% of MBer that salvage their M - Marriage Builders® Forums

Andrew post this ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TA:
I saw a Statistic here today where only 6 out of 100 (6%) people who follow MB principles stay intact.<hr /></blockquote>This is only for recovered, recovering & Dv'ed MBers.

I know there are many variable skewd <sp> the result since many MBers doesn't post no more since they are busy with their fullfilin M. There are many DoItYourSelfMBers that didn't follow plan A/B properly, but this is create more reality of the situation.

-rh-

Have you posted links to your poll on Recovery, D/D & EN to garner more voters?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
 Have you posted links to your poll on Recovery, D/D & EN to garner more voters? <hr /></blockquote>I just did ... However I did one oopsh, read below.

To all that are still struggeling, I am sorry I force people to vote before viewing and I can't change that condition now. Please refrain your urge to look ... you are skewing the result.

I will publish the result at the end of the voting period.

I was only talking about couples who actually attend a MB "SEMINAR."

SH said most people do NOT salvage their marriage because one on the spouses is NOT willing to do the Homework.

SH said 100% of the marriages stay intact when both spouses do ALL the homework. Steve said he has yet to refund any money for people who have done all the homework. Those who don't get NO refund, period.

[ February 11, 2005, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: TA ]

I didn't not attend a seminar - X refused, and X did not follow any MB principles, and we are now divorced.
This may skew your results.

I convinced friends of mine to attend a seminar, and to date they've done no homework. They will stay together, they were just looking to improve a good foundation.
I'm hoping that explains some results.

Why does no one do any Homework?

What's the big deal?

SH said the same thing, no one wants to do the Homework.

What the hell is involved?

Andrew

Thanks TA,

I am not looking for the one that go to seminars. I was looking at the people who ends up here and using MB. I beleive it is higher than 50% of saving even the M is in trouble already. I could see the poll temporary results.

Thanks newly,
I am looking for stats for people who post here and use MB, at least one of you and you are counted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I do believe to go to seminars with FWS, not with WS. It is futile if it is not down right dangerous teaching WS to use MB with OP. Harley warns people who go to this seminars and do nothing b/c the expectation is raisen but no result thus more frustrations.

This poll is just another one of those poll <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I don't take it seriously.

-rh-

[ January 12, 2005, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

If this is true about the 50%, I would be so Pumped up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope we get some honest results with this poll.

Thanks for posting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TA:
What's the big deal?<hr /></blockquote>Andrew,
I beleive is walking through to indentify ENs/LBs ... plus personal history & financial. Actually it is about fillin the questionairs and reviewed by coaches. Coaching couples to do 4 gifts of love.

Just put yourself into the mind of WS ... and being ask to fillin personal history, sex life and etc ... !.

This is my bias, don't go now until your WW become FWW and save your $ to pay SH's counseling !.

-rh-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TA:
 If this is true about the 50%, I would be so Pumped up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope we get some honest results with this poll.

Thanks for posting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>So far we have 13 voters ... 11 yes, 2 no ... it is 85%. We have to wait 'till Feb when this poll is closed.

-rh-

^bump^ 37 votes 26 yes 11 no ... so 70% for now.

This is an interesting idea, but I am not sure what conclusions you can make from the information. There is obviously a selection bias here, so honestly the % you get is not going to be "valid". Either way, I think it was a good idea, and at least food for thought. I can probably predict the final figures will be well over 50%.

[ January 12, 2005, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

If you want to see the results of a survey already conducted of 1083 people whose spouses had As, check out:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/pdf/help-sample.pdf

This survey was done in as controlled conditions as possible.

76% of these spouses were still married and living together after the A.

LM,

I just want to throw it out there, people could take any conclusion they want <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . My first gut feeling would be >>50% too but I am not so sure no more.

1. Majority of people come here w/ trouble M and infidelity in M.
2. Majority of people don't know how to do plan A.
3. Majority of people don't go to plan B on time.

From small sample of SFBayAreaMBers, we have only 2 yes and 8 no ... excluding ones that don't even bother to use MB and drop off.

We will see when we got some peoples from Dv/DV'ng and Recovery Board ... they usually don't post much.

-rh-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by smur:
 If you want to see the results of a survey already conducted of 1083 people whose spouses had As, check out:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/pdf/help-sample.pdf

This survey was done in as controlled conditions as possible.

76% of these spouses were still married and living together after the A. <hr /></blockquote>INteresting to say the least. What it may mean in the end, is that Marriage Builders (or any other relationship recovery tool) is not likely to effect the % of divorced marriages. I would be willing to surmise that CHILDREN are a MAJOR....MAJOR (95% IMO) factor in deciding to divorce (or not) after infidelity. No suprise here. In the study in the link, is it any suprise that 77% of the total couples with infidelity had children, and that 76% of total couples are still married? Perhaps it is a site like this that can help a marriage become "liveable" or "tolerable" when "staying together for the kids" is the end driving marriage saving factor. One thing is clear though....IN GENERAL, INFIDELITY alone usually does not end a marriage.

[ January 12, 2005, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by smur:
76% of these spouses were still married and living together after the A. <hr /></blockquote>We know that fact, A don't end M ... lost hopes does. I am off reading your link before I could comment any further.

Thanks,
-rh-

LM, why would I stay in my marriage for adult children? 24 and 27.

MB saved our marriage, pure and simple.

Oh, and we love each other, that saved our marriage too.

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
 LM, why would I stay in my marriage for adult children? 24 and 27.

MB saved our marriage, pure and simple.

Oh, and we love each other, that saved our marriage too.

Jen <hr /></blockquote>Jen...congratulations for saving the marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by smur:
 If you want to see the results of a survey already conducted of 1083 people whose spouses had As, check out:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/pdf/help-sample.pdf

This survey was done in as controlled conditions as possible.

76% of these spouses were still married and living together after the A. <hr /></blockquote>INteresting to say the least. What it may mean in the end, is that Marriage Builders (or any other relationship recovery tool) is not likely to effect the % of divorced marriages. I would be willing to surmise that CHILDREN are a MAJOR....MAJOR (95% IMO) factor in deciding to divorce (or not) after infidelity. No suprise here. In the study in the link, is it any suprise that 77% of the total couples with infidelity had children, and that 76% of total couples are still married? Perhaps it is a site like this that can help a marriage become "liveable" or "tolerable" when "staying together for the kids" is the end driving marriage saving factor. One thing is clear though....IN GENERAL, INFIDELITY alone usually does not end a marriage. <hr /></blockquote>LM,

Maybe it doesn't up the odds but it does allow each sane person to attain personal recovery better than most. Not all most. This isn't a proven science. Too many variables but one can see how the support here has helped many. Even tamed a few obstinate ones. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So it is not a matter of if MB helps, it is a matter of when MB helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

'Never say never.'

