I posted this in Just Found Out and it was suggested that I post here too...


For many years my H and I have talked about moving from Australia to Europe. It's always been part of our discussions for the future and it was such great plans.

2005 was a horrible year for me. I was suffering a bully boss and needed a great deal more emotional support than I normally would. H found this too much and started to get more involved in his climbing. He had been planning a 6 week trip with two climbing partners. About mid year the female casual climbing partner became more of a permanent fixture. They would stop for dinner after training and always turn down my offers to cook for them or meet them. They even stopped going climbing with the other guy. Then H would start to tell me about how terrible the OW's BF was - they were clearly talking about relationships together. I was uncomfortable, but every time I mentioned it I was assured that nothing was happening. With the bullying continuing at work, I didn't have the emotional reserve to deal with it so I accepted that.

The the most amazing month occurred. I was offered redundancy at work as they knew I had a good legal case against them. I accepted this. I'd been there 7 years so it's a big deal. But the day before I'd contacted an old friend who said he might have a job going. My last day of work I left early to attend a phone interview. Two days later I had the job - in Europe. I was leaving in 2 weeks. I was concerned for my relationship first and foremost but H was encouraging - it would take us closer to our goal and also be a fabulous opportunity for me and he would follow in May.

So I went. I've been there 3 months and during that time he seems to have become distant. He's never available to chat online and he talks about the books that this woman has given him to read - books he's never shown an interest in before. I've come home for Christmas, knowing that this is the time he's away on the trip. But when I walked into the bedroom of our home here I felt like I had been punched in the stomach. My breath literally left me. It wasn't my room. The top drawer of my bedside unit has been cleared. No photos are up (there weren't any before I left) and it just seems so not me. And why would he need two boxes of condoms beside his bed when I'm not there and we only used them in emergencies? There's a ticket to a show as well that I knew nothing about. The room told me my husband has cheated.

Upstairs there's photos of me, he's arranged for his mum to set up a christmas tree and he's left me a gift. He is usually generous, but the Tiffany's box reaks of guilt.

I'm on my own here, so my mind is wondering. Since I've come home I've asked him to cut his trip short to spend more than the original week together. He got aggresive at the suggestion. He's not always available to answer my calls, I've found poetry talking about blue eyes when mine are brown and emails that are flirty. I also found emails where he told a friend that he didn;t know if he was going to go to Europe or not - and he's avoided the subject since I've been there.

I asked him about the bedroom. He told me to stick up some photos and said "I'm not bringing women over for sex, I'm married to you" but why is the feeling so very very strong? I so want to believe him but I just cannot.

So, he comes back in a week and we'll have four evenings together before I go back to Europe. I don't want to spend that time fighting, but my emotions are crazy. How can I possibly get him to remove this woman (who is 23 to his 38 BTW) from his life when I'm not even there? If I leave Europe to save my marriage I know I'll resent him for it, but if I go and my marriage dies I'll resent myself. Should I throw away my career and dreams to save my other dreams? Compound this with the pressure that a particular medical condition gives me to have a child within 2 years and I'm a shattered woman.

OK, your gut is something you need to follow here. He's cheating and right now he knows that he's been caught. At this moment he will make up anything to cover his tracks and will hope that you will believe everything he says. Classic.



Sorry, but you're the only one that can answer this question. You need to ask yourself one important question... which is more important that you would like to be with in the years to come. A job you can get anywhere, but not a soulmate. Be careful with your choice.


He's hoping that you don't approach him with this, that way he can continue with his double life and assume you won't know anything. He's what we call a "cake eater". Take a look at the "emotional needs" section and see what might be missing in your marriage from his point of view. I think you will find that some are easy to figure out.

Long distance relationships of any kind are difficult to keep alive and that's what you have going on right now. You can get a job anywhere but you can't get a soulmate by filling out an application.

