Good evening...

I don't know if anyone here still remembers me...or cares about this update....

I am on my way back from California. I left early because Ann's father in law died last week, his funeral was yesterday and she left town Saturday morning. I left Calif Saturday morning also and am currently spending 2 days in Texas resting up from 1400 miles on the road.

Last night I talked to xW for 3 hours....

She broke down and apologized for everything she has done, told me she couldn't believe what she has put me through, how she didn't know how I stayed with her as long as I did.

She told me how she misses me, she remembers how good I was to her and how she misses having me there to tell her I love her. She misses snuggling at night...traveling with me with I go on trips.

I told her I would forgive her...but I committed to nothing else other than to say we would talk again. I didn't ask about OM.

Anyone who wishes to say "I told you so"....feel free to jump in and do so....

Georgia..

Hi F.G.G,

I don't know much about your story but this sounds huge for any divorced person who had a wayward spouse.

I'm curious...would you consider a relationship with your ex wife?

yes..

Thanks for the update - my mantra is "affairs always end".

This gives me hope

Me too!

OH MY GOD, GEORGIA....

"ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WHEN YOU BELIEVE"

I've spent the day in a canyon..thinking, meditating, and praying...

Tonight I called my pastor and we talked quite a while.

The bottom line is...I'm going to go slow...let the dust settle...and really think this thing though before I contact her again...

I know I can't marry Ann with my xW wanting to get back together and asking me to forgive her.

This is hard...

Georgia

I'll add....

what I told my pastor is... I think we're going to get back together. Maybe too optimistic, once she finds out about my baggage she may not want to.

But...it's a start...

Although i didn't follow your full story I do remember you well when I fist came here 16 months ago.

I have heard many times that the WS will seek reconciliation when they feel they are loosing the BS. I'm happy for you but this is going to be tough with Ann in the picture now.

B is right...A always end!

My x wanted me back too when she found out I moved on. It's very predictable and happens a lot. Do not give up a good thing (if that is what you have in Ann) for a known cheater xw.. just mho.

Stay prayerful and Listen to the Spirit...because as you know HE is working in this....

I have a question.

Since you have been divorced and are currently engaged to another woman...why did you allow this conversation to occur?

Does your fiance know that she is second choice? [by this I mean does she know that if you can work things out with your ex wife you will regardless of her investment or the promises you have made to her...she needs this info...it is unkind to string her along]

I would say that either you were not as committed to this engagment/marriage as one would hope [as was suggested and summarily dismissed when you posted your engagament announcement...that your grieving period was not over yet in which case I feel very bad for your fiance who has been little more than a diversion/tool] or you aren't getting off to a very good start with enforcing protective boundaries around the relationship.

I suprised by all the yee haws and kudos.

I am not one bit surprised by any of this....

I think Georgia knows EXACTLY what I mean...

So was I. Actually, I was disgusted.

There is A LOT more to tell about all that is going on.

Keep in mind this conversation happened last night. I haven't talked to Ann since Friday night when I left her townhouse.

Boy...I'm going to open a whole pandora's box here if I try to summarize...but I will anyway.

Under one condition...

I'm hungry..there is a Fridays in the hotel. I'm going to walk downstairs and eat while I do this...

Wifi in the hotel....

Back shortly...

I am not disgusted.

Eerie to me because this is as I would have predicted.

YOU should be disgusted as another person is going to get hurt because georgia decided to get involved in a relationship before he was truly ready to do so... and another persons life is about to be ripped out from under her... I guess it's a just a free for all in the world of infidelity. Heck, this clown is already being unfaithful to Ann. Great lessons learned huh?

The lack of morals and caring displayed on these boards someitmes is shocking.... people just trample all over others and use them... yes, use them... while waiting for something "better" to come along. Imagine poor Ann in all of this... gets dumped for the XWho... and why... because she trusted in someone to care enough for her to not let something like this happen. Poor girl.

wow..how about waiting for FACTS before jumping to conclusions...

Please?

MEDC:

You do not have the RIGHT to tell me how I SHOULD feel because it does not fit with your viewpoint.

Also, it is not OK to call GEORGIA or anyone else a CLOWN.

I do not FEEL DISGUSTED but it's perfectly OK with me if you feel that way.

okay... let's see you dress this piggy up. Dress and lipstick always helps in a situation like this.
Okay, I am done my rant..... sorry if I am jumping to conclusions.

And that too...

I have a right to say what I want... if you choose not to listen... that is your perogative. And Mimi...your advice on how I communicate goes in one ear and out the other.

You're funny, MEDC... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What's this about dresses and lipstick???

Ok..I'm finished with my joking...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm working in Word...be here shortly...all would do well to wait...

Please...

Bozo...

Bo' Georgia:

I bet I already know what you are going to say.....

Unless you're going to say "Ann" was a contrived ploy to scare your ex into reconsidering I'm not sure what facts you may present that would chane the general outline...

Ann and I had a great time during this visit. The apartment I stayed in was much nicer than I expected…and every morning I worked form my desk looking out on the mountains.

Within just a few days of arriving there…me and her kids had become great friends. They both were very, very kind to me and we had some great times together. We had several family dinners (including me) along with the grandkids and I was treated by all just like one of the family. I spent time holding her gd (1 y.o.) and loving it. I read to the boys (4 y.o.) and loved it too.

I was invited to her D’s wedding last week….a family only wedding.

All the “obstacles” we expected just melted away.

However….. I could tell very quickly that Ann was “different”…seemed a bit nervous when I tried to bring up the M word. So…pretty early on she told me that she was really surprised, but she didn’t feel like she was ready to move on yet. She said she didn’t want to hurt me…but she was feeling like she really wasn’t over grieving the loss of her husband…and was really feeling uncomfortable being in such a serious relationship.

In the mean time…I got to observe her with her grandkids a lot. As you may (or may not) recall, the original plan was for me to live in Calif for a while, then we move back to Ga. I was watching her all this time thinking to myself that there was no way I could ask her to leave her grandkids AND her daughters. I just didn’t feel like she would be happy…even if she did agree to do so.

So…I spent a lot of time thinking about me living there. I can tell you…even though this GaGuy has spent a lot of his life as a FlGuy….the Bay area for the rest of my life ain’t my cup of tea.

Before this visit, she had spent a lot of time telling me about how she wanted to start a new life, move back to the south, get away from her late h’s legacy, etc…

But…what I observed didn’t support that. I saw a woman who is VERY happy in her environment. I saw absolutely nothing that indicates to me a desire to “start over”…as she had so often said.

We talked about that. In fact…she said she wasn’t really so sure she could leave…that the reality of thinking about REALLY doing it was a lot harder than she thought.

However…the last week everything really crashed. Her d’s wedding was Friday night. Her FIL (had the brain tumor..in Tenn..we went to visit him when she came to Ga…remember?) died Wednesday night. So, Wednesday night we talked…agreed to put our relationship on “hold” until we could have time without all these distractions to see what we should do. I told her that if she felt she needed to…she could give the ring back. She said she appreciated me understanding. We agree that “later” would be the time for such discussions.

Friday night we got back to her townhouse after the wedding about 10:00 PM. She, her #1D, the #2D and her new H all caught a flight out of SFO on Saturday morning at 7:00 AM. I left at 9:00 and drove to Flagstaff for the night.

I told her that I would use this trip home to pray about our relationship and digest all that was going on. She told me she would be in touch when she gets back.

Sunday morning (yesterday) I e-mailed her close friend (the elderly friend who has been her advisor through this whole thing). Her and her husband and I have gotten to be super close friends…

Here is what I wrote her yesterday morning, before hearing from xW:

Thank you for your kind words. I have spent a lot of today thinking about our relationship. I must consciously put God first in my life and thoughts or I get really depressed about this. I don't know where Ann is going to end up on this..but I wouldn't be real surprised if I've seen her for the last time. She asked me to be patient with her...and I will. But..I'm having to really lower my expectations to keep from being too hurt. Unless something changes...and it may...she needs (or wants at least) a (late husband) clone who can step into her current life and just carry on. Perhaps I'm being a bit cynical. However, the Ann I've seen for the past month isn't the one who told me she wanted to get away from being Mrs. xxx, start over where no one knew her, get back East where she could have some horses, love again and be loved again...etc....Perhaps she's realized the price to be paid (moving outside her comfort zone) is too great.

Anyway…so that’s where it was yesterday before the conversation last night…..

And...I want to add....

the one convo with xW last night would, for me, be very, very foolish to "run" back to her. I'm not sure I'm not being played like a cheap fiddle...(as they say).

So...am I dung in xW's eyes until she thinks another woman wants me????

And...is she just lonesome (and broke)..or does she want ME back?

All these questions are very, very legitimate...

It is way premature to say where this is going...

But...these are the FACTS as I knw them right now...

Nothing personal, but after reading the above... the rest of this story looks like dressing up the piggy. If you could't marry Ann because of what was in your story... why say it had to do with the ex WW?

What I AM going to do right now is....nothing.

I admire the way some folks here can make such life changing decisions on the spur of the moment..and never second guess themselves...

Pardon my rudeness, but I don't have the gift of making spur of the moment life changing decisions so quickly and easily.

Do you folks really do that in YOUR life?

Must be nice...

Gosh, I'm starting to agree with MEDC more and more each day! What is happening to me.

I do hope that Ann is not going to be hurt because your ex is changing her mind as you start moving on.

I really do see this differently..

I'm not here to knock anyone who doesn;t see it the way I do..

this is my honest opinion...

I can relate to Ann and to Georgia's wife...

Like me, they were with their Hs for a lifetime...30 years or so..since almost childhood...like me...

For Ann, Georgia is not the "LOVE OF HER LIFE..the FATHER of her children and he would be second best...

They could have a GOOD LIFE together but he would be second best, trying to FIT IN there...

For Georgia's wife, IMO, his move to California was like PLAN B for her..she missed him and realized that she had lost him...THE LOVE OF HER LIFE....

That's what happened with my H during PLAN B..when he felt that I was MOVING ON after the sale of our house...

My opinion...

I think Ann will be JUST FINE...

Georgia... you are going to get burned here. You got out of a bad situation with a bad wife... now you are going to consider getting back in....
I have no idea what you were asking me and why about people making spur of the moment decisions. I wasn't questioning that at all... I WAS questioning the validity of your new story based on your statement about how YOU could not marry Ann knowing your XW wanted you back. They were your words... not mine. They are the ones that have clouded up this whole story.
If you came on here and said... Ann is not wanting to get married and btw, my exw has expressed an interest in getting together again... you would have gotten a different response. Your original posts frankly made you sound like a jerk that was dumping Ann in order to go back to the cheater. And frankly, it all sounded... based on YOUR words, terribly unfair to Ann.

"Second-best" is less loving than I mean.

I mean a DIFFERENT kind of LOVE than she had for her deceased H..the kind of LOVE that Georgia's wife had for HIM...

Like for me, having been with my H since age 18, I KNOW that I will NEVER LOVE anyone else the SAME as I have loved him...

I believe that I can LOVE again...but it won't be like MY FIRST LOVE...

For both Ann and Georgia's wife, there were time periods when they were DEEPLY "IN LOVE" with their Hs...

These were not LONG-TERM UNHAPPY MARRIAGES....as far as I can tell...

First..I apologize to all for my shortness..

But, I'm afraid I don't see this as quite so black and white...like a decision to be made by "pros and cons".

yes...Mimi...maybe there is something to what you say. There is no doubt in my mind that Ann would make an EXCELLENT wife (Pro. 31). But, I will never have that 29 years of history she has with her late-H.

Something more that I didn't report...

xW is CLAIMING that she doesn't even remember a lot of what has happened. Ex.: She asked me why I thought she didn't love me. I told her that for years she had been TELLING me that she didn't love me, wished she had never married me,etc. When I said that...she starting crying (quite violently)and said she couldn't believe she said that and that she doesn't remember EVER saying that...

She said this whole thing was like a fog to her and she's beginning to feel good again and feeling like herself.

"oh yes, they call it puppy love....."

I had stated my religious point of view....but Georgia..you already know that....

it's his EX WIFE.... oh, okay... it was Satan.... I forgot.... here I thought it was his W making those decisions...
in a world where we can have a evangelist having gay sex, doing drugs and being a hypocrite blame his actions on Satan... I guess I am not surprised to hear that reasoning.
She can be forgiven... doesn't mean he needs to be silly enough to take her back and treat another unfairly.

I don't know if anyone here still remembers me...or cares about this update....

Aren't you that guy that has the pond business in Alabama?

That ought to teach you not to make statements like that -

BTW, I know it's really Georgia, but - you know how it is when you tease someone. You have to make it good.

Well, other that all this other stuff, how are you?

I should jump over the canyon and come see you in Flag - but I think I'll sleep instead.

Really - how is this affecting you?

SS

GG,

Bottom line.....you have to live with your decisions. I sense a lot of second guessing on your part but the real excitement comes from a possible reapproachment from your ExW. I have always said that virtually ALL WS's could repair their relationship if they took the attitude " Whatever it takes, for as long as it takes"

Also, you could fill the Library of Congress trying to explain your relationship to your Ex and all of us here would barely have an inkling as to it's true nature.

Best of luck.

Folks...I appreciate your input.

I am tired...I've got a long way to drive tomorrow. I'm going to try to make it to Memphis.

I'll be back...perhaps this will all get a little clearer with the passage of some time.

Ann flys back home tomorrow.

Georgia

FGG,

Well my friend it is a "fine kettle of fish" you find yourself in. Very complicated, very emotional, no obvious way to go. Sounds dreadful doesn't it?

Well, it is not. It has been my observation that every time I came to a major decision point in my life where I was sort of in your position...the decision was really made for me. I just had to be still and look at the data and the facts. These things will become clear to you, have patience.

I would suggest that you think of a plan by which you gather the information you need to make the decisions and then show patience in executing it. It may become very obvious that Ann is the one. It may become obvious that your exW is truly out of the fog and does love you. OR it may become obvious that neither woman is for you, or yours to love.

Slow down and take your time. Give your thinking and your feelings time to synch. up. Pray, contemplate but most of all keep your eyes open. I think you will come to a point where the BEST decision will come to you.

God Bless,

JL

Clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. You may not have to decide. Someone may be doing that for you already.

As for the WS making a comeback, be careful. From what I read it is her needs she is interested having met not yours. It is still in the me-ism stage which makes this a very dangerous place t/b.

In regards to Ann, take it slow. She isn't ready and neither are you. You both like each other but not enough to give your up your current livestyles. That's quite telling. Yet time may make the heart grow fonder at the very least, if that time is well spent, you w/b wiser.

take care,
L.

Well FGG you have painted yourself into a bit of a corner.

I can only suggest you STOP right now from committing to Anne or Xw or anyone and take the time to find yourself first.

Anne does not sound from your post she is at all ready to commit, I have to wonder are you?

One thing I will say though is NEVER marry Anne to avoid hurting her. THAT would hurt her so much more than drawing back until you know what you really want. As you said Anne may want to call it all off anyway.

While wishing that you find all the happiness in the world, this rethink by Anne and yourself may be a blessing in disguise if as it appears both of you are feeling uneasy about giving up so much of your past and present relationships.

Maybe you are both just not ready to say a final goodbye to the past, maybe you both don't want to.
However I would suggest you need to talk to Anne asap or as soon as she is ready to talk no matter which of you wish to reconsider.

But I still wish you all the best.

Good morning all....

I think the wise counsel here can be summarized as patience and time. I really don't know what's next, but amazingly enough I'm not feeling in a panic about it.

If anything...I would wrap up my thoughts as this:

1. The idea of marrying Ann is almost intoxicating. The idea of US living on the mini-ranch we looked at in Georgia, which at the time she was in total agreement with...seems like a dream.

2. The idea of living with Ann in Ca for the rest of my life...I need to have some time to really consider that one..

3. Jumping back in with xW scares me to death...but the outcome could be wonderful. She IS the love of my life...

4. The thought of having my FAMILY back together is exhilirating. One family, our boys....future grandkids...that is who I am...

But...I know this will work out in time. I really am ready to see...and be patient. No more committment talk to either right now.

xW was leaving town today to go to her parents.

I'm off to Memphis....

anyone know any good bar-b-que spots?

Georgia

I hear Corky's is really good!

http://www.corkysbbq.com/

Be safe out there...

FGG:

I like the painted in corner analogy.

You have made committments to Ann.

And then xWW calls.

No, you do not have to do anything.

This has been a tough week.

Ann's daughter is getting Married and that creates alot of turbulance, and then, her father dies.

Ann backing up in the R is expected. Look at what is going on.

Ex calling you, and you talking for 3 hours, may just be her realization that she really screwed up. And with kids, etc, it is not unlikely that you are talking to her anyway.

The Ex is grasping that she will really lose you to Ann. And she's making a play. Her denial of the hurtful statements that she has made to you in the past clearly indicate to me that she is just reacting. Nothin' new there for you. COntinue the conversation or not, your choice. But I do not feel that she has reformed in the least.

And call Ann. Can't hurt. She is hurting now, with the loss of her Father, her Husband, and now maybe even you. So follow up with her. Maybe you will not get married, but there is something there isn't there? Explore that.

Do you have to sort out where you two might live? Yes. Because you are a long ways away. And how she acts with all of her family around, much satisfaction and admiration. Just take it slow.

Don't worry about MEDC. He's got a mountaintop that he likes. I've got mine. And you do need to be honest with Ann.

