I'm not happy that she's sad and in pain. I am thrilled that we've hit this milstone. Much further to go but these are the words and the affirmation I've been waiting for 8 weeks to hear!

Please someonone tell me if I can append "F" to WW.

Also what is the best way to support her through this??

Call me cynical, but time to be alone usually means time to spend with the affair partner. Like Melody says, if she wants time alone, she can go into the bathroom and lock the door.

Sounds like she sees the consequences of her actions! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Good luck as your recovery continues!

edited to add:
Ooops! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I guess I don't know your sitch too well. I'll defer to those that do.

Ditto what believer said. Time alone and "space" to find herself is usually code for "I sure am glad of the opportunity to keep on working on the adultery without your interference." I hope I'm wrong, but only a couple of days ago you were concerned she was still getting and replying to emails from OM. Beyond words, what has changed of any significance? Words are cheap. I'd look for some action before I got optimistic.

She's still working with him, right? She's on a leave of absence but she'll go back to her old office where the EA started, developed into a PA, and flourished for a long time, unless I've misinterpreted things in your other thread. That means the adultery is still on, and just one tiny step away from flaring back up into full-blown sexual activity.

It's nice she's saying she's "sorry she hurt you," but no *F*WS wants to take off and go away and "think".

As the others said, "I need space to think" virtually always means "I need space to continue my affair without you interfering."

A true *F*WS can't get their butt home fast enough in order to start taking care of things THERE.

Let us know when she wants to be with YOU instead of ditching you and ignoring you again to go "think".
Mulan

Believer - thanks for the skepticisim. I need reality checks. FYI - she's out of state & with her mother. And need time alone to calm the storm is no joke. She's been a mess for 8 mos.

ChaCha - thank you for the well wishes. This is a HUGE deal for my W to own up to this. All I got from the first A was a reluctant apology AFTER I insisted on it in a shouting match.

Cautiously optimistic.

am I the only person that caught this?


THAT does not sound like someone trying to get away from you. I completely understand the desire to NOT want to deal with people when this is going on, but for recovery to begin you have to participate with your spouse. I don't see in her remarks where sha said she also wanted to be away from you. I see the opposite in fact. She wants to be away from everyone except you.

That is what I read. Does it earn her an F? no. one email does not earn you an F. A history of actions earns you an F. And as we have seen, an F can be lost by a single action. Just like trust. Easy to lose, hard to build.

Shes not a FWW yet. Perhaps she's headed that way... not sure.

This whole 'I need to think things out' and 'I need to calm the storm' stuff lets you know she's still not quite there. It's all related to her affair.

Two affairs in only five years of marriage is a problem. Why do you think she keeps doing this?

My ws went away for a week too.. I also know for a fact that he did not go to continue the affair. He was at mutual friends the entire time in another state. He too has been depressed for months even before the A began. So I do beleive you are seeing good things from her. However, don't expect miracles when she comes back. I think they go away to try to convince themselves of why they did it etc... However, when she gets back do not let her justify her actions. FACE THE AFFAIR!! She will want to focus on all that led to it, and the I am sorry buts.... Believe me, my dh just got back Sunday and this has been our battle. He wants to work on things but not face the reality of being sorry for the A. It is like it would be a slap in the face to the OW. It is a strange ride. Be prepared!!

It could also mean that she's not comfortable yet facing the damage that she caused.

OK. So I'm convinced the "F" has not yet been earned. Still a wayward, but a step in the right direction.

Tell me about withdrawal. Is this not what withdrawal looks like?

Longhorn - beyond words, nothing has changed. I was skeptical that she was in contact with OM based on my gut. Could not decide if she was withdrawn or in contacct. I had not evidence either way. You're right, words are not evidence. Good point. Actions are evidence.

So if she's trying to throw me off the trail, it's working. Admitting to any kind of wrong, especially one this big is WAY out character. Which is why I guess I'm putting so much stock into these words.

With respect to her job - she was holding on to it for health insurance reasons. Friday we decided she should quit and I'd get COBRA coverage. She emailed her VP who has asked to speak with her on the phone. They've been unable to connect.

Sundog - if she's thinking stuff out related to the affair then that's a good thing, right?? A week and a half ago when I brought up the A to ask about whether she was was OM when I was out of town I got the same, fogged out WW talk that I got while I KNEW she was in in affair. No remorse. No talk of betrayal. Only justification and attacking. Even though they are only words, is the change in vocabulary meaningless?

As to two affairs in 5 years, I've got a lot to say about why I think she keeps doing this that would easily eat up an hour. My take is this = difficulty coping with life stress in a healthy and mature way. Both As grew out difficult times.

Thanks everyone for level setting me. That's what I wanted to hear. Don't want to get too carried away with a single email. Even though they words are marvelous to hear.

Not if it's a permanent change accompanied by a change of behaviour. However, vaccilation is a common behaviour in WS's, so I'm hesistant to see how she behaves over time.

Also I should say that I encouraged my W to go away to her mother's. I agressively moved up the timeline. The A was still active and I wanted her remove himself from the work environment and get around her mother and family who draw her 'real' self out. I went out with her the first week and it wasn't 2 days before I started seeing glimpses of the W and mother I thought I married.

It is a strange ride.

Thanks wounded. I know that we have not yet begun. And there are rocky times ahead. Definitely good advice to face the A when she gets back. We scheduled some phone time tomorrow evening - my idea - for her to talk and me to listen. Without judgement. I'm taking this in small steps. Definintely not ready to declare victory with an email. Like I said, it's significant that she is empathizing and taking responsibility. It's just not something she does.

MiM I definintely think she's not yet comfortable facing the damage. I think it might be hard for her.

We're at the VERY beginning of this I know. Thanks for everyone's posts.

So cautious optimism, right? I mean there has to be optimisim doesn't there? Hope??

That worries me, MDC. When a man or woman chooses, repeat, chooses to address a difficulty (or perceived difficulty) by committing adultery, it is often an indication of a character flaw. Difficult times call for more integrity, not less. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

I think you feel you two did not address the first adultery properly and you're attempting to address this latest adultery as (more or less) an extension of the first "difficulties." If you do, though, it makes following SAA precepts crucial, right down to the letter, instead of applying bits and pieces of Dr. Harley's programs.

I wish you the best of luck in this. There are some hopeful signs. If she will actually quit that job even when the VP gets through to her, I’ll be more optimistic. She’s nowhere near a FWW though. Sorry.

That's OK. I'm no where near done working on this!


It worries me too Longhorn. Believe me. There is a LOT to get through here. 2 As, my own crap and hers as well. We both need ICs and MCs. Geez. Add 2 kids, work on top of that and I ask myself HOW can it happen? What's going to give me or her the energy to get through it?? What if we don't make it??

I ask myself those questions every day. I answer myself by reminding to have faith in me, her and us. Faith that we CAN get through to the other side. It's a mess. No doubt.



Can you elaborate? What is not being followed? I totally messed up the exposure part. I didn't understand enough about Plan A or why to expose to do it. I was also not at strong enough place within myself. Weak. Terrified that she would leave. That's just where I was at the time. I've been moving away from the center of WW and I - our M -to my own center. If I was anywhere near my own center at the time, I would have exposed. I wasn't.

Thanks for your support, Longhorn. And your vigilance on my behalf. VERY much appreciated.

I was thinking more of the exposure issue than anything else, MDC...along with a little suggestion SAA needs to be studied, not just read. I agree the exposure is a moot issue now IF she leaves that job and you can nail down the inconsistency about the emails.

MDC

It is at the very minimum a step in the right direction.

But sometimes it's one step forward and two steps back.

Admitting there is a problem is the first step though.

I agree that words sometimes are meaningless. She needs to now show you she meant what she said. Make sure she knows your EN's and see how committed she is to filling those. That will tell you a lot. You need to fill hers to by the way. If she starts taking your EN's to heart you will start to know where you stand.

Regarding the emails why can't you find them? Use keystroke software on your home computer. It logs everything. My FWW changed her password and I installed it. I got her password the next day. It will tell you every web address she visited and the passwords. She probably does not send them from her work email address she probably sends them from a yahoo type account. Install it one day and then leave for a few hours when she is home. Give her the opportunity to go on line without fear of you coming home.

But the good news for you is it seems like on the surface she is turning in the right direction.

Good Luck

I can't believe this - I wrong a page-long response to LH and YoH as well as an update. Hit the wrong key and it all got wipped out. Grrr. I need a keylogger on MY computer for such goofs.

Anyway thanks LH and YoH for caring enough to post. I'll recharge and re-writte here in a bit.

MDC, (assuming you were typing in the Quick Reply text box) when that happens, right click back in the text box and select "undo." It should bring most/all your text right back to you.

Ok, I'm in no position to give any advice but one of the most valuable things to me about this board is just learning from other peoples experiences since they do seem so similar. So I'll share:

Back in Dec my wife and I had this (what I thought was at the time) incredible talk on the flight back from our vacation. She opened up to me about all kinds of things I'd never known about her. Our vacation was in her hometown and in that conversation she told me about her first boyfriend, we talked about "us", the things we've been through, hours of talking about all kinds of intimate things. One thing she told me was something like "I just need you to understand that I need some "me" time once in a while". That vacation she had spent a lot of "me" time by the way. Anyway this was 6 months or so into what I thought was recovery; we were going on lots of dates, spending lots of time, etc. For a while I've remembered this talk as one of our most connected moments in recent memory. When we got back home I tried to give her some "me" time every weekend, trying to be a good husband.

That trip was when she met a guy at a bar (on the *one* *single* night out with her girlfriends no less) and spent the next 6 months secretly conversing with him through email. SO, I think when a WW says things like they need "space" its not a good sign. She even spent a lot of that conversation talking about a retreat she wanted to attend in her home town alone for some more "me" time. Thank goodness she didn't go on that retreat.

Even if they're doing other things that seem right, if they're talking about "space", "me time", "privacy", etc, that is WS code for at *least* "I'm not sure about you yet".

Boy do I feel stupid, duped again! At least I'm hearing a lot less of the "me" stuff lately and we're in counselling now.

Keep up your Plan A! You can do it :-)

MDC,

I would caution you strongly against putting stock into the words of a WW...WSes become masters at manipulating situations to get what they want...Seriously, even some actions can't be trusted...Many times they do or say things to try and keep you at bay...I'm sorry, I know that really stings, but it is honest...I know it's impossible to try and decipher all the yuck...But honestly, when she's ready for the "F", you'll know...Living with you again, words and deeds combined, along with consistency and total transparency will be her ticket into the FWS club...

Sorry to say that her email is close to verbatim from my own WW script...

Mrs. W

LH
I typed this in a word doc and saved frequently before posting. That will be my new method for longer posts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I read SAA once and have spent an average of 10-15 hrs per week on this board reading and posting. Mostly reading about situations similar to mine. I understand the vets don’t like seeing a BS not follow the principals to the letter. I fear that I’ve been cut off by yourself and other posters because I did not expose. As if I were an outcast on the MB board. Could be wrong. That’s my perception. Is there truth to it?

YoH
You are right, actions speak louder than words. And not just one or two actions but consistent behavior. I wonder when I’ll start to see her doing ‘recovery’ things on her own. She’s been reading a self-help style book. I’ve never seen her read one of these books. Anyway I’m backing off leading the recovery just a little bit to create enough space for her to do something proactive. Is that the right thing to do? I just don’t know how to behave right now. Do I still Plan A?? Confused.

I’m a big fan of keyloggers. Installed one on her corporate PC but the anti-virus program found it. Boy was she mad! Anyway I have not installed another one on her laptop. I’m able to recover email when she’s around me but she’s been at her mothers for the past week and a half and I’ve been unable to see her email. I was never able to get the IMs (without a keylogger) and there was a lot of communication that way.

The one snoop I have that works remotely is cell phone records. No calls to OM since I changed her number. Or text messages. If she’s talking to him she’s talking on her mother’s phone & running up big long-distance. And/or talking via email/instant message.

It does seem to me like she’s turning in the right direction but I’ve been wrong before. Very wrong. I can see all the MBers working to ground me in the reality that things may get ugly again. And I appreciate that. I do want to be braced for something bad so it doesn’t bring me to my knees like it did in the past when I believed things were getting better.

NG
Thanks for the heads up. Your story makes me realize that it’s important – and healthy – to remain “on guard”. I have not idea what’s going on in her head so I’m just going to have to like with that. Separate and equal like LA says.

Good point too that less “me” talk is a sign of movement away from wayward. Are you hearing more “us” and “you”?

MW
Good point re: trusted actions. It doesn’t take much for me to remember how, in the heat of the A, some of WW’s actions could not have been cashed. Blank checks.

So what should I do now? Continue Plan A I suppose right? I should continue to reach out to her and not assume we’re in recovery until I KNOW we’re in recovery. And this is something you say I’ll know? Like being in love? If you have to ask you aren’t?

Thanks everyone. I remain hopeful and optimistic. I am much less anxious this week for some reason. I think because I’m starting to get into my new job.

PS I have not heard any update on whether she had a conversation with her VP about qutting. I did not talk to WW all day yesterday and only for a few minutes today since she was going somewhere with the kids. I'll call her tonight & get the latest.

On another note I just did some calcuations and when WW does quit it's going to put a pretty considerable financial strain on us until I ramp into my new position - sales. I actually half thought about asking her to keep the job until she found another one. Someone tell me that this is not a good idea.

I know it's not a good idea. We need to take advantage of her physical separation from the office because who knows what will happen when she goes back to the office and they see each other again. They cannot see each other again!

Ugh. This stinks. Finacial strain has been a halmark of our M and more of it while we're trying to get through this will not be good.

Yep MDC, you'll know...here's how, in recovery(and always in your marriage), you'll be spending at least 15 hours per week TOGETHER...doing that will be revealing...remember, when you are doing that and meeting her needs that's when romantic love will reattach...your conversations will also reflect it...Now, I don't know how others are in their recovery, but Mr. W and I talk openly about the affair...not to beat a dead horse, mind you, but having an affair is all about the issues of the WS, to properly recover the WS MUST find out what about them allowed them to make such a choice...that's a lot of internal work, I constantly talk with Mr. W about that stuff-hey, that's intimacy, warts and all...he has always given me a safe place to share with him...it has worked miracles for our closeness...Recovery is something that you do together...you MUST work in tandem...give her the freedom to share with you by not punishing her when she does-NO DJ's...it is a common goal to be sought after as a union...

