My wife and I are scheduled to attend a Retrouvaille weekend 9-9-05. I really don’t know what to expect. I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY FEEDBACK FROM ANYONE WHO HAS ATTENDED AND/ OR HAS ADVICE! She signed up willingly when I presented it to her. As in my previous posts, she’s been in an E/A, P/A for a couple of months now, although he’s since dumped her. Although she states that nothing sexual happened and they are just friends, she lied to me and went to visit him for 3 nights, staying in a hotel room alone with him the entire time. All the signs are there. From her sexy lingerie (turned inside out) in her unpacked suitcase, to her desperation letters and poems I’ve read from her to him (she doesn’t know I know about this). Text messages such as “I wish I know what I could have done to make you happy”, also, “Please know that I’ll be here for you if you change your mind”. My question is this: can we get anywhere in Retrouvaille if she refuses to admit the truth about her affair? No, there’s no proof that they had sex, because no one else was in their hotel room to witness it, which is probably usually the case. Come on, do I really need 5X8 color glossy’s capturing the act? I doubt that happens very often. She has without a doubt committed an E/A if nothing else. She is a great manipulator at making me look to be the bad guy. Everything wrong in our R is my fault. I agree to share the responsibility, but come on! I’m in sales and can’t believe the ability she has to fool people about the truth! I just keep finding her in lie after lie after lie that she’s told me for so long, none of which she’ll admit to even when caught red handed. Matters that would be of great concern to any husband, including trips to visit my former best friend, feelings for this OM and admittedly sleeping in the same bed, but only as “FRIENDS”, ect. Of course, this was only after I found the truth out as to where she was really going. She lied and said she was going somewhere entirely different. She went as far as to ask me if I had done or threatened this OM that would keep him from calling her. She just couldn’t understand why he would dump her. Well of course I didn’t do anything to cause him to do so. My premise has always been that if your just friends, how do you get dumped? She states she doesn’t know but that he might be gay and found another man. My answer to that is “SO WHAT, your just friends?” She gets real defensive when her story starts to seem so very implausible and refuses to discuss it anymore. She’s used this line in previous relationships and had people believing it!

Below is her poem that I found on a common poetry sight just a few days after OM dumped her:

Empty, that's me
Ever since I can't talk to you
Ever since I can't see you
Ever since I can't touch you
Empty,
The bowl of cereal you shared across the table
The space next to me in bed
My hand without yours in it
Empty, that's my head
No No No thoughts at all
No emotion
No concept of time
Empty,
The mailbox
The refrigerator
The call record on my phone
Empty,
My life without you.

I was hopeful at first it was in regards to me, but no such luck. She’s been openly devastated about this “FRIENDSHIP” that turned bad all of a sudden. I will tell you that after all her pleadings with him, the conversations have resumed between the two of them with her spending 3 hours on the phone the other night with him! This is after committing to Retrouvaille. He lives half way across the country so phone is all they have at the moment. I’ve been trying DB techniques for less than a week, and I can tell you THEY WORK! We’ve gone from hating and hardly talking to each other, to going out several times, even to a party last night at her girl friends’ house and having a pretty good time. She stayed at my house although nothing sexual happened except for some kissing. The only downer on the night was when I saw the photo in the bathroom of her two girl friends and her posing in front of a big bay in La Jolla, CA, with a picture frame that said San Diego. She of course told me she was going to Phoenix that weekend with her friends to visit their Aunt and Uncle. They actually all stayed with my ex-friend in San Diego. This was long before we separated. She seems anxious and willing to go to Retrouvaille. Is Retrouvaille going to help us??? IF SHE REFUSES TO ADMIT THE TRUTH CAN WE REALLY MAKE ANY PROGRESS? Or could it be that the program will help her “honest up?” I REALLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT? She’s somewhat admitted that she can see how this situation could create problems in our R, but for the most part, our problems are all my fault. And she still denies any sexual affair while she visited this guy and seems to think she really did nothing wrong and should be able to have, and visit male friends, who I don’t even know. I ask, where do you draw the line? I think going behind my back and sleeping with him in the same bed while visiting, along with all the other evidence equals GUILTY! PLEASE, PLEASE, I NEED SOME FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE WHO KNOW ABOUT THE RETROUVAILLE PROGRAM! If she lies her way through it, can it possibly be beneficial? I do believe she’s sincere about working on the “R”, but I believe her intent is to show what a cold hearted SOB I’ve been to her, which is ridicules! HELP PLEASE! WHAT AM I IN FOR AT RETROUVAILLE???

Retrouvaille is a great program. But you are not going to be able to take full advantage of it if your wife still has contact with OM.
I went to Retrouvaille three years ago ... I just found out that I was pregnant but I suspected that WH was having an affair ... he denied it ... a million times, he also agreed to go to Retrouvaille ...
We learned, or at least I learned a lot. I won't tell you much about the things you'll do in the program so I don't spoil your experience ... it is boot camp for marriages ... try not to focus your experience based on the knowledge of an affair but focus it in terms of your marriege and the both of you as a couple ... and go from there
we attended the follow-up sessions, we even attended three or four CORE meetings ...
I found later than when he was supposed to be working in us, he was calling OW ... he would call her before attending follow-up sessions and after ...
even though, I still think Retrouvaille is a great program ...

Good luck!

Fooled, my H and I went to retrouvaille within several weeks of phone contact finally ending with OW in 4/04. My H was in a 9 month EA, and about a 7 month PA. Still not sure about the PA due to WS amnsesia. H actually set up the R weekend.

At Retrovaille they ask us all not to divulge the details of the weekend because it can actually lose its impact for people like you who are going to attend. I will tell you this. They ask people who are actively in an A not to attend. However, people who are in As must attend all the time because while there they kept on telling people that Retrovaille is not the place to make a confession. I don't think the weekend can hurt your M, and it might actually help it. My H was in major withdrawal when we went. I actually e-mailed the local Retro couple who was part of the registration and asked their opinion about whether we should attend or not. Maybe you could do the same. If you go you will learn great communication tools, specifically in how to reveal your feelings safely. It could have been better for us if H wasn't in withdrawal.

A few things come to my mind regarding your story. Is your W's OM Med? I'm asking because your W reminds me of H's OW. Our OW was working for my H and when I found out about the EA part I told H she has to go. He fired her the next day, and he was "in-love". I found her love letters and the last one she wrote must have been after he fired her. She wrote, "I think you are being very selfish. I can't believe you didn't pick me." It just sounds like your W's statement. I just wonder if he's Med if his W told him OW has to go like I did. Our OW also would do the begging and pleading whenever H tried to end the A before d-day.

My H was very remorseful after d-day, but the truth dribbled out of him. It took about 6 weeks for me to get the whole truth and it was only through persistance and snooping. The love letters told me everything regarding the PA. Your W sounds like she is deep into fantasy fogland. You can't really begin recovering until she has ended NC, begins defogging, and tells you the whole truth. Bob Pure who posts here might be a good resource for you. His W was deep into fantasyland and totally unremorseful. Now, one yr. later they are very committed to one another.

Finally, as far as breaking up the A, getting the WS defogged, etc., there is nothing better than MB principles. Keep asking for advice here. This place in the early days for me was like command central. Good luck! My mantra all these months has always been "These As suck! CV

Fooled~

Hi, glad you found Marriage Builders, welcome, it's a wonderful place for you to find help and support. I am so sorry about the circumstances that brought you here...we all hate that part of our life stories.

First, I want to start by saying up front that I know nothing of the program that you are asking about...I did look it up, and it does sound like a great one, HOWEVER, if your W is still in contact with the OM or even in the beginning stages of withdrawal from her affair, then you may as well be throwing your money away. Again, I do not know anything about Retrouvaille, but, unfortunately, I do have a wealth of knowledge about the predictament that you and your W are in right now...

When I read your post I was "mouth-open" amazed at how much your wife's A sounded exactly like my own...it actually gave me a really bizarre sick type feeling in my stomach. At one point I even wondered if she and I had the same OM until I read that you guys are on the west coast. I would welcome you to read my posts if you'd like(just click on my name and then click "read all user's posts" and go back to the first one)...I am so ashamed of "my story", but it might help you to see that recovery of your marriage is certainly very possible if that is what you want.

I don't know how much that you have read on this site, but I urge you to read all that you can. Read up on Plan A and begin implementing it immediately. Also, get the book "Surviving An Affair", it is terrific, and will teach you so much. (You can get that book at the bookstore on this site or at a bookstore in your area). Those things being said, I'll move on to what you MUST do immediately if your W is still in contact with the OM...

EXPOSE! EXPOSE! EXPOSE! Which means telling people that matter in the lives of your W and the OM...only in your situation, I really don't believe you will have to tell anyone on your W's side of things...Why? Because the OM has already "dumped" her, and it sounds like she is almost forcing herself on him...ANY amount of pressure, read inconvenience, for him will result in his full retreat, I can almost guarantee it. So, if he is married tell his wife, if not, tell his parents and/or his friends or tell his co-workers and boss...are you getting the idea? I know that that sounds harsh, but it works, and I believe that you have the ideal scenario to make it work for you. Yes, if your wife finds out, she will be MAJOR mad, but your marriage CAN survive her anger...YOUR MARRIAGE CANNOT AND WILL NOT SURVIVE AN ONGOING AFFAIR! If my H would have put even the tinest amount of pressure on my OM, it would have ended things much quicker, and we would have been spared a lot of the hurt and damage of my A continuing. He had not yet found MB and so he didn't understand exposure and how it hastens the end of an A. You have an advantage here, use it!

You will want to make sure that you read as much as you can about withdrawal from affairs, as it will give you information on what to expect and how to proceed. Sadly, part of it is that you will be shouldering ALL of the blame during this time...eventually that will change...though, I'm sure that you do readily admit and own up to your part in your marital problems, the A was not your fault, that all belongs to your W, but it will be a while before she cops to that. When she is blaming you, however, just listen and agree with her...I know that has to one of the hardest things to endure, but this will give her the feeling of safety that she needs in order to open up and be honest with you.

You must understand that recovery only begins when contact with the OM has ended...completely...so if you want Retrouvaille to be worth it for you, you will want to start by making certain that the A is over and done with once and for all.

Keep posting and reading here...continue asking questions and giving updates on your situation. There are many very experienced members on this board that can guide you step by step through all of this if you let them. I am just one of the rookies here, but I wanted to post to you because of the parallels of our situations...I would be glad to offer you any insight that I can, all you have to do is ask...I wish you all the best on what I know is a very long, hard journey, but it is possible and worth it...

Mrs. Wondering

Thanks sooo much for all your support!!! It means a great deal to me. The best teacher is someone who's experienced what I'm going through. I'm so sorry you all have to be the teachers!

A couple of things:

1. OM is not married, but has a 3 year old daughter.
2. We live in the midwest, not the west coast. These OM live on the west coast because she so much wants to move there. First OM on west coast was my best friend of 25 years and the best man at our wedding.
3. Current OM is 24 years old and my wife is 39. They work for a large telecommunications company and that's how they met. Somehow, due to tech support or something, they have contact while at work, even though he's 1500 miles away.
4. She's done a good job at "getting him back". After she left our house late yesterday evening, spending a really good time with me, she she spent 189 minutes on the phone with him. This hasn't happened in over three weeks. (Yea I can access her mobile bill on line, SHAME ON ME)!
5. We have no kids because she's not able to. A hormonal imbalance!!! She was devistated about that after learning it about 2 years ago. That's when things really went down hill.

She's obviously still in this EA / PA and I'm wondering how this will effect Retrouvaille? If I EXPOSE as has been suggested, she will become furious and it may jepordize our Reatrouvaille weekend.

I DON"T KNOW WHAT TO DO???

