There have been a number of complaints about many threads on this forum where people feel that their opinions are being disrespected. This is troubling to me, because I've always felt that everyone's opinion should be respected.

It has become SO troubling to me of late that I felt the need to post this message to every member of this forum - newbie, lurker, old-timer alike - I don't care how many posts you've made, if this is your very first, or how much you know or do not know about MB, this message is for all of you: RESPECT ONE ANOTHER. If you disagree with someone's opinion, state it politely and without condescension or malice - or do not state it at all.

An opinion (a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty) does not have to be based in fact, nor backed up by any. Opinions are completely subjective. If you think someone's opinion is ridiculous, that's your prerogative, but it is NOT anyone's right to be rude (ill-mannered; discourteous) and/or condescending (to deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner) about it.

***Edited***

And if you are in question about whose opinion counts, remember: MINE is the one that counts [MOST] here.

Tempest Rocks!

That's just your opinion, Tempest... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Er... LowOrbit... hate to say, but an opinion, backed by the power to enforce it... that's called law. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's just my opinion.

Dang, so that's why the trooper keeps writing me tickets for exceeding those speed opinions, eh?

Try telling him: "that's just your opinion, officer!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

*******. Of course, that is just is my opinion....and that of my H, penaltybox. Cheers.

thnaks for expressing the need for all of us to respect each other's opinion. Many times people reply in a manner that seems intolerant. Maybe this will help to remind us all to improve how we relate to each other. thanks again.

I think opinions backed up by facts, figures, examples, and citations from recognized sources have a better chance of influencing others. Just my opinion, of course.

I for one know my opinions dont count....
But I will behave and respect everyone else..
does that mean I cant make a face at the puter screen, too?

wow.

Now if anything here is condecending, that certainly is.
Ok, I'll leave the playground for a while, I need to anyway.
All Blessings,
Jerry

BTW most of us here don't really consider this a playground GoD Bless- Jerry

You are so right Jerry. Most of us come here for MB advice. It's life & death sometimes. I'll take opinion backed up by fact and experience any day over personal attacks and opinions of people with no track record.

Fact, experience, and applying Dr. Harley's principles, bigkahuna. That's the entire purpose of this board, from what I understand. Somehow, it's my opinion that little fact has been lost.

I always thought it was mine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

'nuff said right there. Thanks for the reminder, Tempest.

Well here I come along ... and the blood's already mopped up. What happened?

-AD

Tempest, that is good what you said in your first post.
Very very good. Thanks

Awwwhhhh come on AD, you've seen this B4. A poster or 2 come along, rile up the troops and BAM! A war of words and wit.

Eventually the hose has t/b pulled out and wash away the dirt.

Remember SNL? The fly bys from the TOW board? Every so often someone starts off here on the wrong foot. Just gotta give 'em some help so they can get their balance.

Not the 1st time a BS has come on board with a bit of a'tude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tempest is just doing what is necessary. Sure glad those mods are here. Otherwise, who'd keep us in line? LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Geeze, us BS' could make mincemeat out of terrorists! LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Btw, thanks Tempest!

L.

Two thumbs up for this post Tempest! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think it’s really important for people to try and treat each other with civility, dignity & respect – even if they don’t like each other and/or don't agree with each other’s personal viewpoints and opinions.

One thing though...I’m just disappointed in the use of the word “playground” to describe a place where people post and seek advice on possibly the most painful event which can take place in a M... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Tempest was needed to post this warning to be nice to one another even when we disagree.

It is my opinion the golden retriever should have one best in show.

celt..

how does this type of post help this issue...

how??

if it is as bad as you say..then report it to the mods...have it deleted and move on..

ARK

I HAD reported it and JustUSS wrote back several thoughtful emails.

Coffee Spew! >>> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><<<
Opinion noted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Celt...
that is good..

I just do not see how drawing attention to it here does anything but draw attention and possibly add more fuel to a fire....



ARK

And maybe the spelling bee, too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

MY opinion is that I am correct to choose NOT to watch any Olympic event after which the participants clutch stuffed animals.

Also, I believe the REAL attraction of the tension filled curling competition is the tailgating.

WAT

On the last day of school in 4th grade, Sunny Burns and I got kicked off the playground, so we went back to the classroom and glued all the desks to the floor and put glue in all the locks of the Teachers Desk which were locked at the time.

