Hey Turk,
Are you anywhere near Rocky? The statue...

She had a minimum requirements list...If I can find it I will post it for you.






This does sound hopeful.... I would stress how important it is for you to get closure to all your questions. NO secrets, No half truths! Then once you have all the answers it's time to focus forward and build your marriage anew.

This was most of my wifes list of requirements prior to me coming home. This was her rough draft.....final looked pretty much the same;



REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME

Humility

Remorse

Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God

Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow)

Authentic repentance


Apology for the A and his hurtful actions before and after

Confession & apology to children

Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted

IC, MC, & Family C

Accountability forever to 3 men that I choose

Attend church again

NC Letter

Provide all cell phone & credit card records from this past year

Complete radical honesty about our entire history together

15+ hours together weekly

Pray with me daily

Polygraph

Post Nup agreement that provides for me very well if we ever divorce

agree to sigh aver business value and home in Post Nup

and anything else I may ask
----------------------------------------------------------------


I agreed to everything!

I am forever thankful she said yes.

I'm closer to TMI. Feel free to send a PM if you're able. BTW, You've spent a lot of time thinking about Jell-o! I love it. Thanks for the pick me up!

As in Three Mile Island?

I will try to send a private messege, although I'm not quite sure how to do it on this messege board.

I'm wondering how HTM did yesterday with her long trip. She's three hours behind so I'm sure she's still sleeping, as it's 7am here. I'll check back in later after the kiddies are off and I'm back from Church.

TST,
Thank you for that list. I remember reading it on SMB's thread, but didn't think to show H. He asked for it when I mentioned it to him. More reason for hope?
I have a really big one this morning. He finally had that breakdown/crash that everyone who's been there mentions. I didn't realize he hadn't before because he has been sincerely apologetic since the fog cleared and he has cried before and been visibly upset. Today I gave him cold cereal and it sent him over the edge. I'm a chef, so it's not like this was a culinary achievement.This time he wasn't sorry like the little kid who gets sent to time out. He was remorseful. I hate to sound happy about it because it was very paiful to see him like that, but I know he isn't just going through the motions now.
He's also realizing what he's done to OWH. I don't know why that's such a big deal to me, but I've pushed him to think of that. Maybe I feel he can identify more with that point? I should mention that was before he saw SMB's list. Not that he could have faked that raw emotion.
Our toddler is recovering from a little stomach bug, so I don't know if I'll get time for any more updates. Once again, I appreciate the time you take to help and support

That's the TMI. Guess I could have said "ED & Marj's other home" Haven't seen any news from HTM yet, but I'm hopeful that they enjoyed their family time.
How are things on your end? You haven't said much about that lately. Also hoping that means you're doing well going forward.

Thanks for asking...
You know, right now things seem good. I get nervous about that because I'm not sure I can trust my instincts right now. This morning I started a new thread in GQ11 called "Can I trust my instincts NOW? I need a little help from some of the others who have come out of the dark to see if these uplifting feelings I have are real or too early.

We had a great night last night. As a family we participated in the United Cerebal Palsy 5K. It was a humbling experience to be in the presence of children who are so happy yet have so many struggles. I am so impressed with the families and how they rally behind their kids and show such great respect for each other. I am raising two boys who need to grow into men and I think it's so important for them to realize how good they have it and how absolutely imperative it is for them to find ways to give back. We, as a family, totally loved the event. I can't wait til next year so we can do it again. But, wearing new sneaks was not kind to my little toes...oooohhh the blister!

I waiting a bit and then I think I will cally HTM. She and I exchanged phone numbers prior to her knowing she would go along on the trip. I'm so proud of her for choosing to go and finding good in an otherwise scary scenario. I suppose that's really what it all becomes about. You need to see what is right in front of you in order to see what lies ahead.

Are you well today? I realize it's still early and with the little one's it can turn on a dime, but generally, do you feel good? I'm so glad someone spoke with your H and seems to have broken through. I suppose they need to hear it from someone else, as we may be too close to the situation for them to listen. I'll keep you in my thoughts. I'll check in later today. I think I may need to go outside and take in this awesome weather day before it gets chilly again.