MDC, in recovery, there should be true REMORSE from your WW...Don't confuse that with guilt...Guilt is a selfish emotion...I'm quite verbal, and there are times that I don't even have the words to tell Mr. W how sorry that I am...what deep remorse and regret that I feel...I try to verbalize it...mostly now I just tell him how grateful I am to have him...and he is grateful for me too...when she's "ALL IN" she'll tell you, show you and want to shout it to the world...When she is totally on board having contact with OM would seemed ludacrous to her...and while we are on the topic of NO CONTACT, MDC, don't you DARE be tempted to encourage her to go back to that job...sorry, but, ARE YOU INSANE??? That's like asking a crack addict to watch over the stash at the Crack House...alone!!! Um, how bout...NO...NO...NO...Figure out another way...and YES, there is ALWAYS another way!!! Sorry to "shout" at ya MDC, but I don't want to see you walk right into a false recovery...not only that, to encourage her going back to that job to work with OM is actually you volunteering to be a VICTIM, because on some level the affair would resume-count on that...So, that's a BIG N-O! You copy that MDC? We Clear? K...Sorry, at ease...as you were...and all that jazz...LOL...You just scared me...Step away from the "crazy pills" and nobody gets hurt, K? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Great post MW. Thanks.

Do you think my WW is hiding out? Based on your experience what is she healing from?? Or is that fog.

Hmmm...Well MDC, I think that the hiding out theory is certainly possible, and here's why...Affairs are about escaping real life...I certainly see hiding out at her mom's as a healthier form of escapism than an affair, but it's still escapism and THAT is NOT healthy, and of course is NOT good for your marriage...The healing thing is a bunch of hooey to avoid dealing with real life, IMO...it's a red herring...

But I also said much of the same stuff that your WW is saying about "needing space", "time to think" and "work through my issues", etc. when I was trying to keep my affair alive and Mr. W at bay to continue it...so it's a toss up really...it could actually be both...gosh, that sounds so negative, I'm sorry MDC...But take heart, I was one of the WORST WW's around and I could not be any happier in my marriage now, so there is definitely hope...

About contact with OM...when she gets back(when is that again?), if I were you I would put a voice activated digital recorder in her car...although you know that there has been NC via her cellphone, many times there is the existence of the dreaded "affair phone"...We are still trying to straighten out that nightmare because the company actually owes us money...ARGH!!! Anyway, I know that much of the time a BS hates to "snoop" and that the idea of the digital recorder in her car may be unappealing to you, but I am a firm believer that you MUST inspect what you expect...Also, and Mr. W and I believe this has been a great thing for recovery of the BS...When you hear some of the blatant lies told about you and other things, it allows you to realize just how false that the whole load of garbage is...as many here say, if it wasn't so sad it would sometimes be funny...a WS is a really bizarre creature!


Mrs. W

MDC, if you think I deserted you, please remember I’m here on MB for no other reason than to help people get through the obscenity of infidelity. I, and those others you mentioned, don’t get anything out of the hours we take out of our lives to be here. In fact, we’re sacrificing a part of our lives in order to come here regularly. Okay, perhaps we sometimes get some personal satisfaction if we’re able to give someone that little bit of support in a dark hour or make a suggestion for something the betrayed could do to improve their situation, but that’s all there is. At the same time (this isn’t directed at you or anyone else in particular), when a poster decides he or she knows better than Dr. Harley, many of us see only heartbreak and despair ahead for that poster.

Understand this also. Virtually all of us who try to help others out here have suffered from an adultery in their own marriage. Adultery is not something you forget. Many of us operate very closely to a depression of our own because of all the stories we read out here. It’s a defensive tactic--I understand that--but oftentimes we have to avoid train wrecks where we can or we are drawn in too deep. It’s too painful and it takes too much out of us. I suspect we do tend to concentrate on those posters who are actively working on Dr. Harley’s program.

I guess to sum it all up, I regret you feel I deserted you because of the path you decided upon. It was not intentional.

Thanks Mrs. W. Good points. I'm ready for WW to get to the point where she can function again. Where not everything is a crisis - actually she's never been good in crisis. Pre-A or otherwise. Just got a call from her - crisis. Everything's a crisis. Her panic seemed to be more accute during the A. And I see that same kind of panic in her now. That much hasn't changed.

When do I get a full-funcitoning, problem-solving adult that can stay relatively calm in crisis? I'm not looking forward to the financial strain that no job for WW will put on us because WW does not handle adversity well. We're also going to be moving across town. More adversity. It's like I've got to manage the situation as well as her. Kind of like YoH's WW but not quite as severe. Acutally the difference this time is I will NOT try to manage her emotions.

Going to be bumpy for the next couple months so I've got to breathe deep and not gasp for recovery, as LA says.

So what do I do now? Right now I'm acting Plan Aish and working on sharing myself and letting her know that it's safe to share herself with me. It's hard to do remotely of course. We'll get into MC when she gets back. I need to shop for a counselor first. One that can build a clear recovery plan for us.

I like that - "inspect what you expect". I will absolutely do that. WW returns a week from this Saturday.

Agree the lies ARE humorous. I'm at the point now where looking back at the ridiculous things I heard make me chuckle. Still a little burn in them but they are so way out. OP are not excluded from the comedy either. One of the gems from OM was a text message I interecepted after WW broke it of with him "You must REALLY love your kids a lot to be giving me up for them." (Paraphrasing) Classic. OP also blamed ME for ruining any chance at reconcilliation with his W because I called OMW and told her that OM was telling likes about WW being 'just friends'. Beautiful.

Classics from WW are "You did this to yourself!" and "You let him into my heart."

OK now I'm laughing.

Longhorn - I fully understand your point. I would feel the same way. I went back and re-read my posts, kind of relived what I was going through at the time. I was full of fear, confused and fog-bound.

Thanks for sticking with me as much as you did.

I forgot to add that since you're getting great advice from folks like MrsDubya, there's no point in me throwing my 2¢ in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you can settle into a strong Plan A now. Do those things that will make you a better, more attractive person to your spouse. She probably won't acknowledge them for a long while. She might not even consciously see them, but they'll have an effect. Hang in there, pardner. The roller coaster ride is just getting under way.

Thanks Longhorn.

Looks like we've got a LONG way to go. I found some music CDs that the OM in WW's first affair made for her. I actually found them a couple weeks ago. Things were so crazy that I didn't think much about them. I rediscovered them a few days ago.

Since they've been on my mind I brought them up to WW. Asked her if they were from the OM in the first A. Geez you wouldn't believe the fog I got back. She won't even call that A by what it was - an A. "You mean that guy I was emailing that you freaked out about?" I've got a BIG hill to climb.

So question about withdrawl. Let's assume that WW is NC with OM - from this A. Is it normal for her after a couple weeks of NC to still be foundbound, defensive, justifying. Unable to call things by their right names? Like calling an EA an EA?

I'm really discouraged. Ugh.

Also - there's a very clean definition of an affair I saw somewhere. Can anybody point me to it?

Yes, MDC, it is VERY NORMAL for her to still be fog bound that early into NC...Recovery is not an event, it is a process...I began posting here 10 days into NC and trust me when I tell you that I was a HUGE foghorn...it makes me shudder to go back and read my old stuff-especially when I posted how that I had gotten "clarity" from renewed contact with OM-geez, I was an idiot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...for me, reading the stories of others here really helped to cut through my fog...it was odd, I would read the stories of the BSes here and be outraged at what was happening to them, but it took a while for me to see that THAT was EXACTLY what I had been doing...hey, when we first come here, we all think that our stories are SOOOO Unique...what a great slap of reality to find out just how cookie cutter that affairs are...makes you feel like a pretty big idiot...

I'm not sure what definition that you are refering to, but I like how Dr. Phil puts it..."Infidelity is what your spouse thinks it is."... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

This article by Steve Harley may be the one you were thinking about?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html

I believe in stating what you believe an affair is...your definition matters.

That's not educating...that is you being O&H, isn't it? You believe marriage is for two parties only...correct?

Be strong in what you believe, MDC...respectful. What she believes is hers...and it changes, as your beliefs have changed...

Stay focused on you...so you can share yourself...instead of react.

LA

MDC, you aren't referring to the Dr. Phil definition of cheating, are you? Paraphrasing it, "If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse, it's cheating."

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, probably is a duck. Could be a duck billed platapus though.

I recently change apartments and there are some kids around here that have no parental supervision. They do some things I would never allow my kids to do. I gave them one simple rule. You act as though I am going to find out everything you do. If you know you would get in trouble if I was watching you don't do it.

I think the same goes for a marriage. If any of her actions were no big deal why hide them? If you were doing the same exact thing would it bother her? You know the answers.

Quick funny story. Exactly one year after my wifes A I had to take a business trip. I was getting so agitated by her lying and oh well attitude I alluded to the fact something happened on my trip. She freaked out. She was calling my work trying to get this girls name before I could even get home. Nothing happened I made it up. I was actually going to let it go on until she felt some of the pain I did. She was going to destroy me though. Get me fired. Told me to pack my crap and leave. I had to admit my lie. She asked why I would do that. I said from the way you acted this last year I thought it would be no big deal to you. I guess it was a big deal and I wasn't over reacting. I guess whats good for the goose wasn't good for the gander.

So the moral to this story is tell her to stop quacking cause she wouldn't like you going online and chatting up other women.

formerly years of hurt.

***Also - there's a very clean definition of an affair I saw somewhere. Can anybody point me to it?***

My sig line may have what you're looking for, thanks to LovingAnyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Thanks everyone for your responses!

Mrs. W - thanks for the clarification. Looks like I've traded one stage of weirdness for another. I do like the Dr. Phil definition.

How long does it take to pull through the fog? Other than this board - I'll invite her to post - what are some of the things that can be done to clear it? You can see that WW is still fogged about the first affair. 2 1/2 years later! What clears it for a WS in withdrawl? I've read all the withdrawl links including Suzet's. Just looking for more insight...

And Mulan - yes that's the one I was looking for. Not for myself but to share w/my WW.

We've got financial problems - AGAIN - and I'm going to shoulder this burden by myself much as I've done over the years. I don't want to offload to WW because she typcially gets frustrated and I feel anger coming off of her directed towards me. So I don't even want to try and open this up to her. It creates a lot of negative feelings and has been the source of bad 'blood' between us for years...

I feel alone in this. Not a new feeling. This lonliness regarding our finances has been what's driven me to resentment in the past - fact that I rarely get any positive or encouraging reaction from WW. Just doom and gloom. Wears me out.

BTW - WW is returning tomorrow night. She'll work at her job and actively look for another position. There's no way we can afford to have her not work for any period of time.

MDC

I feel your pain my friend. Sorry to hear about the finances but my FWW is just like yours.

She worked very hard to create some very difficult financial situations and then sat back and watch me work hard to fix them. Not only that but when I was working to fix them I was the bad guy for telling her not to spend any money. I was always punishing her for her mistake. Meanwhile I wasn't punishing her I was asking her not to do anything else to cause more problems for me. God forbid she drops $500 on herself then we can't afford for her to spend another $180 to get her hair done. LOL.

My advice because I am still trying to fix the finances is don't even get her involved. When I did it pissed me off to no end because she figured I was better then her at it so I should do it. I could do it alone better then involving her anyway. If I asked her to do something I had to explain it 50 times to her so it was just easier for me to do it anyway. Less stress for me.

Work through it and then look yourself in the mirror and say "I did it" without her. Could she do the same? If not it proves she is better off with you then without you. You may even want to bring that up to her about how great you think you did at fixing it.

This is us all over. I've been the bad guy for trying to keep us out of the poorhouse. I think WW appreciates what I do but doesn't seem to make a difference when I ask her to curb spending. She just gets mad at "us" because we struggle. She gets the "we'll NEVER not have money trouble" attitude. She's like a cinder block around my neck in this respect.

Yes, I've just not been discussing with her at all. But this new wrinkle is going to require that she slow down a little bit & I dread that conversation esp. with everything else going on.

Thanks HL. Helps to know someone else is living with the same challenge. Your even mind is an inspiration.

She comes back tomorrow - expect to see a lot more of me on this board...

MDC

Let me share with you so you know you are not alone. This is a story I cringe when I tell it.

About 6 years ago my wife wanted to move back east. I told her we needed 10k to move. She decided she wanted plastic surgery and spent about 6k on the surgery. When the conversation about the plastic surgery started she said "we are never moving back so why not get the surgery." I told her I never said that. I reiterated the fact we didn't have enough money to move there. We discussed it and I told her we were finally in a spot that we could buy a house if we just save a little more and we actually have some rainey day money. She said she could finance it. Guess what she couldn't. Then she said fine I will just get the augmentation it only costs $2,600 for that. Long story short she dropped 6k on it cash. A month later the company I worked for closed it's doors.

I had to borrow 2k from my aunt to pay the rent. I had to get a job immediately to keep my kids off the street. I got the job worked my tail off to pay my Aunt back and to pay all of the bills that were late. I Did it all by myself.

In the meantime my FWW was busy opening up a new Victoria's Secret credit card account and buying new clothes to show off the body work she had done.

Today when we talk about this situation do you know what she brings up? She was mad at me because I took that job without consulting with her.(BTW without getting that job our whole family would have been screwed) I was supposed to look for a job back east. I had told her before the surgery that if we had the money I would consider moving. I told her while I was looking how much trouble we were in if I didn't get a job. I worked like heck to get us out from under her selfish act and guess what she resents me for it.

So there you go. It sucks but I have a lifetime supply of lemonade that I am making from all of these lemons. Hopefully my wife will supply the sugar so at least it tastes sweeter.

Post deleted by Hiker45

Hiker

No this wasn't for OM or for the A. This was well before then and I saw it all. I couldn't understand why she needed an $80 dollar bra to hold up boobs that stood up on their own thanks to the good doctor. LOL

Her A took place way after that. I know the surgery set the wheels in motion though. Why build a better body if you are not going to use it. LOL. Oh well live and learn.

