Hi All,

Look what I'm doing in the New Year....it really sucks that this all came to the surface this time of year, but that's that.

My situation-I have been married for 7 years, we have 2 kids both very young. My suspicions of my husband started over a year ago. I felt his uncaring, he threw himself into work and always had meetings or was on the phone, he was gone from the house alot, he even was gone from the hospital for a couple hours while I was in labor, etc etc. He's always liked to have his 'secrets' but it had progressively gotten worse. I started questioning him about what he'd been doing, he was always pretty brief. I had a newborn baby and toddler to take care of and simply no support, so outta complete exhaustion had to just except his excuses and cope. Then I had to leave unexpectedly to be with my family, he was pretty quick to agree for me to go. I believe it was while I was gone for a few weeks that his affair with his coworker was consumated. He had for awhile been elusive to get ahold of on his cell phone, so while away it only was worse. I just had to brush these suspicions aside as I really didn't know what to do. However that changed when I found a card from Planned Parenthood in some clothes, he gave me excuses which didn't make logical sense, but I tried to move on. I did act on suspicions in at least checking his phone and did find a suspicious phone number that was called all times of day, eliminating that it was just a 'business' associate. I never got the nerve to call it. With a 1 month old baby I guess I just wasn't strong enough to deal with it than. Than 6 months later, I get the mail and find a receipt from a doc visit that states he had testing done again. Brought the issue up again, more excuses. Speed forward to now; all the bottled up frustrations and emotions came out in a lengthy letter, which I emailed to him in early Dec. Boy did that open a can of worms that I didn't know was so huge....now I know as he has told me that the woman I suspected (a coworker) was recently divorced and alone...she got divorced because she cheated on her husband. He did have dinners with her while I was gone as he stated 'he doesn't like being alone'. He has also told me he has had women throw themselves at him a couple times, but didn't do anything because he's married. Of course this information was over many conversations over the past few weeks. Now where are we at, we've been to a Counselor a few times, first time together didn't go to good, but I feel as though I just am stuck on this issue. I keep asking him to answer my questions and have a dialogue about what happened with her, but he gets so angy and defensive and ends up crying. I know he feels that I should stop bringing this up and lets just work on our issues and move on, but I can't, and from what I read here and by what the counselor told me, getting the truth out is best. I am questioning my pushing him to tell me the truth, honestly, I really don't know if I can't take him telling me the truth and hearing it from his lips. I still love him dearly and really do want to make this work. He has been doing everything to make an effort to change drastically since my letter and things have been good, but it is a rollercoaster and he states he simply can't take the rollercoaster.

So what to do? Also what the heck is Plan A and Plan B? Can't find it on here.

Also, I read the infidelity parts on here 1-4, but would like to know why the Dr. thinks its truly best to know the truth...this is what I'm struggling with too.

Thanks to all for taking the time to read this....Hope 2009 is a better year for us all!

Quick answer in case yer waiting anxiously... I read your post and am writing something to you...

Looks like I just missed ya.... (your face was yellow when I started typing the previous post, but it was grey after I sent it...)

Any here you go:
What are Plan A and Plan B

That is a good place to start. You should also read about "The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A". A good way to *really* see how these plans look in action is to read someone's thread who has done them. I recommend lildoggie on the Recovery forum and Trying2Live on the GQ forum; there's lots others too.

I gotta go to sleep now; the board is often slow when it's nighttime in North America; plus it's New Year's. Hopefully someone will come on later and write more, and hopefully you'll be back tomorrow.

*hugs* Hang in there, it gets better if you let it.

Hi!
I'm sorry you needed to join us here but I hope you find it as helpful as I have.

Joeseph's letter does an excellent job of explaining why we need to know everything before we can truly begin healing and rebuilding.

Before reading it, I knew I needed to know but I couldn't decide how much I deserved to know. I was afraid that I was pushing him too hard, didn't want to be a nag. Shouldn't him stopping the A and being willing to work on us be enough? The letter explains perfectly why we can't shake that "need to know" feeling. After thinking on it a few days, I emailed a copy to my husband.