L.

[ January 13, 2005, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

duplicate post.

[ January 13, 2005, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

RedHat.....my only comment is "look at the source".....always a great place to start!!
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I saw a Statistic here today where only 6 out of 100 (6%) people who follow MB principles stay intact. <hr /></blockquote>My guess would be much like the poll shows right now....I would guess that about 60% save their M after an A and even higher when BOTH partys are actively giving it their best effort.

Of course.......I am the ultimate optomist!!
Atruheart

[ January 13, 2005, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: atruheart ]

LM,
I do believe children are a MAJOR factor in keeping a M intact, but that does not mean these M are tolerated or just livable. IMHO, the majority of M which stay intact b/c of the children are in fact SAVED b/c of the children. What I mean by SAVED is, M are not not tolerated or livable, but there is actally LOVE and Reconciliation.

I believe my children have saved (are saving) my M. If it weren't for them, I and maybe FWW would have left long ago. The boys kept me hanging on, and I am glad they did.

Also, for this poll, what constitutes a saved M. Is it time, feelings, etc or a combination of things.

I would like to vote, but I am not sure if enough time has passed.

I find it hard to believe that 76% of marriages stay intact. If true, then I am truly motivated by these numbers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm assuming that these people are NOT using MB principles so I would assume that ours should be even higher.

I have two kids 11 & 15 so this gives me even more hope. Also the fact that we have been together 28 years and my wife knows I truly love her. I also don't smoke, drink, do drugs, or have any bad vices. I was not meeting her EN's so I still have hope.

I pray daily for Gods help, I hope he hears my prayers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Andrew

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I would be willing to surmise that CHILDREN are a MAJOR....MAJOR (95% IMO) factor in deciding to divorce (or not) after infidelity. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe, maybe not.

In my case...nope. I have grown children as well, and they aren't with my H. Just stayed for love I guess.

[ January 13, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I would be willing to surmise that CHILDREN are a MAJOR....MAJOR (95% IMO) factor in deciding to divorce (or not) after infidelity. <hr /></blockquote>Maybe, maybe not.

In my case...nope. I have grown children as well, and they aren't with my H. Just stayed for love I guess. <hr /></blockquote>BIJ:

Congratulations on your recovered marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

I find it interesting that you phrased the question as to 'salvaging' a marriage. To me that would not be enough. Nor would 'saving' it. The important point here is how many actually recovered their marriages and came out on the other side with it being real. Not just where they were sans affair, but with a truly new and stronger committment to the relationship.

I would be afraid to guess how many have 'saved' their marriage only to find that things have gone back to the way they were; the only difference being no A in progress.

My question is : how many people actually have a recovery plan in place, follow it and end up with a better relationship because of it?

Victoria,

I believe that RH meant good recovery. Salvaging is the 1st step, solid recovery and happy marriage the ending result. For many this is still a work in process. So as not to discourage or discount their efforts, I would say he is looking for those headed in that direction.

JMHO, of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Sorry, Late reply. This is Live from Las Vegas ... no, I am not gettin' M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> , I am watching 2 D's Skating Competition.

atruheart - No, I am not expecting 6% I expect 100% if both follows MB properly it is guranteed by W. Harley itself and no one fails !. I share that believe ... give me a lady that I am capable of fulfillin her's ENs and let me gift her 4 gifts of love ... in 6 months she would fall in-love w/ me. Of course I have to be willing to do it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . The keys is willing, capable & letting.

victoria farrar - I hear you and I am not statiscian <sp>. Actually in the poll's choice I stated for both recovering and recovered not just get rid of OP (salvage M from an A). We both know if they use MB to recovering their M, in-love would be created.

Orchid - thanks sis <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

So far ... 60 votes, 75% (45) yes and 25% (15) no. Interesting ...not far from dear peggy's research.

-rh-

[ January 13, 2005, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]

My marriage is sooooo much better than it was pre-A thanks to MB.

It all comes down to choices.

We chose to love each other when neither of us felt love feelings.

We put that choice to action by practicing MB principles. For my husband, the WS, that meant making his life transparent to me, to regain my trust. Those choices are why we are OK today 4 years later.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> We put that choice to action by practicing MB principles. For my husband, the WS, that meant making his life transparent to me, to regain my trust. Those choices are why we are OK today 4 years later. <hr /></blockquote>Awesome post Bramble...

we need more of your kind 'round here !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

^bump^ 70 votes 77%(54) yes, 23%(16) no

-rh-

Looks like we are all ahead of those national polls. I had to say we are in recovery also! 4 years this month. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just have to thank God first!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gotta love you all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

[ January 15, 2005, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Miss M ]

I followed MB and H followed me. Recovered. Happy and living life to the fullest again...and not taking him for granted anymore.

Miss M & new jersey,

Thanks for dropping by contibute to this thread. It gives a lot og hope and weight for newbie to follow MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

76 votes - 78%(59) Yes, 22%(17) No.

-rh-

Another recovering M here. Coming up on a year of recovery & so far so good w/a few ups & downs. Gotta hate those triggers but when I think of it long-term, I know we'll be okay. Thank you MB!

Love in Christ,
Y

MB principles are great in general, and excellent individually IF BOTH spouses follow them...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Belonging to Nowhere:
 MB principles are great in general, and excellent individually IF BOTH spouses follow them... <hr /></blockquote>Yes ... but it is one of the most effective tool when only one spouse is willing.

The key is building enough LU$ to create a in-love feeling ... thus for normal person they would reprociate. The problem is when there is OP such that WS rejects/guards his/hers ENs.

-rh-

[ January 16, 2005, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

I just reread this thread....

And i have to say that I am really bothered by the implication that because a couple decided to stay together "for the kids" that its not a real recovery.

Love is a choice.

The reason WHY you choose to love your spouse (ie recover your marriage), kids or otherwise doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the recovery is a good one.