That room had all new tile the next year, so I guess it was forced remodeling, and I must say it looked very nice, especially with the new teachers desk.....

I'm sorry, what were we talking about... Oh Yeah, GO TEMPEST.... And JustUss, I still can't look at a toothbrush the same....

It is also my opinion the average canine can spell better than eldente.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ditto to what BigK said. That is what I am looking for on the boards.

Not the 1st time a BS has come on board with a bit of a'tude.

Hmmm... I don't think this is about new posters...

I think this is about posters who've been here long enough that they should know better.

I mean c'mon folks, these boards about about healing relationships and finding healthy ways of dealing with pain... not turning that pain onto someone else.

I just do not see how drawing attention to it here does anything but draw attention and possibly add more fuel to a fire....

Oh I don't know, ark... I'm glad attention has (again) been brought. We need to discuss these things.

After all, why do we expose affairs? Because dark things don't thrive in the light.

J

Tempest:

If you are listening, I want to let you know that overall I really appreciate and agree with your post and admonition.

However, if you would, please explain why you refer to the forum as a PLAYGROUND. It means much more to MANY of us than that!!!

MImi..

I am not referencing this post...and its content..
I am referencing reference to a post that poster believes is not nice....

just causes people to go there and add flame in support or unsupport of this or that....

it probably doesn't help the posters that need help...just drags more in to it...

ARK

ARK:

I GOTCHA...

I AGREE with you, too....


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It's a metaphor mimi...I don't think that she means it literally.

Metaphor:

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another

It's similar to telling the people that get upset and leave the forum to "take your ball and go home".

It's being used figuratively, not literally.

committed

coddling wollybag fishbanger hot falumpers!

no joke.

i suggest we all get to work reviewing the MB principles and reminding ourselves that they do work...if you have the intestinal fortitude to actually do it and not water it down with 99 justifications or take the entire program ala carte. modify when really necessary, not just because it gets uncomfortable or hard.

thats my unproven but highly valued opinion. vote for me.

Ditto Biggles

WOL

"Be polite to one another, respect one another, or ... you will lose your playground privileges for a week - maybe even longer." The above was an attempt to lighten up the tone of this message - not a threat to ban anyone. It was, apparently, an unsuccessful attempt. I have since edited it out of the post that started this thread.

I have been a member of this forum, a moderator and an administrator. I hate to sound like a broken record (remember them?), but I am a volunteer - a regular person - not a counselor, not an employee of Marriage Builders. Not much different than any other person here. I am not perfect, but I do my best. There are thousands of people posting thousands of messages every week here on the MB Forums. This is the busiest of all of them, and one of the places where problems come up on a regular basis. I can't read all of the posts by all of the people, so I spot check, rely on the moderators and rely on the members to let me know where there are problems.

I also want to make it clear that NO ONE PERSON was intended to be the target of this message. When I want to send a message to a single person, I do so via e-mail, privately. I do not resort to the pettiness that some of you are attributing to me of putting a public message on the forums about someone. If you feel that this message was directed at a specific individual then you are incorrect. There have been quite a number of people, as is stated in my message, that have been disrespectful in many ways to other forum members on this particular forum.

While the primary intent of the MB Forums is to discuss the application of MB principles to marriages, there is nothing wrong with discussing other principles, provided they are intended to encourage the building or recovery of strong and happy marriages. One of the keys to any successful relationship is respect. I simply ask that you all remember that, and consider when you post a response to a person if it is respectful.

Perhaps we need a new forum for 'Respect towards others.'

As a Brit, I'm often a little startled by the 'robust' attitude taken by some posters. I tend to assume that there's some cultural difference in what's considered acceptable...but perhaps it's not cultural? Just rude?

Some posters, I think, see their opinions as defining them as people, and have not yet evolved to the point of seeing opinions as a statement of one's views at the current moment, and capable of alteration given good arguments in favour of another view. So criticism of their opinions is interpreted as attacks on them personally.

And other posters attack a shaky opinion by questioning the basic opinion-forming mechanism of the opinion-holder. This, in my (currently-held and capable of alteration) view, is both unfair and ineffective. To suggest that someone is poorly qualified to hold an opinion makes no sense - NONE of us is the holder of 'absolute truth' (unless God is participating in this forum under a pseudonym), and ALL of us have weaknesses in our judgement-forming faculties.

Politeness does not equate to mincing words and avoiding the hard stuff - it just means not bashing someone with a blunt instrument in order to get them to acknowledge your 'truth'.

