It is all over! - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

H and I went to court yesterday and the judge granted our divorce. This just proves my point that when it really comes down to it, these betrayers don't have the emotionally maturity or common sense to look their spouse in the eye, admit what they have done wrong and try to change it. My H is ambivilant toward the OW (whom he is living with)and completely unhappy with himself. It obviously is not the "pie in the sky" mentality that is seems at first. So, those of you who are sitting around, begging, pleading, waiting for your wayward spouse to reject the OP and come back to you.....don't bother. Those kind of people are only going to drag you down anyway. Do yourself a favor...stop being the victim and stand up for your rights. You can't MAKE a person want to be married. It is only a desperate last attempt to hold on to something that obviously was flawed from the beginning.------------------ Rachel :)

I'm afraid that I don't agree with the comment about the marriage being never meant to be...at least for me. Am I just trying to hold on? Yes.Our two beautiful children are what keeps me hopeful. Don't get me wrong...I'm just saying for me that the marriage was not a mistake until 13 years later when I couldn't believe this was happening to me.I hope you will continue to be happy in yourself, that's what we all need.You're right tho in saying that H is completely unhappy w/ himself. My H also would live with OW but then come to me and say that things weren't all that rosy. I don't jnow if it was because of her or because he missed our kids so much.Best wishes.

Like I have said in other posts. I have finally realized that I can still love my stbx but I can also love myself. And even though I love him dearly....I will make it without him. I too, will be standing in court with him, probably in less than a month and I am scared to death. I am so afraid that when they make you say that stuff at the end...that the marriage is irrevocably (sp?) broken that I am going to break down and not be able to say it. I hope I make it Nancy

Wow! I am going to be going through this divorce stuff here too. I am so sad right now. I have another post on the board, it is over or something like that. I called legal aid today because I can't even afford a lawyer. My husband won't even take the responsibility to file himself. I don't know what to do or think. Thankfully, my sister's husband is a lawyer so I can call him and ask him for legal advice. I wish he could help me with the divorce but they live in another state. My husband left last night and I think that he thinks that since he is gone he has no responsibility to us. Well, I heard that he has to support us as long as we are still married. So, I think I am going to try with all my might to keep the house for as long as I can. I don't want to give up everything I have. He wants us to move out so he can have the house. WEll, I am tired of making things easy for him. He sure as heck hasn't made it easy for us!Good luck to all of you!~Woozy

I truely feel for you. I was in a long term relationship that started off as an affair then we stayed together through some pretty wild stuff (I now only need to sleep with a family member to make it onto Jerry Springer). I gave my SO a ring this summer and she "upgraded" this promise ring to a proposal. We had already been going through the rebuilding of our relationship after I had an EMR. We were working at things then OM entered the picture. There is alot more to this, but suffice to say she is with him now and not with me. You should count yourself as lucky to be out of a relationship wich is obviously not allowing for truth and trust to be rebuilt. I understand that it doesn't make it easier though. Don't know about you, but I've actually been putting together a 'play list' of songs for how I've been feeling. I'm trying to assemble a bigger list to include how I've felt dring the relationship, and have begun to start looking for the songs I want to incorporate into my life as I leave this part behind and get on with rebuilding my self worth and trust in others.Umm, I just reread this and realized that most of what I've written was for my benifit of venting as much as anything. Hope you can find some comfort or a hidden pearl within my rantings...------------------ "Remember that every now and then you need to stop and eat the roses." -Bill The Cat

Camarinick,Iam sorry, I don't agree. As i just sais in another post, marriages and realtionships require work. True love, one and only love, the one that is meant to be is not realistic. If it were, do you think that the one you were meant to be with, of all the people in the world, happens to live within 50 miles of you? Hopw could people marry after a death? Why is the divorice rate for arranged marriages so low? Hmmmmmmm.

Rachel, I'm so sorry for you.It's getting to be"take a number"for divoces on this board.You are right about not being able to make someone want to stay married to you.I don't agree about the marriage being"flawed from the beginning",though.My W and I were best friends for two years before we married.Things were pretty good for a long time.But over the years,things change,people change,goals change.Maybe in some ways,we did grow apart.We fell out of love,but settled down into a comfortable relationship.Thats when our marriage started to fall apart.Don't think that all of your marriage was wrong,and was never meant to be.Try to remember the good times,and forget the bad.That's all you can do.Now is the time to go to work on yourself.They say it takes about two years to get over a divorce,so give yourself time to heal.Try not to let your anger over what happened tear you up.It'll serve no purpose.Let it go,and try to find some peace.Take care. --Murph

I am sorry Cam.. I feel for you.. But, I have to disagree with you.. There are some marriages that can be saved. Maybe not all, but I am living proof that your spouse can get through a very serious affair.. My h lived with ow,, we faced divorce,, but it never happend.. He has been home for 6 months and I have to say a marriage can survive this.. We talk more, we now go to church together,, we have went through our emotional needs.. All things we never did before the affair.. there was a time that I never thought this possible.. With hard work and faith,, we have made it and are continuing to grow.. There were a lot of bumps along the way,, but well worth sacrificing some of my pride to get where we are at..A lot of the success stories dont stay around here, because it gets hard to continue to be reminded of what happend, by reading others stories... It breaks my heart to see anyone else going through what I did... I do read sometimes, but I rarely post... I do want to help others though..

