BGuy,

Yes, I've experienced the same situation.

Everything your WW has said, my WW said similar things. My WW is very intelligent, beautiful and successful person. In Dec '04, she told me she hated her job and wanted to look for another one. I said great. After 3 months of looking she said I've narrowed it down 2 jobs, both a thousand miles away. She did not even look for one near where we lived. I said, well, I'm more than willing to move with you. In Mar '04 I got the ILYBNILWY speech. A week later I got, I've accepted that job, but there's no need for you to come with me. This company is opening an office where we live and I'll be back in 3 months. Which got extended to 4 months. In July '05 I found her love letters from OM. Two years later and she still isn't back home and our M is nowhere.

Here's what I learned. My WW was extremely detached from me, resented the he** out of me and basically hated my guts. I was not the best husband in the world, but I wasn't that bad. My WW felt that way for years and never said it. There were no signs that she felt this way. Yet, even though she hated my guts, she doesn't want to hurt my feelings. She is worried about whether I'll be okay. This was very confusing to me. I plan A'd myself to no end. I kept thinking I can fix this.

Its probably not that simple. She needs to fix some things about herself and she's terrified about doing it. She's in fight or flight mode now and she's going to run.

The correct plan, is to Plan A for now. Resist any separation under any terms. I tried for years to plan A with us being separated, and while it does help, it doesn't have a real strong effect. The 15 hours together a week, being together every day is essential.

You can't stop her from leaving, so establish the no separation as your boundary. If she breaks that boundary go to plan B. Get yourself ready for plan B. Squirrel away some money, start looking for second jobs, etc.

Finally, if you want to know more. Tell me more about your M and your WW prior to d-day. Does your WW have any friends she has had for many years? What's her family like? Is she close to them? Did everything in your M seem okay prior to d-day. Does your WW like you to have the things you want, but seems frugal about buying things for herself. Has your WW ever been to IC? Have you been spending less and less time together over the years? How did you treat your WW? AO's, DJ's, etc,? Does she procrastinate on some things? Did she ever lie to you before? Maybe not big things, but little things?

My wife's career is in the newspaper industry and there's only so many newspapers (1 per large area, generally) so when she advances her career it has always meant (and still does) that we have to move away from our current location.

On DDay, my WW said a lot of stuff like that, re-writing history. But I don't know how much to believe, because a lot of it was clearly fog-talk. When I told her 'I wish you would've told me all this a long time ago' she said she just didn't want to hurt me. Obviously, cheating on me has hurt me way, way, way worse. She continues to express concern over my future and said she doesn't want me to hate her if we break up.

I know she has issues to deal with (parents divorced young, mother abandoned her, mid-life crisis) and she said she knows she's screwed up because of all that. But she has refused to see an IC or MC up to now because 'what could they tell me I don't already know?' My IC is 'stuck' with me right now and asked her to come in and talk so he could get her side of the story and get 'unstuck'. She has (very reluctantly) agreed to do so. But I worry she'll give the old 'I tried counseling and it didn't work' line.

I'm definitely getting the picture that I cannot successfuly Plan A if she moves away.

Thanks for these tips. Even though I know I will need to go to Plan B, I don't know the specifics of how to do so. How do I communicate to her that I don't want her to leave me behind w/o it being a Selfish Demand or Ultimatum?

WW has one longtime best friend from gradeschool. BFF actually hooked us up in high school. Unfortunately, WW confided in BFF during EA and BFF supported her by encouraging it and disparaging me. BFF's H is also now poisoned against me (I don't think he knows the full truth of the situation). They are our closest mutual friends and I don't know what to do about that situation either. Right now my M takes priority, so I'm trying to concentrate solely on that. But WW hasn't communicated much with BFF in a while, either.

WW is not particularly close with her family, especially because we have moved so far away from their home. They never come and visit but always expect us to. WW's Father didn't even call or send a card on her 30th Birthday. She gets occasional, lengthy e-mails from her sisters, but she is not in regular contact with them. None of her family members know what's going on. They haven't heard from her in months but that's just typical for them.

Not everything but I was completely blindsided when I discovered the infidelity.

Actually, it's more of the opposite. When an unexpected money issue would arise (car repairs, etc.) she would usually say 'Oh, I guess I have to pay for it, huh?!' She often felt like I was freeloading off her. She wanted to go on nice vacations and I couldn't afford to assist, so she would pay for most of it and then resent me for it.

She had a bad experience with IC at young age after parents divorced, which is why she refuses to see one nowadays.

Actually, much more. We had a long-distance relationship all during college, so we didn't see each other that much. After we moved in together, our newspaper shifts were in opposition, so we rarely saw each other during the week. When we moved here it was so she could get normal hours and we could be together more often.

