Been in recovery for awhile (18 mo), and have a sticky question that's been eating at me - in terms of SF, is it normal for the WS (my FWW) to have issues or a mental block in enjoying SF w/ me? Honestly, without being too detailed, we'd had issues of frequency and performance that leave neither of us entirely pleased. She says these issues were there before the A (true) but I say the influence of her LTA is like a cancer that remains with us in the bedroom. Her OM was apparently Mr. Wonderful in SF and I am not. She explains this by saying SF w/ him was good b/c it wasn't in reality, which I understand but, suffice it to say, it bothers my male ego anyway and I want the SF connection w/ her that we can't seem to share. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We've been to MC and generally get along very well in all other areas except this. This SF issue makes our M feel incomplete and is frustrating for both of us. Anyone else have similar issues and what did you do about it? I don't believe the OM is in the picture except perhaps as a ghost.

V/r,
No Way

No way....sexual barriers are very common after affairs. But knowing it's fairly normal doesn't make it hurt less. So how does sex happen in your life? Is it predictable? Does it always happen in the bedroom. How about injection some of the passion an excitement of sexuality that affairs possess....INTO your marriage? Try be more spontaneous, risky in terms of timing and location. Do some homework and try out some new techniques. Make sure sex isn't the same ole same ole.

Good luck!!

I'm no expert, but I can try to help.

Not trying to get too graphic, but what is the problem?

ED, premature, no O for you, no O for her, etc.

Or is all that fine and its just not very fulfilling?

Also, if it is any of the above, any health problems or are either of you on medications like AD's.

No Way -

I don't think there's anything you can do, at least in terms of a quick fix, but to keep working at it.

My wife and I had problems in the SF area prior to her A as well - part of it was frequency (not enough for her), part of it was both a real and a perceived (on my part) inability to please her.

Our first counselor told us that intimacy would probably be the last thing fully restored, so I think it's important to keep that in mind.

Something that I just recently realized, that may help you, is to make sure that your personal expectations of what she wants and needs from you are in line with what she really wants and needs from you.

Be open and honest with her on what your needs are as well. There was one aspect of SF that wasn't particularly fulfilling for me, until recently, and now I'm all for it. Once we managed to crest that particular hurdle, I shared with her some information that I hadn't before, and it helped clear some things up.

Just because the OM was a "master" doesn't mean you can't be as well. But do it your way - don't wonder about how he would do this or that. (Yes, easier said than done, I know). Take star*fish's advice - get creative.

Replace the old with the new. Build new memories and experiences together, and evntually memories of OM will be relegated to a dusty, stuffy spot in the attic.

I know this is a sensitive topic to discuss. If you want to talk more in a less public setting, you can e-mail me (my address is in my sig line below). I'm no expert, but I'll happily share what I've learned from my own experiences.

Keep working at it - walls can (and do) come down <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Just because the OM was a "master" doesn't mean you can't be as well."

Exactly.

"don't wonder about how he would do this or that"

I'l quibble a bit here. Don't ladden yourself with trying to be the OM in bed, do, however, find out what he did that made sex so satisfying for your wife and develop the skills in this area to make sex great for your wife.

Find out, in detail, what your wife likes in bed. Learn to do those things well, in the frequency that she wishes.

Make it your goal to always let her O first, you don't get to until she gets there. Try it for a while, it may help.

Just so you know, you can't compete with a fantasy, it isn't even fair to try. You can become a accomplished and caring lover. Do so.

No way - most men are "performance" oriented and most women are "emotions" oriented.

For men, the Act of Marriage, is HOW they feel that they are showing their wife that they love them.

For men, the Act of Marriage is a "natural conclusion" to all the things prior to that that made them feel loved and desired.

When dealing with SF following an affair, both spouses are unsure of themselves. There is no quick fix for that, it will take a lot of time to get back to "normal." So in the meantime why not take some "medication" to help speed the healing process?

How about your "wineing and dining" your wife? Do little things that say "I love you."

If she is feeling insecure, how about a trip to Adam and Eve, Victoria's Secret, etc. for some new additions to her wardrobe that are "just for you?"

Why don't you two just "play" at being lovers as if you are dating? You are MARRIED. Anything you two are both comfortable with is "within bounds."

Here's one you can try if you'd like. Make a "blind date" with her and don't tell her where you are going. Take her back to where you first used to go. Pack a picnic dinner and enjoy a little quiet time for just the two of you on the shore of a lake. NO sex. Just "good vibrations." You might even be surprised to find that the "no sex" winds up getting tossed out the window. In short, rediscover what it means to be romantic.