Fooled~

If you don't expose and the affair continues, where does that leave your marriage? As I said before, your marriage can survive your W's anger, but it cannot and will not survive an ongoing affair--this is not something that I came up with on my own, it is fact, that is unless you are up for an "open" marriage, and I assume that you are not. As someone else said earlier, even the folks at Retrouvaille know that their program is of no use to a couple where one or the other is having an affair...so the way I see it is, you either do your best to bust up the affair with exposure or just let it continue and waste your time and money at the seminar...sorry if that sounds harsh, but as a FWW, I can tell you that while your W is in the affair, even Jesus himself would have a tough time getting through to her...the fog is really that thick...

Btw, there is no shame in your "spying"...YOU have every right to know what's going on in YOUR marriage, especially when decisions about YOUR life are being made without YOU...don't feel guilty about this at all...you are doing what you are supposed to do on this. Secrets have no place in marriage. Remember, people that have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

We are in the Midwest too, Michigan. My OM was down south...something about that long distance thing that really fans the flames of an A...gag, I know...Again, so sorry that you are going through this...

Mrs. Wondering

How can I expose what she won't admit too? She believes she's done nothing wrong. I guess her definition of Adultry is a sexual affair within a marriage, THAT's been WITNESSED! I've called this guy's employer, angry as could be. They did an investigation, questioned both of them, and determined "it's none of their business".

I have exposed everything to her family, brother, sister, and her three cousins who are more like siblings. They have told me I'll always be family. Her brother is one of my best friends. All three af her cousins, two doctors (1 a psyciatrist), and an attorney are also my very best friends. They all sympothise with me and she resents that. I've not ever asked them to take sides. They've also made it clear that no matter what she does, she'll always be family, and of course, I understand that.

I don't know this OM from Adam, so I don't know what more I can expose?

Another thing:

She seems to resent her family because they won't / don't feel sorry for her. They know she's responsible for all her problems. These OM of course, listnen so intently, with such compassion and concern for her... Yea, well I used to be a batchlor and know what that's about. But to her, they're the only ones who care! The only ones who understand her!!!

Dear CV55,

Thanks for the advise. Can you tell me how to contact Bob Pure since our sits are so simmilar? I can't find him as a registered user. I'd sure like to hear his story and what he has to say, as you suggested.

Thanks soooo much!

Fooled, just start a new thread asking for Bob. I'm sure there are others here who can help also. I just know Bob's W was deep into the fog and extremely nasty towards him before she came to her senses. Bob had to Plan A like crazy. I don't believe he had to expose, but did contact the O's live in GF.

How long have you been Med? Any children? Just curious. I know this is so hard but you are asking the right questions at the right place. CV

Fooled~

I didn't realize that you had exposed to that many people...one of your posts seemed to imply that you had not exposed and were scared of her reaction if you did so...anyway, you could try zabasearch.com to get information about the OM...Does the OM know that you are still in the picture and that your W has commited to going to a seminar to work on saving your marriage with you? She could just as easily be hiding things from him as she is from you...do you have an email address for him or any way of calling him at work? If you have either one of those things you could try contacting him and letting him know that you are very much fighting for your marriage and that he should back off...especially being as young as he is this could very well work...guys that age usually don't want the hassle.

Also, you can look up b0b pure* by typing it just as I have...note that that is a zero and not a capital O...

I wish you all the best and hope you continue to read and post here for support...

Blessings,

Mrs. Wondering

Dear Wonderings,

I do have his mobile number and his email address. I think it's a great risk doing what you are suggesting because I've caused grief with his employer, and have sent a couple of "far less than nice" emails to him. He has also sent me very mean text messages. Needless to say, there's no love between us. Now I'm asking for his help?? He may do just the opposite simply to spite me. I understand what you are saying and I am very tempted to do so. I'm simply afraid it will backfire on me as so many other things have! He could either do the right thing, or tell my wife what I've done which may further distance her. He could also try and get even closer to her simply to spite me, I don't know. However, after thinking about it, if I compose it in a professional, caring manner, even if he did forward it to her, she may just see it as an attempt to resolve our problems. Or, she may see it as me trying to come between this guy she's grown so fond of, which she's already accused me of. Or, I could use an alias email and pleed with him to do these things representing myself as someone else close to her. He knows none of her friends or family because she hides it all. I know that sounds devious, but everything in this whole mess has been devious. The real outcome I'm affraid of is that he would intentionally get closer to her, for the time being, to help destroy our marriage retreat. I ought to just go out there and kick his [censored] all the way down to Mexico. I'm so scared of putting trust in someone who's done so much to come between us!

What do you think??? Again, I really appreciate your advise and help. You don't know how much it means to get some objective advise and guidence from people who actually know and understand the situation!!! Thanks soooo much!!!

Please advise on what I should do, ok???

One other thing,

As far as OM knowing if I'm still in the picture, or that she tells him as she does me that she wants to work on our marriage, who knows? My guess is 99% no. I think /know she talks horrible things about me to everyone who doesn't know me very well. She can't do that with people who do, they know better. Besides, I just started DBing a little over a week ago. Before that, there was no discussion of reconciliation, or anything nice at all. It proves that this WORKS!!!

Oh, to your other questions:

Me: 43
Her: 39
Been married 5 1/2 years.
Both been married once before. Mine was brief although I lived with her for several years. She slept with all my friends without much guilt. She was an alcholic, and had many other issues. I didn't see any point in trying. Boy can I pickem!

Wifes first husband was her high school sweetheart. They wernt married however until much later. 7 years total I believe. No Kids from any marriage. Ex husband got sick of almost the exact same thing she's doing to me now. He's very laid back where as I'm much more assertive. He hid his dissatisfation of marriage. They were to move back to home town. He stated he was staying until his employer would transfer him. She found out by accident through one of his co-workers that he wasn't coming back. He finaly had to confess he wanted a divorce! Throught their whole marriage he stated he never wanted kids and wouldn't go thru with the fertility stuff I did. He's now re-married with a 1 1/2 year old kid. SHE HATES THAT BEYOND BELIEF. They do still stay in occational contact. Her family loves him as they do me! I've never met him but sounds like a pretty good guy. I've often thought of calling him to get the user's manual, but it looks as though he lost it too.

Fooled, don't expect any warm, fuzzy reactions from the OM. That suddenly he's going to care about your M. Also, being that he lives out of town, he doesn't really have to face the consequences of his actions. I would just be curious if he's single, Med, does he have a GF? Exposing to a W or a GF could put pressure on him.

GQll is a great place to get strategic advice. If you have some specific questions be really clear on your subject heading to get the best responses. There are people who have been around here much longer than I that can help you. All I can say is that you need to have as clear of a head as possible. Your W is the fogged out one here. Have you read SAA? Keep posting! CV

Well, one of the program presenters for Retrovaille called each one of us separately yesterday, to ask us each questions relating to our attempt at reconciliation during the upcoming weekend.

One question was, "are you willing to work on your marriage?" She answered yes. Another statement was, "You understand that any third party relationships, emotional, sexual, or otherwise, must be ended completly prior to the weekend." This simply required an acknowledgement to which she said she understood.

I expressed all my concerns to the person who contacted me when we first spoke. I spoke to this person the first time they called. My wife didn't respond to this persons attempt at calling her for 2 days, even after 3 tries. It was not until I told her that they had been trying to reach her did she return the call.

This person later told me that they sensed some hesitation to the acknowledgment question regarding third party relationships. Anyway, this is all that they can do. As they put it, you must take someone at their word that they understand and will do what’s necessary in order for the program to work, you really can do nothing else. This person who was also the betrayer in their marriage said it’s quite common for WS to tell you want you want to hear. She does this to me often. WHY IS THAT??? It would seem if she’s unwilling to do what it takes, just say so and not waste each others time, RIGHT?

She is certainly in the deepest depression I've ever seen her in. We’ve been separated since early June, so I don’t believe she can blame all her problems, including depression on me as she always has, but I haven’t brought up this obvious observation yet. She's been diagnosed with chronic depression for well over 12 years, and at one point about 1 year ago Doc said she was bi-polar. She refuses to take the meds, Lithium, because of several different silly reasons, but I believe the truth is she doesn't want the "stigma" that taking the drug would indicate. Prozac, Effexor, ect., for depression is almost "trendy" these days, but not that one.

Any advise on her state of mind (or lack of), or our upcoming weekend, or what else to do, would be SOOO GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks again so much for everyone’s help and support who’s responded. It means so much to me in this devastating time!!!

Fooled~

Well, the bipolar issue actually changes your situation quite a bit...I'm not sure how much you know about this illness, but one of the obstacles that those affected with it face is promiscuity...a rather bizarre symptom, I know. There are a myriad of other idiosyncrises connected to bipolar disorder...some that are not even known by many mental health professionals unless they have had first hand experience dealing with it.

My father is bipolar and has been cycling since I was 10 years old...I am 36, so I do have quite a frame of reference where this disorder is concerned. She REALLY must take the meds, though one of the biggest struggles in the life of someone with this disease is accepting that-my father only began taking Depakote along with a few other drugs last summer, but it was the end to his 40 year marriage to my mom that acted as the catalyst to this long awaited decision-he still has doubts about staying medicated. I am not advising you to divorce, just giving you the facts of what happened in my situation...

I cannot express to you just how much damage an unmedicated bipolar can inflict on themselves and others. It isn't that the drugs aren't "trendy" enough, but rather that Lithium, Depakote and the like actually make the bipolar feel what many of them describe as "slowed down", lethargic or somehow less creative. Doctors have explained it to my family as a feeling of coming down from a cocaine high, just as cocaine addict would most certainly not enjoy this, neither does someone with bipolar disorder. Also, the depression is almost to much to bare, and any feeling of "cycling down" would not be welcomed, understandably. Depakote, by the way, has been shown to produce less side effects for many people than Lithium. Also, Lithium requires constant monitoring of blood levels-clearly a pain, especially in someone having a hard time coming to grips with taking meds at all. Depakote doesn't require this kind of maintenance...I still think that your wife may balk regarding any of these types of meds...she could consult her Doctor regarding something like Neurontin or Topamax(sp?), these are both anti-convulsants used as mood stabilizers or perhaps Zyprexa which is an anti-psychotic(sounds worse than it is, although it can cause significant weight gain for some people). My advice to you would be to immediately get into individual counseling with a counselor that is experienced with bipolar disorder...trust me, you will need it.

I'm sorry that I can't really give much helpful advice on your wife's A or your marital retreat. But as long as your W goes unmedicated, unfortunately A's, be they ONS's or otherwise may continue you to plague your life...perhaps this could help you to understand her behavior in her first marriage and why hubby #1 decided he couldn't take it any longer...you talked earlier of contacting him...he could quite possibly offer you some insight here...

There will probably be some folks on here who will disagree with me, but I'm just not sure that MB principles can be applied to an affair involving someone with bipolar disorder . That's not to say that you can't still get support here and try...I am certainly not saying that your W is "bad", actually people with bipolar disorder are some of the most brillant, engaging and successful people out there...many of them are famous...Ted Turner, Abraham Lincoln, Patty Duke, Kristy McNichol, and about a gazillion others. You can have a happy life married to a bipolar, it just takes a lot of understanding and some very clear boundaries on your part. Read as much as you can about it, and run, don't walk to counseling.

I will be out of town for most of today and tomorrow, but I will be thinking of you and praying for you...I will try to check in on Sunday...Take care of YOU!

Mrs. Wondering

Dear Wonderings,

WOW, what a plethora of knowledge you have regarding Bipolar Disorder!

I haven’t really considered it lately and honestly almost didn’t mention it. Your insight caused me to re-think and re-research the issue for quite some time. As I’ve stated, my biggest supporters in this whole thing has been her family. My W’s mother died when she was 10 years old, and as the oldest child, I believe it had profound and permanent effects on her. My W’s father died about 12 years after that. She battled with father who was very strict, then battled with Brother who became somewhat head of household after father died, then she battled with Hubby1. Then she battled with me. Bro is one of the greatest guy’s I know and I remind my W all the time how fortunate she is to have a brother that cares for her and loves her so much! She’s very rebellious! It’s almost as if she’ll do just the opposite when in a conflict, just to prove some stupid point.