TA

THANK-YOU VERY MUCH, TEMPEST!!

Now, I agree with you completely.

It's great to know that you are around....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I posted this on another thread awhile back...it seems to apply here as well


it seems to me that since this site has helped us to understand and learn about the importance of changing our behaviors, we could use our time here to practice what we've learned

Eav, you are right on the money.

I for one am really glad we are discussing this. I first reg'd at MB in 1999 as a WS and was treated with universal love and compassion. Not that I wasn't called to task from time to time, but it was done with respect and compassion.

That provided me with an environement that encouraged me to face my responsibilities to my wife and helped me work through a lot of things.

I've noticed over the years that the 'tone' of these boards has changed and it hurts me to see people whose marriages could have been potentially saved driven off by the vitriol of nasty and rude posters.

Like I said, I'm glad this issue is being addressed. To be sure the mods and admin have a huge job to tackle. When I first joined, the boards were still new and the poster base was very small compared to what it is now. Still I'm glad and grateful for these wonderful people who volonteer their time and care to help keep things on track.

We should all pitch in and get them a gift basket or something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think opinions backed up by facts, figures, examples, and citations from recognized sources have a better chance of influencing others. Just my opinion, of course.



And a very good opinion, Longhorn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Sincerely,
K.D.'s Heartbreak

Maybe it would be helpful if those who have been on the board for a while and have been through the MB process and either recovered their marriage or divorced can give a link to their story or write their story and be able to post it. I think it would be helpful to new people if they knew the background of the person advising them what they should do.

Everyone should be able to post their opinion as they see it and also to give encouragement to anyone. But when someone posts to a new person with the...ok here is what you need to do attitude...then I feel like they should have to at least provide what they went through and what helped and what didn't help for them now that they are recovered or divorced.

For instanceI I feel like I can voice my opinion on a situation because I am a smart person who can think and reason, but I do not feel qualified to tell someone what they should do in Plan B for instance or even when to go to Plan B because I have not done that.

To me when I read Mimi's story or Lemonman's story it made me appreciate where they were coming from in their advice. Much more so than someone just telling me how much they know...share with me your personal journey then I can relate better to that.

I guess that is my long winded opinion and my way of saying that everyone has something valuable to contribute to anyone, but if you want someone to follow what you say then you should be able to back up your words. We are talking about people's lives here. Everyone needs to take what they hear here and apply it accordingly to their own situation.

I think it would be helpful if a staff member of MB posted on the forums from time to time. But that is just my opinion!

i would love it if Jennifer Harley would post here once in awhile...she has helped me so much

i wish others could benefit from her wisdom also but i know the cost is a big factor

I don't post a whole lot, but I look for Mel's posts. She is a no-nonsense kind of person, and I think that many of us need exactly the straight-forward, no-nonsense advice that she gives out. I don't find her rude at all...just absolutely honest and very often as funny as all get-out!

I also don't post a lot (as you can see by my stats!). But, I have lurked around here since the fall of 2003. Though I have gained insight from many people's situations and points of view, I have to say that I came to look for Pepperband, MelodyLane and Lemonman for no-nonsense opinion and/or advice. There are others that don't come around much anymore that I also looked for, like Gimble and BobPure, but that seems to be for a different reason.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> HEYLADY...

fall of 2003...
13 posts...

better catch up

Slacker..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

ARK

OK, THAT WAS REALLY FUNNY!!!!!

come on guys, lighten up. yes we want to save our marriages and improve ourselves, which includes improving how we talk to each other too. for the record, i liked the playground comment, to me it sounded exactly as it was meant, an attempt to let you all know you are not being harshly scowlded.

see the thing is, especially because we cannot "hear" inflection of the poster, or see the rest of their body language, who you "hear" a post has a lot to do with how YOU choose to hear a post!!!

yes, some words are so obviously rude, but still, do you choose to hear those words as coming from a person who is just rude in their core or from a person who may be hurting???

something to think about, don't you think???

and if you practice doing that here, choosing to listen with compassion, empathy, or whatever word you choose that makes you come out of yourself and really look at the other person's perspective, just think about how much that habit can help you in your marriage or any other real life relationship.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!

one more thing: all the mods here ROCK, all the long-time posters ROCK, all the newer posters ROCK. and sometimes, (only sometimes) i almost can get myself to say i rock (but that's a totatlly different issue, HI JL).

i'm in.

