I am worried about losing all self-respect if I take my WW back

Marriage Builders

Hello all -

Quick update -
I have still not left California - getting all my stuff out of the house was a much bigger job than I realized - I guess I was used to having my WW help me move - she would pack, I would load. So I am all packed up, all the stuff that I am taking to TX is in my trailer, and I am sleeping at a motel right now.

Some last minute business has kept me in town until now, but that will be concluded today. Since my WW is watching the animals, I was thinking about going skiing for a couple of days before leaving town - I bought a season pass, and have used it all of 2 times....

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So, to the question. My WW and I have spent quuite a bit of time together recently, and she has repeatedly told me she doesn't want to lose me forever. She still wants to keep her OM until after her trip to Central America - he has major sway over whether she gets to even go at all, then dump him quickly. She knows the moment I leave for TX, I am cutting all contact. She hates that idea, but is still standing firm about not breaking it off until June. I just feel that she values her career above our marriage.

I feel confident, come June, she will end the A. BUT, since she has not earned her way back, how can I maintain any self-respect? I sometimes wonder if I will just be meek and let her set the timetable and the terms of her return. I don't want a D, but I don't see how I can be happy with her returning on HER terms.

The only thing that I have a little hope in is that Plan B will change her mind on NC with the OM.

The other thing that amazes me is how absolutely confident she is that we will survive this. She has little fear of losing me. She says, "We have made it through so much, we will make it through this..." Fog? Me filling her EN's too much? Me being too available for her?

I will not be by the computer (no more cable connection for me - I stop by Kinko's when I can), so I will respond as I am able to....

TM

TM,
I hate to be the one to tell you this but you really need to get yourself out of town fast! Then get yourself in to Plan B and stay there, accepting no communication from your WW at all!

You desperately need this separate, if for no other reason then to give yourself an objective and realistic perspective about this woman that youâ€™re married to. When a wife tells you that ~â€She still wants to keep her OM until after her trip to Central America - he has major sway over whether she gets to even go at all, then dump him quickly.â€~ I have to wonder what kind of woman she is?

There are names for woman and men who trade themselves, body and soul, for gain and no matter what her professional title ends up being those adjectives will still be accurate. Iâ€™m sorry.
Coach

Oh traveling man I have read your posts my heart goes ou to you. I tho feel as coach. Why does she feel it is ok to use OM. Is she so selfish or what ? Has seh been selfish in the past ? Does she realize she is prostituing herself for a trip ? Maybe she needs to hear this from someone -like your SIL maybe ? I am sorry for your pain but I agree what good is it doing staying around town now? I hae a strange attitude I take each time I start a new faze of my life. For the positve reasons I say this is a new adventure now. Smile and have fun on the trip. It is hard but it helps to look at things differently. Remember you only loose face when you do something you believe is wrong. If you choose to take her back -you will be fine. Just be sure in your heart this is what you truely want. Please stay in touch wiht us. We care.

I echo what coach said.

I'm reminded of an anecdote... can't remember who it's attributed to.

Man: "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"
Woman: (thinking for a moment) "I suppose I would."
Man: "Would you sleep with me for ten dollars?"
Woman: "Of course I wouldn't! What do you think I am?"
Man: "Well, we've already established what you are. Now we're just haggling over the price."

Stop letting her set the timetable. You're supposed to let her go to Central America with OM, knowing that you'll be waiting for her with baited breath? Hasn't your self-respect suffered enough? And it will suffer more, I assure you.

Right now, she has no respect for you, because you're allowing her to keep up her affair, for such a thoroughly selfish reason as a PLANE TICKET.

I say, put her to a choice. She can have the trip and the OM, or she can have you. NOT both. And she has 24 hours to decide.

She'll be pissed at you. But she will also experience a sudden jolt of respect for you. And in the long run, that's what you need from her so badly if you want to reconcile successfully.

TM,
Haven't been here in awhile.

I'm not completely sure of where you are other than what was stated in your post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> she has repeatedly told me she doesn't want to lose me forever.<hr /></blockquote>She is being a cake eater. She wants everything. She wants you. She wants her career/ trip to So America

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She hates that idea, but is still standing firm about not breaking it off until June. <hr /></blockquote>If she hates the idea why do it? Is she going to sleep w/ him on the trip?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I sometimes wonder if I will just be meek and let her set the timetable and the terms of her return. <hr /></blockquote>It's probably the case. She sounds like a strong business woman and probaly will walk over you unless you set AND maintain boundaries.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The only thing that I have a little hope in is that Plan B will change her mind on NC with the OM.
<hr /></blockquote>More than likely this is the case. Remember a Plan B letter says that you'll have no more contact with her until the affair is over and she's willing to prove that it is via MC letter and random checks.

Mac

Coach is onto something there. Added to the fact that even if it is true that she will be back in June...that is not your concern.

June is June. Now is now. If she truly loves you and wants this marriage, believe me...5 months of NC will not happen. She will not be able to do it.

As to how you will feel about your self if she comes back...deal with that when the problem presents itself. Okay?

You are on the road. Stay dark and do not let her break the NC for any reasons. She knows what it will take.

And if she does adhere to the NC and doesnt talk to you for 5 months...and then shows up at your door ready to start again, I would seriously think at that point if you want to be married to a woman that is as Coach puts it above.

But until then...get on with your life. She does not belong in it right now.

In His arms.

Travellin,

I wholeheartedly agree with Coach. Get out of LA ASAP. As much as it hurts, what kind of woman is she?