Rachel, I'm sorry that you are hurting so much right now... eventually you will be able to think about the good times without all the pain. <A HREF="http://hicards.com" TARGET=_blank>http://hicards.com</A> pickup number 012801192812811Hugs & Kisses, TCF

Sorry to hear about the final divorce, Rachel. I know you have tried & cried and struggled and hoped and prayed for a different result. I've lurked on your thread both here and at DB so I'm familiar with your story. I totally agree with your words of advice. People who are struggling with infidelity should move on and start their own recovery right away. Think where you'd be now if you had just walked away from your H and your marriage from the beginning. Think how closer you'd be to enjoying your own personal happiness instead of waiting for someone else to give it (back) to you. I'm not trying to be mean, somehow the above paragraph sounds wrong. What I'm trying to say is you went thru hell to learn a valuable lesson. You would have never learned it any other way. You can come back and tell people your story but they are not going to listen. Don't take it personally.As wise as your advice is, as much as you & I believe it, no one will "get it" from listening to you or me. They have to go thru their own hell to learn it just like you did - just like we all do. There's a lot to learn in life, but it hurts and it makes us cry. But without lessons, where would we be? Earth is a soul-school and you just passed your relationship test with flying colors. Look within yourself for happiness and love. That's where it is. People cannot be controlled or forced or begged or loved into doing anything. They've got their own path to follow and that's just the way it is. If something is meant to be, it will be. I wish the best of everything to you and your 3 beautiful children. I just know you'll be ok in the end. Believe in Fate and Destiny, k? Peace

Rachel, I'm sorry that the divorce went through. Now, even though I'm semi-retired, I feel the need to step in here, because I see the all-too common thread of righteous "it's all the betrayers fault" that is completely against the MarriageBuilder's method, and very poor advice for saving a marriage. Should you beg or plead for your wayward spouse to end an affair? No. Because it's not effective.Should you wait for the wayward spouse to end an affiar? Yes---if you still love them. But, you need to be doing work for yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>People who are struggling with infidelity should move on and start their own recovery right away. Think where you'd be now if you had just walked away from your H and your marriage from the beginning. Think how closer you'd be to enjoying your own personal happiness instead of waiting for someone else to give it (back) to you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>People who are struggling with infidelity should start their own recovery right away---in a way that gives the marriage the best chance to survive. Not move on immediately without doing the real relationship "skill work" to survive.If you immediately leave your marriage in bitterness, blame the spouse and OP, and if you don't take any of the responsibility for your failing marriage or rectify YOUR behaviors that helped to cause it, then you're very likely to repeatedly fail in future relationships. And there are lots of people who do exactly that, again and again.Instead, I would encourage those who are dealing with infidelity to start learning HOW to be a good spouse. Practice as much as they can (and can bear) with their spouse---even if they are unfaithful. And not rush into a divorce until they are the ones who want to be done with it.There's nothing desperate in that plan. It's the quickest way to finding healing and closure, and it also allows a marriage to thrive.

Well first I want to say that I'm so sorry to hear about your divorce and I hope that you will heal soon. You are in my prayers....You said.... "So, those of you who are sitting around, begging, pleading, waiting for your wayward spouse to reject the OP and come back to you.....don't bother. Those kind of people are only going to drag you down anyway."Like K said in the above post, begging and pleading is out of the question. It's belittling to yourself and doesn't earn you any respect from your spouse. However, waiting is a CHOICE. Personally I think waiting and bettering ourselves while we wait, is the answer. And if it works out, then great. If it doesn't work out, I can walk away with no regrets. I would never have to toture myself with the thought of... what if I would have waited, what if I would have did this, or not done that. But I could walk away knowing that I did everything I could. As far as the "those type of people" generalization, it is unfair. I know you are hurting and I (as a betrayer) do NOT take offense. But for the newbies that are here who does have hope(and rightfully so) for their spouses who are wayward, it is unfair for you to tell them not to bother or in essence, give up.Carmarinick, you gave it the best you could. Granted you are not perfect, but you gave it all you had. Its obvious that you are hurting and my prayers go out to you. I hope that you will find healing in time. But as you hurt, please find comfort in knowing that you have friends here. And also the Best comfort lies in the arms of God. Stay encouraged. ------------------ "If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."lady_divine77@yahoo.com[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited January 28, 2000).]

Rachael, I know this is one of the most painful days of your life, probably next to discovery.I know you are not happy with the results of your marriage. But you stuck by your guns, made sure you weren't a "doormat". You let your feelings be known, that right is right and wrong is wrong. You are the right one here.You chose being right over being married.Your goal wasn't to restore the marriage, but to be right. Sometimes being right has it's own consequences.Who knows though? Maybe with the rightness you feel now, maybe with the divorce finalized, maybe now you will feel he has his just punishment, and you might now decide to create a safe environment for your husband? And maybe now, that you demonstrated to him that he isn't going to have an affair and get away with it, maybe now you will feel free to be a friend to your husband and maybe by the time his affair is over - he will want you again?I say, just because you are divorced, there is still an opportunity to work on your relationship and hopefully restore your marriage. Many divorced couples remarry.tnt

Cam, I sense your frustration, and I'm sorry about your divorce, but I think it is your frustrationg speaking here: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This just proves my point that when it really comes down to it, these betrayers don't have the emotionally maturity or common sense to look their spouse in the eye, admit what they have done wrong and try to change it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My husband did exactly that. And he has changed. I have changed too. And like K said, the changes we make in ourselves will benefit us and we can learn from our mistakes.My h had one long, intense relationship before he met me. She ended it without giving him the chance to understand, to tie up loose ends. She would not speak to him about any of it. That would leave someone lost, as he was. I see a lot of people hurting on this board, but they ARE figuring out what went wrong, trying to rebuild, coming out of it with a better understanding of themselves and their spouses. They are not sitting around begging.

camarinick,Sorry to hear that the divorce went through. In a recent post of yours I thought there was hope that it might not.While the divorce went through, you know "It" is not over. Your Ex is still confused and involved in a relationship that has little chance of success. You and he will also be forever linked because of your three beautiful children. For their sake, do your best to have a good relationship with your ex. As others have said, you may still have a chance to remarry him. I've seen it happen before in cases like yours. One word of advice though if the question ever comes up, is to remind him that you only have sex with your husband and since he is no longer your husband, he'll have to look elsewhere.Good luck in the days ahead. Be sure and take care of yourself and do some nice things for yourself. Enjoy your time with your kids.

