About a month and a half ago, my wife left me. We had an argument that morning. I was angry that she hadn't gotten out of bed yet. I had to go to work and she needed to get up so she could take care of our 15 month old son. She got upset with me because, and I admit to this, I was rather mean to her about the whole thing. Anyway, when I arrived home for lunch, she had all of her stuff packed up. I confronted her about this and she told me she was leaving, because it was clear to her that "we weren't good for each other." I stayed home for the rest of the day and the day after, even though she offered to stay so she could watch our son until her parents could come pick him up for a few days. I told her that if she was going to just leave, and for such a silly reason (in my opinion), that she should just leave. We argued some more, she stated how she hadn't been in love with me for quite some time, and that the "spark" just wasn't there anymore. We had been arguing quite badly for months, by this point, and she just decided, out of the blue (though now I'm sure she had help in coming to this decision), that she needed to get out of a "bad situation." So she left.

My D-Day was 4 days later, on a Friday. I had been fine that entire week, feeling as if this were just a minor setback that would eventually be fixed, once we had some time apart and were able to discuss things. Anyway, her computer was broken, and I told her I'd fix it. I snooped around. I admit it. I've had gut feelings about her infidelity for quite a long time, I just always gave her trust and the benefit of the doubt. I shouldn't have. I found a chat log on her computer. She was discussing with him what they'd do next time she went to visit him. I confronted her, and found out that this guy wasn't the only guy she'd had an affair with.. over the entire past year. She had even had sex with one of my best friends (he had just gotten out of prison - he felt incredibly guilty about this and still apologizes to me over and over again) THE NIGHT BEFORE SHE MOVED OUT - that was the reason she was so tired that morning and wouldn't get out of bed. Anyway, there were many men in her past year and even a couple of women & threesomes. It all came out, because I wouldn't let her hide anything from me. She told me that she lied to me about the affairs in order to "protect" me.

Our marriage, you see, had been rough for some time. Ever since about the time our son was born (March of 2005), she'd been distant and withdrawn, addicted to an internet game and always talking to her internet friends, to the exclusion of almost everything else. Her sleep patterns changed drastically - she never was asleep at night - I was always in bed alone. I had found out that she was heavily flirting with a guy online (if you call phonesex flirting), back in September of last year. When I confronted her about that, that was the first time she told me she wasn't in love with me anymore. She also started saying that she wasn't really interested in sex at all anymore, once her sexual appetite seemed to totally vanish.

For a week in November, she vanished to Florida, saying she needed a chance to "spread her wings and fly free" to focus and find her love for me again. It didn't seem to work. Things just got worse, our arguments just got worse. It was at a large convention in February that she started her longest-running affair, though I don't think it was her first. Ultimately, though, I didn't know about any of it until after she left.

She's been gone for a month and a half. She hasn't been able to keep a job for more than 2 weeks in over a year. She's already slept with at least 4 other people, she's started doing drugs, and she's even told me that she's interested in another guy, one who lives in Minneapolis (hundreds of miles away from where we live now - one of her internet friends). He spent over $500 on her when she went to visit him a couple weeks ago, and has offered to give her more money to visit him again. I think she's using him, maybe unconciously, and she thinks it's love, but ultimately I'm afraid she's going to get herself hurt, or worse.

She says it's definitely over. There is no remorse or regret in her voice, though she tells me that she has expressed such to her close friends. She tells me that she doesn't want me back, that she doesn't want to be with me. She says she's happy (with no money, a car that's falling apart, no job, and without her son... I don't know how) how she is now.

Should I just give up?

Do you have your son with you?

Rogue, given the situation as you describe it, the only real answer would seem to be "yes."

Document everything. Transfer all assests out of a joint account and into your own account. Contact and attorney and prepare for a divorce "for cause" and to fight for sole custody of your child.

It is time for the "safety net" to be removed. If there is to be any chance of recovering your marriage, she is going to have face the reality of her choices. But I am not hopeful from the scenario you painted of her actions, both in adultery and in drug usage. Beyond that will the question only you can answer, even if she wanted back in the marriage, would you want her without solid proof of a total transformation?

As of for your friends, "friends" don't "do" their friends wives. Get a new set of friends, as hard as that might seem to do right now. Think of yourself and your child.

God bless.

I do have my son. She does not. I don't want her to have him, either, because she's not healthy for him. At least, not as she is now.

Right now, I don't want her back. Not really. But at the same time, I still love her, and I don't want to give up on her. I gave her a promise. The year before we got married was amazing, and the two years leading up to our son's birth was even better. I know it could be that way again. Something is just wrong with her. But yes, I couldn't take her back without solid proof that she had changed.

I just don't like to give up on anything. I don't like to break promises. I don't like to feel like I'm failing my son in some way by not being able to save the family. And I am scared. I haven't been alone for 6 years. I don't know how to start over.

I just don't know what to do.

As for the friend, though, he was lied to and manipulated by her. He was made to believe that I knew what was going on and didn't care. She has spun a web of lies to everyone she knows, and that's how she's managed to cheat so much. I don't fault him for it - she's a very sexy young woman, she's always been awesome in bed, and he had been in jail for 3 years and had just gotten out. I am mad that he did it, but I forgive him for it.

Thank you for the advice. I suppose I will finish filling out the divorce paperwork, even though every letter I write hurts me.

*sigh*

I'm so lost. Today I feel so empty. I wish this wasn't happening. Why does this have to happen?

Wow, not only do I feel lost and alone in the real world, I get the cold shoulder online too... in a place where there was supposed to be support.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

TRX,

I think the drug issue sometimes scares a few posters away. It's easier to deal with infidelity when drugs are not in play.

My H had an affair when he was addicted to alcohol & meth. He slept with a co-worker when he was "high".

The change in her sleep patterns and disinterest in family is a huge red flag to an addiction. It's hard to deal with the cheating until the addiction is addressed.

Does her family know? If not, they need to know. Any way you can get her help for her drug problem? That's where you need to start. Some kind of intervention, maybe.

Tatertot

Not every thread garners a lot of attention. I haven't been around long enough to tell you what makes for the seed of a good thread and what doesn't. I can tell you that people might be getting ready for the holiday weekend and might not even be looking at MB right now.

There is also a longtime resident of MB who is a FWW who had renewed contact with her OM. That thread seems to be absorbing a lot of the experienced peoples' attention and energy.