Man: "Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"
Woman: (thinking for a moment) "I suppose I would."
Man: "Would you sleep with me for ten dollars?"
Woman: "Of course I wouldn't! What do you think I am?"
Man: "Well, we've already established what you are. Now we're just haggling over the price."

One of my favorite quotes, used often. I believe it to be Bertrand Russel

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TravellinMan:

She still wants to keep her OM until after her trip to Central America -

... come June, she will end the A.
TM <hr /></blockquote>Oh Puhleezzee!!!! This is absolutely ridiculous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Begin your Plan B RIGHT NOW... and as soon as possible make your move to Texas. Let her know you`re not going to let any grass grow under your behind while sitting there waiting for her. You`re moving on and if she waits too long to hop off the fence it will be too late.

TM,

Hard to argue with the logic presented to you. I won't I agree. But, cross bridges when you come to them. First, question is the divorce she filed still working it's way through the system? If so, why don't consider this not only plan B, but the entry way to plan D? She has made no commitment to you worth anything and it is unlikely she will change.

However, as MM said don't worry about June until it comes. You may find that you have a lot less confusion in your mind by then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> In fact, you might find that the decision is a no brainer.

Look forward to hearing from you when you hit TX. Have a chicken fried steak for me.

God Bless,

JL

I'm with the others on this.

That a person would use one man to further her career, all whist destroying her husband is beyond comprehension to me.

If this is the truth and she is just using him, to me this is unforgivable. The fog and accidently finding yourself in an affair is one thing, but deliberately using another is just the most inhumane, cruel thing I can think of.

Either she is so far in the fog that she doesn't realize what she is saying, or she is so callous that she doesn't realize what she sounds like.

Either way, I would be examining my own self respect too, if I were you.

Go to plan B and stay there until you can come to some sort of understanding, or if not understanding than peace in whatever decision you end up making.

I will say that a woman who would use another human being at the risk of breaking their heart is not a woman I would want for a wife or mother of my children. Or as a friend for that matter.

Where is the kindness and compassion that is the very essense of what a woman is?

Continued cake eating. If you accept this now, yes, you will have a hard time respecting yourself and not resenting her big time in future. She now fully knows what she is putting you through and continues soley for her benefit, with no regard to you. Time for Plan B. Now. Hope that penetrates her thick skull.

TM, your title intrigued me, as I've been emerging from denial and trying to balance self-respect with the need(?) to save my M.

Everyone here is right, IMO.

Come on back to God's country (I'm kidding, I'm kidding!) and start healing.

Now, if I could just figure out my own sitch. LOL
PM

I would have to agree with the others... I really don't know what to make of what she has said.. talk about FOG!
I will tell you what I do read between the lines though, You are her backup plan... Are you comfortable being in that position? I doubt it...
Where in TX are ya going?

TM,
Do you still have my cell #?

If not and you need to talk email me at cwmac_2@yahoo.com

Mac

Thanks for all the replies...

To clarify a few points - she is going to Central America to do surgery as part of a outside program associated with her residency. The trip itself is optional, but considered a great privilege to even be asked to go. She learns more there in one week than she learns here in a month. The OM is the drector of the program. She will be paying her own way, not him.

She "fell in love" originally with the OM, but she has since realized that he is not the one for her. She would like to break it off, but is deathly afraid of reprisals from him, as he is the passive-agressive type. She is afraid he would sabotage every opportunity she had to be in surgery. Sexual harassment threats won't work because they work for seperate hospitals, but are required to work in an outside program that he is in charge of.

Yes, my WW has been selfish in the past, and the A has turned her further in that direction. She does things without regard to how it would make me feel. We have had many recent discussions about this very fact, and she has agreed with me that she has been acting very selfishly.

She has agreed to no sex. I have no way of knowing for sure, but she has never lied to me to my face in the past that I know of. I guess I will have to go on that. She is aware of the potential consequences of sex with him again. On the trip they will be rooming with other residents, so physical contact will be minimal, if at all...

As to the divorce - I have never been served papers. She tells me she has no intention of serving me at all. She filed on the OM's urging, and out of fear that I would file first in TX. She is supposedly going to look into cancelling the filing....

She has outright told me that Plan B will probably break her. She confessed that when I delivered the original PBL, she put off opening it for two days. Once she read it, she called me and met me right away. I wish I would have stood my ground then, as I would probably not be in this sitch now. I am fairly sure that it won't take too long for her to come around, but by then I will be in TX, and it will be hard for me to make sure she is in NC from 1600 miles away.

I am sticking around for a couple of days to go snowboarding. I figure I owe myself a little fun time.

I appreciate everyone's input and good wishes.

TM

TM,

You said a few thing I thought I would reply to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
She "fell in love" originally with the OM, but she has since realized that he is not the one for her. She would like to break it off, but is deathly afraid of reprisals from him, as he is the passive-agressive type. She is afraid he would sabotage every opportunity she had to be in surgery. Sexual harassment threats won't work because they work for seperate hospitals, but are required to work in an outside program that he is in charge of.<hr /></blockquote>First, you have NO evidence that she is not still in love with him and lying to you. All you are sure of is that she can and has lied to you. Second, there is an organization that is responsible for running the program she is in and OM is in. They recieve funding from another source, I KNOW THAT IS TRUE. Since OM is her effective supervisor and makes decisions that have impact on her career and educational advancement, YOU CAN SUE SOMEONE FOR SEXUAL HARRASSMENT. So don't believe this horse pucky about working for different organizations. If you/she are inclinded find a lawyer and set this man straight and if all else is as she says: THE AFFAIR WILL BE OVER.

