I saw some discussion on this on another thead. Most of us say Emotional Needs while someone else mensioned preferences, not needs. I wondered about this. Don't have the answer.....just thinking out loud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

I have been here a while, and I always thought….."needs...hmm...yah, they are needs".....Now I am wondering about this again.


I think about the last year. I have been alone. Did my EN get satisfied by another person? NO.

If it is a need, then why have I been able to survive for a year without them?

Lets look at the list:

Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

I can see how I can live without any of the 10. Is it not the case that *I* should be happy with my life as it is before I bring another person into it?

If that is the case, would it not be true that I really would LIKE to have affection and SF and conversation etc with a SO, yet I find my life fullfiling as is (I recover it no matter if I recover the M or not), so I find happiness in my life without another person.

It seems that I can live a fulfilling life without anyone, and hence without getting these EN met by a SO. Of course the fact is that people usually go out and look for someone at some point. They want someone to share their live with. So, can we not say they WANT to receive Affaction, SF, conversation etc. from a SO? Is it really a need? Is it a NEED that drives us back to the ‘dating scene’ or is it a DESIRE to have SF, Affaction, etc?


It seems that once in a relationship we have all these ‘needs’ that we WANT and EXPECT the other person to meet, yet we were perfectly happy to have NONE of them met when alone.

Once in a relationship, I am not happy unless I do get Affaction or SF from my partner. It seems that I enter a relationship having some EXPECTATIONS of what I’ll get in that relationship.

If I am alone, go on a date, and then MR. X tells me (for some unknown reason <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) that were we to become a couple that none of the 1-10 would get met, then I am likely to GET UP and leave right away, get angry, think him an a$$, etc. Yet, what he is offering (in a really bizarre way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) is exactly what I already have.

Of course, in that case there is no POINT in being with that person as they don’t add anything to your life.

So, if MR. Z does step up and says I will do my best to fulfill 1-10, we are more willing to make a commitment.

Yet, when MR. Z falls short on some of these, meets 1-5, but is not full on board with 6-10, we feel unhappy. Yet we are getting more then we were when we were alone, and we were happy then.

This is why it seems to me sometimes that really these are WANTS and EXPECTATIONS (expectations of being LOVED by the other person), not necessarly needs.


I don’t think it really matters at the end if you call them needs or wants, yet these two do to a certain degree suggest different things. I want something, implies I can do without. I need something, implies I cannot do without. And when we do end up in a relationship where we are not getting 1-10, we cannot DO without it.

Just some random thoughts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />…..as I am sure you can tell…… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am thinking about my own EN and wondering about if I really NEED my H to satisfy them, is it essential for my survival or do I just WANT these met.

Of course what occurs to me is that perhaps I don’t need them for MY survival, but I NEED them for OUR M to survive.

Any thoughts....am not looking for a 2x4 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />....
Daisy
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The whole EN thing is stupid to me. I know that people would like someone to come along and meet all of their needs, but it reminds me of a baby. We are talking about adults here.

I believe that a person needs to be responsible for getting their top needs met, and not necessarily through their partner - except for SF of course.

I have a big conversation need, and frankly my WH NEVER met it. So I joined a women's Bible study group. I also have nurtured my friendships with other women, and over the years that was sufficient.

It is a little bit impractical to think that one person can meet all of your needs IMHO.

For domestics needs, I could hire a cleaning lady. A dog is great for affection. See my point?

I married my WH because he was a good man and I loved and respected him. I never expected him to be everything to me.

Aughh. EN's as the cause of an A.

Don't get me started.

Believer and I agree in this, I think.

If missing ENs cause As or set the stage for them, or whatever then:

you better never get sick,
you better never grow old,
you better never blink,
you better never miss a beat,
you better always be on call,
you better never work overtime,

you better live only for your needy spouse…

One slip-up and spouse is going to have another A. And it’s going to be all your fault. Again.

IMO, ENs are an engineered way for a WS who wants to come home to save face. I agree, they can make a good M better and more satisfying. But that’s about it.

My FWW’s VLTA lasted 10 freaking years. I never once had any EN whatsoever met, not even a little bit, during that time. In fact, I can’t remember any ENs being met in any significant way in my M, period.

But I did not have an A. And there have been many opportunities. Some blatant. Shoot, there’s one now. But I just don’t commit adultery. I do not break my promises.

And, BTW, I met all her ENs. She even says I did, without LBs. Yet she had the VLTA. Explain that as missing ENs?

Know what I did? I redirected my ENs. I changed as circumstances required. She doesn’t clean house? I learned to do it. She doesn’t do childrearing? I became Mr. Mom. She doesn’t cook? I learned to do it. She doesn’t like SF with me (she said OM was better), I learned to live without. She spends money like water on herself and OM? I supported the family on my salary. She doesn’t like any sports or social activities? I made lots of new male friends. She needs admiration? I poured it on from day one, and I meant it. She needs affection – I never let up.

And yes, to all you WS out there, yes it was freaking hard on me. Everything about this M is hard. I’m only now realizing it. I lost my identity in her stupid ENs. Now I want it back.

But I just don’t commit adultery. It is immoral, it is unethical and it hurts everyone involved.

The potential OW in my life right now is much too nice a person for me to do that to her. I would rather die than have her commit the sin of adultery on my behalf. And I would rather die than hurt FWW the way she hurt me.

Some of us keep our promises even when it hurts.

How do single people survive without someone constantly meeting their ENs, anyway?

Missing ENs cause As. Sorry, I just don’t believe it. Not for a moment.

If this were true I would be a long time serial adulterer.

JMO.

Well, since we all (so far) seem to be in agreement, let me toss this out for discussion:

[color:"red"] TO BE VULNERABLE TO AN EVENT IS NOT TO INVITE IT, March 23, 2002

If marriage counselors were emergency room doctors, they would always be asking questions like, "We need to understand why you stepped in front of that car, and why the driver needed you to do it." If they were cardiologists, they would be asking, "We need to understand why you needed to occlude your arteries, and why your spouse wanted you to."

An article of faith, not a fact that anyone has discovered or theory that makes any logical sense, the notion that infidelity always reveals something about the marriage continues to impose on couples demands that no one in any other realm of health care would countenance.

That an affair has occurred obviously means that the marriage was vulnerable to an affair--that the pattern of marital interaction allowed for an affair to happen. That does not mean that the affair is a function of that pattern.

Sometimes a spouse is mentally ill, for instance. Sometimes a spouse's early upbringing left him or her with serious ethical lacunae. Sometimes we just marry the wrong people, because we are young and naive or otherwise obtuse when marrying, and the person we marry chooses a dishonorable path. Sometimes we choose dishonorable ways of feeling better because of our own shortcomings. None of those are functions of the marriage.

If you try to fit your spouse's infidelity, or your own, into (conventional marriage counselor's) views, you may be taking on responsibility for managing someone else's mental illness or moral shortcomings, or you may be shifting your mental illness or ethical immaturity to your marriage, where they can never be fixed.

Nothing ever makes an individual trustworthy except his or her own good character. An affair need not show anything wrong with the marriage, but it ALWAYS shows unreliable character--a person who does not keep promises and engages in deceit is (by definition) unreliable. If you are the betrayer, you will never become a reliable partner without reforming the moral callousness that enabled you to use betrayal to make yourself feel better. If you are the betrayed, you make a serious mistake in believing that anything you can do will make your partner more reliable.

Yes, you might be able to decrease the partner's unhappiness[/color] (by meeting so called "emotional needs" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />) [color:"red"]; but then you will have taken responsibility for keeping the partner happy enough that he or she won't do what they should never be willing to do anyway.

I've seen marriages destroyed by well-meaning therapists who convince partners that something is wrong with the marriage, when there isn't, really--when some individual therapy or moral education for the betrayer could have saved the marriage. I've seen therapists ratify the betrayed person's broken sense of self by telling them they had a role in bringing it on themselves, thus forever warping their understanding of themselves and of the moral demands of marriage.

(The all too common belief that) both partners contribute-all in the name of dogma - makes no scientific or logical sense.[/color]

[part of a (not-to-flattering) review of a book purporting to explain why partners cheat]

but unmeet EN sure help create the invornment for A right?

or indidelity is just a result of lack of character of the adulterer?

Dont take me wrong, I am on your side, I mean I had never had my EN meet because meeting HIS EN was our goal, but he had many of them meet and he was the one cheating.

I would never have an A. But he did it.

I agree with Ron - YIKES! - it seems like I always do.

I think it makes sense to be sure you are doing the best job possible of meeting your partner's EN's, just to be sure.

I know my WH very well. His top EN's were SF, domestic support, financial support, and family commitment. I met those very well. But here's the rub - the kids grew up and were on there own, and his needs changed.

The OW completely abandoned her 12 year old daughter, so I guess family commitment wasn't important anymore. The OW was a stay at home mom and had never been in the work force, so financial support didn't play into the story. She is not into cooking or homemaking, more into partying, so domestic support was out.

