Quick background: D and I are not married. Were together for almost 5 years before I packed up his things after I had caught him, for the third time in 4 months, with the same woman. The straw that broke this camel's back was when he stayed out all night and most of the next day. Yes, he was with her. I spoke with him and could hear in in the background, calling him "babe". She also called me and gave me an earful about there nocturnal activities. He came home to all his belongings in the driveway. That was September 17 of last year.

I still love him very, very much. He says he loves me too, but is afraid of trying again and things not working out. Our biggest issue is trust (obviously). He has a history of lying. He's the type that doesn't like to say no to anybody. He overextends himself and then lies to cover up his inability to meet the obligation he commited to. It can be anything from financial to helping out a friend. He doesn't like to look bad, so he'll lie to cover up his goofs. The constant lying led to anger and withdrawal on my part. I completely pulled away. I was a nasty witch to him and he could do nothing right. Because of the way I was acting, he thought I was cheating on him with an old friend of mine. It's a long story, but suffice it to say that some badly timed comments on my part had his brain working overtime and coming up with some wild stuff. He turned to someone else, who made him feel good about himself. He betrayed me in the worst possible way.

I know I lost his trust in me when I withdrew and was not the loving, caring partner he had wanted to spend his life with. I compounded that when I left him feeling that he could never "win" over my long-time friendship with "Todd". We had numerous fights over D's claims that Todd wanted more than just friendship with me. I minimized his feelings and blew him off. When we fought about Todd, it was always when we were fighting about his lies. I saw it as a diversionary tactic, mixed in with some jealousy, and disregarded what he was saying. My arrogance in believing MY concerns to be more important than his, caused considerable damage. I know this...now.

Anyway, during the course of one of our many disputes over Todd, I offered to tell him each and every time I had any communication with Todd. D turned the offer down, and I didn't give it a second thought....only to be accused, much later, of sneaking around and hiding my relationship with Todd.

So, now that we're talking about trying to resolve our issues and get back together, I recognize that I need to let the friendship with Todd go. D's suspicions about Todd wanting more that friendship were spot on. Despite Todd's best efforts contact me, I've ignored all calls and text messages. Today, I tried to talk to D about it, just to let him know I'm keeping him "in the loop". He made me feel pretty stupid. He basically told me that there was nothing he could do about it and it didn't matter how I handled it. He's of the opinion that eventually, contact will be resumed. He's got a pretty fatalistic attitude, which is really irritating the he!! out of me. He can be so negative. I need some direction on how to respond to him. He's hard-headed. I have more success than most when it comes to getting him to see reason, but it sure wears on me. I often find myself feeling I'm [email]d@mned[/email] if I do and [email]d@mned[/email] if I don't.

OB1, please read the links in my sig line - especially the first one. I think they will explain to you exactly what you are dealing with. And please do not even consider marriage with this man.

Good luck.
Mulan

Dump this loser before you make a terrible mistake and have kids with him.

Passive-aggressive is D to a T. It's scary to see it all in writing. [email]D@mn[/email] if I don't love the man. I wish there was a cure-all drug for this. In speaking with him today, after being made to feel stupid for telling him about Todd's attempts at contact, I threw it out there that maybe he was laying the groundwork for justification of any contact he may have with OW. I said it partly out of anger and partly because I believe this to be true. If *I* fall first, then it's ok if he does it. KWIM?

I called him back shortly after and told him, with a mild tone, that what I'm getting from his comments is that, since we're not together, his position is my life is my business and not his concern. From how he's phrasing his words, I'm to assume that he doesn't care what I do. He again got irritated and said he didn't have time to argue with me. Who's arguing? He's supposed to call me after work. I'm looking for ways to broach the subject WITHOUT arguing. He gets so defensive that everything becomes me wanting to argue....which is not so. To his credit, he is doing better at holding his temper and curbing his tongue. He can be pretty hurtful and mean-spirited when he lets his anger control his mouth.

It's not as simple as that. Married or not, I made a commitment to him that I intended to be permanent. I do love him and am not ready to give up. I have a 6 y/o son that calls him daddy, and he knows no different. D has been a terrific father and loves my little boy to death. For all sakes and purposes, regardless of DNA, this little boy is OUR child. I don't believe D is a lost cause.

Anyone? Does anyone have any suggestions or "script" on how to respond to a fatalist's comments?

Typical comments from D:
There's too much damage.
I can *never* be around your family again.
*It* makes no difference. (his favorite)

It goes on and on. The last few weeks, he's slowly gone from those comments dominating our conversations, to saying he would like to resolve our issues and find the middle ground. Yet, the comments still surface.

