HI, I have posted before. FWH had an affair Christmas of 2005. We are still recovering from a lot of pain. My biggest problem is that I don;t feel comfortable with H going out alone with his friends. I felt this way before and after the A. Before the A H would complain that I was being controlling. He had about enough right before our tenth anniversary. About this time, I was feeling good about our marraige. I began agreeing to him going places like bars and concerts with his friends. I was giving him the space that he wanted. Right after ou ten year mark, H started going out everynight after working at a local ski resort (About twice a week). He ended up having an affair.

Here is my dilemma, H's biggest need is freedom (I.e wants to go out with his friends 2X month in the evenings until 12:00 to 1:00am) I don't feel good about it. I have told him before I don't feel good he says it is because I am a cotroling $%^@^$. I feel like when I gave him space, he screwed up our marriage. I don't want to be controlling, but I don;t feel appreciate when he goes out with the guys. He never wants to go out with me anymore. Oh and one other thing, when we were firt married, he went out on a deployment. It was his birthday, the other guys bought him a lap dance. He never told me. When I found out he was embarrased and said that is why he hadn't told me. I am a pretty laid back person when it comes to that. I would have thought it was humorous if h told me. Instead, I learned that he was a liar. HELP, I want to meet his emotional need for times with his friends, but I want to feel good too!

Well, my H went out with some friends after a hockey game and ended up having an affair... so I should just bow out of this one.

I would trust your initial feelings and find a way to explain to him why you feel that way.

Do you two follow any plan to rebuild your marriage? Does your H want to rebuild the M? Something is not connecting here.

My H also had a couple of ONS with a scanky co-worker after nights out at a bar with friends.

My H's time with the guys NOW includes golfing and Christmas shopping for the wives! No more bars.

Since when is hanging out in bars with the guys an emotional need? I didn't see that one on the questionaire.

Well that was my point. I'm a guy. Hanging out with other guys in a bar being my first choice means that I don't value my other options. Something isn't right with this picture.

Let's see. He wants to go out to bars. He does not want to share that activity with you. Sounds like he wants freedom to do what he wants without consideration of his family.

Knowing that this would be a trigger for you, he still does it. What plan are you following?

Sadly, I don;t know how to answer that. Let me see, I will try to be short:

History: Married 10 years exactly before the A.
A began after H gave me a big new ring for our anniversary (still very confusing to me)

I didn't like the way he presented it (H says: Here I could have bought two kayaks for the price I paid for that)

At the time we were going through serious emotional stress:
Over the course of two years before the A this is what happend:

-new baby
-son hospitalized and almost died
-dog of 9 years dies
-we move
-our new house molds
-kids have severe allergic reactions and are sick constantly for 7 months until we discver the root of the problem
-move out of our house into the house with my dad whom I hadn't spoken with in 7 years
-his family disowns us claiming that we are nuts for moving from our house and that mold is not a problem ( H gets in first argument with his family - i think ever)
-H has a heart condition and is evluated for by many tests
-H stops drinking ( beer or two a night) and loses 65 pounds
-H damages knee and goes through physical therapy for 6 months. They tell him they are going to have to break it and reset
-I start my own business after being a SAHM for 5 years.
-our rental mobile hoe is destroyed by renters and then stolen
-H loses a position that he has been waiting for for 7 years.

Okay, now A occurs and on D-day 1/7/06, I am like I love you and we will make it work. I find the quote below and begin to live my life by that. H says that A is over after I called OW and that he called off all PA before Christmas. EA until my phone call. H wanted me to throw him out. H says he wanted to feel that he was missing out on us and this would be a wake up call.We attend a crappy MC who pushhes my H into thinking about D. We stop going. I write countless posts and read HNHN and SAA a lot. H says he doesn't get the books and acts dumb. I feel we were both in the fog for awhile(6 months). Last summer goes well and things are fine by fall, when school starts again and we start bickering again. I still don't trust him. He refused to be transparent..... Won't meet my need for SF, Affection, says his only need is freedom and support from a non-controlling #$%@%#@.......


Okay here we are now, Lately we hav some of the worst fights ever, but they have been productive! AMzingly productive. H read and liked the article on why women leave men. He says it is exactly how he feels and I feel the same, but I don't know what to do next. I know that I can easily see his faults and where he needs to make change, but it is not so easy to see mine because the way he talks to me is awful. He name calls and yells and I can't pick out what is truth or what he is saying to hurt me. H says hurtful things so that I get angry and stop discussing things. He is a major Conflict avoider!!!!, BUT is beginning promising signs for recovery. I have worked really hard to not LB, and create a positive environment. H has just for the first time ever agreed that he has problems to fix. I think he also has depression and H has considerd the idea. Also H has agreed to go to MC, but I have yet to be successful finding a good counselor in the area. This will be our third counselor. I wnat some one who uses MB principles, but can't afford the Harley's. I have thought about a MB weekend, but don't know if that would help???

Sorry, I am so long winded, it feels good to get out all the pain.

Okay so you don't have a plan. You need a plan. Does H really want the marriage? Will he work for it?

No plan.

