Silly, silly me...there I was thinking we were not in Recovery!!!! How silly it was to think that you can take away progress! How dumb to think that a mistake takes you back to square one!

We are not at square one, nor have we ever been - not since D-Day. To say that we were at square one after nine months of Recovery or to say that Recovery has been false because mistakes have been made is not only an exaggeration, it's just plain wrong.

I was very mistaken. I didn't understand.

I understand more now.

I understand that just because I don't feel loved doesn't mean that love isn't there. It just means that I am not seeing it. I also understand that just because I am not seeing it at that moment, it doesn't mean that I never will. I thought it did mean I never would, because I didn't believe that the problem lied with my capability to see it. I thought the problem lied with the question of whether or not it was really there. I thought I would never see it because I didn't really believe it was there.

I was wrong about that, too.

It's there.

I see it now. I feel it now.

I just didn't understand it because Patriot spoke German and I spoke Japanese.

In Japanese..."I have been having an affair, but I want to marry you and Recover with you" means...

"I never really did love you, but I'm willing to try to love you."

So, considering that, you can see how I was easily confused.

Tonight, I learned a little bit of German, and now I understand what he has been trying to tell me.

Another thing I learned tonight was that in Japanese..."You need to make him feel safe to be honest with you" means "You need to lie about how you feel or show no emotion so that he can feel safe enough to be honest with you", which, frankly, didn't ever really jibe with me. I suck at lying about how I feel and at hiding my emotions. It was a battle of control that I was losing most of the time.

I think I found a way to do it. I just didn't see it before. I see it now.

I presented it to him as "The Grace Period Rule".

The Grace Period Rule states that I allow Patriot to be imperfect on Conflict-Avoidance. Obviously, if Conflict-Avoidance is his first instinct, it stands to reason that he would first need to be able to practice a new instinct before discarding the old one completely...practicing that new instinct until it became his first instinct. Anyone would make a mistake.

What I did, without realizing it, was setting him up to fail and then punishing him for it. How could he win? How could I expect any other result? I was telling him "I will allow you room for growth and mistakes, but if you make a mistake I will punish you for it." I was offering him a system that was flawed from the start.

So, I offered him a new one. We are going to try it out and watch for bugs until we perfect it. I guess that means that we are going to allow the new system room for growth and mistakes, too.

The new system is this:

If Patriot reacts to conflict by being dishonest, when he comes to me and tells me the truth he isn't punished for reacting with his first instinct. It may take a very long time before it no longer is his first instinct. He is definitely worth the wait. I also think that it is the very least I can offer him, considering how patient and forgiving he is with my mistakes.

I didn't realize I was setting a trap for him. If I would have known, I would have stopped. If I had known how to stop hurting him, I would have. I do know now, so I will stop.

By the same token, I felt like he has been hurting me. I didn't realize that if he knew how, he would stop. He has been trying to stop all along, he just wasn't perfect at it. I punished him for it and he still kept trying. I see that now, but I didn't before.

I now see that in German, that translates to "I love you and I will not give up on us."

I wish I could have understood that before now, but I didn't.

I have more Recovery progress to report, but that is enough for tonight.

I am very excited. I have often stated here that I have nothing to look forward to.

I do now.

I look forward to learning a little bit of German, because am excited about the first two things I want to learn to say to him...

I love you

and

I respect you.


Froz <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Frozen I'm glad to hear you guys are hanging in there. I might be able to help you a little with the German "Ich liebe dich" (forgive spelling) I love you ...I have no clue about Japanese but the next time he walks in the room smile at him, walk up to him look him straight in the eye and give him a warm wet kiss...I think he'll get it. that's international language.

Good luck and best wishes for your journey. I'll be following your journal

froz - this is awesome to read. Sprint and I had to learn a little Japanese and German too, and for the first time in SOOO long things are good and we are making steady, but great progress.

(((HUGS))) to you guys and Sprint says hi!

Frozen
how very insiteful. Great journal, i am not familiar with your story...how long did it take you to get to enlightenment?

LT

35 years...

Dorry,

So glad to hear of the progress you two are making!

I have discovered that the form of Japanese I have been speaking is a broken, not widely-spoken dialect.

It's no wonder I didn't understand what anyone was saying to me!

I have begun to think more and more about this concept, and I find it quite mind-boggling. It amazes me how it has shifted my perception on just about every level.

I find it very sad that I have been walking around feeling unloved my entire life, when in fact, I was just misunderstanding. I think perhaps I was wrong about my mother. I think she does love me. I think she made mistakes, and she doesn't love the way I love, but she does love me. It didn't recognize it as such.

It also really changes things about the A. It is still painful, but it isn't nearly as painful when I view it through the perspective that he didn't specifically set out to hurt me and that, yes, it is possible that he loved me during the A. It would not have been possible for me, and that's why I didn't understand it. Patriot doesn't love the same way I do, either.

My language has been very black and white. Words in my dialect have had no alternate meanings. Love had one definition. I realize now that that isn't necessarily so for everyone.

It has changed things such as my defensiveness of my children, if Patriot says anything negative about them or criticizes them in any way.

Because, all along, the truth was that I feared he didn't love me, even before the A. I reacted so defensively because I viewed it as a rejection, based on the fear that he didn't love me.

Yesterday, he mentioned a potential problem with my son. I understood and was very able to view it objectively. I didn't even feel defensive without that element present.

I also noticed that I don't feel as threatened if he wants to spend time doing something else. I think that if I would have believed that he loved me all along, there would have been a lot less friction...oh yeah, and also I would have felt loved. That would have been nice. I wish I wouldn't have robbed myself of that.

I have made many mistakes. Patriot has obviously made his fair share of them, too. We didn't know any better. Now we do. I am not thrilled with the road we took to get here, but I am glad we are here, nonetheless.

I feel very grateful for the special person that my H is, and very grateful for his love.

I am also grateful for our dear friend, Miss Sally, who just happened to speak a few words of my broken dialect, and helped me understand that everyone wasn't speaking the same language.

Everyone else was probably trying to tell me (Pep - did I say that out loud?), and I just wasn't understanding the words.

Froz

Froz ~ you've made a breakthrough insight. You are right, we all speak different love languages. That's really only half the equation though!

Part of recovery is recognizing that your spouse's needs are different than yours. What you were suffering from was unfulfilled, unrealistic expectations, which led to great anger and depression.

The other part is learning your spouse's love language and doing those things. If your spouse speaks German, you learn German and speak German to fill your spouse's needs.

If you speak Japanese, your spouse needs to learn Japanese and speak it to you. If you speak Japanese, you have the right to get loved in Japanese!

It's good to realize that you speak Japanese, and your husband was speaking German to you all this time, in an effort to express love. Yes, he really does love you. But he needs to learn Japanese to make you feel loved, instead of forcing you to learn German. And vice versa.

My husband and I used the book The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate along with our MB workbook in recovery.

It explains the same exact MB concepts we use here, just in a different "language" that may be easier for you to 'get'.

BR,

I have the book. Perhaps Patriot and I could read it together soon.

I understand what you mean about Love Languages. We seem to be pretty adept at meeting each others needs. I think LB's and communication have been bigger obstacles for us.

I guess I was loosely using the term 'languages' regarding perception, meaning...it didn't matter what language he was speaking. I really don't know that anyone spoke my language. It would have been impossible for anyone to love me given that I had such a narrow-minded perception on what love really was.

I am very interested in reading the book you mentioned, though. It has been recommended to me before. Perhaps it could expound on some of the things I mentioned above that I have learned.

Awesome Froz - no wonder you and Sprint got along, you both spoke broken Japanese. He expanded his vocabulary when he left and got the lightbulb in his head. I had already been brushing up on my Japanese, and continued my skills now...

Both Sprint and I were trying, but neither of us could see us trying as it wasn't in eachother's languages..it was my MOM that forced us to start really listening and hear what eachother is saying, as we were both saying what eachother wanted to hear, but in our own ways.

Sprint also realized how black and white his dialect was. He was basing his recovery on a definition of words that had no room for other interpretations - like love, commitment. Commitment to him was faithfulness and nothing else. Once he figured out the words are more than just that, he sees the 8 months of work i did, and still taking him back after all the recent events, and looks at that as commitment, sticking it through all the tough times and never leaving - even when the A ended for me and i could have left. He's starting to see less and less black and white.

Dont ya love Sally - she broke through my communication barriers too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> taught me how to talk to Sprint before Sprint started making his changes. It's been amazing for us - Sally you are the communication Queen! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> lol

Froz I am so happy you have had this breakthrough. I know the road ahead is still long, but I am so happy that there is still a road for you guys to journey on together.

Dorry,

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I find it sad, really, that Sprint and I deprived ourselves of love that was ours for the taking, if only we'd have recognized it for what it truly was. But, isn't it great that it's not too late???

I feel very blessed, as I'd bet Sprint does, to have such a loving, patient spouse.

I look back now and feel sorry that Patriot was trying so hard to love me. I threw that love back at him, rejecting it, because it didn't fit my picture of what love was (very black and white). I think about how he must have felt very rejected and how rude it was of me to toss away his precious gift. I think about how diligent he was after the A, trudging uphill...while I blasted him for his imperfections and used them as proof that his love wasn't real because it wasn't like mine. How self-righteous!

I have a lot of personal work to do.

Hi Froz ~ the book is not the complete answer....I think that a huge part of the problem is expectations. When our unrealistic expectations are not met, it results in a huge amount of anger - which unresolved becomes depression.

This is where you have to really look at you, and see if some of your love language issues are really and truely unrealistic expectations. If that is the case, then you need to adjust those.

I can tell you a story about me and my husband...

We had been married maybe 3 years...and I had huge expectations that truely interfered in my ability to feel loved by my husband.

So ... the week before my birthday approached...and my husband TOLD me (a huge No NO in my book because if he loved me he would keep it secret and surprise me) that he was going birthday shopping. Strike 1.

Then he got in the car and left. He showed back up at the house an hour later. Strike 2. (he didn't spend enough time shopping for me, so I believed he didn't care. If he really loved me it would have taken ALL AFTERNOON to find the right gift!)

Then he really screwed up. He came in the house and told me that while he was at the mall, the car was vandalized and I had to go out side and look in the car to see it. I gasped, ran outside, and found the car unharmed, but a beautiful leather handbag and a bottle of perfume sitting on the car seat. Strikes 3, and 4 (lol and these don't count the lame story to get me outside). Oh boy was he in trouble now.

You see, it was a week early. He obviously didnt love me because he didn't wait for my birthday, he just wanted to 'get it over with'. And it wasn't wrapped, so again, he just didn't care.

I was convinced by this enter episode that my husband hated me.

Guess what the truth was? My husband was head over heels in love, and was so excited about his gift for me that he couldn't wait for my birthday to see my face.

It was about half way through his affair, as I was working my 12 step program with my sponsor, when I became aware of just how devastating my angry love busting response to his excited gesture of love must have been to him. I was so horrified by my sheer blindness.

My husband had no way of understanding my needs. My needs were so incredibly exacting, that I doubt there was any humanly possible way of meeting them. Part of my growth was to learn what was a healthy need, and what was just plain controlling and unrealistic.

So Froz, think about both. You and Patriot have to learn to speak the other's language. But you might want to look harder into yourself and see if you have expectations that should be readjusted.

I know just what you mean!!!!

Yours was a perfect example of what I was talking about.

I don't know how I could have been so blind and just plain cruel.


That is precisely what I was doing.



This is good advice. I think awareness is a key point. Once you become aware of the behavior, it shifts your perspective quite a bit and prevents the same behaviors from recurring. I do realize that it will take more than just awareness. It will take learning new behaviors to replace the old. Any tools or information you have, I will hungrily dive into.

I really just can't get over what a self-righteous fool I've been. I really did think there was nothing wrong with me. I wondered what was wrong with the whole world, that they could be so unkind and unloving while I, of course, was so giving and unselfish...

How did someone not want to knock me off my high-horse?

you weren't being self -righteous lady - you were hurt and trying to figure things out. You are one great woman and don't forget that!

Not my intention to self-bash, Dorry, but it's true. If I wasn't giving off that impression, I was thinking it.

I am human, therefore imperfect. All I can do is strive to correct the things I am aware of.

It just occurred to me..what if there is some other GIANT thing causing me problems that I don't see now? I sure didn't think there was one before.

UGH!

What progress. Some walls between my wife and I have seemed to come crashing down and are no longer keeping us apart. I am so grateful for that.

One of the first things I want to do with my wife in our Recovery from this point is identify some books for us to read and discuss the ideas in them. The love languages book sure seems to apply. Also, readings from the Bible need to be included.

I feel exhilerated about the new realizations Froz has made because it opens doors for me that allow me to be a better husband for her...and that is what I have been trying to do.

I do wish she wasn't so hard on herself because people make mistakes. The best thing is to learn from them and move forward. But, I understand the need, sometimes, to beat one's self up. I have done it. Often.

Also, I am going to work on focusing 15 hours a week on my wife..which really doesn't seem that hard. I think there were times I was spending time that "didn't count" or some such thing... but she and I have certainly seemed to overcome some real obstacles recently.

Having her tell me that she actually felt loved by me was so huge, I can't even describe it. I look forward to making her happy.

So, I will do some work over the next few days or weeks... and then I will report back with what I have.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Froz ~ No one can just hand you any of this to you. You can't "hear" what we say to you until you are ready.

I can suggest a couple of things however. 1 is that you are very angry. And I don't think all of your anger is about Patriot. Again, I'm going to suggest you work on uncovering the source(s) of your anger. Unfulfilled, unrealistic expectations are one source of anger. Why do you have the expectations that you have? Where did you learn that behavior?

I don't know alot about you. What I do know is that twice in your life you have picked men that have problems with honesty and act out sexually. I sincerely doubt this was a coincidence.

What is it about you that finds those qualities in a man "normal" and "comfortable"?

You are very fortunate that Patriot has decided to take responsibility for his problems. While he is doing so, you should have plenty of free time to explore yours.

I suspect that your anger and your tendency to pick the men you have picked are probably related. I also would be willing to bet it started back in childhood.

For me, a 12 step program helped me uncover my answers to those questions. I learned alot about me ~ and alot about me in a relationship ~ by doing so.

BR,

You pose some very interesting questions. Most of them are things I have thought of, but haven't really arrived at any conclusions about.


I haven't ever really been angry like this before. This is definitely a new emotion to me, at least anger to this extent and for this duration. I have always been quicker to identify the underlying emotion, rather than the secondary emotion - anger. Maybe this was just the final straw in a long line of betrayals.




I have been thinking about this one myself, and I honestly have no idea where I learned that behavior. I don't know that anyone in my family has that sort of perception. I have always identified it as 'sensitive', or lacking a thick skin. Now I see that it was really my perception that was causing things to be more painful, rather than a lack of thick skin.



Well, I guess it is more of a pattern than you think, because I have picked three men, such as you described.
Maybe it isn't a coincidence...I don't know. I know that I don't find anything normal or comfortable about it at all. There is no family history of that kind of thing. I wasn't sexually abused as a child or anything like that. I have no idea. I figured it was poor judgement or back luck.

I really wish I had the answers to your questions. I have racked my brain about this, and I got nothin'.

Froz ~

I can tell you about my experiences, and you can take what you like and leave the rest.

I didn't know I was angry for years and years. Not only that, but I had no idea I had a reason(s) to be angry.

My discovery unfolded slowly.


At first, when I started to explore anger, I was angry at my husband. He was my active alcoholic and he was having an affair. I understood that my parents were the root of my problems, but I didn't think I felt anger towards them. It took time, and as I peeled back the layers of the onion that was me, I found depths of anger I had never known were there.

Anger at my father surfaced. My father actively committed pyschological warfare on us children as his form of parenting..... and yet...later, much later, I found myself exploding in anger at my mother, who to this day, still manipulates, appeases, controls and refuses to let go of anything she thinks she can affect.

My view on my childhood and my parents is much much different than it was 10 years ago.


I can tell you there was a very long time in my life that I thought my childhood and parents were perfect.

I can tell you that as I began working the 12 steps, and really addressing who I was and challenging the "truths" that I belived, that I realized that not only was my "perfect" and "normal" family riddled with alcoholism, but that it was also riddled with sexual dysfunction.

There was no drinking in my childhood home. But the problem was deeper. Both of my grandfathers (which I never knew) were raging violent alcoholics. This was a deep dark family secret. (Hint: if your family keeps secrets...or has issues that sit like a giant invisible elephant in the middle of family gatherings - everyone is aware but no one acknowledges, you probably have issues to explore). My parents never sought help. They took the emotional and spiritual lessons they had grown up with under the threat of violent alcoholism, and imposed those lessons on us children. Even more insidious...there was sexual abuse in my parent's family. It gave my parents a very twisted unhealthy attitude about sex, one that was on one hand, incrediblely strict and yet very blind. My uncle's sexual molestation of my younger siblings was hushed up and covered up. He had probably been a victim of incest by his mother (my grandmother). I knew nothing of this until roughly 3 or 4 years ago.

So my point is....I never experienced, or so I thought, the effects of someone's drinking because no one drank in my childhood home.

My parents had a great marriage too, I thought. What I know now is that my father had one EA after another and was emotionally unavailable to my mother.

And I went on to marry an emotionally unavailable alcoholic because that is what I knew.


There are no coincidences.

I am the oldest of 10 children.

6 of my 9 siblings have become alcoholics, or have married them, or even worse, have done both. Of the other 3, one is dead at age 19, one is still living at home, and the other is taking serious note of her siblings issues and is getting help before getting into a serious relationship.

This is not bad judgement or bad luck.

This is being attracted to what you know, even though you may not understand or know what it is that feels normal.

I guarantee, that there is some reason, maybe not apparent now, that has lead to your choices in men.

Oh and by the way...

Frozen is an interesting handle dontcha think?

I don't know why you picked it. But it screams anger to me.

My Al-anon sponsor asked me to describe the color of my anger once.

She told me that her anger was red, HUGE deep bloodthirsty raging red. She was horribly afraid of it because it was so powerful that she was afraid she'd be overwhelmed by it.

I told her, that my anger was black. Deep, dark fathomless black of a black hole....that I was terrified would suck me in and never let me go.

What is your anger like?

I thank you for sharing your experiences with me. I would take it all if I understood it. I will not discard anything, because I really would like to understand the patterns of behavior such as you described.

As far as abuse or a history of something underlying in my family...

I am pretty sure there isn't a history of sexual abuse. Both of my parent's are COA. My brother experimented for a very brief time with drugs and alcohol when he was 15. I was 13 at the time.

My parents swiftly admitted him to a treatment facility, where we all participated as a family in activites such as Aftercare (we children called it Afterscare), Alanon, Alateen...you name it. I am very familiar with the 12 steps.
I don't know that my brother's issue was necessarily alcoholism. From what I have been taught about alcoholism as a disease, it appears to be something more along the lines of teenage experimentation. He hasn't had a problem with it since that time and has grown to be quite a healthy adult.

Since you stated that you are not familiar with my story, it may or may not be relevant to tell you that I am adopted. I am one of four children and the only non-biological child. So, I don't know how much that affects the family history angle. Perhaps you viewed it more from a genetic aspect, and perhaps you refer more to learned behaviors, or both. I have no clue what my biological family history is regarding these two issues.

My mother was very emotionally abusive towards me, but not necessarily towards the other children.

I am very confused today and kind of struggling with what is reality and what is my perception. I am a person who relies quite a bit on intuition and feelings, so when my sense of perception feels off balance I have a hard time determining what is reality. I would offer the analogy of glasses. The last few days I have learned that there was something wrong with my 'glasses'. So I have taken them off. Well, now I can't see a darned thing! I feel like I'm walking around blind!

So, everything is not necessarily how I feel...then how is it???

For instance, I told you that I believe my mother was emotionally abusive towards me. Was she??? Or was that just my perception??? It's all very confusing.

I got angry with Patriot earlier this evening because I feel somewhat neglected lately. I feel I have been very patient the last few days and haven't jumped to any conclusions that it meant anything other than the fact that he was busy.

Well, it has continued and I have become angry. I get tired sometimes of explaining to him that I always seem to be the one who wants more time. Why doesn't he? I honestly think that he would just make do with whatever time I offered him. I think he is glad when I am busy or gone because he gets to spend his time doing whatever he wants.

He also wants to make sure his time 'counts'. That kind of got me bristly, because it makes it sound as though I am his boss trying to dock his time card or something.

It makes me feel very unspecial and unimportant.

So, I tell him and he offers to try harder to spend more time with me. The first thought that pops into my head, of course, is "Why would you have to try if you wanted to???" This always seems to be the rule, not the exception. It makes me feel particularly rejected when I know that this was not the case in other relationships that he has had. Most often, it seems as though he was the one pursuing and wanting more time.

So, capitulating that just because I feel rejected, doesn't make it necessarily so...how am I supposed to tell the difference???



I sure wish I knew.

My first husband was physically abusive and an alcoholic/drug addict. I always surmised that I stayed in that relationship because I somehow believed it was what I deserved because of my feelings of betrayal regarding my adoptive and birth mothers.

My second husband (the child molester), was merely emotionally unavailable, as far as I knew. In retrospect, I see some minor red flags of sexual deviancy, but it wasn't very apparent. I had no idea the extent to which he was sick. As soon as I knew, the relationship ended and I haven't spoken with him since.

As far as Patriot goes, I saw nothing. I still don't have a very objective view of what the heck went wrong.

I'm trying to grab at this stuff tonight and my brain is getting jumbled. I want to understand it all, but I don't. I kind of wish I could put my glasses back on. Seeing something, however distorted, felt more comfortable than seeing absolutely nothing.

Froz ~ I am headed to bed now, so I'll reply to you a bit more tomorrow.

I just want you to know, that I experienced the same disorientation - and still do sometimes. It takes time to rebuild a sense of confidence in a new value system, and thats really what you are starting to do...by tearing down the old ways of thinking and trying something new.

You will be OK. And it sounds to me like Quality Time is not one of Pat's love languages but it is yours. If he loves you, he'll learn it. Love doesn't give him instant knowledge of what you need and crave from him, he can't know it or act on it until you let him in and show him. This takes time.

Is it? I chose it a long time ago for an e-bay account, after I found out my ex-husband had been abusing my daughter. That is how I felt inside at the time - frozen with shock, frozen with fear...

It was the first name that came to mind when I registered at this site.

My anger is purple. It's like an ugly purple bruise, or maybe a vein. It makes my skin bristle.

I also should mention that I haven't taken my hormones for a few days. I don't know how much that plays into my feelings today.

Froz,

I am so happy for your recent progress.

Truly.

Just remember that too much energy spent figuring out what happened has value to learn some life lessons, but don't let it take precedence of your choices to be happy now.

NCW

Gotta read that book.

NCWalker,




That is so astute...I think I could use it for my new quote. Would you mind? I think, with reference to people quoting you...it's really more a matter of WHICH astounding tapestry of words you type to choose from, since everything you say is so notable.

Thanks for the compliment Froz. But you know I am just teasing your husband because I like him so much. - NCW

Okay, well I guess everthing you say is not so astute, but if there is one thing I've learned, it's that everyone makes mistakes (maybe you could use that one..."everyone makes mistakes"?)

ETA: Kinda not fair that Mr. Walker chose to change his above post. It read much more venomous in it's original form. Why ya tryin' to make me look bad????

lol you two are very entertaining tonight - giving me something to smile about while I miss my sprint

I'm sorry. Didn't think me liking your husband would engender that response. - NCW

Hi dorry.

Froz and Patriot are trying to double-team me and I fear they cannot. In fact, I have been made painfully aware that "It's all about Patriot...."

(GAG)

isn't it always all about the man? (roll of eyes)

Well, everyone knows I am a hateful cuss. Thank you for pointing that out so subtly.

I didn't realize Patriot was participating in this conversation.

Maybe someone needs to look at their jealousy issues?????

To quote my genius husband...thank you Mr. Walker for turning our Recovery thread into Idiotville IV. (Wow, he really does have some great stuff, doesn't he?)

Some call it a mistake.

Some call it a well laid trap.

Just ask KiwiJ.

And as "The Godfather of Idiotville" I am free to edit my posts as I see fit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I didn't know you were a hateful cuss - that is news to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - I have only seen the wonderful side of you - and I am being dead serious too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You have always been kind to me - even when you are being a hermit.

Back to Froz,

HOW ARE YOU tonight my dear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sprint asked me yesterday how you were doing and I said - I think they are gonna be okay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> he was happy to hear that.

I do have a habit of being a hermit, Dorry.

Thanks for taking up for me when Mr. Walker is so obviously out to get me. I think he wants to smear my good name as Mrs. Patriot.

Yes, I did notice that you said someone called you the "Godfather of Idiotville". Let's see, who was it??? Oh yeah, I believe you are quoting my husband again! Would you stop it already!!!

I have sure seen worse days, Dorry.

Tell Sprint hello for me. Sorry you are missing him.

Froz,

I have to thank you so much for your post. I am struggling with the exact same feelings of not being loved as you. I have been thinking that maybe my wife cannot love, that her feeling are so shallow since I do not see love all the time. I was just starting to think that maybe it was me and not her or everyone else that I have feelings for. You have opened my eyes to a new possiblity that makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

I will say hi - he is coming online soon at the motel...so you can say hi too when you see him sign on!

Exagilent,

I'm so glad anything I shared might have helped you. It's very lonely feeling misunderstood or unloved. It's a shame to me that it was something I was creating myself, however innocent it may have been. It was a behavior that has been harmful to me and those who have tried to love me.

I hope you can also read BR's responses and apply them to yourself. I'm still racking my brain over some of the questions. It's difficult stuff to analyze objectively.

First book assignment. HNHN. I have had it for a while and read most of it... but I am starting over. Life was fairly conflicted when I was reading it before and I think now that new ideas and open minds are in, with LBs being out, my mind would have a better perspective on the info in it.

I was reading the chapter on Domestic Support last night and it was enlightening to me about MY OWN needs. Which is interesting to me because I was just assuming it would help me meet Slushy's needs.

Anyway... first book. It is a short one, so maybe I can get it done soon.

Ha ha...Slushy. That's very funny, Mr. Funnyman. Can I quote you on that???? I know how you love to be quoted!



Is that your way of communicating to me that you'd like me to actually clean house and do laundry??? I will do it this weekend. I've been busy from vacation. Sorry about that.

no silly. I am not trying to be 'subtle' like Mr. Walker.

I am really thinking outside the box on this one... you know... trying to learn the "ways of the world" or whatever...

NOW GET TO WORK!!!

(i'm dead now...)

Hi Froz ~


Well....it sounds to me like you may have learned some expectations about what love is and isn't from your experiences with your Mom.

I know that growing up with emotionally unavailable and very psychological and sometimes physically abusive parents made me a very lonely little girl. My parents did everything literally that they could to isolate me from other people.

I craved love but came to believe that love was for other people, lucky people, better more deserving people. I knew I wasn't loved, but that doesn't mean I knew really what it was because I didn't experience it for myself. So many of my preconceptions about love came from my childish love-starved imagination. I was a blind person guessing what a color might be like.

As an adult, I had spent so much time imagining and craving what I didn't have, that even the slightest deviation from what I imagined love was "supposed to be" threw me into anger, hurt and depression.

I developed a very intensely private inner life that no one knew about. Sharing my most private dreams and desires never happened with anyone. I learned from my parents that to be emotionally vulnerable was to be opened up to ridicule and assault for my feelings.

So....when I became old enough to obtain love for myself....an emotionally unavailable man became a safe haven for me. I was love-starved, needy, and desperate for what I imagined love was, and yet, not willing to open up completely to anyone. Lucky me, I didn't have to with an emotionally unavailable choice in partners. This is what I mean by "normal". We human beings don't tend to go out and pick people that make us uncomfortable. We pick what we know.


