WW is incredibly unhappy with current job and has been looking for a new one for the last few months now. Because of the industry she's in, it would require moving to a different city or even different state. Because she has always made more money than I, I've always left my job, come with her to that new place and found a new job, which inevitably pays much less than hers.

Last night she asked me if I didn't want her to find a new job because I'm happy with my current job. I assured her that I did want her to find a new job because she was so unhappy at her workplace. Plus, that's where she met the OM and it would be good to get away from the reminders.

But then she asked 'what if I'm not worth following?' and added that 'I don't want to ruin your life any further' by forcing me to leave the job I enjoy. I told her I didn't really know how to respond to that, which was the truth. She wanted to know if I would be upset with that or if I could deal with it. I told her I would just have to deal with it.

I know that her most important goal right now is finding a new job. I suspect that she just wants to leave everything behind (including me) because trying to fix it all is too overwhelming and painful for her. I'm not sure if maybe subconsciously she's trying to rationalize or make herself feel better by saying 'It will be better for you if I just leave'

I'm currently in Plan A so I tried hard (and I think succeeded) to avoid LBs, especially DJs. But Honesty and Openness is one of her top ENs and by not really answering her questions, I don't think I'm meeting it well. I could sure use some advice on what to do or say in this situation.

B Guy,

Women often communicate by asking hypothetical questions, which also have a basis in reality. What they are asking on the surface appears to be hypothetical, but the question is truly rooted in reality. So you are wise to worry about her thoughts behind these questions.

The problem is that you seem to be worried in the wrong direction. The likelihood is when a woman asks a pseudo-hypothetical negative question about herself, it shows fear that the question has a true basis, and should be answered in the positive.

For example, "If I wore these jeans out, and you didn't know me and saw me walking down the street, don't you think you would think my butt looked too fat?"

The underlying meaning here is, "I FEAR MY BUTT LOOKS TOO FAT IN THESE JEANS", and she wants reassurance from you that she is incorrect despite her fears.

So when she asked, "What if I'm not worth following?", the fear here is that she is not worthy. I wonder if there is recent contact with her OM, or if she has remaining guilt, or if she is just entering an awareness phase of her own misdeeds. It might be that she is awakening to what she has done, and her own self-esteem is taking some big hits.

The statement "I don't want to ruin your life any further" was actually a inquiry, not a statement. This is an indirect opening, used by women more often than men (although men do use this conversational tactic). The inquiry was to you, and she was asking you for reassurance that she has NOT ruined your entire life, and that you DO still want her in your life despite her transgressions against her.

She has many fears. This conversation with her was very indirect on her part, because she fears that what she has done has not yet been forgiven by you, and I believe she is seeing that she needs to change jobs to make things safer for your marriage. However, I also think she sees that changing jobs will mean another hit to your career, and it would be my educated guess that she does not think you will ride out both the affair and the job setback as well, and be able to forgive BOTH at the same time.

You two need to talk more directly about her fears. Try to draw her out on these, because talking about her fears will create more intimacy between the two of you. You could open the conversation by talking about perhaps a fear you have with regard to her changing jobs, and ask her about her own fears - and ask about specifically the fears she has regarding your taking "two hits at the same time - the job change and the affair", and see what she says about her fears on that topic. It might be very interesting. She may not have this insight yet, at least in those specific terms.

At least, that is what my educated guess and analysis would be.

If openness if one of her top ENs, you might just hit one out of the park.

SB

Excellent post, Schoolbus!!! I can't think of anything to add, but that post really spoke to me!

JinGA

Thank you for your lengthy reply schoolbus. It certainly brought a different perspective.

Some evidence that might go against that theory is (1) she was looking for a new job prior to my discovery of the affair (without informing me) and (2) she recently revealed that one reason she hates work is because 'everyone there thinks I'm a ******' She says now that the OM is gone from the workplace, she has no friends there.

I think that if she really cared about 'making things safer for our marriage' she wouldn't be trying to contact OM still. (just discovered in today's phone bill that an eight-minute message was left on 7/25)

Thank you for the idea of engaging her in honest conversation about her/my fears. What do I have to lose? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It still seems like she is thinking only of herself. Very much a WS' attitude. So she has a ways to go.

In such a case, is may be wise to make the move based on what is best for you and your family.

Not a good idea to let the WS' POV affect the decision because the WS is very wishy washy and you will get irriated when she blames you for her decision.

Test this out on a smaller scale.

Ex:

Ask her where she wants to go to dinner, which movie she wants to see or something where she has to make a choice. If graciously she picks one and it's ok, go with it. If she picks one and balks after you agree, then you pick and do it whether she likes it or not. See if she makes a fuss....she should lose her right to choose. Does that sound mean? It could if she were normal but if she is still displaying a WS attitude, that's the only way to handle it. Very immature indeed on her part.

JMHO,
L.

If she was looking for a job before d-day without telling you maybe it's because she figured she was guilty and you would kick her to the street???

It's not a bad thing that she has shame for what she did and believes everyone she works with knows, she probably would like to have a clean slate at work to start over with.

But, even if job changes and moving might be a positive thing for your M, you should make sure your ready for all the additional stress of relocating before jumping in. It can put your recovery work on a side burner while you are trying to sell the house, buy the house, find the schools, find new everything. Is your relationship healing enough for the move yet??

FTS

Thank you for your opinion. It gave me a refreshing, different outlook. I don't think she's afraid of me kicking her to the street because she makes the majority of our household income and thus pays the majority of our bills.

But a few things keep me from thinking that she was or is feeling guilty. First, the day after the PA she e-mailed OM that she 'really did not regret what happened.' After that, but before I discovered the A, she wrote her friend (who knew about it all) that she had 'started thinking about moving somewhere on her own and thought the easiest way to do that would be to get a new job in another town, so there would be a significant reason.' A couple weeks after D-Day, I asked her what she regretted and cheating on me was not in the list. She instead said she regretted getting married so young.

I don't think she believes anyone at work knows. It was an egotistical male co-worker that told her 'Everyone here thinks you're a ****** anyway.' She took a management position a year ago and has been unhappy in the job since then.

First, we have no kids, so that makes things a lot simpler. Second, we don't own a house, we're renting month-to-month, so that also makes things simpler.

But I would be very concerned if we had to make a decision today because she hasn't agreed to NC and isn't in R. And her comments that maybe I shouldn't go with her are troubling.

When she gets a job offer in another town, I worry that she will move there without me and that separation will make R impossible. Or would that separation force the beginning of Plan B? Has anyone else faced a situation like this?

My WW also told me various versions of the "I don't want you to have to leave your job, if I find a job elsewhere."

This was her conflict avoidance way of saying I'm leaving you. At the time I did not know there was an A. But basically, she looked for a job anywhere, as long as it wasn't near where we were. "Miraculously", she found a job in OM's city.

So you sitch may be different because she is not going somewhere to be with the OM, but based on what you've said, she is planning on leaving you and starting over. When she says you'd be better off staying where you're at, she is just telling you she doesn't want you to come with her.

IME, its practically immpossible to plan A once they leave, so yeah you eventually end up with plan B. But plan B is lot more effective if you do it on your terms.

If I had it to do over, I would not have let my WW sell me this song and dance. I would either say "nonsense Honey, where ever you go, I'm going, I'm positive I'll find a job I like just as much" or "Heck no, I'm not leaving my job. You can quit yours and find one around here if you hate yours so much."

Obviously, there are more tactful ways to say this but you get the point. She'll most likely refuse both optons. In which case, you'll know she is trying to leave town on you. If that's the case, I'd beat her to the punch with a pre-emptive plan B. Assuming you've had some time to do a plan A.

In my case, the WW was gone before I even knew about the A.

Just my 2 cents

I took WW out to lunch today and the topic came up again. I told her that I did think she was worth following and that I would want to do so. She then asked me 'But what if I don't want you to come with me?' and 'Maybe I just want to be by myself so I can figure things out on my own without this external pressure.' She told me that she had been thinking about moving out on her own for a long time prior to the A but didn't want to tell me because she was too worried about hurting my feelings and worried how I would provide for myself (since she's the breadwinner). She said she doesn't want me to hate her, and mentioned how when her Dad left her Mom the two of them hated each other for life.

She also said that even if she couldn't find a new job in another city, she might want to move out and be on her own anyway. I told her it was her choice if she wanted to do that and I would not help or assist her in doing so.

She said I probably think she's just trying to get together with OM and it's not like that because she knows that will never happen. When I asked her 'what if he calls you and says let's get together to talk' she said she would but nothing would happen. When I told her that's exactly how it happened last time, she said it wouldn't this time. When I asked why it couldn't happen again, she didn't really have an answer.

It seems like she's just trying to make me feel good about her leaving and/or get my permission, that way she can't be blamed for it. She could tell herself and everyone else 'It was a mutual agreement.' It also seems a little like cake-eating, in that she wants to still be friends with me after she leaves me. If you think I'm misreading, please let me know.

Right now there are no job offers on the table, so there isn't an imminent threat of her leaving. But what do I do if she does leave? Do I go to Plan B at that point? Give her a PBL and go dark?

BHH,

Your wife is talking fogspeak, the language of a WW still in contact with OM.

"Maybe I just want to be by myself so I can figure things out on my own..."
Translation

"I want to be free to carry out my A with OM"

If they get together to talk "Nothing woulf happen".

" I can't wait till I can get some alone time with OM so we can pick up right where we left off"

I don't know how long you've been in A, when was dday? IMO, you fight to keep her there, tell her no you want to work on your M, you love her .....

But, if you feel that you've done a good Plan A, then if she leaves, go to Plan B, don't be half a$$ about it, go very dark.

She thinks she's single and wants to behave as such.

wayward fog,

Plan A as much as you can, be ready for plan b, and be glad that you don't have any children that she is damaging.

Best wishes

FTS

D-day was 6/8 and last contact from OM to WW was 6/15. But WW has been trying to contact OM sporadically since with no apologies. See the thread Affair over for OM but not for WS for more info on that.

I LB'd heavily on 6/27 (prior to my knowledge of LBs, Plan A, etc.) and didn't truly start Plan A until maybe July 1. When I tell her that I'm going to do my best to meet her ENs, she says the damage is done and it may be too late.

I know it's way too early for Plan B right now. But I could use some advice on specifics for when that time comes. Typically it seems like the PBL asks the WS to leave the home until the requirements are met for R. But if WW leaves of her own accord, is a letter still involved? Do I give it to her before/after she leaves? Or do I tell her beforehand that if she goes I plan on NC with her? Or does that tip my hand?

My apologies for not having a signature. I'm afraid my WW will find my posts here as she did at a different site, and then I would lose this as a resource.

Let me refer you to Bugs.

She's got 2 threads on this board. One for Plan A. She did an awesome Plan A even after her H left.

She is now in Plan B Darkness has Decended, and she's doing great. Read both of these. They will be very helpful.

You can tell her that if she goes, you will have NC with her. Give her the PBL after she leaves.

She's in withdrawal, most likely. I do think there is shame there, and from what you said about how others at her work feel about her, she does care what the OM said about her. I wonder if she worries that he told other people at work about what happened between them, and she has some paranoia about the idea that other people there are talking behind her back.

They probably are. It's usually in the grapevine when this stuff goes on.

Her talk about feeling this way before d-day and the affair is fog-babble. Don't listen to her, and keep up Plan A. Somewhere they all find the same script and read off of it.

Her attempts to detach from you are also typical. But she's still at home - take advantage of it while she's there, and Plan A as much as you can.

Don't engage her in any talk of separation - tell her you talk about rebuilding marriages, not divorcing, and that you know that this can be a relationship worth having. It was once, and can be again, only better - because the tools are out there and waiting to be used.

Have you done the emotional needs questionnaire?

SB

I tend to agree. Sometimes it seems to lift but lately it seems the fog has set back in. I think it helps her keep from feeling so awful. It's hard for me to accept that such an insightful and intelligent woman could say some of the ridiculous things she's said. Withdrawal and the fog are powerful, indeed!

Agreed. I'm trying my darndest. First with the no LBs and second with the meeting of ENs. I was subconsciously doing a Plan A for a while but after not seeing any effort from her, got quite upset. Now I recognize that I should not expect any of my ENs to be met in Plan A. That realization helps me from committing LBs. Although I'm surprised at how hard Plan A can be (can't imagine how hard B must be). Usually the hardest part is figuring out how to answer fog questions.

Thanks for this tip especially. It's specifics like this that I'll need to make it through Plan A.

Thankfully, she did do this at my request. It was surprising and useful. I'm trying to refer to it daily to make sure I'm meeting her EN's, especially the top five. Honesty and openness is the toughest one because, let's face it, Plan A is partly about hiding feelings of anger, pain and hurt.

Yes, Plan A, especially at the beginning totally feels like a facade. You are holding back on most of your emotions, but with time it becomes more natural.

I remember feeling, "Yeah, everything's just hunky dorey as long as I don't bring up how you have destroyed me, our children, and our M." It's natural to think it, just reframe from saying it right now.

Know that there will be a time,later on, after she comes out of the fog that you will be able to express those things to her, but not now and not from a place of anger.

It took me a while to find Bugs because her Username is actually Bugsmom, but I have spent the last X days reading her lengthy Plan A thread and just got caught up on her Plan B thread. Wow, just wow.

I see how well she did Plan A while her husband was moved out. However, my WW is looking at taking a job that is more than 100 miles away. I don't think I could meet her needs of Affection and Recreational Companionship (2 of her Top 5) if I don't go with her. So it looks like it would force me into Plan B.

This seems like an 'exit affair' to me. Have any BH here recovered their M from such a situation? FWW posts are certainly encouraged also.

I agree, if she leaves, go into a very dark Plan B.

WW now has interest from two separate employers that are both quite far away (one in a different state). She asked me if I was worried and I told her I was happy because I know she has wanted to leave her job for a while now. Knowing that Honesty and Openness is one of her Top 5 ENs, I told her I am always a little worried when we move about finding a new job for myself. She said 'so it makes even more sense' for her to go on her own and not 'make me' come with her.

If I go into Plan B after she moves away, does that mean I skip Exposure? Both jobs are far away from OM, so I can't really tell family that she left to be with OM. Won't I just look like a complete @$$ to everyone if I go dark at that point? But if I tell family members what really happened, won't she just say that I'm being vengeful by bringing up the past unnecessarily?

BGuy,

Yes, I've experienced the same situation.

Everything your WW has said, my WW said similar things. My WW is very intelligent, beautiful and successful person. In Dec '04, she told me she hated her job and wanted to look for another one. I said great. After 3 months of looking she said I've narrowed it down 2 jobs, both a thousand miles away. She did not even look for one near where we lived. I said, well, I'm more than willing to move with you. In Mar '04 I got the ILYBNILWY speech. A week later I got, I've accepted that job, but there's no need for you to come with me. This company is opening an office where we live and I'll be back in 3 months. Which got extended to 4 months. In July '05 I found her love letters from OM. Two years later and she still isn't back home and our M is nowhere.

Here's what I learned. My WW was extremely detached from me, resented the he** out of me and basically hated my guts. I was not the best husband in the world, but I wasn't that bad. My WW felt that way for years and never said it. There were no signs that she felt this way. Yet, even though she hated my guts, she doesn't want to hurt my feelings. She is worried about whether I'll be okay. This was very confusing to me. I plan A'd myself to no end. I kept thinking I can fix this.

Its probably not that simple. She needs to fix some things about herself and she's terrified about doing it. She's in fight or flight mode now and she's going to run.

The correct plan, is to Plan A for now. Resist any separation under any terms. I tried for years to plan A with us being separated, and while it does help, it doesn't have a real strong effect. The 15 hours together a week, being together every day is essential.

You can't stop her from leaving, so establish the no separation as your boundary. If she breaks that boundary go to plan B. Get yourself ready for plan B. Squirrel away some money, start looking for second jobs, etc.

Finally, if you want to know more. Tell me more about your M and your WW prior to d-day. Does your WW have any friends she has had for many years? What's her family like? Is she close to them? Did everything in your M seem okay prior to d-day. Does your WW like you to have the things you want, but seems frugal about buying things for herself. Has your WW ever been to IC? Have you been spending less and less time together over the years? How did you treat your WW? AO's, DJ's, etc,? Does she procrastinate on some things? Did she ever lie to you before? Maybe not big things, but little things?

My wife's career is in the newspaper industry and there's only so many newspapers (1 per large area, generally) so when she advances her career it has always meant (and still does) that we have to move away from our current location.

On DDay, my WW said a lot of stuff like that, re-writing history. But I don't know how much to believe, because a lot of it was clearly fog-talk. When I told her 'I wish you would've told me all this a long time ago' she said she just didn't want to hurt me. Obviously, cheating on me has hurt me way, way, way worse. She continues to express concern over my future and said she doesn't want me to hate her if we break up.

I know she has issues to deal with (parents divorced young, mother abandoned her, mid-life crisis) and she said she knows she's screwed up because of all that. But she has refused to see an IC or MC up to now because 'what could they tell me I don't already know?' My IC is 'stuck' with me right now and asked her to come in and talk so he could get her side of the story and get 'unstuck'. She has (very reluctantly) agreed to do so. But I worry she'll give the old 'I tried counseling and it didn't work' line.

I'm definitely getting the picture that I cannot successfuly Plan A if she moves away.

Thanks for these tips. Even though I know I will need to go to Plan B, I don't know the specifics of how to do so. How do I communicate to her that I don't want her to leave me behind w/o it being a Selfish Demand or Ultimatum?

WW has one longtime best friend from gradeschool. BFF actually hooked us up in high school. Unfortunately, WW confided in BFF during EA and BFF supported her by encouraging it and disparaging me. BFF's H is also now poisoned against me (I don't think he knows the full truth of the situation). They are our closest mutual friends and I don't know what to do about that situation either. Right now my M takes priority, so I'm trying to concentrate solely on that. But WW hasn't communicated much with BFF in a while, either.

WW is not particularly close with her family, especially because we have moved so far away from their home. They never come and visit but always expect us to. WW's Father didn't even call or send a card on her 30th Birthday. She gets occasional, lengthy e-mails from her sisters, but she is not in regular contact with them. None of her family members know what's going on. They haven't heard from her in months but that's just typical for them.

Not everything but I was completely blindsided when I discovered the infidelity.

Actually, it's more of the opposite. When an unexpected money issue would arise (car repairs, etc.) she would usually say 'Oh, I guess I have to pay for it, huh?!' She often felt like I was freeloading off her. She wanted to go on nice vacations and I couldn't afford to assist, so she would pay for most of it and then resent me for it.

She had a bad experience with IC at young age after parents divorced, which is why she refuses to see one nowadays.

Actually, much more. We had a long-distance relationship all during college, so we didn't see each other that much. After we moved in together, our newspaper shifts were in opposition, so we rarely saw each other during the week. When we moved here it was so she could get normal hours and we could be together more often.

That depends on who you ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I always thought I treated her very well. I never criticized her and always supported every choice she made. When she gained weight, I always told her she was pretty. (Now that she's lost weight she thinks I just like her for her looks) I've never told her that she did anything wrong, but she feels like I've been silently judging her (I am a Christian and she mostly isn't)

Does never doing something count as procrastinating? She hasn't opened the boxes of the exercise equipment she bought a couple of years ago. She has DVD box sets she hasn't opened. She balances her checkbook once every 7+ months. She'll leave her mail pile up for months.

I don't think so, but I don't know anymore. She says she didn't lie to me about seeing OM secretly, it's just that I never asked her where she was. I trusted her implicitly.

BGuy,

Ok, I get the part about the newspaper job.

I know in my sitch I found this all very perplexing. My WW was cheating on me, but didn't want to hurt me??? My WW said she had no intention of being with OM, yet wouldn't end contact??? I was such a bad husband, but she wanted to make sure I was okay and still loved me??? She wanted to leave me, but still wanted to be friends???

Okay, yes this may be fog, yes it may be cake eating, yes she may be manipulating you. Or, she may have some deep emotional issues that is causing all this. It is tempting to assume the later and then adjust your plan. Delving into what is going with her may increase this temptation. So, I would advise sticking to your plan and set some dates for things.

How do you go about it. Plan A first, and there are tons of posts out here for how long to do that. (I mean if she keeps contacting OM you may have to go to plan B before she leaves) As part of your plan A do not discuss separation. If she still insists on leaving, do not tell her what you are going to do. i.e. don't agree to keep in touch or don't tell you won't speak to her. Others may have better advise, but I wouldn't help her move, etc. Simply tell her you don't agree with the decision. If she still leaves, I would wait a day or two after she is gone and then send her a plan B letter. Anyway, others may have better tips.

As to the other questions. It does sound to me like your WW was having an exit affair. I imagine her expectation was for you to throw her out the minute you found out. But I don't really suscribe too much to exit affair or not. The key message here seems to be "I need to be away from you." Underlying that is usually a high level of resentment.

So, on one hand, maybe you "earned" that resentment and on the other, maybe she "created" that resentment. Most likely its a mix of both. If you "earned" it, then you probably had a lot AO's or DJ's or other LB's or failing to me EN's etc. If she created it, she is most likely a P/A, or a conflict avoider, or a "giver".

I think generally you can sum up P/A, conflict avoider, etc. as a person who is not authentic. They have an inability to be their real self. A bunch of things can cause this, low self esteem, family environment, defense mechanism, etc. Usually you can spot this because it makes it difficult to be successful. However, people who are unauthentic and successful are very hard to spot. The successful ones have become very good at playing a part. They very much want to be liked. However, this is very stressful. The more they hide theirselves the more stressed they become. They become terrified of being found out. The become terrified that if someone really knew them they wouldn't like them. So every few years, they get away from everyone they know. But they really want to make a pleasant exit so that everyone will still like them. They start to resent you because you are starting to find out who they really are.

I fear your WW may be like this. But this is a very tough nut to crack. Its almost impossible for you to be an amateur therpist for them. If they see IC, it can take years for the therapists to spot this, and usually ones the therpists does, they say they hate the therpist and quit going.

I don't know if any of this sounds off the mark or not. If so, I can give some advice on what has helped for me.

This is basically what I would say:

I am going to follow you just like always if you get another job. I made a commitment to love you for better or for worse, and I'm sticking to that commitment. I want to stick you to that commitment as well. Of course I can't control what you do, but know right now that you are either my wife or nothing to me and people will know the TRUTH of what happened. I will not be agreeable to any separation, as I see it as an excuse to act like you are single and see other people. Of course I am hurting right now, but you haven't ruined my life. I am sure that we can rebuild our relationship and make it better than it ever was before. This is where I stand, and it will not change.

Then you don't have to have these conversations every other day.

Those are all practically verbatim from my WW. It's heartening to know that others have been in my shoes before me. I just wish no one else would have to be in them afterwards.

Thanks for these specifics. Knowing these kind of things puts my mind more at ease because I'm more prepared for the inevitable.

Yes, it's a mix of both. I recognize that I wasn't meeting her top ENs. I was working quite hard to meet ENs that it turned out were very low on her list. At the same time, she was not communicating her needs to me effectively, and instead assumed I knew and was actively choosing that course. I assure you, though, she is not a "giver," as I am the conflict avoider (didn't think there was a problem with that until now).

Thank you so much for those words. They will be good responses for many of the things WW has been saying. I've been having a hard time stating things like that because I don't want to LB. WW has complained about how I 'lecture' her, so I've been very cautious with what I say and how I say it.

Per Plan A, I do not initiate conversations about the M, but I always try to engage if WW initiates. But sometimes her remarks seem passing in nature, so I'm not sure if I should reply or just let them wash over me.

WW has refused to see IC or MC since D-Day (6/8/07) citing numerous reasons/excuses (bad childhood experience, doesn't have time, doesn't think insurance covers it, what's the point, what can a counselor tell her she doesn't already know, etc.)

I began seeing an IC and her resistance lessened slightly: 'If you say it's helping you, maybe I'll think about it.' She always wants to know everything I talk about with IC.

After the third/latest session, IC told me he was 'stuck' and didn't know what advice to give. He told me to ask WW if she'd come in and talk with him so he could get the other side of the story and get 'unstuck'. WW reluctantly agreed to do so: 'I guess you can't have another session unless I go in and talk with him.'

Her session with him is today and I'm expecting she'll say she gave it her best shot but it was pointless, ask me 'Are you happy now?' and resolve to not do any more counseling.

I recognize that I cannot force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. What things should I say or not say in response? What should I be prepared for?

Her: It was a waste of time.

You: If you aren't looking for help, I'm sure it will be.

OR

You: It usually takes more than one session to accomplish anything.

OR

You: I'm sorry you feel that way.

You need to stop reacting to your WW's jabs. Lovingly detach from her. If she wants to get a rise out of you or talk divorce or separation, just ignore her. If she wants to engage in a normal conversation with you, indulge her. That way she'll learn how to talk to you. If she disrespects you, you'll ignore her and if she treats you like a person, she'll get something back.

I was happily surprised this evening to discover that WW did NOT think her session with my IC this afternoon was a waste of time. She has already agreed to have another session with him next week. This is despite the fact that IC doesn't accept her insurance company so she has to pay the session price out of pocket. I am very heartened by this change in attitude.

Wow, BHHFSGuy... this is wonderful.

You're W needs IC, and this will hopefully be very helpful.

Bob Pure just updated his toolkit... you should check it out. Lots of fantastic stuff there.

I don't have much else to add that hasn't already been said. Your W wanting to leave is typical. She can't face the pain she has caused. It's a typical conflict-avoidant reaction. It's much easier emotionally to leave and start over alone then it is to stay in the M and work through the pain. I was the same way. My H told me that he was never going to let me go and I was full of horsesh*t. Boy, did that make me angry. Once I got through withdrawl and got on ADs things were much better. H always supported me but also took care of himself, which made me respect him tremendously (he did a great Plan A without knowing it.) Today, he is my hero for not letting me go. Don't let your W go! She is a like a broken crack addict right now, and needs you more than anything.

I'm so happy to hear the counseling was a success. Hopefully this will "unstick" your sessions as well.

Blessings,

KM

Katie_Mae,

Thanks for your words of support and encouragement. I've been reading the stories of various MB members and was curious if you or your DH had a thread. While I was looking at some of your older posts, I found one describing how you had disparaged your DH to some of your friends during the A and had also told others about it.

The reason this is interesting to me is because another issue I'm dealing with (as if I don't have enough!) is that WW originally told her longtime best girl friend (from grade school) about her first lunch with the co-worker that was held secret from me. The BFF told WW that CW probably had feelings for her and/or was in love with her. BFF encouraged WW to try and initiate more meetings with him and not tell me anything. After the EA became a PA, BFF told WW to 'just think of yourself' and not to 'settle' for me. When I discovered this and communicated with BFF (who is a mutual friend of ours from high school and actually got us together in the first place) that I was devastated by the betrayal of someone who called me their friend, she became very angry ... not to me, but vented it to WW, saying that I need to get off my moral high horse and I was completely out of line to expose to OMGF. She also vented to her H about how hurtful I was to her and he is now quite angry with me as well because I've upset a pregant woman (I found out she was pregnant a couple of weeks after discovery of the A).

I have kept this issue on the backburner, since I'm more focused on saving my M than saving my friendship with her. The small amount of advice I've seen on the topic says to simply cut out friends that support the A. But if my goal is R, how can I possibly cut this person out of my life and my WW not?

Do you have any advice on how to handle this situation? BFF's advice to my WW helped lead to the A and I feel like BFF still has a bad influence on WW because she tells WW that 'You have to think of yourself first and foremost and ALWAYS...and then possibly consider how the other might be feeling.'

This is the issue that my IC got stuck on.

This will be a boundry for recovery if you get there.

Her best friend is not a friend to your marriage. She has to go.

Someone who supports an affair is no friend. Do you really need a friend with no integrity, honesty, or character?
Neither does your wife...

Tell BFFH what she told you WW and tell him to keep his eye on her because she will stray as well. Tell him that BFF is no longer a friend of you marriage and WW would probably be a bad influence on his marriage.

BHHFSGuy,

One of my best friends from high school was supportive of me as I was going through the A, although she never approved of what I was doing (she didn't abandon me, would listen to me, tell me to try and work things out with H, didn't approve of OM.) She has since been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and our friendship is somewhat lost now. She is one of the people I apologized to as I went through recovery. She is thrilled H and I worked things out.

Lexxxy is right. You have to wait until you are closer to recovery. However, I also think this friend should be kicked to the curb. She is not a friend to your M AT ALL. I might even suggest beginning to set up boundaries for yourself regarding this friend. Like, if your W brings her around, tell your W that she is not a friend to the M and she is not allowed in your house. Make this about you and the M right now, instead of your W's relationship with her friend. "I'm sorry, she betrayed us and I can't have her in my house, calling my house, she can call you on your cell phone if you want to be friends with someone with such low moral character, etc." Stick up for yourself and your M. Your W will be angry, but she will respect you if you "man up" about it... just my thoughts as a FWW. When my H "manned up" I really listened, because he was typically such a laid back, non-confrontational kind of guy. While it ruined the fantasy for me (which made me angry) it also made me want to follow him and listen to him.

What have you said to your W about her friend so far? Have you said anything? Does she come around your house?

KM

also, my DH doesn't have a thread. I tried to lead him here but he thought it was too "Christian."

BFF and H live hundreds of miles away, and neither have visited in more than a year due to financial strain. I don't have to worry about any friends coming over because neither WW nor I have friends where we live, just friendly co-workers...

But she has asked about coming to visit us in Sept. or Oct., so it's something I have to figure out. As to not allowing her in my house, the problem there is that WW pays the rent for our place, so I think she'd not only be angry that I'd say that, but also find it ridiculous. And one of WW complaints about our M prior to A is that she felt like I was freeloading off her (I only make 30K/year).

I've told WW that I feel like BFF stabbed me in the back and unless BFF tells me she is sorry that I don't see how I could still be friends with her. Because she got so angry the last time I wrote her about it, I have simply avoided writing to her about that issue. Instead I have kept to non-controversial topics like what WW and I are doing for the weekend, what movies we've seen. Since she's pregnant, it seems like if I say anything slightly 'mean' to her, I'm a giant @$$.

After I communicated with BFF that I knew her involvement, she was very non-communicative with WW. She's told WW that she's just too busy and tired from being pregnant but also admitted that she was a little scared to do so because I knew so much. She has continually asked WW if I've told other people (which I haven't yet). She also told WW that she wants to still remain friends with me even if WW and I divorce ... but she doesn't think it's the right time to tell me that.

Believe me, I've thought about it! After I found out that H was angry at me, I wanted to call him up and set him straight because I knew he had a skewed version of the story where I was a villainous monster and his W was a helpful saint.

But as most of us BSs know, those unfamiliar with infidelity think it can never happen to them and generally completely ignore advice from those who've experienced it. And a husband is always going to be protective of his W, especially a pregnant one, so I'm pretty sure it would be pretty pointless to try and set him straight.

I think it would also look vengeful to all involved and wouldn't help getting WW to R. Of course, they haven't had much communication in the last couple of weeks and BFF has been worried by my WW's silence to her. BFF is now saying things like 'I don't want to say too many bad things about BHHFSGuy in case you guys get back together' and 'I don't want to look like BHHFSGuy's worst enemy'

If she does start back in with convincing my WW to leave me, I think I'll have no choice but to confront both BFF and BFFH and explain to them that I'm trying to save my marriage and at least one of them is an enemy of that effort.

No way... it IS your house. You live there. It's yours.

I make more $ than my husband, and that has no bearing on how much ownership he has or doesn't have in our home. We are MARRIED.

The unequalness in your relationship says something about trust, or lack of trust. H and I had seperate bank accounts for years. We had "his" stuff and "her" stuff. When we got into MC, we were told we had to fix this right away. No more "I make this and you don't" and dividing assets... we now share everything. This is what married people do.

BFF is no friend to the M, and I would NOT accept her back into your life or M. She sounds immature and selfish... "I don't want to say too many bad things in case you guys stick it out"... what kind of friend is that... to you or your W?

Your W will see this one day, if she begins to work on her recovery. For now, just enforce YOUR boundaries... do NOT let this person in your home. Let your W know that BFF is not a friend to the M, so she is no friend to you. Be a broken record about this. I would stop saying you want an apology for BFF's behavior... there is nothing she could do or say to make things okay... the damage is done, and you've seen her true colors. She is no longer welcome in your M.

BHHFS Guy,

What's new? How are things going?

KM

A number of things have happened since I last posted on this thread, but we had a detailed conversation late last night that I don't have time to relate just yet. However, just prior to that conversation, I updated my "Affair is over for OP but not for WW" thread. I discovered that after 2-1/2 weeks, WW called OM again and left another message for him. So nothing has changed for WW and now the recovery clock is set back to zero, I guess.

The clock is not neccessarily set back to zero. Each time she doesn't get ahold of OM it is another withdrawal for him from her love bank. I would not contact him and ask if he can help you because if he does contact her, even if it is to say stop calling me, it will give her hope that her tactics worked and she can get him to respond again if she just calls enough. Best to leave it alone. Just let her know that you understand she is hurting and that you are there for her. This is a perfect plan A opportunity. I also agree that you need to detach your WW as much as possible from the BFF. She is only making it harder for your WW to come back to reality by giving her false hope with OM. At least you only have to get rid of a friend. My WH's entire family knew and were HAPPY about the A because they thought it meant he would get rid of me. Now that we are back together my hatred of them is even more and I still have to deal with them because they are my inlaws. Anyone have any advice about that one? Hang in there. It is hard, but worth it in the end if it works out for you both. My prayers are with you.

OK, now I have a little more time to get to the latest details:

WW has been focused on looking for a new job and now has three places interested in her. All would require a move, and one of them would be to another state. She is currently making arrangements to visit these cities to interview. She expressed to me that she's not as interested in one but doesn't know how to tell them. I suggested she could use me as an excuse and say that she's worried I wouldn't be able to find a job in the area. She paused noticably and then told me 'I thought we discussed this. I might need to go by myself and think about things without any external influence.' I told her that although we had discussed it, I didn't agree with it and that I would want to go with her. She again mentioned how 'I don't want you to come along and then if things don't work out leave you stuck in a new place' (Wow, me neither!)

She was in a depressed state this past weekend. I made arrangements for us to take a trip to a museum and have a nice dinner afterward. WW was very down the whole time and kept saying negative things like 'I can't do anything right' after we got a little lost getting there. When I would try and show affection by holding her hand, she would ask me 'What are you doing? Why are you doing that?' This continued into the next day where she would continue to say things like 'Why do you want to be with someone who's a liar and wants to run away?' I have a hard time responding to such negativity because I don't think I can say 'You're NOT a liar' because I found out when I next checked the phone bill that she had called OM again late Thursday night after I had gone to bed.

She was just as down (if not moreso) on Sunday. I took her to a movie that a few weeks ago she said she really wanted to see. But when I asked her that day if she wanted to see it, she just shrugged and said 'whatever'. And afterward, she said 'you didn't have to see this, you could've seen something you wanted.'

Before we went to bed Sunday night, she started asking me questions and making statements and we had a pretty long discussion. She told me that she hasn't been bringing up the topic with me because she felt I was just going to throw everything back in her face, be judgmental and sit on my moral high horse of how I'm the victim and she's the bad person. She reminded me that I have no place to judge her because of all the things I did that contributed to this situation, like not doing the dishes and letting a big weed grow in the backyard years ago. She noted she felt trapped in her own home due to my snooping and that I've made her BFF too afraid to call. And the new charge is that I'm dismissive of her feelings because when she says she's thinking of moving away without me I just tell her I disagree and it's not OK. To her it means I'm not listening or validating her feelings.

I asked her if she wanted to hurt me and she said no. So I told her that the No. 1 way she is hurting me is by calling OM and she needs to stop doing that. She said she didn't think she could do that because it's too hard and she just wants answers from OM. I told her that's not unusual and that I think she's strong enough to do it.

I told her the No. 2 way she hurts me is the lies and that if she does contact OM she needs to tell me about it. She said she wasn't aware she was supposed to tell me everytime she contacted him (gee, no, just tell me every other time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />). She then admitted that she had called him recently because she wanted his advice on the career decisions she's making.

She reiterated that she's not running off to be with him, it's just that she needs some space. I told her that it's not OK for a married woman to do that, it's something that a single woman does. 'Yeah, but we don't have a real good marriage anymore,' she argued. I confirmed that she has an appt. with the counselor on Thursday afternoon and she said she'll probably discuss these issues with him. That long enough for y'all? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Next time she says this, ask her how behaving like a single woman will help foster a good marriage again. Tell her that you are doing everything you can to make this a good marriage again, and you would like her to jump on board as well because if she does, you know things will work out between the two of you.

Right now you just need to work at meeting her needs, getting NC with the OM, and outlasting her bit of selfishness.

When she asks stuff like why would you want to be with a liar or whatever, just say "I took vows, and I hold them dear to my heart...for better or worst. I love you, you are my wife and I will love you unconditionally {[add this if you want:] until you are not my wife}

Also, what are the consequences for OM when he talks to your WW? Is he married? Does his wife know? Did you expose him to his family and friends? Don't let OM get away with talking to your WW. Make there be consequences for continuing to communicate.

Thankfully, OM has not communicated with WW in any way since his last day at her workplace on 6/15. See my previous thread, "Affair over for OP, but not for WS," for more details there. He originally told her he'd contact her in a few weeks after he'd gotten settled in his new job. But he hasn't answered his phone when she calls and hasn't returned her messages. Of course, WW has blamed me for this situation because I informed OMGF.

I will try and stick to this thread from now on out and just change the subject as necessary. Is that what the regulars here recommend? Thank you all so much, BTW, for your help and advice! Seeing a new message on my thread(s) brings me happiness that has been so lacking for the last few months.

I think it's supposed to be 'for better or worse' but your version made me laugh. Freudian slip, maybe?

When she told me that moving away and being on her own was something she might need to do for herself, I replied that if it was just to help herself then it wasn't to help the marriage. She continued to express her ambivalence about the marriage, saying she wasn't sure it would work out and she hadn't decided what she wanted. Also that she didn't have any feelings/emotions left anymore, she was just empty inside.

That's good advice, thank you. I wasn't sure how to respond to her statement of 'I don't want you to come along and then the marriage doesn't work out so I've ruined your life even more' other than thinking 'Yeah, I don't want that either!' But I did tell her that a good marriage wasn't just going to happen or not happen on its own.

Bguy,

Essentially, you are trying to work on recovery and NC is not in place. This won't work.

When NC is not in place, you can assume that everything your WW says has as an underlying objective of continuing the A. There may be shreds of truth in what she says, but it is only presented in order to further the A.

The risk of continuing these talks is that you get sucked in and then change your plan.

You need to set your self a timeline. How long will you plan A? Decide that and then plan A, while getting ready for plan B.

Continue to reiterate.

"If you move, I will follow, unless you expressly tell me no, in which case, I will assume that you are continuing your A"

"Every time you break NC you disrespect and hurt me"

A third one I might mention is "If you end our M this way, we will no longer have a relationship, not friends, not anything"

Continuing to debate things with a WS is a waste of time. Debate only works when both parties are rational and WS's aren't rational.

Easier said than done. No matter the pain...I see that you have to pray for patience, and calmness...one day the WS will see clearly (right? this is what im telling myself anyway) and will finally get somewhat the pain that has been inflicted on the person he/she suppose to love. Pray for guidance and keep drowning them in ENs. BS should write themselves a poem, paragraph or some kind of chant to read to remind themselves the means to an end...whether its to get your S back or in the end have no regret knowing you did all you could.

BGuy stop asking her so many questions about anything (move, affair, phone bill, your feeling) if you can. It may be annoying her and this is the last thing you want. She will leave you remembering how annoyed you made her.