And this all changed in a matter of months. He forgot to tell me.

Their relationship is very rocky with lots of fights and drama, splitting up and getting back together again. She never could have helped him raise his kids, but that is no longer important to him.

As I'm certain the "keepers" at Animal Kingdom try to keep the lions well fed. BUT, that won't prevent the lion from attacking if/when the mood strikes. The "beast" is what it is! Luckily, people can change. But it happens from within (and only when they want it). EN's (IMO) are not the answer.

hmmmmm.....<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Pure hogwash, Ron

The whole article revolves around the assumed premise that "the marriage" exists as a separate entity from the spouses. It doesn't.

Marriage is a condition...a relationship. It's a ephemeral as electricity. Mentally ill spouses cannot contribute to or protect the relationship, therefore, the marriage is at risk.

I do agree that ONE spouse can damage the relationship unbeknownst to the other. The "innocent" spouse can't be expected correct issues they are unaware of, however, when conditions arise that jeopardize the relationship, it's a time to step back and re-assess our commitment and contribution to it.

A misconception about the Emotional Needs theory is that these are "needs" for survival. This is untrue, as evidenced by one being able to live quite happily outside of a committed marital relationship.

No, the EN's that Harley talks about are those EN's that must be filled to nurture a strong relationship bond. There is a tremendous difference. They are the things you need from a person to allow you to engage and remain in relationship with them.

Some people need honesty. Some need financial support. Some need an attractive spouse. All of these a valid needs.

But need theory doesn't stand alone. The article does point out that patterns of marital interactions may allow for infidelity. This is addressed by Harley's Rules and Policies. The Rules and Policies are intended to foster a pattern of marital interaction that maximizes oppotunities to meet the needs of your spouse while defending against outside stressors (Rule of Protection).

What I believe what REALLY happens is that a strong emotional bond motivates spouses to really buy into the Rules and Policies. When EN's go unmet, commitment to the rule and policies wane, opening chinks in the armor of the relationship.

Well said, Low. You took the words right off my keyboard.

Let's not confuse needs for romantic love vs needs for survival! Hello??

JMHO

This is it!

The Harleys are referring to NEEDS in a ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP which would be different than my NEEDS in FRIENDSHIP with women. Notice SF is on that list, for example, and I am heterosexual. It would be like comparing your need for chocolate with your need for exercise..Maybe not a good analogy..but you get what I mean....

Maybe some folks have more of an overall need to be in a ROMANTIC relationship. I LOVE BEING IN LOVE AND WITH A MAN..and I think I would make that a priority in my life whether with my H or not...that's just me...

I Need someone to HOLD MY HAND..I like sitting on HIS lap with his ARM AROUND ME (Manly AFFECTION)..I NEED to hear HIM say.."You were looking so sexy this morning that I can't concentrate here at work" (ADMIRATION)

I Need his HELP with my life problems and around the house..he got the tax extension forms yesterday..washed the dishes last night...unstopped the toilet- DOMESTIC SUPPORT

Well we already know about SF...

I need to hear a man's perspective on world/community events, office politics here and American Idol..it's different than my girlfriends' views-CONVERSATION...

Who else in the world cares about our children like he does..shares their history with me..was there when they were born..is the primary breadwinner-FAMILY COMMITMENT

My H is FINE..HANDSOME to me..works out almost everyday..I love to see him when he is dressed up to leave in the morning and I love to see him with that towel around his waist at night after his shower-PHYSICAL ATTRACTION...

Got to go now..this says it...

I MISSED HIM MEETING THESE EMOTIONAL NEEDS WHEN HE WAS GONE...

He meets these needs and I AM SO IN LOVE WITH HIM NOW...It's about the ROMANCE....NOT SURVIVAL...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So , if they are not for survival , what are they for?

Choices? Preferences? or are they all apart of the BIG PICTURE?

Needs and Needs Theories.

I just Love um!


Max

Like the others pointed out, they are needs for ROMANTIC LOVE, not survival. You didn't have a romantic relationship in the last year.

And yes, the concept is very valid and I am, frankly, amazed at how very true it is. My H and I are passionately in love with each other by meeting each others needs.

I like White Daisy's thought process. If you are happily single with a rich life and you meet Mr X who tells you up front "I have nothing at all to offer you", hmmm, why would Mr X be dismissed. I think I tend to look at what people are draining from my life as opposed to how much they can add. There are many people in my life that don't seem to add alot to my happiness, but they don't cost me anything either. Kinda like cleaning a closet, does this thing take up more room then it is worth?? I am babbling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

As far as my affair, it was not a case of unmet EN's. My EN's had not been met for 10 years and I wasn't out rutting around. I am not kidding, for 10 years, my H and I had a bi-annual "Is this really how we want our marriage to be?" talk. And nothing ever changed. So, I met my EN's by doing other things. I dug a nice pond, it bought my M another year and a half of fidelity. If I had built a bigger waterfall, I probably would not have had the A.

I did not have the A because H was not meeting my needs. I chose a pi$$ poor way of meeting my own needs. (A nice big waterfall would have been a much better idea <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )

I worry about reconciliation since I am alone and happy. I am meeting my own needs, or adjusting my needs to match my life. If WH came home, what would he have to offer me? I would probably just feel drained running around trying to keep him happy and faithful.

But as a FWW, I do think that a decision can happen internally that takes infidelity off the menu of coping skills. I am also a alcoholic, so booze is not on my menu of coping skills anymore. I have dealt with major depression in my life and at a point, I decided that suicide was not on my menu anymore. Today, infidelity is not on my menu of coping skills anymore.

Maybe I am just getting old and cynical, but SF is the only EN that I just can't quite manage by myself. But my H told me that the only thing I wanted him for was a p3nis and a paycheck. Which seemed perfectly logical to me as he had never offered anything else in the way of EN's.

So now I would even have a clue as to what it is I need/want/desire in a relationship. It just seems that I look at the cost vs benefit analysis, and maybe it is just not worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Not really sure I understand where you're headed there, Max...

But let me try to explain what I think the difference between a need and a preference is in the context of relationships...

A NEED is that which you require to continue the relationship. If neglected, will ultimately result in its dissolution.

A PREFERENCE are those things that you might enjoy having in the relationship, but you can take it or leave it. For example, recreational companionship is a valid need. I NEED for her to engage in recreation with me. I would PREFER that it be something I really, really, really like doing, like goat roping or base jumping. BUT...the POJA process may bring us to an agreement on an activity that I PREFER less, but ensures the RC NEED gets met.

Does this make sense?

Low

"The whole article revolves around the assumed premise that "the marriage" exists as a separate entity from the spouses. it doesn't."

Nein, Nein, my good friend. I view (and Harley treats as) a "marriage" as a symbiotic relationship. Two distinct individuals joining for the mutual benefit of both. This symbiotic relationship IS treated as a third entity, distinct and separate from the two individuals. Harley treats EN's as necessary for the survival of this third entity. Unfortunately, all too often, the presumption is made that simply "keeping this third entity happy" will "affair proof" the relationship. It seems to me that this theory ignores all the "issues" brought into the relationship by the individuals involved (ie. FOO, mental illnes, character flaws, personal morality, views on monogamy, etc.); and, most importantly, human nature. Humans are hardwired to propagate. There is no "fidelity gene" that some are lacking.

I would buy the whole needs not being met thing, if the WS mentioned that in passing somewhere. It would be perfectly reasonable to explain that needs weren't being met, time for some changes. But as we see over and over here, that is usually not what happens.

All of the time we see someone cheating in a fairly happy marriage. The spouse is meeting 4 or 5 needs, and the OP meets the another 4 or 5. That is one reason the affair is kept secret - the WS has 2 people knocking themselves out meeting "needs".

My WH never got around to telling me the truth, so I don't really know how long the affair was on before I found out, but I believe it was almost a year.

I think many (not all) WS's feel entitled to having all their "needs" met, like a hog at the trough, no matter what the cost.

The way I look at it are Needs are the requirements to be met (contract, if you will) in order to be in a reciprocal relationship w/me.

I think they are termed needs instead of wants (as opposed to the good old budgeting terms: need=necessity to live vs want=preference) to highlight the importance of meeting these specific goals (as defined by each individual) in order to maintain a healthy relationship. Happiness comes from within, and if my S wants to share in my happiness, I'd better be getting my R needs met by him. Whether or not he meets my "needs" doesn't "make" me happy (ok, a little bit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), but I'll sure not have any use for him if he doesn't.