I’ve discussed the bipolar issue with her Cousin, Psychiatrist. He discounts it and says “everyone’s bipolar to some extent” and he’s right. He’s very opinionated and discounts most all medical issues and use of drugs, stating it doesn’t get to the real problem. He “beats me up” every time we discuss the sit., saying what I’ve continued doing wrong and what I must change for things to work for us. I know what he’s doing (taking the opposite side on purpose) and that’s why I go to him sometimes. It’s so easy to have most anyone validate your side of things when hearing only one side of the story, but it doesn’t solve anything, but they will agree with you all day long about “what a dirtbag your spouse is!” So I take it with a grain of salt when he’s yelling at me that I still don’t get it. But I do get it better than he thinks! He always tells me later that he takes the exact opposite side when discussing me with her. Also, we are really good friends. He has pretty much dropped the “my fault” attitude after this last crisis when she left to go see OM2. He’s a strong Christian and reminds me of my vows, telling me “weather she meant her vows or not, have no bearing on the vows you made”. He’s so right. I’m a man of my word and I meant what I said before god, even if she didn’t! He and I both agree about there being no clause in our vows that said “or until I can’t stand it anymore!” We both know this because we were both there. What is it about “TILL DEATH DO US PART” that you don’t get!!! He and I seem to be the only people I know that value those beliefs. It all comes down to being a truly benevolent person, but sometimes we just can’t be as much as we would like to think we can. He’s been married since age 19 to the same woman for 25 years.

My W’s Cousin, Attorney (female) says the exact opposite. “I love my brother, but on this issue he’s simply wrong!” No one should stay in an unhappy marriage and marriage is not a charity! Of course, much of her practice is divorce. I’ll quit rambling.

Bipolar, perhaps, but it’s a subjective diagnosis. Who knows? She discounts it because she says she has no manic episodes. Well that may be true on the surface, but when she’s lying to me and out cheating on me and betraying our marriage, she’s doing it because it gives her some kind of pleasure greater than our marriage. So to me those are manic episodes. Yesterday morning she said she was so depressed that she couldn’t go on. Today she comes by in a great mood telling me she’s going out with her girl friends tonight. Yesterday morning I asked her to reconsider the medication her doctor had originally suggested. She said that she would have to go back to him and he’s not on her new insurance, and he’s not going to just call it in because of the monitoring. I said then go to another doctor. Last night I sent her a couple of emails with great links that really defined what bipolar disorder is and some very strong statistics, ect. Well she went out for a couple beers with one of her GF after work and called me when she got home. I think she actually went from a depressed state to a manic state later that same day. I asked her to check the emails. She did, it made her angry and she replied to them with sarcasm. I prefaced the first email by saying “please accept this information in the way it was intended, I love you so much and can’t stand to see you suffer”. But her attitude changed from earlier that day from discussing it and why she couldn’t get medicine easily, to “how dare I suggest she has such a problem. You, Hubby2 are the one who’s insane, not me. Everybody knows that!” She has been hospitalized once when sis thought she took too many Klonipin's in aneffort to kill herself after hubby1 left her. See often talks of suicide, so much so that no one takes her seriously anymore. Yes, she is a "DRAMA QUEEN"! One other thing, she takes those Klonopin's all the time. I've heard those can cause depression?

This opens up a whole new predicament for me now. If she’s really bipolar, then I should stay by her side because she’s sick. And just as if she had any other disease or she was crippled, I of course would stay by her and never leave. Without the bipolar issue it’s easier for me to justify bailing out. She’s committed Adultery at least twice (even though she won’t admit it), and I see no desire for her to change. Although the Bible sees no good reason for divorce, Adultery is an acceptable ground for divorce.

Retrovaille information came to me today and I asked her if she got her info for our upcoming weekend. She said she did. It’s SO CLEARLY STATED IN THEIR INFO, “We must emphasize again there can be no third party involvement in your relationship. If either of you is having an affair, you must definitely and completely end it before coming to Reatrovaille. You cannot honestly expect to work on your marriage if this kind of involvement has not ended. You cannot hope for a real chance and a successful experience. The only thing you could expect is to bring a great deal of pain upon yourself and your spouse”. Perhaps she plans on “ending it” the night prior to the program because last night she spent 104 minutes on the phone with OM2. However, if I confronted her she would deny everything stating that they’re just friends and this is all my problem of perception. Read my previous posts and tell me what you think their R is? So I’m letting this one slide, but will keep checking.

Thanks again soo much Wonderings for all the valuable information and making me reconsider her disease, weather that’s good or bad. I really think that bipolar is the case. You said your Father was recently divorced and also diagnosed as bipolar. Tell me if you don’t mind, whose idea was it to get divorced? How did the other react? Also, explain more what you mean about “very clear boundaries on my part, in regards to being married to a bipolar?” Your knowledge and insight on this is fascinating, especially since you were the one on the other end of the A. It’s really helping me to see the true picture from someone who’s lived it. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it!

God bless everyone who’s on this site and especially those who’ve replied to my calls for help! This is certainly the most difficult thing I’ve ever experienced, and this forum helps soo much!!! Please keep the advice coming. I’m hoping for something to come from this weekend, even if it’s horrible.

Hey Fooled

Mrs. Wonderings is asleep but I am certain she will be posting back to you in the morning. I can give a few of my thoughts knowing what I know as an outside observor to my father-in-law's Bipolar disorder.

All the stuff I read online gives huge caveats regarding how impossible it is to assess someone as Bipolar when they are utilizing or abusing med's. I've seen Klonapin (sp?) in action and it makes anyone behave bizarre. That's not to say your wife is not Bipolar because a big characteristic of bipolar is self medication, impulse control and substance abuse. But it should be eliminated first before any true assesment can be made.

With my Father-in-law I was able to create a timeline on paper to demonstrate that his major mania episodes generally occurred on 3 year cycles back to about 1978. Whether that's common, I have know idea, but I think I've read that males on average have longer and more severe mania episodes. (By the way, the timeline thing was not successfull at convincing him he was manic).

Perhaps my biggest help to my wife (and suggestion to you) was getting my wife to stop obsessively trying to convince her father he was manic. Especially when he was in a manic cycle. What good does it do to tell a globally retarded person that they are globally retarded? It's the same with a Bipolar...There's absolutely no getting through. So why put yourself through the argument when the other party has no ability to comprehend what you are saying? They must inevitably either hit rock bottom or otherwise seek appropriate medical assistance for themselves.

I remember the frustration of every time we'd get a Doctor to say he was Bipolar then he would pull his "act" together to convince some other (usually non-pyschiatrist) Doctor to say he wasn't in some cursory without even an assesment way. Or he'd go on and on about how we should "prove it", it's us that are crazy or merely making him crazy so leave him alone. 5 minutes later back in our face. It drove me nuts and I am a very patient man.

Fool, you have all my sympathy.

Good luck. Mr. Wondering

p.s - I'm tired, I'll let Mrs. Wondering edit this 2-morrow

Oh my god!!! Now there’s OM3!!!

Thanks for your post Mr. Wanderings! The names actually Fooled, but that’s ok, after reading my newest post, I’m considering changing it to just “Fool” anyway!

I’ve been suspicious of this cockroach for quite some time, but now have conformation!!!

I told you that she said she was going out with girl friends last night? Well, I’ve been sooo lied to for sooo long I just don’t trust her anymore. I also got suspicious when she told me who all she was going out with. They were the same people whose party we went to last week and had a pretty good time. I asked if she would like for me to go with her again. She immediately said no, this was a “girl’s night out” thing. I asked, what about the two BF’s of your two friends you just mentioned. She said something really silly like, oh, there just there for protection. Besides, you would get mad or jealous if I went and danced, or something. That is absurd. I don’t like to dance anymore and encourage her to dance with whoever she wants when we go out!

Well, as I always say, “if it smells fishy, it usually is”. And in her case it usually turns out to really stink! I noticed on her phone records that she’d been talking to this guy that’s had a thing for her for quite some time. He emails her occasionally with all the stupid chain emails that have been forwarded from 30 different people before him. In the past, if we had been fighting, she would call him sometimes for support, but it’s been over a year. Well, just like all the others, he tells her what she wants to hear, says he believes she’s a great person, and sometimes it’s for the best to divorce! Of course he really knows nothing about her and certainly doesn’t have to be married to her. But he’s such a passive wimp, they may actually work out pretty well together! The other thing is he’s a home builder and seems to have a LOT of money! He’s got a HUGE 5000+ sq foot home in a very prestigious and gated community. Two years ago we went to a married couple’s annual Christmas party. I had to work late that night so I told her to go with my former best friend, the best man at our wedding who always stays with us over Christmas because he’s from CA. This is the guy who became OM1! Anyway, I show up at party about 2 hours later and there’s now, OM3 standing there talking to her real close like. He knew I didn’t like him anymore because of his past contacts that I considered inappropriate. I went straight up to her and gave her a big hug and kiss and said I was sorry for being late. I did this intentionally to aggravate him of course. I turned around and he WAS GONE! Not from the room, not from the house, HE LEFT! This guy’s about 5’3 and about 100 lbs tops and he knows that I could squish him like a cockroach! He’s not married, divorced about 8 years, and has a son that’s in his first year of college out of state. As a mater of fact, when I caught her emailing him recently, telling him we had separated and there were so many changes in her life, and they should get together and “catch up”, and even more baloney that makes me sick, he replied that he would be busy for the next couple weeks taking his son to college, among other things. But he would call her when he returned. We’ll almost to the day, he did!

Here’s what I don’t get…
WS separates to have better contact with OM2 because I get mad when he calls at 1:00am.

WS and I start getting along much better because I’ve been MBing.

OM2 dumps WS for some reason I still don’t know. She gets really depressed because “everything’s wrong”. She can never be specific!

I ask her if she wants to go to Retrovaille about a week and a half ago, because it was impossible for us to travel 300 miles when looking at it 2 years ago, and it's in our home town in 2 weeks. She says, without hesitation or me “selling” her on it”, YES!

Give her the brochures and have her fill out and sign the enrolment form two days later (she could have backed out then), which she signs acknowledging that any 3rd party affairs must end, and a commitment to working on our marriage.

Retrovaille coach calls her to confirm everything she said above, driving the point home that this is how it must be for it to work. She understands.

Retovaille info and conformation for this Friday arrives at each of our houses yesterday, driving the same point home and encouraging you to “back out” if you can’t do the things stated. She confirms she’s received it, no problem.

WS knows at this time she’s got a date with OM3 for later that same evening. I suspected it , but confirmed myself to be sure. He probably thinks that since he’s in such a swanky, gated community, she could park in back and I’d never be able to know. Well, among other things, I’m also a Realtor, but I won’t admit it because I do other stuff. The Realtor deal’s a long story. I’m working with WS Cousin, ER Doctor, trying to find him and his wife a home in an almost exact price range and location. So I call to schedule a showing for one of the nearby properties and get the MASTER gate code in about two minutes.

Wait until about 8:30pm when she said she would be arriving at GF’s house to go out together. Drive by OM3’s house instead and low and behold, there’s her car, kinda parked around back as much as possible. Go back at 7:00am this morning and what do you think? Yep, car still there parked there in the exact same place. Actually, they almost ran into me last night backing out so fast, red sportscar, drives fast for effect, probably has a 1 ½ in. ?? Fortunately, I was smart enough to borrow someone else’s car in case that happened.

OM3 “coackroach” tells me a few years ago when I still talked to him that he’s an atheist, thru and thru. My WS, being the devout Christian woman she is jumps at the first opportunity to be with this seemingly well to do DORK atheist!

Do you see why I’m getting mixed signals here? What’s her objective? If I cramp her style and she hates the way I respond to her Omen’s, why continue and sign up ect??? Just go away and go for the record of “most platonic relationships with other men”, without the consequences of the BS’s anger?

