Wow...radical truth! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Larry, you are right, that is something you would want to work out with her, I agree. I do not think, though, that it is respectful to a child to delude them about their parents. Sometimes it is the truth that is BAD, not the telling of the truth. In giving those facts, I think it is essential to couple it with moral guidance. Without that, moral confusion is created because there is no context and certainly no mature judgment with which to assess those facts.

Longhorn


Sheesh Longhorn, I am a Texan and thus incapable of being a lesser man. What were you eating, er, drinking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Before we both get shouted down for being Texan, I will move on.

Thank you. As long as I have been on this forum, I have never seen a detailed discussion of what and how to talk to the kids. I think that most folks skip around to whatever is bothering them of the moment or where they think they can help, as the case may be. There is too much here for limited time to take it all in.

So, no regrets for bringing it up now. From your own experience you know better than most just how important this subject is and will continue to be. It almost needs a sticky here or over on just found out.

Believer: Great find. change he to she and it becomes unisexual.

Keep the cards and letters coming folks, it doesn't get any more important than this, IMHO.

Larry

Oh, I must chime in on something sort of related. My biological/real father was an alcoholic (he passed away from complications when I was ~18). When I was old enough and had questions about why I had no daddy, my momma told it to me straight and sweet, tenderly, with no anger. She told me that my dad had a drinking problem (it was the 70's) and that he would get mean and hit mommy and threaten harm to us, so she had to take us and leave, but daddy always knew where we lived and our phone number, so he could contact us.

It was a tough pill to swallow when he never called, and when I felt damaged by this, my mother would hold me and kiss me, tell me how she was there for me, and would help to absorb the pain (I know now how very difficult this must have been for her). She was honest. I am holding back the tears as I write this, not because my mother hurt me, but because my father was a ******, and a waste and he hurt me, and I will carry that with me always. BUT, I know I was not to blame, I know that I was a wonderful being that deserved his love.

TELL THE KIDS. Tell them. I am fairly well adjusted, with some abandonment issues (obviously stemming from my father) but my siblings were not so lucky. My brother KNEW of the fighting and hitting and abusive behavior, HE SAW AND HEARD IT (we did not leave until he was 8)! He hates his father and deals with depression for life, as well as being VERY WARY of women, evil women. He, himself, is into the drink far too much, but he has no children, no wife, no girlfriend. My sister was 3 when we left, and deals with abandonment in a much deeper way than I do. REMEMBER, she was three, so she remembers noise, and her daddy, but she doesn't remember pain and hitting and arguing. She has lead a life very similar to 2long's daughter.

TELL THE KIDS, tell them now, not later, not when they ask, but before they ask. Write it down and practice if you must. Send the letter here, we'll all chime in. Do not wait.

If you are here, and you are reading this, then you have all the support in the world (literally) on these boards and with the Harley's to help you find an appropriate way to tell the kids. Don't make excuses that they are too young, as that is just hogwash. They know, they feel pain, don't let them continue to formulate WHY they feel pain on their own, because they WILL point the finger at themselves.

Dave:

I am uncertain what you did that was so bad. But I don't need the details. You are making a decision what is best for your kids and you are in the best position to know.

Putting the kids in the middle hasn't been fully developed in this thread except by what you have said. That you have past sins that could be put on the table by your wife to counter anything you say to the kids certainly muddles up the water to a degree. So long as you are making your decision for the right reason(s) instead of the wrong one(s), you will be making the best of what is a terrible event in their lives.

At the same time, you may or may not be aware of what your WW is telling the kids. Be cautioned that she may be urinating in their ears when you are not around. I hope not, but nothing would surprise me that a WS does.

Larry

SilentL

Thank you. I had no father. I understand.

Larry

Ah, Dave, what goes for one parent goes for the other. If you have done some things in the past that could have harmed the children, now is the time to man up about that, and let your children know how wrong whatever and such and such is, and how you are working to remedy that.

None of this is easy, it is just the opposite, and we all know that. Talk to your kids, start with a little and fill in as you go. These talks don't have to be an offensive, just small bits of info here and there, opening the floor for discussion and answering best you can, or letting them know that you will get help to FIND the answers and get back to them.

This is a great thread, because it’s something I’m battling with RIGHT NOW. I had Exposure Day this immediate past Sunday. I’ll share how I did it in a moment, but here’s WHY.