Interesting development today. His mum told me that she'd made a comment about seeing me and that I was doing well but obviously lonely - he responded with I need to be more independent and live my own life to which she said that I'm doing extremely well in the circumstances. That apparently shut him up and he hasn;t responded to her calls since. He also hasn't responded to any of my calls since. He must know he's been found out.

Any tips on how to handle the 4 evenings we will have together so that I can leave him wanting more?

FIRST, before he gets back, start digging. Find out as much solid evidence as you can about his affair & find out as much information you can about the OW. THIS may be your only opportunity to dig into what he's been doing while you're away. It's going to be much harder to do this when you leave. (You must get his friends, coworkers or anyone to confirm the affair for you).

SECOND, once you know as much as possible (confirming the affair), you MUST EXPOSE it to everyone (his family, your family, your friends, the OW's family & friends). Your goal is to break up the affair & make it most uncomfortable for him to continue it.

THEN, when he's back (if you've gotten to expose before he returns), present your evidence, tell him how much he is hurting you, and tell him you will do everything you can to save your marriage and that is why you had to expose it.

Those are the first steps to getting started. Keep asking as many are wise on this site & can help you more then I can. If you don't get lots of posters on this thread, post it again so you can get the answers you need to get everything lined up before he returns.

You probably have to get ready for plan A-ing in your 4 days before you leave. However, I agree that you have consider that you may be making a choice between your husband & your job. Unfortunately, I've never heard anyone at the end of their life say "I'm so glad for that job I had". People are usually greatful for the family they have at the end of their lives as family is the most important. Think about that.

I hope this can help you get started!

read this other thread. It will be helpful to you:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2863391

Well, I saw the OW's BF yesterday. We talked for 3 hours solid. BF has hated WH since they first met (very unlike WH to have enemies). Apparently WH sends multiple SMSs and emails daily and OW has admitted to BF that WH has propositioned her. She's also admitted that on this camping trip they've been staying in 5 star hotels. Apparently WH told OW that he could not sleep in bed or tent on his own because of some psychological problem and silly girl believes him.

I'm so angry! Shows that there have been even more lies since I accused him.

I've written a letter to WH offering him 2 choices. For each choice I've outlined what will happen when he chooses it, what I will expect of him and what the rewards are.

Oh, it's more then that. Your WH probably didn't have to tell OW anything to get her to stay in the hotel with him. That is most likely the lame story she told her BF. And I would bet there is more then a proposition here. It's a full blown A.

You might want to post your letter here & get some thoughts on it. I recommend getting other's opinions before giving him your letter so you don't miss anything. You don't want to do LB's, you know. Please keep posting & I think there are many wise people on the board that can help you get your H away from OW (or give you the keys to you best options).

Again, you have to EXPOSE IT to family, work, friends, etc. If you read the other threads, you have to break up the affair first and exposure will help him get a reality check.

Keep updating....

Here is my "letter". I have trouble keeping my emotions in check, so I plan on presenting him with all of the evidence I have gathered and then giving him this... please help me get this right! I need to fast-track this as I fly out in one week.

The situation now
• You have completely lost my trust and hurt me deeper than you will ever have the capacity to understand
• All of our family and friends currently believe that you are having an affair
• At climbing you are seen as a joke, it is widely accepted that you are having an affair with Kate and you have little respect from the climbing community as a result



Choice 1: Continue
Continue down this path of dishonesty and deception and you can expect to reap what you sow. This will be the easy and, initially, fun option, but where it ends won’t be pretty.

What will happen :
• I will be extremely hurt by your betrayal of my trust
• You will always feel guilt that you have taken so much from me
• I will disclose all that I know to your family, friends and colleagues
• Although they will still love you on one level, you will lose the trust and respect of your family
• You will be completely hated by my family
• Our friends will feel totally betrayed by your dishonesty
• Kate will not respect you, you will lose her friendship
• Your opportunities to work will dry up as your colleagues will view you as untrustworthy
• You will end up with no wife, no friends, no climbing, no respect and perhaps a shred of a career
• Most people will pity you for your stupidity
• You will be viewed as a sleazy old man
• You’ll most likely do the same thing again and again, hurting all your friends along the way