Although it does seem that a disproportionate # of M's here have 1 S who is/was open to A and 1 S who would NEVER think of having one. Makes me think that Givers are naturally attracted to Takers. Givers can go a longer time w/o having their needs met, more accepting of status quo. Takers, well, I'm not one (although I'm working on it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) so I can't really comment on their perspective... Maybe the adult equivolent of "high needs child". With this in mind, I theorize that some Ts are not so good at communicating needs, or the Gs may be reluctant to buck status quo (as "enough" needs are being met from the G's perspective to prohibit change). As T's really "want" to have their relationship "needs" met by someone, thus the environment becomes ripe for A's.

WD,

As you're no doubt aware, Dr. Harley's "Needs" are not to be confused with Maslow's physiological needs in his Heirarchy. They are not required to support human life. Harley's premise is that his "Needs" are necessary to support the healthy life of a relationship.

Perhaps the best way to look at Harley's Need theory is to think of them as forces...forces of attraction. External "forces" that may bring two individuals together, or may serve to hold two indiduals together in a relationship. While perhaps simplistic, this model does address certain dynamics of relationships. My "difficulty" with this theory is that too many other "forces" are ignored. Harley's "need" forces are NOT the only ones at work in the dynamics of human relations. To believe so, is VERY dangerous, and places far too much responsibility (and blame) on the shoulders of the BS.

***So , if they are not for survival , what are they for?***

They are meant to reinforce and strengthen the bond between a married couple on a daily, hourly, moment-by-moment basis, so that the marriage can thrive long-term.

That's what they're for.
Mulan

Ka-Ching!!!

Great Answer, Mulan!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Honestly, I dont understand why some ppl have a problem with this concept. If your own WS' affair did not happen becuase of unmet needs, then so be it. What is there to argue about?

I am always puzzled that when this concept doens't apply, that folks feel compelled to argue that the concept EVEN EXISTS. WHY? You know very well it DOES exist in many situations, so whats the problem?

Just say it doens't apply to you and move on. But don't you dare say it DOESN'T EXIST when I know it does! It is perfectly applicable in many situations.

In my H's affair, unmet needs were NEVER an issue. I know that, he knows that, our MB C knows that. So we accept that and move on. I don't feel compelled to come here and REJECT the very experiences of others just because I have not experienced it myself. I don't understand that.

On the other hand, in my last marriage, I treated him like a dog and withheld sex for months on end. The marriage was SO BAD because of unmet needs that he was vulnerable to an affair. I may as well have set up the date with the OW for him! He was a walking affair waiting to happen. As Dr. Harley said, "if you are no longer in love, you are vulnerable to an affair."

So, I have been on both sides of this fence. But even if I hadn't, why would I come here and tell someone they had not experienced what they claim just because I have NOT?

And one other thing. I bet it is not uncommon that we only hear ONE SIDE of the story around here. I referred a friend to this forum whose W was in an affair. I KNOW for a fact that he is the KING of LOVEBUSTERS and has been for years. But you would have NEVER known it from his posts. You would have thought he was the husband of the year who being plagued by his ungrateful, evil wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I am just saying that sometimes we don't get the full story.

***I think many (not all) WS's feel entitled to having all their "needs" met, like a hog at the trough, no matter what the cost.***

Bull's-eye.

(Or maybe "hog's-eye.")
Mulan

THIS IS SUCH A GREAT POST, IMO that I am posting it again for EXCLAMATION...

DISCLAIMER: I'm feeling MUSHY and GIDDY today...

I JUST LOVE MELODY....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mimi! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Using the dictionary definition:

NEEDS: A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted: crops in need of water; a need for affection.

Military training taught me Survival Needs are required to sustain life.

From that I would take Marriage/Relationship Needs to be a requirement to sustain the marriage/relationship.

Obviously not a life or death survival requirement, but a successful relationship survival requirement.

Hi ML,

The "problem" with the concept is that it's portrayed as the be all and end all of human relational theory (is there such as phrase). IMO, this is a dangerous belief. At one point in time, people thought the earth was flat. This "model" fit with the information available at the time, but caused all manner of difficulty because the model was wrong.

My fear is that current conventional wisdom re. "needs fulfillment" and "affair proofing" may be equally flawed. Even now we see far too many exceptions to this "conventional wisdom". Let's not be foolhardy enough to believe that there aren't a great many more forces at work, and that this "theory" answers all the questions re. why. It doesn't, and I respectfully submit, never will.

None of us should be required to take responsibility for keeping a partner happy enough that he or she won't do what they should never be willing to do anyway.

BTW, no one said these "need" forces don't exist, just that they are not the cause of infidelity.

This is an interesting discussion to me. Some considered opinions, based on my experience and observations:

Some people have ENs within a romantic relationship that are, for the lack of a better word, bottomless. Needs that are more like addictions. And like addicts, they come to feel entitled to have those needs met no matter what.

A great many WS have an epiphany of sorts about ENs shortly after they come here. You can actually see it happening. They realize ENs are a very good excuse to latch onto. It's like, hey, yeah, ENs. That's it, that’s why I had my A, or A's. ENs are a handy excuse for their decisions and uncontrollable actions early in the process. They can save face this way.

Later, after withdrawal and introspection, they start to sound different. ENs become less important and boundaries, morals and ethics start to rise to the top. It's kind of wonderful to watch, IMO.

ENs and LBs were not much of a factor in my FWW’s VLTA. It was a serious lack of boundaries throughout her life, morals and ethics that had never been seriously tested before, a blatant opportunity with a stud half way around the world where she knew she would never get caught, and in the final analysis she just wanted to try the experience on for size. But then she fell in love with OM, withdrew from the M and fence sat with the best of them. A strong sense of entitlement has always been part of her personality.

In her case, she had an A because she could, and she stayed in the A because she loved him more than she ever has loved me.

My point is, she stayed in the M all that time because I was meeting her top ENs very well in spite of her resistance. She stayed in the A because she got one or two (not even in her top five) ENs met there too –she even admits these ENs were not even met very well by OM. Just enough to keep her coming back for more.

So, missing ENs are not the root cause of her A. I strongly suspect missing ENs are not the root cause in the majority of cases.

Otherwise, since none of my ENs were met for well over a decade, and I was being continually LB'd like crazy, someone please tell me where my A is waiting for me. Is it my turn now? You guys and your EN's imply it is.

No, it is more of a basic personality trait, IMO.

With prayers,

edit: clarity

Aphelion..you said...



But we are speaking of the specific needs met in a ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP..not ALL needs...



Read Mel's post again. Because it was not true in your situation, Aphelion, I don't think it's fair for you to assume this is not so in the MAJORITY OF CASES. I've been guilty of the opposite and I acknowledge that. It would be like me saying that MOST AFFAIRS are due to unmet needs because it was DEFINITELY TRUE in my situation. My H had high moral character before his A and does again now. My failure to meet his ENs definitely made him VULNERABLE to have an affair...He is now guilty and ashamed about it...because once out of HIS ADDICTION..he is now again himself...

I am not saying this to discount your experience...so why discount the experience of me and others...why not be open to what we are sharing...

Ron, I have never seen it presented as the be-all and end-all. Nowhere is it presented as the absolute cause in every case. Thinking people can discern for themselves if it has relevance or not to their situations. If it doesn't, no problem, no harm done; just move onto the next step. No call for alarm. Belief in its relevance does not rule out other mitigating factors.

Folks can ask themselves: "does this apply to me or not?" If not, they can move on to the next stage. If so, they can proceed accordingly. But is it profoundly silly to come here and argue about it. THERE IS NOTHING TO ARGUE ABOUT. It DOES apply to some and that can't be denied.

It is a generalization, and thinking folks know that every generalization has exceptions. But you don't throw out a generalization because you have discovered an exception, becuase that is the nature of a generalization.

And far from being "dangerous," Marriage Builders principles have been a livesaver for untold marriages in this country. That ain't dangerous.

If the theory doesn't apply to you, then so be it. Accept it and move on. But don't try to assert that it isn't very valid in many, many cases. IT IS. Just because you didn't experience it, doesn't mean others have not.

Also, I don't believe we SEE as many "exceptions" as we think we do. From my EXPERIENCE here, I have seen that we often get a very one sided story that may not closely align with reality. Dr. Harley claims that in his practice, MOST of the affairs stemmed from marriages that were in a vulnerable state from unmet needs. I tend to trust his clinical experience as he is better able to discern one's honesty than we are here because he hears both sides.

I started the post with, "Some considered opinions, based on my experience and observations:"

It is my experience, yes, but I also see it to varying degree in the majority of cases around here.

But not in every case, I admit.

I edited the other sentence since I did mean what you wrote.

From HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS

p. 17

"When a man and woman marry, they share high expectations. They commit themselves to meeting certain intense and intimate needs in each other on an exclusive basis. Each agrees to "forsake all others," giving each other the exclusive right to meet these intimate needs. That does not imply that all needs are to be met by a spouse, but that there are a few basic needs that most of us strictly reserve for the marriage bond. Most people expect their spouses to meet these SPECIAL needs, since they have agreed not to allow anyone else to meet them.