Do you belive that? I would need to see her go to a lawyer, find out the truth of this, AND end it with OM within the time you leave as well as get letters from her hospital and his that such actions have been taken.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yes, my WW has been selfish in the past, and the A has turned her further in that direction. She does things without regard to how it would make me feel. We have had many recent discussions about this very fact, and she has agreed with me that she has been acting very selfishly.<hr /></blockquote>And so given that you have no children, just what do you expect to change in the future? What would prove to you that things have changed in the future? To quote another Texan: "How's that workin fer ya?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

During your STRICT plan B you need to be thinking about these things and making lists of what it would take and why you really think staying would be to your benefit at all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She has agreed to no sex. I have no way of knowing for sure, but she has never lied to me to my face in the past that I know of. I guess I will have to go on that.<hr /></blockquote>Excuse me, she lied to you about the affair and OM. She lied by omission and then to your face. I recall you finally figuring out there was an OM and who he was. She has lied. This is NOT a good time for selective memory. This is why Plan B will be good for you, because you need to remember ALL of the things that have gone on in your marriage (good and bad) so that you can make a better set of decisions IF you really have a decision to make.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She is aware of the potential consequences of sex with him again. On the trip they will be rooming with other residents, so physical contact will be minimal, if at all...<hr /></blockquote>She is aware that YOU cannot find out the truth and have no way to varify what she says. She has made use of that in the past and she shows no indication that she won't in the future.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />As to the divorce - I have never been served papers. She tells me she has no intention of serving me at all. She filed on the OM's urging, and out of fear that I would file first in TX. She is supposedly going to look into cancelling the filing....<hr /></blockquote>In another words the divorce is still in the mill. If she had decided NOT to serve you wouldn't the easy thing to do is to remove this action from the courts and prove it to you? She has not done that has she?? TM, you need to look at actions NOT words. They are NOT squaring up. ANd until they do, this deal is done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She has outright told me that Plan B will probably break her.<hr /></blockquote>WHat the heck does this mean? Break her???? She knows what she is doing and she is doing it. There is nothing to break. You don't count so what is there to break. You really don't have a marriage, so there is nothing to break. She might not get all of her needs met when OM goes back to his W after school is out, but that isn't going to break her, it is simply going to make her find somone to meet her needs until something else comes along. She has not acted in any way shape or form in a manner that she will greive for this other than she will have to find some guy to take care of her as you have.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She confessed that when I delivered the original PBL, she put off opening it for two days. Once she read it, she called me and met me right away. I wish I would have stood my ground then, as I would probably not be in this sitch now. I am fairly sure that it won't take too long for her to come around, but by then I will be in TX, and it will be hard for me to make sure she is in NC from 1600 miles away.<hr /></blockquote>Come around? What does that mean? She will NOT do anything until June. She has told you that. That is her schedule and that is when OM ceases to be of use to her. Now she may still be in love with him so the A might continue, or OM will be tired of her and go back to his W reenergized by this little interlude. She is NOT going to come around until it suits her purposes or OM dumps her. She has shown you that.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am sticking around for a couple of days to go snowboarding. I figure I owe myself a little fun time.<hr /></blockquote>Have a great time TM, enjoy the slopes and the great snow pack we have on the "left coast" this year.

I hope you understand that the way you are thinking is NOT going to help you and frankly will not help you rebuild and recover your marriage. You need to be ruthlessly honest with yourself and your evaluation of this situation or you will get used and used and used. Further, since there are no children in this marriage, the reasons to stay are much less. Harley stated himself that if his W had an affair and there were no children he woul d probably leave it.

So enjoy your snowboarding, enjoy the bluebonnets if they have not already gone, and start to enjoy YOUR life. You are young and have a lot of it to live.

God Bless,

JL

I appreciate everyone's input and good wishes. [/quote]

JL -

Thanks for the reply -

Some responses to your responses <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

- The program is run by a board of doctors - all independent - it is a privately funded program to help children in need in Central America and Mexico. She has no way of contacting the whole board, and there is little chance of her getting anything resolved that way. She also runs the risk of clouding her name at the same time - and she will need other doctor's recommendations to get privileges at other hospitals in the future.

- She is no longer "in love" with the OM. She stays with him only out of fear. She has taken time to evaluate her feelings and has realized what attracted her to him in the first place. I call this the "one issue voter syndrome"....He doesn't react, ever. He is very passive, and listens, but avoids all conflict. I am a reactive person, taking conflict head on. I also react much more than I ought to. She found the opposite in him, so she "fell in love". Now that time has passed, she sees that he has only a few desirable qualities, and all in all is not the man for her. She has told me that I am the only person in this world who she can have the level of intimacy that we shared. I believe this, fog or no fog.

- As to her selfishness...she has admitted that she needs IC as much as I do. She has committed to me that she will begin it once her residency is over. I feel that I have learned so much both here and in my reading (presently reading "Boundaries" by Henry Cloud - a good read!) that I can effectively interact with her without feeling taken advantage of.

- All of her lies were over the phone. She asked for a D, then promptly moved out. I originally never dreamed there was an OM, but found out a week later via Eblaster. She has lied many times to me over the phone, but if I am looking into her eyes, I don't think she can do it.

- I do hope that she will take the first step of showing me (instead of telling me) how she feels by cancelling the filing. I am not going to suggest it just yet, so she can be the one to make the first move.

- When I say "break" her, I mean just that. She feels that within a short period of time of Plan B, she will give up her wait-until-June plan, and commit to NC, come what may. She is very afraid right now, stuck between two potentially bad decisions. I know, I know, she got herself into this mess, but I do feel a shred of pity for her.