Hey, MDC...isn't it this week she'll be home?

How are you doing?

What are you feeling?

Where's all the practice stuff? Am I gonna have to get out my ruler and snap your knuckles?

:::shuddering::: Oh, that was what the nun did at my piano lessons...yech!

LA

OMG HL - that's a heck of a story. I don't feel so alone now. Do you feel like you're taking care of a pre-teen? Where do you find the energy? Sometimes it just grinds me into dust!

Ouch Hiker - that's a painful trigger. Have you burned it yet?? Not lingerie but I burned a shirt that OM gave WW and it felt GREAT.

LA & company - I don't know how I missed the replies to my thread! I check MB several times a day!

LA - yes she's coming home Saturday. I feel pretty centered and calm. Today. Not every day. Most days.

What do you mean “practice stuff”?

I've been listening carefully to her when we talk on the phone. We have very few – and very short – conversations. Repeating and respecting. REALLY listening.

One night I wasn't paying attention to what she was saying - and it was like me in the old days. I could see how DIFFERENT it was in the context of all the times recently when I've been so aware of what she's saying and really feeling what she's feeling.

It made me realize how LITTLE I was listening to her in the past! I am seeing her as a PERSON now and I can't tell you how different that is.

Have you seen the movie "We Don't Live Here Anymore"? Wow. An affair smorgasbord. Laura Dern’s character says to her H something along the lines of – “You love me for what I DO and not who I am…and there is a difference.”

That was ME. I saw my wife for what she DID not who she WAS. JUDGED her for what she did. And the more I love my wife for who she is the better I feel about…me.

I did a big truth share with her via email last week. There were so many things I wanted to say that were really “couch” conversations that I just couldn’t hold in any longer. I put most of them in an email. Her only response was that she read the letter and loved me. I put a lot of good stuff in there that I believe can be a foundation for us to draw from as needed.

In the letter I told her I’d do whatever it took to build a beautiful marriage and asked her if she would do the same. Lots of other things too. Basic MB stuff. No judgments. Lots of truths, boundaries and invitations.

Some of those things may have stuck because today when I asked her – via email – if OM had been in contact with her she said ‘yes, yesterday’.

She wrote:

[color:"blue"] He has tried to contact me via IM (yesterday) and open up a dialogue, but I have not responded and actually closed out of my IM tool. He immediately sent me an e-mail telling me what a horrible, cold, cruel person I am. He basically wanted to know when I was coming back to the office so it wouldn’t be a bomb being dropped on him. So, I told him when I’d be back. That was all. I’m not worried about him bothering me at work and in person – and you shouldn’t either. Although it’s perfectly understandable that you are concerned. I am COMPLETELY sensitive to that concern…I want you to know that. I’ll do whatever it takes to allay your fears until I find another gig and the whole Buttinsky thing is a non-issue. I want you to know that, too.
[/color]
Then I responded:

[color:"blue"]
Thanks sweetie. Appreciate hearing that from you.

The most powerful thing you can do is share all interaction with me as soon as it happens so that there is absolutely nothing hidden or secret between us AND so that we can work on this together, united. I'm here to help you through this as much as you're here to help me. Don't shoulder the burden alone and don't keep anything to yourself. Please. Let's do this together, OK?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
[/color]

She responsded:
[color:"blue"]
We’re on the same page. That is why I was forwarding all those other e-mails to you. I just honestly didn’t do it yesterday because it was so insignificant to me—just an annoyance to be dealt with. But I will continue to share ALL this crap with you so we can rebuild the trust, okay? I love you. [/color]

Fore a while I focused on things like – “Why doesn’t she block his name from the IM tool?” “Why did she tell me she didn’t work yesterday when clearly she did? What else is she hiding from me? Have they been talking on the phone every day? Am I being PLAYED???”

After chewing on these thoughts for 3-4 hours today I decided to take her up on the invitation to do whatever it took for the marriage and sent a note asking for a NC letter – because one was never sent and it seemed like a good idea in light of the fact that OM was still making overtures. I asked in no uncertain terms what I’ve been wanting to ask for weeks – NC letter, ignore all correspondence from him, notify me immediately if he attempts contact, etc. I did ask for these things in the past but I don’t really think she was listening to me – still in the fog I believe.

So she thanked me for writing the NC letter, said she was uncomfortable sending it to his work address – private email is OK with me, right? That was about 30 minutes ago.

I’m aware that she may be deceiving me. Or she may not be. I’ve gotten to the place where my action is the same no matter which I believe to be true.

Yesterday she was in such a good mood, I got suspicious. Seemed like she had taken a hit of something. So I suspected a conversation with OM. I’m also open to the fact that yesterday may have been a good day for her. Maybe she felt separation from OM yesterday. I just don’t know the truth and cannot verify until she gets home. Cautiously optimistic.

If I'm able to verify that there is deception then there will be exposure at work. And elsewhere. I know - No Exposure Boy means little respect on the MB boards. No worries. I'm getting the help and support here when I need it.

Oh and her latest on the job is this - we cannot afford for her to quit. We've agreed she will get out to another job ASAP. I have my suspicious that she thinks she can wait me out on this one. Even though I've clearly stated that she must find a new job and why.

I can see that she’s putting herself in a position where deception right now would be EXTRA damaging to her. I’m relying on her conscious to do some work here. LA – you said it well once. Can’t remember how you put it but it was something along the lines of “respect that she can think for herself”. Something like that.

That’s the latest! I’ll probably get pretty active on the forum once she’s back. I’m going to go against my nature and not boil the ocean. Expect everything at once. Baby steps, baby steps. I’ll keep posting here to ensure that I’m making progress and not stalling out.

As always thank you everyone for your support.

PS - I removed "NC since 5/5/06" from my signature tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

WW sent the NC letter to OM last night.

So he calls ME first thing this morning. 6:45. All 3 lines - office, home, cell. Leaves text messaages, voice messages - "I want to get out of the way I really do can I talk to you."

So on the thrid round of calls I picked up. Says that he wants to get out of the way but WW has hurt him so unbelievably bad he'll never get over it. She's so cold and cruel he says. Did things to him that he could never imagine.

So he says this is not about me or us (WW and I) but about HIM. And how he needs 30 minutes with her. How we are making it so hard and it we can make it so EASY if we'd just give him this time.

I cut him off and said that "you made a decision to date a married woman" he said "yes and she dated a married man". I said "And she's paying the consequeces and so are you - pain suffering and hurt. This is where it ends." and I hung up.

What is with this guy? This is ridiculous.

Anyway I'm a little rattled.

Great way to stay strong and respectful, MDC.

This passes...this closure crap isn't reasonable...and you didn't fall for it. Keep it that way and no more contact from you, 'k? Period. No matter what the messages say.

Did you not expose to OMW? I forget.

Anyway...you're on this, and yes, rattled...you just got the jet-stream of the wild and insane stuff...very childish (well, so did she!)..affairese...the language is 5-years-old...and you didn't go there.

It is rattling hearing adult voices speaking childtalk...

Breathe!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thanks LA. I have spoken with OMW. She served him D papers on his Bday in late March. Wants nothing to do with him.

The other tidbit I forgot is that he said that BOTH of us had hurt him badly. A month ago he was blaming me for ruining any chance he had a reconciliation with his W because I had told her the TRUTH about the A when he was saying right up through the D papers that they were just friends. Geez. This guy needs help. He's MESSED up.

He called back and I unplugged all the phones. I'm sure there's a long email from him in my future.

Oh and he said "I don't even WANT her back." All this is priceless stuff. I wouldn't have answered the phone but I knew this would bug me all day.



That's awesome. I hope is he's being rattled by maturity - of course he thinks it's cruelty. He's the vicitim in this. Just unbelievalbe.

I'm concerned about him harrassing WW when she goes back. Or harassing me for that matter! WW keeps saying it's not going to be a problem. Well this is a problem! When is he goinig to drop off the map.

This sounds TOO familiar....

My FWW and the OM worked together. After D-Day we mulled over hear leaving the job, and decided that it was not the best financial decision at the time. Now, months later I regret putting finances in front - her continuing to work with the OM delayed any serious recovery in our M by six months IMO.

A suggestion: go through different scenarios of C between your FWW and the OM, and ask her how she'd handle it, to see if you're comfortable with it. For example, I asked my FWW "what would you do if the OM sends you an e-mail a year from now, trying to reopen contact?" She replied that she would reply to him and tell him that she did not want to be contacted by him. I suggested that she not reply at all (no contact means that NO CONTACT), and that the e-mail should be forwarded to me, after which we can decide on a suitable response, if any - from me.

I don't know if I'm at D-day #2 or what's going...

OM was very angry at the NC letter WW sent. Sent both of us an email. Provided graphic sexaul details that make me want to puke. And run

Damn - that's probably going to hurt for awhile (it did for quite awhile in my case, and I heard the details under better conditions), but it's also good news - he's doing an excellent job of making withdrawals from your FWW's Love Bank when he does crap like that.

Yeah - I really do think it's over between them and has been for a month. What I'm left with now is this pharase rining in my ear - "unprotected sex in your marital bed while your H was in the hospital".

What do I do. WW got a copy of the letter. I was going to send her a note saying something along the lines of - "this is hurtful but truthful. and truth is good. it would likely have taken us months to work through this. and it's been done in an instant. that's the upside."

I don't know if I should call her. I don't know what to do.

She's very avoidant about this stuff.

Why did you choose to read it, MDC? Why not delete without looking?

Your choice. Know your power. Protect yourself. From the calls, can you find out today what your legal rights are pertaining to harassment? Not to take action...to have knowledge...

Delete...do not open...toxic gas will explode...OM is self-destructing...do not participate.

LA

"What if I cornered your H and told him about our vast oral sex escapades...that I can still hear you calling my name out? It echoes in my ears."

How am I going to get over these things?? How am I ever going to have SF w/WW again?????????????????

So OM says this happened and you automatically believe him...no questioning his motive or veracity...

He is a liar and a cheat...and you are calling this truth.

Wow.

LA

LA - I read because I SUSPECTED that he would divulge something that WW would not or was not. I could have been MONTHS or YEARS before I got this kind of information from her. That's why I looked.

I would suggest calling her instead (perhaps you might be able to get to speak to her BEFORE she reads the e-mail), indicate what's in the e-mail, and say something along the lines of what you suggested. I'd also suggest that you strongly suggest to her that she does NOT break NC and reply to his e-mail, no matter how tempted she is to do so. This may be OM's way of trying to pull her back into C with him.

And BTW, I've got worse triggers to work with than the one you mentioned, and most of them don't bother me that much any more, one year after D-Day (and about 6 months after full disclosure).

Good point.

What do I do right now??? I don't know what to do. If I treat it as suspect with WW she may take me up on the opportunity and deny and lie. Then where does that leave us???

Should I call WW??

call her and say what - tell her not to read it?

That's good to know. I'm so disgusted.

That's really her choice to make, not yours.

True.

Talked to her this morning and she was mad at me because she thought the NC letter would just stir the pot. It did. And make it harder for her at work. And that I don't CARE if it's harder for her at work. That all I care about is him sucking her back into his world.

I reassured her that the NC letter WITH 1000% no contact really IS THE best way to go. And that we're in a storm now but it would pass.

Likely she will use this as proof that the NC letter was a bad idea.

If that does turn out to be the case, it might be interesting to find out exactly why she thinks it was a bad idea. If anything, that e-mail from the OM clearly shows the kind of despicable character that you both have to deal with.

Be still, MDC.

Breathe.

Tell us your truth and then you can guide yourself.

Own what is yours...you are prepared to believe him automatically...you believe he is authentic...why?

Is it your desire for this truth...you didn't get it in the first EA, and now you're thirsting for it...I hear you...I was there and I remember...I do...

You identify what you want most...then you find your respect...not get it at any cost...know when your own wishfulness--anything with "if" in it...if only she would just tell me the truth...what if she says this but not this--and monitor it. Reality is where you want to stay...thrive...respectful reality.

LA

MDC -


Time. Building new, pleasant memories with your wife.

The OM is going to do everything in his power to hurt you, simply because you have something that he wants or wanted. He's going to try and make himself feel better at your expense.

As LA said, you don't even know if it's true. And if it is? So what. I don't mean to sound cavalier. Take the long-term view.

You've been married 5 years, probably together longer. He was with her for 5 months. You'll probably spend a couple of years recovering and rebuilding your marriage, and your both young (around my age). That means you could conceivably have another 50 years together in a marriage beyond your wildest dreams.

What will OM have? A failed marriage (his). A simple 5 months of fantasy - and years of misery and pain from the rejection of your wife (and most likely his).

Guess what? That's his problem. He is suffering the consequences of his actions and choices.

Yes, the things he told you (if they're true) hurt. The fact that your wife was with him at all hurts. But time and effort can heal those wounds, and you will find a happy life. Chances are good that OM will never get a clue and have a miserable life.

Again, not trying to sound cavalier. I can identify with a lot of what you write and are going through. The above are some of the things that I tell myself.

In the end, all OM will have is memories. You have what sounds like a very good chance to have the real thing for the rest of your life.

Which would you prefer? Archived e-mails, pictures, and memories, or the real, living, breathing, warm body of your wife, knowing you have her love and affection?

Why not forward his email to his BW, MDC?

Not for a response...not to do anything...sharing truth...that's what you called it...not his truth.

LA

MDC -


Wow! What an @ss. Ok, as I said a few minutes ago, I can identify with a lot of what you write and say.

In our case, OM was a friend of mine. I've heard (both from him directly once, and several times from MP) that he's done and wants nothing to do with her, that she hurt him so bad while he was going through a very rough time in his life. That she wouldn't be even a friend for him during his tough time.

Cry me a river. Sheesh. I have no intention of talking to him ever again, but if I did I would point out that he could have easily kept both of us as his friends if he'd kept his [censored] in his pants.

However, despite all the hurt she caused him (which he brought on himself by his actions), there is still contact. Very intermittent, and as much as I can tell initiated by him.

The last round of contact was via e-mail, and MP told me the day it happened. She also forwarded his e-mail and her reply. Interesting thing here....he's blocked her e-mails (again). So yes, he's being manipulative and playing games (IMO).

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that OM would jump at the chance to get back with your wife, despite what he says. The OP cannot be trusted anymore than an active WS.