Thanks, I get really annoyed when others tell me my experience is NOT VALID just because they didn't experience it. How silly is that??

I was told last week that my feelings about the death of my son and the loss of my 20 yr marriage [in comparing the gravity of each tragedy] were simply not valid and I didn't appreciate that one bit. I was told there "was no comparison" by someone who had never been through either experiences. Its' one thing to reject a principle, but another entirely to REJECT someone's experiences and subsequent feelings.

Mel,

I cannot even imagine the death of a child. DS may not even be mine, but I don't think I could go on any more if something happened to him.

Mimi,

The "needs model" works for you. With this there is NO problem. The problem arises when the "professional sector" holds this theory out (and a great many suffering BS's accept it) as gospel. It's one thing to accept a belief for one's self, it's quite another to "preach" this theory and portray it as fact when the theory flies in the face of so much evidence. That's the "problem".

Ron, it is gospel in many cases. What matters is that it is applied where it is relevant. If it's not relevant to you, then reject it and move on. Other folks are bright enough to make such a determination. No harm done. No problem.

Ron-you said:


What EVIDENCE are you referring to?

Oh ML,

I respect you immensely. It is NOT my intent to denegrate your thoughts, feelings, or experiences.

My difficulty is with the "professional community". My fear is that this community has latched onto this "needs fulfilment thing" at the exclusion of soooo much more. Soooo much more research, so much more understanding. The book, the websites, even Dr. Harley offer us the EN theory to the relative exclusion of so much. "The danger" is this relative exclusion and the unnecessary burden of guilt being shifted to the BS.

You're right, every situation is different, and yet how often is the new BS bombarded with the "EN stuff"...what were/are your spouses ENs...were you meeting your spouses ENs...have you done the EN questionaire...All too often the presumption is that the BS failed to meet ENs and this caused the affair. THIS I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH!

Two people had an affair...only one of which comes from the marital union...IMO, EN's theory leaves the other marital partner holding some (if not most) of the responsiblity.

INFIDELITY IS A CHOICE, NOT A REFLEXIVE RESPONSE TO A SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES


We're off track here somehow. The original discussion (I thought) involved the "why did it happen" question.

Mimi,

Take a married couple...BP/Squid, Believer/husband, WAT/wife, Aphelion/wife...pick a couple where one spouse has engaged in infidelity. Since both were in the same relationship, for the same amount of time, subjected to the same (more or less) "stressors", EN's (perhaps) not being met all around; why did only one cheat? No need to go into the area of serial infidelity, ONS, EAs through game rooms or chat, or so many other aberrations.

EN theory does not answer the "why" question!

EN theory may be useful for strengthening a marital union. It is not useful in answering the "why" question.

Ron-

It seems you're are only looking at one part of Dr. Harley's affair proof equation. What about eliminating LB's? POJA? 15 hrs/wk of undivided attention (which Harley stresses is a huge asset to a strong marriage). It seems that the argument is from the Taker's perspective. As someone else pointed out I made the committment to forsake all others, not only to have my needs met (mainly by my h) but to also concentrate on meeting my h's needs. I am already happy within myself and could stand alone if I had to. But I choose to meet my H's needs (whether reciprocated or not) because that is what I promised ten years ago infront of God and friends.

I agree that the argument of unmet needs for having an affair is fallible. But that does not make it invalid.

Dr. Harley's principles are based on the his experience as a counselor (so he his speaking to the majotrity of what he's seen come through his door). Does it work for everyone? Of course not. Every marriage/relationship dynamic is different. Again as ML has stated. If it doesn't work for you, move on, and hopefully you can find some guidance where it does apply.

I agree, Ron. There's a zillion different reasons as to WHY my H cheated and I did not.

One way of looking at this, IMO, is what will answering the WHY question do for the recovering the marriage?

MB is basically, in many respects a BEHAVIORAL SYSTEM..that is PRACTICAL..so to speak..saying THIS IS WHAT ONE DOES TO RECOVER THE MARRIAGE...

It takes ONE ASPECT of the EQUATION..SPECIAL NEEDS met EXCLUSIVELY between ROMANTIC PARTNERS COMMITTED TO EACH OTHER...When we marry, we promise to meet these needs only within the context of marriage. When we recover, we promise to do that again..thereby, THE RULES OF MARITAL RECOVERY...

OK let's try this:

You want to create/recreate the "warm & fuzzy" feelings between two willing partners in a relationship...EN theory wins! I don't know of anyone who would argue it's effectiveness.

Explain why an affair happened, or to ensure that inifdelity will not happen again...EN theory fails!

Like every other "tool", it has a place and use. Unfortunately IMO, this tool is too frequently misused.

Saw this on another site...thought it was interesting:
----

PBS is running a three part series on Sunday evenings about some families who re-live the frontier days, moving out to Montana somewhere in the wilderness and settling.

They aired a similar series a couple of years ago using a colonial time period back east.

Been interesting to watch.

Part II was on this past Sunday and part of the focus was on how the families were adjusting, particularly the marriages...approaching the subject of sexual relationships in such settings, etc.

Gotta admit, I was more engrossed watching the Masters Golf tournament, but would flip back and forth some.

I did hear one comment while checking in with the 'frontiers-men-wannabes' and heard one of the husbands make a statement that has stuck with me.

Basically, he said that the 21st century version of himself was far more preoccupied with his relationship with his wife. MUCH more so than the '18th century' version.

I found that interesting and wondered if back in earlier times, people...couples were so much more consumed with mere survival...trying to stay alive...fed...warm...etc.

But since those 'luxuries' are things we easily take for granted today, it's no wonder we have more time on our hands to sit around and dwell on our 'personal needs' and all the marital issues that arise and often lead to divorce or affairs, etc.

Not true in my case..

FOR SURE....Explained why the affair happened and insures that it will not happen again ...

I meet my H's primary emotional needs and he meets mine...

Certainly not previously the case for many, many years in our marriage...

PLAN A then PLAN B then RECOVERY...A NEW ME, A NEW HIM, A NEW MARRIAGE...ALL THREE...

Have you read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS?

That explains all of this best....

Mimi,

"One way of looking at this, IMO, is what will answering the WHY question do for the recovering the marriage?"

For recovering the marriage...very little. For keeping it recovered (as in no further infidelity)...everything! Why else go through the recovery process without answering the "why" question.

Don't know of many of us, on either side of this, that want the "pleasure" of this experience again.

I meant knowing ALL of the whys...prior to Recovery...

We continue to look at the WHYs now...

First, we had to do the surgery to get rid of all the cancer...

We did not stop to try to figure out HOW and WHY we got cancer....

B4Long thinks like me. I really believe that we have it too good now days. I have many, many friends from a very poor part of Mexico. They all have been married for a long time, and their wives say they are happily married. Being happy down there means you could afford to buy some rice and beans to put on the table today.

I always advise people to check out the EN section, and to make changes in themselves first. I think it is important to consider.

On the other hand, I think it is dangerous for ANYONE, BS or WS to think that someone is going to come along and meet all their needs and make them happy.

Again, I say your spouse is not expected to meet ALL of your needs. Dr. Harley says this..

mimi,

A question I have been asking myself for a while now:

What do you think will happen under the EN theory of infidelity if you get sick, lose your job, or say a family member gets sick and requires a majority of your attentions, for an extended period of time?

According to ENs, your H is preordained to have another A.

Myself, I cannot live with that prognosis. I need more than met ENs to feel safe now.

Much more. After all, I was meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs all along yet the VLTA happened anyway.

At the same time, none of my ENs were being met and I was being LB'd all the time, yet I did not have an A, even with many opportunities.

How about requiring something from our spouses in return for met ENs like: morals, ethics, boundaries and keeping promises even when difficult? These traits should have been part of their personality all along, but obviously were not. At least not sufficiently to prevent the A

IMO there needs to be formal recognition that the adulterer chose based on their internal mores and that they have to change these mores, ENs met or not. Otherwise, what have they learned that they can use to protect your M in the future? You will not be at his side ready to run in with a loaded EN the next time he is tempted on a business trip, right?

You know, I've been thinking lately, it’s better never to marry.

With prayers,

A~
This thread just caught my eye and I have not read everything but you raise a good question.

My gut feel is EN's are big piece of the puzzle. Let's not loose sight of the big picture. The first thing is what?
I think 1) Open and Honest... In my mind this means open line of communcation, which is the real reason affairs happen.
There is no longer a safe and open line of communication between spouses. We must work to make sure each spouse feels safe to share everything in there thoughts and mind. This builds trust in each other and understanding which is key for the rough spots.
When a spouse gets ill and the EN's can not be met, there must be understanding and communication to deal with it.

This is just my belief's.

Isn't POJA the opportunity to put boundaries in place? WHy are we only concentrating on EN's (or lack thereof)as the reason. I don't believe that EN's was the only part of affair-proofing that Dr. Harley is speaking to.