If you make this choice I would like you to consider doing the following
• Pay for my counseling for as long as I need it to recover from this pain
• Sell all of our joint goods as originally planned and send me all of the money so that I can begin the life that we had planned together
• Financially support me so that I may continue to build my life back and so that I can survive as a single mother

Rewards
• No one will care enough to worry who or what you do
• Since your behaviour is very much the same as your father’s you can expect the same result
• You’ll have the knowledge that you threw away the best thing that ever happened to you for the chance to get laid



Choice 2: Make a decision to repair your marriage
If there is to be any hope at all for us as a couple then you need to work harder than you have ever worked in your life to prove to me and to our family and friends that you are committed to our marriage and that you can be trusted. This is the hard choice, but it is the one with the highest rewards.

What will happen :
• I will be extremely hurt by your betrayal of my trust
• I will disclose all that I know to our families so that they may support you in the coming months
• Your family will not be impressed at your actions and will lose respect for you, but they will support you
• My family will distrust you and not respect you and some may hate you, however, some members will provide support
• I will also tell a select group of our friends so that they may provide you with support during this time
• Kate will not respect you, you will lose her friendship

If you make this choice I would like you to consider doing the following
• Decide that you will tell me the whole truth and that you will be totally honest and disclose everything to me from hereon. Never hide anything from me.
• It would help me to believe that you are disclosing everything if you would send me a copy of every email you have sent to or received from Kate that has gone through your work account. I would suggest that you then destroy all emails, poetry and writing to do with her and remove her numbers from your phone
• Given the level of deception involved, I think it would be wise to apologise to Kate for your dishonest, deceptive behaviour. Acknowledge responsibility for any emotional damage you have caused her and for any pain you have caused between her and Cam.
• I would like you to tell Kate that you can nolonger have anything at all to do with her. I would like you to go to whatever lengths are required to ensure that you have no contact with her. This is the only way that I can be sure that the affair is not continuing. It also shows respect for myself and for Kate.
• I would like you to undertake to never do anything that does not have my enthusiastic support. I will do the same for you. Combined with total honesty this should prevent any future issues
• A written apology to me, for all the pain you have caused me, would be appropriate
• Pay for my counseling for as long as I need it to recover from this pain
• I think you should attend counseling yourself to work through your addiction issues and your thoughtlessness and your inability to accept love
• I would like to see some indication that our plans are moving forward, you could sell all of our joint goods as originally planned and arrange to put our personal goods in storage
• I think you should start to wear your wedding ring. If it does not fit you will let me know and I will be only too happy to have another made for you. If you are concerned about safety, you can wear it on a fine chain around your neck (one that would snap in an emergency)
• Booking flights through Dawn so that you can be in Paris for our anniversary to see the Jacques Loussier Trio would be a wonderful guesture
• To show that you mean to follow through, you could book a ticket to Dublin/London for July 1.
• Until you arrive, I would like you to phone me daily to tell me that you love me and you miss me. (Once you arrive you can tell me in person)
• I would be touched if you would read our vows to me regularly
• You can always send me flowers


Rewards:
• My companionship
• My respect
• My trust
• My love
• Trust and respect of your family and friends
• See Europe, experience it’s cultures and opportunities
• Your photography career will have a chance to take off as you will have access to so much more that you can photograph
• Your climbing will improve beyond your wildest dreams with the sheer variety and size of the climbing scene
• Your career will grow to the point where you really can work just 6 months of a year, and fast enough over there that you’ll be in a position to enjoy those 6 months off
• We will buy property in France
• You will have your own family to teach and nurture and protect
• You will retain some dignity
• You will mature emotionally

Whoa! I'm probably the person with least authority here but it seems to me like you covered everything.

Shetats,

The letter is very logical and easy to understand. However we are not dealing with logical people here! See if you can get Melodylanes attention. Your letter is part plan B letter.