Especially when children didn't choose their parents, they didn't choose to live through the disaster of an affair, their best interest is absolutely an entirely valid reason for recovering the marriage.

yes, "the children" is one of those foggy things that the WS uses when they are having an affair. The WS uses "the children" as a reason to cake walk.

That fact doesn't make "the children" any less of a real and valid reason to recover the marriage. "The children" does not make the recovery false...because...I'll say it again:

Love is a choice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BrambleRose:
Love is a choice. <hr /></blockquote>Every one has a personal reason(s) for trying to save M and yes ... this have nothing do with how succesful you are in saving/recovering your M. It is just a reason.

The sucess of salvaging your M is largely depends on how good you are implementing plan A/B.

The success of recovering your M is largely depends on how good/willing both of you implementing 4 rules of recovery.

81 votes, 77%(62) Yes, 23%(19) No

-rh-

^bump^

85 votes 74%(63) Yes, 26%(22) No

^bump^

86 votes 73%(63) Yes, 27%(23) No

marked myself down as a yes.

Still married, living separately but dating my wife, doing familiy vacaction together and generally enjoying ourselves. And planning to move together again in spring.

Can't say it was an easy ride though, but well worth it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Nick123,

Thanks for stopping by and yes, you should be counted as recovering <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I am personally would not be able to do plan B that long. Congrat !.

-rh-

88 votes 73%(64) Yes, 27%(24) No.

I am an ABSOLUTE YES. This is probably explained in all my recent posts. I unfortunately find myself getting frustrated by folks posting on the forum who don't follow the principles because I am such a believer in them.

I know that is unfair in me because I remember the days when I did't want to listen either.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ January 20, 2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

mimi1254,

Yup, everyone has hers/his own time table.

-rh-

95 votes 74%(70) Yes, 26%(25) No

Hi Redhat,

I just voted. This thread gave me a lot to think about. I am approaching the one year anniv. of D-day. I feel a little sad and I shared that with my FWH which I never could have done before MB.

I wanted very much to save our M and be with H, and MB showed me how to do that. If it had not been for MB, I would have given up by now and reverted back to behavior I knew was wrong, but didn't know what to do instead.

We are working on recovery now...it has been about two and half months....it will take alot of work on both of our parts, but we are both trying...to take one another into consideration instead of taking one another for granted.

MB has helped me to become attractive to H again and has taught me to become his favorite playtime companion. MB helped us to be on the right road to improve our odds for recovery. Hope this informal survey and the comments help others. Thanks, RH, for your post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SureSurvivor,

Thanks for dropping by. Yes, I put up this unscientific poll just to give some glimse that in surviving an affair, BS/WS is better of implementing MB than not.

-rh-

98 votes 73%(72) Yes, 27%(26) No

^bump^ this boad is too fast for me.

100 votes 74%(74) Yes, 26%(26) No

101 votes 74%(75) Yes, 26%(26) No

[ January 27, 2005, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

I voted no, but that is misleading.

If I had *properly* followed MB, and gone to plan B instead of plan Throw In The Towel, it probably would have worked. WxW and I someday still may get back together, but it is totally up to her now because I let my love bank go negative instead of going to plan B in time. I have set up an account for her here. I doubt she will use it, unfortunately, and I don't much care anymore.

She still doesn't understand why I would have a problem with her being in contact with OM. Go figure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sad Tiger:
 I voted no, but that is misleading.<hr /></blockquote>Beleive it or not I want you to vote no. Most of the people unable to do plan A or go to plan B on time. Basically this is a simple poll if you are able to salvage M. I know there are a lot of variables, dependent and independent variables ... this is not a scientific poll <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I voted no ... I was coached under SH during plan A/B. MB is not a gurantee, I just want to point out that BS/WS is better off using MB to salvage their M.

-rh-

103 votes. 74%(76) Yes, 26%(27) No

106 votes. 75%(79) Yes, 25%(27) No ^bump^

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just want to point out that BS/WS is better off using MB to salvage their M.<hr /></blockquote>Even if the M fails, then the BS/WS who has used MB knows they have truly done everything they could to make it work. They aren't consumed by "what if I had..." type questions.

Also, regardless of whether the M succeeds or fails, the BS/WS grows as a person and learns a lot about how to be a better partner.

Oh, yes, I still have just as many "what if" questions. "What if" I had told him to go jump in a lake - what motivation did he have to come back when he knew I would be there. "What if" I had enthusiastically pursued divorce, would I have ended up with enough child support to keep us out of poverty? What if I had agreed to divorce on the condition that he let me move out of state, so I wouldn't have to pay two grand a month for a tiny house?

MB has absolutely NOT made me a better person in any way. Through reading here, I have become much more aware of the extent of betrayal, and of how ridiculous it is to trust anyone. It may have made me a wiser person, but far more cynical.

Well, I can't vote yet, but it would seem I'm headed towards the no column.

I feel like a failure. Either I've not done MB correctly (failure) or I have and it doesn't seem I've been able to save the marriage (again failure)

So while I can't vote, at least you know how I feel, like a failure.

TB

Either I've not done MB correctly (failure) or I have and it doesn't seem I've been able to save the marriage (again failure)
Just because your marriage is not saved does NOT mean you are a Marriage Builders failure.

You can do a very, very successful Plan A/Plan B and still end up divorced. (That doesn't mean you have to be "happy" with the results though <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Sorry,

I get to decide if I failed or not, and if we end up divorced, I categorize it as a failure. My DD has the second best home environment, and I wasn't able to become more attractive to WW than the OM.

Don't try to cheer me up, divorce = failure in my ruleset.

TB

PS, why are you telling me how to feel?

I get to decide if I failed or not, and if we end up divorced, I categorize it as a failure.
Yes it will be a failure of the marriage but not (necessarily) a failure of MB. And Dr. & Steve Harley both have said this.

I wasn't able to become more attractive to WW than the OM.
So? This has nothing to do with MB.

divorce = failure in my ruleset.
If you were to complete medical school, get a degree and never got a job as a doctor, this does mean you failed school.

PS, why are you telling me how to feel?
Uh, where did you read that I was telling you how you should feel?
I didn't even suggest that.
I'm just telling you what the facts are.

[ January 28, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

What did you do wrong in Plan A or Plan B (to have failed doing Plan A/B correctly)?

