Edit: My original story covered some ground and others have posted their own stories and take. Kids are one of the most important, if not THE most important dynamic associated with affairs. The negative impact on kids no matter how information is fed to them is pretty clear.

So what is your story? Tell us please. By telling how you handled telling the kids, or not could helps someone else; or how about from your own childhood - what happened and how did you take it as a kid?

________________

Tell the kids? Maybe. So what do you tell them and how? Hey, you can't come out and say something like, "Kids, mommie and the next door nieghbor are playing doctor and daddie is mad." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

This was on Davethebrewers thread. I thought it deserved a thread of its own. In my opinion, this is a hot topic.

A couple of someones posted that Harley said tell the kids or that Harley would recommend it. Well maybe. I am no expert on all of Harley's stuff, only what I have read to date. The exact Harley comment is shown below

Harley's words were not carved in granite. The email quoted in Longhorn's reference in Dave's thread was a post by 2334pem that was specifically about long term affairs being treated differently where he/she asked Harley (somehow) and Harley replied.

Here is exactly what Harley said (in part):


This is by no means a diatribe on all of the ramifications of exposing to children. Children are included in a list.

I submit that this needs more addressing than 'Harley says," and that is THAT! I mean no disrespect by saying this. Children are a special case by any definition and we have to stop, look and think before we do something to the kids as harmful as the affair itself might turn out to be.

Here is what Dave had to say.


Here I think Dave has his thinking cap on. Using the kids as a weapon is a cheap, very cheap tactic best reserved for the temporarily insane like affairees. And they do it, all the time. When you are attempting to sit on the high ground, you gotta look around and make sure there are no pointy things sticking out that might getcha.

Before exposure to kids, I can think of a ton of stuff to consider; Is mom/dad still in the house, what level of insanity do they exhibit, how old are the kids, how mature are the kids, what is the affairee telling the kids, what is the level of tension????

Even more important, exactly what do you say? Well that depends as well. Oh yea, we always have the catchall "Age appropriate" thing. I personally wouldn't be able to always style age appropriate if you put a gun to my head.

So there you have another consideration, how good are you at explaining to kids?

In my opinion, this is a hot topic, worthy of just about anyone weighing in with thoughtful opinions. One size fits all isn't the way to go here, in my opinion. Maybe exposure is the right thing to do with kids, maybe not.

Ok, pundits, have at it.

Larry

I know that kids should never be used as a weapon. But they deserve the truth. One poster said that her mom yelled at her dad about his infidelity in front of her, and it was very harmful.

I'm old now, but when I was 6 my dad left home every night after I was in bed, and returned around 1:00AM. I used to stay up, looking out the window crying until he came home. My parents never knew. It turned out that he WAS having an affair. I found out when I was grown. I knew something awful and dangerous was happening to our family, and was very depressed about it. This went on for a year.

So my belief is that children should be told the truth. Kids are smart, and KNOW. But the adults are trying to shield them from the truth.

Also the WS is usually not very careful, and not thinking about protecting the kids. They almost always think it is wonderful for the kids to be "friends" with the affair partner. That puts the kids in the horrible position of having to LIE to the other parent.

Secrets are bad for families and kids.

Larry:

Interesting topic.

OW called my house and spoke to my (then) 12 Y.O. son on Dday. OW thought she was talking to W. Do not know to this day exactly what she said.

W told son, in front of me, that "Dad has a girl friend, and we are dealing with it"

Yea, I was proud of myself at that moment.

If, my A had continued past that date, my son would have gotten alot more info about his daddy's actions.

But it ended, and he has a different role model now.

I will answer your question however. Tell the kids? Yes.

Especially if the person in the A is spending hours and days away from the house. Because the kids will come up with thier own answers, that are not true and can never be validated, but can be carried for many years.

They deserve the "age-appropriate" truth.

JMHO. From one side of the fence. Since we are leaning on it at the moment...

What "ramifications," Larry? I know of none. Can you CITE THEM? On the other hand, I can cite the ramifications of lying to children. If you listen to Dr. Harley on the radio you would have heard him TELL ME PERSONALLY that he "always recommends exposure to the betrayed spouse and THE CHILDREN." [yes, I called him about this email]

He speaks often about how this exposure to HIM as a child changed his life and SHAPED his own outlook about adultery. He says that since he was guided through his fathers adultery he was able to SEE FIRST HAND the devastation wrought by his fathers adultery. This lesson has prevented him from committing adultery himself and taught him that marriages can be restored.

As a child who grew up with a father who was a serial cheater, I can personally attest to how damaging it is to LIE to children about adultery. As a young girl, I KNEW what was going on, but since no adult would VALIDATE my feelings of right and wrong, I grew to doubt my own instincts and grew up believing that I must be a very stupid girl since no one else saw what seemed so apparent to me. As a result, I grew up MORALLY CONFUSED becuase nothing made any sense.

Adultery has a profound effect on children and parents have an OBLIGATION to guide children through this trauma. It is PARENTAL OBLIGATION to give children MORAL GUIDANCE, not manufacture lies about parental misbehavior to protect bad behavior. Children are not made secure by believing lies about parents.

Anyway, I know of NO harmful "ramifications" from telling the truth, but I DO KNOW of ramifications from telling children LIES. Dr. Harley is a licensed psychologist and this is HIS forum, after all, so I believe I will stand by his advice. He has not led me wrong yet.

Great post, LG, and I agree 100%. Kids can and DO come up with their own answers if left to their own devices. I know that I sure did when I was a little girl. My answer was that I must be very stupid since the adults in my life were SILENT about the wrongdoing I saw. Apparently, what seemed so wrong to me, was not wrong to THEM. Very morally confusing to a child.

I will post my response that I made to Larry on the other thread:

Larry, I don't think telling the kids the truth about the facts concerning their lives is "using the kids as a weapon," but rather informing and guiding them through some very volatile, turbulent times in their lives. Children need moral guidance more than ever in these situations. They can't be guided if they are lied to.

When I speak of "age appropriate" [and I have heard Dr. Harley use this very term] I am thinking of speaking to them at their age level, which I think most adults can figure out. They know their child's maturity level better than anyone and would know what to say to their own child to help them understand adultery.

What we say to a 12 yr old will obviously be different than what we say to a 7 yr old who barely understands the concept of marriage. So I think the term "age appropriate" is pretty self explanatory. I don't think most folks have a problem understanding that concept, I know I sure don't.

Yes, tell them... it helps them understand and they do not deserve to be kept in the dark.

If you don't give your children the truth, they will make up their own version, and usually, when left on their own like that, they decide that it must have something to do with them.

My son is currently dealing with all of this, and I AM telling him the truth, in such a way that he understands. This IS very tough material to talk to a child about, but the alternative is to have them twisting in the wind.

Git offaya High Horse Melody (That's Texan for wadaminut) Please don't be offended.

You did NOT post that you had a conversation with Harley over on Dave's thread. You did NOT include his conversation with you as expanded or at least I didn't see it before I dashed over here to start this thread.

Thank you for that information. THAT makes a difference, yet:


I didn't listen to him. I didn't know you were going to call <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would have had a dozen follow up questions along the lines of, well anyway, I did list the ramifications:


Now Melody, I am NOT avocating to tell the kids or NOT tell the kids for the purposes of this thread. Harley does and you do. My personal opinion is that you should tell the kids something appropriate for their age, emotional maturity and depending on the situation as it exists, which is a serious variable.

Here is my problem, and I stated it and will do so again.

1. What do you tell the kids?
2. How do you style it?
3. And a new one, how do you keep the conversation from being used against you in court?

Melody, the only time in my own childhood I remember being confronted by adultery was when my hated for good reason stepfather apparently had an ONS with a hooker. My mother bleed all over me for comfort. I was overwhelmed. I had no idea what to say or how to say it.

I am serious about this. In no way shape or form am I disputing you Melody. Do not take this personal, please. What and how you tell the kids is serious and begs discussion. What level of involvement is also important.

