I'm not sure what happened to me. Or my life as I knew it. My H had an EA (maybe PA? He says no, I'm not sure I believe him) for about 2 months. That I know and have proof of. Maybe more. Again I don't know. We've been in varying degrees of recovery since 3/07, but he still hasn't disclosed much to me. Most of what I know I found out on my own. I discovered the A through phone records and confronted him. I asked who the number belonged to & got the response "a friend". That email is burned in my brain. How long did I sit at the computer and just stare at that? I called the number. The voicemail was a woman's name. But it was a company he worked with, so maybe he's just pushing my buttons because we had been fighting recently. There could be a legitimate reason he had placed so many calls to that number. I looked at the phone bill again. There were even more calls to another number I didn't know. I called that one. Same name. But this was a cell phone. Harder to explain to myself, but it could be that she works from home just as he does sometimes. We set that up when we were expecting baby 3, so he could be with us more. 3 was just over a year old. I called him at work. Not knowing MB or how this worked other than on TV, I expected that he was either going to give me a simple, logical explanation or he was going to rush home and beg my forgiveness. Even though I thought all I'd be asked to forgive would be too many friendly conversations. Didn't happen. He started what I now know to be typical WS fogbabble, but had never heard of or imagined would ever be spoken to me by this person who was my love and my life. She was just a friend. He could be friends with whomever he decided and I had no say. Our marriage was over. He'd already decided It had nothing to do with her. She was a good person. She listened and understood him like I never had. She cared. That was the beginning of my train wreck. The start of the crazy talk in my head. I hung up the phone and just sat. What the H just happened? Not even 3 hours earlier, he kissed me good bye and said he loved me. I changed the baby, loaded the dishwasher, gave the kids breakfast and sat down to pay the bills. Why did I ask him about that bill? I just wanted to know if it was a work related expense. That's why I asked. That's all I wanted to know. I'm home alone with 3 young children and my H, who I thought still loved me as much as always. Whom I still loved even more deeply than at the start of our marriage informed me by phone that he was just simply "done with me and our marriage". Where did that speeding train come from? I didn't see it. I didn't hear it. I didn't feel the rumble. We ate dinner the night before, put the kids to bed together, he loved me 3 hours ago. I went through the motions of the morning, I'm not sure how many hours, waiting for him still to walk through the door. Waiting for him to say he's sorry. He lost it. Didn't mean any of it. She really is just a business assoc. and he was trying to get a rise out of me. The door didn't open. After lunch I called him again. Maybe he cooled off. Maybe he can explain. Maybe I can find out how my life as I knew it ceased to exist in 3 words. "Just a friend". He wouldn't talk to me. Said I was being irrational. He'd be working late. Huh? This can't be real. My world just got blown apart. He did it. And he won't tell me why. What happened? What next?
I started calling family members. His, not mine. I can't hold it together in front of my kids. The man I knew that morning was gone and in his place a stranger who was he!!bent on destroying everything I knew and loved. I called his because my step father was in the end stages of cancer. End stage like maybe not even still living by the time I called. I couldn't ask my mom for help. I couldn't burden them with my problem. My dad and I aren't close. He would still be there if I asked, but he was recovering from heart surgery, so it probably wasn't a good idea to call him. Hmm H never asked how the surgery went. Should I have read something into that? My husband doesn't love me. How could I miss this. There had to be signs. Think. No. One big fight, less than 2 weeks earlier. That was after the phone calls started.Think. What did I miss? No. Valentine's day was before that fight. It was nice. He had to miss work because of the snow. I made one of his favorite dinners. Had a birthday party for our daughter's stuffed lion. Rubbed his shoulders when he came in from shoveling snow. I know now. It meant nothing. While I was so appreciative of him for doing that, watching from the window because I was worried he'd overdo it. He was doing it so he didn't have to be near me. Ouch. Even the fight. I called a friend from church during that. I could not understand why he was reacting so strongly. She asked, "Could there be someone else?" "No, my H would never do that!"
H's relatives didn't return calls. I didn't want them to take sides. I just wanted them to take the kids, so I could crumple on the outside, just like I was crushed inside. I can't face him. Not in this state. Not with the kids here. I just can't hold it together if I have to see him. I called H again. "Please don't come home. I'll drop clothes off for you. I'll leave them in the driveway. Go buy new, but don't come home. I can't see you" Of course as the entitled WS, it's his house and I can't keep him out. I called everyone I thought may be able to get through to him to ask him to give me this one night to process what just happened. He wouldn't talk to them and it probably wouldn't have done any good.
Then the even crazier talk. Who is the OW? What does she know? Does she know he's married with 3 kids? Maybe not. Maybe if I call. If I tell her I love my husband. My kids love their father. We have a history. We're married. She knew. I heard from her that H didn't love me. Never had. Only stayed as long as he had for the kids. he didn't want to be with me. She loved him and wasn't backing off. I called H's cell phone. He'd be on his way home. I really can not deal with him. "DO NOT COME HOME" I called my sister. I cried. i think I scared her almost to death. I just sobbed. And I don't cry. "Please help. Just come over for 10 minutes so I can self destruct."
But H got there first. With a police escort. I didn't see H's car. Oh My G! Has he been in an accident? He was so upset. Why did I call his cell while he was driving? And here I didn't think I could feel more out of control. No, he's ok. He's afraid of me. As dark as that moment was, now I laugh. My H is 6'8" and well over 200 lbs. I'm 5' and less than 100 lbs soaking wet. The police escort was probably only 5'5" and maybe 150 lbs. Besides, what was I going to do? I told the officer he could let H in, but I didn't want to be around him. I went to the baby's bedroom with him while the 2 older visited the policeman. They're young enough to just think it's cool. Before he left H came in to kiss the baby good bye. Then he walked out. How could he see me like that and turn his back? How could he hold our baby and be so cold to me? The baby climbed on my lap and hugged me. My sister and her afmily came. My brother in law offered to hunt H down, smack some sense into him and drag him back to his wife and kids where H belonged. I declined. BIL went out to shovel my walk. Why do men shovel to avoid?
Bed time. "Daddy's having a sleepover at Grandma's. I'm sort of mad because I don't like one of his friends and we don't want to talk about it until we calm down. You can call him at work in the morning" What isn't said- Your father is a lying, cheating piece of dirt who doesn't care what happens to us. I really don't know where he's sleeping or with whom. I don't know if he'll be at work or if he'll take our calls.
My bed time. More sobbing. Tossing and turning. I'm exhausted. I've felt like I was going to just drop all day and now I can't turn off. Maybe if I sleep, it will go away. It's a bad dream. I stretched my hand across the bed just like every night. There's no one there. He was there last night. Less than 24 hours. I was a wife and mother. Who am I now? Where is he? Why doesn't he love me? Why won't he fix this? Why isn't that door opening? All he has to do is tell me it's ok. It was a mistake.
I get up and wander the house. Will this be my house much longer? Will my H ever share this house with me again? How do I keep things normal for the kids? What will happen to all of us? Will another woman be putting her hand across the bed to touch H? Will she hold my babies? I want the life I had yesterday.