As for me, I could have never left my BS, because I wanted the things that you described with ExW. Your boys, grand kids, and growing old. Same here. But when busted, I realized the hurt I had caused BS. And changed my behaviors to lessen that hurt, and to make her hopeful for the future. You ExW never did that. Isn't doing it now.

Georgia,

Reading your posts I come away thinking of a few things. I don't get the impression that marrying ann right now is the right thing to do at this time. It could be down the road, but not right now. You don't wish to be living in the shadow of another man. If she can express to you that love with you is totally different than it was with her dead H, that would be a different thing.

As far as your ex goes, I would walk with a great deal of caution. My dad went back and said similar things to my mother after their D and they were married for 25 years. Do I think he changed and saw his mistake? Yep. I think he did and he regrets what he did and he probably wishes he could undo it.

Now you're in a unique position. You could amicably end this engagement with Ann, which sounds like it would be the right thing to do for now and you could continue talking to your ex to find out what she's thinking. I would be thrilled to have my exW come back to me and say the things she's saying to you. I don't expect it, nor do I think I would necessarily respond to it, but I would welcome it.

Continue talking to her. Find out what she feels and thinks. If she owns up to all the things she did, that's a very positive thing. If she is willing to recommit and dive into things with a full committment to the MB principles, then you could very well have the marriage you wanted.

I don't believe in not forgiving. I believe it could be a great thing to do. Only you have been the one that has been through the gauntlet and could say one way or the other what you feel is right. Forgiveness is a choice you have to make and one which can be liberating, esepecially when you have a truly contrite exW asking for forgiveness.

I envy your position, but understand it will be a hard choice either way.

Good luck.

Gee

it is actually wonderful that life offers you so many options GG

I don't see anything to be upset about
you have not done anything immoral or illegal ... you might be emotionally ahead of yourself ... but I see that is coming to an end about now

so anywho ... enjoy making this decision

REALLY

life is good is it not?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I must have missed the thread where GG broke off the engagement with Ann.

you didn't miss anything believer... people here just are failing to look at the facts as presented by Georgia himself. They are refsuing to look at his own words earlier in this thread and are giving him a free ride to treat someone with no consideration and compassion. There are people on these boards that think that before M... dating is a free for all and that no act, no matter how hurtful it is to another, is fair and not immoral. They are dead wrong.

Sorry, slightly OT but I cannot help it.

This thread with its title "You're not going to believe it" was at the top of the page when I logged in. And the last poster was "Believer".

Just thought that rather nice.

So I waited until another poster added to the thread before mentioning it.

So, maybe now I'll read it and see what there is to believe...

With prayers,

Believer:

Georgia said this..to me this sounds like it was Ann's decision:

The man is ENGAGED, but "still looking". CREEPY.

And now it will be "spun" to be the fault of his fiancee.

Even creepier.

And what Georgia said FIRST was entirely different. As I said, this just looks like dressing up the pig.

Or putting a bow on a turd........

So, FGG, a question or three.

Have you ever actually been without a woman on your figurative arm for an appreciable length of time?

I know several guys like this, I hope you are not like them.

I mean, while separated from your xW and before your were even D you went through, I lost count, at least two women. And now Ann. It's a veritable revolving door soap opera at times.

Why do you need a constant female companion? Have you ever been on your own, meeting your own ENs? Try it for a while. It will be very good for you.

It may be that fewer people (women are people too) will be getting hurt for a while.

I ask this not to be mean, but to show you there is a better way. Become happy with yourself, then the other person (even when it's a woman) is a blessing.

With prayers,


PS: I have to say I don't want any of my sisters meeting you.

Space, FGG.

You will benefit from having some serious distance between you and female kind in general for a while. There are women who will benefit too.

Leave enough room between you and women for the holy spirit, as the dance chaperons used to say.

With prayers,

Quote from GG 2 weeks before his WW contacted him -

I will say that I continue to believe the MB principles are indeed valid going into M #2 and I encourage others to use these principles. I also am reading Love & Respect (recommended to me at one time) and am finding it to be a very good book, lot's of very practical insights.

To summarize, it is obvious that this M is going to be no picnic, but it is equally obvious that it is going to be a tremendous blessing. We are both willing to put the work into it, and there is no doubt she is a wonderful and godly woman. I am very, very fortunate to have her in my life.

Quote after WW talks to him for 3 hours -

"Jumping back in with xW scares me to death...but the outcome could be wonderful. She IS the love of my life..."

Aphelion, you said:



This is kind of off the topic of Georgia...

I'm trying to understand your thinking here because it applies to me/my young adult sons...

In hindsight, it probably would have been good BUT...my only time without my H since age 18 was during PLAN B and I HATED IT...

I went from the dorm to marriage to my H..from my parents' house to marriage...

How could I have arranged this differently?

Would you recommend for folks to hold off before marriage and spend sometime alone?

I have an OS who talked to me just yesterday about all of his friends getting married..been a groomsman a number of times latetly... and I told him that he was at that age. He has a long-term GF..she wants to get married..he is in love with her but doesn't want to live with her...

In your line of reasoning, should he break up with her to spend sometime alone without a woman before he gets married..he's ALWAYS had a GF since high school....

Really just wondering where you are going with this...

It's really fairly typical for men not to like being ALONE...Widowers tend to remarry soon after the passing of their wives after longterm marriages...

I'm a bit confused by this




I have to agree with Aphelion here. Time on FGG's own may be the best solution right now. Marriage with ANYONE right now doesn't seem fitting. FGG seems utterly confused and conflicted. I'm in Plan B now, and have no desire to move on with anyone else while I get my own head out of my [censored] and get my thoughts clear. I agree with Mimi, also, in that this SUX, but these are MB principles. I don't remember those principles including any sort of 'dating' while in Plan B, or prior to D. Mimi, did you do any dating while in Plan B, and if you were on your way to D, do you think it would be a good time to take on a new lover?

From what FGG has related in this thread, Ann sounds no closer to true commitment with open arms right now either, maybe it's a good time to THINK, to REALLY KNOW what you want. Can you really commit to something you MAY want, with either woman?

When Georgia posted this, I thought he was fooling himself. I told him so and he did not want to hear me. He went off and found out for himself, in my very, very humble opinion.

I believe that his wife is THE LOVE OF HIS LIFE. That's the way I feel about my FWH....

I think that there are some of us that feel this way and understand this and undoubtedly some of you do not...

It's probably the difference between those who have experienced LIFE ALONE vs. those of us who have not...

Or maybe some folks are more DEPENDENT than others for whatever reason...

Silent:

Long story...

I've followed Georgia for a long time...

I disagreed with his decision to D his wife...

I disagreed with his decision to date until after 2 years...

Georgia has done his own thing...

NO WAY..I didn't date..couldn't imagine it in my wildest dreams....

Mimi,

My H is the love of my life, hence Plan B for me, with neither him nor anyone else to hinder my healing process. I don't really believe that moving on with someone else, for me, will ever be like it was with WH. In fact, I know that it won't. That is what FGG is expereincing here.

Will I ever accept my WH back into my life. Yes, with slower baby steps than before. If FGG has already had R's with women, even prior to D, maybe he needs some time to figure out what he really wants, before even more women get hurt in his wake. There's really no reason to JUMP in to anything, is there? He's single, his WW is single, Ann is single. From what I see, Ann seems to be the only one really thinking, slowing things down so that all of this is not a blur.

Silent:

You and I are on the same wavelength..on the same page on this EXACTLY....

Georgia has NEVER been ALONE throughout this entire process...

Which made ME even question the R with Ann but alot of folks here supported it because he was DIVORCED...

But the DIVORCE happened because of his speediness at getting it...

Like I said before..this has been a LONG, LONG STORY...

I'm not a bit surprised by this outcome...

IMO, it was almost TOO PREDICTABLE...

The outcome actually REALLY FITS with MB PRINCIPLES...

I've got a lot 2 say, but someone's trying 2 drag me off 2 lunch.

See? I can hang people out there waiting for my posts just like FGG can! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

...only, probably nobody was really interested in what I may have had 2 say... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FOOD!

-ol' 2long

I get the feeling that some of the people on this site have started their holiday drinking a bit too early. Please stay off the roads!

Believer.... I like the bow on a turd! Very nice... and describes this whole thing perfectly!

GG how are you?

I read the ENTIRE post and i am in awe.

1. you got hurt, hurt bad .by now your XW.

2. You got engaged to Ann

3. You told sons and XW (really doesnt matter who told who..........she heard)

4. Sons seems indifferent but accept the facts.

5. XWW got hold of you and you both spoke for 3 hours (how did she get a hold of you?)

6. XW pours out her heart.

7. You are now looking at your options and "notices" that Ann isnt comitted to the relationship.

8. In your heart of hearts you would like things to work out with your XWW.

Is there anything wrong with the above?

Will Ann get hurt?

Will XWW "get" you back?

only God knows how this will unfold.

Just a thought.........Us BS being traumatized by an A in our lives have to be careful with how we treat other human beings. We know the hurt and pain of rejection or being placed in the "second best category".

understanding this firsthand,should cause us never to visit this "emotional murder" upon another.

Are you doing this to others? as mimi said to me......focus on becoming a better person....become stronger for it.

be very careful with the decisions you make G.G. be careful how you play with other people hearts.

ol 2Long!!!!!!!!!!hello!

i missed ya!

OK...

It is becoming tempting to say something UGLY..but I am holding back...

BTW, I don't drink... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mimi,

It’s so simple it’s almost impossible for a thumb-tied typist like me to explain.

Maybe you answered your own question.

“In hindsight, it probably would have been good BUT...my only time without my H since age 18 was during PLAN B and I HATED IT...”

IMO, it would have been good.

I hated Plan B too. But I knew I could do it. I knew I would be better than fine whatever happened in the end because I had been on my own for years before I met FWW.

I did not feel a need to discount my heart. I did not feel a need to risk my health to get her back. I was going to be OK because I had always been OK.

And I know I will be better than OK no matter what because, even though I like women, I now remember that I do not need one. I love my W, but I will thrive however this turns out. I know this because I remember that I lived for years on my own, and not as a couple, before I met her.

I know how to meet my own ENs. (This is the WS issue at its core, don’t you think?)

I was married for 20 years before D-day 2, and I almost forgot the above. But I have it back now. I know how to make myself happy and I don’t have to be a couple to do it.


To bring this back to FGG, and to have fun talking about him in the third person, FGG seems to need to be with a woman, no matter what. Look back on his story and tell me when, even before the moved out of his house, tell me when he was not already dating or flirting or making some moves or plans for moves on some woman.

FGG needs to find himself, his own ENs. He does not need to find a woman.

OTOH, I agree with you, his xW is indeed the love of his life. He imprinted on her. He should see where she is willing to go with these feelers. He should set the bar high and he should not discount his heart. But he should be willing to negotiate.

My impression is FGG has been SFing with several women, even before his D. I don’t think his xW has had SF with anyone else, yet.

She had an EA, possibly, but it always looked to me more like a mental confusion of some sort. A midlife crisis with OM(s) as the intellectual distractions. A hobby almost.

Only FGG has had the PA(s). He does not have a whole lot of room to maneuver, IMO.

With prayers,


2long, you old hound dog. Check your mail.

This is MB - we should all be supporting marriages, and honorable behavior. No matter how it is dressed up, (GG's WW is his soulmate, his true love, they shouldn't have gotten divorced, he wants his family), it is STILL a pig.

The man is engaged, and looking at other possibilities. Like some of the oldtimers here say - his future is bright, with all kinds of options.

He needs to tell Ann IMMEDIATELY that the engagement is OFF, as the adulteress is the love of his life. But of course then she may change her mind, knowing the truth, and the adulteress may disappear again too.

Aphelion,

You nailed that one; that is exactly what I meant when I said that I would not be moving on with anyone until I extracted MY head out of my own [censored]. I believe in finding myself amongst the ruins before pulling someone in here with me. My sister is a lot like FGG; she can't go it alone; when she is alone, she is miserable or a mess. When she IS with someone, she is miserable or she is a mess, and the people she chooses to spend time with are either slugs or blood-suckers. I've tried to talk to her about finding herself, but she keeps looking into the eyes of someone else to see her reflection...

I do.

GG has always been married though, and this part of a process I think for BS's newly divorced after a very long term marriage starting at a very young age.

It seems common and even somewhat required before settling down and learning how to just "be", or just be still as 2long says.

Aphelion:

I really appreciate your post to me. I think you've got it right. I probably SHOULD have waited and learned to meet my own ENs..but I don't see how that could have happened. I don't see how that can happen with my son... for example..without the risk of him breaking up with his girlfriend. He has kept his own place, though, and spends time alone which is different from what I did. From the beginning of our dating years, my H and I spent most of our time together. I never had the opportunity to LEARN those ALONE skills during my ADULTHOOD.

As you say, Weaver, that's a lot of what Georgia is struggling with, I think. So is Ann...for so many, many years being part of a couple....

I like what you are saying, Weaver.."learning to be still and to just be"...

I think I'm going to PRACTICE that more and more..

THANKS!!!

Learning to be alone can be just as hard as learning to be a couple.

I agree with the others about always being careful to not hurt anyone being of the utmost and biggest responsibility, but we are responsible for our own hearts as are the people we date, and sometimes being alone for too long can be just as bad as not being alone for long enough.

They say most WS's eventually want to come back, it could take two years, it could take seven and the BS is the biggest threat to the marriage because they lose their love and move on sometimes too soon.

But who is to know, and who can say the BS should wait?

It seems to me the important thing is to be as reasonably sure as you can be that you are over your ex and will never want to go back before you start dating again to avoid any possible broken hearts...but who can really know for sure this has even really occured when it seemed there was no hope at all?

I wouldn't want to be in a position of having to choose between two people who loved me though, that seems like a very unhappy place to be.

Mimi,

I love reading your stuff! You are so open, and sincere, and passionate about life and what you believe in. I love that about you, and always wanted to tell you!

GG;
I would never marry someone who described ANOTHER WOMAN as the "love of his life". Does Ann know this?

What happened to the Rule of Protection? You are not protecting your relationship with Ann. IMO, this conversation with your XW should never have happened.

One thing that I have come to realize, while watching my dad mourn the loss of my mother for 7 years now, is that she was the love of his life. My mother is gone, and if my father chose to move on with someone else, he would still feel that she was the love of his life.

I know that these two situations are not EXACTLY the same, but the love is. My father could move on, but he chooses not to because HE is not ready. My dad says that he misses companionship, but I don't think he is ready for the next step, letting go of the past, ACCEPTANCE.



IMO, FGG should have never gotten engaged to Ann fully well knowing that he may still WANT to work on things with his WW. I know that it is hard to be alone, and that taking a relationship slowly can be tough, but FGG has done neither, with his wife or Ann, respectively. Now, he is 'torn between two lovers'. He has not accepted that his R with WW is over, otherwise, none of this thread would be happening...

Ah, the difference between loneliness and soli2de!

"Alone" doesn't cover the options adequately. Even now, though we're "in recovery" whatever that's supposed 2 be, I absolultely CHERISH every moment I have 2 myself. So long as I'm not being selfish, but instead nur2ring my individuality somehow (so I can nur2re my R with my W or my Rs with my kids), I'm being productive for all in the long haul.

NC007: You haven't been here all that long, so you aren't aware that there are a few very important steps in your list of things that FGG's been through that are relevant 2 his current dilemma - not the least of which is that he dated before he was DV'd, and he's had 3 relationships since separating from his W.

People will always be people, though. I'm sure that many religious people here - FGG in particular, perhaps - might be surprised 2 hear an "atheologist" like myself talk like this, but this is what I firmly believe about si2ations like this:

All the players go through exactly what they need 2 go through in order 2 grow as individuals. That includes FGG, certainly, as well as Ann, Lynn, the other chick who's name I can't recall at the moment, most definitely xMrsFGG, and all the kids, grandkids, cats and dogs, birds, fish, ponds, etc...

Emotional pain in these si2ations (and thus hurt) is a choice. Being able 2 step back and view this whole story from an outside perspective makes recognizing that fact pretty easy, particularly for those of us who are frankly sick and tired of the "drama-fests" we so often see on these infidelity boards.

But I submit 2 you all that the choice is one that each of these individuals has had 2 make, probably subconsciously, perhaps "directed" from a higher plane, in order 2 gain a little wisdom before they vie for the chance 2 claim their trophy as "best daisy-pusher in the bone orchard".

I think I've always felt some sort of empathy for xMrsFGG's "plight", perhaps because in many ways her EA and her insistence that she be allowed 2 have such extramarital relationships is harmless, is so similar 2 my own W's A (edited 2 finish this sentence). She may have only just realized how selfish that was for all those years. No way 2 know for sure, but from personal experience and from being on these sometimes life-saving, sometimes-annoying boards for so long now, I suspect that the fog may be breaking for good, finally.

I don't think there's anything more wonderful than watching a FWS come out of the fog. Even if the evidence is fleeting and sporadic, it's a sight 2 behold. And a fully-recovered FWS? Some of them have been true godsends (sorry about the god stuff, me being an atheologist and all...) 2 newbies, or even oldbies, on these boards.

Remember Hope4future? I can think of few FWWs who've graced our boards with finer wisdom from her own painful experience in the nearly 5 years I've been here.

Maybe MrsFGG will be like that someday. She's got the experience. Only time will tell if she chooses 2 2rn it in2 wisdom.