We are both exhausted- really tired of everything, BUT I think he would work to make it right. H says he is only here for the kids, but I know he loves me and wants the marraige. H still tries really hard to make things work- H does all the dishes and laundry and other things he thinks I want! I know h is triyng to do what I want, but it doesn't come natural to him. Meanwhile I am not asking for anything, but a kiss when he comes home, a phone call when he is at work... no more trips to the bar without me. I mean we are the perfect picture of the why women leave men aticle.


What do you suggest? We have already done HNHN and SAA and I bought the 5 step to romantic lve workbook to go with the LN and HNHN book. We have done the questionairre, but the things that he says I need to do are not concrete they are like, " stop being a controlling $$@$@ "

P, I am wanting affection and to be a part of everyroom in his house and H is wanting to only nclude me in his family part of the house. I don't think I even have my own room.

Tatertot, EN being that he has his own life. I say marriage is about being joined as one. His response is that everyone else that he knows is allowed to go out with the guys and hang out. Why can't he? Meanwhile, the group of people I hang out with- all the men do not find this necessary.

What if this is the deal breaker- H would leave if i don't agree to this?

DO I want someone who doesn't care how I feel?

See? Here is the first sign of trouble. Why would he buy TWO kayaks? He should have bought one kayak for you two to share.

Okay you need a plan. You need MC. You need to define terms. He says you are a controlling #$%@%#@. Have him define that for you. What behaviors do you have that give this result? How can you change if you don't have a benchmark? Otherwise that simply becomes an excuse.

You should talk. Maybe 30 minutes each day. No kids. Anything open. Make rules. No fights allowed during the 30 minutes.

You both agree on a few things. You both agree that your marriage sucks. You both agree that, for whatever reason, you want to try to stay together.

Now try to agree that things don't have to be as bad as they are. Agree that, with work, they can improve. Then get a plan.

I don't buy hanging with the guys is an EN. It is an avenue to something that is an EN. If he wants to hang with the guys, why not have poker night at your house? Same guys.

I like the garage. I hate it when WW puts anything in my garage. She can have the rest of the house but she needs to butt out of the garage.

Put that to music and you have a Country & Western superhit on your hands.

Was the M good before this? Did you two drift apart because of the stress? If so, you have a lot you can talk about. In fact, that is where I would begin the discussion if I were you.

"Agree that, with work, they can improve"- H won't agree to that and MC said that H can't admit when i make change for the better- he wants me to be this bad person ( I think because then he can feel okay for hurting me). I have made great improvements on my end!I really am a new person!Some things I don't feel good about changing like- agreeing that bar hopping is god for our marriage- I just want H to be happy!

controlling #$%@%#@. Have him define that for you- Defined- You have never let me do the suff that I wanted to do in life- I want to be able to once in awhile to go out riding with my BIL for the day, I want to go out with the guys when they asked me after work (H quote, "People don't ask me to do stuff anymore because they know I won't be able to go. I hate that! I want to be able to have things that are just mine to do like rock climbing and dirt bike riding. I don't feel like I know myself anymore. You know I have always liked to spend time alone. You must not care for me if you can't give me time to myself.")


Just talking about it makes me just want to give up. I will never feel good about him doing things without me when he shows he doesn't care. I know before our ten year anniversary, I was okay with him going out. I felt that he cared about me, I wasn't worried about anything. Now I am worried he is with some OW. Could it be H's EN to escape from the stress of our life? Another thing is I have never felt good about H going out in the beginning of our M because I was never invited. Also, H is away all the time because he just took a firefighting position. He has had these hours since we were first married. He spend a lot of time away and not time with us anymore. In the past three weeks I have only seen him 3 days. H seems to not have a problem with this.

I have suggested poker night or we have air hockey and fosball, but H desn't respond when I say these things.

Hmmm… Just a few thoughts. Maybe he doesn’t want to recognize that you can change because then he would have to consider change himself. He sounds like he is reasonably happy with the way things are. Maybe that is why he wants time alone. That “good” time offsets the “bad” time he spends with you. Kind of like working all week so you can enjoy the weekend.

I agree that bar-hopping is not good for any marriage. It may not be intrinsically bad but it is certainly not good. Certainly nothing positive will ever come from it.

I bet your H is not nearly as unhappy as he may let on. He seems to have negotiated a pretty good deal for himself. He says you are controlling. I see you as “clingy”. I see him as the one who is really controlling. Why? Because he is getting everything he wants and making you feel like crap in the process.

I think I saw a post on gaslighting yesterday. Now it seems like it is starting to fit you pretty good.

You can’t find the answer to this because you are asking the wrong question. And all you want is for him to be happy? Wow. I wish I had a wife like that. A wife who will give me everything I want or feel terrible if she doesn’t. What a heck of a deal!

Okay actually I don’t want a wife like that. But I think your H does.

If I had the choice between going to a bar with the guys or staying home or going out with my WW, I’d tell the “guys” to go fly a kite. Unless WW was scrapbooking – then I’d be heading for the bar in a flash.

He IS gaslighting her.

Reverse babble: Ok you can go out with the guys if I can too. *evil grin*

I guarantee he will not think that is as funny as I think it is. You are way too accomodating. He needs to grow up and be husband.

Larry

I'm not joking about that BTW. That is absolutely what I would do. Just call me Pavlov's dog. I would never give scrapbooking positive reinforcement.