I REALLY DON’T GET IT!!! I know if I were to confront her she would make up some hairbrained story about how she got to be there somehow through some incredible event that couldn’t be seen as her fault, and how she had to stay the night, in the guest room, on the opposite “west” wing, far away from his room, under lock and key, because she’d probably had too much to drink, But of course nothing happened, oooh, how gross she’d say. You know I think he’s an unattractive geek? Well, these situations seems to happen to her in some form quite a bit where she has to stay alone for some reason, no fault of hers of course, with another man. It’s almost freaky how coincidental this is. But how dare I suggest she’s done anything inappropriate. That’s insulting and she won’t stand for it! Here’s a question I really want the answer to. Does the sexual act of an affair have to be witnessed? Or does overwhelming evidence prove guilt??? I doubt it’s ever actually witnessed much at all, yet other WS’s fess up to it when it becomes so obvious?

It’s not the opportunity of getting a better divorce settlement! We have no kids, and a divorce settlement would be simple because I've spent every dime I've ever saved or made trying to please her, therefore, there's nothing to get from me except, perhaps my bicycle! I was a fairly wealthy man when I met her. I can't blame that all on her, but she's certainly been a huge drain on me financially.

What’s her deal??? Do I confront and expose? She’ll certainly cancel our weekend, but will our weekend even mean a thing under these conditions? I’m really just curious to go through with it just to see what happens. She’s a horrible liar and I feel she’d have to face some reality at some point? I’m so frustrated!!! I’m thinking I’m getting somewhere and BAM, OM3. Right after all acknowledgments and assurances to me and to Retro.

I’m going out of my mind. She told me before going out to see OM3, (I mean GF) yesterday that she’d like to go out on our boat today. I said I’d like that because we haven’t been in so long. Now I’m afraid to even see her, and how I might react. OM3 probably saw me this morning because it was just getting light and I took some digital pictures of her car being there. Don’t ask me why? I just keep all the evidence for some reason, but it never seems to matter. I think if OM3 did see me or I raised a stink with him, he may quickly back off because he’s afraid of me. And we have several mutual friends and it could be very sleezy in appearance. Or, he could use this opp to look like a “stud”! I’ve never seen any other opps in nearly 6 years for him to do so. I don’t think he’d tell WS if he did see me, and I know she didn’t see me. She doesn’t do “before Noon’s” well at all. Especially if she’s been out the night before. We’ve got 3 alarm clocks that sound like tornado sirens, which she’ll sleep right through. What do you think I should do? I was successful gitting rid of OM1 using a similar approach. Didn’t know OM2, he dumped her for some other reason! But she did talk to him 104 minutes on the phone just the night before last. What about exposing OM3 and OM2 to each other? That might be interesting? I think OM3’s kinda obsessed with her, but I think he’s more of a coward! Huge age difference though, OM3 could be OM2’s father.

Help, Help, Please Help!!! Retro’s 6 days away and look at her???

Fooled...can you give me some idea of the kind of things that her family has told you...I'm not trying to pry, but as I said before, many times there are some behaviors that are associated with bipolar disorder that even the best mental health professionals don't recognize unless they have lived it. In fact, it sounds like your wife's cousin may very well fit that profile, but I'll address that a bit later. Has her family given you any idea of the first time any of her symptoms presented? Also, do any of them have any information regarding the mental health of her parents? Many times this disorder is inherited through the mother, btw (my dad's mother was bipolar).


Many times traumatic events in the life of someone who has a predisposition to bipolar disorder can trigger their first episode. My father's first episode came on in reaction to his own father's diagnosis with Alzheimers. It has been explained to me that there are some people who have the "bipolar gene", but never "cycle"...they, it seems, were/are lucky enough to never have anything traumatic enough in their lives to "pull" the "bipolar trigger". Perhaps that is what your wife's cousin means by everyone being somewhat bipolar...devil's advocate or not, I must tell you that I have a tough time understanding his rationale when making that particular statement...


Can you give me some examples of "rebellious" & "battled"? Is she ALWAYS like this in the face of conflict or is it sometimes more pronounced? Are there any "key" phrases or hand/body gestures that she uses? Is her speech ever rapid or seemingly forced? Does conflict ever push her to the point that she feels unable to deal with it verbally and therefore feels the need to write letters or have others write letters to her? Does she fixate (almost obsessively) on certain things or events at different periods of her life? Does she go from this rebellious type behavior into periods of deeply religious expression? Does she get very excited about big ideas that she comes up with? Is she very creative or does she have a very gregarious "sales" type of personality?


Fooled, I understand that this man is your friend, and I don't wish to isolate you by questioning someone that you highly regard, but I have genuine concern with his take on your situation, so I am compelled to address it. First, when you live with someone who has a mental illness, you already find yourself questioning whether or not it is you and are you going crazy...some of the things that go on in households dealing with these type issues really cause you to have a need for others to validate what's going on, because the person that is affected sure as heck won't. Does that sound familiar? The members of her immediate family seem to understand this on some level, though they may not even know why. Remember, they have LIVED WITH HER, and I would be willing to bet that her cousin NEVER has...that makes his opinion not as valid in my view...I promise you that people who have lived with the bipolar are a much better measure of that persons behavior than even the most educated of mental health professionals out there...the family develops a "sixth sense" that is keener than any other. In my reading, counseling (with a counselor who's late H was and daughter is bipolar), and personal experience, I have come to understand that there is SOOOOO... much that the mental health community does not "get" in regards to this illness. It is quite a cunning disorder, and sometimes hard to recognize and certainly to understand unless you have "walked the walk". As the highest functioning of the mentally ill, bipolars can be the most crafty and manipulating people on the face of the earth...enough to "fool" even the most experienced professionals...psyciatrists DEFINITELY included!!!

What does he say the "real problem" is? What exactly does he say that you are doing "wrong"? His telling you what you are doing "wrong" really concerns me, as it somehow implies that you can control your W's behavior. It, as I'm sure you know, is impossible to control the behavior of anyone else, but that is ESPECIALLY true regarding a person affected with bipolar disorder...THEY can't even control themselves...how could you be expected to?

His take on meds also makes me a bit nervous...sounds a bit "Tom Cruisesque"...



My mom struggled with this for so long. My father became so abusive and controlling that there became no other way. The counselor that I go to is a Christian counselor, and she and I have discussed mental illness and how it relates to what the Bible refers to as demon possession. In Matthew 5, after Jesus heals the demon possessed man that was living in a tomb, He then tells him to go home to his family...this speaks to someone not being able to live with one who is demon possessed. Obviously, in your case if you do decide to divorce, adultery is a biblical "out"...only God knows what is between you and Him. I also do not think that God wants you to allow yourself to be destroyed by another.



What type of behavior was your W exhibiting in order for the doctor to make the bipolar diagnosis? Also, I have yet to meet an unmedicated bipolar who "admits" to an episode of mania or hypomania...interesting, however, that they are more ok with copping to the depression (a very uncomfortable condition, as opposed to the high of mania) and will more readily take the drugs to treat that...anxiety drugs are also accepted, if not sought out, by them...Btw, many times people with bipolar disorder have substance abuse problems, this is referred to in the mental health community as a "dual diagnosis"...bipolars try to "self medicate" it is hypothesized.



Read up on "rapid cycling" and see if it sounds familiar to you. The above desciption certainly could be categorized in this way.



Pretty dead on textbook reaction. They flip one way and then the next regarding their diagnosis. My dad will call himself bipolar and then 5 minutes later berate any doctor or person who has ever even mentioned the disorder in the same breath with his name...You cannot apply logic to the illogical. Bipolars process information differently than the rest of society, even when not in a cycle. What you have to keep in mind is that a mentally ill person is ALWAYS mentally ill, even when they are not in an "episode" and even when medicated...you cannot cure mental illness, you can only treat it.


Transference...I can't tell you how many times my dad used this...He told my mom she was "nuts" so much that she began to wonder herself at times...he would call my mom's friends and family and tell them how very worried he was about her...he even called the police saying that she was suicidal(so not true)...some of his behaviors often were too bizarre to even repeat to other people, because they almost did make you sound like the crazy one...the behaviors were so off the wall, that at times they took on a very fictional or even cartoonish tone.


Pretty common...my dad was involuntarily commited last year for doing the same thing with Xanax...ran his car into the side of KFC and my mom's house, fell down, cut his head open, and was begging for more Xanax(he had taken eight 2mg pills in less than 24 hrs.), which is when my mom called the ambulance. Btw, if my dad sounds at any time like he is "worse" than your W, two things could explain that...(1) There are several different types of bipolars...categories, if you will-some with more mania, some with more depression, and so on...my dad's manic episodes last for around 6 months at a time...to me that seems to be the worst kind, but I suppose it's all relative...AND (2)The episodes get more severe with age, my dad is now 60 and has been cycling since he was 35(pretty late onset, btw).


Yes, they can cause depression and they are also a common "drug of choice" for an abuser...remember the "dual diagnosis"...




Of course your staying with her is an option...this is where counseling is of the utmost importance, without it, living with someone affected by bipolar disorder can be damaging to beyond repair. This is were you will learn to draw the boundaries that I mentioned in my earlier post. You will learn that your wife's illness may explain her behavior, but it DOES NOT excuse it! Your boundaries are yours specifically and the counselor will help you to define them as they apply in situations that you face in your life. Boundaries protect you from feeling responsible for your W's choices. Some boundaries may be emotional ones where others will be practical solutions for dealing with the circumstances created by your W's mental illness.


I believe that before marital issues can be addressed, the Bipolar Disorder must be taken care of. For years, my father blamed marital issues for the problems that were constantly plaguing his life...he saw these as marital problems because my mom (like any non mentally ill person would) questioned his irrational actions and behaviors..."challenging" a bipolar's rationale always leads to their tirades and blaming of others...my parents marriage would have been wonderful had it not been for his untreated illness. In times when he was not cycling, I could not cite a better example of marital bliss than that shared by my parents. Failure of BOTH my mother and father to deal with his illness led to more pain for my entire family than anyone could imagine. My mom was always ready to sweep everything under the rug once a manic episode was behind us. She wanted so desperately to enjoy a "normal" family life, that rocking the boat during "happy" times wasn't an option...fuzzy boundaries. The times that he was not in an episode would have been ideal for her to have put into place a plan for what would happen the next time a cycle began, regardless of my dad's choices regarding medication...the plan should have been for her to protect HERSELF and my brother and I. Later in my adult years and based on my getting counseling, I have told her, as I am now going to tell you, It is fine for you to choose to live with an unmedicated mentally ill person, but with that choice come consequences...you MUST have plans in place to deal with those in a way that works for YOU...plans that allow YOU to help YOU no matter what the person with the illness does. To give you examples applicable to you, I would need more examples of the types of behaviors that your W exhibits. As far as the A behavior is concerned, if that is a symptom of your W's illness and she continues to refuse medication and treatment, can you deal with that? I understand you wanting to "stick it out" as you would with a physical illness, and while that is commendable, it may not be practical for you...that is what you must determine in counseling...what are your boundaries where this is concerned? Will this be too much damage for you to endure?


My mom finally had to choose to save herself...her physical and mental well being finally had to be put on the forefront. My father was and remains devasted by the decision, but it wasn't until then that he would even consider taking and staying on meds. Even a court order did not keep him on track the way that this has. It makes you wonder what would have happened if she had done this 26 years ago...would my dad have gotten help and saved ALL of us the damage, grief and suffering that we have endured? He very nearly destroyed all of us, but it is the damage done to himself that remains his biggest cross to bare...he's 60, looks 75, has made and lost several fortunes and remains in financial ruin today, has huge IRS problems that he will never overcome, has had more heart attacks and bypasses to name (all stress related according to doctors), multiple DUI's and other arrests and the list goes on and on...I want you to understand that my father is not some low class skid row bum...this man was at one time a "pillar of the community"...He was the vice president of a bank at the age of 35 with no college education...owned a successful car business in addition to that...belonged to every prestigious club in town...coached little league...was in church every Sunday and was the embodiment of every other thing that you can think of in terms of "success". Without treatment, mental illness obliterates the lives of those in it's grips, as well as the lives of any in it's wake. It is one of the cruelest and most life altering fates that I have ever witnessed...I urge you to be as proactive where this is concerned as possible...My heart goes out to you and your situation, and I will help you in any way that I can...


