This is my own thread concerning an incident that MrsZonie
posted here . Mrs Z lied to me about several things after the A was revealed. I almost left her over that one. Afterwards I asked if there was anything else I should know. She told me a few details that I dealt with and filed away. After a good weekend together, I had a trigger and for some reason asked if he had taken any pictures of her. Her answer was Yes, that they had taken some very, very explicit sexual photos together in his office AND at his house(Your imagination is most likely correct). Apparently she felt that she didn’t have to volunteer that little tidbit unless I asked.

I called her careless and stupid for doing that and even called her a slut. I realized that I had nothing but LoveBusters in me and she should go eat the dinner I made and leave me in peace at that point. OM had just been sent a NC letter. What’s his state of mind? Was I going to see these pics posted to my company email directory, on Myspace, or mailed to me?! Did she let him take these pics thinking they would share a walk down sexual memory lane later on? When do I get to decide what I need to know? I asked her to tell me these things already and to this day she lets them dribble out slowly, torturing me all the while. I just don’t know how to get her to tell me what I need to know. Even when I ask, I don’t get these details.

Apparently she feels that my reaction was abusive and now I’m suffering that as well. My friend thinks I’m a better man than him for trying to make this work, but at times like this I just want to give up. How did all you BS deal with the slow trickle of details that apparently won’t be shared voluntarily until asked? I know there are more things I want to know, but don’t know to ask them…yet. I’ll just go through all of this again when I realize a question a month from now and get the answer.

Well, Zonie, I never got any details at all from my husband, and now I'm divorced. He refused to give me any information or answer any quesitons. In fact, the one digusting thing I DID find out was from the OW's husband - that the infidels never used any protection. My ex swore to me that they DID.

So at least she is telling you the truth. But I'm with YOU, what a stupid thing to do. Now the photos live on and on, could show up anywhere, can be savored by the OM or shared with who knows whom. It turns my stomach.

But I think you know that you shouldn't call her names, even though I know how it felt, and I called my ex a few choice ones, and the OW too.

You might take some time and write down everything you can think of to ask - that is if you REALLY think you want to know. Then give her the list and have her answer. But you STILL may think of things later, and that is your perogative.

Zone, what you are experiencing is the backlash of withholding, an extreme form of mental torture. When a WS withholds information and admits only direct questions, it puts you in a perpetual D-day when the wound is ripped open over and over again. This little game is usually practiced by a WS who tries to save herself by glossing over or leaving out huge pieces of the puzzle. Unfortunately, that behavior makes it virtually impossible for you to recover because you can NEVER get the CONTEXT, the full picture. And you need to full picture to move forward.

It is like dying a death of a thousand cuts and prolongs recovery.

I am trying to find Joseph's Letter for your W in the hope that it will knock some sense into her.

brb

In the meantime, please read this newsletter from Dr Harley:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

entire article

I just posted to your wife. I advised her to write the whole thing down and give it to you. She has no right to keep even a single detail from you at this point. It is not for her to decide what you "need" to know or what you can "handle." She has abused you in one of the worst ways possible and it is my hope for you that you can find the support and encouragement you need here from people who have walked a mile (or 10) in your shoes.

Why don't you tell us a little more about you and what has happened over the past couple of months...when did you suspect, when did you know for sure, do you have any children, etc. She is sugar-coating everything at this point, so your "side" of the story would be appreciated, if you can bear to talk about it. I understand if you cannot.

Meantime...just a little piece of advice I was given when my husband (Want2Stay) and I came here a few months ago- try to stay off of each other's threads. This is a safe place for each of you to get help and to vent and to heal. Stepping all over each other's threads will only hinder your recovery.

Please read this site and the articles Dr. Harley has written on infidelity. There is so much info here and it is all extremely helpful. If you come to the site, at the top of any page, you will see "Basic Concepts." Read these...then down the RIGHT hand side of any page, you will see a box with "Most Popular Links" and a link called "How to Survive Infidelity." Read all of that, too.

I wish you all the best. Please have patience with yourself...you will need a lot of time to heal...

Here is some more great reading for ya from posters on this site!
Pep's Notable Posts

Some want ALL the details, some don't. You do, so you are entitled to 100%, just be prepared for the shocks. It is that waywards are crazy, loonie toons, bonkers, out of their cotton picking minds and that means stupid as well. There are chemical reasons for this and I'll explain if you wanna know more. And since most of us haven't been that out of our tree since we were teenagers, some (most)don't handle it well when they start to wake up and deal with their actions.

It takes most a while to wake up and face themselves in the mirror, resolved to do whatever it takes, and I mean WHATEVER it takes to mitigate the brown stain they have covered themselves with along with everyone else. When the blame shifting stops completely, you know that the two of you are on the right road.