The reason why the EN theory fits so much in my situation, Aphelion is that my H was HIGHLY MORAL and ETHICAL, THE EPITOME OF A GOODY-TWO-SHOES all throughout his life..except for the time of his A...

My H was very loving and attentive towards me for many, many years..just like he is now....he was ALMOST PERFECT..treated me like a Princess...I was SPOILED...in many ways....

As to the Whys..he fits the perfect description of a man who had a MLC and tried to leave the good stuff behind to take a walk on the wild side...

Now he is like your stereotype of a reformed smoker...He talks very negatively about affairs and people who have affairs, is extremely ashamed about what he did..is tearful at the even thought or mention of it...

I could almost go back to being the old me and make the assumption that he could never have an affair..no, not my H...

But I have also changed and will give highest priority in my life to my marriage. The important thing is for him to know and believe in MY COMMITMENT to this..regardless of whether I have an illness..a sick child or a sick parent..He is trying to convince me to stop working so that does not apply...meeting my own EN here to be productive and make a contribution to society (are you listening, Believer?)

I NO LONGER WILL TAKE HIM FOR GRANTED..that was one of my biggest mistakes...I assumed that he would always be GOOD..always be FAITHFUL..regardless of what I did..YUCK...How selfish of me...

I don't accept the blame for him having an affair..I am at fault for NOT TENDING TO OUR MARRIAGE...There's a real big difference in that...

Mimi,

“…my H was HIGHLY MORAL and ETHICAL, THE EPITOME OF A GOODY-TWO-SHOES all throughout his life...except for the time of his A...”

"I NO LONGER WILL TAKE HIM FOR GRANTED..that was one of my biggest mistakes...I assumed that he would always be GOOD..always be FAITHFUL..regardless of what I did. YUCK...How selfish of me..."

I fully accept everything you write as your valid experience and successful approach to your situation - except the implied synergism between these two statements.

Sometimes I am reminded of the old woman and the snake story. You know, she gets bitten and the snake says, “What did you expect? You knew I was poisonous when you took me in.” If you did not trust your spouse did you knowingly marry a snake? Probably not.

It seems obvious to me his mores were not in fact as stellar, as deeply rooted, as you once believed. Otherwise, he would have passed the test…

And, I see no selfishness on your part, at all. If we cannot trust, there is no intimate relationship to start with. You should not fault yourself for assuming and relying on his ethics. He did promise you fidelity before God, family and community. How could you not believe him?

With prayers,

You are saying a lot here..

Our situation is certainly not as simplistic as I presented it in my post.

You are right. I put my H up on a high pedestal where he did not want to be. (Low Orbit speaks to this well.) He struggled to stay on this pedal to please me, assuming that I would not accept him for who he really is. He swung all the way to the opposite extreme during his A..walk on the wild side..I suppose that the OW accepted anything and everything about him..Well, she gave the impression..YUCK..that's not a real give and take relationship as we well know...

In our new relationship..I accept and acknowledge that the REAL him is somewhere there in the middle...he does not want to be on a pedestal but does not want to be do the fake acceptance of everything about him...POJA is what we do...

In the past,he felt that he had to put on some facade for me that he could not keep up..did not want to keep up...

I still see my real H as basically a good and decent person..Well, he strives to be that person..I think he is a wonderful person and I respect and value so much about him. I am so thankful that he is back and not the WH and I have found him again...



I do not fault myself for assuming and relying on his ethics. He made a vow to me that he definitely broke...

However, I feel that we all can sin and fall short because we are human and imperfect.. He has asked and begged for my forgiveness and I have forgiven him wholeheartedly.

These are some of the WHYS that Ron is talking about that have become more apparent during Recovery....

Wow, this is hard work...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So true Mimi. And I'm glad to see you saying that.

I wish you and your spouse well in your recovery. EN's, POJA, no LBs, 15 hours, etc. are all wonderful means of building/re-building a mutually satisfying relationship.

I'm heartened to see that you and your spouse are continuing to search for the "why" also. It's my honest belief that until that question is answered (and addressed) to both parties satisfaction, the relationship will remain vulnerable. BUT once accomplished...aaaah, makes me smile to think about it!

This recovery "stuff" is one instance where it's not the end that justifies the means, but just the opposite...the means justifies the end!

And just for the record...

I have just as many "problems" embracing the "$h!t Happens", "Everything Happens for a Reason", and "The Devil Made Me Do It" models for explaining the cause(s) of infidelity as I do with the "EN model"!!

I've responded to everyone's email <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Plank, got any more room under the rock of yours? Sounds more inviting then some of the destinations I've been invited to go.

Very interesting topic, Daisy !

After much reading and thinking about the EN's and what part
they may have played in WH's A, I've been torn.
WH has never done the EN survey, but if I try to do it as
I think he would, I feel like I met all his EN's very well
throughout our marriage. I don't feel that he met my EN's
very well at all though, but I've never had an affair or
looked to someone else to meet them-

So, this makes me wonder how much of his getting involved in an A had to do with EN's, and how much of it were other things like MLC, SA, boredom, disrespect, lack of morals, lack of character, lack of committment, depression, etc...
and makes it harder to figure out what I could have done
any differently.

Some of these thoughts relate to some things that WH has
talked about recently in his IC, which I had never heard
him say before. He's mentioned several times that he felt
our M was "safe and stable", but that he didn't always think
it was "good" to be "safe and stable". To me, he is equating
"safe and stable" with BORING ?!
When I asked for more detail, he said he would like to have
more "excitement", be more "spontaneous", not always have
a "plan", take some "risks", do different things and be out
of the same old routine. Said he felt like he'd like someone
else to have ideas and make plans, not just him.
I found these comments interesting, as I feel like I was the
one who always wanted to do things, suggested activities,
made the plans and asked him to participate, only to often
have my ideas "shot down", and him not have any better idea.

Another thing he mentioned was that he never felt like he
was being "challenged". When getting into more detail, he
talked about this in relation to his job/career, and how
he felt a lot of drive to succeed, make more money, work
his "way up", eventually have his own business, etc. and
wanted to be with someone who had the same drive/ambition
so it would "challenge" him.
Said he felt like I was content to just stick in a stable job, not necessarily make more or move up the chain. I would
say this is true to some degree, as I have enjoyed my same
job and career field for a long time now, and even though
it's not a high paying field, have become very good at it,
worked my way "up" and taken advantage of the benefits and
all I could (I am in the travel industry).
He specifically brought up that he felt I had a good chance
to change career fields when I lost my long-term job (about
1.5 yrs ago due to loss of govt contract) and that instead
of venturing out on something new, took another job in the
same field, at lower pay, and he considered this as my
"copping" out, which made him lose a little respect for me.
(Of course, he doesn't mention that he never said anything
about this to me at the time, the fact that only having one
income while I went to school would have been difficult,
that he's had no ideas of what else I could do, etc.).

So, now I'm not only boring, but don't challenge WH, and he
feels I'm just "plodding" along in a poor job too !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I would assume some of this is his trying to find things to
"justify" the A, but I also think there's probably some
truth behind his comments too. Are these issues of my not
meeting some EN's ? Is this MLC "talk" of WH wanting the
perfect, ambitious, money-making, gorgeous "trophy" wife
who "challenges" him ?
Later, I asked WH how I could "challenge" him, and he said
"if you have to ask, you obviously can't do it", which
certainly was no help and not very nice either.
Guess OW must make him feel challenged, although I think of
everything with her is a "game". I don't know anything
about her income, but believe she is a salesperson for a
medical or pharmaceutical company, which to me equates to
"sales" (same as I do), and isn't a big "power" career !
Slammed

I don't mean to butt in but I just read this entire topic and didn't see anyone mention that the Harley's don't just believe unmet EN's cause affairs. Unmet EN's can make the M more vulnerable to an affair but the WS gets into an affair b/c they did not protect their weaknesses. The sole responsibility of the affair still lies with the WS.

In a case of the EN's not being met due to an illness... this would not CAUSE the affair. It would definately create vulnerability but the spouses are still responsible for protecting their weaknesses! I'm not sure where this would be stated in the website or the books but Steve Harley clearly states this during his sessions. I know he has stated it to me and I read a post on here from a FWW that he told her that too.

This is why some of us have affairs and some of us don't. My WH did not meet many of my needs for most/all of our marriage and he was verbally abusive to me, yet he is the one that had the affair. I used to question this, wait how is it that I wasn't having my needs met but I didn't get into an A so why did he. Well, guess what we were both vulnerable but I protected myself from it and he didn't. The responsibility still lies with him. If we had been doing a better job at meeting each other's EN's our M would not have been as vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that an A still wouldn't have happened. It still comes down to protecting your weaknesses.

Don't know if I did a good job explaining this so I copy and pasted below the post I read on the recovery board about protecting your weaknesses.

