up. My H is the perfect example of a guy who honestly thinks he is entitled to all he can get and does not see why this should be a problem for anybody else - and if it is, there's something wrong with *them.*

I definitely agree that low self-esteem -- really, low self-respect -- is not usually the problem in people who cheat in their marriages. It's a warped and over-inflated sense of entitlement mixed with a good dose of good old-fashioned selfishness.

This also explains why, except in a clear-cut "exit" affair, most WS try everything to keep both their marriage and their affair. They aren't "confused" and they aren't trying to "choose" -- they honestly feel that they are so special and different that they are entitled to both, and they don't see why they shouldn't have it.

Until OP stop settling for this situation, and until spouses refuse to tolerate it, it will go on and on and on. That's why it *does* matter why people cheat -- if we better understand why it happens, maybe the rest of us will have a better chance of protecting ourselves and can recognize the red flags before it's too late.
Mulan

Stan-ley, The study you quoted fits my H's OW exactly. However my H was 25 yrs older than her, so I presume he appeared to ahve all the qualities she looked for in a mate - though having him 25 yrs older was pushing the envelop a bit for a 26 yo. Shows how well true the study was - defys even age barriers - and yes they were mixed culture as well.

Our situation is a classic example of your study's findings.

btw what is Fraud's superego?

AN

Actually, the study which included people from 37 countries and six continents was looking at attraction between men and women outside an affair. Attraction within an affair may very well be somewhat similar, but I really doubt that. Particularly from the side of women.

Men look for beauty and youth whether they are single or married. In other words we are shallow.

Woman look for other qualities such as integrity, intelligence, good provider, ability to hold a job, ect.

However a married woman may not be looking at those factors. She may simply want someone to fill a specific need even if that man has inferior qualities (less integrity, less intelligence, ect).

In affair the key ingredient is opportunity, availability, and the ability to be deceitful. In the study these qualities are not rated.

Freud thought that the mind had a conscious aspect, “the ego“ and an animal aspect “the id“. Then somewhere in the back of the conscience was the “superego”. The superego makes us behave in an honorable manner and if we have a good superego we tend to have good ethics. Those with poor superegos tend to be unethical. Unfortunately according to Freud the “superego” could only be developed in childhood.

http://www.wilderdom.com/personality/L8-4StructureMindIdEgoSuperego.html

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Men look for beauty and youth whether they are single or married. In other words we are shallow.

Woman look for other qualities such as integrity, intelligence, good provider, ability to hold a job, ect.

However a married woman may not be looking at those factors. She may simply want someone to fill a specific need even if that man has inferior qualities (less integrity, less intelligence, ect).

In affair the key ingredient is opportunity, availability, and the ability to be deceitful. In the study these qualities are not rated</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, this is quite true. In fact the one of the reasons I knew I couldn't really have a "real" life with FOM was he wasn't someone I would want to raise my children and was not in any position to be a good provider. On top of all that I really did love my H, he just made himself so unavailable to me during that time and I was stuck home with young children. Not a good reason I know but there it is.

My H on the other hand had A's with women that are younger and more attractive than me and made him feel attractive. I guess I wasn't good at filling the admiration EN.

Good thread, very interesting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I propose that those who get caught in the infidelity trap have a fundamental insecurity over their attractiveness (it might be real or it might be imagined)... they were caught unawares and by surprise... The power of their reaction to the OP rocked them.

Remember that the endorphines that flood the brain, when feeling excited by the attention of OP are very powerful... the WS doesn't intend to cheat. They just want to enjoy the good feelings they are experiencing. They don't see any harm in basking in the glory a little longer (anyone ever been sunburned?) It's easy to miscalculate how long you can to stay ..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN, I think this is spot on for many (most?) WS. The insecurity might be also about other things, not only physical attractiveness... things like intelligence, being interesting and funny, having worthwhile ideas and points of view, being worthy of respect and care.

Previously, in my R, my H sometimes unknowingly (and unintentionally?) gave me signals, often through 'jokes' that I didn't find funny, that he thought I was boring, lacking energy or drive, not very smart, and also that he didn't respect my values (he thought I was trying too hard to be "good" when I expressed a lot of concern about other's feelings). I know that this damaged my self-esteem at the time, as well as creating some distance between us. If I brought it up, back then, he wouldn't validate my feelings, but just tell me it was a 'joke', so basically I should get over it.