Van,

Not to mention that you should not EVER tell your WH that you're going to expose...because he'll do damage contol to make it look like YOU are being crazy here.

I think your letter is pretty good. Realize that he's going to see things that you're not...for example, he's going to be convinced that if he continues and loses you, that he'll STILL have all the benifits you outline...with OW instead of you.

I'd not tell him that you're going to expose until you do so...and at the same time suggest that you continue to get OW's BF aid in putting an end to this...perhaps setup a four way meeting so that both of you can confront the both of them at the same time with the same information??

Additionally, I'd add in to your letter that while you'll still be hurt by his betrayal, that hurt can be overcome by the process of rebuilding your marriage. Don't give him the impression that you'll always hold this over his head for the rest of his life...because that's one more reason (excuse) he'll use for not returning to you.

shetats,
I suggest you start a new thread, copy & paste this one into it & subject it SERIOUS HELP NEEDED NOW - WISE ONES WHERE ARE YOU?!!! You need to get some of the most experiences MBer's to respond here so you have the perfect plan in place.

Also, read this post if you haven't already:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2897726

It's long, but going through something similar with GREAT advice on it.

As for you letter, I think the experts here need a crack at it. Hopefully, you can get them to answer a new thread since they seem to be missing this one.

Oh God I feel so sick to my stomach. He returns from this holiday tomorrow night and we've got my suster's wedding the day afterwards.

I found a credit card entry for a company that I cannot locate in any phone book - a "body works" company. On the same street I know there is a brothel and the amount is about the same, although not quite exactly a match to their price list. Part of me is hoping that there's an innocent explanation for it but my gut is telling me he's been there.

Could it possibly be the stress and strain blowing things up in my head?

Shetats,

Please don't send this letter. It's long, it's complicated, it's making demands and disrespectful judgments. Keep in mind that a hormone-clogged WS has a short attention span. He's not about to create a written apology for an affair he's denying.

And lists of demands are very unappealing. He has an OW on one hand who is yielding and undemanding and sugary -- and a wife who lives far away returning like a vengeful fury. Which would you pick?

There is nothing of love in your letter. It's not surprising -- you are still in shock, and kisses and hugs are probably far from your mind. Alas, they are not far from his, and they aren't your kisses, at this point. There's nothing for him to come back to, except a set of regulations -- at least, in the letter you've written.

I think it's too soon for Plan B -- especially since, thousands of miles away, you're too close to a Plan B anyway. But you should think of the kinds of things that are in a Plan B letter. How about acknowledging your role that the breakdown in the marriage? That the stress of your job contributed to the alienation that led to the affair? That might be an easier way to get him to open up than accusing him and telling him he's "sleazy."

But it's late, and others will have lots more practical to say.

Please don't get me wrong: I'm completely on your side. But I think with this letter you're shooting yourself in the foot.

It's a chain store that sells fancy soaps, shampoos, lotions, candles and the like.

Bath And Body Works

-AD

I can see what you're saying. I'm so stressed because I have such a limited time and I won't be around to remind him that I exist afterwards.

That said, if there's even the remotest possibility that I may end up raising my children on my own then my career is important to me. I know that if I am forced to leave something I am loving to hand-hold him into our relationship that I will resent him for it.

I've read the information on the Plan A and Plan B but I have not found out anything about the letters. Are there any that I can see?

I wish that were the case - unfortunately wrong country and Cromwell Body Works in Smithfield probably refers to something else - Smithfield is an industrial suburb and this street has not a lot in it except some factories and Cromwell Heights, a brothel.

In that case it sounds like auto repair. In the US a "body shop" is the garage that repairs the bent fender and the like. What do they call them there?

WAIT A MINUTE. I missed that - you mean they have legal brothels there?!!
I thought the UK was civilized!

-AD

That was my initial thought, but our car is fine and 98% of businesses in this country are listed in the white pages - this one isn't.

Why would he not tell me he broke our car?

Yes, Australia has legalised brothels. Heavily regulated and controlled. At least it keeps that off the street. I've generally had no problem with them, but I've always said no problem as long as there is honesty in relationships. My problem with them has always been the dishonesty side of most users of them.

