TM,
I bet you think JL was tough on you but in truth I don’t think he was tough enough, so here’s a real nasty thought for you.

I don’t think your WW was ever anything like in love with the OM, nor is she anything like in love with him now. I think that she perceived an opportunity in the OM to give herself a competitive advantage and so she took it. I think it was a cold, calculated decision on her part based on nothing other then that.

I would bet that the OM was seduced with no hesitation on her part with certainly no regard to his feelings any more then she had any regard for yours. That’s why blowing him off in June presents no problem for your wife. After all, it’s not as if she ever had any emotional investment in him in the first place. She probably always intended to be finished with him in June anyway.

My friend, I really think that you need to consider the possibility that your WW is a woman whose agenda and ambition to realize her goals, will always supersede her sense of morality and her feelings of responsibility to you as her husband. And I’m quite sure that she’s fond of you, just not fond enough of you to be the kind wife you seem to want her to be.

I urge you to at the very least, to take this opportunity to separate yourself from the situation. You need time to give yourself some sense of a fresh perspective.

Coach

I agree with all that is being said here. You are over indentifying with your W, something you have probably already done. She is reaching out to you? Not in love, not in compassion and regret for what she has done to YOU, but to save her career and not have a powerful person "mad" at her. This tears me up for you. You need Plan B very, very badly. NO contact AT ALL from you to her or answer her attempts at contact. You must start doing some work on yourself here to not allow yourself to be treated this way. The Boundaries book is good, but you have to implement your boundaries, of course, you have to know what they are--do you have any?

My heart goes out to you, your W sounds incredibly calculating and oblivious to your pain other than giving it lip service.

TM:

Your recent updates on your situation have brought me out of a retirement. You my friend are in a FOG..........of epic proportions. I mean, it is thick and you are smack dab inhaling that. You are living it.

Please STOP MAKING excuses for your WW. I am in medicine brother. I know how it goes. Your WW's OM does not have the power that you think he does. Now, I will be honest and tell you that podiatry (extremely unethical profession at THE TOP) is a whole different animal than mainstream medicine, BUT laws are laws, and if this affair came to light and your WW was fired b/c of it, then the hospital and the OM would have alot of splaining to do. A litigation attornry (scumbags that most are) would be salavating over getting this case. If I did what your WW's OM is doing and was CAUGHT......my medical career would be crippled. This is no JOKE in today's times. Your WW is making a fool out of you. It is so transparent.

YOU made the comment regarding your WW that "she has never lied to me to my face in the past that I know of".

This has to go down in the MB Hall Of Fame as one of the most foggiest statements ever made by a BS. You are drowning here my friend. What about all of the talk about getting on with your life and chasing your dream of medicine? You are sure to continue getting the same results that you have been getting by douing what you are doing. THAT I CAN PROMISE YOU.....and I know that you are sitting here reading this and thinking to yourself that your WW is different and that she is just in a tough position with the OM....yada yada yada. Your WW IS NO DIFFERENT. NOT ONE IOTA. PLEASE REALIZE THIS. You are burning here and it is actually painful to watch.

Sorry to seem so harsh and seem like I am piling on. I feel a kinship to you because you are sort of like me. NO children and young. YOu have a chance to get your life back. I hope you see through the fog soon.

Good luck.

Your friend

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ouch, my head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks to all who have replied, I will digest the info tonight. I have to make a decision soon, as I have to book a flight to NYC, and I don't know whether to depart from LAX or IAH...

LM -

Thanks for coming out of retirement. Why did you say that Podiatry is unethical at the top?


I want everyone here to know that my WW did at one time love me more than life itself. She nearly worshiped the ground I walked on. That was many years ago, though. The M had grown stale...both of our faults, but possibly more mine than hers. She is not as calculating as her recent actions make her out to be....

TM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> TM:

I am in medicine brother. I know how it goes. Your WW's OM does not have the power that you think he does. Now, I will be honest and tell you that podiatry (extremely unethical profession at THE TOP) is a whole different animal than mainstream medicine, BUT laws are laws, and if this affair came to light and your WW was fired b/c of it, then the hospital and the OM would have alot of splaining to do. A litigation attornry (scumbags that most are) would be salavating over getting this case. If I did what your WW's OM is doing and was CAUGHT......my medical career would be crippled. This is no JOKE in today's times. Your WW is making a fool out of you. It is so transparent.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi TM:

I have been reading your story and I am sorry for what you are going through. Please read what LEMONMAN and JL are saying.