Doing counseling has increased my awareness of how people hear, listen, perceive things differently.

An example:

A client comes into my office for a session. It's getting near the end of the session time. These are the varied reactions I have gotten from different people.

1. A client initiates a comment about "I see it's near my time to end." They proceed to stand up, grab their coat, walk to the door, walk out to the desk and set up another appointment.

2. A client notices me taking a glance at my watch or a clock and says "Oh, it's time for me to end now." They stand up, grab their coat, walk to the door...........

3. I have done #2 with no notice on behalf of the client. I say to them, "We need to finish up now. Our session time is up for today." They go "Oh, ok. I hadn't noticed." They stand up, grab their coat, walk to the door......

4. I have done # 2 and #3 and the client gets on their coat, goes to the door, and continues to stand in the doorway talking about whatever, saying "I know it's time to go, but......". They continue to talk until I prompt them with "Yes it's time to go. I'll see you next week."

5. We have gone through #2, #3. This time, however, the client doesn't get up or acknowledge my comment that it's time to go. I have to prompt them again. "That sounds like something we can talk about next week, but now it's time for you to go. My next appointment is waiting." They continue to talk as they stand up, put on their coat, walk to the door, linger in the door, and I have to walk over to them in the door and repeat, "We can discuss that next week. You need to leave now." They walk slowly down the hall, looking back. I say again, "I'll see you next week" and go back inside my office.

6. Prompts from # 2 and 3 have occurred. The client continues to talk. Doesn't acknowledge my comment in any way. Keeps on talking as I repeat my prompt that it's time to leave, that we can discuss it further the next week, that I have another client waiting, etc. They continue sitting in the chair, maybe say "Oh yes", and continue to talk and sit in the chair. I prompt several more times with no response. I finally walk over to the chair and say "You need to go now...Let me help you on with your coat." They stand and I assist with their coat. They stand there, not moving, and continue to talk. I prompt them again about leaving, ending the session. They continue to stand. I walk over to them, touch their arm, and walk in the direction toward the door, with them very slowly following. They stand in the door and talk. I prompt them again that we need to end the session...etc... They stand in the door talking...and talking. Finally I say, "You have to go now. You need to leave right now." Then I still have to walk them down the hall, my hand gently under their elbow, and direct the office assistant to set up another appt. with them. They continue to try and carry on a conversation with me going back down the hall. I walk into my office and shut the door.

My first client would have been terribly hurt if I addressed them in the way I spoke with anyone else.

My second client would have been hurt if I addressed them in the way I spoke with # 3, etc.

My third client would have been hurt if I addressed them in the way I spoke with ..........

And on and on...

I became very uncomfortable at levels 5 and 6. I would normally never speak that blatantly, or physically assist a client out of my office. I was concerned about how it may have impacted client 5 and 6. Then I realized, they never even "heard" me until I elevated my message to levels 5 and 6. So what I and others might perceive as "rude" or aggressive, was their starting level of perception. Number 1 would have been devestated at levels 3, 4, 5, 6....

This is the reason that I believe tolerance of others ways of presenting info, sharing thoughts and opinions, etc., is needed. A level 1 person may not be able to hear feedback from a level 3, 4, 5, 6, person due to their hurt and/or shame. A level 6 might only hear feedback if hit over the head with the proverbial 2x4. If a person has expressed that they don't need to be "beat up" respect it. If a person says "Bring on the 2x4!", go for it, if that's your style.

It's my value that if the level of perception is unknown or uncertain, start at a level of greater sensitivity. Then move up if they don't seem to hear, perceive, etc., and are still seeking feedback.

There's been enough hurt, anger, sadness, in all of our lives.

Heartmending, taking someone's arm and assisting them to the door while still talking to them is a VERY GOOD COMMUNICATION SKILL.

I saw this in action the other day when my young (23 year old) assistant did this to a student who would not stop talking even though my assistant was extremely busy.

I was really impressed. My assistant stood up from his desk and said "wow, that's great", "gosh, yes what a good idea" and meanwhile had him by the elbow and was moving him towards the door.

No one was offended, my assistant could get on with his job and the student felt listened to.

Excellent post heartmending. Excellent. I don't think I have seen it explained better.

Tempest

IME people exposit opinions and they expect others to AGREE with them, not just be kind about them. When people's opinions are forcefully disagreed with or worse, demosntrated to be incorrect some people's sensitivity to 'rudeness' increases enormously presumably out of embarassment.