There are lots of Plan B letters on this site -- but again, I think it's too early for you to do anything that drastic.

No one's up anymore except insomniacs and West Coasters. I know it's hard, but wait for the morning when others can give you some good advice and experience.

It will be hard to Plan A from Europe. But you can't be the only one in this situation.

Can you take some time from your job for a "family emergency." (This certainly qualifies.)

I take it the OW hasn't broken up with her BF? That's a good sign...

I took time off at the most inappropriate time so that I could come back for my sister's wedding so no chance of more.

No she hasn't broken up with the BF, and she's in very regular contact with him. He says she is extremely naive and she's telling him everything (he has read all her email and there was nothing that she had received from my H that she didn't tell him about - including the poetry he sent her). He thinks she believes that it can be all honest and open.

To tell the truth, the BF is so far out of my H's league it's not funny. He's young, exremely handsome, is studying to be a surgeon, already has a prestigious medical paper published and has just purchased a plane with his dad. My H can not compete. But then that would be likely to just encourage my H to try for the challenge.

Well, that much sounds like good news, anyway.

If you're going to be up for a few more hours, you might want to explore some of the material on this site -- the Harley letters, for example, answering questions. As well as the general material on how affairs begin, etc.

bump

I have to agree with A.M.Martin. I don't think this letter is going to help you. Again, what I posted to do - dig for info on the A - which you have been doing to confirm the A (in which you know poems, etc. at least mean an EA).

Next, you can confront him with your info & tell him how he is hurting you. Tell him you want to work on your marriage & make it better. Tell him you can't work on your marriage with OW involved so he must cut off all contact with her and write a NC letter that you approve. Make sure your tone is loving & nice and truly concerned for saving your M.

If he refuses to meet this (which is likely if he's deep in the fog - maybe study up on fog talk so you are ready), you will have to EXPOSE this A to everyone (his job, his family, your family, your friends, his friends, OW family, OW job). This is your most effective weapon to end the A.

That's where I think you should start. NO letter to him at this point.

But do NOT warn him about exposure or he'll beat you to the punch & tell everyone he's left you & your crazy & your not letting go, etc. He'll make you look bad.

Also, be ready to for him to be really mad when you expose & make all types of threats. It's going to happen, but he'll get over that & you have the chance to save your M.

shetats, I would not give him that letter if you want to save your marriage. It is chock full of lovebusters and demands, which will not help you now.

You are under the illusion that you have some bargaining leverage here, and I don't think you do. Your career move has caused such an enormous RIP in your marriage, that he is completely detached. You have no leverage with a detached person. See what I mean?

It comes down to this very simple truth. Your career has taken precedence over your marriage. You need to decide if you want to continue to sacrifice your marriage for your career, because you are not going to save your marriage if you stay seperated. That is what has led to this, and unless it is resolved, then there is nothing we can do to help you. That is how I see it.

And it sounds like he resents being left alone. He didn't sign up for a long distance marriage. You signed up to be a married partner, though, and are not living up to your committment. I am not saying he is justified in having an affair, but neither are you justified in abandoning your committment to be a wife.

I'm not sure I agree. I have uncovered about 12 months of proof that the A was happening before the move was even a thought. All that time and for many years prior we have discussed together his dreams of us making this move. My career move is NOT the cause of this.

Causes are more to do with recreational EN - I'm not interested in rock climbing at all, I'm petrified of heights and I have tried to be interested, but I freeze up and get so scared. I have tried to introduce other activities and while he initially takes an interest, he quickly decides they're not for him - so I have been trying to meet these needs as I have recognised them for a very long time.

However, last year I was being bullied at work. I needed his support more than ever. He hates needy people, he OW would have looked like fun. So while I grappled with depression and suicidal thoughts, he found something more fun to play with. He got me through talking about our plans to move, then the opportunity arrived, he seemed so excited for us. (or was it for his pending freedom?)

shetats, and maybe the affair was begun before you left. Moving away for your career did not help. Seperations are the kiss of death. We can discuss how it started all day long, but the fact remains the same, it isn't getting resolved as long as you are seperated.