I think this is why OM, seeming to find me interesting, attractive, funny, intelligent, etc, had such a surprisingly powerful effect on me at the time. I didn't see the danger since I also thought that I was 'strong', and wouldn't act in a way that I would later have cause to regret.

::::Attraction within an affair may very well be somewhat similar, but I really doubt that. Particularly from the side of women.

Stan-ley, I really like your input! I saw a small study where men selected from pictures of women that they'd like to have sex with as opposed to women they'd prefer for a wife. I gather the two were quite different. However the reality has to fall somewhere between the two. Circumstances often dictate that we be flexible on both counts.

::::Men look for beauty and youth whether they are single or married. In other words we are shallow.

Not you apparently. You already stated that you are not the betraying kind. Just out of interest, do you think you feel differently now? I'm asking you to dig into your sub conscious. Do you feel that the contract you agreed upon with your wife has been invalidated - let me add, if you were to find yourself in a very attractive situation with opportunity and desire would your commitment to fidelity be as strong as it was prior to your w's A? (guess I'm wondering whether your id, ego and superego are a bit messed up now?)

The other thing is that no one can predict how they will respond to someone very attractive to them, who they haven't met yet. How many WS here will tell you that they were totally committed to fidelity up to the moment they met OP? So guess my question to you is somewhat pointless.

::::Woman look for other qualities such as integrity, intelligence, good provider, ability to hold a job, ect.

One of my friends left a very wealthy good looking H for a total idiot. This has always been a huge mystery to me - I know the rich H had his faults but he was like the Dalhi Lama in comparison to the bloke she jumped ship for. I don't think the OM had held down one job for more than six months, his entire life!

::::However a married woman may not be looking at those factors. She may simply want someone to fill a specific need even if that man has inferior qualities (less integrity, less intelligence, ect).

ARe they LOOKING FOR anything? Or are they accidents waiting to happen? Smur's comments were interesting. She needed validation from OP that she wasn't nothing as a woman. I'm sure I'd have cheated in her situation too. I abhor men who make snide remarks about their wives. The stupid thing is that my H used to hang off every word I said. He made me feel interesting, attractive and loved. (until he cheated)

::::::In affair the key ingredient is opportunity, availability, and the ability to be deceitful. In the study these qualities are not rated.

I heard it was opportunity and desire. I gather the deceitfulness can be added even by people who've previously been very honest.

::::Freud thought that the mind had a conscious aspect, “the ego“ and an animal aspect “the id“. Then somewhere in the back of the conscience was the “superego”. The superego makes us behave in an honorable manner and if we have a good superego we tend to have good ethics. Those with poor superegos tend to be unethical. Unfortunately according to Freud the “superego” could only be developed in childhood.

I looked at the web site. Thanks for adding this to the discussion. I really cannot answer why your wife would have an A with an ugly guy. But I found it interesting that when she became aware of his flaws she could get rid of him.

Smur, Guess you're H now thinks twice at using sarcasm on you? This is almost the only reason I could justify an A (though, I prolly would have stopped it the first time it happened). Men who do this are very hard to cure of it. Do you think they have an inferiority complex and belittling their wives makes them feel better?

AN

I think my H's OW was only interested in my H for money. He was a sting. But I suspect she started to comprehend that, cheating aside, he was a really nice person. He truly was dozy to get involved with her but he tried to remain his nice self to her - but he was totally sucked in by her big warm smile and confident personality and great looks. I suspect his airhead OW actually started to like him a little after she started the sting. Opposite of your wife's situation. Apparently she started confessing that she was a very bad person to him and I think it was because she realised she was messing up his life and he really didn't deserve it.

Stanley, I have not had a chance to read your link yet. Where I work the firewall prevents access to MB. So I only log in from home. And then only every other day or so. Probably a good thing, else I would not get much work done.

Some of the traits you list correlate well with my W’s A. Older man, good looking, rich, exciting (ex fighter pilot), etc. On the other hand, there are exceptions. He has no integrity, many A’s, a real player; he talked a good game but in reality treated her much worse than she admitted at first. The things she complained about me while in the fog he actually did in spades to her all the time. (I still occasionally see a transfer of anything good I did with or for her to him and anything bad he did onto me. It’s like she can’t separate us at times.)

Something else to consider re my W’s A is the social environment. The corporate culture in this company is very A friendly. Most executives are having them. It’s part of the executive compensation package. W felt entitled, perhaps even pressured, by her peers I think.