- OM will not go back to his W. He apprently was never in love with her, and has been looking to get out of the M for 4 years now. He is a wimp, to put it nicely. Even his mother and sister agree with his decision to D his W, although not with his chosen method of achieving that goal. They think he married beneath him. I wonder where he got his great morals, huh?

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Boy are my arms tired! I have tried my hand at snowboarding for the first time today. I have skiied for over 10 years, but boarding is a whole different animal. I am slowly getting used to the different feel, though. It really sucks to have to start over learning to move on the snow again. Nothing broken yet....

TM

I wanted to do this in a different post...

My WW called me while I was on the slopes and we talked for almost an hour. She was very upset, and wanted to talk to me about a way out of the sitch she has found herself in.

She understands all of my concerns about me losing m self-respect, and does not want that for me. She wants out of the A, but doesn't want to burn any bridges with the program or the OM professionally. She also doesn't want to lose me forever.

The best thing we came up with thus far is for her to let the OM know that she has no intention of moving to San Francisco in July. That is where he will be moving so he can "co-parent" (?) his son. He has made it clear to my WW that he is moving there - period. So she thinks that she could approach it like..."Oh, so sad, we were so great together, but our life circumstances just won't allow us to be together..." That way, he won't get mad at her, and try to take any revenge on her.

Any other ideas (except, of course, what most of you are thinking - full NC now, no questions asked)...

My WW also asked me today not to move to TX. She wants out of the A, and me back, she just can't figure out how to do it with the least amount of damage to her career...

I know I am going to get 2x4'ed for this (I can feel Mortarman warming up in the on deck circle right now), but I just can't seem to just abandon her when she is finally reaching out to me.

TM

Sheesh TM - Saying he was apparently never in love with his wife is just the same old BS.

And your wife only lied to you over the phone?

I think you might be in a tiny bit of denial.

Have fun snowboarding.

TM,

I am sorry to seem so hard hearted, but that is my job on this site. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You said <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wanted to do this in a different post...

My WW called me while I was on the slopes and we talked for almost an hour. She was very upset, and wanted to talk to me about a way out of the sitch she has found herself in.<hr /></blockquote>Ok, sounds good so far doesn't it?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She understands all of my concerns about me losing m self-respect, and does not want that for me. She wants out of the A, but doesn't want to burn any bridges with the program or the OM professionally. She also doesn't want to lose me forever.<hr /></blockquote>Let's see is there anything else SHE wants. How about wings so she can fly? That would be nice, perhaps a practice that brings in a mill or two? That would be nice. Sorry, but I see NO actions do you? She called, her lips moved and she DOES lie to you over the phone right?

So other than a list of wants, does she offer any plans for you to NOT feel the way you do? Does she offer to put you, the marriage, or ANYTHING above her career?

She has already said she doesn't want to "burn any bridges", and that my man would be YOU. You are bridge she doesn't want to burn, but she has the torches warmed up to cut the last strand of the suspension bridge called your marriage, and she has already cut through most of them INTENTIONALLY, because she LOVED THE OM.

God, I hate to be this harsh, but you are the one in the fog. Yup, she is in a bad situation but ONLY because she wants IT ALL. It is tough to get it all no matter what one is talking about, but really tough in a marriage to a man who is planning on leaving because SHE wanted an OM as well as a great career, and who knows what else.

WHAT ARE HER ACTIONS TM? That is the question I am asking you. Please please look to her actions.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The best thing we came up with thus far is for her to let the OM know that she has no intention of moving to San Francisco in July. That is where he will be moving so he can "co-parent" (?) his son.<hr /></blockquote>But, until he moves what is her plan? To keep the A going right? Through June right? So what has changed from her original plan? NOTHING. You have just been brought into the loop to help her have it all and she not feel too bad about it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> He has made it clear to my WW that he is moving there - period. So she thinks that she could approach it like..."Oh, so sad, we were so great together, but our life circumstances just won't allow us to be together..." That way, he won't get mad at her, and try to take any revenge on her.<hr /></blockquote>When she ends the affair NOW? Or when June comes around and she can have it all, you, the affair, her career, whatever?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Any other ideas (except, of course, what most of you are thinking - full NC now, no questions asked)...<hr /></blockquote>Has anything else worked?? I am a pragmatic guy, do what works, and appeasing her has NOT worked for YOU, but it sure works for her. Frankly, I think YOU need the plan B as much as she does. You need to really step back and see things are they seem be seen by those of us that are NOT in your situation. She needs to see things in a different light as well. Your love is sinking fast, and if she continues the EA and probably PA with OM, how is that going to make you feel? Used? Perhaps. Disrespected? Oh Yah! Second choice? Without a doubt. Is that how partneres in a marriage should feel? Absolutely NO.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My WW also asked me today not to move to TX. She wants out of the A, and me back, she just can't figure out how to do it with the least amount of damage to her career...<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps she should consider getting out of the A with the least amount of damage to her marriage? What she wants, and what should happen are two different things. You have plans to go back to school. You have already packed and loaded to move to TX. You have already heard a lot of this stuff before.

So what ACTIONS have you see that make you believe this. I know your ego is getting massaged by her calling you and telling you she does not want you to move, but you did not want her to have an affair either. More importantly what SHE wants is really of less importance to you than what you NEED to do right now.

The A is on. The A may or may NOT be over in June. The career is prime importance. I don't see how you can stay with no assurances, and let's not forget she is telling you this over the phone and she does lie over the phone (puleeaze).