You've said your peace - leave it at that. Do not respond to him, or read anything else he sends. Don't give him that power over you.

The responsibility for NC lies squarely on the shoulders of the WS. It is up to the WS to not only not initiate contact, but to also not respond to any contacts by OP. Your wife needs to understand and get this, and it sounds like she's starting to.

If you need to step in to protect your wife, once she has demonstrated her comittment to NC and he keeps trying, then by all means do so. I have told MP that very thing - I have no problem stepping in and doing what I need to to get OM out of our lives if I know that MP wants NC with him. Until then, I look to her to enforce it.

Hang in there, MDC. While not 100% familiar with your story, it sounds like things are looking up. Don't dwell on the negatives or the valleys - you'll encounter more peaks and positives as time goes on.

Rubbish! I had the same concerns in our case (of course, OM refused the NC letter). A NC letter is not meant to make the OP go away (though it would be nice if it did, and maybe it does sometimes).

The NC letter is all about the WS demonstrating committment to the BS. It's a written statement by the WS stating that they value their spouse and family, and that the affair was a mistake.

By definition and demonstration, the OP is not an honorable person, so expecting them to quietly acquiesce to the NC letter is fruitless.

It's not an apology (to the OP). It's not an offer for closure.

So he told you he wanted 30 minutes for closure? Guess what, we don't always get closure in our lives. My mom committed suicide 4 years ago - what kind of closure did I get with that? None.

Is the fact that my mom suddenly disappeared her problem? Nope - it's mine. Is the fact that OP is suddenly and permanently out of your wife's life your or your wife's problem? Nope. It's his.

Expecting a mature, honorable action out of an OP is like expecting a young child to not take the candy sitting in plain sight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Bird. I don't care about the OM. I'm not occupied with thoughts of him. Don't have the anger and hate a lot of BS's have for OP. Your words help put all this in perspective. Right now I'm angry and hurt and so tired of ALL this. I want to burn the mattress!!!

MiM great point about the NC letter.

LA - who is BW? OMW?

I don't know what my truth is right now. I don't know what I want. just feel like I should call WW but don't know what to say.

MDC,

If your WW and OM work for the same employer (I have not read your entire thread, but gather that to be the case), she has communicated that any further relationship with him is unwelcome (i.e., the no contact letter), and he continues to pursue her/harass you via text messages, email, anything, he is sexually harassing her. SHE MUST report this to her employer immediately. The employerr will put a stop to it, I promise, because if they don't, your wife can file a sexual harassment lawsuit against him and the employer.

Regards,

BB

Be strong MDC. This definitely sucks but at least you two are heading in the right direction out of this mess.

It's okay to hold off taking action before you know your truth...isn't it? You want to be authentic...and right now, you're angry, hurt and tired.

Do not call WW right now...give yourself time to be hurt, angry and tired...you're worth it.

Notice how many are with you at this time, MDC...you're not alone...wrong...you're loved.

LA

LA -

I believe his account of events is authentic. With respect to the hospital - I knew OM was at our house. I have evidence. I don't know what happened. While I understand that he may be telling lies about what happened right now I trust his version of events more than WW. She has something to protect. He does not.

I don't hold his version of our M to be authentic though. When he says

"..I am not the guy who scoffed at you for the last 5 years when you said you were sad." and " I am not the one who chuckled when he found out another man loved you. I am not the one who it took you having an affair to wake up and realize what a special person you CAN be."

i don't hold these things to be reality. I can't help but wonder how much WW thinks that these things are real. Like all other WSs these statements defined her reality during the A.

And yes - I am thirsting for truth. And yes it probably has to do with me not getting it in the first A. If you remember as recently as last week WW would not even call the 1st A an A. It was "that guy I emailed a couple times that you freaked out about."

So what do I want? Truth. I don't want it all right away I just want there to be some honesty, caring and acceptance between us. I don't want us to tiptoe around this like it's not happening. I want to meet it head-on. I want her to share herself with me. Want her to open up. I feel like truth and honesty has been missing from our M for years and we're just dealing with this like we do everything else - with avoidance! I'm so tired of avoidance.

This is who we are. This is what is happening. We need each other to get through it. I want communication.

You're right. I don't need to figure this out right now. I CAN wait and sort and process and post. I know this.

BB - I know I can go to the HR dept re: harrassment. I need agreement from WW to do that. And I am 99% sure that she will not want the embarassment or the disruption.

NG - thanks for the words. I know this insanity in my brain is temporary. Part of working it out is posting here. I appreciate your support.

BW is betrayed wife? Forwarding to her would produce another onslaught from him. Is that what I want??

"Notice how many are with you at this time, MDC...you're not alone...wrong...you're loved."

I do notice this. Thank you everyone.

Hi MDC,

Just to let you know, many a OW's have claimed pregnancy, and you know what? They were lying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. Go figure.

He's hurt and angry and lashing out. I'd give him about 10% credibilty at best. You knew there was an A, you knew he was at your house, he knew you knew these things and poked you where it'd hurt.

It's hardly ever as bad as the BS thinks... OM is dropping bombs hoping to hit something. He did. Please dont react.

And many a BS has thrown their bedsets to the curb... sounds ok to me, but you didnt need OM to confirm that.

If OMW's really filed for D, dont forward his email to her. Maybe forward it to his mother?

It's a very well known fact here at MB - Recovery IS harder than Divorce. But payoff is higher. Please take care of yourself and hang tuff! - Dru

Dru - good point.



SLOWLY coming around to it not mattering as much. This is just another part of the psychotic A-world. Add it to the pile, right?

Yes as a man he knew exactly where and how to hit me. And he nailed me right between the eyes. I will not react. Saving it all for MB. His letter is already humorous to me.

For example he says "...looking to discuss this with you or BH in an intelligent, civilized way is going to be impossible."

Like there can be an adult, Kumbyah ending to this.

That IS funny. Good gosh! I cant imagine how that discussion would go. What a freak!


Well, it's part of recovery. If you had gone straight to D you could have skipped all of this. But you have kids, you see hope in your W, so Recovery it is. Recovery is hard. Take the high road, always!

Hang tuff! - Dru

Thanks Dru.

Another gem. Curious - is it normal for an OM to flip out like this??


VERY hard not to respond to some of this, MB style. REALLY just want to send him a link to this forum and ask him to post. He's the kind that will be drawn in immediately from the first response to post.

Good grief MDC...I hope you're not still getting new messages or conversations from this twit.


Translation: I still want to be involved. I want to have the last word.


Translation: I want to end things on my term, and continue to interfer in my marriage. Or, I want to interfere in your marriage to help make things right.


Translation: I can't get my way, so you're either stupid for not letting me get what I want, or heartless for not letting me interfere in your marriage anymore.

He is right....if he'd never entered into an affair with your wife, it would have been over a month ago because it would never have started. And it certainly would have been easier for all parties involved if he'd kept his pants zipped.

Geez...I don't know whether to yell or laugh at the stuff he says. I wonder if he's related to my wife's OM at all? He's the one who told me, after MP came clean with everything (as far as I can tell) that happened (about a month after d-day) that believe him or not, he had been trying to help save my marriage (I so wanted to ask "How? By screwing my wife?").

Sad to say, I'm willing to bet that the OM in your situation (and the one in mine) will probably believe we should thank them for "waking us up" to the problems in our marriage.

Go figure.

I'll stop ranting now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I dont know about 'normal' but it sure happens.

One BW here on MB was attacked and beaten with a baseball bat by the OW and ended up in the hospital after the WH broke it off with OW! Another OM (Dazed and Confused's WW's?) stalked the family for a while and would call saying he was 'watching them'. Creepy.

And as I said, more than a few OW's mysteriously claimed pregnancy after being dumped. Some will pull out all the stops when dumped. It does help when these psyco OP's start showing their true colors. They become very unattractive to the WS. So if you look at it that way, it's a good thing he's flipped his lid. Your W will feel very betrayed.

And it's apparent (to me)that he thought he still had an in with your W, or he would not have been so upset at her request for NC. If he really thought it was over, I cant imagine he'd be so upset. Now he KNOWS. That's why he's freaked. Good. What a piece of poop!

Hopefully he got it out of his system, but I'd be careful. Watch you back, tell your W to be careful, keep an close eye on the kids. If he pulls anything stupid YOU can get a restraining order on him, w/o your wifes approval or even knowledge, if you have to, to keep your family safe. Just be careful, ok? - Dru

NO! NO! NO!

He's an OP, he's not a repentant FWS. They use this information to their advantage. Do not send him here, ever. He's not your problem. Concentrate on yourself, your family, and your marriage. Stop waisting brain-time on this SOB!!! Please? Pretty please?

If nothing else, it's totally against MB principles to try to educate your S's former affair partner! It's pointless and distracts the BS from the matters of recovery.

Stay focused, he's trying to start WWIII between you and your W. Dont let him. He's done enough damage, dont you think??

Please do something nice with your W this weekend. Put all the recovery stuff on hold for an evening and do something fun. Rebuild those good feelings, you need this, ok? Focus! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm about gone for the weekend, I'll check back on Monday. It can be pretty slow around here on the weekends, so just try to focus on the basics, ok? Good luck and please take care! - Dru

OK!! I won't, I won't!!!

He IS trying to start WWIII. He wants it SO bad. WW is now furious at him. The NC letter filled it's purpose - it established us as a united front against continuation of the A through contact. WW and I are now dialoging back and forth about what a nut job OM is. He's lost it.

MDC,

Now you understand the role of the NC letter. It is very very subtle but it will help you and W deal with this mess and the nut that is/was the OM.

God Bless,

JL

yes, yes, yes! The NC letter is a BOND. I'm glad I did not give up on it. The timing was pefect yesterday to get WW to agree to send it.

Bird - funny translations. Thanks for the laughs! OM makes me laugh WAY more often than yell. Yes if you asked OM whether he thought he saved our M I'm sure he'd say yes.



He's got some strong BS. Strong in large part because he believes it. I can see now how WW was eating all his BS up as justification for the A. This was a dangerous and very deluded affair couple. But then aren't they all...

The tidbits I'm giving you are all from the same email. In one he sent WW this AM that she forwarded me he asks WW to "...please wake up to the things that MDC did to BW and I."

This is my favorite. Ran it by me about a month ago too. He blames me for being unable to reconcile with his W because I filled her in on all the details that he would not tell her. Even as she was serving him D papers he was sticking with the "just friends" story. Her and I spoke a couple weeks after she served him.

About a month after papers OM and OMW met and I'm pretty sure she laid a trap for him with the knowledge she had from our coverstaion vs. the "just friends" story OM was spewing. And she nailed him. And he's furious about it! 6 weeks later! I love it!!

He wants WW to leave the job because it is "not fair" for him that she's there. (She's working on her resume now and I believe her this time.)

Another one that makes me laugh out loud is "...I am tired of how cold and mean the MDC family is and just want it to stop amicably." I guess he wants all of us to be FRIENDS? Go out to dinner??

Anyway - may look like it but I'm not negavitely obessing on OM. I am just AMAZED, really, at the delusion. WW picked a winnner.

Could make great comedy out of WS and OP dialog. A play perhaps.

So grateful for EVERYONE on my thread today for helping me keep my sanity.

Dru -



Absolutely right. Proof positive that the NC letter was necessary! He freaked OUT today!!! He's done this 3 or 4 times in the last 6 weeks. Since WW told him she was going back to me on 5/1. Never this big though. Hopefully WW NOW sees how important NC REALLY is.

Hey, MDC...great post over on 213's thread...

You're no protege'...you're you, in full bloom...was in you all along...now you're a member of the mutual respect society...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been following your posts and something occurred to me...you said your wife really picked a winner (insert sarcasm)...

All APs are terrible...like a species. I know...because you have to be a mess to be in one. Just wanted to kill that fantasy some people have of fearing the OP is better somehow...like that would make it okay, losing to a better person...and it doesn't, of course. Doesn't happen. Can't.

Also, I wanted to share what you have learned from a different angle...it took two to have the A...and the OP spoke the language WW wanted to hear...equally culpable...part of the fantasy fulfillment...so your WW didn't do it alone (she did it to you, by choice); and she did the same to his BW...equally.

I bring this up because I realized why it was important for my BH to understand my fog...and it isn't, btw...but in withdrawal and recovery, it was at times a desperate need in me to know my BH knew I was influenced...had a drug dealer...not to victim status, by no means, but that when I stopped allowing BH's influence (pre-A), then I made myself ripe for OM's influence...took it in like water from a great thirst. This is what Harley means by know your weaknesses...and somehow, in me, when my H was WH, and he stood by (while in contact) that he didn't allow OW to talk me down; she was a saint...that he later realized, after withdrawal, and recognizing the fantasy drug injections he'd been taking...that she did, subtly, slyly, influence him...and that he allowed that influence greatly because he had cut mine off.

How do waywards get that way? No excuse...but great to know for the future? Allowing our partner's influence...respectful hearing them, being present and aware, is important...won't protect us from infidelity, but being conscious of who's influence we allow is really important...and who we cut off...

We cut off AP's influence...and it may be the first time in our lives we know we have that power...it's what we do with no contact...and then we see that we choose to allow our spouse's influence...doesn't just come in because we love like we thought...it's a choice. More power.

I share this with you, MDC, for a ways into your recovery...because you may hear her desire this understanding and acknowledgement from you...and hear it as a cop out, an excuse. What you choose to believe matters greatly in recovery...and the pain we feel at having been cut off, without influence, can stay in you for years and years...unaware of this primal fear...forming into bitterness and resentment...

Delibrately remember...it took two...and a fog...and a fantasy...and a lot of pain and false feelings...took a mess to be in one...so you recognize your dear wife, because it takes an adult to be married.

LA

LA - it was the Shirly Glass book that helped me understand the OP 'species' as damaged by definition. Once I understood that, and got a first-hand look at sick OP behavior, OM stopped being a threat.

Thank you for articulating what is in my heart re: influence. I fully understand and agree with what you are saying. It takes two. Perfectly matched in an imperfect way.

If the OP was not as good at creating and believing in his own reality, WW would not have lived and breathed in it. It was a powerful combination.

You explain this SO well. Thank you.