And brace yourself with lots of patience. Recovery takes a long time. So that gives you lots of time to "practice" being romantic.

God bless.

the om was no master trust me it was sneaky therefore making it feel great.......................thats it there aint no more too it..you may have had problems before the affair and maybe it was better with him but it aint anything you cant do also
i agree that that would be the last thing to fall into place after recovery but in my opion marriage councling on this wont cut it ..maybe a sexual therapist or get an intimate video not porn one of those educational ones watch it alone and see if it works if not watch it together and see how you can make it more enjoyable..
this is always a touchy subject with people so dont let it get in your head cause then its anxiety and itll make matters worse

No way,

I notice that your wife is 39. I am 42 and in the last few years I have noticed that my sex drive has changed.

I am no longer ready willing and able everyday as I was when I was younger.

I can literally plot my sex drive on the calendar. H and I know when the timing is right and when it is not. I have a few days every month when I am rarin` to go, a few days when I can take it or leave it, and a few days when H will draw back a bloody stub if he tries to touch me.

I am wondering if you can see a pattern to your W`s disinterest or if the lack of drive is consistent throughout the month?

Women in their late thirties can sometimes be experiencing perimenopause, that is a period of about ten years that preceeds actual menopause. Your W may be beginning to experience adolesence in reverse. Horomone levels begin to drop and that can sometimes affect the sex drive.

I think your might want to suggest to your W a trip to her doctor to be checked for this. It`s possible that the LTA is affecting her sex drive but it`s equally possible that her body is changing. And the problem may be a combination of the two.

It would be such a shame for your male ego to take a hit if in fact part of this problem has a natural normal biological explaination.

My WS sister in law gave me some advice. She called it the rose test. Keep running your hand over your arm. Practice all day and when you feel confident. Use a rose petal and see if you leave a mark when touching it.

Touch your wife this way after you've "mastered it" but don't just go for the private area, start in other areas that may excite her, toy around. You two could turn this into a lot of fun just be exploring each other's bodies and finding out what works! Set apart some time and find out what she wants. Romance her.

Get someone to watch the kids. Buy her something sexy to wear. Rent a hotel room. Prepare it with rose petals and champagne during the day. Don't tell your W anything. When you come home, have the babysitter show up and everything all packed. Take your wifes arm and walk out the door. Take her to her favorite restaurant or place like a lake etc. Then retire to your hotel room. I think you can do the rest.

Remember to leave hints to her throughout the day/ week. Let her simmer. And be confident. I read somewhere that confidence is what most (not all) women find most attractive.

ANYWAY, good luck, I wish I was where you are with my WS.

Brian

Starfish & Rpyrnne,

Thanks for your replies - after a long time of dating and being married, she is nearly always the initiator and decider of when/if SF happens. A pattern established long ago after my advances had been shot down and she knows I'm generally always willing when she is.

Part of the issue is physical from what I can tell. She tells me (following the policy of RH) that I'm, ahem, below average male-wise and that I am rather quick on the trigger (true). She likes the "main event" and doesn't so much enjoy other activities. She says she's more like a man that way. She can and does O w/ me but sometimes not if things proceed too quickly. Hence there is a phys problem that I can't really do anything about (size). I'm not going to buy the snake oil stuff that you see advertized in so many places. I'm not on any meds, active and am in good shape.

I can't do anything about how I am though I can work on response times. It's just frustration b/c we seem to have a mismatch in this area. Not sure if she's normal in what she says about this or still feeling the effects of what the OM could deliver?

V/r,
No Way

CN - Thanks, you're right but we already know what we & she both like in SF - the "main event". She can usually O if I don't first but often, like I said, the timing doesn't always work out that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Frustrating but something I want to work through so it's fulfilling for both of us.

V/r, No Way

No Way -

First, don't classify yourself as "below-average". In my personal opinion, there is no "average" when it comes to size, except in the purely mathematical sense of taking a group of sizes, dividing by the number in the group, and getting the "average". It can't be changed (at least by not any reasonable or safe methods that I'm aware of).

Most people will say its not the size of the boat, its the motion of the ocean (or something like that). So try not to dwell on the size issue. One person's average is another person's above average.

You said she initiates most of the time (my wife used to as well). Do you know why she shot down your advances, and if so, can you do anything to change that?

The good news is, it is possible to improve response times - both for recovery and for staying power. This is something that you can work on together - practice makes perfect, and this practice can be fun <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is not unusual to be mismatched (physically or otherwise). My wife and I have a sex drive mismatch - she's got a much stronger one than mine.