It's a year later. There's been a lot more on the rollercoaster. I've got posts all over MB, trying to find the right fit. All the stories are so similar, but we're all different too. H & I are mostly good on the day to day, but the A still holds way too much power. We have to put time and work into this and sometimes it's just too hard, but we're trying. Thanks for listening.

Powerful writing. Brings me back to my own pre d-day pain and confusion. The things WSs say are very hard to get over, aren't they? Many of the things my WW did then are seared into my brain, and I don't think those scars will ever completely heal.

Its something I've always wondered about. I can understand an A. I don't agree with it, but I can get my head around it. What I struggle with is the wayward behavior that comes with it, the emotional abuse inflicted upon the BS.

I mean, ok, so you want to be with someone else? What does that have to do with ME? Why does that translate into the WS having to seemingly go out of thier way to inflict damage on the BS? I mean, I get it, the whole self justification thing, the history rewrite, all that.

But the things WSs do, they're above and beyond what would be necessary to conduct an A. They treat BS worse than I have ever treated anyone. I mean, where does that even come from? To know that they are even capable of treating someone with such utter disrespect, for whatever reason.

And now here she is, WW becomes FWW, and she loves me (again? . . . still?). We're trying to make it better, probably is better in many ways, but its also worse, for me anyhow, and there's really only 2 options, keep trying, or quit. Quitting is always tempting, but it isn't REALLY an option, at least not for me.

Anyhow, I hear you loud and clear Turksmom, I bet many others do as well.

Yeah, I can certainly identify with you, Turksmom.

I was completely blindsided. As it says in my signature, I walked in and caught them in the act. Due to the nature of their "relationship", or lack thereof, I had absolutely no evidence prior to opening that front door.

I'm not the same person anymore. I look about the same, and I sound the same. I can fake it well enough to fool my own family, including my FWW.

Only I know that I'm a completely different person now. The person I used to be was instantly destroyed on d-day, which was nearly 2 years ago.

I feel like I've put on an act every day since then. Like someone else is occupying my body, and I'm little more than a spectator to what's going on around me.

Turk,
I cried for you when I read your story. Actually, I might have cried for me too....it's eerily similar. But, mine never left. He was about to until I laid a few things on the line for him. I told him "just remember when you crawl into bed at night with OW, I'll be alone...when you go to the mall and hold her hand I'll be holding the hand of one of your children...when you sit back refreshed after a nice afternoon of God knows what, I'll be cutting the lawn, cleaning the house, driving the kids to activities and doing laundry. Just remember what you leave behind when you walk out that door." This brought him to his knees in fits of tears. He says that was his moment of clarity when he realized how MUCH I meant to him. While he was totally enthralled with OW I represented what he referred to as 'Big Love'. I was 'it' for him and he now realized the error of his ways blah, blah, blah...It would be four months from that fateful date until true NC occurred -- to my knowledge. My heart aches every day to this very day when I replay those horrible words he said to me...'I think I'm supposed to be with her". I, too, was blindsided except that I met OW and saw it coming from her side. I just did not believe my H was dumb enought to squander 17 years of marriage for that dumpy little gross human. Sorry...that always feels better. You know, it sounds odd, but I'm a much nicer person than she is so I just don't always get it. This was a big pill for me to swallow...always a great wife & mother...where did I go wrong?
Anyway, you are in the right spot. There are many who have suffered the betrayal of a PA, and I am glad to not know that pain. However, the more I read the more I realize how similar they are. We will all be here for you and will be the folks who pull you up when you don't feel able to do so. I really have no one I can talk to in person as I hate to burdon people with my own troubles. My own family rarely asks how I'm doing as their problems seem to make mine seem small. I fear that my OW lurks and reads every thing I say but then I wonder how she'd know. It's a feeling I think I'll live with forever. I have a file on her that is hidden..my H says I know more about her than he does. This seems to be true. I run checks, I've done research. The only think I have not done is drive by her home. I'm always afraid he'll be there, even if I physically see him at our home. Your irrational thoughts will very often cloud what should be your reality. Be careful with this, as the slippery slope is very hard to recover from. I'll pray extra hard for you today. Thanks for sharing your story. You'll find that no matter how bad it seems, someone is here to help.

Turksmom,

This is a lonely journey. But putting the bulk of your attention on your kids will help you rise above the pain and keep you going for them.

Your H will crash someday and see the big mistake he made over this insanity. Kids are not ok with divorce and waywards convince themselves that they will be. They are too short sighted and selfish to see any different.

Don't punish yourself at all or blame yourself. Real life is tough. Real life can be tedious. Real life is what makes marriage wonderful to those who truly value it.

Keep your chin up and focus on you in your recovery. Improving yourself means improving things for your kids.

Take care and keep coming back for more help and support.

I think maybe there should be a warning on this thread. I seem to be throwing people back to some really dark days. I still feel the need to revisit. Like an accident scene. I need to process it and grieve for what I lost.
Believe me, confusion is still very high on my list of daily emotions. I'm going to try to share a little bit that I've figured out from these posts, SAA and my own situation that may help you understand the WS's cruelty. Understanding alone won't make you feel better. It still happened. It's part of your memory. Knowing more of why WS would and could do this and WS being fully aware of and remorseful for those things has helped me.
First know those awful things that were said about you weren't true. Even if it started with a tiny morsel of truth by the time WS was at the point of justifying an A to her/himself, you made Satan look like a better mate. All in WS's head.
WS does this for some of the following reasons. They were wronged. Real or imagined, that you did this is in their head. Somehow my H got from me complaining about him not taking out the garbage to me being a horrible, cruel, demanding, controlling shrew of a wife who never loved him. If he couldn't make me worse in his mind, he couldn't be blameless for the A or problems in the M
To alleviate WS's guilt. The worse we are, the more they deserve to look elsewhere for their happiness. They are behaving like monsters. It's easier for them if we created the monster and then deserve to have our creation unleashed on us, than if they "just aren't happy" We did this to them.Our problem is somewhere in that monster we see the person we love. We haven't devoted the time to rewriting our image of WS completely
They are presenting their perfect image to OP. OP does not see the bad. WS begins to think of themselves only as they let OP see them. We see all and love them anyway, but may try to hold them accountable for less than perfect behavior. OP sees no fault and they would rather believe that assessment. Therefore we're "never happy, overly critical".
We don't love them. If we did, we wouldn't wrong them in all the ways they perceive. If we don't love them, we can't be hurt by the A. If we throw a wrench in the plans and still do love them, they say these awful things so we'll stop. Then they can say they were right all along and they don't have to feel bad about their behavior.

