OW #2? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Just discovered ny WH used his business credit cards to purchase tickets to an atheletic event.
I know that several of his friends were going but he didn't have tickets. He was planning on meeting them afterwards. Now he has bought TWO tickets to go. And of course he didn't use our Credit card. Do I call him on it? If I do he will know that I have been checking things and will be more likely to change passwords. Or do I wait and ask one of his friends about it. I could play stupid and say So and So saw you at the game...and see how he replies.

One thing for sure...he ain't taking me! If I found out he did go with another OW, I would file next week.

How about you get a ticket, go early, and stand near the entrance? But don't do it if you would be to upset because of what you are going to see. Or hire a PI to follow him? (I know of a good one in the area. Email me if you want his name.)

Trouble is, don't those stadiums have many entrances. How would you know which one he'd be at unless you had the seat number on the tickets. Any chance those tickets are lurking in a briefcase, pocket, drawer so you could get more specifics? I'm sure you are having one hell of an adrenaline rush right now. I hope you're wrong, but considering the secrecy, I doubt it. Sorry. TT

I am pretty sure I know the stadium she is talking about since I live in the area. I believe it has one main entrance. But again, is it something she wants to see on her own? It would be tough.

Okay, Homer, you probably aren't going to like what I think, but I'm putting it out here anyway.

Your WH moved out. He no longer wants to be running these decisions by you. He wants to be making his OWN decisions, doing his OWN thing.

During our separation, my FWH spent a LOT of money. First, with his little hovel apartment, then he tends to be a "stess" buyer. So soon there was a digital camera (just what I was thinking about the hardest time of my life ~ let's record it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ), a fax/printer/copier/scanner, new furniture for said apartment (oh, except the living room furniture ~ OW gave him her old stuff! Since she was my FBF, I knew the furniture well. Needless to say, going to FWH's apartment was literally a gut-wrenching {PUKE} ordeal for me).

Then, I found out he had gotten a new credit card. I was DYING to know what he was charging on that thing. I asked, and he just shrugged and said his school and books and stuff. I told him I needed to know so I could pay on it if needed, and he said he would take care of it.

And I finally realized that it was HIS business. He had left. He claimed to want D even. If he didn't want to share that stuff with me, and he didn't, he didn't have to!

I don't think you should be worrying about OW #2 right now. And try and get your head out of the ultimatum, filing for D cycle. Honestly, if you could just sit back and relax a bit, this whole thing will go more smoothly. I truly think you need to find alternative arrangements for having to work with him. I'm sure you can come up with 500 reasons why it isn't possible. But I do know, from my own personal experience, that where there is a will, there is a way.

You need to get all the way out of his life, not just part-way, if you expect him to ever miss you and your M. Right now, you are too involved still. You see things, hear things, want to probe people. I am here to tell you that when you are meant to know stuff, you will learn of it.

Ever heard the expression: "Let go, let God?" Well, He can't do a darn thing for you if you give it over to Him, but keep taking it back over and over trying to do it all yourself.

You are in a very natural place. But it is your responsibility, being the most stable and supported member of your M right now, to do MORE than just what comes naturally. You must move beyond what you think you can do, into the realm of personal and spiritual growth and recovery.

Right now, you are like the rat, or chinchilla at our house, running round and round in the wheel, getting nowhere but exhausted. When/if your WH ever comes home, I am here to tell you that you will need a LOT of energy and love left over for the recovery process. It is hard work! You are in a marathon, not a sprint.

Let it go.

Spidey

[ March 12, 2005, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]

Spidey just gave you some excellent advice. Maybe it is time to quit worrying about what your husband is doing and just take care of yourself.

Spider you are absolutely right as always. I am trying soooo hard to let go. My control issues have crossed over into my spiritual existance.
I remind myself all the time of "your will be done", I just feel that if I knew my WH is stepping out on me again with someone else I would let go, permanently and never look back. My WH always brings up that the trust will never come back...well hell yeah..if he keeps hiding things from me it won't.