Do you really think your W loves you and has your best interest at heart? If that is the case the A should be ended right now and just like the others have said the OM career is at stake and all it would take is a threat to expose what he is doing and he would not dare do anything else unless he wants his career to end.

Or you can let your wife continue to sleep with this guy. You know she will because if she does not screw him he might retaliate against her. I am sorry but I do not understand you. Next thing you know your wife will say you just stood by and let another man abuse her and you did not help her.

Your wife is lying to you. Spend a few dollars and go to a Lawyer and ask another Lawyer about this. This OM would lay off of your wife in a heartbeat if you pushed this but there is a problem. Your W wants to sleep with him. Your W at a minimum wants to use him or she is really planning a life with him.

If you mattered she would end this A now!! If you mattered she would even be willing to give up this career now, but you don't matter.

Her career is more important than you. She has proved that if it will help her she will sleep with whoever to get ahead. So if it does not work out with this guy you are the fallback position. What is going to happen in the future when she meets another doctor that may be able to help her will she sleep with him or other patient that she might meet.

I am very sorry if I offended you with what I wrote. I just hate to see a good person get abused like this and they are in denial. It is your life and I wish you the best. I do hope you see the light before you are hurt even more.

OK - just one more question...

Let's suppose I go to TX, hold a firm Plan B, and soon thereafter she cracks. Let's say she throws the OM out, and commits to full NC. What do I do then? Move back to California? Expect to police her NC from TX?

How can we possibly begin the process of reconciliation from so far away? She will be moving to TX in July sometime, but what about the time leading up to that? Are we supposed to float in marriage limbo?


TM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TravellinMan:
<strong> OK - just one more question...

Let's suppose I go to TX, hold a firm Plan B, and soon thereafter she cracks. Let's say she throws the OM out, and commits to full NC. What do I do then? Move back to California? Expect to police her NC from TX?

How can we possibly begin the process of reconciliation from so far away? She will be moving to TX in July sometime, but what about the time leading up to that? Are we supposed to float in marriage limbo?


TM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, TM.

I have been following your story.

You have been given some extraordinarily good advice here. Ask yourself this, "Why am I not listening?"

There are several people, all with the same view of your circumstance, and all with the same advice. Do you need a burning bush as well?

I will bet you a a solid grand, that if you go dark as the dark side of the moon, and RUN away from your wayward wife just as hard and fast as you can, leaving no trail, that within 2 weeks, she will break. That means no phone calls, no emails, no address change information, no contact, no nothing.

You must set a hardcore, unmovable, immutable boundary for the first time with your wife. Simply put, she has zero respect for you.

Oh, and to answer your question in the quote above, you stay in Texas. Reconciling the recovery of the marriage, and her education, is her problem, not yours.

I do honestly wish you all the best.
Gimble

You remind me of Vnus in the way you are justifying your own wife's affair. The only difference is that he had some affairs of his own so he felt that he deserved a little payback.

He ACCEPTED his wifes affair, because she told him to. Now he has just given an update that he and she are good friends, still married and the affair his still going on. He's becomming a better person I think, but is fast losing any love left for his WW.

Her reasons for staying with the OM were because she owed him money.

I have no respect for people who need to screw their boss to get to the top. And no respect for people who condone this type of behaviour so their WS can get to the top.

Are you sure your desire to have a doctor for a wife is not clouding your judgement?

That statement may be a little out there and you will probably dislike me for saying it, but I wonder why some people seem to put up with affairs.

You're WW may have just got caught up in her desire to succeed in her profession and maybe this is a type of fog too, who knows.

Maybe if she got to experience a little heartbreak and pain of her own, she would lose her fog and get back to being the person you fell in love with . But it sounds so cruel to say she no longer loves the OM but needs to use him for awhile. Sur e he is not a nice person either right now hurting his wife this way and running around with someone else's wife, but if she once loved him I doubt she would want to hurt him by prolonging the affair for her own gain. No compassion in that TM.