[ January 28, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Chris,

When you try to convince me that divorce isn't a failure is one way you are telling me how to feel.

I've exposed, I've done my best to eliminate LB's, I've plan A'ed my butt off, and with the exception of dialog about exchanging, YD, I've done a pretty good plan B.

But not good enough to show WW that marriage with me is more attractive than her relationship with MM (or maybe a FMM now, I dunno.)

Maybe I will be a success, but I don't feel it right now, and I certainly don't see it either.

So I feel like MB failed me or I failed at MB. I feel like a failure no matter how you slice it.

So please don't try to convince me that I shouldn't categorize this as a failure if I end up divorced. It's how I feel about the situation.

TB

What did I fail to do at plan A?

Well, I probably still don't know all my LB's and I've had to guess at WW's emotional needs since she wouldn't fill out a questionare.

SH put me on the "trial and error" plan for meeting emotional needs. His advice was to try different things and see what sort of reaction they got. Everything I tried was rejected, and I ran out of ideas.

Exposure was pretty good, WW's parents know, our pastor knows, her co-workers (who I think helped out with the affair anyway) know. I also traded notes with OM's wife, so she also knew.

Plan B, we don't talk about anything but YD. Plan B has been great for her, she doesn't feel any pressure because I'm trying to meet her needs.

I wrote her that I loved her, married her for life, but could not maintain a relationship with her while she was with the OM, and to not contact me about anything other than YD. I had to give her my state's standard CS, which with my salary is almost enough for her to live without working, albeit not like a queen.

So it seems to me plan B was what she wanted and just makes it easier for her to continue the divorce.

So I've failed, she doesn't miss me, or my support, and after 16 months, the A is still going on, not to mention the divorce has been ongoing for at least 11-12 months.

So I've failed to win her back using MB principles, therefore, I feel like I've failed her, YD and myself.

TB

I'm kind of surprise at some of these posts.

Let's do a reality check...if the marriage is destined to fail...for whatever reason...MB...an act of Congress, wish upon wish, hope beyond hope...isn't going to save it.

It's nearly impossible to salvage a marriage if both partners aren truly interested in doing so.

I could have repeated every Plan in the book, if my H didn't want the M... he wouldn't be here...period.

That being said..I'm still going with ..YES...MB has given me a stronger better M. I've learned TONS...and will never be blindsided again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 I'm kind of surprise at some of these posts.

Let's do a reality check...if the marriage is destined to fail...for whatever reason...MB...an act of Congress, wish upon wish, hope beyond hope...isn't going to save it.

It's nearly impossible to salvage a marriage if both partners aren truly interested in doing so.

I could have repeated every Plan in the book, if my H didn't want the M... he wouldn't be here...period.

That being said..I'm still going with ..YES...MB has given me a stronger better M. I've learned TONS...and will never be blindsided again. <hr /></blockquote>So are you saying I should feel like a failure at my goal of being more appealing to WW than OM, thus giving her some reason to want to join me in building a better marriage.

Somehow, her lack of desire to work on the marriage really doesn't make me feel any better. In fact, it makes me feel worse.

TB

When you try to convince me that divorce isn't a failure
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I never tried to convince you of that at all.
In fact, I did write, "Yes it will be a failure of the marriage but not (necessarily) a failure of MB."

But not good enough to show WW that marriage with me is more attractive than her relationship with MM
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Where did you read this about MB principles? That is NOT what Plan A/B is supposed to do.
In fact, I believe it's somewhere here that is exactly what you are NOT supposed to try & do.

Maybe I will be a success, but I don't feel it right now, and I certainly don't see it either.
I didn't say you should feel like a success or failure. Just that you may or may not be a success.
A guy runs a race, comes across the finish line first and then immediately gets hit by a car, was his race a success or a failure?

We are talking about two things here.
1 - Your marriage.
2 - Your use of MB principles.
You keep interchanging them when they are different things.

So I've failed to win her back using MB principles, therefore, I feel like I've failed her, YD and myself.
Which is it?
1 - You failed her, YD and yourself
2 - You failed to use MB properly?
Yes, you could have failed at both BUT just because you end up divorced does not mean you failed at using MB principles.

Nowhere on this site is there any kind of a guarantee that the marriage will survive even if you do MB principles 100% correctly (successfully).

Let me ask.
Would you ever refer anybody to Marriage Builders to help save their marriage?
Why/why not?

[ January 28, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />So are you saying I should feel like a failure at my goal of being more appealing to WW than OM,<hr /></blockquote>Why was this your goal? Where did you get this from?

[ January 28, 2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
 When you try to convince me that divorce isn't a failure
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I never tried to convince you of that at all.
In fact, I did write, "Yes it will be a failure of the marriage but not (necessarily) a failure of MB."

<hr /></blockquote>Well, I applied MB principles and if the marriage failed, the MB failed to save my marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:


But not good enough to show WW that marriage with me is more attractive than her relationship with MM
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Where did you read this about MB principles? That is NOT what Plan A/B is supposed to do.
In fact, I believe it's somewhere here that is exactly what you are NOT supposed to try & do.

<hr /></blockquote>That seems to go counter with what SH told me, he said the goal is to make her doubt her decision to date the OM and to present me and building the marriage as more attractive than leaving it for OM.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:

Maybe I will be a success, but I don't feel it right now, and I certainly don't see it either.
I didn't say you should feel like a success or failure. Just that you may or may not be a success.

<hr /></blockquote>Well, I applied MB and it failed then, are you happy? Why are you picking nits here?
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:


We are talking about two things here.
1 - Your marriage.
2 - Your use of MB principles.
You keep interchanging them when they are different things.

<hr /></blockquote>Nope, they are one in the same, I applied MB and it has not saved my marriage, nor do I feel I've lost my love for WW.

Call it what you will MB failed me or I failed at MB, it hasn't worked for me as of yet.

Now, we are not yet divorced, so it could be a big success. But it doesn't appear to be successful at this time.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:


So I've failed to win her back using MB principles, therefore, I feel like I've failed her, YD and myself.
Which is it?
1 - You failed her, YD and yourself
2 - You failed to use MB properly?
Yes, you could have failed at both BUT just because you end up divorced does not mean you failed at using MB principles.
<hr /></blockquote>Yes it does. Either I was unable to do MB properly or MB didn't work for me. Either way, it failed for me. If the princples are too difficult to impliment, then they have no possibility of success.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:

Nowhere on this site is there any kind of a guarantee that the marriage will survive even if you do MB principles 100% correctly (successfully).