IMO being 'kind' about a persons incorrect and even dangerous opinions is the worst kind of condescension. "thats nice dear".

When a person avocates actions that are contrary to those which Harley espouses and that have been proven to fail in sit after sit, it is a kindness to point out to that person why the opinion is wrong IMO. Politley, if possible, sure.

I was advised very forthrightly not to expose, not to plan A, not to police my own personal boundaries and in fact not to bother at all with trying to save my marriage....over the months. The very things that have probably saved my marriage. Some of the same wise heads who have been slated recently or their combative attitude dismissed such talk, grabbed me by the collar and dragged me to doing the right thing. Was I p1ssed at the time ? Heck yes, but I learned RIGHT FAST.
Tempest PLEASE continue to police decency and politeness between posters, but PLEASE don't allow crackpot ideas to be offered the same credence as Harley-proven ones.

Thanks.

Tempest,
Here's bob's good words: "IME people exposit opinions and they expect others to AGREE with them, not just be kind about them. When people's opinions are forcefully disagreed with or worse, demosntrated to be incorrect some people's sensitivity to 'rudeness' increases enormously presumably out of embarassment."

That being said, I don't expect many to agree with my views. I don't particularly like to hold hands (*although I do support people well)or make them feel warm and fuzzy when they are up against some of the hardest and most cruel situations that they will ever come up against in their lives.

I am not going to agree with somebody if I perceive that the advice is doing further harm to an already harmed BS. I just won't. I will try to be kind to the BS who is undergoing the crisis always. Supportive yet offering concrete thoughts and applications when I can.

When we pat somebody on the back, basically tell them what they want to hear (your WS will return, you're doing good, etc)does that do any good? No. Not at all.

From what I've been told, this and discussions like this have been going on for some time. And will continue to go on as posters come and go...eventually I will go. Don't know when...but my soul will tell me when to move on. Until then, I just want to help as I can. Help people heal when able, and help them to wake up and smell the coffee when needed also!

For me, offering an opinion isn't abut trying to convince someone that my way is the right way...or right opinion. It's about sharing a viewpoint that I have found helpful. The sharing isn't to convince someone to change or to see it my way, but to offer another way of looking at something. If it's helpful to someone else, good. If not, that's ok, too. It's not my intent to prove myself "right" or "wrong"....anymore than it is to try and prove my feelings as being right or wrong.

We are all adults on this forum. We are responsible for how much or how little we choose to listen to varying opinions. If there's someone whose opinions and/or style of presentation has been helpful, then ignore othter's feedback and go with your own instincts.

Heartmending, this is one of the BEST posts I have read on these forums so far. This was an absolute wonderful, accurate and articulate post... EXCELLENT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The above quote if from Melodylane's response to 2BNormal's thread on whether or not she should contact OMW. Circumstances irrelevant, issues irregardless...this is an attack and needs to be addressed as such.

Calling posters shallow and moral cowards is the best way to run people off this site and prevent them from getting the help they need. This needs to end.

I agree as well. THIS needs to end! Thank you for posting this Owl!

Owl and 2B,

Send a message about the post to one of the Mods privately. "Tattling" on a public thread just smacks of coaxing people to take sides...

How do you send a PM to a mod? I would have taken that route but didn't know how to send a PM to one.

At the bottom of the forum page are the mods names listed. Each name is a link to their profile, and their email address.

you know irregardless isn't a real word, right?

just checking

be happy.

Hehehe, good point. At least bad English is better than bad manners or bad behavior! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Heartmending, thanks for a great explanation!

I agree that people vary tremendously in their sensitivity and ability to 'hear' messages. I think its important not only to avoid a few hurt feelings. I think its important because blasting someone with a message when they would have heard a whisper can mean they actually do not hear the message at all in the end.

If someone is a little deaf, the music needs to be loud before they can hear it at all.
If someone has excellent hearing, if the music is way too loud, it can become so annoying they stop listening.

I must agree: I have been told on a few threads that I can't disagree without being wrong!!!! But I've got thick skin. :-)

No Sfjaj, you've been told on a few threads that if you disagree with MB principles you will be told you are wrong. There is a difference and you don't seem to be getting that. Unfortunately.

No, I don't mind being told someone doesn't agree: it is in the approach someone takes: mean spirited or destructive

or Constructive

WOW, Excellent post!