Now in Dave's situation, for example, what would you have Dave tell his kids with exact words. Mom is baby sitting the kids from after school until Dave gets off work. Then she leaves. She has free time to say whatever she wants.

So what does Dave tell his kids? Am I making this more complicated than it needs be? Is there a magic bullet. I can say honestly, I haven't a clue what Dave should tell his kids. I haven't a clue what I should have told my kids if they had been in town at the time. I simply do NOT know what to say or not to say.

Finally, CPS is a sometimes strange bunch. They have unusual powers, to say the least. I know of one case where CPS jumped all over a Dad for discussing his wife's affair with the kids. I don't know all the details. It may have been how he said it for all I know. Which leads me back to my real question;

What do you say and how do you say it. I am really clueless.


Larry

These posts are happening so fast, I can't keep up.

*sigh*

Leave us get to specifics so I can understand. And understanding is what I seek. Trust me, not everyone is adept at knowing exactly what to say that is "Age appropriate."

Given that Dave's wife is a bit crazy and she keeps the kids after school, what does Dave tell them? Now kids being kids, those kids are probably gonna tell mom what Dave said.

I love LG's comment that could be turned to: "Mom has a new boyfriend and we are dealing it." That I can understand.

Larry

So if you can share, what are you telling him? How is he taking it?

Larry

Larry - Age appropriate means that you tell older kids that WS is having an affair. You tell younger kids that WS has a boyfriend/girlfriend, and that is not right for MARRIED people.

I rasied my boys alone, and have discussed the care of an uncircumcised penis, wet dreams, masterbation, menstruation, PMS, sex, birth control, giving birth, cross-dressing, homosexuality, etc. It was not easy, but I wanted them to learn things from me.

Ok, I can understand that. I have a 10 year old girl and a 12 year old boy. The boy is a mama's boy and the girl is pretty independent. How would you handle those differences given that kids talk to each other?

This is the first time I have seen this level of discussion on this particular element. I think it deserves an airing and yes, it is going to be emotional at times. That is the nature of affairs fall out and with kids, double tough.

While I have given the appearance of neutrality on this issue, I am really not neutral. The OM in my wife's affair is a relative. And he got run off. My oldest boy asks where he went from time to time and I really don't know what to say. I find it interesting that he never asks his mom. No, I haven't asked my wife. We did a POJA that all affair talk was old news about six months ago when we finally decided that we had dealt with it enough. Then my kid asks a question. I am not going to break POJA.

Besides, I haven't a clue what to tell him.

Larry

Now, Larry, the only fella I see on his high horse is you, the guy who came out slinging. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />






But I did include it here. Telling the children is pretty standard advice around here and has been for years. Years before I even came here.






But those are not ramifications. Those are individual considerations that each parent will have to determine according to his best judgement.






Of course, and no one has ever said otherwise. The information should be age appropriate.




These are not problems, but questions about tactics. I am not aware of it being used against a parent in court. Adultery CAN be used against a parent in court, but I am not aware of telling a child about adultery being held against him. The parent would have to use his best judgment in what to tell the child.






I am sure that was horrible but I don't how this relates to our focus here; it is a different issue. No one has told him to use his children for comfort, which I agree is creepy and inappropriate.






I think most loving, caring parents can figure out how to tell their child in a way they will understand. I don't think there is one perfect way. I have confidence that most parents can figure out the best way.

I know that several other parents here HAVE explained adultery to their children so maybe they can share exactly what they said so others could be helped in this regard.

Larry - YIKES! Disappearing relatives.........

I would be afraid that someone in the family or a friend would tell your kids, and maybe not in a kind manner. I hope that doesn't happen.

Ain't it amazing how Texans can handle a high horse <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, Melody:


Ramifications, problems, et al are just symantics. You must be in EAST Texas where you have to chop down trees to get at the oil. I clearly remember that my wife was cake eating when my kids came home from grandparents, where they had spent most of the summer.

I was a total basket case. It was the effort to figure out what to tell my oldest son that woke me up. He was trying to comfort me. I went outside to have a crying jag - wife was off "Shopping." He happened outside and came over to comfort me. Talk about a wake up call! I didn't figure out what to tell him at the time, my mind couldn't get around it, but I sure as heck figured out what to say to wife. I called her on her cell phone and said "Get home, now. My head is back on straight and I have some options for you. Based on the option you choose, I know what I will do. I'll explain when you get here."

And the rest is history.

Harley says tell the kids as part of exposure, maybe more. Er, the rest is left up to parents who are going through an emotional train wreck? Knowing that my kids were NOW in harm's way was my wake up call. But that didn't help me a bit figuring out what to say to them that wouldn't lead to questions for which they were not old enough to hear the answers. Oh, I could think of a couple of things off the bat, it was the follow up that scared me at the time. So I just dealt with the affair as it stood. Easier that way than explaining to my kid that mom was nuts. Come to think of it, avoiding how to tell son had a great outcome.

Please, those who have told their kids and those who have NOT told their kids, add to this post. I believe with all my heart that this needs a full and complete airing.

Larry

I haven't read Dave's situation closely, but he would tell them the truth in a manner they can understand, which conveys the basic facts. And hopefully they WOULD speak to their mother about their feelings about the affair. I would expect that.

It was a very short affair, thankfully. Only one or two relatives know about it at all. But yea, affairs are the gift that keeps on giving.

I was not on MB at the time, I discovered it later to get help with recovery issues. At the time, I did not do extensive disclosure. My closest friend is a child psychologist. He knew and helped me as a friend, not a shrink. Matter of fact, he helped my wife more than me.

My wife went through a maturity crisis at 30 that was even more so because they were trying to kill her in BSN school, which is to weed out the weak. I KNEW she was vulnerable because I was having to work long hours at the time to keep the money flowing - business issues. I trusted this one relative and no other. He turned out to be a snake.

I have posted a long diatribe on this before and seen no purpose in doing it here. Leave us just say; "Larry is at work a lot and I care about you as a sister. Can we just hold hands when we go shopping for groceries?" "I am very attracted to you, but of course we can't do anything." "Why does Larry have to work such long hours. Why if I were him, I would be here with you all the time."

Gag.

Back to the issue at hand. Folks, what did you tell you kids or if you didn't tell your kids, why not? What say you?

Larry

Larry, it is not semantics, there is a huge difference between a question about a TACTIC and a "ramification" or "problem." Words do have meanings. Asking HOW you tell a child is not a ramification or a problem but a question.






What was there to "figure out?" You just say the truth. That is not that hard, Larry. People do it every day. I don't think its nearly as difficult as you fear. It is never easy to convey such a hard message but many parents manage it just fine. There is no magic script to guide us just as there is no magic parents manual giving step by step instructions, as much as I wish there was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Most of us raise our kids just fine without it, using our own God given judgment.






It sounds like you are very torn inside about this, so maybe a discussion will help you come to terms with your own actions. I suspect that is the real issue.

Melody:


I am not torn now. I was then. I didn't know what to do. I was clueless. I suspect I am not the only one. Dave is being given advice to tell his kids. He is cringing at the thought as well he should because he is on the hot seat.

Given that his wife is acting like she has a serious screw loose, I am not going to specifically tell him to tell his kids because I am not in a position to know what he knows.

Melody, you have delved into this in times past in depth. Get up to speed on Dave and make suggestions. He is in the mine field and needs help finding the mines.

Larry

He is being given good advice that comes from the very best, Dr. Harley. As well he should cringe. If he weren't a good parent, he wouldnt' cringe at all; he wouldn't care. Every parent on here who has done this cringed. It is a hard thing to tell a child. But it is usually for the best.


I will take a browse at his thread, but I am not a psychologist, which is why I stick to advice from Dr. Harley. Of course, I don't think one has to be a psychologist to see the logic behind telling kids the truth.

Me too. But I don't know his wife. Dave does. It might backfire.

Let me add something here. I have changed how I post on this forum for a reason. Back a few months, I was posting to a guy on here and so was Mr. Wondering. We offered our help and opinions as did a number of other folks.