Post by KariJean


("Greetings. For those of you who know nothing about me, I am the FWW, in recovery for 7 weeks now. Going through MC with SH. Just thought I'd share what I've learned from SH regarding protecting one's weaknesses, because I think this understanding is missing in many threads here.

I had an A because I didn't protect my weaknesses. If you are a WS or FWS, you had your A for the exact same reason. There is NO OTHER reason or cause for an A. Allow me to give you the example SH gave me, because I didn't truely understand this concept until he gave me this explanation.

First Scenerio:
Let's say you are married, and for several years you have not felt like your spouse has been meeting any of your EN's (although you didn't know what to call your EN's at the time). You felt lonely, unloved, and weren't sure you felt any love toward your spouse any longer. You were depressed about all of the above. You start talking to a co-worker one day, and find the attention and compliments they give you to be very flattering. You find yourself looking forward to seeing this person at work. After a few weeks, this person invites you to lunch, or out for a couple of drinks. You continue to share more and more with this person. Before you realize it, this person has taken the place of your spouse, and are meeting so many of your EN's that you fall in love with this OP.

Second Scenerio:
You are married. In your opinion, happily married. You and your spouse share your deepest thoughts and emotions. You work hard at meeting each other's EN's. There is nothing you would change in your M. You start talking to a co-worker one day, and find the attention and compliments they give you to be very flattering. You find yourself looking forward to seeing this person at work. After a few weeks, this person invites you to lunch, or out for a couple of drinks. You continue to share more and more with this person. Before you realize it, this person has taken the place of your spouse, and are meeting so many of your EN's that you fall in love with this OP.

Okay, here's where the lesson comes. In both scenerios, a spouse ends up falling in love with another person. Did the spouse in scenerio #2 fall in love because their EN's were not being met? NO. They fell in love because they DID NOT PROTECT THEIR WEAKNESSES. Now they are in love with 2 different people.

Did the poor condition of the M in scenerio #1 contribute to the spouse being more suseptible to having an A? Quite possible. But again, they didn't fall in love because their EN's weren't being met. They fell in love because they DID NOT PROTECT THEIR WEAKNESSES.

What are some examples of weaknesses? I have several, so allow me to share this with you. I have an incredible inability to express my deepest feelings and emotions with anyone, including my H. When I began feeling empty in our M, rather than discuss this with him, I chose to allow someone else to make deposits into my love bank. Before I knew what had happened, I fell in love with this OP. I chose not to tell my H how I was feeling. Heck, I don't think I was even honest with myself! But enough about my situation, I want people reading this to grasp this concept in the worst way. IMO, this is a huge stepping stone toward recovery in anyone's M that's had an A involved. It's important for BOTH spouses to understand this concept. It makes the WS accountable for their choices. It allows the BS freedom from feeling like their spouse had an A because they weren't meeting his/her EN's. It reduces the chance for the BS to blame the whole thing on themselves.

I hope this post has made sense to at least some of the great people here on this forum. I'd be happy to clarify anything if I can.

Make it a great day,

KJ")

This is exactly what I mean. Slammed1 asks, "what I could have done any differently?" How could Slammed1 have prevented her husband from cheating? All too often (unfortunately), the knee-jerk response is...shoulda kept him happy...happy, contented partners don't cheat...obviously there was something wrong with the marriage...what emotional needs weren't YOU meeting. The BS hears this ad nauseum.

The BS is bombarded with things they should or could have done to prevent their spouse from cheating. WHAT UTTER NONSENSE!! Let's ask the victim to also be the guilty party in this sick scenario! NOTHING, short of locking up our spouse, can a BS do to prevent cheating.

Sammed1, there is NOTHING you could have done to prevent your husband from cheating. Either he has character and morals and the necessary faculties to distinguish right from wrong, or he doesn't. That's NOT to say that these can never be developed, only that at that point in time, when he "dropped trou" and went for it, he did not. Not to be graphic here, but you didn't pull his pants down, you didn't roll him on top of her. You didn't make him cheat...not that day...not the day before....not the week before...not the month before!

Slammed1, your husband wants to be "challenged"? Allow me to suggest this: Ask him to repair/replace his moral compass, ask him to take a real hard look at his character, ask him to define what is right and what is wrong, ask him if his actions reflect how HE would like to be treated. By all means help him in this "challenge", but do not assume his burden.

We all need to be "challenged" to be better than we are. We all need to work to improve ourselves. We do not need to assume another sins. Only Christ could (and did) do that for us...

Don't agree. The very first moment that my H cheated he knew what he was doing was wrong. He knows now that what he did was wrong. Yes, there are those with faulty character who cheat but this CANNOT BE SAID FOR ALL CHEATERS...

None of us are free from the ability to SIN...

Slammed:

Keep in mind that your this is your WH talking now..

Most of what he says now is aimed at justifying his A..

The ENs issue is pertinent prior to the beginning of the A...

I was clueless like you, thinking that I was meeting my H's ENs..well, I didn't know the terminology then...

But, I was way off base...

Have you talked with Steve Harley?

Steve is the one who REALLY HELPED ME TO UNDERSTAND and STEVE was SOOOO CORRECT....

In my first session with Steve, I was self-righteous and determined to present myself as the BEST WIFE...

He set me straight....

Not saying that this is necessarily true in your situation...

I'm warning you again to not to take too much stock in what your H is saying now to you and to your therapists...

THE FOG IS REAL..and your H is a FOGGY WS....He seems to know how to use psychological jargon to his benefit to PLAY YOU and his COUNSELOR...

inadaze

thanks for sharing

you have some great information

Inadaze makes a great point that I have also been thinking...

The other part of this is that the WS begins to ALLOW..someone else other than their wife/husband to meet ENs that are ONLY supposed to be met exclusively in a marriage...

This has to do with WEAKNESSES..VULNERABILITIES..and all sorts of things...

Once these particular ENs begin to be met with another person..YOU FALL IN LOVE...according to this theory....

It does not necessarily have to do with BAD CHARARACTER..

It also has to do with LOOSE BOUNDARIES...

It's like you cross over a line that was meant to be blocked and once you keep crossing over that line you are caught..

I read somewhere for example that if you begin to smoke more than 4 cigarettes/day that you are addicted....

There might be a certain no. of phone calls to a person of the opposite sex..there might be certain topics of conversation with someone of the opposite sex...

It's essential to maintain boundaries..that you do not allow yourself to cross over...

In a WEAK MOMENT or a VULNERABLE TIME in your life..during some sort of crisis...you might be LESS CAREFUL about this...especially if their are VULTURES or EVIL FORCES swarming around...

But he did it anyway... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

No disrespect Mimi, but why did your husband do what "he knew..was wrong"?

Because he is human and makes mistakes...he was tempted like Adam in the garden of Eden...

Don't you do anything wrong, Ron? I'm sure you are not a Saint. I surely am not...

I took cookies from the cookie jar..

Eventually, he became addicted to her.

He is very sorry about what he has done.

My H is WONDERFUL NOW..He definitely HAS CHARACTER and MORALS...

I've been meaning to respond to this for a couple of days now...hope I haven't lost the moment...



This is a very good question to ask. If we were talking about EN theory as a stand-alone, you'd be precisely correct. But Harley doesn't. EN theory must be taken in the context of other martial behavior theories. In past discussions, we've note that having an affair really requires four things: 1) Unmet ENs render the WS vulnerable, 2) Marital behavior patterns allow for the development and maintenance of an EMR, 3) An opportunity in the form of a willing affair partner and 4) An emotional shift or rift in the WS that results in adjustment of values to rationalize an affair.

So, in the case of what you have postualted above, with an ill or invalid spouse, it's likely one could meet conditions 1 and 2, rendering them extremely vulnerable to an affair.

In fact, affairs do happen often in those situations.

I believe a few of us DID mention this.

Ron, When this is brought up here, it's usually not in the context of assigning blame. The blame for the affair always lies with the WS. I believe a good number of BSs fear that if they acknowledge that they didn't do a good job meeting their spouses' needs, it means that THEY are to blame.

Not true!

When failure to address EN's is brought up in Plan A and in Recovery, the BS is encouraged to address them to rebuild the relationship AND to reduce the probability of future infidelity. Most BSs, like mimi, find that there are some things that they could be doing better. Her marriage is stronger for it. Do you think it would have been better if she had refused to reflect on her behavior because, surely, that didn't cause the affair? I don't think so.

I think it would be pretty easy to draw a correlation between people who were emotionally unfulfilled people and infidelity. Hard cause and effect? No. Increased probability? Absolutely.

Toss in three other factors (see my above post) and, viola, you have an affair.

Also, I take issue with those who think human beings are psychologically static. Human beings are DYNAMIC creatures. Our value systems vary wildly pending circumstances and moods. NO ONE is the same person they were 5 minutes ago. People are constantly changing. THIS is the ONLY thing you can be absolutely sure of.