It's in that first link in my sig line. And there is much, much more about how to deal with Passive/Aggresive behaviour in the second link. What you seek is in both of those links.
Mulan

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I guess I was looking for a shortcut, huh? I did read the first link, about the Boomerang Relationship. I started on the MB thread and stopped after the first page. I'll go back and read.

Thanks!

Is OB1=ohbratti1? Isn't ohbratti1 an OW who had a child with a married man? Is "D" the MM who fathered your child?

Oh boy, the skeleton popped out. You're partly right. Technically, my label would be "OW". My whole story is on the Pregnancy/child board. I was an unknowing OW who promptly ended the relationship with the MM upon finding out he was married. No, my little guy is not D's bio child. xMM was almost 7 long years ago. I came to MB in my third trimester and made some great friends on the P/C board. When I showed up there, I was hurting over a situation that I didn't want and would have never chosen for myself. I was seeking understanding/answers, and I got them there. I met D and had a terrific relationship with a man who embraced my baby as his own. After awhile, I drifted away from the board (maybe 2 years ago). Now I'm back, dealing with the other side of the coin....being the betrayed.

If you like, I can go into more detail here, but it would probably be easier if you searched for my old threads. I think they date back to the fall of 2000.

I just realized what I did. I had created "OB1" back in September. When the boards changed, I had trouble logging in as ohbratti1. Coming back in September, it was easier to re-register. I'm ohbratti1 wherever I go, so when I got home from work, I automatically signed in as such. Am I making any sense?

Thanks for the clarification, OB1! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dang, now that I'm "outed", I better go over to P/C and say my hellos.

I hope you will seriously look at your life, and the men you choose. First you had a MM, and now one who hasn't married you, and was cheating on you. You can make up all kinds of excuses for the guy - good father, etc., but in the end, I think you are not getting the type of man who will treat you like you deserve to be treated.

Please don't think I am criticising you. I have been there too.

Can you expand on this? I welcome constructive criticism. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I hate to label a person's character traits as "excuses". I absolutely do not excuse the bad choices he made. But just like my label of "OW" didn't define me or my life, I would hate to think that a "WS" will forever be defined as a "WS". There are many qualities that factor into who a person is. Who that person becomes, as time goes on, is a work in progress. Just as there are people who will choose to not change bad character traits, there are those who do. If a D shows a willingness to try, then I'm not ready to give up on him. I'm sure I have a limit, I just haven't reached it yet.

We talked again. Either I handled it very well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> or he's coming along. He actually listened. He DID feel attacked when I made the comment about his paving the way to justify potential future contact with OW. I explained that he didn't give me a chance to finish what I was saying and that I actually had a point I was coming to. I went on to explain that I was concerned that he/I would fall into old tit for tat behaviors. I didn't want to repeat that destructive behavior. It was important for us to take steps to safeguard our relationship and regain the trust we lost. Yes we would make mistakes, but it was our job to recognize the mistakes, stop the behavior and make amends. He enthusiastically agreed.

I fully understand his insecurity and jealousy over Todd. I didn't want to repeat my past mistake of not keeping him informed of what, if anything, was going on with Todd. I had done that before and it came back to bite me in the a$$. Instead, I preferred to keep him aprised, even if he felt it was unimportant. Better for me to provide the information and let him sort it for importance than for me to decide for him and make the wrong choice. I'll tentatively say that I think he understood my intent behind telling him about the phone calls and text messages.

We're supposed to get together on Thursday night and talk about "stuff". With his schedule, it's hard to pin him down. Several times he has made plans to talk face to face, only to have them unravel due to his job demands. He's a firefighter/paramedic who is currently working as a medic for a mobile physician service, working for a helicopter ambulance service AND attending a fire academy for a different fire district. One of the PA markers...he's a workaholic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hello OB1,

Seen any good Star Wars movies lately? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Seriously, I think you missed the importance of what was asked you.

If my memory recalls, you unknowingly started to date a man that was married, and become pregnant by him.

I am not sure if you were ever married, but I don't recall that was the case.

Now you date for 6 years or so a man that has cheated on you several times.

You also keep a man named Todd, in the background.

I think the question was do you see anything wrong with your choices so far? It is easy to love someone, it is much harder to find someone that really fits you and has your goals, ambitions and moral outlook.

I don't think you have found that man yet, although you and D are talking again. Have you really sat down and defined what you want in a man? Don't you have older children as well? Where are they? With you?

I think before you decide to respond or further build this relationship, you really need to take some inventory and see what it would take for you to actually trust D, not just love him. Then is he really the right man to play a role in the development of your children?