That depends on who you ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I always thought I treated her very well. I never criticized her and always supported every choice she made. When she gained weight, I always told her she was pretty. (Now that she's lost weight she thinks I just like her for her looks) I've never told her that she did anything wrong, but she feels like I've been silently judging her (I am a Christian and she mostly isn't)

Does never doing something count as procrastinating? She hasn't opened the boxes of the exercise equipment she bought a couple of years ago. She has DVD box sets she hasn't opened. She balances her checkbook once every 7+ months. She'll leave her mail pile up for months.

I don't think so, but I don't know anymore. She says she didn't lie to me about seeing OM secretly, it's just that I never asked her where she was. I trusted her implicitly.

BGuy,

Ok, I get the part about the newspaper job.

I know in my sitch I found this all very perplexing. My WW was cheating on me, but didn't want to hurt me??? My WW said she had no intention of being with OM, yet wouldn't end contact??? I was such a bad husband, but she wanted to make sure I was okay and still loved me??? She wanted to leave me, but still wanted to be friends???

Okay, yes this may be fog, yes it may be cake eating, yes she may be manipulating you. Or, she may have some deep emotional issues that is causing all this. It is tempting to assume the later and then adjust your plan. Delving into what is going with her may increase this temptation. So, I would advise sticking to your plan and set some dates for things.

How do you go about it. Plan A first, and there are tons of posts out here for how long to do that. (I mean if she keeps contacting OM you may have to go to plan B before she leaves) As part of your plan A do not discuss separation. If she still insists on leaving, do not tell her what you are going to do. i.e. don't agree to keep in touch or don't tell you won't speak to her. Others may have better advise, but I wouldn't help her move, etc. Simply tell her you don't agree with the decision. If she still leaves, I would wait a day or two after she is gone and then send her a plan B letter. Anyway, others may have better tips.

As to the other questions. It does sound to me like your WW was having an exit affair. I imagine her expectation was for you to throw her out the minute you found out. But I don't really suscribe too much to exit affair or not. The key message here seems to be "I need to be away from you." Underlying that is usually a high level of resentment.

So, on one hand, maybe you "earned" that resentment and on the other, maybe she "created" that resentment. Most likely its a mix of both. If you "earned" it, then you probably had a lot AO's or DJ's or other LB's or failing to me EN's etc. If she created it, she is most likely a P/A, or a conflict avoider, or a "giver".

I think generally you can sum up P/A, conflict avoider, etc. as a person who is not authentic. They have an inability to be their real self. A bunch of things can cause this, low self esteem, family environment, defense mechanism, etc. Usually you can spot this because it makes it difficult to be successful. However, people who are unauthentic and successful are very hard to spot. The successful ones have become very good at playing a part. They very much want to be liked. However, this is very stressful. The more they hide theirselves the more stressed they become. They become terrified of being found out. The become terrified that if someone really knew them they wouldn't like them. So every few years, they get away from everyone they know. But they really want to make a pleasant exit so that everyone will still like them. They start to resent you because you are starting to find out who they really are.

I fear your WW may be like this. But this is a very tough nut to crack. Its almost impossible for you to be an amateur therpist for them. If they see IC, it can take years for the therapists to spot this, and usually ones the therpists does, they say they hate the therpist and quit going.

I don't know if any of this sounds off the mark or not. If so, I can give some advice on what has helped for me.

This is basically what I would say:

I am going to follow you just like always if you get another job. I made a commitment to love you for better or for worse, and I'm sticking to that commitment. I want to stick you to that commitment as well. Of course I can't control what you do, but know right now that you are either my wife or nothing to me and people will know the TRUTH of what happened. I will not be agreeable to any separation, as I see it as an excuse to act like you are single and see other people. Of course I am hurting right now, but you haven't ruined my life. I am sure that we can rebuild our relationship and make it better than it ever was before. This is where I stand, and it will not change.

Then you don't have to have these conversations every other day.

Those are all practically verbatim from my WW. It's heartening to know that others have been in my shoes before me. I just wish no one else would have to be in them afterwards.

Thanks for these specifics. Knowing these kind of things puts my mind more at ease because I'm more prepared for the inevitable.

Yes, it's a mix of both. I recognize that I wasn't meeting her top ENs. I was working quite hard to meet ENs that it turned out were very low on her list. At the same time, she was not communicating her needs to me effectively, and instead assumed I knew and was actively choosing that course. I assure you, though, she is not a "giver," as I am the conflict avoider (didn't think there was a problem with that until now).

Thank you so much for those words. They will be good responses for many of the things WW has been saying. I've been having a hard time stating things like that because I don't want to LB. WW has complained about how I 'lecture' her, so I've been very cautious with what I say and how I say it.

Per Plan A, I do not initiate conversations about the M, but I always try to engage if WW initiates. But sometimes her remarks seem passing in nature, so I'm not sure if I should reply or just let them wash over me.

