Mr Z

Here's an observation:




Early in recovery, while the marriage is still very chaotic and unstable, we BS say things (like this) for our own benefit. For our own ears to notice. We posture to impress ourselves that we can and will "be gone" and that we do have strength and courage to leave an intolerable situation.

We say these things "to" the WS, but in reality, it is not so much to threaten our WS as it is to boost our confidence that we do have power over our own lives. (mainly because we feel we lost all power and control on D-day)

Any worried FWS reading this - when the BS stops talking threats is when the BS is more likely to walk out.

just my observation - sharing for your benefit

Pep

Pep...hit the nail on the head.

I postured in front of my friends when I boasted that I'd give MrsZ enough rope to hang herself, but by God, she knew that if she ever screwed around I would "be gone"! I swear that I even said that to a friend on D-day, hours before the admission by her. Oh, the irony!! I was so in love with my pride that I just knew I would have the strength to leave..or so I wanted to believe. In the last few days and weeks, my pride has been kicked to the curb. Some folks, even in this forum, question why I would stay now knowing what I do. I don't have an answer, but it sure the hell isn't pride anymore.

I do know that the serenity and peace that I feel now knowing that I will leave is different than the pride I "threatened" with before. Your advice should be well received. When the "threats" stop, and the calm disclosure of the end begins for whatever their reasons...it's real.

Great way to put that into words. I threatened for the better part of a year. Well, the first few months after dday I(BS) just lived in fear of offending H(WS) again because I was sucked into believing his justifications. Or I believe he believed them. Then the threats. Begging, pleading, followed by threats and confusion over why he wasn't giving this the importance I was. Then it got to the point when I was done. I'm not wasting my breath. I've found an attorney, I'm updating my resume and unless he has something really worthwhile to say, I don't want to hear it. That was a few weeks ago. We're still here, but now he's working on this. It wasn't a ploy to make him finally shape up. All of what I felt was real. All of the actions I planned would have been followed. That made him realize that no matter how hard it was for him to admit that he behaved like total scum at that time, it had to be done. His fear that I'd leave when I learned something new about the A didn't matter. That was a 50/50 chance. That I'd leave because he wasn't giving full disclosure and doing the required work was 100%. It made a huge impact when it wasn't just an angry outburst that he could calm and move away from. If this is where you truly are, let Mrs. Z see all of it. Keep her informed of your progress in moving on-"I've had enough, you have the opportunity to repair the damage you caused and you've chosen not to take it. I've chosen not to wait. I have taken (step x)in moving on" Only if you really are. And it doesn't have to be as big as finding a place to live. This is what makes you feel in control, not what may or may not spur her to action. Your actions have to be for your benefit. If seeing them makes her take R more seriously, wonderful. If not, you're getting yourself to a place where you're ok and that's wonderful too. By saying this I am in no way saying you should give up on the M. You keep up your end always. Work on individual issues, look at problems from your M, visit MB, keep up MC if this is something you're doing, let her know the lines of communication will be open if she wants to make a sincere effort. But if you are in a place where you are so angry and frustrated (applying my emotions here) by her lack of committment to your marriage again -remaining motionless and feeling stuck or helpless won't benefit you or your M. Just more room for LBs and resentment.
I'm sure I'll get "blasted" for some of my sentiments here, so let me put in the disclaimer that I'm describing my situation, my feelings and what worked for me and even if you aren't finding any useful suggestions to apply to your M, please take away the idea that you're not alone in how you're feeling and there is support and understanding for you here.

Turksmom,

As is always the case it seems, your post is timely. I had it tonight. After a case of "why don't you believe me now"? from Mrs Z, and my having to constantly remind her of why, I had enough. I was ready to go. I felt peace in my thoughts of living alone vs. my hell of living with her. Serenity vs. barbed wire. I chose, yet again, the barbed wire. Soon this emotional hell will start affecting my job and I am trying so very hard to let it not effect our DD. Tonight was us dealing with her indignation that I didn't believe that now she really, really, really, no fingers crossed, I'm not kidding, trust me, I'm not lying anymore attempt at truth (even though I lied to you less that 24 hours ago). She was so upset that I didn't believe her that I just gave up. I pulled out a cloth measuring tape and showed her that my patience with her was less than a centimeter from falling off the edge and she is pushing the wrong way. Visuals are good. I hate what I've become, but like you, I really felt I had given it my all. Looks like I've got just a little bit more left.

Glad to hear you once again found just a little more. It's awfully hard to look at your kids and not find just a little. From what you've shared, it sounds like Mrs.Z is honest in her desire to repair the M. If that's true, keep looking for that little bit of hope and strength. She will come to realize the full impact of her actions one day.The question is whether she'll do it soon enough to make a difference in your marriage. As long as you keep strong on your side, there's a very good chance she will. It isn't easy and I'm not yet in a place to make the determination that it is absolutely worth everything we go through. But I have faith that it will be. I thought H had understood and taken responsibility for his actions much earlier than he had and this was causing much of my frustration. How could he continue to dismiss what I need to heal after he did this horrible thing? The problem was he understood it was wrong logically and morally. He felt bad that he hurt me and our kids and didn't protect our M. He really did try. But it wasn't until the emotion of the situation hit him that he really got it. That's when it was no longer an excuse for what led him to that point. That's when I no longer had to hear him say how hurt he was, how bad he feels, how hard it is for him to talk to me about the A. He just finally "got it". Other members describe it like floodgates opening and I didn't understand until it happened. It's a turning point when the WS stops protecting himself and will do absolutely anything to heal the BS and the M.
Take care of yourself, but in doing so, don't forget to think long term. You're still there because you want your M and family intact. You love your wife. Even if you have to step back from the M to keep yourself sane, continue to behave with your ultimate goal always in your mind. Stay strong.