Just some questions, I look forward to your answers.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I am sorry you are back her for this reason but I hope all here can help you.

I guess I jumped in with the middle of my story. Yes, JL, you're correct about my prior relationship with a MM. No, I've not been married. It was a choice and I said no. For the longest time, I had an aversion to the permanancy that marriage implied. I wanted kids, just not the marriage. Commitment-phobic? Probably...yes. With D came a change in me on my views on marriage...marriage for me, that is. D didn't have multiple affairs. He had one affair with one woman. I caught him 3 times, during the course of us trying to work through it, before I packed up his things. I tried to work it out with him still in the house, but I couldn't handle the meltdowns that ensued after each discovery of the continuation of their relationship. For someone who wasn't prone to crying and having emotional meltdowns, I was a wreck.

As for Todd, he's a friend I've known for over 12 years. Our sons became fast friends when they were little tykes. My friendship with Todd came as a result. We weren't "best friends", but we have been pretty good friends throughout the years. We would hang out, he would come for dinner, or we would take the kids out. To me, it was no different than hanging out with a girlfriend. Because my friendship with Todd preceded my relationship with D, I carried on with it unchanged. D had issues with that, so I scaled back on my "Todd time". I never saw it as excessive to begin with, but I tried to appease D and his growing dislike of my friend. That dislike has grown into a fullblown, mutual hate of one another.

Is D the right man for me? I thought he was. We have shared goals/ambitions. As for moral outlook... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. I'm on shaky ground here. I have 3 children and have never been married. Does this make me immoral? I'm honest to a fault. I'm a hard-working woman who honors her word, stands by her family and is working hard to raise 3 boys into decent, honorable men. I have the respect of my friends, family and co-workers for being a "straight arrow" that is reliable and trustworthy. However, I can be liberal in my views. Do I believe in the sanctity of marriage? ABSOLUTELY! When I was young(er), I wanted kids, but not the marriage. I wasn't ready for that. I didn't want to make a wrong choice and have a failed marriage. So I had the kids sans the marriage. Now, at 37, I feel I'm ready. However, the relationship with the man I chose to spend my life with, has deteriorated. We both had fault. D made the choice to cheat, but I played a role in the breakdown in the relationship that lead him in that direction.

Is loving D enough? Can I trust him again? I think that the trust can be regained. What do I need for that to happen? I need him to be an open book. I need for him to be straight with me about anything and everything. I need reassurance that he is where he's supposed to be. That one is tricky. With his work schedule, he's away from home quite a bit. I believe in the concept of radical honesty, and I need Damon to believe in it too. Without it, our relationship will continue to flounder.

You were always one to probe and get the brain-juices flowing, JL. I need to think. I need to sort. I haven't always made the wisest of choices. I would hate to think that D was a bad choice. We've had our ups and downs, but this last year has been especially hard. There's alot to look at in our relationship and why it went the way it did...things that pre-date the affair and the sharp decline in our relationship. Alot of the issues are Damon's and were actually not within his control. I didn't help matters.

Two years ago, D was in a car accident that prevented him from working. D is a proud man who defines himself by his job. Being a firefighter/paramedic is something he loves. As months passed and he was unable to return to his job with the fire department, I saw him sinking. I've been in Work Comp for over 10 years. I know that depression is a common, secondary illness following a long period of disability. Injured workers that are permanently disabled and deemed unable to return to their job, go into pretty severe depressions. D fell into this category. He faced spinal surgery that would likely categorize him as a "qualified injured worker", subject to rehabilitation/retraining. Translation, he would NOT be able to return to the work he loved. That was the pivot point. That's when the sharp decline in our relationship started. I grew more and more frustrated with him and his lying. I lashed out, was disrespectful, and emotionally withdrew from him. This lead him to believe I was having an affair with....yep....Todd. In his crazy thinking, he felt justified to seek emotional support outside of our relationship, with another woman. I noticed his withdrawal from me. His demeanor changed. He was indifferent and spent less and less time at home. He buried himself in his secondary job as a medic for a mobile physicians company. That time away from me and from home allowed him time to nurture a "friendship" with a woman connected through his job. That EA became a PA within 6 months.

There's more, but it's a lot to type in one sitting.

OB...

I think you are very wise to recognize when things started to turn negative... the accident and such. I hope that D is the type of man who can see this as well, and not simply place blame elsewhere.

I live with the sort of man who places blame with everyone else..mostly me. I appreciate your intelligence in handling this and agree with you that sometimes the past decisions we have made define us in a positive way when we learn from them.