He had just gotten all over my case for charging something on our personal account, so I know that he wouldn't want me knowing about him spending money on some "outing", so he found away around it.

I know from a friend he didn't go to the event Fri, but met everyone after for drinks. Which he also covered up. But I asked him about the next night he said, no he hadn't. Am I being as deceitful as him when I ask him questions about things that I already have info on?

I started thinking about things this weekend. I was coming up with a lot of things that are important to me that I have never received in my M. The reality is he isn't going to change. The reality is that I know without a doubt their is someone else out there that would meet so many more of my needs then he does. I dream about being able to have a spouse that has an opinion on something and is willing to share it without making me feel like I am an idiot for having my own thoughts. I couldn't imagine having a spouse that actually sat down with me to plan a family vacation other then saying "Did you pack the DD's bag yet?. I know that just about anyone I meet would help out more around the house then he does, not that I care one way or the other..but someone who isn't going to make comments like "Gross, this is disgusting" when cleaning the floors....as if implying they are that way because I don't clean them.

I am just so tired of being this doormat...so tired of putting in the effort...so tired of being around someone who so obviously can not stand me as a person.

Sadly I will be going on Spring Break with him and DD's. I am dreading it because I know he will berate me for little things...if I stand up for myself it will make the vacation miserable, if I say nothing maybe it will help me to see that I really don't love him at all and there is someone else out there for me.

Ok it just got worse... he removed the business account from our online banking. I can't see anything. What do I do...do I ask him or like Spider said let it go.

D

Sorry... I didn't wait. I called him on it.
First he acted like he didn't know what I was talking about. Then he said he hadn't gotten the receipt for the charge...like he wasn't sure what the tickets were for. I asked him where he was going and with who. He refused to answer...said he hadn't made that decision yet. What the hell
is that!!!!!!! He told me he wasn't going to discuss it with me. Oh my God I feel so sick right now.

Stop asking him about all these things and stop checking on the things you still have access to. It's doing you no good, only bringing more hurt and pain. Do a complete 180, he'll wonder why you have stopped asking. Think about it, is asking getting you anywhere? No! It's just making the both of you more miserable. Think about it, everytime you talk to him you are grilling him asking him 1,000 questions. Why would he even want to talk to you? Would you want to talk to someone who did that to you? Probably not.

Regarding the vacation next week, resolve to make this a turning point. No LB's! Be funny, pleasant and a joy to be around. Don't ask him any questions. If he tries to pull you into a fight, don't let him. You can't control him but you can control yourself. Remember it takes two to fight. If he says something to put you down, tell him you are sorry he feels that way. Don't disagree with him, but don't agree or fight. Enjoy the time with your children, if your WH wants to be miserable let him but don't let him dictate your mood.

When my FWH and I were seperated I LB'ed in the beginning and you know what? That is when he pulled back the most. Why would he want to talk to me when I screamed at him and made him more miserable then he already was. When I started reaching out without LB's and was pleasant to be around that is when he responded the most positively. He saw the good me that he was giving up, not the bitter nasty me that I could have easily become.

Do you want your M and you family? Then you have to fight for it. You need to do what is best for your M. Lead with your head not your heart.

Kloe isn't that sweeping things under the rug. How can I not want to know what is going on? I do not want to be duped. He says there is no-one and he will tell me if there is. I wan to know because if he is still stringing me along, I am out of here!!! I can not continue to trust him if his actions tell me otherwise. If I stop looking for things isn't this jsut a way of ignoring the obvious.
Am I really asking too much of a WS but expecting honesty....wait...yeah, I am. But I have the right to know if he is screwing around or not. I have the right to know if he is spending money and time on someone else while I am at home with the kids. He gave me grief a week ago about spending money on things we didn't need, now he uses his business account to hide his own spending habits.