-ol' 2long

FGG, despite the length of this thread, there are a few facts I'm still unclear on:

1) Are you still engaged to Ann?
2) Does she wear your ring, or did she give it back to you?
3) Does she till consider you as pledged to her?
4) What committment have you made to her, that she is still entitled to believe in?
4) Have you told her you talked with your xW? Would she expect you to tell her that?

Frankly, I'm not a bit interested in your xW's call, or desires or 'awakening'. I'm certainly not interested in the hearts and flowers aspect of either 'romance'. I'm concerned about your own integrity, and your own ability to hold to committments you have made, because ultimately that's where your self-worth lies.

It's a WS trick to change the rules of engagement (sic) in order to accommodate temptation. Deciding that 'it's probably falling apart anyway' is a concept we're all too familiar with here. Fog is not just a WS trap.

We're also familiar with a schism in attitude to pre-marital committments; some think anything is fair game as long as the Big Vow has not been made, and some think a person's worth is measured by their willingness to hold to committments whatever the situation. You're going to get both attitudes here. What is your view? Where are the lines of your integrity drawn?

TA

Good post, 2long.

FGG
I think that before any reconcilliation your XW would still have to do all the things necessary to convince you of her sincerity. You heard some remorse in the phone conversation. Let's hope she can do the rest of the work necessary.

Beware of any reconciliation over the holidays....it could be just for the nostalgia of the holidays. It does still sound like a lot of 'me' still on her part. OM and future OM would still need to be covered....you know all this stuff.

It would have been best to wait the two years as most suggested...but all that is water over the bridge...you can learn from it and others can hopefully learn from your mistakes.

Mimi was right on a lot of it, but once you were DV'd...I thought it best to be positive and hopeful that things would work out with Ann and you seemed willing to commit to making it work. You still could but I really understand the history with your XW...my H and I have the same.

Many wouldn't have believed that my H would have changed his adulterous ways...but he did finially do his about face. We are still doing great together. Most would have said to DV him and move on....our sitch took much longer that 2 yrs.

Wow. Look at what I have been missing these past couple of days.

I am not going to try to react to everything that was posted here – but I am shocked at something Believer said. That GG is engaged and out looking for someone else? B – I think you know better than that. He wasn’t sniffing around. The reality is that affairs do end – eventually. And when they do – sometimes the BS has “moved on”, built a new life (many times, a better life). Almost always the WS will make an effort to reconcile. None of this is a surprise. GG “moved on”, his wife finally woke up (maybe), and calls him up. I am sure that GG never thought he would even consider “getting back together with her”. But when you hear that voice, and you think about how much your family is struggling, and how much the kids would appreciate having their parents together, a little part of your heart wonders if maybe, just maybe……..

None of this surprises me.

GG – this isn’t over. The fat lady isn’t even warming up her voice yet.

It is possible that through all of this, you may be able to reconcile with your ex – perhaps build a new relationship with her. It is also possible that your ex’s breakthrough may be temporary – it may be that you go through this time just to truly experience every stage of this development, so that you can truly build a new life with Ann, or someone else, yet un-named!

Ok – my story – again.

About 6 months after my D, my ex called to say he was no longer living with OW#1, and that she had him served with a restraining order, while he was at work. Not because he hurt her – she had the restraining order served because she was afraid he would stalk her after they split up. He was devastated. He was saying things like “how could she do this to me – I have lost everything”. Etc. I simply said “what about me? I lost my family”. He finally showed remorse. He sobbed and said, “I know, and I am so sorry. What can I do for you? I am so, so sorry”. Our conversations continued for about a week. We decided to start “dating”. We went to dinner a couple of times; he even fixed dinner for YS and I at his apartment. I kept thinking, “This is very awkward.” I wanted to like him again – I wanted my sons to have their mom and dad together again. I wanted things to work out. But I couldn’t stop thinking about how easy it was to throw me away. About the times when he said “I never really loved you these past 18 years. I just kept trying to make myself love you, but it never really happened, and now I have a chance to be happy, so I am taking it”. But I hung in there. We dated. We spoke by phone. After a couple of weeks, I started to like him again, a little. I started to see that it was possible to grow my feelings for him. That our family could be restored. I had a serious conversation with him. I said that I had few boundaries that I would NOT budge on. #1.No more porn – none – ever again. He agreed. He said “I just didn’t understand how much it bothered you” #2 counseling. First, him, by himself. Later, the two of us together. He agreed. #3 no more relationship with other women. No more “oh, she is just a friend” or, “she and her H are having problems, and I was helping her” none of that. We would have friendships with couples, as a couple. He would have friendships with men – but no more women, he couldn’t handle it. He agreed.
So I started to put my hope into the R. After a week I said, “Do you have an appointment for counseling yet.” No. After another week, I asked again, still no. I said, “I thought you were going to get into counseling” at that point he said “I don’t think I need it anymore. I am over my break up with OW#1” I said “uh…you don’t need counseling to get over your break up from a 1 year R. You need counseling to understand how you could abandon your wife of 18 years”. It was about this time that I realized he was getting a lot of phones calls on his cell, when he was out with me, and excusing himself to talk. He was talking to other women he had met. I said, “Uh….you are stilling talking to other women. Are you committed to us or not”. That was when I heard the famous line “I just need to keep my options open”. He said that he wanted to be with me, and he wanted things to work out, but he just needed to keep his options open, just in case things did not work out with me. I told him that apparently he did not see me as someone special, worthy of his time and effort. He saw me as just another single woman, available to date him. I asked him to please take me off his list of available women, because I was no longer an option for him. He just said “ok”. That was it.

From that day forward I knew I could truly go forward, build a new life, and make it what ever I wanted it to be. 6 months later I met my new H. I am so thankful for the M I have now!!! But that short attempt at reconciliation has been part of my healing. It was the final chapter that helped me to move forward.

You may end up back with your Ex. I don’t know. If she is genuinely repentant, and not just using you as one of the available single men in her life, then you guys have a great chance to build a new life. I hope so. If not, then this will still be a helpful chapter for you. I also caution you that you truly do not know what will happen with Ann yet. Is she looking for a clone of her deceased H? Who knows for sure? She is still learning, just as you are. I do think you are right to realize that it would be difficult for you to move there – or for her to move to GA. It sounds fun and romantic on the outside – but the reality is that someone is going to miss their son or daughters birthday party. Someone will miss seeing a grand child’s T-ball games. Either she will miss hers – or you will miss your future grand kids. Even if she turns out to be the love of your life – that geographic distance will be VERY hard on your M. And, as we all know, M is all ready tough enough!!!

Frankly – I would make any sudden moves just yet. Let a little time go by. Be open, and honest, but don’t go shopping for homes with your Ex just yet. And I would NOT tell the boys yet! Don’t get their hopes up yet.

WOF -

The man is engaged. He IS open to other options - he stated that earlier. It makes no difference to me what he does, but Ann deserves to know the truth of her situation.

GG has had the time now to be honest with his fiancee, and if he has, my apologies to him and all of you.

EXACTLY... very well said.

MEDC,

I am puzzled by your posts. Your anger is very evident. What do you want GG to do? What you want? What his exW wants? What Ann wants? What he wants? What is right which may be none of the options listed so far?

GG is going to do what he decides to do for reasons you or I cannot know and will not know. So while I understand you disapprove of him talking with his exW, they do share children and if nothing comes of this other than exW and he can be in the same room with the kids that would be great.

I won't and don't pretend to really know the situation with Ann. She seems like a nice lady but I have less chance of reading her mind that GG does, and certainly you cannot either.

So again where are you going with this?

I look forward to hearing your point.

JL

I am puzzled by your confusion... my words are very simple and straight froward. I really don't care what he does as far as his ex or Ann goes... what I do care about is that he treat people with the respect they deserve. If you read his intitial stated reason as to why he can't marry Ann... my angst at him is readily understandable... he is treating Ann with a disrespect similar to what a WS does to a BS.
I hope they have a good relationship for the kids sake. I have not advocated otherwise. But I do think he owes Ann a lot more than he has given her. Perhaps that will clear it up for you... if not... check with Believer since she also seems to follow the same logic.




and this from Noodle about sums up my feelings

"Perhaps that will clear it up for you... if not... check with Believer since she also seems to follow the same logic."

MEDC - Scary, isn't it? I remember you and I were on exact opposite sides on some issue - forget what it was. But you are absolutely right on this one.

The rest of the board (with a few exceptions) is in la-la land - ie: even though GG is ENGAGED, he needs to do what feels best.

very scary!

Maybe it is coming through the computer by osmosis!

We are all ALIENS and you two are the only HUMANS left!!

At least the world is now safe from STDS!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have been catching up on this thread and I have very mixed emotions. I know how it feels when the person who has known you best for years appears to want to make it all better again. It is hard to turn your back on a long history with someone. You want so much to believe that it can all be fixed. In fact, that is exactly why I fought so hard to save my M - I wasn't ready to build a new history with someone else. However, I agree that it is wrong to even consider a reconciliation when you are committed elsewhere. He is, in fact, starting an EA with his EW. And I am sure Georgia knows as I do how painful it is to discover any A even if it is with his EW. I would never want to inflict that kind of pain on another (maybe the OW). Tread carefully, Georgia. Make sure she is sincere before you make any decisions. And be kind to Ann.

My prayers are with you.

Nkay

"We are all ALIENS and you two are the only HUMANS left!!

At least the world is now safe from STDS!!!"

Gosh that hurt Mimi. I have always respected you for hanging in here and helping so many people.

I DO think lots of folks on the board are in lala land. GG is engaged. Ann lost her husband a few years ago, and now another member of her family.

I think she has been wanting to take it slow because GG is obviously not ready to commit. But he has promised to marry her. They are waiting for her children to accept the marriage. He has met her parents. They have discussed where to live, and looked at apartments.

It makes me very sad that folks here don't see anything wrong with his actions.

Me too. I'm amazed you would throw a good woman under a bus for a serial cheater. You're right - I can't believe it.

There's actually a lot of people who rubbished the idea that you should remain single for 1 year of every 5 years married - Harley says this. Not only are you emotionally unwell after a divorce, this type of situation is exactly what can happen. There are a lot of people on MB who should heed this as a salutory warning.

oh I think GG's been plenty dumb so far
but not morally reprehensible
he's not a man who knows what he wants

flighty/fickle/impulsive

nothing new here
he's not changed much

but
he's not evil

capriciousness is not criminal

and such a person is usually consistent in his inconsistency <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep

let this be an example of what not to do

anyone who can fall in love really fast

propose marriage very quickly

can unfall & unpropose just as quickly

KWIM?

if it seems too good to be true ... consult your mother

LOL

Pep

no, of course not... since he had committed to another woman it was okay to have that type of conversation with his ex.... nothing morally wrong with that now is there. Perhaps you all are sharing a kool aid cup with Mimi on this one.

LOL MEDC

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep -

LOL???????

Should we really bow out of the moral implications by posting what you did -

Quote -

Gee

it is actually wonderful that life offers you so many options GG

I don't see anything to be upset about
you have not done anything immoral or illegal ... you might be emotionally ahead of yourself ... but I see that is coming to an end about now

so anywho ... enjoy making this decision

REALLY

life is good is it not?

Pep

STD's.... Mimi... are you really sure YOU want to discuss STD's???????

I was REALLY just kidding in reference to the ALIENS.

I thought you guys were kidding, too.

I've made it clear many times to Georgia about the things that I think that he is doing WRONG.

IMO, this is not the worst thing that he has done.


Sorry. I certainly wouldn't want to HURT you, BELIEVER.

I am just not upset by this ... it is rather expected in my opinion

the "engagement" had temporary written all over it

it does not bother me that you find it so upsetting ... but for now, I remain frosty man, frosty

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I too Mimi, am having a difficult time discerning friendly joking fun from serious insult tossing ....

so I prefer to stay frosty ....

and just speak my piece my way

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yeah hunny

LOL the "kool aid" remark he made

it made me laff

Pep

I don't like KOOLAID...

Anybody for Diet Green Tea..Citrus Flavor???

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In other words, LIFE'S TOO SERIOUS..NOT TO HAVE FUN!!!

kool aid leaves a red mustache

Or green..or blue..or even orange..depending on the flavor...

A three hour discussion and not once did GG ask if the xW was still in contact with the OM?

GG, were you too scared of her answer and didn't want the fantasy of getting back with your XW to end?

she is drinking my Lipton diet green tea with citrus!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> A woman of good taste! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

okay folks...I'm here..live and in Memphis.

Let me go back and read the posts....I'll be back.

GG,

U may not like what you read. Remember we come to various conclusions based on our experiences, POV and what you wrote.

If this were another person writing the same what would you think?

Step out of your shell and take a look at it from another perspective.

Don't let it hurt you, instead look at what you can learn from all those posts.

Then, go get some rest. Something tells me you got some soul searching t/d.

G'nite. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

My goodness...I had no idea I had generated such controversy.

Again, what I am going to do right now is NOTHING! I have not talked to Ann since Friday night, I likely will talk to her sometime tomorrow.

There are way too many ? being asked here for me to try and address them all. I am troubled by the "out looking" accusation and don't understand it., really.

And...I will say that it is obvious to even me that I have made some stupid, stupid choices. I can offer evidence of the traps that a BS can fall into.

And...to even say that I have "options" I think may not reflect reality. yes, we are still engaged...but likely only because we both agreed to not have any serious discussions while she was dealing with a death and marriage concurrently. Not really a time to plan the rest of your life...

I will add this....

During the last discussion that we had, she told me that she just needs some time and "please don't give up on me".

I do not agree with the outlook that I hurt folks (women)with impunity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

And...how do you know when you are "over" xW When she calls and repents...do you just say "sorry...too late and hang up on her? I doubt any of you here have ever gotten to that point...

Again...it seems to me that WOF has the history that most closely resembles mine. And...WOF..it certainly crosses my mind as I project what a recovery with xW would really look like. Even in the discussion the other night, I heard elements of "justification"...(Well...he was depressed and he needed a friend...blah ...blah...blah), but for the first time ever intermingled with "I know how wrong that was to have such an R with another man and how much I hurt you").

So...I will go back and reread and restudy the thoughts put forth her. I am so tired I am about to fall over. The next time (if there is a next time), I'm flying...

Georgia

MEDC,

You said
Well, what puzzles me is that he did NOT ask for your advice nor anyone else which is why I have NOT told him what I thought of the situation. Yet, you seem angry and adament that he follow YOUR advice and take YOUR opinions as truth. That is what is confusing me.

As for Ann, they are engaged NOT married. Yes, he should talk with her, but he never mentioned that he would not. Yes, he should do many things in my opinion but he probably will not. It is NOT worth getting heated over.

Or as Pep. says, it is time for FROSTY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What is clear is that right now GG doesn't know what he wants or should do. And apparently this is true of Ann and his exW.

So you see my confusion is about your attitude not what you said. I was hoping that perhaps I missed something but apparently I did not.

God Bless,

JL

I think this situation clearly reflects the FAR-REACHING nature of our choices and decisions..both GOOD and BAD...

Georgia has been open about his mistakes..well, lately he has been open (some of us remember and know about the PA).....

I think that's taken lots of courage...

I don't think he's alone in having done things that he is not proud of...

If you read back through MY NOVEL on here, I made lots and lots of goofups and mistakes and have done many things through this that I wouldn't dare to share here or anywhere else....

I think this is a case of HUMAN NATURE and the DESTRUCTIVENESS OF AFFAIRS..which, as I said before, is FAR-REACHING....

Georgia, I think you remain a GOOD SOUL out here trying to make in this world like the rest of us....

None of us are PERFECT..

WE FALL DOWN BUT WE GET UP....

In honor of Pep and JL-my sages and mentors:

"CHILL" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

With all due respect... if you come to a forum and publically post something.... you are bound to get opinion and advice.

I didn't ask for your opinion (but always welcome it) and yet here you are offering it. Wow... amazing how that happens huh.

And ENGAGED means committed in my opinion. If it doesn't in yours... well, that's your opinion... and now I know it.

What is apparent is that he should have been more loyal to his fiance than he showed. That is the MOST apparent thing right now.

Thanks for sharing your views.

Good morning...

I've still not heard from Ann. I do know she is back.

BTW...I have shared with my pastor all (ALL) details (which he already knew) and mentioned that will definitely be hurtful should there be a recovery. His words "there's enough sin on both sides to around".

And...by the way...I do agree that by posting here I am implying solicitation of opinions....so I have no problem with the offering of same.

I do have a problem with folks offering opinion as fact and then dismissing those who disagree with them rather than respectfully dialoging.

Those who pray...pray that I will not make any more stupid, selfish choices and have the wisdom to know.

Thanks -

Georgia

Its funny you mention this, because this is exactly what I did. My EX tried to come back even BEFORE the divorce.....but, it was way too late for me. I didnt love her anymore......heck, I didnt even LIKE her by this time.

Im remarried and have not ONCE questioned my decision. My EX is still the same and has not improved herself at all. I would be miserable and our marriage more than likely would have ended anyhow. My EX used to want to be married, the next day, wanted freedom, then wanted to be married, then freedom. She saw multiple guys on me, and the last time she wanted out and had a married b/f on the side, I threw in the towel. I no longer allowed myself to be hurt and be a doormat to a selfish person.

StartinOver did just that.....StartedOver.

In my prayers, Georgia....

Again I say, though, you are ONLY HUMAN....

Could Ann possibly be reading this? Maybe that's why she hasn't called... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Just catching up this morning - a couple of pages back, Pep made this comment, and I agree with it 100%.
I totally expected soemthing like this. GG jumped too fast. And Ann jumped in too fast as well. And now they both are taking a step back. totally preditctable. None of this is over yet.