To imply a person who has an affair is somehow fundamentally broken denies that person the power to change it. I had a lot of people try to convince my wife that I was of low character and would never change (once a cheater, always a cheater). If I had bought into their thinking, I would've given up immediately. There would be NO point in this forum or ANY OTHER LIKE IT. Infidelity should mean INSTANT divorce.

The same thinking applies to any other misbehavior. Why should we let crimanls of ANY sort out fo prison. Won't they simply do it again? Nope...lock them up for life. Get a speeding ticket? Impound your car and pull your license...it's in your nature isn't it? Speeders are of low moral fiber, aren't they?

Low

Very well said Low.



I love this. To me it is the same as labeling people (huge disagreement on this board re: labeling).

Who are they (labels) really serving? The person who gets the label...or the person issuing it?

We can help impower people to change? Wow what a concept! What a wonderful, wonderful concept.

Low,

Thanks. You say so eloquently what I want to say about this and/or have been trying to say about this issue.

What you said here is key:



Devastated, I discovered that my H was having an Affair and he was "in love" with the OW...giving up everything for a life with her. YUCK...

This was a SINKING SHIP..

MB was a LIFE RAFT..

Not sure where I first got the notion..the book SAA..this forum..Steve Harley..or all three... I decided that if I was able to demonstrate my ability to meet the primary ENs in a romantic relationship my H had a good chance of falling in love with me again..

At that point, I was not focusing on the WHYs of his A as much as developing A PLAN to bring an END to it..in whatever way that I could...

This is a PLAN that I BELIEVED IN..this is a PLAN that I thought would work for ME...

It is A PLAN that continues to work very effectively for US...

I did a lot of this on FAITH...

Then I went back and did much of the analysis..

"Because he is human and makes mistakes...he was tempted like Adam in the garden of Eden..."

Ah..."the devil made me (him) do it"... Made Flip Wilson famous. As I mentioned above, that's one of the scenarios to which I do not subscribe. That having been said, I am ABSOLUTELY certain that satan is the tempter. But he CAN NOT make us do anything. We give in to temptations by our own choosing, and not at satan's command. While we may blame our yielding to temptation on whoever (or whatever) we want, I believe both of us know that it's a conscious choice. My quest is to understand what weakness allows some to yeld to temptation and others to turn their back.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Mimi.

"Ron, When this is brought up here, it's usually not in the context of assigning blame. The blame for the affair always lies with the WS. - LOW, that's exactly what I said to Slammed1 on the previous page in response to her query...[/b]
"what I could have done any differently?"[/i]

As I stated there, all too frequently the assertion is made that the BS could have done something to have prevented the infidelity.

Your "requires four things" is interesting. Are you able to point me to any discussion regarding this...either here at MB or elsewhere?


Did no one read what I wrote...[i]"Sammed1, there is NOTHING you could have done to prevent your husband from cheating. Either he has character and morals and the necessary faculties to distinguish right from wrong, or he doesn't. That's NOT to say that these can never be developed, only that at that point in time, when he "dropped trou" and went for it, he did not. ...NO implication of anyone's inability to change. As a matter of fact...quite the opposite! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Good people, I'm not in recovery...I have nothing to recover, and I have no desire to be quarrelsome or demean anyone. I simply wish to gain an understanding of WHY.

Yeah well I met his needs for 30 years, and he still cheated because he said he wanted to PARTY! Well party he did.

Hey, Ron...I'll help ya out...

A statistic for your WHY...

Permissions. I gave myself permission to have A's, verbally abuse, live disrespectfully...how can that have been in my moral compass?

Same way I believe we all get there...entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. Doesn't look, taste or feel immoral to us...we're justified. And yes, we use ENs as our fuel...for our whole lives...I'm being hurt and I look outside myself for where it is coming from...just like I look outside for love and find out where it is coming from...

Feeding ourselves from the outside in, gives us permission to destroy. Righteously.

Morals aren't about being happy...they are about living well. A lot of us FWS were ill-informed, chose to believe the former. If we didn't steal, murder, abandon, physically abuse, cheat on our taxes, rape or pillage...then we were moral and deserved to be happy. We had no idea we weren't living true.

I had the necessary faculties to distinguish right from wrong...I had no independent code to live by, only react to...all that others did to me. Not what I did. I was the helpless one, the one ridden over...paving the way for others. Terrible perspective...feels moral, saintly even.

I had no idea you could choose your perspective, your beliefs...not recreate yourself, as I had been doing for years...rather, come to know and understand why I made the choices I did, and had not given myself permission to make my own code.

Now I'm moral and I feel no differently on the inside. I know I will not choose to cheat, abuse or disrespect. I know my power and watch my permissions, minding they come from within me, are within my control, as is my life.

That is what tempted Adam and Eve in the garden...choosing a harmful perspective, humans giving themselves permissions for justification, and God responding...with respectful choice, as he did in our design.

We sin against ourselves everyday that we do not recognize the apple as choice...God's respect for his creation. We do not stay aware we choose our perspective, our beliefs which then give us our feelings...or that we can choose our thoughts.

I believe this is the antidote to failing to meet ENs causes A's...get that there is no EN in entitlement fueled by resentment and lack of respect. Not there. Not about the spouse. About perspective. That fog. Real pain coming from within, seen as if it is coming at them.

Why are meeting ENs a key part of preventing A's? Because marriage is where you can work out who you are, how you operate, safely side by side, with someone else who is working out who they are, how they operate...being loved and accepted, anyway.

Takes O&H, respect, being safe for yourself and your spouse; staying intimate despite your fears; staying aware; and choosing your perspective. And owning all your choices.

LA

Ron - So sorry to hear that you are not in recovery. Even though I have not been able to save my marriage, I still consider myself in recovery. I feel like I have a lot to recover - my self-esteem, my way of life, my future. Hope that you will soon be in recovery too.

LA,

Much...much food for thought in your post. These perspectives I find useful...

Thank you

Did you find it funny that I said there was no EN in entitlement...

I do, now.


LOL

Yeah...food for thought.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Apologies Loworbit if my post left you wondering as to what I was on about.

Sometimes I wonder myself.

Though not sure Ron, as to why you would not be able to place EN's in Maslow's Hierarachy (Love and Beloningness). Seems to me as if its the obvious spot..acceptance, affiliation, connectedness and affection.

If we look at Glasser's 4...EN's fit right in there to.

Hey when we add the Construct Theory...no wonder it all comes tumbling down when adultery strikes.

Max.

Hi Believer,

Funny you should ask about "recovery". I felt (feel) it necessary to state that since SOME viewers of this particular thread, if they bother to read what's written FULLY (which I doubt they have), have chosen to make their opinions of my "questions" and "questioning" rather clear...I should keep my opinions and challenges to myself. SOME thought it devious that I was "challenging" what I perceive to be the predominate dogma, when I wasn't even in recovery. Hence my comment earlier re. responding to everyone's e-mail. So NO I'm not recovering my marriage...as you know for an obvious reason.

Personal recovery, as you describe, hmmmm...honestly NO. That would suggest the "fixing" or "healing" of myself. I've been eviscerated, chewed upon, spit out, and left to rot by all this. All I hope for each day is, with God's grace, to survive. I've put down the recovery books and put off all thoughts of fixing what may be un-fixable. I'm just trying to survive.

Yes, the $h!t sandwich and the guilt trip have left a bad taste in my mouth.

Ron, None of my responses to you was intended to imply any personal motive on your part. For the record, I am NOT in recovery either...I am divorcing after five years of attempted recovery. But my failure is not an indictment of Harley's theories.

You ask excellent questions that allow us to answer what many are thinking but have trouble asking and answering for themselves. We are discussiing one of the most difficult issues a BS has to face. It's simple enough to SAY that the WS is wholly responsible for their affair, but many take a lot longer to become convinced in their heart of that truth. Until then, the BS fears that, in some way, maybe they did cause it, so they fear acknowledging that. I've seen it over and over here.

The question about emotional needs being a valid reason doesn't sprout from curiosity...it's driven by a need to be re-assured that the affair wasn't your fault...becasue you're not convinced yet. When you are, you'll be able to look at your behavior in the marriage in a more objective manner.

Here's an example fo what I'm talking about. aptiva said that she "met all of her husbands needs" but he still left. How does she know this? Did they do an EN survey? I think often, thinking we're meeting our spouses needs is a far cry from KNOWING our spouses needs. So I think it defeatist to assume that you KNOW this...when it's very possible you don't.

During my attempt at recovery, when we did the EN surveys, I found out that the need for an attractive spouse was VERY high on my wife's list...I NEVER KNEW THIS. As a result, I paid extra close attention to body maintenance and style. I learned things that I never imagined I would to try an meet this need. Obviously, this didn't prevent our marriage from collapsing, so that must mean EN theory is wrong...right? I don't think so.