I don't want to presume to speak for other posters, but they may very well think that the advice that FH gave you above, and what I told you on your original thread, is pretty much all there is to say.

You are not failing your son. You are standing up for him - and for yourself. You are showing him that being a man means more than being able to fix your car or grill a good burger. It also means that you take swift, decisive action to respond to a dangerous situation. Right now he's too young to understand - but he will someday, and he will appreciate you for it.

And this is a dangerous situation. Your WW could suck your bank account dry. She could run up your charge cards. She could get pregnant, and in many states YOU could get stuck with support. She could come home mouthing words of reconciliation, all the while whacked out on drugs and shagging your friends. Is this a woman you would want caring for your son? Is this a woman you want more children with?

You're doing the right things to protect your son and yourself. Stay strong and keep posting to let us know how you're doing. I strongly recommend you get counseling and spend as much time with your family this weekend as you can.

TT's point about drug use made me think.

Assume that a drug-addicted alien has hijacked your wife's purse, identity, and brain - keys, wallet, charge cards, bank accounts, everything, passwords - and act accordingly. Remember that this alien wants drugs and has no money.

Change the locks on your house/apartment and on your cars.

Close any joint accounts and reopen them in your name only. Destroy any existing checkbooks.

Declare any joint charge cards as stolen. Have new numbers issued and get the accounts in your name only.

Change passwords on any web access you have to your bank accounts, 401k, investments, health plans, and so on.

Put all of her stuff in boxes in the garage. That way if she does come to the house wanting something of hers, you don't have to turn her loose in the house looking for it (and pocketing whatever else she wants).

Look, I don't like to break promises either. To me, my word is my life. But your wife is a grown-up, and can make her own choices and can take care of herself. You can't help her until she is ready to be helped and will allow you to help her. I had a live-in GF who was a druggie. It took me almost a year to realize that she had to be willing to accept help before I could do anything for her.

Take care of your son. You made a promise to him, too.

Well, I've tried to get away from this site, but have had a few friends here ask me to come back and look at this thread.

Your situation sounds very familiar...my wife also got addicted to online gaming (Everquest) which eventually led to an online/phone emotional affair. The only reason it didn't lead to a PA (physical affair) was because I found out about it before they expected me to.

The change in sleeping habits and lack of interest in the family aren't indicators of drug addiction...they're indicators of her online gaming addiction. I saw the exact same thing in my FWW.

I'm going to be very blunt...she's had MULTIPLE affairs on you. She's been caught AGAIN, and shows no remorse or any kind of desire to change. She's engaged in EXTREMELY dangerous behavior (drugs, etc...).

And you've noted that things have nearly always been difficult in your marriage.

These don't sound like mistakes...or bad judgment. This sounds like this has always been her personality.

I don't have any good advice on how to save your marriage. You have to realize that you can't change her...no matter how much you want to.

At this point, I'd have to say it's time to save your son, and yourself.

Start by completely removing yourself and your son from her environment. Do whatever it takes to protect him from her horrible behavior. Work on doing things for him and yourself. Identify the areas that YOU can improve in your life and yourself...and work on those. Make yourself a better person...for YOU.

It's POSSIBLE...VERY UNLIKELY...but possible she'll see you becoming the kind of man she's admired and wanted, and decide to do what she has to in order to have you and DS in her life. But that's not your goal...your goal should be to take care of your DS and improve your own life.

Sorry I don't have any better advice.

What Bit said.

I lived throught the nightmare of being married to an addict. Having sex with some nasty chick who looked like Larry the Cable Guy was only a small part in the craziness going on. He drained our bank accounts. He sold posessions that his father gave him. He neglected his children. Bills piled up. Our water was turned off. He didn't care. I took away all access to our bank accounts and locked him out of the house until he entered a 30-day rehab.

Get going...for you and your son.

Tatertot

I am sorry you feel alone but in reality that is how a BS feels while in shock. You need to move forward. Can you? Will you?

This is in addition to filing your paperwork. Also expect her to come back...and for you to accept her as is. Will you?

Do you want a personal recovery plan? One that is healthy for you and your child?

L.

Thank you for the replies.. I'm sorry I acted out the way I did earlier. It wasn't intentional. I'm still very hurt by everything that's going on, and sometimes I make mistakes.

Part of it is just that.. I feel so alone. And I'm jealous of her, because she's a beautiful, social butterfly and never has to have an empty bed at night, while I've spent the past 2 weeks totally alone. She's off playing and acting like nothing ever happened, and I've had to suffer through it.

Anyway, to give an update on things, there have been letters back and forth. She's so far lost in her own fantasy world that there is no reconcilliation. She just refuses to admit to me or even to herself that she's messed up. So I'm done. I'm going to cut my losses and start taking care of what's important: My son.

I'm in the process of filing for divorce using Spousal Abandonment as the clause. I'm working on getting everything over into my name; all the bills and such. I've already changed all the locks in the house, and am working on getting her stuff put out into the garage. My checking account never had her name on it (she had a bad bank history and they wouldn't let me add her), and so I'm safe there. I'm going to fight for full custody, because I don't want my son to be in the kind of environment she lives in. Ever. He needs stability, and she can't give him that.

So, it's over and done. There will be no recovery here. I just need to set my sights on making a good life for my son, and in the future I can find someone new who will love us both and treat us both how we deserve to be treated. I just have to be optimistic... even though that can be really hard sometimes.

Anyway, her family does know. On Father's Day, she called to talk to her father and he told her never to call there again, and never to visit either. They're totally cutting ties with her and supporting me because I haven't abandoned my son. She told me that yes, she knows this, and that she doesn't care. That just proves to me that she is a manipulator of people.. she doesn't know how to treat someone unless it's using them.

Thanks again, everyone. I'll keep you all updated as I find things out. I'm expecting a nasty court case. I just hope it works out for the best. Men, after all, automatically start at the bottom of the hill.

I do have a curious question.. MANY of her behaviors fit into the symptoms list for Post-Partum Depression. Do you think it's possible that she could have suffered from/is still suffering from it? And if she is, what can I do? If she is, what SHOULD I do? Is it even worth my time, now, or is it too late?

I can tell you as a FWW, a serial cheater, that whatever she is experiencing, it isn't fulfilling or wonderful...

Depression...any kind...is our own demon to fight. There is a correlation between depression and infidelity...often depression has been or is present when WS choose to begin an affair.

I have seen other situations here where the first born is still a toddler...and the mother abandons...