It was brewing for some time, but what really pushed me to do it was a cell text exchange with my WW about if she told the boys—ages 8 and almost 7 (16 mos apart)—where she was going when she left for the airport last Saturday afternoon. She said no. I responded that I can’t keep lying to them. Her response was, quote, “For the record, no one ever asked you to lie.”

Well, over the past 4+ months that I’ve been doing my own Plan A, I’ve gotten right with myself, and HONEST with myself, flaws and past transgressions and all. My intent has always been to fix my marriage, but any chance of that can’t happen as long as her A continued. And I have been the one to dodge questions from the kids such as “When is Mommy coming home?” and “Will Mommy be back for dinner tonight?” and “Why is Mom always going to &$% on the weekend?” That inflicts a pain on your psyche that I’m sure many of you can relate to. In many ways, I was enabling her.

I realized that if I am to be a man of integrity, I couldn’t preserve theirs by keeping them in the dark, nor by overtly lying to them. And at this juncture, I decided that a non-answer was the same as lying. I can’t be honest with myself by not being honest with them.

HOW: I was fortunate that I had been having several discussions with the boys about making choices. Few minor arguments with schoolmates, behavior at home, fighting with each other, usual boy stuff and trying to ingrain and inculcate solid values. So I couched it in those terms. That Mommy and Daddy are working through some grown-up feelings and that I hope we can talk about them, but that WW is choosing to talk to someone else about it instead. And I made it absolutely clear that it was neither of their faults, that they are loved no matter what. That’s the Reader’s Digest version.

I’ve battled with the disclosure to them. I have read before that it requires “brutal” honesty, but I think that can “brutalize” kids more than giving them the straight dope but sans gory details.

Now God forbid it get to the point of DV proceedings, at which point I’m sure more details will get to them, but right now, they need to be loved, know that something is awry, but details only age-appropriate. And by that, I would favor disclosing less than more by nature.


That is brilliant!!! Outstanding response!

Well I hope its alright to add my situation to the thread - it comes from a different perspective where the kids may know before the BH.

BT I am a naturalized Texan. Came down from north of the border across the Detroit River. My sons are native Texans however-probably why they took matters in their own hands.

in my situation my sons (17 & 23) at the time figured out something was amiss with their mom before I fully comprehended my situation. I was in a mild panic state because I was discovering my W was hving a lot of contact with a particular OM. The OM lives in the park cities, loaded with money and was putting the pressure of a better life to her. He wanted a new trophy girl on his arm for the nightlife and out of town Vegas trips.

Long story short - without my knowledge (until after), the boys both decided to go down and have a little visit with OM and find out his motives. My sons are not small by any means - they are over 6ft, around 185lbs, work as PT personal trainers on the side and could bench 245lbs at the time. Not sure what was said but they poured cold water on the fire.

They also had a chat with their mother that I overheard - I do recall them saying wTF to you see in that ferret face. She replied he is nothing and will not replace your father.

I am glad on one hand that they helped on their accord but on the other hand - it could have been a bad scenario. I wished they would have come to me first so we could work out a plan together instead.

My background is that I am from a good size Can-ItaI family and I am afraid the boys were concerned that had any word leaked to one of my brothers - there would be more problems. I am sure it was preventive action on their part. My W was definately going through a MLC at the time and the kids definately noticed the wierd environment around the house.

Thanks for listening - interesting thread and points of views being expressed.

rwinger:

Very interesting! And yes, a total different slant.

Everyone should live in Texas. We almost have the room, if not the desire to have it happen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


What? They clean up NorthWest Hwy to the point where an entitled arsewipe from Park Cities has no place to go for that squeeze????? And here I thought Baby Dolls was still doing a public service keeping males like that off the street.

Larry

Very interesting thread. We, too, told our 12 yr old DD and 9 yr old DS, since they were aware something was up, that Daddy had wrongfully had a relationship w/ another woman besided Mommy, but he had stopped. We also told them that we both still loved each other, loved them, and that Mommy and Daddy realized they hadn't been treating each other very well, were going to start seeing a MC and treating each other the way married people should. We have been working hard at recovery and are doing fairly well. I am, however, having the usual BS troubles, and the other day my DD stumbled upon me in a crying jag. I struggled over what to tell her, and at first told her it was nothing. But then I rethought it and decided to be honest wth her, to tell her that even though things are OK now w/Mommy & Daddy, that Mommy still had some days when she was sad about what had happened to us, that at times my heart still hurts. I have had nagging doubts all along about "keeping up appearances" in front of the kids, esp. my DD. Not that I want to have discussions about my FWH's A in front of the kids, but on the other hand, to just pretend like everything's great, that we just snapped our figners and all is wonderful, seems a bit wrong as well. My DD is old enough to know what her father did was VERY wrong, and sometimes I almost feel it is a disservice to her, as a woman herself someday, to make it seem like it was perfectly fine with me that her father did to us what he did. Does that make sense? I don't want either of my children to think that someone can have an A, and life just goes on as usual. In fact, from their perspective, our marriage seems better! And in their young minds, they could get the wrong idea from that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Any thoughts?

