OK let's try this:

You want to create/recreate the "warm & fuzzy" feelings between two willing partners in a relationship...EN theory wins! I don't know of anyone who would argue it's effectiveness.

Explain why an affair happened, or to ensure that inifdelity will not happen again...EN theory fails!

Like every other "tool", it has a place and use. Unfortunately IMO, this tool is too frequently misused.

Saw this on another site...thought it was interesting:
----

PBS is running a three part series on Sunday evenings about some families who re-live the frontier days, moving out to Montana somewhere in the wilderness and settling.

They aired a similar series a couple of years ago using a colonial time period back east.

Been interesting to watch.

Part II was on this past Sunday and part of the focus was on how the families were adjusting, particularly the marriages...approaching the subject of sexual relationships in such settings, etc.

Gotta admit, I was more engrossed watching the Masters Golf tournament, but would flip back and forth some.

I did hear one comment while checking in with the 'frontiers-men-wannabes' and heard one of the husbands make a statement that has stuck with me.

Basically, he said that the 21st century version of himself was far more preoccupied with his relationship with his wife. MUCH more so than the '18th century' version.

I found that interesting and wondered if back in earlier times, people...couples were so much more consumed with mere survival...trying to stay alive...fed...warm...etc.

But since those 'luxuries' are things we easily take for granted today, it's no wonder we have more time on our hands to sit around and dwell on our 'personal needs' and all the marital issues that arise and often lead to divorce or affairs, etc.

Not true in my case..

FOR SURE....Explained why the affair happened and insures that it will not happen again ...

I meet my H's primary emotional needs and he meets mine...

Certainly not previously the case for many, many years in our marriage...

PLAN A then PLAN B then RECOVERY...A NEW ME, A NEW HIM, A NEW MARRIAGE...ALL THREE...

Have you read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS?

That explains all of this best....

Mimi,

"One way of looking at this, IMO, is what will answering the WHY question do for the recovering the marriage?"

For recovering the marriage...very little. For keeping it recovered (as in no further infidelity)...everything! Why else go through the recovery process without answering the "why" question.

Don't know of many of us, on either side of this, that want the "pleasure" of this experience again.

I meant knowing ALL of the whys...prior to Recovery...

We continue to look at the WHYs now...

First, we had to do the surgery to get rid of all the cancer...

We did not stop to try to figure out HOW and WHY we got cancer....

B4Long thinks like me. I really believe that we have it too good now days. I have many, many friends from a very poor part of Mexico. They all have been married for a long time, and their wives say they are happily married. Being happy down there means you could afford to buy some rice and beans to put on the table today.

I always advise people to check out the EN section, and to make changes in themselves first. I think it is important to consider.

On the other hand, I think it is dangerous for ANYONE, BS or WS to think that someone is going to come along and meet all their needs and make them happy.

Again, I say your spouse is not expected to meet ALL of your needs. Dr. Harley says this..

mimi,

A question I have been asking myself for a while now:

What do you think will happen under the EN theory of infidelity if you get sick, lose your job, or say a family member gets sick and requires a majority of your attentions, for an extended period of time?

According to ENs, your H is preordained to have another A.

Myself, I cannot live with that prognosis. I need more than met ENs to feel safe now.

Much more. After all, I was meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs all along yet the VLTA happened anyway.

At the same time, none of my ENs were being met and I was being LB'd all the time, yet I did not have an A, even with many opportunities.

How about requiring something from our spouses in return for met ENs like: morals, ethics, boundaries and keeping promises even when difficult? These traits should have been part of their personality all along, but obviously were not. At least not sufficiently to prevent the A

IMO there needs to be formal recognition that the adulterer chose based on their internal mores and that they have to change these mores, ENs met or not. Otherwise, what have they learned that they can use to protect your M in the future? You will not be at his side ready to run in with a loaded EN the next time he is tempted on a business trip, right?

You know, I've been thinking lately, it’s better never to marry.

With prayers,

A~
This thread just caught my eye and I have not read everything but you raise a good question.

My gut feel is EN's are big piece of the puzzle. Let's not loose sight of the big picture. The first thing is what?
I think 1) Open and Honest... In my mind this means open line of communcation, which is the real reason affairs happen.
There is no longer a safe and open line of communication between spouses. We must work to make sure each spouse feels safe to share everything in there thoughts and mind. This builds trust in each other and understanding which is key for the rough spots.
When a spouse gets ill and the EN's can not be met, there must be understanding and communication to deal with it.

This is just my belief's.

Isn't POJA the opportunity to put boundaries in place? WHy are we only concentrating on EN's (or lack thereof)as the reason. I don't believe that EN's was the only part of affair-proofing that Dr. Harley is speaking to.