Fiori,
I haven't had a chance to pop over to your other thread yet. It's a question that I revisist often, so I'd really like to see how others respond.
I'm happy that you've been able to find good couple and family time lately. I hope you've had good "me" time too. I'm not contradicting the MB principle of avoiding independent behavior or taking away from couple time with that comment. I think sometimes we just need that quiet place to process everything and (I'm hoping)feel good about the positive without overanalyzing. I know I'm guilty of that one. More of that crazy talk in my head. "We had such a nice day. I feel so close to H. He's really working to meet my needs. OMG! What if he's really working because he's forcing himself? What if he's only doing it to alleviate his guilt? What if he doesn't have guilt? What if he's doing it so I don't see what he's really doing? He's just waiting until OW leaves OWH. He's just tolerating me until he can be with her! OK, calm down, I'm nuts. It is what it is. We had a good day because he loves me and wants this to work. Because we are and always have been compatible. We've worked out all of the problems in the M. And we're getting through the aftermath of the A. Take it for what it is..." You get the idea. Anyway, it plays out much better in my head than if I try to talk through it with H. That's a sure way to put him in a defensive position.
Yesterday started out realy well. Stressful, but extremely positive as a sign that real recovery is now underway(read my earlier post to TST). Things at H's work are really coming to a head and it's very stressful, but we're doing well at standing together on that one and recognizing that work is the problem and we can't let it carry over to the M. There was a little spillover yesterday because he hadn't told me what was happening there. We usually exchange morning emails and I let him know I was feeling kind of "funny", but not sure why and asked if he'd call or email a couple times later in the day just to check in and he responded that he'd try, but he was really busy. Major trigger! During the A he wouldn't take my calls or would hurry off the phone because he was "too busy". Yet he spent hours talking to her while he was working and on his breaks. During A he told me he was too busy even on breaks and he was working through them. Yeah talking to that (I'll borrow your description because it is fitting)gross little human. Still watching the news and so far no reports of OWs just falling off the Earth. At least I recognized it as a trigger and tried to talk myself down. Then H called at lunch to tell me what was going on and did manage later emails too. Afraid he may be unemployed come Monday. Yeah, we need that right now! Have figured out that unemployment will still cover all of our necessities, so thank God we aren't in the position of some families. My grandfather always said " If you have all of what you need, you're ok. If you have all of what you need and some of what you want, you're doing well. If there's not a thing in the world you want or need, life is excellent" Hmmm...Guess that could apply to marriage as well as finance. Never thought of that before.
One caution... H and I were in our current rough spot because we were so happy with the day by day that I didn't want to bring up the A and ruin it. You're different since you've already had disclosure, but if there is something bothering you, DON"T Keep it bottled!!! It doesn't just go away. Also, if we hadn't let it build and cloud the good part, we probably would have a much easier time talking about difficult issues. We're getting back to the good now, but it's easier to stay there than to start over.
Enjoy your family this weekend. I'm going to find a nice stress free activity for us. Can't control what happens with his job, so thinking about it is only making it worse. Maybe the zoo. It's really hard to be stressed when you see the excitement of the kids as they watch the different animals. I always find the otters and prarie dogs uplifting. They exemplify No Worries!

turk,
check your private messeges.