I have a question, why all this conversation with your pastor? I understand people often turn towards their pastors for all sorts of advice, and at times, I agree with it. However, pastor's are generally not very well trained when dealing with matters like this. Sure, they have a ton of exposure to it, but it doesn't make them qualified to handle the situation. They surely can give you biblical advice, and what their interpretations are, but, I think your counsel should be reconsidered. But, maybe your pastor is also just your close friend, and then, that is a whole different ball of wax, as then, you may just be discussing it with him more in a friendly fashion than what I am interpreting your conversations to be.

On a different note, what do you want? You stated you suspect you and your ex will get back together. Is that what you want? Speaking from the perspective of a BH, it is much harder than we suspect, this whole recovery process. I can't say I'd honestly recommend it to very many couples, unless I saw genuine remorse from the WS. Genuine remorse doesn't mean continuous groveling (although a certain amount is probably a good thing for a shaken, beat down BS to witness)... it means that they accept their blame for what they did. I get very defensive about any WS that comes around and says, well they did this or that and the other thing.... because, well, guess what, the BS is gonna screw up again. How will the fws deal with it then? Same old same old... justification for an affair equates into an unrepentant heart, imo.

I would choose what you want here. If you want your exw back, then, go get her. If you are undecided, then I would let Ann know that you still have unadressed feeling for your exw, and that more than putting your relationship on hold with her may be needed. It sounds like she is probably feeling likewise, needed more than just a 'hold'.

-hang in there

FGG,

"Those who pray...pray that I will not make any more stupid, selfish choices and have the wisdom to know."

Will do. Already doing. Gladly.


You know FGG, it's not nearly as much fun posting directly to you as talking about you as if you are not here on your own thread. lol.

Some recommendations? (They're free, take two!):

1. Tell the whole truth to both women involved, xW and Ann. The whole unadulterated truth about everything since day 1. This is for you as much as for them.

2. If you want to see up front how serious xW is about the possibility of reconciliation, have her talk to the MB counseling center for a few sessions. Then get a recommendation as to how to proceed from them. Reconciliation will be harder than the D was.

3. Stay away from all women for about 2 years if reconciliation with xW comes off the table.

You may not be hurting women intentionally, but you are just the same. What road is it that is paved with good intentions, FGG?


With prayers,

Horribly sad situation, GG... mostly for Ann... and I feel for you and your ex, too. I will say a prayer for you, as you requested.

Sadly, I know a little something about your heart's pain... because I jumped (rebounded) into another relationship and marriage after my first (20-year) marriage ended. I didn't heal, I didn't grieve, and I suffered for the first five years of my second marriage because of it.

I also believe my H suffered *because of my situation* with my ex-H... who became someone I didn't expect after the divorce. He was remorseful, he was sorrowful, he wanted to make me understand how terribly he felt for his actions -- and I wanted to say the same to him -- to have some closure -- and seriously, he and I had a few tearful visits making amends. I know that wasn't comfortable for my H to know (he did not have the same situation with his ex, so it was difficult for him to understand, as well.) Plus, my ex was making rumblings about wanting me back. It was very hard to tell my current H this, but I did, because I believe in the concept of Radical Honesty (as they used to call it around here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Like Aph, I recommend:


I couldn't agree with this more.

I would also caution you to REALLY think about this idea of your ex being the love of your life. She may well BE... and I don't discount that possibility AT ALL. But also, it may be that you are so touched by the glimpse of "the old her" that you see, that you aren't seeing her for who she truly is TODAY.

All that said, I only wish to encourage you to TELL THE TRUTH to YOURSELF first, then to Ann, and finally to your ex...

... but only once you truly understand WHAT THE TRUTH IS ...

Ann deserves to know about your confusion -- I'm not so sure you should be sharing that with your ex at this time, though -- you might give her false hope that isn't truly there once your emotional-dust settles. Really, think about this...

Good evening...

I am home and unpacked. I could have kissed that "Welcome to Georgia" sign when I passed it. I carefully planned my entry into Georgia to arrive in Atlanta at 5:30 PM so me and a couple of hundred thousand of my closest friends could park on I-20.

I am sticking with the "do absolutely nothing" advice for right now. This is very, very serious business....not only for me...and not even for Ann and exW..but for 2 families as well.

Ann's family is totally devoid of "older men". Both SIL's Dads are deceased...all granddads deceased. I have gotten close to the grandkids..they have gotten close to me. I have come to like the SIL's & D's...and vice versa.

Ann and I did talk for a while this afternoon. We have agreed that we are taking our relationship back to the "friend" level and get to know each other better. We discussed the ring...she said she'd like to just hold onto it and we'll decide later what to do about it when we decide where our relationship is going.

I really need time to think, pray, contemplate...where this is all heading. I know that I stated earlier that I couldn't marry Ann if xW is wanting to get back together. I'm not so sure I had given that enough consideration before saying it. What if this xW call was a one-time emotional fluke due to her mom now having cancer...holidays upon us...etc. I PURPOSEFULLY didn't ask aout OM...as I wasn't sure what I would say pending her response.

I know that if I tell Ann that xW called and wants all forgiven , she is the kind of lady who will remove herself from the picture so that I can pursue getting back with my xW. I'm not sure I'm ready for that...do you (y'all) think from the info that I know at this point that would be the right thing to do RIGHT NOW????

Bed for me...

I wish all of my friends a happy day to give thanks tomorrow...and we do (even in the difficult times) have much to be thankful for...

Yikes...

This officially crossed the line of ethical behavior for me.

GG...Ann is a big girl...if that information would cause her to remove herself from the equation that's her decision no matter what you are ready for. This is some pretty relevent information to NOT be sharing with the woman who is planning a future with you.

This sounds creepily like having Ann in your back pocket in case things don't work out with your wife.

That is OK with me as long as she knows and agrees to that situation but..ya know..this really doesn't seem on the up and up.

I realize that you have agreed to take things back to a "friend" level [although she is not ready to return the ring which speaks volumes to me personally that she has an expectation and I bet you 20 dolars that expectation doesn't include long reconciliatory chats with your ex wife] but you are not really giving her the whole picture and frankly I don't think I could go from friends..to engaged..to friends again. There are just too many heartstrings involved.

What is stopping you from just SAYING "Ann...my ex wife is back in the picture..while you were away she called me and we have been talking reconciliation"

Why does it have to be about something else? Why do you need it to NOT be because your ex called? It's very clear that all plans were go until then regardless of some misgivings.

This is clear in your previous posts and is clearly implied in your first post on this thread.

Hi Georgia,

I came upon this accident as the tow-trucks were fixin' to drag away the wreckage....

No. That's not it exactly, but I missed the action.

Georgia, You're a good guy. I can imagine what you're going through.

I will suggest that you go look up my thread and read some of the things my ex said to try to get me back - and remember now that she is married to the OM and 5 months pregnant. She was saying those things about getting back together even after she was married to OM (which I didn't know). Then after she told me about that - was promising to divorce him - but that didn't go through for some reason - and a month or two later I learned that she is pregnant too.

So, from my experience, my ex-wife could say all those things apparently while saying (and doing) entirely incompatible things with OM.

Yours could too. .... and it sounded so sincere...

Look at what your ex does, and not what she says. Don't give up a good thing in exchange for a lie. Last Easter, my ex was over here coloring eggs, and talking as if it was all just a matter of time and we would be back together. But did anything really change? I don't think so. Certainly she had not written OM into history.

If you're going to consider your ex, you're going to go back into investigation mode - and that is not any fun.

Time is on your side. Soon enough it will be clearer.

My prayers are with you.

-AD

I haven't been reading lately so I missed this thread. But I'm not surprised.


We are on Marriagebuilders and supposedly we believe in Dr. Harley's theories and knowledge. Dr. Harley ALWAYS says that you should wait 2 years befor STARTING a new relationship, and even specifically recommends waiting TWO years AFTER the divorce. I've heard this countless times on his radio show. He tells people who have a WS that they may HAVE TO DIVORCE because the affair doesn't seem to be going to end but that they should wait for 2 years after the divorce BEFORE giving up on their spouses, all in defense of a marriage.

So FGG, you are confirming Dr. Harley's knowledge and advice. Your story is the "evidence". Unfortunately having the knowledge, you didn't accept it.

I feel sorry for you, your WW, Ann and all the others involved. I will pray for all of you.

On the other hand, this is another ray of hope for those of us still in plan B! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And another reason to trust Dr. H.

Thank you for being so sincere about your situation. It is very helpful for some of us and I hope you continue to post.

BTW, it's me cc46! I had to change names because the old one doesn't let me post!

Can you even hear your own words? You are keeping Ann around with deception... and you are doing it as a just in case! Very dishonorable on your part... and frankly, at this point it can be considered nothing less than an intentional infliction of harm on Ann. She deserves the truth. Have you learned nothing about the damage that lies can cause?

For all of you that have stood up for this "man" on this thread... please put yourself in Ann's place now and ask how you would feel if your fiance acted this way... and how you would feel if your "friend" acted this way towards you. And Georgia... friends wish each other well and do not have to lie in order to keep one another around... I don't know what you and Ann are at this point, but it isn't friends. Sounds more like a parachute!

Wow! The WHOLE STATE went 2 all the trouble to post a sign welcoming YOU home!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And then they all showed up 2 escort you in2 town? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What a bunch of nice folks!



I agree with Appy's suggestion. FGG, are you ready 2 burn that CA card yet? The fire's all stoked up at GC's. Come on bye and toss that puppy in!

-ol' 2long

GG, you are definately not ready for marriage with anyone. Ann needs full disclosure.

I completely agree with noodle. Completely.

PLEASE be honest with Ann, GG. And are you sure that she agreed to be "just friends" for now? What exactly does that MEAN, anyway? If you both were 'in love' enough to get engaged (with a ring, even)... how could you both just go back to being friends so quickly? I guess I just don't understand.

I'll repeat my last post (now that GG is here, Aphelion) -

"The man is engaged. He IS open to other options - he stated that earlier. It makes no difference to me what he does, but Ann deserves to know the truth of her situation.

GG has had the time now to be honest with his fiancee, and if he has, my apologies to him and all of you"

Georgia:

We have told you over and over what we think.

The question is, are you going to LISTEN to us this time.

Of course, you need to tell Ann the HONEST TO GOODNESS FULL TRUTH. Right this minute... and then let her make her own decision about what she chooses to do with her life..based on THE TRUTH.

Holding back from her..for whatever reason..is being DISHONEST and even DECEITFUL.

Exactly!!!!

WHAT mimi and MEDC agreeing ! am i in the right place?

look GG its your call. but just a POV.........was this what your XW did to you?...held back?

dont become what you most hate.deceitfulness.

My WW went to her OM and the (in her words) bacame inflamed "YUCK!"

here is the tragic thing......OM went thru just what i am going thru now 15 years ago. He was devastated when he ran into WW (rebound girl).

They had a intense love(?) and later she became a christian, she asked him to join her, he refused and they called it a day. met her 4 years after we courted for 2 then got married.

Now he is back, fishing.........you know what hurts the most? He knows the pain of betrayal, yet he perpetuates it.

don't do the same.

Yes...I've had to really think about this..contemplate it. I know you are all right...what kind of a relationship would I be wanting if I keep secrets from Ann? I never, never kept secrets from xW. And...I don't want to become the dog that I seem to have the propensity to become with such ease....

I have been e-mailing a good friend of mine. He worked for me as an engineer for 5 years, then went into the ministry. He is currently serving as a chaplain in Afghanistan.

Here is his take on the situation:

That's what I suspected. BP disorders occur in women more than men. My theory is that most men who are BP are never diagnosed because many of the symptoms tend to be "socially acceptable" for men. Because our society is accepting similar behaviors in women, I believe many women are not being diagnosed with a BP disorder.

During the mania periods, BP's become overly active, euphoric and irritated by those with whom they are most familiar. The mania drives a sense of adventure for something new. They become very restless and adventure into new and unusual things. They often make unreasonable purchases that often greatly impact their lives (new cars, new homes, expesive vacations, large credit card debt). Sexual misadventures are particularly manifested by BP women during this phase (often expected of men in our society). They will tend to not self-medicate themselves nor take prescribed medications during their mania phase. However, a depressive phase follows their mania. I have a different opinion about what causes the depression than phsychologists. I believe they begin to feel guilty and sometimes a feeling of being homesick for their normal lifestyle. These feelings lead to depression. During their depression, they realize they are unhappy and want their mania to return and try to medicate themselves to induce its return. It is a very vicious cycle that causes them to seek ways to induce mania that other people cannot understand. They will even lie to themselves by accepting elaborate lies or fantasies as truth and tell others while fully expecting others to believe their lies and fantasies. I have counseled BP's who have told me urban myths as events that happened in their own lives.

My suspicion is that xW's problem became very evident shortly after the birth of your second child. For some reason, BP tends to get more evident after childbirth and progressively worse with each child. They love to be pregnant and boast about their fertility. Those who have difficulty bearing children are impacted to a more severe degree.


Having now given that information, I think your problem relates to two issues. The first is what does God expect you to do. I actually believe this is an easy one to answer but a difficult one to accept and apply. You made a vow to God relative to xW and He expects you to fulfill that vow A vow differs from a promise in that a vow is a promise about someone or something to God. His grace can forgive broken vows but His expectation is for us to fulfill them. Ecclesiastes 5:4,5 says, "When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it: for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. Better is that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay" Verse 5 seems to be what the disciples were trying to apply in Matthew 19:10. The second issue is the matter of xW's sincere desire to be forgiven. As a friend, I am going to tell you that xW will do these things again. If she truly is BP, these things are a part of her life. I know that is very difficult to deal with and it is something that only those who have to deal with the problem can understand.

Therefore, you have to make a decision. Your decision is one of faith. By faith, you can accept xW back into your life with the physical and mental challenges that she has. Abraham failed at this point. By faith, God expected him to trust that God could overcome Sarah's barren womb. Abraham knew that the biblical pattern for marriage (from the Garden of Eden) was for one man and one woman. Abraham stepped out of God's plan and tried to fix God's problem by impregnating Hagar. There have been astronomical consequences to that mistake. FGG, you can trust God by faith and restore things with xW which I believe you know is the right thing to do. You are going to struggle with this because you see Ann as the ideal process in fixing your "alone" problem. Abraham thought Hagar was his ideal fix as well.

I believe God is putting you at a crossroad of decision. I suggest, if you decide to reconcile with xW, that you take full advantage of her vulnerability and establish yourselves into a great local church with a loving pastor whose understanding of xW's problem will help you both restore your marriage. I also suggest you take this very slowly.

I am going to suggest the following course of action:

1. Explain to Ann what has happened. She has asked you to be patient with her and you need to ask her to be patient with you. She was fearful that this may happen and you both need to see what impact xW can have on your relationship. Ann's children do not need to know about any of this right now.

2. Try to reconcile with xW and see if she is sincere or only that her remorse has triggered a depressive swing from her mania. You cannot rush this and you cannot become romantically involved during this time. You must not allow xW to manipulate you and she must be willing to fully cooperate with you. She cannot hide anything from you during this trial period. You must explain to her that if she denies or resists any request from you to check into anything you want to know than you will take that as an indication of her ingenuine attempt to gain what she is losing. You must be very confident and determined during this time and do not allow anyone to manipulate you including your children.

3. If you find that xW is not genuine and you feel at peace with God about Ann, then marry Ann and move on with your lives.

This is a very good thing that has happened even though it is difficult to see. It will either show you that you still belong to xW or it will give you peace about being with Ann. Honesty about all of this with Ann is very important.

I see that you are giving this some more thought. That is a positive. I have to say though, if I were Ann, I would walk away. If she is not your first choice for a spouse at this point... why should she settle for someone that would pick someone else before her? There would be no reason for her to enter into a M with you at this time since you have made it known that your ExW is your first choice.
JMHO.

Well, that was an interesting perspective. I think your friend is a very wise man. I'm not sure what 2 say about it, though. I agree with quite a lot of what he talks about strategy-wise WRT your xW and restoration of your family.

But I doubt this will work, and this is why:

".what kind of a relationship would I be wanting if I keep secrets from Ann? I never, never kept secrets from xW."

What is conflict avoidance but a form of secrecy?

I'm sure you can grasp what I'm getting at here. What your friend describes would indeed be very difficult - in the best of circumstances where you are able 2 be completely honest with both women you're involved with (keeping them both "in the wings"). But it will be impossible if you can't shed your conflict avoidance once and for all.

-ol' 2long

If it matters at all, I agree 100% with every single thing that your friend says....

When was FGG's Ex FWW diagnosed BP? I must have missed it.

I agree; wise friend.

CC:
I recall that she was diagnosed and put on meds...unless I am not remembering correctly and the meds were just for depression. I know I thought she had BP...it was discussed on FGG's other thread. It always seemed like there was some form of mental illness going on...some of her behavior didn't seem typical of the average wayward spouse.

Many of us suspected that there was some psychiatric problem, but as far as I can remember there was never a diagnosis. I remember the discussion on the other thread. If it is true that she is BP, I think that the enthusiasm over FGG getting on with his life wouldn't have been so "enthusiastic"...

I swear that I think that my Ex WW has BPD from what I have read and studied. Tough to deal with.