Lo and behold, wife shows up in court with selected posts by Wondering and me and uses them agains the guy. I was mortified, to say the least. Add that to the guy I know who CPS raked over the coals for whatever he told his kids about his wife's affair, and CAUTION be CAREFUL rings in my ear like Big Ben on steroids.

Larry

Who knows? Anything might backfire, but that also depends on how one defines backfire. Waking up tomorrow might "backfire," that doesn't mean we just stop living and taking steps to improve our situations. We can't live a life paralyzed in fear of imagined perils.

Larry,

Even Dr Harley himself said he knew about his fathers affair when he was a young child. Children know this is wrong and need to be validated not lied to.

In my specific case, our boys were 16, 14 and 12. We sat them down and told them the truth - my wife was in an immoral relationship with our next door neighbour. She told them they could go and live with her and OM - kids said no thanks. She left. Her last memory was of our 14yo racked with sobbing in the driveway as she drove off.

She ended her affair within a few days. One of the reasons was the pain she was causing our children.

In your case Larry, I would submit your children are old enough for the truth and the truth is what they deserve.

There is nothing quite so powerful as a woman seeing how sleazy they look in the eyes of their children. An affair WILL destroy their family and security and affect the rest of their lives adversly. They deserve the truth.

Larry:

Your looking for advice:

I'll give it a shot.

You had your opening:

"My oldest boy asks where he went from time to time and I really don't know what to say. I find it interesting that he never asks his mom. No, I haven't asked my wife. We did a POJA that all affair talk was old news about six months ago when we finally decided that we had dealt with it enough. Then my kid asks a question. I am not going to break POJA."

Where did "relative" get run off to? You boy wants to know, tell him the truth.

This "relative" was:

A: Trying to destroy our family by trying to/sleeping with your mother.
B: He decided that living around here wasn't a good idea, since his actions with your mother were very inappropriate.
C: I don't know. Ask your mother.

One of these answers will be appropriate for your son. I like B. I think it works. Let your son follow up as needed.

Larry, you "find it interesting that he never asks his mom."

Are you sure of this? Because Mrs Larry may not say. But I will give her the benefit of the doubt, and presume that your son has not mentioned/questioned your W. (I say this because my DS speaks more freely with his mother).

However, I believe waht is really at play is that your Son KNOWS your W was involved with the relative. And is afraid to ask his mother. So, it is in your hands.

Which leads me to:

"We did a POJA that all affair talk was old news"

It ain't "old news" to your son. It's a secret that he has bits and pieces to, that he is trying to fit together. But the missing pieces are large. So, I think it is time to POJA with Mrs Larry and let her know that it's time to talk to the boy. She can talk to the girl. Or preferably, you two talk to them together. (individually meet with the children, but both of you together)

What to actually say? Have that discussion with MrsL and discuss the outlines, and what is appropriate for your son/daughter's age. Daughter may not have a clue. Do not avoid talking to her because she doesn't have a clue, just keep the conversation clear.

Start with the family situation, you working, MrsL in school, and you too were under alot of stress. "relative" got to close to mommy, and due to this, Mommy made some bad decisions. Mommy has fixed these bad decisions. And we are stronger, better family now.

That is thread that goes thru the conversation, but you can expand it as needed.

Lesson to children: Forgiveness, the ability to change for the better, honesty.

And, do not suppose that other relatives haven't talked/gossiped/exchanged info on your W's A with OM. And that thier children do not know. Because one day, someone is going to say something and your children are out of the loop, and that you do not ever want. You are protecting the wrong people then.

And Larry, I really enjoyed your posts with HS. You had great eloquence. Please put that to use when talking to your son. Because even more difficult conversations are coming.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning LG,. absolutely great advice. My wife will be devastated (me too), but I guess it is time to have another talk. I will tell you that the thought of what to tell the kids was a very large part of pulling her pulling her head out.

Ok, leave us now go to Dave. Have you read his thread? He hasn't told his kids. He has his head on straight as well as anyone I have seen in the situation he is in.

Folks, it isn't just me. This is why I started this thread. For me, when "Where is the relative?" comes up again, my wife and I will be prepared. I have a guy who works for me whose wife had an affair. Now that one resulted in divorce and him getting custody. But I clearly remember his agony over what to tell the kids during the beginning and middle of the mess.

He finally told them that Mom was having an affair with [name] and that would probably mean a divorce. The boys were 10 and 12 and that week he might have made it to work once. I gave him vacation time to deal with it and he needed it. According to him, talking to his kids about it was the worse thing out of the whole sordid mess. Not having any guide lines - heck I was clueless to help and so were most everyone else who knew about it - may have made it even more difficult.

CPS got in the middle of it. Mom called them. This was beyond my ability help him as a friend. As I understand it from later conversation, CPS complained that the house was dirty (filthy), that my friend had told the kids inappropriate things in an inappropriate way and that mom was also destroying the kid's life. At one point, my friend (and employee) had to take the kids to live with his parents to keep CPS from grabbing them. If memory serves, CPS said get the kids out of the house until the two of you get a divorce or whatever or we will take them elsewhere. And keep your mouth shut, you are telling the kids things they do not need to hear.

Waywards lie and twist the truth. Like a drug addict is an apt description. The betrayed are sometimes so emotionally devasted, there is no telling what they might say. It is a hair ball when kids are in the middle, and that is exactly where kids end up, like it or not.

So, if anyone reading this post has a story to share, by all means post it here. What to tell the kids and when and how is of major importance. The kids are civilians in the middle of a war zone. I agree, don't make them guess but on the other hand, emotions run high for everyone in an affair situation. Minds are clouded. My next door neighbor killed himself over an affair. Any story that anyone can add to this thread just might help the next person.

Larry

PS LB - the HS deal really set me back on giving out advice. I went elsewhere for a time. For the past couple of weeks I have started posting again and trying to help. I just finished up a major one on Recovery. It was a sorta easy deal, but not to the family involved. I have often wondered how Mr. Wondering handled the use of what he considered good advice against a good guy in court. He is a lawyer, so I guess nothing surprises him. I have gone back and read that thread again and I honestly can't change a word.

Larry, I missed bunches yesterday, cause I was talking to my kid...

No, seriously, when my son was 3, when all of this began, I told him that daddy did a bad thing and hurt mommy. I told him that *I* asked daddy to leave, and that DS would see him again.

That was my first conversation. There have been many more. Had I not been in utter shock, I would have probably handled it differently. I would have told him that daddy made bad choices that were hurting his family (him AND me) and that he couldn't live with us until he made better decisions.

Now, I have told my DS everything. What have I said, exactly, you ask? I have spoken these words..Daddy has hurt both of us, his family, you and I, with bad choices. Daddy is married to mommy, and when you are married, you put your partner first. Daddy is putting himself first, above both of us right now, and cannot live with us because of that. This is your daddy's choice. I do not want this. I want him here with us.

To which my son asks, what bad choices. I told him that his daddy chooses to live with another woman, and that breaks the rules of marriage, and it is unacceptable behavior.

Geez, we have had many many conversations as of late, so I couldn't tell you, word for word, but the above comes close to how many of them go. The positive result is that my son KNOWS that it is NOT him. That he is not why his daddy isn't home. No matter what I say, I cannot take my DS's pain away, but I can take the blame that he most certainly would apply to himself, and give it to the rightful owner, his daddy.

Larry, I don't think there are any magic words that can make such devastating news go down easier. The impact of the news of an affair is going to be hard, no matter how it is presented. Affairs are devastating to all concerned. There simply is no way to make it EASY or make it right. Some things are just BAD and that reality can't be changed.

I think what is WORSE for a child is living in a war zone and NOT being the told the truth so they can make some sense of the crisis. It is much easier to live through a war if you understand where the bullets are coming from. Ignorance is much worse, IMO, than hearing the truth about the source of the crisis. Children can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

I think most parents are smart enough to figure out the right words on their own, but some general principles I might emphasize would be to give the basic facts without going into gory details. Kids don't need alot of detail, but they do need to know basic facts and have their questions answered honestly.