When my H finally confessed his A to his BF, his BF said he thought I was a "nutjob" because H was presenting me from his fogged perspective. Now that he's heard the unfogged version, it seems I'm just a typical, sometimes mad wife. The WS spends so many hours nurturing this image that it becomes reality. Then you have OP who never has anything positive to say about the BS and the clouded opinions of friends who only know half the story all supporting this warped version of you. We can't imagine how they could do this because even though we fall into the "crazies" sometimes, we don't take up residence as they did.
My biggest question of how doesn't come from those cruel babblings. My how is the opposite. How could H behave lovingly toward me? Especially the above and beyond? I can understand peacekeeping efforts like taking out the garbage, but why spend extra time with me? Why hold my hand? Bring me coffee? Things that weren't typical, that I wouldn't have missed if he hadn't done them. That seems more cruel, that he loved someone else and made me believe he still loved me. Then yanked it away without warning.
Keep hanging in. There are so many good people on this site who will offer support, it really helps with the bad days

Thanks so much for your support. I'm afraid I only had time to post the beginning of my story in detail. I'll add more as I can. H reluctantly agreed to see MC and end A about a week after dday. It was several more weeks before the fog lifted. We're about a year past that now. When I have dark days, when I have doubts about whether H and I can get through this, I look at my kids and know that I can't walk away unless I have tried everything first. Good things aren't always painless.

He needs to understand how important it is for you to know everything in order to truly heal. Do a search for "Trueheart's Letter" (I believe that's the spelling) which does a wonderful job of explaining the need to know to a WS.

That's a hole in your heart which won't heal until you have full disclosure.

Keeping things hidden only prolongs the pain.

Fiori,
Thanks for visiting and your continued encouragement. Talk with H last night didn't reveal as much info as I hoped, but I feel like for the first time he "gets it". The advice from BF was basically that it's time for H to "man up", get over his issues with this and do whatever I need because what I need is what we need to stay in this M. H talked without excusing.
Very amused by your OW comment. Don't think I can post the names I use. H is feeling guilt over similar issue. He can't believe he was ready to throw away "REAL" for something with no substance. I could totally identify with what you told your H as well. At one point before he decided her or me I considered mailing his dirty laundry to her. (I also did background checks to get as much info as I could. Gave my sister the file to hold for me)Let's see how badly she wants him when she knows how his socks really smell! Also would have loved to see her explain that package to her H.
As far as irrational, I've wondered if OW knows about this site as well. It isn't you, is it? (LOL) Sometimes the crazies do creep up, but I try not to slide.
Let me know how you are doing. Do you have your own thread?

Turk,
I used to have a thread entitled "Can I survive HIS emotional affiar" but it no longer exists. I think there's a statute of limitations on things that no longer get posts on them. I believe most people who've been here know my story but let me know if you think I should post it again. I always feel like I'm 'bothering' people if I start something new.

How are you today? How are the kids? I'll think of you today.

Thanks, Fiori,
Today's a good day. Sad, but full of promise. I know the sad will fade. H is finally talking and understanding what I need from that and even a bit of how I feel and why when I hear these things. It seems like it's the silly stuff that bothers me most. He finally admitted to calling her because he loved hearing how right he was and that it just made him feel good instead of the previous, "Well, I called her because you upset me" He understands now that choosing to call her as opposed to any other action he could have taken was based on his own selfish desires. But that part didn't bother me. I figured that long before he did. He told her about a fight he and I had before we M. Talk about holding on to things! It was a stupid fight even then. Not overly personal, but we were the only two people in the world who knew about it. It was our history. Now she's part of it. I feel like the seagulls in "Finding Nemo". I just want to yell, " Mine, mine, mine". There were also things he talked about with her that he never told me. He said it was because I was there, so he didn't have to tell me about it and also he was using it to impress her. On the plus side, he knew I wouldn't be impressed because I'm not that shallow and he sees me as strong and accomplished( I'll believe that again someday. Right now I see myself more as Jell-o), I don't need to hang on his experiences. She shouldn't know any more about him than I do. No matter how insignificant. So, I'll be mad, I'll be sad, I'll be over it and ready for the next.
We did have nice couple and family time also. Walked to our polling place with the kids. Can you guess my state? (ha,ha) I know there has to be fun too for this to work.
I understand how you feel about not starting new posts. That's one of the reasons it took me a year. I think everyone's stories are helpful, both in feeling we aren't alone and identifying places for hope and potential pit falls, so I don't know that anyone is bothered by it. Maybe just that reluctance to burden. Besides, they don't have to read them. If you decide you want to, let me know where to find you. You're welcome to piggyback here. Thank you for the kind words and thoughts.

So, can you sum up where things have been in recovery?

What H and you have done so far..... Counseling, books, MB reading, etc.

Wow, it was hard to get through that. Triggers abound. (((Turksmom)))

Is your H willing to post or read here? I think my FWH and other FWS here would be willing to post to him about the importance of being radically honest if he would be open to that...

This was something my FWH didn't want to do for a while. I told him I wanted to move forward...no more setbacks with additional d-days...and in order to do that I needed to know the truth about everything. Our MC basically told him we really wouldn't be able to rebuild our M if he didn't come clean. Once he finally did, he said it was a huge relief.

Also wanted to mention to you that it was recommended to me here to get "His Needs Her Needs." (We got the audio book...H listened to it on his commute to work). I can't recommend this book enough. IMHO probably the next best thing to counseling with the Harleys directly...

Hope this helps!

Turk,
Jello?? That's a good thing to be! You can throw it and it keeps it's shape...you can sink fruit in it and it still stays together...you can put a fork in it and the fork stands upright. Ok, sure, it's pliable...but jello does NOT deconstruct..no matter what!

You can be lime..a little tart but with a sweet aftertaste.

By the way...
HTM is in distress and needs reinforcements.