As a matter of fact...go a week not talking about anything that has to do with the move or affair. Continue ENs and taking her out. Try this for a week, and if successful then try it another week until she's gone. I know, that hurts to hear but it seems to me that she is determine to leave without you. So treat her as that. This is your last chance before she leaves to prove to her that her life will be downright unfulfilling without you....NO LBs. NO questions, just love love love from you (i know, hard-because you want answers and you want things to change-NOW) but you can do it.

YOU Can Do IT!!!!!!!! And if you do Plan A as perfect as you can...you would have done the best you could--no regrets. Then you dont have to say, "what if i hadn't upset her so much or what if i had did this more."

Because look at it this way....OM is messing up. (actually it seems he could give a rat's @$$ about her but still). OM is ignoring her and withdrawing loves units....right now you are not depositing too many because of her withdrawals...but once she leaves and thinks....might be 3 weeks after she moves.....She may ponder with clearer thinking (no fog) "hmmmm, OM dont care about me....but my H was always there....OM didnt pick up his phone ......my H called to see how my day was ...OM, wont call me back, rude, OM won't have anything to do with me, my H never left my side....OMGosh! What have I done?"

And when she calls you collect "BGuy, I was a fool, such an awful fool"

Kick her to the curb!!! no <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> J/K but not really.... dont be her door mat....she just can't come cruising back. She's gonna have to work and PROVE that she is sincere.

Hmmm, I thought I was doing Plan A. Believe me, I know I'm not in recovery until NC is firmly in place. And it's not, so I'm full-bore in Plan A.

I do have a rough timeline for Plan A. I don't want to reveal that here because I fear her finding my posts on these boards. But it falls within the general timeline that Dr. Harley recommends.

What has thrown a wrench into my plans and timeline is the possibility she may take a new job in another city and move away. She may receive an offer as early as mid-Sept. although she's said she would give her current employer 1-month's notice.

If that happens, it will cut short my Plan A period and I will be forced into Plan B. I now think Plan B is inevitable, so I'm trying to figure out how best to implement that, given the likely circumstances. I'm trying to figure out how to explain to WW and families that A isn't over for her, when she will tell them that she didn't *really* have an affair and that she hasn't seen or talked to OM in months and she's now moving/moved hundreds of miles away from him.

Maybe my larger fear is that she will agree to NC hesitantly, bring me with her to the new city, and then not commit to the marriage at all.

If there is NC w/ OM, you are meeting her ENs and avoiding LBs, she will eventually come around. However, that may take longer than you would hope or expect. She doesn't need to commit to the marriage right now, she just needs to commit to NC and you need to make sure she follows through (i.e. snoop).

Hmm, maybe I'm not explaining successfully. I do not initiate any conversations about the A or M. Although I checked the phone bill and discovered the recent call, I did not bring it up. But I will always engage in the conversation when WW asks me questions, which is roughly 2-3x per week. That's how this thread started for me: 'What do I say when WW asks me such-and-such question?'

I've been trying to stay calm and upbeat and repeat the mantras you all have provided me with. But this has annoyed her, as she says I'm not validating her feelings, understanding what she's saying, listening to her. That I just have my mind made up because I'm on a moral high horse, etc.

Yes, I am so thankful that OM has not contacted WW in any way. I don't know why exactly, but I don't really care.

Yes, that's what I want her to realize! BUT if I engage in Plan B if/when she moves away, won't I be the jerk who isn't picking up the phone? I'm concerned that she'll spin it that way to her family, who will then back her up and agree that I'm a big jerk who should be thankful she's giving me the time of day and I've totally blown out of proportion her friendship with OM.

In numerous parts of your post I picked up on the theme that you wife wants you to be a better listener. Becoming a better listener will benefit you. My wife gave me massive amounts of information when I let her. When you listen you gain knowledge. Listen and observe it will give you power to deal with this situation.

Bguy,

Sorry - I'm not trying to be confusing. Maybe I'm reading your posts wrong with respect to your state of mind. Maybe one of your WW EN's is conversation and you are trying to meet that EN during your plan A. I just hope you realize that anything she says while still in contact should be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak.

I believe you said she filled out the EN q's and went to a couple of MC sessions. These things may look like progress, but they seldom mean anything if contact continues.

Filling out the EN's, MC, etc. are part of recovery. When a WS agrees to them while continuing to have contact, they are more likely doing it as a bargaining chip.

As an example, "Look, I did the MC, I did the questionare, you've been really trying hard, but I just don't feel it. Its not about the A, I have no intention of seeing OM. I just think it would be best if we have some time apart"

It sounds like your WS's objective is to get you to move your boundary.

Anyway, as long is you are committed to sticking to your plan, than the above is irrelevant. I just don't want to see you posting in a couple a months about how your WW has moved out and you agreed to it because she said she would do this or that.

Yes, she listed Conversation as her No. 1 EN and marked that when I am not willing to talk with her it makes her feel very unhappy. Part of the reason she's been unhappy with our conversations in the past is that when she "vents" about something, I want to try and find a solution. It's natural for me to want to help her not be unhappy. But I'm sure most of you on here know (as I now do) that is not what I should've been doing. Instead I need to lend a sympathetic ear.

As you nailed, part of the problem now is that some of her conversation is simply fog-speak and I've been trying to avoid debating those. Unfortunately, then she complains that I'm ignoring her feelings.

She has not attended MC sessions. She has been adamant about there not being a point, etc. I haven't brought it up for a long time because I knew that NC/Withdrawal had to happen first.

I recognize that the EN Q she filled out is slightly tainted by current events, but she filled it out quite thoroughly and with many details. There were also things I knew nothing about. So I'm using it solely as Plan A information, not as evidence of R.

Yeah, I was sure that was what she would say after the first session with IC, but instead she's going back for another session this Thursday. I find that promising, but it's definitely no guaranty.

No doubt. It's very plain to see that she wants me to agree to her moving out on her own, agree to just being friends, agree to everything she wants.

I know will need continued strength to set my boundaries and enforce them, so your reminders and support are greatly appreciated. *I will not agree to her moving away w/o me!*

WW has been generally pleasant this week, but emotionally distant. I thought I had treated her to a nice weekend by taking her to a museum exhibition in another city and then an expensive dinner on the river at a place we've never been to. So I was disappointed when her latest correspondence to her BFF completely ignored all of that and just said she didn't do much over the weekend other than sleep in and watch a movie. I'm guessing her BFF thinks I'm a horrible husband that traps his wife indoors or something.

I offered up the idea to go to a bed and breakfast/massage place outside the city for this weekend, and it was rejected on the basis of it being a waste of money. She did say, however, that she'd like the massage, so I booked that for her. I see this as a positive because prior to all this, she refused to consider getting a massage. Even after she had gotten one, she was very hesitant when I booked a second one, and would use every excuse not to go (It's a waste of money, I don't like attention, It's too far, etc.)

She has a job interview lined up over the next weekend which will require a few hours of driving and then staying overnight. I will be driving us there and staying with her. Of course, in her correspondence to BFF, she says she will be driving over. It seems like she's deliberately trying to make me look bad to BFF, to justify everything. For instance, BFF has repeatedly asked about coming out to visit later this fall and now WW has told her that the two of them should just meet at the airport, go have fun in another city on their own and leave me at home because I still have 'issues' to deal with. I'm trying to figure out if there is some way I can reach out to BFF and share my side of the story and how WW has not been completely honest with her, either. The two of them seem to have a really bad feedback loop going of vilifying me. Which is obviously really easy for BFF because she doesn't see all the effort I've been putting in. I'm also considering reaching out to BFF's H and explaining the truth of the matter, since I'm sure he doesn't know how his W encouraged the A. I am holding off on that kind of exposure for a couple of reasons. One, I know it

I was waiting to see how WW's 2nd session with IC went last night, but she didn't even bring it up. I didn't know if it'd seem pushy to ask how it went or if it'd seem uncaring to completely ignore it, so I just asked briefly at the end of the day if it went OK and got a brief affirmative. I asked if she had another appointment and she said she did. I don't know when that is, but it gives me some hope. Not knowing what the two of them discuss is a little unnerving, but the IC did have three sessions with me, so he knows more than BFF. Her seeing a counselor at all is a huge step, so I'm cautiously optimistic that she will see the truth eventually. But she has inherited a certain amount of stubbornness from her father that worries me.

And the time it could take to turn that ship around is a problem due to the job situation. Between working and sleeping, she has spent all her time for the past couple of months on her job search. In all the time we've been together, nothing takes precedence over her career and I do not doubt she will take one of these two jobs. I think she is under the delusion that she will leave me behind, tell her family that things just didn't work out between the two of us (or that I was an awful, awful husband and she was completely unhappy for our whole marriage) and she'll get to live an exciting, free single life with all her money.

One of the job possibilities is actually out of the state. Will this cause any legal hassles regarding future LSAs or D?

Don't talk to the BFF. She can twist your story, you can already see that this woman can not be trusted. Don't let WW know that you know she's lying about you to BFF. If you really do want to prove to the BFF that you are not the monster WW is making you out to be, beat her at her own game.

This is tricky seeing that BFF encouraged affair, so think long and hard about this one: Invite BFF and WW to a spa together...You call BFF and let her know that you have no problem with her and WW being together (even though u really do....but think about this one, I'm not too sure)

On a safer note, can you call BFF's H for something else (borrow a powertool-i dont know), and just sort of run around the fact that you guys had this awesome weekend, and that you guys are going to do some more stuff some other weekend?

Don't make it seem like you are trying to contradict what WW has said, but that you are just simple making conversation and have no idea that WW has already spoken to BFF about anything.

Or try this......
Call BFF up and say: "I really love my wife and have been trying for some time to prove this to her. I took her here and/or I did this for her" (mention what you did) "but yet I dont think its enough. I'm calling you because you are her BFF and you know things that I do not. Tell me please...What do you think I could do for her to really make her smile. I've been trying so hard but nothing seems to work. I know you feel weird about me and I'm sorry for calling you that one day, but I was just angry." (Who cares if you have to lie to BFF-get your point across) "So can you help me, what can I do?"

BFF out of shear evilness may not tell you anything, but u dont care, this is just a technique to get her thinking hmmmm? She may not even believe you, but she will sure start thinking.

Bguy,

The idea that you don't listen during conversations needs to be addressed.

People say this when they feel they have tried to convey their feelings and they have not been successful in doing so, or when they think the other person has not reacted in a way that shows that the communication has been appropriately received.

This is common between men and women, when women try to communicate issues regarding emotional states, and they seem to just nearly literally go right over the men's heads. A very common complaint that I hear over and over!

Why don't men listen when I talk about my feelings?

hmmmmmmm


Have you heard what she is saying? Because this appears to be her complaint, Bguy.

When she says, "don't fix it", she means she wants you to do some things that don't involve giving her suggestions on ways to actively change her own behavior or try to influence that of others.

What she wants is for you to hear her needs. It is highly probable that she wants to influence YOUR behavior regarding its influence on her feelings. The change she seeks is not likely particularly self-change; rather, she seeks to get you to hear her grievances in an emotional sense, and try to get you to understand her emotional state. The underlying hope is that perhaps there may be a change in you somehow that might lend support. If she has done this in the past, and your response has not been to change (or meet the emotional need she was trying to convey), this is perhaps contributory to the state of the marriage - which was apparently not meeting her needs at the time.

Women also may tend to try to vent emotions seemingly randomly, but it really isn't the case. It is a way to attempt to gain intimacy. Whether you believe this or not, it is true. A woman who has no interest in a man does not open up her emotional state and vent deep and intimate emotional thoughts to him, and beg him to listen to her. Just doesn't happen that way.

So there is still "something" there for you, Bguy. You have a shot at it with her - you need to tap into this emotional need for conversation. You need to beef up your skills.

How to do that?

Listen.

When she is talking about her feelings - the VERY NEXT TIME she states how she feels about something - stop yourself and really listen to her. Then do something truly remarkable.

Tell her that you heard what she said. Repeat, "What you said is that you feel ..... about ...."

Then the remarkable part: YOU TELL HER WHAT YOU FEEL ABOUT IT TOO. FEELINGS. Not a solution, not a fact, not anything else. Just say, "You know, I feel the same way." (If you do), or "I think I feel ..... about that."

And then go ONE step further:

ASK HER:

1. CAN YOU SHARE WITH ME MORE ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT IT?
2. WHY DO YOU THINK FEEL THAT WAY?

(For additional ideas, here are some more questions you could ask...if she doesn't open up with the others!)
3. HAVE YOU ALWAYS FELT LIKE THAT, OR IS THIS NEW? IF IT'S NEW, WHAT DO YOU THINK MADE IT CHANGE?
4. DO YOU WANT TO FEEL THAT WAY, OR WOULD YOU CHANGE IT IF YOU COULD?

Watch her face...............

Because I am willing to bet you are one of the few men to ever ask those questions of her.

And the icing on the cake is that you will then:

LISTEN WITH TRUE ATTENTION TO HER ANSWER, AND LEARN SOMETHING NEW ABOUT YOUR WIFE:

THAT SHE HAS A REASON FOR FEELING THE WAY SHE DOES, AND HAS BEEN WAITING FOR YOU TO ASK HER ABOUT IT.

Of course, if her answer to wanting to change her feelings is yes, it could lead into a discussion about ways that she, or you, or together as a team might do things to make changes that would work.....

Men talk of being glazed over when women talk of feelings. It's not that hard, really. Feelings are just a way to open a discussion about difficult topics sometimes, in a more gentle way. You can get there, but you just have to open the gate with the right combination, and you have to

listen to the answers
and then
ask more questions.

Make it a two-way talk, but one in which you more or less "interview" her....about her feelings....does that make sense?


Hope this helps.

Schoolbus

I agree. That's one reason I've been loathe to confront her about her involvement. Once I reveal what I know, that avenue will be shut down in the future.

Only problem with these for me is that BFF and H live hundreds of miles away and I haven't seen them for more than a year.

Yeah, I guess that's what I've generally been doing and I will simply ramp up Plan A on BFF. Kill her with kindness, so to speak.

It's not that I'll be telling her any lies, I will simply be speaking the truth about how much I love my W and the actions I'm taking to show her that love. And giving BFF a chance to help me do so.

I don't think BFF is evil. I think she is just misguided. She cares so much about maintainting the friendship with my WW that she will never tell WW what she is doing is wrong, no matter what she does. She doesn't believe in right and wrong, either, she ascribes to personal morality ('just do what feels right to you'). BFF has told WW that if she chooses to recommit to the marriage BFF would back her decision, 'but don't do something just because you think it's the right thing to do'

Anyway, you're right that this plan kind of weirds the other person out. Right after D-Day, WW and I had a romantic weekend getaway and I posted photos on my web site. Later on when WW complained about my awfulness, BFF said she was confused and didn't know what to think. BFF has mentioned that maybe I'm just putting on a front. Yeah, I guess BFF would know something about that...

I've been re-reading a few posts and re-discovered this one, which I thought I would respond to. Here's how the dinner and/or movie scenario has gone for years:

Scenario 1:
WW: What movie/food do you want to see/eat?
Me: What movie/food do you want to see/eat?
WW: Why do I always have to pick everything?! Just tell me what you want to see/eat!

Scenario 2:
WW: Where do you want to go for dinner?
Me: How about Restaurant 1?
WW: No, it'll be too crowded
Me: How about Restaurant 2?
WW: I'm not hungry enough for their portions.
Me: How about Restaurant 3?
WW: Didn't we just go there?
Me: Where do you want to go for dinner?
WW: Why do I always have to pick everything?!

So basically I feel like I'm in a lose/lose scenario. She specifically noted on the EN questionnaire that I need to be more willing to suggest things. But if I run out of things to suggest due to her not liking them, then I'm guilty of forcing her to make all the decisions.

One time when we were debating where to go, she insisted I tell her where I wanted to go, so I did. She said she didn't want to go there, but we would because I wanted to. Then she didn't eat her food because 'I didn't want to come here anyway.' Needless to say we've never gone back there.

How about you get to know your W and figure out where to go. She has a place in mind, but she wants you to suggest it. Don't suggest places you want to go, suggest places that you think she would want to go. Keep trying until you find something.

Thank you so much for the advice, Schoolbus. I agree that my conversation skills need to be improved, especially when conversing with WW. I had read a little about repeating what WW says back to her and it seemed totally ridiculous to me. If someone simply repeated what I said back to me, I would say 'Why are you doing that? It's weird and annoying!' so I assumed WW would do exactly the same thing. BUT I tried it out Friday night during our dinner out and constantly kept repeating back to her what she was saying to me. She didn't once give me a questioning look or even seem to notice it, she just kept right on going. It weirded me out that she didn't even notice that I was merely repeating her own words right back to her. But I think it was a very successful evening of conversation for her.

Also in her top 5 ENs are Honesty and Openness and she specified that she wanted me to talk more about my past. So I talked about how I had only recently realized that some of my parents' attributes had been passed down to me unknowingly and talked about what I thought they were and asked what she felt they were.

However it was tough to follow your advice on reacting to her sharing of feelings because WW rarely says 'I feel,' and instead just starts in with the issue. For instance, instead of saying 'I feel like you're trapping me in my own home and cutting me off from all my friends,' she says 'You're trapping me in my own home and cutting me off from all my friends.' How do I move forward with this type of accusatory statement? 'What you said is that you feel I'm trapping you in your home and cutting you off from all your friends'? My fear is that repeating false accusations legitimizes them and sends a message that I agree.

The other question I have is about 'venting'. She talks about work, pretty much exclusively. Almost the entire Friday evening conversation we had was her venting about work. This is in addition to the afternoon phone conversations I have with her and the weekday evening conversations. In the past, my mistake was to try and solve her frustrations with work by offering up ideas and solutions ('Why don't you tell manager X about this problem?'). Also, I wanted her to be happy and in a good mood and talking about work would always put her in a bad mood. So I would try not to engage in it in the hopes she would stop focusing on work. I guess this was wrong, too. But I did not get to use the 4 Questions you listed because generally all she talked about was how everybody at her workplace sucks.

I put in a really good Plan A on Friday night after work, trying to meet her top ENs by taking her out to dinner and having an Honest and Open Conversation with no LBs and then noticed on Saturday that she was being depressed and super-negative again. She begged off all my weekend plans of getting away to a nearby city and getting a fancy dessert. So I thought I'd check her cell phone log and just now discovered she made a call to OM's cell on Friday night while I was working out at the gym. Not only that, but it was 17 minutes long! All her other calls have been 1-5 minutes in length, and she's said he wouldn't answer so she'd just leave a message. But there's no way a 17-minute message could be left, right? OM must've talked to her, right?

So now what? Should I re-contact OMGF to inform her of this? Should I contact OM? Tell him that I love my WW, am trying to save our M, and any contact with her is unacceptable? Expose to his friends or family? (His father works at same building as my WW) It could be that he finally told her it was over and he can't see her ever again because he wants to be with GF. So I don't want to be rash.

I don't think I should inform WW that I know about this, because it'll probably tip my hand and just drive her efforts deeper underground. She knows that I get the cell phone bill every month and that I look at it, but apparently doesn't know I can check it online on a daily basis.

Argh! I'm so frustrated with her doing this! Especially after she keeps telling me that she has a lot of trust issues with me due to my snooping and that I just need to trust her and not spy on her. Argh!

Expose to OMGF and OM's family, call OM and tell him to leave you and your WW the [censored] alone, delete his number from her phone (if it is stored there), expose again to WW's family, tell your WW that you will not continue to be disrespected by her. Then....walk away and drop the subject. Do it all in a calm, firm tone. I had to deal with this on several occasions until NC finally took.

Some might recommend plan B at this point, but if you want to get through this and save your marriage, I think it would be risky. She probably wouldn't move out and then since you don't have an extremely long history together or children, she will probably just look for another OM and run away from her problems. Her affair is pretty much dead, so you just have to fight through the breaches of NC and withdrawal until your meeting her ENs will finally start to break through to her.

Bguy,

She doesn't have to say the exact words "I FEEL" to tell you what she's feeling.

When she's venting, that's telling you feelings. Take it from there.

Ask the questions. You need to become in tune with the feelings that underlie what she is saying.

For example, when she vents that another person at the office is doing something that annoys her, you should recognize her feelings of:

frustration
annoyance
irritation
aggravation

When she vents that she feels someone is talking behind her back at the office:

betrayal
being teamed up against by others


You get the idea. Then, you can say something like, "I hear you saying that you might be feeling like the others are teaming up against you - is that right?" And let her tell you what she's feeling. If you have it wrong, she will tell you. Then, if you have it wrong, and she says something like, "No, I feel irritated and angry that they think I'm stupid." You can say, "I understand your being irritated and angry....." Let her take the lead. Support her venting - because she needs to have a place to vent ----------

and YOU are the safe place in Plan A.


YOU want to be seen as the man to go to for safety and understanding.

Work on understanding the underlying feelings that she is conveying, and take the time to try to state them back to her. Don't worry if you are wrong about it - if you think you are wrong, then ask her! Say, "I think I hear you saying you feel ________ about that. Am I right? Can you tell me more about your feelings on this? I want to understand your thoughts more clearly."

And LISTEN to her answer.

It isn't weird or strange to have someone tell you what they heard you say - what might be strange is that for the first time, you are now offering her a mirror and a listening ear. You are beginning to take the time to hear her emotions and process them back. It is a different kind of listening than you have done before - not weird, just different.

But it does make for intimacy, because you will begin to get more of a sense of what she MEANS by what she says

and THAT is what will make the difference in your conversations.


As for the question "where do we go to dinner"......

I have been in this situation with a passive-aggressive person before. What an annoyance.

Here's a neutral zone solution. Both of you write down five restaurants you like and put them on little slips of paper in a cup. YOU MAKE THE EFFORT TO WRITE DOWN FIVE YOU KNOW SHE LIKES - this is Plan A at its best. When the decision to go out to dinner is "up in the air" you agree that this will be the solution:

She can draw from the cup and choose the restaurant from the slip, or veto that restaurant and make the choice herself.

That way, if the slip doesn't cover the choice, she ends up making her own choice, and YOU are out of the loop entirely.

Because you have pre-loaded the slips with her choices anyway, the chances are higher that you end up somewhere she will like.

Your job is to smile, and LIKE every single place she chooses. Because you are in Plan A, and the restaurant really doesn't matter - it's all about the conversation right now.


As for situations like this, where the choices are forced and you feel cornered, think of a way that puts it onto neutral ground. Decisions are hardly ever binary choices in real life - there are often ways to place alternatives that make for better choices. You just need to think about ways to make that happen.

Yeah, I think this definitely ought to be brought to OMGF's attention and it also necessitates contacting OM (for the first time since discovery). *Sigh* I really wasn't looking forward to having to contact her again (and him for the first time).

I don't think I'm going to confront WW with the information just yet because I'd like to see what she writes to BFF about it. She never agreed to NC, but I made it very clear just a week prior that contacting him wasn't OK with me and if she DID contact him that I expected her to tell me about it right after the fact. She's always told me eventually and I'm curious to see how long she'll try and hide this contact.

WW's family knows nothing, but this may be the contact straw that broke the camel's back. Her family lives hundreds of miles away and she hasn't been in contact with her parents since Christmas. I think I will wait to see what she writes BFF about it (and what her response will be).

I'm definitely not ready for Plan B yet. I still have energy for Plan A (brought her breakfast in bed with fresh flowers this morning; gave her a backrub in the evening); my Plan A hasn't gone long enough (6 weeks); and I don't have B ready to implement yet. Doesn't Exposure to families come before Plan B anyway?

Jesus, just tell her family already. Why are you shielding her from the consequences of her actions?

I'm sure you know the general reason of why (fear of WW's reaction, WW family's reaction, etc.) but here's some more specifics:

Exposure can't be taken back and I only get one chance to make a first impression. So if I'm going to do it, I want to do it PERFECT.

Also, the general reason to expose is to put pressure on the WS to end the A. Because her family lives hundreds of miles away and has very little communication with her (Father didn't even call on her 30th B-Day last year) I have a low expectation of how effective their pressure can be.

I would like to find out what was discussed during Friday's phone call because that would give me more evidence to convince WW's family that the A is ongoing. Waiting until WW writes to BFF should give me that evidence. Because WW and OM have not seen each other for three months, I think WW could easily snow family with that point and simply spin the situation that I'm overreacting and being controlling.

BUT... I did call OM today three times from two different numbers (not surprisingly, he didn't answer). I left a message to call me but also said he needed to have no more contact with WW... forever.

I will try and contact OMGF today/tonight.

I gave captain some advice about Plan A seeing that he will be shipped off somewhere for army or navy duty. (sorry captain if i got this wrong) He said he would be home 6 months out of 2 years...let me find out what i told him and see if you can use it some how for your situation......

Ok these are ideas I gave when Plan A have to be implemented due to different locations of the spouses.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3288888

I called OMGF's cell after I got off work and got no answer. I left a message that she should call me back because I had new information I had to share with her. She didn't call me back. I called again late in the evening and left a message that WW and OM had a 17-minute conversation last Friday night and it was not okay with me. I told her that OM and WW should not have any contact with each other ever again. Based on my original conversation with OMGF (she said OM didn't do anything and my WW was deluded), I don't know what she will do (if anything) with that info. I've now left messages for both OM and OMGF but if I don't hear back from either of them I will consider exposing to OM's father.

she's gonna be pissed, you should just expose at one big blow instead of here and there....exposing will be a LB...and might as well do it once and out of the way. That way she can't keep being mad at you and you withdrawing love units with each exposure.

Yep if there's anyone who needs to be in knowledge...(from you) do it all in the same day or weekend.

My exposure, I told maybe 10-15 people (family and friends), and then they told people who told people who told people.....lol....it was great because my H was mad but whenever it got back to him it was never anyone I told myself....ROTFLMAO. So he would still be mad but would calm down after I said..."Oh, you know how people talk but I never told suchasuch."

Don't consider exposing to OM's father, EXPOSE to OM's father. How will putting it off help you?

If you read my first thread (Affair over for OP but not for WS), you might remember that after I informed my WW in late June that I had exposed to OMGF, WW became very angry with me and lashed out verbally. This took place prior to my discovery of this site and I committed a lot of LBs that night, including AOs and DJs. It didn't help that we were both drunk (really regret that). I slept on the couch that night for the first time during our marriage. The next day I moved into our spare bedroom and have spent the past two months there. LovingAnyway had advised me to move back into our bedroom and last night I finally did. Although I didn't think she'd be happy about it, I didn't think she'd take it as badly as she did.

She refused to even come near the bed and asked me why I was there. I told her I didn't want to sleep in the other room anymore and couldn't think of a reason why I should. She reminded me that sleeping alone was helping her, so I reminded her that she had told me nothing had changed and she was still stuck in the exact same place. Thus, if nothing had changed in two months of me sleeping elsewhere, how was it helping her? Of course, this was logic and she had no defense against it other than to say that feelings and emotions aren't logical and don't work like that. She said my sleeping in the other room seemed like a good solution because it was either that or she would leave the apartment. I told her that sounded like a threat, she said it was not.

She said she preferred to sleep alone and I told her if she wanted to sleep alone, she could do so. 'Oh! So because I'm the bad person, I have to sleep on the couch, is that it?' I told her that I didn't think she was a bad person and she was welcome to sleep in the bed with me and invited her to join me. She said 'it's things like this that are pushing me away from you, your tricks and stunts like when you called OMGF.' I tried to assure her that my love for her was no trick. 'I'm supposed to believe you're just going to lay there and not try and snuggle up?' (Yes, god forbid I do that...) She said I needed to understand that she was not in the same place as me, not moving forward at the same pace as me, and I was pushing her too fast.

She reiterated a few times that this move was an example of how I don't listen to what she says and don't validate her feelings. I told her that I heard and understood that she doesn't want to sleep in the same bed with me, but don't agree that means I should sleep elswhere. 'Fine, I hope you're happy,' she said, before going to sleep elsewhere.

I felt like I did pretty well in standing up for myself without performing any LBs, except maybe Individual Behavior. But doesn't most of Plan A fall within IB?

She makes these kinds of comments..."'it's things like this that are pushing me away from you, your tricks and stunts like when you called OMGF"...

Tell her that none of these are 'tricks'. That everything you're doing is intended to IMPROVE your marriage. For example, telling OMGF was done intentionally...she deserved to know that he was cheating on her just like you deserved to know that your WW was cheating on you. And...moving into the bedroom was intentional. Sleeping on the couch wasn't helping, it was hurting. Moving back into the bedroom has made it clear that its your WIFE'S choice to sleep seperately...not yours. You WANT to sleep with her...SHE's choosing not to.

Tell her that you're doing everything that you're doing to SAVE your marriage...you actually do know what you're doing. Ask her what HER plan is. Ask her to explain how all that she's doing is intended to HELP the situation. Ask her to sit down and explain it all to her, and you'll gladly do the same with what YOU are doing as well.

Make it clear that you will sit down and LISTEN to how she suggests that you can improve/fix the situation. Tell her that you WANT to hear her ideas, and if they make sense, you'll gladly help her implement them. And at the same time, you'll ask the same thing from her.

That'll shut her up for a while. She doesn't have a plan, and she resents that you do. She can't defend her undefendable actions and behavior. So she'll either shut up about the whole thing, or maybe she'll even try that sit down with you...which is a great plan A opportunity for you!

jmwc95 you guys are the same age of me and my WH...dont know what happened to my signature.

You did a pretty good job. She'll be back in the bedroom eventually.

I had thought I'd give OM a chance to enforce NC, considering he had seemingly done so for 10 weeks.

BUT... I reconsidered and just sent an e-mail to OM's father. My hope is that he will do as I requested and impress on his son that he should have no further contact with my WW. My fear is that he will confront my WW at work, which will lead to WW confronting me and the revealing of my information source.

What, is she going to strap a car battery to your nipples? You don't have to tell her your source. Stop fearing her. SHE NEEDS TO FEAR WHAT YOU WILL DO IF SHE BREAKS NC!

Yay! I said these things!

Yes! I did that! I patted her side of the bed and asked her to come sleep here. She cannot truthfully say that I forced her out of our bedroom.

I've told her repeatedly that I'm focused on the marriage and not anything else. She has told me repeatedly that she doesn't know what she wants to do and she has a lot of decisions to make right now. So IF I had asked her what her plan for saving the marriage was, she would say she didn't think it could be saved or she doesn't know if she wants to save it.

She won't have to ask me. If someone tells WW that they know she placed a 17-minute call to OM, she'll figure out that her call history can be seen more often than once-a-month when the bill comes.

This is something that confounds me. She already knows that I look at the cell phone bill when it arrives. Thus I would see the call eventually. Yet she doesn't tell me when she calls. Does she think I won't look the next time the bill comes? That she's guilted me into feeling bad about looking? Does she just not even consider that I will inevitably find out? WTF?

She's not thinking that far ahead. WS's never do. Mine didn't, for sure.

She suspected that they might get caught..."some day". Both her and OM were shocked that I caught them "so soon". But that's what happens...they get caught up in their little fantasy world and don't think about long term consequences of ANYTHING...all they can focus on is how they feel at the moment.


The next time she rants about how you're driving her away...ask her to explain to you how doing what she's asking you to do will bring her back.

naw, she just dont care if you find out or not. She's playing the "lets cross that bridge when we get to it" routine. My H is notorious for that.

He'll do things, knowing there'll be trouble but as long as the trouble doesn't happen while he's doing it, he's content.

You make a good point. I had originally read of the concentric rings theory, where you start with the closest people and then work your way out if NC persisted. I wasn't too afraid to contact OMGF and OM because they both knew about the A. But I was hesitant to do so to OM's father because it was true exposure. I have done so now but it is still unlikely to put pressure on WW.

You all know I have been putting off exposure to WW's family for numerous reasons. However, I do plan on doing so. It's inevitable at this point, especially since she texted OM last night after she refused to sleep in our bed (this is the first TM I'm aware she's sent to OM). She has recently e-mailed her two older sisters and mentioned she's 'been going through a personal crisis all summer' and she went out to lunch with a co-worker today and wouldn't tell me where they ate. So I get the sense she may start exposing soon and I certainly want to pre-empt her spun story.

So here's the deal. WW is headed to a job interview this weekend at Location 1. We will both be going and spending the night (does she plan on sleeping in a separate bed?) After we return, WW will be flying to Location 2 for a multi-day job interview and she will not be bringing me w/her. That's right, WW will be out of the state, by herself, for 3 days. From Monday night->Thursday night. She's already told BFF that the two of them can talk freely during that time. This is when I plan to expose to her family (Father & Stepmother, 2 Older Sisters). I will have the freedom to do so without her being around. I am considering printing out all the e-mails between WW and BFF, putting them in packages and sending them to those individuals for delivery during that week. I will call each of them (prior to them getting the packages) and explain what is going on, how I'm doing this to save our marriage and that I would appreciate their help in doing so. Whaddya think?

You need to expose quickly to pre-empt her spun story. If she starts telling people that you are losing at and are starting to tell people that you think she's cheating, they aren't inclined to believe you when you expose. People are more likely to believe the story they heard first, so you need to expose (and do it over the phone so they can hear your voice so they can tell you are truthful), and you need to give them proof so they cannot deny the truth.

Called WW at workplace today to chat and she mentioned how she wasn't at work for a while because she had an appt. I asked if it was with the IC and she confirmed it was. I asked if it went okay and she said 'I dunno. You probably wouldn't think so.' I asked if she had scheduled another appt. and she said she hadn't and 'actually, that's something I need to talk to you about tonight.'

I'm obviously a little concerned about tonight's talk and would like to be prepared. But what should I be prepared for? Has anyone else been in this situation? What should I definitely not say or do?

BH:

She set up the 3 day love fest during her job interview at Location #2, with the OM during the 17 minute phone call she made Friday night

And NOW she's going to tell you.

Then she will say: "And theres nothing you can do about it."

So what are you going to do about it?

Or, her appt today was with the OM. Not her IC. Call the IC and confirm.

Or, she has seen the light. And wants to reconnect with you.

Before she leaves for the above mentioned Love fest.

Continue using what Schoolbus has been telling you about mirroring techniques. And aim for excellent Plan A time.

Remain CALM.

SHE WANTS YOU TO GET MAD. IT MAKES it easier for HER.

Remain CALM.

And then do what you gotta do.

Expose, cancel plane tickets, rescedule the interviews, search for hidden cell phones, whatever.

One note about the exposure: I would NOT send copies of the Emails between BFF and WW. Note that in your voice conversation, or in your email, what evidence that you have. 1: Conversation with OM. 2. Wifes's admissions 3. Phone Records 4. Emails. 5. Etc 6. etc. The exposure targets rarely NEED proof. You stating it is generally enough. If they need more, because they are firmly in WW camp, then decide if it is really worth giving them the info, because it will probably be misconstrued anyway.

If you expose before she leaves for Location #2, then she doesn't have any cover, cause if she call the people you exposed to, THEY will ask her uncomfortable questions. (At least we HOPE so.)

LG

Confirmed with IC that she did have a session with him today. He seemed taken aback by my call and asked if she had talked to me about taking the next step. I told him we'd be talking this evening.

Thanks for this advice, I was worried it might make me look crazed. I will see how the conversations go.

Are you referring to WW's recent conversation with OM? Or a conversation I've had with OM? Because the latter has never happened.

So, what happened?

WW said last night that the IC wanted to know if I'd be willing to come in for a joint session to discuss the idea of separation. She figured I'd be unwilling to do so because of my repeated insistence that I'm not interested in discussing that and am only willing to work on the marriage. I told her that I thought it would be a good idea to have a joint session with the Counselor, but would want to ask a number of questions.

I asked her if C was talking about a legal separation or just a 'let's agree to live apart' and she said he had termed it a 'therapeutic separation' where we would not speak to each other (hmmm, sound familiar?). I said I would be willing to discuss it if the goal was to repair the marriage, not to ease into a divorce. She said he told her he's a marriage counselor, not a divorce counselor.

She thinks it would be a great idea because she really wants to go live on her own after she gets a new job and be independent. She said she never got to experience that because we were engaged before we graduated college. She said she doesn't want to be responsible for making me move with her and trying to find a new job for myself and then me resenting her for it all.

She said she's tired of me pushing her (moving back into our bed now No. 1 on the 'pushy' list, just ahead of buying books for us to read, followed by 'browbeating' her into admitting she had an affair) and she just wants to be by herself so she can make decisions without any external influence.

She said it was the counselor's suggestion, not hers, and heavily implied that since it was an independent 3rd-party who made the suggestion, I have no basis not to agree.

I feel like this is her way of easing out of the marriage and trying to make it seem mutual. She can tell her family, 'Well, we tried, but it just didn't work out. I even saw a counselor and he gave us the advice to separate. But I'm just not in love with H anymore, so, oh well. It's for the best. And it doesn't have anything to do with the A he claims I had.'

I couldn't get to sleep last night, as I was hurt and angry and confused about what to do. I feel like she's treating me like a backup guy that will be around while she heads off and has fun with her new independent life, built from the wreckage of our M. I know she's still in the fog, but that only slightly lessens the pain of it. I was on the verge of losing it and just felt like saying 'If you don't want to be married, then get out.' She withdrew a lot from my $LB last night and I'm starting to doubt that she could possibly turn herself around to the person I love.

I desperately need some advice. If I don't agree to the counselor's separation, won't that make me look like the 'bad partner' who won't work on the marriage? Should I still Expose Monday night while she's flying out to Job Interview Location 2? Is it time for me to see a lawyer?

Update: I just got off the phone with Dr. Harley via Marriage Builders Radio and it was helpful. Listen to the rebroadcast for the guy from CA.

What did Dr. Harley advise you to do?

I would talk to IC and give him Dr. Harley's take as well as the information you have gleaned off this site. I wouldn't think that separation would help you unless it was in the context of Plan B, and I would let your IC know that.

My biggest question was whether or not I should agree to the separation. He said I probably didn't have a choice. (Which isn't really answering the question <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) He wanted to know what the counselor's goal of this was, which I won't know until we see him (earliest would be 1-1/2 weeks from now). He brought up Plan B, but recommended that I continue with Plan A until I can't possibly bear the pain anymore and am in danger of outbursts. The separation should be for me.

Both he and Joyce agreed that Exposure was good and seemed to be surprised that her family didn't know yet. He said I should inform her family that any marriage problems we have can't be properly addressed until the A is over.

After the on-air segment, he spoke with me privately off-air and asked about some more specifics. Because our marriage is only 7-1/2 years old and we have no kids, it's very likely that we'll divorce. He gave the standard 2-year timeline for the A to end.

He asked me what her complaint was before the A. Since I don't really know when it started, I don't know for certain. But I mentioned that it seemed like her major problem was that she makes more money than I do and feels responsible for all the decision-making, especially financially. He asked if OM makes more money than I do, which is YES. He thinks she may have lost respect for me because of this, but either doesn't realize it or won't admit.

Should I try and set up an individual appointment with IC prior to a joint appointment? I'm afraid that if I reveal her deceptive behavior to IC at the joint session that I'll lose those information sources for good.

I think your being manipulated by your WW. Your WW couldn't convince you that separation was a good idea, so she has manipulated the IC into trying to convince you it is a good idea. If you go to that joint session you will be beaten down until you agree that separation is a good idea.

IMHO, most therpists are pretty good. But people on these boards always advise caution when using a therpists that is not familiar with MB principles or infidelity. IMO, here's why. It is not that hard to fool a therpist for a considerable period of time. It takes time, multiple sessions for a therapist to spot when someone is B***S****** them. Plus, very few therpists are going to be confrontational in the first months of sessions. So when a WS goes to see them, the majority of the sessions are "how do you feel?" and "what do you want to do?" If you tell a therpist I'm miserable and I want to leave my spouse, most are going to agree that you should "explore" that and see what happens. The therapist has no option but to take that at face value until they learn more about the person.