Humans are complicated...no easy answers. I do know that the shock of having a baby, the incredible responsibility and reality, can be a stress factor...and stress is why we run...not that others are doing it; we are feeling it and looking to distract rather than own.

As owl suggested, work on your own stuff...where's the payoff in you believing she's out having a marvelous time while you're alone? Choosing to know what you don't know doesn't change reality...only adds to our own fantasy...

Knowing yourself well is the best you can do...for you and your marriage. I don't view your marriage as over until there's a decree. Worth your time? Worth your effort? Can you think of anything worth more?

This is the mother of your son...you will have a life long interaction because of him...finding your stuff, living in truth, knowing what you can control and what you can't, will make all the difference.

LA

She and I had a very long, drawn out argument over the weekend via email. Suddenly, on Monday, I had a realization.

Being angry, hateful, spiteful, and judgemental toward her for everything she's been doing since she left is accomplishing nothing but bringing me more pain. If I ever wanted to see our relationship saved, doing those things will only sabotage everything. I am being totally destructive in my own right.

I apologized to her for the things I've done wrong. No excuses or reasons; just admissions of my wrongs and apologies for them. I then told her that I was going to give her all the space she needed and let her do whatever she wanted to do, without being spiteful or judgemental.

It was like I had broken heavy chains surrounding my heart, and almost instantly my mood lightened. Yes, she caused this pain and caused me to suffer, however I was the reason that the pain continued. I allowed it to continue. I held on to it and wouldn't let it go.

So now I've let it go.

I admitted that, no matter how justifed I've felt in my pain, it was wrong to take it out on her constantly like I have. I also pointed her toward the MB Basic Concepts and asked her to read them so she could see that our problems are not unique to us; that in fact they are very common.

In closing, I told her that I was going to continue on with the divorce paperwork, but if she ever decided to give us another chance, after reading those concepts, I would be open to it. I told her that, anytime she needed me, or just wanted to talk to me, all she had to do is call.

Yes, it's surrendering ultimate control over the direction of this marriage, but that's okay. I've been nothing but controlling of her and of this relationship for the past year; it's time to let go. It's time I learned to be less controlling... to allow her to be an equal partner in this decision.

She hasn't yet responded to those last emails. However, she unblocked me from her MSN and re-added me as a friend on her MySpace. She also changed her relationship status on MySpace, though I'm not quite sure what she is doing with that just yet. Originally, she was married, then when things got really bad, she had Swinger on there (yeah, should have been a sign), and after she left she had put Single. Now, though, she doesn't list anything. It has me curious as to whether or not she really is considering us again.

I suppose I'll know for sure eventually. I'll just keep moving on with my life, and whatever happens, happens. No matter what happens, though, I know I can be happy.

Things are looking up.

Wow...finding your power. That's an amazing realization...and halving your pain.

Congrats and kudos and whatever else constitutes a dose of admiration...and appreciation for your post.

LA

Well, as a quick update, she put her status back to Single on her MySpace. But that doesn't bother me so much; she may still be sorta thinking about things. She should be getting back into town sometime within the next couple days. Maybe I will know something.

Anyway, why do divorce papers have to be so darn confusing?!?

My wife moved out before I really had a chance to enact a Plan A. Should I do so anyway, with her gone? Or should I just start Plan B, even though it says that one shouldn't skip Plan A?

At the present, I'm pretty much going through the steps of Plan B already. Without an attempt at Plan A, though, is it going to be pointless in the end?

How do you all think I should approach this?

You've already committed yourself to Plan D...owned your stuff and left the door open...is that correct?

Plan A would have helped you with getting to all your control issues...preparing you to live well on your own, in another relationship, or in regaining your marriage...

Acknowledging and owning those are the first brave steps...getting to why you give yourself permission, what is the premise of your life, and changes you want to make in you for you...well...those are important, as well...and I believe Plan A is where I did most of that.

I didn't do Plan B...which is NO communication except through third-parties (lawyer and mutual friend)...would you be willing to really do that?

When you're the one doing the divorce papers, I don't see any sync with having to do one plan or the other, really...you're divorcing...so if you wanted to Plan A, as you do this...you're mixing it up anyway...why not?

LA

hi, rogueX
There's been a few new posts since I wrote the following yesterday, but I'll post it anyways....

.... RX, just looking at your separation date, you're still very near the beginning of a long process, you can still count your time in weeks - that's way too soon to throw in the towel.

Quote: <"... in her own fantasy world that there is no reconcilliation. She just refuses to admit to me or even to herself that she's messed up ..." >

... No, not now, and maybe never. But you have to ignore the words. Of course she says she doesn't care, and yes she is off into a fantasy world. But the meaning of her words right now is to prove to the rest of the world that you are all wrong. It is part and parcel of justifying yourself, because the truth is too oppressive. Not oppressive to you, but oppressive to herself. i.e. she is telling herself a lie, and it is all an exercise in being extremely defensive, because she knows how wrong she is, and she knows that she is doing terrible things. She will be defensive about the people she hangs out with - no way in the world to admit to you or to her parents that they are a bunch of jerks (which they are!). The more she realizes that, the more defensive she becomes. The worst possible thing for her now is that what you say maybe right, that her parents maybe right.
One heck of a lot of things happen to a person's mind between the ages of 24 to 30 and beyond.
The process of falling into this situtation and getting out of it, is measured in years, not weeks and months.
You've got the ace in the hole (the child), she'll be coming back for him. Right now, her whole thing is to prove to the world that you cannot control her, and it's about avoiding to see, admit, or confirm any possibility that she doing something incredibly stupid. But she will be paying a heavy price for that. By all means, protect yourself and your money, and your kid - but don't close the door quite that fast.
I hope you'll keep writing to this message board for a long time yet, for yourself, and for the benefit of everyone's learning what works and what doesn't - and what miracles might yet happen if you make room for them in your life.

... and by the way, even if she puts herself down as single on a message board, she is not single, she is married, and until the divorce is final she is commiting adultery. Pretty simple. But don't just pay any attention to stuff like this. She is just trying to justify her own behaviour.

Greetings

Couple of suggestions...maybe change the title of your thread to more accurately reflect your situation. Might get more feedback.

I had Post Partum Depression--this doesn't sound like PPD.

Difficult question: Given your wife's behavior...do you know how long she has been cheating? Perhaps even before your marriage? Before your son was born?