A big sticking point in starting my recovery was that I knew he had gone to meet her in person (they didn't have sex but they did have an extended make-out session) but he said he couldn't remember what day that happened. I couldn't fathom that. It had happened in the past month so I wasn't asking him to dredge up ancient history. When I emailed him, I wrote just a short note at the top. I said "The worst day of my life was the day you spent in another woman's arms and I'm not even allowed to know what day that was"

He read it and he took it to heart. Being honest with me has meant he had to be honest with himself which has been difficult for him. Not being honest with himself was a big factor in how the affair took ground in the first place. He really couldn't remember exactly what day that was but he was able to narrow it down to either a Wed or Thurs of a particular week and I"m pretty sure it was the Wed based on remembering his mood/actions that day. And now I know. Now I know what *I* was doing when he was doing that. Now I know that the gut feeling I had that day that something was terribly wrong with him was not just my imagination. I hadn't suspected an affair in the slightest but I knew he was behaving very oddly (which he always brushed off)

Finding out at the holidays blows. No two ways about it. I hate that Christmas has had this cloud over it but at the same time, it's better than finding out later he was consumed with her instead of his family during this time. I'm trying to think of it as now we can start the new year with a truly clean slate.

Anyway, go back to the home page, do your best to work your way through all the topics. The more you know, the stronger you will be.

Hi ae, sorry you are here. The reason you have to know the truth is because you won't recover without it. Radical honesty is the first step in recovery; without it you won't recover. If he doesn't tell in 5 years, you will still be wondering in 5 years. Or 30 years. Take your pick You will have no peace until you know. You won't be able to move on.

Nor should you. This is information about YOUR LIFE to which you have a right to know. Everything he does is your business, especially bringing a 3rd party into your marriage. For him to withhold it is cruel and unusual punishment.

You also need to know WHO she is and where she lives and what she does.

So, the first step has to be complete honesty. You have a right to know each and every detail. This is information about YOUR LIFE.

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair
here

Thanks to you all that responded...I need to say that I quickly reviewed plan a and plan b, I don't have much time today as we are all at home. I do want to say that I believe the affair with his coworker has ended, however they do still work together, after reading these forums and the plans, I'm seeing that he needs to completely sever this connection and may need to find a new job....I'll write more when have time.
Thanks

ahh, now this all makes sense. He is still in his affair. As long as they continue to see each other at work, he will be in a state of perpetual withdrawal because he will be triggered every time he sees her. This might be why he doesn't want to be honest about his affair, the secrecy enables him to continue his affair.

Is the OW married? If so, have you told her H about the affair?

Welcome! I can't tell you how much this site and the people her have helped me in the now 7 days since DDay#2 (yes, Affair #1 was 13 years ago...)

First, do not tell him about marriagebuilders.com just yet. Keep Plan A and Plan B to yourself. Plan A&B are your secret weapons vs. infidelity! That's if you choose to work on the marriage and not head directly to Plan D.

Next, a word of encouragement. Your situation looks much like A#1 for me. I struggled with that gut feeling that something was wrong, the signs of an affair, WW telling me she loved me, but was not in love with me, etc., etc., etc.

I buckled down and really tried to work on myself and our marriage for almost a year! AFfair started in July and by the next April we were in couples counseling...long affair, 10+ months, much deception, lots of anquish for me...but also a lot of denial from me.

WW finally decided she wanted to work on marriage in April and came clean. Floored me! I mean completely blind-sided me. Deep down I think I knew, and had even asked her several times during that 10 month span, only to have her say no...and I believed her.

Counselor was great. Helped me understand the things I did to break down the marriage, yet helped WW know that it was her decision to engage in A. We worked on things and actually grew as a couple.

Word of advice here from experience. Wait before telling mutual friends and family about any infidelity or affair. I regret telling my family about affair #1...hard for them to forgive my WW. Have not told anyone about A#2...Plan A here, counseling set up, we are working on it.

I'm rambling a bit...must be some liquid courage left in my body after last night

Be patient. Read, read, read and read some more. Ask questions on this board, the people here are GREAT!

Know that you have a support mechanism here that will help you get through this. More later when my brain finally wakes up...

Thanks for responding to all again. It's interesting to me the thought that melody (I think that's the screen name) said my Husband is still in withdrawel because he has to see her at work? Hadn't really thought about that. My story in my head of what happened is that he (as he has stated) was being just a friend to a poor soul going through so much (yes he has to be the hero and looked up to). This innocent friendship than turned into a romance when the situation was presented and they were able to be alone. I believe they both used another coworker (a man that is a single divorcee) as an escuse to go out together. My husband used to talk about this women and mentioned her to me on numerous occasions and how this single guy friend at work was hitting on her and how she didn't really like his advances...I remember telling him, be careful with that, she may not be interested in him, but interested in you. You all have to understand (as I'm sure I'm in a crowd that does) the even deeper hurt this brings to me as he has told me that he took her to a doctor appointment for a 'simple procedure' as she had no one to take her. Meanwhile, me VERY pregnant and having many doctors appointments needed him numerous times and he blew me off so I had to drag my 2 1/2 yr old to these....let's just say most didn't go well. I was pretty neglected and so it's just such a double whammy at this point.