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!!!!!
Where does there human decency go, where does compassion hide in the WS's. This is so wrong, and the fact that only one friend has had the cahones to say anythign is also amazing

Homer, it isn't really sweeping under the rug. It is simply putting it on a back burner, until you two can effectively communicate with each other. Your old M is gone, dead. Right now, not much holds you two together. What was there before was trust, a sense that you were both on the same "team."

Right now, to some extent, he sees you as the other team. You are trying to do what is "right" and "sensible." To him it is meddlesome and controlling.

I don't know why you expect him to act different than every other WS on the planet. They ALL act like this! We ALL have had to make personal sacrifices along the way to save our M's. That is just fact. You are not going to be able to just do it "your way."

If you want to save your M, you must withdraw from him. Don't work with him, don't check his business account, set up a visitation schedule, and don't even talk to him! He needs some space. He feels like he is finally standing his ground, and he has dug in his heals, and my guess is at this point he will lose EVERYthing, just to hold "his ground." This is very important to him.

He probably has a lot of pent up resentment and anger, about your past and your M. He might feel that he has been railroaded by you for years, and he isn't going to do that anymore. Does this make sense to you?

My H blamed me for EVERYthing during his A. He complained about the most outrageous stuff to me ~ stuff that supposedly he had hated for years, and not ONCE had he ever said anything to me about it.

What it comes down to is: He is going to act the way he is going to act, until something changes. YOU can change, as you are here, and you have the knowledge of what you have power and control over.

If you could just back off, give him all the space he wants, remove yourself from his everyday life, things will shift.

You are already talking borderline Plan D stuff anyway ~ why not get a taste of that, for both of you, before jumping fully into it? Set your lives up as if you were planning for D. Get an arrangement made for the work, for the kids, for the bills, and find some stuff for you to do on your own.

Spidey

Listen to Spidey she knows what she is talking about. She held my hand through my horrible ordeal and now me and my FWH and on our way to building a new, better stronger marriage.

I agree with everyone about letting it go...

And as far as the vacation goes, here's a 180 idea for you: Why not take a little time for yourself during the week. A couple of times during the week, ask H to watch the kids, that you're going out for a while. If he wants to know where, tell him you just want a little time to yourself, maybe you'll do a little shopping, whatever. In other words, tell him the truth! When you go, dress up a little. Put makeup on. Then - go out, even if it's just for an hour or two. Shop, sit in a park and do nothing, go someplace quiet and have a coffee and read a book. Whatever you want. When you get back, if he asks where you've been, be a little vague, at least at first. Say "Oh, nowhere really, just wanted a little "me" time." If he really pushes, go ahead and tell him. Oh, not moment by moment details, but things like... Oh, I just went to Starbucks, had a coffee, and read my book. If he says "for two hours?" you can say "ummmm.... yes, why?"

The guilty see their own actions in everyone else. If he's cheating again, no doubt he will think you are, and it will drive him crazy. He may even accuse you. The big thing here is - tell the truth. Don't lie to him to make this point, just have a little time to yourself, and then tell him that's what you did. If he gets angry, it will come from guilt about his own actions, not yours.

See how he responds. Sometimes people don't get what you tell them, you have to show them. When he sees how it bothers him, maybe he'll understand why the secretiveness bothers you.

And at any rate, you'll get a little time for yourself....

Everyday I come closer to "letting go"...I do quite well, and then he stops by to work on the taxes or see the girls....and then he acts like he's the boss, gets short with me and the girls....plays and wrestles with the dog, even though the DD's are wrestling each other right next to him....

I understand if I remove myself from him completely it will remove the pain he manages to create in me. When I askd him about the tickets he acted like he didn't know what I was talking about....Did all of your FWH or WH's treat you like they hated you? Did they seem to have absolutely no compassion for you? That is what I don't understand.