She sounds really young, and if she's the consummate party girl, are you certain she was faithful before your son was conceived? Obviously, after 15 months, you have bonded with the boy forever, but I'm just worried that SHE might drop a bomb on you in a custody battle.

Also, what the he11 is a married woman doing with a myspace anyway? This is nothing but an invite for parties and infidelity. I think you are going to find out a lot more to this whole story before you are done.

What made you guys get married? How did you meet? Was she always a party girl?

Thanks for the responses. I will change the title of the thread soon, I just have to figure out what I want it to say.

I really don't know what my future is going to bring, nor do I pretend to know. Every day I waffle between filling out the divorce papers and just filling out Separation papers. It's a hard decision to make. She says she wants a divorce, but like others here have said, she very likely doesn't know what she really wants. Not right now. I really don't want to give up on her in the end, but I don't want to continue being hurt, either. I love her, but I know I can find someone better than the girl she's become. That is, IF she's not willing to meet me in the middle and show me she's better than this.

imanotherone: She is young. She's only going to be 25 this year. And yeah, she was a party girl when I first met her, and we went through a lot of problems early in our relationship. Then, quite suddenly, it became incredibly strong and incredibly stable, out of nowhere. We never spent time apart. I'm not afraid that my son is not mine.. I'm almost 100% certain that she wasn't cheating on me at that point, and I also know that we were TRYING to have a baby at the time he was conceived.. we were having sex every day, multiple times a day, with the express goal of getting her pregnant. The chances of him not being my son are pretty damn slim.

As for the story of us, it's pretty long:

She and I met years ago downtown. She was the fiance of one of my friends. At the time, I was a very jaded, cynical young man. I had been the 'nice guy' for a very long time, and I had been driven to the point where I thought all I wanted from women was sex. I stole her from her fiance, solely because she was hot and I wanted to sleep with her. But we bonded much more than I though we would. She told me she loved me and that she wanted to be with me. I realized, though, that she was still immature (at the time, she was only 19), and I told her that I didn't want a serious relationship with her until she had 'grown up' a bit.

That turned her into a crazy party girl. I don't know what happened.. maybe my rejection of her was responsible, and she was just doing bad things to try to get my attention. It worked, a lot, but got me to really not like her. We still had a sexual relationship, on and off again, throughout most of this. Ultimately, she would find a boyfriend and suddenly settle down. I'd see in her the woman I knew she could be and would steal her away from the guy she was with (yes, she was cheating on them when she'd go to me, each and every time - should have been a big red flag), only to freak out at the idea that I could be in love with someone that much, and that she could love me that much. Plus, I'd realize that she hadn't really grown up.. it just seemed that way.

Finally, she really DID become the woman I wanted. At least, for a time. I also realized that I DID love her, and that I DID want to be with her. So we got together more formally. We had some minor problems here and there, but overall things were great. She was faithful to me. We were very honest with one another during this time.. everything seemed to click. I eventually proposed to her; I wanted her in my life forever. She told me, that day, that she knew I was the man she was going to marry from the moment she saw me.

It was powerful. It was emotional. I loved her so much. I really did, and still do, wish I could be with her forever.

We got married via a pastor friend of ours, but we didn't have a ceremoney. It was just she and I, saying our vows together with the pastor and two of our closest friends as our witnesses. From that point, our relationship became even stronger. I know she did not stray then. I have eyes and ears that are not my own, and never once did my gut tell me that anything was wrong. Things were amazing. We were happy. We did everything together. Our sexual relationship was VERY good.. there was always a lot of passion between us. We weren't afraid of being affectionate to one another.. our Love Banks were always full to the brim. So full that, when we had disagreements over anything, they'd be short and within minutes, we'd be over them. Our passionate natures did lead to a few arguments here and there, but they'd end quickly... usually the passion would fuel make-up sex afterwards.

Really, we gave each other everything we needed. I really don't know what changed after our baby was born.

Should I move on? And If I should wait, like DMbx seems to suggest, should I just do Separation papers and hold off on the Divorce? I don't want to give up yet, unless it's absolutely required that I do.

P.S. She got a MySpace because I had one. I network with it, and actually met my coworker on it weeks before I actually started the job I have now. He found me and we got to know each other in advance.

P.P.S. Sorry for the jumbled mess that was this post. I just had a lot of thoughts to complete, heheh.

Wow. A lot for you to think about, then. Obviously, you don't want to abandon your son right now, since your WW is not thinking clearly. Will she ever become that woman you thought you were marrying? I don't have the answers.

Right now might be a good time to protect your assets, and work on YOU and SON. Harley has a lot to say about folks who are dealing with addiction, and some MB principles like Plan A and B don't work as effectively when drugs and alcohol are involved.

I think she's more addicted to the MMORPG she was playing than any drugs. Honestly, I think she just smokes a little pot once in awhile; she's not addicted to it.

However, an addiction is an addiction, and the one she has is awful. I know that, if we were to consider working things out, she'd have to cut all ties to everyone she knows online, just because I don't know how many of them she's flirted with or played around with in any way. I'm not sure if she'd be willing to do that. At least, not right now.

I'll go ahead with the Legal Separation for now. She wants Divorce, and I'm ultimately willing to go that route if it seems necessary, but I'm not ready to give in just yet.

Today is a down day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I haven't spoken to her in any form since the last email I sent her on July 2nd. She has never replied, nor has she called or otherwise tried to contact me.

This is good, because it gives me my chance to relax and heal away from her, but it's bad because as I learn to let go of the anger and bitterness, I begin to miss her. I mean, I don't miss the arguments, the lying, or the affairs... but I miss our happy times. Like when we would cuddle on the couch for hours and watch movies together. Or when we'd just go out on a drive together, to the middle of nowhere, and watch the sky as we held each other.

I miss the good times. They really were good, for a time. I want those times back.

I'm sad today. I hope that getting to see my son tonight will make me happy again.

It's been a week since she last wrote me. I keep wanting to send her a message asking how she's doing. I keep finding myself missing her. I don't know where she at all... she could still be out of state, she could be at her apartment now... I have no way of knowing.

How can I get beyond this? I know it's only been 2 months, but I seriously don't want to feel like this anymore. I want to be able to be happy again.

NEW INFO: A friend of ours stopped by, gave me some new information about WW and the way she's been living her life since she left... it makes me sick... she's been bragging about the men she's slept with. Apparently she slept with three men in a row one night and happily bragged about it to others...

Maybe it's just time to throw in the towel and be done.