Nothing has changed TM. She just doesn't want her cake to walk out right now.

Just a quick question for you. Did you help put her through undergraduate school? Did you help put her through this school? At what cost to your time, effort, work, and education did these sacrifices come? I am thinking plenty.

I am not talking about revenge, I am talking about seeing a change in actions and focus on her part. From everything you have said she has NOT changed a thing. So why would you change your plans?

Please think about this. Y may not realize this but I want you to have a great marriage to your W, but if somethings don't change you will just have the same marriage, and we all know where that went. Further, you will have set the stage for her to run over you any time she wants, because she knows she controls you.

God Bless,

JL

I know I am going to get 2x4'ed for this (I can feel Mortarman warming up in the on deck circle right now), but I just can't seem to just abandon her when she is finally reaching out to me.[/quote]

[ March 09, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]

TM,
I bet you think JL was tough on you but in truth I donâ€™t think he was tough enough, so hereâ€™s a real nasty thought for you.

I donâ€™t think your WW was ever anything like in love with the OM, nor is she anything like in love with him now. I think that she perceived an opportunity in the OM to give herself a competitive advantage and so she took it. I think it was a cold, calculated decision on her part based on nothing other then that.

I would bet that the OM was seduced with no hesitation on her part with certainly no regard to his feelings any more then she had any regard for yours. Thatâ€™s why blowing him off in June presents no problem for your wife. After all, itâ€™s not as if she ever had any emotional investment in him in the first place. She probably always intended to be finished with him in June anyway.

My friend, I really think that you need to consider the possibility that your WW is a woman whose agenda and ambition to realize her goals, will always supersede her sense of morality and her feelings of responsibility to you as her husband. And Iâ€™m quite sure that sheâ€™s fond of you, just not fond enough of you to be the kind wife you seem to want her to be.

I urge you to at the very least, to take this opportunity to separate yourself from the situation. You need time to give yourself some sense of a fresh perspective.

Coach

I agree with all that is being said here. You are over indentifying with your W, something you have probably already done. She is reaching out to you? Not in love, not in compassion and regret for what she has done to YOU, but to save her career and not have a powerful person "mad" at her. This tears me up for you. You need Plan B very, very badly. NO contact AT ALL from you to her or answer her attempts at contact. You must start doing some work on yourself here to not allow yourself to be treated this way. The Boundaries book is good, but you have to implement your boundaries, of course, you have to know what they are--do you have any?

My heart goes out to you, your W sounds incredibly calculating and oblivious to your pain other than giving it lip service.

TM:

Your recent updates on your situation have brought me out of a retirement. You my friend are in a FOG..........of epic proportions. I mean, it is thick and you are smack dab inhaling that. You are living it.

Please STOP MAKING excuses for your WW. I am in medicine brother. I know how it goes. Your WW's OM does not have the power that you think he does. Now, I will be honest and tell you that podiatry (extremely unethical profession at THE TOP) is a whole different animal than mainstream medicine, BUT laws are laws, and if this affair came to light and your WW was fired b/c of it, then the hospital and the OM would have alot of splaining to do. A litigation attornry (scumbags that most are) would be salavating over getting this case. If I did what your WW's OM is doing and was CAUGHT......my medical career would be crippled. This is no JOKE in today's times. Your WW is making a fool out of you. It is so transparent.

YOU made the comment regarding your WW that "she has never lied to me to my face in the past that I know of".

This has to go down in the MB Hall Of Fame as one of the most foggiest statements ever made by a BS. You are drowning here my friend. What about all of the talk about getting on with your life and chasing your dream of medicine? You are sure to continue getting the same results that you have been getting by douing what you are doing. THAT I CAN PROMISE YOU.....and I know that you are sitting here reading this and thinking to yourself that your WW is different and that she is just in a tough position with the OM....yada yada yada. Your WW IS NO DIFFERENT. NOT ONE IOTA. PLEASE REALIZE THIS. You are burning here and it is actually painful to watch.

Sorry to seem so harsh and seem like I am piling on. I feel a kinship to you because you are sort of like me. NO children and young. YOu have a chance to get your life back. I hope you see through the fog soon.

Good luck.

Your friend

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ouch, my head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks to all who have replied, I will digest the info tonight. I have to make a decision soon, as I have to book a flight to NYC, and I don't know whether to depart from LAX or IAH...

LM -

Thanks for coming out of retirement. Why did you say that Podiatry is unethical at the top?

I want everyone here to know that my WW did at one time love me more than life itself. She nearly worshiped the ground I walked on. That was many years ago, though. The M had grown stale...both of our faults, but possibly more mine than hers. She is not as calculating as her recent actions make her out to be....

TM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 TM:

I am in medicine brother. I know how it goes. Your WW's OM does not have the power that you think he does. Now, I will be honest and tell you that podiatry (extremely unethical profession at THE TOP) is a whole different animal than mainstream medicine, BUT laws are laws, and if this affair came to light and your WW was fired b/c of it, then the hospital and the OM would have alot of splaining to do. A litigation attornry (scumbags that most are) would be salavating over getting this case. If I did what your WW's OM is doing and was CAUGHT......my medical career would be crippled. This is no JOKE in today's times. Your WW is making a fool out of you. It is so transparent.

<hr /></blockquote>Hi TM:

I have been reading your story and I am sorry for what you are going through. Please read what LEMONMAN and JL are saying.

Do you really think your W loves you and has your best interest at heart? If that is the case the A should be ended right now and just like the others have said the OM career is at stake and all it would take is a threat to expose what he is doing and he would not dare do anything else unless he wants his career to end.