The Harley's and other MB advocates are well aware that every WS says this. Through their experience they know they don't need to take that at face value, so they confront and advise against a seperation.

IMHO, your WW and the OM are still planning their getaway. Your WW has chosen one strategy to go underground with the A. The OM chose another. Most likely the OM has communicated to your wife in both subtle and not so subtle ways that he will not leave his GF for a married woman and/or he isn't going to have anything to do with her while you are in the picture. More or less he's told her that he would like to see where their relationship would go, so he can decide if he should leave his GF. But he can't do that if you keep butting in and messing everything up. He's cake eating.

Sadly, your WW is falling for it. She is desperate to feed her "addiction". In order to get her fix, she has concluded that the she needs to make it "safe" for the OM to keep seeing her. That means getting far away from you.

So she has told you, she needs space, she never had to develop her own personality, she thinks you two are co-dependent, she wants to know what it feels like to be independent, etc, etc. You didn't fall for it because you came here and saw that everyone says that. Now she has told the IC the same thing. Now that she has convinced the IC that separation is a good idea, they can convince you. Unfortunately, if you go see the IC with her, I fear you are in a lose lose situation. If you refuse to agree with the IC, you are irrational because you have not heeded the advice of a trained professional, and your WW can't deal with you if you are going to be irrational. So she will follow the advice of the trained professional and move out. If you agree with the IC, she will move out. Either way, she will move out. WS objective achieved.

Its very hard to view your WS as a cunning, manipulative person. But much like an addiction to drugs, they will try anything to get their fix. They'll try anger, they will play on your sympathy, they'll pull other people in to try and help, on and on. Virtually in every case I've seen where a WS sees an IC/MC prior to ending contact, it is not done based on any desire to change or help themselves. It is done solely as a bargaining chip.

I made this mistake. In my effort to do a good plan A, I gave "extra credit" for every time my WW had a heart to heart with me, every time she did something nice or tried to meet my EN's, every time she went to MC, etc, etc. But fundamentally, she would not give NC, moving home, giving recovery a shot. All the nice things I viewed as progress were nothing more than smoke that blurred my vision. I finally realized that my WW would agree to anything I asked of her, as long as I did not ask her to end contact, move home, and work on recovery.

Let me put it another way. If the IC had told your WW you should quit contacting the OM, quit this talk of seperation and follow these guidelines to attempt to recover your M and repair the damage. Do you think she would agree to a joint discussion with the IC for you guys to discuss this?

Now, all that said. This doesn't really change your plan much. If it were me, I would not go to this joint session with the IC. I would maybe see the IC by myself without telling the WW, just to see what they plan to say, but I doubt I would. I think you already know what they are going to say.

Plan A, then hunker down and plan B.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with rpryne -- that was my initial gut reaction too was that you should meet with this IC FIRST, by yourself, to gauge whether or not he is pro-marriage and familiar with the WHOLE situation.

Hard to say, but the only benefit would be if you could convince the IC that separation is a bad idea. Not very likely. Even if you do that, its not very likely that the IC would convince your WW of that.


I wouldn't do it in a joint session. If you do decide to see the IC separately, then just clarify where and if privilige exists. I know when I met with SH, that he did not disclose what I had said to him to my WW.


Finally, this is not meant to be a 2x4, but this is or is awfully close to you moving one of your boundaries. Fundamentally, you have now agreed to discuss separation. Be careful.

rprynne, you hit on a very important point with your remark. This is one of the reasons that it is not recommended that a couple go into counseling when one is in an affair. The wayward does nothing but lie. Any alcoholic or addict [wayward minds] will also tell you how easy it is to fool a counselor or a doctor. Most don't know how a wayward minds works and never understand they are being fooled. This is exactly why any qualified counselor will send an alcoholic or addict to AA, because they can't be conned there.

As far as counselors being good, I don't share that opinion because of past experience and because of the dismal track record of marriage counselors. MC's have a 16% success rate and most are divorced themselves.

BHHFS, I did hear your call with Dr. Harley and am glad you got a chance to speak to him. I remember him stating several times that this seperation would be GOOD FOR YOU, but not for her because it would actually be Plan B.

He also tld you to expose the affair to her parents. Are you going to be doing that? Why have you not done that yet?

I'm wondering if she told the counselor of her affair, or if she just outlined needing independence.

FYI --
I brought my BH to one of my IC sessions so that someone else could be the one to tell him I needed out.
Because he wouldn't accept it or make it easy for me.

That is likely her agenda with having you go...

Dr Harley kept telling BHS that "a seperation will be therapeutic for YOU..." [ie: Plan B]

This is just a brainstorming thought but, why not BHHFSGuy goes to the IC with WW and says, "Before we discuss any kind of separation between BH and WW, does anyone think the more important step is to end all contact with OM? How can anything between me (BH) and WW improve as long as their is a destructive thrid party involved?"

If anyone answers that NC is not the 1st step, BHHFSGuy can reply that he respects their opinion, but he fundamentally disagrees based on his own study of the issue and this opinion is shared by noted experts in the field so he does not feel that this is an exotic or irrational stance, but with such a fundamental difference in opinion there will likely be no consensus on a sensible plan.

Your WW just made contact with OM. She is BIG TIME back in the fog. I would not go into any session that involves talking about seperation. I don't see how this helps the M at all, unless it's Plan B.

I wonder if you could tell your W you've thought about it and think a MC session would be good, but with a different counselor. Do you think she would do phone counseling with the Harleys? I really think ICs and MCs should be different people. I would NOT use this IC for a joint session.

I'm sorry your WW is being so horrible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You definitely need to speak with the IC before you joint session so you can set the record straight. You need to tell him that your WW is using him to facilitate her separation so she can pursue OM. Continue exposing to put pressure on your WW. You should not agree to any separation unless YOU are ready for plan B. I would suggest that if you were to agree to a separation (for her), then your WW would have to have NC with OM for AT LEAST 6 months. You need to expose her first.

On a side note, my marriage was only 3 years old with no kids, and Dr. Harley didn't give my marriage much of a chance, but that was almost a year ago, and my wife and I are recovering. Your WW will be furious when you expose, but it will eventually blow over. I know my WW told me it was over, we were getting divorced and she wanted me to leave the house the day I exposed. Just 5 days later, I was cutting her off financially, cutting her out of my health and car insurance and cell phone plan, and kicking her out of the house when she finally agreed to NC.

I agree with Katie Mae and any separation should be PLAN B not some kind of fuzzy crap counselors spew. If your WW will not agree to end her affair and NC then nothing you do short of plan B is going to get her attention, imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AA is group meetings. Group therapy is generally much harder to lie in because someone there will always call B***S***.

I see that dynamic everyday on these forums.


Fair enough. My track record has been better. Most I've seen have seem pretty well educated and well intentioned. As far as the success rate, I tend to view that more as the counseling being bad as opposed to the counselor being bad. I tend to think this is related to their experience or more correctly lack of experience and the attempt to counsel on too broad a number of mental health issues. i.e. people who's bread and butter is treating anxiety are more than willing to provide MC. Probably splitting hairs here, as I am known to do.

If I remember correctly, Dr. Harley came upon his concepts by realizing that he had an awful success rate at MC. It wasn't until he got very experienced and specialized that his success rate improved.

Thank you for the reminder, rprynne. I went back and read your post about how "I just don't want to see you posting in a couple a months about how your WW has moved out and you agreed to it because she said she would do this or that."

Are we all agreed, then, that I should not agree to separation under any circumstances?

Well, it depends on WHO is in the group, of course. An AA group is a collection of professional bullsh*t artists and you cant bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. But if the group consisted of counselors or milkmen or gardners, they could lie easily.

Secondly, when alcoholics DO go to counselors, the serious ones will choose a recovering alcoholic counselor because they are hard to fool. Alcoholics always choose recovering alcoholics for their sponsor for this very reason. [versus a counselor or a pastor]


It wasn't his experience that was the problem, but his training regimen that was lacking. He was experienced and he DID specialize, like many other marriage counselors. The problem was that they did not understand what made a marriage work in the first place, so MOST marriage counselors were failures, no matter how experienced or specialized. Here is what he says:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html

and from "Meet Dr. Harley:"


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi2000_meet.html

I wouldn't say under any circumstances, but certainly not on her terms. If you do seperate, I would suggest it is ONLY because you need to go into Plan B. In Plan B, YOU would set the terms and you would be in control.

More importantly, there are major opportunities in your case that have not been exploited, such as exposure. I would do that ASAP. That is a KEY component of Plan A and while exposure may not kill an affair, it certainly hastens it death. Exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer and you cannot afford to forgo that valuable weapon. In fact, in my experience, it is the most potent weapon you have.

Yeah, that's the irony. Even though I have refused to discuss it with her and expressed my disapproval of it, I actually WANT the separation to happen because I know my Plan A energy will run out. (I did take her out to lunch today)

I was wavering a bit last night but now that I've heard from Steve & Joyce about it, I am determined to do so. As to why I haven't done it yet: see the rest of my thread regarding our upcoming timeline. I'm driving her a couple hundred miles to Job Interview Location 1 this Saturday for the weekend and it's a place we've spent a handful of vacations (some romantic). On Monday night I will drive her to the airport so she can fly out to Job Interview Location 2 for 3 days, 3 nights. It is during this time that I will call WW's various family members and my own family. That's when I will be completely free to do so. Right now I have little secret time, other than when I'm at work.

[quoteI was wavering a bit last night but now that I've heard from Steve & Joyce about it, I am determined to do so. As to why I haven't done it yet: see the rest of my thread regarding our upcoming timeline. I'm driving her a couple hundred miles to Job Interview Location 1 this Saturday for the weekend and it's a place we've spent a handful of vacations (some romantic). On Monday night I will drive her to the airport so she can fly out to Job Interview Location 2 for 3 days, 3 nights. It is during this time that I will call WW's various family members and my own family. That's when I will be completely free to do so. Right now I have little secret time, other than when I'm at work. [/quote]

Sounds like a great plan! And I heard Dr Harley even tell you what to say, did you write that down? Isn't he wonderful?!

I saw the IC first (and I certainly told him about her infidelity). She refused to talk to anyone ('what could they possibly tell me I don't already knokw?'), but her resistance lowered over time. After my third session, my IC said he was 'stuck' with me until she came in to talk. She then agreed to see him individually and had three sessions. I was originally worried that setting up another individual session with him prior to the proposed joint session would seem manipulative/controlling on my part. But he was my IC first, so I don't think any reasonable person would find fault in it.

IF I attend a joint session (I will let WW be responsible for setting that up and I think he'll be gone for a week anyway and I think I'll be really busy the week after) writing a NC letter will be my No. 1 sticking point.

Katie_Mae! It's great to see a post from you again!

I agree and that's the main question I will be asking IC: How will this help the M?

I think you answered your own question with the previous statement of "Your WW just made contact with OM. She is BIG TIME back in the fog." I think her other excuse would be the money. She wouldn't even agree to us spending a night at a getaway/spa because 'it would be a waste of money.'

This is an argument I may make.

Thanks! As much as I don't want to be pitied, it does make me feel better that folks here understand the pain of dealing with a WS. But having read a few other threads, I've seen way worse (Hello, Drac!)

I think your advice here is solid, especially that six months of NC must be completed prior to any agreement by me of separation. There's no way she'll agree to that and if she balks at a possible joint session, I think it'll look pretty bad to IC. Of course, any possible joint session we have will follow my upcoming exposure, so who knows what'll happen after that nuclear bomb drops.

This worries me because I can't really cut her off financially, but she could me. I pay for certain bills, like car insurance, phones, cable TV, Internet. But she pays the rent.

I'm prepared to expose now, but I don't think I'm prepared for the backlash of it. Can you all help me prepare for how to respond to her inevitable reaction?

Oh yes, just imagine that you have turned on the lights in the crack house and have brought in a crowd of people to watch the crack head [your WW] get high. It is no fun to get high when everyone is watching! So, she will lash out and will be furious! When she bombards you with "I was going to work it out, now I want a divorce" blah, blah, blah, blah, simply tell her that you are sure sorry she is upset but you felt you needed your family's support in your time of need. And just leave it at that. Expect all manner of threats designed to get you to SHUT UP and stop interfering in her affair. The madder she is the harder you have hit the mark.

Don't try to reason with her or justify what you have done because it will be impossible to make her happy.

But more importantly, BHHS, expose to everyone who should know at the SAME TIME. If there is anyone else, such as a pastor, her grandmother, her sister, or an OP's spouse, do this all on the SAME DAY and get it over with at the same time. If you are going to piss her off, get your money's worth. And if there are MORE people who should know, you want to tell them at the same time so there is a tsunami effect.

So, when she erupts in RAGE at you, just remember this: your job as her husband is to save your marriage, NOT to appease your wife at all costs. Just keep remembering this. Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair. Be STRONG and don't allow her anger to scare you!

1. Who's name is on the rent? You can also stick it to her financially if you file for legal separation and request spousal support. I'm sure that would be a big slap of reality.

2. There is no preparation for the fallout of exposure. I would get on antidepressant meds and learn how to tune her out and not get provoked. The fury will only last a couple weeks tops. Just get through it and once the anger is all vented, things will be the same as before only her affair and entitlement will be dealt a crippling blow.

For the most part, yes. But, If she starts to get violent or something, that's a different story.

It most likely won't be a matter of you agreeing. There is a slim chance that you can avoid the separation, but not because of anything specific you can do.

I'd keep repeating, I'm not interested in separation. Most likely she will give up trying to get you to agree to it.

At this point she will likely do 1 of 2 general approaches. The first is to say she knows you don't agree, but she's going to do it. If she does this, she will try to lay down some ground rules for how you guys will keep in touch, handle the bills, etc. The second is to just up and disappear on you.

While you continue to plan A, you need to start preparing for how handle either of these scenarios.

Put her IC in touch with your MC (SH).

Ask SH to explain the reasons behind your actions right now, and what the ultimate goal is. Tell them that you'd like the BOTH of THEM to work out a gameplan that can salvage your marriage. If this 'seperation' will help your marriage, you'd like to see how.

I recorded the on-air portion when it was rebroadcast and my written transcript is below, for those that are interested. It was immensely helpful to me, especially in regards to being confident about Exposure to WW's family.

[color:"red"]Joyce Harley: We're glad you called, but I'm sorry for the reason. I'm reading here that your wife had an affair and wants to separate, is that correct?

Me: That's correct, yeah.

Joyce: OK, is she seeing the lover still?

Me: Well, physically not seeing him, no. He was her co-worker and he left her workplace. He lives about an hour away from her. She hasn't seen him/he hasn't seen her since. She's been trying to call him off and on about every two weeks and just last week they had a 17-minute conversation.

Joyce: So they're still in touch, in other words. They're not using the policy where Dr. Harley says to never see or talk with the lover again.

Me: Yeah, she has not agreed to that at all.

Joyce: So her asking for a separation, Bill, is really not too much of a surprise if she's still in touch with him.

Dr. Bill Harley: Yeah, as a matter of fact, to some extent, at some point in time, you have to think about Plan B, which would be separating from your wife, where you don't see or talk to her, have no contact with her. The question that I have is what is your counselor's plan? What's the ultimate outcome?

Joyce: You have individual counselors, do you?

Me: I don't know what his plan is because I haven't talked to him about that. I had three sessions with him. At the time, my wife refused to see a counselor. She said 'What could a counselor possibly offer that I don't already know?' After my third session, my counselor said he was stuck and didn't know what to do unless my wife came in to talk to him. So she agreed to do that and had three sessions with him. Her third session just happened and said 'He wants to know if you'll come in and we'll have a joint session so we can talk about the possibility of a therapeutic separation.'

Bill: Yeah, right. The thing that worries me is: how does he believe that this is going to be therapeutic? See, I would view it as therapeutic for YOU, i.e. having nothing to do with her at all until she comes to her senses. It's therapeutic for YOU. What a separation does, of course, is it makes it more likely that she will continue in her relationship with this other man; that she will probably file for divorce; the affair will run its course, eventually die a natural death. Do you have a copy of SAA?

Me: Yeah, I've read it a few times and have been trying to implement Plan A for the last couple of months.

Bill: She fits the description I have of Sue, in my reference couple at the beginning of the book.

Me: Yeah, I had her read it because I was like 'This is us. You're Sue.' And she was like 'Well, I don't see how this book applies to us because it doesn't have anything to do with us. It doesn't fit our situation at all.'

Bill: Right. And it does. She's in the fog. What it has to do with her situation is that, like Sue, she couldn't see the forest for the trees. So she ends up being so much in love with the other guy that she can't really think rationally about the future of your relationship.

Me: She's gonna tell the counselor that it doesn't have anything to do with OM because her new location where she would be going is further away from him than where we currently are.

Bill: Yep. And that's meaningless because she can get together with him as often as she wants regardless of where she's gonna move to. So all I can tell you right now is that maybe Plan B is the only thing for you to consider, especially if she really is stuck in this relationship and is not considering you at all. She's had the information, she's had the chance to read SAA, it doesn't impress her. This is not unusual. Sue, herself, had plenty of opportunity to talk with me about the A that she was having. It didn't impress her. Nothing I said impressed her. But eventually the A died a natural death and she ended up getting back together with her husband. That's really what happened.

Me: So should I agree to the separation then?

Bill: I don't think you have a choice. What I would say is this: If you feel you have the emotional stamina to hold out and you do your best to be as kind and considerate and gentle and caring a husband as you can be, you're probably better off with Plan A. But if you're getting to a point where you're getting really irritated with her and you're getting very tempted to read her the riot act, then I'd go to Plan B. Because that's the worst thing you could possibly do, is to be inconsiderate of her.

Joyce: And then Plan B, he would say 'Now I'm going to do an official separation and I'm never going to see/talk with you.'

Bill: Yeah, and I would put it in a very caring way. I would say 'This is a tragedy, I can't imagine how this could've happened, I'm so sorry that this has happened to us, and you'll have to forgive me but I won't be able to see you or talk to you until you're over this relationship.'

Joyce: Do you have any children?

Me: No children

Joyce: OK, so you don't have to worry about custody of the kids during the separation or anything like that.

Bill: I'd give it two years, and during those two years try to stay away from other women and try to entertain yourself as best you can with things that wouldn't offend your wife and sooner or later this other relationship will dry up.

Joyce: So I hope you have a support system. Do you?

Me: I have some people that I've talked to. I've been really thankful for your message boards because the folks on there have been giving me advice and helping me through this. I'm kind of at the point where I feel like it's time to expose to her family and I'm, y'know, really leery about doing so.

Joyce: OK, let's talk about that. Because we are very much in favor of having everything out in the open regarding infidelity. And they don't know that this is going on? Her family?

Me: Right, they don't know. She's vaguely mentioned 'I'm going through a personal crisis right now.'

Joyce: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Me: And I feel like basically she's going to use this advice from the counselor to do exactly what she wants, which is to leave, be single, and then say 'Well, our counselor told us it was the best way.'

Joyce: Her family needs to know that there is an affair going on.

Bill: The thing I would do, though, in describing this to her family is to say that this is a tragedy. And while there are probably issues in our marriage that need to be addressed; because of her affair, I don't believe that she's able to look at those issues rationally. And that is, in fact, the truth. That's the problem, that no matter what issue you raise... She'll tell you 'Here are the problems' she's been having with you. It won't make any difference how you try to solve these problems. You can solve them in a most spectacular way but wouldn't make a bit of difference because her way of thinking right now is she wants this other guy more than life itself. And so she's using these problems as an excuse. At the same time, you don't want to overplay that point with her parents. You just want to mention the fact that right now we just really haven't been able to get anywhere with the issues that have come up since she's decided to have an affair. [/color]

Obviously this transcript can't convey their inflection and tone, but I hope it can be useful to to others as it has been for me.

Good job typing all that!

I would take that transcript and set up a meeting with your IC to discuss what you want before he meets the two of you.

I have an individual meeting set up with IC on the afternoon of Thursday, Sept. 6. WW will still be at Job Interview Location 2 at that time, flying back later that evening. I'll then get to pick her up. I'm curious how that hour-long drive will go, since it'll be the first time we'll see each other post-Exposure...

I'll probably take the recording to the session rather than the transcript (or both, considering the audio quality from my cell phone is poor). I will also bring my copy of SAA to note the similarities to the case of Sue and Jon.

I went back and re-read some portions and was blown away by the fact that the chapter sections are begun with exact quotes from my WW:

• Stay Out of My Private Life
• I'm Disappointed You Don't Trust Me
• We're Just Friends
• I Just Need Some Time Away to Think Things Through

The righteous indignation that Dr. Harley describes is exactly what my WW has been demonstrating.

BHHFSGuy,

I also asked for a seperation from H. I had just ended things with OM for the third time, and I asked H to go to the first MC with me because I "didn't know what I wanted" (H did not know about the A.) During counseling I was very foggy and kept insisting we seperate. MC wouldn't agree, and convinced me to see an IC instead. It wasn't too long after that we ended MC and I resumed my A with OM.

As you can see, all WW act alike... just as you describe from Harley's book. It's absolutely uncanny.

Kudos to you for meeting with IC first, and exposing. You are absolutely doing the right thing.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting much. I work in an elementary school and we started up again last week. I'm very busy and put a lot of emotional energy into my work, so when I come home I have little energy left but for my sweet H!

Well, if there was ANY doubt left, it's gone now. I just discovered that WW sent an e-mail to OM 3 hours ago. Have at it!

[color:"orange"]Subject: 11 weeks

It has been that long since we last saw one another. And I really need
to understand why you are keeping things this way.

I know it's not a matter of you being too busy. I keep hearing things
about what you're up to and who you're talking to and how your job is
going, including the day you designed your first A1 completely on your
own. And it really hurts to hear those things, because it lets me know
you're making an effort to share all that with people and
intentionally shutting me out. Because I'm probably the one who wants
to know that stuff most of all, and I think you are well aware of
that.

But despite that, I kept quite a bit of distance for the past three
months because you said you needed it with everything going on in your
life. I've had your e-mail address since the first week you were gone,
but I've only started using it in the past few days. But I have the
feeling you haven't been using the time to reflect on anything, you
just used it to escape the responsibility of facing difficult issues
and being honest about them. I've had this image of you enjoying life
with your new job and everyone loving you and having no worries
because you got away with everything. Meanwhile, I've been in this
nightmare where I was feeling like I was being blamed, punished and
humiliated by everyone and having to go into a job that I hate every
day and where I feel utterly alone now. I survived the summer, but
barely.

So I'm starting to push a little harder now because I'm getting the
feeling that my time here is running out, and I refuse to move away
without a resolution. I need to understand what's been going on, what
is on your mind and why you think I deserve to be treated like this.
And you need to finally deal with everything.

You were my best friend here at work, and you told me that I was to
you. And I think I've said this a million times now, but I genuinely
want to continue being friends with you, and that has been the most
important thing to me this entire time. I really just want to put all
this behind us. You said that time heals all wounds, and I've realized
that you're right.

I have to go on my trip now and focus on doing well on my job tryout,
so I guess you get another break from me. But please think about
following through on the promises you made to have that lunch and to
have a talk with me. I can tell you from experience that it would do
you some good. And you can contact me anytime -- day or night, phone,
e-mail, mail, text message, whatever. I won't hold my breath, but I'll
hope you have some compassion for my situation and stop leaving me
hanging like this.

Take care.
-WW[/color]

And in about 8 hours I'm going to drive us both to Job Interview Location 1 where we will spend the night in a nice hotel... Plan A, Plan A, Exposure, Plan A

Well you are not the OM but you also don't have to leave her hanging.... just leave her. Let her realize you aren't the chump who w/b around her while she pines as a Ws.

Let her be stranded. As she has stranded you.

L.

BHH,

I don't think I have ever posted to you, but I have been following your thread.

First, I am truly sorry that you have to be here, but am glad you are getting some great advice here! I KNOW how hard it is. I worked very, very hard at Plan A myself. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but I am glad that I did it.

I was particularly captured by this that your WW said,

.

Did you really read that part? I know you did, because when I was in your shoes, I would have memorized this entire email completely! But think about this part in particular.

WW is FEELING THE PAIN of her actions, but ONLY enough to cast herself in the role of the "victim". The fog is still very, very thick, but some pain is good. We can only hope that it turns into the right kind of motivational pain in the near future.

This also slays me - -



OMG! It's as if she thinks what SHE is going thru equates to what she has done to YOU! Poor WW! She's made her horrible choices, but gosh darn it, its' just not her poor little ol' fault. SHE doesn't deserve to be treated like this? PUHLEEEZE! OM needs to finally deal with everything? That is pure projection on her part. SHE is the one that needs to deal with it and she is sure not ready to do that.

I didn't copy the quote, but she said something about having a lunch and "talking it all out" as something she Knew from Experience would be good for him?? Wow! She's pulling out all of the stops here to AVOID taking the responsibility.

I am pointing these things out not to hurt you, but to help you be aware of the alien thinking you are dealing with right now. It's not to say that your DW won't emerge from the fog, but for right now she is still TOTALLY the WW. Totally trying to play the vicitm here. Just keep that in the back of your mind.

KNOW that right now, no matter how much you give, she is deep in your WW fog, so do not expect to get anything positive back from her right now. THAT is the hardest part of Plan A. Being the best H you know how and giving with NO expecation of anything in return.

It helped me a great deal to be reminded of that during my Plan A, so as not to allow the anger to get in the way of my Plan A activities.

Will be thining of you on your trip and hoping for some Great Plan A interactions for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like something OMGF should know about. Have her block out your WW's email address. At this point, I might call OM, and tell him you don't care if your WW tries to guilt him, he should respect your marriage and any further contact will be reported to the appropriate people. Tell him your WW will get over it after a few months.

On a side note, I think it's funny that your WW thought she was his best friend. Duh, he made you feel that way just so he could get in your pants.

I think that your OM is over your WW, but sometimes feels guilted into maitaining some bit of friendship. You need to make him feel MORE guilty for maitaining that friendship.

I forgot to note that this e-mail was sent to his workplace address (the new place he works at now, not the old workplace where WW is still at). Do I have any basis for calling his workplace? Especially since it seems he still hasn't initiated any contact?

I haven't heard from OM, OMGF or OM's father after my last exposure messages were left. Their silence is distressing.

I'm undecided about whether or not they were really friends first. Shirley Glass notes that these things can start with real friendship and then cross the line. But based on the e-mails I've seen prior to the physical act, WW initiated all the lunches, etc. and he was very aloof. But, generally, yeah, it's ridiculous how the WS will so often attribute good motives to someone who WANTED TO SLEEP WITH A MARRIED PERSON.

That was the basis of my original thread here (Affair is over for OP but not for WS) and I simply did not know what to do with a "one-side" A. With all the evidence I've now gathered that WW was just trying to lay low and wait it out, I will not feel any guilt for anything I do that upsets WW (snooping, exposure, etc.)

I see no reason to contact his new workplace unless he breaks his word about contact. Right now your wife is the big problem.

From a linguistic analysis point of view, I glean this:

She is looking for him to confirm that he had feelings for her.

That this wasn't a romp for him.

The guilt is building within her, and she is scrambling to thwart it, justify her actions, and try to make sense of what happened. Make it "right" again, because the sunlight is starting to break through, and she doesn't like what she sees.

That's why she is including the "we were best friends" part, because friends don't just walk away from each other, yadda-yadda. Her mind is reeling, and she is hurting.

Bguy, it looks like it is over on his side. She is begging to have one chance to see him again (the lunch). Likely to look at him and see what she feels, is it real, does he still remember what he felt (or what her fantasy tells her he felt). She knows it's over and can't believe that what she thought was "pure love" was something that misled her and left her looking foolish in front of co-workers.

I also wonder how much projection she is doing when she talks of "making you move and change jobs". This letter reveals that those are more likely her own feelings - that she feels forced to get another job because of her adulterous behavior.



Don't feel any guilt over snooping.

Stick with Plan A. She will turn around and see you standing there. Make eye contact with her whenever you can, and let your eyes lovingly but strongly stay on hers - very important right now.


SB

If you have access to your WW's email, block his email address. Nothing will hurt more than her long, heartfelt email not getting a response.

Yup.

"PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZ tell me that I wasn't just a free piece of ASSSSSSSSSSSSS to you . . . "

It never changes, does it?
Mulan

BHHF,

I'm looking at Dr. H's advice to you and it seems to me that he had a few really important points:


So....where are you emotionally? Is it time for Plan B? Personally, that's really where I'd like to see you....but if you can be kind and compassionate a little while longer and you'd like to do that first...it's your choice.

If OM were pursuing HER....then I'd be inclined to get you stick out a little longer with your plan A....but this kind of blatant disrespect for you is so painful....I really think she needs to feel the consequences and reality of this little fantasy she has created.

schoolbus.....wow....insightful post. I think your description is dead-on.

I honestly think that if you went to a Plan B....she'd really pursue this guy. I also think he'd reject her soundly. It's a little stalkerish....and very unattractive. Don't be afraid to lovingly detach. I'm afraid she'll only value you and respect you when reality knocks her upside the head.

good luck

(((((((((((((((((bhhf)))))))))))))))

I would agree. Lovingly detach.

Be the man standing there, strong, loving her, but using the stick part just as much as the carrot of Plan A.

SB

Wow, Bugsmom has been following my thread and now posted on it! Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. You're like a Plan A God to me. Someone recommended I read your Plan A thread and I spent days (literally) reading both it and your current Plan B threads. You had such a horrible WS and your Plan A was incredible. I don't know how you got through it, especially with kids. My WW isn't near that, because at least she tries to hide her contacts with OM (not very well).

You're hitting the nail on the head. Any pain and hurt she's been feeling has been the pain of 'Where's OM when I really need him?! Why hasn't he keep the promises he made to me that night?!' which is why I blew up with her a couple of months ago when I revealed I had contacted OMGF. 'Now he can't contact me! OMGF will think I'm a stalker!' WILL think? WILL think?! (She already thought that BTW, OM had told her he felt uncomfortable being around WW due to her constant e-mails and lunch/evening invitations)

Equates? She doesn't think they're on the same playing field. She thinks I get to feel good and self-righteous and high and mighty while she's suffering. And, of course, I'm the biggest cause of that suffering in her mind because I won't let her keep playing with her toys (although I did agree to it out of weakness/appeasement on D-Day).

I discovered the A almost two weeks prior to D-Day, so she missed out on the most intense and painful stages where your whole world just comes crashing down and life doesn't seem worth living anymore. Well, all you BS probably know what I'm talking about. That was largely hidden from her, so she mainly thinks I 'have issues.'

She pulled this stunt before he left, too. She e-mailed him that he was not allowed to make any decisions on his own. He owed it to her to discuss things with her first. His response was classic: 'I don't owe you anything'

It's 100% clear now. I'm actually not as hurt by the e-mail as I am relieved. Because now I'm not left wondering 'Gee, was this statement honest or fog? Is she coming out of it now?'

Now I can even see her e-mails to BFF as mostly fog. The problem is that BFF is in her own fog or something, so she just affirms everything WW says and builds on it. Here's one of her best/worst:

[color:"purple"]But I can also see it from several angles...On BH's end...I think it's devastating to BH if you continue to seek friendship with OM and that will be hard if you and BG decide to stay together. Then on OM's end...I also think it's damn hard for OM to branch out to you right now when there are so many obstacles (BH, his girlfriend, etc).

There are a lot of barriers and it's really ****** unfair to you. You have to think of yourself first and foremost and ALWAYS...and then possibly consider how the other might be feeling. I just hope you know that all of this will get
easier with time and it will make sense. Nothing is easy. I just hope that you're not staying with BH because you feel it's the right thing to do and have fears that you're going to hurt so many people. You're only going to hurt yourself and others if you do that. But if you want to stay with BH, then all means, work on it and work it out. I guess I just don't know or can't tell if you're remaining with BH out of habit or because there is still great and deep love there that you hope will be rekindled. It just seems so confusing when you two are still hanging out, despite the seperate bedrooms. If you leave BH and all that entails after...I know that you two will be friends...maybe not right away...but you guys have been so important to one another for so long, that I can't see that closeness/friendship ever going away. It would be a shame if it did. [/color]

Yeah, that'd be a real shame if I wasn't friends with WW after she leaves me 'and all that entails after.' The biggest shame of all...

It has helped me tremendously. Contrary to what it might seem, I actually have very little anger right now. Mostly bemusement. I do all sorts of little things for her (i.e. opening her car door) and it bugs her ('Why are you doing that?'). Funniest was when we arrived at Job Interview Location 1 a little early this morning and she said 'So now what will we do?' and I said 'Oh, I'm sure the two of us can find something to do here in the car together in an empty parking lot.' The sigh and eyeroll I got from that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Before she was picked up for her interview, she gave me $60 to gamble with and I turned it into $268 playing Texas Hold 'Em! Dunno if that meets an EN or not, but I will try and take her to a really nice restaurant tonight. [/color]

Just to be clear, I have no word from OM. The last week he was at work with WW, he promised her the two of them would talk in a couple of months after he'd settled into his new job (Uh, I'll call you, babe. I promise I'll try). So I will actually be contacting him again IF he keeps his word.

EXACTLY. She has been consistent from D-Day that she has to get closure from him and figure out why it happened (from him). She cannot accept that maybe he didn't really feel for her the way she felt for him and that makes her look stupid. A long time ago I saw her breaking down (now realize this was the fog lifting temporarily) and she asked me 'You must think I'm pretty stupid, huh?'

Post PA and prior to D-Day, this is what she wrote to BFF:

[color:"orange"] I'm still afraid that it was more physical than emotional for him and he's just going to tell me that it can't happen ever again and he's staying with his girlfriend. I mean, I can't be fortunate enough to have all my wishes come true about OM (honestly, I want him to say that he wants to be with me and that he feels the same for me as I do for him) ... it's amazing as it is that I got to have that night with him, which you know I never believed would happen ... but I wished for so long that it would. I'm trying to tell myself that I can at least cherish that, which I would rather have than nothing, as a way to prepare myself for the worst when we finally do talk. [/color]

BTW, that was the e-mail I accidentally stumbled across. It's still painful to read. Oh, and that talk? That's the one they haven't had for four months now. Gee, ya think maybe he doesn't feel the same way?!

Yeah, the job change thing is a complicated issue. She took a new position at the company but seriously questioned whether or not it was the right choice. She was never happy with it. But I think all of us here know that sometimes when a person is unhappy with something in their life, it's actually caused by something else. It was in that very same e-mail where she committed to start looking for a new job:

[color:"orange"]This is the only part of my life I'm certain of right now. I'm still not sure if I want to leave STATE. I still don't know what to do about BH or OM. I have started thinking about moving somewhere on my own and thought the easiest way to do that would be to get a new job in another town, so there would be a significant reason.[/color]

I'll be showing this little tidbit to IC, in case she's been telling him that the reason she wants to go live on her own is because of how horrible I've been since D-Day.

I've thought about this but have two arguments against it.

• This could tip her off that I have complete access to her private account and close that avenue of info.
• If OM DOES respond via e-mail, I would want to provide that to OMGF, OM's family, etc.

After reading all her emails, I really think that she would crumble quickly if you went to plan B. If you found out she was going to meet up with OM again, I would let her know you aren't going to tolerate that level of disrespect, and then if she sees OM anyway, BOOM, plan B her sorry butt. When she doesn't have you OR OM, I think the fog might start to clear.

No need to tip her off. Let her go and hang her own ways. Not her just her ways.

You will have your support group and your radar up. If you suspect anything that breaks your personal and M boundaries...then execute plan B withOUT a warning. No warning.

If she accuses you of invading her privacy, don't say yes or no. Instead throw back a question.... should I? Why should I, what have U done, WS? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (That's called reverse babble and you may have to practice it a bit...... otherwise you could flub it up or laugh hysterically when you s/b pretending t/b serious.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> She will get angry. Know this and don't let that intimadate you. She may then threaten to leave, let her. Then call all your supporters so they are aware she is in a rampage and will know NOT to support the WS.

Remember this is war. You don't play by the rules of being nice. You are fighting for your boundary survival. This is NOT to be taken lightly so don't use it as a tool, use it as a protective action for you and your family.

L.

Whoa, let's not all rush into Plan B before it's time! I can see how some of you would see this e-mail as so hurtful and disrespectful that I'd want to just flip out. But I'm actually relieved because now I will feel no guilt for Exposure and eventual Plan B. Also, I've only been truly engaged in Plan A since about July 12. I don't think most of you would consider that long enough, do you?

Also, she will take one of these two jobs and start making plans to move out. That's only a few weeks from now, so I want to make sure I fill them with a great Plan A.

Ah, but it's not actually blatant because she doesn't know I'm aware of all this. She's hiding it all (somewhat poorly). I certainly don't want her to think I'm treating her nice despite the disrespect.


Exposure to family will hopefully begin that.

I've been thinking about that and I'm not so sure. Remember that she has a lot in common with Sue from SAA. And Sue did not come out of the fog so quickly. She was too stubborn and I think my WW is too. She gets it from the Irish blood on her father's side (Her father has never admitted to being wrong about anything).

Of course, the story of Sue & Jon in SAA is depressing and scary to me for a couple of reasons. Sue gets a court order to kick Jon out of their house and when she finally comes crawling back to Jon (i.e. inviting him back home), she doesn't express remorse and acts like she's doing him a big favor. I don't know that I could reconcile without true remorse.

The longer you wait, the more you will be seen as an enabler. Whether she knows you know or not is not the primary issue. The fact that you allow her to practice her vice of choice makes you an accomplice to this A.

Is your mind and heart in sync? R U done with plan A. What do you think plan B is about? Asking to make sure we are all on the right page when we discuss plan B.

L.

BHHS:

I SO WOULD have LOVED to get an Email like that from my OW.

It would have been all I needed to restart the A. After 12 weeks. Yes. I was vunerable.

I never sent one like that and OW never did either.

But there was a point, and it was about 10 weeks out after Dday.

I remember looking to my BS and telling her "I was really pissed at OW, that she hadn't done much to get in touch with me. SHE WAS SO IN LOVE" And she was gone. POOF.

Why am I telling you this?

Because it is a sign that her fog is starting to clear. W is starting to fight her way thru.

She is al the ways there yet. And if OM remains silent, then the W will continue to battle her way back.

She will really begin to hate her OM. Get ready to listen to some awful stuff from her about how great OM is. Please just comfort her. Sounds very difficult todo, but you need to. Just listen.

OM can help you here by remaining silent.

LG

BHHF,


Whoa...This is not something the forum brought up first....Dr. Harley brought up Plan B (I just happen to agree with him) I also agree that if you can avoid LBing, you could stay in Plan A a little longer...but you need to get ready for Plan B because it takes planning. Let me requote from your transcript:

first this:

[color:" red"]

Me: Yeah, she has not agreed to that at all.

Joyce: So her asking for a separation, Bill, is really not too much of a surprise if she's still in touch with him.

Dr. Bill Harley: Yeah, as a matter of fact, to some extent, at some point in time, you have to think about Plan B, which would be separating from your wife, where you don't see or talk to her, have no contact with her. [/color]

then this:

[color:"red"]Me: So should I agree to the separation then?

Bill: I don't think you have a choice. What I would say is this: If you feel you have the emotional stamina to hold out and you do your best to be as kind and considerate and gentle and caring a husband as you can be, you're probably better off with Plan A. But if you're getting to a point where you're getting really irritated with her and you're getting very tempted to read her the riot act, then I'd go to Plan B. Because that's the worst thing you could possibly do, is to be inconsiderate of her.

Joyce: And then Plan B, he would say 'Now I'm going to do an official separation and I'm never going to see/talk with you.'