Was your wife a terribly abused/neglected child? Was she molested? She sounds fundamentally flawed.

I think you need to take care of yourself and your son. It seems that your wife has some issues. She left her fiance for you, and now she is cheating with multiple partners.

How was her family of origin? Any abuse?

I would document EVERYTHING and try to get custody of your son.

For documentation: There are apparently pictures of her sleeping with the guy that was her longest affair. He has been incredibly cooperative with me, and I believe he will send them to me so long as we can find a way to keep him out of the drama. I don't wish him any ill; he was lied to by her. That's how she got him to sleep with her. He hates that he was used in that way, and wants to help me. So now I'm going to get a lawyer and file under spousal abandonment and adultery.

As for her past, she was well treated (perhaps a bit spoiled) by her parents. The only thing I can think of is this: They are her adoptive parents. Her mother gave her up for adoption practically when she was born. She's from the Phillipines, and my in-laws adopted her there when she was 3. They didn't tell her she was adopted until she was 18. She was a perfect student, being valedictorian of her class, and apparently never did anything wrong until after she moved out.

She claims to have been raped, once, by a boyfriend when she was still a teenager. Other than that, nothing.

What could be causing her to be so flawed as an adult? Is there anything that I or her family can do? Can we have her committed or something? I don't care if she was upset with me forever for such a thing, as long as she stopped hurting herself.

She came back from her trip on Sunday night and just showed up at my door. She had presents for our son, which she dropped off, but she didn't want to just leave. We talked, calmly, with no arguing or fighting or yelling. She apologized to me for hurting me many times. She was very affectionate. We even cuddled on the couch for a few hours and watched some TV together, while still talking.

Before she left that night, we hugged each other very tightly. She apologized again. Then, before she left, we kissed each other like we haven't kissed in months. It was almost like our very first kiss--shy and hesitant--but it felt so natural. I didn't know what to think about that.

She came back by yesterday. I had something for her and had asked her to come by, but when she got there the power was out at my house so I couldn't show her what I had for her. She stayed with me for many, many hours. She sat on my lap and cried for awhile.. crying about how much she missed when we were friends. I noted the fact that every time we've had problems... every time we've become enemies and turned away from each other in the past... we've always fallen in love with each other again once we allowed ourselves to become good friends again. She smiled, whispered to me to not get any false hope. When I asked her if any hope I had would really be false, she couldn't answer that question.

Later, we lay in what had been our bed and talked about things. I didn't originally intend for that to happen. I had gone in the bedroom to get away from her for a moment and think. She came in and laid down, saying how much she missed her bed. Eventually, I lay down beside her.

At one point, as if I realized how I was feeling and acting, I told her that it would probably be best for her to leave. She said okay and started to get up, saying that she'd leave if that's what I wanted. Of course it wasn't what I wanted. I wanted her to stay with me forever.

I told her she could stay, but that I needed to just go in the other room for a bit and relax. I told her flat out that it was either that or I'd end up kissing her again. Well, she took my hand and weaved her fingers in with mine. Clearly, she didn't want me to leave.

So we kissed again. There was fire and passion in it. Even though it probably wasn't a good idea, we didn't stop there. I made sure to be safe. I'm still going to get myself tested though. I was going to do that anyway.

Anyway, she fell asleep, wrapped up in my arms and the sheets of our bed. I held her for hours, not ever quite drifting off to sleep myself, always floating just at the edge. I do so miss holding her like that.

Eventually, power was restored in our neighborhood and we got out of bed. I showed her what I wanted to show her, we watched a bit more TV, then she left, again with a kiss.

I don't know what to think. I'm wary and cautious, but not yet suspicious. I'm not sure if she's sincere, but she doesn't seem to be trying to manipulate me. I don't want to think that she is, but I can't help but be guarded and watchful.

What should I do now? Where should I go from here?

Not to be rough, but.....Ummmmm, your W slept with 3 guys in one night and another guy slept with her and has pictures, and you WANT her back in your life forever????

WTF???? Hey, do you have any self esteem what so ever? How about your child? Do you think a mother like that is good for him to be around daily??? I just dont get it. *shakes head*.......Im truly saddened by this whole story.

*sighs* I do have self-esteem. Maybe not enough of it. Maybe I'm just too forgiving. Maybe I'm just an idiot. I guess I should just shut up and stop wasting everybody's time.

I'm sorry for being such a stupid, miserable failure of a man and father. I'll stop bothering you all about this.

Look all Im saying is that sometimes a person doesnt know when their WW Spouse has done them a favor. From what I have read, you seem like a nice guy, you can do better than her. One affair is bad, two real bad, but THREE GUYS in one night???? And braggin about it? You sure you want that back? I call that a prostitue myself. Sorry dude, but this is a no-brainer.

Okay Roguex, I am going to be a little more gentle than our friend StartinOver although I agree with much of what he has to say and I DO NOT agree that you are "stupid, miserable excuse for a man and father as you stated".

You most certainly are not and should stop self depreciating right away. You are someone who loved and is in love with a woman with a self destruct wish. You can't change that but you can protect yourself and your children from her and that wish. You do that first, then focus on her and what you can do to help her. I say that because a woman with children that would sleep with three men in one night and so on is morally corrupt. This may be immaturity but I doubt it. It sounds like a classic case of her being sexually abused as a child or having something horrific happen in her childhood and adolescent years. She has not self worth and uses sex as the measuring tool for whether or not she is worthy, attractive or loved. She doesn't know what real love is and is too sick to find out.

You have to accept this and move forward with first protecting your children and yourself from the devesatation of her actions and let the consequences fall directly on her, letting her hit rock bottom and maybe, just maybe she will get it.

Stop kidding yourself, stop thinking emotionally and instead protect, protect, protect yourself and kids and start thinking rationally with boundaries for your WW to follow like getting into individual counseling NOW, not later, NOW!

I am already getting counseling, starting on Thursday. I don't know how I could even begin to convince her to do the same.

No matter what, I'm still moving on. I'm not going to take the events of the past few days as some sure sign that things are changing. Instead, I am just going to watch them and study them while I continue to work towards separation and/or divorce. I'm not stopping in my tracks. I'm not freezing my plans. I'm just confused.

As for her actions: Yes, I think they're deplorable. But I have seen the woman she is capable of being! She can be great, caring, loving, and wonderful. That's the woman I fell in love with! It's the reason I married her! Is it so wrong that I forgive her and want to see that woman again? Is it so wrong that I believe in her and think she can find herself again?