I do recall thinking of the in 'sickness and in health' vow. I believed she was ill so divorcing, when he moved on to divorce, I wasn't convinced it was best. I think I may have said something like that along the way....but I may have only thought it. He should have waited 2 yrs after the divorce for everything...that was always the ideal, but once he didn't, I tried to be supportive of his decisions. I just wanted him to be happy and not be too presumptuous to think I knew better than he.

I was very disappointed when he was having an A before he was divorced. He was weak but I am glad he finally fessed up..to us...at least. He needs to fully disclose to his XW before any reconciliation can begin.

CC, I think you've been wise to wait for your WH's A to run it's course, as you have been doing. You have seen the examples of those here who have moved on too soon and then not wanted their spouse back even after the A ended and there was remorse.

Trix, trying to be true to myself, and with the knowledge I have acquired with Dr. H and all the people on the forum, I have no choice but to wait. Any other option seems to eventually be more difficult...

But this is not easy. Many times I think of what peace I would have if I were to just divorce him...

((((cc))))

thanks mimi.

Someday I hope to need your help, so please stick around!

I hung in there longer than two years and it worked out well for us. I didn't do a real plan B..we have a business together.

GGG, I like your friend, and his advice. He has insight. Your xW never did seem to me to be a run-of-the-mill adulterer.

I like all that he wrote, er, with one exception, that is.

He leaves out the medical treatment aspect. BP is usually, not always, but usually, treatable. If you are going to attempt reconciliation with xW you should, IMO, take her to see a qualified Dr. Go with her. Get on board with her in an aggressive BP treatment program, and then see how it goes for a year or so.

Make it part of a written list of conditions you both sign.

With continuing prayers,

ed: Conditions is not the right word. Joint goals for a new realtionship is better. Yeah. That is better.

Aphelion -

Now that GG is here, ahem...... Can we talk about the fact that he is engaged, and that folks from California to Austrailia and South America know that he wants his wife back, but his fiancee STILL doesn't know?

Bel,

"Can we talk about the fact that he is engaged, and that folks from California to Australia and South America know that he wants his wife back, but his fiancee STILL doesn't know?"

Sure, 'till the cows come home. Won't make any difference to a CA though, will it.

Besides, I'm not sure Ann doesn't know. Woman's intuition thang, I suspect. I think she knows, has known.

What is needed most is for FGG to tell her, for his own sake.

Of all the people who are going to get hurt in this, and some rather hugely, FGG risks the most.

So much CA'ing.

Calling God is good. Calling friends, professionals and counselors is good. Calling MB is good. Over and over, even.

In the end, acting ethically is all that is required. FGG already knows what is required.

With prayers,

I do hope that he can align his actions with his values. To me, that is essential in a life well lived.

Well said Believer!

I believe that earlier in this thread when he was telling about the phone conversation he said that she is on medication and now able to see how she had been to him. I'll have to go back and look. I got the impression that she has been stablized with the meds.

I went back and didn't find it...maybe I was just reading between the lines and assuming...I seem to do that....sometimes I am wrong.

Until he sits Ann down and tells her the whole truth, IMHO, GG is as bad as an actively WS. This needs to happen and should have happened BEFORE he even had that talk with his W.

Hello..everytime I log on here I see a new round of discussion..

I just got off the phone with Ann. Told her the whole thing...everything. As I suspected...she took it all with the kind of selfless attitude that exemplifies who she is.

She told me how much she appreciated letting me know all of this. We talked a long time...about a lot of things. What we have both been through, the things that we have enjoyed together...how much she feels that I've helped her out of the 'cocoon' (her words) that she was living in.

And...true to who she is...she said that her prayer would be that xW's turn around is genuine and that we are able to restore not only our marriage....but the family ss well.

I asked that, as she had asked me to be patient with her...that she be patient with me. And...she said she certainly would. We did agree to remain "friends"..and to continue on during this time. I agreed to let her know what is happening.

As relates to the BPD thing..xW did say when we talked that she is being treated for BPD-II. I'm not sure (perhaps others here have a more learned opinion) if this would "explain" everything. Personally...I doubt it..but I'd be willing to listen.

So...anyway...another small piece of the CA'er whittled away. Not easy...not easy at all. We had already talked a long time this afternoon and I just couldn't tell her. But I knew I had to...so I called her back tonight.

Anyway...thanks for pestering me until I did what I needed to do..

Bravo. Now, I hope the next step with your W goes well. BPD is a very difficult to treat issue... and I would suggest that you go into this with your eyes wide open. Get as much onfo as you can.... but IMHO, while it may explain certain things, it doesn't explain everything away.
You owe it to yourself to make decisions that will give you the best chance for happiness. I pray you take that route.

(((Georgia)))..I knew you would and could talk to Ann...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />...to those who may have something ugly to say about this hug....

I'm recalling us talking about BPD and you not acceping this as a cause for your W's affair..

I wish your xW knew how she has always had a piece of my heart for some reason....

Maybe I relate to her because of having suffered from depression...

Who knows?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mimi..

I think of 2 countries when they are on the brink of conflict..(ie - Cuban missile crisis), and how one has to help the other find a way out....

I'm willing to extend a branch on this BPD thing. Do I think this is THE cause of all of her behavior? Not for a moment!! Am I willing to accept her sincere apology and use it as a cover? Possibly.

I think I know...deep down inside now...that there is a chance that we are going to recover. Talking to you...Mimi..my friend...I dread it. I'm not excited.

Even in our convo the other night...she said things like "You SHOULD have known something was wrong with me!"...etc. Always wanting to blame someone...anyone..but herself. But...intermingled with very, very sincere apologies...

And...assuming we get that far..I will have to face that I have hurt her by my actions..

This won't be easy...

The fat lady isn't even warming up yet...but has been added to the program.

Georgia

GG,

My husband has BP - to such an extreme that he has been hospitalized for it. Since that dark time in our lives, we agreed that he must manage it and not use it to excuse bad behavior.

He has NEVER gone so far off the moral compass as a BP as to flaunt another woman in front of me. His conscience is very acute - and when he recognized he was in an EA he came to me and told me that he needed to close the OW's access to his love bank.

Kasey's bad BP behavior was more in temper and controlling behaviors; but for the last 10 years, it has shown up as apathy and depression for his quality of life. (He hasn't met my emotional need for financial support for most of the time since his diagnosis; however, the last 8 months have found him studying skills that could develop into an ability to overcome his fears and step up.)

I made a determination a long time ago that I would never marry again. I am perfectly comfortable being alone or with my husband. However, I would never tolerate bad behavior from my husband once I reached this point of being ok being alone. He didn't know that until I separated from him 10 years ago, and I wasn't so anxious to reconcile. We'd meet in our minister's office and Kasey would lay out his demands and conditions for reconcilliation and I'd simply say, I didn't see myself doing those things and I didn't need to get back with him that badly. For two months his attitude was full of arrogance and bluster. After that, He started changing a bit on that tactic and softening.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is learn to find out what's so great about being by yourself, with Jeb, and living the full life that you do with building water features and ceramics and your faith study group. You do not need a woman to complete you right now and it just messes with your head when you need to be able to see things clearly in your wife's clean up process.

She needs to own it all - holding you totally blameless. You, however, have much to consider - especially your motives for rushing to end it - that you kept from us when we could have helped you through that dark time in your life. It will be very telling how truly remorseful she is when you disclose that part of your life to her. She may well take it to over and you are off the hook for trying to reconcile something that clearly is still repulsive to you, even though she is as you say, "The love of your life". Allow her to be as forgiving as you offered to be, had she cut herself off from the OM while you were still married. If she isn't, well, you have your answer.

Perhaps it's time for your wife to work with Jennifer?

Georgia...

Admittedly, I don't know all of your history, so forgive me if this is not helpful information to you...I'm not certain if you still live in Georgia, or if you do, what part, however, my father has Bipolar Disorder and lives in the Atlanta area...He went unmedicated for YEARS...My mother had finally taken all that she could and divorced him after 40 years of marriage-an extremely tough decision...Since then, my dad has finally found an AMAZING doctor in Atlanta that has treated him successfully...This doctor has devoted much of his life to understanding and treating people affected with Bipolar Disorder...His website is quite informative, and BOTH of my parents highly regard him...My mother has said that if my father had found him years ago, they might still be married...Anyway, here is the link Carman Research Perhaps, if nothing else, it might provide you with some additional helpful information...

God Bless,

Mrs. W

Good morning all -

Yes, I live in Ga about 2 hours from Atlanta.

I have thought about this, and I believe that IF we get as far as talking reconciliation, my first condition would be that I want to sit down with her doctor, alone, and get the truth. I'm not sure that xW is capable of passing truth along....whether intentionally or not.

Some of you may recall, just days before our divorce, she suggested to me that her dr. suspected BPD. I spent several days doing all the homework I could, including talking to a psychiatrist at the local Medical College, and was told by 3 different sources...all trained in BPD, that her actions did not equate to BPD symptoms. However, I am also willing to note that I read that symptoms can vary widely from person to person.

I will get back to this later.

My thankfullness this morning if for the graciousness demonstrated by Ann last night. She is so amazing...to take such information with such kindness. I was so nervous about sharing that..and she put me at such ease.

And, it is going to be wonderful to be back at my church this morning. I have missed it so much while I was gone.

In more mundane things...I planted pansies yesterday and it was so nice to get my hands in dirt again. I loved it...

Thank you all for your concern, more later. Off to get ready for church.

Georgia

I recommend for you to schedule another session with Steve Harley.

I encourage you to be OPEN AND HONEST with him, including sharing how you became a WH..you know, the PA and stuff...

What do you think about this?

Hi Mimi..

I may schedule another session with SH. He already knows all the details.

Great! I hope you do that. I think it will be helpful especially since he knows the whole story....

Yes, I was talking with my pastor this morning. He is trying to find the best local source to help us through this. There is one guy locally who I believe is a near SH clone...but he is extremely hard to see.

My pastor is going to call him...as well as the counseling center in a nearby city who he knows has had success in difficult cases.

I mentioned to him this morning that I may call SH again.

Georgia

I am glad you told Ann. I don't think it is a good idea to remain in contact with Ann while trying to reconcile with XW. It would be as disrespectful as her continuing contact with OM. I can't see how you can really maintain that friendship while exploring reconciliation.

How do you see that working for you? Wouldn't it be like eating cake? I am sorry for the predicament you find yourself in. I wish my fantasy had been right when I thought you were just working on your pond, deck, and church activities and trying to heal.

I think it may not be so bad for Ann since it really seemed she was also having second thoughts about being in a serious, commited relationship with you in such a short amount of time. Hindsight has shown that I was wrong to encourage you in that.

I hope you're not setting yourself up for a disappointment in your wife's resolve and ability to do everything necessary to have a future together.

see how great FROSTY can be?

very <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> cool everybody ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

SH appointment Wednesday...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Everyone stand back....time for me to rant a bit.

I have NO CLUE what the next step is..or should be..or what I want it to be. I sometimes feel almost sick thinking about reconciling...and at other times get excited thinking about how nice it would be if we could re-establish a vision of traveling together....watching our grandkids, etc. I ALWAYS felt so at home...at peace..and content when xW and I were together. Is it possible that we could EVER be that way again? Or am I just blindly asking for some more of the same and allowing my CA'ing tendency to suck me right back in?

If it's really BPD induced...then am I heading towards a life of more of this??? or should her meds control her actions? The 2 counselors who actually talked to her / I both commented that she was extremely self-centered....everything seemed to revolve around her and her desires...

Once she finds out my shortcomings...am I then (rightfully?) to be subjected to a lifetime of "how could you???".....

Rarely through this whole mess have I been as confused as I am right now.

I vascillate between thinking that there is some hope of "normalcy" in my life again...and thinking that with just one phone call...xW has again demonstrated her power to interrupt my life.

Rhetorical rant...sigh...

I would suggest contacting a counselor yourself... not a MB coach... and asking them what types of things you can expect as a result of this disease. You can also (in addition to) sit down with one of your xw's therapists (she should be managed by a psychiatrist and not a FP) and talk to them about the same.
While you envision a wonderful life with the person you feel you were married to before... ask yourself if it is possible that she can reappear or is it that you want it so badly that you can put aside some very rational fears and concerns.
I wish you all the best luck with this.

GG......you dont HAVE to remarry her. Just date her. The true person will show in no time.

PS. I personally would NEVER go back to someone that actually divorced me. That meant they totally gave up in my book. They had time to see that dating around is not cracked up to what they want it to be.......THEN, they want to come running back home. That is TOO late IMHO.

Georgia...this is good...SIT with your FEELINGS of CONFUSION or whatever and DO NOT fall prey to your IMPULSE to DO SOMETHING.

I don't find anything whatsoever unusual or abnormal about your current feelings.

I had the EXACT SAME ANXIETY, FRIGHT AND CONFUSION at the thought of reconciling with my FWH...

It's OK to FEEL...

I think you AVOID FEELINGS by your ACTIONS....

Where's the rule that states that LIFE is supposed to be EASY and you are not as likely as all of us to FEEL OUT OF CONTROL..or even CRAZY?

BTW, Starting Over..Georgia is the one who filed for D..not his wife....

Thanks for you input.....

I believe that asking her to authorize permission for me to meet with her psychiatrist, one on one, is not asking too much. I think I would deserve to know: a) how much is attributable to BPD, b) what the future holds. Those things may not be openly discussed with her sitting there.

Startin...would you EVER go back to someone who divorced you while you were very, very serious about having another man move into your house while your husband worked to pay the bills for both of you? And..while you were very upset that he didn't think it was a good idea that another man live with you in his house?

I think an alternate question is...would you ever UNDIVORCE someone who had put you through that?

I know that these things aren't quite as vivid in the casual observers mind as they are mine....

Reading about it and living through it is quite a different thing...

Are you saying that what you have experienced is different than what others here have experienced?

oh mimi....

can't I rant without having to prove that I'm any worse off than anyone else?

Of course not....

I think I probably mis-read starting's post..thinking how dare me consider going back since I divorced her. I read your clarification after I posted...

Can't I have a pity party if I want? It's my party and I'll cry if.....well, you know the rest of the song...

I'm hoping that SH can give me some clear direction to at least test the waters. Do I recall you saying that you had to endure some verbal abuse from FWH after he came back? Is that to be expected from emerging WS's...that you still get an earful of "it's all your fault", even after they return home.

RANT ON!!

Me thinks that your RANTING is a GOOD THING!

You have LOTS to RANT ABOUT!

And..as I was trying to say..YOU ARE UNDERSTANDABLY CONFUSED..who wouldn't be?..who wasn't?

If I were you, I'd be looking for Steve to help me differentiate between a BP WS and a garden-variety WS..if there is such a difference..

Slammed... recently talked to Steve about her WS who is BPD... and he gave her some info....

I also think you need to entertain taking a look at the part that you played in your marital difficulties..or how YOU need to change..because you know my belief that we only have control over ourselves...

ALL OF THIS STUFF IS VERY MESSY, STINKY AND DIFFICULT..IT JUST IS!!!!

FGG,
I read this yesterday:
All through the Bible, God equates patience with maturity. Proverbs 14:29 tells us, "A patient man has great understanding, but a quick tempered man displays folly." Patience is a mark of maturity.”

Don't you think it would be good to exercise a little patience at this moment? Use the time to rant!

Let things happen as they should.

Mimi & cc...

Thanks for both of your inputs.

I do hope that SH will have something good to say. He had never disappointed in the past, so I assume that this will also be worth the effort....

cc....thank you for your exhortation. There is no doubt that patience is not a word that comes to mind when describing myself, even though I do understand it as a virtue.

I'm home now, and I plan to spend much of the evening fixing (or attempting same) my microwave, and heading over to the Y.

Don't think that my ranting is over with...I'll probably be back with more later!!

Thanks -

I wish you would just rant and not do other things, for a little while.....

We're willing to listen to you....

thanks, cc...

that is very kind of you...

I'll let you know how the microwave project turns out...

right or wrong
correct or incorrect
I have something to say...

I'll keep it simple

GG

STOP looking for your identity in the mirror of your relationships

you have bounced back and forth many times these recent years

falling in and falling out of "love" several times

to your own detriment

and

to their detriment as well

you are not a ping-pong ball
quit bouncing & changing directions

all this discussion about "which woman should I choose" is NOT what this is about

this is about YOU trying to fill a personal void with another human being

STOP doing this
it is becoming a habit

ask yourself a different question

who are you when you are alone?

you are a good person

but STOP bouncing around!!!!!

Pep

It seems to me like we are all jumping the gun a bit here -- unless there is more than what was posted.

Has XW expressed a desire for reconciliation?
I went back and read your initial descriptions of this conversation -- and all I saw was apologies, remorse, and missing you.

What I didn't see was a request for reconciliation, a plan for recovery, or a commitment to changing behavior.

It seems to me that all this is very very very very premature.

What if she were just depressed and poured out her heart to you, but the next day was feeling better and still happy to have OM in her life???

Have there been any subsequent discussions with XW??
I guess before you go jumping into designing a plan for recovery -- I would make sure that OM was gone. Not "will be" gone, but already 100% GONE. Otherwise this isn't any different that a WW trying to break through a Plan B and get a little reassurance that BH is still available before returning to all their bad behaviors.

I'm glad you were honest with Ann. And I am glad you are seeking counseling. Good moves.

Something else Georgia that I have learned growing up with a father that has Bipolar Disorder...You only exist to them when they want you to...They can go for long periods of time without you because you simply don't come to mind...then they can flip suddenly and you become the focus...but guess what? They flip A LOT...Nature of the illness...