Bill: Yeah, and I would put it in a very caring way. I would say 'This is a tragedy, I can't imagine how this could've happened, I'm so sorry that this has happened to us, and you'll have to forgive me but I won't be able to see you or talk to you until you're over this relationship.'
[/color]


If you've done a good job, had multiple d-days, and she's planning to separate, she has reckless disregard for your feelings....yep, I sure do.


I agree one hundred percent. If she's moving out only a few weeks from now....hang on...don't LB....do a STERLING Plan A. But if she moves out, your ability to do a good Plan A will be practically non-existent. I would rather see you in Plan B at that point.


Well, there are other meanings besides "without concealment". Here are some synonyms you'll also find for blatant: arrant, shameless, flagrant, overt, unmitigated, unbounded. Her shameless pursuit of this guy is unbounded. You've done two parts of Plan A....the carrot parts. You're getting ready to do the third....exposure...the stick part. But there is one more... "confronting"...Tell her what you know, how it harms you. Tell her it's intolerable and you won't be disrespected that way.

If she's as hard-headed as Sue....then I agree with the good doctor....you need to get your Plan B game ready....

das all I have to say about that.

Ah, yes, there's a difference been implementing Plan B and getting prepared for implementing Plan B. I got the impression that some of you wanted me to implement right away.

Can you define/explain "multiple d-days"? AFAIK, I've only had one.

Yes, I think we're all agreed that it will not be possible for me to do a good Plan A after we separate. Personally, I don't think I'd be able to handle it, either. So what I would like to know is how best to begin a Plan B. In SAA, Jon helps Sue pack up and leave. Is that the example I should follow? Then send her the PBL afterward? I know the generalities of implementing Plan B, but not the nitty-gritty specifics.


I'm pretty certain it'll all come out after Exposure. If telling OMGF and moving back into our bed both had big impacts, I'm sure this'll be a doozy. I'm expecting she'll have some questions for me like 'How could you/Why did you do this to me?'

Yes, please help me out with details. Should I try and see a lawyer this week while she's away? Have an LSA drafted and ready to go? If, in fact, she does 'leave' after Exposure (and I won't argue it), what are the next steps I should take or be prepared to take? I can't get the locks changed, right?

If she moves out, you can change the locks. Actually, you can change the locks now, but she can get back in with a court order. Because you don't have much property (not a house) and no kids, I don't think that kicking her out and changing the locks won't hurt you legally. That stunt may get you kicked out of the apartment if she files, but again, I don't think that is a bad thing as you would be ready for plan B anyway.

I think if I were you, I would just starve this affair to death. Don't let her contact OM. Does she have his number stored in her phone? Delete it, and get rid of any traces of it (cell phone bill, address book, etc). Block his email address on her personal email. If she finds out you did it, make sure you have a keylogger to be able to get her new password or email account if she tries it. If she moves, don't allow her to get a residence without you. Afterall, you are her husband and any residence of hers you should be allowed access to. Just ride this out, not allowing yourself to be walked on, but not allowing contact to be had. If she makes contact, call her out on it, and expose it. Keep up with plan A. Eventually she will start showing SOME improvement after 4-6 months after NC, if not, plan B her behind. I think this is your safest bet to save your marriage if you can keep plan Aing despite your WW's disrespect.

Just to some up my story, my WW agreed to NC on 11/8. She made contact five more times in the next 3 months, each time I caught her and told her it was not acceptable to which she would spew venom. She wanted her fix, but didn't want to get caught. Eventually she gave up and about 4 months of plan A later, she decided to commit to the marriage again. She still isn't a 100%, but we are slowly getting better. Just lovingly detach and don't put up with her crap, but try and meet her needs. Conversation and admiration (done subtley) are good ways to start with a wayward wife. Just think of what she is interested in, start a discussion about it, and really listen and repeat what she has to say. This will be your quickest and easiest way to reconnect. Also seem genuinely appreciative of things she does do for you, compliment her on new clothes, haircut, and really congradulate her on her new job when she gets it.

Don't go along with the IC's recommendation for a split because you don't think it will help you recover your marriage and that is your goal. Tell him that you think it may make things easier on the two of you individually, but it will also make a split up easier and opposite sex relationships easier as well. You aren't prepared to take that risk to your marriage.

BHHF,

Ah, yes, there's a difference been implementing Plan B and getting prepared for implementing Plan B. I got the impression that some of you wanted me to implement right away.

No, not yet. You have to finish Plan A first. You have to see how she'll respond to exposure. I tend to believe you about how she'll likely respond....but I've seen some unexpected awakenings at that point too.

Can you define/explain "multiple d-days"? AFAIK, I've only had one.

Well, maybe I'm reading this wrong....but I thought you had your d-day, no contact was supposedly established....and then you discovered that your wife was emailing him...right? Everytime you discover that there's renewed contact....even one sided contact....that's a new "discovery-day"....another anniversary of pain....ugh.

Yes, I think we're all agreed that it will not be possible for me to do a good Plan A after we separate. Personally, I don't think I'd be able to handle it, either. So what I would like to know is how best to begin a Plan B. In SAA, Jon helps Sue pack up and leave. Is that the example I should follow? Then send her the PBL afterward? I know the generalities of implementing Plan B, but not the nitty-gritty specifics.

There is no set standard, because each marriage is so different. For instance, you don't have children....so you won't need to address custody concerns. I'll share the things I've seen people do for preparation.

Plan A: Finish all the parts and still try your best to leave a good impression on your wife. Even though it will be unlikely to pierce her foggy brain right now....later on when she misses you....she needs something to miss. It will be her lighthouse back to the marriage. Don't LB. Don't lose your calm and direction.

Protect yourself financially: It's a good thing to at least consult an attorney about how to secure your finances. Not all states have legal separation, so look into that if you need it. If don't have alot of debt, you're both working, and you don't have children....this part may not be as complicated as it is for some. If all your money is in joint accounts, you may want to separate half of the money before things get sticky or it just disappears. You may be able to change the locks after she moves out, but consult your attorney.

Letter: Start writing your Plan B letter. Post it here and get feedback from people to eliminate lovebusters. We'll give you some sample letters....or you can use the one in SAA.

Don't enable the affair: I know in the book Jon does help Sue move, but I think it's a mistake to "help" the WS move, or to finance any part of her desertion. Don't pressure or prevent her from leaving, don't cry, beg or lovebust....but don't help her leave either.

An intermediary: The most important thing about a Plan B...is that you have no direct contact at all. Even emails can do alot of damage or fill some needs. Its much better to have a third party who acts as an intermediary so that you two can't continue to fight and withdraw love units. This can be a friend, pastor, relative or attorney. Plan B is supposed to preserve the love left....that won't happen if either of you are still leaving nasty phone messages or sending poison pen letters to each other. It also won't happen if you're being sweet and just talking to her now and then. If you do....she'll just get that little "fix" and stay foggy.

Don't do it alone: Get your support group together. If you can afford really good guidance....please call the Harleys. The folks here are a good resource, but you also need the help of your friends and family. Don't withdraw....reach out. If you're depressed....go to the doctor and get some ADs. Get out of the house. Add some hobbies, activities etc. that keep you healthy, spawn creativity and feed your spirit. There will be a big hole in your life....anticipate that right now and prepare to embark on some new things to keep you busy.

Guard your health: Sleep, diet and exercise are vital to your emotional as well as physical well being. If you let it....Plan B can be a very peaceful time where you're protected from the chaos and madness of the WS. Use it to rejuvenate.

I'll add some as I think of them....and I'm sure others will too.

I'm pretty certain it'll all come out after Exposure. If telling OMGF and moving back into our bed both had big impacts, I'm sure this'll be a doozy. I'm expecting she'll have some questions for me like 'How could you/Why did you do this to me?'

So, what will your answer be? Read Orchid's babble-back stuff and think out in anticipation. Ask the folks here to give you some ideas about how to respond to this....most of us have had to.

Yes, please help me out with details.

Hope some of that stuff helped.

While WW was getting packed for her flight this afternoon, I asked if she'd left me information on where she'd be staying. 'No. Should I?' Told her it'd be nice to know. She went to the office to write down information from her e-mail printout. I told her she could just make a copy of that sheet (we have a multifunction printer) and she said she'd rather not: 'I've used enough paper.' After she was finished, she noted she'd never given me her hotel location for previous trips, so why did I want it now? I told her it would just make me feel better. She became very hostile: 'Oh, is that what this is about? Great, now I'm going to be in a state for my interview, be pre-occupied. Thanks for making this the last thing to talk about. Why'd you have to bring that up?' I reminded her that she had asked me 'why' and I just wanted to share my honest feelings with her. 'Well, now you've got me really upset.' I told her I was sorry she felt that way and asked her why. 'I don't know, I just do. Does there have to be a specific reason?' After I used the restroom, I confirmed that it was time to go. 'Oh, are you still driving me? I figured you were mad and wouldn't now. You don't have to.' I assured her I did and when we got to the airport and she was headed off to the security line I tried to give her all my best wishes and admiration. She said she was sorry she wasted my time driving her an hour there just to head straight back.

And now that I'm back, I've called WW's parents and two sisters and no one has answered. (sigh) I left messages for them all to call me back when they could and am now just patiently waiting. I guess they're all out enjoying Labor Day.

WW's older sister (married, 2 kids) called me back and I explained the situation (I will now refer to her as SIL1, and her twin as SIL2). She was very understanding and expressed her sympathies to me. She was unsure of how to approach WW about this and worried about upsetting WW. I told her that I likened it to an intervention and there was probably no way it won't upset WW and that was just the reality of the situation. I focused on the fact that WW needs to end all contact with the OM before anything good can happen.

SIL1 asked if BFF knew and I explained that sordid story. She was horrified by it, which made me feel better knowing that I'm not insane.

SIL1 doesn't quite know what to make of all this and that it seems so crazy. She will be talking with the other members of the family later this week after I've talked with them. Now hopefully those family members will call back soon! I'm pacing over here!

Hi BHHFSGuy,

Sounds like you've started on a good path for exposure...

I know this is hard, but just relax and try not to worry about what's going on right now. You've taken the right step, so that's a good thing. What you don't want to do is start doing the "What If" thinking...

You can only control yourself and your actions, and right now, you've done what needed to be done. So relax, pat yourself of the back and don't sit an stew about "how this exposure" is going to work out... it will work out. If you need to occupy your mind, then try thinking about other people that you can expose to...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Maybe I wrote it wrong. NC was never established. From D-Day on, WW insisted that 'I'm still going to be friends with him,' 'I need to get closure,' etc. She never agreed to NC. At first I didn't think I needed to because I knew it was one-sided, he left her workplace, returned to the other city with GF and didn't contact her anymore. But after a few weeks, I realized that wasn't good enough and her refusal of NC was impeding everything. I've stated my request a few times, but 'I don't think I can' is the general response.

If renewed contact counts, then I guess I have had multiple d-days.

SIL2 (single) called me back and the conversation was pretty similar to SIL1 (not too surprising since they're twin sisters). Generally SIL2 did not have a lot to say and apologized for that, noting that it was a lot to take in and she was just kind of shocked by it all. She was intrigued by WW's recent e-mail correspondence that cryptically alluded to a 'personal crisis' and thanked me for revealing the truth of the situation. She was also appalled by behavior of BFF (who the family knows).

I felt a little weird saying that I am working on saving our marriage while knowing that I will likely separate from her. But I tried to keep the focus on how WW needs to have NC with OM in order for anything good to happen. And that will, in fact, be the reason for Plan B.

SIL2 is far less likely than SIL1 to confront, but will confer with SIL1 tomorrow. I requested that no one contact WW until at least Thursday evening so as not to upset her job interview. The key people left are Father & Stepmother, so hopefully they'll give me a call back tomorrow. Since WW is completely gone for a few days, it makes this a little easier to accomplish.

Ok so now the exposure is underway. What will you be doing next? Have you identified your personal and M boundaries? What reading are you doing?

L.

Okay, a sh!tstorm is about to descend upon you and you need to know how to deal with it. Just lovingly detach and refuse to get drug into a fight. Key phrases to disarm the situation are, "I did what I thought I needed to do to save the marriage," and, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Do not apologize for your actions and walk away from any venom spewfest.

If you haven't done so...print out a copy of all of her emails to and in reference of OM. Keep them in a safe place where she can't get access to them.

Jim is right about the firestorm that's about to kick off when your WW is contacted by her family. When she calls you out about it, simply tell her that the truth about why you contacted them.

That you love her, you want to rebuild your marriage, but you know that ANY contact with OM will remain a threat to that possibility. You've asked them to help her work things out...you didn't do it to hurt her, but to help her, and your marriage.

She'll still go ballistic...be a duck, and let it roll off your back. Do NOT get into a fight with her about it.

Remember...the louder she gets, the quieter you get. Take a LONG pause before you respond to anything she says...don't just jump back at her. Pause, think about what she said, and respond...QUIETLY.

It's not the end of the world that she'll claim it is...that's all part of the script.

BHHSFGuy..........Your wife is hiding something............I travel quite a bit, and I ALWAYS print out my itinerary for my wife.......flight plans, hotel, even rental car information. Its not big deal if you love someone and have nothing to hide.

WW's stepmother (SMIL?) called me back Tuesday morning and I talked with her during our respective lunch break. As with the SILs, she was both shocked and very sympathetic. What was different was that she had a lot more questions. She's the first to ask me how I knew for sure. She also asked if there were marital problems prior to the affair. I told her that I can certainly see things in hindsight but was pretty much oblivious at the time.

WW told me that SMIL's XH cheated on her, and I think this gave her some insight. She said I should not consider the OM a homewrecker, per se, because if it wasn't him it would've just been someone else.

She asked me if WW took another job elsewhere would I follow or not and I told her that WW doesn't want me to go with her, so I really wouldn't have a choice. She thought maybe a separation would be a good idea but I didn't want to get into Plan A/Plan B with her. She asked if WW wants a D and I noted that WW had never actually used that word.

Based on the phone calls, SMIL wonders if WW wants to get caught and wants me to get mad at her and kick her out/divorce her.

SMIL feels that WW thinks the world of FIL and that he will surely want to talk with her after she gets back from her trip. So I felt pretty good about exposure after that conversation. But then I talked with FIL later that evening...

FIL (who got a divorce when WW was young) said they were all very sad about what was going on. He had some advice for me, which was to keep my dignity in all of this; that WW would not respond well to supplication. He feels that WW is very much like himself and will take some time to make a decision but then never look back.

I used the exact words that Dr. Harley provided but FIL feels that OM is just a symptom of a problem, not the root of it, and we need to attack the root of the problem, which is that she's unhappy in the marriage. But if she's not willing to do that, then it won't work.

He also felt my spying is not a good idea and won't help anything. He doesn't really want to intervene in the situation because it's between the two of us and we're both mature adults who can figure things out for ourselves. They all don't really know what's been going on because of our distance, so they can't truly help. He said he wanted to talk to WW, but doesn't want to spring it on her because he knows she'll be upset. He wants me to tell her that I've told them all first.

He told me he always considered me a great son-in-law and he was very happy when WW and I got married because I worshipped the ground she walked on and what more could a father want. He repeated that I need to keep my dignity. I think he feels like I am being too desperate and maybe trying too hard to salvage something that can't be salvaged.

I was very disappointed when it was all said and done because of his laissez-faire attitude, yet not really surprised because this is how he's always been with the family. I also know that he has underestimated the power of her infatuation with OM and what it's done to her.

I was in an agitated state for the rest of the evening and could not stop thinking about it all. It just seems even more inevitable now that we will divorce; that WW is just like FIL and will simply say 'oh well, that's just the way things worked out.'

I talked to WW later that evening and asked her how the job tryout was going. She was very talkative and shared a lot of information, so I feel like I was meeting her No. 1 EN of Conversation. I know that she's completely focused on the job tryout because she sent an e-mail to BFF prior to leaving that asked that she not call until Wednesday night because she didn't want to be distracted by other thoughts. She did ask me if I was worried and I told her 'not really,' which was true because I'm no longer worried about whether she gets another job or not or where because I won't be going with her.

I was so drained of energy from the calls that I couldn't finish this post in the evening and went to bed quite early feeling the worst I've felt in a few months. Writing this has not made me feel much better and I don't know if I can make it through work today.

No matter what happens "EVERYTHING WILL BE O-K!!"

It doesn't matter... what matters is you told him. This bursts the A bubble forever. The fantasy is over now. It doesn't matter what FIL is like, how he reacts and how similar he is to your W (who is like this because she is in the FOG). My mom was a "whatever makes you happy, dear" parent. Ultimately, the decision to stay married was up to me.

This exposure lets your W and her family know that you are a stand-up guy who is fighting for his M. It's painful, your W is going to be raging mad, but no one can ever deny this truth. You did a very brave and noble thing.

I met with the IC today to discuss his 'therapeutic separation' plan that he had brought up with WW. He gave me the details (which WW doesn't yet know) and it is very similar to Plan B. The separation entails that both spouses not contact each other in any form for at least three months unless there is an emergency like a fire, etc. Financial details are handled through a 3rd-party. During the time of separation the spouses are not allowed to date, go out on dinners, or anything affectionate with members of the opposite sex. They are to stay out of touch with the AP completely, otherwise the point of it is ruined. They are both to journal daily and spend at least 1/2-hour each day reflecting on how they contributed to the state of the marriage (not the other spouse). They are to continue seeing the IC and share how they're doing.

I shared with him all that I had learned since our last session: that WW was still trying to contact OM, the advice from the radio show, advice from people on the board, the example of Sue from SAA. He agreed very much with the Harley's advice on the radio show and I told him that the separation plan he detailed sounded very much like a Plan B.

I'm very curious to see how WW will feel about it when she hears the conditions, considering that it specifically states she cannot contact OM or explore any other romantic relationships. I asked him how that would be monitored and/or verified, but let's face it, that doesn't even happen in a standard Plan B. In the standard Plan B, the WS is totally free to continue their affair without any restrictions.

Now I know you all said I should not agree to a separation (and I said I wouldn't). But why would I NOT agree to this separation? Especially if it could save me the hassle of getting a lawyer involved with the finances.

Guy - the goal of most "marriage" counselors is to end conflict - NOT to help you save your marriage.

If this counselor can get you and WW to completely avoid each other for three solid months, there will indeed be no conflict, and the counselor can pat himself on the back and tell himself he's done his job.

Unfortunately, he won't have done a damn thing to help your marriage.

Plan B gives the WS a way back to the marriage if/when they agree to NC with the affair partner.

This counselor's "therapeutic separation" has NO path back to the marriage for the WS. Instead of requring your WS going NC with her affair partner, this counselor requires her to go NC with YOU.

Huh???

I say do a proper Plan B with a Plan B letter if you want any chance of saving this.

If you want to end it, then do the "therapeutic separation" and file for D now because that's the only place it's going to lead.
Mulan

You know...I was really against this therapeutic sep...but I will tell you the way the therapist laid it out..it has the vast majority of plan B protections built in. Mulan makes a great point about their needing to be a way bak to the marriage shoudl all of the conditions be met...but other than that tweaking, I think the plan has merit and IMHO, it is a lot better than most therapists do.

I read back through the thread. I am gonna go with MEDC on this one mainly because it has NC with OM built in. If she will do it, then you have a chance.

BUT, construct a way back like Mulan sez. It is still pretty early on in the predictable cycle so be nice to her up front - good memories. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

I vote for doing the separation but calling it PLAN B and sending a proper plan B letter according to the standard outline.

Actually...this would be a good plan...IF...

...the counselor had any way to enforce or garauntee that WW would have NO CONTACT with OM.

But, he doesn't. So in reality, she's going to go NC with you and party with OM.

Given that, tell her IC you've got an alternate plan...plan B. Explain to him why you're implementing it and what the goal is...have your plan B letter ready so that he can clearly understand 'the way back'.

Same basic advice everyone else is giving. If you follow an unmodified version of the counselor's plan, you're going to be in worse straights than ever...not only will your wife likely not want to come back, she'll feel justified in it because 'its what the doctor ordered'. And, if she does start to want to come back...she won't know how, or you'll take her back without the proper boundaries and safegaurds in place.

I don't know...

I don't think it's the right time for Plan B. Your W just made contact and is foggy. If you stick by her and don't let her leave, it delivers a very powerful message.

I would wait and see what happens after she finds out about exposure. Keep reiterating how important your M is, and your trying to save it.

I say there's still time for more Plan A. Your W needs you now more then ever. When YOU can't stand it, then move to Plan B.

I was a mess when I was in withdrawl from OM. I was a complete lunatic. If my H had left me at this point (something I wanted him to do) I'm convinced I would have ended up in a looney bin. If you can stand to stick by your W for a little while longer, I highly recommend it. My H is my hero now because of this.

Also...

You and your W have some trust issues (with SF and money) that we've discussed before... do Plan B for you, but if your W is willing to do MC I really think it would be worth investing the emotional energy into exploring these issues. Otherwise, you will both carry them into new relationships. If the both of you are willing at some point, the fix to these problems is not as difficult as you might think.

I know all of this seems distant and bleak (if not impossible) right now, but I really think your M is worth saving.

Please don't seperate unless it's for your own sanity.

I picked up WW from airport on Thursday evening and she happily told me all about her final day in Job Interview Location 2, where she was on her own to freely explore the city. While she was there she was contacted by another newspaper in a different city and has set up an interview w/them for Monday. I didn't want to distract her during her interviews this week and the same held true for the upcoming one, so I knew I'd need to inform her of Exposure to her family earlier than Saturday or Sunday. However, her flight was late getting in and since I definitely didn't want to broach the subject while we were on an hour-long drive, I figured I'd wait until Friday.

We both hadn't eaten anything in hours, although I'd passed the time in the airport by getting a drink, so I wasn't starving. But during the drive back, she kept remarking about how hungry she was. So I pulled off at the next exit. Since it was so late, the only option was fast food drive-thru. She said she'd get something that was easy to eat in a moving car. But after we got the food she mentioned how maybe we could just park in the parking lot and eat and I told her that seemed like a fine idea. Then she said it was a lame idea because we were wasting time in a parking lot when we could be eating at home and watching TV. So I started the drive again and she questioned how I would eat while driving, which I replied I would just wait until we got back. And, of course, she thought that was a terrible idea because then my food would be cold. So then she didn't even want to eat her food and 'why did you even stop for food anyway?' Can you tell that this was a very frustrating experience for me? She's only been back for less than one hour and my attempts to meet her needs are being shot down at every opportunity ('I don't know why you even picked me up, it's a big waste of your time to drive all the way up and wait around'). She did relent and eat most of her dinner on the trip back and I ate mine upon our arrival. The next morning I discovered she had sent him a text message that night after I went to bed.

She had Friday off, and I knew her parents were waiting on me to inform her (and it'd been a couple of days since I'd talked to them) so when I came back home for my lunch break I figured it'd be a good time since I'd be working late into the evening and it'd give her family hours of time to talk to her alone if they needed it. I told her that she should give her Dad a call tonight because he wanted to talk to her about everything. She was very distressed that I had done this, obviously, and accused me of trying to humiliate her. She wanted to know what all I'd told them and 'you probably said I had an affair, didn't you?' She said she didn't want to talk to them and 'how could I face them ever again?' I reiterated that her family loved her and cared about her and not to underestimate that.

She didn't understand why I do all these nice things and then turn around and make her feel horrible. She said she was glad that she'd been looking for jobs and new places to live without keeping me in mind.

I told her that I hoped her family's knowledge and involvement would help end the relationship between her and OM. Of course, she reiterated that there wasn't anything there. I told her that she hadn't been telling me what she said to him or he said to her. She said he still hadn't said anything to her and that she had told me about the last time she had contacted him. I said 'Really? What about a 17-minute call that our latest bill shows was placed just two weeks ago?' 'Oh, right, that I forgot about. But it was just a message. The connection kept breaking up, so it took a long time.' I don't know that I believe that. She said she hadn't told me because it was too humiliating to tell me every time she contacted him. I told her that was an excuse, but not an acceptable reason and I would not accept any contact for any reason. She explained how she knew the two of them had no future together but that she needed explanations from him and 'it's not fair' to her that he's off having the time of his life while she's feeling terrible and being humiliated by everyone.

After I got back to work, I sent FIL an e-mail explaining that I had told her and she said she couldn't talk to them and I'd try to reassure her. He sent a nice e-mail back that said:

[color:"#666666"]Thank you BHHFSGuy

I'm sorry you had to deal with that, and saddened that WW feels that she can't speak to me about this or anything else bothering her. I'll call her sometime today and hopefully alleviate that situation and some of her anxiety over that issue.

You're a good man, BHHFSGuy. Take care of yourself in this situation.[/color]

That made me feel good, as did when SMIL called me up to ask if I'd talked to WW and would I be okay with SMIL calling WW. She was very concerned about the situation and asked about the job interviews. She said I was very supportive and a wonderful guy. I cautioned her that WW would not be saying that to her when she called. But I accepted it anyway as I figured it might be the last time FIL & SMIL would say nice things to me.

I came back home quite late, due to helping out at an event where I work. WW was on the phone at the time. Turns out she was talking to BFF, who had a 2-1/2 hour conversation with her. She was in full WW mode after she got off the phone. She came up to the bedroom and said she'd spent the evening trying to deal with my 'little stunt' and that my plan totally backfired because her family said she should probably leave me. At first I was a little stunned by this statement, but I figured she was trying to get a bad reaction from me and I didn't give her any bad reactions for the rest of the conversation. She said that it's actions like this one (and moving back into the bed) that are causing her to lose her love for me. I almost started laughing (just smiled) and said 'Oh, I didn't realize you still had love for me.' 'It's getting smaller,' she said. 'Oh, so there's still some there!'

She said the reason we weren't being able to work things out is because I can't get over her one mistake and am fixated on OM. And that is really just a symptom of much bigger problems that I'm the source of. I asked her what those bigger problems were and she said it's that I don't listen to her. Like how I used to let the dishes pile up in the sink even though she mentioned it to me. And how she asked me to get her tater tots on a dinner run last week instead of french fries and I forgot to ask for the substitution and she had to eat fries. And how she said she didn't want to tell her family about this situation but I did it anyway. All those things mean I don't listen to her. I tried to explain that listening to someone and doing exactly what they say aren't the same thing. Because if they were, the fact that she's still contacting OM means she's not listening to me.

She explained how she now truly realizes that she's actually been unhappy the entire marriage but just didn't know it (So maybe she's actually happy now but just doesn't know it, right?). I think I hear her BFF in a lot of this. She's always tried to convince WW that I treat WW poorly and 'Gee, doesn't it make you mad when BHHFSGuy does this? It should. I'd be unhappy/mad.'

She asked me if I felt good about myself and smug and satisfied with the stunt I'd pulled. Said I think so highly of myself and I'm self-righteous and a hypocrite. That I have some gall to constantly press her about being honest and not lying when I have my own secrets and am being deceptive all the time. She said my scheme had totally backfired just like when I contacted OMGF but didn't realize OM had been gaslighting her (this is the first time I've heard WW use the term 'gaslighting').

I had prepared myself for much worse reactions, so I had no trouble letting most of it run off me and responded much less than I usually do. Reason truly has no place in these conversations. However, I did tell her that she was the one that needed to get over OM and she said she didn't need either of us and wanted to just go away and be strong on her own and not be my trophy wife & breadwinner anymore (is it really possible for someone to be a trophy wife & a breadwinner? Aren't they mutually exclusive?). Yet other times she said she didn't even know why I wanted to be with her anymore and 'why are you even trying?'

She said her family had invited her to come visit for a family retreat soon. I told her it'd be good, which I do believe. I think she wanted me to be grabby and protective and say she couldn't talk to her family anymore because they were a bad influence. I don't truly know what they said to her, but the talks only lasted 26 and 17 minutes prior to the 179-minute call to BFF, so I think there was more of BFF in her speech than ILs. Oh, and she had called and texted OM that night too.

I think she wanted me to freak out about her talking about leaving/separating, which, of course, does not scare me at all. I would welcome it with some relief. There were semi-threats, like how if I didn't stop pulling all these stunts and making her feel horrible that she might just leave me. I simply stated 'OK' anytime she mentioned leaving. I'm not going to push her out the door, but I'm not going to grab onto her ankles and try and drag her back in if she did. One of my co-workers asked me an interesting question that I didn't have a simple answer for: 'Why hasn't she left?' Classic fence-sitter, though?

This morning I went out and dropped off her mail at the post office (which reminds me of another crappy story from earlier this week), picked up the new Buffy comic book for her, a turkey sub from one of her favorite sub places, and we had a pleasant lunch sitting next to each other before I left for work. I shared my drink with her because we were out of soda and she had no complaints.

Gee, is that long enough for ya? I'll try and respond to your messages about the IC's separation plan soon, but we don't even have an appt. set up yet, so there's no rush there. I will continue to Plan A right now, but my energy has lowered considerably in the last couple of weeks, so I'm detaching a bit (hence being at work on a Saturday afternoon) and will continue to prep for Plan B.

17 minutes to leave a message....ah the lies WS tell.

I thought there was a time limit for messages, I have had messages cut off if they go long?

Good job and not letting her get a rise out of you. Just keep meeting her needs when she allows you, and avoid LBs (like you did today) and get ready to hit her with plan B.

typical WS reacton to exposure, including pretending those exposed to all approve of the adultery and want her to leave you...

oh yea, I forgot, there is no adultery... (hmph)

I think you handled it very well!

I think it would be a godd idea for her to go spend some time with her family. It will give you a break from her insanity and will give her family an opportunity to confront her. (I doubt seriously they responded to the exposure the way she claims.) Also, the family may notice her sneaking to contact OM, um the OM she supposedly is NOT having an A with... the OM you are just imagining... That shoudl prove a challenge to her LOL

WW came into the bedroom last night while I was getting ready for bed and started to talk about things again, but in a much less foggy mode. At first she was asking about how long I had talked to everyone and how it had probably used up most of the shared minutes of our cell phone plan (as if that is a real big concern right now; plus it's one of the bills I pay). I tried to assure her that she still had hundreds of minutes left to use. She wanted to return a message left by SIL1. I was glad to hear this, as I originally wasn't sure if SIL1 would feel comfortable initiating a conversation with WW.

WW also brought up the family retreat that is next weekend. Her family has offered to pay her airfare so she can join them, but WW isn't sure she wants to go since 'they didn't originally want me there. So now they just want me there because of this.' Plus she'd have to take another day or two off work so soon after taking a week off to surreptitiously do job interviews (her current manager/boss doesn't know she wants to leave).

WW started discussing the two job opportunities she's interviewed for so far. She was talking about the benefits/disadvantages of each and what she liked/didn't like about their locations. These discussions are difficult for me because she's basically asking my advice on where to go when she leaves me, but I tried to forget about that and just converse with her about it as if that wasn't an issue at all. I think I was meeting her No. 1 EN of Conversation, and I tried to throw in some Admiration where I could, since the day saw little RC. Also new to the conversation was the statement that she might not give her current employer one month's notice, as originally planned, but 2-3 weeks. Ironically enough, she got a jury summons in the mail on Friday for the week of Oct. 15.

She mentioned that BFF was still hoping to come down and visit us in a few weeks, which surprised me a little, considering I'd told WW's family about BFF's involvement in the development of A (which, of course, it was/is not). I said her visit would be fine by me but mentioned she'd have to sleep on the couch since WW was using the spare bedroom. WW said BFF could use the spare bedroom and WW would sleep on the couch. BFF is a few months pregnant now so the available time for her to come visit is limited. WW brought up the concept of the two of them just going into 'the city' by themselves since she was afraid BFF and I would get into a fight. I tried to assure her that I'd be fine with BFF visiting and the three of us should do some fun things together. I can't say I'm looking forward to that possibility, but I will try to continue and Plan A BFF because any LBs I send her way will undoubtedly be relayed straight to WW. I also think it will be a way of giving WW a preview of our future marriage, where I'm not vindictive to BFF. I don't want to give BFF any ammunition.

WW asked what my parents said when I talked to them and whether or not my Mom would be calling (she normally calls us every week or two to check in and this has been an annoyance for WW). I told her they were very sad about the situation and would be praying for us. Wasn't sure if that was a good idea to mention or not, since WW is not a practicing Christian. Also that both my Mom and I agreed she should not call WW because it probably wouldn't do any good. WW has really wanted to know what exactly I've told everyone and what they've said to me in return. In the case of my parents, she speculated that 'they probably told you to ditch me' and that everything was her fault and that I'm perfect. I said that wasn't the case and they'd said no such thing.

WW also wanted to know if I was still planning to not tell her biological Mother, which I confirmed. The two of them are basically estranged, so I think it'd be a really bad idea. WW doesn't normally answer calls from her mother, so she certainly wouldn't want to talk to her about this. WW said 'I guess you know that much about me.'

She left me to sleep while she called SIL1. That conversation lated 189 minutes (10 minutes longer than call from BFF) so I think that's a good sign. Since she's got another job interview/test tomorrow, I don't want to distract her mind today with all this talk.

I'm not sure if it would be LBing or not... so maybe not a good idea... but when my WXH (and his family) brought up the expense of any responses I had to his adulteries (MC, private detective, lawyer, divorce, cellphone usage to expose, etc.) I would respond with the fact that the adultery itself was taking money away from our family plus all expsense of the consequences of his adultery were all expenses caused by him and his OW.

You might want to ask more experienced posters if this is a good idea or not though... after all I was NOT successful at saving my marriage LOL (I'm much better at debate than my WXH was and even sarcastic at times... so I know an LB from my WXH's pov was that he could never win an argument with me. Of course since he was basically trying to argue that his adulteries were OK and that I should just allow them I don't feel guilt about not letting him win those arguments LOL)

SIL2 called WW last night and the two of them talked for 174 minutes. I ended up heading to bed before they were finished, but WW came into the bedroom afterward and had a brief conversation with me. I was kind of tired, so I don't remember it all, but she was in a bit of a foggy/WW mode. She brought up the idea of the separation again and asked if I was scared. I said I wasn't. I got the feeling she thinks I'm just hanging on desperately because I don't know how to live without her and I depend on her too much. Thus I've fought separation because I'm scared. I was tired and didn't trust myself not to say something I'd regret, so I mainly just kept quiet. It probably gave her the impression that I was tacitly agreeing with what she said or that it hit home, but I still felt that was better than trying to reason with her.

Due to the late hour, she apologized for waking me and didn't want to stay and talk. I asked her for a goodnight hug before she left and got 'Gee, I dunno.' She reluctantly came and sat down next to me while I hugged her. I offered to give her a back rub or foot rub or anywhere else rub, but she begged off and apologized for not wanting to give me a goodnight hug. Of course, I'm sure she's told all her family that she's been trying to work on the marriage.

Now that I've exposed to friends, co-workers and both of our families, I've been getting more opinions/advice than I had in the first few months when it was just me and anonymous Internet users who've been through the same experience.

I mentioned that I was quite down after talking with FIL because his advice to me seemed to be about steeling myself for divorce. My Father also expressed that I should not feel bad about getting a divorce and he would not judge me for doing so. Now my Mother has noted that it will be very hard for her to face WW 'after the turmoil she has created on people that love her.' Meanwhile WW asks me 'Why do you even want to be with me still?' and says her family thinks we should separate. My co-workers feel sorry for me but probably wonder why I am putting so much effort into someone that consistently hurts me. One of my friends even asked me 'How can you stand to look at her?'

So am I really making the right choice by trying to save this marriage? Is this just a moment of doubt and I'll be happy to have proved them wrong in xx months? Have the rest of you felt like this and overcome it successfully?

Yep. Most people just don't want to see you suffer and don't understand because they haven't been through what you are going through. They'll support you and agree with your decision if your WW commits again.

WW is back at work for the first time after a 10-day break. I took her out to lunch and she shared how depressed she is to be back and how she doesn't want to be there anymore. She's sick of our city and is thinking of just taking the job at Location 1 without waiting for offers from Job Locations 2 and 3. She also said she was no longer interested in giving a month's notice and would instead just give two weeks.

She asked me a few questions about my family and what they said and think about her. She said she would never be able to face any of them again. I said that wasn't true, noting she had said the same thing about her own family and now they've invited her to a weekend family retreat ('Yeah, but they're my family, so that's different'). Speaking of which, WW still hasn't decided whether or not she'll go to the retreat this weekend.

Jim has a very nice story about his sister and her wedding he'll probably share with you.

This kind of familial probing sounds very familiar. Be supportive and reassuring in this!

Best wishes,

Jay

I met with our landlord today, who is a lawyer, to explain my situation. I wasn't expecting free legal advice (he is a lawyer, after all) but mainly just wanted him to know that WW was planning on moving away w/o me and I would not be able to afford the apartment on my own unless I got 'spousal support.' He was very eager to help. Maybe even too eager, as he offered to draw up divorce papers for me and said he wouldn't charge me much. 'Gee, thanks,' I guess, but instead asked for a recommendation/referral for a good lawyer, which he e-mailed to me later in the afternoon. I put in a call to her but haven't heard back yet. How should I prepare for my first meeting with her?

Here are just a few things landlord lawyer mentioned to me:

If WW moves to another county and lives there for 3 months, I could be required to deal with Divorce/Separation proceedings there.

I said I was interested in legal separation and he cautioned against that, saying it would be a waste of attorney fees since there's very little difference between legal separation and divorce and when I wanted to divorce I'd have to go through all the steps again. Can you all assure me that, in fact, I DO want to get a separation because my goal is to preserve the marriage?

He said I should get a copy of WW's bank statements to find out how much she's saved away. I've done so (nearly $20K).

Since Exposure, WW hadn't really used her secret/private gmail account, so I thought maybe the knowledge of my access to it had been passed along. But today she e-mailed BFF again. Give me your thoughts on this selected portions:

[color:"green"]So I'm getting ever more tempted by the LOCATION #1 job, particularly with the latest offer of a very cool condo in the best part of town that I could move into immediately and stay in indefinitely. Plus the town has Vegas features on a smaller level (casinos and nightclubs).

But I realized yesterday that no matter what, I will be in CURRENT CITY for at least another month. I let one of my staffers schedule vacation time for the first two weeks of October. I gave the OK for it because I knew that once I leave, my staffers are not going to be able to take any time off. And she's a great worker and deserves a break before the next hardship in the Online Department kicks in courtesy of me. Also, that damn jury summons is for mid-October, and I can't get out of it. "I'm planning to get a new job and leave town and my husband" isn't listed as a reason to get excused from jury duty.

I was telling my dad that last night, and I think my realization upset him. He wants me to get away from BHHFSGuy immediately. But I feel OK ... just knowing there's a way out in sight makes me feel way better than I have the past few months. I know I'll survive, especially after the summer I went through. Of course I wish it was just a couple of weeks before I could be free to change my life around, but I still need to be responsible and professional at work. I have future job references to consider. And it's going to be a lot of hard work to wrap up my job and move, so I think I'm kind of wanting to procrastinate on the unpleasantness of it all.[/color]

Yeah, what a rough summer she went through. Any thoughts or advice on this?

Protect yourself.

Protect your assets. Move your money before she gets to it. She has no intentions of allowing you to try to recover the marriage at this point, and you need to be very watchful so she doesn't clean you out as she leaves. Her email reeks of anger and contempt - with only ONE thing in mind, which is HERSELF.

Do not trust anything she says to you. She does not have your interests in her heart.

SB

WW has all the money. I have less than $2K that is "mine." Should I file for legal separation prior to any move on her part in order to ensure she can't take all "her" money and run, spending it on moving expenses, new place, stuff, etc.?

Have you had SF with her since finding out about her affair? If she offers, I wouldn't because it would be condonation of adultery. Depending on what state you live in, you can get more/less based on marital misconduct. You also might want to move half of "her" money into an account that only you have access to, so she cannot spend it all and leave you with nothing. I will try and give Mr. Wondering a heads up to look at your thread to see how to proceed.