Some of the legal minds on here might want to address the issue of getting the pics. No, don't you EVER look at them. I just wonder if a Lawyer might be able to get them and burn them or something. Just a thought. . .

This is a place where you are safe. So is your wife. Don't expect anything but the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, as rendered by the collective wisdom of those here. Some are more helpful than others and that varies a bit depending on what issue is raised.

But the bottom line is that the people here CARE. All the best.

Larry

Thanks for the posts all,

My contribution to the A was my complete and total disregard for her EN of conversation. It is not one of my top 5, but it is her #1 so I work on meeting it. He succeeded where I failed. But I don't understand where the perpetual documentation of their tryst via photos fill that void?

Tonight I got down to the emotional hell that is my life. I didn't leave a gory thought out that we other BS haven't already imagined. I saw her cringe as I described each of my my mental movies. I live this reality every waking hour of every waking day. Why should she be given the right to be offended when I recant a single hour of my hell that she chose to give me?

This really isn't a he said/she said argument. She has completely valid points. I was on my knees tonight (only because it was comfortable) but I thought it apropos to say that I need her to get past herself and to know that I wanted to make it work. Halfway through my words, she interrupted and pointed out that I was berating her. What an awkward position for a BS to be in! I was on a bent knee apologizing for actions that led another man to make love to my wife!!! I don't know the right answers to my questions, but it's 3:00 am and I'm going to sleep alone. That should be some indication of what's right and wrong I guess.

I don't think that you abused her at all(although your words are not helpful with recovery). In fact, given what she did..she was all of the things that you said.
For me...this would be a deal breaker....I would walk away from her. Imagine what other things she would be hiding if she didn't feel this was important enough to share.

Clearly a woman that would allow pictures of herself to be taken while she performed for her affair partner shows a complete and utter lack of respect for you.

In my book....she should be gone before you get the embarrassment of hearing from a friend about some pictures that he saw.

if they were taken with her consent, there is no reason he needs to turn them over.

She should still request that they be turned over. Thankfully my FWW wasn't foggy enough to actually take pictures (well, at least I hope not!), but she did share some stuff with the OM. I urged her to ask for everything back, and everything was returned and we destroyed all of it shortly afterwards.

I would say though that I'm with you on this one, MEDC. I think I would find recovery almost impossible over those circumstances.

Brother,

I'm a fellow BH. I understand how you feel and how learning a new detail after you thought you knew what happened can set you back.

I learned something like you in my situation and it re-opened wounds that had barely started scabbing over.

It gets better. No matter what happens between you and your W, it gets better. The incessant thoughts taper down and eventually disappear.

You have kids?

I feel your pain. My FWH wouldn't talk. He's started now and he's doing much better, but still leaving out too many details. Not sure the pix your FWW left out would be a detail to me, that seems like a big one. We're more than one year out from Dday and it's only been a week that H is talking without justifying. It did take an argument where he actually told me that I didn't understand how hard it was for him . His BF is the one who finally got through to him and made him understand how essential it is for H to talk to me the way I need. If the search feature is working again, look up my posts, I got some excellent advice and insight about this subject.
WS's also don't seem to get that we need to determine what info is important to us. FWH thought once the big stuff was out he was done. It's the little details that are worse for me in many cases. One slipped out this morning. OW went to FWH in tears(oddly, over a different married OM she had an A with who was going to tell her H)and he comforted her. This is the same man who laid next to me in our bed as I sobbed for hours after finding out about the A and couldn't so much as reach out a hand to comfort me. His wife, the mother of his children. Instead his response was that he never loved me and didn't want to encourage me in thinking that the M could be saved (bad fogbabble). And he made her tears go away. She knows about my kids. Innocent conversation with someone else, but that she knows makes my skin crawl. This is what I think the WS misses sometimes. It isn't a certain action or statement (although again, the pictures seem like an obvious transgression to me)It's how the action or statement relates to everything else in the M & A.

Look for TST and SexyMamaBear's posts. They have some helpful advice. Best of luck

I am NOT going to be one to recommend that you bail. Instead, give her more time to pull her head out of her, er, fog. Clearly she is looking out for her own emotions by being defensive when the reality is that if she wants a sensible recovery, she should be looking out for your's.

Enough of the veterans on here have told her she is full of it to the point where if she doesn't get it now, she might down the road.

And if she is reading this, I will say the same thing. Lady, quit thinking about your own injuries, they are self inflicted. Those on here who are after you do so because in their clear minds, you are still living in a fog or your own making. If you really want a marriage with your husband (or future mate), then you need to learn what a relationship is all about, something that is self focused at this time instead of a way more adult type thinking.