The four things that I mentioned in my previous post are my own conclusions, backed up by my own search for why I did what I did...and analysis of why I won't do it again. It's reinforced by the reason folks here give for their marriage problems; Major life change, emotional neglect, lots of free time and independence, etc. All of these things play into the PROBABILITY of infidelity.

So, I'll retract my conclusions as global, and simply restate them as applicable to me:
1) Emotional Needs - there were several areas where I needed more from my wife. I expressed those requests, but the light never came on for her. So we live for several years in a distant relationship. She remembers it differently.
2) I took a new position that allowed great schedule flexibility. I could always say "I was at work"
3) My ex-OW was also having marital problems and was someone I worked closely with and had always been attracted to. I knew her for 10 years before the affair. People joked that she was my "second wife" because he H was so uninvolved with her.
4) Emotional shift - I experienced a life event that resulted in a severe depression and caused me to abandon my existing value system since I believed I had been betrayed by it.

So, I had all four - unmet ENs, opportunity, a willing partner, and an emotional/value shift.

Unmet needs alone didn't precipitate the affair. Even when combined with a willing partner (ex-OW was around for years), there was no affair. But combined with the falure of my value system and the flexible schedule, everything clicked like clockwork.

In a similar way, people who have depression or value shifts increase the risk of infidelity, but without a marital environment that allows for an undetected relationship, it wouldn't happen.

So, my assertion (and Harley's) all along has been that even in a marriage where ENs are met, if other, more practical policies are not in place, the marriage is at risk.

Let me think of an analogy...mmm...what about riding a motorcycle without a helmet. It's FUN and the rider is HAPPY and FULFILLED. But is that HEALTHY? Nope...he is at risk. I think marriages are similar...failure to institute and establish agreements for accountability (without controlling) is a huge marital mistake.

If my wife and I had been living by Harley's rules BEFORE my A, I don't think my A would have EVER gotten close to happening.

So, in closing, I believe the BS who assumes they knew what their spouses ENs are/were and assumed they were meeting them, as result, won't evaluate their own behavior is doing a great disservice to themselves.

You can NEVER assume you know what your spouses ENs are...thet's why it's important to KEEP ASKING and be attentive. Sometimes, even spouses struggle to put them into words...that's why the EN questionnaire is so valuable.

Low

"I've put down the recovery books and put off all thoughts of fixing what may be un-fixable."

You know Ron53...that is one of the bestest things I have heard in weeks.

Most things we come across are un-fix-able. Life is such a B.Or at least it can be.

Lets just manage( or learn to) them...those in-un-fix-able things.

Max

wow,
What is it around here with 'The Wounded Healer'

"So, in closing, I believe the BS who assumes they knew what their spouses ENs are/were and assumed they were meeting them, as result, won't evaluate their own behavior is doing a great disservice to themselves."

"COU___OFFF"


Max

AMEN!!! I AGREE WITH THIS 100%!!!

The chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS on "SURVIVING AN AFFAIR" is my favorite. I read this chapter often as a refresher..A devoted MB..I know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

These are the the LAST TWO PARAGRAPHS in that chapter..I find these words to be SO ENCOURAGING to ME, PERSONALLY...

P. 178 in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS...

Your Marriage Will Become Stronger Than Ever

When you have finally learned to meet each other's most important emotional needs, your love and your marriage will become stronger than ever. A person who discovers his or her spouse in an affair experiences one of the most severe blows anyone's self-esteem could possibly sustain. It also begins a constant struggle that puts both partners on an emotional roller coaster. But once they have weathered the worst, they discover they love each other more than ever. In fact, many couples tell me they have built a better love relationship than they would have had if the affair had not jolted them into constructive action. The affair provides the traumatic trigger that finally gets the couple working on each other's basic needs. Once you start meeting those basic needs, your marriage becomes what it was supposed to have been all along.

In almost every case that I have counseled, when the couple has faithfully stuck to the program I have laid down, they have developed a better relationship than ever before. People say to me they can never love or trust a spouse again after that spouse has strayed away in an affair. I know this is not true. It is a long and difficult process to restore the relationship, but it can be done!

------------------------------------------------------------
This was a direct quote from the book. I added the words in bold.

I held on to these words and other information in THIS VERY CHAPTER (which I have highlighted in PINK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)..throughout My Plan A and Plan B and now during Recovery...

Dr. Harley's prognosis proved true for MY MARRIAGE. This well explains what has happened in our situation...and continues to be true to this day.

This is the primary basis of my POV on this subject...

i believe the hardest thing for me is acknowledging that i was not meeting my H emotional needs....needs that he never communicated to me and i never understood

and then having him refuse to give me the chance....to give US the chance....to make changes that could have saved our marriage

he left....he lives with OW....he never gave us a chance

so understanding WHY the affair happened and WHAT his emotional needs are and HOW to meet them don't make a difference

Understanding and becoming knowlegdeable regarding the PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS in a ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP will help you in regards to FUTURE RELATIONSHIPS or in RECOVERY with your WH if that happens for you..

I know you don't like this answer, Eav..in that right now you are not planning on future relationships...I am giving this answer for clarity's sake...

i agree with all that you've said mimi

it's just hard to realize that i finally "get" what it takes to have a good marriage.....but i may never get the chance to have that kind of marraige with my h

Again, what ARE you talking about?

But YOU get it. (He doesn't yet; OW doesn't; and they may never GET IT.) That is a victory, of sorts, for those of us looking to validate this low point in our lives. Heck, just comprehending POJA has helped me deal with my peers in and out of the workplace. (Does that make it a win/win/win or a win/win/win/win sich? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )

Well I read it again and really thought for a minute there I was missing someting.

I was not.

eav, I do not know your situation. Just don't place an undue burdon on yourself.

Some marriages actually end/or take a sebatical because of "they do"

and there is not a darn thing you can do about it.

Look after yourself. You have needs to.


Max

What a interesting discussion. I'll throw my hat in the ring. I think Harley and the MB principles have a pretty good grip on marital happiness and infidelity. I think the EN's are really needs. They are a general representation of the most common things that provide people happy experiences in a relationship. I think happy experiences are the lynchpin so to speak.

When people are born and throughout their lives, they are on a solo quest for experiences. People constantly explore the world seeking out new sights, sounds, feelings. They quickly learn a process for this quest. Observe/Invent, experiment, record the results, and repeat. They also quickly learn some of those experiences are pleasurable and others are painful. Each person has there own definition of what is painful and what is pleasureable, but there are probably some general guidelines and these definitions change over time. Based on these results it is human nature to try and maximize the number of pleasureable experiences and minimize the painful ones. Its a cumulative process and thus happy people have had more pleasureable experiences than painful experiences and vice versa. The possible list of potential experiences is infinate. The list of experiences that will be attempted is only constrained by opportunity, prior results, and one's value system. Peoples opportunities, value systems, and prior resuls are all dynamic and influenceable. Finally, people approach this quest both on a strategic basis (long term plan) and tactical basis (short term opportunity) and generally (but not always) apply a prioritization princple such as Maslows hierarchy of needs. They consciously or subconciously do this all the time.

That framework helps me understand a lot.

1 People, all on their own, are going to seek out experiences that bring them pleasure.

2 What brings a person pleasure can change over time.

3 They will continue to do this regardless of how happy they currently are because they are driven to mazimize their cumulative amount of accrued pleasure.

4 They start with a list that is infinate, and whittle it down to what is available, consistent with their current value system, and consistent with prior results.

5 Their opportunties and value systems change based on prior results.

6 They will experiment.

7 They will prioritize, apply strategy and avail themselves of tactics.

8 They will continually repeat the process.

Now, none of this says people will choose to have an A. This is still a choice among a myriad of possible choices. However, to me, this is the framework for how it happens. IMHO, when you accept this framework, you realize that the A was not personal or an attack on the BS. I think its helpful to realize this in order to begin recovery. Accept your S was not happy. Accept that, like you, your spouse will search for this happiness. Focus on how they can find that happiness with you.

How this relates to MB principles

Point 1 - This is basically the concept of the giver and taker and the stages of marriage (Intimacy, conflict and withdrawal). The taker always comes to the fore front, because people will only deny this drive for so long. In fact, one could make the arguement that the giver is really the taker applying a different strategy.

Points 2 and 3 - Is very much like the love bank concept, EN's, etc.

Points 4 through 8 - All apply to ending an A and affair proofing a M. Plan A is very much about giving your S new and improving prior results with the S, exposure and confrontation is very much about eliminating opportunities for the A and diminishing the prior results from the A.

So will not having your EN's met cause an A. Not neccessarily. But they will cause people to be unhappy. This will lead to an expanded list of potential experiences and a change in value systems. Then if the opportunity presents its self.

Just my thoughts, always open to hear others opinions.

"IMHO, when you accept this framework, you realize that the A was not personal or an attack on the BS."

I agree.

It belongs to the offending party on their solo quest.



Max