In the end, I just want happiness for myself and my son. I don't care if it's with her, on our own, or with some new woman someday in the future. I just want to be happy!

No, it's not wrong. I still love my WW who cheated on US (not just me, but the kids, families, etc) when our baby was 6 months old with a serial cheater who is OCD, sex addict, etc. but there are now boundaries after I finally became strong enough to let go. We are scheduled for a divorce hearing and custody battle which I feel very confident in in August. I am not "doing" anything to my STBXW but I am holding her accountable for her actions and protecting our children. I wish it would not have come to this but she would have it no other way.

That said,I don't think she is inheritantly "evil" and wish her well for she is the mother of our children although a bad one at the moment. I too saw and married a different woman unfortunately for you and me they are gone and alien WS's have taken over their bodies. We have accept this and move on with life and let the chips fall where they may concerning them. If my WW ever wants or needs or is willing to accept my help in a truthful unadulterated manner then I am willing to help (no sugarcoating, etc) and she must take full responsibilities for her actions and have a lifelong desire to understand why she did what she did.

Love your wife, but hold the alien accountable and offer to get her help. She needs counseling in the worst way. If she will not accept it it doesn't look good for her to recover.

I'm depressed again today. I don't know why, I just am. I mean, yeah. Maybe it's because I miss her. Because I do. No matter what I do, I can't help but still love her and still miss her. Am I upset with how she's treated me? Yes. Am I upset with how she's treated her son? Of course. Am I upset with how she's treating herself? Most definitely. But I know she's better than this and can save herself, if she tries. That's the woman I love... the amazing, beautiful, caring woman that is buried somewhere beneath the alien.

That's the woman I want back in my life. If she can't be that woman, then yes, we're done. I saw that woman in her again though this week. Maybe that's why I'm depressed.

hello there. i'm so sorry you're going thru that right now. and it's really horrible hearing that your WW has bragged about sleeping with 3 different men in 1 night. just doesn't seem right.

your post that she is from the phils just jumped at me. i am from the phils myself and most self-respecting woman from here will never do what she has done.

i think she's being a cake eater. she wants you for the emotional needs she has and she sleeps with many men for adventure/thrill/SF?

ask her to get into IC. she has to get to the bottom of her destructive behavior.

and take good care of your son. your son should be what you are living for.

i wish you the best.

Thank you. My first IC session was yesterday, and it went well. I felt happier afterward. Later in the evening, I ended up going to dinner with the WW and spent some time with her. Things seem to be looking up, as if it may eventually be possible for us to work things out. She's been more affectionate toward me, and isn't afraid to show that affection in public or around her friends. I don't think either one of us is emotionally ready to jump headlong into a reconciliation attempt yet, but at least things are going better.

Her head seems to be clearing, like she's starting to calm down and realize that she's been wrong. I'm wary, of course, and not putting too much stock into it until I can determine how sincere it all is, but so far it seems to be true. I'm not going to expect anything from her or assume anything, but I am not going to give up hope, either.

I dunno. Ultimately, I've stirred things up a bit; parts of Plan A, parts of Plan B, while never stopping in the march toward Divorce. I want to see her do better. I really want to see her accept responsibility for her mistakes and work to make sure she doesn't stray again. I do want her back. I can forgive her for everything, even the worst of things. Right now, she is incredibly lost, and while that is no excuse for her behavior--it doesn't excuse her of responsibility for her actions--it does give me the ability to overlook what she's done wrong and forgive her for it, as long as she is sincerely remorseful and apologetic, and as long as she does show me that she wants to make amends and make things right.

I love her. I'm pretty sure she still loves me, too. I think we can make this work, once we're both ready.

In the end, though, I will be happy, no matter what the outcome.

I saw the WW last night. We sat and watched some TV together and generally enjoyed ourselves. At one point, though, I tried to give her a kiss and she pushed me away while asking me to please stop acting like I was her boyfriend. She asked me to please just be her friend.

That crushed me, and pretty much ruined the rest of the night for me.

We talked some, but I held it in. This morning, at about 5:30, I woke up and realized I couldn't do this anymore. I hopped on MSN and told her goodbye, then logged off. I ignored when she called. Eventually, though, I did call her back. I didn't explain anything to her.. just was sorta silent.

She came over about 2 hours later. I decided to let her in because I figured she deserved an explanation. She stayed until around 1pm. She slept here; I held her, knowing that it was going to be the last time I'd see her for God knows how long.

She just wants to be my friend. She's apparently this affectionate with all of her friends; I'm not special. Sure, she wanted to be a friend with some benefits, but I think she's that way with too many people, and it scares me. Plus, it hurts that I can't mean more to her than her other friends, given that I'm her husband and the father of her child.

So I told her goodbye again. I told her that I can't be her friend because I'm not ready yet. I'm not over her. I love her too much. I have to stay away from her.

God, I hate this. I wish it never happened. I wish she never left. I wish things could be different. Why does this have to happen to me? Why does it have to happen to any of us?

Why does this have to be such a rollar coaster ride? Up, then down, then up, then down...

Is love really like an addiction? Am I going through withdrawl? Not having her makes my life feel incomplete. But on other days or just at other times, I feel perfectly fine without her. I just want this craziness to stop... but I know that 2 months is not nearly long enough for me to have healed.

How long? How much longer do I have to live with this? How do I make it go away?

Just as a 'heads up' for you...

Stand your ground on this. Make it CLEAR to your wife that her choice to give you up means exactly that. She's not only losing you as her husband, she's losing you as a friend as well.

My wife didn't start to waiver in her resolve to go live with OM until I made this undeniably clear to her. I outlined alot of the things that would never happen due to her choice. All of the family-type events that we WOULDN'T share in any way. How I would NEVER accept just a 'friendship' relationship with her. If she left me to go live with OM, we'd divorce, and that would ABSOLUTELY mean we'd never be together in any fashion again. And I meant it. I showed her exactly what would happen...how the kids would have to chose with one of us they'd want at what events, because if she showed up to something with OM, there was no way things would have remained civil.

And she knew me well enough to realize I wasn't bluffing, and that I wouldn't change my mind later.

Believe it or not, it was this that cracked the fantasy bubble. She'd had this fantasy of thinking I'd just forgive her, and that she'd run off and live with OM and all would be wonderful. She thought the kids would accept him as another 'dad', and that her and OM and I would all be best friends. Reality was something far different, and both the kids and I let her know that up front.