Or you can let your wife continue to sleep with this guy. You know she will because if she does not screw him he might retaliate against her. I am sorry but I do not understand you. Next thing you know your wife will say you just stood by and let another man abuse her and you did not help her.

Your wife is lying to you. Spend a few dollars and go to a Lawyer and ask another Lawyer about this. This OM would lay off of your wife in a heartbeat if you pushed this but there is a problem. Your W wants to sleep with him. Your W at a minimum wants to use him or she is really planning a life with him.

If you mattered she would end this A now!! If you mattered she would even be willing to give up this career now, but you don't matter.

Her career is more important than you. She has proved that if it will help her she will sleep with whoever to get ahead. So if it does not work out with this guy you are the fallback position. What is going to happen in the future when she meets another doctor that may be able to help her will she sleep with him or other patient that she might meet.

I am very sorry if I offended you with what I wrote. I just hate to see a good person get abused like this and they are in denial. It is your life and I wish you the best. I do hope you see the light before you are hurt even more.

OK - just one more question...

Let's suppose I go to TX, hold a firm Plan B, and soon thereafter she cracks. Let's say she throws the OM out, and commits to full NC. What do I do then? Move back to California? Expect to police her NC from TX?

How can we possibly begin the process of reconciliation from so far away? She will be moving to TX in July sometime, but what about the time leading up to that? Are we supposed to float in marriage limbo?

TM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TravellinMan:
 OK - just one more question...

Let's suppose I go to TX, hold a firm Plan B, and soon thereafter she cracks. Let's say she throws the OM out, and commits to full NC. What do I do then? Move back to California? Expect to police her NC from TX?

How can we possibly begin the process of reconciliation from so far away? She will be moving to TX in July sometime, but what about the time leading up to that? Are we supposed to float in marriage limbo?

TM <hr /></blockquote>Hi, TM.

I have been following your story.

You have been given some extraordinarily good advice here. Ask yourself this, "Why am I not listening?"

There are several people, all with the same view of your circumstance, and all with the same advice. Do you need a burning bush as well?

I will bet you a a solid grand, that if you go dark as the dark side of the moon, and RUN away from your wayward wife just as hard and fast as you can, leaving no trail, that within 2 weeks, she will break. That means no phone calls, no emails, no address change information, no contact, no nothing.

You must set a hardcore, unmovable, immutable boundary for the first time with your wife. Simply put, she has zero respect for you.

Oh, and to answer your question in the quote above, you stay in Texas. Reconciling the recovery of the marriage, and her education, is her problem, not yours.

I do honestly wish you all the best.
Gimble

You remind me of Vnus in the way you are justifying your own wife's affair. The only difference is that he had some affairs of his own so he felt that he deserved a little payback.

He ACCEPTED his wifes affair, because she told him to. Now he has just given an update that he and she are good friends, still married and the affair his still going on. He's becomming a better person I think, but is fast losing any love left for his WW.

Her reasons for staying with the OM were because she owed him money.

I have no respect for people who need to screw their boss to get to the top. And no respect for people who condone this type of behaviour so their WS can get to the top.

Are you sure your desire to have a doctor for a wife is not clouding your judgement?

That statement may be a little out there and you will probably dislike me for saying it, but I wonder why some people seem to put up with affairs.

You're WW may have just got caught up in her desire to succeed in her profession and maybe this is a type of fog too, who knows.

Maybe if she got to experience a little heartbreak and pain of her own, she would lose her fog and get back to being the person you fell in love with . But it sounds so cruel to say she no longer loves the OM but needs to use him for awhile. Sur e he is not a nice person either right now hurting his wife this way and running around with someone else's wife, but if she once loved him I doubt she would want to hurt him by prolonging the affair for her own gain. No compassion in that TM.

That is why I think everyone is up in arms about her behaviour. It's a little different than someone who accidentally gets into an affair and can't end it because they really do feel they are in love with two people, the addiction thing you know.

TM,

I am sure she does "love" you in her own way. The problem is that she does not love you as a W should love you. Love is a verb and she is showering her love on OM right now. She may have been doing it for love, but by her own words she is doing it for her OWN reasons. Those reasons do NOT include you.

You go to plan B, and you go to TX. That was your plan and that should still be your plan, NOTHING HAS CHANGED. It is NOT your job to check on her, it is not your job to police her NC IF she ever goes to that, but she cannot because after all HE has full say over her career and future right? You heard LM, you know what he is saying is true.

Go book your flights out of Houston. You will have a 3-4 month head start on getting your life going if you do it now, and there is nothing to be gained by staying here in CA watching your W have an EA/PA? with her lover. Further she will be out of the country doing her thing for a bit of this as well.

I can see absolutely NO reason for you to remain here. Factoring in the abuse you will take while she continues to cater to OM, the odds of you having any love left for her EVEN IF she decides to play W for you, are small.

Your BEST chance at this marriage is to leave. It will be her job to PROVE to you that she can be the W you want, but I must tell you her actions to date show a moral weakness that will require a lot of counseling and some deep introspection on her part. You leaving her alone offers the possibility that she will have that chance for introspection IF she decides to end the A.

My bet is that she will NOT. It will go on until June and then end IF she decides she does not need him. If he can offer a good position in SF, I am betting he will do his best to convince her to move there because he does NOT like to be alone and he is planning on dumping his W. At least that is the story now.