Since it's out on the table, do you think this is a good time to ask WW to confirm the claims that OM makes in his letter re: SF? Everyone is raw right now & since the wound is open....

She saw his letter and has said nothing. Actually she's worried because it was sent to her corporate email address and screened by the firewall - she didn't get it - because of the words contained in it. "Oral sex" did the trick I'm sure. She fears exposure and trouble at work for this. I thought there would be SOME fear of ME knowing about these things. Expectations, I know.

I even forwaraded the email to her personal address (manipulative) because I wanted her to know I knew. Thinking it would make a good jumping off point to explore the events - without gory detail - that I'm going to need to go back to for recovery.

Not now, MDC...

That's for later...and I know that's a heckuva lot to ask...your WW is only now going no contact...she's been wrestling her fog...and you really don't know if she's been winning or losing, do you?

Wait. Do you want truth or lies? Or half-lies? Choose your time...and these truths are worth waiting for...when she understands and acknowledges them in herself...and how much she can amend by answering everything in one fell swope because the parcelling kills...wait

The goal of no contact and withdrawal is for her to come to terms with her own truth...and reality...you're falling back into your defensive manipulative intent instead of choosing a pure one...know your true desire, MDC...I believe it is for truth...which is worth waiting for...and not fast...whatever.

Allow her to have her own fears...you're not her cure or cause, remember? Hear them, repeat and acknowledge...no assurance or mitigation...these are real consequences of her choices...they come for a long time, too.

Sit and breathe...choose not to recall those words, to think on what may be truth or not...do not dwell on what lines up or doesn't...because you can't sleuth your way to recovery in your mind...takes two minds...one goal...and you have that, tenuously, like fresh grass...at the beginning...

You recognized your expectations...you have more...mixed in with your wishfulness...happens each step you can see and call a forward one...and that measuring will trip you...find out how it nourishes you...what parts...find out what you're getting through your expectations and give it directly to yourself by choice...

You're correct in knowing how important it is to your healing to step by step go through it...or not...concentrate on that now, in you...what do you really need to know or not...and why...without saying a word of it to her now.

Time well-spent. This is all hindsight for me...and my wishful self reaching out to yours...

LA

LA - you post made me think. Maybe I should have more anger (not really the right word) for OM than I do. Might be OK now to move some of that off my WW.

Got to add "NC Letter sent" to my sig today!!


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, add this to your sigline!!

You're self-perceptive...no "shoulds" in there...consider that APs are like a seesaw...got two on a board and you have sway in your mind...balanced, maybe? Notice when you're going from one extreme to the other?

Equal parts and weight...difficult to do...I went from one to the other and back again...no balance...and then, balance...takes time...I wasn't as aware...you are...stay in touch with the anger...you know it's ignited by either fear or pain...trace it back further, even...identify each fear in its parts...trace those back...

Like a boardgame you can play to consume the rainy day while you wait it out...

She's home tomorrow? Wow...and your kids, too? Wow. Big week, MDC.

LA

P.S. And know the balance in the NC Letter...you didn't get her to do it...she chose...and you had influence, not control. Reinforce her choice...helps break the manipulative intent...and bolsters the respect.

Thanks LA.

What do I do with the SF knowledge I have? Feels like an elephant in the room to me. I told her - in email - that I would not accept his reality as truth. That I would rely on her for truth.

What do I do with this? It's hanging out there for me.

Okay, your concerns...have you had SF since her A?

If you already have...then STD tests before resuming SF is rather moot. What do you think?

Still, having STD tests are a natural consequence of her A...I had SF with WH before I knew it was a PA (he waited three months to drop that bomb...though he left clues along the way, which I refused to see)...

And so we had to do the tests, anyway.

LA

P.S. After I hit submit...I saw your "It's hanging out there for me." and I had a red-faced laugh for a second...then I decided to share it...just thought this was an unintentional statement, in regards to SF...and maybe you could use a laugh. If I could go back...I would answer,

"For everyone to SEE?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Yes we have had SF. Once. Probaby moot. Not an expert. I think testing is in order though.

LA - thanks for the laugh.

What I meant that was "hanging out" was the fact that OM gave me specific information about thier sexual encounters that I am holding out on accepting as truth until I get confirmation from WW. When do I ask for confirmation from WW? This has been bothering me all day.

She'll sweep it under the rug. I don't want to sweep it. I want confirmation on the two details he brought up. Isn't now a good time to close these two things down? I guess now is impractical. And tomorrow night is too since it'll be her first night back. How do I do this??

Did you read my response earlier...to put out of your mind this information...you really need to wait awhile...she's coming home tomorrow...after a long time (feels like it)...

She can't sweep anything under the rug unless you comply. She doesn't have that power. That's your fear. Flip it over...are you afraid if you don't confront, you'll go back to CA'ing and sweep it under yourself?

I am asking you to wait, not sweep anything...

Recognize, you need this info for you...your desperate desire...not the marriage.

Do you want to soothe you or the save your marriage?

Like in not having an A...I could have chosen to not betrayed because of the marriage, even though I was feel great pain from my H...

This is a choice you make, MDC.

This is really tough...no doubt about it...not in the decision to ask, but in the decision of when...how long to wait. Each day you'll know better...I'm asking you do you want the truth or do you want a version of it two days after no contact?

I didn't see an answer.

Hmm...:::looking under the rug:::

LA

You won't be alone tomorrow...you'll be in many prayers...thoughts...wishes...

Your job? Be present.

LA

MDC -- And what if she says, "yes, that is true." What will you do with that? I agree you should not bring this up her first night home.

You have a great opportunity to Plan A here by telling her it doesn't matter what the OM says or writes -- you want your marriage and you want her back, unless you're not sure that that is the truth.

If you do this, you end up being the GREAT guy, not at all like the scumbag. Later, at some point, when you are in counseling, you may say you'd like to know the details.

I asked for details -- and it is hard to get those pictures out of your head. But they do fade. Just trust that time will help some of that.

Plan A now is trying to make home and with you a place she'd like to be. Emotions ARE raw now -- so leave them be for the time being. There's NO urgency here in finding out the details, except in your emotions. And I agree with LA -- don't dwell on it. Push the thoughts away -- consciously -- when they creep in.

If you pounce on her now demanding her version and details, you will likely not get the truth, at least not the whole truth.

Good luck!
Shellybird

I've GOT the details. They are in my head. OM gave them to me this morning. I hear what LA and you are saying about TIME though. Thank you.

Does it sound like we're giving consideration to your WW and not you?

Does it feel like another sacrifice when you're caved in with pain and being asked to move a boulder?

Do you know how to send on a detail, an image, in a few seconds, so you don't get the emotional punch with it?

Did you know you have a time limit in your brain on doing this?

I remember this day for me...it was loud with sorrow and pain--I wailed. I did. I had three months with my H at home before he disclosed the details and 10 days of NC...and I had a buffer of believing it wasn't a PA...only once, maybe, with the hotel receipt I'd found...

This is the part of metal melting onto skin and hope collapsing like skyscraper inside of you...and from the other side...long past on the other side...I'm here for you.

LA

LA - honestly what it feels like is that there's something missing. I think I'm trying to make myself angrier and more emotional about what I heard from OM yesterday than I am. I am not following the normal pattern. It's almost as if I want a deeper low but I'm not getting it.

Maybe I want to get mad and break something. Rip a mean line or two off to my WW. SOMETHING it seems should be happeing OTHER than benevolent acceptance. I'm not actually dwelling on the info itself I'm dwelling on the fact that it only took me a matter of hours yesterday - albeit difficult hours - to get over the details I got in OM's letter. They information was confirmation of what I suspected but even so! Why am I not angry anymore.

You asked if I'm worried that I will sweep - YES. I feel as if I have a relatively high threshhold for pain due to emotional/physical abuse in FOO and I'm worried that things will slip under the radar. But REALLY I'm not because I know I can do this the right way.

I guess I want some kind of short, intense drama to counter what seemed to be a pretty weightly revealation yesterday. I want a pound of flesh. But I'm not angry. I'm not! Why?? I don't feel empty - which was a common feelng for me in our M.

I think that this new way of thinking and living WITHOUT actions and reactions and more actions and more reactions is still really new to me and it feels strange. I'm breaking old patterns and habits I suppose.

So I'm NOT getting the punch, LA. That's the thing. And it makes me nervous.

Just feels as if something is missing.

Trust it will come...trust yourself to not sweep...because you're aware...

You have changed so much...

Not angry...maybe want a pound of flesh...

Hmmm...I don't know what emotion that would be.

Not empty...benevolent acceptance...could this be you kindly accepting self...and knowing these details aren't about you at all?

Maybe wanting a pound of flesh to make it about you...hence, no anger?

Fascinating...not worrisome, I think. You being really aware of you...and worried about self-deception, maybe?

Okay to not get the punch...you haven't heard it from the mouth you know...just the enemy's mouth...

LA

Yes! Accepting self and separating myelf from details that are not about me is NEW. Not my WAY. I've always tried to make it about myself. To control.


Yes again!


Yes. Self-deception. I ask that all the time - not nearly as much any more. Am I deceiving myself? Am I ALLOWING myself to feel or am I blocking? THIS is what makes me nervous.


That's a good point. Maybe. Though I do feel as if I heard it from her the sting would be short.

LA - I know what I wanted from WW yesterday when I forwarded her the email. I wanted her to read the email so she knew I knew. And I wanted her to say "Oh, MDC. I'm sorry you had to read that. I'm sorry that had to come from him. It must have been difficult for you."

That's all. That's all I wanted. Instead she asked if I though she was going to get in trouble at work. Then asked me how my day was. My day yesterday was TERRRILE. First half was anyway. I did not tell her anything. I was protecting her from it I think.

So no acknowledgement. Like it didn't even exist. I know about separating. I know. But I just can't believe she said not ONE word.

LA thank you for staying with me on this.

So you had an expectation/desire...which one? WW would "get it" and be concerned...shamed...and acknowledge...

You want her to demonstrate her care...

I gotta flip this for you...did you show yourself care through this ordeal? Did you ask yourself...MDC? Are we feeling shame which isn't ours? Are we feeling guilt which isn't ours?

Or is it your WW not acknowledging to you her consequences...only her fear of one consequence...which could be progress...that she shared one consequence about work...

You BETRAYED yourself? When she asked how your day was...where was your O&H? You protected her in the way you wanted her to protect you...by wishing you didn't have to hear it from OM...

There is the self-deception, MDC...don't you think? Believing you can protect her from what is yours (not hers); and wanting her to clean up after with recognition and ownership?

Where's yours, hmm?

You didn't say one word about what you felt through all that...your day...half a wreck and the other half not?

I don't think you can believe you didn't say ONE word...

LA

OMG - LA you're right. I can't believe I didn't say one word. Holy cow. I did betray myself. ARGH. THAT'S IT.

Good to know, huh? When we focus on what we're not getting from someone...usually, it is what we aren't giving...

A rule of thumb.

No slam.

Now, how do you feel?

LA

Well it feels good to know. A little anxious about finding a minute to tell her. Very simply. "Not something we must talk about right now but I want to tell you - When you asked me how my day was yesterday I was not honest. First half of Friday was a terrible for me. By the afternoon I was feeling better."

If she asks why - "OM phone call and the details he revealed in his letter."

MDC -

I think you're on the right track here. Emotional honesty is important in a relationship - it was one of the things that left our marriage vulnerable (my lack of emotional honesty).

The trick is to be emotionaly honest without LBing - that's something I still haven't managed. What you wrote above is very good - honest, but no LBs. I only wish I could master that concept so quickly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Bird! I'm working on it...

Here we go!! Showtime. Going to pick WW and kiddos from the airport. House is immacuate and I'm feeling fine.

So MDC… How did the convo w/your WW go?

I saw you reply to my thread (thanks by the way), so I came to read some of your thread. I’m interested to hear your latest details.

Hang in there!
--d2m3b.

D2 - Have not had any R convo since WW returned from her mothers last night after a 4 week visit.

I did JUST get a chance to do the snoop on her laptop and sure enough - they had been in contact. Nothing too heavy in the emails. She gave him her address & he sent flowers. Grrrrrrr. I'm 90% sure they also spoke on the phone.

I'm pretty unhappy about this though I suspected it. Guess I've just got to let it go along with everything else.

That's why the NC letter rialed him up so. Because she was giving him access...

So sick and tired of all this crap. To top it off, my heart is wigging out again and I'll probably have to go to the hospital to get it stabalized. Last time I was in the hospital there was unprotected sex in my marital bed. Or so I believe.

What's more is she's going back to the office tomorrow - where he works.

MDC,
Have you looked into a keylogger? I too thought my WW’s contact was fairly lite. That is until I discovered where to look. I installed a keylogger, then could see which accounts she used and their passwords. I hit the mother lode. Sometimes I wonder what the privacy laws are; but most of the time just realize she put me in this situation where I need to protect myself and children.

Good luck to you.
--d2m3b.

D2 - I tried a keylogger but her corp laptop antivirus found it...

Well - no more struggle over WW working at same place as OM. She was fired today for failing to work the 30 hrs/week she said she'd work while out at her mother's this past 4 weeks. They checked how long she was logged into the VPN.

This is what I wanted, we wanted - her to leave the job - but this is not how I wanted it. I'm so sad for her. She's been fired from jobs in the past for things like this and it's just so sad. I know she's going to feel bad about herself.

I have NO IDEA how we're going to make it even for a couple weeks without her income.

Ugh.

You know what - I should celebrate. It's OVER. That job and workplace was the source of so much AGONY and pain. Affair aside, the commute and the stress were brutal for her. For us. Add the A in and what that company, the building, the name symbolized and...I'm glad it's gone. Like the end of an era.

Still sad...

BTW - to anyone out there who's listening and may think that the WS can work at the same place as OP -- WRONG. Access via email, IM, covering contact under "work" related topics, etc. is just way, way too easy. Takes a very strong WS to shut it down properly.

When the affair was born and nurtured in the workplace, the APs have all these well-worn methods of communication. They've got their dance. Workplace is like a petri dish for the affair - it cultivates the existance of the A.

I don't believe WW was initiating contact with OM over the past 4 weeks. But she wasn't refusing it either.