That is why I think everyone is up in arms about her behaviour. It's a little different than someone who accidentally gets into an affair and can't end it because they really do feel they are in love with two people, the addiction thing you know.

TM,

I am sure she does "love" you in her own way. The problem is that she does not love you as a W should love you. Love is a verb and she is showering her love on OM right now. She may have been doing it for love, but by her own words she is doing it for her OWN reasons. Those reasons do NOT include you.

You go to plan B, and you go to TX. That was your plan and that should still be your plan, NOTHING HAS CHANGED. It is NOT your job to check on her, it is not your job to police her NC IF she ever goes to that, but she cannot because after all HE has full say over her career and future right? You heard LM, you know what he is saying is true.

Go book your flights out of Houston. You will have a 3-4 month head start on getting your life going if you do it now, and there is nothing to be gained by staying here in CA watching your W have an EA/PA? with her lover. Further she will be out of the country doing her thing for a bit of this as well.

I can see absolutely NO reason for you to remain here. Factoring in the abuse you will take while she continues to cater to OM, the odds of you having any love left for her EVEN IF she decides to play W for you, are small.

Your BEST chance at this marriage is to leave. It will be her job to PROVE to you that she can be the W you want, but I must tell you her actions to date show a moral weakness that will require a lot of counseling and some deep introspection on her part. You leaving her alone offers the possibility that she will have that chance for introspection IF she decides to end the A.

My bet is that she will NOT. It will go on until June and then end IF she decides she does not need him. If he can offer a good position in SF, I am betting he will do his best to convince her to move there because he does NOT like to be alone and he is planning on dumping his W. At least that is the story now.

TM, you are a good man. If you were my son I would be offering you the same advice. You have the drive, you obviously have the ability, and you will be successful at anything you set your mind to. However, if you learn nothing, it is that you cannot control how other people think and make decisions. Get on with your life, and see what opportunities open up to you with regard to your marriage, and your future.

God Bless,

JL

PS:

TM, I also understand something else. When you head for TX it will be the first time you have started a part of your life without your W in it. I believe you were 17 when you started dating her, and she is a part of your life. Please understand , that your reluctance to do this is understood. It is a very lonely world sometimes, but it is a world filled with opportunities and people. Have confidence in yourself, you have been severely tested and you have responded well. You have done all you can do at this point and the next and last thing to do is to give both of you space.

Time to head back to the "big skies" of TX TM. Your future is calling and it may include your W, but that is a decision she is going to have to make, and a decision you will face when she makes her decisions.

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Trav Man,

First off let me say that I post this with the goal of helping. I am not trying to pile on. It's just to make you realize that you need to set firm boundaries with this woman so that she can begin to respect you.

I recently posted the following to Options, a fellow male BS who was having some trouble sticking to the MB plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You're thread brings up an interesting point. That is to say that so many of us pick and choose the MB advice that we implement. It's like we are ordering a la carte off of a menu.

"Hmm, NC sounds good. I'll take that, but the expossure (TM insert Plan B here)is a little overrated so I'll pass on that for now. Maybe I'll have it later for desert."

It really doesn't work that way IMHO. I think all of the concepts form one large road map. Geez now I'm mixing my metaphors. You gotta pick which road you are going to travel. Sure you may swerve a bit occassionally but your still on the same raod.

Anyway, if you don't have a plan and want to accept the MB plan then do it. Exposure by the way typically comes before NC. Exposure's purpose is to end the affair. NC insures that it doesn't start again or continue.

BTW, don't worry I was the exact same way. I followed some precepts and not others. Learmn from those that travelled before you. Hang in there.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I'm trying to nicely say is that you need to stick to the program here.

First I agree with LemonMan there is still more exposure to do here especially to make OM feel very uncomfortable. His hospital is at risk here. Have you called the admin?

Plan B is made for those WSs that we call "cake-eaters" or "fence-sitters". They continue to string the BS along while they indulge themselves. I am certain your wife falls into this category. Regardless of the reason/motivation she is in this situation.

Based upon the description of her recent actions. The "I want to come back to you but after I've gone on a career promoting trip with my lover to South America" story just doesn't fly here.

Did you tell her how this made you feel? Have you told her that her actions speak much louder than her words? Have you ever asked her why her career seems to come above you?