Mrs. Wondering

I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT SHE HAS AND WHAT HAS CHANGED ME SO BAD OVER THE PAST 6 YEARS.

Ok, I appreciate your advise on the bipolar thing soo much and want to address all your concerns and questions. But right now I've got something so much more pressing!

Someone says she's not going to stop until she destroys me. In many ways, she already has. I have nothing compared to six years ago and I look as if I've aged 12 years. More medical problems, ect. But my this person's instincts on most of this have been right on the money.

She comes across as the most sweet, fun-loving girl to everyone. That's why we've had trouble in counseling, she's so believable!

SHE LIVES IN A FANTACY WORLD OF HER OWN IMAGINATION, I SWEAR! I honestly think she believe the lies she says! I've often asked the question, If she BELIEVES it, is SHE LYING?

HELP!!!

She just called. talked about going out on boat today but Bro was so mad at her for no reason at all. She really thinks he needs to get a grip on his issues. HELLO, she flat out LIED THU HER TEETH when we discussed last night. She says it was her and 3 other girls who went out, and no one else. GF_A drove, and they stayed at her apartment which is right around the corner from my house, but no where near where her car actually stayed all night last night, which was OM3's house. I see now why she says she drove there, simple change of plans, instead of meeting at GF_B's houses. It would have been to easy for me to drive by and check GF_B's house I know right where it is. But even in a huge apertment complex just around the corner and not knowing which apartment it is, I could have eaisly missed it doing a drive by! Very good WS! The problem is though that I've got photo's of where she and her car spent the night. It's amazing to think that she can so BOLDY lie. I could barely keep quiet, but I did.

It's all so clear now. Except, what do I do!!! She was real intersted if I spoke withBro last night and if so, what about? I'm firmly convinced she's "way gone with reality". I've known this for some time, but to try and point it out to her in ways that are indisputable to a rational person is a waste of time. I might as well be talking to my keyboard. AS FAR AS R, WHAT DO I DO??? I WANT SO BAD TO CONFRONT HER WITH WHAT I KNOW, BUT THEN SHE"LL SIMPLY FOCUS THE BLAME BACK ON ME AND HOW SHE CAN"T BE MARRIED TO ME ANYMORE, BUT AT THIS POINT, I DON"T KNOW. Mom's so scared, and I am too that I'm going to let her litterally kill me. Not with physical abuse, but mental and emotional trama!

WHAT DO I DO???

Fooled...

I just saw your last post...I was posting to you when you put that through...Oh Man I Am So Sorry! I know that you must be hurting so much right now...I am going to wait and address the stuff you mentioned in this last post later...after you've answered the questions in my last one to you...I just wanted you to know that someone is reading your posts and thinking of you...I'll say a prayer that you will be given clarity to do what God wants you to do in this situation...but remember, God helps those who help themselves, please find a good counselor...

Mrs. Wondering

P.S. If you would like to contact me off the boards, Mr. Wondering and I have an email acct. set up for communicating with our marriage builder friends...
the_wonderings@yahoo.com ...drop me a note at any time you feel like you may need extra support or have a question or situation too specific to put on the boards...sometimes we do forget to check it though...so you might have to prompt us to do so in your thread on the board...as in, "hey wonderings, check your email!!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> the_wonderings@yahoo.com

Fooled,

What a knack we have for posting at the same time, huh?

What to do? Gosh, I hate to throw this back in your lap, but what do YOU think you should do??? Go back and re-read your own thread as if it were someone else's and tell me what advice you would give?

Aside from that, you would be wise to make an appt. with Steve Harley (Click on "Counseling Center" at the top of the page to find out how)...he will be able to advise you regarding the best way to handle your current crisis...be sure to tell him of the bipolar diagnosis...

Lean on your mom and other people close in your life for support...Get on your knees and pray, if you can't collect your thoughts enough to do that (I've been there), then just read scripture...just open the Bible to any place at all and begin reading...you will be amazed at the peace that this will give you...this is advice that I got from my Christian counselor, and it does work miracles...

Thinking of you...

Mrs. Wondering

Dear Wonderings,

Thanks so much for your continued support. The situation seems to do nothing but get worse. Good advice though, go back and re-read threads as if it was someone else. MAN, when you take the emotion out of it the choice is simple. Run fast, run far, and never look back!

I think I felt preasure earlier after talking to her, to make a quick decission. She really seemed to want to do something today, as though everythings fine.

I realized, this needs to quit being about her at the moment and be about me. I haven't eaten or slept much in the past 3 days. I don't think I have a clear enough head right now to know what to do. So guess what, she's going to have to wait and find out, although she has no idea right now what I'm even deciding. SHE WILL NO LONGER BE IN CONTROL OF ME, I WILL. IF SHE CALLS BACK, WHICH SHE HASN'T DONE YET, I DON'T ANSWER! I'm taking a hot shower and going to bed until tomorrow. Will she get concerned, no. I think the only reason she called around 1:00pm today was to see what I knew. She knows if I've caught her doing somthing, I can't wait 10 minutes to expose it to her. This site and what I've learned has changed that and so many other things. She may have to wait even longer than tomorrow. I'm on my schedule now! I think I need to read some more and fomulate a stratagy by where she either agrees to some type of Policy of Joint Agreement, which is non negotiable in any way and incudes a verifyable NC rule to which she's held accountable. She needs to realize that it's not IF she gets help, but WHEN she gets it! If she goes ape, I tell her sorry, at some point in your life you will realize how truely ill you are and then have to seek help. Fortunalty, you have a devoted husband that still cares for you, but he cannot force you to do what's right. But will I still be there when your ready? I don't know. But I do know it's just a matter of time before she totaly self destructs. I've got to make her realize that I'm on the road to recovery already, by being here. She's got a lot further to go than me and hasn't even started yet.

She can work with me by starting the day I decide to tell her, or she can take her chances that I'll still be willing WHEN she comes back. If she chooses to continue the same path, I expose like you've never seen. Before her furior, I'll let her know that because of her decission to disredard me, I must cut all contact with her, phone, email, text, ect. When she's ready to get help for her issues and truly work on our marriage, hopefully for her, I'll still be willing, but who knows?

I'm starting to doze off at the keyboard, so good night and thanks again so much. I don't know how I'd of made it without you guys. Just as the flight attendant tells you in the airplane, if traveling with a child, put YOUR oxygen mask on first, then your childs. It may not work the other way around!!!! It does feel good to be in control!

Fooled~

Can you afford to call the Harleys? I REALLY think that you need to do this and could benefit immensely from it...what do you think?

Mrs. Wondering

fooled, I'm so sorry to read what you're going through. I've read through your thread and strongly agree with the Wonderings. I worked for years as a psychiatric nurse and the information they've given you about bipolar disorder is 100% accurate. I have nothing to add to the advice they've given except to say, if you haven't already done so, I'd copy it out and reread it frequently!

The only other piece of advice I'd add is based on how much I relate to your story from my own personal experience. My WH is an addict/alcoholic who, I believe has many bipolar traits. He hasn't been diagnosed, in fact rages at the notion that he has any problem at all, but his sister has been diagnosed bipolar but refuses to acknowledge the diagnosis, and also has substance abuse issues. His mother, who died last week of Alzheimer's also had some bipolar traits.

My WH is very charismatic with infectious enthusiasm that draws people to him. But living with him was like being caught in a tornado of lies, multiple addictions, multiple affairs, and mood swings. I too was fooled often and felt like a fool.

The advice I have has to do with you. Why have you chosen first an alcoholic and then a (probably) bipolar woman to marry? I ask because I had to do a lot of serious self-examination myself in order to begin healing, including IC and regular attendance at Al-Anon because of WH's alcoholism/addiction. I'm not telling you to divorce your wife. I'm suggesting you get some personal counselling/coaching to look at your own attraction to seriously disturbed women, just like I had to look at my own attraction to seriously disturbed men (WH wasn't the first alcoholic in my life) and to learn what your boundaries are.

My H has been gone for almost 5 years. I tried to recover our marriage for about 1 1/2 years before ending contact. During that time, we attended a marriage workshop - not Retrouvaille, though - while we were separated and he was lying to me that he'd ended relationship with MOW when in fact they were living together! Clearly the weekend did not save our marriage!

Before I ended contact, my WH loved me one minute and hated me the next and lied to me constantly... He threw me and the kids out and moved MOW in, then threw a "kegger" party for a group of teens (he was 47 years old!) and had a non-stop party for several weeks until I filed for divorce and got a restraining order allowing me and the kids back into the house... He broke into the house 4 times, kicked in the door, threw tomatoes all over the kitchen, tore a door off it's hinges, threw stuff everywhere, etc... he threatened suicide and was taken in for psychiatric evaluation but convinced the professionals he was ok... he rolled his car with a blood alcohol of 0.28 and was airlifted to a trauma center where he was strapped on a guerney in the ER for 5 days because his behavior was too erratic to admit him to a regular medical bed...

Since I completely ended contact, he's lost his driver's license and his professional license... his son, my DSS, committed suicide (also a victim of the disease?)... he slashed his wrists and was hospitalized for 3 days... he hasn't worked in 5 years while I've supported him by running our business (which used to mean so much to him) alone... his life is a constant "party" according to his neighbors with kids about his son's age, including MOW... he broke down crying in front of my lawyer and me, telling me he still loves me... he took me to court, then sat in his car ini the parking lot during the hearing, and when I came out "someone" had "keyed" the whole left side of my car...

Get the picture? Don't you think to yourself, "Why the heck did you stay with him so long?" I don't believe in divorce either and WH is an intelligent and charismatic man with a chameleon-like ability to be everything you want him to be, whoever you are. But, even Steve Harley recommended divorce after speaking to and listening to my WH scream obscene verbal abuse at me in the background during one of our calls. On other calls, of course, he was his reasonable, charming self, only concerned about all the ways I hadn't met his EN's that MOW was meeting so well.

I'm a breast cancer survivor and I, too, felt the affects of continued contact on my health. As I said, I'm supporting him (court ordered) so I'm also feeling the financial effects (though his version is I "stole" everything from him).

Bottom line, get help for YOURSELF. In Al-Anon, we use the analogy of the stewardess' instructions to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before trying to help anyone else. I think that analogy applies in your situation as well.

Good Morning!

Wow, what a day yesterday!

I've got so much I want to say and follow up to from yesterday but have a couple of business matters to handle, so it's going to be later this afternoon before I can elaborate.

Thanks so much Wonderings, and everyone else for all your support in my time of crisis. Good nights sleep = fresh head and outlook!

Spoke with W late last night and brought up OM3. Was very carefull to handle it delicate, with NO ANGER whatsoever! All positive. That's what she says she cant stand is my reaction!! We'll as it turns out, that seems to be just another one of her twisted Fantacies I now know and reffer to as "DLand"! Her name begins with D.

I feel like I was hit with a ton of bricks last night in regards to "reality". It all makes so much sense to me now and I cant wait to tell more! It's obvious that DLand is not a good place for my WS to be, although I doubt she'll ever check out. Classic, textbook BP. I also read a while back about "Narccistic Personality Disorder (sp)", which I believe describes her about as well.

Needless to say, she's taken none of this "Retro" weekend or anything else regarding our marriage counseling seriously, referring to the fact all contact with OM must be cut of prior to attending with, "well, you just asked me if I wanted to go, and I said yes?" Lying, deception, and self-centered, self-interest behavoir is all I really believe she's capable of, and likely ever will be until checking out of DLand! "Nothing wrong with her, it's everyone else who's crazy, and I'm on the
top of the list"! - The first road sign you see when entering DLand!

I can't wait to get back and write some more, but I've got a couple pressing issues I've got to handle first!

Thanks again so much for you help! I don't feel that I'm going crazy anymore!

"I'll be back" - Arnold S!

Later this afternoon!

Fooled

Fooled~

So glad you are getting some clarity here...

I wanted to tell you something that my counselor explained to me that provided me with much needed insight regarding the way that people that have Bipolar Disorder view the world and those in it...