Hey, here I am - why don;t you kick this part, it'll hurt that much more so I'm sure it'll be more satisfying.

How do you explain the fact that the affair was a year old before I left???? How do you explain the fact that he talked about his dreams of moving there and was applying for jobs there in the months leading up to my going and yet the minute I'm on a plane he starts telling family and friends that he's not going? How do you explain the fact that this holiday he's on has been planned for months, supposedly with another person who has told me now that he always thought it would be two weeks, not 6? How do you explain the fact that just before I left I asked him to cut this holiday short a week to spend time with me and he claimed that the other person couldn't do that?

I did not sign up for a long distance marriage. The plan was that he would have most of our stuff sold by now and would be winding up work to come over, not applying for jobs where he is now. He has abandoned me in a totally strange country where I know no-one, where I have no support network.

My move may have been a catalyst in the openess of his deceptive behaviour, but I cannot see it as a CAUSE. Causes generally occur BEFORE an event, not after it.

ok, let's say it didn't CAUSE it. Can we agree that the seperation has only contributed to the problem and will prevent any possibility of resolution?

Want2BStrong's idea of a confrontation, done in good Plan A style, seems like a start. Why don't you begin there?

But, I have to agree with Mel, I don't think this can be wrapped up in a couple days to fit a preexisting timeframe.

Pending other suggestions, why don't you start with confronting him with what you know, and see what you learn from that?

Thank you AM

Melody - yes, the separation is not helping at the moment. I signed a contract based on the promises that he would be moving to join me in May. If those promises had not been made I would not have moved in the first place. Now I'm in a contract filled with huge penalties if I go back on it - all discussed before I signed, with H telling me to sign as he'd be over there before I knew it. Three months later I find he's been having an A for over a year, I feel I have a right to feel abandoned.

He's home in 2.5 hours. I feel worse than ever, maybe it was a bad idea coming here.

I wish I had some advice that could help you deal with your situation. I really don't know what to tell you. I do, however, agree with you were tricked into taking the job, when your H likely had no plans to follow you.

I'm an expat and I know that the usual way that couples move is to send one partner ahead to find a place to live and get established, while the other spouse stays behind and sells the house and gets things ready from that end. If the roles were reversed where your H had gone ahead to the new country to get set up and you'd stayed behind to sell and pack up and you were the wayward spouse, I don't think he'd be hearing this flack. You are not to blame for any of this. Obviously, you two had planned for years to move, as we had. You kept your part of the bargain and took the chance when you got it and he's showing his true colors.

I'm so sorry and I wish things had worked out like you had dreamed. I don't know if you can get through to your H, but making ultimatums is likely not going to get you anywhere. Hopefully, you can rekindle his enthusiasm for the move and point out that you can start a new life, where his baby of an OW will get bored with him and move on, leaving him looking like a fool.

How old are your kids? Can you appeal to him to keep the family together and not be separated by being halfway across the world from each other?

I'm sorry you haven't gotten the support you came here for. I hope others come forward who can give you some decent advice and help. Please let us know how it goes. I'll be hoping for the best for you.

shetats,

I agree with GrownUp. You are not to blame for his A. He likely did trick you into going so he could continue it without worry.

Please give an update & hopefully, you can get some good advice. This is a pro-marriage support group, sometimes people just say what is on their mind without realizing how it may affect the person on the other end. Everyone here wants to help as much as possible.

Please post when you get a chance.

shetats, I don't think it was a bad idea coming here, but I think you have to consider that this will not be resolved if you continue to be seperated. I know that your career is important, but this cannot be resolved long distance or in one short week.

I agree with what AM Martin said, that you should confront him with what you do have and see how he responds. But beyond that, I know of no way to resolve this while seperated, which means you are likely facing some hard choices.