This is not to say that a WS cannot refuse contact at the workplace - preferably while they are looking for another job. Mine didn't.

Now that I know WW will no longer be going to that place or be on the same email network, etc. I see how much easier it's going to be for ME and HER to begin inching past this whole ugly mess.

Hey, MDC...

I was watching you work this out for yourself...sometimes I do that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're very good at working your own life. You know that. The monetary aspect is worth whatever adjustments you can make for the sake of NC.

That's my belief. I was a slave to security, in the form of money...wouldn't spend it where we couldn't afford it...worked two jobs and didn't see my kids...until they made sure they were seen and I changed my life. Money can rule you or not...affairs have a way of making the finances a lot less important.

The cost of affairs is huge...whatever it takes in lowering your standard of living is worth it, if you get to keep the family you're working for...IMO.

Like a Mastercard commercial...baby diapers, $20; airline tickets home, $900; No Contact...priceless.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Maybe looking at how WW feels about pulling her half of the financial marriage...being a mother...feeling demands and expectations...from within and from you...knowing you prize her over anything else...that your marriage comes first...will change everything. Getting to your nitty gritty and hers...for a new marriage.

Remember, where your focus is, there is your treasure. If you worry about money for more of your thoughts than of her; if financial security (FS) is bigger than your mutual presence, there is where your marriage is formed, priorities made.

Of course, this is coming from someone who lived below the poverty line for more than half her marriage...who placed money ahead of health; who justified anything using survival as an excuse...and didn't get that the family was worth everything...

When our money issues went away, so did our marriage...because when I had FS, I then focused on what else was missing...I was in the routine of missing...fixing...focusing...

You can see where turning that focus inward made all the difference. I know you can. Discovering what is there instead of what is not...what mattered versus what was lacking.

You are on the road, solidly, MDC. Your WW owns what she did or did not do...you are partners and you signed up to be half...and you're doing great with that half. You're seeing the blessing...accepting reality, and choosing your priorities.

Celebrate.

LA

Wow. SO much like me. I was fixated on finances. Really did think that as long as I was providing for my family I was a good husband and father. I did not put our marriage over financial security. My priorities were wrong.

Different now. All this has shown me - all too clearly - that my family is ALL that matters. Funny how I'm now willing to do what ever, move where ever, for the family. Career doesn't matter. Driving one junky car doesn't mattter. None of that matters. I don't know how we're goinig to get through this - but we are. NC IS priceless. I can see that now. Already.

Would you believe I feel a little disappointed in myself for not insisting on WW leaving the job before this? I did tell her that it was what I wanted - that we would figure out the $$ somehow...

Also, with respect to finances - I felt like I could have lived without a lot of things but was working to please WW. Which is where my resentment began. It felt to me like SHE was the one that did not value our lives, our marriage and our family over finances. That she was complaining about what we didn't have - or what we'd never have. I got sucked up in that and took focus off the M.

Am I blaming? No. It was my decision to reprioritize. Perhaps she has learned that family is THE most valuable treasure as well.

Great stuff, LA. Thanks

Hey, MDC...you're welcome...to my life. Sounds a lot like yours.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I projected my FS concerns onto my H...I saw him as wanting more, a spendaholic...his fault...when in my own miserly way, I was the one who put money ahead of the marriage...he spent money to feel better about feeling inadequate...fun stuff, being human.

Do not get down on yourself...you said, "I don't want you working with him. I want you to leave your job." Hey, that's respectful, isn't it? No demand...expressed desire. Nothing to be down on yourself...don't do it to you or you'll do it to someone else!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Naw! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you find the ENs within the FS? Admiration, appreciation, pride of being an adult, being our parents (or not); lots of stuff in money...that isn't about money at all.

The only things you need is your marriage, children and internet connection...and this remote control...and this thermos...

Name the movie.

LA

The Jerk!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ding Ding Ding!

It comforted me, that movie...because Steve Martin nailed the inner child in an adult body so well...

Where's your inner child and how are you caring for him?

LA

LOVE that movie. In fact I quote that line at least a couple times a year.

LA - as usual, you nailed it. Since our FS sits are so similar I will have specific situation questions for you as they come up - and they will. SF has been MAJOR feature since day 1.

I too saw my W as being a spendaholic - when all she was doing was being human. Yes I put money in front of the marriage. WW would point it out and I would say - no, no, no, no. Money is IMPORTANT. It keeps the light on.

Stage was set from BEFORE the marriage. I was laid off 3 mos before the wedding. 1 month after the wedding (honey moon baby) W was pregnant. I was still umemployed and FREAKING out about being a new husband, new dad - and no job. I've been in the freak-out mode since. I don't think I've ALLOWED this family to be OK with money. I have made it such a major feature.

Thanks for the pass on the job. I needed to hear that from someone. I will do it for myself - recognize when I am respecting myself and give appropriate credit. I will. Still learning.

What am I doing for my inner child.... I am LIVING life. I'm not stressing. I'm giving myself permission to be - ME. Not obsessing about the future. In the present. And I'm celebrating the end of the affair. There's a little boy in my saying "yipeeeeeeee".

LA - was planning on starting counseling July 1 when insurance kicks in...

Is that too long?

I could be screening counselors now in preparation. Not looking forward to weeding thru the chaff. I guess I'm feeling burned about counselors right now because the last couple days I've been thinking about how much damange the last one caused to me and our M.

Hope that that MC's words are not still ringing in my WW's head. It took me a LOT of work to get past them. He take was this - you were bad to your W in the M and she waited for you. Now she's being bad to you in the M - and it's time for you to wait for her. Made it sound so natural, understandable that WW went and got a "boyfriend" as he put it.

Each counseling session - we did 2 together, 3 on my own - was permission for WW to be in the A.

We could do Harley. But it's SO much $$. And as damanging as those sessions were, WW and I got a lot out of going toggether. Being in the same room together talking about our M.

Harely is probably best bet because he'll reinforce MB principles.

If you plan on just being in the marriage until 7/1, I don't see the problem. I would talk about your fears and desires for what counseling will be like...and save your questions about details you want from the affair for that third-party time...if you want to...

Why not try a christian-based marriage counseling search in your area...I think those are the search words I used to get to mine...and you're right, finding someone is a gift..and know God will give you that opportunity.

I liked the presence of MC, too...whatever you decide, pray about it and be led...

I'm with you on how destructive counselors can be!!! When I was in my A, my BH was depressed (ya think?) and his counselor had me in to do a reality check...I was terrified...and she pretty much said the same thing your counselor did...BH was the bad guy and got what he deserved...gosh, I can't tell you the depth of my remorse when I woke up...owning my own cruelty (I leave hers to her own) and the vastness of my disregard is rough. Mortifying...and I'm not using hyperbole here.

I like your inner boy saying "yippeee!"...I think that's your adult self, too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I agree that I saw my H as a spendaholic, given my own miserliness...however, he is still struggling with his self-admitted spending to soothe and comfort addiction. The difference is, we have separate accounts...makes all the difference.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And he's come a long, long way...this was something I knew about him, he was upfront about, when we were dating...he was in consumer debt counseling then...not a hidden thing. Not a secret addiction.

There's a balance...again, how you perceive can be distorted...can still be based in a reality, when you adjust your focus, where there is two parts. I'm really glad you grasp your own part so well...I hear self-forgiveness in your post...knowing how you started off, given your patterns, there's no shame in you putting money in the wrong priority slot...nor me. Rejoice you are choosing differently.

Hey, did you see Bird's latest post? (Brokenbird)

Great to see you and get updates...

You rock.

LA

LA - I know we need to talk...about something. At this point I'm just enjoyinng my W and kids being home, having my family back and being out of the woods, as it were.

My next step is going to be sitting down with WW and going over PoJA. Just PoJA. And let that sink in for a week.

Also going to order a book of questions. So we can have dialog. Reconnect. The A is over but the connection has not been restored. Fortunately I feel a deep love between us. But a weak connection. Does that make sense?

LA, I'm surprised at my anger for the MC. It's pretty heavy. I felt betrayed by him.

I just looked at Bird's post and commented. He and are are on the same path.

Thanks as always, LA. 8 weeks ago I made the universal plea to God - "help!" - and I know that he sent you to me.

MDC -

Still around? Haven't heard anything in a few days. I hope things are going well for you and your family <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for thinking of me, Bird. Going OK I suppose. We're not talking about the relationship at all. Kind of in a holding pattern until we can get to a counselor. I bought a book of questions so we can start talking to each other - not something we've been good at.

We're working well together - cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids - so our lives are running smoothly. It helps that WW is not working anymore. There's a gap between us. To be honest I'm not looking forward to workingo on the M - I could be wrong but it seems like it's going to take a tremendous amount of energy.

Hey, MDC!

About reconnecting..Seven Principles that Make Marriage Work...by Gottman...has some really cool re-connecting stuff in there...playful and potent.

A tremendous amount of energy...please 'splain yerself, Lucy.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Could this be those old MC's words in your head, about waiting around...when in essence, MB asks you to wait out the withdrawal? Does it rub you raw with fear (behind the anger)? I'm wondering because it isn't what the MC's meant...it means, you choose, MDC...you were betrayed. You could not have earned the affair. You're free to go. In fact, be sure you want this more than anything you've ever wanted in your life...it is that hard...and that amazing.

Get set inside you, only you. This isn't a chore list...it's a life list...you're creative and marvelous, MDC. The questions book, enjoying your WW home...do you have an agreement to be transparent in place?

Are you monitoring any contact?

Without the work laptop that hated your keylogger, are you protected all around now for monitoring?

How's your sleep? Your exercise? Sounds like I am a book of questions...heehee. Free.

LOL

((((MDC)))

LA

LA - by tremendous amount of energy I mean that it's going to be ME that leads the charge. Nothing is going to happen unless I make it happen. I'm venting - I know that BS doing the heavy lifting is par for the recovery course. Doesn't it take a great amount of effort? I see recovering BSs lamenting all the time about what a pain it is to get WSs to come along in the recovery process. Just seems like a load of crap to me. That THEY do this to the M then we're the ones that have to come in and architect a plan for putting it all back together.

It's only been 2 weeks since NC. Maybe I'm angry that there was contact when I thought there was not and NC should have been going on for 6 weeks instead of 2. Maybe I'm diappointed that WW has not offered a single word on the A, our M or our R since she's been home. Maybe I think that there's something(s) she's not telling me - like I think that there was something more to her getting fired than she said there was. Maybe I'm angry at myself that I didn't expose and I feel like she's "getting away" with something. Our neighobors came over the other night - we really haven't seen them since all this garbage kicked up. I wanted to stand on the table and yell "WW had an affair and nearly destroyed our family!!" It feels like retribution and I'm unhappy with myself for thinking this way. I don't feel the purity and centeredness that I had before she came back. All jumbled up. I knew this would happen.

Right now we're basically good roommates.

I suppose I need to recognize that she's in withdrawl. MC words aren't hanging with me - consciously anyway. I hadn't thought of it the way you put it.

Contact is being monitored. There hasn't been a single blip. I'm suspicious that there's another phone. Our a courier carrying messages from our house. Something.

We kind of have a transparency agreement in place. She asked me what I wanted and I said complete honesty about the present. And I would do that same. Well I'm not. Because I'm not sharing THESE thoughts with her. And I'm spying on her like crazy.

We were SUPPOSED to have a transparency agreement in place when I left her in Shreveport. I was working hard during that time at sharing myself with her. She was sharing nearly nothing with me - she was in contact with him.

It makes me angry that she's so freaking contrary. I was ordering the Questions book online when she asked me what I was doing. I told her I was ordreing the book so we could get to know each other better. Reconnect. "That book's not very good." Shooting me down. I know how I oculd have responded but I didn't - "Do you have a suggestion, sweetie?"

Same thing happened with I shared some things I read out of a disipline book to deal with our 4 year old. She would do this in the past. And I have not had the cheerful, plan-A attitude that I need to have. I have't bitten back either - which I used to do. My response has been neutral/positive. If that makes sense. Better than negative, I suppose.

The things that she used to do that got under my skin are having their effect again. Not as deeply - neutral/positive, not negative - but they bother me. Like she called our girl a "freak" the other day. And dropped a mean f-bomb in front of her. So I ask her not to swear like that in front of the kids. What does she do? She FIGHTS me. That's part of what wore me down in this M to begin with. WW FIGHTING. This has nothing to do with the A. It's WW, pre-A. Pre meeting me.

If I dropped an f-bomb in front of the kids and WW called me on it - which she would - I would sheepishly and sincerely apologize.

LA I know exactly what I'm doing here. You're going to have a field day with me. My expectations - wanting her to BE like me - were MY contribution to the pre-A marital breakdown.

I would like some of what Hurtingless has got. Equanimity. His WW is no more reasonable than mine yet it appears as if he's got some peace in the way he deals with her.

Maybe I AM making progress, LA, because these things I'm describing aren't getting to me in the same way that they used to. I guess I'm frustrated that they're getting to me at all and that I'm not responding how I'd like to.

No I have not really been taking care of myself. That's part of the problem. I haven't engaged at work. I'm engaged in the surface of life - cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids - but not the underbelly.

MDC,

:::putting on my DJ patrol garb and grabbing my night stick::::

" Nothing is going to happen unless I make it happen."

Choosing to believe this DJ will make it manifest in your life. You will not see what she does, not value what she does, and eat your own lunch. Hardest part of recovery is giving yourself permission to DJ this way on this matter.

Choose differently.

Order your anger, MDC...venting is great if you can put it in order after you've written it all out.

Prioritize it...what makes you most angry? List them out, descending to least angry.

Then you'll be less angry when you finish it.

I read a lot of expectations, fear, entitlement and resentment in your vent. Those are all yours. No judgment. They feed your emotions, and give you false information because usually, they are false beliefs.

Thank goodness for MB...just realized something on Ears_Open thread...which I think will help you out here:

"I don't feel the purity and centeredness that I had before she came back."

Our issues are incubated in a relationship...with our caretakers...it is reasonable to only be able to work them out in one, isn't it? Like removing the problem instead of fixing it...you faced yourself more when she was gone with the kids and now, you're facing her more.

Still within your control.

Rely on me to throw stuff in your face...