Some mismatches can be overcome or corected. In my case, realizing I was suffering from some level of depression, and taking supplements (not ADs) to help with that resulted in a significant increase in my drive.

Like many things in life, success builds upon success. Find the things that work, and build from there. Try not to let setbacks derail you. This is not easy, but it does work.

By the way, are you military or ex-military? I ask because of the way you signed your post, with V/r (Very Respectfully).

Daisy,
Thanks, I appreciate a woman's inside on this and it's entirely possible that natural changes could be occurring for her. It does gall me that these changes didn't seem to influence bad behavior during the A but this is where we are. Still, I've thought that's it's likely she's changing and she does have a cyclic pattern like you mentioned, very familiar to me. You may have read above what she likes in SF and I appreciate the advice of those here.

Since I can't ask my friends and family what's normal, particularly in recovering from an A; I appreciate and value what people say here.

V/r,
No Way

Thank you and best wishes as well. Like you read on this forum, it takes time and discpline to work though the issues. They may stick w/ you for a long time but the hope is the wound becomes a scar that fades w/ age, and never re-opens.

V/r,
No Way

No way....my H is kinda fast on the trigger and pretty average sizewise too (kinda makes me feel good I excite him in that way) at the same time....it does create a challenge. His solution....he won't enter me until I've already reached one O already...manually or orally. That way....if he can get me there before he even starts....the worry that I won't be satisfied....is already gone for both of us....and I'm even MORE ready for him. KWIM?

I initially thought I had something to offer you...but after reading this, I'm not sure I do.

She told you you were "below average"? What about the possibility that she's a bit "above average"?

I'm afraid that this would be a dealbreaker for me...telling that something that nothing could be done about was a barrier to intimacy.

If you are able to continue in this marriage after this...I'd say you are a big man...a big man indeed.

No Way, I can't help you with the size issue . . . You can't help that . . . this is one case where I think Radical Honesty is, well, let's say callous. I guess you could get a penile implant or something, but really.

There is something you can do about the fast trigger thing though. They make condoms that desensize you and they work. I bought these once while by accident, and let me tell you, my wife was the one to throw them away! Man on man you can last forever with one of those things.

Sorry if this is a bit graphic, but really pick up a box and see if they work for you.

No way - Ok, I can relate to what your talking about. I'm now at the point where my FWW is always the initiator and decider of when/if SF happens. I too, got tired of getting shot down. Especially after D-Day, I hardly ever bring it up, as it's like a double body blow to get told no. My FWW also says similar things about being "more like man that way". That drives me nuts, cause all the self-help books out there talk about romance and build up, etc. and my FWW doesn't seem to care for any of that.

Anyway, as others have said, don't worry about size. My FWW was nice enough to tell me OM was better endowed than I. (gee, of all the things you chose not to tell me the truth about, couldn't you have picked this one) I guess that PORH for ya. Anyway, as many others have side, size is not the only thing that matters. However, if it does bug you, there are some things you can do. Your right about the snake oil stuff for size. However, as men age, they also have changes in hormones and develop deficiencies in certain vital vitamins and minerals. Addressing that, well how do I say it, it won't make you bigger than you can be, but it can allow you to maximize your potential.

About being quick, most of the time this is also caused by deficiences in certain vitamins and minerals. Like I said, I'm not an expert but my understanding is that low amounts of serotonin can cause increases in adrenaline in the body, which can cause things in the SF are to go a little fast.

As to some of the other stuff, I think some of the other folks are giving better advice, cause I still haven't figured it out.

Starfish - Thanks for the encouragement and problem solving technique - sounds like a great compromise for both. I'm behind on my acronyms, what is KWIMs?

V/r,
No way

Funny how WS will be honest about the things that hurt the most and lie about the other stuff.

My FWW never dropped that bomb on me but there were plenty of others she did that cut to the core of my heart.

About the SF thing.

Just to let you know there is a procedure to enlarge if that is something you really want or are concerned about. I think the place is called the quest institute. They guy works out of NY and Chicago. My friend worked there and said it ran about 5k and is an outpatient surgery.

They snip the tendan at the top that attaches it to the body and inject fat from your rear. Kinda drastic but it is an option.

As far as being quick on the trigger there are many options. The condoms are one as well as keigel(sp) excercises. The ones women do after they have a child. It works for men too.

Do not spend your money on the snake oil treatment.

You are a better man then me becuase if my FWW said that I would say well how do you think I feel. It is like throwing a hotdog into the holland tunnel. LOL But thats just me.