In regards to SF, no IC. I almost laughed when I read "If she offers," considering she doesn't even like to reciprocate hugs, noting 'I don't want to give you the wrong idea.'

My state is CA and the info I've found online states marital fault or misconduct is not taken into consideration when determining an award of spousal support, but it is taken into consideration when "dividing marital or community property or in reimbursing the marital or community estate."

I doubt I can move any of her money since my name is not on either her checking or savings accounts.

Also, what are the states she is planning on moving to. Almost all states have better divorce laws than CA. Hopefully, she finds a job in the deep south. If your ultimate goal is to stay married, I would still try and follow her to the new location, even if she resists. Establish yourself in that state, and if you have to file eventually, you will be a resident of that state and be able to take advantage of the divorce laws if they are better.

As others have noted, you really need a lawyer at this point. Frankly, I would make that priority-one.

Found WW's latest text message exchange with BFF:

WW: I am SO depressed to be back at work now. It is so tempting to just give my notice now and figure out where I'm going later. I need to get away from all this!

BFF: You should just quit! Do it for your sanity!

WW: I've wanted to do it all summer and could have totally afforded to. But I have to think of my career in the future. I also dread explaining why I'm leaving.

My LB$ has been emptying quickly the last few days. I'm glad she's taken her parents' offer to fly up to OR for the weekend for a family getaway.

I suggest laying really low, hiring an attorney and filing for divorce.

With a copy of her bank statement in a community property state she is going to have to split up that $20,000 with you. If you delay or hint at a forthcoming filing she may just withdraw the money and convert it into cash. Claiming she spent it on whatever. This MAY just keep her in state and you can still MB while the divorce is pending. She is relying on this money to move and you may preempt that. Plus, you can expose the affair to her workplace which may effect that covetted "good recommendation" she seems so concerned about. She also may just pack up and leave once you file.

On the other hand, if you don't care at all about the money and merely want to save this childless marriage. Then I could conceive of a sceanario where WW's email is merely an indication of what she is telling OM. She's putting him off. The affair thrives on lies and manipulations. IF WW really wanted to take off...there is nothing stopping her really. Instead she is spinning OM this story because she doesn't want to tell him the real truth. She is conflicted. If she told him that...he'd act differently. He'd be hurt and wouldn't be providing the false thrill of admiration and affection. Instead SHE would have to spend countless hours assuring him of her "love" for him.

Thus, it may seem WW has made a decision when she really hasn't. OM is placated, for another day or week. That's all WW is really concerned about. She needs her OM fix. Her OM dosage is maximized by lying to him and putting him off. She's still completely unsure what she's gonna do but that decision is for another day. Today...she is content.

At the very least, WW's email indicates you still have time for Plan A. You can fill these next few weeks/months with Plan A and then when she leaves...Plan B. Make her carry all the load as far as filing for divorce and such. Hopefully, the affair will crumble in on itself in the meantime. Eventually, in Plan B, you will have peace. No more snooping. Nor more "trying". Just preserving your lovebank for the day OM and WW breakup and she comes scurrying back to the man that stood by her side despite her HORRIFIC life choices.

If the money is no concern. No need to scramble. No kids. No custody battle. Just patience and eventually Plan B to preserve what remaining love you hold for her and hope.

Mr. Wondering

The referred lawyer called me up a few minutes ago and said she had talked to my landlord in court today about me. She asked me to explain the situation and I tried to sum it up as best as I could. She was very, very insightful. She said that a lot of times the WS fights really hard to leave but then ends up breaking up with the AP in a few months. So if I wanted to try and let that scenario occur I should not file for divorce. She agreed that my WW probably doesn't want to file for divorce because it would make it harder for her to feel better about herself. She said I should not accept any blame from WW for trying to be faithful and true to the marriage. I told her it sounded like she's seen a lot of these scenarios and she said 'Unfortunately, Yes.' I really felt good about our conversation and feel like she would be a great lawyer to represent me. The only problem is that she's leaving for vacation now so the earliest I could meet with her is Sept. 26. Obviously I wish I could meet with her right this minute, but I'm thinking two weeks should be wait-able considering WW just wrote to BFF that she'd be staying through the week of Oct. 15.

I should say here also..

My post doesn't say do nothing and await your fate.

Plan A includes the carrot AND the stick.

Expose away...even OM and his family (I don't remember if you covered this). Maybe even her workplace, though it may seem that would hasten her decision to leave. If she gonna leave...she's gonna leave. Call her bluff. Then OM will be pressuring her harder to leave when she's likely just not ready too.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W,

The email was from WW to BFF, not OM. OM pretty much wants nothing to do with her WW and has moved on to another job and is back with his girlfriend. OM still fields a call or two from WW, but has pretty much moved on. Does that change your advice?

Only slightly.

She's still conflicted and putting off the friend. She even refers to being "more tempted" which implies there is more under the surface holding her back.

I wonder what's up with WW's father wanting her away from you so much. You might have typed up something about that earlier. Hopefully it's just an initial reaction to exposure (you are mean cause you implied his daughter was a slut). If you have any relationship with him at all you could call him just to talk and garner his confidence. Kind of a friends close and enemies closer kinda thing.

Tough sitch. I am hoping this move thing is merely a continuation of "escapist" "fantasy" thinking of a typical wayward spouse. In reality...she's to depressed and distraught emoitional to do much of anything...but it's fun to fantasize about.

Mr. Wondering

I don't think that FIL wants him away from WW, but rather WW is "projecting." If anything, FIL just wants WW to be "happy." Or, maybe he wants WW to stop leading her BS on and just end it if she is planning on leaving. Most of the family seemed to be very understanding of BHHFS and disappointed in WW and BFF.

I still think your best bet is to follow WW to the new job and plan A because the A is pretty much dead especially if WW moves across the country from OM. You can then plan B her from your new location if things don't improve. There isn't much to gain from filing now except maybe only $10,000 and that will probably hurt your chances at reconciliation.

Also, what state is job #1 located in?

If she's dying to move and you are OK with moving yourself...then move with her.

No better way to Plan A than to participate TOGETHER in the fantasy and excitement of a fresh start in a new city. All the packing and preparations will be done TOGETHER.

Hopefully, you WILL NOT be moving anywhere near enabling BFF.

Mr. W

How have you been doing in plan A? Have you scheduled any fun things. What are you doing together with your WW? What would she enjoy? Think about it, and try and schedule fun things to do. If she doesn't join you, so what, go out and have fun anyway. If she doesn't want to spend money, you make the sacrifice to go have fun (or your WW is on the hook for your debt anyway). Try and reconnect with her any way that you can. The A is pretty much over, now is your chance to try and reconnect. Keep it light and fun.

I'll try and answer a batch of questions here in one post:

There is no longer any other state in the mix. Lost Wages, NV, was Job Possibility No. 2 but they just called this afternoon to let her know she didn't get the job (she wasn't interested after the tryout anyway). Job Possibility No. 1 is the Lost Wages of CA. It's still technically in CA, but just barely (on the state line) and is only about 2 hours away from location of OM (we currently live 45 minutes away from OM's city). They just now offered her the job and gave her until Monday night to accept.

There's a lot I will do to save this marriage, but I really don't think I could follow her from either a financial or emotional standpoint. I don't want to live there, especially on my own.


She does not want me to go with her, period.

BFF lives 9 hours away. The move to Job Location #1 would change little to nothing since they communicate via phone, e-mail and text message.

Yeah, I'm a little confused about this myself, but I've heard nothing from FIL, SMIL, SIL1 or SIL2 since they talked to WW (repeatedly). I have to assume that she spun the same story about how awful I'm treating her and I just can't get over this one mistake she made when the real problem is that I don't listen and have never treated her right. And, let's face it, who are they more likely to believe/care about?

So Exposure seems to have gained me nothing except to ramp up her efforts to leave and get the help and support of BFF and Family. Here's the latest exchange:

[color:"purple"]BFF:
I hope that the week got a little better. I'm excited that you have an interview at Job Location No. 4, but sorry you have to wait almost another week. How long will Job No. 1 wait for your decision? I am amazed at how strong you are during all of this pressure. You're incredible and doing great. I wish you were out of the house, too, but I trust your instincts and know that you wouldn't stay if you didn't feel safe. Do you even talk to BHHFSGuy anymore?

I would LOVE to come down and visit. H and I both think it's a great idea and needed, so I will be glad to book the flight soon.

I think I would be able to stay for 3 or 4 days...I don't expect you to be free from work, so I can entertain myself one of those days. Please don't worry about me. I really want to see you and help you out as much as possible. I don't mind going down just to help you move...trust me.

Good luck with everything. I would urge you to take the Job No. 1(or just quit and take some much needed time off), but it sounds like Job No. 4 is highly promising. Hang in there and call me if you need ANYTHING![/color]

[color:"orange"]WW:
Thanks once again for the words of support and encouragement. I certainly need them, and to know I'm not completely crazy and wrong about everything. And to know I'm not going to be alone once I start over.[/color]

Is there no end to their insanity?! I went out last night and got WW an ice cream sundae and gave her a foot rub. Today I took her out to lunch. This Saturday I'll be driving her to the airport at 6 a.m. Yet BFF is asking if WW feels safe in the house or even talks to me anymore. It's like I'm living in an episode of The Twilight Zone.

She's mitigating her WRONGNESS.

Just Plan A for now and see what happens. If she moves away you'll just go to Plan B. It would be the appropriate time for it anyway. Then...her in a new city seemingly "starting over" will really, really weigh on her. Her friends won't replace you and she will likely find herself missing you. She will be pridefull at first and miss you from afar. If you've got a myspace or similiar account, leave it up for 2 weeks of Plan B then set it to private. You can bet she'll be trying to get a fix of you somehow and I've seen other WW's in Plan B look at pictures and surf the web for there no dark BH for hours.

Hopefully it will work. Either way YOU will make it.

Mr. Wondering

I don't know about you, but the day I went to plan B, I would plan FU BFF.

Oh, and if she does file, you get MORE than half of EVERYTHING due to her marital misconduct including her paying for your attorney, half her 401k, and spousal support. The consequences of divorcing you might make her think twice about what she is about to do. And again, let you lawyer handle that, you do not talk to her at all about D.

WW does not have a MySpace account, she has access to mine, though. On Tuesday evening of last week, she visited the profile of her high school ex-boyfriend who she hasn't seen or talked to since before I met her in high school. He still lives in her hometown, has two kids from a previous marriage that lasted about eight years, and is engaged to be married again. BFF had discussed him with WW in a few of their older e-mails.

Odder still is that she then did a search for 'kessel' and ended up at a profile of a 27-year-old male located in Job Location #1.

She deleted both of these visits from the browser history. I find this odd and don't know what to think of it (or if it means anything worth thinking about) and thought I'd note it here before it slipped my mind. Anybody else find this type of thing familiar?

It seems to me like she is giving up on OM#1 and is looking for another OM to fill the void. Change your myspace account password, so she can't start searching out old loves. She's in withdrawal from OM, so do your very best to make love bank deposits, so you can be that one that she attaches herself to next.

I realize I haven't posted much about what my Plan A efforts include. So here's a recap of the things I've done in the last three months:

• Scheduled a massage for her at day spa (3X)
• Attended national baseball games in 'the big city' (2X)
• Went to larger nearby city nightclub and saw nationally-recognized comedian
• Attended local baseball games (2X)
• Attended museum in larger nearby city
• Took her out to lunch 1-2X per week, dinner 3X per week
• Brought her ice cream/sundaes in the evening 2-3X per week
• Given her footrubs nightly
• Cleaned the home & backyard frequently (vacuum, sinks, shower/tub, toilets, etc.)
• Driven her to everything (other than work) including job interviews, airports, other cities
• Taken her to malls and engaged in shopping w/her
• Taken her to numerous movies in multiple cities
• Watched favorite television shows (not much in summer)
• Called her at work 1X per day to ask how things are going
• Sent flower arrangement to work
• Brought her breakfast in bed (w/flowers) on weekend when back was hurting

The fun weekend activities did kind of dry up recently for a couple of reasons. She was extremely negative on the weekend of the museum trip and nice seafood dinner on the river (found out she'd called OM the night prior). The next weekend I brought up some suggestions of things to do and she shot them down with every excuse imaginable. We did see a movie, but her back was hurting her. The movie selection has gotten dismal over the last few weeks. The next weekend was the trip to Job Location #1, where I won money playing poker and took her to a fancy restaurant that night. The next weekend (post-Exposure) her back was still hurting her so she wanted to just lay on the couch for the whole weekend and watch marathons of 'America's Next Top Model.' And this weekend she's with her family on a retreat in OR. I haven't heard a single word from her while she's been gone. I sent one text message Saturday and one Sunday (bought concert tickets) and got no response. She didn't even want to hug me when I dropped her off at the airport. I would guess she hasn't told her family about any of the above things we've done or maybe that I'm just trying to 'trick her,' which is what she tells me I'm doing.


One of my theatre friends invited me to a party and she didn't want to come along but said I should go. I did, and actually had a good time, which was surprising since I'm usually not too comfortable at parties, especially when I don't know a lot of the people.

She's been good about the money and has reimbursed me (eventually) for tickets and things. Otherwise I'd be broke after every weekend. A couple of weekends ago, I recommended we go and stay at a nearby spa/retreat for one night and she didn't want to, saying it would be 'a waste of money.' That's obviously something I'm not going to do on my own, don't have the money to do so and doubt I'd get reimbursed from her.

She bought tickets for a concert on Oct. 5, since (as she told BFF) she knows she is 'stuck' here until mid-Oct. I just bought tickets for a different concert on Oct. 10 that I would really like to see. Dunno if she'll reiumburse me for her ticket yet. The 10th seems like a long ways away.

I want to commend you on a good plan A. I think your WW thinks that you will be "friends" even after she leaves you. BFF has only reinforced that fantasy. I believe that once you go to plan B and you explain that she is "either your wife or nothing to you," she will crash hard. The question is how she reacts to that. Some WS come running back, and some are so stubborn and unwilling to admit their own failings, they blame everything on you. Some will blame you for a while until they finally crash. You won't know until you go to plan B. I would suggest that you talk with her family and let them know what your intentions are when you go to plan B (maybe send them a copy of the plan B letter). Then you just hope and pray. If she doesn't come back to the marriage, she never would have. You are risking anything by going to plan B. However, based on your plan A effort, I really think that plan B will have a profound impact on her.

I hadn't heard from WW at all since dropping her off at the airport on Saturday morning. I sent her a text message on Saturday evening saying to just call when she had a chance and one on Sunday morning to let her know I'd bought the concert tickets, but received no reply to either. Checking the cell records, she hadn't called or texted anyone while she was on the family retreat in OR.

I arrived at the airport about five minutes before her flight was scheduled to arrive, but it had gotten in early and she was already there and had just picked up her checked luggage. She resisted a hug from me and when I offered to carry her bag, she just said 'you don't need to do that.' That was soon to become the mantra of the evening.

She was very detached for the whole walk back to the car and hour-long ride back home. At first she just responded with single words to any question I asked. 'Did you have a nice time?' 'Yes' 'Did you celebrate SMIL's birthday?' 'Yes'

I asked if she had eaten dinner ('No') and if she was hungry ('Yes') but when she found out that I had eaten dinner, it was 'I guess I should've then,' and she didn't want me to get her dinner at that point. I was ready to take her to a favorite place that's on the way back, but she said 'I'm not hungry anymore. I'll just get something at home.' As if those two sentences aren't contradictory.

She noticed that I had washed the car and said 'You didn't have to do that.' Let me note that there was never an 'Awww,' preceding this sentence. I also told her I had filled the car up with gas before driving over because I wasn't confident there was enough for the round-trip. She complained that 'you didn't have to do that, there was plenty of gas.' Wow, now complaining about me buying gas for 'her' car.

She grilled me about whether or not I had made any calls while she was gone that she should know about. Whether or not I was going to blindside her again like the last time she went away for a few days.

I asked if she'd received my text messages and she said she had, but that she had poor reception there and also just didn't have time. She said she'd pay for her half of the concert tickets (They weren't cheap!).

She did not discuss if/what she had decided regarding the Job Offer that had a Tuesday morning due date.

She did say 'thanks' one time once we got back home, but was pretty much detached and guarded the rest of the evening.

I discovered she sent the following text message to BFF while she was waiting for her layover flight in the same city where BFF and H live:

[color:"green"]Howdy from AIRPORT! Sorry the layover was too short for a visit. The trip was good and much needed. Got lots of support for the next step. Miss you tons.[/color]

This morning before I left for work, I told her to have a good day and she replied with 'YOU have a good day.' I told her to let me know how her scheduled call goes this morning. ('Oh, right')

The phone call did take place at the scheduled time and lasted for 21 minutes. She hasn't contacted me.

WW called from work as usual to let me know she was coming back home for the day. I offered to pick up take-out dinners from her favorite place and she immediately agreed. We had a pleasant dinner together and watched some TV (season finale of BB8). Afterwards I asked how her workday went. She talked about it a bit, not mentioning the call to Job Location #1. So then I asked if she'd talked to the guy since today was the deadline. She said she did. Period. 'And?' She admitted that she accepted the job and the guy was surprised. I asked if he was excited and she said yes. I asked if she was excited and she said 'y'know, it's complicated.' She told him the earliest she could start was the week of Oct. 23. I asked if she would be giving her current workplace only two weeks' notice or more and she said she wasn't sure. She also mentioned something about figuring out when she'd give her notice to our landlord and that maybe I'd want to move out since I probably couldn't afford the place on my own and it was too big anyway. I asked if she'd be taking the company condo they offered and she said she probably would since it accepts pets and 'you probably don't want to take care of' our cat. Considering that I bought her that cat years ago because she complained about how lonely she was, I'm thinking, no, I don't want to take care of him. I'm sure that'll make me look like a horrible person to BFF and WW's family, but what won't.

I didn't respond much to anything she said, but she didn't really ask me any questions. After a bathroom break, I asked if she'd like some ice cream tonight, which she turned down. I offered to open the champagne that's been chilling in the fridge for a few months now (a sad reminder of happy days to me) so she could celebrate her accomplishment. Unsurprisingly, she turned that down. I reminded her that only a few months ago she was down and depressed because 'no one will call me back' and 'I'm trapped here and will never find a new job' so she should feel pretty good right now about securing a new job within just a few months. 'Shrug'

BHHFSGuy,

I've been following your story and I am sad for you. It certainly sounds like you tried your hardest and did everything you could. Your WW is acting immature and selfish. I wonder how long it will take before she regrets all she is doing and has done. My guess is about the time you find someone who will appreciate you.

It's fortunate there aren't any children involoved to complicate things more. You certainly deserve better than what she is doing to you.

LC

After our brief conversation about WW taking the job and planning to move away in October, WW didn't say much else. So I went in to the adjoining room to work on the computer. Occasionally she would ask me 'Still working?' 'Yep'

Finally, at quarter-til-midnight, after she'd fallen asleep on the couch watching TV, I said I was going to bed. 'Oh, you don't want to discuss things?' she asked. WTF? You're going to wait until 11:45 and I'm going to bed to ask if I want to discuss things? (I didn't say it like that). 'Well, you were working and I didn't want to interrupt.' Um, I was working because you stopped talking and seemed to have nothing else to say. 'Well, if you're tired and want to go to bed, go ahead.' No, I want to talk to you. 'You don't seem to be dealing with the fact that I'm taking this job and what that means.' Um, that you're leaving and don't want me to come with you. That's not news to me, I've known it for four months. 'You keep saying that you don't want to put any effort into separating, but you'll need to do some things now. Like separate the phones and the car insurance. And you'll need to figure out whether or not you're going to move out, since you can't afford to live here on your own.' Yeah, I will figure that out. 'Do you plan on staying or moving out?' I'll deal with it when I need to. Why do you care? 'Well, I still care about you.'

She said she was confused because I acted enthusiastic about her getting a new job even though that meant she would be moving away without me. I explained that I support her career decisions and always have and this was no different. But what I didn't support was anything that would break up the marriage. 'Well, my parents/family all support my decision and want me to leave you as soon as possible.' Why is that? 'Because you're emotionally abusing me and they're concerned that it'll turn to physical abuse.' I asked how I have been emotionally abusing her and she said it's because of my browbeating her into admitting she had an affair, my forcing her to read books and that I've been trying to humiliate her by calling people like her family. I noted that in the last 2+ months I haven't even brought up the A a single time. 'Well, it's just the way you make me feel.' She also complained about how my spying on her is wrong, makes her and BFF feel paranoid, and that her family agrees that I should stop the spying because of how inconsiderate it is. That I'm controlling and I've been trying to cut her off from everyone. I noted that I hadn't tried to cut her off from anyone other than OM and that she has been communicating freely with everyone (including OM). Also, if I wanted to cut her off from her family, why would I call them and ask them to call her? And why would I encourage her to visit them? 'Then why did you call them? I don't understand.'

As regards the spying, she kept reiterating how her e-mail account is not secret, it's private, and everyone has the right to privacy and I need to respect that. I brought up the whole privacy vs. secrecy argument but she didn't buy it. 'Oh, so I shouldn't be able to talk with anyone about my life?' She tried to defend BFF by saying that I had exaggerated her role to her family and BFF was just an innocent bystander. This is bogus, because I have the e-mails to prove it, so I finally went there and asked Really? BFF didn't recommend that you send me away some evening and then invite OM over and get him drunk and see what happens? 'I don't know what you're talking about or where you got that from.' Really? So you'd put your hand on a Bible and swear that she didn't write that? 'Well, I don't remember her writing that. And if she wrote that, I think I would remember it. But I don't remember that.' BTW, that was the last thing Sue said in SAA that my WW hadn't yet said. I noted how her story had just changed from 'she didn't write that' to 'I don't remember her writing that' but she insisted her story hadn't changed at all and that I was just twisting her words around and throwing them back in her face. And that was why she couldn't be honest with me is because I was just going to throw her own words back in her face.

She demanded to know if I had access to her e-mail account and I refused to answer (this would've been hard for me three months ago). I told her that she hadn't been honest with me and I knew it because of her e-mails. 'What?' That her original explanation of 'I didn't think anything could happen' and 'It was just an innocent friendship' were contradicted by e-mails in which she looked forward to my being away as an opportunity to invite him over alone. He had expressed reticence about 'What would BHHFSGuy think about this?' and she would tell him to ignore me because she could handle me, she's in charge of us and can do whatever she wants. 'Oh, so you're just the innocent victim in all this, huh?' She then started rehashing how it was all my fault and if only I had paid more attention this wouldn't have happened. See, the days where she went out to lunch with him secretly, I never asked her 'What did you do today?' and, according to her, if I had asked her, she would've told me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That her Dad agreed with her that 'this incident' was simply a symptom of an unhappy marriage. I asked how involved her Dad was with her life and our marriage to know that (he never contacts her and didn't even send a birthday card on her 30th birthday). 'Oh, so is he an enemy of the marriage, too?' I didn't go there, but let's be honest. If he's encouraging his daughter to leave the marriage, he can't be a friend of the marriage, can he? Sorry, that's too logical, I guess. I brought up the fact that she had written to BFF within this year that 'Everything is fine between BHHFSGuy and me. Nothing could break us up except for another guy...and that's not going to happen.' Of course, she doesn't remember writing that. 'I think I would remember if I wrote that.'

I noted that I had been working hard to meet her ENs and fix all the things she has complained were the true source of her undiscovered-until-now unhappiness. 'Why do you even want to work on this? Why do you still want to be with me?' I told her that I had made a commitment to love and cherish her for better or worse and that this was the for worse period. 'So you're just doing this because of some legal contract?' I said I knew we could be happy together because we were once before and that so many other couples have successfully recovered from infidelity.

She continued to reiterate that OM had 'nothing to do' with any of this and 'it's not about him.' So why not stop contacting him, then? 'I told you. Because I want to end things on my own terms.' And what are those terms? 'For him to answer my questions. You wouldn't give me a chance to do that, you had to go and contact OMGF and ruin it all' And, like I asked you four months ago, what if he doesn't answer your questions? 'I don't know' Good plan, then. I told her she needs to figure out what's more important to her, getting answers from him or being married to me. 'I just want to go and be by myself so I can figure things out' Oh, so being by yourself means you wouldn't contact OM, right? 'No, I'll contact him, I'll contact you, I'll contact whoever I want. It's my life.' She asked me if I would just hate her forever if she left and I told her that if she left it would be her choice, not mine, and that I wouldn't be there for her anymore. I didn't want to tip my hand to Plan B, but also didn't want to imply that I would still be hanging on/around.

She reiterated that the IC had suggested we separate and I asked her why she hadn't pursued going to the IC to talk about that. She insisted I had agreed to call him and make arrangements and I told her I couldn't have agreed to that, because I don't know her work schedule. 'Oh. OK.' I asked if she cared so much about seeing the IC again why she hadn't asked me about it or called him herself. 'I've been too busy with all the job interviews and work. I guess I can find time to call him, although it'll probably take me, like, five calls to schedule something.' Oh, God, not five calls. 'See, that's what I'm talking about, you just throw everything I say back in my face.' I told her that if someone said she could fix her marriage with just five phone calls, would she respond the same way, i.e. Five phone calls?! Sheesh!

She insisted that she has, in fact, been 'trying really hard' to work on the marriage. I asked her what actions she had taken in that regard. 'I haven't left.' Well, if just showing up is working really hard on the marriage, then I guess I've been working really hard on it for years.

She asked why I haven't 'had it out' with BFF since I seem to know so much and I explained that BFF isn't interested in being honest with me or confronting the situation. She asked why I've been fake nice with BFF and pretending to want her to come visit. I told her that I've invited BFF to help the marriage by suggesting fun things we can do together but BFF won't respond to those e-mails. I'm perfectly willing to have BFF visit if we do fun things together. WW said BFF 'still wants to be friends with you, but I know you have issues.' Now WW says BFF might not come visit after all...

It was a pretty long discussion and I know I stumbled a few times because I was either sarcastic, tried to use reason or raised my voice reflexively. But I felt like it was time to put my foot down about how I know that she has manipulated me and has not/is not being honest and I will simply not accept it. That she has a clear choice to make and cannot have the best of both worlds. That I will not 'be there for her' after she leaves. I also tried to communicate the key messages about how I'm working to protect/preserve/build the marriage and fight against things that destroy the marriage. I gave up my key information source, as she has now changed the password on her e-mail account, but I think I know enough now that it doesn't truly matter. I'm trying to get ready for Plan B, but have to wait until next week for a chance to meet with my lawyer and explore my legal options/financial steps.

Looks like you're in a pretty difficult situation.

Reasoning will not work with an active WS. BTDT. I suggest avoiding it. Don't ask them for answers to questions that you can find out by other means, because it's quite likely that you're just being baited into an argument (the comment from her about her family "supporting her decision" comes to mind immediately) and their answers will be fogbabble anway. Remember, this is the time that you're supposed to be in Plan A...

Arguing with them about their lies is probably not going to work either. When you know she's being untruthful with you, let her know that you prefer to stop talking because you have difficulty believing her, and withdraw as graciously as possible from the conversation - that's better than remaining and being exposed to her lies.

Don't argue with her anymore. You've made your point. The only thing that I will add is that you still love her, the door is still open (for now), and you believe that things will eventually work out and she will be worth the struggle, but if not, you know you will be just fine. Then go to plan B and let her see how many ENs she was relying on you for.

BTW, that stuff about her family pushing for it is a bunch of BS she is using to justify her actions. She knows that you will never confront her family about what she accused them of saying. Either that or she has completely lied to them about you as well and they've fallen for it.

Come to think of it, I would move out and go to plan B before she leaves; that way you don't have to help her move and you can take what you want before she has the movers pack it all up and send it to her new locations. I think you've done enough plan A and you need to get to plan B before she makes anymore love bank withdrawals.

BHHFS,

I hate to say that this is as predictable as it is....but after reading SAA, you already know that. I think you need to learn some "reverse babble". One of our most beloved and experienced posters, Orchid, created this language to talk to her fogged WH....but many of us have employed it. Rather than getting defensive, explaining etc....it's great to have another way to reply.

So here's a link: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=019927

Your wayward wife is deep in that mindset....so, like Sue, it may take her a while to wake up....if ever. She may never come back....but I think that Plan A and B are the best way of keeping your dignity and addressing the problems that created vulnerability.

She's playing games....very ugly. She offers no information, so when you withdraw she accuses you of not being interested. It's all about rationalization....don't fall for it. It's all babble....and when you learn to babble-back....you'll get to see her confusion.

I agree that snooping has yielded all you need to know at this point. Her acusations about emotional abuse are laughable. You're doing fine....and remember Plan B is for YOU...not her. Use that peaceful time of detachment to remove yourself from her chaos, manipulation and pain. No matter what happens....you'll benefit.

Secure your finances and prepare to go dark. I'm going to find Mortarman's "art of war thread"....you'll like it.

One of the best pieces of advice I got was "Don't run interference for his conscience." You aren't running interference for her conscience. You are sticking to facts. If she could gt you to blow up at her, then she could take an image of that scene and store it as a memory so that she could justify the affair and divorce. She may want to provoke you because you don't seem to have given her that image yet.

Cherishing

I'm pretty certain it's the latter. I've been with her for more than a decade and it took me a few months to figure out she was manipulating me. Since they have had little regular contact with her (FIL didn't even send a card on her 30th birthday) I'm sure they simply have no idea that she could possibly be misleading them.

She's a very smart, level-headed person (normally... I think) so she spins a very convincing story that any rational person could be taken in by. It helps that FIL was pre-disposed to the idea that there must have been problems in the marriage to cause her to have an affair. And he's so stubborn that he won't back down from a position EVER. He once tried to convince me that a Yield sign had four sides. When I produced evidence days later that it did NOT, he then said 'I never said it had four sides. I said it had three.' WW has told me that he has never ONCE said 'I'm sorry' or 'I was wrong.'

And since he requested I tell her I exposed, rather than anyone else confronting her first, it gave her plenty of time to think about what she could say to them. Here's my guess based on what she's said to me and BFF:

'I've been trying really hard to deal with this, but it's just been so hard for me. And I feel like BHHFSGuy gets upset whenever I say anything, so I can't talk to him. He asked me to read all these books and shoved all this stuff in my face, but it doesn't have anything to do with me because those are all about 'affairs' and I didn't have an affair. I don't even know how my ex-co-worker feels about me, so how can it be? I haven't even seen him since he left my workplace. This one-time occurrence obviously happened because I've been so unhappy in the marriage for years because he doesn't listen to me and he only loves me because I'm beautiful and he likes my money and he's lazy and he doesn't pay any attention to me and leaves me alone all the time. So I've been feeling miserable and now I feel even worse because he makes me feel guilty and humiliated and he enjoys punishing me and wants to hold this over me forever. I just can't stay with someone that can't get over this. And after I found out he was spying on me, I don't think I can ever trust him again. I'm paranoid to contact anyone because he wants to control me and cut me off from all my friends.'

Considering that none of her family members has contacted me since she spoke to each of them after Exposure, I have to assume they do, in fact, support her decision to leave me, at least FIL. And no one in the family will ago against him. I had hope that SMIL, who has actually dealt with infidelity could bring some insight, but since she's not the biological mother, there's obviously a deference to FIL.

Don't assume anything. Make a followup call, or send them a letter that mentions the infidelity, but concentrates on your willingness to recover your M.

Tried to continue my Plan A efforts today. Told her to have a good day before I left for work. Called her in the late afternoon at her workplace just to chat about how her day was going. She couldn't talk too much since she's mainly been thinking about when to give her notice/contact the landlord/etc. But I let her know what I was thinking about making for dinner and that I'd pick up the missing pieces at the store on my way home. When WW got home, she commented that it smelled good. Hmmm, that doesn't sound like WW. She hung out in the kitchen while I finished up. When I spilled a little bit while dishing it up, she actually cleaned it up. And when I burned my fingers a little by mistakenly grabbing the baking pan, she expressed concern and then said it was a very understandable mistake to make. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Who are you and what have you done with WW? Even before the A, I would've expected 'Why'd you touch it? That wasn't very smart' and later on when my fingers hurt 'Why are you complaining? It was your own mistake.' Now, I know after reading other threads that I should not read too much into this and take it as some kind of sign, especially since WW asked me tonight for landlord's number to let him know she'd be moving out in October. But it did give me some hope that there's still good W in there. I needed that, since earlier today I was a little concerned that after last night I maybe had no love left to protect anymore. Gonna have some Ben & Jerry's and watch Top Chef.

Oh, and WW did make an appointment with IC for next Thursday morning. I'm looking forward to her finding out that the separation she's been so excited about him telling me about requires that she have no contact with OM. Hmm, she just told me last night that she couldn't do that... Oh, and then I can get back my copy of SAA, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think she's waffling. If you hold steady, I think she'll come back to you. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" in this instance would mean that a committed and caring husband is worth more than somebody full of promises who doesn't have a lot of regard for marital commitment.
Cherishing

She's waffling. She doesn't want to lose you completely from her life, so she's going to try and be nice to you as she leaves you, so you're there if she changes her mind.

I've been preparing to implement Plan B and today I started writing my Plan B Letter. I started with the sample letter provided in SAA, but had to modify it considerably based on our situation. Please give me your suggestions as to what I should change:

Dear WW,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OM possible. I foolishly overlooked the signs of your unhappiness and was ignorant of my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I neglected to understand the importance of open and honest communication and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end all communications with OM permanently.

Until then, I will not see you, talk to you or communicate with you in any form. Any required communications such as financial arrangements should be given to INTERMEDIARY (contact information is included below). INTERMEDIARY will pass the relevant information on to me and provide you with a response, if necessary.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured since discovering your relationship with OM. I still love you, but I simply cannot bear to see or speak to you while this situation continues.

When you are willing to permanently end all contact with OM, make efforts to prevent further infidelity and express remorse for your actions, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are contacting OM.

Love,
BHHFSGuy

Very beautiful and touching. A Plan B letter that will give her pause. A Plan B letter that will make her think -- what am I doing?

Cherishing

I'm not a plan B expert, but this paragraph has got to go. You are blaming yourself for her affair. I would just focus on the following main points

1) You still love her, and do not want a divorce.
2) You will be able to forgive her.
3) You are a changed man and will do whatever it takes to make your marriage work if she gives it another chance.
4) Continued contact with her will hurt you if she is not willing to work on the marriage, so respect your wishes of NC.
5) She is either your W or nothing to you, you will not be friends.
6) She needs to agree to the conditions you decide before you will talk to her again.
7) The door is still open...for now.

Well, not quite. It's the last line that's a bit ambiguous. It's Ok (and I'd actually advise it) to take partial responsibility for the breakdown of the M. I'd suggest rewriting the last line to reflect this, and also reflect that he's taking no responsibility for her choice to have an A.

BHHFSGuy,

Excellent. I wouldn't change anything in your letter except the first sentence to read like this:

"I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OM possible, although I take no responsibility for your choice to have an affair."

When are you plannig to give her this Plan B letter???

Until then, you are in Plan A.

I just came up with an idea to help you finish Plan A strong.

Part of her mean attitude is an attempt to rationalize and justify her affair and get you to react but another part of it is perhaps to keep you at bay and let you down easy. She sees you being nice and she doesn't want to give you any hope and hurt you more. She KNOWS she's hurt you but is doing everything she can to not think about it.

You being nice to her is confusing and frustrating and, remember, she WANTS to hate you.

I was just thinking that for the next couple of weeks you ACKNOWLEDGE she is leaving (not approve of it) and seemingly accept that this is it...the end of the marriage. You approach her with a seeming cease-fire. You've been together 13 years and married for 8 of those...why not just try to end it on a high note. She thinks your marriage is over and you just agree that's probably for the best anyway. Neither one of you are satisfied with the marriage. Put yourself in the "marriage is over" boat with her and let's just try to end this better than any other marriage in history has ended.

No relationship talk. No more "trying". No more snooping. Just fun. Say things like "I don't want to look back years from now and regret not enjoying your company for these last few weeks. I want to look back fondly on our marriage" and/or "I don't want to look back on our long relationship and only remember the sting of the last 6 months...WE can end this right".

Many waywards will buy into this. It's part of the fantasy that they can keep you around as a friend or a back up plan.

Then...for the next few weeks literally enjoy her company as best you can. The more conversation you have, reminiscing (sp?) old memories, friends, and places the better. ACT like you accept the finality of it. KNOW that the peace of Plan B is forthcoming. There is no reason to be or act hurt the next few weeks. You've got time for that later in Plan B. The more needs you meet the more likely Plan B will be intolerable (she will hopefully miss you and ending on a high note will make withdrawal from you more difficult) for her but that's not your problem. She either gets it or not. Either way ... you, soon, will be moving on with your life. She'll either catch up or remain in the dust.

Mr. Wondering

Have been continuing my Plan A efforts, although it's difficult because I'm so behind with work that it's eating into my home life (because my home life has been eating into work). Yesterday I took her out for our weekly lunch. It was so filling that we weren't hungry for dinner, so we just ended up eating popcorn and watching the premiere of one of our longstanding favorite TV shows. However, I did have to leave the room when 'The Office' came on. It's her favorite show because she sees herself as Pam (visits the actress's MySpace page secretly) and OM as Jim. Guess who that makes me?

This morning I made arrangements for WW to get a massage tomorrow afternoon, as it has been a month since her last one. I sent her a TM confirming her appt. and received the following TM response:

[color:"green"] Thanks! You got more done before I even got into the office. BTW, I am using the T9 text setting and you were right about it being easy once you get used to it.[/color]

I just want to say that her saying 'you were right' makes me feel good, even if it's about something as mundane as text message settings.

"You were right, Luke. Tell your sister you were right..."

Sorry Pam (WW), but in real life Jim (OM) is staying in Stamford and sticking with Karen (OMGF). Pam (WW) will go back to Roy (you) as long as Roy (you) doesn't smash up a bar and take a swing at Jim (OM). Do you follow?

Seriously, just hang in there until she gets ready to leave. I would find yourself a new place right before she leaves (shows you might be moving on) and go to plan B when she leaves (but don't help her move). She will probably file for D after she's gone, so get yourself a good, tough lawyer, and tell him to drag it out as long as possible, and have him fight for as much as possible (that way it will delay things further as she will continue to try and negotiate less, and you will make it financially painful to leave you). Your attorney (not you, let him do all the work, that way you can blame it all on him) should fight for MORE than half (due to marital misconduct) of everything (household possessions, savings, her 401k, cars, etc) as well as full spousal support (according to the law) and pay for your attorney. This will not hurt your chance for reconciliation, but it will make leaving you more difficult. Even if it doesn't work, you at least got some compensation for the destruction she has caused to your life. Don't let her manipulate you or guilt you into getting a penny less than what the law dictates you are entitled to.

WW and I met with the IC this morning for the joint session. You might remember that I was originally dreading this. After I found out the specifics of his structured/therapeutic separation, I started looking forward to it. This is Part 1 of the transcript of the session. It's not perfect, but it's a lot more accurate than a recounting from my memory will be.

IC: OK, tell me; what's our agenda today?

WW: Um, well, last time I came in here, you said you wanted to talk about therapeutic separation. As an option? So I guess I need to know more about that.

IC: So you want to know if a separation would help or hinder?

WW: Yeah, just how it would help.

IC: Mm-hmm. OK. BHHFSGuy?

Me: Well, um, I'm here because WW mentioned it to me and you had asked if I could come so you could discuss it with the both of us. So I told her I'd be willing to listen to you. My goal is to protect/preserve/save the marriage, so if someone has a plan to help do that, I'm willing to listen to that plan.

(LONG PAUSE)

IC: So, what's the state of the marriage today?