My W has very high self-esteem in most things. One does not rise to a directorship of a Fortune 500 company by being a self-depreciating wallflower. Nor by overcompensation in weak areas of ones personality. She is real. She has more than a lot on the ball. She has the ability to slam-dunk.

No, the main ingredient according to her was a feeling of frustration with her whole life. She felt at times as if she had outgrown me. It is a lot like Low Orbit wrote. She was increasingly depressed and angry she didn’t have more in her life already. A happy home-life, motherhood, love of a doting H and a beautiful child, a high-ranking position at work was not enough. Even her morals, ethics and upbringing came into question for her. She felt they were stifling her and not applicable to someone in control of their own destiny. She was ripe for a new life.

Well, IMO based on what we have talked about so far.

Like Smur writes I, unintentionally, gave my W the perception I did not value her accomplishments. I still don’t know how I did this but it’s what she says. I know I tend to lecture sometimes. But I just thought, since she is so intelligent, she was like the engineers and scientists I work with – play devils advocate, throw out hypotheses, discuss things until the best alternative rises to the top. She says now these discussions we used to have (I no longer do this with her, haven’t since DDay1 six years ago now) made her feel as though she was a little girl who needed to be told what to do. Hardly, she usually got her way anyway – I just thought she liked exploring alternatives.

Physical, intellectual (OMM said he mainly was intellectually attracted to her, if one were to believe him, and I don’t recommend it) and emotional attraction was all there. And it went on for so long attachment became very strong. I think even though he dumped her and blamed everything on her to his wife and friends and me, if they were to accidentally run into each other there could be a restart of the A.

This is why I need to know why. To assess the future probabilities.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Guess you're H now thinks twice at using sarcasm on you? ... Do you think they have an inferiority complex and belittling their wives makes them feel better? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi all,

To be fair to H, I don't think he really understood the effect it had on me. At other times he did say nice things in public both about me and about how he felt about me, so I guess he thought I 'should have' known that he valued me.

I tried to tell him I sometimes felt hurt or insulted by his comments or 'jokes', but since he has, in this respect at least, a very healthy self-esteem, I think he didn't 'get' how important it was for me. If it were him, he could have laughed off this kind of comment, since he would have known it wasn't really true. Since he generally saw me as successful, I guess he must have thought I saw myself the same way. But for me, it reinforced the low opinion I had of myself.

Thos, well done for recognising your W's feelings and trying to change. I think this is the hardest thing, changing parts of ourselves that seem innocent to us but actually hurt our S. I can very much understand your need to know why. I hope your W can also come to understand, for her own sake.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 03:52 AM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

Gee you darn guys have got me going again. I had given up on understanding why and decided it was because he could and it was fun and nobody would get hurt.

Now I am back to analyzing his whole life and mine and the XOW!

Thos - one little thing stood out in your post.
Some of the traits you list correlate well with my W’s A. Older man, good looking, rich, exciting (ex fighter pilot),

I heard a young air force pilot in Alaska talk about the different groups in the armed forces. He described the fighter pilots as "living on the edge" types and as womanizers.
That may partially explain your wife's XOP.

Stan-ley: I don't remember much child psychology anymore but it seems to me that someone may be a high achiever because they are searching for ego-stroking because of an insufficiently developed super-ego from inadequate bonding in early-childhood.

So to apply this to my husband -intelligent high achiever - born to young mother with rather poor natural, nurturing qualities while her husband was overseas during WW2, and unable to provide support. He did not see his son until many months after he was born.

I write this and then I think No way! He was just pursued aggressively by a sexy young thing and he could not resist. He thought I would not know so I could not be hurt. It was just sex and admiration, not love. He loved me.

So I am back to boundaries. I did not establish and communicate my boundaries well enough.
I have to keep him on a short leash or in the back yard with a high fence just like my dog. Either that or get him fixed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
PW

:::I write this and then I think No way! He was just pursued aggressively by a sexy young thing and he could not resist. He thought I would not know so I could not be hurt. It was just sex and admiration, not love. He loved me.

PW, I'm afraid that you are right. Same for my H. I know that my H would never have cheated if we hadn't decided to live apart for a little while, to suit our family problems at the time. Then one day he received a letter from a very pretty, well built 26 yo native girl (indonesian), who asked him to teach her English and to get to know her better. (she finished the letter by saying it would be a secret between them) I've got a copy of the letter. He was just so flattered and attracted to her physical appearence. He'd never been the type to come on to women, but since one had approached him, and was there for the taking..... it got the better of him.