I am not opposed to Plan A, Plan B, etc.... but here is the thing. Knowingly allowing your spouse to spend time with the OP (which hundreds of people on this board have admitted to doing), hoping that this "Plan A" attack will lead them back is ridiculous. It basically says, "Hey you can have the OP, and I won't make you account for that.. in fact, I will sit home and watch tv by myself, while my spouse has sex with someone else. Oh, and by the way, I will still be here for you to try and work on our marriage." People, it doesn't work like that. Do you honestly think that they can begin to refocus on their marriage when they still have the OP. Nope, it is paramount to an alcoholic. It is called enabling and any psychologist you talk to will tell you it is a time-bomb. Give them their options and a limited time frame to decide and then go from there. If they don't want to give up OP, then there you have it. No amount of Plan Aing is going to change their minds. Let them go their way. Don't be responsible for continuing the infidelity and passively encouraging the affair. Put a stop to it while you still have the power by making them choose. It is not about being right.. it is about standing up for what God says is right. Infidelity is a sin and soem of you are unknowingly conspiring to keep that going.------------------ Rachel :)

Rachael,Go read lostva's post about poptarts....TNT

And once again I say Plan A and B both have limits. We, ourselves set them. Neither you or no one else can tell me or anyone when to quit. You stuck it out as long as you could and we are doing the same. I realize your divorce is over and I am sincerely sorry, like I said before. But I don't think your negativity and or bitterness is helping anyone. Your situation may be similar to others but it is unique in itself. There have been positive post by many here lately. That's the kind of encouragemnet we need. God said in his word that a man/woman can depart on the grounds of adultery, yes. But he did not say we SHOULD. That is a decision an indivifual must make. God is a forgiving God. He loves all. And because people are staying with their spouses, it does not mean that they aren't standing up for God. In a matter of fact, I believe God is the one who has given them the strength to do so. This is not about what's right or wrong. It's about the two involved in the marriage. You make the decisions for your life and we all make ours. And it's unfair for you to call what we are doing ridiculous. If you just sat around on the couch watching TV while your H was out. It doesn't mean that the rest of us are doing that. Plan A is not only about the other spouse, but it's about improving ourselves too. And we never have power over our spouses. We can't make them do anything. You can decide whether you stay or leave and so could they! I usually don't respond in this manner and I hope you do not take any offense. ------------------ "If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."lady_divine77@yahoo.com

I want to tell everyone that there is hope... You never know what is around the corner for you.. I just cant believe the way my situation has turned from the most horrifying experience in my life to building a wonderful relationship with my h.. He has changed a lot from this and I actually am happier now than I was before his affair..!! So there is hope... A lot of hope.. Believe me when I say it.. I was on the verge of divorce.. split up the furniture, got a lawyer, agreed to a financial settlement.. My h signed a lease on an apartment with ow... it was over.. I did use plan A and B both... I will tell you though.. My plan A did not include a free pass for my h to sleep around with ow.. Anytime I found out he saw her after h moved back home,,we had some major words... And it went like that for a bit, and I was actually planning on leaving him if I had found out about any contact with her.. and he knew it.. But I had to swallow my pride a little and as long as I was beginning to see progress in my h, I didnt give up hope.. I knew he was suffering from withdrawal and had occasional conversations with her.. I told him it was unacceptable.. Pretty soon, I saw my h gradually coming around....and eventually he broke through.. it was really hard on me... But if they are trying and reading and doing a lot to beat it, I would hang in there.. But watch there actions not their words.... I would not have been able to approve of my h sleeping with her and sleeping with me and saying honey, its ok, I will be there,, that really isnt what plan A is about,, In plan A, they need to be following the guidelines and expectations you have for them..If you say its ok,, they will never feel as though they have any conseqences and they will drag it on for a lot longer..... Its hard to be strong, but in the end, that is what helped save my marriage. [This message has been edited by mickey65 (edited January 31, 2000).][This message has been edited by mickey65 (edited January 31, 2000).]

You have every right in the world to be hurt and angry. It’s real easy to feel that because these principles did not save your marriage, how they could all be wrong. But, the book is “Surviving An Affair,” not “Save Your Marriage. Guaranteed!” These principples will help you to get through all of the effects of the betrayal and the divorce. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Give them their options and a limited time frame to decide and then go from there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn’t that what we are all doing? They have their options. Work on the marriage or get divorced. We haven’t told them the timeline. Most of us don’t really know when it is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Infidelity is a sin and soem of you are unknowingly conspiring to keep that going.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If this is the case then putting money in the bank is helping a bank robber to sin. I know what she is doing. How are we unknowingly conspiring? By unconditionally loving our spouses? Our spouses know what they are doing is wrong and they know it is hurting us, but at this point most of them don’t care, or perhaps feel too hurt to do anything about it. When we all chose to get married, we didn’t want to tell our spouses what they did or didn’t have to do. They are grown ups (well, at least they were at one time ; [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

and they can make their own decisions.At some time in your relationship, didn’t you feel that you could respectfully speak with your h, tell him your feelings about something and he would act on that because he wanted to do it for you? That’s all we are trying to do here. “But it isn’t the same thing. Sure it’s not, but the principles of it are the same.“ We don’t want to demand our spouses to do anything. Why should it be different because it hurts more? Maybe you feel you need some “justice in this.” How is anything you could do or say really going to affect the situation. You might get a load off your chest but what will your h think of you then?Just some thoughts.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited January 31, 2000).]