Another thing is that people affected with this disorder struggle with is remaining on medication...Once they feel better, they get a false sense that they can control it themselves and suddenly go off meds...That is common...Also, even on meds, there are no guarantees that she will not still cycle...It will be to a lesser degree usually, but may require an adjustment of meds...It is a very encompassing illness for all involved...

You can still choose to love and be with someone that has Bipolar Disorder...But please do much research to see if that is indeed a choice that you want to make...

Best,

Mrs. W

Is his wife bipolar or is she borderline personality disorder? I seem to think it is the latter.

Anything I have suggested here was for borderline personality disorder... I know next to nothing about bi-polar....
Sorry if I was wrong about that... BPD is the medical abreviation for borderline personality disorder.

what is your plan for this week? not your plan for life, or your plan for retirement, but just for now?
Have you even spoken to XW again since the lengthy conversation from last week?

okay, I'm going to do something unusual for me and go back and try to address each post....

back in a few moments..

Pepper:

I KNOW you are absolutely right...but knowing that and being able to make those changes within myself are not easy. I do wonder why it is that I can't seem to be content for a long period of time alone.

Lexxy

There was absolutely no discussion about recovery. And I have not talked to her again since then. The only thing, IMO, that was significant was what sounded like a very genuine apology. If I may, I think the desire for reconciliation from her is ASSUMED..(yes, I know...don't say it).

Mrs. W:

What you say is very interesting. I have been reading a lot, including the link to the center in Atlanta you suggested.

MEDC:

Bi-Polar Type II. If there is an accepted acronym, someone tell me and I will use it.

WOF:

My only plans for this week:

Work of, course.
See if I can weasle back into a pottery class tomorrow night.
Church Wed night.
Home Bible Study Thursday night (still at alternate house while I was away).
Friday - Saturday ....nothing except odd jobs around here..like fix my leaking roof.

And, no...no further conversations with xW since that one.

Georgia

no secret here

it's UNCOMFORTABLE for you to be alone

and you feel alive & excited when embroiled in "woman struggles"

and guess what

the "why" ??? ... I don't give a dayum (said with a fake southern drawl mister ... just for yew)

who cares "why" ????? Knowing "why" won't change your problem. DOING something different will change things.


resist the comfort of "the same" in this instance GG

you need that discomfort of being alone

your personal growth lies in that discomfort you try to escape

and besides ... an adult who tolerates "alone" very very well ... makes a wonderful spouse !!!!

actually ... I think this is prolly easily overcome ... you have some excellent personal resources to fall back on

Best to you

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

EXACTLY...what I was "trying" to say to ya....

Thank you Pep...with the 2nd by Mimi...

Well...I think I'm pretty much there now...so we'll see how that goes...

May I ask...are most people this way...or do I seem to be extra adverse to aloneness?

(btw - absolutely no Southern drawl here...but thanks for making me feel at home).

could't say

I don't actually know you

and I certainly don't know everyone else

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

but, if forced to guess ... I'd say there are men who rely on a woman to make them feel manly

have you read this?

Wild At Heart <~~~ CLICK

Oh my, Pep...makes me feel like I want to be James Dean and Braveheart rolled into one...

No, I've not read it..not heard of it..but kind of like the premise...

edit - you know anything about it...do you recommend it?

a few years ago we had a "wild" thread about this book

I found it useful to read, as a woman ... in order to better understand true masculinity

it was pretty hard for me at first
and I prolly ought to revisit the book

my husband LOVED IT

If I read it...it may trigger even more of a MLC!

I'm game...I'll try it...

Good night.

'Wild at Heart' is by Christian author: John Eldredge.

At the risk of punning shamelessly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> -- G.G. you are not alone!

I was exactly like you, which is why I didn't do what ***I*** needed to do to grieve the end of my marriage. I jumped... held my nose... and hit the bottom of the pool. It's taken a long, long time to get back to the surface. That's why I have come to your thread to tell you that I understand... these are not platitudes... this was my reality, as well. I """get""" you.

You are being given an opportunity that I also had, but squandered. You have the chance to have NO REGRETS... and there is almost nothing in the world that is a better gift after divorce... I truly believe that.

Best wishes to you...

And my hope is that at the end of this leg of your journey... you have peace ... whether it is with your ex-wife, Ann or all by yourself.

God bless!!

I highly recommend WILD AT HEART.

However, I still say that LOVE AND RESPECT helped me understand my H the best and my H voiced strong agreement with LOVE AND RESPECT as I read out loud passages to him...especially since LOVE AND RESPECT focuses on that ADMIRATION need which also seems high on your list.

Looking through my highly underlined copy of LOVE AND RESPECT last night, there's a chapter towards the end about a man's intense need for SHOULDER TO SHOULDER COMPANIONSHIP ...the need for his woman to just BE THERE with him. Maybe you sorely missed this after all those years of having your wife THERE with you. I can't imagine my H being ALONE for any length of time...

I've read somewhere that widowers remarry soon after LONG TERM MARRIAGES. I think the adage is WIDOWS MOURN, WIDOWERS REPLACE..Maybe this has been partly your GRIEF WORK...Maybe it's from a BOWLBY book on LOSS..I'll keep looking...

Mimi..always trying to find an answer in a BOOK...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning all -

NB II...I know this should be obvious, but I'm not quite sure what you mean:

"You are being given an opportunity that I also had, but squandered. You have the chance to have NO REGRETS... and there is almost nothing in the world that is a better gift after divorce... I truly believe that."

Can you elaborate?

Mimi...I have read most of L&R. Truth is..when it looks like I'm going to need those principles, I can read eagerly. But..I find it very hurtful to read such when I'm alone. So..I have stopped reading it and relegated it to the bookshelf while I continue reading "1776". Probably shouldn't be that way...but true.

I suppose this goes without saying, but to the point you make. It is the COMPANIONSHIP that I miss more than anything, eclipsing by far SF and other such things. I have been considering buying a HDTV, but I just rarely enjoy sitting down and watching a movie alone (even though I sometimes do). The same could be said about just about everything....

Georgia

EXACTLY what is talked about in that section of the book...

I'd be interested in what you have to say about it...

How about just reading THAT CHAPTER?

will do...

AHAH...Smart and knowledgeable woman that I am..I knew it was BOWLBY..all it took was a Google..

http://psychsoc.gerontologyjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/55/4/S197

Could be important info. in this concept for you..I think..
attempting to relieve your anxiety?

Hi again, GG,


Yes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you had married Ann without going through the necessary grieving...

... perhaps always wondering in the back of your mind if you could have saved your family...

... maybe looking at your new wife and thinking that as good a person as she is, as much as you adore her... maybe you made a mistake moving so quickly...

... or you have ANY "if only" feelings ("if only I'd given her a chance to find healing"... "if only I'd taken the time to learn about BPD"... lots of "if only's")....

If any of that happens (and it did for me, and I suspect it would have for you)... you live in a he11 of your own making that is dragging not only you, but the people you love the most in the world, through the muck and mire of possible (if not probable) regret.

I have been married to my second H for over five years now... and I'm seriously, SERIOUSLY telling you that the first year was spent in a puddle of tears and confusion... because even though I loved (and love) my H VERY much, I wished I'd waited and grieved the loss of my first marriage alone -- or rather, close to my family and loved ones. Instead, in my case, I not only moved away emotionally, I moved physically.

The second, third and some of the fourth year was spent beating myself up over the regret of my choice to move so quickly and definatively... and trying to decide if another divorce or staying married and miserable was my punishment for being such an idiot. In the end, and after much discussion, prayer, meditation and angst, I chose to honor my vow to my second H and do what I could to repair, mend and make amends to those I harmed by my decisions.

You see, GG, regrets don't just harm you... although they harm you most, I think, if you're a thoughtful person. Regrets for people like us are usually about the harm/pain we cause OTHERS. Isn't that what you're worried about?

So, again, my only advice to you, as someone who's travelled this road before you... is to STOP. See this as the opportunity it is: A fresh look at your life BEFORE you make drastic changes that affect not just you, but others you love.

Understand now?

yes, I understand

......

oh
wait

were you talking to me?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yep...time..to stop..to do..your GRIEF WORK....

Oh my NBII...that was so poignant.

Thank you so much for a very meaningful expression of your grief. As you've expressed so openly, let me add some things that have been heavy on me even before the xW call:

When Ann came here...she was resigned to live here. Talked about finding a job in her vocation...loved the ranch with horses, etc.

When I got there...I was SHOCKED...yes, SHOCKED..to see the closeness of her and her gk's. All the while thinking to myself that there is NO WAY I could ask this woman to leave this...she loves them so much and they her. That would be such a cruel thing to ask someone to do...and why? for my own selfishness? Hardly.

Thinking of me moving there...well, I'm just now feeling like I'm really getting the R with my own sons repaired and getting really close again, at least to #1S. And, I will have gk's in the not too distant future. If I had a granddaughter (I know I shouldn't discriminate, but heh...we're being honest here, right?)..and I was on the other end of the country...oh man....I don't know how I would handle that.

And...on the "regrets" thing...(I'm sorry this is so long)...

I remember the closing chapters of my marriage. And some of you here will remember....

There were multiple cases of ..."well, if you only go through this, then you will know you have done everything you could do". Do this, do that...explore this, explore that...is there ever really an end to the "if only I had" questions?? Is this just one more in a long line of the same, or is there some real glimmer of hope? (if that's the right word at this stage of the game).

My friend WOF seems to have experience here...with her rekindled start with her xH.

So..really...if i allow this newest development to run it's course, find out where it's going, then do I reach a point of "no regrets"? NPII, please don't take what I'm saying as debating you..but I have to wonder if some of your torture is unjustified?

But yes, the message you send is valid.

"Regrets for people like us are usually about the harm/pain we cause OTHERS. Isn't that what you're worried about?"

Yes, that is so true. It hurts me so much to know the pain that I have already caused others...and that just seems to compound on my own grief.

Okay, enough of my little addendum to yesterdays pity party....

Work to be done..the free world is at stake..

how to minimize harm to others?

know thyself truely ... very very well ... that's how

What was the matter with having a "pity party" yesterday?

Are you running away from those feelings?

YESTERDAY WAS GOOD....

When will you know you have done all that you could and that you will have no reqrets, FGG?

I believe that the question should be one to yourself, getting as real as possible with yourself, and asking yourself if you still want your marriage with your XW. Whether or not she wants it at this point is not part of the equation in deciding if you in fact are done or not. It is all about you in answering this question.

If she got treatment which allowed her to be a healthy, stable, loving partner, would you want to be with her?

If she didn't get well but wanted to get back together with you, would you want to?

If you are harboring any fantasies (look deep within) then you are not done with this marriage and you need to stop being so eager to move on.

The questions should always be what do we want, if anything were possible, what would you want to see happen?

And then act accordingly. At some point you will either get the opportunity to rebuild your marriage or you will no longer entertain any notion of rebuilding with her. You will have crossed a bridge and be ready to love again, with someone new.

This is what it means to have no regrets, and only you can answer what that will take on your end to accomplish.

I had said in an earlier post that I think what you were doing was entirely normal for someone who had never been alone as an adult. Normal, predictable and probably required for you to get to the place you need to be to settle into you new single life, and to become comfortable with and even embrace your solitude (thanks 2long for the reminder).

I love my time alone as well FGG. I love having a weekend to myself to listen to my music, read my books, talk to my friends and I have for a long time now, but it wasn't always this way.

And now I'm in a really good relationship so the times we are together are so very much enhanced because we each bring newness into the relationship with our own individualness and interests, and especially our time alone.

I'm not trying to give advice here, but I think if I were you I would really try to determine if I still wanted my ex, and put all other romantic relationships out of the picture until I didn't want my ex anymore.

Hang out with your new friends, your sons and their families.

See who this new FGG is. Enjoy it, this time of growth and the opportunity to be totally self absorbed in your own healing and discovery, it may never come again you know. This opportunity.

I thought Pep said something astounding when she asked "do you know who you are when you are alone?", and probably more importantly... do you like that person?

Once the grieving is over, and the self-discovery begins...life gets really interesting and fun.

Sorry so long and rambling.

Mimi -

I was just reading your post to Poprock..and I'm going to cross-thread-jack your statement (is that permissible?)

"But another MAJOR FACTOR was the fact that my H thought I WAS MOVING ON..He became afraid that he was REALLY LOSING ME when I put our house up for sale, sold it the first day and was looking for a house of MY OWN..."

That is the type thing that SH described (to me) as "shock therapy" to knock the WS out of their drunken stupor...the moving out, buying my own house, filing for D, etc...

What really, really did it for xW (again, IMO) was to find out that "her husband" WILL NOT forever be sitting in a little house, alone, on the other side of town just waiting for her to return.

The morning xW called me when she found out that I was engaged...one of the things she said (through her tears) which I still remember, was something like "I'm afraid I've really messed up this time".

One thing I think you'll want to research is the long term affects of BPD meds. We have a friend who has been on them for many years. Along with stablizing his BPD they have also caused permanent damage to his brain/or personality. That is JMHO. He is a changed man, subtle though the changes may be.

He did have periods where he would go off of his lithium or whatever else he was taking and relapse. He would become manic and delusional. He spent a couple of months in a mental hospital.= at one point.

He has had to take anti-psychotic meds periodically.

His first wife left with their 3 kids when he committed himself for a week the first time he realized he wasn't well. They divorced and he wasn't able to maintain a close relationship with his kids. He remarried, only to divorce again due to his 2nd wife's infidelity. He is on disability and living alone. He doesn't seem able to establish another relationship with the opposite sex. He is a lonely man and totally focused on his disability.

I know nothing of the differences of type II from regular BPD. I know not all cases are the same. Some seem better able to function fine in society.

I am trying to digest all that is being said here, as well as what is going through my own thoughts, and formulate a cohesive dialog for SH tomorrow.

I'm not sure where to begin, other than to just tell him about the call last week.

My suggestion....

He'll first ask you to catch him up on things..that's what he always did with me...

Then, I recommend that you ask him what he thinks is best for you to focus on in your session...

His answer to that question might prove to be VERRRY INTERESTING....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

First of all HEL L NO!! I wouldnt go back. I would refuse to be married to someone who even thought that way.

Here is a question for you GG........would your EX have agreed to the situation in reverse?? Another woman in the mix?

Would your EX have remarried you?

The answer to these questions I have asked should answer your own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Trix (and others) in addition to Mimi's open ended recommendation, I do want to discuss this whole BPD thing with SH. He has talked with her 2X and he may have some insight on this subject as well.

And...to answer some of the questions posed by Weaver..I will refer to the "friendship" chapter in Love and Respect to which Mimi referred.

To quote:

"Women share experiences by talking about them to each other, examining and infusing the experiences with their impresssions and emotions. Men are different. They share their experiences by sharing an activity."

YES....precisely!!! W and I (before the WW days) shared almost ALL activities together. Our life experiences are together. And...what we didn't share, we talked about with on enother. It is that I miss....the sharing of experiences...the companionship.

Not that Jeb wasn't fun walking in that canyon last Monday...but W and I would have thrilled at doing that together!!

And..to Weaver's point..the thought of us doing those things together again is appealing. I still have a hard time accepting the idea that as long as I feel that way, I'm nor ready to move on.

What happened to the alien analogy? You know..my real wife has been abducted and replaced by an alien? Should I ever be expected to NOT want my wife back if the aliens returned her?

And now we come back full circle, Georgia...

To how your relationship with your WW WAS like my relationship is with my H....and our relationship is there again..and I can't help but PRAY this for you and your WW...

Of course, you YEARN (as in that Bowlby article) for her return again...

Pep and I among others have been encouraging you to SIT STILL AND EXPERIENCE THE YEARNING AND SORROW over your LOSS...

IMO, THIS IS THE WORK THAT YOU PERSONALLY NEED TO DO BEFORE YOU MOVE ON....

Experience and learn how to cope with your FEELINGS of sadness and anxiety...

deja vu...

There's always hope. Or, 2 put it another way, there's never hope if you're not willing 2 let there be - there's only "if only" 2uestions...

I deal with these 2uestions still, myself. I've learned 2 enjoy the process, which has become all the more intense as we deal, 2gether, with my SIL and MIL refusing 2 leave our 2nd home (or pay rent, or talk 2 us, even).

I find these definitions interesting:

a·loneness n.

Synonyms: alone, lonely, lonesome, solitary
These adjectives describe lack of companionship. Alone emphasizes being apart from others but does not necessarily imply unhappiness: “I am never less alone, than when I am alone” (James Howell). Lonely often connotes painful awareness of being alone: “‘No doubt they are dead,’ she thought, and felt... sadder and... lonelier for the thought” (Ouida). Lonesome emphasizes a plaintive desire for companionship: “You must keep up your spirits, mother, and not be lonesome because I'm not at home” (Charles Dickens). Solitary often stresses physical isolation that is self-imposed: I thoroughly enjoyed my solitary dinner.

-ol' 2long

Don't know if this will be any help....I am BPDII. The main difference between BP and BPII is that in BP you cycle from manic to depressive episodes...lots of ups and downs. BPDII has much less manic episodes and seems to just cycle through depressive episodes.

It took a long time for my diagosis and many meds. Good Lord, I got tired of experimenting with meds until they found the right combination.

I have been med-free for several years now, although it took about 5 years of weekly counseling to come to grips with everything that was bothering me.