The reason why the EN theory fits so much in my situation, Aphelion is that my H was HIGHLY MORAL and ETHICAL, THE EPITOME OF A GOODY-TWO-SHOES all throughout his life..except for the time of his A...

My H was very loving and attentive towards me for many, many years..just like he is now....he was ALMOST PERFECT..treated me like a Princess...I was SPOILED...in many ways....

As to the Whys..he fits the perfect description of a man who had a MLC and tried to leave the good stuff behind to take a walk on the wild side...

Now he is like your stereotype of a reformed smoker...He talks very negatively about affairs and people who have affairs, is extremely ashamed about what he did..is tearful at the even thought or mention of it...

I could almost go back to being the old me and make the assumption that he could never have an affair..no, not my H...

But I have also changed and will give highest priority in my life to my marriage. The important thing is for him to know and believe in MY COMMITMENT to this..regardless of whether I have an illness..a sick child or a sick parent..He is trying to convince me to stop working so that does not apply...meeting my own EN here to be productive and make a contribution to society (are you listening, Believer?)

I NO LONGER WILL TAKE HIM FOR GRANTED..that was one of my biggest mistakes...I assumed that he would always be GOOD..always be FAITHFUL..regardless of what I did..YUCK...How selfish of me...

I don't accept the blame for him having an affair..I am at fault for NOT TENDING TO OUR MARRIAGE...There's a real big difference in that...

Mimi,

“…my H was HIGHLY MORAL and ETHICAL, THE EPITOME OF A GOODY-TWO-SHOES all throughout his life...except for the time of his A...”

"I NO LONGER WILL TAKE HIM FOR GRANTED..that was one of my biggest mistakes...I assumed that he would always be GOOD..always be FAITHFUL..regardless of what I did. YUCK...How selfish of me..."

I fully accept everything you write as your valid experience and successful approach to your situation - except the implied synergism between these two statements.

Sometimes I am reminded of the old woman and the snake story. You know, she gets bitten and the snake says, “What did you expect? You knew I was poisonous when you took me in.” If you did not trust your spouse did you knowingly marry a snake? Probably not.

It seems obvious to me his mores were not in fact as stellar, as deeply rooted, as you once believed. Otherwise, he would have passed the test…

And, I see no selfishness on your part, at all. If we cannot trust, there is no intimate relationship to start with. You should not fault yourself for assuming and relying on his ethics. He did promise you fidelity before God, family and community. How could you not believe him?

With prayers,

You are saying a lot here..

Our situation is certainly not as simplistic as I presented it in my post.

You are right. I put my H up on a high pedestal where he did not want to be. (Low Orbit speaks to this well.) He struggled to stay on this pedal to please me, assuming that I would not accept him for who he really is. He swung all the way to the opposite extreme during his A..walk on the wild side..I suppose that the OW accepted anything and everything about him..Well, she gave the impression..YUCK..that's not a real give and take relationship as we well know...

In our new relationship..I accept and acknowledge that the REAL him is somewhere there in the middle...he does not want to be on a pedestal but does not want to be do the fake acceptance of everything about him...POJA is what we do...

In the past,he felt that he had to put on some facade for me that he could not keep up..did not want to keep up...

I still see my real H as basically a good and decent person..Well, he strives to be that person..I think he is a wonderful person and I respect and value so much about him. I am so thankful that he is back and not the WH and I have found him again...



I do not fault myself for assuming and relying on his ethics. He made a vow to me that he definitely broke...

However, I feel that we all can sin and fall short because we are human and imperfect.. He has asked and begged for my forgiveness and I have forgiven him wholeheartedly.

These are some of the WHYS that Ron is talking about that have become more apparent during Recovery....

Wow, this is hard work...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So true Mimi. And I'm glad to see you saying that.

I wish you and your spouse well in your recovery. EN's, POJA, no LBs, 15 hours, etc. are all wonderful means of building/re-building a mutually satisfying relationship.

I'm heartened to see that you and your spouse are continuing to search for the "why" also. It's my honest belief that until that question is answered (and addressed) to both parties satisfaction, the relationship will remain vulnerable. BUT once accomplished...aaaah, makes me smile to think about it!

This recovery "stuff" is one instance where it's not the end that justifies the means, but just the opposite...the means justifies the end!

And just for the record...

I have just as many "problems" embracing the "$h!t Happens", "Everything Happens for a Reason", and "The Devil Made Me Do It" models for explaining the cause(s) of infidelity as I do with the "EN model"!!

I've responded to everyone's email <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Plank, got any more room under the rock of yours? Sounds more inviting then some of the destinations I've been invited to go.

Very interesting topic, Daisy !