There will be many more "had it" moments ahead. Pace yourself.
This too is "par".


This sort of conversation is circular when you are dealing with a FWW who can barely think straight because her emotionality is still at a very high level. Read my post to her. She has been focused on appearances and superficiality for a long time. She is going for the quick fix.

"Say you trust me so I can feel good about myself".

She is relying on other validation to feel self worth, and you are not providing it for her.



It may have looked like "indignation" to your eyes, but I figure this was experienced as panic and self-loathing inside her heart.

"Please, tell me I am a good person now so I can stop smelling the crappy thoughts inside of me. I stink, tell me I don't."



Actually, you are doing quite well !

I see lots of hopeful progress. Don't rush any decision.

Pep

I didn't read all of the replies...

but here's my two cents...

it is as common thread in affairs that WS upon revealing information and details about the affair...
is rarely a whole truth and nothing but the truth thing...

revealing the truth and details of an affair is a process...

and for the BS seeking the truth and details.... a great unfair burdon is placed upon them to make the WS feel safe...

it is often that the first "truths" are water testing truths to see the reaction...

if I tell the WS something perceived as "minor" in the life of an affair...and the BS has an emotional explosion or becomes ballistic...then how will it ever be safe to reveal "major" truths of the affair...

BS asking for the truth dayum well better prepare for the truth...and lots of discussion needs to go in to reactions to the truth..
expectations of the truth....
and if deal breaker exist...then you better decide if the deal breakers are greater in the long term goal of recovery....
etc etc etc


Also as no contact becomes a longer time period it is with every relationship end, know that perceptions change....

anyone who has broken up with someone be it affair or non affair..will. have changing emotions and reactions to things from that relationship...and so changing stories is not always a lie....

but time and distance and the cooling of emotions and rational thought...do change what we once believed...

there are many who had affairs and in ending it thought they were soul mates...who now months to years laters can not even comprehend how they ever believed such a thing about that person...

you can not pigeon hole WS and FWS thoughts and revelations on the affair to be the end all be all fact....

and you should not if again the long term goal is REBUILDING of a marriage....

these things will stall you
trip you up
create victim like thinking processes...
come back to haunt and bite recovery....

it's a painful process but it is a process and you need to be well prepared to enter the recovery process...

you need to focus on long term goals
you need to pray for guidance and strength..
you need to establish plans of disclosure that have ending and begining times so that they do not become 18 hour sessions that break down in to emotional puke....and chaos...
disclosure needs a time limit of discussion and ending point

disclosure needs to be done with great tenderness...
support....
and boundaries...

reactions need to be discussed prior to their occurance...
safety words and stops in place...

you also need to be aware of the inate differnces that exist between men and women...
what is major to a woman may be minor to man...

yeah so what says the male WS I sent flowers...they meant nothing...

while the female BS sees that has such an afront to get over...

and the same with a male BS and female WS...usually over physical acts etc....

there are differences...and different triggers....

recovery is hard hard hard....
the waters are insidiously dangerous...mirky and black with great periods of treachory...

keep thinking you are both paddling through it together...

think of the goal down the road...

don't get bogged down in the mudd....

both need to seek and pray for Grace and gobs and gobs of humility...

ARK^^

ark^^ thanks for the input. It isn't so much the details and their impact anymore. Like many here, I need to know them, but I'm not getting them. Like last night when I got another one when she told me that "yes, I did tell him I love him". This was after telling me she had not. My reaction was that this was par for the course, to use a wizened vets analogy. It is just becoming routine for us now. My anger only arises when she goes on the offensive in her indignation that I don't believe her now. She has to stop.

She made some some progress today...she did some good things. She gets so mad when she says "what am I supposed to do to make this right"? I don't give her the prescription. She needs to figure it out. I give her the end-state, which is me believing she is trying. She has to figure out the path to get there.

So today she went to her mother and her boss (the SF often occurred in at work), and confessed that she had been lying to even them. Big risk on her part, but she was trying to make amends to me because she previously told them it was my fault that she was an emotional wreck, and not that she had an A. This to me, is only a first step on a very narrow footpath, but she took the step herself without me telling her what to do. I'm hoping it will lead to more meaningful work for us. She's been beaten up pretty bad on MB, but I think she's seeing that she earned a lot of it. She may post later. You guys have no idea how you are helping me.

Excellent point, Zonie! If she really wants to make it work, she should put in huge efforts rather than asking you to do all the hard work. Of course she isn't a mind reader, so a few tips from you from time to time would probably be helpful, but you shouldn't be required to lead her like a child. I am praying for both of you.

No, good point. I got so fed up with her questioning what she "should" have said vs. what she did, that I actually had a conversation with myself in front of her acting out what I needed to hear vs. what she told me. It was surreal and she was surprised. Maybe that will serve as sort of a guidepost as she tries to find the path with me.