Yes, tell your H you MUST have all the answers to everything you need to know.... Radical Honesty!





HIS pace will get you nowhere. It is time to tell him what your needs are. Don't make him guess.

I understand his guilt, However (BIG HOWEVER), it doesn't remove his responsibility to give you honest answers to ALL of your questions.

You will re-live mini D-Day's over and over until you have all the questions answered. Why are you waiting??

You know, I had to go to the polls yesterday too...I did not realize I had another east coaster here.

Read this again


Radical Honesty Link

Thanks for the notice about HTM! She's definitely hug-worthy!

TST,
To answer your earlier post as well. We do have MC and he has IC. Lots of his stuff is from long before me and he does realize that has to be worked out to prevent him from sliding back. We have HNHN for parents-that's how I discovered MB. Not until about 3 mos. post Dday, but better late than never. We have SAA, a book/video series by Charles Swindoll, some great marriage mentors, accountability people, he reads MB and has promised his own login by week's end. We've done all of the worksheets that go with the MB principles, although we should reevaluate, so I'm glad you reminded me.Also the posts I printed went to work with him to read on his break.Since he used to call OW then, I'm very pleased that he now devotes that time to us.
Daily we've been doing really well. He practices enthusiastic agreement, lets me know where he is and what he's doing, helps more around the house, more family time and we've really been trying to keep our 15 hours. We had some major crises, not about M or the A, but they would have been difficult for a couple not in recovery and we've stood strong together. There have been some slips on both sides, but nothing earth shattering.
The only thing is he won't talk!!! I'll bet SMB gave you a whole list of reasons why she had to know and I'm sure I've repeated the same to H over and over and over. We have talked the last 2 nights. His talk with his BF was a real turning point. It's still going a little slow for me, but when he does it, he's getting it right. I'm no longer getting the summary of the general misdeed followed by, but..., so I am hopeful this time. But also a little afraid to be hopeful.
I'm so grateful for the support and advice I find here. I'm sure I'll need it as things finally come to light.
Blessings to you and your beloved.

Hey Turk,
Are you anywhere near Rocky? The statue...

She had a minimum requirements list...If I can find it I will post it for you.






This does sound hopeful.... I would stress how important it is for you to get closure to all your questions. NO secrets, No half truths! Then once you have all the answers it's time to focus forward and build your marriage anew.

This was most of my wifes list of requirements prior to me coming home. This was her rough draft.....final looked pretty much the same;



REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME

Humility

Remorse

Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God

Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow)

Authentic repentance


Apology for the A and his hurtful actions before and after

Confession & apology to children

Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted

IC, MC, & Family C

Accountability forever to 3 men that I choose

Attend church again

NC Letter

Provide all cell phone & credit card records from this past year

Complete radical honesty about our entire history together

15+ hours together weekly

Pray with me daily

Polygraph

Post Nup agreement that provides for me very well if we ever divorce

agree to sigh aver business value and home in Post Nup

and anything else I may ask
----------------------------------------------------------------


I agreed to everything!

I am forever thankful she said yes.

I'm closer to TMI. Feel free to send a PM if you're able. BTW, You've spent a lot of time thinking about Jell-o! I love it. Thanks for the pick me up!

As in Three Mile Island?

I will try to send a private messege, although I'm not quite sure how to do it on this messege board.

I'm wondering how HTM did yesterday with her long trip. She's three hours behind so I'm sure she's still sleeping, as it's 7am here. I'll check back in later after the kiddies are off and I'm back from Church.

TST,
Thank you for that list. I remember reading it on SMB's thread, but didn't think to show H. He asked for it when I mentioned it to him. More reason for hope?
I have a really big one this morning. He finally had that breakdown/crash that everyone who's been there mentions. I didn't realize he hadn't before because he has been sincerely apologetic since the fog cleared and he has cried before and been visibly upset. Today I gave him cold cereal and it sent him over the edge. I'm a chef, so it's not like this was a culinary achievement.This time he wasn't sorry like the little kid who gets sent to time out. He was remorseful. I hate to sound happy about it because it was very paiful to see him like that, but I know he isn't just going through the motions now.
He's also realizing what he's done to OWH. I don't know why that's such a big deal to me, but I've pushed him to think of that. Maybe I feel he can identify more with that point? I should mention that was before he saw SMB's list. Not that he could have faked that raw emotion.
Our toddler is recovering from a little stomach bug, so I don't know if I'll get time for any more updates. Once again, I appreciate the time you take to help and support

That's the TMI. Guess I could have said "ED & Marj's other home" Haven't seen any news from HTM yet, but I'm hopeful that they enjoyed their family time.
How are things on your end? You haven't said much about that lately. Also hoping that means you're doing well going forward.

Thanks for asking...
You know, right now things seem good. I get nervous about that because I'm not sure I can trust my instincts right now. This morning I started a new thread in GQ11 called "Can I trust my instincts NOW? I need a little help from some of the others who have come out of the dark to see if these uplifting feelings I have are real or too early.

We had a great night last night. As a family we participated in the United Cerebal Palsy 5K. It was a humbling experience to be in the presence of children who are so happy yet have so many struggles. I am so impressed with the families and how they rally behind their kids and show such great respect for each other. I am raising two boys who need to grow into men and I think it's so important for them to realize how good they have it and how absolutely imperative it is for them to find ways to give back. We, as a family, totally loved the event. I can't wait til next year so we can do it again. But, wearing new sneaks was not kind to my little toes...oooohhh the blister!

I waiting a bit and then I think I will cally HTM. She and I exchanged phone numbers prior to her knowing she would go along on the trip. I'm so proud of her for choosing to go and finding good in an otherwise scary scenario. I suppose that's really what it all becomes about. You need to see what is right in front of you in order to see what lies ahead.

Are you well today? I realize it's still early and with the little one's it can turn on a dime, but generally, do you feel good? I'm so glad someone spoke with your H and seems to have broken through. I suppose they need to hear it from someone else, as we may be too close to the situation for them to listen. I'll keep you in my thoughts. I'll check in later today. I think I may need to go outside and take in this awesome weather day before it gets chilly again.