My guess from speaking with you is that you are the easy going type. You "go with the flow." You don't like to make waves.

Most OM are our complete opposites. Your wife may be attracted to OM bc he is assertive. He does what he wants and puts the plan into action. Your wife respects this. IMVHO you need to move yourself in this direction in order to regain the W's respect.

At first she won't be used to this type of behavior from you so she'll whine and try and get you to go back to to the old docile TM.

Be firm. Set boundaries. Mark a line in the sand. I think you need to tell her that if she goes to SA with OM it is over. You'll know that her career means more to her than you do. But baring that at least go to Houston and implement Plan B.

BTW, if and when you do get your wife back and she has gone to SA you will start to resent her for it. That's the typical pattern here. We fight like dogs to get our spouses back and once we do we then have time to ponder why we want them back in the first place.

Tell your wife that this trip to SA will make recovery very difficult.

Remember you can't control her, but you can control yourself. If she goes she goes. Tells me she doesn't care cause she knows you'll be waiting in Houston for her.

This really wasn't meant as a 2x4 session. I hope you take some of it to heart.

Take care,
'
Mac

Well, you all will be happy to know that I will be leaving for TX on Sunday. My WW has no intention of leaving her OM right away, and I cannot take any more pain. I am seriously considering filing on her in TX when I get there. I just feel like she has chosen her career over her M to me. I am last for some reason, and I can't accept that.

JL - I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am very afraid of being on my own. Even though I am very capable and self-sufficient, I have always had that security of knowing someone was at home who was waiting for me, and who loved me. I have never truly been on my own, and am not looking forward to being single again. I have never had to go out an meet women, so I am no good in that department. It is a very intimidating prospect.

Mac-

Actually, you have got it backwards...I am actually a very agressive, make things happen kind of guy. It's just my WW is even more so. So I kinda take a back seat to her in the relationship. She has chosen the complete opposite of me in her OM. He is completely passive, a conflict avoider. She tells me she wants two things right now in her life, peace and someone to listen to her. He delivers both of these things, but little else.

-------------

I just finished talking with my WW for a while, and she admitted to me that she still cares deeply (she wouldn't use the word *love*) for the OM, so maybe she isn't using him as much as I was originally led to believe. That is both good and bad - good because maybe her character isn't as flawed as much as I originally thought, bad because she may not want to get rid of the OM as soon - or at all....

I am sore and sunburned from my second day ever snowboarding - but I am getting better....only a feww falls, and most fairly minor ones...

I am staying here one more day to get all the boarding in that I can, then back to LA to tie up a few loose ends...then Sunday morning I pick up my animals and trailer at my WW's house - and I am off....

TM

Well, I hope you are on the road the TEXAS no matter what. In true reality, there should be nothing that your wife should be able to say or do to change you rmind now.

I think you are just too afraid to really accept the notion that in the end she just may choose the other man. Let her reap the benefits of her choices. You and I both know where this life of hers will end up.

YOu have to go to Texas and start YOUR LIFE. If your WW is to ever be in your life again, then it will be of her own volition. You can't make her come to you anymore. The OM is not keeping her in CA with him, and I think you know that deep down inside.

We feel your pain, we really do. Go back to Texas and take back you rlife. Go after your dreams. DOn't give up life waiting for your wife to "come around".

We are rooting for you.

LM

Hi TM,

I've never posted to you before, but I've tried to keep up with your story.

Just felt compelled to write to you... reading your last post left my stomach in knots...

Why? Well, partly because I'm about to embark on my own first-journey-alone... and everything you said hits home.

Of course, then you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my second day ever snowboarding - but I am getting better....only a feww falls, and most fairly minor ones...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and I figure, anyone who can say that... is going to be just fine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Best wishes, and best of luck to you, TM.
I bet after you make the move to TX, you check in sooner than later, and I bet you're going to be in great spirits -- just a hunch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep your head up high, where it should be!

You are right about one thing TM...I am warming up my bat, and it looks like I am hitting clean-up. JL, LM and others hit the nail on the head. Get in yiur car and get out of town.

Ditto what everyone said above(Mortarman states as he adds pine tar to the handle of his maplewood bat...ready to stat swinging in TM's direction.

In His arms

Lemonman -

Thanks for the encouragement - it means alot to me...