WW has refused to see IC or MC since D-Day (6/8/07) citing numerous reasons/excuses (bad childhood experience, doesn't have time, doesn't think insurance covers it, what's the point, what can a counselor tell her she doesn't already know, etc.)

I began seeing an IC and her resistance lessened slightly: 'If you say it's helping you, maybe I'll think about it.' She always wants to know everything I talk about with IC.

After the third/latest session, IC told me he was 'stuck' and didn't know what advice to give. He told me to ask WW if she'd come in and talk with him so he could get the other side of the story and get 'unstuck'. WW reluctantly agreed to do so: 'I guess you can't have another session unless I go in and talk with him.'

Her session with him is today and I'm expecting she'll say she gave it her best shot but it was pointless, ask me 'Are you happy now?' and resolve to not do any more counseling.

I recognize that I cannot force her to do anything she doesn't want to do. What things should I say or not say in response? What should I be prepared for?

Her: It was a waste of time.

You: If you aren't looking for help, I'm sure it will be.

OR

You: It usually takes more than one session to accomplish anything.

OR

You: I'm sorry you feel that way.

You need to stop reacting to your WW's jabs. Lovingly detach from her. If she wants to get a rise out of you or talk divorce or separation, just ignore her. If she wants to engage in a normal conversation with you, indulge her. That way she'll learn how to talk to you. If she disrespects you, you'll ignore her and if she treats you like a person, she'll get something back.

I was happily surprised this evening to discover that WW did NOT think her session with my IC this afternoon was a waste of time. She has already agreed to have another session with him next week. This is despite the fact that IC doesn't accept her insurance company so she has to pay the session price out of pocket. I am very heartened by this change in attitude.

Wow, BHHFSGuy... this is wonderful.

You're W needs IC, and this will hopefully be very helpful.

Bob Pure just updated his toolkit... you should check it out. Lots of fantastic stuff there.

I don't have much else to add that hasn't already been said. Your W wanting to leave is typical. She can't face the pain she has caused. It's a typical conflict-avoidant reaction. It's much easier emotionally to leave and start over alone then it is to stay in the M and work through the pain. I was the same way. My H told me that he was never going to let me go and I was full of horsesh*t. Boy, did that make me angry. Once I got through withdrawl and got on ADs things were much better. H always supported me but also took care of himself, which made me respect him tremendously (he did a great Plan A without knowing it.) Today, he is my hero for not letting me go. Don't let your W go! She is a like a broken crack addict right now, and needs you more than anything.

I'm so happy to hear the counseling was a success. Hopefully this will "unstick" your sessions as well.

Blessings,

KM

Katie_Mae,

Thanks for your words of support and encouragement. I've been reading the stories of various MB members and was curious if you or your DH had a thread. While I was looking at some of your older posts, I found one describing how you had disparaged your DH to some of your friends during the A and had also told others about it.

The reason this is interesting to me is because another issue I'm dealing with (as if I don't have enough!) is that WW originally told her longtime best girl friend (from grade school) about her first lunch with the co-worker that was held secret from me. The BFF told WW that CW probably had feelings for her and/or was in love with her. BFF encouraged WW to try and initiate more meetings with him and not tell me anything. After the EA became a PA, BFF told WW to 'just think of yourself' and not to 'settle' for me. When I discovered this and communicated with BFF (who is a mutual friend of ours from high school and actually got us together in the first place) that I was devastated by the betrayal of someone who called me their friend, she became very angry ... not to me, but vented it to WW, saying that I need to get off my moral high horse and I was completely out of line to expose to OMGF. She also vented to her H about how hurtful I was to her and he is now quite angry with me as well because I've upset a pregant woman (I found out she was pregnant a couple of weeks after discovery of the A).

I have kept this issue on the backburner, since I'm more focused on saving my M than saving my friendship with her. The small amount of advice I've seen on the topic says to simply cut out friends that support the A. But if my goal is R, how can I possibly cut this person out of my life and my WW not?

Do you have any advice on how to handle this situation? BFF's advice to my WW helped lead to the A and I feel like BFF still has a bad influence on WW because she tells WW that 'You have to think of yourself first and foremost and ALWAYS...and then possibly consider how the other might be feeling.'

This is the issue that my IC got stuck on.

This will be a boundry for recovery if you get there.

Her best friend is not a friend to your marriage. She has to go.

Someone who supports an affair is no friend. Do you really need a friend with no integrity, honesty, or character?
Neither does your wife...

Tell BFFH what she told you WW and tell him to keep his eye on her because she will stray as well. Tell him that BFF is no longer a friend of you marriage and WW would probably be a bad influence on his marriage.