I believe that after I returned the affair probably kept up, his excuse of 'when do I have the time', now in reflecting back is ridiculous....I'm sure she has a place within 5 minutes from work and they could've even had some nooners during business hours for all I know. Also, he was always away late with his 'business meetings for all his entrepreneurial ideas'. I believe it ended shortly there after as I found the card for planned parenthood a couple months later and confronted him. He was really odd coming home and saying that he wanted to get rid of his car and really hated it. I just remember thinking to myself, why all of a sudden he hates his 'dream car' and why is he bringing this up a lot. I think that this girl might have turned a bit psycho on him (in his eyes), making more demands of him and the relationship and wanting more, which is when he cut it. I believe that maybe she was threatening to follow him home and confront me, or maybe he was simply just worried about that. BTW, he has spent a very considerable amount of money over the past year...since my head is spinning, I am now even thinking it's possible that he had to pay for an abortion 'the simple procedure' he took her to, or maybe paid her off. Then it's crossed my mind if this is possible is she blackmailing him.

I believe I've come to the conclusion to hire a PI...but not really sure if I want to go there....but I think I may at least follow the $ to protect myself and my girls.

Pretty messy but just had a few moments to explain more...thanks for support

Finding out that your H cheated while you were pregnant is a terrible blow. Ike and I separated when I was 6.5 months pregnant and it was hell. It's a time when you expect your H to be there for you and finding out that he wasn't...well there are no words.

He definitely needs to find a new job. MelodyLane is right. He is seeing her everyday so, therefore, he cannot get through the withdrawal process. He needs to get away from her and never speak, email, text, ANYTHING with her ever again. That's going to be a huge step toward recovering your M.


It's funny that you say that because that is exactly what happened with my WH and OW. Blah, if only we knew then what we know now, right?

Hi allemotions,

I think discovering an affair is like ripping a bandaid off. Do it fast and it hurts bad for a while, do it solw and it still hurts but for a lot longer. then it gets infected and gangrenouos, and...ok, enough with that analogy.

I think you know in your heart what happened more or less.

Bottomline is, if he comes totally clean and pledges honesty in the future, you can start to believe that this was an abberation and you can trust your spouse again (I am surprisingly getting there at 4 months).

However, you can read here until you are blue in the face, while he still works with the OW you are wasting your time and causing yourself heartache trying to make things better.

She has to be OUT of your lives. I am probably going to force a move out of state on my WW after the school year ends to make sure we completely recover. And I don't kill the guy, who lives in the neighboring town.

Like Mike said, you are basically wasting your time as long as he continues to see the OW every day at work. That is like sending a "recovering" alcoholic into the bar every day but changing the name of his drinks to "business drinks." Cute, but doens't work. Drunk is drunk, no matter what you call the drinks.

Your H will never withdraw as long as they continue to see each other. Every tme he sees her he will be triggered and so will you.

I would ask him to leave the job.

Hi, AE

I'm with Mel. The affair hasn't stopped.

The most surprising thing about wayward spouses (at least for me) is their capacity to lie. They do it as easily as they breathe. Right to your face, look you in the eye.

Good luck.

Hi All,

thought I'd write a bit of an update and ask for advice. I have engaged a psychologist and started some therapy. Only have gone together to therapy a few times. Last 2 times my H called last minute that he wasn't going to go, didn't feel like dealing with it. Ultimately he showed up. He had agreed at previous session to start therapy on his own, didn't initiate it. So our last session again accomplished nothing but trying to talk to him again why we have to be there.

H won't talk about his A. The OW name gets brought up and at this point he has stopped denying an affair, but will not have any dialogue or admit to it at all. I had tried to explain to him why he must have this diaglogue with me and why I can't move past this issue. So any advice about communicating this will be appreciated.

Over the past few weeks he has made big changes and our relationship has been on the right track. I know though that if he doesn't get help for his issues that ultimately I can't live with the person he has become and he will continue to spiral out of control.

I have done some detective work but haven't been able to tie the 2 of them together as it happened over a year ago and is over. He does work with her so I realize from what you have said that it's not really over til he has no contact with her, so I'm working on that and hoping he can move jobs soon.