After much reading and thinking about the EN's and what part
they may have played in WH's A, I've been torn.
WH has never done the EN survey, but if I try to do it as
I think he would, I feel like I met all his EN's very well
throughout our marriage. I don't feel that he met my EN's
very well at all though, but I've never had an affair or
looked to someone else to meet them-

So, this makes me wonder how much of his getting involved in an A had to do with EN's, and how much of it were other things like MLC, SA, boredom, disrespect, lack of morals, lack of character, lack of committment, depression, etc...
and makes it harder to figure out what I could have done
any differently.

Some of these thoughts relate to some things that WH has
talked about recently in his IC, which I had never heard
him say before. He's mentioned several times that he felt
our M was "safe and stable", but that he didn't always think
it was "good" to be "safe and stable". To me, he is equating
"safe and stable" with BORING ?!
When I asked for more detail, he said he would like to have
more "excitement", be more "spontaneous", not always have
a "plan", take some "risks", do different things and be out
of the same old routine. Said he felt like he'd like someone
else to have ideas and make plans, not just him.
I found these comments interesting, as I feel like I was the
one who always wanted to do things, suggested activities,
made the plans and asked him to participate, only to often
have my ideas "shot down", and him not have any better idea.

Another thing he mentioned was that he never felt like he
was being "challenged". When getting into more detail, he
talked about this in relation to his job/career, and how
he felt a lot of drive to succeed, make more money, work
his "way up", eventually have his own business, etc. and
wanted to be with someone who had the same drive/ambition
so it would "challenge" him.
Said he felt like I was content to just stick in a stable job, not necessarily make more or move up the chain. I would
say this is true to some degree, as I have enjoyed my same
job and career field for a long time now, and even though
it's not a high paying field, have become very good at it,
worked my way "up" and taken advantage of the benefits and
all I could (I am in the travel industry).
He specifically brought up that he felt I had a good chance
to change career fields when I lost my long-term job (about
1.5 yrs ago due to loss of govt contract) and that instead
of venturing out on something new, took another job in the
same field, at lower pay, and he considered this as my
"copping" out, which made him lose a little respect for me.
(Of course, he doesn't mention that he never said anything
about this to me at the time, the fact that only having one
income while I went to school would have been difficult,
that he's had no ideas of what else I could do, etc.).

So, now I'm not only boring, but don't challenge WH, and he
feels I'm just "plodding" along in a poor job too !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I would assume some of this is his trying to find things to
"justify" the A, but I also think there's probably some
truth behind his comments too. Are these issues of my not
meeting some EN's ? Is this MLC "talk" of WH wanting the
perfect, ambitious, money-making, gorgeous "trophy" wife
who "challenges" him ?
Later, I asked WH how I could "challenge" him, and he said
"if you have to ask, you obviously can't do it", which
certainly was no help and not very nice either.
Guess OW must make him feel challenged, although I think of
everything with her is a "game". I don't know anything
about her income, but believe she is a salesperson for a
medical or pharmaceutical company, which to me equates to
"sales" (same as I do), and isn't a big "power" career !
Slammed

I don't mean to butt in but I just read this entire topic and didn't see anyone mention that the Harley's don't just believe unmet EN's cause affairs. Unmet EN's can make the M more vulnerable to an affair but the WS gets into an affair b/c they did not protect their weaknesses. The sole responsibility of the affair still lies with the WS.

In a case of the EN's not being met due to an illness... this would not CAUSE the affair. It would definately create vulnerability but the spouses are still responsible for protecting their weaknesses! I'm not sure where this would be stated in the website or the books but Steve Harley clearly states this during his sessions. I know he has stated it to me and I read a post on here from a FWW that he told her that too.

This is why some of us have affairs and some of us don't. My WH did not meet many of my needs for most/all of our marriage and he was verbally abusive to me, yet he is the one that had the affair. I used to question this, wait how is it that I wasn't having my needs met but I didn't get into an A so why did he. Well, guess what we were both vulnerable but I protected myself from it and he didn't. The responsibility still lies with him. If we had been doing a better job at meeting each other's EN's our M would not have been as vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that an A still wouldn't have happened. It still comes down to protecting your weaknesses.

Don't know if I did a good job explaining this so I copy and pasted below the post I read on the recovery board about protecting your weaknesses.

Post by KariJean


("Greetings. For those of you who know nothing about me, I am the FWW, in recovery for 7 weeks now. Going through MC with SH. Just thought I'd share what I've learned from SH regarding protecting one's weaknesses, because I think this understanding is missing in many threads here.

I had an A because I didn't protect my weaknesses. If you are a WS or FWS, you had your A for the exact same reason. There is NO OTHER reason or cause for an A. Allow me to give you the example SH gave me, because I didn't truely understand this concept until he gave me this explanation.