First, they are like children when it comes to impulse control...they only see things that are right here and now, as in...only what's right in front of their face at the time...they don't think ahead, so, say that they see a fur coat that they want for example, they look in their wallet, and there is the money and they immediately take it out and buy the coat without regard for any other financial responsibility that they may have...they don't even begin to think, "Wait, now this is the money that I am suppose to use for my mortgage, my car, groceries, bills, etc..."....NOOOOO...they DO NOT think ahead at all...ABOUT ANYTHING...like a two year old that eats candy before dinner...it's just how they operate. Here's what may help you to understand her...it's hard to hear and grasp, but Oh so true...YOU DO NOT EXIST TO HER UNLESS YOU ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER OR IF SHE DECIDES FOR WHATEVER REASON THAT SHE WANTS YOU TO DO SOMETHING FOR HER!...please read that, and internalize it, it will help you so much...it's not that she does this on purpose, it's just how her brain works...the world is only real to her when she chooses, and then that reality is one of her own creation...knowing that about my dad really helped me to understand that he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt all of us...I hope that it may offer you some comfort...

Look forward to hearing from you later today...glad that you got some much needed rest, keep taking care of you!

Mrs. Wondering

Hey Mrs. Wondering,

Thanks for that recent input. I think I had come to pretty much the same conclusion on most of it, but your input certainly helps confirm it!

I was told a while back that sometimes children that go through a traumatic event (WS loosing her mother to breast cancer after a long battle at age 11), can actually cause them to remain emotionally “stuck” in that age. Or, perhaps that’s what triggered her Bipolar state. WS acting like a child is certainly been the biggest problem I’ve faced. It’s so ironic because I went by to see Mom today and we discussed the same thing about WS only being able to focus on “right now”. It’s so true! She in no way deals with anything except the present. It’s only right now and how that benefits her at the time. Any decisions we’ve made concerning the future, and most events that are in the past have no meaning to her, unless it’s something she blames me for of course. We’ve made so many commitments to each other about things we would do to help our R, but her commitments are literally forgotten within hours. If I remind her of them she’ll deny having made them! It makes me CRAZY!

I don’t know if that makes me feel better or worse that she only thinks of me when I’m right in front of her or if she wants something, but it sure seems true! I had several red flags prior to getting married that really concerned me. Mainly the inconsiderate acts she could do to anyone without any regards! It’s like she didn’t even know! Most people when felt let down by someone won’t think a whole lot about it, but when it’s your spouse that’s a whole different deal.

One of the biggest things I should have paid more attention to was before we were married, one of her best friends since childhood, had a fiancé who jumped off a 6 story parking garage committing suicide. Obviously, her friend was devastated. She asked that WS just be with her the day of the funeral and be with her during it. My WS said, “of course”. The day of the funeral, I reminded her she would be late if she didn’t hurry, and her response to me was “I don’t feel like going”. I pleaded with her to be with her friend at this time of crisis, but she didn’t. She left a voice mail saying she was sick. They never spoke again and it never seemed to bother her.

I should have paid so much more attention to that.

There's much more I want to say, but I’ve got to leave for a few minutes.

Thanks again so much for all your support.

Oh, BTW, I sent my mother a link to this thread and she’s been reading it. She thinks it’s great support. I’ve encouraged her to keep reading, but I don’t think she’ll ever leave a post. Not to comfortable with technology you see. She also told me today that WS once asked her if there was any mental illness that ran in OUR family, because I had been acting mad, which I’m sure I was. My mom said, well no, could it be something your doing? WS said, oh no!

I never said anything because I didn’t think it was relevant, but WS has a bachelor’s degree in Psychology. That and a good vo-tech associate’s degree will get you a good job. Since she doesn’t have the vo-tech, that’s why she’s worked in call centers in the telecommunications industry. No offense to any grads with a BS/BA in Psycology. You really have to get a masters before you can do anything in that field.

More soon!

Dear LetStry,

Thanks for responding. All this support has been more help to me that anyone could ever know.

Why the attraction to emotionally disturbed women?

In the case of first W, it was really a poor choice on my part to get married. I knew of all her issues, but did it anyway. Pressure from her and her parents pushed me some. I was not very religious back then, so I didn’t take the vows thing so seriously. Shows what our culture’s teaching us. She spiraled out of control even worse after our D and so did the guy she ran off with. Several physical assult arrests and DUI’s. She used to attack me physically, and that was very hard to deal with. When you’re a guy, you can’t even defend yourself or you’ll likely get arrested. All I could do was get in the car and leave. I’ve recently heard that she’s been in recovery several years, has re-married, and is doing great. I don’t know how credible the source, but I hope that’s the case.

In the case of current WS, I never had any idea she was emotionally disturbed, prior to our marriage. Keep in mind, what I’ve known in the past about Psychology would fit on a pencil eraser. Every thing I’ve ever learned has come from trying to seek help or figure out my current WS. Her hormones are so “out of whack” it’s crazy! We’ve been to 4 endocrinologist’s, 2 reproductive endocrinologist’s, and a crooked invetrofurtilization (sp?) doctor. No one could figure it out. Her cortisal levels are very low, which is your hormone used to deal with stress. (I’m not saying this as if you don’t know that, but rather to “show off” my new intelligence!) Her testosterone levels are about 4-5 times higher than normal. That one really bothers her because it’s causing her hair to thin out quite a bit. She’s very vain and almost obsessed with her looks. With 40 right around the corner, she’s going to have a harder and harder time running around with all her late 20’s crowd, wearing the mid-drift clothes, and low waist jeans. She still pulls it off pretty good, but it’s getting more difficult. Her 17 hydroxy progesterone levels are weird, and many other things. They really can’t figure it out. OH, ONE BIG THING, she also has “polysitic ovarian syndrome”. I think that’s the correct phrase. I’ve read a lot about the relationship to that and depression or bipolar. I knew that the chemical imbalance fueled the mental imbalance and vice versa. I always thought that if we could get her hormone levels right, her mental state would improve a lot! It never happened. She’s very impatient. If anything’s too difficult, she won’t do it. The first 3 docs were for infertility. As I’ve mentioned before, she’s wanted so desperately to have kids, but has been told now that it’s likely impossible. That’s probably a real good thing. It devastated her, after the last failed invetro, and our marriage really went down hill after that. The 4 other docs, were all in an effort to get her emotionally more stable, by fixing her hormones. I went to most every one of her appointments with her because I so desperately wanted to see her better. She wouldn’t stay on the same treatments long enough to see if they really helped.

When she’s sweet, she’s sweet as can be. She can turn evil on a dime. When we dated (almost a year before getting married), I never saw any mental instability in her. She seemed so normal. Looking back, I can see a lot of signs that should have caused concern, but I didn’t know what to look for then. She loved how I “took care” of her, and asked if I always would, I said yes, I love taking care of you. Of course, you can’t really take care of someone her age. She ultimately has to take care of herself, or not.

Anyway, I can assure you my attraction to them is not because they’re emotionally disturbed. Unless it’s some sub-conscious thing. What do you think that says about me?

I’ve heard great things about Al-anon. Our pastor at our church suggested it for me when he learned of her/our sit. Incredibly, his wife has some very severe issues almost identical to my WS. He confided that to me because of what I was going through. Are sits were very similar. His wife has an addiction to klonopin, as I believe my WS does. The congregation all knew his wife was ill, and couldn’t attend a lot, but no one really knew why. He’s said Al-anon has been such a big help for him. As I understand, it’s support for spouses / relatives with chemical dependency, right. Since I really don’t hold out much hope with my WS, is there any reason to go?

More to come.

Fooled.

The reason to go to Al-Anon is for yourself. I haven't had contact with my WH for over 3 years and I've probably gotten more out of Al-Anon during that time than I did when I was dealing with his chaos daily.

I don't mean to imply there's something wrong with you or that you like the chaos. I hate when people say about someone with an abusive (verbally or physically) spouse that they must enjoy it if they don't leave or they would never put up with it. As you know, it's much more complicated once you're in the relationship and you love the good in the person not the craziness, chaos, and abuse.

But, sometimes we don't have the right radar to detect chaos, usually because of childhood experience. We aren't good at establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries. We need to feel needed, or at least feel comfortable in the caretaker role. We tend to look for love from people who aren't able to give it, or have difficulty giving it.

This may not apply to you. It may just be coincidence. I was a psych nurse when I met my WH (he was also a psych nurse) so I can't use the excuse of not knowing enough. Living with an alcoholic, addict, or mentally ill person is extremely stressful and sometimes the things that seem reasonable - and would be reasonable if dealing with someone with say, diabetes, cancer, or heart disease - can actually make matters worse. Sometimes it's just a situation in which doing what feels right is wrong and doing the right thing feels wrong. It's similar to dealing with infidelity. That's where Al-Anon can be helpful.

Fooled~

Some really stellar advice from LetSTry, you'd be wise to listen to her...those of us who have lived this stuff really have to stick together.

Until my H, every single person that I dated was very dysfunctional...my brother is now in the process of a D after only two years of marriage based on his choice of an equally dysfunctional W...As I understand it, this is pretty standard stuff for folks that grew up with dysfunctionality of some sort...it is by God's grace alone that I married someone from a very stable background...Lord knows based on what I've done to my H I really don't deserve him...it is that same grace from above that has given me a chance to right what I have done wrong. Luz, I am not trying to imply that you came from an unstable home...however, I do think that, given your history, you may quite possibly benefit from exploring what it is about your personality that causes you to choose people that "need saving".

I think that Al-Anon is a wonderful program. I believe that I was, indeed, benefited by even the short time that I spent in Alateen during my youth. Al-Anon, combined with individual counseling, could definitely provide you with the kind of support that you need in your life right now.

Fooled...how are you today? What's going on? You remain in my thoughts and prayers...

Mrs. Wondering

Fooled,
Based on your posts here about your situation, you will probably get a better feedback, reaction and use of your money counseling with the Harley's instead of going to Retrouvaille ...

An analogy of a Poker Player….

Any poker players reading may understand the following analogy. I’m sure you’ll get it, even if your not.

Prior to meeting my WS, I’d been sitting at the poker table for so long, and being dealt bad hand after bad hand. Then, when we met and fell in love, I felt as though I’d been dealt pocket aces, the best two cards to have in Texas Holdem Poker, so I bet a lot! Money, time, emotion, feelings, ect.

Then came the flop. Oh no, it was nine, ten, jack. I decided not to bet (check) because this reduced my chances of winning significantly. However, another player bet a bunch. He likely had a straight! -A good poker player would have folded right here- But I looked back down at my hand and thought, “This is still a great hand, I could still win with this hand, I believed in my hand”. So I called his bet. *More money, some pain, isolation of friends, ect*.

Then came the turn, it was a king. I looked down and realized I was on a straight draw, and I would have the high straight, all I needed was a queen. I saw renewed hope. Realizing I need one important card still, I didn’t bet (checked). But once again, I was raised by another player. -A good poker player would never call this raise because you’re “betting on the come”. That means you need one specific card out of a possible 13 cards to win. The odds are just too great- But it was a small raise so I decided to take my chances, I called the bet. *More money, more pain, loss of opportunity, and some health*. Well the next player raised the initial bet so I had to match it (call) to stay in. I looked down at my chips and thought, wow, I’ve got a lot invested in this pot, and I hate to fold and loose it all. If I get a queen, I’ll have the nuts (best, unbeatable hand). Another ace would give me a good hand as well, so I called his raise, hoping to get lucky. *More money, betrayal by friends, enduring infidelity, ect. DID I GET THE QUEEN?