Right now I want to do the vacation because I need to get away. I asked him if he could at least try to be aware of the little barbs he throws my way because it makes the DD's uncomfortable. I am looking forward to the pool/hot tub. Long hikes in the hot sunshine.
I know he already plans on sleeping on the floor.
So I think I need to ride out this next week, enjoy the vacation and come back prepared to move forward with my life. Have any of you seperated the finances without doing it legally? I have come down with a bad cold and have gotten very little sleep for the last 3 days. I have the dog and she wakes me up at 6:16 every morning even weekend. Today it was 5:15. My youngest started injections for a genetic disorder yesterday and she is struggling with a lot of her own emotional/physical issues right now.

Can I ask any/all of you out there to say a prayer for my family if it is something you feel comfortable doing? God knows I need it.

Get your finances in line right now. You need to look out for you and your children. When my FWH announced he was moving out I immediately got myself to the bank and opened up my own checking and savings account and had my paycheck going to that account. Luckily we have on-line banking so I could still access his/our checking account and move money each month to pay the mortgage. Before he moved out I sent him a list of our bills and divided up what he would pay, what I would pay and what we would both pay.

When he comes over and starts with you, he is doing it on purpose. He is trying to start a fight with you. Then he can leave and say see we always fight, we don't get along, that's why I had to have an affair and leave. Don't let him do this to you. You can control your response to him, you have to if you want to save this M.

Stop asking about the tickets, what do you expect to accomplish? You are starting fights with him, this is not the way to do Plan A. They all treat you like they hate you and have no compassion. He is following the script. It is his defense mechanism. Don't let it get to you. Think of it as temporary insanity. Use the times he stops by to Plan A him. Make sure the house is clean and inviting, redecorate if necessary, have something that smells good in the oven, be pleasant and fun, laugh with the children, chat up a friend on the phone and discuss fun plans you have so he can hear you, if he starts to pick a fight go into another room.

You can do this, you have to if you really want your M and your family. You do, don't you?

Kloe...I do want this M. I want it more then anything, but I am hurting so bad and I am responding in a defensive mode to my WH. I want his respect more than anything and it pisses me off so bad when he projects everything on to me.

Once again I am afraid that if I made the move to seperate the finances he will say I am trying to control him. He will look at it as a sign that I want to get a D. I am stuck in between trying to save myself and save my marriage. One minute I refuse to be the one to file...the next minute I see that perhaps the only way to end this misery is to do it. As I said...I only want him to treat me with respect....I don't care about the love part right now. I know that I am a good person and I deserve to be treated better.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Did all of your FWH or WH's treat you like they hated you? Did they seem to have absolutely no compassion for you? <hr /></blockquote>YES!!! We have all told you this already. PLEASE try and pull yourself together here, Homer.

Re-read your last reply:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am afraid that if I made the move to seperate the finances he will say I am trying to control him. He will look at it as a sign that I want to get a D. <hr /></blockquote>So, he will think both? You are now a mind-reader? Honestly, you have to start doing what is right for YOU. So what if he thinks you want Plan D? Sometimes, that is the point the WS needs to get to before they start defogging. He already thinks you are trying to control him, and you DO try and control him in many other ways that don't benefit you at all. So what??? You are only making excuses for things you need to do, but you don't WANT to do.

I am not asking you to do anything that I have not done myself, OK? I know first hand how tough all this is. But NOBODY did me any favors on this site coddling me. The ones that lit the fire under my a$$ are the ones I am grateful to for my M recovery TODAY. This IS hard! Nobody said it would be easy. This is not for wimps.

Your WH is NOT going to respect you right now. He is not going to change ANY of his behavior until he is darn good and ready. Plan A might help him along, Plan B might as well. Maybe no Plan will help him. My point is, you cannot CONTROL the way he CHOOSES to treat you. All you can do is CONTROL the number of opportunities he has to treat you with disrespect. If he is coming over to do the taxes, you be gone. Don't work with him. Don't have dinner with him. And for heaven's sake, DO NOT go on vacation with him!!!