Perception is reality. For how long was Patriot trying to love you - and yet you didn't feel it? The reality is that you did not feel loved. Yes Patriot did love you, but what you felt is what you felt.

You did not feel loved by your mother, you felt abused. That is your reality. It is what it is.

Keep working at this,you will begin to rebuild confidence in yourself and your intuition. Some of this Patriot can help with by becoming sensitive to your needs and cheerfully meeting those needs.

I also want to point out - 15 hours of Quality Time is a bare minimum requirement to keep a good marriage steady. You both need to be spending alot more Quality Time than 15 hours a week while struggling to recover.

Patriot, if you are serious about recovery, and serious about loving your wife, you need to take some initiative here.

Hi,

I just wanted to stop in and say I've been lurking on this thread. Lightly lurking I might add - because I find it so meaningful that I can only stand so much enlightment.

Too much enlightment all at once can be blinding!!! Keep it up everyone - especially the humor!!

BR,

Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with me. Watching you reflect on your history enables me to better reflect on my own.



I know just what you mean. Perhaps the pattern in the relationships I've chosen has more to do with the emotional unavailability than the sexual dysfunction. Maybe the emotional unavailability is present as a result of some dysfunction, but it isn't what holds the primary interest for me.

It's so very difficult to look objectively at that. As I look back, I can see that there may be a pattern, but I wasn't aware that these men were unavailable to me emotionally until much, much later in the relationship. How did I end up with them in the first place? I can see perhaps why I maintained the relationship - maybe I was re-enacting the relationship with my mother and obtaining their love and acceptance would somehow be filling that need for me that I craved, not having received it as a child.

Unlike you, though, I began to isolate myself because I felt so different from everyone in my family. In a lot of ways, I was different. Instead of being regarded as special because of my individuality, I was shamed and ridiculed for it. I sat on the sidelines as I observed my siblings receiving my mother's praise and attention. I wanted it so badly. I never understood why she could give it to them, but not to me. I always figured it was because I wasn't her "real" child and they were.

When I became pregnant with my daughter at 17, I feared that my parents wouldn't love her either, being that she wasn't their "real" grandchild. I completely expected it. Instead, she was and always has been their darling, even above subsequent, biological grandchildren. It only confirmed for me that it wasn't necessarily my birth circumstances, it was personal. I must be unlovable.

I always dreamed that one day I would find my birth mother, and there would be the one person who would really understand, accept, and love me. I did find her, and it was hardly the case. She completely rejected me. Again...unlovable.




I can completely identify with this.



With this also. Receiving these things has been the ENTIRE focus of my life and the basis for EVERYTHING I do...almost like an obsession.

I have definitely never been afraid to open up, though. In fact, I don't know that I could have been more open in my adult relationships. I don't know why.

I understand what you mean about perception/reality. I would very much like for my perception AND my reality to be different.

CSue,

Thanks for interjecting your "review". I am gaining so much from this conversation that I almost feel selfish. I was afraid that it was a deviation from Marriage Building and may be uninteresting and inapplicable to the general population. I'm so glad to know that it is enlightening for someone else.

As far as the humor...It seems I have some very silly friends.

I have made some friends here who are so valuable to me, and there are so many here who have made such in impact in my life. I find it kind of funny that they are all people I haven't ever really met. Maybe someday, that won't be the case.

Slushy

(a joke from Idiotville - someone said I was beginning to thaw and should change my name)

CSue,

Forgot to add that I think I may know the unknown author you quote in your sig.

I believe it was Patriot who originally said "The actions you speak are louder than your words".

I think NCWalker said it sometime later...I guess he didn't know he was quoting Patriot again.

Emotional unavailability, in my experience (and I am not a professional), is usually a symptom of some other underlying dysfunction. Emotional unavailablity is a coping mechanism, often learned in childhood, and if not replaced in adulthood by healthier coping mechanisms and boundaries, becomes a way of life.


This is exactly my question to you. I had the same question asked to me by my sponsor. I didn't know for a very long time. Eventually, I came to understand that my need for love was so overwhelming, my self-respect was so underwhelming, that I either ignored red-flags, or did not know the red flags were red.

The bottom line is however, that I was attracted to what I knew. What I knew, even though I was not aware of it, was the cunning, baffling disease of alcoholism.


Well...I don't know.

I think self-will is part of the problem here ~ and interestingly enough is the source of much of your anger.

I was attracted to my alcoholic husband because he was what I knew.

I stayed because I was determined to have my way. I refused to acknowledge what he was (denial), and did everything in my power to force him to being who I wanted him to be.

In otherwords, I kept going back to the hardware store, trying to obtain bread and milk. Rather than acknowledge the reality of the fact that the store was a hardware store, I kept going inside and beating up the clerk with my demands that he provide me with bread and milk, even though he had only hammers and nails to offer! And of course, when offered hammers and nails, I became incredibly ANGRY. If the clerk would just listen to me and do it MY WAY....everything would be just dandy and I could be happy.

Much of my anger came from my feelings of rejection and frustration when other people did not go along with my rigid ideas about how things should be.

I never recognized that the problem might have been with my preconceived notions about how things 'should be' and my obsessive need to control everything around me in an attempt to make things into how I thought they 'should be'.

If I could just get every one and everything around me to fall into line, then I could get what I needed and the world would be right.

I set myself up for failure with these behaviors.


Just a thought...maybe, just maybe, it wasn't about you. Sometimes, in dysfunctional families, one person becomes the focus (if we could just fix Billy, he's such a troublemaker, this family could be happy). It is a mechanism used for denial and to avoid looking deeper into what is probably a family issue.


Again, maybe it wasn't about you. Maybe it was about your mother's shortcomings that left her unable or unwilling to love you. Children do tend to make their parent's failings to be about themselves....do you think maybe thats what you did?


You have left out your relationship with your dad. Pregnancy at 17 is a pretty big red flag don'tcha think?


Again, hon, this sounds more like a personal problem on your parent's end. It just isn't about you.

Let me put it this way. It hurts me when my husband drinks. I hate what it does to him, I hate the barriers it puts between us, I fear his death, I fear the pain of his death on our children. My husband knows I feel this way. He continues to drink anyway. Old me would have assumed that this is because he does not love me. That if I were better, more lovable, he would quit drinking to stop my pain and fear. The new me however, knows that his drinking has nothing to do with me. I know that he has a disease that drives him to drink, and that his disease is far more powerful than me.

Your parents may not have been able to love you the way you needed and deserved it. There could be and probably are a multitude of reasons why they could not. None of those reasons were that you were unlovable.


And again, not about you. It was about HER and her own shortcomings that left her unable to love you. One possible scenario is that it had more to do with the fact that giving up her child for adoption was a horribly difficult, incredibly devastating event. She probably spent years of guilt and wondering if you were OK and if she did the right thing. Maybe she felt she should have kept you but was too weak or unable to stand up in the face of disapproval from family and society. And eventually she managed to put those feelings aside somehow. And there you came, bringing all that stuff back. And if you showed up, needy, desperate for her love because you had not been given the love you needed...you think maybe it made her feel terribly guilty, that her fears and guilt were true?

Rejecting you may have been her quickest way to feeling better. Terribly selfish, lacking in human compassion...but again, not about your "lovability".


Fear of not being lovable is a very powerful fear.

When we attempt to control things (force others to do and be what we want them to be), it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. By our attempts to gain what we crave (love), we become our fear (unlovable).

I was just going to let this go, because I am not sure you will "hear" what I am saying, but let me take a crack at it.


Did you really? I suspect that you may think you have, but this simply isn't the case.

Did you tell Patriot of your deep fear of being unlovable? Did you tell him that you were terrified that he would reject you too? Did you tell him that his actions made you feel rejected and unlovable? Did you tell him of the horrible pain and hurt you experienced by your parent's rejections? And did you tell him exactly what he needed to do to meet your emotional needs to feel loved without selfish demands and control through guilt and manipulation?

Or did you expect that if Patriot loved you, he would understand, and do XYZ, and in forming those expectations of him, and making judgements and assumptions about his motives (as I did with my husband's birthday gift) did you set him up for failure?

You are also carrying baggage from 2 failed relationships....and I have to wonder Froz, did you make those men's problems about you too? This is your pattern. Did you tell Patriot that you feared that you were not good enough for marriage and that you were terrified that another failure would only confirm your unlovable nature?

Were you open and honest - or were you controlling and manipulative in an attempt to force what you needed from Patriot, and in doing so, drive him away?

One further question for you to think about....

Given that you believe, due to other people's actions, that you are unlovable...

Do you think that you feeling "less than" deserving resulted in your lowering the standards bar when choosing men?

I guess I was just saying that even though emotional unavailability is a common denominator for underlying dysfunction, perhaps it was the unavailability that
was the attraction for me, rather than the underlying dysfunction.



I don't know the answer. It's so hard to be objective, though I'm really trying very hard.

I definitely saw red flags in my first marriage. He was abusive before we were married. But, I was 19. It was the typical "co-dependent" behavior of thinking I could change him, etc...allowing myself to be controlled and manipulated because I was so naive that I believed that he wouldn't react so strongly if he didn't love me. I definitely learned from that mistake.

In my second marriage, I did see red flags. I knew that he was emotionally unavailable before I married him. In hindsight, as I said before, I see red flags that there was some sexual dysfunction but no indication that he was that
sick. I feel so responsible for that. This morning after I read your response, I was thinking that if only I hadn't been so screwed up, I could have saved my daughter from so much pain. I feel really bad that I haven't been a better
mother, and that so many of my decisions have impacted both of my children's lives in such a negative way.



Quite funny that you say this. Right after my second divorce one of my friends asked me why I kept going to the Vanilla Ice Cream store requesting chocolate. She told me that they only had vanilla to offer me.

I really thought Patriot was my chocolate. This time I thought I was really paying attention. If there were any red flags, I don't know them. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 (you can use that quote if you'd like, NCWalker). So now I
can spot an abuser a mile away. I know the red flags of a child molester. I can spot those a mile away, too. But, I don't know how to recognize Patriot's red flags.




I'm not sure I understand what you mean by self-will.



Of course I see now that's what I did. In my mid-20's, I think I began to recognize that on an intellectual level. But, believing it on an emotional level is something entirely different. I try to remind myself of that, but as you said - there are no coincidences. Surely, since so many people were saying the same thing - they couldn't all be wrong. At least I think that's what I told myself.




I'm not sure what you mean by this. How did I leave out my relationship with my dad? Yes, pregnancy at 17 would be a red flag that some sort of problem exists.




Yes, I know. What you say makes sense.




Most definitely this is precisely what happened. She told me she felt guilty. I was so willing to forget about all of it. Instead, she only reinforced my feelings of rejection by actually rejecting me as an adult. I never understood that. Her decision as a teenager (she was 19) was understandable and could be explained (she was young, etc...). But, when I called her on the phone as an adult and she openly rejected me because she felt guilty, how is that supposed to relieve her feelings of guilt? What you say about it being the quickest way to relieve those feelings makes sense. It's such a shame, though. I wish she would have been strong enough to face those feelings instead of hurting me. I really do.



Perhaps this has been my cycle of behavior all along - the reinforcement of those beliefs. What a weird way to be.

If I haven't told you, thank you for being my "virtual therpist". It helps me tremendously to be able to bounce this stuff off of someone who can be more objective. Thank you for taking the time. I really do appreciate it.

I will definitely try to hear you. I'm glad you took a risk and threw it out there, anyway.


I really do think I have been open.


In no uncertain terms.



Yes.




Yes.



Yes.




Yes, on this one...though "yes" isn't exactly the right answer. I will say that if I'd known how, I might have. I didn't know how. I was just trying to get my needs met any way I could. I didn't see how destructive to both of us this behavior actually was.



Ummmm, no need to wonder...I can settle it here and now. Yes, I did. You are correct. It is my pattern.



I think I did. Maybe he would say differently...I don't know.



Maybe I did do that. I don't know what to think about this one, because the first thing that comes to mind is that this is all my fault. It makes me afraid that it was something I did that made this happen.

Yes. In all my relationships prior to this one. I remember actually talking to someone (thinking I had it all figured out this time) and telling them that this time I was emotionally healthy enough to attract someone who was also emotionally healthy; someone who was not even close to lowering my standards. I still can't figure this relationship out. I really thought this time was different. I felt very good about myself that I had such a good relationship. I knew the other relationships weren't good. I really believed this one was, and I was proud that I had made such progress.

What does this mean???? I'm having a bit of a rough day, so my emotions (and lack of estrogen still) might be playing into this somewhat. But, does this mean that to avoid my pattern, I should have walked away from this relationship on D-Day? Isn't my pattern to stay in an unhealthy relationship regardless of how badly someone treats me? Aren't I doing the very same thing I should be trying to avoid by staying???

(((((Froz)))))

I can't respond tonight and probably cant until Monday. I'm headed to bed for an early start on our trip back to NJ. Today was our last day of vacation! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But one thing I think needs to be said.

Froz, you are not nearly as powerful as you think you are. (Step 1, Powerlessness, remember?) We are simply talking about the patterns of your decisions, and what might be behind them so you can start on a path of personal recovery and healing. We are NOT assigning blame or passing judgement!!!!! (hmmm, there goes your little pattern again of making it about you - stop this now)

Slow waaaay down here, you are jumping to conclusions that involve you beating yourself up and taking responsibility for things you just didn't have power over.

And I am not for even a split second, suggesting that you should have dumped Patriot on D-day.

I am not suggesting for even a second, that Patriot is in the class of the alcoholic abuser or the sex molestor.

What is different this time?

Patriot is as far as we know, committed to recovering his marriage to you, and becoming a better man. He is willing to look at his faults and take responsiblity for them.

Now, take a break from all this thinking for a bit. Any time you find yourself starting to beat yourself up for even a second, do something else. Choose to turn your mind away from it.

Froz ~ you will not truely be able to receive love until you are able to love yourself. What you are doing to yourself right now is not kind or loving.

Thank you for opening my eyes. I believe we hear only what we want. I have a problem with that too. I need to hear H in a different language, his language. (WH)
I hope to enlighten him as you did me. We are on our way to recovery and I pray every day for the lost love. I just do not see that it is already there. The hurt is still too hard to let go of.
But what a great step you have made. I hope to make it to that step for myself (loving myself again).
Tons of Prayers Your Way!

Hey Frozen,

I can't tell you how trilled I was to read your first post. I'm so happy for you and I will continue to lift you and Patriot up in prayer. Keep hanging in there, just keep giving your M time to heal...hey remember I'm in the same boat.

Your H loves you very much, nothing else makes sense as to why he is doing all that he can to save his M. Even if he didn't love you then during the A, he does now...he probably loves you more then he ever thought possible. I think I've said this to you before that "Attitude determines Altitude".

I haven't been on MB often lately. Monday I will be going in to be induced so God willing our baby girl will be here on Monday and it won't be a long drawn out labor and delivery.

As for me and hubby, we are doing great. He is very excited about renewing our vows when he comes home. Every chance he gets he shows me that he is grateful to not have lost me and he isn't going to mess our M up for nothing in the world.

He is getting very nervous about the arrival of his 1st child. My 14yr Daughter is just plain excited lol. Can you believe that I will have 3 girls !!!(actually had 4 girls, 2yr old's identical twin died shortly after birth) I wonder statisically what the odds are of that happening. Hopefully the next one will be a boy.

Whitedove,

Best of luck with your induction. I hope your delivery goes smoothly. I will be thinking of you Monday. I am sure you will all fall head over heels for your new baby girl.

Also, congratulations on your vow renewal!

Froz

recovery is difficult stuff. "thank you captain obvious" jokes aside, the fact is recovery feels, for me, like we discover something and then we have trouble remembering we discovered it.

Example. We learned recently about saying things that mean the same in different ways(different 'languages'). Well, just last night we had a discussion about a number of things and to me it felt like the discussion, though it kept soliciting 'you don't love me as much as I love you' from her, sure seemed like just a language barrier to me.

It is obvious to me that she and I still have a ways to go on the communication piece because I can't tell you how many times she asks me a question and I don't answer it to her standard. No, I'm not lying or hiding something. I answer the question the way I know how, and she doesn't think what I gave was an answer. Last nights deal was I did not give the 'why' to a certain question. I gave justification. Given the circumstance, it sure seemed the same to me.

15 hours. I am all for it. More than 15 would be just fine. But, I have to admit it is challenging to partake of fifteen conflict filled hours. It is also hard to find 15 hours were even she wants to deal with me for the whole time. And work schedules. And other commitments in life. But, for ever remark I can make about life, school, work or whatever else might be 'getting in the way' for me, a thousand people can say "where there's a will, there's a way" or my personal favorite "then you just make time" like you just run to the corner store and pick up some fresh time.

recovery is challenging. I wish I could talk about more substance, but I don't have time....being at work and all.

Thinking of you, Whitedove. I hope everything went smoothly during your delivery. I hope today was a beautiful day for you and your family.

Congratulations,

Froz

I proposed a more structured approach to recovery. A plan. I know this would be received well since froz is a plan kinda girl.

It was not received very well this evening because she is extremely upset with me.

Calling Dr. Harley is in order. I will begin figuring out how to make that happen. Can anyone tell me how it works? If I recall, it was cal to make an appointment time and then call back then, yes?

We have not been to MC in weeks. That needs to start back up.

I am mostly saddened in that a number of moments of positive recovery are blackened by horrible verbal exchanges. It has become "I am tired of being your mother" and honestly, I don't blame her. I am tired of being the child, too.

She is extremely fiery when she is angry and it is almost unbearable. I imagined this evening that her anger most make her want to kill me. And that can not be fun for her at all. She is afraid and hurt. Sometimes to the point, it seems like we have not made one step of progress. I know that is horrible for her.

I am so angry at myself for being a conflict avoider and for lying about things after dday. Also, and more damaging, I am angry at myself for not comeing completely clean.

The shock of her anger towards me makes me doubt anything I believe or know. She explodes and I run. I get flustered very easily and I don't know which way is up in a very short time. Now, she has every right to have emotion and show it. I am just not sure what the best way to stop running is. I have to do something, though, because everyday is another day I am losing her, and that is not recovery.

I thought we might have found a real answer in the differing languages idea. Maybe what we have found is yet another reason for her to be afraid of me. That isn't good either. She took a poat of mine today and 'translated' it. That didn't go well. Basically she too the post and turned it into the most selfish thing I have ever read. I really didn't mean to say it that way.

When I discuss my feelings, it is seen as selfish. I am 99% sure that me going to college is not fine with her and that I am being selfish. I have such a strong drive for the aquisition of knowledge. I really have a strong desire to repair my relationship here, but it is met with such emotion and anger that I don't know what to do.

I can't blame her for being angry. I would be angry too if she went out and did what I did. I would be hurt too.

I have to be stronger. I told her this tonight... and interestingly she said why did she have to be the strong one. What a change... she used to say she was so weak. Maybe that was progress.

She is so beautiful, but wow does she get mad. She feels everything so hard.

I am not giving up on the structured recovery idea. I think it is a winning deal. Something to add a measure of control and routine.

The situation at work about lunch and driving 2 females from the unit was just all wrong. I assessed it so incorrectly.

I am going to redo the EN question thing again. I need to, as I have read HNHN and discovered possibilities of new more important needs. This will be done in 2 days and given to froz. So wednesday suspense on that. Maybe nothing will change. I just want to explore it again on my timeline.

She got so angry at me tonight... that really was crazy and I am completely confused on where it went wrong. I took her to the college because I wanted her to be a part of my life there. I wanted her to see it and get a feel for what I would be around up there. The conversation was going well it seemed. We got in the car and I said something, I guess.... because I don't know what happened. Oh.. wait. I do. We were going to go to the commissary. At first I was not enthusiastic. She asked why. I said she over analyzed everything.

The rest is history.

Thats enough for the journal tonight.

Let's try again tomorrow.

Right now, hun, you and Patriot are both going through some very painful marital and personal growth.

What is clear to me right now, is that Patriot has issues with conflict avoidance and honesty, and we also know that he is capable of having an affair rather than dealing with his marriage.

However. These are just interesting facts. These are not reasons to jump to conclusions or take actions.

In Al-Anon, we talk about the three A's: Awareness, Acceptance, and Action.

Awareness is what I am trying to help you with right now. Acceptance will come later - and Action is LAST for a reason. Actions that we take based on awareness that lacks acceptance will always be misguided.

The three A's are in that order for a reason!

So, try to keep that in mind: Awareness.

As Dr. Phil says, we can't fix what we don't acknowledge.

So just take it easy - we are just identifying "stuff", and trying to put together a bit of a puzzle of what Froz is.


To quote shamelessly from the Big Book of AA:


Now, I know that you and Patriot aren't struggling with alcoholism (although, since your parents were CoA, I think that the disease has influenced you). But the above quote applies to many more than just alcoholics.

I personally think that alcoholics just happen to deal with the pain of living in the way described above by drinking. The rest of us suffer through the pain of a self-will inflicted life stone cold sober. And in some ways, that makes us even more sick, because we weren't numbed to the pain!


You are right, there are no coicidences. The problem here is that you jumped to a very incorrect conclusion.

Alot of people all led you to believe that you were unlovable. That alot of people wanted you to believe this lie was not a coicidence.

This does not mean you ARE unlovable. This does NOT MAKE IT TRUE!

It means you were surrounded by a lot of very selfish sick broken and hurting people.


You told me your mother loved her bio children more than you.

You told me NOTHING about your dad.

Most young girls do not get pregnant at 17 unless they are desperately seeking male love and approval. And/or thinking that a baby will give her the unconditional love she seeks.


By telling herself that you are not her problem. By removing the source of her guilt from her life so she can go back to ignoring and denying the little girl she believes she abandoned and who later showed up to prove it.


Well, here is where acceptance has to take place. You can't get what you want. Your bio mom is just who she is, not who you want her to be. Acceptance doesn't mean you agree or have to like it, it just means that you acknowledge the reality in front of you.


Ok, here we go again. You did not make "this" (if you mean the affair) happen.

Patriot did that all by himself and it is a result of Patriot's problems and his lack of handling conflict in a mature manner.

You did not make him have an affair.

Same goes for your marriage. It took both of you.

Froz ~ I truely get that you have very exacting standards for yourself when it comes to integrity, responsiblity, love, etc. I used to do the same thing to myself also. I didn't understand what was so wrong with my holding other people to the same standards as I held myself.

What was wrong was that I was horribly cruel to ME. I had no compassion, no love, no self respect. I said horrible things to myself in the privacy of my own mind. My anger at myself for failing to meet my very rigid, very high expectations of myself was incredibly intense. Depression is caused by inwardly turned anger. No wonder I nearly killed myself.

And as I grew frustrated and angry with the people around me who failed to love me by meeting my rigid expectations, I began treating them with the same hatred that I exacted upon myself.

What I found was, in order for me to have compassion for others...and still maintain my boundaries, was that I had to learn how to allow myself to be a human being, how to love myself and have compassion for myself when I made a mistake.

My cruelty to myself, in exacting such rigid standards, was also cruel and unloving to the very people around me that I had promised to love.

I had to learn to let myself be a human being, and to allow myself to make mistakes, and to have compassion and love for myself, before I was able to lower those exacting, rigid standards for everyone else too.

BR,

Points taken. At least, as much as I am able to grasp at the moment. I will print this for future reference. Awareness, for me, usually comes in spurts.




My father is a very, very generous person. There were a lot of times, growing up, that I did feel quite understood by him. However, he was ill-equipped to protect me from my mother, as he could hardly protect himself from her.

There were times, I think, when he recognized something she did as emotional abuse. Other times, she could persuade him to go along with whatever he was doing and even convince him that it was the right thing to do.

I grew to know that my father was not compassionless, as I believed my mother to be, but he also couldn't save me.

Oh Dear.

This explains alot to me. My situation was reversed. My father was the abusive one and my mother was the one I saw as weak and unable to save us. You could have been describing my mother with your description.

I didn't realize, until much further along in my recovery process, that I was angry, incredibly angry, with my mom.

She was the adult. I was the child. It was her job to protect me and she did not. In fact, she went along with my father's abuse to us in order to avoid his anger being directed at her. I came to understand, that it was not that she could not protect us children, it was that she chose not to protect us, and in fact used us to protect herself. My mother was very good at making all of us believe that she was the good one, a martyr and a victim.

What I later came to understand is that she was and still is, an incredibly skilled manipulator and controller - she just used different tools than my dad.

If you had asked back then, I would have said without a doubt my mother loved me but my dad didn't.

The reality was, I was starved for love, because I did not have it from either parent.

It makes perfect sense to me that a little girl, who did not feel safe and protected by her dad (the MOST important thing a man can do for his daughters) went out to seek that from other men. Pregnancy at 17 is no surprise to me in this scenario. And not that much different than your bio-mom's pattern either is it?

It seems to me, that you sought out men that failed to protect you. Who may have been very similar to your dad. (Selfish, unavailable, unwilling to protect) Who used you for their own selfish ends. Again, going to the hardware store for bread and milk, you sought out men who would not protect you, and expected and demanded that they do so.

And I have another question for you - how much are you like your mother, in how you are treating Patriot?

I suspect that you have a very deep fear of being harmed by men that is more than Patriot's affair (which we already knew). You need, even more than most, to be 110% secure and safe.

Exacting rigid standards based on your fears and explosive anger will not get you the protection you need and deserve. Believe it or not, if you can work through some of your anger, especially your anger at others in your life, I would be willing to bet, you'll find it easier to work on making Patriot feel loved. I know, your anger and pride are screaming: what h311, he gets to have an affair and now he gets to feel good by me!!! that's your taker and you gotta ignore it right now! This recovery stuff is not intuitive. And I think Patriot is willing to love you and protect you ~ but you need to get out of the way and give him a chance.

That's really your answer right now. Stop focusing on how Patriot is making you feel, and focus on how Patriot feels. Drop the sense of entitlement (he hurt me, now I deserve the right to abuse him with my righteous anger), and focus on how YOU are making HIM feel.

If you want him to love you, you need to be lovable. Yep, there's that fear cropping up, that you aren't lovable. So, if that is the case, take a good hard look at you, and weed out those unlovable bits that are there, so there is room for alot of loveable stuff to grow! You are no longer a helpless child. You are a grown woman who can choose to be lovable.

The better he feels about you, the more in love, the more safe he feels, the better job he is going to be able to do in protecting and loving you. This is truely the secret to getting the love you crave Froz.

You both have new patterns to learn. The exciting thing is that you can do it together if you just give it a bit of patience and gentleness with yourselves.

Patriot, call Steve, call him today ~ because you guys truely need professional help. Steve won't go digging into childhood and history of why either of you are the way you are. He'll start giving both of you practical stuff to do that will change the atmosphere in your home really really quickly. Yes, it is expensive. Divorce is even more expensive. And I suspect if you guys can't sort this out, thats where you are headed. From what I have read here, I don't see a marriage that can't be saved. It would be a pity if you both missed out on what can be a great marriage.

Froz ~ Save the love languages conversations for a future discussion, until you have had the time to sort out for yourself, the difference between your true love language, and what is really your unhealthy anger and fear demanding what Patriot or any other human being can not give.

And Froz ~ the secret to being lovable, is to love yourself.

What can you do for yourself today that says "I love you!"?

Patriot,

Call the 800 number listed in the counseling section that has a link on the home page.

If it's central standard time office hours someone will answer the phone and setup a coaching session for you. Glad you're considering this.

In your situation like mine where both people are willing to recover their marriage - Steve works wonders.

Hopefully he's not booked too far out. Have a spiral notebook and pencil handy to take notes.

Nothing. I am not like her at all. I am really getting tired of this whole "angry" bit. I'm not angry. I know the difference between anger, frustration, and hurt. I can be emotional, sure. If he didn't want an emotional woman, perhaps he should have chosen someone more like my mother.