BHHFSGuy,

One of my best friends from high school was supportive of me as I was going through the A, although she never approved of what I was doing (she didn't abandon me, would listen to me, tell me to try and work things out with H, didn't approve of OM.) She has since been diagnosed with schizophrenia, and our friendship is somewhat lost now. She is one of the people I apologized to as I went through recovery. She is thrilled H and I worked things out.

Lexxxy is right. You have to wait until you are closer to recovery. However, I also think this friend should be kicked to the curb. She is not a friend to your M AT ALL. I might even suggest beginning to set up boundaries for yourself regarding this friend. Like, if your W brings her around, tell your W that she is not a friend to the M and she is not allowed in your house. Make this about you and the M right now, instead of your W's relationship with her friend. "I'm sorry, she betrayed us and I can't have her in my house, calling my house, she can call you on your cell phone if you want to be friends with someone with such low moral character, etc." Stick up for yourself and your M. Your W will be angry, but she will respect you if you "man up" about it... just my thoughts as a FWW. When my H "manned up" I really listened, because he was typically such a laid back, non-confrontational kind of guy. While it ruined the fantasy for me (which made me angry) it also made me want to follow him and listen to him.

What have you said to your W about her friend so far? Have you said anything? Does she come around your house?

KM

also, my DH doesn't have a thread. I tried to lead him here but he thought it was too "Christian."

BFF and H live hundreds of miles away, and neither have visited in more than a year due to financial strain. I don't have to worry about any friends coming over because neither WW nor I have friends where we live, just friendly co-workers...

But she has asked about coming to visit us in Sept. or Oct., so it's something I have to figure out. As to not allowing her in my house, the problem there is that WW pays the rent for our place, so I think she'd not only be angry that I'd say that, but also find it ridiculous. And one of WW complaints about our M prior to A is that she felt like I was freeloading off her (I only make 30K/year).

I've told WW that I feel like BFF stabbed me in the back and unless BFF tells me she is sorry that I don't see how I could still be friends with her. Because she got so angry the last time I wrote her about it, I have simply avoided writing to her about that issue. Instead I have kept to non-controversial topics like what WW and I are doing for the weekend, what movies we've seen. Since she's pregnant, it seems like if I say anything slightly 'mean' to her, I'm a giant @$$.

After I communicated with BFF that I knew her involvement, she was very non-communicative with WW. She's told WW that she's just too busy and tired from being pregnant but also admitted that she was a little scared to do so because I knew so much. She has continually asked WW if I've told other people (which I haven't yet). She also told WW that she wants to still remain friends with me even if WW and I divorce ... but she doesn't think it's the right time to tell me that.

Believe me, I've thought about it! After I found out that H was angry at me, I wanted to call him up and set him straight because I knew he had a skewed version of the story where I was a villainous monster and his W was a helpful saint.

But as most of us BSs know, those unfamiliar with infidelity think it can never happen to them and generally completely ignore advice from those who've experienced it. And a husband is always going to be protective of his W, especially a pregnant one, so I'm pretty sure it would be pretty pointless to try and set him straight.

I think it would also look vengeful to all involved and wouldn't help getting WW to R. Of course, they haven't had much communication in the last couple of weeks and BFF has been worried by my WW's silence to her. BFF is now saying things like 'I don't want to say too many bad things about BHHFSGuy in case you guys get back together' and 'I don't want to look like BHHFSGuy's worst enemy'

If she does start back in with convincing my WW to leave me, I think I'll have no choice but to confront both BFF and BFFH and explain to them that I'm trying to save my marriage and at least one of them is an enemy of that effort.

No way... it IS your house. You live there. It's yours.

I make more $ than my husband, and that has no bearing on how much ownership he has or doesn't have in our home. We are MARRIED.

The unequalness in your relationship says something about trust, or lack of trust. H and I had seperate bank accounts for years. We had "his" stuff and "her" stuff. When we got into MC, we were told we had to fix this right away. No more "I make this and you don't" and dividing assets... we now share everything. This is what married people do.

BFF is no friend to the M, and I would NOT accept her back into your life or M. She sounds immature and selfish... "I don't want to say too many bad things in case you guys stick it out"... what kind of friend is that... to you or your W?

Your W will see this one day, if she begins to work on her recovery. For now, just enforce YOUR boundaries... do NOT let this person in your home. Let your W know that BFF is not a friend to the M, so she is no friend to you. Be a broken record about this. I would stop saying you want an apology for BFF's behavior... there is nothing she could do or say to make things okay... the damage is done, and you've seen her true colors. She is no longer welcome in your M.

BHHFS Guy,

What's new? How are things going?

KM

A number of things have happened since I last posted on this thread, but we had a detailed conversation late last night that I don't have time to relate just yet. However, just prior to that conversation, I updated my "Affair is over for OP but not for WW" thread. I discovered that after 2-1/2 weeks, WW called OM again and left another message for him. So nothing has changed for WW and now the recovery clock is set back to zero, I guess.