I surely wish you well...and am sending you strength.

Eibrab

OB1,

If your basic philosophy is to NOT get married, then perhaps your decisions are somewhat consistent with your actions. That is what I was trying to get at. If you really deep down want the responsibility of marriage and a relationship, perhaps it is time to let this relationship go.

I realize there are complicating circumstances such as your youngest being attached to D, but in reality he will leave sooner or later. He has problems himself. You have a reluctance to marry and given the events that have occured, it seems likely.

I guess I am saying this because even when people make vows and promises in a marriage they fail them, but the NEED for commitment and a willingness to "forsake" all others are part of those vows. Your friendship with Todd, while in and of itself of no deep form, threatened D. Further, I am sure he feels/felt diminished by his own travails, thus the presence of Todd threatened him. You did not see this becuase I suspect you were feeling "I am my own woman, I can whoever I want as friends." Reasonable but not very good for a relationship and certainly not for a marriage.

I know this sound as if I am bashing you, but I am not. I am hoping to get you to see that your decisions and future decisions have been and need to be based on your beliefs. Whether I approve of them or not is really of no moment.

The issues you have mentioned between you and D, seem consistent to me with someone or a couple that is NOT commited to the relationship wholeheartedly. They really were not mistakes in that they violated how you two thought, although they were mistakes in that both of you ended up hurt.

I realize that you are now thinking that marriage might be a good idea. And I would ask you what you think marriage would provide you now that it would not have years ago? It seems to me you need to be clear on this, in order to make some decisions regarding D. By the same token, he needs to really review his thinking as well.

I don't agree with his solution to the problems he was facing, the A, but he did have a problem and you were part of it. How would he handle it today? Seems to be a good question to ask. What has changed and how has he changed also seems to be a good question to ask?

You see I am not looking at the affair as the issue. I don't even think trust is the real issue. I think that you two have not sat down and really discussed how you see life, what you want out of life, how you value yourselves, and what you need and expect from a relationship, up to and including marriage.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

You state that in present tense. My comment above was stated in the past tense. In my twenties, I was not ready or wanted to be married. By the time I entered into my relationship with D, that was changing. In the course of the relationship, I found myself wanting it.

Not being ready does not signify a reluctance. I simply wasn't ready for that level of commitment. Everything in its place and time.

I absolutely, 100% agree with you. I had not completely switched gears to that of a marriage-minded, commitment oriented person. I was still acting in my old ways, as a 20-something y/o who answered to no one. I truly believed I was not causing any harm and did not recognize anything wrong with my behavior. It took me a bit to really open my eyes. It took D repeatedly saying that he felt I had chosen Todd over him before I started to see what he was really saying. I did not take the steps necessary to safeguard my relationship and "forsake" all others. I insisted in maintaining my friendship because I was "doing nothing wrong". That caused D to feel that his feelings did not matter...that HE did not matter, which was not my intention. Intention/perception...ouch.

Nah. I have faults. I know I do. I can't always see them.

Funny thing is, D made the same statement about me. I guess I wanted the prize and was willing to put in the work, but I hedged on the compromising and/or sacrificing. I wanted it MY way.

Not just recently thinking about marriage. I've known for awhile (years). In my twenties, I was not ready to make a lifelong committment to someone. Years ago, I had not the desire for the steady, long-term companionship of one person. I didn't want to be bound. That was how I viewed it. I hadn't met someone I wanted that with.

These are things that need to be discussed. Hopefully we'll have the opportunity real soon.

OB1,

I should add, that I wasn't ready to be married in my 20's either, hence I waited until my 30's. I was engaged at 21, but the lessons learned from that clearly showed I was not ready and that I did NOT need the type of woman my fiance turned out to be.

But, I think we are agreeing that you both really need to think about what relationships, marriage and such mean to you and what each of you expects. I do believe that will help you to determine your course of action with regard to D, and his course of action with regard to you.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

Todd has been calling a lot. I sent him a quick email to explain that I wanted to focus on my relationship issues and try to resolve them. I asked for the space I needed to do this. He's now resorting to having his son call to try and get me on the phone. It's freaking me out a bit. He's NEVER acted like this before.

Opinions? Advice?

OB1,
Could you block his phone number? I mean, from what you've said, you told him you need to concentrate on your relationship with D. Maybe you need to take more concrete action and tell him that because you are working on your R with D, that you HAVE to go NC with him. Lay it down just like a NC letter. In many ways, this is VERY similar to an EA, whether it's onesided or not. If Todd is a "true" friend, he will understand and abide your wishes. Who cares if you were friends BEFORE D came into your life. For yourself, it was always just a friendship. It sounds as if D was right about Todd's motives since he's trying everything to get your attention now that you've decided what you wish to do. It is unhealthy for you and your R with D having Todd pushing his way into your lives. No matter what, someone is going to get hurt. If you truly love D as you say you do, then you need to stand by him, and continue to repair that R.