So should I still be making further attempts at 'snooping'? Any ideas? I saw people used a keyloger for computer snooping(any ideas of where to get this and is this ever detectable on the pc its loaded on-in other words would I get caught doing this?)

Here's the things I've contemplated and not acted on;
-he has another coworker that would have been witness to alot of their interations. This person I believe was the excuse for them to get together. This person has over the past few months distanced themselves from my H. I have thought about contacting him to see if he'll meet with me and talk to see if he knows anything.
-I have the OW's information, phone, home address, facebook page. Haven't done anything with that yet, but the possibility is there.

Again, I guess I'm trying to be patient and give the therapy sessions time, but should I have a timeline for this....it has just been dragging on and him avoiding confrontation and refusing to have a dialogue with me is just killing me. I've recently felt pretty hopeless for a future with him based on his refusal to look at himself in therapy and address the past. I have thought, he really hasn't had much 'hard' consequences yet, besides having to do what he always should've been in our marriage and having to go through major emotional turmoil with me, but I have never left him...so when do you know it's time to just say 'that's enough' and leave? When was this time for other betrayed spouses?

On the other hand, we have had moments where I feel I am getting through to him, he said 'I know you are the only one that cares enough about me to make me go through this'...yet than he totally regresses.

I am getting stronger each day and learning to stand up for myself again.

Unfortunately, counseling is not too beneficial when one partner is still in an affair. It is entirely up to you, of course, but if my H had an affair and wouldn't come clean, then I wouldn't be willing to stay married to him. Why, you ask? Because the marriage would never recover anyway as long as the he continues to lie to you every day. He and the OW have secrets to which are not privy. They see each other every day. You won't recover that way.

I would not be willing to stay in a marriage that I knew was doomed to failure, in which my resentment would grow with each passing day over his continual lies. See, every day he doesn't tell you is a lie by omission. He compounds the crime by not telling you. The only thing that will "GROW" under those conditions is hate and resentment and bitterness. Not something I would sign on for.

The longer you go like this, the greater the resentment and the greater likelihood you end up divorced. Because once you grow to hate him, it is hard to turn back. If I were in your shoes, I might separate and tell him that I will consider reconciliation if he is willing to be honest and take the necessary steps to recover the marriage. In other words, give him an opportunity to prove himself and tell him what it will take for you to consider reconciliation.

But until then, it is more harmful to be together than apart. Then, if he doesn't choose to recover the marriage within 2 years, you can end the marriage. You will be in a better position to do that because you will have detached from him and will have a clear head and good judgment after being away from him.

That is how I would handle it.

A couple of ideas come to mind. Polygraph and exposure.

You could tell him that if he wants you to remain in the marriage then it has to be a marriage of complete openness and honesty. That you can try to forgive transgressions but you cannot live with lies between you. Notice I didn't say you could or would forgive the transgressions but that you would try. That is truly all you can promise at this point.

Tell him you want him to take a polygraph or you will
file for D
ask him to move out
(insert your own consequence).

This is risky because you must be 100% committed to following through on the consequence if he does not take the polygraph. So think about this long and hard. Personally I'd file for D because there's no point in trying to recover a marriage filled with lies. You may ask him to move out instead, as you have two little ones and my not be ready for D yet.


The second idea is I would expose the affair, even though it is in the past. I'd tell OW's boyfriend, husband, parents. I'd tell WH's parents and siblings. I'd tell your parents. I'd tell them "WH was involved in an affair with OW when I was pregnant with X. I'm committed to doing whatever it takes to repair my M but they still see one another and it's difficult. I'd appreciate your support of WH, myself, and our marriage right now. If you have any advice I'd appreciate it."

I'd tell the head of human resources *and* the CEO where they work - I'd do this in writing and make sure each of them knows the other was cc:d; that makes it harder for them to just toss the letter in the trash and ignore it. This exposure needs to take a more business-like approach. One of the MB members came up with a template that is posted here from time to time:


Someone posted above that they wished they hadn't exposed because it put a strain between their family and their wayward spouse. Boo Hoo for that! The wayward asked for that when they stepped outside the marriage. The wayward spouse MUST feel consequences of their actions, or there will be no reason to avoid affairs in the future. Furthermore, if all eyes are on the wayward then it encourages them to keep their pants zipped.

Agree 100% with Mel. I would either separate or file for D. I know being the mother of two young children makes those alternatives seem scary but you can't afford to be paralyzed by fear or the unknown. If the questions you have go unanswered and WH is unwilling to help you heal, future heartache awaits you and you will never feel safe in your marriage.