""That book's not very good." Shooting me down." How did that shoot you down, and not the book? You feel shot down in a lot of ways...here is where your O&H shut off valve is stuck..."I feel shot down."

And it's God wanting you to get that Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work book, instead. (lol)

You are overrun with a lot of stuff not in the present...you're triggering to the marriage pre-A, during A, your own childhood issues and a ton of emotions and expectations in your head.

Cut yourself some slack. I think your eye of the storm peace gave you the belief you weren't in a storm at all...that's okay. Know you are. Know you're in the fight of your life. Withdrawal sucks. And it sucks your focus into her.

Which is within your control.

Breathing, remember that? You did a lot of that. Remember to breathe.

Might say the first step of Plan A is AIR.

Holding FWW to your own standards was an issue pre-A. Would that be correct?

Tell me all that's involved to holding someone else up to what is your own standard? What does it involve? Expectation, judgment? What does it create, resentment?

And you know the book I would raise my children over with? Only one...Between Parent and Child...changed me as an adult.

Okay, so you caught yourself, Mr. Fancy Pants, and already saw all that I posted. Was this a trap? LOL Didn't see where you caught your focus consumed where it has no control, though. Neener.

"cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids"

An idea for you...to change these from the perspective of chores, to the perspective of worship...each act...cooking...cleaning...caring for the kids...lifted up as an act of prayer. Would that help your center? Privileges instead of must-do's (and hey, what's with all the have to's in your post?)...being present in your own action doing them, celebrating you are there with the ability to do them at all, not in a bachelor studio apartment, missing your family like a hole in the center of your soul.

You know you can bash back, right?

I can take it.

Bring it on.

You're going through WS's withdrawal...which is the most resentment making time there is...who are they to mourn a fantasy? Gosh, been there, felt that...it is us denying reality as much as they were...are...and you want to be worked for, don't you? This is their work...this is the rough road back...and you want them back. You just want the pain to stop. Know this. You are centered with truth, not emotions.

(I'm so glad you post...more! More!)

LA

Update, please...

LA

LA - I've been lurking and not posting. Not thinking too much about recovery. Or anything really. No discussion to date of A. I haven't done anything with it. Have not researched MCs. Stalled out...

BTW - NC since 6/9. OM has made a few feeble attempts. All very off-putting to W as she has told me.

How is your RC time with your W? Those 15 hours of UA?

Inquiring minds just MUST know.

You sound down and numb to me. Then again, I have to guess, uhm, don't I?

Financially, has she gotten another job? How are your stress levels?

Can you open your mouth and say "Ahhhhhh Ha!" for me?

LA

LA- We're not getting 15 hours. Though we are spending time together alone on weekends that we didn't spend together before.

I'm a little down and numb. I know that we've got to be doing more than we are. I really don't know where to start. I fear that she's going to push back on reading any books or going to counseling. I asked her to fill out the EN questionairre and it hasn't happened yet. Another fear is that she's going to make this difficult. Drag her feet. I have not been sharing ANYthing with her really. I'm withdrawing from a PoRH perspective. Not being "super-R-man" anymore. If that makes sense.

Is she wrapping up withdrawl? NC started 6/9. He's broken thru with some phone calls and email... Haven't changed her cell phone number for a second time. She told me we could change it if I wanted to. Well, I want her to want to. AND I want her to do it.

I got very angry tonight. I was paying one of her traffic tickets that could have been handled with defensive driving school but she's couldn't follow through on signing up for it because her life was "too crazy" at the time. All I could think was that her "crazy" life could accomodate a clandestine, illicit, immoral relationship but not a phone call to defensive driving.

Now I can't look at her.

And how. It got to the point where I could not see the person that she was.



Involves expectation and judgement. Creates anger, frustration and resentment.



What do you mean?



I'm there already. I used to hate this stuff. Thought I was above it. I relish it now in a zen kind of way. I like taking care of my family. Things have slown down for me a lot in that way. Some of the peace that I found through this has stuck with me.




Not so much that I want to be worked for but that I want the M to be worked for...

Thanks for caring, LA.

MDC,

I've been thinking about both of your posts...

"Another fear is that she's going to make this difficult. Drag her feet. I have not been sharing ANYthing with her really."

Doesn't sound like a present fear...sounds like one you've been anticipating for awhile...would that feed your powerless feeling, your numbness...your helplessness?

Your WW stopped her affair. Withdrawal looks like dragging feet...having your WW in an A--that's extremely difficult...in withdrawal, no contact, well that is difficult.

You have not had an affair, nor been in withdrawal...you haven't had to deal with whatever your WW is dealing with...holding her to your standards now is a dangerous choice...

Not speaking your truth is a degrading choice...why make it? Tell me what closes your mouth, shields your heart? What did you do that was so terrible you can't speak of it?

Your focus seems to be again consumed by her...her actions, thoughts, effort, lack of effort, commitment, lack of commitment...sucked into what you cannot control...nor can you know, until you are as honest as you want her to be with you.

You're worth honesty, openness, sharing...being worked for, chosen. You know this. You are valuable. Speak, MDC. Recommit to this marriage, again...your habit of expectations seems to be a tasty poison...put them down for now...for another month. Live like you thrive, for today, just you...present, aware, respectful...feed your peace, your joy...listen and repeat...

When she said "we could change it if you wanted to" (the cell number again), why not say, "Yes, I very much would like you to change it. Thank you."

Do not pay her traffic tickets...she writes the check, faces the consequence, mails it...

Tasty poison you've got there.

Can you acknowledge your limits? Can you still take care of yourself? "I cannot do that for you, WW. I don't think of your affair as a crazy time. I think of it as a careless time. I am triggering badly right now. My sorrow is choking me. I will not do what I will resent you for anymore."

And walk away.

Don't go numb and mute. Speak, MDC. Please value yourself and stop betraying yourself.

How long is withdrawal? My H's A lasted three months...and two months of withdrawal...I don't know the formula...

I know you were wishing with all your might for your W to come back to you...she's on her way...it was a longer road than you can imagine to get wayward...full of lies, self-deceipt and justification...they smoothed that road...resentment gave energy to the trip...think of that road back without those...

And mind your own road...so you can meet her, if you choose...and save your marriage.

(((((MDC)))))

LA

thanks la

Mr. W -

Need your legal expertise on this one. OM has been contacting us every 2 weeks since 6/9 - the date of WW's NC letter - via WW's cell phone (just changed the number AGAIN) email, and home phone. Every 2 weeks on the dot he reaches out.

I sent him a note letting him know that all contact since 6/9 has been harrassment and any further contact would result in an anti-harrassment restraining order being filed against him.

Sure enough the psycho wrote me back right away to tell me that his work knew about WW and he and that he and his job have filed something against me with respect to my stating that I wanted to "shoot OM in the head" when I was speaking with his XW about 3 months ago.

I may or may not have said this, I honestly don't remember.

My gut tells me the man is bluffing. I've copied the email below. Do you see any obvious holes?

BTW - I think I'm going to go ahead and file the restraining order.

"LOL. MDC. Please understand that my work was notified completely about my situation with WW and the threats you made to me about taking me and shooting me in the head. They have requested XW to sign an affidavid (sp?) and appear in court. She has agreed.

Therefore the process has already started against you from Workplace and myself. I feel you are a threat and will not tollerate it. I know you lied to WW that u said this, but I guess XW being willing to go to court for the exhusband that cheated on her shows it is true. And I will not be threatened by your instability.

Until I hear from WWs mouth that I should not contact her I will consider her your prisoner. And I and her friends have agreed to tell the authorities. Do not email to my work, for your own good, as they are now filtering for yours and WWs emails."

Do not be threatened by this snake. If you told him you were going to do something, DO IT. This is all bullies understand, nothing else. If you did say it you said it under extremse stress and duress at this snake having cheated with your wife. People say things all the time they don't mean literally, just read the paper. If you have no history of violence, record, etc this should prove your stability to this traumatic point in your life.

I have made myself a vow throughout my ordeal. If I tell STBXW and or OM something, by God, I MEAN IT! I will complete whatever I told them I was going to do otherwise they think you are bluffing and will call you on it every time. Don't tell WW or OM anything you don't mean (legally of course and short of physical violence).

THANK YOU H&P. This is what I needed to hear.

I sent the harrasment note this morning and he wrote me back with this bile. True to my word I will file a restraining order as I said I would.

Thanks again. This is all SUCH a bunch of garbage.

Anybody know what city I file the RO in? The city we live in or the city OM lives in? Also I don't have his address - I think he's still staying with a friend after his XW threw him out. Can I use his work address for the RO?

Thanks

You need to show the e-mail to your FWW and ask her to please send him the NC letter with a statement that, if he contacts her or you, again, she will consider it harassment and file charges against him. Let her see what a "gem" this joker is.

BTW, the best he and his company are going to get is a RO and a no trespass order - you will have the opportunity to appear in court to defend yourself. It is at that point you will want to take a record of all his calls to you to demonstrate he is the one maintaining contact, not you. You will also want to take a copy of the e-mail you sent him and the one he sent you in response. I am not aware of any type of lawsuit he could file against you except, perhaps, defamation for telling his work about him having an affair and truth is a defense.

Regards,

BB

MDC

I don't know what state you are in but see the link below for Arizona that I would bet is similar in nature to other states. It may very well be called an Order of Protection vs. a restraining order in your case.

http://www.cityofmesa.org/court/protection.asp

Thanks BB. I did not tell his work about anything. The only person I spoke to in his world regarding the A was his XW. And she knew before I called her. I gave her details she didn't have.

I've forwarded the emails to my FWW and asked her to participate in the RO.

FWW already sent a NC letter. At this point I'd rather just file the RO since I said I would upon further contact. A note to OM from FWW will only produce more of the same. Unless the object is to prod him to respond & gather more evidence against him...

HNC - I'm in Phoenix metro. Thanks for the link. I would probably file in Tempe where he works.

HopeandPray is dead on.

Don't allow bullies to push you around. If you said anything like that you can always recharacterize it as "maybe I said somebody should put a bullet in OM's head...not that "I" intended or threatened to do it...OM is and always has been in the Lord's hands, HE shall be my redeemer".

OM's don't take people to court to get restraining orders. OM's are cockroaches that can't stand the light of day. Do you think any judge is going to take OM seriously. Besides, let him get a restraining order, then you file a petition for a reciprocal one. You don't want to have contact with him ANYWAY.

Additionally, perhaps your silence on the email could be inferred as accepting the facts as stated (i.e.- you threatened him). This may not be advisable as it just escalates and further adds to the drama; however, perhaps you should send his XW and boss email and dispute the facts he stated therein.


Probably over the top and unnecessary. I don't know as I am unfamiliar with your entire situation. Go ahead and file YOUR restraining petition. Don't sweat his threats as I think you can handle leaving him alone as you'd love nothing more than to be done with him.

Mr. Wondering

By gosh, Mr. W, perhaps we should open a practice together!!! LOVE the e-mail Mr. W proposes and would strongly urge you to consider the following in this exact order:

1) File for RO;
2) Have WW send another NC letter that plainly states, "OM, LEAVE ME AND MY FAMILY ALONE. DO NOT CALL, DO NOT WRITE AND STAY AWAY FROM US. I am not my husband's 'prisoner.' I am here because I choose to be here and not with you. GO AWAY.
3) Send Mr. W's proposed e-mail to XW and Bosses, w/ copy to OM.

Regards,

BB

Mr. W - thanks for the response. I like your letter. I'll take it step by step. First I'll file the injunction againist harrassment. I am seriously concerned that he knows where we live and FWW is home alone w/kids all day.

Good plan BB. Thanks

FWW just filled out the injunction against harrasment and she's upset that she may have to face him in court if he requests a hearing. Says she doesn't want to see him ever again.

Should I put myself as the plaintiff and add her to the order to spare her having to see him in court?

It was probably difficult for her to fill out the injunction since that's a pretty long way from where the two of them were 3 months ago.

mmmmm,

You've sent several no contact letters and OM keeps popping up and threatening you with lawsuits. He thinks you've locked away your wife and are keeping her hostage.

Usually I'd say do it yourself and let WW/FWW stick to no contact; however, this is one case I believe your wife must sign and appear so OM gets the point. She may be able to avoid testifying completely. Maybe she can sign an affidavit or something. Just say she had to work that day and you are appearing on the behalf of you both. You have enought first hand evidence to get the order anyway. But your wife must sign the paperwork...and fill out an affadavit (in her hand writting so OM won't think you just forced her to sign it).

If she must personally appear and see him you two should discuss a plan TOGETHER on how to handle the likely scenario's you'll face. Team up and brainstorm. OM must get the point your wife is NOT interested and he is irrelevant.

OM stupidly wants closure so give it to him so HE gets out of your lives once and for all.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks Mr. W.

Should I call OMXW? I don't have her email or physical address. I know her old address so I supposed I could forward a letter. I would call her and ask her if she knows what OM is up to with the contact, etc. Maybe she is making a statement against me. Can't imagine why...

Anyway if there is legal action underway against me would it be a bad idea to call OMXW?

Thanks

MDC,

I'm reading and following...you know I'm legaless...just good at making up words...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MrW? Is there a chance there is no legal action brewing...just more fantasy crud from a fantasy-trapped man?

That would be OM...NOT MDC...

LA

thanks for following LA.

I'm at the courthouse now waiting to see a judge. FWW would not put herself as plaintiff because she doesn't want to see him again. I said I'd go talk to a judge to see if it made more sense for her to file and if so would she have to appear in the same room with him.

I'm furious right now. I called to ask her what his bday was for the paperwork and she said didn't know. I pointed out that she sent him a GIFT on his bday so she SHOULD know.

Anyway.

She's dodging, IMO, MDC...

She's rattled...this is real...this is a direct consequence of her own choices and actions...

She may not want to see him...she would choose to do so to protect her marriage and her husband...necessary. And this filing doesn't necessitate her seeing him, does it? He might not appear, which will be when?

Could this be why her not remembering his bday triggered you? Not facing up to the consequences?

If you were less stressed right now, you would see her not remembering--NOT CARING--as a good thing...not a SHOULD thing...watch your own intent, MDC...and I'm not saying you're wrong to feel as you do...you've got some overlap, I think, in what you're doing and what you're believing...