So what can you do that is more interesting than a bar? How can you make not going to the bar a better experience than going to the bar? How can you make him salivate at the sound of the bell?

I think you two have been perfecting this little balet for years. You have more symbiosis than marriage. I believe in some way this fulfills you. I don't mean that negatively. Either your parents trained you for this or your H broke you. Some people are naturally servers anyway. It is an admirable quality. When taken to the extreme, it makes you a perpetual victim. So I think you may have a lot of good qualities that are somehow all working against your well-being.

"He would have to consider change himself"- Exactly!!!
Lately, I have suggested that he begin to own some of the problems- up until this point it has been, "if you didn't treat me so badly, i wouldn't have had the affair so it is your fault"- My new response is, just because I hurt you (eventhough, i don't think I have)it doesn't give you the excuse to do what you have done to me and the children. I say that it is not okay to hurt someone because you are angry. Look what you are destroying. H seems to be beginning to understand that i am not going to deal with the excuses anymore.


"I see you as “clingy”." H says that i am really clingy. I can understand why he says this. First, I have always had BF or men in my life shower me affection and time and involve me in every part of there life. I was always the girl with the group of guys, the one who hated all the girl stuff and would rather hang out in the garage rebuilding an engine than chatting with the girls. H likes me for being like that, but at arms reach. He has never involved me in his friends or stuff. I know I am clingy because i don't feel that I recieve the amount of time or energy I need. In return I cling on when I have a chance savouring what ever tidbit I get when he is around. If I had the time that his work or dirt bikes get then I would be great! It is not even time, it is energy directed to thinking about me. I could easily be with a man who spent a lot of time at work, but when he came home I was important. It is ironic that you say he is controlling bc others on MB have said the same thing. How do you see him being controlling?

"You can’t find the answer to this because you are asking the wrong question."- what question do I need to be asking? Is it plain and clear and I am missing the picture or what?

You are asking the question "how can you improve your marriage?". The question you need to ask is "why is NOT improving the marriage in the better interest of my H?".

That is where I think you should start. I don't think you understand that your H really likes the way things are. You being clingy is beneficial to him because he can use it against you.

Let me put this simply. He is getting everything he wants and he makes you feel like you are to blame in the process. Who do you think is driving this bus? He is clearly in control of you, your emotions, the marriage, his life. He plays you like a Stradivarius.

He wants you to believe you are the control freak because it is how he can justify his bar-hopping and shut you up in the process.

Read Larry's thread on gaslighting or the Mulan post referenced there. See if you find yourself in that mirror of self-reflection. Obviously I don't know you. This is just my impression. I'm also not very smart as most here will attest.

What is your #1 EN? My guess would be admiration.



I DO hope you don't actually tell him the part in parenthesis. It serves no purpose to tell him that. Think it all you want - just don't say it.

LArry- H would say go have fun, He would say I want you to do these things. I want you to enjoy your life.

I'll hop over to gaslight.

H really could careless if I went out partying, bar hopping, or whatever. He thinks this sort of thing is acceptable. Even if it is with the guys. At least that is what he says. My friends think h needs to grow up too!

"Either your parents trained you for this or your H broke you. Some people are naturally servers anyway. It is an admirable quality. When taken to the extreme, it makes you a perpetual victim. So I think you may have a lot of good qualities that are somehow all working against your well-being." - I do have this martyr chrachteristic. Just look at my quote below. I really feel that I should give everything of myself in order to make the other happy. I feel this is love. My parents conditioned me well. They were very self serving and I was always willing to obliged until they hurt me badly. All this was in the name of GOD. You need to treat others as you wished to be treated and GOd says that you should do everyhing for your parents....- only problem is that I didn't know that I wanted to be so selfish like them. Thanks, I do think this is a grest chrarcteristic and a bad one. I know I am a good person, people appreciate this (except my H takes advantage of it).


So what can you do that is more interesting than a bar? How can you make not going to the bar a better experience than going to the bar? How can you make him salivate at the sound of the bell?- Good question- I have no idea. He doesn't want SF or FC or RC, he just wants to go party. I can't hink of a single thing that he enjoys besides going out.

Oh, I never tell him that I think that I don't need to change, but I have told him that I have worked hard to change and expect some kind of change from him.

Oh and my #1 is a toss up between affection and SF. I'll tkae SF when I don't get affection (mostly because I feel that you are getting a lot of affection during SF and Idon't see it the rest of the time. LAtely, H refused to give me affection duirng SF. It is like going through the motions without showing any feeling- so bland and boring!)

Burn your dictionary and go buy a good one.

Some things I have learned in this process. One is you cannot now nor ever will be able to make your H happy. That is NOT your job. Only he can do that for himself.

What I said earlier is true. You are fulfilled by this. Playing the martyr meets one or more of your EN's. Good news is that it keeps you in a bad M. Bad news is it keeps you in a bad M.

Can I ask? How do you feel about yourself? Do you love yourself? Do you respect yourself? If you cannot, don't expect H to either. It would be a double standard.

Oh and change that gawd awful sig line. What a load of crap!

The movie "Network" comes to mind.