You know what? I am so sick of the blatent stupidity of this particular board. (No offense to those of you who are actually taking charge of your lives.) By not giving your spouse a timeline or not even knowing when the timeline is yourself, you ARE participating in allowing the cheating to go on. Yes, I think marriage is worth a shot, but if the betrayer has made it clear that they are not interested in anything but the OP, then, please, be somewhat intelligent and get the clue. You people are the reason our society places no blame on adulterers. If no one gives them any consequences for their actions, then how will it ever change. Yes, I did my part in my marriage, but my H made it clear that he wasn't interested in working on it and wanted to be with OW. I can't tie his hands to the chair and make him stay. Nor, would I want to. God gave us free choice.. all of us. But you are allowing yourself to be imprisioned by your spouse and the OP. Waiting, trying to make yourselves better...for who? Yourself? NO, for your betraying spouse so that they will come home. That is the most spineless, clingy, enabling thing you could possible do. And this board is nothing but a way for people to justify to themselves and others, why they can't stand up for morality and their own rights. So, if you all want to travel together down this lonely, self-pitying road...go for it. But, yes, I did the right thing. I am further along in my recovery than all of you will be in a year. Why? Because I cared enough about myself and my children, not to wallow in misery and let my H walk all over all of us. Please stop doing that to yourselves and your family. As far as this board, I don't think you will ever get it so.. I will stop trying.------------------ Rachel :)

I respect your opinion. You did the right thing for you, now let us do the right thing for us. We are all taking charge of our lives. And how we chose to do that is not for you to judge. That last time I spoke with God his name was not carmarinick! Your name calling is not even needed. No one judged you or called you 'spineless' when we disagreed, we simply offered our support and if you can't respect that or the decision we make for ourselves, then that is sad. It shows a lack of character. And if your sick of this board, then leave. Until then like I said before sorry for your pain and I hope you heal real soon. You have a lot of bitterness and it shows. You are in my prayers.... ------------------ "If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Yes, I agree with Jamie-Lee. You are bitter and have every reason to be. And I am sorry about that.I for one am not sitting at home waiting for my husband to come home. I am working on being a better me so that I can be a better mother, friend and sometime down the road, a better partner, lover and spouse. The stuff I have learned here can not make my husband come home, but it can make me a stronger person than what I was before my H started his affair. I was a depressed, clingy, whiny, wimp. I am not that anymore and it's only taken me a month to get here. I AM a stronger person and if I've gotten that from MB, bless all of the people here who have helped me become that. I know that if I had not found MB, I would still be curled up in a ball on my couch crying all day long. I certainly didn't get this kind of support from family and friends. It enabled me to get up and wake up and be the best me I can. Can you honestly say that you learned nothing from here?Again I am sorry your marriage didn't work the way you wanted it to, but after the pain eases I'm sure you'll see that you have become a better and stronger person.Prayers, Mitzi

Dear Rachel - I am so sorry for the pain you are experiencing. I, too, am divorced now. My H refused to give up the OW. He is now married to her. I, too, held out hope for about a year that reconciliation would be possible. But it was clear that he had emotionally divorced me long ago. I wish with all my heart that my marriage could have been saved. My H knew that I loved him unconditionally, but that meant nothing to him. I did nothing to stop the divorce, but did nothing to hasten it, either. Two and a half years after he walked out, he finalized the divorce on the grounds that we had lived apart for a year. I am sad that he has thrown our life together away - he discarded me like a piece of trash he no longer had any use for. I did not deserve his shabby treatment in any way. I was a loyal, loving wife for 17 years. He is no longer worthy of my respect or trust. I decided he was not worthy of my love any longer, and that I was wasting my time waiting for him to become a decent, loving, caring husband. I agree that after a certain point, it is useless to keep hanging in there, emotionally destroying yourself over someone who longer cares in the least. But there are many people who are able to hold on longer than I was able to. My H clearly only cared about himself and his own wants - not the kind of person I want to be married to.Everyone has their own timetable and amount of pain they can endure. However, if the spouse will not end the affair after several years, and divorces you anyway, what can you do? I made it more than clear to my H that I would not even talk to him concerning reconciliation unless he totally ended his affair and vowed to never see or speak to her again. And if he came back because she had ended it, well, I was not going to be someone's second choice. He had to end it of his own accord.Bravo for you, Rachel for standing up for yourself. Your solution might not be for everyone, but it was the right one for you, as it was for me. In time, the bitterness will fade, and you will come to realize that you are better off alone than with someone with so little regard for you as a wife and as a human being. We now are free to seek happiness with a clear conscience, one not tainted with lying and cheating. I am much more at peace now that I am not being neglected, ignored, or treated with contempt by the man for whom I treated only with love. I took his emotional abuse and emotional blackmail for far longer than I should have. But I loved him, valued the committment I made, and believed that we could make it work. But he had NO desire to even try. I am sad for him - I think he made a mistake that he will one day live to regret. However, it is way past too late for any remarriage if he should decide he wants to come back.My prayers are with you, Rachel. Be strong, and build a new, wonderful life for yourself and your children. Love and God Bless - Lady M

Cam,I semi agree with you, I don't understand how some people can wait such long times for their spouses, but if they can, all the more power to them.I don't know the specifics in your case but in mine, I think my stbx(tommorrow will be just x) has wanted out of the marriage for a long time and the affair just sort of happened which gave her reason to get out.When we attempted reconciliation, and her heart was only in it for a week, it merely confirmed my suspicions that we were done. When she got back with om after talking so negatively, I decided I had had enough and restarted the divorce papers she had begun.As others have said, everyone has to set their own limits. I could only take 5-6 rejections. Some times I wonder if I had done a better job at Plan A would she have stayed, but other times I know it didn't matter.So I say to each his own. I am growing and bettering myslef for me and whom ever else comes along.May God Bless us all for our decisions!Bob------------------ "You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!" Mick Jagger

OK..now I just have to ask. I thought about this since I first read this thread, but kept my typing fingers to myself.It is none of my business and I am not trying to make a judgement here, but you getting a little judgemental yourself, so I just gotta ask.You recently posted you were still sleeping with your H even though the divorce was going through. With your attitude, what is your motivation in sleeping with your ex? ------------------ Faith, Hope, Love Remain, but the greatest of these is Love. 1 Corinthians 13:13

Rachel, Sorry if you feel we are all so stupid for doing what we believe is right. If we all knew the “correct” way of going down this path, then most of us wouldn’t be here to begin with. We are here to give each other support. Plan A/B are proven methods of getting through an affair with the least amount of pain & resentment. Still doesn’t mean it won’t hurt though.Sounds like you’re extremely bitter. You have a right to be. Please don’t be mad at us for doing the same thing you did for 8+ months. If you wanna scream and yell about your ex here, go for it. Don’t scream and yell at us because it didn’t work out for you.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

FHL and Chris: Excellent points.. I would be interested in knowing Cams answers to FHL'S question.