In other words, you did it, now own it and make amends. Be a grownup.

Larry

People:


With all due respect, you're mistaking s2pidity for malice.

-ol' 2long

2long, with all due respect, labeling adultery as mere "stupidity" is the understatement of the decade. That does not change the fact that an affair is an extreme form of abuse. She was not ignorant of the damage her affair would cause.

Adultery is abuse, but since it's most often carried out thoughtlessly it's not malicious, merely selfish and s2pid.

-ol' 2long

Okay, so it's EXTREME s2pidity. It's still s2pidity.

I haven't gone back over all that's been said over the past decade, so I can't comment on how understated that was relative 2 other understatements in the past 10 years.

-ol' 2long

Disagree, though it makes no difference how you define it because the result is the same. Adultery is very malicious....and selfish and thoughtless. But none of that changes the fact that there is a bleeding man on the floor because of her actions.

Question is, then, what 2 do? And who's responsible for the doing?

And how do the labels help or hinder progress?

-ol' 2long

What to do about what? Could you be more clear?

Quibbling over labels is a distraction from solving the problem, don't ya think? We can call it a baloney sandwich or whatever we choose, it won't solve the problem.

POM,

I beg to differ;

""The incessant thoughts taper down and eventually disappear.""

In what reality are you living in, oh Brother??

Sorry, but this totally JUMPED out at me and I could not let it fly by on that light airy breeze it was floating on.

IMHO

kirk

This is shockingly ignorant of the facts. Unless the adultery is a drunken one night stand there certainly exists malice of forethought in both the planning and the actions of a wayward spouse. Absent that, a wayward would make no attempt to hide their actions..stupidity would rule. More often than not, they are deceitful, manipulative and cruel....and it isn't by accident.

Liken it to a crime...infidelity would be considered a premeditated act.

I think there are a certain few here that find comfort in the fantasy that their husbands or wives really didn't know what the were doing...that they were somehow less than responsible for their actions.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

My point exactly.

Vilifying Mrs Zonie for allowing the OM 2 take pic2res of them as some sort of act of malice 2ward her H, rather than one of simple s2pidity is NOT going 2 help them recover.

-ol' 2long

But unlike a crime, infidelity isn't punishable by our legal system.


ROTFLMFAO! subtle dig successfully deflected. Plenty could be further from the truth. Much is, in fact. It's called "fog."

-ol' 2long

The adultery is abusive, however its not done with the intent to harm, its more just a disregard of consequences.

I would NOT however categorize her actions as abusive now. She IS trying to fix this. She IS committed to repairing the damage and her marriage. She just doesn't know how to do it. So maybe you can call that stupid.

And she is uncertain of what the right things to do are.
If she tells -- there is explosive anger and name calling.
So in essence, you are training her not to tell.

If she doesn't tell, and it comes out in pieces -- she is destroying your trust and cutting you 1000 times instead of just once.

But MrZone, you need to give her clear direction. What do you really want to know? And can you make it safe for her to tell you?

2 long,

I'm sorry, but you're way off base in trying to rationalize this. Zonie65 is getting good advice, and doesn't need a lesson in "Doormat 101".

Mrs.Z has done plenty to sabotage nearly any remaining chance at a successful R with her continued lies of ommission and justifications. She may still be "foggy" as can be, but none of that absolves her from taking full responsibility for her DAMN poor choices and she's not even close to taking THAT step yet.

At this point, I think I agree with the advice Zonie65 has already received, of protecting himself and his assets, first, and then if Mrs.Z dislodges her head and becomes TRULY remorseful and repentent ... possibly, cautiously, considering R.

exactly!

Ah yes!

Exact nonsense is still nonsense. I'm no advocate of being a doormat, and you're smart enough 2 realize that.

Lexxy's post is right on the mark for this si2ation.

End of discussion.

-ol' 2long

I most heartily disagree. (not with you 2long....)

Nobody is advising him to be a doormat.
But he DOES have a role in recovery.

He doesn't get to just sit back and make her do all the work.
He isn't ENTITLED to anything.
If he wants his marriage to recover, he needs to be an EQUAL partner in making that happen.

We FINALLY have a wayward who is willing to work on the marriage and needs help and guidance. Do you know how RARE those are?

She is not being evil and abusive -- but she is floundering on what the right things to do are.

I don't think we should be feeding MrZone's sense of entitlement.

With all due respect, 2Long, the other posts on this thread are offering solutions while your contribution has been about the appropriate label to apply. Do you have a solution you would like to add?

Yes.