I have a great self-esteem! I am a wonderful person!- I know it! H likes to destroy this feeling- he is constantly saying how awful I am. When I respond that everyone else loves me, he says that if I treated them the way I treat him, then I would have no friends. I don't buy that anymore!

Not to sound too into my self, but I think there should be more people in the world like me. I spend my life working for nothing and sometimes giving my money to give underpriviledged children a chance for good schooling in the Preschol years. I go out of my way for other people. I fight for what is right. I respect myself that is why I have asked H to leave a few times if he is unwilling to make change. H comes back. NOt invited- he says I pay for the house!

If I am guilty of giving too much and not loving myself enough, let me sigh in relief!!!!!!!!!!!!!I can live with that (well no I can't, but it is better than contolling and unsupportive and a selfish ^#%^#^%#- all the things I detest in other people). No matter how you think of someone, if they ocntinue to tell you how awful you are, you start to believe some of it.

But I need my dictionary to check my awful spelling/typing mistakes- if you can handle reading my spelling errors, then I'll agree to burn it!

Search on my name. See the spelling thread. Get the google toolbar.

Larry

Hey, I have the google toolbar, but have been so blind that I could use it. Sometimes blatantly obvious things are hard to see!

By the way, piojitos, that line of crap is from the Pope!

You have given me some great things to think about. What do you see is the next step?(Here I go at doubting my decisions)

I think he is sort of cake eating-isn't the response to that Stop giving cake. My idea of this would be to do a 180 or just stop being around for him- like separation for a while, but then I think that may make us lose love. I am perplexed.


Hey that toolbar works well!!!

I suggested a new dictionary because your definition of love is off.

And you are using the Pope as an authority on marriage because?

I'm not Catholic but I don't THINK the Pope has ever been married. I'll google it to be sure.

Okay I'm not going to totally buy this right now. It is also my nighttime.

I think this long-suffering of yours help feeds your self-esteem. As I have been saying, as bad as this M seems to be, it is meeting a significant need of yours. Being the victim, on some level, makes you happy.

cfc - I don't think you and your husband have ever recovered from the affair. He sounds like he is too selfish and feels too entitled.

You sound like a good woman. While you are doing things for others, be sure to do things for YOU. Get some counseling for yourself to find out why you tolerate living with this man.

cfc, your WH sounds like a teenage boy rebelling against his mommy - not like a grown man trying to be a husband to his wife.

What is his opinion of POJA?
Mulan

Okay several things- first piojitos, I hear what you are saying about being the victim. My mother played this role for many years. I could be doing this. I am not consciencely doing this, but I could consider this as an answer. I do think that helping other people feels good- but that's it. I don't want to play the victim, in fact I have tried to end the cycle, but I feel awful when he is gone and I feel that I didn't do what was right for my family. I do have to say my life has ALWAYS been in some type of conflict. So when I do have conflict, things seem okay. When there is no conflict, I have terrible anxiety about life- waiting for the next thing to happen. I have had about 0 anxiety over the past 3 years with everything going on. Maybe playing the victim helps me feel that there is conflict. Just an idea. I do think what you are saying is on the right track, but we haven't pinpointed it yet.

Believer- thanks- I am a good person even if pijtios thinks it is for the wrong reasons ( subconsciencely). I let this continue because I am scared of the pain of when he is gone. I think we all can relate to this. However, when he has been gone, I have been calm, relaxed and feeling like a weight has lifted and at the same time sad to not hear his jokes and see his smiles. I do try to do things for myself-occasionally ( like a bath every now and then.) Personally though, I feel better when I am doing things for others. That is truly what makes me happy. Especially for my kids, but the problem then is they expect a lot from me and when I can't always give it they act out. ( nothing extreme, but I am starting to see that my son, 7, expects everything done for him- Maybe pij is right or it could just be his age.

Mulan- all of my friends and family who hear the daily stories think like you. They think that H needs a 4x4 to wake him up because he is acting like a child/ teenager. It is funny that you relate him to having a fit to his mom as that is what he says that I am like. His mom was a controlling @#$%@%. She followed him around everywhere and opened his mail and checked his pockets and called his friends.... H relates me to her and they have been on bad terms since she pushed me and my 6 month old daughter down the hall to prevent me from leaving her house. I think H is transferring a lot of anger from her to me. Anyways I definitely agree to the childish behavior especially using me as an excuse to do the wrong thing.


POJA- H doesn't like it because he doesn't get what he wants. This is what I have been doing since the beginning of the marriage- H says it is controlling (i.e. he doesn't get 100% of what he wants). We have tried this many times, but H gets angry if he has to compromise bringing that everything has to be an issue to me and I can't just be happy that he is happy! Up until lately I have agreed to make him happy at my expense. Only because he has said would you rather let me have a few hours of fun every now and then, then lose me for good?

CFC

Please read both gaslighting threads. You need the information and an understanding of the concepts.

Larry

the first thread is yours right?
Is the other mulan's thread?

I will read them.

What is you next step? Are you in IC or MC?

CFC

My wife and I are about 99% recovered. Both of us still have some few residual issues, much of which is related to sadness. In fact, I have an old sadness thread that gets pulled from time to time by myself or others. You can find it on recovery if you search.

That said, both of us are dedicated to making this relationship work and raising our kids and generally just being a family that works, the family that is.