In answer to FHL's question.. my Ex and I slept together twice. It has been almost 2 months since the last time... and as far as I am concerned.. it will not happen again. My motivation for agreeing to sleep with him was simply power. I now have some power in terms of OW's view of him. It meant more to me a month ago. Now, I pretty much don't care.. optherwise I would have told her. So...was it the right decision at the time.. absolutely! Now, I have no interest in repeating that scenario. Hope that cures the wondering bug for all of you!------------------ Rachel :)

The way I looked at it when I found out about my H's affair was this: If he was sick with a high fever and was lying on the bed thrashing, screaming and maybe even striking out at me, I would be patient and loving towards him, realizing he was not in his right mind. If he got well and still chose to lie in the bed, thrashing and screaming, I would leave pretty fast. When H was having the affair, I could tell that he was not easy and comfortable in his mind. The vows said "in sickness and in health", so I figured this was the sickness part. We lived through the withdrawal phase and I held on for the year that he was still deciding if it was preferable to be married or to be single. I was nearing the end of my endurance, but about a month ago he started apologizing to me and I could tell that for once he knew it was THE TRUTH. He finally understood what damage had been done to our marriage by the affair. I finally understood that I was partly responsible for the state of our marriage before the affair, but not at all for the affair.Things have been very good since then. Lots of love deposits and few withdrawals. We are having fun again! The other day, he asked me why I hadn't given up on him and I told him that I kept remembering how happy we were for 16 years and what a neat life we had. It was really hard for me to get over this because we had been each other's only lover until the affair. There were times that I was so hurt and felt so left behind and alone that I really wanted "to show him how it feels", but I didn't. I truly believe that only God could have made me open and able to learn and grow this much, but as we all know, everything is possible with Him.

llll[This message has been edited by Samantha-MI (edited February 01, 2000).]

You want to talk about God and sin, then try "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" I do hope and pray your pain ends soon honestly it dose suck to hurt and I wish that pain on no one.------------------ "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding." -Proverbs 3:5 Take care and God Bless. lms20ish@jobe.net

camarinicki remember the day you came to these boards. i am sorry that you are feeling like you are. i am sorry that you, your children or your husband has had to go through any of this. i am mostly sorry though for your bitterness. that is the saddest part of this all.you claim to have moved on and are in a better place than the rest of us here. farther into recovery. i can not help but wonder if you have recovered at all? you talk much about what God wants. what is right in His eyes. bitterness is not among that. the Lord warns us of bitterness. you hold and have held much bitterness sense you first became aware of your husband's affair. if you truly search the bible it clearly states what marriage is about and what it should be. please read first Corinthians. there is a rhyme and reason for all aspects of marriage and one of those is forgiveness. forgiveness is necessary to allow a marriage to grow and prosper. bitterness prevents anyone from forgiving.you have made some pretty harsh judgments about all of us. i don't know where you think it fits in God's plan to judge anyone. (yes i do realize that you probably think i am judging you here. rather it is just making my own observations.) you seem to want everyone to feel as you do. it appears that you want to squash all the hopes of newbies here. let me tell you something, this is a marriage builders site. the objective here is to restore marriages. just because your marriage failed and you refused to bend does not give you the right to come here and try and prevent others who have hope or who are trying to grasp at hope. there is a saying that misery loves company, does that apply to you?you have been angry from the very beginning when you started posting here. i am not saying you don't have the right to be angry. we all have the right to be angry and all of us at one time or another have been. many of us realize though that the anger is getting us no where and we choose to give it up for the greater good of our marriages and ourselves. i think that you have missed part of the recovery process that is essential and that is the mourning of the death of your marriage. i do feel very sorry for you. i think that your attitude has been what has defeated you. in the meantime if you would refrain from trying to lead the flock here to your way of thinking it would be a compassionate thing to do.you are spreading venom here. that isn't a Godly thing or a very humanistic thing. everyone here is on a different page, in a different chapter but, we are all in the same book.while you are preaching of the good and evils of the right and wrongs you are missing a huge point. that is to do everything we do out of love. if the bible teaches us anything, it teaches us that if everything we do out of love then we are doing no harm and we are doing it with a clean heart.i can't imagine that you are feeling very good right now in many aspects of your life. i am so sorry for that. i pray for your complete and total recovery for you. i pray that you realize how you are effecting others. i pray for your husband, your children and you to be healed of all this pain. mostly i pray though that the good Lord removes this bitterness in your heart. i think that alone is your biggest obstacle right now.obviously this is an anonymous name for me here. i chose to reply to your post here in this disguise so as not to insight a war here on this much needed board. i do not want to cause anyone any grief, nor do i want to get into heated discussions with anyone here about any of this. i have made many valuable friends here. i don't want to get angry at them and i don't want them to become angry with me. i just felt that i could not let another day go by with you spreading such gloom and doom here. i know this will not stop you from doing it. this is a board where anyone has the freedom to post. i just hope this makes you realize that you are harming people with your negative postings. please try not to forget that this board is set up to support those of us who are trying to salvage our marriages or to support those of us who have been unable to do that. we the people here need love and support. we have all come here out of some desperation or another. being desperate does not make us weak, it makes us human.as far as what is wrong with this world, it is how our society has gotten to be such a "me" society. everything anymore is about "me"! what i can do to make "me" happy. what i can do to satisfy "me". what i can do to get me the immediate results i seek to full fill "me". if we would all just start thinking of others instead of "me" first then, this would be a better world and i suspect the rate of infidelity would go way down.