I totally agree!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MND2K

I agree, also! Too many resort to hostilities when disagreeing

Talk to me anytime, Sfjaj! I'm with you...DJ's are not constructive...they are destructive.

I think getting rid of LB's is great for any relationship, not just marriage. Even discussion forum relationships!

Please keep posting, sfjaj. (I think we might be in similar boats, and I need to hear your perspective!)

Very Encouragingly,
Habiba

I see this board as a relationship...takes three parts to communicate on it...my part, the poster's part and the board. Like a marriage, I have to own my part. I can't make another own theirs. And when I disagree strongly, have a reaction to a post, I look inside me, first. In the end, I'll choose to honor the board, even when I don't want to honor the poster.

I believe this relationship will show the same signs as the marriages (perspectives) the posters are in. If there is disrespect in their lives, it is reflected here. If they expect rejection, they will see it. If they expect disrespect, they'll see that. That's their part, too.

Same as mine. I show respect by looking inside and owning what I find. That's how I grow. That's the beauty of this board...this relationship.

Might even say, the disrespect is essential to growth, as well as the respect. Maybe it is the only way for some posters to see it.

All human, all the time.

LA

LA, you have always shown posters respect, from what I have seen. You encourage me to try to improve and correct my errors. Others who condemn harshly just turn WS away who are trying to change

((((sfjaj))))

Hey, I was disrespectful for 43 years...I got some makin' up to do, Lucy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for speaking your thoughts...I don't believe we can drive WS's away...maybe fulfill their expectation and feel entitled to leave? I dunno.

I do believe that exampling what you believe communicates more than message you're delivering. It's part of it.

LA

Question...FOR THE MODERATORS, PLEASE.

Is it the policy/guidlines of this forum that ONLY marriage builder specific advice/guidance/support be given on this forum? I realize that this is the MARRIAGEBUILDERS website, and completely recognize that fact. I actually respect that, and respect that the marriage builders program is absolutely the best program I've seen. But I also know what I've seen work in other instances, and know that while the story is nearly always the same, there are times when you have to modify the treatment to the specific circumstances.

Does this mean that the only authorized principles for recovery to be used are the ones as laid out here? No other recommendations are to be provided for posters that come here?

If I, as a former BS, make a suggestion to another poster on this site that is not in strict adherence with (or perhaps directly opposite to) those laid out by the strictures of the Marriage Builders program, am I crossing the lines for posting on this forum? Or is it acceptable to post a differing view based on either other recovery sources or personal experience?

AGAIN, I'm asking this of the MODERATORS ONLY. I have read the understandings of many of the posters here...I'm curious what the ACTUAL, ENFORCED standards are for this site.

Thank you.

Incidentally, everyone, on this site everyone's views do NOT count

nope, only yours seem to count- in fact they count so much other people are getting ignored. I'm sure that's exactly what you want isn't it?

All the attention goes to you- to heck with trying to save marriages- let's just stir up some trouble and take the focus off recovering marriages.

not true

I'm sorry...I just found the answer to my question further up in this very same thread. I should have read a little deeper...

According to Tempest:

So, the general guidelines are that other principles CAN be discussed/posted/whatever.

And...that any responses on this site should always be RESPECTFUL.

Got it...now I understand how this is supposed to work.