TM, you are a good man. If you were my son I would be offering you the same advice. You have the drive, you obviously have the ability, and you will be successful at anything you set your mind to. However, if you learn nothing, it is that you cannot control how other people think and make decisions. Get on with your life, and see what opportunities open up to you with regard to your marriage, and your future.

God Bless,

JL

PS:

TM, I also understand something else. When you head for TX it will be the first time you have started a part of your life without your W in it. I believe you were 17 when you started dating her, and she is a part of your life. Please understand , that your reluctance to do this is understood. It is a very lonely world sometimes, but it is a world filled with opportunities and people. Have confidence in yourself, you have been severely tested and you have responded well. You have done all you can do at this point and the next and last thing to do is to give both of you space.

Time to head back to the "big skies" of TX TM. Your future is calling and it may include your W, but that is a decision she is going to have to make, and a decision you will face when she makes her decisions.

[ March 10, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]

Trav Man,

First off let me say that I post this with the goal of helping. I am not trying to pile on. It's just to make you realize that you need to set firm boundaries with this woman so that she can begin to respect you.

I recently posted the following to Options, a fellow male BS who was having some trouble sticking to the MB plan.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You're thread brings up an interesting point. That is to say that so many of us pick and choose the MB advice that we implement. It's like we are ordering a la carte off of a menu.

"Hmm, NC sounds good. I'll take that, but the expossure (TM insert Plan B here)is a little overrated so I'll pass on that for now. Maybe I'll have it later for desert."

It really doesn't work that way IMHO. I think all of the concepts form one large road map. Geez now I'm mixing my metaphors. You gotta pick which road you are going to travel. Sure you may swerve a bit occassionally but your still on the same raod.

Anyway, if you don't have a plan and want to accept the MB plan then do it. Exposure by the way typically comes before NC. Exposure's purpose is to end the affair. NC insures that it doesn't start again or continue.

BTW, don't worry I was the exact same way. I followed some precepts and not others. Learmn from those that travelled before you. Hang in there.

<hr /></blockquote>What I'm trying to nicely say is that you need to stick to the program here.

First I agree with LemonMan there is still more exposure to do here especially to make OM feel very uncomfortable. His hospital is at risk here. Have you called the admin?

Plan B is made for those WSs that we call "cake-eaters" or "fence-sitters". They continue to string the BS along while they indulge themselves. I am certain your wife falls into this category. Regardless of the reason/motivation she is in this situation.

Based upon the description of her recent actions. The "I want to come back to you but after I've gone on a career promoting trip with my lover to South America" story just doesn't fly here.

Did you tell her how this made you feel? Have you told her that her actions speak much louder than her words? Have you ever asked her why her career seems to come above you?

My guess from speaking with you is that you are the easy going type. You "go with the flow." You don't like to make waves.

Most OM are our complete opposites. Your wife may be attracted to OM bc he is assertive. He does what he wants and puts the plan into action. Your wife respects this. IMVHO you need to move yourself in this direction in order to regain the W's respect.

At first she won't be used to this type of behavior from you so she'll whine and try and get you to go back to to the old docile TM.

Be firm. Set boundaries. Mark a line in the sand. I think you need to tell her that if she goes to SA with OM it is over. You'll know that her career means more to her than you do. But baring that at least go to Houston and implement Plan B.

BTW, if and when you do get your wife back and she has gone to SA you will start to resent her for it. That's the typical pattern here. We fight like dogs to get our spouses back and once we do we then have time to ponder why we want them back in the first place.

Tell your wife that this trip to SA will make recovery very difficult.

Remember you can't control her, but you can control yourself. If she goes she goes. Tells me she doesn't care cause she knows you'll be waiting in Houston for her.

This really wasn't meant as a 2x4 session. I hope you take some of it to heart.

Take care,
'
Mac

Well, you all will be happy to know that I will be leaving for TX on Sunday. My WW has no intention of leaving her OM right away, and I cannot take any more pain. I am seriously considering filing on her in TX when I get there. I just feel like she has chosen her career over her M to me. I am last for some reason, and I can't accept that.

JL - I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am very afraid of being on my own. Even though I am very capable and self-sufficient, I have always had that security of knowing someone was at home who was waiting for me, and who loved me. I have never truly been on my own, and am not looking forward to being single again. I have never had to go out an meet women, so I am no good in that department. It is a very intimidating prospect.

Mac-

Actually, you have got it backwards...I am actually a very agressive, make things happen kind of guy. It's just my WW is even more so. So I kinda take a back seat to her in the relationship. She has chosen the complete opposite of me in her OM. He is completely passive, a conflict avoider. She tells me she wants two things right now in her life, peace and someone to listen to her. He delivers both of these things, but little else.

-------------

I just finished talking with my WW for a while, and she admitted to me that she still cares deeply (she wouldn't use the word *love*) for the OM, so maybe she isn't using him as much as I was originally led to believe. That is both good and bad - good because maybe her character isn't as flawed as much as I originally thought, bad because she may not want to get rid of the OM as soon - or at all....

I am sore and sunburned from my second day ever snowboarding - but I am getting better....only a feww falls, and most fairly minor ones...

I am staying here one more day to get all the boarding in that I can, then back to LA to tie up a few loose ends...then Sunday morning I pick up my animals and trailer at my WW's house - and I am off....

TM

Well, I hope you are on the road the TEXAS no matter what. In true reality, there should be nothing that your wife should be able to say or do to change you rmind now.

I think you are just too afraid to really accept the notion that in the end she just may choose the other man. Let her reap the benefits of her choices. You and I both know where this life of hers will end up.

