Hey Frozen,

I can't tell you how trilled I was to read your first post. I'm so happy for you and I will continue to lift you and Patriot up in prayer. Keep hanging in there, just keep giving your M time to heal...hey remember I'm in the same boat.

Your H loves you very much, nothing else makes sense as to why he is doing all that he can to save his M. Even if he didn't love you then during the A, he does now...he probably loves you more then he ever thought possible. I think I've said this to you before that "Attitude determines Altitude".

I haven't been on MB often lately. Monday I will be going in to be induced so God willing our baby girl will be here on Monday and it won't be a long drawn out labor and delivery.

As for me and hubby, we are doing great. He is very excited about renewing our vows when he comes home. Every chance he gets he shows me that he is grateful to not have lost me and he isn't going to mess our M up for nothing in the world.

He is getting very nervous about the arrival of his 1st child. My 14yr Daughter is just plain excited lol. Can you believe that I will have 3 girls !!!(actually had 4 girls, 2yr old's identical twin died shortly after birth) I wonder statisically what the odds are of that happening. Hopefully the next one will be a boy.

Whitedove,

Best of luck with your induction. I hope your delivery goes smoothly. I will be thinking of you Monday. I am sure you will all fall head over heels for your new baby girl.

Also, congratulations on your vow renewal!

Froz

recovery is difficult stuff. "thank you captain obvious" jokes aside, the fact is recovery feels, for me, like we discover something and then we have trouble remembering we discovered it.

Example. We learned recently about saying things that mean the same in different ways(different 'languages'). Well, just last night we had a discussion about a number of things and to me it felt like the discussion, though it kept soliciting 'you don't love me as much as I love you' from her, sure seemed like just a language barrier to me.

It is obvious to me that she and I still have a ways to go on the communication piece because I can't tell you how many times she asks me a question and I don't answer it to her standard. No, I'm not lying or hiding something. I answer the question the way I know how, and she doesn't think what I gave was an answer. Last nights deal was I did not give the 'why' to a certain question. I gave justification. Given the circumstance, it sure seemed the same to me.

15 hours. I am all for it. More than 15 would be just fine. But, I have to admit it is challenging to partake of fifteen conflict filled hours. It is also hard to find 15 hours were even she wants to deal with me for the whole time. And work schedules. And other commitments in life. But, for ever remark I can make about life, school, work or whatever else might be 'getting in the way' for me, a thousand people can say "where there's a will, there's a way" or my personal favorite "then you just make time" like you just run to the corner store and pick up some fresh time.

recovery is challenging. I wish I could talk about more substance, but I don't have time....being at work and all.

Thinking of you, Whitedove. I hope everything went smoothly during your delivery. I hope today was a beautiful day for you and your family.

Congratulations,

Froz

I proposed a more structured approach to recovery. A plan. I know this would be received well since froz is a plan kinda girl.

It was not received very well this evening because she is extremely upset with me.

Calling Dr. Harley is in order. I will begin figuring out how to make that happen. Can anyone tell me how it works? If I recall, it was cal to make an appointment time and then call back then, yes?

We have not been to MC in weeks. That needs to start back up.

I am mostly saddened in that a number of moments of positive recovery are blackened by horrible verbal exchanges. It has become "I am tired of being your mother" and honestly, I don't blame her. I am tired of being the child, too.

She is extremely fiery when she is angry and it is almost unbearable. I imagined this evening that her anger most make her want to kill me. And that can not be fun for her at all. She is afraid and hurt. Sometimes to the point, it seems like we have not made one step of progress. I know that is horrible for her.

I am so angry at myself for being a conflict avoider and for lying about things after dday. Also, and more damaging, I am angry at myself for not comeing completely clean.

The shock of her anger towards me makes me doubt anything I believe or know. She explodes and I run. I get flustered very easily and I don't know which way is up in a very short time. Now, she has every right to have emotion and show it. I am just not sure what the best way to stop running is. I have to do something, though, because everyday is another day I am losing her, and that is not recovery.

I thought we might have found a real answer in the differing languages idea. Maybe what we have found is yet another reason for her to be afraid of me. That isn't good either. She took a poat of mine today and 'translated' it. That didn't go well. Basically she too the post and turned it into the most selfish thing I have ever read. I really didn't mean to say it that way.