At times I still get sad, maybe even a little depressed, but nothing like I used to go through. A very loving and supportive husband helped me through the rough spots. If it weren't for him, I doubt I'd be healed now. Right now - I guess you can say I'm sensitive - my feelings get hurt easily, but I try to keep that in check. I do have a rough time during the dark, cold days of winter, but again, nothing like I went through before....

Good luck to you Georgia - whatever you decide.

Morgaine,

Do you have any experience in treating the winter time problems with nutrition or mfd/artifical sun light? I am very interested in nutrition as a treatment in emotional/mental problems and wonder if you have used with any success. I come from an area with very little sunshine for months at a time and depression, symptoms of SAD, etc is rampant here.

Sorry for the thread jack FGG.

I've read studies that say that Omega 3 Fish Oil is helpful for BPD and depression. Also magnesium. I take both as well as Sam-e.

Weaver -

I have found that the full spectrum reading lights help as well as sunlight (none of my windows have curtains, now, for that reason). I try to keep seating areas near windows just so I can have a little extra light. SAD sucks, doesn't it? I count down the days until the winter solstice - there is much rejoicing on that date in my house - it can only get better after that.

I had never heard of any nutritional treatments, though, I find that interesting.

Morgaine, someone is letting me borrow his lamp for my office as he said he didn't feel it worked that great for him, but I know in Alaska our service men our required to spend a certain amount of time under one during their dark season.

Trix, I just started taking the Omega oils, but have not tried Sam-e, but I will, heck I'll take anything if it makes me feel good.

I have been reading about Goji Berries ( a distant relative to the wolfberry but of much better quality, grown in Tibet and managed by the Tibetans), and am thinking of ordering some as well

www.gojiberry.com

John Gray of the Venus/Mars books says that nutrition is a big factor in our relationships as they age, because without proper nutrition we don't get the feel good chemicals (like WS's get in an affair) or the in-love chemicals your brain produces at first (I think seretonin in women and can't remember what in men), but if we did we would always feel amorous toward each other.

John Gray of the Venus/Mars books says that nutrition is a big factor in our relationships as they age, because without proper nutrition we don't get the feel good chemicals (like WS's get in an affair) or the in-love chemicals your brain produces at first (I think seretonin in women and can't remember what in men), but if we did we would always feel amorous toward each other.

My diet must be proper then.........

Hi GG, remember, no matter what you do, or what she does, or how long it takes, or where you live, or what you eat, or if you change jobs, of if the boys like you or don't like you............ life goes on.

It's your job to get something out of it, even if it's tough.

What a fun thread, thanks everyone.

SS

Good afternoon folks..

Met with SH 2 hours ago..

Just got back from lunch with pastor.

I've got some meetings...I'll give an update tonight.

Georgia

Good evening all -

I'm trying to think of how to best summarize my meeting with SH.

It is hard to describe the conversation, so let me just skip to my plan of attack which we worked out.

A lot depends on whether or not xW is really ready and able to do the work required of a wife...or a "team player" as SH put it. Chief among those is her willingness and ability to totally and forever end her R with OM.

SH absolutey believes the first step is to sit down with xW's psychiatrist in a one-on-one discussion. I am to probe if, given her dianosis, the absence of meds would explain her actions. And, even more importantly, does the dr. believe that with the proper meds is she CAPABLE of staying within the confines of a marital committment and meeting her H's needs.

If xW will not agree to such a meeting, I am to take it as a sign that she is not serious about reconciliation.

I should add that concurrently exploratory questions should be used, such as asking when she last talked to OM...and can she commit to NC forever?

If that occurs, then we can discuss the POJA issues that must be put into writing BEFORE we can go forward. SH was adamnant that beginning any relationship with her without this (i.e. - dating) would be the wrong thing to do. It would allow my emotions to take over logic, and if she's still not able to commit, nothing good can come from that.

We did discuss Ann at length. He is concerned that I will not "hear" correctly the input from the dr. or xW with Ann in the wings. However, he also understands that one progress made to date (one phone call) is hardly enough to warrant a major lifestyle change. We had a frank discussion about this...and I resolved that if we pass the dr. test and the POJA test, that will be the time to commit without reservation to reconciliation. I'm can't report that SH said this is the "right" thing...as he still has doubts about my ability to do the homework leading up to that point. We did come to an agreement that it is an "acceptable" thing to do, as long as I am H&O with Ann about this situation.

So....that is the plan at this point. It is a bit sketchy, but I will call her this week and explore where this really is...and determine if she really is SERIOUS about reconciliation.

Georgia

[color:"red"] SH was adamnant that beginning any relationship with her without this (i.e. - dating) would be the wrong thing to do. It would allow my emotions to take over logic, and if she's still not able to commit, nothing good can come from that. [/color]

[color:"purple"] BINGO [/color]

At the risk of sounding like your mommy (perish the thought! Surely, I am not old enough! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )... Georgia, I am SO PROUD of you!

Thank you for your update...

The plan you and Steve came up with sounds solid and right...

... no quick moves... stay in the moment and really HEAR your ex, the doctor(s), Ann...

... and of course, listen to yourself, too... 'cause you know, you're no slouch in the smarts department... and let's face it... your gut knew enough to put on the brakes and come back to talk to us when things felt off-kilter...

Man, I'm just impressed with you.

Keep us up to date and best wishes on moving forward with a clear conscience and restored spirit!

God bless...

"GOD IS GREAT and GOD IS GOOD"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You make me blush...NBII....

Thanks all...

FGG,

Thank you for these updates. I am interested in the outcome. I know if you take carefull, measured steps, it will be the right outcome for you.

HL

Thank you HL....

I plan on calling xW tonight.

I feel like I'm in a period when time is standing still. Such a peaceful, rainy day here today.... All the colors of the leaves..

I've got Ann's pictures here on my desk, but our relationship is on hold and I don't even know if I will ever see her again. I've got an 8 X 10 of us on the beach the day we got engaged. Seems so far away now...and hurts when I see it. Perhaps I should put it away....

And I think, too, how nice it would be if xW became herself again. We could travel and do all the things we used to enjoy. And, we could have real family gatherings..with the whole family...intact...everyone...

Slap myself back to reality...

What is real right now is a meeting..

Georgia

Personally G.G. I think you are making a mistake. Your EX left you for OM, it didnt work out.....now she wants what she had. That does not in anyway bother you? Ann has been thru what happened to you, so she sure as heck isnt going to toy with you or play games. I believe your EX *might*. There is noway to tell, but I sure wouldnt chance it. With your kids being grown and gone, I personally would move on.....thats just me.

Let me ask a question......what if this happens again 2, 5, or 10yrs from now, and you gave up a woman you KNOW is good for you, for a chance? Its not worth it. You know what you had, now you are gonna chance what you might get back.

Good luck, god bless you, I think you are gonna need it.


PS. Im saying this, because my EX tried to do the same thing.....dumped me, it didnt work out with her OM, she tried to come back (H E L L No from me).....and you know what? She is STILL the same. Even though we arent married anymore, she still has the same issues. She was nice when she tried to return, but since I moved on......the same old EX wife came out in her. She never changed. If I would have taken her back, I would be miserable today. I remarried and am Sooooo in love its not funny. 5 yrs into my new marriage and I do not regret my divorce or new marriag one bit.

This is my humble opinion.........alot of people on this board know I speak my mind.....but, this is an open forum, and everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and comments.

In FGG's sitch I don't believe he was fully done with his XW and for that reason he never would be able to fully commit to another marriage. But like you, when he is he will know it and be able to move on with no regrets (if it does come to that).

FGG, I think you are doing the right thing for you And I wish you patience, grace and strength.

Hey StartinOver,

I appreciate your thoughts...

I'd like you to consider this: My advice, and that of others, I suspect, is from the perspective of GEORGIA... NOT his ex.

I believe, from what he has said and admitted to feeling, that he would REGRET not stopping to take a second look at what he was rushing into.

Sure, it's a gamble... and maybe he won't even give his W a second chance when all the dust has settled. But he had to step back... ""because"" he was questioning.

That's all I ever wanted him to consider... regrets are very heavy baggage... no matter what the circumstance.

yeah, I see your point.

I dont know.......drop a woman you know is good for one you have experienced aweful with??? I guess.

As the subject of this discussion (it's like having an out of body experience...watching while others talk about me!)..

It isn't nearly as simple as Woman A vs. Woman B.

Woman A is the mother of my children. She WILL BE the grandmother to my grandchildren. She was my GF from the time was 18 y.o. We have lived a very, very full life together...and were (IMO) very happy.

Can it be that way again?

And..oh yes..at the end she treated me worse than any one person should ever have to tolerate....not a small thing.

Woman B:

A peach of a woman, exemplary of Proverbs 31. No doubt would be wife most any man would die for.

And...absolutely gorgeous.

But....a new beginning. No history...Family members that aren't mine..many I don't know or have known a very short time.

Shared memories are only recent one...

But...offers the glimpse of what a truly loved and cherished life can be....again...

Yep.....you have alot of soul searching to do.

In case anyone here is wondering..

I just haven't really felt like I'm ready to pick up that phone and call her.

The thought of it just scares me.

Maybe it would be best to make it through the holidays without calling her or making any decisions at least.

I think that might insure that nostalgia isn't a big reason for her call...etc. Of course the same goes for you. I imagine it isn't easy for you to not be an intact family with her and your sons at this time of year.

Good morning, all -

Trix, you may be right about that. After I talked to SH, I thought that I was ready to just give her a call and get this ball rolling. But it seems to weigh on me exactly what ball I might be getting rolling...and all the consequences thereof. Maybe after Christmas would be a more "stable" time...or am I just CA'ing again?

I've needed to get her some info on some accounts (stemming from that same phone call). Last week I had to go back and read some e-mails from August, and it reminded me of how mean and hurtful she has been in just the past 4 months. All the not-so-veiled threats to take me back to court, telling me her e-mails were being copied to her attorney, etc.....

And, yes, Christmas is hard. We had a work day at church on Saturday and fortunately I got Christmas tree duty. What that meant is that I was the guy elected to climb the tall ladder and put the star on top along with the upper half decorations. I enjoyed that as it gave me a chance to enjoy decorating a tree with friends around.

Then yesterday afternoon I put up my Eckerd's $29.99 special. I must say that rather than feeling sorry for myself I got a really good laugh at what passes for a Christmas tree. Mine makes Charlie Brown's tree look huge.

Georgia

I've been keeping up with you.

I don't know what to say except LISTEN TO THE SPIRIT..HE WILL GUIDE YOU...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Mimi...

Yes, I just feel that to mix all this in with the Christmas emotions wouldn't be right...not at this time.

You know I always say: "GO WITH YOUR GUT" (feeling, that is)....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, you are. Whether it's the right thing 2 do or the wrong thing 2 do, part of your decision not 2 call her is due 2 CA.

Was calling her part of a "plan" that you and SH came up with 2 "get the ball rolling?" If so, then this is pretty obviously CA. If not, then I'm off base.

Holidays are hard. But facing "hard" with our new-found good-choice-making skills incrementally makes ours a better world.

-ol' 2long

Post deleted by mimi1254

Formerly GG,

Sometimes when I feel extremely anxious and unsure of myself I fall back on my time honored technique. I sit down and force myself to rethink my problem. Is it a problem because my own personality(Type A) makes it so or is this an artificial time frame I am imposing on myself. Often I find that it is my fault for putting time constraints on things that need none, in fact would only be helped through waiting.

Is there anything in your life right now that necessitates immediate action? Can anything you are involved in be CORRECTED by you making a decision NOW?

I find that time and time again, it is my psyche that puts prssure on me and not the other way around.

A more stable time for HER, or for YOU? I think the answer to this matters a lot.

And yes, I think you might be CA'ing. But I also think you're being thoughtful and mindful of the "potential" for difficulty.


Very interesting.

You know, GG, I've also had experience with BP individuals who've blown up like a rage-filled volcanos with covert, and not- so-covert threats. I understand how much that hurts, how frustrating it is, and how confusing it is.

GG, the whole reason we're *having* this discussion is because YOU were confused, not because SHE was. What she does, doesn't do, or has, hasn't done, isn't the reason you're putting on the brakes with Ann, is it? There must have been some underlying "unfinished-ness" with your ex, or else her words to you on the phone wouldn't have touched you as they did.

I totally DO understand that it's Christmas-time, which equals Emotional-time, and you don't want a false sense of closeness. But here's the thing: YOU already are AWARE of the potential... this may help to keep you centered.

If you want my advice, here it is: Call your ex, and try to have a good Christmas with your family. Keep in mind that you will no-doubt feel more emotional because of the time of year, but at the same time, watch and listen with your gut and your brain.

Don't make any final decisions, protect yourself and be careful.

Take care, and don't let anyone hold your heart but YOU.

I don't think he is conflict avoiding at all. I think he is having MUCH NEEDED second thoughts about a potentially disasterous decision and I am RELIEVED to see he is very cautious.

I think his initial impulse about all this was very hasty, impulsive and emotionally driven. He would be insane to not want to avoid a REPEAT of the last year of his marriage. And that may very well be what you face, GG, if you go back. The risk of that is GREAT and I think you are wise to take your sweet time and thing long and hard before you even consider going back. THERE IS NO RUSH!

I would hope that you could go back and just pick up and resume a wonderful fantasy life with your WW, but that might be very unrealistic. And thank the good Lord, you are carefully considering such a major, risky decision.

Thank you all...

I am really feeling quite comfortable with the status quo right now. I feel a bit at ease...some peace.

Ann and I do still indeed talk almost every day...but the conversation has definitely been ratcheted down a few notches. Frankly, I miss the closeness of the conversation we were having...but in a strange way I also feel somewhat that some pressure has been relieved.

And..no, there is no time constraint, no time frame to any of this. My propensity is to want to rush it and she where it is going to go, I want to know the end NOW....

But...I think this is going to be one time that I am willing to just wait..and be at peace for a while.

Georgia

Any news, Georgia?

<AD drums his fingers on the desk>

Sorry AD...some how my e-mail "alert" thing has ceased to function and I didn't get notified...

However, the answer to your question is "no"....

I've had absolutely no further communcation of any sort wtih xW.

I'm in a pretty comfortable "waiting" (is that the right word?) period right now....just letting all the dust settle and see how things go. Contentment is a good word.

Only really big news in the world is Ann has another grandchild (#4) on the way...

Georgia

Thanks for the update, Georgia.

I understand.

-AD

Well, FGG, it is after the holidays. How did they go and what are your plans for the new year?

Please give us an update.

Yes - UPDATE - UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE- UPDATE

SS

Hi everyone.....

Trix was kind of enough to e-mail me and ask for an update.

Well...tonight was the night that Ann and I had "the" conversation and our engagement is off. I think we are both in agreement with this and, as she recently said...

"It was a wonderful dream"....

We both have nothing but the kindest regards for one another and I continue to think of her as probably the most amazing woman I have ever met. Oddly enough, she echoes similar sentiments about me (sans the woman part!), but it's obvious we're doing the right thing. We have agreed that we must remain friends and stay in contact with one another.

If I drank, I'd be drunk again tonight. I can't sleep...

Plus..I've been sick for about the last 5 days and going to see my dr tomorrow.

I'll give more update later...but this is the news tonight.

Thanks for asking folks. By the way...no communication at all from xW.

Georgia

Georgia,

"Right thing", or not, that has got to hurt. <sigh>

You are a brave man. May God bless you with peace.

-AD

I hope you feel better soon.

Maybe the ball is in your court with your wife...from her perspective? I am a bit surprised you had no contact with her over the holidays.

So, nothing since you had that long conversation with her where she expressed some remorse?

Good Morning Trix -

That is correct, I have had absolutely no contact with her since that once conversation before Thanksgiving.

And, yes, you are likely correct in her thinking that the ball is in my court. And frankly I'm not really convinced that I want to even start that ball game.

I know that we (to include all MB'ers) could kick around the pros and cons all day...and I've already ran that tape through my head lots of times. But when it comes down to picking up the phone and possibly hitting the "start" button on renewing contact with her...well I'm finding that to be incredibly harder than I expected.

And..I am feeling much better today by the way. I am thinking of canceling my dr appointment this afternoon.

Georgia

Hi Georgia:

You know what?

If you have the time and energy, I think you would be really helpful to women here that want increased understanding of a man's perspective on Emotional Needs. You really have been helpful to me in gaining increased understanding of my H.

Just a thought.

HAPPY NEW YEAR! You sound more at peace.

When I was typing the last post I almost suggested that you ask your xw on a date...but then I thought better of it... that I could understand that you may be reluctant to go there again. I understand.

It is just that you thought you saw a glimpse of the wife you had loved when you had that conversation with her.

Did you see your sons much over the holidays?

Trix ...that was part of the discussion that I had with SH in my last discussion with him.

I had also considered a "date" and getting reaquainted, but he was careful to point out that we must reach an agreement on ground rules or were may be heading right back into the same quagmire.

Those ground rules would be NC with OM(#x) forever AND a one-on-one visit with her psychiatrist. She and I have not had such a discussion.

Georgia

oh...and to answer your last question.

I saw #1S/DIL before Christmas and had them over to my house for dinner (along with my parents). I didn't get to see #2S/DIL until New Years eve night when I was sick and they came by for a couple of hours around midnight.

I've seen #1S/DIL 2X since then and they brought me some soup for dinner one night.

Things are going well in the S/DIL dept. right now.

Georgia

Ah yes, I do recall that part of your last SH call. It has been a while now.

As The World Turns...