<hr /></blockquote>I never said it did, the question is how many have been successful. I'm saying it doesn't seem to work for me and my marriage.

I didn't say I expected 100% success rate, but it still seems to be failing me.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:


Let me ask.
Would you ever refer anybody to Marriage Builders to help save their marriage?
Why/why not? <hr /></blockquote>No, because it didn't work for me. I spent a lot of money with SH, on the books, etc. So today, I WOULD NOT recommend MB or counselling the SH to anyone.

TB

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
 Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />So are you saying I should feel like a failure at my goal of being more appealing to WW than OM,<hr /></blockquote>Why was this your goal? Where did you get this from? <hr /></blockquote>See above, I got it from SH.

Besides, isn't that the goal of meeting your S's EN as well as eliminating LB's from your behavior?

LB's destroy love, they make you less attractive (looking at the holistic person) so to eliminate them make your more attractive.

The goal of meeting your S's emotional needs is to provide an attractive alternative of having the OM meet her EN's

So when I say become more attractive than OM, I mean more than just PA, I mean the entire package.

TB

[ January 28, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

If one partner doesn't want to save the marriage or has given up and shut down your success rate is 0%. Face the facts some people just throw in the towel.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MarkNY:
 If one partner doesn't want to save the marriage or has given up and shut down your success rate is 0%. Face the facts some people just throw in the towel. <hr /></blockquote>Agreed, and my attempts to use MB principles to entice such a partner to leave the OM and rebuild the marriage have failed.

So MB didn't work for me.

That still doesn't mean I did it 100% correct, it just means my attempt at using MB failed, so I cannot in good faith recommend it given my experience.

TB

A divorce is not (necessarily) a failure at using MB. (whether you think it is or not. Some people think all Steelers fans are idiots, but that doesn't (necessarily) mean they are.)

Some people will still feel like crap when this stuff doesn't help their marriage.

Maybe we are just playing semantics here.
According to you, if someone uses MB properly and they divorce, then MB is a failure, correct?

"MB failed" is an incomplete sentence.
"MB failed to save my marriage" is a complete sentence.

Well, I applied MB principles and if the marriage failed, the MB failed to save my marriage.
Okay, I'll buy that "MB failed to save (your) marriage."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
We are talking about two things here.
1 - Your marriage.
2 - Your use of MB principles.
You keep interchanging them when they are different things.<hr /></blockquote>Nope, they are one in the same,
Huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> They are the same thing?
How about a garden is your marriage and a bucket of water is MB principles. They go together but they are NOT the same thing.

So today, I WOULD NOT recommend MB or counselling the SH to anyone.
Did you learn anything useful?

Actually, I believe a Plan A is to make yourself more attractive than the OP. Our MC said the same, she drew diagrams on a whiteboard. One was my H's lovebank which at that stage was pretty empty and one was the OM's lovebank which was full. She told my H, you have to make your lovebank overtake the OM's lovebank - which he did with stellar results.

Plan B would also have worked on me. If my H had left it to the OM to fill all my needs while at the same time not filling any, but leaving me with the lasting impression of how much he loved me, cared for me, cared for our marriage, there is no way the OM would have been able to fill my needs.

Just my 2c from a FWW who is in a totally recovered marriage.

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's nearly impossible to salvage a marriage if both partners aren truly interested in doing so. <hr /></blockquote>And if both partners are truly interested in salvaging the marriage, they can, with or without MB.

You can't have it both ways - MB can not take credit for marriages saved while claiming it still "worked" when the marriage ended in divorce.

I would also not recommend MB to anyone who was interested in saving his or her marriage. Much of it is not harmful, but often pretty obvious - it is not rocket science that it is a good idea to spend time with your spouse for instance. There are some repercussions of Plan A and Plan B that I believe are truly harmful, not only to the prospect of saving the marriage but also to the self-esteem and financial well-being of the BS. In retrospect, I suspect I would have been better off had I never stumbled upon this site 6 years ago.

[ January 28, 2005, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Nellie2 ]

Nellie, did you recover your marriage without MB guidance ? Or did strict adherence to its principles make things worse for you ?

Always interesting to hear differing opinions.

Chris,

This site is Marriage Builders, right?

So if my marriage ends up in divorce, then from MY perspective, MB failed.

So in my situation the failure of my marriage = the failure of MB principles.

They are one in the same.

I never said MB doesn't work for others, and I agree that folks should get many perspectives before choosing a course of action.

But it seems MB failed me and my marriage.

Now to be fair, did WW and I both do damage to it? Yeah, so perhaps it would be better to say that MB could not fix the damage done in our marriage.

Either way, it's still a failure for me.

TB

ps, you asked me if I learned anything, I've learned a lot, but mostly from other MB'ers here. SH told me a lot of vague things to do, but not enough to help me change my behaviors or to understand what my WW needed. Personally, I find most books and counsellors not very helpful. For example, My IC said when you find yourself in a situation where you are getting angry or in an argument, that you do what you do when you are driving, you look to where you want to go, so you picture a situation where you are not fighting, etc.

Well that's fine if you can realize what you are doing and get control of yourself, but how do you do that? How do you change 39 years of behavior so rapidly?

No one could ever answer that question. Heck, I still learn things about how people percieve what I say, and how they see me so differently than I see myself.

I was speaking with a friend about the Bible last night and she said I was tiring to talk to because I was so logical and methodical about what I said and believed. While she knew I wasn't trying to educate her or change her mind, she said she still felt that way.

Never got anything from SH to help me with that, so maybe my plan A didn't work because WW felt the same way.

WW said in one phone conversation that when we discussed something, she felt she couldn't be herself because my logic was so strong that she always felt wrong for having a different view or opinion.

Wow, I never said she was wrong, yet she felt that way. There was nothing I could find in MB to address that.

How do you protect someone from a mis-perception. Just because she felt intimidated, that in no way meant I was trying to intimidate her. Heck, until she said that, I had no way of even knowing she felt that way.

Nothing I found her addressed that.