Another very important aspect is to explain the immorality of adultery and their thoughts on the sanctity of marriage. Explain why it is immoral. Children need moral guidance more than anything, and if this is missing, they will just conclude that adultery must be ok.

Those are some key points I can think of, I am sure others who have done this can make some contributions.

Here is Marriage Builders article about children and adultery that might be helpful to some:

Infidelity:
The Lessons Children Learn
by Jennifer Harley Chalmers, Ph.D.

"But even after the mistake of an affair, it is possible to make a conscious choice to change the disastrous consequences. I have counseled many parents who could see what they were teaching their children by having an affair. It motivated them to end the affair and explain to their children how wrong they had been. Although it was extremely difficult and very humbling, they were not only able to save their marriage, but also able to correct the lessons they had taught their children.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

Great thread everyone!!

I have just to jump on and say that I have talked to my DSS who is 12 about this. He is aware of OW because WH has taken them all out together several times.

I have made it clear to him that his Dad's actions are morally wrong. We've talked about why they are wrong.

We also talk about how you can "HATE the sin, but still LOVE the sinner". this resonates with DSS. This is something he can understand.

I was specifically told by the Harley's that I should also tell DD6 the truth. I haven't done so yet. She knows that Daddy has made some wrong choices, that he has hurt me, and that I do LOVE him still.

The one theme I have kept throughout EVERY discussion with both kids is that I love their Daddy, I want him home with us, Daddy loves them both VERY much, AND IT IS OK FOR THEM TO LOVE HIM, TOO!

It is important to me that they know that they are not being 'disloyal' to me by loving their Daddy.

JMHO.

Melody:


Good advice. And so was the article. I have read it.


I guess this is the where you and I got crossways. I wasn't smart enough. Neither was my friend, he said things he should not have said. I dunno if MOST parents are smart enough or just SOME parents are, but I do believe that ALL parents could use some help in this very difficult area.

And the replies to this thread have certainly helped me and I suspect others as well. You might want to suggest to Dave that he read this thread. I'll back you up.

Larry

PS: Let me add another dimension to this. My two oldest's bio father called CPS the week my wife and I got married. That went nowhere, but was a rough time. Yes, I was accused and CPS found it to be a lie. Later on, he continue his abuse by telling the kids their mother was a - all sorts of names - I was - here insert all sorts of names - our dog was from the devil, if they could get rid of me, their mom would come back to him, yada yada. And NO, my relationship with my wife was NOT based on an affair in case that is what someone wants to read into what I say. No karma here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We had to go to court to stop him. He started another custody battle that went all the way to the State Supreme Court before it ended. We won every step of the way. In predictable fashion, when he lost, he stopped child support payments. He was and is an abusive and controlling jerk. This is one more reason why I have started this thread to explore as many possibilities of telling the kids, and what and how, as possible. Oh, and for the record, my wife is a good person and a good mom who has made some bad choices in her past, and the operative word is "Past." Heck, so have I.

If anyone has a story, by all means post it.

Just wanted to add how I did it!

First off...the wrong way. The day I found out about the adultery, I went storming out of the house and headed to OM's house to do him bodily harm! A block down the street, I realized I might not want to do that. So, I came back. Before I had left, I had been "going off" on my wife pretty good up in our bedroom.

So, when I got back, she had the kids in the living room and they were wondering what was wrong with Dad. I came straight in, saw them in the living room and walked up to my wife and asked "You want to tell them or me?"

She started to say something to them about mom and dad having problems and it wasnt about them, blah, blah, blah...and I chimed in "No. It isnt about that kids. It is about your mother committing adultery, which is having sex with another man." That ended the discussion then!

All of my kids were under the age of 11 then. And as I said, I did not handle that well!

Later, once my wife had moved out on us, I went into a long explanation to them of what adultery was, how God viewed it and what marriage was about. I refrained from calling my wife names. But I did show them that adultery was wrong, that God was not with a person in adultery, etc. My kids were able to take those facts and put together that mom was wrong.

I also made sure they understood who exactly the Troll (OM) was. He wasnt (and still isnt) a nice man. He was a man doing terrible things and that they were to tell me if they were ever in contact with him.

A few weeks ago, my wife admitted that if she had stayed with the Troll, she knows that the kids would have NEVER accepted him! My heart lept knowing that!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In conclusion, I am for telling them the truth. Not the way I first did it though. The second way. And when my wife would try to explain in her foggy notions how this would all be okay and God would forgive, I made sure that I took them right back to Scripture and made sure they understood the truth.

After awhile, even they were able to understand fogese and what was truth. They are smart kids now. They have now been trained, thanks to this mess, on what a marriage is, how they get in trouble, and what is expected.

That would have never been possible if we had just said "mom and dad are having problems, blah, blah, blah."

By the way...my wife's attorney asked me two questions at the deposition that I loved...

Attorney (in response to my affair fact finding efforts): "Dont you believe that your wife deserves privacy?"

Mortarman: "She deserves privacy. She does not deserve secrecy. Secrecy has no place in a marriage."

The attorney got off the subject. Then the second question...

Attorney: "Do you believe it was right of you to tell the children that their mother was in an adulterous relationship?"

Mortarman: "Yep. I told them the truth. I didnt delve down into the dirty particulars. But I told them the truth. It wasnt me acting immorally or breaking the law. That was her. It isnt me that has to explain myself to the kids. She does."

This is a great discussion, and as I am at least mentioned as a benefactor I will weigh in. My kids are 11 and 7, and honestly they aren't as mature as other kids their age or older in understanding the ways of the birds and the bees (or the snakes). I believe that they are already traumatized by their mother's actions, regardless of her affair...her abandonment of them runs much deeper. The truth is is that I am doing everything I can to bring her back home, and I'd tell them that. She will probably say that she can't, ultimately because she doesn't forgive me for my past action...this could easily translate into her inability to forgive THEM if they do something bad. I can't bear the thought.

I think honesty is important, but there is a fine line between the brutal type and the need to know type. Take the VA Tech shootings...the honest truth was a crazy guy killed a bunch of people, but the brutal truth was when the video was released, when the shooter's psychiatric records were released, etc. Sometimes the nitty gritty details just aren't necessary. Secondly, my wife says she wasn't having an affair at all, and isn't now. Despite overwhelming (IMHO) evidence to the contrary, she still denies it. If she could admit it to me or to herself, then maybe more detail would be appropriate for the kids. But otherwise, its a she said he said argument that pits the kids in the middle to determine who the bearers of truth are. Neither should be subjected to having to choose which parent is lying to them. Its patently unfair, again in my opinion.

I have told my wife that someday they will ask...and I will tell them. I will tell them about our relationship and why it broke up because I don't want them to follow my path. Luckily, I have learned so much about how these things can work that I am in the position to teach them how to enter and retain positive relationships with people. Something that my wife and I never learned (despite both of our parents marriages still together).

So perhaps I am soft-sided, or defering to my emotions on this one...perhaps. I do like Bugsmoms approach in restating her love for her WS to the children, and I will likely tell them that. I will let her answer the inevitable "why's". Great post Larry, its really taken off fast and I think there is plenty of good advice for all sides of this debate.

Removed. TMI.

My kids--17,15, and 12, at the time, witnessed their dad COMPLETELY zoned out in the months before DDay. In particular the week before he left town with OW. 17 yr old had a talk with dad. It was uncanny because my son was acting more like an adult than his father. Wisdom from the mouths of babes, but dad decided not to hear it.
DDay--well I crumbled onto the floor in a fetal position after getting a late night phone call from OW'H. It was kinda hard to keep it from the kids. Not that I would have. I agree with Mortarman.

When I was a kid, my parents got along marvelously. Then, one day out of the blue, Dad left--for OW.

Who knew?

I think kids deserve to know what it going on,lest, they create their own stories. Not good.

This is an important point you make here and is usually the case. Rather than looking down on a wayward spouse, a child can see a person who did a bad thing, but is remorseful and made it right. Kids can respect that. A recovered WS is an example of good character.