When I discuss my feelings, it is seen as selfish. I am 99% sure that me going to college is not fine with her and that I am being selfish. I have such a strong drive for the aquisition of knowledge. I really have a strong desire to repair my relationship here, but it is met with such emotion and anger that I don't know what to do.

I can't blame her for being angry. I would be angry too if she went out and did what I did. I would be hurt too.

I have to be stronger. I told her this tonight... and interestingly she said why did she have to be the strong one. What a change... she used to say she was so weak. Maybe that was progress.

She is so beautiful, but wow does she get mad. She feels everything so hard.

I am not giving up on the structured recovery idea. I think it is a winning deal. Something to add a measure of control and routine.

The situation at work about lunch and driving 2 females from the unit was just all wrong. I assessed it so incorrectly.

I am going to redo the EN question thing again. I need to, as I have read HNHN and discovered possibilities of new more important needs. This will be done in 2 days and given to froz. So wednesday suspense on that. Maybe nothing will change. I just want to explore it again on my timeline.

She got so angry at me tonight... that really was crazy and I am completely confused on where it went wrong. I took her to the college because I wanted her to be a part of my life there. I wanted her to see it and get a feel for what I would be around up there. The conversation was going well it seemed. We got in the car and I said something, I guess.... because I don't know what happened. Oh.. wait. I do. We were going to go to the commissary. At first I was not enthusiastic. She asked why. I said she over analyzed everything.

The rest is history.

Thats enough for the journal tonight.

Let's try again tomorrow.

Right now, hun, you and Patriot are both going through some very painful marital and personal growth.

What is clear to me right now, is that Patriot has issues with conflict avoidance and honesty, and we also know that he is capable of having an affair rather than dealing with his marriage.

However. These are just interesting facts. These are not reasons to jump to conclusions or take actions.

In Al-Anon, we talk about the three A's: Awareness, Acceptance, and Action.

Awareness is what I am trying to help you with right now. Acceptance will come later - and Action is LAST for a reason. Actions that we take based on awareness that lacks acceptance will always be misguided.

The three A's are in that order for a reason!

So, try to keep that in mind: Awareness.

As Dr. Phil says, we can't fix what we don't acknowledge.

So just take it easy - we are just identifying "stuff", and trying to put together a bit of a puzzle of what Froz is.


To quote shamelessly from the Big Book of AA:


Now, I know that you and Patriot aren't struggling with alcoholism (although, since your parents were CoA, I think that the disease has influenced you). But the above quote applies to many more than just alcoholics.

I personally think that alcoholics just happen to deal with the pain of living in the way described above by drinking. The rest of us suffer through the pain of a self-will inflicted life stone cold sober. And in some ways, that makes us even more sick, because we weren't numbed to the pain!


You are right, there are no coicidences. The problem here is that you jumped to a very incorrect conclusion.

Alot of people all led you to believe that you were unlovable. That alot of people wanted you to believe this lie was not a coicidence.

This does not mean you ARE unlovable. This does NOT MAKE IT TRUE!

It means you were surrounded by a lot of very selfish sick broken and hurting people.


You told me your mother loved her bio children more than you.

You told me NOTHING about your dad.

Most young girls do not get pregnant at 17 unless they are desperately seeking male love and approval. And/or thinking that a baby will give her the unconditional love she seeks.


By telling herself that you are not her problem. By removing the source of her guilt from her life so she can go back to ignoring and denying the little girl she believes she abandoned and who later showed up to prove it.


Well, here is where acceptance has to take place. You can't get what you want. Your bio mom is just who she is, not who you want her to be. Acceptance doesn't mean you agree or have to like it, it just means that you acknowledge the reality in front of you.


Ok, here we go again. You did not make "this" (if you mean the affair) happen.

Patriot did that all by himself and it is a result of Patriot's problems and his lack of handling conflict in a mature manner.

You did not make him have an affair.

Same goes for your marriage. It took both of you.

Froz ~ I truely get that you have very exacting standards for yourself when it comes to integrity, responsiblity, love, etc. I used to do the same thing to myself also. I didn't understand what was so wrong with my holding other people to the same standards as I held myself.