Sorry, my ps is now longer than my original post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

tb

[ January 29, 2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
.... SH told me a lot of vague things to do, but not enough to help me change my behaviors or to understand what my WW needed.<hr /></blockquote>Just curious, what ethnic background are you ?. I am Asian when I go to doctor I want the expert tell me what is wrong with me and what to do about it. However the field of psychology is "White man middle class - Euro centric". You are on your own to make a decision ... don't ever expect a therapist to tell you exactly what to do. Another reason is law suit.

-rh-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />WW said in one phone conversation that when we discussed something, she felt she couldn't be herself because my logic was so strong that she always felt wrong for having a different view or opinion.

Wow, I never said she was wrong, yet she felt that way. There was nothing I could find in MB to address that.

How do you protect someone from a mis-perception. Just because she felt intimidated, that in no way meant I was trying to intimidate her. Heck, until she said that, I had no way of even knowing she felt that way.
<hr /></blockquote>This is so common I'm amazed you didn't find anything to address it here. For 30 years I agreed with everything my H thought and said because I thought if I disagreed or had my own opinion he wouldn't "like" me any more. He was not in any way controlling, it was just the way I felt.

When it came up in MC he was amazed I felt that way. Our MC said to him "what would you have done if Jenny had disagreed with you." He said "I would have just thought she had her opinion and would have been fine with it."

It's classic conflict avoidance (on my part) and poor communication.

If you'd have asked anyone on this board (at the time this happened) you would have heard it from loads of people and probably been given wonderful advice.

I'm such an advocate of the MB principles, probably because without them and the people on this board, we would be divorced.

I've heard so many people say that even if their marriages do fail they have the tools to communicate better in new relationships and they'll address problems when they're tiny problems not mountains.

Jen

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />WW said in one phone conversation that when we discussed something, she felt she couldn't be herself because my logic was so strong that she always felt wrong for having a different view or opinion.

Wow, I never said she was wrong, yet she felt that way. There was nothing I could find in MB to address that.

How do you protect someone from a mis-perception. Just because she felt intimidated, that in no way meant I was trying to intimidate her. Heck, until she said that, I had no way of even knowing she felt that way.
<hr /></blockquote>This is so common I'm amazed you didn't find anything to address it here. For 30 years I agreed with everything my H thought and said because I thought if I disagreed or had my own opinion he wouldn't "like" me any more. He was not in any way controlling, it was just the way I felt.

When it came up in MC he was amazed I felt that way. Our MC said to him "what would you have done if Jenny had disagreed with you." He said "I would have just thought she had her opinion and would have been fine with it."

It's classic conflict avoidance (on my part) and poor communication.

If you'd have asked anyone on this board (at the time this happened) you would have heard it from loads of people and probably been given wonderful advice.

I'm such an advocate of the MB principles, probably because without them and the people on this board, we would be divorced.

I've heard so many people say that even if their marriages do fail they have the tools to communicate better in new relationships and they'll address problems when they're tiny problems not mountains.

Jen <hr /></blockquote>I think it may have worked if WW might have actually wanted to go to counselling. But since she was so against anything I was for except for a divorce that I really got no information on how to use this information.

She was (and still is) in the affair, and the only contact between us is to exchange YD.

I was given nothing to address such poor, and in my opinion unfounded image that my WW painted me with.

She too used the terms controlling when describing me yet your husband and I are probably on the same sheet of music, she wasn't wrong, just different.

Yet she FELT wrong.

How do you change behavior when you feel the other person is FEELING something because of what's inside them as much if not more than what you are doing?

I didn't find anything in MB that helped me address this. My WW felt, maybe still feels inferior to me. I mentioned to her a while back after she felt that I didn't love her or accept her that after she told me of her background, how she had two children out of wedlock before she met me, put one up for adoption, etc and I said to her that was all in the past, we can only live today, that I accepted her for who she is and wanted to be. I didn't understand how she could feel I didn't accept her.

I NEVER (and I use this word on purpose) brought up her past, never judged her about it, I accepted it. Yet she still felt unaccepted by me.

Perhaps she has issues to deal with.

MB never gave me anything to deal with this.

I felt like I was battling a perception rather than reality and for an ESTJ thinker like me, I believe it was an impossible fight.

I'm not without faults, I'm rigid and like to be right. We both withdrew in the relationship. I spent a lot of time on the internet and she would resent that. So when she called me on it, I started going to her first when I came home from work and when she essentially pushed me away, I'd go to message boards about my cars, etc.

I don't spend near the time on the net I once did. But even that potential LB nixed doesn't help.

So tell me, how do you convince WW that she is wrong about how I view her. Because she has also said that she feels that I'm always right. She sarcastically called me the Mr Perfect jSC, always have to be right.

Yet if I tell her she is wrong about how she feels, that I seldom feel perfect and often wonder what to do next, she will feel like I'm putting her down.

So what's a MB'er supposed to do?

TB

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by redhat:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
.... SH told me a lot of vague things to do, but not enough to help me change my behaviors or to understand what my WW needed.<hr /></blockquote>Just curious, what ethnic background are you ?. I am Asian when I go to doctor I want the expert tell me what is wrong with me and what to do about it. However the field of psychology is "White man middle class - Euro centric". You are on your own to make a decision ... don't ever expect a therapist to tell you exactly what to do. Another reason is law suit.

-rh- <hr /></blockquote>I'm about as white bread protestant as you can get. A mix of English and German. Paternal Grandparents (whom I've never met) were immigrants from Germany.

I think what is more salient is that I'm an ESTJ and I don't take a dump without a plan, LOL.

TB

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by javaSansContour:
I think what is more salient is that I'm an ESTJ and I don't take a dump without a plan, LOL.
<hr /></blockquote>Is that why MB failed to save mine to ? LOL!. I am ESTJ too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yet if I tell her she is wrong about how she feels, that I seldom feel perfect and often wonder what to do next, she will feel like I'm putting her down.
<hr /></blockquote>I'm not flinging anything, please don't take this wrong..I'm just offering up a woman's point of view.

My H was in the same boat as you, trying to convince me I was "wrong" about how I felt.

It took me FOREVER...and he still slips frequently...my FEELINGS are NEVER wrong...and neither are HIS, or YOURS or your W's.

A feeling, is an emotion, it's not to be judged right or wrong.

Try this.. and you'll see a different reaction...
trying agreeing with her..and VALIDATING her feeling. I know this sounds ridiculous..but it's the truth. Women seek validation for their feelings...with validation, and acceptance, they are more prone to look at the feeling from a different perspective because she's wasting less time trying to convince someone this is how she feels.