If you do tell him to leave, I'd expose to family and friends. Do not protect him from the consequences of his actions. Ten yrs ago when my H was slobbering over single women, I did not expose his disgusting behavior out of embarrassment. I sooooo regret that till this day. Maybe it was the smack upside the head he needed and he would have learned a lesson a long time ago before he had a full blown PA that has brought so much devastation to our family.

At the very least, exposure would let him know that you aren't going to hide his dirty little secrets for him, now or ever. After my D-day, I told my H to get out and was looking to D. I was not willing to sugar coat the reason for H being out of the house. If you don't want people to think your a scumbag, don't act like one...it's that simple.

I'd contact the co-worker you mentioned. If WH finds out about it...good. Tell him you have to rely on total strangers for the truth since he is unwilling to provide it himself. Whatever you decide to do, just make sure you are willing to follow through. If you don't follow through, he will see your words as empty threats and believe he can throw you crumbs and you will take them.

Please be sure to have yourself tested for STDs. So sorry you are here ae.

Hi,
Thanks for your responses and advice. I know that it is coming to at a minimum a separation and some pretty big consequences soon. I am taking it a day at a time right now. I do realize and know now that without full admitting and honesty we don't have anything and he will never change because he will not get to the root of the issues.

H has developed into his alter ego to ultimately protect his very low self esteem that needs to be constantly stroked by others (I think especially women). He needs admiration and is currently lying in all areas in his life to the extent of operating telling others he's something he's not as well (almost a con man). He is so far from the man I married it is shocking and really has left reality far behind.

I know now that he sees me 'bringing him back to reality' and questioning things, as just negative and therefore a big love buster, however I'm not sure how to deal completely with that when he operating in la la land literally. I have backed off alot and trying not to bring him to reality too much and hoping he will get some consistent therapy and let the therapist be the person that does that...

We'll see...but thanks again for any advice...I still am deciding if snooping and uncovering some more substantial evidence will force a confrontation and admittal...we'll see.

I was wondering if anyone can give me some specific advice on any other snooping they've done? I'm thinking of maybe installing a keyloger on the PC, but worried of it being found?? Anyone that could recommend something that works?

I'm just in such a state of confusion right now, but I'm definitely getting stronger.

Thanks to all who've responded!

Okay, so I've been thinking of the advice on here...read some more threads too. The consistent advice from Mel and Raven was to go to plan D; seperate or divorce. From what I have read now on the 'new to site' the discovery process takes time. For us this really started in December. I now realize that I must be patient, but not patient forever, there has to be consequences eventually and recognition that he may never admit, may never change, and that I can no longer live with the person WH has become.

So, I read 'Joseph's Letter' that's referenced alot on here. It really inspired me to try and explain how I'm feeling. For us, alot is hanging on next week as WH has agreed to go to therapist alone and than together. So at a minimum I will see how next week goes and if WH keeps to appt. Here's what I have written so far that I think I must say. It is so hard to express what drives you to HAVE to know the details of the A. It really torments you...I still don't think I've totally grasped all, so will look to you all for anything you think will help to express this even better.

________________________________________

What I want to say….
Do you know how this has tormented me? I now have to face the reality that you had an affair. Even though you haven’t admitted it, I know it happened. I must face that our innocent love is gone. That you have played Russian roulette with my health, with your health, with our future, with our life as we know it. There are so many things that I don’t know; I don’t know how and when this ended? I don’t know was this a one time fling, few time fling, or romantic affair that lasted? I don’t know (if this truly has ended) how do you cope with seeing each other at work now? Do you still talk? I don’t know what emotional needs you feel she filled? I don’t know why you continually search out others to fulfill your emotional needs (admiration, adoration, love, attention, sexual…)? I don’t know if this was the first time an affair has occurred or has there been others (which I now have many other suspicions)? I don’t know how you can say you love me, yet still not be open and honest with me? I don’t know if this pattern of lying that pervades your persona can be acknowledged and reversed?

How can I move on and start to heal, when I have no admittance of an affair, no assurance it’s ended, no promises that it will never happen again, no commitments to delve into ‘the demons’ (that supposedly drove this behavior) in order to gain understanding and lasting change? How can I begin to trust you have sincere intentions toward me, us, our marriage if you’re still not transparent, open, honest of the past issues that have been discovered (OW name and other issues)?