You are right, Mystery. This IS a board for healing of marriages. This is not a place to condone infidelity and allow endless months and years to go by without betrayers having consequences for their actions. Although everyone here has good intentions of restoring their marriages, they are really only detroying themselves in the process.... by letting their cheating spouses carry on without any threat of consequence. Yes, marriage is hard and every effort should be given to make it work... but it has to be desired by BOTH parties. And one party should not allow the sin to go on under the guise of "trying to save the marriage" If these betrayers wanted to save the marriage, they would have when the affair was discovered. It is not an "illness". It is a choice. A selfish choice. As far as me being "recovered". No, I am not fully recovered, but I am well into it. I am comfortable with myself and my new life. And I only wish that some of you would come out of your haze and see how much better things could be if you moved on, let the consequences come for your spouses, and live again. I know how it felt to wait, to wonder, to want. But, at a certain point, I needed to look at what was going on and re-examine what kind of person I married. That was when I realized that sometimes, love isn't everything. Sometimes, people are selfish and no amount of Plan A or Plan B will change that. My children would have suffered if I had "waited" any longer. And so would I. I wish you all the best. I wish you all some clarity.------------------ Rachel :)

Rachel, My H is dealing with the consequences of his affair. He has no home to call his own, his children don't care if they see him at this time, he has no transportation, and can't get a loan to get anything else to drive. Those are consequences.

Avenge not thyselves, for vengence is mine saith the Lord! Sometimes, people are selfish and no amount of Plan A or Plan B will change that. Very true, and this may very well be the case in your former marriage, but not in all cases. And especially not the case for all those on the recovery board.And I only wish that some of you would come out of your haze and see how much better things could be if you moved onWhy do you continue to insult our intelligence? I think that all the people on this board are intelligent and wise enough to make that decision for themselves without destroying their lives. I'm happy to hear that you are moving on and well into recovery. Can you just a least say something positive for a chance and stop telling everyone to move on? Geesh! ------------------ "If you can learn from the mistakes of others, you won't have to make them youself."lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Rachel,I was going to post to you earlier, as a matter of fact I did. I tried to delete it and that is not an option for us any longer. So instead I just replaced it with L'sI am now offended. How dare you! You are insulting our intelligence. Who are you to judge our intelligence.You have moved on. I am pleased for you. I question whether you are happy or not? You say you are content with your new life. Great. While your being content with your new life I will happily snuggle with my betraying husband. Whom I planned A with all of my might, coupled with the strength only God could have given me.There are plenty of success stories on this board. There are even some renewing of marriages here in the archives after divorce. There have been many betrayers who have had no intentions of ever returning to their marriage and trying to make it work. Yet by some miracle they end up back in those marriages and are happy. Everyone here is doing their best to make their marriages work. The are doing all they can and doing what is best for them. They are pulling from every possible place they can the strength they need to accomplish that goal. So, why do you feel it is necessary to pull them into your way of thinking? That is how you feel and right for you evidentially. They are doing what is right for them at this time in their lives.No one here is condoning the "sin" of infidelity. All are fighting against it. They are not destroying themselves in the process. They are growing and learning. If their marriages don't work out they will at least be able to look at themselves in the mirror with pride and respect and know that they did everything they could do.Infidelity is not an illness and it is a choice. It is a disease though. One that needs to be combated with what ever it takes to try and defeat it.You say <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If these betrayers wanted to save the marriage, they would have when the affair was discovered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My husband upon discovery did not want to save the marriage. He wanted to be with the OW. He also wanted to raise our daughter and do what was best for her. So, I was blessed and he stayed and ended the affair. It wasn't a sudden ending as he kept contact with her but he no longer was involved physically in an intimate way with her. It took a long time before he quit talking to her and finally changed jobs and shifts so he wouldn't have to see her everyday. She still is special to him. He loved her. Now he is falling back in love with me and he does love me. We are happier than we have been in years. This all happened because I plan A'd my bottom off. I worked as hard as I could to change the things that were wrong with me and to meet his emotional needs. He is now happy with me. He likes the person I have become and the renewal of the woman he originally fell in love with. He is not with the OW he is with me. Is it perfect yet? No but we are doing our level best to get there. We are approaching the one year anniversary of discovery. He is taking me on a wonderful vacation in 10 days. I am blessed and lucky. More than anything I am appreciative. There are others here who have betrayers who don't end the affair upon discovery. They do not want to work on their marriages. That is how they feel at the moment. That may not be how they will feel in the near or far future. I think you should read Lotsva reply to the following link. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000431.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000431.html</A> She is the epitome of what plan A is about. She gets it. She is getting really close to being in the recovery forum. She is an inspiration to all of us. I think Jamie Lee just said it best... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why do you continue to insult our intelligence? I think that all the people on this board are intelligent and wise enough to make that decision for themselves without destroying their lives. I'm happy to hear that you are moving on and well into recovery. Can you just a least say something positive for a chance and stop telling everyone to move on? Geesh! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There are no right or wrongs here in how people do what they need to do to attempt to and to save their marriages. We are all individuals and every situation though they may seem similar are unique. So how each and every one of us deal with our situations is not a right or wrong. They are not allowing a sin but trying to stop it and prevent it from ever happening again. Why do you think what is right for you is right for all or any of us?I do not think you get it. I do not think you will ever get it. I hope someday you do. No one seems to be able to get through to you. You don't have anything positive to say. I will echo Jamie Lee and say At least quit telling every one to move on. If they need to move on they will do it when it is right for them and they will know when that time is.I am going to try my best to stay away from your posts. They insight such anger in me. I cannot believe that you do not realize what this kind of posting will do to the new members to this board. I guess you just don't care? I assume you only want people to choose the same path you have chosen. I cannot imagine why but, that is how is appears to be.Good luck with your new life. May God bless you and your family. I hope someday you feel his wonderful peace and have happiness oouze out of every one of your pores. ------------------ God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't loose. What God has joined together let no man put asunder. Samantha