WW: Not great. Um, I told you before that I have been interviewing for jobs and since they are newspaper jobs, anything I take requires me to move. And I have decided to accept a job in LOST WAGES, CA. So that means I'll have to move there. I was just thinking maybe that would be good for us to have some space to kind of think things over and I just feel like maybe if I'm just by myself and have only myself to rely on and myself to ponder and I'm removed from BHHFSGuy, then I can know for sure if I want to keep working on things. Like depriving myself, maybe? Just because I'm really, really confused about things and what to do. I even have a lot of doubt about taking this job and moving. And I'm just not certain what is the best way to find those answers for myself.

IC: When you hear her dilemma, what's your thoughts?

Me: I'm aware that she's been looking for work, to take a job elsewhere, to go and not be with me anymore.

WW: Not 'anymore'

Me: OK, well, to go away and not be with me. I guess I won't put the word 'anymore' on there. That is something that she has been wanting to do for some time now, since even before I found out about the affair she wanted to do that. I understand that's what she wants to do. There's clearly some conflict in her mind about 'am I making the right choice or not?' I know there's still hope for us because of that, because there are feelings still there. I believe that those feelings can be fully recovered if we both work on it. I've been trying my best to fix problems of myself and try and try to avoid repeating annoying behaviors that I have and making changes to myself and my lifestyle to be a better, more attractive person and to attempt to resolve some of the issues that we've had with the marriage. So I think that I disagree with her in the sense that she says it would help if she left. I don't necessarily agree with that opinion. But it's not really my choice to make.

IC: So your disagreement with the position is that if she separates ... what's your opinion?

Me: I don't truly believe that she feels that separating is a way to work on the marriage. Because her actions and her words haven't always been in sync with each other over the past four months and sometimes even her words and her other words have not been in sync with each other. So I'm not fully trusting or believing that the intentions behind certain actions are the same as what the spoken words of those intentions are.

IC: So there's kind of a double meaning or message?

Me: I don't know if it's a double meaning. I don't necessarily believe that it's intentional. Maybe it's a subconscious thing. But if I ask her 'What actions have you taken that will give me some sort of evidence that you are interested in working on the marriage?' the answer I got was 'Well, I haven't left you.' That's it. So if that's the one thing she's done as an action that would be working on the marriage, then how could leaving me also be an action to work on the marriage? In and of itself, it's a total contradiction. Either staying is working on the marriage or leaving is, but they can't both be working on the marriage. I don't quite grasp that contradiction.

WW: Y'know, I'm just... The context of when you asked me that question was you were basically yelling at me and then you expect me to give answers instantly. When I thought about it later, I thought about how I did that questionnaire for you (ENQ). I came here, which you know was very difficult for me. And then when you say my words are contradicting, are you referring to e-mails in my personal account that you have broken into and read and are now throwing back in my face? Things like that. And I don't understand where you ... It seems like you just think I'm a liar all the time. And now you're saying I was planning to leave you before this summer? That's not true. You know I'm unhappy with my job and ... y'know ... TRANSMISSION GARBLED ... all at once. It's like, I don't enjoy my job. I can't... It just seems like everything is a mess right now and it's at the point where I can't keep existing like this. The nature of my career is to change my job, is to change everything. You just seem to be operating on this belief that everything is part of this grand scheme of mine to just leave you and it's not. But it's just... I'm just afraid, I don't want to get to a point where I hate you, like where my parents are now, my mom and my dad. And if I have to keep having these arguments with you where I have to ask you to please stop going into my e-mail and reading messages that are between me and my friend and calling my family behind my back and telling them all this stuff and things like that. It's just hard to live with you when you're doing these things. It hurts me a lot. It's like you're violating me, my thoughts.

Me: I'm sorry that you feel that way. In terms of the 'context,' you said I was yelling at you and I don't believe that I was yelling at you-

WW: Well, we weren't having a rational conversation. It wasn't like we were sitting on the couch and you said 'So, WW, tell me. What have you been doing to work on the marriage?' It was this sarcastic, superior, like 'I'm doing everything, you're doing nothing, you're ruining, this is all your fault.' These are the things you said to me around that question you asked me, like 'you're ruining everything, this is all your fault. Have you even done anything? Tell me one thing you've done.' (I just want to note that I never said she's ruining everything nor that this is all her fault)

Me: First, you did accuse me of yelling at you...

WW: You were raising your voice. I classify raising a voice as yelling. As someone who's been yelled at a lot (her biological M)

Me: I'm sorry that I raised my voice. It is a tendency. I'm trying to work on that as best I can. I agree that it wasn't really a rational conversation in the sense that you presented me with seemingly irrational things to deal with. I don't bring up things, you bring them up and I'm going to respond. And you accused me first of acting as though you weren't doing anything. So I asked 'What are you doing?' I do appreciate you filling out the ENQ and I accept that. I will continue to express that I appreciate that. As far as the 'it's not true that you weren't going to leave beforehand' you specifically wrote 'I'm going to start looking for a job because that will give me a good reason to leave.' That's what you wrote before I knew about anything. So I have to ask, who am I supposed to believe? What you wrote or what you're saying now? You wrote in the e-mail 'I'm going to start looking for a job. I've decided I'm going to do that. I think it'd be the best thing for me to do is to find a new job and move away. Because finding a new job would give me a good reason to go away.'

WW: Do you have copies of these e-mails? Because you have them memorized and it disturbs me. And you think it's OK. That's what really disturbs me. You think it's OK to take those things from me.

Me: I think that it's OK for me to know what's going on with my marriage. That is my business. That's my life. If someone is going to be having a conversation about something they're going to be doing to me, I would like to know what that is. Especially if my own W is planning to do things and not tell me what she's planning to do.

WW: It's not a plan. It's just I'm so confused and messed up and lost. It's just... I don't know what to do. You seem to think I have a plan.

Me: You keep saying 'you seem to think this, you seem to think that' and you're kind of projecting these things that 'I seem to think'

WW: You get upset with me when I don't remember these things I wrote. It's like... I don't. Thoughts are just coming out of me that just change constantly. Like 'I'm going to turn down the job offer, I'm going to take it back. Maybe I shouldn't go'... I don't know. I know you're trying to change and you're doing nice things and all that and I do appreciate it (WW appreciates my Plan A efforts!) but it just gets so confusing when, like, I told you, you do them and then two days later, it's 'Hey, while you were off at this job interview I called your sisters and your parents and told them you're having an affair.'

Me: The reason that I did that was to-

WW: When I told you I didn't want to talk with them about what was going on.

Me: I understand that you don't want to talk with your family about what's going on, but that isn't helping this situation.

WW: Like you not listening to me or respecting my wishes? And I know you think that you don't agree with anything I think, so it's like why you do it anyway, but to continue to not, y'know, it just seems like everything I say, I'm just talking to a wall, like 'fine that's what you think, but I know better and I'm honest and you're a liar, so that's how it goes.'

Me: You're concern is I'm not respecting your wishes. And it kind of goes back to 'What are your wishes?'

WW: I don't know, that's the thing. It's like you want all these final answers and I don't know.

Me: I haven't asked for final answers.

WW: You act like me going to LOST WAGES, CA is like, 'that's the end of everything.' You said 'you leaving is destroying the marriage' and I don't consider it that. And when IC explained the therapeutic separation is like time apart and you just focus on yourself and there's no contact, it's like, yeah, maybe I'm being so stupid and stubborn and maybe it's just I deserve to be deprived of your presence so it can slap me in the face and I can wake up and see that this is what I want (I consider that previous sentence the most interesting of all). But, like I told you, right now it's hard and I'm getting wary and scared of what's going to happen next, who else you're going to call.

Me: Why are you concerned about that?

WW: Because it's humiliating to me, and I've told you this.

Me: If it's humiliating to you, then why won't you stop contacting him?

WW: (Big sigh) Because. I already told you why. It is not about trying to run off with him or get back together with him. It's just... I'm just the type of the person that feels like I've been paying for this mistake, which is still not a three-year A, I don't know where you get that from, and I'm the only one being held accountable and there are two people involved and when is he going to be held accountable? It just pisses me off. I hate that it's like I'm being screwed over and someone else gets away with it. That stuff never sits well with me. I TOLD you this. I TOLD you that's why I can't let it go. It's not like I'm calling him every day or something.

Me: Whether it's daily or weekly or biweekly or monthly, it's still a problem. And you said something that was kind of contradictory again-

WW: I'm sorry I don't map out my sentences.

Me: I'm just trying to point out that you say I don't respect your wishes, but then you say you don't know what your wishes are. Then you have contradictory wishes, where you say you want him to be held accountable, you want him to have some punishment, and yet when I contacted his girlfriend you were saying I shouldn't have done that because now his girlfriend is going to want to punish him. And you don't want that.

WW: Yes, but now he's not going to talk to me. It's something that I need for myself, not you doing it to make yourself feel better. Fine, you got what you wanted out of it and now I can never get what I want. (I sense a lot of selfishness there)

Me: I haven't gotten what I wanted out of it, which is for the two of you to stop-

WW: I'm tired. I'm just tired of it being all about this. This is not what it's about. He is not the issue for me at all.

Me: So, again, if he's not the issue, why do you keep contacting him? Why do you refuse to stop contacting him?

WW: I just told you why. Because it's something I need to do for myself.

Me: Well, IC, you asked us about the state of our marriage and I would say this conversation is pretty much the same conversation we've had repeatedly.

IC: So this could be like just another conversation that's similar to conversations you've had?

Me: I'd say it's the exact same conversation we have every couple of weeks.

IC: And so when the conversation starts, continues, how does it end?

WW: It just kind of ends. I get tired of going in circles. He thinks one thing, I think another. We just do not agree. There's also the other issue of BFF, which I just do not understand at all.


OK, that seems like a good place to stop for now. I will try and transcribe more later. But interesting nonetheless, right?

Did you notice how the only person who has brought up the separation is WW? I actually don't believe that IC asked me to come in and discuss it with the two of them. I think he brought it up and WW asked if I could come to a session and hear about it. That plan isn't working (sorry, I forgot, she said she doesn't have a plan)

I think somewhere in there you needed to say, "You are either my wife or NOTHING to me. There will be no friendship. I am not worried about you hating me if we divorce because I am not interested in being friends. I love you very much, and I very much want you to be my wife for the rest of our lives, but there is only full commitment or nothing at all. It's completely black and white. There is no gray area. I will not continue to be disrespected by my wife continuing her relationship with the man she cheated on me with. I would expect the same from her if I were the one to stray. It's just not fair for the other person."

I've heard Dr. Harley say that men can compete head on with affair partners but women cannot. Your WW seems to be in a lot of pain. I would suggest, "I care about you and want you to be happy. I think I can change so that you are happy with me."

What sort of man would go after a married woman? She probably realizes that her best chance for happiness is to stay with you, but her heart and mind are in conflict. She doesn't seem to be considering the impact of her actions on you. If you give her time and keep on showing care, I doubt she'll move. I suspect she'll figure out that caring for you is the best way for her to be happy.

Sometimes it just amazes me how different men and women are in handling affairs. You are pointing out the illogic of her sentence structures. She must be depressed and horrified at her own actions and trying to pin on you the blame for her own choices. Be gentle with her. She has to come to the realization all by herself that nothing you have done or ever could do would justify an affair. And that may take time. It may never occur, and yet she still could be a wonderful and caring wife who learned her lesson that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

I have to say that I really admire how you are handling this. As a woman, I definitely would support Dr. Harley's views that women cannot compete. I absolutely fell apart, for years. I bet the whole experience took 10 -15 years off my life because of my reaction which lasted from before the affair started until about four years after it ended. I could not have done what you are doing. Your wife has got to at some point look at you and wonder what she is giving up for an uncertain future in LOST WAGES, CA.

Just don't focus on being logical. Focus on care. "I care about you and want you to be happy."

Cherishing

My advice, get another counselor. If your transcription is correct, he let the train wreck and wreck again during the session.

Safety first is the rule of communication. Neither of you were safe to hear or be heard.

Not connecting in communication widens the crack into a canyon, IMO, in marriages.

Did you ask MC directly if your assumption about the session was accurate or not?

Did you really hear what your WW was saying? Could you summarize her stuff without refuting, negating, judging or discounting?

Did you hear your own stuff...hear yourself...well?

LA

I agree with LA...there was NO guidance given in that transcript. It sounds like he just let the two of you sit there and fight...it didn't sound like he did anything to steer the conversation or to protect each other during it.

Get an MC who can do more than just sit there and listen.

You have only read the first part of the session. There are probably at least three parts. I haven't had time to transcribe the rest. I think your opinion of the counselor will change after you read what he had to say. This was the first time that he had us both together and I think he wanted to get some information about how we were interacting and what we say when the spouse is present.

I'm trying to separate W from WW. I heard a lot of fog-talk about how she just wants privacy and this all has nothing to do with OM and it's not an A. But there did seem to be honest reflection about how she is confused and doesn't know what she wants.

This is part of the reason I'm transcribing it. So I can listen to myself and what I'm saying and how I'm responding and communicating. And get the opinions of you all on what I'm saying/doing right and wrong.

BHH,

What I said about the counselor is because we went into MC must the same way you did...and our counselor made sure he was in control of the sessions. By example, he taught us how to set boundaries, do boundary enforcements...he was active in our sessions and emphasized communication in real time.

For instance, when your WW spoke about her confusion, indecision...and you came back with your viewpoint...our MC would have stopped you and asked, "Please summarize what you heard her say first, confirm or clarify, okay? You won't lose your own points...they're yours. They'll be there."

Becoming very present, for clarity's sake, is more advancing than the back and forth I saw in your transcription so far. I didn't see where your MC established ground rules...and the open-ended and conflict-generating question he/she asked boggles my mind...

Could be all this was what you heard. Or did your MC give you a copy of the tape of the session?

I forgot to say a huge THANK YOU! for transcribing your session...I believe it does wonders for building marriages and I believed you were doing it for your own clarity. My questions were to your experience as it was happening, and then, re-happening as you posted your transcription.

I'm not gonna tell you what you're doing right or wrong...I'm going to ask you if you are striving first to understand, then be understood?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Please attend every MC session...that's standing for your marriage. Switching from acting based on possible outcome...to acting from your goal to save your marriage. Big difference. Feel free to challenge your MC to give you his/her best. State, "I don't feel safe right now." when you don't. "I don't feel heard." Whatever it is...open your mouth and own it, aloud.

Doesn't mean no one is listening or someone is attacking. It's informing (which is sharing) your stuff.

You can't convince someone of anything. They choose to change their beliefs. Make sure of your own. Be really sure what you're believing, wishing, hoping, expecting and praying for. Takes awareness for clarity, not rightness.

LA

LA-

I just re-read...and remembered. This isn't their MC...this is his WW's IC.

So of course he's not there to help the marriage. He's there for HER...not THEM. Big distinction most of the time.

Owl...good catch. Oh. Ah. Oops.

My bad.

Our MC did MC/IC...which was awesome. That was my filter in my own way.

Sorry, BHH. I look forward to reading the rest of the transcription as you get it posted.

LA

Here's Part 2 (of 3?) of our session with the counselor. For those that haven't read my whole thread (I guess it is kind of long now) the counselor is one I sought out for individual counseling. After three sessions, WW agreed to come see him individually and did so for three sessions. WW then told me that IC wanted to talk to the two of us about a 'therapeutic separation.' I actually believe it was WW's idea to bring me in for a joint session, rather than IC's.

WW: There's also the other issue of BFF, which I just don't understand at all. But I guess that's between the two of you (BFF and Me).

IC: He slept with her?

WW & Me: NO!

WW: No, he says she encouraged me to have this so-called affair and he's like, calling her an enemy of the marriage now.

Me: She encouraged WW to invite this other man out for lunch/dinner/drinks, encouraged her to get me out of the house so he would feel more comfortable about coming over to be with her.

WW: (shakes head)

Me: She's shaking her head, but these are, in fact, true statements.

WW: What, from e-mails you stole from me? Again. I just don't understand how you can get on this high horse and say 'You're dishonest with me, I can't trust you.' You broke into my e-mail account and read... a lot, it seems like. It doesn't seem like an appropriate response saying you don't trust somebody to then go behind their back and go to their private e-mail account.

Me: What I consider an inappropriate response to trying to build trust is to lie. And I asked you many times to just tell me the truth. 'It's OK, just tell me the truth.' And you continued to try and shield her from her own words-

WW: I didn't think it was an issue we needed to deal with.

Me: When you lie to me, that's an issue. When you say one thing and it's not true, then I don't know when you ARE telling the truth. Even just one time is a problem. But when it continues over weeks... When I say 'Does BFF know about this? Just tell me the truth.' You said 'No, she doesn't have anything to do with this.' Well, that's not true. She has been conversing with WW about this for a long time. And has known about this other person. And, again, encouraged her, 'Here's some things you can do. Maybe go snowboarding with him. Do this or that with him. Invite him out to such and such.' She was involved with this. Even after, she has continued to say 'Don't stay with BHHFSGuy if you don't love him. Don't settle for him. Just do whatever feels right for you and everyone else's feelings don't matter. Just think about yourself. That's the most important thing.' So I don't qualify that as a friend of the marriage because she never said 'you should work on your marriage,' or 'I really think you should see a marriage counselor,' or 'it's more important that you not talk to the other guy to help your marriage heal.' So she's not a friend of the marriage. There's nothing she's done that's helped our marriage.

WW: I'm not doing every single thing she says. I'm not like some mindless robot.

Me: I don't hold you responsible for what she says. I hold HER responsible for what she says. You haven't wanted me to do that. You said you were concerned about 'Well, I don't want you two to not be friends.' What's more important is there's truth & honesty, not 'well maybe you guys can still be friends as long as you don't know what she's saying to me.' That isn't going to work. What's more important to me is our marriage than my friendship with BFF. Because her actions are not the actions of a friend. To me. And she has been unwilling to talk with me about this at all.

WW: It doesn't seem like you asked her to.

Me: I have asked her a number of questions and she has not responded to them.

WW: Like 'I think you're an enemy of the marriage. Please respond.'

Me: That's not a question.

WW: Or something like that, I don't know.

Me: I shared with her my feelings and she completely shut me out on that. And she's been unwilling to ask me how I'm doing. 'What can I do to help you out?' Someone can say 'I care about you' but it's the actions they take that are stronger, in my opinion. You can tell me a million times 'I want to be your friend.' OK, here's a way you can be my friend. Stop telling my wife to contact this other person. Stop giving my wife advice on how best to continue her relationship with the affair partner.

WW: He's not an affair partner.

IC: If I could jump in and clarify something. Both of you have sought outside help to assist in making sense of your marriage or of yourself in it.

WW: It's just, for me, somebody to talk to. She and I have been best friends for 20 years. It's just what we do. She tells me about her marriage, as well. I don't consider it some taboo thing to do for us to discuss our relationships or to tell her about my friend or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no idea what to think at this point.

IC: I would support you in clarifying. I think that's huge. Because when you're involved in this kind of mishmash it doesn't mean you're crazy. It's like temporary insanity. There's too much confused fallout that doesn't give the marriage the best chance. Because there's no logic. There's opinions. So I guess one of the things I consider even myself as a source of consultation. You both have come individually and kinda done some hard work at pouring out your soul. And it's not easy. What injures a marriage and then the recovery from it is a huge trauma and both of you have been traumatized. The way you think about it and the way you believe about it keeps the trauma going or stops the merry-go-round, the process, so that some healing can occur or calmness can occur so that you can think later. And part of what happens... usually what I see in dealing with a lot of marriages and what I consult about because I'm very interested and I'm not a Divorce Counselor. I don't have on my title 'Divorce, Family, Trauma Counselor.' And if there's any glimmer of hope, even one ounce or breath of hope then I would love to pounce on that and expand it. There's some things in the process of healing that further injures and continues destabilization. If you don't get to stabilization, you can't go to the next step about whether to go to recovery or not. That's just a statement. It's a personal belief that I have.

From the science, some of what we know about successful marriages with 95 percent certainty who will be divorced in two years without them saying a word. Did you know that?

And part of that research comes out of the University of Washington. John Gottman and his crew have been studying marriages for a lot of years. And empirically they can tell us some things that people might have been subjectively writing about. But one of the issues that seems to be... There's two studies on marriage that I trust very greatly because it's not just a person's opinion and it's not mine. It's not an opinion that just because I've been in the business 30 years and I'm over here in this crowd that thinks about marriages this way or that I use this particular book or this particular source. There's two scientific studies that are long-term. One, out of the University of Denver, Scott Stanley and Howard Markman and then the principal investigators have been investigating successful marriages for over 30 years. Out of the University of Washington, Gottman and, before his death, Neil Jacobsen. They have been doing long-term studies for years. They both come up with a similar kind of conclusion about what makes marriages succeed and fail.

They both come to some kind of an agreement that there can be issues or environmental stressors or outside activity that harms and leads to a body feeling escalated. Without people even saying a word. You can know when your heart rate's going up and you can know in a conversation. I don't know about you, but I'm just walking in here today and I want you to know that my body is tensing. This is, from a clinician's point of view, this is not the easiest kind of thing to deal with, is what's going on in your marriage. So your stress has an effect on me. I'm not saying that I take your stress as if I'm responsible for it, but it's certainly, there's an escalation, a danger that a doctor would feel in an emergency room where they're trying to save a person who's been injured in a car crash. So that state of apprehension, that readiness, is part of the crisis. And crisis have both danger and opportunity to them. The danger is they continue to repeat what's not been working and escalate it to a point where the two people aren't growing nor is the marriage. Because when even one person within the marriage is not growing, the marriage can't. And so I say that in all sincerity. I'm not putting blame or shame on either one of you.

So what they found is that there's quite a lot of things that stress marriages. There's quite a lot of things that emotionally upset or destabilize the emotions within one's body and how they think and believe. Most of us think that we're rational. The science has told us we're not. That there's more thinking that goes on that actually pulls toward the negative than the positive, i.e. that's the kind of thing that cognitive therapy is focused around. That, often, one sets up a belief even without supportive evidence. And they believe it to be true.

So the first step is, that they found, the University of Washington said it this way: Before persons can be communicative, they need to calm down. So they didn't teach communication skills. They'd ask people to talk about what's bugging them. Because the skill that they needed was to know when their own body escalated so they could calm it down so they could hear one another.

The second part is the ability to speak non-defensively. When a person accuses somebody of something or judges or doesn't hear, it kills the escalating (I don't think this came out right. I'm assuming he meant that when someone does this, it escalates things). When there's escalation, the body just goes into fight-or-flight syndrome. Either it gets more defensive or more aggressive. Or it denies reality. So speaking non-defensively is another skill level that people learn.

Thirdly, validation. Being able to validate what's real and what's important, and to really validate the other person. To see what they see, hear what they hear, feel what they feel. Even if they don't agree with it, to validate that they're making an attempt to understand and hear it.

Fourthly, Gottman and his crew state that what they term as over-learning: you do the top three over and over and over again.

Markman and Stanley, University of Denver: their conclusions over the long-term just kind of was interpreted a little bit differently but they came up with some similar kind of outcomes. What they found is that there are four weeds that could be plucked from the garden so that the fruit from the garden would have the chance to grow. And they said that negative interpretation had to go. Escalation had to go. Invalidation had to go. Those are kind of negative terms. So I kind of think if there's a negative, what's the opposite? Invalidation sounds a lot like validation, that Gottman and his crew talked about. Escalation? The opposite seemed to be calming down. Negative Interpetation is the way we think. What was the other thing? Did I say four? I missed one. Oh, avoidance. How did I forget that? So the opposite of avoidance would be approach.

So the way I would validate the courage on both of your parts is: not a lot of people walk through that door and face some of the tough stuff you're facing. And I would want to validate that it hurts. And I would want to validate that it had to I would support your marriage is, like, in the emergency room of the hospital room. Unless there's some destabilization, the chances of succeeding are lessened. And so, in terms of therapeutic separation, when I talked to you and read to you some things. Did I read some things to you? (asking WW. Actually, he read some things to me during the individual session I had with him that WW is unaware of)

Therapeutic separation is not invented by me. And there's a lot of people that talk about something of that definition that's not therapeutic. In other words, a separation that's just a way station to 'get me out of here so I carry on and do my own thing' is not a therapeutic separation. It's couched in the way of an emergency room that the person is in a cardiac care unit or intensive care unit. Visitors can't come in as they're in the process of trying to just get recovered enough, stable enough, to be put out on the floor. So, in that sense, the separation is not meant to be an end in itself but a thoughtful, non-emotional way of recognizing what the emotions are that's going on. How each person deals with their emotions is what they need. So that they can be whole and communicate that to the other person as two adults.

There's probably other people that... there's writers... Clinton Phillips, he's dead now, but he wrote on separation. I think there's some textbooks out there that are more subjective. Maybe clinicians that have experienced difficulties with marriages and what they've used when something isn't working to try something to get stabilization back so that they can come back to it and actually do the work later. In fact, I think that you (BHHFSGuy) even offered a kind of a text that... SAA. Does WW know about that?

Me: I left out the book for her to read and look at and-

IC: So do you know that he has consulted some textbooks for information to try and understand what's going on?

WW: Oh, yes. But they all deal with affairs.

Me: That's kind of a problem for us. She believes that she did not have an affair. And, therefore, none of the texts are of any value to our situation.

IC: Is his interpretation of that accurate?

WW: They have all these examples. And I keep saying 'if you can find one that fits my situation, then I'll be glad to look at it.' But I don't agree. I don't see it.

IC: What is it that you don't see?

WW: I just don't think that UNDECIPHERABLE with this person constituted a years-long affair, which is what BHHFSGuy is saying. He's saying I had it for three years. And I just don't understand where you get that.

Me: There are e-mails from her to him from when she wasn't at work to his work account asking him personal things about 'what are you wearing to work today' and things that really wouldn't qualify as something that a innocuous friend relationship would be about.

WW: I don't agree. It seems like asking somebody to take you to lunch or whatever does not constitute an affair. It just seems like the issue is he's a male. If it was a female you wouldn't care, but since it was a male friend that's where you just jump to 'it was an affair the whole time.'

Me: There's certain aspects that make it more than just asking out to lunch. It was asking out to lunch and then not telling me about it.

IC: Secrets

WW: It's secret in that you really didn't care what I did at work or during the day. You never asked me 'What'd you do during your day?' Do you tell me what you do for lunch every single day?

Me: When I've gone out for lunch with members of the opposite sex, I have always told you about that.

WW: Was that the purpose of it? So I know you're not having an affair?

Me: It's a way to help keep myself safe

WW: And that's been your plan for however many years? That was your intention?

Me: I wouldn't say it was a plan. I think that there are times when I would ask myself 'Is this a dangerous place? Am I doing something W wouldn't be happy with? If she found out about this and I hadn't told her, would she be upset with me about this? So, OK, let me not let that happen.' So I will say 'I'm going out to the EVENT with FEMALE CO-WORKER on Friday night while you're at work.' And if that is not something you're OK with, or comfortable with me doing that, you can tell me 'i don't feel comfortable with you doing that.' But you openly admitted that you specifically hid your interactions with OM. It was your own choice and your own doing that you specifically kept it from me. So that, to me, is not OK to me. That's kind of the bottom line, I guess. The continuation of 'I still want to see him again. I still want to talk to him. I don't care if you don't like it, I'm going to do it anyway.' It's very painful.

(LONG PAUSE)

Yes, there's no doubt in my mind that WW is in a lot of pain. I have always wanted to make my W happy, so I agreed to a few things on D-Day that I probably shouldn't have. That I would not contact OM or OMGF before she did. That I would allow her to meet with OM to talk about resolving things and get some questions answered.

Her tears cut deep into me and I want to just make her happy again. But now I question if those tears are manipulative because they will usually get me to back down.

Oh, and remember, it's 'not about him at all' and he's not an 'affair partner' because she didn't have an 'affair.'

She has said repeatedly that she knows there's no future with OM and has even referred to him negatively ('man-******' being my favorite description). But, again, it's 'not about him' and 'he has nothing to do with any of this.' What she's scared of is that I won't ever 'get over' this one mistake and I will punish her forever.

I would like to believe that she won't move, and other family/friends have wondered if maybe she won't. But she's accepted the new job, she's given her letter of resignation to her current job, and she's given her 30-day notice to our landlord. And she has the support of her family and BFF in doing so. I simply cannot believe that she'd take all of that back in the next two weeks. I think she's too proud.

I've heard this from a lot of people now. And as good as it feels to hear it, I ask myself 'If I'm handling it so well, why has nothing changed?' Looking back at my threads, WW is essentially still in the same place as she was months ago, blaming me for all of this, and only two weeks away from achieving her goal of moving away w/o me. Have I just been rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and people are telling me how nice the arrangement is?

Thanks for that. I will try and remember it. My expectation is that she will respond with 'then don't pull these stunts like coming back to the bed and calling my family behind my back,' but I hope they will be words she can remember and think about later. Mostly I'm trying to show my care through actions and it seems like it's getting through. She has been expressing her thanks to me for everything I do and even showing admiration regarding my workplace efforts.

I know I'm late responding to this, but wanted to address and how I'm half-doing it. First, I acknowledge and accept that she is leaving, but not that it is the end of the marriage. She has even stated that her leaving is not the end of the marriage and she just 'needs space and time' to figure out what she really wants.

After our joint session with the IC, she was concerned about how I was doing and asked if I was upset with her. She doesn't want me to be upset with her and doesn't want me to think this is the end of the marriage.

I am trying to end our time together on a high note. I have been continuing my Plan A efforts and it's been much easier because of her willingness and eagerness to do fun, enjoyable things together. And she's been more active in offering to pay me back for various activities and dinners that I've paid for. She even suggested an activity for yesterday that is something I would generally enjoy more than her. Afterwards I took her out to our favorite restaurant in that city. This afternoon we're going to a food & wine-tasting event in a differing nearby city.

A priest once told me that his aunt married a man who turned into an alcoholic, she separated from him, she always considered herself married, and forty years later he returned to her to die of cirhossis of the liver.

I find that a touching story. Your wife may have quit her job, she may have given notice on her apartment, she may have accepted that new job, and she may move. I still think you are doing what is best for your marriage, and I think this story will have a happy ending. Continue to tell her you care about her. You seem like a really great guy. She may need to give up on you completely and move on with no intent to go back to you before she realizes what she lost. I think you are leaving an impression that will come back to her again and again. It's like the story of the Prodigal Son. You tell her you are sorry to see her go, and you welcome her back if she returns.

Cherishing

I read over the second part of the therapy session, and one thing that strikes me is that you are both invalidating the other person's point of view as to whether or not the relationship with this guy was an affair. My husband told me many times, "Nothing happened." Later, he told me he decided he wasn't having an affair because he didn't have intercourse. That's WS fog.

What I would recommend you focus on in that you are hurt by her continued contact with this guy and then look to her for validation of why you might be hurt -- that she seems more interested in this guy than in you.

I think you have a counselor who wants to have the situation calmed down first and sees therapeutic separation as the only way to accomplish this. Don't get into definitions of affair or not affair. Again, logic. Appeal to her emotions. Tell her you are hurt and upset by the relationship. Bring up the term validation with the counselor. You are looking for validation that your feelings matter, that you don't want this guy around because you perceive him as a threat even if he isn't.

Cherishing

PS. "I've heard this from a lot of people now. And as good as it feels to hear it, I ask myself 'If I'm handling it so well, why has nothing changed?' Looking back at my threads, WW is essentially still in the same place as she was months ago, blaming me for all of this, and only two weeks away from achieving her goal of moving away w/o me. Have I just been rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and people are telling me how nice the arrangement is?" Answer: She has free will. You may do everything very well, so well that 99 out of 100 women would decide to stay with you. Your wife may be that 1 of 100 who sees an abusive husband where there is a husband who is doing his best to show care.

Here is the third (and final) segment of our session with the counselor last Thursday:

Me: So... we have some problems seeing eye-to-eye, obviously...

IC: That was another item that Gottman and his crew picked up. He found that successful marriages didn't agree. In fact, he says 65 percent of those things that couples were having difficulty with, 40 years later still weren't resolved. It just didn't matter in the bigger picture. There was more needs getting met to offset that one that I would give my spouse a pass on. And they were more in a comfortable equilibrium that they could deal with the issues they had even if they didn't agree with it. And they would save the big battles. And, again, they came back to calming down, speaking non-defensively and validating one another. And Markman and Stanley would go to the ???? that rather than evaluating the other person and saying 'what ways am I avoiding the marriage? In what ways am I escalating? When do I escalate? How? In what ways am I interpreting events negatively? And in what ways am I invalidating rather than validating the person?' And all of those tend to be how am I listening to myself. Clarifying myself. And how am I listening to the other person and clarifying them?

There's some others in marital assessment and evaluation: contextual therapy looks at... it doesn't take the gunpowder labels like affair, alcoholism, or looking at who does what. If you can fill in the blank of what the hot topic would be. They said that trust is built on a formula something like this. There's entitlements over obligations. I'm entitled to some separateness. The obligation is, 'Hmmm, y'know, out of obligation, my relationship, my marriage, I can strain myself even though it might not harm me, I don't do them or do do them because the other person really likes it.' So it's more of an obligation over the entitlement. Oftentimes that balance gets so the marriage seems like the give and take of things, I'm the giver and the other person's the taker. And to make this marriage work I have to give in. And that's not a balance, not a flexible even flow. And so in contextual therapy, their thought is that if forgiveness is going to have a chance, then what hurt needs to be spoken. And even though it may not hurt you (WW) or you (Me), what you do may hurt her and what you do may hurt him. And to at least hear what the hurt is, even if you don't agree with it. And honor enough in the entitlement/obligation to make a sincere effort at balancing it. A request made honored by the other person. When that occurs, it doesn't fix anything, but it kind of tills the ground for growth to occur. So in terms of one reason why, WW, when you and I talked... first of all I would like to validate that I hear how difficult it was for you even to come here for the first time. And I think that what I heard was I want to at least hear from you what's going on, because I heard from BHHFSGuy. And even working with one person, I was still pro-marriage. And if it were just BHHFSGuy's view of what's going on, without your collaborative effort. That would feel awfully like the powerbase is he's telling you and you're not doing it right. And so I wanted to invite you and that was risky, but I sense that we could've been doing the individual dance and just hearing one another for a long time, and not getting the good that could be gotten and further frustrate both of you. So I was listening for what's happening, how's it happening, what can be done differently to maybe ... not the answer ... but tinker with what kind of dance you're in and change the dance a bit. So you not only came one time, but you came more. And I think I asked you about your goals. Or did I? What would your purpose be for being here, I might have put it. And you came back. And then we at the end of the last session asked about 'If things aren't working and positive, what about a structured separation?' And you said to me, I think, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you'd think about it and possibly ask BHHFSGuy to come in. And I would be open to that. And we're here.

And BHHFSGuy, you came to see me initially. You wouldn't even be coming to see me if something hadn't disrupted your sense of balance. And I heard from you that you've already thought/consulted/talked with quite a few people. And, y'know, I'm kind of down here. I'm not the expert. You really are the experts, the captains of your own ship. And this is your marriage (Me). It's 100 percent yours. And this is your marriage (WW). It's 100 percent yours. What you do with it is your responsibility.

Well, back to thinking about the kind of individual growth, work that both of you need to do. I think reflecting on what happened, how it happened and what you're going to do differently in the future. I don't know what that difference is going to look like. You have some possibilities. You've already thought about moving to Lost Wages, CA (To WW). You all have tried engaging in conversation. You've tried changing some things and trying to hear what your weaknesses were and trying to change them (To Me). Is that ...?

Me: Yeah, I know that I'm not 100 percent successful just because we all have habits and habits can be hard to break. I'm trying to change my bad habits and hopefully begin some good ones. As far as Lost Wages, CA, the moving isn't really a thought anymore, it's happening. She is going to-

IC: I wanted to... Sometimes things happen and we might not have control over whether they happen or we MIGHT have control over it and do things that really aren't good for us and later on we pay the price for it and it feels awful. And you either change it or live with the consequences of it. And over time things can hurt. What I know about most marriages and I don't know this about the two of you. Most people get together for what we know is positive intent. You don't usually get together in a relationship out of negative intent. Maybe some. I can think of one couple I saw that got married because it'd show their mother. It was out of rebellion. 'I'll show you.'

Me: Not a good foundation.

IC: No. So it already was built in some building blocks that... Doesn't mean that the marriage couldn't succeed, just that there was a lot of odds stacked against it. But most people get into a marriage and they oftentimes don't know themself very well. And so out of their own desire, whatever that is, whether it's a physical desire... I grew up in a Baptist home and I figured the only way I was going to be able to have sex is if I got married. Well, if it was just that, it's probably not a real great way to start a marriage. Because it was kind of topsy-turvy and I didn't know myself in a lot of other areas. So how could I be intimate with another person? Oh, I could have sex with them. But how could I have conversational intimacy? How could I share what I believed? What if my beliefs changed? Could I share that?

Marriages grow and they're challenged and they learn from challenges and they repeat them. If something that's hurting either one of the two of you, even though the other person might feel it's helpful to them... In this case, I'll be very specific: You (Me) were hurt by the e-mails that you saw. You (WW) were hurt that he looked into your private account. Even if I didn't put any value judgments on that, I would know that there were some things that both of you have done in the past that hurt. Now what's it gonna take to heal? Is there a positive interpretation? Is there de-escalation? A calming down? Is there validation to offset invalidation? Is there approach?

This issue about whether it's an affair or not is a moot question. Do you know why it's moot? Because you may believe it's not (WW) and you may believe it is (Me). Stay away. Arguing about whether it is or whether it isn't doesn't get to what it's going to take to heal from it. But in the process of getting through that, there's things that hurt.

So the idea of structured separation was only thrown out there as a ... it's not an answer. In fact, I'm a little reluctant. I think that's probably why I haven't written a book. Because as soon as it's in print, it becomes like it's black and white. 'If you don't do it this way, you're dead.' Where I like the idea of being able to say 'How do we collaborate in such a way that we can find ways that we would be in the process of finding solutions rather than telling people what they ought or what they ought not to do.' Does that make sense? And so to have some kind of common ground to start. You have a decidedly disadvantage on WW because you've read the book, you've consulted things. You could believe things about the book that you might not have read or interpreted differently. If the book becomes an issue rather than a resource. And even if I become more of a liability more than a resource, like if I suggest something like structured separation, if that becomes a block to healing then I haven't done a very job because I haven't heard you. And to be able to hear, to be able to calm down...

Sometimes a person has already decided that maybe a separation is in order. If that's the case, I think it's probably wise to put bricks around it. I've known couples that have been separated... I'll be seeing someone this afternoon. And part of the issue is they're having a real difficult time dealing with aging parents who've been separated for over 30 years. And now they're dealing with some confusing issues that are affecting their marriage. And they're having to work through it. So it's not even about them, it's about a couple people that they love very dearly. And they don't want to repeat the process of what separates people, because they see that the separation has just gone like a habit. That nothing is really... that the issues within the marriage haven't been addressed.

So I wanted to bring you here and to say that there's some options and I'm interested to hear other options. If it's working, support it. If it's not working, change it. Look for differences that might make a difference. So how can I be of help to you?

Me: Because we don't agree on certain things, suggestions that I make are not agreed to. So I think it would help to have someone who we're not married to to give us suggestions. Obviously you don't know our whole marriage, everything, etc. But you have a lot of experience and we respect your authority. So I'm very interested in what suggestions you would make to us. 'Here is what I would suggest that is something you should start doing. Here is a couple of small steps that you could take.' You've mentioned some things we shouldn't be doing and I think that's great too: The ways about communication and validation. But I think we could use some advice on 'Here's something you should try doing, based on my experience.'

IC: Let me ask that back to you. Knowing what you know about the way that the marriage has gone and the way you've participated in it, what would help you to make what you perceive to be an affair a non-issue?