I have to tell you that I have some serious lingering resentments over this issue and most especially the practice of lying to kids. My mother's failure to tell me the truth about my father led me to believe he was a trusted role model and a decent man, so when he introduced corrupting influences into my life as a young teen, I was ill equipped and ill prepared. She caused me enormous psychological problems by lying to me about my father. Not only was I morally confused, but I seriously questioned my ability to discern reality because nothing ever made sense.


Had my mother told me the truth about my father, his affairs, his corrupt character, etc, I might have not had such blind, unwitting trust. I had no defense against this because she neglected to give me any moral guidance.

I always sensed something was not quite RIGHT in his little schemes but could never give voice to it because I was so immature. I was ALL ON MY OWN, baby! Instead I learned to silence that small protesting voice inside because my instincts about right and wrong were never validated. I made them go away instead because I was a ......very stupid girl.

Oh Melody, this is such a sore point with me. My wife is from the school of never saying bad about a bio parent out of respect for the kid. We have a POJA on this, but I was not and am still not totally convinced that our agreement was the right one. I won't go against a POJA, but am going to do some research and bring it up again sometime this summer or fall. I think it is time we had discussions with the two kids about their father.

My point will be, subject to research modification, that we do not have to be unkind, just factual.

Larry

I saw this on the net, and think this is how it often goes. This is one reason I think the BS needs to tell the truth.

• “ Johnny, you may have noticed that mommy and daddy have been fighting and we don’t get along very well”. The father leaves out the part that the reason he and his wife don’t get along is because he (the dad) is causing the behavior that insures that they will not get along.
• “I have to tell you something. I fell in love with this woman at the office. I didn’t mean to. It just happened. It was beyond my control. I couldn’t help it. It was just something that happened to me and I can’t help the way I feel about her”. The dad is taking no responsibility for his actions. The dad is sending the message to his son that it is not his (the dad’s) fault, and that he (the dad) had no choice to make in this matter. The dad is manipulating the child by posturing as if the dad is innocent, in order to obtain the child’s sympathy. The dad is also soliciting the child’s blessing, due to the situation being “beyond the helpless dad’s control”. This manipulation of the child is self servingly narcissistic and diabolical. The dad made his own choices all the way down the line without any consideration for Johnny. Had the dad put Johnny first, the dad would not have made the devastating choices that impacted Johnny’s life in the first place.
• “I’m sorry to tell you that I have to leave your mother. You see, I just don’t love her anymore and I need to be happy.” When you get married, you vow in front of God and the law to love and honor your spouse, “till death do you part”. This is called a “commitment”. This is called “a promise”. This is making “a covenant”. This is not a vow that I will stay with this person as long as this person makes me fell good about myself and as long as everything goes my way. This is a commitment to stand by that person and your future children for a lifetime in order to provide a safe and nurturing environment for your children. This is a commitment to work out any problems that may arise, in order to keep your vow and to protect the emotional and physical needs of your family. Because you have made this commitment, you do not have the right to choose to fall out of love with your spouse. The best way to love your children is to love their mother or their father and to keep that commitment to each other which provides a safe environment for your children to grow, learn, to feel secure and to be loved in.
• “Don’t you want me to be happy Johnny?” What about Johnny’s happiness?
• “Johnny, please don’t think that this has anything to do with you.” That’s just the point. It has nothing to do with Johnny because Johnny is not even being considered in the equation. It’s all about the “me”, the selfish “me”.
• “I want you to be clear that I am not leaving you. I am leaving your mother.” This is quite confusing to the child because the fact is; the father is no longer in the home, so the truth is that he has left the child also.
• “You see, your mother and I don’t get along, and this other woman, her name is Jane, makes me feel good about myself.” Guys, get a clue! Women know that if they want to steal you away from your family, all they have to do is stroke your ego and tell you how wonderful you are and that you are always right. It’s the oldest manipulative trick in the book. Husbands and wives fight. Husbands and wives don’t get along some of the time, or all of the time if one of the spouses is imposing dysfunctional behavior on to the other. This does not mean that you look for a pretty thing that will affirm and make you fell better about your horrible behavior towards your family. This means that you take responsibility for your behavior and actions, ask forgiveness from the other spouse and work on mending what you have broken in the relationship in order that you, your spouse and your children remain safe in every way.
• “Johnny, I think you will agree that I have the right to be happy, don’t you? You wouldn’t want me to go through the rest of my life being unhappy, would you? You want me to be happy Johnny, don’t you?” It’s obvious that the dad’s happiness is far more important than Johnny’s happiness, security and well-being.
• “Oh, by the way, some things will be changing. Your mom is going to have to get a job because with my new life” with his mistress and her children, “I won’t be able to bring in enough money to support two households. We will be selling the house so that your mommy can go live her life, and so that I can go live my life. You and your mom are really going to have to scale down on some things because there’s just not going to be enough money to live the way you are accustomed to, because you and your mom will be in a place of your own, and I will be in a place of my own” with the mistress ad her two children. “Don’t worry, you can come and visit me every other weekend and we can take some vacations together on holidays” with the mistress and her children.
• “By the way, I will be moving in with Jane” the mistress. “I want you to meet her two children. Bobby is 12 and Susan is 15. They will be living with me and Jane in my house. Won’t that be fun?” Not only is daddy leaving Johnny, but he also will be living with two other children. The dynamic of living with these other children will place Johnny’s dad in the position of being a dad to two other children that are not his own. So lets review. Daddy is no longer living with me, but he is living with and fathering two other kids that aren’t his. Hay, he’s my dad! Not their dad! "

MM:


I called my buddy and asked, bluntly, what he said. He said he could laugh about it now, but at the time, it was no laughing matter and he was dead wrong. As he remembered it, he confronted his wife and the kids overheard. Then he told his kids that "Your mom is having sex (actual word starts with an f) [with] that [dang] jailbird, druggie she went with before he was sent to jail and she met me. I could kick her [word] for doing that to me and the family, she is stupid."

Now that has to be top of the list for doing and saying the wrong thing to the kids. Anybody got one better?

Larry

Wow...radical truth! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Larry, you are right, that is something you would want to work out with her, I agree. I do not think, though, that it is respectful to a child to delude them about their parents. Sometimes it is the truth that is BAD, not the telling of the truth. In giving those facts, I think it is essential to couple it with moral guidance. Without that, moral confusion is created because there is no context and certainly no mature judgment with which to assess those facts.

Longhorn


Sheesh Longhorn, I am a Texan and thus incapable of being a lesser man. What were you eating, er, drinking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Before we both get shouted down for being Texan, I will move on.

Thank you. As long as I have been on this forum, I have never seen a detailed discussion of what and how to talk to the kids. I think that most folks skip around to whatever is bothering them of the moment or where they think they can help, as the case may be. There is too much here for limited time to take it all in.

So, no regrets for bringing it up now. From your own experience you know better than most just how important this subject is and will continue to be. It almost needs a sticky here or over on just found out.

Believer: Great find. change he to she and it becomes unisexual.

Keep the cards and letters coming folks, it doesn't get any more important than this, IMHO.

Larry

Oh, I must chime in on something sort of related. My biological/real father was an alcoholic (he passed away from complications when I was ~18). When I was old enough and had questions about why I had no daddy, my momma told it to me straight and sweet, tenderly, with no anger. She told me that my dad had a drinking problem (it was the 70's) and that he would get mean and hit mommy and threaten harm to us, so she had to take us and leave, but daddy always knew where we lived and our phone number, so he could contact us.

It was a tough pill to swallow when he never called, and when I felt damaged by this, my mother would hold me and kiss me, tell me how she was there for me, and would help to absorb the pain (I know now how very difficult this must have been for her). She was honest. I am holding back the tears as I write this, not because my mother hurt me, but because my father was a ******, and a waste and he hurt me, and I will carry that with me always. BUT, I know I was not to blame, I know that I was a wonderful being that deserved his love.