I realize that you have made a good start at changing in our relationship; being engaged, taking care of the kids, being there for us, etc. This is what we need to continue to work on. All the things that added up to take out the romance and connection we use to have. I recognize the things that you are currently doing, the things that I am currently doing to build US back. To keep trying to connect, and I see very positive change and it is reflected in our now almost argument free home, our kids more happy attitudes, and our ability to genuinely have stress free happy fun filled days. These things I am not trying to discount in anyway. My being ‘stuck’ on the bigger issues at hand and the past, does not mean that I don’t recognize what we are starting to build today and the efforts you, me, we are making today. I am stuck because I don’t know anything that will help me understand what drove you to do this, therefore I have nothing to hold on to and say, ‘okay that’s what is wrong’ that’s what he will work to fix, that’s what we will work to fix’.

Unfortunately the avoiding this confrontation, dialogue, and admission has had the opposite affect than I think you want. I only have small pieces of the puzzle. Because of this my mind must try and fill in the holes. I find myself trying to think back on those days and nights. I find myself thinking back through our entire relationship. It is natural for one’s mind to search for answers to a traumatic thing. My mind is like a movie rerunning rendevous of you and her, retracing events, and creating it’s own story of all the deceit. This story that my mind is creating could be even worse than what actually has happened, but only you know that, only you can open up and give me some answers. I am searching for the answers to understand the ‘why’ ‘how’ ‘when’ and ‘what now’. If you don’t open up and help me to heal from this than I won’t be able to answer these questions and won’t be able to feel secure that you are currently being transparent. If you aren’t being transparent about things in the past that you have done that are huge and potentially could shatter our marriage, our health, our life, how can I even start to believe that you’re being transparent now about the every day things?

You must realize that trust and the truth go hand and hand. This is why we keep talking about transparency. If you don’t open up to me about the past events, than I can’t ever begin to trust you again.

____________________________

Allemotions:

keyloggers are GREAT! I've got SpectraSoft's Spectra Pro installed on two home computers. Got me access to wifes e-mail and facebook accounts. I've been watching for two weeks now and have seen NO contact with the OM.

My WW is slowly starting to open up and actually gave me her e-mail password this past week while on vacation. And she showed me her blackberry password a few weeks back. Progress...slow but steady.

As far as being detected, well, I'm pretty computer savy and have latest anti-virus and anti-spy wear installed on all my computers. Nothing has detected the keylogger yet. It's virtually invisible, that is unless you know the hot-key to open the program, and the password to access information.

Get a keylogger!

My next step is to get access to phone records. I want to see who is texting and calling her. That was the primary interaction between my WW and the OM before they hooked up and consumated the affair (PA).

I'm taking it slow and steady. My WW is remorseful, admitted affair (how could she not...I stumbled in to her e-mail and read LOTS of incriminating information), and feels horrible for puttin me through this again (this is affair #2).

We are growing closer and working on things. But trust is still not there.

Keylog, get phone records, and even think about installing a voice recorder in his vehicle. I need to research that

Hang in there. With the help of these great people on MB.com you will grow, become stronger and stand up for what you demand in a marriage! The support here is outstanding!

I have a keylogger for D18, and it is completely invisible. It even sends me an email. I don't use it often, but it has been invaluable for me 'knowing' what's going on in her life. You would benefit in the same way.

thanks DN and Cat, I guess I just needed reassurance that this would basically be invisible, cause the last thing i need right now is more confrontation.

SpectraSoft makes Spector Pro. It's completely invisible and recommended by several here.

I'm not an IT guy, but I'm pretty computer savy. Build my own computers and am anal about virus protection. And Spector Pro is on both my home computers logging 24/7. WW has no clue at all.

My next step is hacking her Blackberry! Think I have found the prefect software. Sure, I'd like her to agree to give me access to phone records, but if she doesn't think I'm looking

Hang in there...and snoop!

AE, it is a mistake to back off and depend on counseling while your H gets worse and worse every day. Counseling is useless under normal conditions - it is very useless with an unwilling person who is lying to the counselor. Rome is burning and he is wasting his time lying to counselors.

He might be willing to go to counseling get you off his back for a while, but it will not help the situation. This is not going to be solved by your H spilling his feelings to a counseler but by taking some action here to awake your H from his fantasy STATE.