Me: If she was willing to write a letter and sign it with me and I would mail it to him and say that 'This is over. Everything between us (not Me, OM). Our relationship was not right and it was not fair to my H and for both of our sakes, our marriage's sake, I'm ending this. Please do not ever contact me again and I won't ever contact you again.'

IC: And what do YOU need (WW) to be able to work on the marriage?

(LONG PAUSE)

WW: I would just need to feel like I'm not being spied on all the time and having this so-called affair thrown into my face and hanging it over my head all the time. It just seems like... y'know, to not feel like I'm being labeled a liar or a cheater or whatever all time. It just feels like I'm being judged all the time. And even requests like the letter is just once again implying that my relationship with him was inappropriate the entire time. I just don't agree and I don't think I could do something like that.

IC: I'm not asking you to do it. That's BHHFSGuy's request. I'm asking you to consider what a request you would have. So that you could think about the marriage, think about BHHFSGuy, in a positive way and grow. What would you need?

WW: I think I would need some space. Because right now the surveillance and just all the talk about the affair and everything just throws me off and I just get so upset about that I can't even concentrate on the real issues anymore, which is 'what is wrong with our marriage?' Instead, it just seems it's always about this one issue. And I need to be able to focus.

IC: If you need some space (WW), and you need a letter (Me), what my suggestion would be, if you're not at that point of agreement... Don't start there. Think smaller. What are some areas you COULD massage that you're changing it, that you could support the person for the effort they're already making. While you're thinking about these others... because here's my thought here: If people try to demand a bigger step than the other one is able to give, they get more rigid and they get more defensive. So to make it a non-issue... I think you get the picture. I don't know that you're ever going to change BHHFSGuy's perception about the relationship that you had with this other man. So my suggestion is don't go there. You don't have to. All you need to do is say 'If my marriage is going to succeed on this obligation/entitlement (balance), I'm hearing that. I will make it (balanced)' Think about what you can do, what you're willing to do. That it's OK even if you don't agree with it.

Let me say that pretty clear again. My adolescents, I have five boys. They don't agree with my stance about whether their marijuana smoking is OK or not. I have my opinion, they have theirs. They've consulted many sources. They've got better arguments than I do. And yet they know my position. And guess what happens when I find a bong? By the way, these kids that I say, now they're 32, 31, 25, 20... none of them are smoking pot right now. But they have. They wouldn't consider it an affair, but I did. Mary Jane was important in their lives and I tried to protect them from it. And I tried to protect the household. Did I get through to them? Nah. But 6-7 years down the road, they may think about things differently. I don't know that in the crisis they can really be clear. Pardon the expression, but there's 'too much smoke.' They're under the influence of something.

So my suggestion is 'Step Back, Think Small, Grow Slow.' But during a period of time, make the issue a non-issue. Don't let it be an issue that gets so focused on that the marriage is unimportant. Think about, for yourself, what you've tried and what will make this marriage meet your needs. That's borrowing from the 'His Needs, Her Needs' kind of thing. And that kind of posits... There's a theory behind that. The theory is that if you just get your EN met, then A have less of a chance of happening. Or destabilization. Or the marriage has a better chance to grow. Well, what we're dealing with here has already happened. We're having aftershocks. Just like what happened in your family of origins. That's already happened. You come into a marriage: 23 chromosomes of dad, 23 chromosomes of mom. They collided and it's as if the whole structure of three generations is fighting for what this marriage is going to look like. So it's bigger than you are. Get clear. Weed out the weeds so you can get clear about the focus on what's most important.

I think that you are two of the brightest people I've dealt with. I honestly really do like conversations with you. And I'll tell you what gets me a little bit bored: repeat performances, the same story. You have such neat stories that if you just get focused on that one, you don't get credit for the beauty. Does that make sense at all? So, now, if you're choosing to do a separation. I would ask you to think about it ahead of time and put some barriers there. I would imagine his fear is you're going to go out of here (WW), you're going to go to Lost Wages, CA, you're gonna be carte blanc, you're gonna be full-blown and you're not going to want him anymore.

WW: No.

IC: That's not what I... That might be his fear.

WW: I know.

IC: Y'know what I think her fear is? That you won't be able to forget. And you will further escalate and engulf her. It'll be like the shaming parent that's trying to catch her doing something wrong and smother her. So y'know what? I think that both of those exist. And so how do you take one inch toward the middle rather than all or nothing? So I would suggest that you think small. And I'm available here if you need me. I would ask you to... don't go away from here thinking you've gotten my opinion on what's going to save... they're just some reflections that you might think about differently. And if you try something different, do it with a purpose and think about it. So I'm available if you need me. Think about it. Call me if you need an individual session. What's it look like in terms of move time?

WW: About three weeks.

IC: OK. There's a chance that you're going to be in Lost Wages, CA. My suggestion is that just for your own clarity, whether you stay or go, you've already started conversing with a therapist. My suggestion is you continue with someone. And my suggestion is you continue with someone. That you could say 'Here's what my goal is. This is what I want to get out of this. Unclarity to being able to clarify myself. I want to be able to be happier in my job.' Those would be individual issues that would be important to address. So if you're going to be separated, it doesn't mean it's the end. If could be, if you let it. Or it could be one of the most positive things that could happen for you, if you look for it.

(To WW) And if you need some help in the Lost Wages, CA, area, I'll see if I know anybody up there. (To Me) Did you need your book back (SAA)? Thanks for letting me peruse it.

END OF SESSION

I left the session feeling pretty good, because despite my directly asking the counselor what he thought we should do, he did not recommend separation. He recommended starting small. And even knowing that WW is planning to separate anyway, he recommended 'putting a wall around it,' 'not letting visitors in' and doing it with a purpose and not as a 'way station on the way out of the marriage.' I think she's heard some good advice from the counselor, but I don't know if she really heard what I heard.

I also had a chance to ask for the NC letter and, even in front of the counselor, where I think she would be most willing to show some effort, she refused to do that and refused to recognize that her relationship with him was inappropriate. I also noticed that when IC asked WW what I could do for her, she didn't actually list things I could do. She listed that what she needed was 'to not feel like' and that she needed 'space.' Those are not direct actions I can take.

I have not brought up any A/M/R talk since this session last Thursday afternoon, but right after we left the session, WW stopped me in the parking lot before we both went back to our respective workplaces and initiated a short conversation. I will try and recount that in my next post.

"And even requests like the letter is just once again implying that my relationship with him was inappropriate the entire time."

I think it is significant that she used the words "the entire time." She's implying it has been inappropriate at least some of the time. I bet she hasn't admitted to herself that the relationship was inappropriate, so how could she admit it to you? That's like my husband telling himself it isn't an affair so he wasn't doing anything wrong because he stopped short of intercourse. Later, he told me, "I thought I was fooling everyone, and the only person I was fooling was myself." I agree with the IC that she need space -- you cannot convince her of what her conscience needs to tell her.

I don't see any point in your snooping. I agree with the IC to just drop it and focus on your relationship with your wife. My IC once told me to stop snooping because "you don't want to be in a marriage in which part of your job is to keep him from having another affair." She needs to end this on her own time. You have the upper hand over this guy who would go after a married woman. Harley has said that a woman cannot handle a man having an affair, but a man can compete.

Cherishing

After we left the counselor's office, we were walking to our respective cars to drive back to our workplaces and WW had a short discussion with me after I pleasantly asked if I'd see her after work. Here are a few segments:

WW: You OK?

Me: Yeah, YOU OK?

WW: You still hate me or not believe me?

Me: STILL hate you? I don't hate you, so don't ask me if I STILL hate you.

WW: But do you still not trust me about going to Lost Wages, CA?

Me: I... y'know, I don't like it.

WW: But do you still think I'm trying to **UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: No. I-

WW: It's just, y'know, the job makes me miserable. And I know I can... there's an easy way to fix that. That's what I'm doing.

Me: I guess I'm... I know that you're miserable-

WW: That makes me a miserable person to be around.

Me: I am just not sure that... y'know, you've been miserable at work before. And you give your reasons why and so then I suggest if this person and these other co-workers are making you unhappy, let's get away from them and do something different. Or if the hours are making you unhappy. So then we go and change all that, and you're like 'Yes, it's good.' and then 'No, I'm unhappy again.' Well, why? 'Well, it's this one person and they're making things miserable again.' OK, now they're gone. Are you happy? 'Well, no, now it's this person that's making it miserable.' Oh, OK, why don't we change where you're at and you won't be working with that person anymore. Now are you happy? 'Well, no, now it's a different person.'

WW: So you're saying I'm never happy and so changing the job won't make a difference.

Me: You're saying there's an easy solution and all you need to do is go and 'I'll be happy.' And I'm just a little concerned that it's not that easy and maybe that's not... It's like IC said: Is that solution working? It doesn't seem to be. It doesn't seem to be working in terms of 'Well, all I need do is get away from these 1 or 2 or 3 or X number of people and then I'll be happy.'

**UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: If you want to go be by yourself and be happy, what can I say. That's what you want to do and that's what you're doing.

WW: You seem to think that this is all part of some plan I have and it's not. I'm just thinking maybe I don't deserve to be around you and maybe I just need to figure this out for myself. Maybe I just need to get away from you and understand what I'm missing.

**UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: But you wanted it to happen (PA)

WW: I didn't plan for it.

Me: One thing IC said was that it's important to have a plan. And you said you don't. So think about it.

WW: It's not a plan. It just seems like it's instinct. And I do need to think about it, but ... sometimes things just happen.

Me: You going is not an accidental something that happened. It's a choice you're making. There ARE things in life you don't have control over. There are things that just happen to us. Like if the river flooded and wrecked our home, that's a situation we didn't have control over. But you leaving your job and moving away is not 'It just happened'

**UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: I want you to feel free to bring stuff up to me. And I understand that you're wary about doing that sometimes, so I will try and do whatever I can to make you NOT wary.

WW: Would it help if I assure you that this move isn't about leaving you forever? I don't know if it seems weird or **UNDECIPHERABLE** what the needs are that you fill for me and everything. Right now I'm know I'm being reactionary and I'm just a total freak and I don't like being like this. I'm sick of crying.

Me: If you are worried about what I'm going to say in response to what you're going to say, just tell me right off 'I want to tell you something, but I'm worried about what you're going to say. So maybe don't say anything or don't respond at all.' If you don't want a response, just tell me 'I don't want a response. I just want to tell you this.' And you can just tell me. And if I start to respond, you can remind me 'You promised me you weren't going to respond.' And I'll say 'OK, you're right. I promised. I'm sorry.' Because sometimes I try and I fail to break my habits. That's important to me. That you communicate with me. And not hold it in and hide things. So tell me. And if the reason you aren't telling me is because you're worried about what I'm going to say, then tell me 'I'm worried about what you're going to say, but I know this is important to tell you. So please don't yell at me.'

*****

WW was visibly distressed during this conversation and I tried my best to comfort her. But I don't know what the cause of her tears are. Is she crying because she can't convince me to agree with her leaving? She mentioned that she didn't see this as 'the end of the marriage' but thought I was seeing it that way. I assured her that I didn't see it as the end of the marriage, but I didn't agree with it and didn't like it. It seems like she's just trying to say anything to get me to like/agree with her leaving. I noticed how she has even brought up the filling of emotional needs and how she should leave so she can find out which ones I'm filling.

She seems to be at the edge of a cliff, pleading with you to push her off. And you are standing there, next to her, not preventing her from jumping and not giving her any reason to jump. She cannot claim you are being controlling. The reason for her jump has to be her responsibility. If she sees it as hers alone, maybe she won't jump. Her words come through as full of pain.

Cherishing

Your WW's just a mess right now. She doesn't know up from down. Just reiterate that you won't hold this over her forever, but it will take some time to regain trust and put things back together. Let her know that you obviously aren't happy either right now, but she is worth the effort. Let her know that there will be no "friends" if she ends the marriage or continues to contact OM. She is either your W or nothing to you, those are her ONLY choices, but it is HER choice. Stop bringing up the word affair right now. Dr. Harley says, to tell them, I don't care if you want to call it a "bologna sandwich," but your "bologna sandwich" hurt me very much and I don't want to ever experience "bologna sandwich" again. Continuing to contact OM just continues to pour salt into that open wound.

BHHHFSGuy,

I just caught up on your entire thread. I feel for you.

Your WW sounds so much like my exww.

She sounds like a woman with a very needy personality. She sounds like she constantly needs external reassurance to feel good about herself. You'll never make a woman like that happy.

Now, as far as D-day goes: Did you have irrefutable evidence?

When she denies that it was an affair, you can show her the emails you've posted here and how you've seen the messages and her own words about it.

I feel you never adequately gave irrefutable evidence. How do you know it was a PA? Is there an email stating so?

When she insists that she needs closure with him, I suggest you say that she needs to accept the fact that she was simply a romp for him and nothing more, otherwise why would he not contact her or talk with her or leave his GF for her?

Granted, that will likely get you nowhere.

My advice to you? Leave. Divorce this woman and start over. A lesson learned for you on the personality type. You're a christian and she's not. That says a great deal. I think people without religion have no moral compass. Many with religion ignore their moral compass, but at least it's there. If you were Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, or whatever, I'd encourage you to find a woman with similar beliefs and who understands the value of making a commitment to God.

You will be the bad guy in her eyes as long as she remains in the fog. I'm sure she'll wonder why you've gone so dark once you do separate, which is coming soon.

My ex went into the fog and never came out. Granted, I did things to help justify her feelings against me, but she doesn't acknowledge her part in inflicting pain. You've done a wonderful job and have handled yourself as I wish I had.

Honestly, I think you'd be better off with someone new. Your W sounds very immature. She sounds like a person who must have constant change in her life because she's never happy with "normal".

Find someone rooted in reality.

I don't think you should try to save your marriage, but that's your decision to make. You have no children and are still young enough to be with someone else and have a family and do it right. I'd encourage you to find women completely different from your ex.

Understand that I say this completely sympathetic to your pain and situation. I was once in your shoes.

I've had over a year to emotionally separate myself from my ex and see that she was a bad choice for me all along. I'm tied to her because of children, but otherwise would have nothing to do with her. You have a freedom many of us here don't. If you divorce, it's tragic and painful and unfortunate. But you don't have kids caught in this mess and are young enough to have a good start with someone else once you're done healing.

Your DW is dead. You're dealing with an alien. I feel for you.

I hate to be so negative, but no one deserves to be treated like you're being treated. A wayward makes him/herself the victim in every aspect. Nothing you do will be good enough and your feelings don't matter.

It's taken me a long time to finally accept that my exww will never feel she did wrong or acted wrongly. All your WW's words about spying and smothering her are direct echoes from my situation.

You have no kids. Be happy about that and kick this woman to the curb. You deserve so much better.

Love is not enough. It will hurt and you will mourn, but I don't see why you want to save this. I understand your committment to your vows. That is noble that you want to honor them. But don't let them keep you hostage. You've tried hard to save your marriage. She's done horrible things and won't own up to any of the mistakes.

The choice is yours and I wish you luck in whatever path you choose, but I feel you need to just bail out and save yourself. Life is too short to be wasting it on someone who is wreckless with your heart.

Seriously, ask yourself, "Why do I want to save this? What will happen if I do? Would I ever have children with this woman after what she's done?"

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I partly envy you for not having kids with this woman. She reminds me a lot of my ex and experience and maturity tell me that women like her have deep and serious issues that will never be resolved until they get help. They will go through life plowing a path of destruction, oblivious to the damage and chaos they create and blaming everyone but themselves for their troubles. You could be the greatest guy on earth and you will never please this woman.

I know you get encouraged by others here to do things right to save your marriage. I believe you've done the best you could till now and now need to save yourself.

My advice would be different if you had kids, but you don't. Count your blessings.

Good luck.

I'm just wondering- what kind of marriage does she think you guys will have living in two separate places?? That is assuming she's not leaving you forever as she has stated.

Also, does she think you will permanently wait for her or what?

People often ask me 'Does WW think such-and-such... ?' and the answer I have to always give is 'If I knew what WW THOUGHT, maybe I wouldn't be in this situation.' I wish I could really answer these questions, but all I can really do is try and divine her thoughts based on her words and actions. So here are my GUESSES:

"What kind of marriage does she think you guys will have living in two separate places?" : I'm guessing she doesn't think of it as a 'kind of marriage' and doesn't think about 'us guys' at all. She is thinking she wants to be free to do whatever she wants as a single, independent woman unencumbered by her ball-and-chain H. She has asked me on occasion 'Isn't that what you want?'

"Does she think you will permanently wait for her or what?" : Yes, I'm guessing she thinks I am totally and utterly dependent on her and will simply do whatever it takes to have her. That I'm so sadly, desperately in love with her that I will always be around for whatever scraps she throws my way.

Dunno how much of my thread you've read, but she's mentioned that she feels like I think she's my trophy wife. That I only love her for looking pretty and she's so hot I could never do better than her. And/Or that I can't live without her money and just want her to take care of me.

Now that I've finally related the whole session with the counselor the discussion I had with WW immediately following it, I can give you all an update on what's happened since:

WW has continued to be very pleasant to me, expressing appreciation for everything I do. She even suggested an activity for last Saturday that is something I would generally be more interested in than her. Even when we had to wait an hour unnecessarily, she didn't much complain. Afterwards I took her to our favorite restaurant in that area.

On Sunday we attended a food- and wine-tasting event in a nearby city. She agreed quite readily when I presented the idea, despite the fact that neither of us drink wine. And even though we got a little lost, she was upbeat throughout (compared to a month ago when we got slightly lost in a different city). The awkward moment came when we saw a coworker of hers there, who asked WW excitedly about her upcoming move, such as when her last day at work would be and when she would start her new job. That's when I found out for the first time that WW's first day at her new job is 10/22 and her last day at her current workplace is 10/17. Gee, thanks for letting random coworkers know before telling me!

Early Monday afternoon I turned in my application at a nearby apartment complex. I have since been informed that my application has been approved and I have an appointment on Friday to sign the papers and turn in my deposit + first month's rent. My parents have generously given me the funds with which to make that payment. Maybe if WW ever comes around, she can offer to pay them back for this gift.

Later that afternoon I (finally) met with the lawyer for an initial consultation. She explained that because CA is a no-fault state that no reasons are taken into account by the court regarding divorce, separation, etc. So 'marital misconduct' is simply out. And because WW's new job has a much lower salary, there will be no basis for me requesting spousal support. Her moving doesn't change much of anything because it's still in the state and we'd still just split all the assets 50/50. And WW would need to establish residency (90 days) before she could file anything there.

Since I'm planning on pre-emptively moving out and entering Plan B, I asked Attorney what I could/couldn't take and how to figure that out. She said that if WW & I could agree on an equitable separation of assets that we wouldn't need to go to court, use lawyers, file papers, etc. and that I should talk with WW about that.

Although I have consistently told WW that I am not interested in working on separation, I figured it'd be a good idea to get this situation worked out since she's seemingly not doing anything and we're both leaving soon. So on Monday evening I asked her what she was planning to take with her when she moved out. She told me the company condo she's moving into is fully furnished, so she would be taking very little: Her small TV, a VCR, a TiVo, our desktop computer & printer, a couple of media racks w/CDs & movies, her clothes, our newspaper holding rack, and maybe a computer desk. I asked her to write out a list of what she plans to take with her and she said she'd drive over there this weekend to see how much room was available. Also that FIL has offered to come down and help her move.

Since she won't be taking much and I can't fit everything into my new 1BR/1BTH I'm thinking I'll need to rent a storage unit to put a lot of things in (washer/dryer, 2nd bed, etc.) and I'll ask her to co-fund it with me. Do I think she should fully fund it? Yes. Do I want to give her sole control over our marital property? NO. I actually think putting most of our stuff in a storage unit here in town is a good idea because it'll all be 'here' for her to 'come back' to, rather than split up between us in preparation for a D.

Oh, and when I brought this subject up on Monday night, I tried to stay very calm and cheerful. WW seemed very reticent and sad to discuss it. Said she was hoping to maybe take the computer speakers with her but 'those are your speakers and I don't want to take them if you want to use them.' I told her it'd be fine if she wanted to use them since I wouldn't really have a use for them without the desktop compputer. As much as I don't really want her to take the computer, I don't think fighting over petty things would be of any use. She even wanted to make sure that I'd be able to access all our digital music & photos (that are on the desktop computer) via our external backup drive. I'm now in the process of removing my personal web site passwords from that computer in preparation for her leaving with it.

BHHHFSGuy,

I feel for you, bud. I know how much this sucks and how hard it is.

You're being very smart about all of this and protecting yourself.

It may be very shocking for her to get D papers. It sounds like she's never really discussed that as a possibility.

You haven't answered my questions about evidence. Did you have solid evidence to present to her about her A? (email printouts, etc).

Prepare yourself to have her be very nice the next few weeks. My ex and I went on all kinds of dates before she left. I feel she misled me with these dates. She now claims they were so that things would be nice between us after she left. Pitty dates.

Prepare yourself for pitty dates. A lot of what she's doing now is just that.

You feel you're making deposits in her bank. She feels she's letting you down easy.

Just letting you know so you can be aware of it.

You're very smart about the marital property.

Finally, blood is thicker than water. Be prepared to have the in laws turn against you. It happened to me. They stuck by my ex through some really dispicable behavior, never taking a stance against infidelity or pushing her to honor her vows. You may face the same once they feel there's not chance you two will reconcile.

Just be aware of what's coming.

Surround yourself with friends and family. This will be a horrible time for you.

I have read your thread but I missed the part about the trophy wife and her supporting you.

I think she's using that as an excuse to justify her actions.

This may be true unfortunately.

Yet, you have really tried to make deposits into her love bank. Once you go to Plan B that might be a real rude awakening for her- just enough to shock her into some sense.

papaof3v2dot0, thanks for your lengthy first post in my thread. It gave me a lot to think about, which I have been doing. I will try and address some specific points:

One thing I've learned with all certainty through this is that one cannot "make" a person "feel" anything. I know that making her happy is something I've tried to do since we first dated. Looking back, I can see how there were a lot of times when I was too timid to stand up for myself against her wishes of what would make her happy. I foolishly put her own happiness above my own, partly because I have had a need to be a people-pleaser and make everyone happy.

There are also things I can look back at and realize they were mistakes even though I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time. For instance, she convinced me that it was necessary for us to live together before we got married, to 'see if it would work.' It seemed sensible enough to me at the time. But after reading the articles on this site about living together before marriage, I see that was a big mistake and led to many of the problems cited in those articles.

I thought I could "make her happy" and now see that a person is responsible for their own happiness. She will need to come to the realization that I was not the cause of her A.

What I had were segments of e-mails that I captured screenshots of when I logged onto our desktop computer while I was on my laptop. Those e-mails were from WW to BFF and were sent in the past. WW was looking through her sent messages and reading them.

On D-Day, WW asked me how I knew and I told her I had guessed based on OM's actions and words at the party we attended the day prior to my discovery of the e-mails. I did not tell her at that time because the e-mails were still somewhat vague and I wanted to get the full truth from her, not just have her admit to what little I knew. Also, I wanted to determine if what she told me was corroborated by the e-mails. Unfortunately, it wasn't completely. She told me that BFF didn't know about it. Since I knew she wasn't telling me the whole truth, I wanted to find out more by actively letting her check her account at home and watching via the other computer. I eventually gained the password via a keystroke recorder and read everything in the account, which only dates back to Jan. 07. There was basically nothing incriminating from the coworker, who rarely replied to her repeated invites to go out with her. When he did, they were simple, one-word or one-sentence replies. Most of what I know he said were WW's relating their conversations to BFF.

I didn't want to confront her with any of the new and disturbing knowledge I had gained because I knew she would press me about how I'd found out and my main source of continuing information and insight would be cut off.

I did use bits and pieces of the e-mails in my posts at some different message boards. When she found these posts, she confronted me about the text and I admitted to the original screen grabs and that I had 'tried' to get into her account. I do not like to lie and I had a really hard time with doing this. She did not change her password, and I continued to read what she wrote to BFF and vice versa. The big catch, of course, was when she wrote that lengthy e-mail to OM after 11 weeks.

My access was cut off when she changed her password after the night she told me she'd accepted the job and was going to move for certain. That was the night that I finally gave in and told her I would not accept her explanations of 'I never thought anything could happen' because of what she said in the e-mails. And similarly that BFF wasn't just some innocent bystander that had 'nothing to do with it.' I also told her that her statements to OM about 'Don't worry about BHHFSGuy. I can handle him. It's my home and I should be able to do whatever I want.' were incredibly disrespectful and I would not stand for it. Basically that her words to me were completely contradicted by the e-mails.

This issue of whether it was an affair or not was started by her. I never used the term. I was trying to be considerate. I had bought a copy of "Surviving Infidelity" prior to D-Day and I wanted her to read it afterwards. She didn't agree with the No. 1 rule, which was no further contact with OP because 'this book is about affairs, and I didn't have an affair.' Her reasoning was that 'I don't even know how he felt about me' and 'this was obviously just a one-time thing that we both agreed would never happen again.' Thus, the book's advice was invalid.

The other message board recommended "Not 'Just Friends'" by Shirley Glass, which describes emotional affairs and pretty much fits WW's situation to a tee. Again, WW said she didn't see her situation in there at all. When I asked her to take the quiz that scores whether or not you're having an emotional affair, she admitted that, yes, according to the quiz, she was. But... 'I just don't agree' 'There's nothing wrong with a married woman having a crush on someone' 'He's just a friend and I should be able to have male friends' 'We both agreed nothing physical would ever happen again.'

Eventually she found my post on the other board, which was titled 'How can I convince WW she had an A?' Well, guess how she interpreted that: 'How can I force my W to think she had an A, so I can punish her for eternity?' The best post on that thread was the one that said 'You can't convince someone of something they simply refuse to believe.' So I will reference your own quote: "Granted, that will likely get you nowhere." And it's further evidence that you simply cannot educate a WS.

She admitted to me on D-Day the one night that was physical. There was no IC, which is how she rationalized at the time that she wasn't breaking her marriage vows. The Clinton logic, I guess.

Why would he not contact her? Oh, don't you know? Because I 'ruined everything' by contacting OMGF! Now he's afraid to contact WW! It couldn't have simply been a romp, because he was her best friend!!!!! It couldn't possibly be true that the things he said that night were lies!!!

I've thought a lot about all you've written. And these thoughts didn't just start then. I've debated in my mind often during the last few months if my M is worth saving.

I'm guessing that you don't want to see me go through the same pain as you went through, which is to hope for her to come back and be disappointed when she doesn't. But I feel I am in no danger of being hurt much more because I am no longer putting myself out there to be rejected.

Also, I'm about to enter Plan B, where I will be protected from any further emotional hurt by her. I have little to lose now by going to Plan B instead of Plan D. Financially, things will turn out the same whether I give her 18 mo. or D now. So there's little benefit to D her right now, especially since I know I would always wonder if Plan B would've worked.

Which is why I plan on giving her the opportunity to come out of the fog. If that happens, then there is hope.

I think most of us BS know that our feelings run contradictory to common sense regarding infidelity. Everyone generally says that if they found out their spouse was cheating on them, they'd kick them out or D in a heartbeat. And yet it's usually the opposite of that. Hysterical bonding is an example of that. And people outside the M wonder 'why do you want to stay with someone who's so awful to you?' First, no one else has experienced the 13 years that I've experienced with her. And everyone here is only seeing the worst part. Those years of love create a powerful bond. That bond has been stretched during all this, but if I look back I can remember many wonderful memories and happy times and know that they weren't false. They were real. I don't believe WW when she says she was never happy and never wanted to get married. I can look at our pictures from the past and know that there truly were happy times that we both enjoyed. I know I can't 'go back' to the way things were, and I don't want to. I want to start something new and better and based on many of the stories here, I know that we can do that IF we are both willing to work on it.

When the IC told WW that my fear was probably that she would be full-out, carte blanc and not want ever be with me anymore, that was not true. I'm not afraid of that, because I'll just move on and be happy. If she doesn't want me anymore, that's her loss. My real fear is that she will come back and we will have a failed R, maybe because of W's deep-seated issues or my own.

Geez, where's Katie Mae when I need her?

BG,

Your WW's rationalizations sounds just like my ex's. "It was a mistake." You know, like making a right versus a left when going somewhere. When I challenged her about the dates she went on with guys she met on the myspace she said, "Those weren't dates. Dates imply romantic intent."

I usually classify a date as a one on one meeting with members of the opposite sex. I really classify it as such when such meetings are precluded by lots of flirting.

Then comes the physical infidelity. She said, "I did not cheat. I had already decided the marriage was over."

So you see, you can literally decide its over now and go have a romp of your own! You don't need to inform her at all. It's called the new "divorced in my head"! It really saves you tons on legal fees!

Your ex will make you out to be a bad guy. She already has. Will she miss 13 years? Who knows.

I can tell you this: You're mourning and she's not. You look at pics of you two together and you cry or lament. She doesn't feel anything.

She sounds like a woman who needs psychological help, to be honest. Has she ever been abused in any way?

Here's the thing: You're 30 years old. You have no frame of reference in terms of women other than the broken one you have. You haven't seen or been with women who are confident and stable and who don't need the constant reassurance your WW does.

You're a person who likes to please. So am I.

I constantly apologized or justified her behavior to others, mainly my family. "She sick right now. She's having a hard time" became my norm.

Obviously it wasn't all completely one way. She'd buy things for me and we had our weekly dates. But in retrospect, the relationship revolved around her and her desires for a long time. We didn't do things she didn't want to do. I aimed to please and never really expressed my concerns to her about things that bugged me.

So now you find yourself sort of hanging in there while she runs off to be free. I had an ex fiance do the same. She's married to guys since she left and recently contacted me about how good things were when we were together.

Why do I tell you this? Because your WW will likely run off to be free and may be gone for years before finally realizing how deeply she's hurt you and how huge a violation she's made to your marriage.

She has romantic images in her head of what an affair is versus what she did. She thinks an affair involves constantly running around on your faithful, wonderful husband and meeting up with a romantic stranger all the time to have sex all the time.

It doesn't cross her mind that what she's had is an affair or been unfaithful and that the pain of that is huge to you.

You see, the relationship is already dead to her and she simply wants to run away and be free of you. She wants to tell herself you want this as well. She wants to let you down easy.

So now you face the choice of hanging in there and hoping she wakes up and possibly waiting years for that, or you can decide you're young and have your life ahead of you and have biblically justifiable reasons to D and find a woman with values and morals and self respect and confidence.

She's going to react when you cutoff contact.

As far as leaving the spouse over infidelity:

Yes, you're right, most couples try to save their marriages or the BS doesn't jump on the "get the he!! out and don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out."

It's very rarely that easy. I understand that. I understand that as a man who's been in your shoes. But take it from me, it gets much better.

You'll stand and look back a year from now and marvel at the progress you've made. The worst lies ahead of you. The worst I went through came 2 months AFTER our divorce. My situation was weird, because people don't normally divorce as quickly as we did, but it hit me the worst when I truly found myself without anything. Your hardest times will come when she leaves.

This will be a dangerous time for you and thoughts of suicide are not uncommon.

All I can tell you is that you don't have kids and that that is a huge, huge deal.

So you spent 13 years together, so what? You are 30! You can still date 25+ year old women and start new without baggage! You still have a good chance to create a new and real family!

Baby steps first. You're in shock and in denial right now. Intellectually you may not be, but you are emotionally. What do I mean by this? I KNEW my ex was divorced from me. I KNEW she could go out with whomever she wanted. Yet, seeing her actually do it FELT like my wife was cheating on me. It FELT like infidelity again, yet she was officially divorced.

Granted this was only one month after we officially divorced, which was only 3 months after the whole thing came to light. So intellectually I knew but my emotions hadn't caught up to my brain. They're still catching up, but they're more side by side now. It's been a little over a year.

Like you, I invested years and tears and effort. I had kids with this woman. I loved her deeply and saw myself growing old with her. I felt proud about how well we communicated (I was very wrong there). I found her attractive and wanted her to realize her full potential.

Dwelling on this didn't move me forward. These are the type of things that are constantly on your mind and will be for some time. But they hold you back from progressing and looking ahead.

I really strongly recommend you look for DivorceCare in your area. It helped me tremendously and introduced me to people who understood what I was going through. It also helped me realize I wasn't crazy and that others either felt the same or were going through the same exact thing.

You remind me of a buddy in my group. His ex wanted a D out of the blue. She convinced him to leave the home and "have some time apart". He left the home he built with his brother and with his own hands. She waited for the ink on the papers to be dry and moved another guy in with her. Less than on year later? She's tried to contact him about her mistake. He was hurting badly at first, wanting her back and wanting to reconcile. Now he won't think twice about it and is happy to be single and meeting women and going out.

You'll get there. It will take time. Mourn and grive this terrible loss. Cherish the memory of your wife. She died. The person there now is someone totally new and only looks like your wife.

I only tell you these things because you have no kids. Kids are the glue that keeps families together. That includes families that are broken. I still have to deal with my ex for the next 15 years. That's been pretty much forced by the kids and the fact that I'm not going to be a father that disappears. So she and I need to coparent.

I would have nothing to do with her otherwise and would be living elsewhere. My feelings for her didn't disappear for a long time and she did some things to help completely destroy what little was left. You don't have to interact with her at all once she's gone.

It will be like withdrawl. You've spent the last few years talking to her about your day. Kissing her goodbye as you headed to work. Getting hugs from time to time.

That's gone now and you will feel withdrawl. She will too. I realized that one of the ways my ex stayed connected to me was through arguing. We did it for a long time before I chose to disengage from her rants. She did it to me as well.

You will have nothing to discuss or argue about. The best thing you can do to either move on or get her back is to completly put her in the dark and not answer her calls, emails, or anything. It will be terribly difficult, but you must do it. Same goes with calling her. Don't do it once she leaves.

I feel for you and could go on writing. I'll leave it in a digestible state for now.

I'm happy to speak to you offline if you wish. It helps to talk to people that have walked your path and felt your pain.

She's not going to wake up, bud. She's not going to come back for a while. She's going to feel "free" and happy to not have to deal with your presence. It hurts to come to grips with this fact. The sooner you do, the sooner you can start healing and move on.

You're young. You can still have kids and a family. Drop the cheating adulterous woman and don't look back. Think of her as being dead. Seriously, she's dead. The woman you knew and loved is gone. Grieve THAT woman. Kick the wayward to the curb and count your blessings you have no kids and are still young.

Easier said than done, I know. Read Chrisner's posts on his experience. He handled his pain with great humor, but the things that happened after his D have really been very inspiring and give hope.

Take care.

I had an appointment set up for today to sign the 6-month lease on an apartment and take possession tomorrow. My plan was to pre-emptively move out of our place next Friday and initiate Plan B. I felt it would send a powerful message and get me away from the place while she moved out.

UNFORTUNATELY... I got a call from the apartment manager yesterday noting that they've had an avalanche of applications and asking if I HAD to take the one I applied for. They actually have a larger one available (750+ sq.ft.) with new carpeting at the exact same price ($655/month). The catch is that it won't be available for me to move into until Oct. 19th. I agreed to it, figuring that, in the long run, it would be better to have a bigger place, especially now that I know she won't be taking many things with her.

But this means that I will not be able to implement Plan B until after she has moved out. Logistically, this will be simpler because I won't need to do a 'secret' move-out and weird out my co-workers who'll be helping me; and I won't have to then separately move the other things after she's moved out.

Emotionally, I'm disappointed that I will not be able to move out first. And I'm wondering how best to proceed with Plan A during her moving out. Do I stick around and put on a happy face in front of FIL while he helps her out, essentially Plan A'ing him as well? Or do I remove myself completely from it? I guess it will depend on when, exactly, WW arranges to move out with FIL's help. She may arrange it so that I'm busy and can't be there (I will be busy with work events Oct. 19-21).

I know that the advice is to leave WS with the best possible memories of BS before Plan B is implemented. So any advice about how to accomplish that is welcome. I have a concert lined up for Wednesday, Oct. 10th, but nothing planned after that.

Helping her move will only re-enforce her idea that you're at her beck and call. She wants to move out. She can do the work with the FIL.

Don't make it easy on her. Go hang out with a buddy. Take a stand and make a statement. It's very simple. You don't agree with this and will not actively participate in the demise of your marriage.

Again, this is coming from someone who's been in your shoes and looks back in shame at how gutless I was at the time.

Others here may feel different. That's my two cents.

I agree with PO3 on this one. I wouldn't lift a finger to help. But I would be there to make sure she doesn't take more than she's entitled to.

I will warn you that it is difficult to witness. My ex brought over friends to help but I refused to let them in. She had to do it all by herself. It's called consequences.

As a cautionary tale, my SO's ex husband cleaned out the house while she was at work. Took more than a year to work it out in court.

One other thing: what happens if your WW gets pregnant by some other man while she's on her sabbatical from your marriage? Can you be certain you will not be on the hook for CS?

MIL was emotionally abusive to WW and her SILs when they were young (IMO). WW has described it as being like the movie "Mommie Dearest." MIL abandoned WW because a guy offered MIL a car. Then WW went to live with FIL. I met her in HS after all this happened. WW has described MIL as bipolar and that she has been prescribed drugs in the past. One of the SILs was also prescribed anti-depressants.

I am not a therapist, but I do believe that WW has some deep issues that were caused either by her parents fighting/divorce or MIL (or both). One of my coworkers that has been supporting me through this has some experience with bipolar disorders and based on her description of high highs and low lows, I don't think WW is bipolar. She doesn't have high highs. But I am concerned that she suffers from depression or even just seasonal depression. Coming from a very stable family of origin, I was completely unprepared to recognize these types of things. As far as physical abuse: yikes, I don't even want to go there, but do worry. Isn't it true that some people don't even know that they were abused because their mind buries it in their subconscious? I think she has an SF issue and I started to wonder a few months ago, but I could never raise that issue with any of her family, not even the reason why I would ask.

When I first suggested seeing a therapist, after D-Day, she was adamant about not doing so. 'Oh, so you think I'm crazy, is that it?' She refused on the basis of her bad experience with a therapist as a child. She said MIL made her and SILs go to the therapist so the therapist could determine if it was the kids that 'made her crazy.'

She is very resistant to see doctors of any kind. She hasn't seen a single dentist, doctor, ob/gyn, etc. the entire time I've known her. It's always the same excuse she gives for not seeing a therapist: 'what could they tell me that I don't already know?'

Very troubling, IMO. Unfortunately, you can't "fix" another person or even help them if they won't accept that they need help.

Check

Check

I will definitely not wait years. IC said to give it 2-5 years and I was thinking 'No way am I going to sit around waiting for 5 years.'

That is exactly it.

Nope, she did not understand the pain. Part of that is because I went through a lot of it in the 10 days prior to D-Day (due to my discovery) without her full awareness. When she started to read the books, she learned about it. That's when the walls started to come up about 'But these books are about affairs and I didn't have an affair. My situation is unique.'

Agreed.

I don't think Plan B is about "hanging in there and hoping she wakes up." At least, that's not what I'm planning it will be. After I enter Plan B, I intend to try and not think about her anymore. NC of any kind. Live my life how I would like to live it (while not doing anything that would offend W). Enjoy being by myself, work on improving myself, re-evaluating what I want to do, where I want to be. Reconnect with old friends, gain new ones. Put renewed energies into work and hobbies. Put simply, focus no energy on WW. Then I won't think I'll have wasted that time.

Ideally, my Intermediary will be able to help me deal with this. And I'm sure the first few weeks will not be perfect as I plug all the leaks in the dam. But I will try my best (for myself) to go dark.

I've already been there. That was the first couple of weeks. I know our situations are similar, but I am truly looking forward to beginning Plan B. I am not afraid of her leaving anymore and I am not afraid of D anymore. Those were big steps for me. I'm sure you don't see that because my first postings here were a long while after discovery.