TELL THE KIDS. Tell them. I am fairly well adjusted, with some abandonment issues (obviously stemming from my father) but my siblings were not so lucky. My brother KNEW of the fighting and hitting and abusive behavior, HE SAW AND HEARD IT (we did not leave until he was 8)! He hates his father and deals with depression for life, as well as being VERY WARY of women, evil women. He, himself, is into the drink far too much, but he has no children, no wife, no girlfriend. My sister was 3 when we left, and deals with abandonment in a much deeper way than I do. REMEMBER, she was three, so she remembers noise, and her daddy, but she doesn't remember pain and hitting and arguing. She has lead a life very similar to 2long's daughter.

TELL THE KIDS, tell them now, not later, not when they ask, but before they ask. Write it down and practice if you must. Send the letter here, we'll all chime in. Do not wait.

If you are here, and you are reading this, then you have all the support in the world (literally) on these boards and with the Harley's to help you find an appropriate way to tell the kids. Don't make excuses that they are too young, as that is just hogwash. They know, they feel pain, don't let them continue to formulate WHY they feel pain on their own, because they WILL point the finger at themselves.

Dave:

I am uncertain what you did that was so bad. But I don't need the details. You are making a decision what is best for your kids and you are in the best position to know.

Putting the kids in the middle hasn't been fully developed in this thread except by what you have said. That you have past sins that could be put on the table by your wife to counter anything you say to the kids certainly muddles up the water to a degree. So long as you are making your decision for the right reason(s) instead of the wrong one(s), you will be making the best of what is a terrible event in their lives.

At the same time, you may or may not be aware of what your WW is telling the kids. Be cautioned that she may be urinating in their ears when you are not around. I hope not, but nothing would surprise me that a WS does.

Larry

SilentL

Thank you. I had no father. I understand.

Larry

Ah, Dave, what goes for one parent goes for the other. If you have done some things in the past that could have harmed the children, now is the time to man up about that, and let your children know how wrong whatever and such and such is, and how you are working to remedy that.

None of this is easy, it is just the opposite, and we all know that. Talk to your kids, start with a little and fill in as you go. These talks don't have to be an offensive, just small bits of info here and there, opening the floor for discussion and answering best you can, or letting them know that you will get help to FIND the answers and get back to them.

This is a great thread, because it’s something I’m battling with RIGHT NOW. I had Exposure Day this immediate past Sunday. I’ll share how I did it in a moment, but here’s WHY.

It was brewing for some time, but what really pushed me to do it was a cell text exchange with my WW about if she told the boys—ages 8 and almost 7 (16 mos apart)—where she was going when she left for the airport last Saturday afternoon. She said no. I responded that I can’t keep lying to them. Her response was, quote, “For the record, no one ever asked you to lie.”

Well, over the past 4+ months that I’ve been doing my own Plan A, I’ve gotten right with myself, and HONEST with myself, flaws and past transgressions and all. My intent has always been to fix my marriage, but any chance of that can’t happen as long as her A continued. And I have been the one to dodge questions from the kids such as “When is Mommy coming home?” and “Will Mommy be back for dinner tonight?” and “Why is Mom always going to &$% on the weekend?” That inflicts a pain on your psyche that I’m sure many of you can relate to. In many ways, I was enabling her.

I realized that if I am to be a man of integrity, I couldn’t preserve theirs by keeping them in the dark, nor by overtly lying to them. And at this juncture, I decided that a non-answer was the same as lying. I can’t be honest with myself by not being honest with them.

HOW: I was fortunate that I had been having several discussions with the boys about making choices. Few minor arguments with schoolmates, behavior at home, fighting with each other, usual boy stuff and trying to ingrain and inculcate solid values. So I couched it in those terms. That Mommy and Daddy are working through some grown-up feelings and that I hope we can talk about them, but that WW is choosing to talk to someone else about it instead. And I made it absolutely clear that it was neither of their faults, that they are loved no matter what. That’s the Reader’s Digest version.

I’ve battled with the disclosure to them. I have read before that it requires “brutal” honesty, but I think that can “brutalize” kids more than giving them the straight dope but sans gory details.

Now God forbid it get to the point of DV proceedings, at which point I’m sure more details will get to them, but right now, they need to be loved, know that something is awry, but details only age-appropriate. And by that, I would favor disclosing less than more by nature.


That is brilliant!!! Outstanding response!

Well I hope its alright to add my situation to the thread - it comes from a different perspective where the kids may know before the BH.

BT I am a naturalized Texan. Came down from north of the border across the Detroit River. My sons are native Texans however-probably why they took matters in their own hands.

in my situation my sons (17 & 23) at the time figured out something was amiss with their mom before I fully comprehended my situation. I was in a mild panic state because I was discovering my W was hving a lot of contact with a particular OM. The OM lives in the park cities, loaded with money and was putting the pressure of a better life to her. He wanted a new trophy girl on his arm for the nightlife and out of town Vegas trips.

Long story short - without my knowledge (until after), the boys both decided to go down and have a little visit with OM and find out his motives. My sons are not small by any means - they are over 6ft, around 185lbs, work as PT personal trainers on the side and could bench 245lbs at the time. Not sure what was said but they poured cold water on the fire.

They also had a chat with their mother that I overheard - I do recall them saying wTF to you see in that ferret face. She replied he is nothing and will not replace your father.

I am glad on one hand that they helped on their accord but on the other hand - it could have been a bad scenario. I wished they would have come to me first so we could work out a plan together instead.

My background is that I am from a good size Can-ItaI family and I am afraid the boys were concerned that had any word leaked to one of my brothers - there would be more problems. I am sure it was preventive action on their part. My W was definately going through a MLC at the time and the kids definately noticed the wierd environment around the house.

Thanks for listening - interesting thread and points of views being expressed.

rwinger:

Very interesting! And yes, a total different slant.

Everyone should live in Texas. We almost have the room, if not the desire to have it happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


What? They clean up NorthWest Hwy to the point where an entitled arsewipe from Park Cities has no place to go for that squeeze????? And here I thought Baby Dolls was still doing a public service keeping males like that off the street.

Larry

Very interesting thread. We, too, told our 12 yr old DD and 9 yr old DS, since they were aware something was up, that Daddy had wrongfully had a relationship w/ another woman besided Mommy, but he had stopped. We also told them that we both still loved each other, loved them, and that Mommy and Daddy realized they hadn't been treating each other very well, were going to start seeing a MC and treating each other the way married people should. We have been working hard at recovery and are doing fairly well. I am, however, having the usual BS troubles, and the other day my DD stumbled upon me in a crying jag. I struggled over what to tell her, and at first told her it was nothing. But then I rethought it and decided to be honest wth her, to tell her that even though things are OK now w/Mommy & Daddy, that Mommy still had some days when she was sad about what had happened to us, that at times my heart still hurts. I have had nagging doubts all along about "keeping up appearances" in front of the kids, esp. my DD. Not that I want to have discussions about my FWH's A in front of the kids, but on the other hand, to just pretend like everything's great, that we just snapped our figners and all is wonderful, seems a bit wrong as well. My DD is old enough to know what her father did was VERY wrong, and sometimes I almost feel it is a disservice to her, as a woman herself someday, to make it seem like it was perfectly fine with me that her father did to us what he did. Does that make sense? I don't want either of my children to think that someone can have an A, and life just goes on as usual. In fact, from their perspective, our marriage seems better! And in their young minds, they could get the wrong idea from that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Any thoughts?

No. Not telling them is not the same as lying. My parents told me "It's none of your business" more times than I can count EXCEPT when it came to my dad's one nighter with mom's best friend.

No, for that mom had to yell at dad in front of us, over and over and over and over every time they had a fight about something else. I honestly believe we would have been better off not knowing. There was no reason at all for us to know. It served no purpose whatsoever.

And as for teaching a lesson? The only lesson I learned from it is if you screw up, never ever ever confess (which my dad did) because you'll pay for it the rest of your life. Save the explanation and life lessons for when the kids go off to college. Then they might benefit from it.