Realizing that she really was going to lose me completely, and possibly her kids as well was actually the beginning of her wake up call.

Don't let her hide from the consequences of her affair. Doing so only lets her get away with it. Make it clear to her how much you love her...but at the same time make it clear to her that you are NOT willing to go along with her charade.

Have you already filed or is that paperwork on hold? Did you file legal separation paperwork or divorce?

Have you changed the locks? Taken her off joint accounts? Taken other steps to protect yourself and your son, both physically and financially?

You cannot allow this to keep happening. I keep hearing that plan B is for the BS to preserve what love they have left for the WS. I really think you need to send her a plan B letter and then stop all contact with her except through a designated intermediary.

If you are really determined to work on the marriage, then you need to identify under what terms that will take place and put them in your plan B letter. There are lots of good examples on this site.

Well, I have both Legal Separation paperwork and Divorce paperwork. They're both on hold, though the LS papers are all filled out... just have to be signed and filed.

Locks are changed, we had no joint accounts. Working still toward removing her from utilities and some other bills, but otherwise things are separate.

As hard as it sounds, I suppose I have to go through with the Plan B path. I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to say in it, though... I mean, is it even worth it? She doesn't seem interested in fixing the marriage. She says that she's made her choice. Is this just her own delusions speaking?

Please help me..

The classic question:

Can one spouse save a marriage by themself?

The answer is apparently yes. Well, in most cases, at least.

What about my case? My WS has already moved out. She says she has 'made her decision.' She doesn't want to go to MC because she says it's just a 'waste of my money.' She's been seeing other guys.

Yet she says she still loves me, that she's just not /in/ love with me anymore. She tells me she's not looking for a relationship with anyone... that she wants to be single for awhile. She is still very affectionate to me, even in ways that she hasn't been for more than a year and a half.

Do I have a chance? I mean, really? Should I even bother? I really don't know what to think or do. I love her more than anything, even with the pain she's caused me. I won't let her back into my life if I think that she might do that sort of thing again.. I won't be walked on by her again.. but I think we could be happy enough to where those sorts of things never crossed her mind again.

How do I find a way to get another chance?

Yes.


No.


No.


2x4 coming.

You could beg, plead, whine, cajole, give her an open marriage, gratefully accept the crumbs of affection she tosses your way sometimes, stay up all night wondering where she is and who she's with, be a doormat, and generally give your son an example of what a man is not.

Or you could MAN UP, sever all ties, file for divorce, and get on with your life. If that's enough to shock your WW back into reality, great. If not, then maybe nothing will.

Look, I'm not trying to minimize your pain. But it's apparent that your WW has already made her choice, and it's time for you to act accordingly.

we have exactly the same problem. WH has been "thrown out" by me after D-day (since i discovered it when he was due home from a biz trip that he extended to another trip).

right now his issue is that there is an OC coming so he can't meet me halfway in repairing the marriage. have a feeling he doesn't really love the OW just terribly guilty. they discussed abortion but im not sure if OW is willing although WH is really decided on an abortion. not like he needs another kid!

so now im still in limbo. i wanna hit him with a 2x4 and make him realize to act on the immediate problem coz it will not go away.

maybe just get an annulment. take the easy way out.

Joe Beam, founder of Family Dynamics, was married and they divorced. They later remarried. And built a strong marriage. He maintains no marriage is without hope until one party marries another person.

Well..

Okay then.

Seems pretty simple.

I sent this in email to my wife today. I would like opinions on it. I have removed names though, just for my own safety.

Subject: To the love of my life.

Dear (WW),

This is it. I can't go on like this any longer. Say what you will, but it's just not good for me. I just can't do it.

My love for you is like a mother's kiss on a bad scratch; innocent, pure, powerful, and ever-healing. Yet, at the same time, my love for you is dirty and sexual. Truely, madly, deeply, I am in love with every part of you: Your brains, your looks, your soul, your sex. You have woven your being into my very soul, and I don't want to let it go. Every beat of my heart calls out your name. Can't you hear it?

I love you. I'm in love with you. You are the blood that flows through my veins - lifegiving and necessary. I married you; I was, and still am, willing to give everything I am for you. I was, and still am, willing to give you my life until death and my soul for eternity.

Being with you has always had its ups and downs. However, the fact that we always came back to one another in the end with a stronger love for one another has only made my love for you more complete. We always worked through our problems, and even if it was rough, we always loved one another enough to give each other another chance. It was as if our love was immortal and that nothing could defeat it.

But I know now, that's not true.

I hurt, (WS). I hurt so very much. The events of the past several months have metaphorically torn my heart out and stomped it into the ground. I have tried to go on as normal. I have tried to be your friend, both because I truely do want to be your friend, and also because of hopes that doing so would allow us to heal and return to one another, as has been done every time in the past. But, this time seems different.

This time, that which could not be killed seems to have been killed. At least, in you. And I don't understand.

(WS), I love you. I love you like the flower loves the touch of a cool spring rain. I want you, like the child who wants his teddy bear. I need you, like the parched man who is begging for water. You are my other half; my better half. We always thought we were soulmates. Could this have changed so much?

What could possibly have happened that was so bad that it could kill your love for me? What could possibly have happened that would destroy any hope of its survival? I just don't understand. If you ever truely were in love with me as much as you have said... how could you not want to give us another shot?

If we can't try again, I can't go on. I can't be your friend. Not now. Maybe not ever. I love you far too much to simply be your friend. It hurts too much to be near you. It hurts too much to hear your voice or to feel your touch. I want it all, not just part. I want ALL of YOU, not just part. Especially if that part is the same part you give to others. That makes it hurt even more.

So this is it. For real this time. I've said it before and relented, but I can't let myself do that this time. If you ever truely loved me--if you ever were truely in love with me and ever truely wanted to be with me forever, like we promised to one another--you will come and see me and we will talk it out. We will find a path and we will make things work. We will realize that we really can still be in love with one another; that we really can be the immortal couple who last forever. Our love really is and really can be that strong.

Look into your heart. Listen to your heart. I'm calling for you. Come back to me.

Please don't make this letter be my goodbye to you.

I love you, (WS). I have always loved you, since the moment I first laid eyes on you, and will always love you until the day I die. I don't know that I can ever love anyone else as completely as I did you.

I miss you.