Don't apply labels.

-ol' 2long

p.s. Adultery *IS* an extreme form of abuse and there is no reason to pretend its not. It is a willful act that is more traumatic than the death of a child or a RAPE. Those are not my words, but the words of the good Dr. Harley. We aren't going to get anywhere by pretending it is something other than what it really is.

I see it differently.



If he decides to work on it, that is a GIFT to her. Surely, since she is soley responsible for her actions, he doesn't NEED to do anything. He should and most likely will help...but this is her mess to clean up.


I disagree 100%. He IS entitled to her patience.


again, subjective. I think that not sharing that information earlier is evil and abusive.

Good advice!

You people with cubic metric tons of time on your hands, by all means carry on.

I hope the Zonies survive this.

Bye,
-ol' 2long

Do you have some helpful suggestions for Zonie, 2Long?

Ok, let's keep this on track and try to keep posts helpful and respectful. Instead of criticizing other posters, please offer suggestions to Zonie. We are here to Marriage Build.

Thank you all!

Some of you seem to see a FWW trying to find her way ... I see a still WW, who just realized that she may have made a mistake that can not be overcome and is scrambling.

You see, from a BH's perspective, she has just admitted to doing something for the OM that WILL NOT allow her BH to ever be able to "get over it", because he will NEVER feel safe that he won't be confronted with others who now have access to these photos.

Mrs.Z just took the humiliation of her BH to a whole new level. Now there are not just vague intangible images of "what may have happened", but somewhere someone has hard tangible records of her unfaithfulness and her BH's humiliation, which in an instant can now appear ANYWHERE & EVERYWHERE.

Not me. Choosing to lie by omission to her H in order to protect something that happened between herself and the OM - well, that's straight out of the WS Handbook, isn't it?

I do wish the Z's the best of luck in the recovery of their M, but the process must include the rebuilding of trust, and that's not likely going to happen if the lies (by omission or otherwise) continue.

Maverick:

Thanks for the reminder.

MyRev: Your post deserves comment.


That'd be me, for one.


This makes sense 2 the point about the mistake not being possible 2 overcome. I don't see it that way.


If this is true for Zonie, I find that very sad. I agree that overcoming something like this is HARD (I won't disclose why I know, sorry). If he stays married, obviously he'll have 2 deal with this issue. But if he doesn't stay married, he'll still have 2 deal with this issue. So, things like this are hard 2 overcome, but bypassing them simply isn't an option.


When? When the photos were taken? When she told him about them?


Do you honestly believe they will? Should Zonie live in fear of this happening for the rest of his life?

-ol' 2long

Zonie...

I am a FWW...I was one that told ALL the details right off the bat-I don't say this to make myself look good, because at the time I didn't do it for the right reasons at all...I did it to hurt Mr. W further-I am VERY ashamed of that...I am glad that everything was put on the table though, because there was no opportunity for what is currently happening with you and Mrs. Zonie to occur...I'm certain that is horrible for you...I'm so sorry...It is my sincere hope that she will see this and go to the ends of the earth to fix what she can now.

Even after I spilled my guts to Mr. W I was concerned (later in recovery, when I was fully out of the fog) that maybe there would be something that came to me that I hadn't shared with him. I voiced my concern to him and promised that if anything at all came to mind that I would share it with him...I asked him if he would be okay with that and he said yes...And I did...No matter how trivial it seemed (to me) I told him...It became important to me to do this because by that time I very much wanted him to know EVERYTHING there was to know about me...affair related or not...Intimacy became a very much a team effort for us...And Mr. W had his fair share of secrets from me as well...That became unacceptable to US...I believe that is where we first began to look at the entire marriage/recovery from a team perspective...It has served us well...I hold out hope that you and Mrs. Z will get on that track...It is a fruitful one...

Mrs. W

This isn't something she just did.
It was done months, or weeks ago.

You simply knows about it now.

So, is it better to know? I would think so. So you can be proactive. So you can find a solution (together...)
So it will never come as a suprise to you somewhere in the future.

So -- she told you. That was a gift of her trust. That you are not going to use this information to hurt her. And she is willing to tell you everything. So that it can be you and her against the affair/OM.

We will coach her to tell you what you need to know, and why this is important.

But you need to LET HER. Without causing fear that you will leave her or use this information against her or berate her.

You need to work on receiving the information in a non-threatening way. And to work together with her on what is done about that information.

OK, well, I agree with you MR, MEDC, MEL...but I also see Lexxy's point in regards to Dr. Harley's road to recovery.