Now unless the WS is stupid enough to get the kids to lie for her, in which case they already know anyhow, there's really no reason for the kids to know. Don't want to keep secrets from them? Well, gee do you tell them everything that goes on in the bedroom too? No, of course not. Is that lying? No. It's just keeping your private ADULT life separate from the KIDS.

And I don't buy the idea that the BS can really tell the kids about the affair without bashing the WS. It's too emotional - it can't happen in MOST cases. That's another reason you shouldn't tell the kids anything unless you have to. Most likely you'll screw it up.

I really don't understand the ones who bring their OM around and get their kids to lie to them, though. With my past OMs, none of them even met my kids except one, only one time and ONLY because my husband demanded a divorce (over something else entirely) and I honestly thought it was a serious request.

Sorry Aphrodite, but Dr. Harley disagrees with you and he is right. Children are very effected by adultery and have every right to know the truth about their own lives. It most certainly IS "their business" since it directly effects them. Children can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies.

p.s. your analogy completely misses the mark because no one here is advocating fighting with their spouse and screaming about the affair "over and over and over again." Completely different breed of cat.

*********************************************FOGHORN ALERT********************************************

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Well Aphrodite, I see that I hit the nail on the head when I asked about you being a WS on davethebrewer's thread...WS logic is pretty easy to spot...It is ALWAYS twisted as H E L L...

I'm sure others will have the good sense not to listen to you on the issue of telling the children...You are DEAD WRONG...

Mrs. W

I disagree that the BS cannot be subjective about this. I am not bashing my WH when I say that he is living with another woman, and that is wrong when you are married. NO bashing there. Bashing is saying your daddy is an SOB this and that, and FRANKLY, your parents did a poor job of it, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do.

How do you wait to explain what's going on, to a 4 year old, until they are in college? So ommission is fine. Right, what do you say when asked, "Hey, Mom, why is daddy living with that OW" "Who is she" "Why doesn't dad live here, again?" OR what if your kids don't talk at all, and begin to make assumptions that they may be the reason that mommy/daddy left. What then? Do you just let them suffer in silence, or do you lie and say EVERYTHING is going to be alright. It's not going to be alright, not for some time.

I just can't see how you would advocate not saying anything. NOTHING.

how sad for you children to have a mother who can say "my past OMs"

ugh..

But luckily her hubby wanted a divorce, but for something else. Wonder what THAT was?

Aphrodite:

Thanks for describing how NOT to tell the children. But adequately describing HOW many children find out.

As for your relationships with OM's?

Big story there. Start a new thread and let us know about it.


Gang:

Lets keep this thread on subjext.


So,

Lets use an example of what can happen IF a child in never informed properly:

Child: "I was bad at school today, I didn't turn in my homework and the teracher sent me to the prinicipal's office"

Wayward parent: "Well, you are a naughty child, and for that you are to be punished"

And the wayward parent moves out the next day, or next week and the child is never really told why.

And the CHILD associates thier bad behavior, with the parent leaving, and it's THIER Fault that the parent left....

Real difficult baggage to carry around.

And if NO ONE, either the Betrayed, or the even the Wayward, explains the difference, the child internalizs the WRONG thing.

I can make no greater argument for telling the children.

In my situation, my eldest daughter (then 13) figured it all out for herself because of OW pestering our homephone. I answered her questions honestly and confirmed an A. She went to pieces that night - I felt she lost that beautiful childhood innocence that comes with KNOWING your parents would never do anything to harm you. That's how I grew up and probably why I was so stunned and blind-sided at 40 to discover my husband's A. I hope that my daughter will grow up a bit wiser than I did.

I didn't want to tell my twins (then 8). One of them is a pretty smart kid though and asked me, in his absence, if dad "had a girlfriend". My confirmation brought tears that lasted a whole night. We cuddled in her bed and she was definitely an altered child for a couple of weeks. She was found crying hysterically at school in a corner over 'a book being lost' and it was at that time everyone at school was made aware of our situation (I work at the school). That was hard.

My third daughter is asthmatic. BEFORE I told her about her dad's A, I should have got her to use her puffer because we ended up in ER at 1am with her having a severe asthma attack triggered by panic/stress/upset. Can't even think about this night without upset because I didn't handle it right. I assumed her twin sister had told her what was going on when I started to talk to her when, in fact, she knew nothing.

Thinking back to this is very painful to me but I'm glad they know. TT

Oh, LG, that gave me a chill. How terrifying for a child in that predicament. Probably very similar to the situation that my mother suffered at the ripe old age of 5 when her father left, and her mother said nothing, or nothing good.

LG, trying your hand at cat herding? lol You may find that to be a disppointing endeavor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

tucktummy, my son is four almost five and this all began right after his third birthday. Poor kid has been put through the ringer. Aside from having your daughter prepared with her meds, you did well.

No matter how much we try to hide from them, the moment that the A happens, their worlds change, forever.

Aphrodite:


This is yet one more example of adults who did not get help for their infidelity issues. You took the lesson one way.

Another way might have been with another child that adultery is probably a really bad idea. I also got the full treatment when I was a kid from my mother bleeding all over me about my (hated) step-father having an ONS with a hooker when he was out of town. I had a hard time handling it at the time. I saw up close and personal how hard it was for her to deal with it. The effect on me was for me to keep my fly zipped around married women (as a single guy) and to honor my vows when I got married. But hey, I am a guy and maybe females are different, you think?

Welcom to MB. I note that you are what could be called a wayward. Don't let Mrs. W run you off. There is a place here for you - but be cautioned that how you think today is going to be very much different than how you think at a time in the future when you rebond with your family, if that is what you want to do. There are plenty of stories here that will give you a different perspective on the subject of affairs than you might get just from your immediate personal experience and social circle.

They let it all hang out here for the most part. And this is a pro-marriage, anti-affair recovery forum. That is the way it is. So pro affair entitled comments are not well received, mostly because the people here have been there, done or seen that and they understand way more than you will believe at this stage of your life. In other words, they understand the difference between cognitive justification and reality.

Mrs. W once danced in your shoes, so she is way better qualified to understand your mind set than am I. In other words, how you think now is NOT how you are going to think when you are in a different place in your life. Her reaction to your thinking is living proof of that. I must confess that I was a bit shocked that she went off on you like that, but I guess she had her reasons. Perhaps she could sense that your personal experience with infidelity had not conditioned you as well it might have to the utter emotional devastation that affairs bring to the landscape of life - to the millions and millions of those affected.

If you have some issues you want to talk about, by all means start a thread. You will find sympathy and real advice. Do be prepared to have people challenge your mind set. And they might not even be kind about it. But if you are honest in wanting to figure out where you are and where you are going, this place is pretty good at helping.

Larry

Larry, I think her example has nothing to do with infidelity and children, but rather, fighting in front of children and using past affairs as weapons. I suspect our good friend, aphrodite, is here to defend AFFAIRS, not children, given her attitude.

Aphrodite wrote:
So I doubt she will get much sympathy here. Sympathy is better reserved for victims, IMO. She is not here for help, so don't worry about MrsW, or anyone else, "running her off" of "going off on her." She deserved at least that for crowing about all her OMs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> If she wants to come here and crow about all her OM, she may have a very rocky road in her future. Crowing about all your affairs on an anti-affair forum may result in having your [censored] handed to you. On a platter. I know I will be first in that line. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hopeful

So far, nobody has addressed your point. I am not trying to be unkind, but lack of paragraphing makes your post hard to read and that might be the reason; they overlooked what you asked.


Very, very good issue. I will think on it, it is NOT trivial, nor is it easy for me (maybe it is just me) to deal with your question.

I hope that someone with more experience than me can jump in here and say something that helps. Affairs seem to branch off from the family tree - but the spin you take is unusual, at least in my mind, but also valid. It needs addressing.

Larry

Hopeful, unless you EXPLAIN to her that it was wrong and WHY it was wrong, she will grow up thinking it is PERFECTLY FINE. Your silence indicates approval. She senses it was wrong, but if you neglect to give her moral guidance and VALIDATE those feelings, she will conclude that her instincts are WRONG and learn to DOUBT HER INSTINCTS. This will create great moral confusion.