Rachel:I'm going to be very blunt here---not to enlighten you (I gave up on that a long time ago), but to illustrate for others who read this what went on (IMO).You never did Plan A. Ever. You filed for divorce very early. You couldn't stick to a consistant message, other than "punishment" for your husband, and the desire to see him crawling back to you. You NEVER did the work that the "MarriageBuilders" principles would have led you to. The bottom line is, from your own admission, your husband's affair is over now (well within the Harley "2-year" usual timeframe). And guess what---he doesn't want the marriage. He prefered divorce.You can whine about his lack of morals, committment, his poor behaviors, etc. And it may all be true. BUT, you had an opportunity to save your marriage (through the use of plan A), and you squandered it. In spite of all the advice I and others gave you---you did it your own way. And you're divorced now, and extremely bitter. If you want to complain about divorce, and whine about your husband---that's fine. Do it here, we will listen and you will get sympathy. But to come here and trash the MarriageBuilder principles that you never used, and to say that the path you went down was true "marriagebuilding"---leave it at the door. If you can't, I'd prefer to see you never post here. Your posts are distracting, damaging and they anger those who may be trying to work on their marriages. And they waste my time, because when this crap comes out from your posts, I feel the responsibility to put it in proper light.I truly hope that you REALLY recover from this is a healthy way, for your sake as well as for that of your children.

camarinick,I happen to agree with much of what you are saying, I think it's just the way you're saying it that is off-putting. Although because of the devastating position you're in now, I can't say I blame you for it.In my own position, I had to take "as much as I could take" before the last straw broke that camel's back. If I had given up one second earlier, in my own mind I would have pined away perhaps indefinitely. But I definitely could not have been condoning of my husband's affair, and wasn't. That doesn't mean I didn't try my hardest for the marriage or that I didn't give "Plan A" (which I didn't know about at that time, yet still implemented it) the sufficient amount of time. When my husband wanted to skirt between the OW and myself, I couldn't allow it. My mother and father had and still have a very strong marriage, and they are both very respecting of one another (they've been married 45 years) and I grew up seeing that their marriage was loving, yet neither one would be disrespectful. I had ideals of marriage, and I don't think those ideals were fantasy, I had seen many people with good and solid marriages, and when my husband told me of his affair, I was not going to take responsibility for his actions and then proceed to reward him for choosing to have an affair! This last sentence seems to really get to some people, because they don't quite understand that lying, cheating, disrespecting and emotional abuse does NOT constitute love. I didn't yell and scream when I found out and I did suggest counseling to my husband, but he didn't want any part of it. I finally realized that no matter how hard we would love to orchestrate another's actions and feelings, we cannot. We can love them back, but what if there are no signs of their return? Yes, there are those who reconcile, but there are so many issues to deal with such as trust, it would take a spouse who is 100% willing to work on it and show remorse to be able for the marriage to be repaired, IMO. I am all for marriage recovery, and my husband and I are trying to recover, because he has finally shown (after months of separation) that he wants to make our marriage work, yet I'm cautiously optimistic. I will take responsibility for my part in the disintigration of the marriage (my husband says that there are 3 things that contributed - too much time spent with kids, controlling (because I wanted to know where he was until 1:00 a.m), and smothering). Well, I have given him the space he wants and am becoming independent as well, but when does it come down that perhaps their personality and character are such that they will never be quite happy unless they are singles living as marrieds? I do see that some will say that the betrayers (not the ones wanting their marriages and working on them, I honestly believe some do make bad choices and this only happens once) are just going through fantasy land, but what if this is just someone's character? No one wants to believe this to be the case I think. Sorry, usually a lurker, but this kind of struck a chord.

In reponse to K especially, I actually DID do Plan A before I made the decision to file for divorce. And to correct you, my X is STILL living with OW. SO, no, the affair is not over. You have all made your choice. And actually I AM basking in my own peace and the new life I am building for myself. I grieve for some of you that you haven't been able to find that. I know that I did the right thing in getting on with my life and not allowing my X to continue his affair and have me also. Having his cake and eating it too, is never an option. I only hope that some of you wil discover that before it is too late.------------------ Rachel :)

I am sorry that things didn't work out for you. I know how hard things can be. My H now is actually my 3rd H.. The first two ran around and cheated (just like the current one did) and eventually left me and my children with nothing. I can tell you, though, that it does get better. If it wasn't meant to be, then you have learned what not to do when you are ready to try again. I know that you may think that you will never be ready to try again. And that may be true right now. But eventually, you will want to feel love again. My H and I have had some hard times too (He's had an OW too and a baby on the way that's not mine) But we plowed through it all and are doing better now then ever before. We are probably a one in a million couple but it's true. The only advice I can give is to take one day at a time and do the best you can with what you've been dealt. Things WILL get better.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by camarinick: H and I went to court yesterday and the judge granted our divorce. This just proves my point that when it really comes down to it, these betrayers don't have the emotionally maturity or common sense to look their spouse in the eye, admit what they have done wrong and try to change it. My H is ambivilant toward the OW (whom he is living with)and completely unhappy with himself. It obviously is not the "pie in the sky" mentality that is seems at first. So, those of you who are sitting around, begging, pleading, waiting for your wayward spouse to reject the OP and come back to you.....don't bother. Those kind of people are only going to drag you down anyway. Do yourself a favor...stop being the victim and stand up for your rights. You can't MAKE a person want to be married. It is only a desperate last attempt to hold on to something that obviously was flawed from the beginning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have skimmed some of the other posts and see that you are in a great deal of pain. I am finding in my search for the peace you refer to in a later post that it is only found in Jesus. If you are not a Christian, please don't be offended. If you are focus on Him and He will let you know what to do.If you know that God intended for you to marry your spouse then you know He will give you what is necessary to heal your marriage. We all must be cognizant of Satan's desire to tear apart families because that is how he gets you caught up in the blame game. He wants us to do that because it takes our focus off God. When that happens we end up all alone and wondering why.We also must remember that we are where we are in our lives because of the choices that we make regardless of how others react to those choices. We all have to accept responsibility for what has happened to ourselves.As for me, if my W wants to divorce me, it will be because she wanted to do what was solely best in her eyes as defined by the world which is under Satans influence. When you look at it from God's perspective then she would be able to see that it is not His plan that she do so. My life has mirrored the life of Hosea the prophet. God asked him to marry a harlot. Yes, I know that is a hard word but it is accurate. My W falls into that category because of what she has done and is probably continuing to do. I have chosen to do as God has directed me to do as He did with Hosea. The little bit of pain that I endure for doing as He wants me to do pales in comparison to the riches He has instore for me when I get to spend the rest of eternity with Him. As for the other crowd, the pain that is experienced in this part of our existence is nothing compared to eternal torment that will be endured by those going there.MONDO HUG RACHEL!!!!! I really feel your pain and go through those moments when I am in my car usually. Then He tells me that I should pray for them that they may get to know Him.Besides what you have done is okay Biblically. You are the betrayed. I haven't developed a hard enough heart to leave. I go through my hard moments usually when I am by myself and sometimes when the boys are being boys (out of frustration from her telling them to do things that she doesn't do.) ------------------ God Bless, Rob regilmor@swbell.net [This message has been edited by professorg (edited February 03, 2000).]