BB

I'd say she'd shoot me down b/c she had pre-conceived notions on how the SF would be - sometimes good and sometimes not great. She'd tell me this and now I feel it's the influence of her having been w/ another M.


True - it's something we both want to work on but are having difficulty.

Yes, AD military actually. Very perceptive of you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just finished a 2 yr assignment where I was a geo bachelor and am now home full time now on my new assignment. The geo-bach and deployments were a significant causal factor in this OM's ability to worm his way into our M.

V/r,
No way

Low Orbit,

Well, we discussed the very same thing, in a humorous way, as a possibility. Got me, I'm not a doctor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]


It's tough and that's why it bothers me and I'm asking if others have had the same experiences. It's not a deal breaker - I do love her and believe she loves me, plus with two kids, that would be selfish of me to call off the M because of a lack of SF. If she were to resume the A, then that's a deal breaker (she knows this).

Thanks, not without it's challenges but I pray daily for God's help and grace for both my FWW and I.

V/r,
No Way

Not if it is high on your EN's list.

For me H&O and SF are high on my emotional needs list.

If your EN's are not being met you have a valid concern. A's are known to happen when one Spouse is not having their EN's met.

If SF is not one of your big EN's then it is ok I guess.

Hurting - No, SF is #1 on my list, my FWW says it's high for her too but I don't see that translated into much SF activity btwn us. It's an impasse for both of us and a major problem.
We get along in about every area except this. Our MC liked that way we related to each other except we didn't explore this area very much. He suggested we spend time cuddling, etc. but like I said, my FWW likes the "main event", not very much of the snuggling.

PS. I'm still figuring out this quote stuff, so thanks for bearing with me.

V/r,
No Way

BTW (by the way)...
KWIM = Know What I Mean?

No Way,

Ok first I really liked Star's advice to you about getting the job done before you get on the job so to speak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would like to encourage you to look for articles on Sexual Aversion, it often happens after an A and it can be addressed.

Next, think about "other" sexual things you can do. I learned long ago when starting and running an organization that you cannot "replace" someone who leaves. If the person is good, they tend to make the job their own, accentuating their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. So when hiring someone new, the idea was NOT to look for someone like the previous person, but someone that had basic good, sound qualities, and then let them make the job their own.

I think you should consider this as well. Enthusiasm overcomes many things, focus overcomes many things, and often a different approach overcomes things. I would recommend that you consider "making this job your own" and not try to replace OM. Do you see what I mean? More touch, more oral (if that works for you), more time, interesting times or places, lay out a battle plan and consider that this job should be your own.

So please look up sexual aversion, it has been discussed at length on this site, but not for a few years.

God Bless,

JL

No way,

I don`t know if you are aware of this or not but it is possible for a man to have an orgasm without ejaculating.

My H used to be a bit quick on the trigger sometimes too but that is no longer a problem.

I am not a man so I`ll try to explain this the best I can. Men have a muscle that can squeeze off the flow of ejaculation. It`s not something that men regularily use but it`s there. My H likens it to cutting off urine flow. It`s not the same muscle but it`s in the same area.

Now the first couple of times H did this was purely by accident. H wasn`t sure exactly what happened, He felt like he had an orgasm but he did not ejaculate. And he could keep right on going.

Then I ran across some information about this and told my H he wasn`t imagining it, this is something any man can learn to do.

So H made a concerted effort to try and do it again. After a few misses he got the hang of it. Now he can do it anytime he chooses. H can have a few orgasms before he`s done and now he decides when he`s done.

I do not remember what this technique is called, perhaps some of the men here have heard of this and could fill in more info. I think a Tantric sex manual (sic?) might also explain how this is done.

And it is my understanding that this is something you can practice till you get the hang of it by yourself.

JL and Daisy,
Thanks for the replies and good advice. I wholeheartedly have the desire and need for SF w/ my W and it's something we enjoyed in the past, though w/ some glitches. I'm willing and have used other approaches and ways w/ her b/c it completes the connection in our M and I enjoy it too. I don't think she's sexually averse (except maybe w/ me) but I will look the topic up. I've asked her in the past and she says no, that it that preconceived notion of how things are. It's not like that and I say it's the residual poison left from the A.
Daisy - I'd heard of this technique (kegels I think) you mentioned and have tried it with some success. It takes some practice but I'll continue to try it.

V/r,
No Way

No Way, let me reassure you that size is not the issue here. I have a theory that a lot of OM's are actually very small in the size department (the OM in my case was and I've heard of others on here). I think that is why some of them become OMs. They are masters of romance and smooth talking.