Then comes the turn, Oh no, THERE WAS ANOTHER KING. NOW TOO MANY KINGS WERE IN THE PICTURE. This made my hand virtually worthless. Anyone holding a king would beat me, and any one with a queen would have a straight and beat me. I looked at my chips and realized I had over half my stack in this pot. I couldn’t believe how much I’d had invested into what turned out to be this really bad hand. But I did it on the unlikely hopes/chances I’D GET THE QUEEN, BUT I DIDN’T. I was desperate. I knew I was in good position, I was the last one to bet, but my hand was still awful. I thought to my self, if everyone else checks, I could bluff and steal this pot with a decent size bet, hoping no one would call and I’d win. EVEN THOUGH I NEW I DIDN’T HAVE THE QUEEN I NEEDED, WHAT I DID HAVE COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE, AND I WAS WILLING TO TRY AND WIN WITH IT. Sure enough everyone else checked. I bet most all of what I had left hoping everyone else would fold. *More money, a lot of health, more isolation of friends, more betrayal, more infidelity, and even some bad habits.* Everyone folded except for the guy on my right, he not only called, he also raised me by what I had left, which wasn’t much. Was he bluffing hoping I would fold? I realized I had got myself into the worst situation any poker player could be in. If I didn’t call his bet and go all in with what little I had left, I would certainly loose all I had invested. The choices I had were this- bet what little I had left, knowing my chances of winning with this “less than marginal hand” were almost nil. Or, I could fold to play another hand, but I would play that next hand having almost nothing left. I would have to win so many more hands to make up what I’d lost, it almost seemed impossible. The thought of starting over from scratch, this late in the game and with what little I had left, was a very depressing thought. What do I do?

This is the position I’ve found myself in for so long. I just kept getting deeper and deeper into it, and now I’ve got virtually nothing left. Most all my friends are gone, my health is worse, I’ve lost so many opportunities, sold my house I loved prior to marriage which was over half paid for, and I’m very near broke with POS car, and marginal credit.

I did all this because I believed in my hand. It looked so promising at first. I believed it when she used to tell me, it didn’t matter where we lived, even a tent on the river would be fine as long as we’re together. Well, after buying and selling 3 houses in five years, moving 5 times, all because they weren’t right to her, I don’t think she meant that either.

Well, just as I’m not a professional poker player, I’m not a relationship professional either. It would have been easy to avoid either one of these scenarios if I had been.

I hope this analogy helps anyone reading to understand how I feel, and the thought of folding with so much invested.

I’ve had this analogy in my head for so long, and I’ve been wanting to write it, so I did?

I’ll write more later on. Thanks again for everyone’s support.

Fooled99

Hey Wonderings,

I just read your post after posting the one above. I hope it's not too silly. It really helps me to relate to my sit.

I'm doing well today. Some good business developments look very promising and lucrative.

Yes, I believe Retro would be a waste of money and that money would be better spent trying to help myself. I'm going to look into it and Dr. Harley’s help

I'm wish I had more time to respond. I'm hoping to get some advice on where best to turn now to help myself recover. I'll write more about that later. It's been a very busy, but good day today! But because of how much everyone here has helped me, I wanted to drop a quick update. I couldn't put a price on how much this forum has helped me and I'll be eternally grateful for it. My hope is that someday I can help someone else here in the same way I've been helped. Pass it on!!!

Thanks again, I'll be sure to write more later.

Fooled.

WS called me late last tonight. I didn’t answer the phone (avoiding all contact). I did check her message about 45 minutes later and heard her crying almost hysterically, talking in an unintelligible manner. I felt I had to call back.

She seemed like she was going to do something desperate. She’s been staying at Bro and Sis’s house since we separated, and said they were being mean to her. Well. I know from past experience, when you don’t validate her irrational behavior, your being mean. I’ve been mean for a long time under the same guise.

I called her back and she was still crying so hard I could barely understand her. She said she was sitting in the driveway in her car with nowhere to go, and didn’t want to go on anymore. When she first called she wanted to know if she could come over to our house and spend the night, but now she didn’t want to. I asked what was wrong. She had seemed fine the day before. Once again her response was “everything”. I said, “If you want to tell me then I’ll listen, but “everything” means nothing to me”.

Long story short, this went on for a couple hours. I told her she needed to get help and I would take her to the Crisis Center. At first she wanted to go, but as usual changed her mind in the next 10 minutes. She called later and said she was at the Church we attend and got married, right around the corner from Bro and Sis’s house. She was crying because no one was there. I said “there’s never anyone there at 12:30AM”. She checked to see if the doors were unlocked, I don’t know why?

Later, she called me from Bro and Sis’s telling me not to worry, she was in bed and going to sleep. But the way she said it implies sleep or perhaps suicide. I asked how many Klonopins she’d taken. She kept saying I don’t know. I finally figured from what she had said it was about eight, which doesn’t concern me a lot, I’ve seen her take more than that. They are the small ones, .5mgs. I take them when I fly because it scares me to death, but I only fly about twice a year. I’ve had as many as 5 and just get drowsy and usually sleep, which I’ve never done before on an airplane. I kept her on the phone for quite some time to make sure she stayed awake which she did. I told her if she didn’t do this I’d call an ambulance. She didn’t want that as it’s happened before. Sis called before we even met when she was concerned of the same thing. She spent two nights in hospital that time.

After she calmed down, she text messaged asked if I would visit her if she checked herself into the hospital. I said I wasn’t sure, it depended on the situation. I’d made a promise to take care of myself as well. She said that she wouldn’t be going then. I told her she needed to do this regardless of me, but I would help however I could. I also told her that I’ve been told, and I agree, I should have no contact with her as long as her affairs continue because it’s killing me. That was our last conversation.

I know I may have sounded harsh, but her talk of suicide has gone on for years, and that's all it's been, talk. I take her more seriously than anyone in her family, but they've heard it much longer than me. I know without a doubt there is an element of "getting attention" to her threats. It does get my attention!

What's to make of her behavior?

Fooled

Hey Wonderings & LetStry,

My WS says she really wants to get help for her BP disorder. Of course, that’s subject to change at any time.

She asked if I knew where she could get help. I said I thought so, but really have no idea.

Anyone have any advice on how to find a good Psychiatrist? What to look for? What questions to ask, ect. I’m saying Psychiatrist because they’re the only ones who can prescribe the meds she needs. I don’t want to involve her Cousin Psychiatrist. If anyone cares to send me a personal message, I’ll tell where I live.

I’m addressing this to the Wonderings because of their long battle with this same disorder, and LetStry, because of being a psyc nurse, but anyone else with advice would be appreciated. I know how crucial the Therapist can be. An incompetent one can do more harm than good.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Fooled.

Fooled~

Please contact me www.the_wonderings@yahoo.com and let me know where you live...my dad is currently part of a medical study with an amazing psychiatrist...even if he's not in your area, he is an expert in the field and might have a good reference...I'm going to try and call my dad and get the doctor's number in just a bit...

I also have other stuff to write to you...I haven't forgotten about you...I've just been busy...I'm going to try and post to you sometime today...

Hang in there...

Mrs. Wondering

Well I’ve got to tell you that I did come from a dysfunctional family, NO FAULT OF MY MOM. My father decided to leave us for OM, yes you heard right! This was when I was about 12 years old. I’ve only discussed this with about 4 or 5 people in my whole life.

He was insistent on letting his choices of life be known openly. This was difficult for me because I never new the reason they divorced. He had contact through visitation with us. We stayed with him on the weekends, and his lifestyle. A lot of my friends made fun of him and probably me behind my back. I was the oldest son with a brother 1 year younger, and a sister 4 years older. For my Sis, I don’t think this was a big issue, but for me it was somewhat devastating and very embarrassing. Male thing you see.

Perhaps I should have been told the truth from the beginning, I don’t know. It was my Moms desire that we weren’t told, and that caused me to have to figure it out myself. Although I suspected, that didn’t happen until I was about 19 years old. I tried to shield my younger brother from the ridiculement of friends by making excuses for the way my Father was. I IN NO WAY BLAME MY MOM FOR THE DIFFICULT DECISSION SHE HAD TO MAKE. I think under the same circumstances, I would have done the exact same thing. She was trying to make the best of a horrible situation.

I haven’t had contact with him in 20 years. My Sis had contact up until her first child was born and he insisted on not being indiscrete regarding his lifestyle when visiting. Her oldest is a son. My Sis and her husband drew the line there. They said, no way. So Sis hasn’t had contact with him for over 16 years.

My younger brother is the only one who still has contact. I hope to think it’s because of my efforts to take the brunt of the humiliation, but who knows?

I’ve been told by counselors and another Pastor that I need to confront these issues with him. I don’t know. He’s getting very old, and now lives 1500 miles away. I saw him at my brother’s wedding about 3 years ago, but we did not speak. Sis was horrified he would approach her and the kids would ask about him. I told her I’d make it very, very clear to him not to approach them if she would like.

In the end it all seemed to work out ok.

My Sis and her husband are VERY successful. They’re both attorneys although she only practiced for about 1 ½ years, and then quit to have kids.

My brother has built a very successful business that I’m so proud of him for doing. They both enjoy very good lifestyles. Now I feel like the failure.

I hope this better explains my dysfunctional upbringing. Oh, btw, Mom says when they attended counseling prior to divorce; counselor told her he had severe Narcissistic Personally Disorder. Much like my WS, everything was always about him!

Oh, and another thing about that.

My mom and WS, used to talk a lot as they would spend time together. Mom used to tell WS about her WS (my father). She said how outraged he would get sometimes. I suppose I do have an angry streak in me, but it only comes out when I’m really pushed. A good friend of mine said once that “you’re the nicest guy in the world until you’re forced into a corner, then you come out fighting.”

Anyway, upon hearing this info from my mom, and knowing the relationship between my father and me, WS couldn’t wait to use that to her advantage. Anytime we got into a heated argument, she would call me by my father’s first name. She’s never even met him.

I rarely get angry except when it’s emotional. The only thing that I’m real emotional about is WS. In business situations I deal with conflict all the time. I’ve always had a cool head and never lost my temper, not even once. When I see other’s doing it I remind them how unproductive it is. The only thing I really get angry at WS about is her disregard for our marriage, ie: affairs. I know I should take my own advice as far as that’s concerned too, but it’s difficult.

I am somewhat to very hard of hearing. Too many rock concerts when I was younger I suppose. This causes me to talk loud. Also, when I was young, they couldn’t hear me in class, so I was forced to stand in another room and speak load enough to where I could be heard. It worked! Those too things combined cause me to talk very loud sometimes, and I don’t even realize it. People sometimes mistake that for yelling, which it’s not. But I can see their confusion. WS says she can’t stand my yelling, but most of the time, I’m not. In a passionate discussion I can see how someone would make that mistake. She says, it’s abusive to yell. I remind her that our Pastor “yells” at us every Sunday! Pastors always raise their tone to make a dramatic effect. I don’t consider it abuse.


Fooled.

Her behavior sounds quite typical of a person with Bipolar Disorder...really nothing very out of the ordinary at all. Bipolars really love an audience, and will do almost anything to capture, ahem, captivate one.

The suicide threats are a real downer, I know...on one hand, you want to take them seriously, as bipolars are highly susceptible to taking their own lives, but on the other hand, because of their need to have all attention focused on them, they often use this as a rouse to suck people in to their drama...such a catch-22.

I believe the best possible help that you can offer someone like this is to have them invountarily commited...you would have to check on what it takes to do this in your state...Many people find this a very difficult step to take, but it actually is a very caring approach (the bipolar, of course, will not see it this way). "Tough love" is healthiest for both the affected person AND the family. You cannot, nor should you be forced to be on "suicide watch" 24 hours a day...leave that to the professionals.

Another thing that you should consider, is the effect of the Klonipin. That drug, as well as others in it's class, makes people extremely emotional. Some of her crying can be taken with a grain of salt because of this. Klonipin, however, is a very powerful drug, and it would concern me that she is taking it in excess, especially while driving. I understand that she has taken more than she had that night in the past, but you honestly can't be sure how many that she had taken...I guarantee you that she couldn't really remember herself...this drug is very dangerous in this way, because it does cause memory loss, especially among those who take overdoses of it (I know that you think that .5mg is a small dose, but the highest dosage that they make is only 2mg...read up on Klonipin, what you discover will quite possibly scare you senseless). By the way, the next time that she behaves in this manner, you should call an ambulance, because (1)You really never know when she has ingested a lethal dose, and (2)Once she's in the hospital regarding a possible overdose of meds by a bipolar who has been talking suicide, the attending physician may very well make the call to involuntarily commit her, which I promise you is easier than you trying to do that yourself...