No. Not telling them is not the same as lying. My parents told me "It's none of your business" more times than I can count EXCEPT when it came to my dad's one nighter with mom's best friend.

No, for that mom had to yell at dad in front of us, over and over and over and over every time they had a fight about something else. I honestly believe we would have been better off not knowing. There was no reason at all for us to know. It served no purpose whatsoever.

And as for teaching a lesson? The only lesson I learned from it is if you screw up, never ever ever confess (which my dad did) because you'll pay for it the rest of your life. Save the explanation and life lessons for when the kids go off to college. Then they might benefit from it.

Now unless the WS is stupid enough to get the kids to lie for her, in which case they already know anyhow, there's really no reason for the kids to know. Don't want to keep secrets from them? Well, gee do you tell them everything that goes on in the bedroom too? No, of course not. Is that lying? No. It's just keeping your private ADULT life separate from the KIDS.

And I don't buy the idea that the BS can really tell the kids about the affair without bashing the WS. It's too emotional - it can't happen in MOST cases. That's another reason you shouldn't tell the kids anything unless you have to. Most likely you'll screw it up.

I really don't understand the ones who bring their OM around and get their kids to lie to them, though. With my past OMs, none of them even met my kids except one, only one time and ONLY because my husband demanded a divorce (over something else entirely) and I honestly thought it was a serious request.

Sorry Aphrodite, but Dr. Harley disagrees with you and he is right. Children are very effected by adultery and have every right to know the truth about their own lives. It most certainly IS "their business" since it directly effects them. Children can deal with the truth, they cannot deal with lies.

p.s. your analogy completely misses the mark because no one here is advocating fighting with their spouse and screaming about the affair "over and over and over again." Completely different breed of cat.

*********************************************FOGHORN ALERT********************************************

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Well Aphrodite, I see that I hit the nail on the head when I asked about you being a WS on davethebrewer's thread...WS logic is pretty easy to spot...It is ALWAYS twisted as H E L L...

I'm sure others will have the good sense not to listen to you on the issue of telling the children...You are DEAD WRONG...

Mrs. W

I disagree that the BS cannot be subjective about this. I am not bashing my WH when I say that he is living with another woman, and that is wrong when you are married. NO bashing there. Bashing is saying your daddy is an SOB this and that, and FRANKLY, your parents did a poor job of it, so I completely understand why you feel the way you do.

How do you wait to explain what's going on, to a 4 year old, until they are in college? So ommission is fine. Right, what do you say when asked, "Hey, Mom, why is daddy living with that OW" "Who is she" "Why doesn't dad live here, again?" OR what if your kids don't talk at all, and begin to make assumptions that they may be the reason that mommy/daddy left. What then? Do you just let them suffer in silence, or do you lie and say EVERYTHING is going to be alright. It's not going to be alright, not for some time.

I just can't see how you would advocate not saying anything. NOTHING.

how sad for you children to have a mother who can say "my past OMs"

ugh..

But luckily her hubby wanted a divorce, but for something else. Wonder what THAT was?

Aphrodite:

Thanks for describing how NOT to tell the children. But adequately describing HOW many children find out.

As for your relationships with OM's?

Big story there. Start a new thread and let us know about it.


Gang:

Lets keep this thread on subjext.


So,

Lets use an example of what can happen IF a child in never informed properly:

Child: "I was bad at school today, I didn't turn in my homework and the teracher sent me to the prinicipal's office"

Wayward parent: "Well, you are a naughty child, and for that you are to be punished"

And the wayward parent moves out the next day, or next week and the child is never really told why.

And the CHILD associates thier bad behavior, with the parent leaving, and it's THIER Fault that the parent left....

Real difficult baggage to carry around.

And if NO ONE, either the Betrayed, or the even the Wayward, explains the difference, the child internalizs the WRONG thing.

I can make no greater argument for telling the children.