What was wrong was that I was horribly cruel to ME. I had no compassion, no love, no self respect. I said horrible things to myself in the privacy of my own mind. My anger at myself for failing to meet my very rigid, very high expectations of myself was incredibly intense. Depression is caused by inwardly turned anger. No wonder I nearly killed myself.

And as I grew frustrated and angry with the people around me who failed to love me by meeting my rigid expectations, I began treating them with the same hatred that I exacted upon myself.

What I found was, in order for me to have compassion for others...and still maintain my boundaries, was that I had to learn how to allow myself to be a human being, how to love myself and have compassion for myself when I made a mistake.

My cruelty to myself, in exacting such rigid standards, was also cruel and unloving to the very people around me that I had promised to love.

I had to learn to let myself be a human being, and to allow myself to make mistakes, and to have compassion and love for myself, before I was able to lower those exacting, rigid standards for everyone else too.

BR,

Points taken. At least, as much as I am able to grasp at the moment. I will print this for future reference. Awareness, for me, usually comes in spurts.




My father is a very, very generous person. There were a lot of times, growing up, that I did feel quite understood by him. However, he was ill-equipped to protect me from my mother, as he could hardly protect himself from her.

There were times, I think, when he recognized something she did as emotional abuse. Other times, she could persuade him to go along with whatever he was doing and even convince him that it was the right thing to do.

I grew to know that my father was not compassionless, as I believed my mother to be, but he also couldn't save me.

Oh Dear.

This explains alot to me. My situation was reversed. My father was the abusive one and my mother was the one I saw as weak and unable to save us. You could have been describing my mother with your description.

I didn't realize, until much further along in my recovery process, that I was angry, incredibly angry, with my mom.

She was the adult. I was the child. It was her job to protect me and she did not. In fact, she went along with my father's abuse to us in order to avoid his anger being directed at her. I came to understand, that it was not that she could not protect us children, it was that she chose not to protect us, and in fact used us to protect herself. My mother was very good at making all of us believe that she was the good one, a martyr and a victim.

What I later came to understand is that she was and still is, an incredibly skilled manipulator and controller - she just used different tools than my dad.

If you had asked back then, I would have said without a doubt my mother loved me but my dad didn't.

The reality was, I was starved for love, because I did not have it from either parent.

It makes perfect sense to me that a little girl, who did not feel safe and protected by her dad (the MOST important thing a man can do for his daughters) went out to seek that from other men. Pregnancy at 17 is no surprise to me in this scenario. And not that much different than your bio-mom's pattern either is it?

It seems to me, that you sought out men that failed to protect you. Who may have been very similar to your dad. (Selfish, unavailable, unwilling to protect) Who used you for their own selfish ends. Again, going to the hardware store for bread and milk, you sought out men who would not protect you, and expected and demanded that they do so.

And I have another question for you - how much are you like your mother, in how you are treating Patriot?

I suspect that you have a very deep fear of being harmed by men that is more than Patriot's affair (which we already knew). You need, even more than most, to be 110% secure and safe.

Exacting rigid standards based on your fears and explosive anger will not get you the protection you need and deserve. Believe it or not, if you can work through some of your anger, especially your anger at others in your life, I would be willing to bet, you'll find it easier to work on making Patriot feel loved. I know, your anger and pride are screaming: what h311, he gets to have an affair and now he gets to feel good by me!!! that's your taker and you gotta ignore it right now! This recovery stuff is not intuitive. And I think Patriot is willing to love you and protect you ~ but you need to get out of the way and give him a chance.

That's really your answer right now. Stop focusing on how Patriot is making you feel, and focus on how Patriot feels. Drop the sense of entitlement (he hurt me, now I deserve the right to abuse him with my righteous anger), and focus on how YOU are making HIM feel.

If you want him to love you, you need to be lovable. Yep, there's that fear cropping up, that you aren't lovable. So, if that is the case, take a good hard look at you, and weed out those unlovable bits that are there, so there is room for alot of loveable stuff to grow! You are no longer a helpless child. You are a grown woman who can choose to be lovable.

The better he feels about you, the more in love, the more safe he feels, the better job he is going to be able to do in protecting and loving you. This is truely the secret to getting the love you crave Froz.