Fooled, you made reference to your behavior towards her sounding harsh...NO, IT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT!!! You are NEVER suppose to sacifice your own well being for that of someone who is mentally ill and refusing to get help...as sad as the life of someone like that may seem, there is absolutely NOTHING that you can do to make them get help...what they say in Al-Anon also applies to mental illness, "You didn't cause it, you can't change it and you can't cure it".

Something that my counselor said to me in a session one day, really helped me a great deal...She said, "If God can't change the circumstances for a mentally ill person who refuses to get treatment, how can you?"(yes, I know that God actually does have the power to do that and could, but we aren't puppets for Him and He helps thoae who help themselves)...That really put my situation into a perspective that I could grasp...hope it does the same for you...

Fooled, I am praying for God to guide you through this turmoil and give you clarity about what He wants you to do...I want you to see how very much He loves you and how important that your safeguarding your well being is to Him...

Love In Christ,

Mrs. Wondering

Fooled, I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through. Dealing with a mentally ill person is very much like dealing with an addict/alcoholic, which your WW may be as well. I think the similarity is the same tendency toward denial of their illness as well as the impossibility of anyone else helping them if they don't first decide for themselves they want help. Involuntary commitment might work, but in my state, people can't be held against their will unless they can be proved to be an imminent danger to themselves or others or gravely disabled, which means they can't provide or know how to obtain food, clothing or shelter.

Since your problems involve more than just the addiction, you might not feel comfortable in Al-Anon, but I think you need to get help for yourself - individual counselling and/or a support group. Maybe The Wonderings know of a support group for families of people with mental illnesses.

I like support groups because it's so comforting to talk to other people who've shared similar experiences and you can trust they know what you're talking about. There are other people who have successfully handled similar situations to show us the way and we can then show others in turn. I like 12-step programs because of their reliance on a higher power/God of our personal understanding.

You've described some of your own issues from your childhood and how these continue to affect you today. You learned early to take care of and protect others from what you perceived as harmful. I suspect these issues have drawn you, unknowingly, toward spouses who take advantage of your desire to help and protect. Maybe they choose you because they see this in you, rather than you picking them because of their neediness.

The suicide threats are very manipulative, but as you know, and as the Wonderings pointed out as well, people with BPD are at high risk for carrying out their threats.

UPDATE:

WS called early this morning and wants me to take her to the Psychiatric Hospital here in town this afternoon.

Her Cousin ER Doctor, friend of mine wants me to place an offer for him on a $500K home he and his wife have been looking at, BIG MONEY! I told him she wants me to take her to Psyc hospital, and it would have to be later. He said, "why can't she drive herself?" I think he's used to the drama.

I told her I would but if I get over there and she changes her mind, I'm going to be very angry because I'm very busy. She says she understands and wants me to take her. She must really be serious!

Oh Fooled, I so hope that she is serious...I really have my fingers crossed for you about this...My father led us on so many "wild goose chases" regarding hospitalizations and doctor's appts, and I so don't want you to have to endure that...Many times women are quicker to accept help/meds. than men are, and I am praying that this is the case where your wife is concerned...you've had enough "Dland" for now! Please keep us posted...

Mrs. Wondering

Well, she did it!

WS asked I take her to the Psychiatric Hospital this evening. I did! We first went to hospital-A, but when almost there WS said it was the hospital on the other side of town!!! She wasn’t stalling, she really wanted to go. She became so confused as to which one it was that she started crying that she couldn’t handle it. I looked and she had several actually.

Well, when we arrived I realized her insurance would allow her to go to any, since you’re being admitted through the emergency room. WS cousin Psychiatrist’s, best friend, also a good friend of mine is the Chief of Staff of the Psychiatric department at hospital-B. This is the same hospital WS cousin ER Doctor is at. I called Psychiatrist friend and asked him if it wouldn’t be better to go to hospital-B. I had to leave a message on his mobile though. He’s aware of the sit between WS and me. In the meantime I called cousin ER doctor and asked if it wouldn’t be better to go to (his) hospital-B as well. He said yes. Then, Psychiatrist friend called me back and I explained the sit., driving the point home of the problem being BP, sighting all I could to prove it.. Since their best friends, Friend Psychiatrist and Cousin Psychiatrist, I’m worried that Friend P would discount BP just like Cousin P. Cousin P has some issues of his own, but friend P does not. Anyway, with all these docs, we get red carpet treatment when we arrived. I was really hoping to keep family out of it, that’s why I didn’t call friend Psychiatrist. He’s much like family.

They take WS into assessment room and talk while I wait. No doc on sight until friend P comes in tomorrow. I insisted on seeing nurse doing evaluation. Made it clear that BP, or perhaps BP & Klonipin where the real issues. I think I did a good job.

Anyway, I don’t know what WS was expecting, but this place was lock down! No cell phone or cigarettes caused WS to ball hysterically. (That pretty much sums up many of her evenings, although I did think she should be able to smoke. Too much stress otherwise, and she smokes like a 67 Buick with a bad set of rings) “I just want to be safe from killing myself, not be treated like a teenager”, she said! She pleaded to go home, but I got her to stay. I later found out that they will likely keep her 3-6 days! No smoking for that long is going to be torture for her in itself!

Well, I’m going to call friend Psychiatrist in the morning and drive the BP & Klonipin home one more time. He’s much more “reasonable” than Cousin Psychiatrist! However, I felt horrible leaving her there!

Well, we’ll see what happens!

Fooled, I usually post over on recovery but wanted to check up on you. WOW! You've been having a wild ride with WW. Just want you to know I'm sending hugs. You are a good man and she's lucky to have you. Hopefully she'll get help and get her sh** together. Don't settle for less! CV

Well, after checking WS into the Psyc hospital last Thursday, she's become somewhat "hostile" towards me, saying the particular hospital she's in is so much worse than the previous one she was in a few years ago. She stated previously she would only go in the first place if I came to visit.

On the first available visit, Friday evening, she became hostile towards me for a lot of ridiculous reasons and said I had been inconsiderate to her. She thinks I knew this hospital would not let her smoke and didn't have the group activities the other one did. I explained as nice as I could that I'm not the one who she or anyone else should look to for a critique of Pshc Hospitals as I've never had experience with any of them.

After about 15 minutes of hearing this nonsense, I said perhaps I shouldn't be there. She stopped for a while then started right back saying how inconsiderate I'd been. I finally said I really didn't want to get into a discussion of "inconsiderate" behavior from either of us (she knew what I was suggesting). That sent her crying back to her room and the nurse said she didn't want to see me.

I told her to call me if she needed anything. She did call the next day to accuse me of calling our mutual friend, "Psychiatrist friend" because she was complaining of not getting Tylonol for her headaches. I assured her I hadn't done that because she requested that I didn't. Turns out it was her sister.

I don't know how this suicide "lock down" is supposed to help other than she may have seen something that there is to really be depressed about. I think after evaluation today, they will let her go home. In the end, I don't know what good this will have done at all except to prevent a suiced attempt while she's there.

I really don't know what to expect when she gets out!

Thanks again for the support and I wanted to give an update as best I could, but will probably have more to say later. Any insight anyone could provide that would help make this stay of hers more productive, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much!

Fooled

Fooled...

There is NOTHING that YOU can do to make HER stay more productive. You are being kind to her and you have supported her attempt at getting help, but that's the most that you can really do when it comes to her hospital stay...only SHE can CHOOSE to help herself...it's out of your hands. YOU can pray and take care of YOU. Start counseling and a support group...in the long run this will help you AND will keep you from becoming or continuing to be her enabler(which will help her in the only real way that you can)...In other words, stop allowing her to control you with her mental illness(i.e. you lose sleep, drop everything to placate her, be her audience while she is behaving irrationally, etc.)...don't make excuses for her...draw a boundary that in order for her to remain married to you she must take and stay on meds...you may even choose to make it a condition of being married to you, that she give you medical power of attorney over her-which would mean if she went off meds, you could have her commited involuntarily(you would need to check with an attorney regarding what the law says about this in your state). Remember, if you choose to stay married to her, you will have to develop some crystal clear personal boundaries in counseling...so, get started on you...

What meds are they currently giving her during her stay? How does she say she feels about taking them? Has she truly admitted that she has a problem, properly identified it and come to "own" her diagnosis?

Mrs. Wondering

I just found out that PDoc is going to keep her longer and take it day by day.

She's been on Effexor & Klonipin for years, which he still has her on. He's going to take her off the Effexor and put her on something else, but isn't sure yet. Nurse will give it to her tonight. He may still have her on Klonipin due to the seizure withdrawals that can happen if stopping it abruptly.

Also, he's had her on something called "Lamictal" (sp). I have no idea if this is how it's spelled, but that's how it sounds. She asked him specifically if any of the medications were used to treat Bipolar disorder, he said NO! They’re to treat depression and anxiety disorder.

I'm so worried he discounts the bipolar issue. I know he's got many diplomas and credentials that I don't, but I'm sorry, HE DOESN'T HAVE TO LIVE WITH HER AND SEE THE REALITY OF IT!

I’ve already left him a message last Friday that couldn’t have been any clearer in regards to her previous diagnosis of bipolar, and what I saw that confirms it from being around her as much as I have. Should I contact him again? I’m afraid if I do it may make him angry, and make me appear to be a “know it all”, when indeed I know nothing other than what I see. But that is a lot!

What do you think??

UPDATE:

Perhaps I was wrong. I just did a search for Lamictal and found the following:

"Difficult Mood Disorder Successfully Treated; Largest Study Proves Effectiveness Of Lamotrigine (Generic for Lamictal) For Rapid Cycling Manic-Depression".

Perhaps he's telling her it's not for bipolar since people being treated for bipolar tend to not take their meds. Who knows? I did tell him I thought she had "rapid cycle" bipolar disorder. We're friends and he thinks highly of me, so perhaps he listned? I don't know?

Update:

My friend, Pdoc, called me today while WW was in his office to give me an update.

He said he is treating her for what he believes is BIPOLAR DISORDER, Halleluiah!

He’s going to make her stay one more day and will likely release her tomorrow, Wednesday. He said he’s going to continue to see her regularly on an outpatient basis.

He is treating her with Lamictal, and I believe also ZYPREXA. I’m not 100% sure of the second because I was driving and couldn’t write it down, but will check for sure.

He’s taken her off Effexor, but thinks she needs to stay on the Klonipin for the time being. The fact he’s diagnosed her with Bipolar Disorder is great news to me.

I think the Lamictal is already taking effect because she sounds out of it when I talk to her. I don’t know if that’s good or bad.

I asked him not to disregard her “manic” episodes even if she claims she doesn’t have any. She’s manic every time she does horrible things to me or anyone else. I mentioned this because what I’ve read about Lamictal, it’s primarily an anti-depressant, which by itself can actually cause manic episodes. I don’t know about the ZYPREXA. I would appreciate any one's feedback with info on these drugs being used to treat bipolar disorder.

Fooled!

Fooled,

I agree with the Wonderings, get yourself into a support group and/or individual counseling. Your psychiatrist friend knows what he's doing. Check out this link: www.psycheducation.org/depression/meds/moodstabilizers.htm. Lamictal is a newer anticonvulsant, used like many other anticonvulsants as a mood stabilizer. Zyprexa is an antipsychotic, which will help to immediately stabilize her moods.

From now on, her treatment is between her and her doctor. In my state, you can't commit anyone involuntarily, only a doctor or other healthcare worker with the necessary authorization can do that. You'll have to find out about the laws in your state. If that's not an option, your only choice is what you want to do and what boundaries you are willing to maintain. This is why a support group and counselling with someone experienced with codependency issues is so important for you. Don't respond to her anger, it's part of her illness.

She's in treatment and that's a huge step forward. Good luck!