The problem here is that they haven't reached a point of even a FINAL D-DAY yet. ALL information must be disclosed to the BS...or at least all that he/she has asked. Once this happens, THEN re-building can begin in earnest, and the AOs and DJs and such must be abandoned in order for that to happen.

Dr. Harley says...


THIS IS WHERE THEY ARE NOW...THEY HAVE NOT MOVED INTO THE NEXT PHASE UNTIL ALL QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED AND TOTAL HONESTY IS ACHIEVED!!!!

At that point, Lexxy's is right, and the doc says...


But, this re-building cannot take place until all the gory details are revealed to the BSs satisfaction...and it may take a while. Writing everything down and getting it all out in one fell swoop would be the quickest way, IMO.

But what I think we were ALL trying to point out, 2Long, is that they must FOLLOW THE PLAN. Noone is trying to label anyone here...we are simply trying to help these people recover in a way that is their BEST CHANCE for TRUE success. Noone should settle for less than a loving, romantic, passionate marriage. It may take a while, but the best hope we ALL have (those of us still in recovery, that is) of getting there, is following the MB path.

STANDING OVATION LaLa! Great Post!

Mrs. W

Agree, Lala, and that is exactly what we have been saying all along. While Zonie should not lash out, it is understandable under the circumstances.

But accusing him of "abuse" for lashing out in deep pain, in response to her abuse, is not helpful and reflects a shocking lack of empathy that aggravates the situation. It is the equivalent of accusing a stabbing victim of "abuse" for calling her stabber a name while he is being stabbed. That is ridiculous.

Just because these are events that happened in the past does not negate the intensity of the trauma. In fact, it compounds the crime because this is news that was withheld from him.

So while it is important that zonie provide her with a safe environment to tell the truth,[which everyone agrees on] it is also important that she demonstrate some EMPATHY and understanding for her victim when he is on the floor bleeding. I think such a demonstration will go a long way in calming his reactions.

Thanks Mrs. W! We cross-posted, and ditto to you on your post.

Zonie...we are ALL rooting for your success as a TEAM!

Great posts LaLa.

2long,

I'll make this short, because I have no intention of engaging you in a pissing match. We simply see things from opposite ends of the BH spectrum, so it is not surprising that you would disagree with my perception. We have plowed this field before, and I see no reason to rehash our differences in perspectives and tolerances.

Wow, thanks for the responses everyone. We've taken the day off and MrsZ and I have been talking for 5 straight hours and I'm exhausted. I have followed the advice of others here before and told her how to tell me new details she remembers. I told her I might even get mad and call for a "time-out". She didn't follow my request and it hurts deeply. Will I continue to follow the MB plan? I have to. We have a 5-yr old girl and for her as much as anyone, I want to make the marriage work out. I have to pick my emasculated self off of the floor that is littered with the pieces of my self esteem and ask "please sir, may I have another"? I broke down in tears in front of her because my dog must have sensed my depression and just wanted to be next to me. That dog showed me more love and affection in that moment than MrsZ felt while having her A, and it just tore me down.

I have also dealt with her range of emotions from indignation for completing her story for you, to her calling herself names that I couldn't even have thought to call her. Will these pics end up somewhere outside of OMs possession? They could. Although in her fog, she feels he would NEVER do that...yeah, right! Like he's trustworthy. She was quite obviously a willing participant and I would never give the OM the power to know I wanted them back. And I couldn't trust him to give me all of them anyway. I will just have to live with knowing they're out there for the rest of my life.

I totally get the LB idea and I KNOW I can't do that, but it's hard!!! When it gets hard, I call for a time out. For the last five hours she gave me explicit details. Some without my prompting. Do I think I've gotten them all? No. How could I believe that? I think she sees the effect of not knowing and what it does to me now so I can only hope.

Shortly after the A was revealed she was worried that I'd leave. I said I would work on this until she gave me a reason not to. I've had plenty since then and you've all been here for me. I'm still here and wanting to do the work. So I don't know what the final reason to quit would be...I just know it's not now.

God bless you all for being here for us.

Applause to both you and Mrs. Z!!! Now you're cookin'. Know that all your cyber friends are praying for you. The Vets will help guide you through the Recovery Maze. It is a long road, BUT... the worst of it is right now.

God Bless You Both!!!!
WH2LE

Zonie, I'm impressed to no end that you can call a time out. I find it almost impossible. Good for you!!!!!

Good job, Zonie! As far as leaving, you may find something that makes you want to leave. THAT IS YOUR RIGHT. It is up to you to decide whether or not you want to stay.

You have a RIGHT to the full truth about your life.

You have a RIGHT to leave if you want.