My purpose here is to continue to learn. I also attempt as best I can to help others. The gaslight thread I started is because I have recently become acquainted with the concept and I clearly see gaslighting going on with some of the posts here AND I see persons like yourself who appear to be victims of this control technique.

So far I have learned or think I have learned that gaslighting can be as mild as a Jewish Mom's Guilt Trip or as heavy duty as the situation you are in (my opinion).

All the best.

Larry

Passive/Aggressive behaviour is virtually always learned when kids are young teenagers and want to thwart their parents (especially Mom) without getting caught, without suffering consequences, and without looking like they did anything wrong.

Unfortunately, some kids get stuck in this phase and continue into adulthood with the emotional maturity of a sneaky 10-year-old.

That's why your WH hates POJA. He hates it because compromise is for grownups. Ten-year-olds want what THEY want and care nothing for what anyone else wants.

Unless and until your WH wants to learn to relate to other people, especially his wife, like an adult man instead of a like a sneaky 10-year-old, you can expect his selfish immature behaviour to continue.

The only thing YOU have to decide is whether you want to live that way or not. HE will keep on this way unless the consequences become too great for him to continue. And that's HIS consequences - not yours. As you have seen, he cares absolutely nothing for your pain - only his own.

There are some things you can try with a P/A, like calling them on their behavior. There is a lot of info on this on the MB thread in my sig line. But good luck. Some people are so addicted to P/A behaviour that they are simply not capable of functioning any other way.
Mulan

cfc,

I don’t have any impression that you are a bad person. I do think you have some problems with self-esteem and I think your belief in what it takes to be a good person is misguided. You are out of balance. You need to take and want to take but doing so gives you a sense of guilt because you think that to give give give proves your love. Self-sacrifice is your standard. It isn’t healthy. I think that your husband’s behavior and problems reinforces your need to be a victim so much that the relationship is near equilibrium. So you have a totally dysfunctional marriage that pretty much works. I think if you could get H to cave on one issue (i.e. not go to bars), you would stop right there and consider yourself ahead of the game.

H says you can have your own life too. How would he react to you having an A of your own? Most people in your sitch would be pretty vulnerable. Oddly enough I think you are a million miles from having an A. Why? Because having an A would take away your status as a victim. You would no longer be the longsuffering martyr wife sacrificing all for hearth and home. You would lose your right to be what you have worked so hard to achieve. You would no longer be able to consider yourself as noble a woman as your mother. I’m don’t know if you get on well with your M or not but I bet you respect at least that part of her. My mother was/is like you. I feel like I have known you all my life. Her mother was serious P/A. I was so happy for my mother when her mother (my grandmother) died. I thought she would finally get the peace I thought she deserved. She didn’t. She just found her much needed conflict elsewhere with other family members.

IMO you are a good person. You also have a lot of problems that could be fixed. I think you need to get help through IC to make yourself a better person (one with self-respect). Or you can continue the way you are and nobody would think any less of you if you did. Nobody is perfect. We all have our hangups. Most of us find a way to be successful in spite of them. But if you do get help and you do start to make positive changes in your life, I see possible divorce in your future. If you change, you will upset the equilibrium. To regain it, H would have to change too. He certainly needs to. But will he? You seem to think he won’t. I can’t speak for his behavior. I don’t agree with it. He does need to grow up.

Think of your marriage as two people on a seesaw and each is on a unicycle and juggling four bowling pins. You both have your own balances and also have to keep the M in balance. It is pretty tricky even in the best of circumstances. You can’t change him. He has to want to change himself. But if he does change and you don’t, you will also be out of balance.

I was just wondering...is there any chance that your husband is an alcoholic or an alcohol abuser? A lot of this sounds like alcoholic behavior to me...the yelling, name calling, blame shifting, happy only when he is partying, etc.

Just a thought....

BTW my mother actually got pleasure from self-pity. It was an EN. Complaining about her short end of the stick made her feel good. You are in a viscious cycle IMO. My mother lived reasonably successfully all her life that way. Her children paid a price, however. One of them is days away from paying the ultimate price.

piojitos,

"I think if you could get H to cave on one issue (i.e. not go to bars), you would stop right there and consider yourself ahead of the game."- You are probably right. In fact for many years and still it is the only issue that we argue about. BUT I have never felt loved or cared for from my H. So basically he has the bar issue and I have the need for more intimicy. I would fight for one, but not for the other. I would fight for his pain, but not my own. In the case of my need for intimicy, I would rather make an excuse for him (i.e. he is not capable and feel sorry for him and his condition). I found it very helpful to read Mulan's link above about passive agressive behavior. I feel much better about dealing with the whole situation. I think it is difficult though because it isn't that H doesn't want to care, it is just that he is uncapable. By saying that I have just made an excuse for him (placing me as the victim again didn't I?). Wow it is a hard cycle to break.

In reading the website, I felt that it is difficult to deal with this type of behavior in a spouse. I don't want to be the person who is the victim, my mom too played the victim, but for things that were really not a problem (She had to turn things into a problem because there was not enough conflict). Eventually, it pushed my Dad into an affair which ended the marraige and made her the ultimate victim. I never admired anything about my mother except her ability to comfort us when we were sick. In fact, I have tried very hard to not become her! She was a very selfish victim. We were all to suffer due to her problems. I fact A LOT of why I am so accepting is because, I don't want to be selfish like her!

How would he react to you having an A of your own? H has actually suggested it and says that h doesn't care what I choose. H also says that if I had an affair that he would have left me. He has no idea why I stayed. My response was that I love you enough to see us through this.

I do want you to understand that I feel that I am playing the victim in some ways ( think we all do). But, I don't feel that I play this roll all the time. First of all, I almost had a revenge affair on my H. After, I found out, he left for awhile and I called my ex-boyfriend. I could have easily had an EA with him and still want to, but When I read Harley's SAA book, I realized that I could hurt my H and stopped phoning him and asked the same of him. Again that is why i can understand why H felt badly enough to have an A how awful to feel that badly that you need to hurt someone else, it really is sad). Secondly, I imagine the victim taking a more passive role. I on the other hand, am reading book, visiting the website, trying to find a counselors. This is not a victims stance. Yes, a victim will complain to get pity, but will not do anything to stand up for themselves. I feel that I fight everyday to try to take myself out of this situation. Now that I have discovered what is really going on here and how i can deal with it, I definately will not be playing the victim anymore. In fact tomorrow, I have to go to get a mammogram for a lump that has developed, I am a bit nervous about going, so I phoned my H (knowing he has work tomorrow) I asked him if he would go becauseI am nervous and would like some support. H's response: hmmmm well what time? I tell uh well uh hmmm let me see.... for about 2 minutes... I finally told him you know what forget it I will go myself and hung up! Of course, I did call back and have an argument with lots of DJs regarding his ability to show that he cares. H is now not coming home again and says he is fine with a D. I probably should have left it at I will go myself. It is just so hard to deal with some things alone.

"H would have to change too. He certainly needs to. But will he? You seem to think he won’t. I can’t speak for his behavior. I don’t agree with it. He does need to grow up." -
That is what makes it so hard, I am so scared to upset the balance, not because I want to be the victim, but i am not sure what is more painful , delaing with the what is goign on now, or dealing with the pain of divorce. You are right, I do not forsee him ever changing. Why should he? I mean if he leaves the relationship, he will have every freedom that he has ever wanted. I wonder if that is more important than his family? especially when you have felt under control for so many years. And that everything associate with us is work for him. I hold on not to be the victime, but to show him that things can be good for him if there is change, but we do need help in getting there! Oh and are you willing to share more about what happend with your sibling? i am concerned for my kids.


sickofthis- "I was just wondering...is there any chance that your husband is an alcoholic or an alcohol abuser? A lot of this sounds like alcoholic behavior to me...the yelling, name calling, blame shifting, happy only when he is partying, etc." When I read the information about passive agressive behavior, it states that they make be involved in something habitual. Yes, alcohol is his choice, but he hasn't had more than 1 drink a day for while (since he found out about his heart condition). It helps him avoid reality!

Mulan,
"The only thing YOU have to decide is whether you want to live that way or not. HE will keep on this way unless the consequences become too great for him to continue. And that's HIS consequences - not yours. As you have seen, he cares absolutely nothing for your pain - only his own.-


So what was your response to this??? And how did you deal wth him accepting his consequence because consequently, it affects you too?

Hi CFC

Sorry to get involved late - apologies if this post is a distraction from the other great help you're getting.

Squid has always loved her independent behaviour. Her sport and sports get-togethers were very precious to her. Eventually she had an affair with a sport particpant so I was right not to like it all these years.

I never prevented her from going for years because she'd say I was controlling etc, she needed some time away. Seemed reasonable.

Thing is THEN I didn't prevent her doing this because I didn't want to be seen as controlling or unreasonable.

Pathetic huh ?

Since her A I STILL don't prevent her going out if she wants to. But the reason is different.

My objective is NOT to have a wife who stays home, but to have a wife who prioritises my hurt over her fun.

I want her to CARE enough to voluntarily stay home, or do something with ME instead, not just stay home and sulk and resent me.

A big difference since her A is that I have personal boundaries in place. Being knowingly hurt is a boundary I will not tolerate being violated for very long.

I explained this to Squid. "You can go anywhere, do anything, but I will decide if I want to be in a relationship with someone who does things knowingly that hurt me".

Now Squid hated that. She would much rather I banned her so she could resent me for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But everytime there was an opportunity for her independent behaviour that would hurt me, I would raise it as a POJA.

To begin with, right after d-day she would rebel. But quite soon she'd start asking me if I minded. ( not for permission, but to find out if I minded - for POJA ).

Now she doesn't even ask to do stuff that she knows are majorly hurtful, including overnight Karate tournaments, Karate social evenings without spouses etc.

And she POJAs almost everything with me now.

The final frontier is Local karate tournaments. She thinks that I SHOULDN'T be hurt by her refereeing them. We are working this through right now.

Also, her transparency has built up my trust to such a level that she goes out socially with her GFs and sisters with my blessing ! She txts me to let me know where she is and is careful to ensure I know of any changes and who was there. Without complaint.

So . Lots of words, but what am I saying ?

In summary : It is a boundary of mine that my spouse should place my heart's ease above her pleasure. If Squid violated that boundary persistently even now I'd quit.