I'm not so sure he loved me too much when he decided to follow up on the letter - but he loved me the minute I discovered the A. He dropped her like a hot cake. It's actually quite flattering for both you and me to see that our H's chose us over younger women. My H's OW had large breasts too - his favorite. (which I only had when I was pregnant!)

Why does it have to be so very distressing for the BS though?

AN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My W has very high self-esteem in most things. One does not rise to a directorship of a Fortune 500 company by being a self-depreciating wallflower. Nor by overcompensation in weak areas of ones personality. She is real. She has more than a lot on the ball. She has the ability to slam-dunk.
No, the main ingredient according to her was a feeling of frustration with her whole life. She felt at times as if she had outgrown me. It is a lot like Low Orbit wrote. She was increasingly depressed and angry she didn’t have more in her life already. A happy home-life, motherhood, love of a doting H and a beautiful child, a high-ranking position at work was not enough. Even her morals, ethics and upbringing came into question for her. She felt they were stifling her and not applicable to someone in control of their own destiny. She was ripe for a new life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is possible to be a very high achiever and still have low self-esteem.

In essence good self –esteem means that the exterior matches the interior in all aspects. IN other words that is the definition of true integrity----------------- the inner and the outer are the same. When she feels like this:

She was increasingly depressed and angry she didn’t have more in her life already.

She is on her way to have low self-esteem and she may do something illicit to get what she wants.

You said: Even her morals, ethics and upbringing came into question for her. She felt they were stifling her and not applicable to someone in control of their own destiny.

This is the hallmark of low self-esteem. She kept drifting and the disparity between her inner self and the outer appearance kept growing. There was no integrity and hence low self-esteem.

As I said achievements mean nothing. You can be a house painter and be very happy and fulfilled with your job or you can be an Ivy League lawyer who feels like your wife. Obviously your wife did not view her life as a success. I think that would be low self-esteem!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Story on Self-Esteem


You can't touch it, but it affects how you feel. You can't see it, but it's there when you look at yourself in the mirror. You can't hear it, but it's there every time you talk about yourself. What is this important but mysterious thing? It's your self-esteem!

What Is Self-Esteem?
To understand self-esteem, it helps to break the term into two words. Let's take a look at the word esteem first. Esteem (say: ess-teem) is a fancy word for thinking that someone or something is important or valuing that person or thing. For example, if you really admire your friend's dad because he volunteers at the fire department, it means you hold him in high esteem. And the special trophy for the most valuable player on a team is often called an esteemed trophy. This means the trophy stands for an important accomplishment.

And self means, well, yourself! So when you put the two words together, it's easier to see what self-esteem is. It's how much you value yourself and how important you think you are. It's how you see yourself and how you feel about your achievements. Self-esteem isn't bragging about how great you are. It's more like quietly knowing that you're worth a lot (priceless, in fact!). It's not about thinking you're perfect - because nobody is - but knowing that you're worthy of being loved and accepted..

Why Self-Esteem Is Important
Self-esteem isn't like a cool pair of sneakers that you'd love to have but don't have to have. A kid needs to have self-esteem.

Good self-esteem is important because it helps you to hold your head high and feel proud of yourself and what you can do. It gives you the courage to try new things and the power to believe in yourself. It lets you respect yourself, even when you make mistakes. And when you respect yourself, adults and other kids usually respect you, too.

Having good self-esteem is also the ticket to making good choices about your mind and body. If you think you're important, you'll be less likely to follow the crowd if your friends are doing something dumb or dangerous. If you have good self-esteem, you know that you're smart enough to make your own decisions. You value your safety, your feelings, your health - your whole self! Good self-esteem helps you know that every part of you is worth caring for and protecting.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">http://kidshealth.org/kid/feeling/emotion/self_esteem.html

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know that my H would never have cheated if we hadn't decided to live apart for a little while, to suit our family problems at the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I thought later about adding that to what I wrote previously. I mean that self-esteem issues are an explanation for how and why someone can suddenly feel strongly attracted to an OP. Its no justification for acting on that strong feeling. Thats down to circumstance, ignorance, poor boundaries, faulty thinking, impulsiveness, selfishness, entitlement (stemming from repressed anger at S...), distance in the R and possibly many other things ....

In my case, my A (as for all of them) didn't help any of our R problems, but did cause a lot of pain and other, bigger R problems that we're still wrestling with. The only positive is that this wrestling will possibly help us finally deal with other problems that existed all along.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>