Fiori,
I haven't had a chance to pop over to your other thread yet. It's a question that I revisist often, so I'd really like to see how others respond.
I'm happy that you've been able to find good couple and family time lately. I hope you've had good "me" time too. I'm not contradicting the MB principle of avoiding independent behavior or taking away from couple time with that comment. I think sometimes we just need that quiet place to process everything and (I'm hoping)feel good about the positive without overanalyzing. I know I'm guilty of that one. More of that crazy talk in my head. "We had such a nice day. I feel so close to H. He's really working to meet my needs. OMG! What if he's really working because he's forcing himself? What if he's only doing it to alleviate his guilt? What if he doesn't have guilt? What if he's doing it so I don't see what he's really doing? He's just waiting until OW leaves OWH. He's just tolerating me until he can be with her! OK, calm down, I'm nuts. It is what it is. We had a good day because he loves me and wants this to work. Because we are and always have been compatible. We've worked out all of the problems in the M. And we're getting through the aftermath of the A. Take it for what it is..." You get the idea. Anyway, it plays out much better in my head than if I try to talk through it with H. That's a sure way to put him in a defensive position.
Yesterday started out realy well. Stressful, but extremely positive as a sign that real recovery is now underway(read my earlier post to TST). Things at H's work are really coming to a head and it's very stressful, but we're doing well at standing together on that one and recognizing that work is the problem and we can't let it carry over to the M. There was a little spillover yesterday because he hadn't told me what was happening there. We usually exchange morning emails and I let him know I was feeling kind of "funny", but not sure why and asked if he'd call or email a couple times later in the day just to check in and he responded that he'd try, but he was really busy. Major trigger! During the A he wouldn't take my calls or would hurry off the phone because he was "too busy". Yet he spent hours talking to her while he was working and on his breaks. During A he told me he was too busy even on breaks and he was working through them. Yeah talking to that (I'll borrow your description because it is fitting)gross little human. Still watching the news and so far no reports of OWs just falling off the Earth. At least I recognized it as a trigger and tried to talk myself down. Then H called at lunch to tell me what was going on and did manage later emails too. Afraid he may be unemployed come Monday. Yeah, we need that right now! Have figured out that unemployment will still cover all of our necessities, so thank God we aren't in the position of some families. My grandfather always said " If you have all of what you need, you're ok. If you have all of what you need and some of what you want, you're doing well. If there's not a thing in the world you want or need, life is excellent" Hmmm...Guess that could apply to marriage as well as finance. Never thought of that before.
One caution... H and I were in our current rough spot because we were so happy with the day by day that I didn't want to bring up the A and ruin it. You're different since you've already had disclosure, but if there is something bothering you, DON"T Keep it bottled!!! It doesn't just go away. Also, if we hadn't let it build and cloud the good part, we probably would have a much easier time talking about difficult issues. We're getting back to the good now, but it's easier to stay there than to start over.
Enjoy your family this weekend. I'm going to find a nice stress free activity for us. Can't control what happens with his job, so thinking about it is only making it worse. Maybe the zoo. It's really hard to be stressed when you see the excitement of the kids as they watch the different animals. I always find the otters and prarie dogs uplifting. They exemplify No Worries!

turk,
check your private messeges.

I haven't been here for a while. Don't know if anyone reads this anymore, but I could use an opinion or two. Things seemed to be progressing with FWH and I. He's finally talking. Unfortunately, that means new info. Apparently the"I love yous" were exchanged in his office. I had already requested a job change when I found out their relationship went way beyond talking on the phone too much , but of course "these things take time". Changes at work have taken away his ability to work from home and made him more difficult to reach while he's there. Now I can't stand the thought of him being there. I also found out that when it ended he told her it was because I wouldn't talk to him as long as he talked to her. She suggested that they could remain "friends" and I wouldn't know. At that point he told her if I found out she contacted him again, I'd tell her husband everything.
I asked my H if there were other conversations with her between when I found out and he ended it. He doesn't remember. I talked to her. She told me he didn't love me, they were together now and my H didn't want to have anything to do with me. Yet she was ok with it ending as long as I didn't tell OWH when he talked to her? Even though he told her he wasn't wearing his ring, was leaving me (which she had been asking about) and they were exchanging their ILY's for close to 2 weeks (affair was 2 months) I'm to believe her response was just "okey-dokey, as long as H doesn't find out"? Something seems off.
Now I asked H to write a NC letter for my peace of mind, just so I know what his feelings about ending it now would be. He wrote a really good one that did help me feel better. So, what's the problem/
Well, he's in that office and I'm not getting responses. He can't just walk out and be unemployed, but I'm tired of waiting for the next train wreck every time he goes to work. So my position is if he has to be there I want a better guarantee than his word that he doesn't still have contact with her. Whether it's mailing that letter or sending an email to her making it clear that he's decided he wants to be married to me(that wasn't made clear when he ended the affair. That he might possibly love his wife and want to save the marriage weren't given as reasons)
He doesn't want to "stir up trouble" this long after the fact 3/3/07(NC?), so he doesn't want either of us to contact her. He says there's been no contact, but I'm really not sure that's true. I only found out he told her he loved her at the end of May. Even though I asked the when, where, why, how, etc. then, he didn't answer until less than 2 weeks ago. Unless he changes fields along with jobs there is always potential contact. I want it made clear to her that he wants to be here, wouldn't be with her no matter what. He refuses. Then he tries to pull POJA! He doesn't agree that a firmer NC is in order. He's spent the last 18 months still lying and influencing my decisions by lying and withholding info and then I'm the one creating problems by insisting on something he doesn't agree with? My position at this point is enough of this s***. He makes the committment here 100% by burning those bridges or I'm done.

Turksmom,

Talking about NC? re a WS who is still working with their OP seems to get very heated around here. While you read this post, please keep in mind I respect your decision to wait for your H to establish NC, but I just want to make sure you have your eyes wide open.

1)How do you know for certain the A hasn't just gone further underground? Have you been able to verify NC? other than your H's word?

2)Is your H actively pursuing a different job so that NC can be established? What is the plan if he can't find another job w/n a set amount of time?

You know that as long as your H works with OW, despite his promises of NC?, that he is likely to remain foggy, right? and that that includes all of the above, withdrawn, omitting information...


Again, I don't mean to spell it out but you are well aware that each time he goes into work with her that it is endangering the marriage, right? If not for the A being reignited...then b/c you are likely to LB regularly which will further deteriotate the M...

I think if you have decided to allow your H wiggle room to establish NC, then you should be in Plan A which means meeting his ENs and NO LBers w/o much expectation of progress in your Recovery.

ps Not telling OWH about the A is a very bad idea. He has a right to know and it would help protect the A from reigniting if he is watching from his side as well.

Good luck.

Turksmom, NO, you dont POJA adultery related matters. He doesn't have to enthusiastically agree in order to do what needs to be done for recovery. IF he is serious about saving your marriage, NC should NOT be a problem for him.