I don't know anymore. I could probably debate either side of this issue. I can only speak for myself though and won't presume to judge what others are doing. There is room for many approaches.As I approach 17 months of separation and appear nowhere near either a divorce filing or a reconciliation, I stress the need to set limits. We all may choose to put them in different places for a variety of reasons, but I think they're needed. Whether your limit is two months, two years, or longer, you need one or you life can slip by. I just saw an old boss divorce after an 8 year separation. I can see that happening to me if I don't keep the limit I've set.I am SURE that the dominant mode of thinking for people NOT in the situation of having a cheating spouse that won't stop is "divorce the bum". It's about justice, accountability, standing up for boundaries, self-respect, and consequences. It is also the way that I have successfully lived my life in the business world, where it works wonderfully.Unfortunately, relationships are not business and what counts is the long term, not deviations along the way. The business model is great for winning battles and getting short term performance, but it's not oriented towards long term relationships. In that mode of thinking, the behavior of the spouse prior to the infidelity is critical in how much effort should be expended. In my case, I had a pretty good spouse who was a great father for 15 years. For two years, I've seen a lost, selfish, amoral person who is completely unlike the one I knew before. I've accepted that his behavior is aberration, and have pretty much convinced myself to wait it out, with a limit however. I waver about this constantly, but with great support (from here and friends) I've been able to keep myself safe while waiting. I HAVE NOT put my life on hold. I do everything except date, and I am not unhappy with my life.Rachel, I don't fault what you've done and I'm not entirely convinced it's a worse model. Sometimes, these situations can't be turned around no matter what you do. The problem is, you don't know that it's unsalvagable until after you put in the effort. So for me, I know that when I throw in the towel (if it comes to that), there'll be no question that I did my best. Having that feeling of having done everything may not be as important to everyone. As I said before, I think a big part of my reason for feeling this way is because of what my husband was before. If he were a serial cheater, or a lousy father, or a selfish beast all along, I wouldn't have tried so hard.Now that it's done with and you have closure, I predict your life will get better. There is relief in closure and I don't think it should be discounted. But please try to show more compassion towards those of us that have taken another path. It hurts to read some of the judgmental comments. I know you don't mean to hurt with the words, that you only want us to "wake-up", but that's a disrespectful judgment in Harley's terms. None of us are really in a position to judge.

CamarinickMy H is doing the sitting around, the begging, the pleading. He has no contact with the OW except to see the OC that this affair produced. Now the OW is avoiding him because because I demanded that my H have a DNA test done. Now for some reason my H has not been able to get in touch with the OW to see the OC-boy.The bible said that when we get married, we be come one. And the marriage was ordained by God. I am sure that your marriage was not flawed for the beginning. My was not and not in the 15 years I was married. Your marriage was not flawed--the person you married was.I wish you blessing and hope that you develop understanding in this matter. Keep the Faith, trust and believe in GOD and He will direct your path ITS

Rachael,If I remember right (and sometimes I do get brain dead - so if I'm wrong - sorry) - your plan A was not longer than a couple of days at a time - before a selfish demand (not that it wasn't justified to demand that he choose, but it was against plan A totally) - and a good plan A requires much more than a couple of days before lovebusting.Actually, plan A means NO lovebusting, which meant - NO SELFISH DEMANDS. Plan A isn't about right or wrong, plan A is about doing everything you can to help your spouse WAKE UP in their bad brain period. IT IS ABOUT NOT MAKING WITHDRAWALS.Now, I am not saying you were wrong, at all. In fact, you were right, very right - dead right - er I mean divorced right.We are here to rebuild our marriages. PERIOD. We are not here to be right. Right can get us divorced. Which is better? To be right and divorced, or to be loving/forgiving and married.That is the real question, do we want to heal our marriages or not?You know, Rachael, not only did you discard plan A immediately, you refused to go to plan B as well. You didn't give an ounce of work into the Harley methods - and you don't have a right to tell anyone about how they don't work.BUT, you still have the opportunity to try them. Yes, you are divorced. But, IF by some weird reason, you decide you still love your husband, the father of your children, the man that broke your heart - and want to try now the Harley methods, you will get nothing but 100% support from all of us.It isn't easy to do the Harley methods. But, the FACT IS - that the success rate of restoring the marriage (we are not talking right or wrong, but we are talking about restoring marriages don't mix apples with oranges) - there is better than a 90% chance that your marriage could have been restored.I am not so sure you still have those odds, this late in the game - and with your given track record of so much lovebusting after discovery, but if you still want to give it a shot - I for one, will definitely support that.TNT