Also, I don't wear your wife's age as a reason either. I'm 52 and have had absolutely NO change in my very strong libido as the years have gone by.

What IS the problem is intimacy. Your W is still a WW in her head.

My H and I have been in recovery for a while now...and have similar SF issues.

We worked on it in MC and read a few books on the subject.

There was one set of books that were quite helpful, but they were loaners and I'm not sure I have the titles right.
One was 'How to have great sex...for men', the other was the same for women. I believe they were purchased at Chapters.

My H and I read them at the same time, and make a point of discussing what interested us when we could.

For us the issue was emotional intimacy. We didn't need to cuddle etc...we needed to talk openly and honestly about things that MATTERED to each of us. Whenever we accomplished that I was more open to SF. (never a problem for him)

Also...my H is sometimes a bit 'quick on the trigger' as well...and we found a desensitizing lotion at an adult 'toy store' that works really well. The sales folks at those places are pretty informative...if you're not to embarassed to ask.

One more point...I agree that size isn't an issue. Did you know that there are no nerve endings higher than 4 inches inside most women? It was news to me when I found out. LOL!

Ok...I'm blushing now.

Good luck to you!
B.

was it the "Married guys guide to good sex" by Penner?

Don't think so BK...but I'm going to double check with the friend that loaned them to us and get back to ya'll.

My ex WW would only O orally. I would stick to it till I know she did. Then I would go for the "main event".

If you're worried about endurance, don't. Worrying about it will only make it a self fullfilling prophecy. Focus on her pleasure and what you're doing that she enjoys.

When you feel you're getting close to O, pull out and stop the stimulus that is getting you there. Once you calm yourself back down, go back in. It usually only take a few seconds. It might take a few times before you get the urge under control, but I was able to do this and get to the point where I had total control and wasn't going to O until I decided it was time to.

The big thing here is to focus on her and her pleasure and not think about your endurance. If you worry about it, you will have problems. Same with her, if she concentrates on you, the O will take care of itself.

Make it a game and it will be exciting for both.

Is your wife willing to let you take the lead and initiate S now? Have you asked her to agree to this? If you are always the one taken by surprise, I can see how it could be difficult for you since you can be quick on the trigger. I would think that if you were the one in charge more often, you could set things up better: Pull your trigger on your own first to calm yourself down, use desensitizing lotion first, mentally prepare yourself to use muscle control (that suggestion sounds great-stopping the ejaculate using muscle control). Can you have a quick trigger O first with oral S and then keep things up in order to have S in a standard way?

It sounds like that "size" issue is a non issue since she has an O with you. Sounds like the quick trigger is the main issue. Again, I think it would be difficult for you to solve the quick trigger problem if you are not the initiator more frequently.
Lake

KiwiJ,
Thanks for your reassurance and you are correct about the OM being a master of smooth talking, he used to be a friend of mine.
I think you also hit the nail on the head here too! I know she feels regret and guilt over this and has said that the smooth talker wormed his way in bit by bit (probably the typical method). I'm concerned that she's still vulnerable as a FWW to being sucked back in, though NC seems to be in place and holding.
We are working on the intimacy issue and I do give her credit for admitting, honestly, what's one of the SF issues for her. I hope we can work it out but at least we're talking about it.

V/r,
No way

Lake, Papa and Banyak,

Thanks for the suggestions and from others too - all things we've tried and enjoyed from time to time. She just has to get in the mood to be willing to do so. Sometimes it takes a few drinks and conversation for her to get there.

As far as the initiator - well, I guess it's a pattern we've fallen into after years of M and years of her rejecting my advances. She says she needs more talk & emotional connection before SF. We've talked more openly and honestly than ever since D-day but sometimes it feels like scaling Mt. Everest. If you remember the movie "As Good As it Gets" w/ Jack Nicholson where he says to Helen Hunt, that he's all talked out and exhausted? Sometimes it feels like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Still, I want to be the initiator sometimes and will continue to pursue my #1 EN. I only want her, I'm not concerned w/ becoming a WS b/c my EN isn't being met.

It just doesn't seem normal for a couple who both claim to enjoy SF to rarely have it, thus the frustration and disappointment for both.

V/r,
No way

Just wanted to pop back in and let you know I wasn't able to get more information on the books I suggested. I'm afraid they've been loaned to another couple...and we aren't able to get in touch with them right now.

I'm pretty sure the titles are correct, but I still can't think of the author's name.

Sorry about that!

Perhaps someone at a book store can help?

All the best to you!
B.

Banyak,

No problem, thanks for the follow up. I'll do some research on my end.

V/r,
No way