TESTIMONY OF A FOOL
As I sit here in my retirement home reminiscing about thoughts of years gone by,
I hope you listen to what I'm about to say, and this is the reason why.
You see, when I was just a young dad with a family of my own,
I was too blind to see that the things in life that mattered the most,
just one day might be gone.
I was only forty-five years old and had been married most all my life.
I had two teenage children, a lovely home, along with a faithful wife.
But my life became so boring with the same things happening each day.
Sex grew so monotonous, and my lust seemed to just slip away.
My wife, instead of my once lover, became my best friend.
I grew to love her more like a sister, or so I thought back then.
Lustful thoughts began invading my once faithful mind.
My wandering eyes became more wandering, most all the time.
I justified my actions though, for my wife just couldn't see,
that it was entirely her fault, what was happening to me.
She was always so involved with our young boy and girl,
that she didn't understand me, nor did she include me in her world.
She was always doing for others and somehow neglecting me.
How could she have been so blind that she couldn't even see,
what was happening to us.
When I reached out in lust and followed it through,
there was nothing in this world that my wife could do,
for I'd found the "love of my life",
a one of a kind, or so I thought.
My new wife was a looker, sexy and lean.
To me she was the prettiest girl I'd ever seen.
But shortly after we married she tried to make me over,
and that's when I knew that the honeymoon was over.
Oh how the years seemed to slowly slip away.
I thought about my first wife and children every day.
I could almost smell the biscuits as I'd crawl out of bed,
but now all that lay beside me was an aging sleepy head.
My first wife is now married to a jewel of a man I'm told.
He spoils her and cherishes her, and now he's growing old,
with the woman that I love.
My children, when they have time, come around every now and then,
but I can't help but reminisce what my life just might have been,
if I'd stayed home like I should have.
Now I'm old and all alone, living out my life in an old retirement home.
My second wife died and my children don't seem to care,
for they are now enjoying the dad who was always there.
Oh, if I could live my live all over again,
I wouldn't have been as selfish as I'd been back then.
I would now love my wife for being a wonderful mother,
and respect her and cherish her as my only lover.
But all these things just cannot be,
for now it's just too late for me.
But as for yourself you'd better think twice,
should you ever want to leave your wife.

WS, OWN YOUR AFFAIR, STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM!!!



Time to own it, time to claim responsibility, time to hold yourself accountable!!!!!!

No more, I was manipulated.

No more, I was taken advantage of.

No more, I was lonely.

No more, I was mistreated.

No more, my needs were not being met.

Stop playing the victim!!!!!!!! Once you take responsibility for your choices you can move on to recovery. If you are still feeling justified, you can not move ahead.

I will NOT give OM any credit in my choice to have an A. It was my choice, he did not have a gun to my head, I'm smarter than his smooth talk, I'm smarter than his manipulation, he did not win me over. I chose it, because of who I was. Not because of who he was. Would I chose it again, not on your life!!!

I am owning my Affair. I am taking responsibility for it. It was ME, not my H's neglect, not OM, it was ME!!!!!!!!!!

I'm asking all other WS, to claim responsibility, to hold yourself accountable, to know that it was all YOU, and move on to working on you, to make sure this doesn't happen again. Find out why you chose to have an A, and improve on yourself.

Rebuild yourself and your M. Stand up and say,"I" made a mistake, I am sorry, and I will lead my life differently so I do not repeat history.

When you have taking control, when you have stopped pointing the finger, when you own it, you can then move on from it. I really feel this is a pivotal step to recovering a better you and a better Marriage.

Once I stopped being the victim of my H's past behavior, and of the OM's lure, I was able to really embrace my mistake, and work through it, and see me for who I was at the time. I was able to see how my character flaws played such a huge part in my choice to have this A.

I'm in no way saying be proud of what you did. Just in case somebody misunderstands me. I'm just saying, admit your failures, admit it was you and your choice alone, admit there is something about you, that needs to be improved.

No more victims, WS & FWS. It was a very bad choice we made, but it was our choice, stand up and claim it.

I had an Affair because of my character flaws, and I'm taking steps everyday to create a better me for myself and for my H, so our marriage can be blissful and affair proof.

BS, step aside and allow them to take full responsibilty for this. I know it is less painful to think OP had control, your S failed you, it is they who need to be held acountable.

Stepping down off my soapbox.

Recovered wife, KY

Who was that RW from KY, Pep?

You don't have 2 answer that.

I love the testimonial, 2.

-ol' 2long

PEP-

I just wanted to say that I think your 2 previous posts are wonderful.

TESTIMONY OF A FOOL has to be one of the most poignant things I've read in a long time...

What could've been....

Heartmending:

I have often wondered how an "hour" counseling session was developed as the "time" that should be devoted in any given week. Sometimes an hour is too long and at other times, it would seem that an hour is too short.

Perhaps it is all a compromise.

Larry

Who cares what you think?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Deleted

To Owl:

You may not be able to speak for everyone...but you can speak for me anytime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you. It's not necessary to rile people up in order to get your point across. It only serves to make them combative. The message itself becomes lost in the reader's emotional response due to poorly chosen words. Why use a Sherman tank when a flyswatter will do the same job? It makes no sense to me either.

Personally, I don't see how "everyone's opinion counts" here at MB. Ideas cannot flow freely, not even if those ideas are representative of the program. And while I'm VERY happy to recommend the literature, I won't recommend the forum to anyone again.