Good luck!

I can't block his number. He has my work, cell and home phone. I'm screening the calls as best I can, but he's getting sneaky. He's using his son to call me and is also transferring in on my work line. Thankfully I've been busy and haven't had time to answer the work phone very much. My co-workers have been pretty good about letting me know "that" guy is calling again. I didn't want to end my friendship with him on a bad note, but if I have to tell him to "get lost", then I'll have to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I was hoping to avoid that kind of scene.

It worries me that he's become aggressive like this. He's NEVER acted like this before. I'm not sure what to make of it. This is not the predictable friend I know him to be. The night before last, he got through to my son on the house phone and was questioning him about Damon, wanting to know if he was harrassing me. Todd has a real hate on for Damon. They've both expressed desire to beat the crap out of each other. I DON'T want this to escalate. That was the main reason I kept the two apart in the past...more because of D's volatile temper when it comes to Todd. Damon's idea of handling this problem involves hand and fist. Todd's more even-tempered, but would not hesitate to oblige Damon. I don't want either of them hurt, especially over something like this. D carries on like there was a full-blown affair with Todd, when I never did anything different with him than what I would have done with one of my best girls.

Tig, I can see what you're saying about the EA. I have to chew on that. Actually, no I don't, come to think of it. Todd is not my focus/concern. D is. For me, there was nothing more than friendship. Part of resolving things with D means letting that friendship go. Todd will have to accept that.

BTW, how's Abby? The family? Sailorman?

Yes, I'm afraid that this friendship will have to end, and like yesterday by the sounds of Todd's obsessive behavior! By the EA, I wasn't implying that YOU were in an EA, but that Todd IS. They've made so many movies just on this topic, one that comes to mind is "My Best Friend's Wedding" only the roles are reversed here. The one side is friendship, but the other is a deep hidden love. When the one who is in love with the other, and it's not returned, but given to someone else, things escalate. I think that's exactly what's happened to you and your friendship with Todd. He is NOT being a friend, but a possible danger to you and your children! If D is your focus, you need to tell Todd straight out how it really is(by the way, you might wish to edit your posts if you wish to keep it as "D", since you've mentioned his name a couple times)

One way you can "prove" to D that you are NOT having any type of A with Todd is to have D help you with a NC/boundaries letter. Just as a H and W would do, you need to at least broach this subject with D. And, when you do, don't come at it like you are only doing this to prove to him that you aren't involved with Todd. You need to do it because you want to and you want to save this R with D. You are walking on egg shells with Todd, trying not to upset him, when you need to completely focus on D. I really hope that this works out for you!

As for Abbi, Sailorman and the rest of the family, well, Sailorman is on deployment, but we are past the half way point and he will be home soon. Abbi is growing by leaps and bounds! Still wears glasses and had surgery 3 years ago. Our older children are doing very well. In fact, we have been reunited with our birthdaughter this past year! So, overall we are doing great. It sucks being seperated like this, but we know it has an end and its coming up very soon.

Keep us updated!

Get out! Tigger, that's great! I know that was a tough choice for you. I wanna hear ALL about it.

As for Todd, my approach (or lack of) to this is obviously not working. I'm trying to keep D in the know. In the past, when I didn't tell him something (with his ok), it came back to bite me in the butt. He wasn't honest with me about his feelings and what he wanted. At times, he makes me feel dumb when I tell him what's going on...like it makes no difference to him, yet I KNOW it does. I know it by the bad reaction I get whenever Todd comes up.

Have you guys filled out the EN questionares? He may need reassurance, and whether he acknowledges it or not, it helps him know that you care enough about how it really makes him feel if you let him know what's going on. I still think a big boost would be to end your friendship with Todd. Especially since Todd keeps breaking the boundaries.

As for our reunion, email me at **edit** I don't think I have your email addy anymore.

OB1,

My thoughts are that you should craft a NC letter to Todd, he is proving to NOT be the friend you thought, perhaps D saw that in him. Then show it to D for him to read and approve. After that mail the letter to Todd, with Yours and D's signatures on it, if D will sign it.

Keep a copy of it in case you need to obtain a restraining order on Todd. Him going through his child and YOUR child to contact you when you have said you don't want a contact, is NOT a good thing.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL