What b0b said.
Mulan

b0b,

What a great example of boundaries vs demands. I have found success in my marriage with the very same sort of boundaries that define what I'll do to protect myself, rather than what I'll do to control my husband. I am not about limmiting/policing someone's freedom, but I won't sacrifice my safety if they aren't able to protect themselves or me...from their risky choices.

Well cfc, I don't see much in the way of hope. You can either learn to like the situation or get out of it. We all can. In your case, there is a much greater dynamic involved.

Since you asked, I will try to explain to an extent. My mother was quite the victim all her life. Noble is a word many would ascribe to her. But she had three children who needed her. My sisters were a fair vit older than me. For that reason I have always believed I was a forgotten trip to the drugstore.

Sis1 get pregnant at 16 and married an abuser. She kept hanging new pictures on the wall to cover the fresh holes where hubby swung at her and missed. She eventually ot out of that but her life has always been a mess. Her four kids all have major problems and will never have a "normal" life or marriage. Oldest DD of hers repeated her story. She got divorced when her H was in prison.

Sis2 is living on nothing but dextrose IV's. Result of anorexia, bulemia and a life of prescription drugs. She was a serial cheater as well. Sometimes she would do it just to get the prescriptions. She cannot eat food.

I was too young to "escape". My mother's victimage forced me to be the ultimate latch key kid. She would come home from school every two weeks and take me to the store so I load up on frozen TV dinners. Then she would head off back to school sacrificing for her family. I stayed by myself while she was away. I am an expert on TV dinners. I also know exactly when, as much as they would like to deny it, Swanson stopped putting the crust on the BOTTOM of the chicken pot pies. Bottom crust was the BEST crust. I have never respected Swanson since.

My sisters have always told me I was the least damaged of the three. I'm not so sure it is true. I do take responsibility for who I am however. That is something I took from the experience.

If my mother had been discovered treating me the way she did in 2007, she would go to jail. No joke. I don't mind. It was just a part of my life. Nothing I could do about it.

Sis2's troubles will soon be over. She always was the smart one of the three.

The point is I don't believe we were victims of my mom's victimage. I believe we were extensions of it. If she could show how she had to make her children suffer, it would make people "understand" how much she was suffering herself. Kind of like " oh poor me - look what they made me do to my children!" if you understand what I am getting at.

Piojito, I am so sad for you. It must be hard to deal with the continuation of the victim role. I am too the youngest of 4. Each of my sisters has developed some type of negative response to our childhood. My oldest cannot socialize and has difficulty maintaining relationships with anyone-even me. She is on extensive medication. My second sister lives in a self- absorbed world of despair constantly playing the victim role in everything. Her last victim role with my father in I played out in a series of whoa is me you didn't purchase us enough presents for Christmas- ironically the same Christmas of H's A. Anywho. The next oldest sister of mine is like myself constantly trying to fix others problems. I have, by watching each and everyone make decisions, manage to escape the bulk of the problems. I really think that my H's passive aggressive behavior coupled with my willingness to love him for who he has become, it the real problem. My enabling behavior has enabled me to feel cared for over the past ten years.

However, knowing the problem that we have, has taken a large weight off my shoulders. Regardless of what anyone thinks, I think that we are going to make it and be okay. I have already put into place some of the ideas that the angriesout website that Mulan suggested above. And amazingly, they have worked. I set some limits and began to allow my H to suffer the consequences of his behavior. For example, in the case of the mammogram appointment, H didn't go. I was pretty angry. In the past I would have either given him a guilt trip, demanded that he cared, or just argued with hi. This time, my response was that I was very hurt that he wouldn't be going and i left it at that. H for the first time EVER, phoned me 7 times the next day to find out how I was. The he emailed me to see what the results were since he worked. I didn't return any of his phone calls, but I wrote him and email back saying that. I was angry at his response to going. I wrote:


I am extremely hurt by you not coming. I was scared and needed your support. When I invited you, your response was not caring. Regardless of what you needed to do, I would have liked a yes, I will come. When you were worried about how to get off work first, it sends the message that you are more worried about work and its problems than my feelings and me. You are right, the argument got off track. I would have been more willing to listen to your problems if I knew they were for the right reasons and not complaining about the inconvenience I made you. I get frustrate when things are not going well. When I lose you to anger and yelling, I feel more helpless. In the past, I have played a victim. I now will be letting you know how I feel about your choices. You will have to own the decisions that you make. You have made the decision to not join me, whether I pushed you that way or you decided it ,that was your final decision. This hurt me. What you do now about it is your choice. You can reach me after 1’O’clock on my cell


H's response was that he showed up at school the next day to see what kind of help we needed and to check on our son. Then he tried to apologize later. He also indicated when i said that I don't feel close to him:

"You will feel more close, as we get better at this."

I know that it doesn't sound like progress in the way I wrote it, but major things happened in this situation. First, H admitted that he hurt me and tried to apologize the best way that he could. Secondly, H recognized that his choices affected me. Third, H indicated that "I" would feel better as we work to solve this. This is the first time EVER that he has indicated that he has hope for us. He also was able to get close to me after this whole occurrence. Holding me in his arms after a fight- wow a first! So Although we have a long way to go, finding out our problem has been the best thing for us.

Piojito, my concern is now for you, you seem so dismal, "Sis2's troubles will soon be over. She always was the smart one of the three."- Please tell me you don't think that she is smart because she will now be over her problems. That is not the way to relieve that problems. You are only the victim until you break the cycle. If you can be strong enough to break the cycle, it will stop at your generation. It will stop you from feeling lost and it will empower you. I stopped the cycle with my mom by not continuing contact. She still plays the victim, but it doesn't affect my children or me. Let me know if you need some support, you have been so helpful to me! I feel so enlightened. Which reminds me...

Bob, thanks for the great post, i love when people drop in to help. I understand now. It is like a light bulb finally. My new boundaries are I will not continue to allow myself to be with someone who is unwilling to compromise. If my H decides that he wants to hurt me and not compromise, i will ask him to leave. I will not continue to be hurt by the same problem again. I know this is only one limit, but it is a start. I have read POJA many times and have many questions about it. The lst time that I read it to H, he didn't understand it. The second time, we tried it and he couldn't deal with the compromising- part of the passive -aggressive behavior. This last thing we tried to POJAed, we still haven't agreed on. Do you ever give in a little? or do you keep at it until you both love the idea? I would love to hear a good POJA conversation.

Mulan, did your spouse agree that he had passive aggressive behavior?

Well as I said earlier, I do believe you have a symbiosis that very nearly works and might actually work with a little effort. Positive and negative reinforcement. You may just train that dog of a H of yours to salivate yet. You just needed a different bell.

You can’t be a giver all the time. It isn’t healthy for you and it isn’t healthy for your family. It is okay to get angry sometimes. We all do. Just don’t wear it as a badge of honor.

When you respect yourself more, I am betting he will respect you more too. You carry a lot of baggage. So do I. It is important to not make your spouse into your personal bellhop.

I have distanced myself from my family. I have done that to try to break the cycle and have been fairly successful. My WW sees that as me being an uncaring person. Far from the truth. But even to this day I can see it is painful for my Mother to be around any of us. She mostly avoids us.

Don’t worry about me. I’m largely fine. I killed my mother’s P/A behavior years ago. She used to tell me to eat all my food because there were children starving in India. I lived with that for years. One day I simply responded “name three”. Never heard it again. More seriously, if she ever asked me to do something and I didn’t immediately do it, she would get indignant and say “fine, I’ll just do it myself!”. I lived with that for years too. One day I simply responded “go right ahead”. Put an end to that.

So even with an entrenched P/A person, you can alter their behavior with your own responses.

Okay so you two are never going to be the healthiest couple on the planet. But can you learn to coexist happily? Maybe. But don’t go trying to change your H. He will be who he will be. All you can change is how you react to it. You have already seen some positive benefit. Just don’t be goin’ and gettin’ the big head or nuthin.

cfc,

A little more time now. First, my family is WAY more screwed up than your family. My sisters always agreed I was the more normal of our bunch. But while they each had their escape routes, I was too young and had to endure an abusive father and, in her P/A way, mother too. No matter what she did or accomplished, it was never good enough for her mother. Fortunately we three were overachievers. Compared to our cousins, we looked pretty good.

What I find I have to be careful about is not to repeat my mother's behavior withoour kids. It isn't because I am borderline P/A - it is just that I learned a certain way to treat kids and it is hard to avoid. So I find that I have to stop myself at times and sit and discuss with the girls why it is important not to drink the Clorox bleach instead of just yelling at them for doing it, for example. Of course my grandmother would have simply told me "Go ahead a drink it! You'll learn your lesson!". So I have a lot of unlearning to do.

But let's focus on the real issue here. Next time your H wants to go out to the bar with the guys (lest we forget your thread title), how will you behave toward that?

I don't see a major step change in your future. What I see is minor adjustments for both of you. At the end of the day, for all his faults, I think your H is good for you in many ways. If he were "normal", you would be long since divorced.

But you do need clear boundaries. If he is going to a bar where there is the slightest possibility of indiscretion, you might put your foot down there. You aren't the housemaid. He does have some responsibility to you. I do have a (amazon woman) housemaid. Come to think of it, she is a lot less trouble than WW.

What you really need is POJA. Okay so H won't sit down and do that right now. I think you can steer him in that direction. What is different in this thread is you. Reading your first post and comparing it to the last post, you are different (in a good way).

P, I responded to you last night, but somehow it didn't post. things have been really busy around here.

anyways, "If he were "normal", you would be long since divorced." - why do you say that? I would be happy not being the victim. i definately do not feel the need for that in my life. Since i have stood up to H things have been great!. I feel this big weight lifted off. Before, I had no idea that I was acting like that. Knowing is half the problem. Now that I know, I can work on fixing it. That part is much easier when my H is cooperative. He seems to like that i am aware of myself now.

My new boundaries have had to come into pay because he wants to go out with a friend,, now he is saying to Ruby Tuesdays and not bar hopping. Yeah for me!

Now we need to work on POJA in all matters. What if you are incompatible and can;t agree? Is it okay to give in a little or not?

Got to go H is coming to bed to watch a movie with me.

Good night!