I would only suggest that if you do feel like you want to get a divorce, that you HOLD THAT THOUGHT for a year before you act on it. Your anger is temporary, but divorce is permanent. Making such a life changing decision is NEVER good while under duress.

Hang in there, you will get through this.

Mel, I completely agree. The Zones did a fabulous job.

It will be HARD, but it is necessary. Many couples don't get this kind of chance.

I would add that, like the "timeouts" Zonie describes, it may be necessary for either one of them 2 leave for a while 2 have the chance 2 calm down.

MyRev:

Okay.

-ol' 2long

Mr. Z, IMO Mrs. Z should still make the request. And immediately. And make it known in no uncertain terms that she wants them back.

You think you can force yourself to live with the knowledge that they're out there? I couldn't force myself to life with the fact that my FWW gave cards to the OM, much less photographs. She requested the OM to return them all, and he did. And if he doesn't, that will be just more proof to your W of what a creep he really is.

Excellent point ML.

To the Zonie's...My prayers are with you both and your daughter. I am glad that Mrs. Z stepped up to the plate.

LoBoy

Thanks MIM. For me that would violate NC. Right now I think we need NC more than a probable failed attempt to get the pics. Even less likely that he wouldn't keep a copy anyway..they're digital. It's going to be tough, but I have to learn to see clearly through all the possible scenarios and Contact would be yet another step backwards.

thank you maverick

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Mr Z,

Just want to say that I just read your wife's latest post. I'll tell you the same thing I told her...



Prayers for you both,

Mark

Hi - I just could not resist replying to both you and your wife.




You were not being abusive. I guarantee, your emotional response was "par". (In golf, a par is a predetermined number of strokes that a golfer should require to complete a hole)

Please do not add to your own suffering. Expressing your pain is important. This level of pain is usually expressed as anger, in very ugly words in this early stage. The anger keeps you at a safe distance from despair.

I see a hopeful situation. My view is longer than yours is right now.

Have hope.

Pep

Pepperband,

"The anger keeps you at a safe distance from despair."

That is so well said that it made me almost cry. So many times, it seems like folks are telling you that you can NOT be SO angry in the early stages of discovery, that your expression of any anger is a LB. I think that sometimes anger is the ONLY thing that can keep your head above water.

It certainly was that way for me.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom again.

Blessings,
WH2LE

Pepper,

Thanks for the post. I think my angry outburst was a LB. It certainly didn't deposit any Love units. Justified? That's debatable. Avoidable? No way, no how. Understanding where I was headed with my emotions made me avoid further LB's. I only knew that because of MB and these boards.

To continue with your golf analogy. I'm certainly not a par golfer. I'm probably about a double-bogey (2 over par). Tonight I told Mrs Z in the most nonthreatening way I could, that if she told me one more stinking lie after 4/29/08 and I caught her, I am picking up my ball and marking my scorecard as complete. I'm gone. I've "threatened" that before. I simply told her tonight. She said she understood that I needed to do this to "save face". While not using these words, I told her my "face" has already been scarred with the road rash of her dragging me down her pavement of lies, and saving face isn't what it's about anymore. It would be about saving my soul.

I do think she is starting to come out of the fog. Will I believe her 100%? Not ever. 90% and then verify, verify, verify.

It's up to her now. I'll try to be a good golf partner but I know with all that I am, that she's used her last mulligan.

Mr Z

Here's an observation:




Early in recovery, while the marriage is still very chaotic and unstable, we BS say things (like this) for our own benefit. For our own ears to notice. We posture to impress ourselves that we can and will "be gone" and that we do have strength and courage to leave an intolerable situation.

We say these things "to" the WS, but in reality, it is not so much to threaten our WS as it is to boost our confidence that we do have power over our own lives. (mainly because we feel we lost all power and control on D-day)

Any worried FWS reading this - when the BS stops talking threats is when the BS is more likely to walk out.

just my observation - sharing for your benefit

Pep

Pep...hit the nail on the head.

I postured in front of my friends when I boasted that I'd give MrsZ enough rope to hang herself, but by God, she knew that if she ever screwed around I would "be gone"! I swear that I even said that to a friend on D-day, hours before the admission by her. Oh, the irony!! I was so in love with my pride that I just knew I would have the strength to leave..or so I wanted to believe. In the last few days and weeks, my pride has been kicked to the curb. Some folks, even in this forum, question why I would stay now knowing what I do. I don't have an answer, but it sure the hell isn't pride anymore.

I do know that the serenity and peace that I feel now knowing that I will leave is different than the pride I "threatened" with before. Your advice should be well received. When the "threats" stop, and the calm disclosure of the end begins for whatever their reasons...it's real.