Did you see my earlier question about why you said Podiatry is an unethical profession at the top???

tqt-

Thanks for posting to me...I need all the encouragement I can get. I am ashamed to admit it, but I am frightened.

Also, as to the boarding, I hope that my previous experience with skateboarding and skiing are helping me pick it up quickly. I have been skiing for over ten years, mostly in Colorado where they don't kid around....when you see a black (or double black) diamond, watch out! I even went on a black diamond today...really was a blue in my book...


TM

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: TravellinMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TravellinMan:
<strong> Lemonman -

Thanks for the encouragement - it means alot to me...

Did you see my earlier question about why you said Podiatry is an unethical profession at the top???

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well as you probably know, podiatry is NOT a mainstream branch of alloptahic medicine. Podiatry has always suffered an identity complex in the medical hierachy. POdiatrists have long been the butt of many jokes and have always had trouble gaining respect among other MD specialists. POdiatrists are not PHYSICIANS in the legal sense of the word. The podiatry training does not fall under the auspices of accredited graduate medical education that ALL other medical specialties (i.e General Surgery, Cardiology, OB/GYN) do and hence it kind of flies by itself with little means of policing corruption. Podiatry training has long been known to be corrupt with nepotism and the "good ole boy" network. It is not uncommone to see many podiatry surgery residencies going on the basis of who you know rather than what you know. The podiatry resideny matching programs are a complete sham. I think in a way your Wayward Wife is very paranoid about losing her spot becasue that kind of $hit has gone on for years in podiatry. The training is not uniform and there are unfortunately many unscrupulous people at the top of the food chain in podiatry. In medical circles podiatry is the branch of medicine where the "old eat their young". If you want to really learn about podiatry, follow this link: http://www.network54.com/Forum/23927

everything that you ever wanetd to know about podiatry will be here. It is quite comical....unless you are in podiatry. Your WW should be wary of her future. I will leave it at that.

LM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am ashamed to admit it, but I am frightened.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TM,
I feel the same way, but perhaps a different way to look at it is... if it were not frightening, then there'd be something wrong with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There is always some level of fear when dealing with the unknown -- it's human nature at its finest, designed to protect us.
And in this business, at the place you're at right now, there's a whole helluva lot of unknowns.

Intelligent people like you, and hopefully me, find a way to not only overcome the fear, but unconsciously get it to work for you in the process.

IOW, think of being frightened as a good thing, and nothing to be afraid of!

TM,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL - I think you have hit the nail on the head. I am very afraid of being on my own. Even though I am very capable and self-sufficient, I have always had that security of knowing someone was at home who was waiting for me, and who loved me. I have never truly been on my own, and am not looking forward to being single again. I have never had to go out an meet women, so I am no good in that department. It is a very intimidating prospect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TM, you have been on your own for longer than you realize. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is why all of us have been pounding on you. You did not realize it, but you have been. The woman you are married to cares little for your happiness, will not protect you, and will not support you. That my man is being "on your own."

You will find out rather quickly that if you acknowledge people, look them in the eye when you talk with them, smile, and savor life, YOU WILL HAVE MORE FRIENDS than you know what to do with. If you are going to Austin for school, you will find it is a friendly town. If you join the ski club that is UT, you are talking to one of its founders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Seriously, moved there and help found their ski club many decades ago.

Further 31,is a great age to be. You are old enough to know what is up. You are old enough that professors will NOT intimidate you, and yet you are young enough and without obligations enough to really enjoy life.

TM, your future is ahead of you, and there are A LOT of friendly people in the world, go meet a few of them. Your life will be enriched.

Finally, I personally feel that this time on your own will change you in important ways. You will learn what a joy it is to have someone loving in your life. BUT, you will also learn that your life can be great WITHOUT such a person. This last lesson will allow you to pick and choose carefully in the future, even with regard to your W. You will see things more clearly. You will understand what you need, expect, want, hopeful in a relationship and a marriage.

TM, while you did not fail this marriage, you need to learn a lot of things and they are best learned ON YOUR OWN. This is an OPPORTUNITY TM, seize it, enjoy it, and wring everything you can out of it. It is time to point the tips down hill and let'er rip. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am very happy for your decision.

God Bless,

JL