Ann called to tell me the ring was FedEx'd today.

And then continued to tell me she has been lonesome all day..her world has changed now and she thinks this must be one of the dumbest things she's ever done. We both had a big cry fest and I told her the invitation is still there.

This is SOOOOO hard...

She told me she is absolutely miserable...

Will there ever be a normal life again????

Georgia,


Just to be clear, I'm assuming that she meant that breaking the engagment was the dumbest thing... or did she mean something else?

You are living, Georgia. Being alive hurts sometimes. The more cautious ones of us don't suffer as much, nor do we enjoy as much or learn as much.

If you'll allow me to reminisce on your thread... I remember when I was engaged to my ex-wife and she called me one day - to say that she walked to the post office to send me "something", but when she got there it was closed. She said she was glad it was closed, because she had intended to return the ring. Several years later, that ring was thrown (by her) in the water at a major tourist attaction.

The contrast here - is that Ann is a mature, responsible person (as are you). She probably even gave you the tracking number. <grin>

Someday you will both laugh about all this - as friends or as something more.

Thank you also for reminding us of what SH said about starting a process with your ex-wife. My ex-wife often talks as if she wishes reconciliation were possible. Since she is expecting OM/H's baby in a few weeks, that is remarkable. And even more remarkable, is that I have an open mind on the subject. (This, I think, is an answer to prayer - since I am amazed to say that I feel no pain in relation to her situation) But, I will remember SH's prescription for you - and keep in mind that something similar would be required in my case.

-AD

Hi AD -

Yes, she meant breaking the engagement.

And..I think what SH said should hold true for any of us...

To attempt to restart a R with the same set of problems in place that lead to the break up in the first place is most assuredly just going to lead to more heartache and the same outcome.

Georgia

She knows you're one of the good guys, Georgia.

-AD

Hi Georgia Guy.

It's been a long time since I checked in on you, and now it's taken me a long time to read through this thread. Sorry to have been away so long.

I'm not going to "rehash" old conversations. The "past is the past" and we don't get to erase it and start over. We get to start from NOW and let a new future be built, hopefully having learned from the past.

So unless you ask for an opinion or comments, I am not going to "thrust" one upon you. All I am going to do is to ask you a couple of questions (ones that I know you've heard before, but may have a better perspective on now). I hope you will really think about this and that it will give you some direction.

Your timeframe or the Lord's timeframe?

Your will or God's will?


God bless.

I think that without some space and time away from Ann, your heart may not be open to start any process with your xw. I think that this breakup is probably for the best at this time...since there were doubts on several levels not the least of which involved that conversation with your xw.

Since you have still been in contact with Ann it makes you less likely to discern what is best in regards to the possibilities with your xwife.

I think that will still need to be sorted out before you can resume a relationship with Ann if one, in deed, becomes a reality in the future.

Good Morning all -

Thanks for the input.

It is an interesting thought that with the passage of time away from Ann that xW will start to look more appealing. I certainly do remember the intense emotions that overcame me when xW and I had that long conversation in November, but I must say that has diminished greatly now.

I am left to wonder sometimes have I become such an emotional creature ("wreck" may be a more descriptive term..) that I am blown so easily in which ever direction is avaiable? I know that's rhetorical...but still I wonder...And that is where FH's questions become germaine.

#1S called last night just to chat a while and ask my help on a home project. Such a blessing...

Oh...and I'm working on installing my new LCD TV that Santa brought. Small things going on outside the realm of the soap opera.

Georgia

Good evening every one....

To get right to the point, I called xW today and asked her to join me for dinner tomorrow night. It was a very short phone conversation...I just told her that I felt like we left the conversation hanging when we talked in November and we needed to finish it.

She had a really snotty attitude from the time she answered the phone...like she was mad before I called.

We are going to meet at a little Japanese place that we used to like. We ate their so much that the lady who owned the place would have our drinks waiting on us by the time we got in the door when she saw us drive up.

I haven't been there since we separated.

In other news.....

I have been traveling A LOT for work since the new year. I spent last week in Virginia, came back home for 2 days and was off to SW Florida. I just got home about an hour ago (I called xW on the way home).

Thank you all for continuing to care and pray for me. I have been going through a really hard time lately and I miss Ann tremendously.

Georgia

Georgia,

I've been thinking about you and wondering about you.

I can only imagine how difficult it is for you.

I'm sorry about your xw's attitude. Perhaps she expected you to call sooner - so she's been building up a resentment account just for you.

I can only guess.

Wishing you the best,

-AD

Will be praying for you today!
Take care.

Well...we had dinner together tonight. It was pleasant, we were both careful not to step into any land mines. I didn't ask her any important questions (like..."how's #2OM doing these days?") and we just had a casual dinner.

I can't say that I left there with any strong convictions that I need to pursue her any further.

And, I think I somewhat surprised myself at the lack of genuine emotions that I felt sitting across the table from her.

Has just so much time gone by that I just don't care for her anymore? Or is it those horrible memories that come back to my mind whenever I even allow myself to think of us getting back together?

I don't know..but I'm glad we are at least able to sit down and talk without getting into a fight.

Georgia

This has happened t me too, although I haven't sat down with WH yet. It's probably a defence mechanism. Let's see what Mimi says.

Anyway, it was a good rather than bad experience, and that's good.

FGG,

I think you will find, absent any efforts on her part, that you will find being with her like being with an old school friend. Lots of shared memories, but not much in common these days. Your life is your job, your dog, your home, your children and your future. The order will change.

Her life is her friends, her OM's, her children, and her future. Notice there is only ONE common touch point now...the children. And the children are leading their own lives with the need for either in their lives much less than it was. It is the way of things.

So how is your future looking? The job going good? Your hobbies looking interesting? Church starting to engage you again? The potential of new friends, new acquaintances, and possibly a new someone, interesting you again?

Take your time FGG, I am sure your future holds many surprises.

God Bless,

JL

I'm not sure what to think about it.

It's SCARES me to think that could happen...that I could ever sit across the table from my H and not feel any emotions...throughout all of this I can't say that I've ever felt that way...so I can't relate to that...maybe it means that my love bank was never emptied...

Then again, I think my H felt that way about me....for years not having any emotions.. when he was "in love" with the OW..but he fell "in love" with me again because he OPENED HIMSELF up to receiving love from me again...when I began addressing his needs...

I'm thinking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ....and I certainly may be wrong... that the Harleys might say that since.... LOVE IS A VERB... if BOTH Georgia and his wife made the decision to work on their relationship again..then there's a high likelikhood of RECOVERY...since they have such a long HISTORY together. However, they both would need to make that decision.

JL -

You make some very valid points and I appreciate that. Yes, I suppose it is true that maybe we're entering a phase now when our lives have started to diverge to the point that maybe we are losing those areas of common ground.

And, yes, my future looks very good if you're on the outside looking in. My job is doing very well...and keeping me very intellectually engaged (to the point that I don't know what I'm doing most of the time!). I love teaching my H.S. students, and my CASA case goes back to court on Thursday for the final ruling on disposition with the kids. Then, I'll be onto a new case. I'm enjoying the work on my house (which is getting nicer and nicer I might point out). Jeb still loves me.

But...the aloneness is haunting. I keep thinking of the words of someone here who posted about their sister who always has to see their worth through the eyes of a man. I question if I'm that way...why can't I be content and happy alone? I hate it...

Anyway...enough of that.

Mimi...

Here is my paradox. When xW and I talked in November, my heart raced, I had thoughts of the thrill of being back together, and even my beloved Ann seemed eclipsed by that one conversation with her.

Now...here I am 2 months later...and I can sit face to face with her and feel nothing. I wasn't excited (or scared or nervous or anything) on the way to the restaurant. My heart didn't "pitter patter" when she walked in the way it did right up until the day I decided to leave her. When I was standing at the counter ordering, I consciously looked over to where she was sitting and was thinking to myself that there was my wife of 29 years...and I felt nothing.

That really almost scared me...how have I become so emotionally dead that I can even say that? It makes me feel ...well... almost inhuman.

I'm not sure what to do from here. You are likely right...if we could come to a POJA and start all over again, then maybe there could be hope.

It would be so nice if she would VOLUNTARILY tell me that she has finally taken the NC with OM(#x)thing seriously without me having to ONCE MORE ask her. As you will recall, the answer to each previous query has been less than overwhelming.

Georgia

FGG,

A few comments. Being alone is just that. It cannot be replaced by something else. However, being alone romantically can be replaced by friends, and family (your kids). If you don't learn the difference it will be hard to truly appreciate a good woman in your life. Here is what I mean. If you have good friends, friends you enjoy dine with, do things with, often referred to "the guys" for a male, then you have no way to judge a romantic relationship.

You see if you are alone, ANYONE can seem good to you. But, if you have good friends and a life that revolves around your work, your friends, your church, your hobbies, then it will take someone very special to make you want to foresake those things for this person. Do you see what I am driving at? I hope so.

You cannot be happy alone, until you see the worth of it. Once you do that, you will be able to compare and more adequately see the value of a romantic relationship, which should lead to a very grounded and rewarding relationship.

The woman in your life to date have been there because YOU were trying to fill a void. Perhaps they were as well. But, someone that just fills a void is NOT necessarily a good choice. You need someone that not just fills a void but actually ADDS to your life, brings to it many things that just a friend could not do.

That is why people often counsel others to wait a year before becoming involved or even trying to become involved with another person. You never gave yourself that year. You were looking to fill the void. That is unfair to you and the other person. Learn to enjoy your aloneness. Learn to relish it. And learn to make friends, good friends. In short make a life that someone would like to join. Not just to fill a void.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

You comment on your response to Mimi. You don't feel anything for your W because she has not made any deposits in your love bank. In fact, all she has done for the last 6 years of marriage and the time after the marriage is make withdrawals. Sooooo, why are you surprised that you feel so little. Had she followed up the Nov. contact with any indications that she cared, or had changed, or simply saw a few things differently then perhaps you might. But, she did not and this was/is a major withdrawal from the LB.

Not a surprise, it is just things working normally. You know that 29 years of marriage meant little to her, and now you are beginning to accept it.

Hang in there FGG, your day and time is coming. Just be prepared for it and you will do well.

God Bless,

JL

When I see my Ex from across a room, or sitting in his car, I feel like I barely recognize him.

My Love Bank was drained even before the D was final. So when he made that feeble attempt at reconciliation about 6 months after the D, my first thought was "oh great. NOW he wants to reconcile, and I have nothing left" but I wanted to try -for the kids. After a couple of weeks of phone calls, couple of dates, I did start to feel an ever so slight return of my feelings. So I know, for me, it would have been possible to restore those feelings. But as it turned out, for him, his A was a reflection of a new life style he had completely embraced, and was not going to give up. So we stopped the feeble attempt to reconcile, and just moved on from there.

In my opinion - if you did decide to reconcile, you certianly could restore those feelings. 15 hours spent together each week - sharing care and concern for each other, that sort of thing would build "that loving feeling". But without the effort - you will continue to feel like she is simply someone you once knew.

As far as the lonliness - it is ok to feel "bad" about being alone. I don't think anyone really likes it. But you are doing a lot of the right stuff - traveling, taking classes, volunteer work. While you are doing these things, your healing is happening. You heal, you grow, you figure out what sort of things you like to do, and what you don't like to do. Try to look for those opportunites to take advantge of your single-ness. example - going on a 2 week mission trip to Biloxi. That is something a single guy can do - you don't have to worry about leaving a wife at home alone for 2 weeks. But someday you will be married again, and you will have to consider your wifes feelings before you could do something like that.

It is good to be married, and have someone to come home to at night. And that will happen for you again.
But it is also good to have the freedom to just pick up and go wherever you want, whenver you want. So try to enjoy that while you can. And while you are enjoying it, you will also be building a stronger, healthier GG.

JL: I can agree with Georgia's love bank being depleted..but I don't believe that 29 years of marriage MEANT LITTLE to her...I don't see how Georgia could ever ACCEPT THAT..my opinion....

Mimi,

Well, I don't know. It meant so little that she had 2 affairs. the second of which she would not give up the OM to save her marriage. I am certain there were some very good times in their marriage, and FGG remembers them. What I have doubts about is that she recalls them at all given the 6 years of her affairs and justification, and very likely the continued justification of her affairs in her head.

She has never once said she was sorry, and she never once told FGG that she wanted him over her contact with OM.

I think FGG has little else to do but think that 29 years of marriage meant little to her, especially at the end. His view of it is entirely different, of course.

I am not trying to vilify her. I just think that the opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. She was indifferent to him and continues to be. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Hard thing to do, but in reality the data seems to indicate her indifference.

How are you doing Mimi?

God Bless,

JL

Hello all -

Okay, to settle the JL / Mimi dispute.

First, to clarify a point of fact, in the phone conversation in Nov. she did in fact as me to forgive her for what she has done. No mention of OM.

She TOLD me that the 29 years of marriage meant nothing to her, but I have chosen (and continue to choose to do so) not to believe that. As you may recall, when she told #2S the samething, he came to me and said "Dad...you know that mom was very happy. Even I know that.".

Yes, I think the 29 years meant a lot to her. And, actually, I think that she now is coming to realize that more and more. But...she still (IMO) is too stubborn to do anything about it beyond throwing me a bread crumb from time to time hoping that I'll start nibbling again.

She still doesn't get that the NC letter I told her about on Dec. 6, 2004 is still the key...IF (and that is a HUGE if) there is even a key to be had any more.

Georgia

In addition to all that JL et al said as to the reasons for being rather indifferent to your XW, I think that your feelings for Ann are still a factor.

No matter....the crux is still, as you said, FGG, that your XW still hasn't fulfilled the requirements set forth in your plan B letter.

Good Morning all -

Last night @ 11:00 PM my phone rang and it was xW. It was this very, very distant sounding (kind of detached) voice. She started asking me how I was doing, how are my parents, have I been traveling much, etc. etc. Almost like an interrogation. I tried to be pleasant and just chat with her.

Then she asked about my social life. I asked her what she meant and she asked if I was dating anyone. I told her that I didn't think it was wise if we discussed with each other such matters.

She told me that there were 2 men who were pursuing her and she wasn't sure what to do. I asked her if OM#2 is still in the picture and she said he is just a friend and that I made a big issue out of nothing. I suggested to her that if she starts to see another man she should let him know about OM#2 immediately or she is going to find herself right back in the same mess again.

She hung up....

After the "I'm sorry" discussion in November, I really thought she was beginning to recognize that her actions may have been inappropriate. But last night I heard the exact same tired message....there is nothing wrong with me and OM having this relationship and you're just making a big deal out of nothing....

Go back into that sort of relationship? I don't think so...

Georgia

Nor should you...I don't think anyone thinks you should be back in a relationship with your XW as long as she keeps her entitled WS state of mind. She seems to think she can do no wrong. I am sorry.

Be well.

Even I agree that she's sounds NUTS...

Hope you are out there ENJOYING LIFE...

We are on the other side of it now...

After my car accident on Sunday, I've really been thinking that life is MUCH, MUCH TOO SHORT TO WASTE ANYTIME OF IT...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

WHAT!!!???

I haven't been reading along...you were in an accident?

I hope you are okay...sounds like you are...

FGG:

Cripes!

I feel very sorry for her.

-ol' 2long

Hi 2Long....

I did one of those LONG posts before lunch only to have it disappear on me. Don't you hate that??

I'll try again...

Mimi...I've read your "accident" thread. It is very touching...your "big strong man" (words you have used in the past) crying over you like that. Very tender indeed! (Glad you and H and both okay).

Okay....my update (for all)....

I am staying really busy with CASA stuff. I took a 2nd case thinking that case #1 was going to be over last trip to court. Surprise! It's been rescheduled and disputed and all this other stuff...so now I've got 2 very active CASA cases going on!

And...my Sunday School class is very enjoyable. These kids (High School) are a real joy to me and I get alot out of teaching their class.

Work is going well and I have been doing a lot of traveling. I was in Dallas the first 1/2 of this week, I will be home for a week, then off to Phoenix. I will be home for 3 days then off to Illinois for a week.

And..yes..I am dating someone ("June" we shall call her). A mutual friend told me 3X that she had a friend that I should meet. I wasn't real anxious, but after her third prompting I called her. We were on the phone a long time and she seemed really nice, so we had dinner and got along quite well.

The theme of our relationship is "sloooowwww...." (I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree but even I can learn from my mistakes!). I have just finished reading "Dating with Boundaries" by Drs. Townsend / Cloud and she is reading it now.

June is a very mature and well-grounded Christian lady (54 y.o.). She was married 20 years, has been divorced 8. Her husband ran off with a Russian mail order bride (how's that for strange?). She has 3 grown and married kids, 4 grandkids. I've met the 2 oldest kids and all 4 gk's.

She lives about 20 miles from me and attends a church of my same denomination. She has used her abilities (nurse) for some mission work and would like to consider early retirement to go into some sort of full time mission activities, be it here locally or elsewhere.

She came to our home Bible study last night (first time) and it was really nice to have her there.

My relationship with #1S/DIL is quite good now. They know I am seeing June but I've not invited them to meet her...we're not to that point yet. I am having dinner with #2S/DIL tonight and will tell them, but I don't expect them to be too thrilled about it.

All in all...life is good and I am happy.

I have finished remodeling my hall as well as hanging my LCD TV that Santa brought me. This includes building a cabinet around it to disguise it when not in use. I only have one bedroom left to remodel then I am totally done with my house.

Jeb says HI to everyone...

Georgia