You both have new patterns to learn. The exciting thing is that you can do it together if you just give it a bit of patience and gentleness with yourselves.

Patriot, call Steve, call him today ~ because you guys truely need professional help. Steve won't go digging into childhood and history of why either of you are the way you are. He'll start giving both of you practical stuff to do that will change the atmosphere in your home really really quickly. Yes, it is expensive. Divorce is even more expensive. And I suspect if you guys can't sort this out, thats where you are headed. From what I have read here, I don't see a marriage that can't be saved. It would be a pity if you both missed out on what can be a great marriage.

Froz ~ Save the love languages conversations for a future discussion, until you have had the time to sort out for yourself, the difference between your true love language, and what is really your unhealthy anger and fear demanding what Patriot or any other human being can not give.

And Froz ~ the secret to being lovable, is to love yourself.

What can you do for yourself today that says "I love you!"?

Patriot,

Call the 800 number listed in the counseling section that has a link on the home page.

If it's central standard time office hours someone will answer the phone and setup a coaching session for you. Glad you're considering this.

In your situation like mine where both people are willing to recover their marriage - Steve works wonders.

Hopefully he's not booked too far out. Have a spiral notebook and pencil handy to take notes.

Nothing. I am not like her at all. I am really getting tired of this whole "angry" bit. I'm not angry. I know the difference between anger, frustration, and hurt. I can be emotional, sure. If he didn't want an emotional woman, perhaps he should have chosen someone more like my mother.

He paints me out to be some psycho-wife, who is mad, mad, mad. I'm not mad. I'm frustrated and confused. He makes it sound as though I am attacking him, while he is cowering in the corner. That is not the case. He neglected to give the entire picture of last night's events. I'm not going to sit here and "tattle", because it's pointless.

This is all insane. It really is. It's insane and I'm really tired of living it.

Give, give, give...that's the answer? Fine...I'll give some more. I wonder how much more I can give until I have nothing left. This has already taken so much from me, and everyone who knows me.

Your assessment about my relationship with my father makes sense. I never did feel as though he chose not to protect me, though. I always knew he couldn't. No one could win against my mother, including him...maybe especially him. I am not angry with him for it. I understand.

Walk away and stop letting men treat me badly.

walk away?

ugh... Steve Harley can fix this? I'm calling the guy because I am failing so miserably that even I hate me.

....

Patriot,

I can't begin to describe to you the enormous relief when my husband and I handed our recovery over to Steve.

Best decision you'll ever make....the coaching is not painless, but far easier than trying to navigate the emotional minefield on your own.

We have been in recovery 3 1/2 years and we're doing sooo well. It's what I want for everyone on this forum. We practice today the skills we learned from SH's coaching. We arrived at a place where we can safely coach each other. We have the tools and we use them.

He'll also tell each of you when some personal recovery is needed.

In my case personal recovery took precedence at times. He taught me how to deal with anxiety that I never had experienced prior to d-day. Believe me, I use those skills to this day too.

It's a wonderful gift to give yourself and Froz - you will benefit individually and as a couple.

Dear Froz ~ You can walk away from Patriot, but unfortunately, you can't walk away from yourself. I know this sounds nuts, but you are the source of your pain.

Running from Patriot will not make you happy.


Ok, fine. You aren't mad.

But do you think that perhaps, from Patriot's point of view, that he experiences your reactions as angry?

Remember what I said about perception being reality?

I don't get the impression that Patriot is posting here about you with the intention of harming your good name or trying to get us on "his" side. I do get the impression that he is very frustrated and confused himself, because he is experiencing anger and stone walls from you, no matter how much he tries to placate you.

Do I think he is perfect? Do I think he is not making mistakes? Not at all. I think he misses the mark alot and could use Steve Harley's help in learning how to love you.

But...

He just truely is as frustrated as you are. One thing is clear though Froz, this man loves you. The reasons you can not feel it has more to do with the hurt, broken parts of you that desperately needs healing, than it does with his failures.


I can relate to this feeling. I remember thinking that I could not give even one more little bit without completely utterly emptying myself. The problem I discovered, was with me. I gave to other people before I gave to myself. And I resented everyone else for not noticing and giving back to me in the same way.