Great way to put that into words. I threatened for the better part of a year. Well, the first few months after dday I(BS) just lived in fear of offending H(WS) again because I was sucked into believing his justifications. Or I believe he believed them. Then the threats. Begging, pleading, followed by threats and confusion over why he wasn't giving this the importance I was. Then it got to the point when I was done. I'm not wasting my breath. I've found an attorney, I'm updating my resume and unless he has something really worthwhile to say, I don't want to hear it. That was a few weeks ago. We're still here, but now he's working on this. It wasn't a ploy to make him finally shape up. All of what I felt was real. All of the actions I planned would have been followed. That made him realize that no matter how hard it was for him to admit that he behaved like total scum at that time, it had to be done. His fear that I'd leave when I learned something new about the A didn't matter. That was a 50/50 chance. That I'd leave because he wasn't giving full disclosure and doing the required work was 100%. It made a huge impact when it wasn't just an angry outburst that he could calm and move away from. If this is where you truly are, let Mrs. Z see all of it. Keep her informed of your progress in moving on-"I've had enough, you have the opportunity to repair the damage you caused and you've chosen not to take it. I've chosen not to wait. I have taken (step x)in moving on" Only if you really are. And it doesn't have to be as big as finding a place to live. This is what makes you feel in control, not what may or may not spur her to action. Your actions have to be for your benefit. If seeing them makes her take R more seriously, wonderful. If not, you're getting yourself to a place where you're ok and that's wonderful too. By saying this I am in no way saying you should give up on the M. You keep up your end always. Work on individual issues, look at problems from your M, visit MB, keep up MC if this is something you're doing, let her know the lines of communication will be open if she wants to make a sincere effort. But if you are in a place where you are so angry and frustrated (applying my emotions here) by her lack of committment to your marriage again -remaining motionless and feeling stuck or helpless won't benefit you or your M. Just more room for LBs and resentment.
I'm sure I'll get "blasted" for some of my sentiments here, so let me put in the disclaimer that I'm describing my situation, my feelings and what worked for me and even if you aren't finding any useful suggestions to apply to your M, please take away the idea that you're not alone in how you're feeling and there is support and understanding for you here.

Turksmom,

As is always the case it seems, your post is timely. I had it tonight. After a case of "why don't you believe me now"? from Mrs Z, and my having to constantly remind her of why, I had enough. I was ready to go. I felt peace in my thoughts of living alone vs. my hell of living with her. Serenity vs. barbed wire. I chose, yet again, the barbed wire. Soon this emotional hell will start affecting my job and I am trying so very hard to let it not effect our DD. Tonight was us dealing with her indignation that I didn't believe that now she really, really, really, no fingers crossed, I'm not kidding, trust me, I'm not lying anymore attempt at truth (even though I lied to you less that 24 hours ago). She was so upset that I didn't believe her that I just gave up. I pulled out a cloth measuring tape and showed her that my patience with her was less than a centimeter from falling off the edge and she is pushing the wrong way. Visuals are good. I hate what I've become, but like you, I really felt I had given it my all. Looks like I've got just a little bit more left.

Glad to hear you once again found just a little more. It's awfully hard to look at your kids and not find just a little. From what you've shared, it sounds like Mrs.Z is honest in her desire to repair the M. If that's true, keep looking for that little bit of hope and strength. She will come to realize the full impact of her actions one day.The question is whether she'll do it soon enough to make a difference in your marriage. As long as you keep strong on your side, there's a very good chance she will. It isn't easy and I'm not yet in a place to make the determination that it is absolutely worth everything we go through. But I have faith that it will be. I thought H had understood and taken responsibility for his actions much earlier than he had and this was causing much of my frustration. How could he continue to dismiss what I need to heal after he did this horrible thing? The problem was he understood it was wrong logically and morally. He felt bad that he hurt me and our kids and didn't protect our M. He really did try. But it wasn't until the emotion of the situation hit him that he really got it. That's when it was no longer an excuse for what led him to that point. That's when I no longer had to hear him say how hurt he was, how bad he feels, how hard it is for him to talk to me about the A. He just finally "got it". Other members describe it like floodgates opening and I didn't understand until it happened. It's a turning point when the WS stops protecting himself and will do absolutely anything to heal the BS and the M.
Take care of yourself, but in doing so, don't forget to think long term. You're still there because you want your M and family intact. You love your wife. Even if you have to step back from the M to keep yourself sane, continue to behave with your ultimate goal always in your mind. Stay strong.

There will be many more "had it" moments ahead. Pace yourself.
This too is "par".


This sort of conversation is circular when you are dealing with a FWW who can barely think straight because her emotionality is still at a very high level. Read my post to her. She has been focused on appearances and superficiality for a long time. She is going for the quick fix.