You need to determine if this is a boundary of yours , or if it is a wish.

Big decision cfc.

All blessings.

What b0b said.
Mulan

b0b,

What a great example of boundaries vs demands. I have found success in my marriage with the very same sort of boundaries that define what I'll do to protect myself, rather than what I'll do to control my husband. I am not about limmiting/policing someone's freedom, but I won't sacrifice my safety if they aren't able to protect themselves or me...from their risky choices.

Well cfc, I don't see much in the way of hope. You can either learn to like the situation or get out of it. We all can. In your case, there is a much greater dynamic involved.

Since you asked, I will try to explain to an extent. My mother was quite the victim all her life. Noble is a word many would ascribe to her. But she had three children who needed her. My sisters were a fair vit older than me. For that reason I have always believed I was a forgotten trip to the drugstore.

Sis1 get pregnant at 16 and married an abuser. She kept hanging new pictures on the wall to cover the fresh holes where hubby swung at her and missed. She eventually ot out of that but her life has always been a mess. Her four kids all have major problems and will never have a "normal" life or marriage. Oldest DD of hers repeated her story. She got divorced when her H was in prison.

Sis2 is living on nothing but dextrose IV's. Result of anorexia, bulemia and a life of prescription drugs. She was a serial cheater as well. Sometimes she would do it just to get the prescriptions. She cannot eat food.

I was too young to "escape". My mother's victimage forced me to be the ultimate latch key kid. She would come home from school every two weeks and take me to the store so I load up on frozen TV dinners. Then she would head off back to school sacrificing for her family. I stayed by myself while she was away. I am an expert on TV dinners. I also know exactly when, as much as they would like to deny it, Swanson stopped putting the crust on the BOTTOM of the chicken pot pies. Bottom crust was the BEST crust. I have never respected Swanson since.

My sisters have always told me I was the least damaged of the three. I'm not so sure it is true. I do take responsibility for who I am however. That is something I took from the experience.

If my mother had been discovered treating me the way she did in 2007, she would go to jail. No joke. I don't mind. It was just a part of my life. Nothing I could do about it.

Sis2's troubles will soon be over. She always was the smart one of the three.

The point is I don't believe we were victims of my mom's victimage. I believe we were extensions of it. If she could show how she had to make her children suffer, it would make people "understand" how much she was suffering herself. Kind of like " oh poor me - look what they made me do to my children!" if you understand what I am getting at.

Piojito, I am so sad for you. It must be hard to deal with the continuation of the victim role. I am too the youngest of 4. Each of my sisters has developed some type of negative response to our childhood. My oldest cannot socialize and has difficulty maintaining relationships with anyone-even me. She is on extensive medication. My second sister lives in a self- absorbed world of despair constantly playing the victim role in everything. Her last victim role with my father in I played out in a series of whoa is me you didn't purchase us enough presents for Christmas- ironically the same Christmas of H's A. Anywho. The next oldest sister of mine is like myself constantly trying to fix others problems. I have, by watching each and everyone make decisions, manage to escape the bulk of the problems. I really think that my H's passive aggressive behavior coupled with my willingness to love him for who he has become, it the real problem. My enabling behavior has enabled me to feel cared for over the past ten years.

However, knowing the problem that we have, has taken a large weight off my shoulders. Regardless of what anyone thinks, I think that we are going to make it and be okay. I have already put into place some of the ideas that the angriesout website that Mulan suggested above. And amazingly, they have worked. I set some limits and began to allow my H to suffer the consequences of his behavior. For example, in the case of the mammogram appointment, H didn't go. I was pretty angry. In the past I would have either given him a guilt trip, demanded that he cared, or just argued with hi. This time, my response was that I was very hurt that he wouldn't be going and i left it at that. H for the first time EVER, phoned me 7 times the next day to find out how I was. The he emailed me to see what the results were since he worked. I didn't return any of his phone calls, but I wrote him and email back saying that. I was angry at his response to going. I wrote:


I am extremely hurt by you not coming. I was scared and needed your support. When I invited you, your response was not caring. Regardless of what you needed to do, I would have liked a yes, I will come. When you were worried about how to get off work first, it sends the message that you are more worried about work and its problems than my feelings and me. You are right, the argument got off track. I would have been more willing to listen to your problems if I knew they were for the right reasons and not complaining about the inconvenience I made you. I get frustrate when things are not going well. When I lose you to anger and yelling, I feel more helpless. In the past, I have played a victim. I now will be letting you know how I feel about your choices. You will have to own the decisions that you make. You have made the decision to not join me, whether I pushed you that way or you decided it ,that was your final decision. This hurt me. What you do now about it is your choice. You can reach me after 1’O’clock on my cell


H's response was that he showed up at school the next day to see what kind of help we needed and to check on our son. Then he tried to apologize later. He also indicated when i said that I don't feel close to him:

"You will feel more close, as we get better at this."

I know that it doesn't sound like progress in the way I wrote it, but major things happened in this situation. First, H admitted that he hurt me and tried to apologize the best way that he could. Secondly, H recognized that his choices affected me. Third, H indicated that "I" would feel better as we work to solve this. This is the first time EVER that he has indicated that he has hope for us. He also was able to get close to me after this whole occurrence. Holding me in his arms after a fight- wow a first! So Although we have a long way to go, finding out our problem has been the best thing for us.