Personally, I think her H should know what has happened, regardless if the A is over or not.

EXPOSE TO HER HUSBAND......NOW.....He has a right to know and you are abading and aiding in their adultery and lies as long as you do not tell him....plain and simple.

Yes, your WS will be furious and angry, but its not your problem You remain calm, cool and collected while he throws his temper tantrum (and he will, make no mistake about it...). He will spew lines such as

"I was going to work on this but now you ruined it"
"It wasn't your place to get involved in their Marriage"
"You are a conniving _________. YOu said you wouldn't do this, but you did it anyway"
"wah wah wah wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

You can weather the storm. But this needs to be done.

Of course he told you she was ok with it. THey don't want him to find out. Did you honestly think he was going to say that they actually wanted to keep the A going?? Or ask your permission for it??

And him getting his transfer, all it looks like he has been doing is gaslighting you. PERIOD.

They took this A further underground, I would bet the farm on it....

I think you need to investigate further and get to the bottom of this or you are going to feel this way forever, or until you end up in the hospital.....I know its hard, I didn't want to face facts either, but once I did and I knew what the heck was going on, things turned around for the better....

not2fun

I re-read your post.


I would go as far as to say it would be impossible to believe they exchanged ILYs during their A and it ended with NO exposure to OWH and continued contact at work.

Like Not, I would be willing to bet money on it.


There is any easy way to find out. Ask him to submit to a polygraph test.

Thanks for the replies. You're right I am going to end up in the hospital if something doesn't change. Hopefully this morning will bring that about. I should say here that H does not work in the same building as OW. He insists all of their contact was long distance and he refused to meet her until we were "officially separated" which we never were. Again, only his word, so...?
H wrote a NC letter and I emailed it to her company email this morning.Now, if they're still in contact, I'm sure he told her it was coming and to just ignore it. If they aren't hopefully that will help protect against reignition. He does have to leave his job ASAP. He's apologized for putting it off and has promised to pursue new employment more actively. We'll see. I'm hopeful, but not stupid.
As far as OWH is concerned, I agree 100% that he should be told All of the decisions I made or went along with based on my H's lies during and after the affair really kill me. I think I often resent that part of the affair more than his interactions with her.My H thinks there's the potential for OWH to react violently, not just toward him or OW, but possibly our family(4 kids-10, 8, 2 and 8 months{hopeful stage of recovery, before more lies, but wouldn't trade her for the world}). Nice that he was concerned for us when he got involved with someone that low on the evolutionary scale, but I am concerned about the risk.
Now I'm going to sit here biting my nails all day wondering if that email will prompt a call from OW

Turk,
We need to talk.
Email and I'll call you if you want.

Turk,

Well, it is nice to see you waking up, but you are not quite there yet. I know how bad this all sucks. I spent most of this year so far exactly where you are. It is not fun.....now let me comments on the points above.....

1. He is LYING....point blank. To your face. He is telling you what he THINKS you want to hear. To protect himself, his affair, and his OW. He is not thinking of you, the kids, or the family unit. You must realize this.

When I finally had Cday, my WS came over to tell me "truth" (we were seperated...). The "truth" he told was that he didn't sleep with her until AFTER he moved out and at that time as far as he was concerned our M was over. He was moving on. Lots of people date others and have sex before their D are final.

The real truth (which I found out ON MY OWN 2 days later after finally getting his password to his email account using a keylogger).....He slept with her the FIRST time 6 weeks prior to him moving out, prior to Dday, and 3 other time BEFORE he moved out......

Do not depend on your WS to tell you the truth.....it won't happen....


2. I do not trust this either. So far it seems that he is just doing enough to appease you while he can carry on his affair.

In my sitch, after Cday, she sent him 3 (yes count em' 3) NC letters. What do I find out later???....They were bogus. They were still in contact.....and they where in contact MINUTES after NC letters were sent....


3. Another lie to keep you from exposing. It is a fear tactic he is placing on YOU to make you feel responsible. They all say this. Heck, even my WS said this.

Now, I will admit that COW's H did threaten my WS after I finally exposed and had said he wanted to kill him and that if he ever came to FL. he should watch his back, but what do you expect??? YOur WS is boinking his wife. I don't know of ANY H that is going to react kindly to that. And to be honest, if he did, well I do believe that WS deserves it.

But I also believe that is said in the heat of the moment. After finding out the most painful and crushing thing a spouse could ever find out.....


Now, honestly, you just need to expose. Plain and simple. I didn't have a problem exposing, but I did with the snooping. It took me many many months to do it right. My WS put the fear of God in me over it. But once I did, I was ok.....

Think about it, what is the worst thing that can happen if you expose??? YOur WS leaves you??? Well, good riddence, you don't want that whacked out,alien addict anyway. And besides, let him leave. Let him find out the grass ain't so dang green over on the other side. Let him find out what having the kids only every other weekend feels like. And let him find out what it feels like when he has them without YOU there to help him.

YOu deserve WAY better than this WS is giving you. Same as I deserved better than what my WS was giving me......which I am NOW getting from my H (the FWS....)

not2fun

I'm confused as to why you would think sending a NC letter/email to OW would change anything if they are still involved in the A?


I've seen this excuse here before. Don't tell your H you are going to expose. He will clearly try to talk you out of it. You need to contact OWH TODAY. Don't put it off. He has a right to know just like you had the right to know, right?

Have you considered that telling OWH may result in her leaving the workplace? When you talk to him, you should send him here so he can fight the A a la MB from his end as well.

Fiori, if you are going to give advice in contradiction to what is being posted here, IMO, it would be most beneficial to Turksmom if you posted it here so that other posters had the opportunity to respond.

if it has nothing to do with the posts, then my apologies...

I just seriously doubt that the OWH would attack you or your small children to retaliate for his W's adultery. I guess conceivably, it could happen; a falling comet could strike your house tonight, but odds are probably about 1 in 100 million.

Your H is being a coward by playing on your worst fears to keep you quiet. This is the reason a wayward should never be warned before exposure hits.

Actually, we are friends outside of here. We bonded due to the similarities in our situations and have chosen to speak directly as 'friendly acquaintances' by circumstance. I have nothing to hide except that I'm embarrassed that our situations are so similar. I feel sadness for Turk, as I do some days for myself. Our hubbies and their situations are eerily similar so we are able to lend support. Sorry if I offended.