He is in an fantasy and has remained that way because he has never had any consequences for his affair. He still goes to work every day and sees her, WHICH KEEPS HIM IN THE FOG. And if that affair somehow ends, then he will likely go onto the next because HE NEVER RECOVERED FROM THE LAST AFFAIR. This is typically what happens. He has NEVER emerged from the fog and will only get worse until something changes. You can be the lighthouse, but you have to do something effective for a change.

The reason you don't recognize your husband is because he has been wayward minded for so long, without interruption. He is the drunk who goes in the bar every day and has "business drinks." He will never sober up. And the longer this goes on, the more entrencheed his foggy wayward thinking. The longer it will take for him to recover.

AE, everything you have done thus far has been wrong. Your instincts have led you wrong every step of the way. You have helped him remain in this state by avoiding confrontation, which helps him avoid reality. You have helped him hide his affair by not exposing, you tolerate him working with the OW, and are now wasting your time paying money to a counselor to listen to your unwilling H lie. And look where you are. You are no better off today than you were 2 years ago.

Do you want to do something that will actually HELP you save your marriage? See, your best thinking has got you nowhere. Would you like to try something different? Will you let us help you?

Hi Melody,

My husband has admitted to the affair a few days ago. We are now having a dialogue about this. I see this as a big step forward. He is so remorseful and crushed by this as well. I have also read to him his consequences. Some of them pretty serious. He is to aggressively look for another job. He is not to go out with single guy friends. He is not to have any 1 on 1 time with other women. He is to transfer all our money into my name and account which he will have no access to. He is to provide me with the phone records for a year of the time that this went on so I can see that communication ceased when he is stating it did. He is agreeing and willing to do it all. He doesn't understand why he did this and says he is willing to delve into it.

So with that said, what do you think...step forward, no?

Hi, AE... So sorry you are here.

Is the OW married or have a BF?

Who have you exposed to?

Have you read up on Plan A? Read the Carrot and the Stick?

I see that you have set some boundaries on your H such as going out with friends, etc. However, as I understand it, you should be focused on working a very short Plan A to give your H a chance to do the right thing and completely sever all ties with OW (ie leaving his workplace), preparing yourself for the possibility of moving to Plan B.

It is great that your H is remorseful and has admitted to the affair; however, unfortunately, while he is working with OW, you are dealing with fogged out wayward, who is capable of being caring and remorseful one day, while acting like a complete alien the next.

Hang in there and keep posting...

Thanks for response and I will re read the Plan A and Plan B /carrot and a stick as you recommended. I have to admit I wasn't in a good mental state to really take it all in, also I'm trying to write and read in the little time I have alone.

Thanks again.

So I responded to anothers thread on here, but I will say it on here as well. My husband states that OW does work in the same building, but is no where around him. That he never sees her and avoids that area. I realize how ridiculous this sounds and don't believe it either. My husband realizes that is is not fair to me for him to be working with OW. He is more than willing to move jobs. We have started to look and he's applied to anything we've found. Reality is that the job market, economy stinks right now. He's the breadwinner, I'm a SAHM, so we'll keep looking but this just might take time. It's dawned on me tonight, that why the heck should it be just us looking to move? Why not ask OW to look for other work and get outta there? She doesn't have any family here, we do. She doesn't have kids to uproot, we do. I figure it worth trying. I realize you can't control others, but what are your thoughts? Has anyone heard of this happening where OW leaves?

Yep, the economy is crap, but as Melody said, until your hubby breaks contact with the OM you can be assured that he's going to waiver and be foggy.

And if you are not snooping, GET ON THAT!

If he's still in contact with the OW you aren't going to get complete honesty about their contact. Keylog his computer, look at his phone records, GPS his car...

allemotion, he still works with the OW. The rest of stuff will be helpful if you ever get to a place where you CAN recover. But until this contact ends, this train ain't going anywhere.

Is the OW married? And before you answer, have you INDEPENDENTLY verified her marital status?

And can I ask why he is going out AT ALL without you? YOU should be his PRIMARY leisure activity. Part of affair proofing is building life TOGETHER.

Thanks DN, I realize now that he needs to move jobs, he's completely okay with that. He has applied to 4 other opportunities, so we'll see.

I am snooping and my WH has agreed to give me past and current phone records. Still thinking of other ideas to snoop, got the Specter Pro software, maybe a recorder in the car...looking for the opportunity for that....we'll see.

Hi All to have followed my story,

So Melody I wanted to tell you and everyone else who told me it isn't really over til NC and that means moving jobs....I get it now.