Acknowledge the feeling, and ask her what you can do to help her work through it. Ask her if there is something specific, sometimes it's not the words, it's the tone.

I know this all sounds like dribble..and it may very well be just that..dribble. I just wanted to tell you what a MBer would do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Yet if I tell her she is wrong about how she feels, that I seldom feel perfect and often wonder what to do next, she will feel like I'm putting her down.
<hr /></blockquote>I'm not flinging anything, please don't take this wrong..I'm just offering up a woman's point of view.

My H was in the same boat as you, trying to convince me I was "wrong" about how I felt.

It took me FOREVER...and he still slips frequently...my FEELINGS are NEVER wrong...and neither are HIS, or YOURS or your W's.

A feeling, is an emotion, it's not to be judged right or wrong.

Try this.. and you'll see a different reaction...
trying agreeing with her..and VALIDATING her feeling. I know this sounds ridiculous..but it's the truth. Women seek validation for their feelings...with validation, and acceptance, they are more prone to look at the feeling from a different perspective because she's wasting less time trying to convince someone this is how she feels.

Acknowledge the feeling, and ask her what you can do to help her work through it. Ask her if there is something specific, sometimes it's not the words, it's the tone.

I know this all sounds like dribble..and it may very well be just that..dribble. I just wanted to tell you what a MBer would do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>So you are saying she should feel right about having an affair, about breaking up our family and the family of the other guy.

This is where I have a really hard time with the feelings are right thing.

She says, it was a mistake to get married.

So I validate, it must have felt awful to not feel loved.

I guess you don't understand, I do validate when I get a chance to speak with her.

I called her three times this week to verify two pickups of YD. I called Monday night and left a message, asking her to confirm the pickup.

No return call.

I called again Tuesday morning, again left a voice mail, no return call.

I called Thursday night confirming the Friday pickup, left voice mail. Again no return call.

So what is there to validate, she doesn't say a darn thing.

I'd be happy to listen to validate, to work with her. Just gotta get her off the phone with the OM and even looking my way.

So what does MB have to solve this issue?

TB

Bob,

No, my marriage did not recover. I firmly believe that following MB principles made it less likely to recover, and in addition resulted in my children and I being left in poverty.

Well I will tell you that MB helped save my M. But even if I ended up divorced I know that it was because my W failed the M not me or the MB principles. MB principles helped make me a better person.

I was a better person for either my W or the woman would have been the next Mrs. S&C.

So I'll say it again; if I ended up getting a D, then it was my W that failed the M.

Bless you.

S&C

Bob,

No, my marriage did not recover. I firmly believe that following MB principles made it less likely to recover, and in addition resulted in my children and I being left in poverty.

Nellie, I am sorry to hear that ? If it is not too traumatic to you, would it be possible to detail the ways in which MB helped finally end your M and cause financial hardship in your lives?

"negative" testomony can sometimes teach more than 'positive' words.

I completely understand if you cannot or will not talk about this though.

All blessings to you and your children.

I have admittedly not read all of this thread...

Bottom line is this: Principles don't make things work; people do.

The reason for why a marriage works or doesn't is the two people involved. Period.

HOWEVER, using the MB principles as a guide instead of continually running around without direction or hope or support in the dark gives one a whole better percentage of having that marriage work, dont you think?

"Give a man a fish and you have him eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for the rest of his life."

MB is a tool--a proven tool. But who are the users of this tool? The users are ultimately responsible for reading the instructions.

Nellie...in regards to your particualr sit...I am so sorry things didn't work out...really I am. I think what Bob asks is legitimate, but certainly I think most of us would understand if you didn't want to answer.

Blessings,
LINY

Nellie,
There are some repercussions of Plan A and Plan B that I believe are truly harmful, not only to the prospect of saving the marriage but also to the self-esteem and financial well-being of the BS.
What is harmful in these plans?

In retrospect, I suspect I would have been better off had I never stumbled upon this site 6 years ago.
And here you are, 6 years later posting...
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ? Why?

java,
How do you protect someone from a mis-perception.
You can't. The only thing you can do is make clear what your meanings/intentions are and follow through with it (say what you mean, mean what you say).
How they choose to interpret or deal with this is up to them.
I don't think MB is perfect.
I don't think all marriages can/should be saved (using MB or anything else for that matter).

If the other person is not willing or able to do anything to save the marriage, the marriage will not be saved. Using MB, you cannot force them to do anything.
And this is one thing MB is designed for. To help you to change yourself (for the better, not simply to get your spouse back) and to help you realize that you cannot change how someone acts.

Yet if I tell her she is wrong about how she feels
Why is it okay for you to tell her how or what she feels is right or wrong?
Feelings are not right or wrong. They are good or bad or indifferent. You can feel good or bad about something because of information you have which may be correct or incorrect. But the feelings themselves are not right or wrong.

[ January 31, 2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

^bump^

119 Votes 76%(91) Yes, 24%(28) No

Chris,

I sometimes wonder why myself. You and I came to this board around the same time - as I recall, your wife left within a few days of when my husband did. I sometimes wonder why you are still here, as well, not that I have a problem with it, or that it's any of my business. One reason I am still here is that occasionally I have the opportunity to warn someone to protect their financial interests, which is often forgetten while trying to restore your marriage.

Bob,

I don't mind discussing my story, not that it is terribly interesting. My nephew was murdered, our eldest daughter left for college, we had to sell our business because it wasn't making enough to support us, my H sank into a rather deep depression, followed by an affair. Out of the blue, a few hours after we had offered on a new house, he announced he wanted a divorce. The next night he deserted me and our 6 kids, and moved into the OW's house (unbeknownst to me).

I don't know if I could have done it, but I would have been far better off financially had I divorced him immediately. I could have had a financial settlement that allowed us to live reasonably. I probably should have agreed to a divorce on the condition that he let us move out of state, so that we could actually afford to live. He managed to lose his job and stay unemployed for two and a half years, and since then has been earning a pittance.

Letting him know that I still loved him, and treating him decently, just allowed him to walk all over me. "Plan B" certainly did not make me lose my love for him - contrary to what MB claims, love is permanent.