YOu have to go to Texas and start YOUR LIFE. If your WW is to ever be in your life again, then it will be of her own volition. You can't make her come to you anymore. The OM is not keeping her in CA with him, and I think you know that deep down inside.

We feel your pain, we really do. Go back to Texas and take back you rlife. Go after your dreams. DOn't give up life waiting for your wife to "come around".

We are rooting for you.

LM

Hi TM,

I've never posted to you before, but I've tried to keep up with your story.

Just felt compelled to write to you... reading your last post left my stomach in knots...

Why? Well, partly because I'm about to embark on my own first-journey-alone... and everything you said hits home.

Of course, then you wrote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />my second day ever snowboarding - but I am getting better....only a feww falls, and most fairly minor ones...<hr /></blockquote>and I figure, anyone who can say that... is going to be just fine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Best wishes, and best of luck to you, TM.
I bet after you make the move to TX, you check in sooner than later, and I bet you're going to be in great spirits -- just a hunch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep your head up high, where it should be!

You are right about one thing TM...I am warming up my bat, and it looks like I am hitting clean-up. JL, LM and others hit the nail on the head. Get in yiur car and get out of town.

Ditto what everyone said above(Mortarman states as he adds pine tar to the handle of his maplewood bat...ready to stat swinging in TM's direction.

In His arms

Lemonman -

Thanks for the encouragement - it means alot to me...

Did you see my earlier question about why you said Podiatry is an unethical profession at the top???

tqt-

Thanks for posting to me...I need all the encouragement I can get. I am ashamed to admit it, but I am frightened.

Also, as to the boarding, I hope that my previous experience with skateboarding and skiing are helping me pick it up quickly. I have been skiing for over ten years, mostly in Colorado where they don't kid around....when you see a black (or double black) diamond, watch out! I even went on a black diamond today...really was a blue in my book...

TM

[ March 10, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: TravellinMan ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TravellinMan:
 Lemonman -

Thanks for the encouragement - it means alot to me...

Did you see my earlier question about why you said Podiatry is an unethical profession at the top???

<hr /></blockquote>Well as you probably know, podiatry is NOT a mainstream branch of alloptahic medicine. Podiatry has always suffered an identity complex in the medical hierachy. POdiatrists have long been the butt of many jokes and have always had trouble gaining respect among other MD specialists. POdiatrists are not PHYSICIANS in the legal sense of the word. The podiatry training does not fall under the auspices of accredited graduate medical education that ALL other medical specialties (i.e General Surgery, Cardiology, OB/GYN) do and hence it kind of flies by itself with little means of policing corruption. Podiatry training has long been known to be corrupt with nepotism and the "good ole boy" network. It is not uncommone to see many podiatry surgery residencies going on the basis of who you know rather than what you know. The podiatry resideny matching programs are a complete sham. I think in a way your Wayward Wife is very paranoid about losing her spot becasue that kind of $hit has gone on for years in podiatry. The training is not uniform and there are unfortunately many unscrupulous people at the top of the food chain in podiatry. In medical circles podiatry is the branch of medicine where the "old eat their young". If you want to really learn about podiatry, follow this link: http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927

everything that you ever wanetd to know about podiatry will be here. It is quite comical....unless you are in podiatry. Your WW should be wary of her future. I will leave it at that.

LM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am ashamed to admit it, but I am frightened.<hr /></blockquote>TM,
I feel the same way, but perhaps a different way to look at it is... if it were not frightening, then there'd be something wrong with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is always some level of fear when dealing with the unknown -- it's human nature at its finest, designed to protect us.
And in this business, at the place you're at right now, there's a whole helluva lot of unknowns.

Intelligent people like you, and hopefully me, find a way to not only overcome the fear, but unconsciously get it to work for you in the process.

IOW, think of being frightened as a good thing, and nothing to be afraid of!

TM,

You said <blockquote>quote:<hr />JL - I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am very afraid of being on my own. Even though I am very capable and self-sufficient, I have always had that security of knowing someone was at home who was waiting for me, and who loved me. I have never truly been on my own, and am not looking forward to being single again. I have never had to go out an meet women, so I am no good in that department. It is a very intimidating prospect. <hr /></blockquote>TM, you have been on your own for longer than you realize. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is why all of us have been pounding on you. You did not realize it, but you have been. The woman you are married to cares little for your happiness, will not protect you, and will not support you. That my man is being "on your own."

You will find out rather quickly that if you acknowledge people, look them in the eye when you talk with them, smile, and savor life, YOU WILL HAVE MORE FRIENDS than you know what to do with. If you are going to Austin for school, you will find it is a friendly town. If you join the ski club that is UT, you are talking to one of its founders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seriously, moved there and help found their ski club many decades ago.

Further 31,is a great age to be. You are old enough to know what is up. You are old enough that professors will NOT intimidate you, and yet you are young enough and without obligations enough to really enjoy life.

TM, your future is ahead of you, and there are A LOT of friendly people in the world, go meet a few of them. Your life will be enriched.

Finally, I personally feel that this time on your own will change you in important ways. You will learn what a joy it is to have someone loving in your life. BUT, you will also learn that your life can be great WITHOUT such a person. This last lesson will allow you to pick and choose carefully in the future, even with regard to your W. You will see things more clearly. You will understand what you need, expect, want, hopeful in a relationship and a marriage.

TM, while you did not fail this marriage, you need to learn a lot of things and they are best learned ON YOUR OWN. This is an OPPORTUNITY TM, seize it, enjoy it, and wring everything you can out of it. It is time to point the tips down hill and let'er rip. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am very happy for your decision.

God Bless,

JL