Thanks to all for the insight and advice. I am still considering the subject of exposure to OWH. I really don't know enough about him to decide if there is s real threat. Hopefully not. Probably not. There are times in dealing with the A that I have felt absolutely murderous rage. And while I'll admit to being irritated, angry and downright mad as H in the past. This is the only subject that brings about that intense emotional reaction. When H asked what would help the other day, I believe my response was if I "could wipe that stupid b**** right off the face of the earth". I wouldn't actually do it. I'm a better person and I'd think of the effect it would have on my family and even hers. If that is the response from a usually non violent person, I'm not sure I want to see the response of someone who is. Now if I would find out the A has reignited or she contacted H, I have my letter ready to go to OWH, his parents, her boss, her coworkers and everyone in my H's contact list. And my H knows I'd do it in a second and told her as much when I discovered the A. I can assume that if she would contact him again, there is no real risk of violence.
I'm saying it that way because I also choose to believe the NC letter I emailed is for real. I am aware that I could be wrong and they could have faked it. However he put in some very unflatterring remarks that I don't think he could explain away by saying his wife made him.
Also choosing to believe (still not entirely convinced myself, but choosing to believe unless I'm presented with contrary evidence) that it did not progress to a PA. Only because in the very slowly extracted info from H, we did go through the "nothing like that; I would never; well, we talked about sex, but only generally; Ok, we did have more detailed conversations; she suggested and I said I wanted to"... all the way up to the final version that included making plans and when they were going to and his final admission that it would have been physical if I hadn't discovered it when I did. I believe that that is most likely true because she would have had to make an 8 hour drive here overnight or very early in the AM, find child care for her son(he normally stayed with her in-laws), and explain the absence to her H. My H had enough unaccounted for time that he could have met her where we live, but not that he could have travelled.So it isn't an impossibility, but it's unlikely. The other side of that is that I assumed it was physical when I discovered the A and that was part of what I was willing to forgive and work through. I have said the whole time that I personally would have handled the PA better than an EA, yet he has admitted to the things I never expected about the EA and (not very well a lot of the time) has been willing to try to work through it, so why continue to lie about what I considered less offensive (not trying to minimize a PA. That is absolutely horrible and I didn't say it wouldn't be very hard to deal with, I'm just saying which was worse for me)
I still needed that NC for my peace of mind until he leaves his current job.I still don't understand his objection. He says he was afraid it would prompt her to contact him or me and he didn't want to deal with it. Since his avoidance of conflict is a big part of the reason we got here, it isn't unbelieveable. He has found two good job possibilities already that would not deal with her company at all. So I'm remaining vigilant, but I'm not ready to go worst case scenario yet. As was said, "what's the worst that could happen? I'll be ok whether it's because the marriage recovers or because I learn an unpleasant truth and go on.

Turk,

I am saying this as respectfully as I can.

You are CHOOSING to stick your head in the sand and PRETEND....

I know all of this because I did it......you have a OW that works with your H, lives close by, and you honestly believe all his BS (and I don't mean betrayed spouse...).

Honey, I had all the same crap go on with the COW in our sitch living 1000's of miles away. So what if what he wrote was harsh. The second NC letter she wrote was filled with harsh stuff. I had him wait for us to read it together. He cried at it....YET found out LATER that they had talked just minutes after it went out. He knew it was coming, he knew the reason why (the other couples counselor had her do this...), yet it still hurt him, CRUSHED him, yet they still talked......

I hope I am wrong on this, but I am willing to bet the farm I am not......

To me I see your WS spewing nothing but fog-speak and grasping at all straws to keep this going.....anything to CONFUSE you....

not2fun


PS....and by not telling her H, you are becoming their ACCOMPLACE (SP).....does it sit well with your inner self and morals to keep this VITAL information from someone who deserves to know what is going on in his life??? Would you want him to tell you if roles were reversed????

I know I am being harsh, but honey, do not bring yourself down to their level....I IMPLORE you

Not2,
I do appreciate and consider your points. I realize you are speaking from your experience as I am speaking from mine. We all gain by sharing whether it is through advice, insight or support.While I appreciate the first two and believe they let me look at my own situation more clearly and objectively, right now I could use the third(support). My goal is to rebuild my marriage. While I fully intend to question, check and recheck anything that makes me the least bit suspicious,I don't intend to attack my H at every turn. Especially when he does make the effort to do what I've asked of him. Granted, had he done it on his own or more willingly, I'd feel better about it. Am I over my suspicions entirely? No. But I think much of that is what has happened, not what is happenning and I'm more interested in going forward than punishing past mistakes.It is very hard to convey all of the nuances of relationships through these forums.
As for OWH, I am still considering that. I will always have the option to expose. While sooner may have been better it is important to me to evaluate the effect it could have on both of our families before I take any action. I will continue to think about what you've said.
How are things with your H now? I'm hoping you're both well.

I am just curious. Is the reason you haven't exposed to OWH b/c you are using that as leverage to keep OW away from H?

What did your NC letter say?

There are multiple reasons for not exposing immediately. Of course I knew nothing of MB on D-day. I also did not know the extent of their betrayal. Talking too much to a work contact, while still over the line, was not necessarily adultery. What they did was (even if there wasn't a PA), but I didn't know then. What I knew was that there was another woman I didn't know existed spending hours talking with my H and that he preferred her company to mine. My immediate concern wasn't her H. My H used exposing the A to OWH as a threat at that time to stop her from contacting him because she objected when he told her he couldn't speak with her anymore. My H still believes that it's leverage against her to threaten exposure. I'm not withholding the info from OWH for that reason, but I'm not above using that threat on her if it works. They have a young child also and I don't want to expose this much later if there's a chance she's been "scared straight" I realize probably not, but getting caught does occasionally have that effect. If the A is over and their marriage and family are still intact, I'm not sure what is to be gained. I would feel wonderful for a little while about putting her through some of the he** I go through, but not so great about putting OWH through it. Would I want to know? During - yes. If there was still contact- absolutely. A year and a half later? Maybe not. Again something to consider. There is also a strong possibility my H and OW would lose their jobs. In both cases, they are necessary to support the families. My H was willing to expose to both employers immediately after and I was the one who stopped him as long as there were conditions put in place that he would never be exposed to her in any way. I'm still undecided.
as for the NC letter I'll copy it to this page.I only removed names. Everything was written by H and approved by me.