Love, always and forevermore,
(ME)

What do you all think? Was it too much? Did you think it will get across my intentions of either finding a way to work things out or cutting off all contact for good? I know, it's not quite a Plan B letter, but I haven't really been going by the 'rules,' so to speak.

Either way... with her making a real effort to fix things or with me on my own, I will find a way to be happy.

Ummmm.......the letter has some strong points, and alot of desperate sounding points......which will make a wayward run and hide. I think its a bit over the top. You should have been very brief and to the point.


JMHO

*sigh*

I guess I'm desperate, then. And that is a terrible flaw.

I was hoping that it would show that I love her. Not that I was desperate for her to come back.

Oh well. I failed.

Its not that you failed.......next time you email or talk to her.....just try and sound like you are doing OK. She knows you love her and want the marriage back, but you dont want a WW to think you cant live without them. It just makes them stronger and you seem weak. At least from my experience. My EX acted like I was weak and was nothing, until I worked on my self esteem and decided I was someone, and didnt NEED to put up with being treated like nothing.

Like I said......just MHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, things happened this weekend and everything just got worse. I really, really hate this. I hate feeling used. I hate feeling like an idiot. I feel like I'm just so stupid.

She told me tonight (while she was apparently upset because, I'm assuming, somebody she really liked must have spurned her or something--when I asked if she was okay, she told me it wasn't my concern and was none of my business, etc) that she had just 'settled' when she married me. That she didn't 'reach,' and that she just took the 'safe and secure' route. Nothing else she has ever said to me has made me feel worse than those words.

I can't stand this. I can't do this anymore. I don't know how to go on. It hurts so much. I feel so worthless. I just want to sleep forever. In sleep I dream, in dreams I am happy and have everything I want. My whole family can be together and happy. I hate this.

I don't know what to do.

EDIT: Additional info:

She tells me that I am not what she wants. I stopped meeting her emotional needs, and apparently started ignoring her. I can see that it may have really happened. But she stopped meeting my needs, too. She started ignoring me, too. She won't admit that.

I try to tell her that I am willing to work on the needs issues, but she tells me that she shouldn't have to tell me what she wants. Because then I'd just try to change to meet her needs and be what she wants, and she doesn't want to be 'responsible' for me changing into someone that I am not, just because I want to be with her again. This is so aggravating! She doesn't understand... marriages are about communication! Emotional needs can change, but when they do, the spouse has no way of knowing unless you talk about it! She also told me that she doesn't think I could ever give her what she wants and needs.

That just hurts.

Dammit, what do I do?

Well, today is my birthday. I spent some time with WW today because she wanted to see me for my birthday. It was... quiet. We just went to dinner, but we didn't stay long because she wasn't feeling well. I tried to make sure that I didn't act needy or clingy.. in fact, I didn't make any affectionate moves toward her at all. When I took her home, we did sit together in a chair for a few minutes, but that was it.

Apparently she is going to be moving to California soon. She's not sure how soon, yet. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Part of me is relieved because she won't be here for me to see, and so it will make it easier to get over her, but part of me doesn't want her to go because if she does, it destroys all chances of us ever working things out.

I know that I said I didn't want to, but those were words of suffering. She apologized to me for being so hurtful. She was in a very bad mood and said things she didn't really mean because we were arguing.

Anyway, I feel better when I'm around her, now. I don't feel so nervous or upset, and I can leave without being upset and missing her instantly.

But I do still miss her, deep down, and that's what I have to get over. I honestly don't know if this marriage is worth saving, or if it's even saveable in the first place.

But she's beautiful, and I know she has a good heart. I know she's just lost and confused. I really wish things could be different.

Uhm, Rogue?

She's moving to CA with your son? Do I hear that correctly?

LA

No.. my son is staying with me. That has already been decided and agreed upon.

Oh, good...whew.

Sorry for not knowing that. Happy B-Day, a day late and a card short.

LA

Heh, thanks for the birthday wishes.

As for my WW, I still have hopes. I probably shouldn't, but I do. I really want to believe that we can one day work things out. That one day she will figure things out and make herself better.

Maybe that hope will go away someday. Everyone tells me that I shouldn't take her back ever. I still love her so much though. It's so hard.

Does it ever get any easier?

I don't know if it gets easier, I'm about where you are.

I have hope too, gotta cling onto something.

No one wants me to take him back. Says I deserve better after the he** he's put me and the kids through. But like you. I still love him. Sick huh?

I doubt if he'll come back anyway. I think he and OW are making future plans, she just filed D from her H, but I still have hope that someday the A will end and he'll realize what he did.

Guess that's silly, but like I said, gotta hang onto something.

My WW ended her A before she left me. She's not really had any other affairs... I mean, since she left me, would it be classified as an A now? She has, however, slept with several other guys. I dunno.

I don't want to let go, but I am doing so.

Sooo... where to start. Things are going okay on the WW-front. I think we'll be able to be friends, in the end. Maybe not for a long time, but I am much more comfortable with the situation and with her presence than I was before. I can accept that our marriage is over, and I can accept that I have to move on. I would like to think that I'm even doing a damn good job of moving on, now. Of course, I have a brand new, unexpected focus:

I was laid-off on Monday.

So now I have to find a new job! It has definitely given me more to think about, and honestly, having a job so that I don't lose my lifestyle is more important than pining over a woman--excuse me, a girl--who has no idea what she wants or where she is going in life.

I'm going to put the divorce off for now, because I simply just don't have the money. HOWEVER, I will not skip out on the LS papers. I can file those for less than $150, and it is very important that it be taken care of ASAP. Maybe this will end up for the best. I don't pretend to know what tomorrow brings, after all, and maybe some time spent fully separate will give us both time to grow up, and we can try again in the future. I've given up on making it work for now, but I will never ultimately give up hope that, maybe someday, we can try again.

If it doesn't happen, that's fine. I'm not going to wait for her. I'm not going to save myself for her. If I find someone else, I will not chain my heart so that my WW can come back to me in the future... I will move on.

The door is simply being left unlocked, so long as I am still not divorced from her. If I meet someone else that I am seriously interested in, I will get a divorce, and that will spell the end of any chance we have. Call it symbolic... I tend to be that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, thank you all for the help. I know I've been difficult at times, but I'm sure everyone is that way at first, when the pain is at its worst. You've all given me a place to vent and cry and just talk, and that is very appreciated.

I will continue to post, read, help... maybe someday I'll be able to come back here and give you all a happy ending.

Thanks again, and good luck to everyone.