Good grief. HOW can that be fun? For anybody??? He is sleeping on the floor? You two will have tension, he will treat you with disrespect, in front of your children. You will demand the respect, that he isn't going to give. Do you think his WS-ness will go away on vacation??? I sure don't.

Please try and really THINK about this stuff, Homer. At this point, if you are engaging with him, IMO, you are giving him more justification/rationalization for his actions. Do you understand what I mean when I say that? If you don't understand WHY we are saying certain things to you, please ask. Because if you continue down the path you are on, I don't think anything is going to get any better for you.

I'm sorry you are going through this. I'm sorry if you feel I am being harsh. But I think you need to have an Oprah "Ah-ha" moment about the dynamics of what you are in. I know you didn't choose it, I know it sucks. But learn from what others have done before you! Don't make every mistake on your own. That is why we are here, to try and save you some heartache, pain, and TIME.

Spidey

You're not going to get his respect right now so stop trying. Right after D-day my FWH and I went to a MC and it was awful. But one thing that came out of it was he didn't respect me at that time and didn't think I could take care of myself. I told this to a few people and they laughed thinking I was kidding. I am an extremely successful business woman at work, and can take care of myself, I've been doing it for a long time. It just part of the standard fog talk. He can't give you respect right now, because for one thing he doesn't respect himself. Part of Plan A is to stop expecting anything from your WS, he is not capable of giving you anything.

First and foremost you have to look out for you, then the M. Take care of your finances, this is not a matter of controlling him. It is showing him the way life will be with him gone. There are consequences to his actions. If you don't look out for yourself, who will? Not your WH.

Right now you need to focus on you and what is good for you. A stronger, more self confident, fun loving you will be more attractive. Focus on getting there. I know how unbearable the pain is, I spent six months crying my eyes out until my entire body ached. BUT it does get better, it does get easier.

Remember lead with your head NOT your heart!

Spider and Kloe...your words speak volumes and I do truely listen and try to impart that wisdom thru this thick skull of mine.

I am going to sit tight on the vacation plans, if it ends up a bust at least I will be prepared. But more importantly I am going home right now to do some serious praying.

Spider you are not too harsh. As you said we all need someone to light that fire. And I take it from you with graciousness. I am going to sart taking one day at a time working on letting go and moving past this pain to a better me. I honestly have no more energy left for WH. Right now I don't want to go to that place he is in...I am sad for him but he has brought this one himself. I will take your advice and not be around when he needs to stop by. He intends to come over tonight to help with DD's injections.
Not sure what to do with that.

Homer - We know this isn't easy, we've been there. It's so easy for us to sit here and tell you what to do, we aren't dealing with all the raw pain. I know I didn't always listen to the advise that was given to me. I was paralized by fear and pain. Looking back there are so many things I would have done differently. You have to do what you feel is right in your situation. We have been through this and luckily Spidey and I were able to save our marriages. Now we want to help other people get there. I hate to see people make the same mistakes I made. We're here for you, just hang in there.

Made plans not to be home when WH came to get the DD's. DD asked where I was going and I told her out with friends. When I got home WH was there waiting for me to help with injection. Of course he did his snotty thing. He gave the shot while I cuddled DD10. She said it was better than the 1st time. Then WH started instructing both of us how we should try it tonight. His instructions included physically having me put my arms around him and him grabbing a hold of my butt. I had to laugh to myself because I couldn't tell if he was trying to be affectionate with me or not.

Anyhow DD's had a good time with WH. He stayed awhile to work on taxes and I went to bed. Didn't hear him leave. I am planning on not contacting him for any reason this week, and letting him do all the work. Although I will have to see him at least twice due to Dr appts and play rehearsals.

Great start, Homer. And if he tries to throw any WS fogspeak at you, like, "Are you punishing me? Why are you ignoring me? Why are you being mean to me?"

Just calmly tell him that you are simply abiding by his wishes. He has moved out, made it clear he wanted some space and time. You are giving that to him, respecting his wishes. And just leave it at that.