Maybe it will seem ridiculous for me to say this. But I see 30 as old (for me). And 13/30 is almost 50%. So I'm trying to deal with the idea that nearly half of my life was a waste. I know it wasn't, but it's a lot to me to just 'throw away.' It's going to take me some time to 'get over' that. Maybe 18 months...

Well, let's be real. I do have baggage. Even if I got a D tomorrow, I'd be a 30-year-old divorced guy who has some trust issues. And I know I'm not ready to date right now. I will need some time to figure that out. I'm sure I will figure it out, but right now there's no way.

I believe you. But the thing is that I realize now she has been emotionally detaching from me for a year or two (while emotionally attaching herself to coworker). I didn't know those words then, but now I can recognize it for what it was. So there truly is not much to miss anymore. Certainly not the criticisms or rejections. I'm sure that sounds kind of sad, but as I sit here alone in our bed while WW sleeps alone in a separate bedroom, I ask myself 'Um, what am I going to miss, exactly?'

This is probably a terrible post for me to make, because 6 months from now you all can pull quotes from it and say 'You said you wouldn't miss her and now you're saying you do!' but it's the way I feel right now, despite WW's current pleasant, giving attitude.

I do appreciate your thoughts on this, especially since there are a lot of similarities between your WW and mine. So don't feel like I'm disregarding your opinion. I put them all in the pot to stir together so I can come up with a decision of my own.

Why limit himself to 25+ year-olds? College girls are a lot of fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously thought, your WW has a lot of issues that she needs to deal with. You can't force her to deal with them. Plan B will be critical for her. She can either deal with her problems or continue to run away from them. You have done all that you can for her. If she still chooses to run away from her problems, then she is going to be lost for a long time. It's not your fault she's f'ed up. If it doesn't work out, find someone without so much baggage next time. When you learn about a woman's past and find that she was abused or her parents have several failed marriages, you now know to be huge red flags. Now it may not be their fault, but you don't need a woman to drag you down into her misery.

My FWW is the same way. She has issues with anxiety and depression from her parent's divorce and her mother being somewhat emotionally abusive. My FWW is starting to go to a MC with me, but I am realizing that it is going to be a LONG time until things get better.

BHHF,

Since we are talking years, if you married at 31 you will be married 30 years by the time you are 61, which I can tell you from experience is NOT over the hill. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Yes, you will miss the woman she was, the woman you married and you will NEVER forget her. You would be very foolish to even try. She is part of you, she is part of what you are, and she is part of what you will be. Embrace that. But, let go of the woman she is now. She may change and come back. She may actually grow up and then she might not.

No one can tell you differently. So while it is said recall the good things and use them to make your life better. Recall the bad things and learn from them to make your life better. You have total control over this use it wisely.

As for your W who is to know what the future brings. I think your sense that her leaving is the end of the marrriage, despite what she says. You may be wrong.

By the way plan B has a specific purpose. It is to slow down the leak of love so that it prolongs the chance that your marriage might be rebuilt IF she changes her mind. But, the love bank will drain in plan B and eventually YOU will make decisions that are best for you.

Take your time, relax, and realize that you have learned a few things about your next relationship whether you know it or not.

Learn, grow, and you will find life will treat you well.

God Bless,

JL

I have revised my Plan B Letter a bit based on the feedback you all have given me and having thought more about what I want to say and not say.

Dear WW,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OM possible, although I take no responsibility for your choices to make it happen. I foolishly underestimated the signs of your unhappiness and was ignorant of how to best meet your most important emotional needs.

This experience has changed me greatly and I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and help create a new life for us that will meet both our needs. I will do what it takes to make our marriage work, if you will do the same. But I cannot do that until you end all communications with OM permanently.

Until then, I will not see you, talk to you or communicate with you in any form. Any required communications, such as those regarding financial arrangements or the marital property, should be given to INTERMEDIARY (whose contact information is included). INTERMEDIARY will pass any relevant information on to me and provide you with a response, if necessary.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know that I have endured great suffering since discovering your relationship with OM, and I can no longer bear to see or speak to you while knowing you are still contacting him. I still love you, do not want a divorce, and will be able to forgive you. But I simply cannot speak with you under the current circumstances.

When you are willing to permanently end all contact with OM, make efforts to prevent further infidelity and express remorse for your actions, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new life in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend. But I only want that as husband and wife; nothing else.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you refuse to stop contacting OM.

Love,
BHHFSGuy


My intention is to mail this letter to WW after she moves out later this month (sometime between Oct. 18-21). The only problem is that her new place does not have mail delivery. She will need to get a P.O. Box and I think you have to show proof of residency to get that. So there may be some time that passes before she can receive mail. Maybe I will send it to her workplace, where she starts on the 22nd.

"When you are willing to permanently end all contact with OM, make efforts to prevent further infidelity and express remorse for your actions, I will be willing to discuss our future together."

Others may disagree, but I think you are asking too much of her by what you say here. First of all, she has told you that her relationship with OM is not an affair. She hasn't been unfaithful. I have come to believe that this is part of the WS fog. Somehow, it's not an affair because an affair is always wrong and this relationship just isn't that way. It feels right. In the book, "Not Just Friends", the author says that people come to realize long afterwards that the relationship was a "garden-variety affair." At the time, as part of the fog, it seems special. It is so special that it is exempt from the ugliness of affair -- betrayal -- infidelity. Why try to get her to agree that she was unfaithful?

Second, you are asking her to show remorse. Why? She seems a long way from being remorseful as she takes another job and moves.

My recommendation would be that you say that her contact with OM is so painful TO YOU that you cannot be in contact with her while she is in contact with him. There is no judgement in that statement. This is about you. Make no contact with OM to be the one condition for reconciliation and then go on to tell her that you will do what you can to make your life together positive for both.

Tell her you care about her and want her to be happy. I remember Harley on the radio show advising a man to help his wife move. That's part of saying you want her to be happy. The idea is that you want her to be happy and so, if she cannot be happy with you, then you want her to move.

Cherishing

Post deleted by papaof3v2dot0

Post deleted by BHHFSGuy

BHHFSGuy,

I think you are dealing with a threshhold problem. Your behavior, over time, accumulated so that your wife has completely and totally given up on you, taking an out of town job and is moving.

I can tell you that I used to just love shopping at Target. I'd buy everything there. When I did try to find a deal on something, I'd often end up buying from Target anyway. Over the last couple of years, I've gotten more and more disgusted with Target -- children boots that leak before winter is over, jackets that look terrible at the end of a season and cannot be handed down, jeans that tear within two weeks, a cow hair embedded in butter, the extreme reluctance of the check out clerks to put food into paper bags instead of plastic bags... I got to the point where I expected problems. Last week, I cancelled my Target card. I hit a threshhold where the experience of shopping at Target had become so unpleasant that I just didn't want to go there anymore. I had to find other places to shop -- for food, for clothes, for household supplies. I've ended up finding different stores for food and for clothes and for household supplies. Now, maybe every once in a while, I'll go back to Target. Buying their brand of food is out of the question because not only was there a nonhuman hair embedded in the butter but one of the eggs had blood in it. I'll buy packaged and canned food with national brands only.

I hit a threshhold with Target. I also hit a threshhold with Ford. We have a Toyota now. That's a long story, too.

I think your wife hit a thresshold with you. I don't think she plans to come back. That's why your treatment of her over the next few days is so critical. That's all the time you have. The Plan B letter isn't so important as how you treat her. Let her know that you are sorry that she wasn't happy with you, that you care about her, that you want her to be happy, -- and help her move. She wants the door open, or at least to give the appearance of the door being open. Help her move.

I think also that she has created a monster in her own mind. My guess is that you weren't controlling so much as you were neglectful. You just had other priorities in your life than spending time with your wife. She couldn't justify leaving you because of neglect so she decided you were controlling. That's why also I think it is very important that you not tell her she has to admit to having an affair and that you not expect remorse.

My husband had an affair. He broke my arm. He's sworn at me hundreds and hundreds of times. The most hurtful thing he has said to me is "Leave me alone." When I asked him if he had an affair to hurt me, he said, "You weren't relevant enough to my thoughts" for me to think about how you felt. How do you think I felt when he told me that he hadn't thought about how I would react to an affair? This from a guy who broke my arm to prevent me from calling this woman. I was upset, yes, and he didn't care. He just didn't care.

I think that your wife gave up on you because she thought you didn't care, but she's still there for just a few days. Take the time to let her know that you do want her to be happy and that this was a big wake up call for you. Tell her you care about her. Then let her go. With a Plan B letter in place, it is up to her to come back to you.

I'll also add that my sister in law (married to my husband's brother) and I have gotten close enough to talk about our marriages. Despite what my husband has done, I'm not through. She is. She's preparing herself for divorce. She's just trying to keep herself sane and prepare for financial independence until the children are older. He hasn't treated her as badly as my husband has treated me, at least in that he never was physically abusive and didn't have an affair. I understand why she's done, however. Neglect is arguably worse than either infidelity or abuse. Infidelity often follows neglect because the unfaithful spouse first has decided to enjoy life away from the spouse, and infidelity often follows when another person of the opposite sex who has made that same decision crosses paths with the spouse who has given up on the marriage. Neglect, though, is so degrading that I cannot describe it. I felt as though I didn't exist. I didn't matter.

The long and short of it is this: I think you neglected her, and what you want to convey to her is that, if she gives you another chance, she will ALWAYS be your number one priority. Leave her with that thought, even in your Plan B letter. If life turns out not to be greener in LOST WAGES, CA, make it very easy for her to come back to you.

Cherishing

Cherish,

Sorry to disagree with you, but you don't understand the personality type. If there's similarities to my sitch, there's little he could have done to keep her happy. She sounded like an unhappy person from the start. She probably felt he needed to make her happy and was disappointed when he fell short. I've been in the same boat. I couldn't have been a more attentive husband. The things I did, however, were seen as obligatory by her. I missed work several times to take care of her. I let her buy anything she wanted. I let her sleep on the weekends while I took care of the kids. I let her go to clubs when we were married despite my objection to it (I joined her after a little while).

I gave and gave, yet somehow it wasn't enough. Sure, I wasn't perfect and I had my moments, but I gave everything to her. Literally. In the end, at time of D, I gave her everything. All our possessions, time with the kids, and I followed her wishes thinking it would make things amicable and help me save my family after her "time apart to heal".

There was never any genuine intent to try to restore our family.

His WW has a very similar personality, based on what he's posted here. I've been able to guess correctly on several WW's backrounds in terms of abuse and I'm pretty confident about his WW. I'm not surprised by him stating she claims to have a Mommy Dearest type mother. I wouldn't be surprised if one of her mother's boyfriends abused her growing up. It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Certain things are confusing if you are with someone who isn't very personally strong. Why do they panic when alone or lost? Why the constant trips to the doctor that can't find anything wrong, yet they never question why they can't ever find anything wrong? Why are they so untrustworthy of new acquaintances and friends?

All these things confused me for years and were a real mystery. I figured a lot of it had to do with never being on her own and going straight from home to married life. I couldn't have been more wrong.

I could have been the greatest guy in the history of the world and she would have still been unhappy to the point that she felt things weren't salvageable and she had to end the marriage.

Was I perfect? No. Were there things I needed to improve? Absolutely. Were they bad enough that she had to end the marriage? No way. Everything she ever mentioned to me was workable.

BHHHFSGUY sounds exactly the same. Unless he's not revealing something, but he's probably a normal man in a normal marriage, but normal is not good enough for someone with a personality disorder or unresolved traumas from their past.

That's my 2 cents.

What's nice about this forum is that people bring different perspectives to the problems raised by people. You may be right that his marriage is unsalvageable because his wife has a personality disorder or unresolved traumas from the past. I think that, with days until his wife moves out, it would be better for him to set those ideas aside and assume (even if the assumption is wrong) that he was at some point neglectful and to leave her with the impression that he will be attentive to her if she gives him another chance.

Cherishing

I will have much more to write later (Guess who came back to the marital bed last night?), but I just wanted to let everyone know that I am still in Plan A and will be in Plan A until after she moves out. Just because I posted my revised Plan B letter for review, and I've been making other arrangements for Plan B, it doesn't mean I have begun Plan B. I will continue to try and meet her ENs until she's gone. Once she's left, NC.

It's easier to try and meet her ENs now than it was 2 months ago, because WW's attitude has taken a 180 in the last few weeks and she is both eager to spend time with me and active in finding things to do. But it's also harder in the sense that most of what she has to converse about are details of her moving out, which are painful for me. I am emotionally guarding myself right now and not allowing her changed attitude to give me some kind of false hope that she's changed her mind about everything.

Hug her. Kiss her. Hold her. Touch her. Physical touch that doesn't lead to sex means more to me than sex. Sex is about physical pleasure. Touch is about emotional connection.

Use the word care. I care about you. I want you to be happy.

And if she gives you another chance make use of it to show a lot of attention ALWAYS. The OM sounds like a stopgap attempt to feel better because she felt so neglected by the man she chose to marry.

If she moves, she may quickly decide to move back. For some reason, and I suspect it was neglect, she didn't think you would be the person she could go to for care. Be that person now.

Cherishing

Although WW has repeatedly said that her relationship with OM was not an 'affair,' she hasn't said she wasn't unfaithful. So I don't know where you got that. In her e-mails to BFF prior to my discovery, she has specifically referred to the one physical incident as cheating on me. She has admitted it and it is undeniable by all (except OMGF).

It's only after she started reading the books I had bought that she began saying she didn't have an 'affair.' See, the books always note that the OP must be completely cut out forever, and WW has insisted from D-Day that she and OM 'will still be friends.' So how does she get around that roadblock? Well, the books use the word 'affair' and she didn't really have an affair, therefore the advice is inapplicable. She is uninterested in what any book has to say about the subject unless the relationship it describes EXACTLY mirrors the situation of her and her male CW.

First, WW are in agreement that she was unfaithful. She knows that what she did with OM that night was not acceptable for a married woman to do. Second, I am not asking her to admit that she had an 'affair.' As as been mentioned, it doesn't matter if we both call it a 'bologna sandwich.' The important thing to me is that she follows the steps to recovery from an affair, which Dr. Harley notes is a very narrow path. If she wants to call it a 'mistake' and follow the steps to recovery whole-heartedly, I will have no problem with that. But if she wants to call it a 'mistake' and NOT follow any steps to recovery, then I will have a problem with that.

So I think that asking her to take steps to prevent further infidelity is not asking too much. I don't want 'bologna sandwich' to happen again, ever. It's too painful and until she can agree to that (which she hasn't because she still wants to be "friends" with OM) I simply can't bear to be with her anymore.

Yes, she seems to be a long way from being remorseful. Um, that's why I'm going to Plan B instead of following her. Do you think I expect her to show remorse suddenly? I don't. I expect she will have to come out of the fog before she can express remorse. I will try and wait for that to happen and not go to D. But I will need to at least hear 'I'm sorry I cheated on you' or some apology for her actions. I haven't heard or read that once. I've heard 'I regret getting married so young' and read 'Why did I choose to tell BHHFSGuy?' and 'If only I would've been smarter and not gotten caught,' and the wonderful 'I wish I would've gone all the way with OM so I'd at least have that to remember.'

I have read a few threads on this site where that is the case and the BS regrets it later because the WS simply makes that one promise, returns to the BS and essentially does nothing else (and usually ends up breaking NC too). When the BS comes back here for advice, they're told 'you should've put more conditions on coming back'


Sorry, but no, this is exactly how I've already messed things up quite a bit. On D-Day, I agreed to a number of things I shouldn't have in the hopes that it would make her happy. Those included that she could continue to 'be friends' with the OM. Because surely if WW could see how pleasing and giving I was, she would return the favor...

Do I want WW to be happy? Yes. Do I want her to be happy at the expense of my own feelings? Not anymore. If I send the message that I'll do ANYTHING to make WW happy, then that's what she'll expect. Plus, if I help her move, she'll be even more confused by my NC w/her during Plan B: 'Why did you help me move out, if you were just planning to be mean and not return my calls?' Plus, it undermines my position that I do not agree with the separation. I know WW would like to tell everyone that we both agreed the separation was for the best and if I help her move out, I will only be bolstering that lie.

The reason why not to have her admit to an affair is that you are passing judgment on her by labeling the relationship something that she thinks it is not. Yes, you want her to end contact with OM. What you need to emphasize is that your feelings matter. You want her to care about you, and it hurts you terribly that she has contact with this man.

I have said many times that I want my husband to be happy but not at my expense. I made the mistake of trying to support all sorts of outside activities, and it was just natural for him to move towards enjoying lunches with a fellow co-worker. He had so conditioned himself to disregard my feelings that he simply didn't care that I was hurt by this.

The reason why I don't think you should put other conditions on the relationship is that my impression (which may be wrong) is that you are very much the man of the house, and she follows you. You would take initiative to spend time with her. What you want is a lot of enjoyable time spent together. She seems to me like someone who is so broken down that she could be on the edge of a nervous breakdown. If you push her, she could break. What you need from her is the very minimum -- a willingness to consider your feelings so that that is the only reason why she would end contact with OM because it doesn't really matter if the relationship is appropriate or not; and a willingness to spend time together as a couple enjoying each other's company. Over time, she can regain strength to face and admit to the lie and the weakness in her character that led to it. Right now, what she needs is your desire for her to be happy. She needs to see that, despite what she has done, you won't punish her but instead you will work with her to build a future that is wonderful for both. She seems to have lost hope. Give her that hope.

Cherishing

PS. I guess what strikes me is that she has taken a job and moved and yet she is so wishy-washy in not telling you she's done and now in going back into the marital bed. She is confused. How do you expect her to commit to any conditions? She needs gentle encouragement, not demands that she do this or that.

I will state again that I am not asking her to admit to an 'affair.' Where in my Plan B letter do you see that I'm asking her to admit that? Here are the three conditions I have listed: "permanently end all contact with OM, make efforts to prevent further infidelity and express remorse for your actions." Where does it say I want/need her to admit she had an affair?

And I think this paragraph of the PBL does that: "You must know that I have endured great suffering since discovering your relationship with OM, and I can no longer bear to see or speak to you while knowing you are still contacting him."


Your impression is completely wrong. I don't know where you get that impression, but it is 100 percent opposite. WW 'wears the pants' of the house, so to speak.

Been doing that for months. Still doing that. Will continue to do that until she moves out.

I have had the second willingness from her for months but have never had the first. When she moves out, I will have neither. That's why I'll be going to Plan B.


Yes, and Plan B will give her that time. During which I will not allow her to contact me and continue to hurt me with her painful words and actions.

I disagree. Right now what she wants is to BE happy. She knows I desire her to be happy. She knows I make efforts for her to be happy. Yet she is unhappy. So she is now seeking what she calls an easy solution: getting a new job, moving to a new city, leaving her H behind.


I'm confused if you think I'm not doing that and this is an admonition, or if you're just trying to remind me of what Plan A is about. I assure you that my not punishing her is exactly what I've been doing during the last 3 months. Yes, you're right that she needs to see that. That's up to her to see.


First, I don't know why you wrote that she has moved, because she hasn't moved yet. But she has specifically told me we're not done. She just wants to go be by herself and live as a single person and experience a life she didn't get to. It's called a mid-life crisis.

What demands? Do you see my request for NC as a demand? It's a request. I'm requesting that WW end all contact with OM. I've requested it for months and she has refused on every occasion to honor that request. Thus I have no choice but to enter Plan B and have no contact with WW. That was Dr. Harley's advice.

I'm very confused by your messages because they seem to run counter to the MB method. Would you have me simply give "gentle encouragement" for the rest of my life while she runs off to have fun? Is that a method of recovering a marriage that has proven results?

You seem to be saying that I should accommodate my wife's belief that she didn't have an A. Should I also accommodate her belief (and FIL's) that OM has nothing to do with her moving away? If so, I shouldn't even ask for NC, because then I'm being judgmental, unreasonable and demanding... Remember, he's just a good friend from work who she wants to continue being friends with... Should I accommodate her every belief? Being weak and appeasing is part of what got me into this situation. She has no respect for me. Bowing down and accommodating her every demand will not gain it back.

It's been a busy day for me, so this will be a quick reply with a more thoughtful one later. I equate infidelity with affair. I am recommending that you request NC with OM ENTIRELY because of how you feel and that there be no discussion about whether it was an affair or infidelity or a bologna sandwich.


Cherishing

This may take some time to compose because it almost makes my skin crawl to reply to you. Your situation brings up some very bad memories of mine, and so it is important for me to separate my memories of being told things like "The only thing we agree on is that you get to do what you want" (that's something my husband said last week) and what I see in what you write. In order to do that, I'll try to stick closely to the actual words you use. I'll come back and revise this later.

First of all, your language is laced with what I would consider disrespectful. I've been on the receiving end of this sort of talk for all of my marriage, which is why I am so sensitive to seeing it in print. Here are some examples:


WW wears the pants of the family, so to speak.
That's up to her to see.
It's called a mid-life crises.
...while she runs off to have fun.
Being weak and appeasing is what got me into this situation.
Bowing down and accomodating her every demand...

These words are just from your last post. What you are doing, and again I see this in my husband so I am trying very hard not to attribute traits to you that I've seen in him, is you don't describe what is going on. Instead, you give your interpretation. For example, what exactly have you done to be weak and appeasing. What exactly has she done to show that she wears the pants in the family?

I cannot tell you just how degrading it is to be on the receiving end of judgements, time after time after time.

Cherishing

Cherishing,

I think this is BGuy's place to vent. Living with an unrepentant WW is a very frustrating and humiliating ordeal. From what he has told me, he doesn't act this way towards her, instead he is in full plan A mode. I too can sense a lot of anger and frustration in his posts. Let him vent here. He's been through he11. I know what it's like firsthand.

I have refrained from getting too caught up in specific details from the past for a couple of reasons. First, remembering all the hurt from the past is painful and causes me to lose my love for her and consider just giving up and getting a D. Second, I don't want to fall victim to only remembering the bad things, and ignoring the good things. Third, specifics can be very personal and there are a couple of friends and family members who are following this thread and I would rather them not know some things. (Those people, and they know who they are, are strongly advised to not read the rest of this post).

That having been said, here's a quote from WW in a February e-mail to OM that I think sums it up pretty well: "You do not need to be concerned about BHHFSGuy and any kind of 'awkwardness.' I can handle him, and I should certainly be able to do what I want. Remember, I'm the one running the show at my house!"

So, the concept of WW 'running the show' or 'wearing the pants' or whatever phrase is not just some disrespectful judgment of my own or figment of my imagination.

Here's another quote from a later e-mail to BFF: "OM finally took me out to lunch a couple of weeks back (after more than two months of nothing). When he asked me, I acted nonchalant about it, saying 'Maybe...' just to see what he would do. He accused me of playing hard to get (which I was ... it freaks me out that he's so good at seeing through me like that ... he's better at it than BHHFSGuy)."

Yes, it hurts. To be told again and again that everything is my fault.

So would you qualify this statement as a judgment: "I think you neglected her." If I seem defensive about this, it's because I feel as though I've tried and tried for years to make her happy, often at the expense of my own happiness. I never spoke up about how her words and actions hurt my feelings. And now someone I don't know tells me I neglected my W.

I don't want to cause anyone here any more pain, especially a BS. Your situation sounds awful. But please don't confuse me with your WH. I am open to listening to all advice, but that doesn't mean I will always agree with what everyone says. And if someone gives advice based on an assumption that I find misguided, I hope they don't take it personally if I take issue with it. I don't agree with everything everyone says, that's impossible.

I appreciate the explanation and apologize for the pain of your recollecting it. What you said changes my perception. All I can say is something I have told myself over the years: "If you choose your marriage over your own dignity, you will lose both." I am doing very little different from what I did before and during the affair. What I am doing is not agreeing to participate in what is negative for me and not trying to be supportive of (that is, pretending to agree to) what is negative for me. I equated love with sacrifice. The more I sacrificed, the more I thought I demonstrated love, and the less and less respect my husband had for me.

Cherishing

These words of yours are applicable to me. I believed very much the same thing: That the sacrifices I was making of my own personal happiness were acceptable for the greater good of my marriage and to make WW happy. That it would be selfish and unappreciative of me to express any feelings of unhappiness.

I believed that God himself meant for us to be together, because surely he would've provided me with some kind of sign that we shouldn't during the five years we dated. Yet I stopped praying during meals because it made WW uncomfortable. I stopped attending church because it made WW uncomfortable. Would God really want me to give up those things in order to make WW happy?

I assumed that by letting my giver be in charge, so to speak, WW would recognize that and reward me in kind. Instead, I believe it caused her to lose all respect for me. Ephesians 6:33 notes that a husband must love his wife, but the wife must respect her husband. Although I loved WW, she lost her respect for me, and I think that is the main reason why I'm here today. So when I wrote that appeasement got me into this mess, that's what I mean. Even when we were dating, WW would sometimes make me choose between my family obligations and her.

Have you read Dr. James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough"? I know that it is now two decades old, but I believe most of it stands the test of time. Specifically, it talks about how panic and appeasement, while natural responses (and certainly where I was four months ago), are rarely successful in repairing the damage that has occurred and are usually counterproductive.

Yes, I read "Love Must Be Tough". I have the tapes. I listened to them before we got married.

My needs, my wants, my desires simply were not considered -- and yet my husband has said over and over and over "All that matter is you get what you want." My way of countering that has been to say I will give up anything he views as negative.

I don't think it is wrong of you to give up praying during meals or attending church. Showing a willingness to give up whatever your spouse wants you to give up reduces the ability of the spouse to play what I came to think of as "the chit game". In other words, tit for tat.

I don't know what to say except that I am very moved by your story. It is not selfish of you to consider your needs as well as hers. The fact that she would continue in a relationship with OM when she knows you know it was inappropriate shows how little she considers your feelings. Infidelity is often just the tip of the iceburg as far as inconsiderate behavior, and that's what is seems in your case and what it was in mine.

If you continue in Plan A, right up until she moves, she may be very surprised that you will have nothing to do with her. That can be the start of a win-win relationship. I really like Harley's book Buyers Renters and Freeloaders (it might now be called The One) because it talks about the POJA and how that is critical to the success of a marriage. For most people, the Taker takes over. For us, the Giver was so strong that we were pushed to our limits.

What I have seen with my husband is that he wanted to return to the status quo pre-affair -- in other words, he did what he pleased and I tried to be supportive. He viewed his affair as his "one mistake" rather than the tip of the iceburg of inconsiderate behavior. I wouldn't return to that life again.

For you, this move -- whether she goes through with it or not -- can be the start for you of win-win. I came to think of it as win-win or no-deal. Plan B is definitely no deal. If she returns, or if she doesn't go, I'm not encouraging you to put up with how she has treated you in the past. What I'm saying is not to lay down Harley's rules as conditions for the marriage. I doubt she'll agree to much. You can simply be with her when she is willing to follow the POJA and remove yourself from her when she is not. That's what I'm doing now.

Cherishing

BG,

Your posts scare me sometimes with the similarities to my ex. I went through the exact same thing in terms of church and religion (among other things).

EXWW scoffs now that I want to teach those values to my kids. She claims I wasn't religious when we were married, yet neglects to mention the eye rolling and huffing and puffing whenever I suggested we go to mass. I quit trying after a while and simply settled on being able to do it when the kids were older.

Cherishing, you're projecting a lot of yourself on to his WW. Ironic since BG is the betrayed one here.

Men and women see things very differently. You can connect with the pain she must feel as a wayward of not being cherished (allegedly) or feeling neglected. The attention women get in an affair can be like water to a person in the desert.

Men, I believe, fall for different reasons. My father's affairs were about conquest and the thrill of the chase (his words). He had one main mistress, but tons of others on the side. He cheated on every single woman he's ever been married to, my mom happened to be the first, followed by the mistress, followed by his latest wife (which I happen to like).

I don't believe men stray so much out of an emotional void from something their wife is lacking. There's a void there, obviously, but I don't believe affairs for men result from the same reasons as affairs for women.

That being said, your input is valuable, but I caution you on "projecting".

This forum is BG's place to vent. As it is mine. I say things here I would never say elsewhere. I post emails to my ex here in order to get opinions before I send them. Sometimes they're straight vents. Other times they're simply my feelings of sadness.

I put myself in danger from a legal standpoint by continuing to post here, knowing my ex reads my posts, but the input I provide others helps me tremendously. I don't want other men to go through what I went through and make the same mistakes I did.

BG, I give you a lot of credit. You've managed to keep your dignity in this thing. That's admirable and something I envy since I humiliated and emasculated myself in trying to keep my WW happy. You can walk away with pride with how you've conducted yourself in this mess.

A final thought to you: My ex is an agnostic. She has no beliefs of any kind. She's made it difficult for me to teach my children their religion. I encourage you to keep this very much in mind when in plan B. You likely want to have children someday. You probably want to raise them Christian. How difficult will that be with a WW who rolls her eyes or "feels uncomfortable" because you do things such as pray before meals or attend church.

I really hope Plan B serves to help you emotionally separate from this shell of a Godless woman who is a lost soul. Believe me, there's plenty of them out there who aren't. Your future children deserve someone who will teach them their religion and be an example to them. That's not going to happen with a woman who doesn't value religion. She has no conscience and no concept of the magnitude of her sin and its potential eternal consequences. (If there are any, I'm not God to judge)

But keeps this in mind: A woman who marries in a church and has no belief in God is simply putting on a show for the friends and family. There is no truth to her words or meaning to her of a promise made before God.

Believe me, I'm not the most religious person in the world, but do value it and believe strongly in it's value as establishing a blueprint for children and for yourself on how to live your life. None of that matters to a person without religion, such as your WW. I would much rather be married to someone of a radically different faith than one of no faith at all.

I belive you will come out of this ok. You will be just fine and will look back at her leaving as potentially one of the best things that could have happened to you.

I honestly have no idea if I would try to save my marriage if I could go back in time to the d-day. I really believe I might have followed through with the divorce and done much more to preserve my visitation with my kids. Some souls simply cannot be saved and will forever be lost. I don't mean that in the biblical sense, just as a statement of how some people are incorrigible. I lost time with my kids and material possessions, but I can walk away knowing I was not unfaithful and I did try to be a good husband.

Our big mistakes, BG, Cherishing, is that we as givers ofen neglect our own needs and wants and are in a constant state of appeasement or aplogizing for our controlling spouses. It's a flaw we need to remedy before being happy with someone else. It's ok to occasionally say, "I want to do things this way" or "I don't agree with that path".

Just my thoughts for the morning. Keep us up to speed with how you're doing BG.

Yes, I recognized there was some projecting. BG was using some of the same language as my husband. I see the potential here for his wife to have a completely different perspective on the situation than BG.

As I said in my prior post, I have found that it is important to find win-win solutions. You cannot control your spouse making inconsiderate choices, but you can remove yourself. My mother once said what is now so incredibly obvious to me: "If he swears at you when you are on the phone, HANG UP!"

This must be an increadibly difficult time for you, BG. I want to assure you that sometimes it is darkest before the dawn. Whether she stays or goes through with the move, there can be a break with the past. No more going along with what is negative for you. At minimum, you can remove yourself.

Cherishing

On Friday, 10/5, WW and I went to see a concert in the big city. This was a concert by a band she has liked more than I and she had purchased the tickets herself a couple of months ago (normally she requests that I purchase the tickets because it's too much trouble for her to set up an account, etc.) We actually attended a concert there not long after I discovered her cheating, but prior to D-Day (though she suspected I knew). So I was worried there would be some weird memories or bad feelings, but instead we had a very nice time, didn't get as cold as before and WW bought herself a t-shirt.

The next day, Saturday, WW drove over to the company condo she's going to move into. She wanted to get a look inside of the place to see what items were provided (dishes, bed, microwave) and what were not (glasses, silverware) and how much room there will be for any other items like media racks or a bedside table. She also took a few containers of her things and packed the chains since it was supposed to be snowing there. I used the time to clean out the desktop computer of all my web site passwords and other personal detritus. However, I did leave all our old personal correspondence on there, such as e-mails and chats from our college days. And, of course, our photos. I've noticed over the past few months that she'll look through our online photo galleries on occasion.

She returned around 6 p.m. and we went to go to dinner at a place that had just opened in town. Unfortunately, the wait was about 110 minutes to be seated, so we took off and went to a pizza place WW suggested that has become a regular haunt for us in the last few months. After we got back home, we watched some TV on DVD but were both so tired we fell asleep on the couches during SNL (sadly, the monologue).

I had planned to get some things done on Sunday morning but got up pretty late because it was unseasonably cold and I was tired from the night before. So I had a bit of a lazy day. I had no activities for the two of us planned since we'd just had the big concert outing on Friday night (and another big city concert planned for Wednesday night) and WW needed to spend some time at work. I spent most of the time using our desktop computer, so it was arguably my laziest day of Plan A to date. Plus I hadn't shaved in a few days due to there being little hot water.

Later that night, though, I did some laundry, and when I brought the dried clothes up to our bed to fold them, WW was laying down on her side of the bed resting. This was new to me, as WW has essentially avoided even sitting on the bed when I'm in the room. I didn't say anything, though, and just kept folding the laundry while she stared at me. Eventually I started getting ready for bed and WW stayed there. She asked if I was tired and I said I was just going to lay down until I fell asleep. She asked if I wanted her to leave and I said I did not. I don't want to give TMI because it might read a little unseemly (and CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS that wish to not know even TLI may want to just skip to the final three paragraphs). I did not initiate any contact with WW, just lay there as she looked at me. I did this mainly because of the things WW said back in August when I returned to the bedroom and she left ('I'm supposed to believe you're just going to lay there and not try and snuggle up?') Slowly, slowly s-l-o-w-ly, after a l-o-n-g time of tentative touching on her part, she kissed me on the lips for the first time in ... don't remember anymore. During this time, she asked me questions like 'Is this weird?' and made statements like 'I'm just so confused.' I tried to make it a very safe environment and assured her that although it was a little weird, that feeling was to be expected, and also that I understand she is confused and it's normal to feel that way. After a certain level of SF, she asked if she should go back to the other room to sleep and I assured her that I would not prefer that and wanted her to stay the night in our bed with me, which she did. So the first night in months that she's slept in the same bed with me is somehow the same day I made the least amount of effort in Plan A, was the most unkempt, and followed a weekend where we did very little together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The whole thing was definitely a huge surprise (in a good way). And it certainly WAS weird for me because I've spent the last few months not expecting any of my ENs to be met, as you're supposed to do in Plan A, or for WW to expend any effort to do so. So I was a little unprepared for how to deal with this unexpected turn of events.

On Monday, WW was showing even more affection. That evening I invited her to watch TV in our bed with me. She accepted and things went much the same way, but moreso. She again asked if she should go back to the other bedroom and I again noted I would prefer she stay in our bed with me. She said she would need to bring her alarm clock back in and did so.

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday have all been roughly the same, but with less-and-less hesitation on her part (and mine). And since I have often written posts at night when I've been alone, that's one reason I haven't been able to write this update.

I'm certainly surprised by this turn of events, as WW is now actively seeking to meet my ENs. She's not only being affectionate, but also giving admiration, being interested in my activities and actively offering to pay for things like parking, dinner, etc. I'm not sure what accounts for this, but it all began on 9/19: the day after WW accepted the new job, told me about it, and I revealed to her that I had read most/all of her e-mails and knew a lot more than what she had let on. That was the same day she changed her password and I haven't had access since. Also, the last phone call she made to OM was a one-minute call on 9/7.

We have talked very little about the future, as I do not initiate any conversation about it. I did bring up how I'd prefer that we not split up the insurance and the phone plans (since it'd cost me more money) and that it'd just be easier if she mailed me a check for her share of those bills (and the TiVo she's taking). She was agreeable to that, but noted that she might want to change phone companies anyway, as the service where she's moving to isn't as good.

Despite this week, my plans are unchanged, because she has said nothing about changing her plans. I have an appointment on Wednesday morning to sign the lease on a new apartment. That is the same day as her last day at current workplace, which she confirmed with me tonight. She has yet to make the list of items she's going to take, which is not too urgent since I'm not pre-emptively moving out anymore. I will try and have a very enjoyable final weekend with her, but don't have anything pre-planned since originally I was going to be in Plan B at this point. If I still don't have any details from her after this weekend, I'll probably gently ask about when she's planning to move out. Or is that still too much pressure?

P.S. I can't seem to edit the subject of the original post anymore. Help?

After a certain period of time, it doesn't let you edit your previous posts.

That being said, I don't know what to make of your situation. It is certainly a good sign, and it shows her hesitation to leave you. That being said, going to plan B now might be a risk if things continue to escalate even after she moves out. Plan B, however, is about protecting your feelings, so you need to decide what's best for you. I would definitely try to call up the Harleys to figure out how best to proceed, but if you can't pony up the $180 for an hour with Steve, you can call into Willard's radio program (10-1 central time) and probably get about 20 minutes of good conversation with him. Whatever happens, I want to commend you for doing a great plan A and fighting for your marriage.

BG:
It sounds to me that she wants the option to return to you if and when she pleases. What she doesn't seem to understand -- YET -- is that she will be able to return if and when she is willing to create a marriage in which both are happy. If and when she goes, you might want to focus on your career. I suspect that part of the reason she may have lost respect for you is that she earns more money than you do. One change you might want to implement if and when she returns is that there is no your money and my money. It's all our money.

What exactly changed when you got married? I think Harley's book The One would give you a lot of insight. She seems to think she has a boyfriend whom she can dump and come back to whenever she pleases and under any conditions she chooses. I woudn't express interest in when she is planning to move out. Just let her go.

Cherishing

BHHFSGuy,

I agree w/ Jim.

I think you might want to reconsider going to Plan B at this time. I also think calling Dr. Harley is a good idea.

There was another poster here named MywifeIlove who planned A his WW while she was living elsewhere. He did such a good job of it that when he finally went to Plan B, she dropped OM like a hot potato, and went back to MywifeIlove.

Here are his threads, if you'd like to read them. The last one is where he went back to Plan A after his WW moved out.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

~ Marsh

It strikes me as extremely bizarre that you find this extremely bizarre.

~ Marsh

I agree that she wants the door to remain open. During the joint session with the counselor, when I said she still wanted 'to go and not be with me anymore' she corrected me by saying 'Not anymore' and then after the session tried to convince me that her leaving was not a permanent thing, just something she needed to do because she knew getting away from her job & our city would be an easy way to fix her unhappiness.

I also agree with that. It is a problem with our M that will need to be rectified on recommitment.

Again, I agree that I'll have to get that book. Essentially, nothing changed when we got married. I remember thinking that when a younger friend asked me how marriage was. 'I don't know, it doesn't seem any different than before we were married.'

Wow, bad timing. Now my thread has Plan B in the title right when I'm starting to reconsider it...

Thanks jmwc95. You've been steadfastly following my thread for a long time and I appreciate all the posts you've made.

I will either try to arrange a phone counseling session with Steve or call into the radio program again now that things have veered off the textbook path.

You can always start a new thread with your name as the lead in the title and a generic title overall.

I still think Plan B lite may be in order when she leaves. Perhaps not as dark as a standard Plan B, but a hybrid A/B plan. In other words, you rarely call her and give her attention, but are kind and friendly when she calls you.

Just a thought. Talking to the Harley's may be in order.

Granted, I get the impression that this is all show prior to leaving. I experienced a little bit of kindness and affection from the ex before she bailed. No real SF, but there was some snuggling and affection.

Don't read too much into her behavior. She's going to feel "free" when she leaves and will probably dive head first into trying to contact OM.

Could be wrong. Hope that I am.

I've started a new thread in case anyone on GQII is not viewing this current thread due to the subject being displayed (My revised Plan B Letter)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/rem...mp;Main=3319601