Piojito, my concern is now for you, you seem so dismal, "Sis2's troubles will soon be over. She always was the smart one of the three."- Please tell me you don't think that she is smart because she will now be over her problems. That is not the way to relieve that problems. You are only the victim until you break the cycle. If you can be strong enough to break the cycle, it will stop at your generation. It will stop you from feeling lost and it will empower you. I stopped the cycle with my mom by not continuing contact. She still plays the victim, but it doesn't affect my children or me. Let me know if you need some support, you have been so helpful to me! I feel so enlightened. Which reminds me...

Bob, thanks for the great post, i love when people drop in to help. I understand now. It is like a light bulb finally. My new boundaries are I will not continue to allow myself to be with someone who is unwilling to compromise. If my H decides that he wants to hurt me and not compromise, i will ask him to leave. I will not continue to be hurt by the same problem again. I know this is only one limit, but it is a start. I have read POJA many times and have many questions about it. The lst time that I read it to H, he didn't understand it. The second time, we tried it and he couldn't deal with the compromising- part of the passive -aggressive behavior. This last thing we tried to POJAed, we still haven't agreed on. Do you ever give in a little? or do you keep at it until you both love the idea? I would love to hear a good POJA conversation.

Mulan, did your spouse agree that he had passive aggressive behavior?

Well as I said earlier, I do believe you have a symbiosis that very nearly works and might actually work with a little effort. Positive and negative reinforcement. You may just train that dog of a H of yours to salivate yet. You just needed a different bell.

You can’t be a giver all the time. It isn’t healthy for you and it isn’t healthy for your family. It is okay to get angry sometimes. We all do. Just don’t wear it as a badge of honor.

When you respect yourself more, I am betting he will respect you more too. You carry a lot of baggage. So do I. It is important to not make your spouse into your personal bellhop.

I have distanced myself from my family. I have done that to try to break the cycle and have been fairly successful. My WW sees that as me being an uncaring person. Far from the truth. But even to this day I can see it is painful for my Mother to be around any of us. She mostly avoids us.

Don’t worry about me. I’m largely fine. I killed my mother’s P/A behavior years ago. She used to tell me to eat all my food because there were children starving in India. I lived with that for years. One day I simply responded “name three”. Never heard it again. More seriously, if she ever asked me to do something and I didn’t immediately do it, she would get indignant and say “fine, I’ll just do it myself!”. I lived with that for years too. One day I simply responded “go right ahead”. Put an end to that.

So even with an entrenched P/A person, you can alter their behavior with your own responses.

Okay so you two are never going to be the healthiest couple on the planet. But can you learn to coexist happily? Maybe. But don’t go trying to change your H. He will be who he will be. All you can change is how you react to it. You have already seen some positive benefit. Just don’t be goin’ and gettin’ the big head or nuthin.

cfc,

A little more time now. First, my family is WAY more screwed up than your family. My sisters always agreed I was the more normal of our bunch. But while they each had their escape routes, I was too young and had to endure an abusive father and, in her P/A way, mother too. No matter what she did or accomplished, it was never good enough for her mother. Fortunately we three were overachievers. Compared to our cousins, we looked pretty good.

What I find I have to be careful about is not to repeat my mother's behavior withoour kids. It isn't because I am borderline P/A - it is just that I learned a certain way to treat kids and it is hard to avoid. So I find that I have to stop myself at times and sit and discuss with the girls why it is important not to drink the Clorox bleach instead of just yelling at them for doing it, for example. Of course my grandmother would have simply told me "Go ahead a drink it! You'll learn your lesson!". So I have a lot of unlearning to do.

But let's focus on the real issue here. Next time your H wants to go out to the bar with the guys (lest we forget your thread title), how will you behave toward that?

I don't see a major step change in your future. What I see is minor adjustments for both of you. At the end of the day, for all his faults, I think your H is good for you in many ways. If he were "normal", you would be long since divorced.

But you do need clear boundaries. If he is going to a bar where there is the slightest possibility of indiscretion, you might put your foot down there. You aren't the housemaid. He does have some responsibility to you. I do have a (amazon woman) housemaid. Come to think of it, she is a lot less trouble than WW.

What you really need is POJA. Okay so H won't sit down and do that right now. I think you can steer him in that direction. What is different in this thread is you. Reading your first post and comparing it to the last post, you are different (in a good way).

P, I responded to you last night, but somehow it didn't post. things have been really busy around here.

anyways, "If he were "normal", you would be long since divorced." - why do you say that? I would be happy not being the victim. i definately do not feel the need for that in my life. Since i have stood up to H things have been great!. I feel this big weight lifted off. Before, I had no idea that I was acting like that. Knowing is half the problem. Now that I know, I can work on fixing it. That part is much easier when my H is cooperative. He seems to like that i am aware of myself now.

My new boundaries have had to come into pay because he wants to go out with a friend,, now he is saying to Ruby Tuesdays and not bar hopping. Yeah for me!

Now we need to work on POJA in all matters. What if you are incompatible and can;t agree? Is it okay to give in a little or not?

Got to go H is coming to bed to watch a movie with me.

Good night!