When I saw other people taking care of themselves, I labeled it selfish and unloving.

I became very bitter, very resentful, and with every little "give" I became harder, colder and more angry.

My Taker was in charge of the giving.

Even though I was giving, I was giving with the expectation that I would get back everything in an exact fashion. I was "owed". Anything given to me that did not meet my exacting standards was angrily rejected as not good enough, and therefore, disregarded as not loving.

I had to get the Taker under control, learn to love myself, and learn to give without expectations.

Patriot ~ you both can not navigate this alone.

It's ok to ask for help. You truely need a professional here.

Yes, he does. He perceives any emotion other than utter bliss as angry. It's all he knows for himself, so why wouldn't he think that it was that way for everyone else? I have told him that I have more than just two emotions, but he doesn't seem to hear it.




I didn't perceive that he was trying to ruin my good name. It bothers me more that he really does see things that way. I don't particularly see why he is frustrated and confused - unless he is confused about himself. I am no mystery. If he wants to know something about me, all he needs to do is ask.

I also don't see where he is trying to placate me. If he is doing that now, it's only after I am upset. I really don't like that that is the only time he makes an effort. I really would like to not be greased only when I squeak.

It would be nice if my needs were even a factor here, yet the only thing that seems to be focused on is what he needs.

So, if that is the way it needs to be...so be it. I am in the process of negotiating with him exactly what it is I need to change about me to suit him.

negotiating?

Here is an important piece of information. Please pay attention.

I can not give you answer of how to specifically be because I do not want to do it without considering your needs.

I want to fill your needs to. I am dying to no longer make you unhappy. Don't you see that? I am trying to make you happy.

I can not tell you how to fill my needs without also addressing your needs. It is obviously not healthy to just tell you to do something without considering if you are fine with it.

You needs are the biggest factor here. If I didn't care about your needs, I wouldn't be here trying to figure out what to do. I also would not continue trying to discuss this situation at all.

Do you see that?

I don't like having these type of discussions here, but since seem to be addressing me specifically, I don't want to ignore you, either.



I see these as two separate issues, in that we don't need the same things. Today I asked you about your needs. If, in another conversation, you would like to address my needs, then please ask away. But, as I said, today I was inquiring about yours. If you can't give me a specific answer, it will be impossible for me to guess them.




I'm very sorry, but no...I don't see that. Making me unhappy and making me happy are also two separate issues, I think. One would seem to fall in line with LB's and the other with EN's. I have been very honest about both, and told you which specific things make me happy and unhappy. Given that, it makes it pretty difficult to understand what you are doing.


There is no way to know if I am fine with it unless you tell me.

Ugh.

You guys aren't negotiating. You guys are power-struggling.

There is a EN and LB questionnaire on the site...have you guys filled it out?

Patriot, did you call the Harley's?

Froz ~


If he is confused, then there is a problem, and it isn't necessarily a problem with him.

Froz, I'll try this again. 5 years ago, I could have written or said the exact same thing.

The truth was, that my needs, emotions, and feelings were communicated as lovebusters. I used selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts.

There is no way my husband could have suceeded.

I labeled all of it as Honesty and Openess. If my husband couldn't figure it out, well, then that was his problem and he needed to change.

Let me tell you Froz, the problem was ME. And that was because I was so empty, and so desperate, and so needy that there was NO WAY another human being could fill me up.

In some ways, my husband's affair was the best thing that ever happened. He took himself out of my life long enough that I had no choice but to look at ME and find that I had to rely on me for happiness FIRST before I was even capable of having my emotional needs met by another person.

There is no human being on the planet that can fix your pain, ease your hurts, make you feel safe, my dear, except for YOU.


Your definition of an effort, or his?


This is patently not true.

The difficulty is that you have a Taker running away out of control, and you are choosing to continue allowing this to happen, regardless of the harm you might be doing to your marriage.

You want this marriage on your terms and your terms only, with you in charge.


For a woman who is not angry, your tone, and words, sure do communicate something entirely the opposite.

Froz ~ honestly, we were getting somewhere together, you and I. And then you shut down very hard. Your fear is running the show right now.

Choices based on fear, never seem to result in the outcome we desire. I'm standing here waving a red flag at you hun.