OW,

I’m sending this letter so you know how important it is that you never contact me again. I love my wife very much and will do anything to save my marriage. I was wrong about everything I ever said about her and I only want to be with her. I need to make sure that you know I would never want to be with you under any circumstance.
I have terribly hurt and disrespected my wife. I only hope she will give me the chance to show her that I love her and want to spend the rest of my life with her. I should have never accepted or used your cell phone number. We should have never spent as much time talking or talked about our spouses to each other the way we did. We were horribly disrespectful to them both. I was wrong to think you are a good person. Good people do not have affairs or pursue another person’s spouse. I was wrong about you and how I said I felt about you. I want someone who is smart that can have an intelligent conversation. I want someone with similar interests, views and opinions. I want someone my age that is mature that has had some real life experience. I want someone that is a good parent and not a spoiled brat themselves. I want someone that their priority in life is their spouse and family, not getting everything they want and doing whatever makes them feel good no matter who gets hurt. You are none of these things and I want nothing to do with you. My wife is all of these things and much more and I hope she will forgive me.
I will not be contacting you again. If you attempt to contact me or even reply to this my wife will contact your husband.

H

I really do value the input I recieve here and appreciate the concern and support. Thanks to all

Turksmom, I think you need to be honest with yourself. I think this is the main reason that you haven't exposed to OWH...that you are using exposure as leverage or as a way to "blackmail" your OW.

I think that you will eventually feel guilty for using this approach, for keeping this information from OWH to your own advantage... Not to mention exposure to OWH is one of the BEST way to keep the A from continuing.

I hope others will chime in here.

Definitely consider calling the Harleys. Good luck.

Done with thread and MB. Since joining this site it has gone from helpful and supportive to judgemental and antagonistic.(not specifically targeting BP here, so please don't read that way) Probably not Harley's intent.
I know my reasons and intentions. I am a smart, capable woman who is able to make decisions and judgements on her own. I am being honest with myself. H is the one who considers it leverage not to tell OWH. I asked him to send the NC letter this much later because if the threat of discovery didn't prevent her from doing it the first time, I don't think it would prevent her from contacting again. I told him when he wrote the letter that I am still undecided about exposing.
Sharing similar stories, knowing you're not alone, having others to use as a sounding board are all very positive aspects of MB. While situations may be similar and characteristics and patterns of affairs are predictible, no two situations or individuals are the same.I'm interested in defending my marriage. I'm not interested in defending my decisions, my H, or myself on this website.

I am a little surprised that you expected posters to be ONLY supportive when...
a) there is contact between your H and OW.
(I think the view being that MB principles tend not to do much good when there is still contact going on between the affair partners no matter how minimal.)
b) not telling OP's spouse about the affair and using that as a threat in your NC letter.

My comments and questions were not designed to upset you but to see if you can't be persuaded that this is a very bad idea...not only as a moral issue but b/c exposure is probably the best MB advice you can be given right now...IMO...

I don't think the other posters were being judgemental or antaganostic. I think Not in particular has been in your situation and is trying to prevent you from going through the pain of false recovery as she did.

Sorry that you haven't received the support that you were looking for here. I sure hope that the red flags posters pointed out to you turn out to be false and that you are a good path to recovery. Good luck.

One last post. I thought this might help you:

This is from Mimi. She is not judgemental or antagnostic in my opinion. Look at the length of time she has been here and how she has recovered her M... Good luck.

No advise or judgments, here just a few (ok several)comments :

1) There is no reason to throw out MB along with this therad. You can be done with this thread but still go on with MB

2) The INTENT of the posters here is to help you with the RECOVERY of your marriage. They each have their own communication style and way of trying to get thru the BS or WS fog to get the messages of Marriage Building accross.

3) If you do not like the advise of a particular poster you can always put them on ignore.


Then dont attempt to defend your self , Just take the input you get and allow it to process in your system. No one is happy when the incoming message is not what we want or expect. Dont feel like you have to defend your actions or positions . You have a right to do what you want and how to fight for your marriage. If you are here then I am assuming you are looking for some sort of guidance from those who have BTDT and that is what you are getting.

I am sorry you feel like you are getting more advise (espically messages you dont want to hear thru your pain) than support.

I for one feel sad and sorry that you (and me for that matter) are BS's at all and have to put up with this crappy and difficult recovery process. But if we make the choice to save our marriage now that we are BS's I am discovering that there is no Easy Happy Quick way to do it.
So I wish you success and hope you find happiness and healing for yourself and your marriage which ever way you choose to find it.

[quote=Turksmom] Since joining this site it has gone from helpful and supportive to judgemental and antagonistic[quote]


Turk,

I see that you are angry. That in itself is a good thing. Now, if you just re-direct that anger to where it needs to be, it would do a lot of good for you and your Marriage.

Judgemental and antagonistic???

I can see where you think that, but I and other do that so that you can see what we see. There was a poster who was very judgemental and antagonistic in my thread. She would push and prod, scream and holler, and do everything in her power to raise my ir. I cannot tell you how many times she made me angry. Don't believe me?? My sis who lurked on here felt the same way towards her. She thought "How dare she come down so hard on my sister??"

BUT, I will tell you this, she was the poster who got me into ACTION. She didn't pat me on the head and tell "me everything will be okay", she didn't hug me when WS was being a butthole (and there were times he was HORRIBLE...), no, she wanted me to find out the TRUTH....because that is what we BS NEED.

And you know what??? She was RIGHT.....and it was because of her, that she helped ME find my courage and inner strength to face WS and his A and stand up for MYSELF......

And to this day she is my GREATEST supporter and ally. And you know what??? She STILL kicks my butt when it is needed.....(and I often do...)

So, when I see what you tell us, and I see where your road is leading you, then YES, I will tell you what is going to happen. Honestly, I hope to he77 I am wrong, but unfortunately, these situations are all too much the same around here......and if my being antagonistic keeps you from suffering as I did, then I will have done my job......

Hopefully, you change your mind and stick around. I know for me that if I had up and left each time someone made me mad, my WS would STILL be in his affair and WE would NOT be in Recovery........

not2fun

ps...BP, thanks for the support there. I do feel for Turk, but her WS is making me mad...

EDITED....

pss..The poster who I referring to is MIMI....she doesn't play around. With affairs, you just can't do that.....

EXACTLY!!! Great post, Not!

To give you an idea of why I so adamantly agree with the Harleys that there must be NC at all costs: I have two family members whose WSs have been embroiled in LTAs. Despite the fact that other family members have tried to tell the BSs what is going on, they are in deep denial and have allowed minimal contact with their OPs to continue. I also have a friend who is getting divorced now b/c she allowed contact to continue. There is such as a thing as BS fog... Good luck.