It became obvious to me during the last six years that when your spouse leaves for an OP, by far the most important thing is to make sure you get the best financial settlement upfront you can, because guaranteed he will manage to leave his family destitute. Money may not be everything, but it is extremely important when you don't have any. Not having enough money to live on has ruined my children's childhoods, made it impossible for them to get the quality of college educations that they should have, and left them as well as I tens of thousands of dollars in debt. I have no idea how I am going to pay for college every year until 2018 when my youngest will graduate, even with the substantial need-based and merit scholarships that they qualify for.

Infidelity, at least on the part of men, is ALL about money and/or power. My H left when he found a rich woman to support him (he, according to his court documents, pays NO rent or utilities, and drives a car that is worth ten of mine), while rich men typically find younger, beautiful women. My H admitted that it was largely about money, that he couldn't separate his feelings about not having enough money from his feelings about me. After he left he blamed me for not having gone back to work sooner, and staying home to raise our six children, including a developmentally delayed toddler, instead. He had never mentioned previously that he wanted me to go back to work.

Lastly, reading here over a period of six years has made me realize that infidelity and desertion are not the aberrations I had thought they were. Over and over I read of cases where the WS physically attacks the BS, completely deserts the children like Chris' wife did, or steals huge sums of money from the family and spends it on the OW, drugs or alcohol. In many of these cases the BS is completely blindsided, the WS having previously been a good, caring father or mother.

It has become all too obvious that no one can be trusted as far as you can throw him/her. I suspect I would be a lot happier if I had never realized how much evil there was in the world - I will never forget how, right around the time of 9/11 my husband chose to demonstrate his love for his kids by announcing as they were driving home from dinner that he had married the OW, and then proceeding to completely ignore their tears. Or how he told them that they could not visit him if they "disturbed the atmosphere" in the OW's house. Or how he has called one child on her birthday exactly once in 6 years, and the others not at all on theirs. Up until the day he left, I would have sworn he loved his children with all his heart. It really doesn't help to read that other spouses are just as bad, and sometimes even worse. Nor does it help to realize that in almost every case when people remarry, even when no affair is involved, the new spouse would really prefer if the children were to disappear.

[ February 01, 2005, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Nellie2 ]

Nellie
Thanks for taking the time to share your story. Its a very sad one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You said Letting him know that I still loved him, and treating him decently allowed your WH to walk all over you and take financial advantage of you.

That is sad and I can imagine the betrayal hurt very much. But I cannot see how MB caused that. If it does not cause you hurt, could you expand a little please ?

I have not counselled with Steve or Penny, I have only effected 'plan A' and exposure as studied in Harley's books and helped out MASSIVELY by some lifers on here ( Chris included!).

Plan A involved (in part) my behaving a supportive and reasonable way to my wife at a time when my instinct screamed for me to be UNreasonable but Plan A did not prevent me from protecting my own finances from further plundering.

How did MB expose you to the horrible actions of your WXH ?

Although it is true that continued to let him know that I loved him and treated him decently before I even heard of Marriage Builders, both of those are part of Plan A. The only way I could have protected my finances would have been to have immediately gone to "Plan D," which is hardly what MB recommends. Among the recommendations of MB are that if one spouse wants the divorce, you let him file. Although I am not sure that I could have filed for divorce with or without MB, the sensible thing would have been to follow the advice of all those people out there who recommend the "throw the bum out" method of dealing with infidelity.

"Plan B," on the other hand, makes no one happy but him. He is fine with having virtually no contact, even though that is not the best for the children. Counselors, school personnel, and even his lawyer have let him no repeatedly that he should discuss the children and occasionally other issues with me, but he has refused. Finally last year his lawyer made him call me on a couple of occasions, but in general he prefers to spend money on a lawyer rather than communicate with anyone. Even his lawyer thinks he is throwing his money away - at least that is what she has told me. I think Plan B is horrible for children and should be discouraged. I have not seen any evidence personally that would indicate that it causes you to lose your love. I believe that oneof the fundamental concepts of MB, that love can be "lost" is incorrect.

Nellie, you said both of those are part of Plan A. I am not sure they are.

Meeting ENs, avoiding LBs while being non judgmental and supportive aren't really the same as saying ILY and treating someone decently.

I am truly not trying to be mean, Nellie, just trying to understand.

Is there any reason you could share why you didn't protect your finances during your plan A ?

Maybe it was easier for me as I had control of our bank accounts and was the main earner.

Thanks for any more information you feel able to give.

I think avoiding LB's is a big part of treating him decently.

In retrospect, there are a number of things I should have done differently, many of which would have been huge LBs. Instead of taking our tax refund and applying it toward his credit card, as we had planned before he left, I should have applied it toward mine. I should have used our joint credit card to pay for household expenses and groceries rather than mine. If I had accepted his initial offer, he would have been paying almost 3.5 times as much child support as he does now. Unfortunately, he managed to lose his job before we went to court and consequently that made it easier for him to convince the magistrate that he couldn't afford more than a pittance. It is harder to get child support lowered than it is to have it set low to begin with. I should have tried to get him to agree to let us move to a cheaper state, and then remained a SAHM.

I should have hired a shark lawyer and tried to get all the equity in the house, especially since it was my money that provided our original downpayment anyway, and since it was his business that caused us to lose close to $100 thousand dollars.He convinced me to spend money on the business based on false information - he didn't bother to tell me that he wouldn't hesitate to desert his family as soon as he found a better financial deal.

In short, everything decision I made should have been based solely on what would result in the best financial outcome, and to h*** with whether it was an LB or even whether it was "fair."

^bump^ 124 Votes 77%(96) Yes 23%(28) No

9 more days before this poll is closed

bump

^bump^ 127 Votes 77%(98) Yes 23%(29) No

Last chance .... ^bump^ 128 Votes 77%(99) Yes 23%(29) No

Last chance.

I can't Vote yet. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I'm happy for all of you who did save your Marriage.

Adultery Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Hi all,

Here is the final result

130 voted, 78% (101) yes, 22% (29) no.

Regardless how you want to read this as ... one thing is clear that MB gives a 'lil better edge than w/o it.

Thanks all for participating and thanks for reading this.

May this simple poll bring a glimse of hope to you that are still fighting for your M. If you voted, yes, I hope you have a sucessful recovering your M and transformed it to fulfilin M. If you voted, no, I hope you are at peace with yourself and moving on w/ the opportunity that has given to us.

-rh-

[ February 12, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]