First Scenerio:
Let's say you are married, and for several years you have not felt like your spouse has been meeting any of your EN's (although you didn't know what to call your EN's at the time). You felt lonely, unloved, and weren't sure you felt any love toward your spouse any longer. You were depressed about all of the above. You start talking to a co-worker one day, and find the attention and compliments they give you to be very flattering. You find yourself looking forward to seeing this person at work. After a few weeks, this person invites you to lunch, or out for a couple of drinks. You continue to share more and more with this person. Before you realize it, this person has taken the place of your spouse, and are meeting so many of your EN's that you fall in love with this OP.

Second Scenerio:
You are married. In your opinion, happily married. You and your spouse share your deepest thoughts and emotions. You work hard at meeting each other's EN's. There is nothing you would change in your M. You start talking to a co-worker one day, and find the attention and compliments they give you to be very flattering. You find yourself looking forward to seeing this person at work. After a few weeks, this person invites you to lunch, or out for a couple of drinks. You continue to share more and more with this person. Before you realize it, this person has taken the place of your spouse, and are meeting so many of your EN's that you fall in love with this OP.

Okay, here's where the lesson comes. In both scenerios, a spouse ends up falling in love with another person. Did the spouse in scenerio #2 fall in love because their EN's were not being met? NO. They fell in love because they DID NOT PROTECT THEIR WEAKNESSES. Now they are in love with 2 different people.

Did the poor condition of the M in scenerio #1 contribute to the spouse being more suseptible to having an A? Quite possible. But again, they didn't fall in love because their EN's weren't being met. They fell in love because they DID NOT PROTECT THEIR WEAKNESSES.

What are some examples of weaknesses? I have several, so allow me to share this with you. I have an incredible inability to express my deepest feelings and emotions with anyone, including my H. When I began feeling empty in our M, rather than discuss this with him, I chose to allow someone else to make deposits into my love bank. Before I knew what had happened, I fell in love with this OP. I chose not to tell my H how I was feeling. Heck, I don't think I was even honest with myself! But enough about my situation, I want people reading this to grasp this concept in the worst way. IMO, this is a huge stepping stone toward recovery in anyone's M that's had an A involved. It's important for BOTH spouses to understand this concept. It makes the WS accountable for their choices. It allows the BS freedom from feeling like their spouse had an A because they weren't meeting his/her EN's. It reduces the chance for the BS to blame the whole thing on themselves.

I hope this post has made sense to at least some of the great people here on this forum. I'd be happy to clarify anything if I can.

Make it a great day,

KJ")

This is exactly what I mean. Slammed1 asks, "what I could have done any differently?" How could Slammed1 have prevented her husband from cheating? All too often (unfortunately), the knee-jerk response is...shoulda kept him happy...happy, contented partners don't cheat...obviously there was something wrong with the marriage...what emotional needs weren't YOU meeting. The BS hears this ad nauseum.

The BS is bombarded with things they should or could have done to prevent their spouse from cheating. WHAT UTTER NONSENSE!! Let's ask the victim to also be the guilty party in this sick scenario! NOTHING, short of locking up our spouse, can a BS do to prevent cheating.

Sammed1, there is NOTHING you could have done to prevent your husband from cheating. Either he has character and morals and the necessary faculties to distinguish right from wrong, or he doesn't. That's NOT to say that these can never be developed, only that at that point in time, when he "dropped trou" and went for it, he did not. Not to be graphic here, but you didn't pull his pants down, you didn't roll him on top of her. You didn't make him cheat...not that day...not the day before....not the week before...not the month before!

Slammed1, your husband wants to be "challenged"? Allow me to suggest this: Ask him to repair/replace his moral compass, ask him to take a real hard look at his character, ask him to define what is right and what is wrong, ask him if his actions reflect how HE would like to be treated. By all means help him in this "challenge", but do not assume his burden.

We all need to be "challenged" to be better than we are. We all need to work to improve ourselves. We do not need to assume another sins. Only Christ could (and did) do that for us...

Don't agree. The very first moment that my H cheated he knew what he was doing was wrong. He knows now that what he did was wrong. Yes, there are those with faulty character who cheat but this CANNOT BE SAID FOR ALL CHEATERS...

None of us are free from the ability to SIN...

Slammed:

Keep in mind that your this is your WH talking now..

Most of what he says now is aimed at justifying his A..

The ENs issue is pertinent prior to the beginning of the A...

I was clueless like you, thinking that I was meeting my H's ENs..well, I didn't know the terminology then...

But, I was way off base...

Have you talked with Steve Harley?

Steve is the one who REALLY HELPED ME TO UNDERSTAND and STEVE was SOOOO CORRECT....

In my first session with Steve, I was self-righteous and determined to present myself as the BEST WIFE...

He set me straight....

Not saying that this is necessarily true in your situation...

I'm warning you again to not to take too much stock in what your H is saying now to you and to your therapists...

THE FOG IS REAL..and your H is a FOGGY WS....He seems to know how to use psychological jargon to his benefit to PLAY YOU and his COUNSELOR...