I haven't been here for a while. Don't know if anyone reads this anymore, but I could use an opinion or two. Things seemed to be progressing with FWH and I. He's finally talking. Unfortunately, that means new info. Apparently the"I love yous" were exchanged in his office. I had already requested a job change when I found out their relationship went way beyond talking on the phone too much , but of course "these things take time". Changes at work have taken away his ability to work from home and made him more difficult to reach while he's there. Now I can't stand the thought of him being there. I also found out that when it ended he told her it was because I wouldn't talk to him as long as he talked to her. She suggested that they could remain "friends" and I wouldn't know. At that point he told her if I found out she contacted him again, I'd tell her husband everything.
I asked my H if there were other conversations with her between when I found out and he ended it. He doesn't remember. I talked to her. She told me he didn't love me, they were together now and my H didn't want to have anything to do with me. Yet she was ok with it ending as long as I didn't tell OWH when he talked to her? Even though he told her he wasn't wearing his ring, was leaving me (which she had been asking about) and they were exchanging their ILY's for close to 2 weeks (affair was 2 months) I'm to believe her response was just "okey-dokey, as long as H doesn't find out"? Something seems off.
Now I asked H to write a NC letter for my peace of mind, just so I know what his feelings about ending it now would be. He wrote a really good one that did help me feel better. So, what's the problem/
Well, he's in that office and I'm not getting responses. He can't just walk out and be unemployed, but I'm tired of waiting for the next train wreck every time he goes to work. So my position is if he has to be there I want a better guarantee than his word that he doesn't still have contact with her. Whether it's mailing that letter or sending an email to her making it clear that he's decided he wants to be married to me(that wasn't made clear when he ended the affair. That he might possibly love his wife and want to save the marriage weren't given as reasons)
He doesn't want to "stir up trouble" this long after the fact 3/3/07(NC?), so he doesn't want either of us to contact her. He says there's been no contact, but I'm really not sure that's true. I only found out he told her he loved her at the end of May. Even though I asked the when, where, why, how, etc. then, he didn't answer until less than 2 weeks ago. Unless he changes fields along with jobs there is always potential contact. I want it made clear to her that he wants to be here, wouldn't be with her no matter what. He refuses. Then he tries to pull POJA! He doesn't agree that a firmer NC is in order. He's spent the last 18 months still lying and influencing my decisions by lying and withholding info and then I'm the one creating problems by insisting on something he doesn't agree with? My position at this point is enough of this s***. He makes the committment here 100% by burning those bridges or I'm done.

Turksmom,

Talking about NC? re a WS who is still working with their OP seems to get very heated around here. While you read this post, please keep in mind I respect your decision to wait for your H to establish NC, but I just want to make sure you have your eyes wide open.

1)How do you know for certain the A hasn't just gone further underground? Have you been able to verify NC? other than your H's word?

2)Is your H actively pursuing a different job so that NC can be established? What is the plan if he can't find another job w/n a set amount of time?

You know that as long as your H works with OW, despite his promises of NC?, that he is likely to remain foggy, right? and that that includes all of the above, withdrawn, omitting information...


Again, I don't mean to spell it out but you are well aware that each time he goes into work with her that it is endangering the marriage, right? If not for the A being reignited...then b/c you are likely to LB regularly which will further deteriotate the M...

I think if you have decided to allow your H wiggle room to establish NC, then you should be in Plan A which means meeting his ENs and NO LBers w/o much expectation of progress in your Recovery.

ps Not telling OWH about the A is a very bad idea. He has a right to know and it would help protect the A from reigniting if he is watching from his side as well.

Good luck.

Turksmom, NO, you dont POJA adultery related matters. He doesn't have to enthusiastically agree in order to do what needs to be done for recovery. IF he is serious about saving your marriage, NC should NOT be a problem for him.

Personally, I think her H should know what has happened, regardless if the A is over or not.

EXPOSE TO HER HUSBAND......NOW.....He has a right to know and you are abading and aiding in their adultery and lies as long as you do not tell him....plain and simple.

Yes, your WS will be furious and angry, but its not your problem You remain calm, cool and collected while he throws his temper tantrum (and he will, make no mistake about it...). He will spew lines such as

"I was going to work on this but now you ruined it"
"It wasn't your place to get involved in their Marriage"
"You are a conniving _________. YOu said you wouldn't do this, but you did it anyway"
"wah wah wah wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

You can weather the storm. But this needs to be done.

Of course he told you she was ok with it. THey don't want him to find out. Did you honestly think he was going to say that they actually wanted to keep the A going?? Or ask your permission for it??

And him getting his transfer, all it looks like he has been doing is gaslighting you. PERIOD.

They took this A further underground, I would bet the farm on it....

I think you need to investigate further and get to the bottom of this or you are going to feel this way forever, or until you end up in the hospital.....I know its hard, I didn't want to face facts either, but once I did and I knew what the heck was going on, things turned around for the better....

not2fun

I re-read your post.


I would go as far as to say it would be impossible to believe they exchanged ILYs during their A and it ended with NO exposure to OWH and continued contact at work.

Like Not, I would be willing to bet money on it.


There is any easy way to find out. Ask him to submit to a polygraph test.