This is why it is important for parents to tell their children and give them the MORAL GUIDANCE they need. They don't have the judgment or maturity to guide themselves, that is the job of the PARENT.

My mother was SILENT about my fathers affairs and we all grew up profoundly morally confused and some of us are SERIAL CHEATERS who don't know right from wrong. AS A RESULT. My brother is a serial cheater because my father, the serial cheater, DID give him moral guidance that my mother failed to provide. He taught my brother that "you have to do what makes you happy, son." He is a serial cheater who is shacking up with a married woman he met on the internet. Like father, like son.

Larry & MelodyLane,

Thanks for your input, & my apologies for my previous post being a bit unclear!

ML, we did explain to our DD & DS that what Daddy did was morally wrong, and why, when we told them of the A. However, we have not spoken to them about the issue since. I have occasionally asked each child if there is anything they'd like to discuss re Mommy & Daddy's relationship, and each always says no. My concern is more whether or not we are doing the right thing in shielding our children from the work we are both going through to recover from this and the pain it has caused. From their perspective, Mommy & Daddy always had a civil, friendly relationship, but not particularly affectionate. Then the news that that "Daddy had an A," and now suddenly Mommy & Daddy are hugging, kissing, holding hands, going out on dates & telling each other "I love you." Do you see my concern? I certainly don't think the kids should be privy to our discussions, see my frequent tears, etc., but I also don't think they should have the mistaken impression that if you have an affair, all is easily forgiven and within days life is back to normal, in fact, even better!

I hope that is clearer than my first post, and thanks again for your comments <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hopeful:

Yes, I understood your point. I am still thinking about it and hopefully someone with a similar situation or at least the knowledge from somewhere, will step up to the plant.

Larry

Hopeful, I think you can be assured that your children understand the hurt and pain you went through because of this affair. Kids can sense their parents moods and can feel the tension in the air. I think what they see is a couple that was badly hurt by an affair, but was able to overcome it. I cant think of a more impactful lesson than that.

Larry...If someone TRULY wants help, nothing or no one could "run them off"-gosh that's a tired message 'round here...Please understand that I am simply not that powerful...

I initially came here spouting fog myself, and I can assure you that NO ONE "pat patted" me about it, nor should they have...Telling someone the TRUTH about their actions is the BEST thing for them...Aphrodite is a grown up and needs to hear just how horrific her actions as a WS are-based upon her advice given thus far in her posts here I do believe the present tense fits...Her behavior with multiple OMs is FAR more offensive than anything that I can say to her...


Sorry you were shocked there Lar, but I would hope that Aphrodite's triteness regarding her ACTIONS would be FAR more shocking to you than my calling bullsh*t was...

And Larry, I'm a big girl, if I think it necessary for me to temper my messages, I will...Thanks though...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

Hiya Mrs. W.


I was far more involved in the thread subject than anything else. And that is where my focus was devoted, not any cognitive garbage people use to explain themselves to themselves for lack of a solid moral compass. For whatever it is worth, I got run off a forum recently for being too harsh with waywards. And I didn't lose any sleep over it.

I saw that string of little blue men and said to myself, Mrs. W???? Wow... She is not a happy camper. Never seen her do that before. And yea, I get it. You're a big girl, go get git em, as they say in Texas.

Larry

It's all good Larry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And you know what? I'd be glad to offer Aphrodite support if she chose to ask for help...So far though she's been spewing a lot of fog 'round here and just trying to raise a ruckus, kwim?

Mrs. W

Hopeful:

Ok, I thought about it. Here is my take.

It is up to you to talk to your kids that there are some lessons in life that even grownups can learn. The lesson that you and your husband have learned is that forming an emotional relationship with someone you are not married to is not a good thing when you are already married to someone else.

Often these kinds of deals are a symptom that something was wrong with the marriage that each should have been working on to fix but didn't, for whatever reason. Your dad and I have figured out what was wrong and fixed it. Since each person in life has their own sometimes different issues, what we did and why isn't important.

What is important is that at least this one time, you guys should learn from our example and not go out and try what happened to us to see if it has a postive result for you. Most of the time it doesn't. We got lucky and we worked at it and one of the reasons we did is that we have you guys to think about.

When the time comes when you start thinking about love and a family of your own, you can trust us to suggest both the right way to do it and help you avoid the wrong way, which almost killed our marriage. We love you. We not only want you to be happy, we want you to be happy because you learn to do the right thing each and every day for those who put their trust in you hands.

Larry

how sad for you children to have a mother who can say "my past OMs"

Not really, because they don't know anything about it and since I'm quitting, they never will.

MelodyLane,

No, I'm not defending affairs. In fact, I'm quitting. Why else would I be here?

As for crowing about my affairs - no, I said OMs because saying "OM" would not be truthful. I'm not going to lie to look good in front of a bunch of people I don't even know, especially while in the midst of trying to get OUT of the habit of lying to people whose opinions I DO care about.

What I AM defending is children against being used as pawns by one parent against the other. And I think that's what happens 90% of the time one parent decides to tell "the truth" about the other. People say hurtful things all the time in the name of "just being honest."

Yeah, if there is an actual separation, I agree you need to tell them what happened. But unless the ex or WS is being completely unreasonable, what about telling the kid TOGETHER? And agreeing to something beforehand that is age appropriate and somewhat objective? I haven't seen a single post about cooperating with the other parent on this issue.

And who asked me about my husband's request for a divorce? He always has a different reason, and usually one that makes no sense - not just to me, but to other people I talk to. It's only been recently that I caught on to the fact that this is a pattern and that I can't take his words at face value.

MrsWondering said:
Aphrodite is a grown up and needs to hear just how horrific her actions as a WS are-

Your approach leaves much to be desired. I'm already fully aware of the horrific things that can happen IF I get caught. Unlike most WS I am not looking to leave my husband, nor have I been caught. There is no separation, no need for a plan A or plan B. I suspect my efforts to stay connected with my husband while simultaneously carrying on affairs have not been altogether successful and THAT is what woke me up. There is a lot of information about the harm of discovered affairs, but not a lot about undiscovered ones or harm that happens BEFORE discovery. But that's another thread...perhaps I'll start one unless someone beats me to it first.

Aphrodite, suggestion: if you are here to learn, take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your MOUTH. You are hardly in a position to help anyone here when you can't even help yourself and clearly know NOTHING about Marriage Builders principles. [please note the sign on the door, that may clue you into what folks are here for]

We are here to learn Marriage Builders principles, not the "principles" of some fogged out wayward spouse who can't even help herself.

If you really want "help" then start your own thread and ask for it. But fix yourself before you commence fixing others.

So Aphrodite...Start and thread and ask for help...Stop trying to give out advice when as an active WS you are in no position to do so...

Based on your "IF I get caught" comment, I'm guessing that you intend to keep your affairs from your husband, is that correct?

Mrs. W

P.S. I like my posting style which is EXACTLY why I use it! Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aphrodite wrote:
============================================
IF I get caught. Unlike most WS I am not looking to leave my husband, nor have I been caught. There is no separation, no need for a plan A or plan B. I suspect my efforts to stay connected with my husband while simultaneously carrying on affairs have not been altogether successful and THAT is what woke me up. There is a lot of information about the harm of discovered affairs, but not a lot about undiscovered ones or harm that happens BEFORE discovery. But that's another thread...perhaps I'll start one unless someone beats me to it first.
============================================

So, are your children your husbands' or the offspring of the other men?

I'm not going to verbally beat you up. I am going to tell you the truth. You won't like it, and you probably won't believe it, but you will not be able to run from it.

Here it is; If you don't tell your husband the truth, it is going to eat your guts out. Slowly, insidiously, inexorably, it will gnaw at you. There is no escape.

You can run. You can drink, self-medicate, chase other men, divorce, remarry, move away, but it is always going to be with you, no matter where you go, worse with every passing hour.

There is a way to minimize the pain, and that is to come clean - NOW. The longer you wait, the worse the damage to you and everyone involved, that includes your children.

All the best,
Gimble