He paints me out to be some psycho-wife, who is mad, mad, mad. I'm not mad. I'm frustrated and confused. He makes it sound as though I am attacking him, while he is cowering in the corner. That is not the case. He neglected to give the entire picture of last night's events. I'm not going to sit here and "tattle", because it's pointless.

This is all insane. It really is. It's insane and I'm really tired of living it.

Give, give, give...that's the answer? Fine...I'll give some more. I wonder how much more I can give until I have nothing left. This has already taken so much from me, and everyone who knows me.

Your assessment about my relationship with my father makes sense. I never did feel as though he chose not to protect me, though. I always knew he couldn't. No one could win against my mother, including him...maybe especially him. I am not angry with him for it. I understand.

Walk away and stop letting men treat me badly.

walk away?

ugh... Steve Harley can fix this? I'm calling the guy because I am failing so miserably that even I hate me.

....

Patriot,

I can't begin to describe to you the enormous relief when my husband and I handed our recovery over to Steve.

Best decision you'll ever make....the coaching is not painless, but far easier than trying to navigate the emotional minefield on your own.

We have been in recovery 3 1/2 years and we're doing sooo well. It's what I want for everyone on this forum. We practice today the skills we learned from SH's coaching. We arrived at a place where we can safely coach each other. We have the tools and we use them.

He'll also tell each of you when some personal recovery is needed.

In my case personal recovery took precedence at times. He taught me how to deal with anxiety that I never had experienced prior to d-day. Believe me, I use those skills to this day too.

It's a wonderful gift to give yourself and Froz - you will benefit individually and as a couple.

Dear Froz ~ You can walk away from Patriot, but unfortunately, you can't walk away from yourself. I know this sounds nuts, but you are the source of your pain.

Running from Patriot will not make you happy.


Ok, fine. You aren't mad.

But do you think that perhaps, from Patriot's point of view, that he experiences your reactions as angry?

Remember what I said about perception being reality?

I don't get the impression that Patriot is posting here about you with the intention of harming your good name or trying to get us on "his" side. I do get the impression that he is very frustrated and confused himself, because he is experiencing anger and stone walls from you, no matter how much he tries to placate you.

Do I think he is perfect? Do I think he is not making mistakes? Not at all. I think he misses the mark alot and could use Steve Harley's help in learning how to love you.

But...

He just truely is as frustrated as you are. One thing is clear though Froz, this man loves you. The reasons you can not feel it has more to do with the hurt, broken parts of you that desperately needs healing, than it does with his failures.


I can relate to this feeling. I remember thinking that I could not give even one more little bit without completely utterly emptying myself. The problem I discovered, was with me. I gave to other people before I gave to myself. And I resented everyone else for not noticing and giving back to me in the same way.

When I saw other people taking care of themselves, I labeled it selfish and unloving.

I became very bitter, very resentful, and with every little "give" I became harder, colder and more angry.

My Taker was in charge of the giving.

Even though I was giving, I was giving with the expectation that I would get back everything in an exact fashion. I was "owed". Anything given to me that did not meet my exacting standards was angrily rejected as not good enough, and therefore, disregarded as not loving.

I had to get the Taker under control, learn to love myself, and learn to give without expectations.

Patriot ~ you both can not navigate this alone.

It's ok to ask for help. You truely need a professional here.

Yes, he does. He perceives any emotion other than utter bliss as angry. It's all he knows for himself, so why wouldn't he think that it was that way for everyone else? I have told him that I have more than just two emotions, but he doesn't seem to hear it.




I didn't perceive that he was trying to ruin my good name. It bothers me more that he really does see things that way. I don't particularly see why he is frustrated and confused - unless he is confused about himself. I am no mystery. If he wants to know something about me, all he needs to do is ask.

I also don't see where he is trying to placate me. If he is doing that now, it's only after I am upset. I really don't like that that is the only time he makes an effort. I really would like to not be greased only when I squeak.

It would be nice if my needs were even a factor here, yet the only thing that seems to be focused on is what he needs.

So, if that is the way it needs to be...so be it. I am in the process of negotiating with him exactly what it is I need to change about me to suit him.

negotiating?

Here is an important piece of information. Please pay attention.

I can not give you answer of how to specifically be because I do not want to do it without considering your needs.

I want to fill your needs to. I am dying to no longer make you unhappy. Don't you see that? I am trying to make you happy.

I can not tell you how to fill my needs without also addressing your needs. It is obviously not healthy to just tell you to do something without considering if you are fine with it.

You needs are the biggest factor here. If I didn't care about your needs, I wouldn't be here trying to figure out what to do. I also would not continue trying to discuss this situation at all.

Do you see that?

I don't like having these type of discussions here, but since seem to be addressing me specifically, I don't want to ignore you, either.



I see these as two separate issues, in that we don't need the same things. Today I asked you about your needs. If, in another conversation, you would like to address my needs, then please ask away. But, as I said, today I was inquiring about yours. If you can't give me a specific answer, it will be impossible for me to guess them.




I'm very sorry, but no...I don't see that. Making me unhappy and making me happy are also two separate issues, I think. One would seem to fall in line with LB's and the other with EN's. I have been very honest about both, and told you which specific things make me happy and unhappy. Given that, it makes it pretty difficult to understand what you are doing.


There is no way to know if I am fine with it unless you tell me.

Ugh.

You guys aren't negotiating. You guys are power-struggling.

There is a EN and LB questionnaire on the site...have you guys filled it out?

Patriot, did you call the Harley's?

Froz ~


If he is confused, then there is a problem, and it isn't necessarily a problem with him.

Froz, I'll try this again. 5 years ago, I could have written or said the exact same thing.

The truth was, that my needs, emotions, and feelings were communicated as lovebusters. I used selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts.

There is no way my husband could have suceeded.

I labeled all of it as Honesty and Openess. If my husband couldn't figure it out, well, then that was his problem and he needed to change.

Let me tell you Froz, the problem was ME. And that was because I was so empty, and so desperate, and so needy that there was NO WAY another human being could fill me up.

In some ways, my husband's affair was the best thing that ever happened. He took himself out of my life long enough that I had no choice but to look at ME and find that I had to rely on me for happiness FIRST before I was even capable of having my emotional needs met by another person.

There is no human being on the planet that can fix your pain, ease your hurts, make you feel safe, my dear, except for YOU.


Your definition of an effort, or his?


This is patently not true.

The difficulty is that you have a Taker running away out of control, and you are choosing to continue allowing this to happen, regardless of the harm you might be doing to your marriage.

You want this marriage on your terms and your terms only, with you in charge.


For a woman who is not angry, your tone, and words, sure do communicate something entirely the opposite.

Froz ~ honestly, we were getting somewhere together, you and I. And then you shut down very hard. Your fear is running the show right now.

Choices based on fear, never seem to result in the outcome we desire. I'm standing here waving a red flag at you hun.

Froz,

This thread is helping so many including me.

I just wish I had Bramble when I was at the stage you are now. You just might not be ready to hear what she's saying.

Where are you guys on coaching with SH? This marriage recovery business is tricky...I think I've said this before, but it's a composite of marriage and personal recovery.

Steve's first rule to me was "DO NO HARM"; meaning no LBs. So if nothing else, can you focus on no LBs? It's the bare minimum. And Patriot, can you take the initiative to call SH?

It will go a long way to helping Froz if she's where I think she is.

We'll wait patiently.

Well, don't give up on me yet.



Extending that this statement is true, how? If it's true, then I honestly don't know how. If I am hurting myself, it can't be just me. He is also hurting me. I am pretty sure I'm not imagining it.



Then why was I so happy before the A?




Mine. I thought you said I had a right to have my needs met in my language. I meant that he only does the things I mention (long before I ever mention them in an LB fashion, or however he perceives it). The truth is...I don't really care much for being manipulative. I ask nicely over and over again. He then LB's, taking away my safety, and only then do I get frustrated and bring it up in what he perceives as an angry fashion.

I'm telling you...this guy only sees two emotions..."regular and angry". He has told me this before. I have more than two. I have about 999,999,999. What he saw as anger last night was fear and pain. Why am I the one who must change everything about who I am? I'm not the one who was running around mindlessly causing everyone in my life destruction for my own selfish purposes.

I make a mistake, and suddenly it seems catastrophic. He makes a mistake and it's perceived as him needing room to grow. Why is it that he can't make it safe for me to change? I do feel the need to protect myself. He hurt me deeply, and continues to hurt me, regardless of what I tell him I need to feel safe. The things I have told him are not unreasonable expectations. They are not so completely narrow that there is no way he can possibly meet them.




It seems pretty true to me. Even in his above post (quoted below), his primary concern is getting his needs met.



and...


Yesterday he said that. Tonight he started school.



I don't want to be in charge. I'm just tired of continuously giving while he continuously takes. I'm also tired of being hurt. I'm tired of being least important.



It's frustration.



Sorry to disappoint you. I really am. I shut down because I am scared. Are you really telling me I should dive right in and give him whatever it is that he wants, regardless of whether or not I feel safe to proceed? I'm not making a choice. I'm just sitting here waiting to see what happens next.

Last night was horrible. Things spiraled way out of control. I tried to tell him numerous times that I didn't want to talk anymore. He continued to talk anyway. We were in the car. When we arrived home, I tried to get out of the car and he grabbed me. He has this not-so-safe way of manhandling me when he is angry (since D-Day). When he got out of the car, I locked all the doors so he couldn't get back in. It was very scary and quite a flashback from my past. I don't feel safe to have any emotion right now, so I am keeping them all in check.

Froz, I have sat back and watched this thread (and learned a lot thanks BR). I think you need to print out this thread and process this conversation with BR carefully. You and Pat give the R talks a break for few days while you process what you are learning. In the meantime, have you checked out the book Safe Haven Marriage ? If not, see if you can get a copy. It may make you flinch at times, I know it did me but every time I go back to it I learn something new about myself. Reading here does that for me as well. I just learned something big for me today thanks to Susan's perspective on my interactions with my H. See I thought it was HIM but it was ME!

No one is saying your hurt is not real BTW. {{Froz}}

Froz, when I read this quote in a book I am studying tonight I thought of you. It is from a book called Brave Hearts by Sharon Hersh

FF,

Thank you for sharing that with me.

I am certainly not saying that Patriot isn't hurting you or that you are imagining it. As FF said, your hurt is very real. The problem, as I see it, is that you are waiting for Patriot to change so that you can be happy. And when he doesn't change to your liking, you are hurt. You set yourself up for this misery.

Froz, let me remind you, I'm married to an active alcoholic. For the most part, I'm pretty happy. My husband did not change to make me happy. I changed me, my attitudes, my behaviors, because those were the things that I could control. As long as I stayed stuck, victimized, attempting to get my husband to change to make me happy, I was miserable.


Really? So Patriot was meeting all of your needs and was the husband you needed before the affair? He understood your emotions, met your needs, never lovebusted....everything was great? So why arent you telling him to be that pre-A husband?

I think that your happiness before the A was more about denial than it was about reality.


I'm sorry to say then, that to say that he makes no effort is a disrespectful judgement. I believe he IS making efforts. He just isn't hitting the target with the effort. This is why you both need to talk to Steve Harley.


You do. I did not say you had the right to demand that Patriot change to make you happy. I did not say you have the right to selfishingly demand your needs and judge Patriot when he fails.

Froz ~ you deserve to be loved the way you need to be loved. This does not turn into: ...therefore you have the right to demand that someone else change to make you feel that love.

Loving you is Patriot's choice.


A selfish demand is still a selfish demand, even if you say Please first.

I can tell you that it took a long time for my husband to get things right. It was a new pattern, and he didn't think like me or have my needs. I had to stop judging him, stop deciding that I understood his motives, I had to stop making everything he did about me.


Don't we tell our children that 2 wrongs don't make a "right"?

Neither do 2 lovebusters.


That could be. So what? It doesn't make what you are doing ok!


So do you think that maybe, not understanding a myriad of emotions, might make him clumsy, hesitant to approach you, and probably not willing to try, for fear of yet again getting it wrong and having you hurt more, and/or LB him?


I'm sure he did. But I bet he also saw anger. Your posts are very angry.


This is your Taker talking and running the show.

I am sure there are a lot of things Patriot can change.

I am not talking to Patriot. I'm talking to you.

Do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy?

Your behavior is destructive to you. Thats why I am prodding you to change.

If you feel that there is nothing wrong with you, then I simply keep my mouth closed, and you can go back to demanding bread and milk from a hardware store. It didn't work from you in the past....maybe it will work this time?

If what you are doing is working for you, by all means, don't change. Keep selfishly demanding that Patriot change, and when he does, judge him selfish and unloving.


Whoa.

I 'm just shaking my head hun.

Your husband has written hundreds of things on this thread. Most of them about you.

You zeroed in on one thing he said about himself?

YOUR JOB in recovery is to not love bust and fill needs for HIM. His job is to tell you what he needs. He's doing his part. Yes, he has to do the same for you. But that doesn't mean that he has to get yours right before he gets his!!

Have you forgotten that you are a team and he gets to have his needs filled too, regardless of past transgression?

Recovery is not about what is just and fair.

The BS must drop the sense of victimization and entitlement for recovery to work.

You are tired of being his parent?

Then stop.

Thats totally in your control.

Froz ~ you do want to be in charge. You are angry. You are self-righteous in victimization, expecting Patriot to change to meet your exacting standards so you can be happy.

Froz ~ what would you do, if Patriot suddenly did everything right for you?

I think that idea terrifies you. It did terrify me. Remember how I told you that emotionally unavailable men were safe?

Because, obviously, it wasn't real.




Interesting...this is now a failing of mine? Funny, I was doing then what everyone is telling me to do now...accepting what he says as truth.




This is not meant to sound contrite, but how is it exactly that I'm demanding? I'm not ordering him to do anything. I've simply told him what I need. Granted, I'm not happy that I'm not getting it, but I really don't see where it is that I am punishing him. I really don't understand how it is that I'm supposed to be happy in this relationship when my needs are not being met.




I'm very confused. Since when is being emotional a LB?



Yes. I do that that might make him clumsy, etc...but, by the same token, does he not think that disregarding how I feel might make me emotional? What's the difference? Why am I the one expected to change? The truth is, I can't change the fact that I'm emotional any more than he can change the fact that he isn't. Wouldn't it just be easier for him to understand that ALL my emotion isn't anger...much the same way I am expected to understand that he doesn't necessarily mean to hurt me?



I want to be happy. If I could understand how it is that just accepting whatever he does to hurt me is supposed to make me happy, I would.




I have no desire for you to keep your mouth closed. You have said nothing that has offended me. What you are reading as anger isn't anger. It's frustration. Frustration at the fact that I don't understand. Frustration at the fact that he seems to be allowed to behave in whatever manner he chooses and I'm supposed to be all-forgiving and all-understanding.

What is the difference in you telling me that I am participating in behaviors that are hurting him and me or anyone else telling Patriot that he is hurting me? Yes, I'm frustrated!


This makes sense. I wish I knew how to stop feeling that way.


I really do try not to LB him. Sometimes my emotions get in the way. I realize he doesn't necessarily have to get mine right first. I really hope you don't assume that I just sit here day after day, bashing him and giving nothing. That just isn't true.

Every day I put forth my best effort. Some days I am more successful than others - just like him. Every day I get up at the crack of dawn so I can make him his coffee and his breakfast and lunch. I try to be considerate of him. I run his errands for him and try to do them in the manner that he likes. Even in the midst of all of this, I called him yesterday to tell him to have a good first day of school. I am trying to meet his needs. I really am. I will admit that I do find it difficult to praise him when he is hurting me so much. During those times, I try to keep my mouth shut. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. Most often it does, until he prods me. During those times, I find it difficult to lie about how I feel. That's all this is. It's not a case of me verbally attacking him at every available opportunity. However, if he asks me, I'm not going to lie about how I feel.



I'm not angry. I'm hurt and sad and frustrated. I'm drained empty. I don't want to be in charge. I just want to be loved...in my language. I don't want to be told that love is not considering the other person. If he knows that's the case, then I want him to stop, much the same way I am being told to stop being so emotional towards him because he perceives that as not feeling safe or being loved.

If I ever had "charge" (which I didn't), then fine...I relinquish it. I am no longer in charge. I never actually though I was, anyway.

So condsidering that I am now beat down and willing to start from scratch...what is it that I'm supposed to do?

I'm sorry to keep making you shake your head. I'm sorry that I'm so clueless. I really am not trying to argue with you. I'm simply trying to understand.

I've been thinking about this one...

I would never expect him to do everything right. I never have. It is only when he does something that hurts me to my core that I react so strongly. It is often things I have told him before hurt me deeply, yet he often continues to repeat them.

I'm so confused.

I have done everything I know, and even tried some things I didn't know.

I have tried praising him.

I have tried focusing more on the good than the bad.

I have made lists and lists for him of "Things he has done right"...

I have even posted here about them.

I have been loving. I have been patient. I have continued to be kind, regardless of the mistakes that he has made.

I just want to know when...when is he going to stop hurting me?????

And, if I don't tell him it hurts, how is he supposed to know? Perhaps, from now on I will not tell him something hurts me in person. Maybe I will write him a letter. I'm very expressive in language and in body language. Perhaps that expressiveness is what he sees as emotional and attacking.

I really don't know what to do.

Something tells me today is going to be very long, and very lonely.

Froz, Are you and Pat spending any time together just having fun? No R talks just recreational time like Harley recommends? I know other obligations get in the way but this is a must. (straight from the mouth of the woman that has yet to accomplish this, LOL) I see so clearly that you two need some "off" time together to enjoy each other and heal.

I was referred to you from someone else because your story is really similar to mine.
I'm 26, and just found out my fiancee cheated on me with my sister. He keeps saying he loves me with all of his heart, but all I am hearing is "I love you NOW, but I didn't then." Since I've been with him I've never truly felt loved. But I also know my expectations from him are pretty high.
We were suppsed to be married November 5th. That's obviously been called off. He says he still wants to get married and that he wants to spend the rest of his life trying to make it up to me. I love him, but I'm not sure if I love him enough to forgive him for sleeping with my sister.
From what I have read, you sound a lot like me. Any advice would be wonderful.

Wow Hrt1,

That's a painful story you tell. What's the relationship with your sister like now?

Froz, I do not understand either why you are getting so much blame for what it wrong here. BR, I am listening to you too, but I don't get it.

I also got "manhandled" the other night and it was not to provide any comfort or understanding -- it was to Shut Me Up. I suspect yours was for the same reason.

I follow your posts because your situation is much like mine.
Mulan

I haven't talked to her since I found out on August 1st. She hasn't tried to contact me to explain, apologize or anything.

frozen,

I read your posts and I see so many statements like:

He hurts me...
He continues to hurt me...
I just want to know when...when is he going to stop hurting me?????

His actions may not be to your liking but, I just can't imagine that his actions are done with the intention of wanting you to feel hurt.

You are the owner of your feelings. Granted, his actions can have an influence on your feelings but statements like those above infer that you are placing the responsibilty for your feelings in his hands.

Maybe it's all semantics but, he cannot 'make' you feel safe. He cannot 'make' you feel happy. He cannot 'make' feel anything. He can only contribute a positive or negative influence for you to process into happiness, anger, hurt, frustration, etc.


I can understand your frustration with this. At what point to you begin to consider removing yourself from what is seemingly a continually unsafe and painful atmosphere?

It's all together possible that patriot simply cannot change himself and his actions to the extent that would create an atomosphere where you would be able to feel 'completely' safe and unhurt.

I'm really getting so many mixed messages.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and if for some reason it's perceived that way...please forgive me. I ask questions because I'm desperately trying to understand.



By that logic, then isn't he also the owner of his feelings? Isn't the responsibility of his feelings being placed in my hands, simply because he perceives my emotionalism as "unsafe", and therefore threatening? So, I am being told I must change these things.

I do not have the intention of trying to hurt him, either.

I'm not resisting just for the sake of resisting change. I don't know if I can change who I am. I may be able to change aspects of myself, but changing my whole being to suit him is not something I am sure I can do.

Why do I need to change to make him feel safe?

No, FF, we haven't. We have both contributed to that factor. He's been busy with work and school, and I've been busy responding to all of you (just kidding).

I've been kind of sick, and really, really tired. I haven't had much energy for anything recreational.

I'll make it a priority if you think it will help.

hrt,

I am sorry for your situation. I know how painful and disappointing that is.

I just wanted you to know I am really thinking about your question. Give me just a bit to really ponder this. I would really like to share with you what I would do differently, of given the opportunity.

I'll get right on that.

Froz, I think you need to time to really process all you have learned so far. Maybe others would disagree but sometimes I hide from my pain or from really working on myself by posting here. (thanks Susan) I also believe Froz that you are lacking joy. Where can you find some joy with Pat?

Pat, question for you. Is is really necessary for you to be in school right now? What would happen if you put if off and spent that time with Froz? Think hard (this is not meant to be a DJ) where your priorities truly are right now.

FF,

Just out of curiousity, what makes you think I am lacking joy? (not denying that I am)

Maybe I shouldn't have asked that. Patriot says that I over-analyze everything and that I ask too many questions. Maybe it is something I need to work on...I don't know. I just find people's thoughts and ideas and their origin very interesting.

It was an assumption on my part because of the way you post. I don't see joy in you, I see fear.

This first point is being addressed because it’s important, but not because it has anything to do with the current bump (as I understand it).

Patriot - It's improper and insulting (not going to take it further than that for now) to use any physical means to restrain, control or otherwise prevent another person from moving about freely unless they are in real, imminent danger or they present a danger to others. Grabbing Froz to keep her in the car with you is completely unacceptable unless she's diving out into oncoming traffic. In which case, you should pull over and stop the car so that she can exit safely. Bottom line - If Froz doesn't want to be in a particular place at a particular time that is her decision to make. Do you get me? Select one: ___Yes ___No.

Froz - same goes. Just in case there's any question. For instance, no standing in Pat's way if he is trying to leave the room. Let him leave. Got it?

Both of you – It’s sometimes inconvenient and usually not much fun to let someone else leave when you are fighting or unhappy or uncomfortable or just wanting to get away. Leaving an uncomfortable situation is ALWAYS an option and always should be, but that said, the action of leaving a discussion also has consequences and that is something you both need to remember.


The rest is more topical (albeit philosophical) and not intended to garner a response here on the boards.


Pat? Froz? Does giving or getting forgiveness require an apology? Think about this for a minute. Discuss among yourselves. Read on.

Apologies are interesting things. Some people think that apologies, even the most sincere ones, are merely tools for manipulation ex: If I apologize now, I will get what I want in the end or more frequent, if I apologize now, then everything will be smoothed over and we’ll have peace. Or it’s a way to get the hurt party to shut up ex: If I say “Sorry” then s/he can’t keep being so vocal about being hurt. “I said I was sorry. What more do you want from me?” “I’m sorry any of this ever happened can we please stop talking about it now.”

People will often apologize without actually admitting fault or responsibility. They insult the intended recipient or even blame the intended recipient for the problem in the first place. Ex: “I’m sorry you feel that way.” or “I’m sorry I ran over your dog and killed him but if you hadn’t let your dog out to play in the yard in the first place, I never could have hurt him when I lost control of my vehicle and drove off the road and onto your property.”

Some people think that receiving an apology means that the problem should never happen again. “If you are really sorry, you will never do this [to me] again.” Some people think that an apology should be part of making up for the past wrong. “You said you were sorry for running over my dog but you didn’t offer to fix the fence or replace my dog, not that you ever could replace my dog…”

There are still other people that don’t believe that it is necessary to apologize directly to people for the wrongs we do to them – near them. We can or should only ask forgiveness from God, the universe, whatever… (To these people who read this now and want to discuss this outside of Pat and Froz’s situation, I would say please try for the sake of growth and progress, let’s not have that discussion here, but instead take it to another thread?)

If you’ve ever felt wronged, ask yourselves. How would I want the apology to be presented to me? What do I hope to gain from an apology? What am I willing to give if I get the apology I want? What if I never get the apology? Or what if it doesn’t meet my definition of a true apology? Then what?


Well, then there’s this idea…

What if what we really seek from ourselves and others is improvement?

We all have faults. The faults we have cause us and others to suffer in many different ways. The suffering we feel is painful. It limits us. We don’t feel free to be ourselves. So when we’re suffering, we want change in the situation, other people, ourselves... we want improvement. We want to feel free and easy again.

How are we supposed to make things better when we’ve f***ed up?

We start by regretting what we did wrong. And that doesn’t mean the same thing as feeling guilty by the way! What’s the difference? Glad you asked. Guilt is being preoccupied with knowing you did something wrong. It’s that sinking feeling that you’ve done something you think is so bad that you can’t fix it and you don’t know how you’ll ever redeem yourself. Regret is when you feel like you missed out, you’re disappointed, or you feel like you lost something or long for something. It’s when you feel like you missed an opportunity and now that opportunity is gone forever. We start by feeling like – MAN! I wish I had done that differently!

Next, talk about it. Say it out loud! Yes, it’s important. Vocalization is power. We process and learn from the act of talking in ways we can’t when we internalize. Don’t things and thinks sound very different out loud from what we have in our heads? Maybe you talk to yourself. Maybe you talk to God. Maybe you talk to the person you’ve wronged…. Maybe you talk to someone else, a friend, a stranger, a counselor, a priest, a dog, a horse. That choice is up to you. It’s the actual verbalization that is key.

We make a resolution for the future. This is deciding on a course of action. We put plans in place so that we don’t keep repeating the same mistakes again and again. Resolution = determination = decision. When you really decide you want things to be different – BETTER, you start making changes to achieve that goal and maintain it. Think of your resolution for the future as part of your personal training program. You’re training yourself to be a better person and have a better life for you and everyone around you.

The last ingredient is for us to leave what went before in the past and face forward. It means we leave all of what was negative behind. We stop dwelling on the wrongs we’ve done and the wrongs of others. This is a combination of thought and action. We stop all the head-spinning, stop bringing up the past in new arguments and get rid of physical reminders that keep us rooted in the past bad behaviors and problems. It means avoiding activities (and people) that bring us back to the negative crap we’re trying to get rid of.

So in not one of these steps is there a need for an “I’m sorry” statement. But if we all took these steps, wouldn’t life start getting better? And when life starts getting better and we start to feel good, won’t that change our perceptions? And isn’t that really forgiveness? A change of thought? A change from feeling trapped and suffering to feeling peaceful and free?


Now would probably be a good time for a coffee break. Or a pop. Or a salty snack. There’s more…


Pat and Froz, last week (and really all the weeks leading up to last week) you both had a realization that the past mistakes you’ve both made weren’t WHO you are. The mistakes aren’t you, just poor perception or bad judgment. You decided not to make those mistakes again because they don’t define you.

Last week you both returned to your marriage with excitement and dreams for the future and plans to start making those dreams reality. You both took time to rethink, refresh and regain your hope in each other, yourselves, your marriage and life in general.

Recently someone posted a question on the board asking something like what would you do if you weren’t afraid?

I’ll ask these corollaries too:

If you knew you couldn’t go wrong – what would you say to each other?

If you knew you couldn’t fail – what would you attempt to achieve?

What new dreams have you identified for yourselves individually? For your marriage?

How are you pursuing your new dreams now?


You hit a bump and you got bogged down. You’ve both spent almost a week being unhappy with a situation that has passed. It can’t be taken back. You have no choice other than going forward but you’re BOTH stalling. Why?

BECAUSE – the answer to why is always because… right?

Because it’s easier. Because it’s what feels normal now. You’ve gotten accustomed to being upset with each other. Being upset gives you something too. It gives you excuses for why your life isn’t more fulfilling. It gives you shelter from the unknown – you can’t always say what will make you happy with each other but you sure know what makes you unhappy. It’s funny how it seems easier to do what you know, fall back into old patterns and ways of being because they are familiar… even when you know it’s all going to suck later.

But even while you’re stalled, you’re both still trying. You’re both still progressing. You both refuse to give up. What’s the difference between the marriages that enter recovery and make it and the marriages that don’t? It’s not that one marriage has people who make mistakes and another has people who are perfect. Ha! It’s that in a successful marriage, we realize we make mistakes and refuse to give up while in the un-recovered relationships, one or both people give up after making mistakes.

The very fact that you are trying to change has value. Do yourselves a favor and skip the paralyzing guilt and blame. Try to focus on where you’re missing the mark. Where are your desires leading you? Where are you rebelling? This is all really lack of honest self-expression. Confront your fear of rejection. What are you afraid of anyway? That she’ll stop loving you Pat? That he’ll stop loving you Froz?

Take responsibility for your own actions (not the each other’s) and keep moving forward. Last week you were willing to tackle the hard stuff. You knew you had a lot of reality to confront. Find some more of that willingness tonight. You have so much more to learn and experience and until you start moving forward you’re just going to spend your time on the same s**t today, tomorrow, the day after, the day after that…

So you’re saying but I should be afraid. OK, some fear is healthy. But there’s a difference in how you use that fear in your lives. One way is to use the fear to return to unhappy activities, dangerous pursuits and fighting. Well duh! All that stuff produces adrenalin and that actually makes us feel good physically, even if only for a brief time. Emotionally we wind up heartsick but we like the familiar feel of the adrenalin and we know exactly which negative behaviors will get us there and we don’t always know which positive ones will… But negative is still negative.

The other way to use that fear is to say – I’m afraid that I’ll miss out on my chance for a happy life with you. I don’t want to miss out. You guys… You’re both missing out on each other. You’re never going to get the past back. You’re never going to get another opportunity to re-live the events of the weekend and make them better. You only get the opportunity to make yourselves and your lives better from this moment forward. You should be afraid of that. You should be afraid that you’re not using your opportunities wisely and to the fullest! Face that fear and embrace it.

Don’t miss out on each other any more today.

Sally

Sally,

What a wonderful, inspiring, focus-driven post!

Time prevents me from responding properly. We will discuss this between the two of us and be back to answer your questions later.

Froz

Print this and post it on your refrigerator. Insert HIM/HER that way it can apply to patriot too. Each of you read it outloud to yourself every day and then ask yourself if you've made any progress in the restoration of your marriage.

I wrote the following last night, and decided not to post it. I wasn't comfortable with what turned out to be a "Pep Rally Post," because when reading it over, it seemed to be overly simplistic, and unappreciative of the tough times you both are going through.

But since it's still sitting here, WTH... if for no other reason than to know I wish you both well.

-----

Maybe you two need to miss each other.

I said to my WW, as we were supposedly "recovering" (we weren't; unbeknownst to me at that time, she was still involved in the A)....

"We're THIS close..."

And I pinched my thumb and index finger together...and I felt we WERE that close... to connecting, and
moving forward. And even though she was in a huge amount of turmoil at the time, I think she KNEW that we were JUST that...

"THIS close..."

So, I think about you guys, who seem to be much, much CLOSER...

and it PAINS me to see this day after day after day.

I know this is all extremely complicated. I know the FRUSTRATION is HUGE on both sides.

Patriot, consider this:

1) you're married to a woman who has yelled to The World that she loves you, and is committed to making your M work.
2) you're married to a woman who is willing to "spill her guts" for you.
3) you're married to a woman who is strong, intelligent, and to top it all off... as you've said... beautiful.

Consider all of the above a gift! None of the above should be taken for granted... you're a lucky man!

Froz,

1) you're married to a man who has yelled to The World that he loves you, and is committed to making your M work.
2) you're married to a man who has resolved to do whatever it takes to make you happy.
3) you're married to a man that's strong, intelligent, and I have no clue what he looks like (that's the requisite humor for the post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Consider all of the above a gift! None of the above should be taken for granted... you're a lucky woman!

Or, you can both go on the way you are, slowly but surely replacing all those gifts with more and more doubt, and resentment, and then maybe, eventually, start to manufacture in your own heads how life on the other side of the fence must be so much better...

Appreciate what you have in each other. Concentrate on the good! And knowing you're both committed to each other and to a healthy, happy partnership... have some fun, relax a little, take a step back and take a deep breath, and know that in time you will conquer these things.

Remember that life ain't perfect, we ain't perfect, and neither are our chosen partners! Never!

Accept the fact that there may be skeletons in the closet (as we all have), and baggage to cart around (as we all have), and lots of faults and hangups and fears and insecurities... (as regular-old-normal humans, we all have).

See the good in each other, and forgive the not-as-good-as-you'd-like (and do the same for yourselves!) -- that's what loving someone means.

Once you do that, then... over time, helping each other to unload some of the baggage could be a very rewarding experience.

Froz, a few weeks ago I wrote something to you about humility... maybe the above ramble is what I was thinking.

At any rate...like I said, maybe you two need to miss each other.
Maybe then you'd realize what you have.

tqt,



I'm so glad you did, tqt. I often find your responses helpful. This one has been no exception.




1) I'm very grateful for that. I'm very grateful that he has never given up on me, or on our M. He has remained steadfast - no matter what. I am very grateful for that.
2) I'm grateful for his resolve.
3) I'll tell you what he looks like from my eyes. To me, he is physically perfect. He sets the standard for all others and no one could possibly measure up. He is a much harsher critic, though.

He has soft, very bright blue eyes that smile when he smiles. They light up his whole face. He has so many qualities about him that are so masculine - his jaw, his hands, his voice.

His voice is so comforting that I've made him promise that if I am ever comatose to continually talk to me in the voice he uses. He can talk me out of any nightmare or panic attack, simply because his voice has such a calming effect for me.

He is bald - the kind of bald where he was getting there and said "to heck with it" and just shaved his head. I love it. It completely suits him and makes him look tough. It makes a nice contrast with his soft eyes and gentle voice.

He is tall. He is strong, and he has a very kind way about him. He is very compassionate. Some of those may not be physical attributes, but they all play a part in how he looks through my eyes. He is beautiful. I tell him every day.

I hope I haven't embarrassed him. (I just POJA'd with him just in case, and was given free reign to describe away).
Did I mention he has a beautiful smile that warms my heart?



Some of that is definitely in order.




What wonderful advice, and very well put. I think I'll put that on my refrigerator.




Yes, I remember.


I will remind myself while he's still here, rather than wait until he is gone. I don't want to miss him.

Thanks for sharing that, tqt. It was a lovely reminder.

Sincerely,

Slushy

Did he meet your needs pre-A? Did you feel loved by him pre-A? Why was that not real?


<sigh>

Froz, this is not about judging you. I am trying to get you to look at you very closely. Either Patriot was a great husband (maybe he was, I don't know!) or there were alot of problems with Patriot that you ignored.

And if you ignored those problems, then yes, denial is a good word.

This is not assigning blame. This is simply looking at what-is, and who you are in your relationship, and who you are as a person.

Why you?

Because you are the one I am talking to. I am not talking to Patriot and about his part of your marriage. I am talking to you. And honestly, for my purposes, Patriot could be a poisonous purple headed bullfrog with giant warts. So what?

Focusing on what kind of husband he is, will not help you even one iota. You can't control him or fix him or change him. He is who he is.

Focusing on how you can be a better wife IS something that can help you. You can control you, fix you, change you. And those changes will AID your marital recovery if you choose it, or aid your life after Patriot.

Froz hun, I am in recovery. I will be celebrating my 15th wedding anniversary on Sept 15. I know how I got to the recovery that I have, and I have been where you are. I know that your recovery doesn't stand a chance if you don't do some growing and changing. Even if it turns out that Patriot is really a selfish evil jerk with nasty long horns, and that you truely have been the innocent victim, I know that you will need the same exact growth and change in order to survive this and find happiness post-divorce either alone or with someone else. My point earlier in this thread, was that maybe part of the problem in your relationships, was YOU. And that part of that symptom was your choice in men.

Those issues must be addressed Froz, whether you leave Patriot or not. Obviously, you can choose to ignore those issues and hope for better 'luck'.

Or you can stand up and take responsibility for your life, your happiness and your choices.

The whole point Froz, is to identify YOUR patterns. Your patterns have contributed to the state of your marriage. I can point you at those things. I am not going to sit here and sympathize with how mean and evil Patriot is.

I know for a fact that it took my FWS husband well over a year before some of his patterns settled down to where I felt safe. Well after he moved back home and started working at recovery, he still did things that hurt me. It was never so simple as my listing my needs directly and then he marching along following instructions. I know that I hindered his progress in learning to love me with my lovebusters.

By focusing on MY responsiblities in our marriage, I got what I wanted and needed faster.

I know that when my husband, to this day, ticks me off, that I have to look at my behavior first, before looking at his. I know that if my focus is always on him, what he is doing or not doing, or what he should be doing, or what I want him to do....that NOTHING will happen.

Now going back to the denial comment...


Who is "everyone'? Not I. Do I sometimes disagree with your disrespectful interpretation of his behavior? Yes.


I am happy in my marriage. My needs are not met.

My husband's primary relationship is with alcohol. I can not have the intimate relationship with him that I would like to have. But I have learned to accept him as he is, and be grateful for what he can give me. No, I'm not scraping at crumbs...I've just stopped playing Poor Me. I've chosen this marriage, and so I take repsonsiblity for my part in it. I changed ME, Froz, and those changes completely utterly changed my life and my happiness for the better.

If I had waited for my husband to 'get it' after my direct, simple ENs-for-dummies explanations, I'd still be waiting for happiness.

Doing a better job at loving my husband, instead of keeping score (which you are doing), made my husband feel loved and therefore, far more interested in loving me back. I get so much more from him by loving him than I do by scorekeeping.


Not one time have I suggested you should be a doormat. What I and others have said is that your happiness is NOT his responsibility. It's his job to be a good husband and meet your ENs. It's your job to choose happiness. You choose happiness by caring for yourself.

I'm not really asking you to give more to Patriot. I'm asking you to give more to yourself and to stop expecting more from Patriot.

I am asking you to refrain from harming. I am not saying give more, I am saying hurt him less.

Yes, I get that he is hurting you. But I don't know anyone that lovebusted their way into marital bliss. Do you?

If you are not willing to change your behavior towards him, why should he be willing to do so for you?

I'll repeat what I posted earlier:


Froz ~ one more thought.

Your feelings are yours. Feel anything and everything you want. Its your choice. Your feelings can not be a lovebuster.

What is a lovebuster is how you act as a result of those feelings. I know, you think that you are not doing anything of the lovebusting sort when hurt.

That's not what Patriot is experiencing. Or is he lying?

Not for a second, am I condoning his behavior. But if you can't take some responsibililty for what happens...I don't give your recovery a very high chance in suceeding.

Sally,

We didn't make as much progress as we'd hoped going over your post. We got about 1/3 of the way through. We're still working on it. You raised a lot of very interesting questions.

I was unaware of the entire situation. Had I been presented with all of the facts, I could have made a fairer assessment.



I do feel a bit judged here sometimes, but not necessarily by you. I don't mind the way you prompt me to take a closer look at things or view them from a different perspective. I find it quite helpful, actually. I see that you are trying to "get me to look at me very closely" and take it as such, with appreciation.




A few corrections, if I may...Patriot was not a husband pre-A. We were married a month after D-Day. Sounds crazy, I'm sure...may have been crazy, but that's a whole other topic.

As far as denial, there was none. I don't think it would really be fair to say I was in denial. I wasn't. He was a clever liar and he fooled me. If my failing was trusting him, because he had never given me a reason not to trust him, then so be it. I wasn't in denial. I'm not a fortune-teller, nor am I a mind-reader. I was simply fooled.




I understand and you're right.



I understand and agree with this, also.



I don't expect anyone to sympathize. I point out specifics of things he's done, merely to help anyone reading to understand how I got to the place I did. If you called him mean or evil, I would be the first to defend him, and I often have. He is neither mean, nor evil. I was simply trying to be understood, with regards to frustration.

As far as my patterns contributing to the state of my marriage, I agree. I will not, however, take responsibility in laying the groundwork for an A. I didn't. That may be a whole other topic, too, and require some background history. But since I wasn't married before the A, then yes, I will agree. Our entire M has been spent in Recovery. My patterns have contributed to the progress of our Recovery.




I have definitely been thrashed by others for not believing something he says. I am learning how my interpretation of his behavior is disrespectful and not conducive towards Recovery.




I am glad you are happy, despite that. I am not willing to accept a marriage where my needs are not met. I am not saying that it is impossible. I'm just defining a boundary for myself.




I'm not keeping score. I'm being aware of my threshhold for resentment. I will not give something and then feel resentment for it. I don't think that would be doing anything for my M. I may not be explaining this very well, but I explained it to Patriot earlier and he understood what I meant. So, that's good enough for me.



You're wrong. I don't think that at all. I don't define what is or isn't a LB for him. If he says it hurts him, then I'm sure it does. I'm working on learning to communicate with him in a manner that still allows me to be honest about my emotions and still prevent him pain. I've been having a difficult time accomplishing both.




I am completely willing to take responsibility for my actions.

I've been thinking about what you (or maybe others) said about my expectations being an impossibility for Patriot to achieve. It isn't true. My expectations are not enormous. He doesn't have to be perfect in order to meet my EN's. I don't have a narrow target.

Actually, frustration is one of the many faces of anger. Perhaps this bit of knowledge will help in your journey of self-exploration.

This is an excellent conversation you are having with BR (kudos to you BR!). Keep working at it.

Merge

Geez, will someone let me off the "anger" hook????

Just kidding. I'll explore that...thank you.

Froz, I have an idea...
When you're just SORTA angry, plop a few of these in strategic places: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
When you're REALLY angry: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
When you're REALLY REALLY FLAMING PISSED: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It'll confuse the he|| outta everybody! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ha, tqt...

Do you REALLY think I need help confusing anyone????

Well... after a great deal of thought...

I guess you're doing ok as is.

Just don't let it go to your head. :-)

I'm gonna try your technique anyway. It can't hurt to throw 'em a curve every now and then. My tactics might be getting somewhat predictable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> (I'm not really "frustrated", I was just testing it out.)

No, its not a whole other topic. It is "the topic" my dear.

Why did you marry a guy that had just ripped your heart out? It's not like you were new to marriage...


I am not necessarily saying that Froz, you knew he was cheating and were in denial.

Denial is a sneaky little thing.

I was convinced I was not angry. My mom was a victim, my dad was the bad guy. And of course, I was nothing like my dad.

All of these things were part of my denial for years and years. I thought there was nothing wrong with me...everything was wrong with everyone else around me.

As I said to my husband one night (which was a lovebuster, but true none the less): What makes you so special? You grew up, surrounded by addicts and dysfunctional control freaks, and YOU some how came out ok even when no one else did? (All of his siblings have huge problems in their personal lives).


That you did not see the through the lies is understandable.

Alot of us have been there and experienced that!

What I think though, is that had you been a healthy person, Patriot probably wouldn't have been so darn attractive to you.


This is victim mentality.

You got to where you are, not because of what he has done, but because of your choices.


You have repeatedly said to me on this thread that he keeps hurting you.

You seem to waffle between saying he is knowingly hurting you....or he doesn't understand you.

You are a victim attempting to control the outcome because of your fear of being hurt. Either you are putting all the blame on him, or blaming yourself.

I can tell you that it just doesn't matter which it is on his part right now.

What matters is how you care for yourself.

I will bump my Detachment with Love thread for you.

There are some things in there I think might help you.


I wasn't suggesting you should stay in a marriage that your needs are not met.

I wasn't suggesting that my choices should be yours.

What I was trying to point out to you is that "needs being met" does not equal happiness.

[color:"purple"]Happiness is a choice that you make, not a need your spouse fills[/color].


Really?

This earlier quote is not resentful?


You said similar things on this thread more than once.

Froz, you are angry and you are frustrated. You are frustrated because you are giving with the expectation of a specific outcome. When you are not getting what you want ( a self-willed outcome) you say you are frustrated - and as Merge pointed out - its just another word for angry.

As long as your motivations involve controlling Patriot (attempting to get him to see things your way and fill your needs your way) you will continue to be frustrated and angry.

This is another reason to call Steve. Steve told my husband what he had to do,not me. Steve did the demanding and told me I could not because it was a selfish demand from me.

Has Patriot called Steve? No?

That to me speaks volumes.

Btw, thats how Steve figures out who is in recovery and who isn't. When the WS makes the appointments, you are on track.


Then no more victim talk. Really. Because as long as your focus is on HIM and what he is doing wrong, you are a victim, and not taking responsiblity.

Now lets talk about your decision to marry a known adulterer who is not emotional available and who controls and avoids conflicts by lying?

Why I married him when I did is the topic? I didn't know that. I guess I was just tired last night and it seemed like it would take a really long explanation.




Heck, I'm sorry. I'm slow tonight. Are you saying that I knew and was in denial about it? I just want to make sure I understand.




Phew! I thought I was gonna have to fight you on that one! Thank God, I'm a little bit normal! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />




Can both not be true? I guess I meant "knowingly" in that I maybe it was unknown the first time, but when he continued after I told him that his behavior hurt me, then he would be doing it knowingly.




Yeah, I know (begrudgingly admitting). Darn, I was wrong.




Ha! Beat you to it!!!! It was very helpful. Immensely.




Ouch!

Yeah, it was extremely resentful. I guess I should say that I don't really feel comfortable giving if I'm going to resent it. I don't like it. Talk about the Taker talking!!!!



I see what you mean now.



No, he hasn't yet. We've discussed it and his reasons for not accomplishing it yet are valid. I have confidence that he will get this done.




You would really do that to me???? Take away my victim status???? Fine.



Something tells me this task isn't going to be fun...

Thanks for not giving up on me. I really appreciate your help.

Okay, I posted this to someone else today. We can start there. This is going to sting, I know. I'll be brave, though.

I was in shock. I was completely operating based on that. I knew I didn't want to lose him, and I wasn't ready or able to accept everything that was happening. So I went through the motions.

- My H is an Army guy. We found out that October that he was to be deployed just after the first of the year to Afghanistan. He was to be gone about 12-18 months. In my heart of hearts, I knew that if I didn't marry him before he left, that I would lose him. I knew that, out of a need to cope, I would heal on my own and move forward without him.

I really didn't think we could recover from all that was happening when he was so far away, particularly when his departure was to be so soon after D-Day.

- We were kind of scared to call off the wedding. I didn't want anyone to know or suspect what was going on. That reason wasn't a huge factor, but it did play a small role. It probably would have been fairly easy to explain that we just decided to wait until he returned from his deployment to get married.

Are you SURE you don't want to discuss something a little less controversial??? Perhaps my career or how great my two beautiful teenagers are???

LOL. Tell me your secret for great teenagers. I've got 1 and soon to be 2. Both boys. I'm already pulling out my hair with the first. I had no idea that boys could be such drama queens!

BTW, I guess I was just awkward about how I worded my points about denial. I don't think you were in denial about Pat's cheating. I think you are in denial about you!


You feared losing him because? He was such a great catch??


I don't believe this. This is part of your denial.

The secret to great teenagers is...luck??? I don't know. I think I just got really lucky.

Although, I definitely know what you mean about teenage boys. My fifteen-year old DS is kind of grumpy these days. But, he steers clear of trouble and makes excellent grades. I'm hoping the grumpy thing will pass.




Because in my mind, not having yet accepted everything that had happened, he still was. Everything happened so fast and I felt way off balance. I loved what I thought we had and I wasn't ready to let go of it.



Huh? He was leaving for a year and a half. Chances are, we would have grown apart. You really disagree? I don't see how I could have single-handedly healed this relationship, given those circumstances.


By the way, he really is a great catch (despite the fact he was a liar and a cheat <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). He understands most of my quirky, weird ways, he has a good job, my children love him, my family loves him, he's smart, funny, and extremely attractive. Once I get him under my control, I think he's gonna make an alright husband. (I'M KIDDING!!!!!!!)

- My H is an Army guy. We found out that October that he was to be deployed just after the first of the year to Afghanistan. He was to be gone about 12-18 months. In my heart of hearts, I knew that if I didn't marry him before he left, that I would lose him. I knew that, out of a need to cope, I would heal on my own and move forward without him.

What would have been so bad about that? Seems to me that it might still need to happen...the healing on your own part...and moving forward.

The way it stands now, your concentration on HIM and what he is or is not doing for you is keeping you from concentrating on YOU...and what you need to do to heal yourself. He cannot heal you...only you can do that.

committed

editing to add: by "losing" him and moving forward without him, I take that to mean breaking up...not his death. I read that twice and realized that it could sound like losing = death.

Heavens, no!!!! I meant breaking up.

Of course there needs to be healing, personally and within the relationship. All I meant was that I thought that I might "get over him". A moot, point, since he isn't going to Afghanistan and I have him in my clutches now.

Okay...(deep breath), we have an appointment with Dr. Harley on Tuesday. I'm nervous.

Well, I agree with this but probably not for the reasons you meant it...

The reality-that-you-desired did not match reality-that-was. The real Patriot did not match the man-you-wanted. So rather than making choices based on acceptance...you choose to ignore/force (deny) reality into what you wanted.

If you just put your fingers in your ears, and sang really loud ~ lalalalalalalala ~ and squeezed your eyes really tightly....

These are decisions based on self-will, instead of acceptance.

And the nasty little thing that happens, when our choices are based on self-will and attempts to force the reality that we desire instead of what-is....we become frustrated and angry...

So we try harder ...

And when we still dont get the outcome ...

We look around for someone to blame...

OH, it must be Patriot's fault! He's the reason I am unhappy and my reality isn't shaping up right!

But then...blaming Patriot and repeated attempts to get Patriot to change doesn't "fix" things...

The anger and the frustration grows...

And then the problem becomes... Oh dear... ME (Froz).

If Froz was only prettier, smarter, cleaned the house better, made more money, etc etc...then Froz would be able to fix this.

These are the tapes we play in our head...often learned from childhood. For you, Froz, it was something like: If I was a better child, I would be lovable. If I was lovable, Mom would treat me better.

This became: If I was a better woman, I would be lovable. If I was lovable, Patriot would treat me better. Since Patriot has treated me badly, I must not be lovable.

Where is your self-respect, your self-protection (boundaries?).

Women who love themselves and treat themselves as Queens (wink Pep and Suz) do not marry a man who has betrayed her in one of the worst ways possible only a month before!


Your fantasy was almost air-tight - you were happily swimming along in denial, and then BLAM!

D-Day is a very hard fact to deny!


Yes. You were determined to have your way weren'tcha? No pesky little dishonesty and betrayal was gonna get in your way!


Ok. I don't disagree that you would have grown apart and it would have been the end of your relationship.

What I find incredible, and believe is your denial, is that you thought that this was a reasonable, rational reason to marry a man who had just betrayed you in a horrible devastating way.

Most people, like committedandlovingit already posted, would see this as a GOOD reason not to get married, and in fact would be relieved that he was leaving so that the relationship could be easily dissolved.

I have to admit, my jaw dropped when I read this.

You might as well have been calmly saying: "Well, duh, of course I drove through that busy intersection Mr Police Officer, that light was red!!"

Even more significant, I think, was your comment:


i.e.: "I don't see how I could have singlehandly controlled my reality back into what I desired, given those circumstances."

{edited to add:} Are you still going to tell me that you don't want to be in charge?

LOL, glad you are able to laugh about this in yourself!

And congratulations on the appointment with Steve.

No need AT ALL to be nervous.

Steve will be a great interpreter between you!

Obviously, based on the choices I made, I was in denial D-Day, and for a time thereafter, and in a serious state of shock.



It was his fault that the reality (not my reality, but the reality that he presented to me as truth) wasn't reality.




This is all true. You could have reached inside my head and cut and pasted it here.



I wish I knew. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I suppose I probably relinquished them to gain the love and acceptance I've craved since I was a child.




NO! Denial of what? How the heck was I supposed to know he was lying? I was not in denial pre-A. To say that I was in denial would be implying that I had knowledge of the true circumstances and chose, consciously or otherwise, to deny their existence. I had no knowledge. I didn't make this "fantasy" up. He told me it was truth.

I will completely own being in deep denial D-Day and after, but not prior.



Okay, you may pick up your jaw. I NEVER said or thought it was a reasonable, rational reason. I just said, in retrospect, it was a reason. I didn't say it was a good reason.



Of course it's a good reason not to get married.

There would have been nothing easy about dissolving the relationship, though.

Yes, getting married at that time was certainly not a logical choice. Was it a mistake???? I don't know. Do I regret it? No. Maybe at some time in the future I will regret it. I don't know what the future holds yet, so I don't know.

All I can say to explain is that I loved him and I didn't want to let go. Those are facts. I was obviously reacting in shock/denial (isn't that the first stage...denial?) and I was operating based on emotion.

Recovery could have taken place whether we'd married or not. Do I think it is a mistake to pursue Recovery with him? No, I don't. Regardless of the outcome, I still think he is worth the risk.

I do hope to learn and grow from these circumstances and grow some self-respect in the process.




What is it exactly that you are saying I want to control? I'd like to know before I own that one. What is it exactly that I'm owning?




Not laughing so much right now. I feel sad, stupid, and pretty pathetic.

Also,



By "singlehandedly", I simply meant that he would be gone. I would have been alone to figure it out by myself. It's kind of hard to Recover together when you aren't together.

Froz ~ this is not about blaming you. This is not about judging you. This is not about saying: Look how stupid Froz is!

Froz ~ you are a funny, loving, caring, smart, wonderful woman.

As I said on Patriot's thread, in the end, I think you guys are going to be OK.

We are just looking and acknowleding stuff Froz, that's all. If you want to talk about it in MB terms...we are sifting through your fog, ignoring illusions, and putting our hands on "real stuff" and bringing out into the sunlight to be seen.

Yeah some of the "real stuff" is gonna be ugly. But that's ok. Now that you see it, you can clean it up and repair it all. And in the end, what we will have uncovered is the real, beautiful you that is there hiding!

It takes a pretty courageous babe to go through this. And you are doing it in public. Pretty darn brave of you, I think.

As I grew up, I learned a set of "truths" about myself and the world that was not real. But I lived my life and made my choices, and my behaviors were all based on those "truths".

Choices based on a false reality are likely to be pretty unreliable choices wouldn't you agree?

One of your "truths" Froz, is that you believe you are not worthy and deserving of love. You believe that you are unlovable.

When people treat you badly, you don't stand up and protect yourself. You allow their bad behavior to be your truth about yourself.

Your "truths" is that when other people treat you badly, that it is because you deserve it.

(What did you say to yourself when you discovered Patriot's betrayal?)

Your "truth" gives other people power over what you say and think about yourself.

One of your "truths" is that you have the power to control people, situations and circumstances around you. If you just do a little better, try a little harder, that you can force things to be "right". Manipulation and control are your favorite tools.

(Why did you marry him when you did?)

Because of this "truth"....when you fail to get the "right" outcome, you tell yourself that it was because you were not good enough, or that someone else failed you because you were not good enough. It never occurs to you that manipulation and control are the very things that cause the outcomes that you fear.

One of your "truths" is that other people, including Patriot, are responsible for your unhappiness.

If other people would just stop being or doing what they are, then you could be happy. This "truth" leaves you frustrated and angry, driving that downward spiral of self-loathing. (If I were good enough, he'd really love me, if he really loved me, he would do what I want him to do. Since he doesn't do what I want, he doesn't love me, because I am not good enough to be lovable.)

How do I know this about you Froz? Because I've been there, and still go there on occasion during a pity party!

I wasn't able to live my life driven by self-will and denial. I became angry, frustrated and completely unreasonable ~ and didn't know it. That is what I mean by denial Froz.

In my situation, my years of control by guilt, fear, intimidation and anger drove my husband away from me. His choice to cheat on me was his very pooro choice in dealing with my horrible behavior. My fear that I was not lovable, was proven to me because he did not love me the way I demanded, which resulted in my extreme manipulation and control to get him to do it right so I could be happy, which resulted in his leaving me because he didn't love me!

Denial does not mean that I think you knew Patriot was a cheater and a liar.

Lets work on exposing those "truths" for the lies they are, so that you can step out of the prison of denial.

And hun, I'm not suggesting for even a second that you made "bad" decisions, and that you should dump Patriot.

You guys can still go on to have a great marriage, regardless of the "why" and the truths behind your decisions.

BR,

I am very interested in what you have to say because I see my manipulative and controlling behaviors have made my WH unhappy. I learned well at my mother's knee who is a third-degree black belt control freak.

So how do I stop? I truly want to change.

(Froz - sorry to jump into your thread here and bless you for being willing to share and not run away from this. It is helping me so much.)

BR,

Was it my comments that made your jaw drop?

Most people, like committedandlovingit already posted, would see this as a GOOD reason not to get married, and in fact would be relieved that he was leaving so that the relationship could be easily dissolved.

I didn't say that I would have been relieved so that the relationship could be easily dissolved. Moving forward does not necessarily mean leaving the other person behind. Individual healing had to take place...she had to move forward with him...or without him. Either way, she had to look to herself for that healing.

I would have needed to get my head on straight...to try and determine if I indeed even wanted to be married to that person. It would not have been to easily dissolve the relationship. I am one of those people that needs to step back and regroup when something life altering like this happens. It doesn't necessarily mean that I am jettisoning the person out of my life. It means that I need to work on my own personal healing.

One more thing...miles do NOT separate people. ACTIONS separate people. At least that is what I believe.

committed

I didn't think at all that you were doing that. I did that one all by myself. I'm very good at it. The fact is, I was stupid. I did/do a lot of really dumb things. I know that. I'm just not particularly happy about it.




...and that's exactly how I take it. Don't worry. You didn't hurt my feelings. I'm just not very happy with myself regarding the choices and mistakes I've made.




It sure is ugly. All of it. All of this. Sure, I see it (most of it), but I really have doubts that I can clean it up and repair it. I sure thought I was doing great before (before the A)! I really thought I had my life together. I thought I had a wonderful guy, wonderful children, a great job, great friends, etc...I thought I was making such great choices and had really learned from past experiences. I was the one everyone came to for sound advice because they thought I was such a wealth of knowledge, having gone through so much in my life and coming out clean and healthy on the other side. WHATEVER!!!!



I sure hope this wasn't hypothetical, because I'm going to take a stab at it.

I said to myself, "I'm ugly. I'm fat. I'm stupid. I'm worthless. No one loves me. No one ever has. I'm not good enough for him. I must be lousy in bed. I must be lousy at everything. No wonder no one loves me. I thought I was happy and healthy and good now. Obviously, I'm not," and on and on and on...




Because I wanted all of it to go away. I wanted everything to be like it was before. I didn't want to let go of my dream.




I definitely didn't. What really hurts so much this time, above all the other times, is that I really did believe in him. I really, really did.




Okay. I hope your expectations aren't real "up there". I really appreciate your help and I don't want to disappoint you.

Thinking of you froz. Glad you are getting expert help.

Committed ~ I was writing too fast and committed grammatical fouls!

Should have said: Most people, like committedandlovingit already posted, would see this as a GOOD reason not to get married[period, end of sentence].

The rest was more general, not crediting you with the 'relieved' feeling.

Froz ~


Ok. Stop.

Beating yourself up for making mistakes is a very unloving thing to do.

You did the best you could at the time. Guilt and blame have no place in recovery of any kind.

Accept that you are a human being and like all human beings, you've been hurt, damaged, and sometimes, make mistakes. Like the rest of us! One aspect of control is a perfectionist approach to life....and it is particularly destructive when we turn that perfectionsim on ourselves!!

Froz ~ give yourself permission to screw up. It is ok. Thats why we have God around!


Well, back to the 12 steps.

1. Acknowledge that your life is unmanageable. (You can't do it!)

2. Acknowledge that a power greater than yourself can. (God)

3. Let Him do it, get out of the way!


Yes, you were in denial, living a life of pretend: Everything is Great, I am Powerful and In Charge.


And as Pep pointed out on my "fan thread" ~ that little fear in your head, from childhood, came out and said: See, its true. You are unlovable.

What we hope to see Froz, is that you choose to stop giving those fears power. You are lovable.

Patriot's betrayal of you had more to do with what is wrong with HIM, than anything wrong with you.

Your mother's betrayal of you (both times) had nothing to do with what was wrong with you and did have everything to do with what was wrong with her.

And as for your adopted mother....

I suspect there were 2 things going on there...

1. You believed you were unlovable, so saw everything she did with the expectation that you indeed were not going to be loved as much as everyone else.

2. She was also hurt and damaged and unable to love you the way you deserved. Do not ignore the power of the disease of alcoholism that had affected her.

And then fathers....oh dear fathers...

Your bio dad...abandoned you.

You real dad...abandoned you.

You went on to be hurt and abandoned by your first husband, and violated by your second.

(And I haven't gone here with this question...but Froz, I know you blame yourself for choosing the sex molestor...but I have a feeling....you blame yourself for not being good enough...and causing the sex molestor to turn on your daughter...)

Every single time Froz, the problem was with someone else, but you have made it about you. This part of you, the broken, hurt, wounded part of you, never matured past that child who believed adult problems were her fault.

Over and over, you have set yourself up in adulthood to repeat those lessons and to confirm those truths which are NOT TRUE.

(((((((((( Froz )))))))))))

And the whole point of all of these conversations Froz ~ is to help you become receptive to Patriot's love.

He does love you, and it's bouncing right off some very high walls.

Fort Knox and you are pretty similar!

~amen~ to that

1. No kidding!
2. Okay.
3. I'll try.




I was in in denial pre-A. I had every reason to believe things were pretty great. It's not my fault he lied.



Not denying that the above is true...just exploring here. How can you possibly really know that?



I'm not convinced of that. That was probably the case in my adolescence, but I remember knowing that very early on. She has always told me it's just my imagination. I don't possibly see how a 3-year old child can just be imagining that. Those feelings had to come from somehwere.



Yeah, that's a tangled web. My grandmother (whom I love dearly) married my grandfather very young. He left her very young, too, and with two small children. My mom is the oldest. My grandmother re-married rather quickly and her 2nd husband adopted my mom and my uncle. My grandmother never told them that he wasn't their biological father - not until my mom was a teenager, after my grandmother had invited him to her high school graduation. He never showed.

I suspect my mom was very angry with my grandmother for deceiving her. I think that's why she told me at such an early age that I was adopted. I don't blame my mother for it, but the way she always explained adoption to me was very confusing. She told me "you didn't come from your mother's tummy like your brother and sisters did", but she never told me where I did come from.

I used to have wild childhood fantasies about where I came from. One notion was that God made adopted children out of playdough (so I liked playdough as a kid). He then put them on a conveyer belt and sprinkled them with magic dust, left them overnight to dry, and then BAM...you got yourself a batch of adopted kids!

The other fantasy was, and still is, a little more painful. My mom used to take us to garage sales a lot when were were young. I asked her one time when I was about five if she got me at a garage sale. She said "yes, for five cents". I'm sure she was joking, but it still hurt.




Yes, I blame myself, but not for the reason you suggest. I blame myself for choosing him at all. I blame myself for not knowing...so that I could have protected her. I blame myself for bringing someone so horrible into her life.

Even I am not twisted enough to think that I caused him to be a child molester.



Yes, I know.

From Detachment with Love:



Hun. This is not about Patriot's affair.

Your denial is NOT that you didn't know he was cheating.

Your denial was that you were happy and emtionally healthy, and therefore making great choices.

I am sure that many things about your life were happy. And that fear inside you that said you didn't deserve it came out to sabotage yourself. Because you believed everything was great, you didn't notice that you were setting yourself up again, with a man who would hurt you and prove once again that you didn't deserve that happiness!!!

I'd like to take a stab at this:

First, approaching this from the belief that love is not a passive thing that happens to us, but is an action word - a verb - something we DO... You are lovable because everyone is lovable - it is the choice of others whether or not they will take that action. The action of loving is just that, an action someone takes. Not being loved is no indication of our lovableness (is that a word) - it is merely an indication that the people around us have not made the choice to take the action of loving us. My take on that is that, perhaps, we need to surround ourselves with different people.

Second, I believe you are lovable because Patriot has stated unequivocably that he loves you, and because you are both working so very hard to get this marriage on the right track.

I haven't read everything you've both ever written here, so forgive me if I don't have some things straight.

You mentioned earlier something about Patriot "knowingly" hurting you by repeating hurtful behaviors that you'd told him were hurtful. Since I don't know exactly what those things were, I might be completely off base here... But one of the things about habitual behaviors and life patterns is that they can be completely unconscious, something that is deeply ingrained that we do not think about. i.e., driving home from work via a route that is established for 15 years ... after moving to a new home, you might, when leaving work thinking about the fact that you have to do some shopping and that you have to go to the school play, etc., find yourself driving to the old home because of the pattern you've established. Do you not KNOW that you no longer live at this old address? Of course you do... but you did not consciously and specifically think to yourself when you got in the car to start home "I must turn left at the intersection, not right." So, in that respect, I suppose you COULD say you "knowingly" drove to the wrong house... And, also in that respect, you COULD say that Patriot "knowingly" repeated hurtful behaviors. But, did he intentionally repeat those hurtful behaviors in spite of the knowledge that they would hurt you? Can we attribute conscious determination to hurt you? I'm going to go out on a limb and say "No"... Is it possible that some of these behaviors are actions that have become habitual under certain circumstances? I think that is likely. Should Patriot try to become more conscious of those patterns of behavior so he can avoid behaviors that hurt you? ABSOLUTELY. Can you force him to do that? NO, nor should you make any attempt to do so. Provide him with useful feedback, yes. "I felt very hurt when you did thus and such." And remember that his repeating a bad pattern of behavior really has nothing to do with whether or not he loves you, and certainly has nothing to do with whether anyone can love you.

I hope this makes some sense and is in some way helpful.

CS

How was it that I wasn't making good choices then? (try to go easy on me with this one)



Yes, there were MANY things that were happy, which is why I'm so puzzled by the fact that you seem to think I am setting myself up NOT to be happy. For someone who doesn't want to be happy, I sure did love my life when I was happy.



How was I setting myself up? How was I supposed to know he was going to hurt me?

It makes perfect sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.

Good morning Froz ~ I'm over an hour late getting ready for work. So, work first, then I'll respond tonight.

Look in the mirror at yourself today Froz. Practice smiling at you.

Then I want you to look at yourself right in the eyes and say OUT LOUD ~ I LOVE YOU FROZ.

Do that every morning! Yes I know it seems silly. It's not. JUST DO IT.

I would probably look pretty ridiculous doing that given that my name isn't Froz.

I did my "pre-steve phone call" questionnaire. I hope I am ready to make the phone call as productive as possible.

I hate mondays. Monday is the one day in the week when I am at work and Froz is not. It is difficult because without me around, she has plenty of time to ponder and work herself up. And I am not angry at her for this. I am sad, because she has every right to be bothered by the things in my past and it is just difficult to support her on the phone from work. Our conversations of support are so much better in privacy and in person.

I worry about her. Even though she has gotten some good advice on things, she is still in a very difficult position. She has to check well deserved rage towards me(which she does magically) and she has to continue to survive.

None of this being easy for anyone in the world, and she is no different.

I guess, this morning I was just thinking about the plight of my wife and wondering where she finds the strength to stay. It is enormous. All the pain and just crap that is stirred up by my past actions.

I stand by her. I should not be commended for doing as such. It should be expected. I am her husband. I am committed to her and I love her. I certainly hope I am able to bring some happiness to her life.

I miss you dear. I really do. thank you for being who you are. I could never thank you enough.

Thank you.

Patriot,

You have given Froz a great gift by hiring SH as your coach. It was the most loving thing my husband did to help us heal our marriage.

There are other gifts to be found in recovery, you'll both discover them individually.

She and you both have a real chance for personal growth and make a healthy marriage together.

Hey, it worked for me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sal

Stop interfering with my obstinateness, "Sally".

"I LOVE YOU FROZ"

"<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />"

"Sally"

is this another "quote" joke?

"huh?"

I love you Dorry worked for me - think I should change my name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> haha - I should try looking in the mirror and saying I love you Froz and see what happens though....

Patriot? Did someone quote you? Let me see, oh yes, that's right!

Someone DID quote you. And didn't some sorry whiner make a big fuss about not having been quoted...?

Nope. 'S'not a quotes joke. Just a plain old ordinary poke joke at Ms. Froz and her "supposed" OBstinateness.

Nice note by the way. Froz IS very special isn't she?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sal

Okay, Dorry, but let me forewarn you...

Remember that old wives tale from when we were teenagers? The one where your friends tell you to go in the bathroom and turn the lights off and say "Bloody Mary, bloody Mary...", into the mirror? Rumor has it that Bloody Mary will show her ugly face in the mirror.

There is no telling what will actually happen if you stand in the mirror reciting "I love you, Froz".

Just a thought.

"Supposed"?????? Are you trying to discredit me????

Shall I give you references of people who can vouch for my obstinateness?

Let's see...which witness shall I call to the stand?

Patriot
My mother
BrambleRose
Pep

The defense rests her case.

LOL froz - so if I keep the lights on???? lol

Well Froz...good thing my name is Bramble "PitBull" Rose.

Ask my husband, he'll tell you all about stubborn and obstinate being my major qualities! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In that case, the outcome will probably be you just feeling ridiculous. Try it and let me know!

Well, PitBull...does that mean you'll be a reluctant witness?

No it just means I got my teeth in ya and I'm not letting go til ya get it...obstinate or no....lol

Love it when you put me in my place.

Wanna hear something cute? I'm telling you anyway.

My DD17 was elected Art Club President (she's a very talented painter).

She didn't want anyone in Art Club to feel left out, so Miss President decided everyone should hold an office. Art Club now has a Vice President, a Secretary, a Sergeant at Arms, a Sheriff, etc...

She is so sweet and cute. She cracks me up. She is truly the most darling girl ever.

I thank God every day for my beautiful children Froz...

But, harumph, what I wanted to hear was if you stood in front of your mirror and did what I told you to do instead of just making obstinate remarks about it?

Sometimes parents don't recognize (even if it jumped up and bit 'em <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) all the things they've taught their kids... even if they weren't even trying.

I didn't. Not even gonna offer an excuse. I just didn't.

Patriot ~ I'm glad you will both be talking to Steve. I think he will help you both alot. I liked that he was very practical and straightforward - he's a fixit kinda guy, and I think for all of the husbands involved this is a relief! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And btw, Patriot ~ Froz has an enormous amount of pain. As you have been reading, a lot of it has nothing to do with you at all. She has to sort it all out. This takes time. When your reality gets dumped upside down, alot of crap falls out and has to get picked up and put back together. We are taking sometime to do a little housecleaning while we are at it!

I can tell you however, that one of things that helped me in recovery with my husband was that he was willing to sit down with me and talk about the whys. The whys didn't necessarily involve the immediate affair, but instead, he talked about the really big why: Why he dealt with our marriage the way he did.

It helped alot for me to sort through what happened, why it happened, and to honestly see that my husband understood why he did what he did, and to discuss the traps he had fallen into that led down that slippery slope.

That to me was more comforting than knowing the dirty details. Well, not really comforting - but made me feel like the issues were being addressed and understood, instead of just pushed under the table out of sight.

I hope that helps you.

Ok, thats good. Don't offer me an excuse. What's the reason?

tqt,

If it bit me, I didn't feel it. I seem to be having some trouble understanding what the heck people are talking about tonight.

I didn't want to. I was really angry this morning, and I just plain didn't want to.

What were you angry about?

Loving yourself takes practice. Thats what I want you to do. Practice. It will feel stupid at first. That's ok.

I'm sick of hurting. I'm sick of dealing with the aftermath of the disgusting things he did.

I'm angry with myself for marrying him when I did.

I'm angry with him for betraying me.

I'm angry with myself for staying with someone who betrayed me.

I'm angry with myself for continuing to make myself vulnerable to him (which I am, despite what Pep seems to think).

I'm angry because I feel misunderstood.

There's a start.

Here's more...

I'm angry because he lied to me during Recovery about details. I would so much rather have had my pain in a heaping dose, than the little heart-ectomies I get from time to time.

I'm angry because what he did was horrible and hurt me terribly and I'm expected to choke that back and be nice to him and protect HIM.

I'm angry because he doesn't even understand how much it hurts.

I'm angry because he doesn't seem to want to try to understand how much it hurts.

WOOOOOOOT!!!!!

Let's celebrate your non-denial about your anger.

This is a very big step.

I'll kick yer hiney about all the victim statements in this post later.

I am just glad to hear you acknowledge that you are angry.

Froz, get a nice big note book - a private notebook for your eyes only (I mean it, Patriot does NOT get to see this book, and Patriot you keep your hands off!), and write out all the hateful mean angry and rageful things you are feeling and thinking.

Do this every day. But...here's a big but....When you shut the book cover, you shut the door on the anger.

You choose when to let it out, and chooose when to shut it down. It's your anger. Instead of allowing the anger to rule you, you choose what you are going to do about it.

Letting out the rage in controlled bursts, in a way that does not hurt others around you, is a safe way to explore your anger and let it out of your soul, where it is toxic and eating you from the inside out.

Writing it down takes it out of your head, out of your body, where it lies ugly, petty, boring, and kindy silly looking on paper, and loses all its power.

When I saw Patriot's post about your rage this morning...I wondered if you were going to tell me that you just didn't understand what Patriot was talking about, and that you were FINE. (F-rustrated, I-nsecure, N-eurotic, and E-motional!)

I am so very glad to hear you acknowledge your anger. Really I am.

I wasn't in denial about it. If I told you I wasn't angry the other day, it's because I wasn't.

Today I was, so I told you.

I rarely lie about the way I feel.

I knew precisely what Patriot was talking about this morning. Apparently, in a drug-induced middle of the night conversation we had, I told him that it hurt too much to love him.

I've been thinking about that all day.

Love is a choice, yes? I've been wondering if it wouldn't hurt so much if I simply chose not to.

I'll try the "for my eyes only LB" method, although leaving it all in the notebook with nothing residual doesn't sound easy to accomplish.

Keeping him out of it also doesn't seem easy to accomplish.



I can hardly wait!!!! And it's not even my birthday!

And Froz ~

Anger is one of the nasty walls standing between you and Patriot's love.

You can't deny it, ignore it, shut it out, or pretend it doesn't exist. The toxic poison will filter into your entire life and infect it.

The only cure is to work through it - look at it, feel it, explore it, and then, let it go when you find that you don't need it anymore.

Good morning Patriot and Froz!

Sending lots of love and good wishes your way today!

Sally

Back atcha, Cutie!

BR, t/j here (sorry froz) Someone on my thread suggested Ala-non for me not because of alcohol but because of my enabling my H's apparent SA. Does something like that make sense? You can answer on my thread if you don't mind. I know you are helping froz right now. Just want an opinion. Ok back to the regularly scheduled programming.

Not considering it a threadjack, FF.

I'm kind of flattered that someone came to my thread to look for BrambleRose...makes me feel important to have a self-proclaimed "PitBull" in my corner!

I'm also curious to hear the answer to your question.

Hope you're doing well today.

Dear Faithful ~ Al-Anon Tradition #2 states: The only requirement for membership is that there be a problem with alcoholism in a relative or friend.

I don't know my grandfathers. Their alcoholism profoundly affected my parents though, and so had a lasting impact on me, although I had no personal connection with either.

They were my qualifiers long before I met my husband.

Can the 12 steps help you? yes absolutely. If you truely don't have a problem with alcoholism in your life (and odds are that you do...) then there are other 12 step support groups related to sexual addiction or eating disorders..etc.

Melody Beattie is a very helpful author, you might try reading some of her stuff.

F.I.N.E
(I'm)
frustrated
insecure
neurotic
emotional

F.E.A.R.
face
everything
and
recover

N.U.T.S.
not
using
the
steps

E.G.O.
edging
God
out

D.E.N.I.A.L.
don't
even
notice
I
am
lying

H.A.L.T.
(don't get too)
hungry
angry
lonely
tired

H.O.W.
honesty
open-mindedness
willingness

A.C.T.I.O.N.
any
change
to
improve
our
nature

P.R.O.G.R.A.M.
people
relying
on
God
relying
a
message

K.I.S.S.
keep
it
simple
sweetheart

Dear Froz ~

Brace for incoming foot swing! (Consider this a love kick. Or token, yeah that!)


This is a lie.


Yes you did, and I am very proud of you for acknowledging it.


Yes you do, your lies are all over this thread.

Denial. (Don't Even Notice I Am Lying) Did you read Pep's list? (thank you Pep, lol, I was looking for those earlier and couldn't find them!)


This is a truth that Pepperband and I have been pushing you on. This is your hurt, wounded, abandoned little baby girl talking. She needs you to love her.

Did you tell yourself I LOVE YOU in the mirror today? Why not? (This is a big question).

Patriot has misfortune to be receiving alot of your hurt and anger, because his affair is easier to blame with than the pain of abandonment and rejection from everyone else in your history.

Your hurt is another huge, tall wall between you and Patriot. This is another reason you are not a willing vessel to his love. He can't possibly fill you up from this pain ~ especially because he truely did not cause it all.

Do you begin to see why I said that perhaps your needs were impossible for Patriot to fill?


This is hurt and fear talking. You are right, maybe the pain would be easier to deny if you choose to stop loving Patriot.

But then you would deny yourself the pleasure of giving and receiving love.

And the anger wouldn't vanish, and the pain from all of your past hurts would not vanish either.

Instead, they would fester inside you...and eventually you would find that your pain has not really subsided as planned.

Do you want to wake up one day and discover that you have become a bitter, angry, mean old woman? Because your fear and anger are leading you right down the path to a cold, cruel existence.

God wants (wills) us to experience Love in our life. Do you think that perhaps, but shutting yourself off from love, by allowing your fear and pain and anger to dictate your choices by putting up huge walls to others, that maybe your self-will might be running the show, in direct opposition to God?

Are you smarter than God? Is your plan better than His?

Let go (of your will), and let God (work His will). Such a simple phrase with so much power!


To try is to lie.


Its a choice. You must learn to accept anger, and other feelings as just that, feelings. They are not facts. You have complete power over your choices of actions based on those feelings.

Choosing to feel really RAGEFUL for 20 minutes, and to write it all out and then choose to stop, and put the lid on it is possible.

If at first, you are too rageful to write....try a punching bag, or kick boxing..or something...

Yes, its challenging, but that is because you are out of practice.


That is not your problem. This is his. He has been warned.

I'll opt for a token. I'm in a good mood today and don't feel like being kicked.




Is not.




Still not lying. Lying would seem to denote knowing the truth and then denying it. I'll buy off on ignorance, but I wasn't lying.

And yes, I read Pep's list. It was a blast from my past. She sounds so much like my mother sometimes, it's eerie. She's definitely more hip, though. My mom would never say something like, "you da man". That is how I KNEW that Pep was a nurse. My mom is a nurse. So is my biological mother. That comparison isn't a negative one, by the way. My mother has many, many fine qualities.




Awww, crap! I actually did make it a step closer today. While I was putting my makeup on in the bathroom mirror, I did think about it. I prepared for it and was even gonna use my real name and everything. I got sidetracked, though, and then had to hurry it up or be late for work and forgot.

I didn't intentionally avoid doing it today like I did yesterday, so hopefully that's a step in the right direction.

Oh, what the heck. I own a hair salon. I have mirrors all over the place here. Be right back...

Okay. Mission accomplished. I said it three times and Dorry appeared in the mirror, sticking her tongue out at me!

Not really, but I did say it three times.




I can't imagine doing that. I'm really not as angry as you seem to think I am.


Hope you have a good day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok dear. You win.

BR, thanks I looked up Melody Beattie and ordered two books. Codependancy no more and Letting go.

Uh oh! How did that happen? That doesn't sound good. It sounds like maybe you're saving it up for later.

Nope.

I'm not going to fight you. If you choose denial, then I will respect your right to choose it.

I hope you guys had a good session with the Harley's this am - it was this morning right?

I'm not trying to be obstinate...I'm really not. I keep trying on the denial thing, but it doesn't fit.

As I said before, it could be plain ignorance. If that is the case, I don't want to be ignorant, but I also don't want to just accept that I'm in denial if it doesn't feel true. I'm not sure what to do with that one.

I'm really not trying to be stubborn.

Thanks for asking, Dorry!

Yes, it was this morning, and you know what? We're not ready to share it yet.

Today we're just enjoying feeling close to each other.
It feels pretty wonderful to be basking in the warm glow of intimacy with my husband.

He sure is special.

awww - you never have to share it you don't want to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am glad you are having a good close day my dear - you guys DESERVE it!

Couldn't stop myself from making a little list...

1) Wow.. that was nice to read :-)
2) See #1
3) Keep it up, would ya?!? :-)

I'm not trying to be obstinate...I'm really not. I keep trying on the denial thing, but it doesn't fit.

As I said before, it could be plain ignorance. If that is the case, I don't want to be ignorant, but I also don't want to just accept that I'm in denial if it doesn't feel true. I'm not sure what to do with that one.[/quote]

How far has "feeling" gotten you? If thats working for you, then that is your answer, and mine won't work for you.

It's no secret that I'm a very emotional, feely kind of person. I don't know another way to be.

I am, open-minded, however, and willing to explore another way.

I'm sorry. I guess I'm just not getting it. I want to.

By the way, how are you today? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have I told you lately that I appreciate your patience with me?

No you aren't open minded. You want recovery your way.

Marital recovery is not intuitive, and in fact, Dr Harley points out repeatedly that following your "feelings" about your marriage will get you into trouble.

Personal recovery isn't anymore intuitive.

In my opinion you are a very emotional person because you choose to allow your feelings to run your life. In fact, many of your feelings do not reflect reality because you have too many hurts and too many fears running the show.

These broken feelings are what has caused you to end up where you are today. But it's certainly your right to choose to attempt to feel your way into recovery.

I'd simply have to ask you (in a Dr Phil voice): How's that working for you?

You don't not-know how to be otherwise. You are choosing not to be otherwise. Pure and simple. It is simply a decision.

And if you still think I just don't understand you ~ let me point out that my personality type is an INFP . Ya don't get much more emotional and feely than that.

I'm sure it's no coincidence that I am an INFP, as well.




Maybe, but here I am...listening and trying to understand.



I want it ANY way. I HAVE made progress. I am willing to try to understand a different way, but it's foreign and I am having a very difficult time understanding.



I'm choosing what I know. How's it working for me? I don't know. I am making progress. If another way would offer more rapid progress, I'd sure be willing to give it a shot. I've asked question after question until I understand more of what you're saying. Some things I've grasped better than others, and am working to apply them, although it's a process and I don't expect to be perfect at it right off the bat. I'm ready and willing to practice until I get it right. But, I can't practice something I don't understand.

I'm struggling to understand, here. I want to.

I will toss out my opinion on this last post of yours. I certainly appreciate you taking the time to even talk about these things with froz.


Not true. She is open minded. Maybe not on ALL things, but who is. No matter how open-minded I make myself, I will never understand the need to rape a child(remember that discussion??) Well, that is close-minded isn't it? Or is it acceptable that I am not open to that and we can forego calling me close-minded because it is close-minded for a good cause. I don't see the value of satanism. Am I close minded to that? Anyway, not that I have made a point here, but I don't find her to be close-minded. Close-minded is the BS that is not trying to forgive. Close-minded is the BS that packs up and ships off without ever trying. Close-minded is the WS that never looks outside his own selfish shallowness to see other people. Or better yet... Close-minded is the person who is told a better way by an expert in the subject, and blows it off because they think they know better.

Froz is not close-minded. She has listened when told 'attacking me' (LBing) is not helping the situation no matter how much she wants to. Even in crying during a discussion, she still listens to me and takes what I have to say under consideration. I think that would be an instance of her being emotional and still finding the way to be open-minded.

Or maybe I missed the mark of your point?


I assume when you say 'intuitive' you mean like a software application is intuitive. It has built in designs that 'tell' you haw to work the program, so to speak. I would agree. Recovery is not intuitive. In fact, it is difficult. No wonder many people here don't achieve it. It is extremely difficult to try and compromise with a person that has cheated on you. I imagine she has thought "why should I do anything for him... he owes me for all this pain" But.... she has not truly done that. She has always been on the look-out for and inquisitive of tools and tactics for navigating this 'recovery' so that the end is 'better happier marriage' and not 'see ya, would want to be with ya'


I agree with this idea. She has had many feelings or emotions that have made decisions for her. But, coupled with that, she has had the most horrid pain from all of this and is probably not running on all 8 cylinders all the time.

I told her I loved her. She didn't feel it. So, I guess your remark was true about her not living in reality. The reality was I love her. She did not 'feel' it. But, recovery is as much about learning yourself as anything else. She has made tremendous strides in learning better ways to react, vent, discuss and so on.


I think by being INFP, you probably do understand some about froz. You are emotional. So is she. But lets be honest. No one knows everything about anyone. So, your understanding is good... great in fact, but it doesn't imply correctness to the degree of 100%.

I guess I say all this because I want to protect her. Not from you. Just from further hurt. And whereas I think some of your advice is great and dead-on... or at least something to definitely consider... I don't think everything you have to say is right on. I hope that does not come across as offensive. I am hoping it comes across as further things to ponder, and if they don't fit, then they will be discarded by you. I will never profess to be an expert on anything around here. I know my wife pretty well though.

Again, I want to say thank you for all the time you have put into talking to her. You have brought up some very good points and a large number of things to consider. It is very giving of you to participate in our recovery. She grows everyday.

Just some ideas and ponderings of a FWS... Hope to hear from you again soon. Please take care.

Froz ~ I've been kidding around on the forum about how stubborn I am. I can joke about it now. It was not something to joke about several years ago.

I fought my Al-anon sponsor ~ a woman that I had sought out and asked specifically for her help ~ every step of the way. She had recovery, in a way that I envied. I wanted what she had. So I asked her to help me get what she had.

And then the wars began.

I accused her of not listening. I would tell her something that I believed about myself and she would have the NERVE to disagree with me.

I assumed this was because she wasn't listening to what I was saying.

I thought if I just explained to her a little better, if she just listened a little more, then she'd really get me.

Guess what?

She never "got me" as I thought she should. She saw the heaps of lies I told myself and others, and told me exactly how it was.

I protested that I was trying. I even spouted "progress not perfection" at her! (To try is to lie.)

Again, I told her that she just didn't understand me. (My protests were full of "But..., and I know...")

I told myself - well she's human, she makes mistakes too. I figured she was projecting herself onto me. She just jumps to conclusions, she isn't infallible!

When I finally began to acknowledge the truths about myself that she saw long before I did, I still fought her.

But....! What if? HOW? I know! I need to understand! I'm TRYING!

All of these protests were simply because I wanted recovery my way.

My mind was completely closed to acceptance and completely unwilling to surrender to anyone or anything else.

I wanted recovery, but I didn't want to follow the path my sponsor showed to me. I wanted to arrive at her location (happy joyous and free) by a path of my own devising.

I wanted it my way. Period.

Now, in my opinion, you are just as stubborn as I was. You are just as determined to maintain the facade of who you think you are and clasp those false truths to you in an desperate attempt at protection.

I am not your sponsor. You haven't asked me for that kind of help. Nor do I think you should. I am simply a faceless person on the internet offering her opinion. We don't have the relationship I had with my sponsor.

I'm not going to carry on a huge unwanted battle with you on these boards, especially as you don't know me, and therefore have know way of knowing what it is that I have that is worth fighting for ~ or even if you want what I have.

I am not angry or mad at you. I am not saying that I won't post to you or offer my thoughts.

I have no need to be right here.

My recovery was not out of great flashes of understanding, or my great intellect and wisdom, but from eventually being willing to surrender and accepting the wisdom of someone else. It was not an intellectual awakening, but a spiritual awakening.

My recovery was a decision to surrender my will. No trying, no understanding, nothing but simply becoming willing to give up my will.

Patriot ~


This desire to protect is a good thing, and a very bad thing.

If you attempt protect Froz from all hurt and pain, that life dishes out, you will be protecting her from the experiences she needs to learn and grow.

I can tell you that in my life, I made the mistake many times of well meaning protection, and in the end, I discovered the ugly truth. That I believed the other person was not capable of handling life experiences. That I believed I was smarter and stronger and should therefore decide what the other person should deal with.

I thought I was God.

Much of what Froz needs to hear is going to be painful. Growing is painful.

If you protect her from pain she will not grow.

I understand, that some of your protectiveness comes from horrible guilt that you must be experiencing from watching her pain.

You didn't cause all of her pain, no matter how convenient it is for both of you to blame you.

If it is all Patriot's fault, its under Patriot's control. You are already both in a power struggle...hmmm...see the connection?

Protecting her from your own faults and weakness on the other hand, is a very very loving thing to do.

BrambleRose,

I didn't view our discussions as "battles". I viewed them as exploration. You have helped me to explore many things here. They have been useful to me, and others here have stated it has been useful to them, as well.

I am so very grateful for the time you took to do that, and the manner in which you have shared yourself in doing so. I understand a "tough love" approach and I never perceived it in any manner other than a giving one.

I do see a lot of paralells and have learned much from our discussions. It's a wonderful gift to have someone take the time to give an objective perspective of yourself and your actions. I take it as such, and I will say thank you again.

There are some points you raised that I agree with, and some that I do not, respectfully. That is my right. It doesn't necessarily mean that I am in denail, simply because I disagree. You also have a right to your opinion, as does anyone on this forum. I can't control what anyone else thinks.

I do know that I am not closed-minded. I also know that I do desire intimacy with my husband. Do I fear intimacy in general? No, I do not. There is a certain element of fear involved in intimacy with Patriot, simply because he has hurt me in the past. To open myself up to intimacy with him is to be vulnerable. I am willing to be vulnerable. It's a risk I have chosen to take. It's scary, sure...but it would be an exercise in futility if I chose to remain in this marriage with a complete unwillingness to be vulnerable.

I really appreciate the fact that you let me know you weren't angry with me and that I can hope to hear from you in the future. I could be mistaken, but that tells me that you were concerned I may perceive it as a rejection. I don't, but I think it was kind of you to care whether or not I felt rejected.

I will continue to ponder some of the points you raised.

Just for the record, I didn't go whining and crying to Patriot. That's not why he "defended" me. I don't presume to know precisely what motivated him, and I wasn't emotional or upset about anything you said. As I said before, I completely understand (being familiar with Al-Anon) a tough love approach. I also understand the concept of enabling, and I don't think that's what Patriot was trying to do.

We both understand that growing is painful. We are also both aware that a lot of my pain stems from my childhood, long before I ever met Patriot. Some of it he IS responsible for. Some of it he is not.

Thank you again, truly, BrambleRose.

Our session with Dr. Harley was amazing.

We talked with him together for a few moments and answered some questions, then we each talked to him separately.

I went first.

I really liked his approach. I like that he views sessions as "Marriage Coaching", rather than counseling. So many of his views were very different from MC's we've had in the past.

Patriot and I were both glad that Dr. Harley seemed impressed with a lot of the progress we have made on our own. He said some of it just needed tweaking.

He said that I haven't healed properly. He gave the analogy of the both of us coming to him for a fitness program to get into shape. He said it would be unlikely that I would be able to participate in his fitness program if I have a large gash in my leg. He said we needed to heal that wound properly before I begin a rigorous fitness program. That made perfect sense to me, and seemed like a very logical explanation for why I seem to fall behind in Recovery sometimes. I look forward to healing that wound properly, although I know it won't be painless. I'm ready to heal. Walking around with a gash in my leg kinda sucks.

He also noted that the more creative the individual, the more the need for details of an A seems to arise. I am extremely creative. Again, his explanation made perfect sense.

Patriot spoke with Dr. Harley next. I can't share his portion of the session, because they spoke alone.

After they talked, I joined them again and we talked about a plan for action. We were given some assignments. Right now my assignment is to fill out the EN Questionnaire again, only this time, instead of listing how well Patriot is meeting those needs, I am to list things he can do in order to meet those needs...give him examples. Patriot was given the same assignment and we are to fax our questionnaires to Dr. Harley.

I don't know what Patriot's other assignments are. It was something about exploring "why's".

I felt almost elated after our session. As it turns out Patriot did, too. Odd, as the majority of the session we spent talking to Dr. Harley separately. I think it just felt GREAT to have a plan. It also felt great that he thought we were on the right track. Dr. Harley made it seem not only possible that we would recover, he made it seem quite likely.

It was worth every penny to me.

That is awesome froz - I am so happy you guys called him!

(((HUGS)))

I have to agree. Dr. Harley is quite good coaching on the phone.

The greatest thing about the call was that we were talking to an MC that knew the MB principles. For as obvious a statement that may be, I believe where we have fallen short with MCs locally is they have not been MB experts, and thus, have not met our expectations completely.

He did state all we needed was some tweaking and that what we had been doing up to now was not futile in the least bit.

He asked a number of questions that I think were to find out where I was at on the ideals that he follows and were I was having difficulty. Ha also gave me the 'wounded leg' analogy, which made perfect sense. In discussing with me, he did talk about what I needed to do to assist Froz healing the wound. My assignment has 3 parts. Why, which is the discussion of how I was able to have an A. Granting that I made the decision to do it, and therefore am totally responsible for it, he did talk some about ENs and hwo they play into things. The next is validate. Which, simply put, is get froz to buy it. Understand it. Last was a plan. That will be something she and I will have to discuss. But she is a plan kinda girl.

I did feel very good about the session. Dr Harley and I did talk about the fact that forz and I were a little different than most folks in that she and I were coming to him after trying recovery for a while and come to find out, being fairly successful. Anyway, I have the EN assignment as well, which I have done. I told froz my top 5 from that yesterday, because it moved around a little bit since the last time we did these.

Also, we looked into the INFP and INTP and so on stuff. It seems I am ENTJ(extroverted intuitive thinking judging) and when Froz read through some of it, it sure seemed to fit me.

On a down note, I feel bad because yesterday I was pretty busy when I got home, or I was playing a game on the computer and she was on the phone... and then time ran away and it was bedtime. She wanted to discuss the INTP and all that stuff and I was just tired and wanted to go to sleep. At first I was listening but I wanted her to hurry up and come to bed. She didn't and after a while I asked if we could discuss it tomorrow. She said that she hadn't gotten any time with me(implying that she was getting her time now) I was irritated because I wanted to go to bed. From there it just didn't go well in my mind, although we didn't have it out or anything. I just felt bad because I was tired and would rather go to sleep that stay up and discuss the stuff with her. Anyway, I felt bad and said I was sorry. She said there was no need. But, it is these kinds of instances that start us on the downhill slope of her not feeling close to me and so on. It is great to have good reccovery times and to feel close to her. But, they don't seem to last long as I wish they would.

I can't babble on this any more.

I love this word .... especially in this context.

Carry on you two <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pitbull Rose said:


Mine too. I remember exactly where I was .... on the floor of my closet with the doors closed. In the dark .... on my knees, surrounded by my shoes. I was totally utterly lost having been my own ego-god.

I'm a very smart woman. I have published in medical journals. I could not make this recovery work using my intelligence. All my usual 'tools' had failed me. I was circling the drain, going down ... dragged down by my own fighting for control .... I surrendered to God's will that day. And I re-surrender daily (sometimes several times a day) with the serenity prayer.

I visualize myself in His arms, like a child. Sometimes this puts me back into perspective.

Pep,

Thanks for sharing that.

I think I need to tape it to my forehead.

What? Just the assignment? Or was there more, if you don't mind sharing it.




Sorry you felt bad. I understood. Close times don't last as long as I'd like them to, either. Don't worry, though...we'll "tweak" it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not more really.

Why
Validate
Plan

just you and I expounding on that was the deal.

And I am greatful you are willing to tweak things with me.(I certainly hope bob and his perverted friends don't mis-read that line) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So, I'm wondering...

If I do as Pep suggested and go sit myself in my closet, surrounded by shoes, will I suddenly have all the answers?

I have no idea how to communicate with this man. I have no idea how to give him whatever it is that he wants. It seems as though what he wants is to don the rose-colored glasses and make believe as though everything is just fine.

I don't necessarily want to constantly focus on everything bad all the time, but if an issue exists, I would like to address it. I would also like him to address something if it's a problem for him. He doesn't seem to be willing or able to do that. If he is upset with me about something, he simply chooses to ignore it.

I think he is quite angry with me for not playing along with his game of make-believe.

He asked me tonight if it's conflict-avoidance if he just doesn't want to talk about anything bad. I didn't know how to answer him, so I didn't. I don't know that I really have an answer for him. Maybe I just didn't want to get into the conversation with him. It just feels like we've been there a thousand times. He never seems to get what I'm saying. Sometimes he even acts as though he does get it, but the end result is never any different. I get tired of having my words fall on deaf ears.

I get really tired of having to try to figure everything out for him. I can't make him get it. I can't control him, and I'm tired of trying to.

He doesn't seem to take much initiative unless I'm angry or it's crisis time. I have no desire to create a crisis to get my needs met or to get anything accomplished towards Recovery. I really don't want to play games. I just want to mutually work towards a goal...together.

I'm also pretty angry (yeah, I said angry) that it seems like the bar is set so much higher for me. I'm sure that sounds selfish, but I feel as though so much more is expected from me, simply because I am capable of more. Everything is expected of me, so I do it. I feel like there are all these expectations on me. That equates to any effort I make being nothing special, because it's expected.

On the other hand, if he makes some effort to be honest with me or something similar...it deserves huge accolades. Isn't that something that should be a given? That's just one example. There are many more. I'm tired of leading this thing. I didn't create it and I don't want to lead it.

I've told him what I need from him. I ask him for something specific, he forgets. Well, we can just chalk that up to his poor memory. Although it seems to me, he definitely doesn't forget the things that are important to him. He doesn't forget things when it comes to work or school or something that he is interested in. I wonder if he even really cares about what my EN's are. He keeps trying to give me what he would want, I guess.

He's frustrated, too. He actually just walked in here and said he was dying to know what I was posting so he could figure out how to fix this. This floors me, because none of this is anything I haven't already told him a thousand times. But, because things are tense...THEN he wants to try to do something. When I refuse to play make-believe...THEN he wants to take action.

I don't get him. I have told him precisely what it is that fills my needs. He knows this. He forgets, anyway. So, because my love bank is pretty much drained...then he gets motivated. He actually asked me to remind him what it was I already told him by making a "honey-do" list of things that I have told him would make me feel more fulfilled in this relationship.

That was pretty darn frustrating, considering I have told him over and over and he just doesn't seem to make it enough of a priority to remember or to actually listen or hear me. This is not a case of me not communicating these things to him.

The fact that, only when things get tense, he asked me to write him a reminder list makes me feel pretty unimportant. I'm not expecting him to be a mind-reader. It would just be really nice if I were important enough for him to pay attention. I don't really feel important when I have to write it down as though it were a list of chores.

I wonder how he would feel if he were expected to do that for me to make it a priority to meet his needs.

Besides, he has my EN Questionnaire. If he wants a list...there it is in black and white.

His asking me to make it a list feels like I have to constantly badger him to get what I need. I don't want to badger.

I don't even feel like I care to be close to him these days.
I'm sick of chasing him. It always feels as though any thing nice he does for me is some huge sacrifice or effort on his part...like spending time with me.

How is it supposed to make me feel great when he spends time with me if he views it as some great sacrifice? It really comes off sounding so arrogant to me.

He actually told me the other day that he doesn't mind spending time with me. It's also fine with him if he doesn't. That made me feel very unimportant. It did not make me feel very valued.

I'm supposed to rise up, change all my perceptions, so that I can somehow grasp how that's supposed to make me feel valued by him? There have been too many things that make me feel completely unvalued, including the A. I don't feel valued. It feels like everything is all about him. This whole relationship has been about him. The A was about him. Recovery is about him.

Recovery is about what he is capable or willing to give. It rarely feels like it's about what I need. I needed details. I needed to understand what happened. But, because he was scared to do that, he didn't. Why is it all about what he needs? Why is it always about protecting him or making him feel safe?

I feel about as far away from him as I could be, and completely apathetic. That doesn't feel good. It makes him uncomfortable to discuss anything negative, and I'm sick of pushing him. If he doesn't want to deal with conflict, I can't force him.

OT: I've been thinking a lot about my birth mother today. The last I knew, she and her family live in New Orleans. I'm worried. I am a pretty decent investigator, and I may be able to find a brother in the Dallas area that I recall she said she was close to. I haven't talked to her in about 15 years. I thought about trying to find him, just so I could ask if she and her family are safe, but I'm afraid. I'm wondering which is worse...worrying and not knowing if they are safe, or trying to find out and risking further rejection from anyone in her family.

Feeling empty feels pretty...well, empty.

I seem to have misplaced my rose-colored glasses.

Can I interject two quick points? First a comment....seems like a good step for both of you with this journal...hope it speeds the recovery for you both.

Second, did the "issue" of a possible "other child" ever get resolved?, or is that still clouding the "recovery" path? Sorry if I missed this..I admittedly have not kept up with your story.

BOL.

LEM....

Froz and Patriot,

Is there any chance that Patriot is a high functioning ADD? Several of your descriptions sound as though it could be a possibility. Particularly the bit about him not reacting until someth8ing has become a CRISIS..then having amazing clarity. No more thread jack..just a thought.

Noodle

LM,

Glad to report there is no OC. OW gave birth August 31st. Patriot's final encounter with her was November 5th of last year. That would put us in the clear by about 5 or 6 weeks, I think. Hallelujah for that! Our path seems clouded enough sometimes without having to deal with that.

Noodle,

About the ADD thing...I have no idea. I don't know that it's something he has ever explored. I am not familiar at all with the signs or symptoms of ADD. Do you think it's something to look into?

Not a threadjack, by the way. I'm always grateful to hear from you.

Patriot & Froz

I'm so delighted to hear how well you're doing with SH coaching!!! YEA!!!!

I remember these early assignments well! It is such a huge relief to have such a PRO guiding your recovery. It doesn't feel like you're carrying such a huge burden any longer. Each person is responsible for his/her part of the recovery!

There will probably be rollercoaster moments as a result of what you dig up during the healing process. But as long as you keep the end result in mind it makes hurtling the bumps easier.

Blessings to you both!

Whew.........I am breathing a nice sigh of relief for you both on this. I am glad that I asked.

BOL

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm breathing a sigh of relief as well.

I was kinda scared that Dr.LM was going to tell me (in your most doctor-like voice)..."There are some women whose gestational cycles can extend a few weeks, blah blah blah (Froz medical talk), thus it is still a possibility."

The fact that you seemed to agree that it wasn't possible leaves me enormously reassured.

Phew for me, too! To have a medical professional such as yourself agree is only further validation for me.

Noodle,

Is the lack of ability to remember anything a symptom, by chance? If so, ADD could be a high probability.

I even bought him some Ginkobiloba. He keeps forgetting to take it!

Froz ~ when you are learning to speak a new language...its uncomfortable, and sometimes you might need to carry a dictionary with you, full of scribbled notes to yourself, especially for communicating with those who are speaking their native language, and don't really understand WHY ITS SO DARN HARD FOR YOU TO GET IT.

Holy crap, I think alot of women on this board would be fainting if their husbands asked for a list.

You said he's ENTJ?

So is my husband (now I really dare you to tell me that I just don't get you!).

ENTJ's love lists. Action items are their speciality. Fix things, do things, lead the charge yadda yadda yadda.

Nothing pleases my husband more than to see me making a list. Lol ~ darn he's hung up on the things. He loves them. He thinks they are the way to get stuff done.

An ENTJ making a list is a darn serious thing. This is LOVE Froz, not disregard.

Go back to the beginning of this thread and read my birthday story again.

The problem, once again, is you. Your expectations of what it looks like to see Patriot learn a new language are what are out of kilter.

Expectations are premeditated resentments.

Now, don't get me wrong. Not saying Patriot isn't screwing up. I'll let the guys take a 2x4 to Patriot. (Which of you gentlemen would like to step up to the plate here?)

Believe me, the standard bar for Patriot is very high. And SH will hold Patriot to it.

But geez Froz, give the boy a break too. How much fun are you to be around?

Do you want to be married? or just in charge?

If your life revolves around all these heavy issues, and you cant have fun or be happy until they are resolved....well you are going to be one miserable gal, of your own choice. And your husband is going to just bloody give up.

Oh ~ and I know you read my long story about the stroke I had.

So you know I have some impaired mental issues.

I have to keep lists - detailed lists - both in my email software "To Do" and in a little black notebook that I haul around with me.

If I don't write it down, I will forget. It does NOT mean that I don't care. It means that I really can't remember.

In fact when I am stressed, I will wake up all night long in a panic about what I might have forgotten, and I will dream all night of trying to remember.

So.

If your husband is making a list - don't assume he doesn't care.

haha, yet another point popped in my head.

I hate lists. I only use them because I have to.

Of course you see lists as insulting.

Lists are cold, disconnected, unemotional things. Structured, obvious, not very interesting.

I totally get that.

ENTJs do not feel that way about lists.

So hun, stop fussing about the means he is using to get to the ends (learning to love you in your language).

And for heavens sake, get off the pity pot.

Hi, frozen.

BR is right on about the list. That is huge.

The reason it seems that you have so much more work to do is simply because of the way the male brain is wired at patriot's age. His ability to process emotion is not even one tenth of yours. In his brain, dealing with an emotional state comes under the list of things he has to do today. You simply can't expect reactions that are very similar to your own. No matter how hard he tries, he is unlikely to feel about something - anything, the same way, or to the same depth that you do.

I still listen to my own wife discuss (complain?) about a situation, and even though I know better, I find myself wanting to fix it as a problem, rather than just letting her unload while I listen intently. She lets me know when she actually wants me to fix something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry if I am restating the obvious/previsously discussed. My time to keep up with everyone closely is limited these days.

Patriot, have you been pursuing your wife?

God bless,
Gimble

BR,

I apparently misunderstood about the list. After he read my post, he clarified for me that the "honey-do" list was actually about household chores and fixit-things or whatnot.

Also, doesn't surprise me one tiny bit that you say my problem is me. It doesn't surprise me because I know it's probably true.

Even though I misunderstood, it was never the actual list that I had an issue with. It was the fact that he only seemed to care about the things I wanted when things were bad. I guess I was reiiterating that he only seems motivated to meet my needs if things get really bad. He only wants to do the things he's willing to do, no matter what I tell him I need.

For example, on occassion I have asked him if he would stay awake for a little while until I fall asleep. I only ask if I am having a particularly bad night. I know this probably seems like a ridiculous request, but it really does help me with the nightmares and such. I'm prone to panic attacks and it helps me feel safer if I know he is awake watching over me until I fall asleep. I doesn't take me that long to fall asleep, so I don't view this as an enormous request. I guess he does. He gets angry if I even ask, so I've stopped asking. He says he's tired...fine.

However, it is completely expected by him, as one of my duties to arise at 5:30 am and get up to make his coffee and breakfast and pack a lunch for him to take to work. Do you think I am not tired at 5:30 am...particularly when I don't sleep well at all? I am. But, I continue to do it because it's important to him.

His solution to this will probably be that I just stop getting up in the morning to do this for him, which is SO not the point. I don't mind giving to him. I mind that it is expected of me. I mind that it's viewed as "my job" instead of something special I do for him.

I know this probably sounds ridiculous and maybe it's a poor example.

I really have no problem with lists. Either I am not actually a INFP, or my upbringing overrides the distaste for lists. There is NO ONE who is a bigger list-maker than I. I LOVE lists. I have lists for my lists, all specially categorized into sublists for the sublists. Both of my parents are huge list makers, as well. I supposed I learned that from them. I don't view list-making as a flaw in the least. Without my lists, I would never be able to accomplish managing a household, running a business, and raising children.

I'm not saying he doesn't love me. I'm saying that if I tell him I need something from me, he does something different that doesn't meet my need at all. I feel as though he isn't listening to me.


This may very well be true. Meeting his needs doesn't necessarily come naturally to me, either, but I'm learning how to listen to him and do it, anyway.

I don't feel like the standard bar is high for him. It feels like I need to pole vault to get across my bar.

I don't know that I really want to be in charge at all. I just want to be as important in this M as he is! This may be my "victim" talking...but I'm angry that he makes his need for conflict-avoidance a higher priority than my healing.

I feel like I am, and have always been, the least important party of this relationship. What he needs always seems to come first.

How much fun am I to be around, you ask? Generally speaking, I would say that I think I am fun to be around. Even in the darkest times, I find a way to make him laugh. Even in the darkest times, I often look for a way to make him feel good and offer him kind words and encouragement. I guess that would really be a question for him.

How much fun is HE to be around? It's not easy, I'll admit. I hate it when a problem arises and he just runs from it. Or if I make a request of him and he immediately turns it around to be all about him again and what a failure he perceives himself to be. How much fun is it that I continue to be patient and wait for him to decide he can overcome his fears enough to make my healing a priority.

We're going on 10 months, here. He's yet to even really tell me details or exactly what it was that made him feel entitled to have an A. I don't think I've been hard on him. I've been patient and encouraging. That's not to say that I don't get pretty frustrated on occassion.




This sounds like you are telling me to lower my expecations or my standards. How much lower could they be? I think even Patriot would agree that I don't ask for or require much. I'm not exactly high-maintenance and the smallest things make me happy. He just chooses to give the things he wants, instead of the things I've told him make a difference.

Hopefully, I have properly conveyed that I have no aversion at all to lists. I'm probably confusing you and making not a lot of sense, here. I do have a difficult time expressing myself in a way that doesn't get misunderstood.

I just want to be as important in this M as he is. I want my needs to matter, too. I want to feel valued. I want to feel pursued. I want it to matter to him whether we spend time together. He thinks I misunderstood what he said there and keeps contending, "But, I do want to spend time with you." The thing is, I never said I thought he didn't. But he also said he is fine if he doesn't spend time with me. I want to matter to him. I don't want to be irrelevant.



I'll expect a thorough whacking for this one, but you know what? If he gives up...let him. I haven't given up, and if he doesn't deem me worthy of the effort...so be it. I've told him time and again that I believe he is worth the effort. I've praised and praised for everything he's done, even the small things.

Does he not see that it is an awful lot of work to continue to overlook mistakes that genuinely hurt me in light of the fact that he has betrayed me and continually put his needs before mine? If he wants to give up, I'm not holding him prisoner.

This feels impossible sometimes. Maybe I should lower my expectations to zilch and be glad for anything I get. If he lies...oh well. He's trying not to.

I think I'm doing a horrible job today of explaining myself. It's been a crappy day all in all. I really am worried about my mother. I just want to know if she is okay. I've searched some victim and survivor lists, but I've found nothing.

He asked me tonight if Recovery is even possible. I'm beginning to wonder. Maybe sometimes it just isn't. SH said that I haven't healed properly. He forgot to mention what the proper way was.

You're right, I'm having quite the pity party today. I'm sick of feeling this way. I'm sick of feeling like he is the prized one of this M. I'm sick of trying to choke down the filthy things he's done. They disgust me.

I'm mostly rambling. No wonder I probably don't make sense.

Froz ~ you make perfect sense. I understand it all.

You married Patriot with the expectation that he now owed it to you to make things right according to your standards afterwards.

You aren't getting what you feel entitled to, and thats totally tickin you off.

I get that.

When I say that the problem is with you - I am NOT exonerating Patriot. I'm just not talking to Patriot. I'm talking to you about your part of your marriage. There's lots of parts of you that need work, no matter WHO you are married to. Let SH and the MB guys deal with Patriot and whatever his failings are.

The bottom line is, you choose THIS man, knowing that he was who he was. Now you are complaining that he isn't what you want him to be. He never was. You chose to marry him anyway and hope that he would be.

At the point you decided to marry a guy who betrayed you, you were choosing the whole messy painful nasty recovery or lack thereof.

You are in this by choice.

Period.

Thats why I am saying get off the pity pot. I am not saying that Patriot isn't screwing up or wrong. I'm just pointing out that you are hardly the victim. And as long as you see yourself as "poor me", you are going to continue to be frustrated and angry.

And...I suspect...the nightmares will continue as long as you see yourself as a victim. I know that part of my healing and the lessening of the nightmares happened when I took responsibility for the choices I made that landed me where I was.

Now, here is where I think you need to really talk to SH:


POJA. Policy of Joint (ENTHUSIASTIC!) Agreement.

No spouse is to ever sacrifice themselves for the other's gain.

You are sacrificing yourself for him and expecting him to do likewise.

That is NOT how POJA works.

And darn it Froz, do you see the ironic part of:


Stop insisting that he feel loved by it.

That's not what he needs you to do to feel loved by you.

Stop insisting that he speak your love language to feel loved.

Stop sacrificing your sleep and being ticked off that he doesn't feel loved when you do it.

As you have already predetermined, he will be happy to forgo his breakfast and lunch prepared by you, if it means he can go to sleep when he is tired.

Stop insisting that he do it YOUR way. POJA is a negotiated agreement that makes both of you happy. He isn't happy about staying up with you. He is willing to let you sleep in the morning if that helps.

Really, truely, talk to Steve about this.


Do you see all the disrespectful judgements here?


No I'm not. I'm telling you that your expectations need to be adjusted to something realistic. Not lower. Just different.

I'm just saying that you don't have to wait for everything to be resolved in order to relax and enjoy your husband. It's ok to let the problems go for awhile. Experience a little bit of what you are both working towards.

You don't have to choose to live in agony and pain every minute until its all resolved to your satisfaction. (Pain is a given, misery is optional!)

The truth is, you'll never get it all resolved exactly to your satisfaction. It is what it is.

I used to think what you have expressed too. It never got me very far.

You are not a prisoner here either Froz. If you don't like it, the door is open and available at any time.

As long as you choose, on a daily basis, to stay in THIS marriage, you have to buck up and take responsiblity for your choices, instead of blaming Patriot for your misery.

BR,

You're right. I know you are right about all of that, with the exception about me getting up in the morning to do all his crap for him. It does make him feel loved. He's told me it does, and he's been pretty angry with me at times for not doing it.

You're right...I have no right to be angry with him because I'm here. I chose to be here, knowing what he'd done.




Seriously considering this option today.

I'm enraged today and I'm too afraid to say much because it'll just be DJ's all over the place.

Pep will be thrilled to hear me say that I am angry with myself for marrying him, because you're right...I knew what he was all about. I chose it anyway.

Frozen..
I am watching your thread closely because I feel the same exact emotions you do. I feel your pain 100%. Even with 2 x4 's, it's tough to change/lower your standards when you're already in a vulnerable position. SH would say I'm not properly healed--but I've always been a slow healer, so how can I ever heal. Thank you so much for sharing your inner most thoughts--it is so nice to know you're not alone. Good luck getting through your anger!

It's ok to be angry...its what you do with the anger that can be a problem.

Go back up and read the post I wrote to you the first time you admitted to being angry.

Reread, follow the instructions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Find that private book and start writing. Let lose all the angry outbursts and DJs you need to in that book, not on here.

You're right. I forgot about the book. I did vent in an e-mail to a friend...said some pretty nasty things.

Patriot called. He wants me to come out to his work for lunch today.

I'm done being angry.

I just don't know where to begin sometimes. I also don't know why I have to keep "beginning".

I'm not leaving. I am committed to this marriage and I am making the choice to love him today. I do love him.

I get so frustrated sometimes because it seems like he wants me to do everything for him. I want to help him, but I can't do it all for him.

He is a good man with a good heart and I feel bad for being so darn hard on him sometimes.

I've been thinking maybe I'm not a INFP, after all. I haven't taken that test since I was about 15. I think I'll retake it later today, just to see.

If list-making is not a characteristic, I've changed a bunch since 15.

I wish someone could just tell me "Do A, then B, then C...and this will all be fixed."

Instead they say "heal, grow, change, etc..."

I need a plan. You can accomplish anything if you have a plan.

Sometimes it gets so hard to work towards anything or maintain some sort of focus because it hurts...really, really hurts. Marriage Building would be a snap without all this pain in the way.

I think I'll try that number I have for my biological mother's brother. I don't even know if it's the right number. I figure she already rejected me, so what do I have to lose? I just want to know if she's okay. If I try and don't get that information, I'm still at the same place (not knowing) so I might as well try.

I wish I could tell her that there isn't anything she could do to make me not love her. I wish she knew there wasn't anything I wouldn't forgive her for. I wish she didn't feel guilty.

Thanks for helping ground me. I really am done being angry today. I'll remember the book next time.

Froz,

Just a thought:

When issues came up with my husband, I would make a note of them in my SH MB notebook - so that I could remember to discuss them with him at the next coaching appointment.

A few days before the appointment I would fax him a compilation of things I wanted to discuss so that he would have information in advance. This helped me make the most of the time spent on the phone! Helped keep me organized too. And now I have a great notebook of my particular issues and the solutions for them that I can still review when I need to be grounded!

This is going to be a rough response, but I am going to give it a try.


me too. I am grateful that I don't have to manage this additional drama in our lives together. This one would fall under the 'too big to deal with' category. Not trying to run from it. But, I don't find it very productive to spend time trying to figure out how to eat without both unless I am actually missing both arms. It's great that I still have both arms, but what have I really gained by learning to eat without them? I guess I am trying to say that given the size of the issue(potentially) I opt to cross the bridge when I get there. I already knew about the pregnancy. I did worry about it. But, per NC, whatelse could I really do? I suppose I could have discussed my feelings with froz about it more, but in my mind that sure didn't seems to help much of anything. I am sure it would have been nice to simply communicate with my wife, but this was an issue I could not resolve. Either the baby is mine or not and whats done is done. Not sure if I am making sense on this... my communication skills are subpar at best. Baby or not, I don't want to live life in perpetual misery. Pondering the bleakness of this situation seemed just simply miserable. Nothing I could do to change it. Anyway, it certainly appears that the OC is not mine. Which is good. However, isn't the "yea!" from that tainted by the fact that I am even in the position of worry to begin with? Man, does that suck.


If I gain nothing else from this site the one thing I will have is more one-liner quotes than the archives at Readers Digest. Not that this is a bad line and I like the message it sends...but after I absorbed the idea from it, it made me think of the plethora of one-line tidbits of wisdom around here. We should all be rich, since Readers Digest pays like $300 dollars for printing your line. Anyway, thats my little humor anecdote for the day.


I love this woman. More than anything in the world. but, sometimes, she is no fun to be around. Sure, we have horrible issues to deal with. Yes, I caused them. The why is really not all that hard to comprehend for me anymore. I just have to tell froz. I have not been hiding it. I only found it recently. Anyway, I would not try to stay away from 'difficult" discussions during the good times if I thought we could stay in a good time for any length. So, I am selfish in that I want to be happy at least for some portion of a week. But, inevitably, we have a good time(like the timeframe after the call to SH) and then we don't talk about issues for a little bit. Then I see the 'good time' slipping away and I'll be damned if I am gonna just murder it with A talk. Or here's how I am a horrible person talk. Or whatever. All I am saying is I feel like I would be more able to discuss the elephants in the room if I thought I could get away from them(totally) for a timeframe to get a break. The biggest thing I need that I will not get is a vacation. I feel like I can't unplug. And I am running on overload as it is. So figure out a way to unplug, you say. Well, I would love too, but in the average day, I've got from around 5pm to 10pm to do anything around the house. This includes spend time with my wife(there are other times for that as well but I am just taking a generic case), upkeep on the house, relax(because a work day can be stressful), clean something(usually the kitchen for me and we have teenagers, so it is always a messy place), maybe read something for school, maybe work on something in the software area(since I am going to be falling back on those rusting skills soon for primary employment) and many other things that just continually come up, all of which I call life. The point is I need a break from things sometimes, and in 10 months, I can't think of one break I have gotten. Maybe there are some. I can't remember them. Every single day is filled with reminders and stresses. That gets old. Makes me edgy. Makes me want to just get away from it all any way I can. This arguement is easily destroyed I am sure, but people need time to decompress on an issue. Going out to the computer and playing a game would seem to fit the bill because I love a good computer game. It doesn't. I feel guilty for being on the computer. Nothing seems to have a good outcome. I try to relax, but no good because I have neglected her. I try to talk about an issue(granted, not often), but no good because she is not in the mood or she had to 'beat' it out of me so now she isn't interested.

Also, a different idea, maybe, that I just thought of. It is confusing for me that I am asked to discuss my feelings and how things make me feel, but when I do, I have 'made it about me" or invalidated her feelings.

How about this one. Because of the whole possible OC issue, she began communicating with OW's OM#2(yes thats right, like pork... the other other man.). She was after info about the pregnancy and the OW. This was during the "stalking" phase. Well, she has still talked to this guy as recently as this past weekend. Silly... I just thought by talking about this issue, that I would be "ratting" her out. Or maybe trying to rat her out better than she ratted me out. I'm not. She has gotten mad at me for being mad about it. Like 'you went out and screwed some OW for a year and a half and all I am doing is talking with this guy' and ' I feel entitled' I do not want this man to be a part of my life. Ever. Nor anywhere in it. That is not conflict avoiding. That is making a concise decision. He is not to be part of my equation in life. "what do you have against him" I heard. He obviously has no issue sleeping with a married woman AND he is now talking to you. There is more to this, but her defense is " I know I would never hurt you like you hurt me"

That is a lie. Maybe lie is to strong. What it really is.. is this. A statement made by someone who lacks the credentials to make it. A foolish remark. An uneducated statement. To believe you are not capable of something is bunk. And, I extend, makes you more vulnerable to do it....even if just a wee bit more. Anyway, ramble ramble...


No, Gimble. I have not. Not the way I would want her to pursue me. I recognize that as an issue. Sometimes I pick one thing up and drop another. And sometimes I just want a break. The bad thing about a break, is sometimes I don't know how to get back into it. Yes, I know this is an area of work I need to focus on.

More later. I have rambled and now it is time to go.

The single biggest reason I believe in her and I is this.

For all the things I need to learn and change I don't have to learn that I love her. I love her and that is fact. She is the greatest woman anywhere. As they say, the rest is just details.

Well, froz and I had a talk last night. She is very angry at me for not being able to try on her pain. She says I will never understand it and that my words here prove it.

I really am not trying to be short-sighted here, so, maybe someone could tell me what "trying on the BS's pain" works like. I definitely want to be more sensitive to her and not say things "that a dumba** WS would say because they don't get it"

Something interesting on the conflict avoidance front. Dealing with elephants. How do you deal with an elephant? one bite at a time. Not ignoring or avoiding them. But, something I thought was interesting was the fact that she (and maybe I helped) came up with this little formula for know when something is an elephant and needs to be talked about. When it is the most uncomfortable thing I cn think to talk about. Then talk about it. An interesting concept and was brought up by the "there might be an OC" issues. We did talk about it some, but it was still uncomfortable...so it warranted more discussion.

Also, instead of using so many I messages, I need to use more We messages. I know what that means. You don't have to...lol.

I would like to continue with SH soon, but the price of admission is a little steep... so I will have to work that in somehow.

More later, I am sure.

Yes, you behaved very badly. No doubt. However, you did not single-handedly cause all the "horrible issues" your relationship needs to work through.

Hi, Patriot.

Quote:
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Well, froz and I had a talk last night. She is very angry at me for not being able to try on her pain. She says I will never understand it and that my words here prove it.
=================================

The only way to try on someone else's pain is to imagine the roles reversed. The only way to understand someone else's pain is to go through a very similar circumstance yourself. Regardless, you will never completely know someone else's pain.

I will never completely know the pain I caused others, and brother, I caused some. No one will ever know much of my pain, as much of it has never, and will never, be revealed.

You will never understand Frozen's pain completely. You will be lucky to understand it partly. I pray that you never understand it because you go through what she has been through.

It is an unrealistic expectation to have another understand someone else's pain unless you have experienced it. All you can do is try to comfort and reassure her that you will never cause her such pain again.

Much of your pain you will unwillingly learn to live with, and it will eat at you until you find a place of forgiveness or acceptance. Even then, the memory of it will haunt you occasionally, just like Frozen's memories will haunt her. What has been done can not be undone.

God bless,
Gimble

Froz ... you have no business talking to OW's OM#2 .... THAT is not marriage building but distancing behavior on your part ! How do you like them beans?

Egg-zak-lee

Not sure what you're implying here. If you're trying to say that I have made mistakes in Recovery, I'll be the first to agree. If you're trying to say I helped lay the groundwork for the A, that is crap.




I have pretty much given up trying to get him to understand it. He just looks at me blankly when I describe it to him in vivid detail.

I'm not sure why it was so important for him to understand it. I just wanted him to understand how I felt more than anything. I really thought a lot of my behavior might not seem so bizarre to him if he knew what it felt like. I also wanted him to know, really know, how badly he hurt me. For if he knew, he would surely never do it again. I know what's done can't be undone, but how I wish it could! I would give anything to change it. But, like I said...I've given up trying to get him to feel it. It's futile.

As for praying he never has to actually go through it himself...no worries. That isn't going to happen. It just isn't. I will never choose that, not only because I don't want to hurt him, but because I have no desire to do something like that to myself.

Besides, I know that he wouldn't actually feel what I'm feeling if I did choose that route. He's not as emotional as I am and wouldn't perceive it the same way. Also, he would probably figure he deserved it. I don't want him to "try on my pain" THAT badly. It just would have been nice to feel understood.




How do I like it? Do you really think I'm going to disagree or try to justify it? I'm not. I knew it wasn't a good idea. I did it anyway. I won't talk to him anymore.

Froz,

If you and Patriot decide to coach with SH again he will address the following issue quite thoroughly.

"I'm not sure why it was so important for him to understand it. I just wanted him to understand how I felt more than anything. I really thought a lot of my behavior might not seem so bizarre to him if he knew what it felt like. I also wanted him to know, really know, how badly he hurt me. For if he knew, he would surely never do it again. I know what's done can't be undone, but how I wish it could! I would give anything to change it. But, like I said...I've given up trying to get him to feel it. It's futile."

It's a cornerstone of his recovery plan for Patriot. And it had to be one of the most difficult parts of coaching for my husband. He had to take several tries at it before SH gave him a passing grade and we could move on. And I'm happy to say when he finally was able to accomplish understanding my feelings regarding his affair - it was a huge turning-point for me, and helped me find real peace.

CSue,

SH actually did broach the subject with me. We didn't discuss it thoroughly.



That sounds like it would be beneficial, but I don't expect it anymore. If it happens...great. I'll be pleasantly surprised. If it doesn't, I'll just have to accept it.

By the way, I don't think I've ever told you that I appreciate your responses and the manner in which you share your experiences with me.

Sometimes I don't respond to something you've said to me, because it is usually information and food for thought, as opposed to questions. I just wanted to tell you that I listen to you, what you say is helpful, and I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Actually, my purpose in replying to Patriot was to GIVE HIM SOME ENCOURAGEMENT coz I think he needs some !!!! I don't think it is helpful for Patriot to feel that he carries the entire weight of every problem in the marriage 100% on his back. I admire your husband's efforts. I admire his struggle with his own failing .... a tough thing for any proud man to deal with. I'm trying to pick him up when I sense he's feeling overwhelmed.


Both of you have made mistakes in recovery as well as before the affair was even discovered. You're both human. Two kewl humans.


Of course that's crap. I would never say that. I hold Patriot accountable for his errors (especially BIG ones involving mortal sin as it is perceived in my religion), and you accountable for yours. Why? Because that is the only way to make things better .... everyone claiming ownership of their own errors.



I agree that it is a fine thing to understand the depth of how we harm others by our misdeeds. Except you cannot ~make~ your FWH understand .... that depends on his openness to understanding ... and that door is opened with much caution by the WS (not just your husband ... all WS) .... mostly because it involves addressing so much of their own shame it cannot be done all at at once. Too devestating.

This just floors me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I hope so.

I admire his efforts, too. I tell him pretty frequently. I also continuously remind him that I am grateful for his committment. He's nevered wavered on that one...not once.

I wish he would paint an accurate portrait of what really goes on here. His posts sometimes make it sound as though he is just this poor, helpless victim of the wrath of some vengeful psycho-hater wife.

I feel really misunderstood.

Of course, neither of us is perfect, yet he posts about his efforts and sometimes the lack of them...next thing you know...it's all "Poor Patriot...the poor guy is trying so hard. How does he put up with it???"

I post something and receive a slew of 2X4's, which is okay. I can obviously handle it and view it as an opportunity to grow.

It's just kind of irritating sometimes. Maybe it's because there aren't just tons of WS's or FWS's putting forth the effort, and there are tons of BS's trying so hard - I don't know.



Who's asking him to carry it 100%? Not me! In none of the responses he has received do I hear anyone holding him accountable for anything during Recovery. It seems the answer to every obstacle is "Froz needs to do this, and Froz needs to do that". "Froz needs to lower her expectations". "Froz needs to manage her anger." "Froz needs to face this or that".

He gets "Patriot, have you done this" His reply..."No, I haven't." "Oh, okay Patriot...keep up the good work."

????????????????

I have posted before for all to see "Things Patriot has done right". I tell him on an even more frequent basis in real life.

But, you know what? I cannot carry the responsibility of Recovery completely on my shoulders, either. I need help. The only way to light a fire under him is when I finally get frustrated with him and vocalize it. THEN he takes action. Then he stops, and he goes back to "Let's pretend everything is okay and stop working". I don't want to badger him to get anything done. I can't force him. So, I stop. Inevitably, we become distant because we aren't working together. Then he gets frustrated because we're distant!!!!

I make a mistake and get whacked for it. He makes a mistake and gets a pat on the back and a "You'll do better next time".



Geez, the poor guy...it's so devastating to face how you destroyed someone else. I'm sure it is.

It's no easy task to continue to love, be caring and supportive and kind to the very person who devastated you BY CHOICE! Guess what? I got to bear the burden of his shame...ALL AT ONCE! I try to choke it down every single day and still be strong enough to try to be supportive, kind and patient, while he continues to put his needs before mine and hold on to the belief that "I love her, so the rest is just details."

He loved me during the A, too. Where did that get us?

Vent concluded...I'm now an open target. Feel free to tear it to shreds.

I'm sure he'll need plenty of "support" after this.

This is frustrating.

It takes 2 healthy and strong and determined people to face the daunting task of recovery ... and I reserve the right to give your husband a bit of encouragement when I think it may help .... because in the long run ... it benifits you if it makes recovery more likely.

Surely you have no objection for Patriot receiving support, do you?

HE was asking it of himself. I pointed out that was an UNreasonable expectation ~of himself~.

I was not adressing your actions at all.

PS

You don't need anyone to tear you to shreds .... you do that just fine all by yourself !

Froz ~ it's late and i'm pretty exhausted so I won't give a more comprehensive reply.

After reading what you both wrote, I think that Patriot needs a break from relationship talk. Big time. My husband had the same identical issues with our recovery.

I had to learn to back off.

Believe it or not you need it to.

And finally, the sense of entitlement in either spouse is a relationship killer.

Oh and one more comment.

In recovery, the rules apply equally to both spouses. My husband was teh cheater. We both account to each other for time, share passwords, email access, we both keep our computers in public. We neither of us carry on any relationships that the other has a problem with.

Froz, if your husband objects to your relationship with a man, you darn well owe him the respect and courteousy of stopping that lovebusting behavior.

And that means, Patriot's feelings and needs carry equal weight to yours.

I'm glad he receives support, but not when supporting his behavior enables him to continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over.



Then let him! I have told him before to ask for what he needs. If he needs a break...TELL ME, and then do it. He won't.

After I read what he posted last night about needing a break, but saying he couldn't because he has all these responsibilities...my first thought was to give it to him. It is totally untrue that he "can't" take a break. He has a cushy government job with paid vacation...he has about a week accrued. I'm quite sure I can handle the household chores.

I told him, take a few days...take the whole week. I even offered a couple of suggestions for places to go. He has a friend out of state that would probably love a visit from him. My parents have a peaceful cabin at the lake about 3 hours away. GO UNPLUG, if that's what he needs. He declined. I told him I would totally be supportive of it. If it would help him, I would love for him to do it.

And I have backed off. I don't talk about this crap every minute of the day. HE DOES! In fact, he gets upset if I am not in the mood to talk about it.

I have also told him to play his computer games guilt-free. I told him I don't mind. I have told him repeatedly to just ask for what he needs, and I'll give it to him...I'll even do it cheerfully...whatever it takes to recharge him. I agree, and don't even consider it a sacrifice.

But, it's unfair of him to complain that he feels so pressured (to do what, I'm not sure) when he is unwilling to "decompress".



He has all my passwords, and I'm an open book. I have never lied to him about correspondence of any kind. I haven't lied to him about much at all, that I can recall. I account for my time, as well.

Owe? Does that not denote some form of entitlement? I agree I owe him that respect and courtesy. It's been taken care of. It's done.

But here's a question...if I owe him that, what exactly does he "owe" me?

Froz ~ did it occur to you that much of the pressure Patriot feels is likely from within?

You complained about the standards bar being too low for Patriot.

It seems to me (and remember, I'm married to an ENTJ) that his own standards bar is pretty high.

Not to say that it's always healthy. Guilt and responsibility and a desire to make things right are eating him up. It's his job to learn how to balance those things. As Pep was pointing out to him, correctly so, that he ISN'T as responsible or powerful as he makes himself out to be.

Lord knows I can identify with that. I drive myself at a pretty frenetic pace. I try to take on the responsibility of the world, and do it perfectly, and the stress can be a killer. Vacations and breaks are not something that my brain really understands. This is an area in myself that still needs alot of work.

I suspect your temper tantrums on here, on a pretty regular basis, trashing his efforts and complaining about what you don't get probably add alot to his pressure.

Honestly, I completely understand his reluctance to talk to you. I'm not saying he should not talk to you about all the details. But I sure understand the reluctance. I remember Steve Harley stressing to me over and over and over that I had to be a safe place for my husband. I didn't matter if *I* thought I was a safe place, my behavior was causing a reaction in my husband that made him feel unsafe.

One of the hardest lessons I've learned over the years is to separate out what is my husband's "stuff" and what is my "stuff". IE if he is uncomfortable with me, is it because I"m doing something wrong,or is it some thing in HIS head that is the problem. Even if it is HIS head, is there some way I can adjust to make him more comfortable?

You know...something interesting happened the other day. There was a period of about a year or more after recovery, that my husband would tell me he was running to the store for 10 minutes, and not come home for over an hour or 2, I never knew where he was going or what he was doing. Every other bit of his life was exposed to me, except this one part. Some would have said he was continuing his affair, but I knew he wasn't. I knew that he was likely running from me, and from the pressure of the "stuff" between us that I could never let rest as much as I protested that I did. I figured he was at a local bar, because he always came home happy. It made me NUTS. There were times I hopped in the car and went checking the parking lots of every bar in the area. I never found him. He would never tell me where he was. Eventually our relationship changed. I got calmer, less demanding and "heavy". This lessened his need to run. Home became a place that he enjoyed and didn't feel that he had to leave to 'unplug'.

Was his behavior ok? No way, he hurt me alot when he did that.

But it was understandable, if not excusable. He had to unplug and I wasn't exactly Miss Fun and Relaxing.

He later decided that hurting me was not exactly helping our marriage, and that it made things worse between us. I had stopped obsessing every moment of the day about him and our 'stuff', and was no longer making him feel the need to run. So he stopped.

Again, NOT excusing my husband. It was a childish, selfish thing for him to do. But MY behavior played a role in the environment that lead to his choices (where have we heard that before, hmm?).

It's been, gosh, a very long time since he's done that to me. Just the other day, we were driving through a local town and we were commenting on a local restaurant/bar. Out of the blue, he says: All those times I disappeared? I was here. (lol and I was embarrestd. It was a very classy joint. In my frantic need to know what was going on, I had been searching all the low class nasty joints. Never occured to me he was sitting some place nice with a cigar and a scotch!)

There you have it. I got my answers and I got my honesty, when I had completely LET GO. Let go of him, the need to control him, the need to know, the need to control everything around me..

So Froz, the tricky part here, is to read Patriot's posts, and figure out what is caused by his own issues and what is caused by your behavior. It's not so obvious as you think.

He's got his own issues and own demons to work on. As do you.

Pepperband in no way enabled Patriot. I'm a little surprised that took such offence at her supporting your husband.

The common theme in many of your posts Froz, is "All I do is give and I am unappreciated" and "Whats in it for me" and "I'm the hurt one, he's the bad one, when do I get mine" And behind it all is an expectation and a sense of entitlement that he owes you.

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Once you stop asking "What about ME" and turn your focus onw what should be given instead of received, you'll start getting what you need. As long as you ask "What about ME", you are actually quite closed off to Patriot.

You are missing out on a lot of good stuf from your husband my dear.

Okay, I hear you.

No more pressure from me for him to meet my needs.

I just don't get it, I guess.

This whole relationship has been about what he needs, and on his time schedule.

The A was about his needs.

Now Recovery is about his needs, too.

It's all about what I need to to for him.

I didn't take offense at Pep offering him support. I'm jealous. I'm jealous because others post things to him that I would so like to have...support, understanding, acceptance, admiration.

I also don't feel that he gives a true representation of what actually goes on here.

I don't really feel that you do, either. For all the times you say I trash his efforts and blast him, there are more times when I'm his cheerleader.

I'm not angry today. Today I am completely, totally, utterly beat down. I've been running on empty for way too long.

I give. I let go.

Froz ~ he gives HIS perception, HIS reality.

Which isn't yours.

Why is yours right and his wrong?

This is why I keep saying, Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

You are empty and exhausted from fighting Patriot for a relationship built exactly according to your plan, the "right" plan.

I also think its too bad that you do not recognize the support, understanding, acceptance, admiration you do recieve from many on this board.

I've spent alot of time posting to you on this thread Froz. Just curious, if I am not supporting you - then exactly what do you think I'm doing here?

You are supporting me, and I appreciate the time you take to do it. I thought I'd properly conveyed that. I apologize if I have not. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I am grateful.

Geez, the poor guy...it's so devastating to face how you destroyed someone else. I'm sure it is.

This is where your victim mode comes pouring out. You have to give someone permission to do this to you. Why do (did) you give him that power?

I would drop that mentality post haste.

committed

I gave him that power because I opened myself up to him in order to be a vessel. I opened myself up to him because I loved him.



Thanks for the advice.

I don't know where ti interject here, but I have a few things to say.

On the topic of "unplug"...I am not very good at all about scheduling a vacation. I was on active duty, single, and making really good money so bills were well taken care of. In 2 years I didn't take one day of vacation. I never even thought to plan one. Why? Because I am a worker. Vacations were never a 'popular' thing in my family because Mom, Dad and 3 teenagers is not easy to fund on teacher(mom) and struggling self-employment(dad). One year they both got second jobs for 4 months just to have christmas. Funny, I look back on that and what a sacrifice. But I also look back on it as time I was not bothered by parenting that I didn't agree with. I just don't plan vacations because they were never important. They never happened. Being a worker, a provider, a bread winner was what I was trained to do. Managing finances is something I have learned on my own as well. Many thing I have learned since leaving home(but who doesn't). But, vacations was never something I was good at. So unplugging via a vacation has never really been an option.

Also, there are two distinct things I want to unplug from. I hope I make it clea this time, because I have not up to now. Life. When I say I want to unplug from life THAT is talking about a vacation. A getaway. Go do something for a few days that does NOT deal with life. The stressful, billpaying, hitting appointments on time life. It is this unplug that I want to do WITH froz. When I want to unplug from my relationship problems, that is like go play a computer game for the evening, or read a book, or(and really would be the greatest) do something FUN with my wife where we can enjoy each other and truly set down the problems for a short time. I think when I posted about unplugging, it was immediately taken as "get away from froz". Not at all. Sure, I like being alone to myself sometimes, but I love being with her and enjoying each other.

On the being alone for a little bit(like to play a game or do some homework or something) I am the one with the issue now. I think for the most part. Froz used to 'offer' that I could go do something without her(like get on the computer) and then when I would chose what she offered, I would find out it had been a test and now she was upset that I hadn't chosen her. That caused guilt for me. I say that, not because I want her to be admonished for it. Quite the opposite. She has recognized this behavior as not very conducive to our relationship and she has really cut it out. I, however, still feel guilty for going to do my own thing. THAT is my issue and I need to work out.

This brings up an interesting topic. She feels the way she feels because a number of my actions have told her that she is not the most important thing to me in the world. I can say all day that she is. I believe in my mind and know in my heart that she is the most important thing to me. Rarely do I do anything of substance that tells her she is. And, I suppose I would need to do alot of showing her seh is the most important thing to me after having an A that told her she was NOT the most important thing to me. Now, those last few lines are not all mine because I never once during my A thought "the reason I am doing this is because froz does not matter to me". She did matter to me. That's why I didn't want her to know, because I didn't want her to be hurt. Anyway, I need to show her more that I love her and that she is the most important person to me.

I disagree that recovery is all about me. Me would internalize this and never try to 'feel' it out or talk about it. Me would have moved on and and said screw this, which is mean and selfish I am sure, but how would that be any different than having the A? Interesting that a BS finds out a WS is having an A, and then once exposed to the light of day, the BS gets mad at the WS for continued mean and selfish behavior. I have an explanation for it. Selfishness and survival. When the WS cares only about themselves and no one else, they will try to separate themselves from the 'pain', which would be the BS telling them how much the WS is a screw up or hated or whatever. Survival mode kicks in and the WS walks away, because no one wants to hear how they are horrible. And selfishness stays in full force because the WS then does what they want, regardless of what the BS is asking for.

I am different than that. I stayed. I am trying to work through my problems. I am making progress. I am facing her pain everyday. I am facing my past actions everyday. I am taking steps to ensure my marriage is affair-proof. I participate in things I would not, nor have I ever, participated in. I do all the things I do, feel horrible for all the things I fail at, want the greatest marriage ever because my wife is the most important thing to me.

Praise for me has been an issue. I do not want it for what I just said(though I hate to presume people would praise me for saying those things) I have one mission. I want my wife to read these words and feel, yes feel, loved and important.

I am here, posting, talking, working, discussing, failing, succeeding, and all the other things I do, because you are the most important thing to me. Sure, I am learning and growing which is for me. But I am driven to do these things because I want to make my wife happy. I want her to be safe, protected and happy.

But the true goal to me is this. Recovery is about WE. And guess who reminded me of that in a discussion not 2 days ago.

Froz did. She is extremely intelligent and she is trying SO hard. In the face of her extreme pain. In the face of her destroyed self-worth. She truly is the most valuable person to me. She has faced so many demons that I placed in front of her. I know one thing she no longer says. She no longer says she is not strong. She knows she is. Anyone dealing with this crap would have to figure that out sometime.

Anyway, again, just a ramble. I want my wife to feel loved and important. That is my goal. She and I have planning to do. I have talked with her about doing some planning. We will get it done.

Lord, I can relate to "I'm jealous".

When we began recovery, Mr. Pep had tons of support via AA meetings. I was jealous of that support, jealous of the time he spent with AA getting that support, and I was also jealous of the good feelings he experienced about himself when he got support and encouragement.

The jealousy was like a nasty cancer eating away at my soul. God Froz, I was miserable with myself when I was experiencing jealousy of good things happening to someone I love. I could not admire or like myself for having that jealousy. I am so glad you managed to "name" the disease you have right now, and once you name it, you can work on getting rid of it and breathing cleaner emotional air ....

journal about all the things you are jealous of and what the toll that jealousy is taking on YOU !

I don't feel that way. It was an isolated incident - that particular jealousy - and not a pattern.

Ordinarly, I am thrilled when Patriot receives positive feedback and I love it when he feels good.

So, rather than a nasty cancer eating at my soul, we'll just call it a few cells that have quickly been removed.

gotcha

good for you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Patriot ~ I got what you meant by unplugged, hence my little story about my husband's method of unplugging.

I think your need to decompress is very real and should be met - not necessary by Froz, but at least with her agreement and cooperation.

Speaking of computer games ~ my husband and I play Everquest together. He gets to decompress, it means we are doing something recreational together, I find it fun to be mindless for a bit, and it means that we interact in a positive way in the evenings, instead of both sitting at separate computers doing our own thing.

Now the kids play too. All our kids friends are jealous because they have "gamer" parents.

Funny little aside, we were driving to NH on vacation, and my husband was making little game related jokes that the whole family 'got' because of our gaming, but not another NORMAL (yes, I freely admit, BRs house is a house of Geekdom) person would have gotten. We got alot of giggles out of it.

Maybe you 2 can find something that serves more than one purpose also. Find something that you both have in common.

And Patriot, I do think you are doing a courageous thing by staying and actually posting on here. My husband would never do such a thing. I think that alone is proof you love Froz.

As for making her feel loved and important ~ aaaah, well ... hun, some of that is not really in your power.

You see, Froz does not believe she is lovable and important. So she is constantly on the outlook for proof of her perception that she is not lovable. This is what Pepperband has been trying to get her to see.

You can not fill or heal this wound for her. It started far before she ever met you.

She has to heal herself, and learn to love herself before she'll ever really truely know that you love her and think she is important.

That doesn't mean you should give up and not love her. And that you should stop trying to be the best husband ever. It just means that you too have to drop the expectation that when you act with loving intention that she will recognize it.

Love her inspite of it. One day, she's going to 'get it'.

Ok Froz ~ want me to tell you what frustrates me about you?

LOL.

You are exactly the way I used to be. You argue the same way I did too. I bet you that it will get you just as much as it got me, a whole bunch of nuthin.

So, to be specific, I'll give you one of many examples I could pull from this thread:




Now.

You do this repeatedly.

You state your feelings about something. When we point out that maybe there is a flaw in your basic thinking, some emotional or spiritual defect...you immediately tell us that your feeling is just a temporary one time thing.

Your contradictions are all over this thread.

"I feel this way" "Ok Froz, good, lets talk about why this is good or bad and what you might be able to do about it" "Well I don't feel that way, this was just a fluke, a random incident".

Froz, dear. You are terrified that someone might see you for who you are.

Believe it or not, lovable people have warts and fears and stuff that isn't pretty.

I'm sorry, BrambleRose, but this time you couldn't be more wrong.

I am not terrified at all that someone might see me for who I am. For someone who is "terrified", I sure do put it all out there.

I do so because it is important to me that I be real. I do it also because unless I am real, I wouldn't receive the opportunities to grow that I am receiving. It is an opportunity.

I know I said I was jealous. I was. It was a momentary, fleeting feeling based on a totally different subject. I didn't voice the reason, not because I was trying to hold anything back about myself, but because I didn't want to put undue pressure on someone else. I actually wouldn't mind telling you at all...heck, you already know just about everything else about me! I just didn't think it would be fair to that person, that's all.

Without knowing that, I can easily see how what I said seems contradictory. It also caused some confusion in that it made it look like I wasn't grateful for your support. It wasn't about that at all. I'm sorry it looked that way.

I'll just leave it at that. It's my issue and has nothing really to do with Patriot, or with the other party. It's all mine.

Froz, have you considered the fact that maybe you're...

"ok as is?"

Froz ~ you don't really put it out there. Yes, you are gutsy to talk about this stuff in public. But your walls are high.

I'm not arguing with you about whether or not you are jealous.

I'm saying that you say one thing, when its addressed, you tell us, that no, its something else, and we don't understand.

This is your pattern.

This isn't just your pattern, its your wall. I know because I used to do it too. I played these verbal and emotional symantics with my Alanon sponsor for hours upon hours for months.

I thought I just wasn't understood.

Just like every WS on the planet, I had my own version of the fog that led me to believe I was special and my situation was different and unique and everyone else just didn't get me.

BR,

Sure, I put it all out there. You can (and have) ask me anything, and I will answer you honestly.

I don't see a pattern with this, with the exception of this incident.

I really am being completely open with you. I've pretty much let down my walls. I have zero problem sharing how I feel. Sure, feelings change. Perhaps that is where you are seeing a discrepancy.

I tried to explain this incident the best I could without causing potential harm to another person. It's probably confusing, and I hope you'll forgive me for being so darn cryptic with that incident. Sharing it with you would probably be beneficial for me, but I really don't want to do that and cause harm to someone who really is not to blame at all.

But, ask me anything else and I'll be happy to share honestly about it. I've got no walls up with you. It would serve me no purpose. I don't feel the need to protect myself from you. I don't perceive you as a threat at all.

I wish I could explain it better.

Today was a pretty rough day. I finally worked up the nerve to call my "Uncle", I guess that's what he is. I got voice mail and was too chicken to leave a message. It seemed rather impersonal to do so when I've never even met him or spoken with him. I really am so very worried about my mother and her family.

I also had a weird exchange with a friend last night, that resulted in getting my feelings hurt, and that's contributing to my feelings today.

I took it out on Patriot a bit this morning.

Also got an e-mail from OW, as promised by her about her baby. She sent a picture and everything. This is all pretty rough to deal with.

Spent a good bit of time this evening in the closet, as Pep suggested...can't seem to stop crying.

It's been a rough day. I wasn't kidding when I said I am really just beat down.

So many failings and flaws, and I'm trying my butt off and feel like I'm getting nowhere. Any small progress seems to be met with another issue. It's kind of overwhelming.

I'm trying like ******, but gosh...could one person have more issues? Where to begin?

Not sending out invites to a pity party. Not feeling so much pity, in particular. Just rock bottom. Everywhere I look, I seem to have so many character flaws.

I won't give up, though. I'll keep working.

Just don't have much to offer today.

I really do wish I could explain the other situation to you.

I don't even know what else to say.

Maybe tomorrow will be better.

Well, tqt...no. Is there something you see here that I am actually doing right? Any effort on my part that I point out is quickly met with "Froz, you are lying".

froz ~

I don't think you are lying. I think that you are resisting acknowledgement of the truth on many levels because it is painful and overwhelming.

I think that our own thoughts, our own wounded selves, become very very adept at protecting ourselves from truth, because at some point in our lives, usually in childhood, the truth was too painful, too big, too scary to cope with. The coping mechanisms we learn in childhood are quite destructive in our adult lives.

This is what I was pointing out above. Everytime someone starts to get close to a 'truth' you quickly dance away and shut down.

Now, no more contact with OW ok? You know there is no OC. There is NO reason for you to see her, talk to her, communicate with her in anyway.

No contact means: NO CONTACT for Patriot, AND YOU.

Contact with OW puts YOU back at day 1 too.


This is because you are still attempting to force/change your world around you to your own sense of what reality should be. You are quite powerful in your own mind. You are still under the belief that you can control this.

(Btw, I don't recall Pep suggesting that you hide in the closet dear. She was simply describing her own rock bottom when she finally admitted that just maybe, she couldn't fix it all and that maybe God had to take over - but I'll let her speak for herself.)

You can't. Your belief that you can causes you to keep smacking into reality and you keep coming away bruised, sore and hurt.

You are NOT flawed and failed.

STOP with the self flagellation!! This is unloving and this is very very harmful to you.

Go back to that mirror and say I love you Froz - if it works for Dorry it can work for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, enough is enough.

I am not under the belief that I can control this, any more than I am under the belief that I can control what you think or assume about me.



I have not "danced away". I carefully listen to each point you make. Some I agree with and some I do not. The fact that may I disagree with some of your points does not mean that I am in denial.

I have explored each and every point you have made. I have responded to each and every thing you have posted. I am not dancing away, nor am I shutting down. I have been here the entire time...listening, agreeing with some points, and exploring and trying to apply them. That is hardly the behavior of someone who is "dancing away".


You may very well not think that I am lying. However, that is NOT what you said.

You said:



and...





No need for Pep to defend herself. I heard what she said. I took it upon myself to view it as a suggestion and try it. I take responsibility for that. I'm perfectly aware that she didn't tell me to do that.



Really??? The focus of this entire thread has been about what I'm doing wrong and what my character flaws are. I'm willing to work on them or I wouldn't be here, but let's not deny the fact that I have some flaws and some failings.

that's correct ... I was going to say as much, but BR said it for me. Thanks.

Froz ~

That you believe lies (untruths) about yourself does not mean that you are a liar (ie telling deliberate, knowing, falsehoods).

Are you deliberately misrepresenting yourself? No.

But you can't fix what you can't or won't acknowledge.

I absolutely will not assist you in tearing yourself down as "flawed" and "failed".

Yes, we all flaws and warts and ugly bits. But that doesn't = unlovable, undeserving and unworthy, which is what you want to make it mean.

Froz ~

The only "flaw" that I see, is your unwillingness to love yourself.

Once you learn that, the rest will follow.

Here is something to focus on.

How about ways I can make my wife feel important to me. Anyone have any ideas?

I have a tendency to lead her to believe that I am more important to me than she is. Maybe I am attacking things wrong. But there is one fact. I WANT to be the source of her greatest happiness. I currently am not. What can I do?

I realize that she may have issues with other things that I deal with, like abandonment from biological mother, physically abusive ex-husband, childmolesting ex-husband and other things.

She has gotten 'The Primal Wound' and I think she aims to read it. Maybe it will help.

That said, she currently has an Ex-cheating still-husband. I am here and I want to support her in any way I can. Give me ideas how.

And, so that it has been said. Per my discussion with SH, guess what he told me. I am responsible for my actions. A simple statement that I am sure someone will say 'No Sh*t', but there is more to it than that. Affair-proofing our marriage is about awareness, acceptance and action, right?

I am aware that my top five needs are 'weaknesses' and if not guarded correctly can lead me down the path of an A again. I am AWARE that I have these needs and I am AWARE that, if not guarded by me, they can be weaknesses. (if you paid attention just then, there is a little bit of "why" in there.)

Now, I ACCEPT that it is my responsibility to only allow access to these five needs to my wife and that if I see one of those needs getting met by someone else, even in the smallest way, then that contact must halt immediately and I am required to tell my wife. I ACCEPT that I am a human being driven by selfish desires, wants and needs. I have already accepted that I am solely responsible for make the decision to have an A. That happened a while back.

So guard my needs(which protects my marriage and makes it affair-proof) and never use the lack of my needs getting filled as reason to hurt her again. It is my responsibility(because I have made it mine by choosing to love her and marry her) to try to fill her needs. Being the giver. And it is my responsibility to try filling her needs regardless of her filling mine(limiting the taker).

Now, actions. What are they. It was mentioned that I might have some High-Functioning ADD. How do you find out? What are the steps to rule that out or in? What are ways I can show my wife I think she is important? I went back to college. She is supportive but it takes away time from her and I, so she doesn't like it. It was a selfish desire for me to get the college thing going again. Does that make it an LB? I am not doing it to get away from froz. I am doing it because I want a masters degree. But she doesn't care, really if I have that degree, although she has stated she is very proud of me. How can I show her she is important?

She is a great woman and she is trying very hard. I recognize that.

I used to wonder why there weren't more couples posting here. Husbands and wives hashing it out online here. I really don't wonder now. It is difficult. It is hard to see folk "gang up" on your spouse.( I think everyone means well and that I have a perception of things because I am close to the situation and I want to protect her) It is also hard to blast your feelings out here, when you might run the risk of your spouse hearing it for the first time online in front of all you guys.... when it would be way more appropriate said in the privacy of home.

Anyway, just thoughts. One good thing I could think of was the method Froz and I devised to deal with elephants was employed by me last night. Something came up. After it came up it felt uncomfortable, and so I asked "is such and such an elephant and we need to talk about it?" I hope she saw that. Not because I want the single incedent praise, but because I am trying to evoke new patterns of behavior on my part so her perception of me changes. Because I want to make her happy and safe.

Froz. If you read this(which you will) I love you very much. No matter what happens, I am going to honor you by fulfilling my commitments to you, loving and accepting you, and protecting you from further harm. I hope you are able to trust me a little more each day. I pray that God will take some of you pain away each day until it is as gone as it can be and you can be happy.

Don't let the enemy split us apart. Marriage is of God, and therefore, the enemy will do anything in his power to break us up.

The enemy's power is suggestion. Don't listen to him.

Listen to God. He loves you and wants you to be happy.

Have a good day.

This one I want you to pay attention to, wife.

Please love yourself. Love yourself and know in your mind you are a great person. If someone rejects you, it is their loss, because no matter what they do, you are still a great person.

Please love yourself.

Good morning Froz


If you want your husband to express his feelings openly, try not to characterize his feelings as "complaining" or as "unfair". Feelings by definition cannot be characterized as unfair. Feelings just ~are~ .... they are internal to him and cannot be measured for fairness to others.

Perhaps 'complain' was the wrong choice of words.

Pretty soon you'll have me well-schooled in the English language. That was helpful.

Your choice of words is not the issue ... you said what you meant to say.

Direct hit! You tryin' to sink my battleship? If so, you win. I don't need you to tear me to shreds. As you so kindly put it, I do a fine job of that myself.

Patriot ~


Weaknesses?

yes. Weaknesses.

As long as I am not hungry, I will be choosy were I eat.

When I am starving, I might eat anything off of any sort of surface.

Ask a homeless person if eating out of the trash is repulsive. I bet some might say it isn't. Not like you and I would say it was.


Just an example, and not to be seen as MY reason why.

Would you rather a different word?

No, don't start with semantics!!

I don't think your needs are weaknesses.

There is nothing wrong with needs, I don't think you should assign any concept of something being bad or wrong or weak about having needs.

What you choose to do when you don't have them filled...well thats something you have to address. I suspect Gimble can help you better than I with that aspect.

Your sense of entitlement, your selfishness in making the choice to have an affair...THOSE are weaknesses.

But needs? No way. Give yourself permission to have needs. Are your needs healthy? That could be a question you need to address also.

Sheesh!

This thread moves so fast it's overwhelming! And it's not even about ME!!

Froz you said -

CSue,

SH actually did broach the subject with me. We didn't discuss it thoroughly.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I'm happy to say when he finally was able to accomplish understanding my feelings regarding his affair - it was a huge turning-point for me, and helped me find real peace.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That sounds like it would be beneficial, but I don't expect it anymore. If it happens...great. I'll be pleasantly surprised. If it doesn't, I'll just have to accept it.

By the way, I don't think I've ever told you that I appreciate your responses and the manner in which you share your experiences with me.

Sometimes I don't respond to something you've said to me, because it is usually information and food for thought, as opposed to questions. I just wanted to tell you that I listen to you, what you say is helpful, and I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.



Froz, I appreciate being thanked for all the obvious reasons; but in addition - it helps me to know if what I'm posting is helping. Sometimes I think we project ourselves onto other's situations and we're way off base! Other times we're right on target. You're the only one who knows what's on or off target.

I'll come back later when I have more time to post because I have some additional thoughts...but sometimes it's all I can do to read this thread just to keep up!! Hang in there...

Well I can't resist responding to Patriot -

ENs are not weaknesses - the affair exposed your weakness to having affairs. It's probably something SH talked to you about during the coaching session. You, my husband, and other WSs have a weakness for affairs.

SH's goal is to coach you to learn how to "affair-proof" your marriage and help you address your weakness so you don't go down that path in the future.

Everyone has weaknesses, and some of those weaknesses become addictions like, drugs, alcohol, affairs etc.

ENs are vitally important. We all have them; it's just that when we're uneducated about them that they can cause problems. Because if we don't address them, they become very powerful.

You were asking earlier what you can do to help Froz feel loved. You become an expert and meeting her top ENs, exactly the way SHE wants them met.

It's that simple, however it isn't easy. Because her job is to communicate to your what her ENs are, HOW she wants you to meet them; and give you feedback on how you're doing.

Also as you go through recovery top ENs shift in importance as they are getting met. So it's her job to communicate to you as her top ENs shift in importance.

She'll learn to do the same for you. Have you both finished SH's homework assignment regarding the EN questionnaire? If I recall correctly each of you were to write down specifically how you like your top ENs to be met.

This is a great exercise that helps you get in touch with a deeper level of self awareness - and takes some courage to be vulnerable enough to share them with each other.

You're at a fragile state of recovery - both of you; be gentle with yourselves and each other. Don't be afraid to put marriage building discussions aside at times and just have fun!

Hi, Patriot.

Quote:
=====================================
How about ways I can make my wife feel important to me. Anyone have any ideas?
=====================================

By choosing to make it so. You choose, your emotions follow. Do it often enough, and you will find that you don't really have to choose anymore.

Also, needs are not weaknesses unless you choose to let them be. I choose to not do certain things, regardless of the state of my needs. It makes life so much easier when *all* my needs are met, but that is asking an awful lot out of life and my wife. I will settle for some of them met, and keep the unmet ones in check.

I recommend that you and Frozen pack the kids off for the weekend. Close all the blinds/drapes whatever, and get naked. I bet that you can't spend an entire day naked together. Give it a try. I dare both of you. You might be surprised what you learn, and it will help both of you understand something about your relationship.

All the best,
Gimble

HA! I read your "groping" thread first. I had a sneaking suspicion this was the thread where it originated!

You may find it hard to believe, but we do the naked thing pretty often. Granted, it is challenging with teenagers around (and NOWHERE to ship them off to), but we lock our bedroom suite and hang out in the buff quite often.

I agree with all your points on the other thread about sex, such as: lots of women like gropes .

I'll take my groping any way I can get it...while taking pot roast out of the oven, juvenile AND sophmoric. But I do have a rule...one good grope deserves another.

Hi, Frozen.

Quote:
====================================
You may find it hard to believe, but we do the naked thing pretty often.
====================================

I believe you. It's hard to stay mad when you're both naked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On a serious note, I really admire you and Patriot working at your marriage so hard, both publicly and privately. It took me and my wife a long time to really work at our marriage once the early challenges had settled down. We have a great relationship, and it was worth every bit of work that went into it to get it where it is today.

You and Patriot have an early start, and even though you are facing similar challenges, you are choosing to work through it now. I think that ultimately, say ten years from now, you will both look back with pride at what you have done, and see - lives NOT wasted.

God bless,
Gimble

Thanks Gimble,

Your encouraging words give us hope. It's nice to hear that there can be such a wonderful reward for hard work.


We appreciate you and your interest in our marriage. We are always grateful for your level-headed feedback. You continue to be such a steadfast blessing to us.

All our best to your and your wife,

Patriot and Frozen

Way off the Recovery topic...

I spent the ENTIRE day with my wonderful DS 15.5. That .5 is quite important, because that means that, as of today, he became eligible to obtain his driver's permit.

So we went to the testing facility. This kid of mine (mommy bragging moment) is so unbelievably intelligent. I was amazed when he walked back out to the waiting room a mere 5 minutes after walking in to take his test. Yes, it took him less than five minutes! Of course, he passed. This kid is really a genius (he really, really is...not just saying that because I'm his mom - I promise!). I'm so proud of him.

On to the tag agency, where he officially obtained his permit. We were all the way on the other side of town because it was the only testing facility open on Monday. It happened to be near Patriot's work, so we stopped by there so he could show him his permit. We also stopped by my family's business so he could show my brother and my dad.

He literally drove all over town today and he did great! We also talked quite a bit, which is such a rare thing for this kid. It's so difficult sometimes to find ways to spend time with a 15 year-old boy. With DD17 it's a snap, because there are tons of girlie things we can do together. It's not so easy with a boy his age. He's into games, but his intelligence far surpassed mine some time ago and I am no longer able to play the kinds of games he now plays.

He was such a great driver! He really did do an excellent job and it only took me a couple of minutes to really relax with him in the driver's seat.

The very best part was when we arrived home and he pulled into the garage. When we got out of the car, he said to me "So on a scale of 1-10, what would you give me?".

My heart actually leaped!!!! This kid cares what I think! He values my opinion! He wants me to be proud of him! I really had forgotten that. Teenagers do such an effective job sometimes of convincing you that your opinion doesn't really matter (because they are soooooo independent, and don't really need you except for money or food).

I gave him a 9, and I truly meant it. The one point deduction was based solely on lack of experience.

I have the greatest children!

Wow, Recovery is hard!

I failed my husband miserably yesterday.

I received a phone call from Patriot's sister yesterday, letting me know that his Grandfather had passed away.

I had absolutely no idea what to do. I've never been in that position before. I tried to guess what I would want, but then he isn't me and the truth was I didn't know what I would want, anyway.

So, I took it to NCWalker. Thank God for NCWalker. He saved my sanity twice yesterday.

He advised me to immediately go to Patriot's place of work and tell him in person and to be a rock for Patriot, even if he responded with anger. So I did.

He didn't respond with anger, just shock. Patriot left work and tended to family matters all day. I accompanied him on some of these errands, but I had work appointments scheduled for the afternoon. He told me to keep my appointments, but I wish I would not have listened to him. I really regret that.

He, along with some family members had to inform his Grandmother of his Grandfather's passing and even though Patriot had other family members present, I should have been there beside him. I know that must have been difficult and I would have wanted him there with me.

The day was extremely long and I was busy at work. It was an emotionally draining day for me, too, though I know it was much more so for him. I worried about him all day long.
After the time he spent with his Grandmother and some of his other family members, he then had to come change a flat tire for me at work...of all the luck.

I was dying for the day to be over and for both of us to be able to come home and unplug. Instead, I arrived home, changed clothes and Patriot informed me we were leaving to go back to visit his Grandmother. I thought the day was over and I really wasn't feeling too strong at this point. Instead of mustering the strength he needed, I was grouchy that he hadn't informed me of this prior to arriving home. I told him I was willing to go and changed back into appropriate clothes and prepared to leave, but I was grouchy and distant. I felt like I didn't have anything left to give him.

We began discussing it in the car and it was just making things worse, even turning into a bit of an argument as we arrived at his Grandmother's. Just before I got out of the car, I received a phone call from NCWalker...talk about perfect timing.

He "screwed my head on straight", as he put it. What he really did was lend me just the amount of strength I needed to go in and be supportive for Patriot and deal with the situation.

I feel horrible that I wasted an opportunity to be strong for him. I can't even honestly say that, if put in the same situation again, I would be able to respond differently.

Recovery is hard all by itself without difficult life situations to deal with.

I am struggling with a strong sense of entitlement and have been very distant with him lately. For as strong as everyone seems to think I am (including myself on occassion), I just don't feel like I have the strength to put much more into this. This selfish streak feels uncomfortable and I hate it. Distancing myself from him does feel comfortable and I hate that, too.

I am very disappointed in myself that I was unable to set that down yesterday. I did it for most of the day, but I stumbled grandly at the end.

I know I can't make up for yesterday, but what can I do for the next few days to be supportive for him, even when I feel like I got nothin'?