All tough stuff...accountability builds character...we build our own by asking for it...and following through.

In your corner,

LA

You are right this is very real. I know she's dodging. This is a healthy exercise to bring her back into reality.

He can contest. If he does it will go to hearing.

MDC,

Do you remember choosing to inject respect was getting out of the way of what wasn't yours?

Get out of the way now. Leave the courthouse. Tell your wife you have full faith in her to sign on as plantiff, to deal with this, because you believe in her and your marriage.

Tell her you will be the co-plantiff (you can do that, I think)...and that your marriage is the second plantiff (man, are you seeing just how legal-less I really am?)...

She can't dodge consequences...you can buffer them. Take over. Block. All of your choices matter.

Withdrawal is a hard time, MDC...as you're experiencing...and from seeing your enthusiasim before, I think you like to take action...cure...stop pain...harrassment...and in withdrawal, staying present is a potent action...and limited.

I believe your WW is on the verge of earning her F...and that's priceless...please think this through...you may have to use all your willpower to restrain your deep desire to fix or protect...and get out of the way. That's action. That's part of the hero's journey.

This is the second time...you got in the way the first...please, MDC...stay in reality, calm and respectful...and know she can do this...she is fully capable.

(((MDC))))

LA

LA - I say this undefinsively. When did I get in the way the first time?

So if I get out of WWs way on this and she does nothing, then what? She would never have signed onto this on her own. And that's not a DJ. She would NOT have volunteered to go on the front end of a RO until something bad happened. And maybe not even then. So if WW will not protect us then who will? Right. Me. Just like I have been protecting us.

I see exactly what you mean. Once I appeared before the judge it became crystal clear how much more meaning this would have to me and OM if WW was plaintiff. Would be more meaningful to the court too since 90% of the harassing contact was directed at her and not me. I feel there's a chance that the RO could be quashed if he contests. Feel that there is NO chance it could be quashed if WW was plaintiff. I can't use any contact that was directed at her with me as plaintiff. I told her as much. Did not ask her to do anything. Just spelled out how much more meaningful it was for her to be on the front end.

I was grumbling to myself on the way to the car about how ONCE again I'm doing something to make it easier on HER. I'm doing this because SHE doesn't want to face him. It feels like I do a lot of this in our M. Accommodate for her.

She would think differently. Since she sees the RO as unnecessary, an act that will only make more trouble. So if she were listed as plaintiff she would martyr herself as having had to do something for me. And when the court day came and seeing him and hearing him was terrible for her, she would be angry at ME. I understand this is not guaranteed behavior on her part and I'm making assumptions but this is the PATTERN. Do you see??

The RO has been granted for 1 year. It's effective once it's been served. I have to hire a process server to deliver it. Once delivered he can contest it in writing at any time during the 1 year period. Once contested the court will set a date within 10 days. He and I will appear in court where he can cross-examine me about the claims. I fully expect him to contest.

OM's attorney: Why is your wife not here with you supporting you?

MDC: Because OM is irrelevant to her. I am the spiritual leader of my family and it's protector. She is not here because we have decided as a family that she need not have any contact with OM as he is insignificant in our lives. Because he has continually and persistently refused to accept NO CONTACT REQUEST I am here defending my family from his wicked attempts to interfere and reignite his relevance in our lives.

OM's A: Did you threaten to kill OM?

MDC: No

OM's A: We have supporting testimony and affidavit's that you did threaten to kill OM...Are you sure you wouldn't like to change your answer???

MDC: When I found out he was having an illicit affair with my wife I might have said "I wished him dead" or something to that effect. My wish versus what he actually did to harm me, my kids and my wife is not even comparable. If he wants a reciprocal restraining order I'll stipulate to such right here and now....as long as he honors my families request to NO CONTACT with us whatsoever.


I believe OM's Attorney MAY be able to call your wife as a witness and demand her presence. Your attorney can object and might win such objection. If not, your attorney can likely file a motion that such testimony be taken ex parte (out of court, perhaps by video, affidavit or in the judge's chambers) based upon your wife's desire not to see him. I believe most judges will honor such request based upon the circumstances.

A problem I foresee. Maybe the judge, in fact, orders reciprocal restraining orders but such restraining order does not include your entire family. OM can attempt to contact your wife freely and YOU would be restrained from responding to him personally. Your wife would have to then respond (or preferably, perhaps, ignore him).

Personally I wish your wife would sign on and testify. Stand before the court and end this in person to his face. It may be contact but it would sure put a stop to his nonsense.

Mr. Wondering

Good stuff Mr. W.

The judge I saw today granted an injunction against harrassment which is the best I could hope for in this case. It takes effect when it gets served. I have expressed to W how much more effective having her as plaintiff would be. With respect to our injunction against him, my gut tells me that since the evidence of his harrassment to W since 6/9 is SO overwhelming the injunction could not be quashed. On paper, his harrassment of me looks pretty thin - a single phone call and 4 emails...

With respect to his claims against me, would they not be irrelevant in a hearing that's concernend with an injunction against him?

Worse case scenario what kind of action could he take against me for this supposed threat I made? It would ONLY be a restraining order - which is civil. No grounds for criminal charges are there?

I'm not going to get a lawyer for this. I can't afford it for one... I heard that some companies cover legal expenses in some cases for their employees. I wonder if that's what's going on with OM.

This is all so damn ridiculous.

Did you make a direct threat to om? If you said it to somebody else I believe that would just be hearsay.

Take care
Scott

It would NOT be hearsay if the person MDC supposedly said it to appeared in court to offer a first hand account of the conversation. OM couldn't testify to what his XW said that MDC said to his XW. That WOULD be hearsay.

I don't believe his XW WOULD show up and testify against you so willingly. Besides anything you did say would be completely justifiable to any person in the court room. No criminal charges are available to OM as it is a free country and you can SAY you want to put a bullet in anyone's head if you wish. It's the actions backing up the words which become potentially prosecutable.

Remember, any such threat pales in comparison to the ACTIONS he ACTUALLY DID to assist in the destruction of your family. HE actually murdered your heart and no judge or jury will likely ever sympathize with his plight.

Don't allow his shenanigans to stir up hatred in your heart. OM's irrelevance to your family must also include you. Fight OM with honor and the truth in court if you must and don't allow his demons tempt you into hatred. Resist the urge to allow thoughts of him consume you...NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES. If you ever have to confront him in court look upon his lost soul with disinterest at the least and if you can muster it, empathy. Hatred is just to much power to give him. REMEMBER THESE WORDS, OM becoming irrelevant to the BH is often the last hurdle to this sordid mess. You may not be ready to release it today or soon, but recognize it as YOUR challenge.

Mr. Wondering

Did not make a direct threat to OM. I was talking to his wife. He's been harping on this "shoot him in the head" thing since 5/3. I didn't make any threats on his life while talking to her.

Mr. W. Thank you. Until Monday when he made claims about legal action against me, what you describe is EXACTLY what I felt about OM. Pity. Indifference. He really was irrelevant. I had little if any hate for him. NOW - since Monday - I DO find myself consumed. And find myself hating. I know it's not good. The name calling, blaming, etc. I can handle. This is a whole new level that I'm going to have to adjust to.

You are 100% absolutely right.

BTW a criminal charge can be made from a threat. Based on what I've read, threatening speach is not protected.



Based on the above it does appear that (true to your comments) context is HUGELY important. I WILL face OM with honor, truth and courage. And NOT give myself to the hate that is so ready to consume me.

OW got me for communicating a threat, she wasn't credible and they just dropped it and it didn't go on my record.

I did call om's work and say I would shoot him if I caught him and my wife together,
actually I told them I was crazy and might do anything but their company vehicle would
be alll over 6 oclock news so I wanted to warn them. They didn't do anything either.
If they do file charges an attorney can get you right out of it esp since he had an a with your wife.

Take care
Scott

Wow, OH. If you were ok them I'm going to be fine. Thanks for sharing.

Think of how ridiculous OM will sound trying to go to the police and later, on the witness stand trying to ACT like he was so "immediately" fearful of you and your "imminent" threat and that he "reasonably" feared for his life IN CONTRAST WITH THE FACT he then proceeded to continually harass, interact and make contact with you and your wife.

If he was so scared why would he risk such?????

My brother is a prosecutor...they are NOT readily willing to involve themselves in domestic affairs. They must take his claim and perhaps give it a cursory investigation and then shelf it.

If you get questioned calmly and with slight bemusement explain your side of the story and vehemently deny any such threat. Question any investigator with the above fact..."if he was scared of me why would he continual call, email and try to personally involve himeself in our lives?????....This claim is just more of the same. We just want him out of our lives forever...can YOU make that happen and tell this Bozo to leave us alone?"

If the conversation continues, again point out that YOU are his victim and this bogus claim is merely a ruse in response to your filing a restraining protective order against him (Case number XX-343242 gc in the 32nd District Court).

That will very likely be the end of any such investigation.

Be sympathetic to any investigator just doing his/her job and thank him/her for their attention to this matter. Advise him that you hope this matter can be resolved without charges being filed against you...you just want this over. However, you should request that in the event they do intend to proceed that the investigator provide you with a courtesy head's up so you can proceed retain an attorney and file reciprocal charges against him for similiar threats, extortion (cause he threatened repeatedly to bring you up on criminal charges if you didn't do what he said), Assualt & battery (upon your wife), and any other charge you and your attorney can think of...if you don't proceed then I don't want to waste your time with MY REAL claims. You see, that's what the investigators don't want...more paperwork and more frivolous claims to investigate when it's all just a domestic dispute and irrelevant to them anyway.

Mr. Wondering

MDC,

Looking for the benefits...God's touch...right now...in this...

You found out others here truly have your back...MrW, especially. You found out facts to fight your fear assumptions...the places you went in your head...you asked for and were given what you needed, when you needed it...God's promise fulfilled in your life. On record. Validated with an RO. Documented and taken seriously...

These help with making your pain of betrayal real and you, less helpless? If you had moments of feeling crazy for what you felt...for finding out at MB how often, how saddening all this was...how deeply you are and were affected...does this validation realign you?

I wasn't taking that away from you...your intent is pure, MDC...without a doubt in my mind...and God is aiding you, fully, by your intent...your actions do not have to be perfect, nor do what you believe they will...please believe in yourself and God's faith in YOU...

Now, sharing all that is in you...knowing you don't have to be perfect...just perfectly human. Will you probe that rage tooth and find out if focusing on OM's audacity and grandiosity helped ease something in you...which was aimed toward your FWW? Maybe something that clogged your throat, your truth...numbed, even?

You are worth your highest honesty...your deepest truth. So is your marriage. Please keep posting...and speaking it.

LA

Mr. W - thanks for pointing out the forest. I'm allowing myself to get eaten up & losing objectivity in the process.

LA - wow. Your post had a big effect on me. Thank YOU for pointing out the benefit. I DO feel better for having been validated by the judge. And for taking action on MY behalf if not my family's.

I think this rage might be a passing wave of emotion. I know these waves well. They are intense and then...gone. MBers have helped me get through all of them since I started posting on 4/14.

This too shall pass.

See, sometimes, I do good, eh?

:::preening:::

Yer welcome, MDC.

LA

LA - you're the best.

Nah, I'm equal to ya, though...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How are you today?

LA

Hi MDC,

I just saw your call out to me. I've been trying to stay away from reading other posts on this site b/c it gets me depressed, so I'm not sure when you wrote this.

I don't know your sitch at all, I kind of skimmed over your last couple posts. What specifically did you want to ask me? I will try to help.

I am a court reporter so I'm not too famililar with all the law, but I do sit in on a lot of Protection from Abuse cases (I believe this is the equivalent to your RO). Also, you have to tell me what state you're from b/c every state is different. First let me ask you....is this in front of a judge at the courthouse or a district judge (justice of the peace) at his office?

I hope I will be able to answer some of your questions. I can always ask one of my lawyer friends, too, if you have a specific question I can't answer.

--Sarah

CO - thanks for heeding the call. Sorry - when I wrote "co" I meant "company". Mr Wondering and Company.

I think I've got it figured out. Injunction against harrassment has been issued by the judge. Contacting a process server today.

LA - I'm going to move this over to recovery.

MDC,

Oh, don't I feel stupid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />! I guess I will go back on the "I am not stupid" thread and withdraw my name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!

Well, good luck to you! I hope it all works out.

--Sarah

No worries, CO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the well wishes.

Injunction against harrassment served to OM on Tuesday this week. Just received an affdavit confirming. Glad to have some formal protection in place against this wacko.

good job,

Be prepared for some resistence. OM's don't like to be told what to do. He likely has false pride and will try to do something within a perceived gray area of the law.

Phones ringing all hours of night but no one is there. Answer them and then hang up so just maybe the call will register on HIS phone bill or with the phone company. Take the phone off the hook thereafter.

He may try to just "accidentally" bump into you or your wife in public or your workplace. Be observant of those following you. Stop suddenly for a pitstop. Circle the block. Have your cell phone camera at the ready at all times with date and signature stamp set to the correct time/date. If you have a recorder, keep it handy for when you answer the phone or out in public.

He may try to make some claim YOU stalked him and said something upon which HE can file a claim of harrasment or restraining order versus you. If you have a recording proving that at the time specified you did NOT say such...you win.

Be prepared. Forewarned is being forearmed.

Mr. Wondering

MDC and your support group,

I am glad to read of the positive, swift and legal action being taken in your defense.

There has been a lot of time spent on another thread that has a lot of other MBers all riled up. But I am glad to see support is being given to you here by some great peoples. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

All the best in this legal quest. Will be watching more closely. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Thanks Mr. W for the heads up.

Orchid thanks for the support.

Bumping for MDC...wondering about you.

Maybe the Wonderings are wondering, too? They might...they ARE a wonder...and wonderful.

(I"m baiting MrsW with puns.)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

LA...you are one Master Baiter

You hooked in Mr. W with your buns, I mean Puns.

Hope all is well MDC

Mr. W

Giving this another kick up because MrW cast one waaaay out there.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

MDC? You 'round? Or square?

LA

Miss ya, MDC...updates welcome.

LA

Thinking of you and hoping to get a holiday connection...an update...a hello...

LA