It's a shame too, because the vast majority of these good folks are respectful and kind in their postings.

Thanks LJ...I know I don't speak for everyone...but I DO know that there have been complaints virtually every week about the lack of respect shown to MANY posters by just a few people on this site. There have been MANY people who have complained about the personal attacks, the derogatory comments, the deliberately offensive tones and comments made by a few people. It's not a 'posting style'...it's deliberately posting personal comments ABOUT PEOPLE...not about the problems or issues. It's disrespectful judgements being deliberately posted with no other intent than to cause hurt feelings, angry responses, and to truly do nothing more than to HURT THE POSTERS.

I've raised this issue here before. On the original post in this thread, Tempest said:


But that standard isn't enforced in this forum now. I've asked here, I've emailed the moderators (with a single response to one of my emails...subsequent emails have been ignored), I've posted in the forum on this board where these questions are supposed to be asked (again, with no response).

So I'll ask my question here again...why does this board allow personal attacks, rude and attacking comments, and continued blatant disrespect to many posters by a handful of people? There have been MANY complaints, MANY threads locked due to a couple of specific people's attacks...rather than lock the thread, how about setting and ENFORCING the guidelines down for posting here?

I know that this post is going to upset a number of people...sorry, but this needs to be aired. I'm sure I'm considered the problem...but I'm not. I'm just the guy who's tired of seeing it over and over. Tired of seeing posters chased off by others because of rude, angry, verbally abusive comments. Rather than attack the people, lets attack the problems.

Anyone else feel this way? LJ, 2BN, LLG, IWRA...and any number of other posters who have given up because of this?

Or are the crickets chirping?

From Penalty Kill

I hear you, Owl. I have decided that it is like this quote from George Orwell's Animal Farm: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

I have pretty thick skin (physically and emotionally) so I'm able to brush any attacks off without too much offense taken. However, I can see where others have felt hurt, and that is wrong, IMVHO. Remember back in elementary school, when you had a playground bully? There were three roles the other children played: either they got bullied, they joined in the bullying, or they sat by quietly and watched, grateful they weren't the recipient of the bullying. Same rules apply throughout life. Fear of reprisal shouldn't keep folks from standing up for others. I'll probably be black-balled for saying this, and I even considered using a new screen name, just to avoid confrontation. That would be wrong and cowardly, so here I am.

I've been off and on this site for (yipes) almost 7 years... a cyber-lifetime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This kind of thing has gone on since dot... the beginning... and there's not a heck of a lot anyone can do about it... except!... put it in its proper perspective.

This is not real life, it is a website. I know that we all are real people... and I have been hurt more times than I can count... seriously. I've been attacked, had threads closed, removed and edited. BTDT.

All that said, there are 50,000+ posters and god only knows how many readers... and a small handfull of moderators who do the work for free on their own time. And really, unless this were a private (log-in only) website with 30 posters tops, there is simply not enough hours in a day to catch every infraction.

Also interesting to note: Just this morning I was looking for something on a thread from last week and I noticed that Justuss had been there and edited out a bunch of curse words ... stuff where the poster(s) used *$@ instead of letters... now there's just ***'s there and the note that Justuss edited. I wondered why that was done. Has it really gotten that bad that adults can't use )&^$# to say a word we'd say even in polite company?

I think the whole thing has gotten out of hand all the way around... yes, there are a few hard-core posters who seem to push the buttons of a lot of folks... and again, I have been 'hit' by a few stray, or intentionally fired bullets myself. But at the end of the day, this is a website... about saving marriages... not the church social or a family gathering. This is a lesson I've had to learn the hard way.

ETA: I do realize that this is also a living, breathing community... please don't misunderstand me. Yes, you'll care about people and their situations... but still, when all is said and done, it will have been a moment in time... even if you stay for years, as a few of us have... there is this world and the real world. Sometimes they meet... but usually... we will fade away from this place, as so many have before us... because it is... a website.

Agreed...however since this is a website where people come for help and advice and assistance through one of the most difficult situations that they're ever likely to face they should feel comfortable to post without fear of attack, critical personal judgements, or any other form of disrespect.

We're here to help. Help does NOT mean attacking a poster's character, or making rude disrespectful comments about them.

It's about helping them to identify and solve the problems that brought them here. If there is something glaringly obvious that requires a 2x4...aim it at the problem, not the person.

So how about we do it that way instead? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

that's was makes this place so special...