"Say you trust me so I can feel good about myself".

She is relying on other validation to feel self worth, and you are not providing it for her.



It may have looked like "indignation" to your eyes, but I figure this was experienced as panic and self-loathing inside her heart.

"Please, tell me I am a good person now so I can stop smelling the crappy thoughts inside of me. I stink, tell me I don't."



Actually, you are doing quite well !

I see lots of hopeful progress. Don't rush any decision.

Pep

I didn't read all of the replies...

but here's my two cents...

it is as common thread in affairs that WS upon revealing information and details about the affair...
is rarely a whole truth and nothing but the truth thing...

revealing the truth and details of an affair is a process...

and for the BS seeking the truth and details.... a great unfair burdon is placed upon them to make the WS feel safe...

it is often that the first "truths" are water testing truths to see the reaction...

if I tell the WS something perceived as "minor" in the life of an affair...and the BS has an emotional explosion or becomes ballistic...then how will it ever be safe to reveal "major" truths of the affair...

BS asking for the truth dayum well better prepare for the truth...and lots of discussion needs to go in to reactions to the truth..
expectations of the truth....
and if deal breaker exist...then you better decide if the deal breakers are greater in the long term goal of recovery....
etc etc etc


Also as no contact becomes a longer time period it is with every relationship end, know that perceptions change....

anyone who has broken up with someone be it affair or non affair..will. have changing emotions and reactions to things from that relationship...and so changing stories is not always a lie....

but time and distance and the cooling of emotions and rational thought...do change what we once believed...

there are many who had affairs and in ending it thought they were soul mates...who now months to years laters can not even comprehend how they ever believed such a thing about that person...

you can not pigeon hole WS and FWS thoughts and revelations on the affair to be the end all be all fact....

and you should not if again the long term goal is REBUILDING of a marriage....

these things will stall you
trip you up
create victim like thinking processes...
come back to haunt and bite recovery....

it's a painful process but it is a process and you need to be well prepared to enter the recovery process...

you need to focus on long term goals
you need to pray for guidance and strength..
you need to establish plans of disclosure that have ending and begining times so that they do not become 18 hour sessions that break down in to emotional puke....and chaos...
disclosure needs a time limit of discussion and ending point

disclosure needs to be done with great tenderness...
support....
and boundaries...

reactions need to be discussed prior to their occurance...
safety words and stops in place...

you also need to be aware of the inate differnces that exist between men and women...
what is major to a woman may be minor to man...

yeah so what says the male WS I sent flowers...they meant nothing...

while the female BS sees that has such an afront to get over...

and the same with a male BS and female WS...usually over physical acts etc....

there are differences...and different triggers....

recovery is hard hard hard....
the waters are insidiously dangerous...mirky and black with great periods of treachory...

keep thinking you are both paddling through it together...

think of the goal down the road...

don't get bogged down in the mudd....

both need to seek and pray for Grace and gobs and gobs of humility...

ARK^^

ark^^ thanks for the input. It isn't so much the details and their impact anymore. Like many here, I need to know them, but I'm not getting them. Like last night when I got another one when she told me that "yes, I did tell him I love him". This was after telling me she had not. My reaction was that this was par for the course, to use a wizened vets analogy. It is just becoming routine for us now. My anger only arises when she goes on the offensive in her indignation that I don't believe her now. She has to stop.

She made some some progress today...she did some good things. She gets so mad when she says "what am I supposed to do to make this right"? I don't give her the prescription. She needs to figure it out. I give her the end-state, which is me believing she is trying. She has to figure out the path to get there.

So today she went to her mother and her boss (the SF often occurred in at work), and confessed that she had been lying to even them. Big risk on her part, but she was trying to make amends to me because she previously told them it was my fault that she was an emotional wreck, and not that she had an A. This to me, is only a first step on a very narrow footpath, but she took the step herself without me telling her what to do. I'm hoping it will lead to more meaningful work for us. She's been beaten up pretty bad on MB, but I think she's seeing that she earned a lot of it. She may post later. You guys have no idea how you are helping me.

Excellent point, Zonie! If she really wants to make it work, she should put in huge efforts rather than asking you to do all the hard work. Of course she isn't a mind reader, so a few tips from you from time to time would probably be helpful, but you shouldn't be required to lead her like a child. I am praying for both of you.

No, good point. I got so fed up with her questioning what she "should" have said vs. what she did, that I actually had a conversation with myself in front of her acting out what I needed to hear vs. what she told me. It was surreal and she was surprised. Maybe that will serve as sort of a guidepost as she tries to find the path with me.