I PROMISE you, Homer, this is the FASTEST way for them to find out what they really want. It gives them a real taste for what the future would be like. Because in his mind, most of the time, he truly believes a life without Homer would be better for him. Maybe that is really true, maybe that is fog-thinking. But the fastest way to find out is to give it to him.

Please post things here that he does and says. I expect he will test you. It is funny, but for all the ways they blame us BS's for "controlling" them, they sure do spend a lot of time trying to control US, don't they? But, don't try telling him that, pointing it out to him, or anything. He just can't see it right now.

It is all very normal. I hope that gives you some sort of hope. I used to find it comforting. When I got here, and the vets told me my then-WH was acting perfectly WS-normal, I was relieved. It is part of the sickness, NOT you. And it must run its course.

You are simply speeding up the process by using the techniques you learn here. Take care, and keep posting! That is so important. Especially since something that is devestating to you, we might recognize and say, "Oh, that is normal, continue your plan, on your own path."

Continue to ask God to give you the strength to hear and follow His plan, not your own. He has a Divine Plan of happiness for you. That might be with your H, or without your H. Be still and quiet and listen to Him.

Spidey

[ March 16, 2005, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]

Homer - How are you doing today? What do you have planned just for you?!?

Kloe...thanks for checking in. Last night I attended my Thurs "Reclaiming your life after Divorce/seperation" class. Went out for dinner before hand with classmates. I felt good for once...there was some very attractive men sending me some signals. Made me remember that I am attractive and if WH doesn't want me someone else will (when I'm ready).

Today I am getting ready to have friends over for
a night of cards and games. I am looking forward to it. However as I get closer to Sunday when we leave on vacation, I am getting concerned. Guess I am a little afraid of what will happen in the sense that if WH treats me poorly over the 8 days we are together...it will be my signal that our M is just not meant to be. So I need to remind myself not to be looking for signs or reading anything into what he says or does.

I am concerned about the SF thing. I am almost certain he will avoid that at all costs, but what if he initiates something. Last time we did he felt bad afterwards because he said he realized that he was just using me. Spider said her FWH said that too...I am feeling I should just tell him NO, not until he decides what he is doing in regards to our marriage. But is that an LB?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Guess I am a little afraid of what will happen in the sense that if WH treats me poorly over the 8 days we are together...it will be my signal that our M is just not meant to be. <hr /></blockquote>Homer, let me tell you ~ he WILL treat you poorly on the vacation. He is a fogged-out WS! Even worse, he will be a fogged-out WS who is unable to get a "fix" of his feel-good feelings. I REALLY don't think you should go on this "vacation." I don't know how it can be anything but miserable for everyone involved. Your poor kids, having to be exposed to that, with nowhere for them to get away from it!

My FWH and I and the kids went to Disneyland about a month after he moved home. Even with BOTH of us actively working on rebuilding our M, being in MC, and totally committed to staying together, we had some ROUGH days. Please don't underestimate the damage that has been done. This is not a phase your WH is going through ~ he is very messed up right now. He is not going to just "snap out of it."

If you are looking to his behavior for the answer to if your M will survive or not, or is "meant to be" or not, you are going to be feeling hopeless. One thing I can guarantee is that his behavior is going to be horrible. Does that mean your M isn't "meant to be?" NO! It means he is sick, and needs some time and space to clear his head. And like I have told you, the best way to do that (the fastest way) is to give him what he wants.

My FWH and I did not have SF until he decided to move back home and work on the M. Personally, I don't know how BS's whose H's are still wayward would want SF with them. If your WH wants a D so bad, why does he still want to "use" you for SF? He can't do that if he D's you, so show him NOW the natural consequences for that decision. That is my personal opinion.

I'm glad you are doing all that other stuff, with the class, and the friends, and such. Please do something about the "vacation." I know you already paid and stuff, but, well, some things are just better lost than going through HE!! for, IMO.

Spidey