Thanks for the replies. You're right I am going to end up in the hospital if something doesn't change. Hopefully this morning will bring that about. I should say here that H does not work in the same building as OW. He insists all of their contact was long distance and he refused to meet her until we were "officially separated" which we never were. Again, only his word, so...?
H wrote a NC letter and I emailed it to her company email this morning.Now, if they're still in contact, I'm sure he told her it was coming and to just ignore it. If they aren't hopefully that will help protect against reignition. He does have to leave his job ASAP. He's apologized for putting it off and has promised to pursue new employment more actively. We'll see. I'm hopeful, but not stupid.
As far as OWH is concerned, I agree 100% that he should be told All of the decisions I made or went along with based on my H's lies during and after the affair really kill me. I think I often resent that part of the affair more than his interactions with her.My H thinks there's the potential for OWH to react violently, not just toward him or OW, but possibly our family(4 kids-10, 8, 2 and 8 months{hopeful stage of recovery, before more lies, but wouldn't trade her for the world}). Nice that he was concerned for us when he got involved with someone that low on the evolutionary scale, but I am concerned about the risk.
Now I'm going to sit here biting my nails all day wondering if that email will prompt a call from OW

Turk,
We need to talk.
Email and I'll call you if you want.

Turk,

Well, it is nice to see you waking up, but you are not quite there yet. I know how bad this all sucks. I spent most of this year so far exactly where you are. It is not fun.....now let me comments on the points above.....

1. He is LYING....point blank. To your face. He is telling you what he THINKS you want to hear. To protect himself, his affair, and his OW. He is not thinking of you, the kids, or the family unit. You must realize this.

When I finally had Cday, my WS came over to tell me "truth" (we were seperated...). The "truth" he told was that he didn't sleep with her until AFTER he moved out and at that time as far as he was concerned our M was over. He was moving on. Lots of people date others and have sex before their D are final.

The real truth (which I found out ON MY OWN 2 days later after finally getting his password to his email account using a keylogger).....He slept with her the FIRST time 6 weeks prior to him moving out, prior to Dday, and 3 other time BEFORE he moved out......

Do not depend on your WS to tell you the truth.....it won't happen....


2. I do not trust this either. So far it seems that he is just doing enough to appease you while he can carry on his affair.

In my sitch, after Cday, she sent him 3 (yes count em' 3) NC letters. What do I find out later???....They were bogus. They were still in contact.....and they where in contact MINUTES after NC letters were sent....


3. Another lie to keep you from exposing. It is a fear tactic he is placing on YOU to make you feel responsible. They all say this. Heck, even my WS said this.

Now, I will admit that COW's H did threaten my WS after I finally exposed and had said he wanted to kill him and that if he ever came to FL. he should watch his back, but what do you expect??? YOur WS is boinking his wife. I don't know of ANY H that is going to react kindly to that. And to be honest, if he did, well I do believe that WS deserves it.

But I also believe that is said in the heat of the moment. After finding out the most painful and crushing thing a spouse could ever find out.....


Now, honestly, you just need to expose. Plain and simple. I didn't have a problem exposing, but I did with the snooping. It took me many many months to do it right. My WS put the fear of God in me over it. But once I did, I was ok.....

Think about it, what is the worst thing that can happen if you expose??? YOur WS leaves you??? Well, good riddence, you don't want that whacked out,alien addict anyway. And besides, let him leave. Let him find out the grass ain't so dang green over on the other side. Let him find out what having the kids only every other weekend feels like. And let him find out what it feels like when he has them without YOU there to help him.

YOu deserve WAY better than this WS is giving you. Same as I deserved better than what my WS was giving me......which I am NOW getting from my H (the FWS....)

not2fun

I'm confused as to why you would think sending a NC letter/email to OW would change anything if they are still involved in the A?


I've seen this excuse here before. Don't tell your H you are going to expose. He will clearly try to talk you out of it. You need to contact OWH TODAY. Don't put it off. He has a right to know just like you had the right to know, right?

Have you considered that telling OWH may result in her leaving the workplace? When you talk to him, you should send him here so he can fight the A a la MB from his end as well.

Fiori, if you are going to give advice in contradiction to what is being posted here, IMO, it would be most beneficial to Turksmom if you posted it here so that other posters had the opportunity to respond.

if it has nothing to do with the posts, then my apologies...