At our last joint session, my husband told me that he had never really had closure to this affair with OW. She had to travel extensively for her job all last year, so she wasn't even around much to attempt to engage him. However once in awhile she would try to email him and ask him to lunch or something, he attests that he has always said 'no' and kept his distance. So with the counselor he agrees he needs to make it very clear to her that there is to be NC and that his wife knows etc etc. So the counselor suggested he call her and have me on the other line, so that there is complete transperancy that this 'closure' dialogue happens. We have discussed what needs to be said, so this will be happening soon. I realize this is just the first step and he really needs to get the heck outta there...so he's agreed to get aggressive on job search.

I get it now, man does he need to get the hell outta there....I will be pushing for job change in the next few months....or else!!!!

He told me that a few weeks ago she instant messaged him on a Friday, 'what are you doing tonight?'. To which he replied, 'I'm going out on a date night with my wife.'. Than a week ago, again she IM'ed him 'wanna have lunch?' To which he simply answered 'no'. So she is still engaging him at work...or trying to. He thinks and has told me, 'you have to understand, she has her own group of friends and boyfriend now and everything...she really isn't chasing me or anything....' Yea whatever! Man do I want her to disappear! Oh did I post on here yet that I've found out that she's a serial OW...yes she's had affairs with other married men. My husband has stated that he never led OW to believe he was unhappy in his marriage or anything like that, I do believe this at this point....I know when he is lying, and putting all the pieces together, I really do think OW doesn't care either way.

It's just insane to find yourself in this spot.

We will be having this 'closure' call soon. Maybe I'll even push for it to happen tonight. We'll see. I know it's just the beginning to NC and he needs to get away from there. But at least she will be made aware and communicated to that she meant nothing to him and that she is to never contact him again. At least it will be out in the open! To Be continued......

Hi All,

Exposed WH to his mom tonight. I had attempted this a couple months ago, but she just defended him. Now she listened and was so saddened. It was hard for me to expose him in this way, but I know now it is necessary. I was hoping that he would tell them on his own, but that never happened.

It's out, I will no longer hide from others the truth of what he has done and who he truly is.

He needs to recognize and truly start working to change.....I know this exposure will only help to keep him grounded and on the right path.

Just curious why the recommendation that the NC dialogue be in the form of the letter? The pschye. we are seeing has suggested a phone call dialogue be had and that I be on the phone call listening, so that there is transperancy in this conversation. I am up for this and am planning on it this week. Also, maybe a letter too.

I haven't tried to expose the OW to her family and friends. I believe it possible. I guess my reasoning is I don't want to engage her at all and give her any excuse to engage us as we try and rebuild this marriage...does that make sense? Believe me I want her family to know that she's a serial OW. That she breaks up families, but I also don't want her to have any reason to engage my husband or me....what do you all think? I am a bit confused, isn't exposure part of Plan B, not Plan A....just wanting to understand. Also, thinking of calling the counselor's on here and getting a phone consultation with them.

Just a bit lost today....I sent my WH a lengthy email last night and haven't heard anything back yet from him.

Hi All,

I've renamed my thread to more appropriately state where we are at. Yesterday my husband and I called the OW to get closure and communicate there is to be NO CONTACT. Here's what he said (this is in his words as he wrote it out and showed it to me before making the call). BTW, call was made as it gives even more transparency to me that this has occurred.

'I am calling with the purpose of acknowledging and taking responsibility for the affair I had with you over a year ago. My wife is listening on the other line. I am currently working on rebuilding my marriage and this call is one of the steps to do so. The affair with you was left open and this call is to clearly have closure.
I want to make clear that at no point I had told you I had intentions to leave my wife or told you that I had any feelings for you. My decision to get involved with you has brought extreme pain in my life. I am currently getting help to understand why I cheated. I take full responsibility for my actions, but you need to know, I encourage you to seek help in understanding why you tend to get involved with married men as this results in the destruction of families.
In order to have any chance of rebuilding my marriage, I need to make sure you understand, I can not have any further contact with you. Do not contact me. Also, know I will be seeking employment elsewhere in order to eliminate further contact with you.
Bye!'

I must say it was so hard to control myself to not scream at her! She didn't really have the opportunity to say much, but I could tell that her 'ahum's' were getting pretty short and she was getting aggrevated. I'm glad it's over and it's out there and now I guess we'll see what happens, if she approaches him at work or anything.

Also, over the weekend he had to have a discussion with my MIL about what he had done.

On another note...I have no idea how to forgive after something like this...I guess time will tell. I'm just so pissed that I have to now live with the worry of the 'latent' STD's. You see we also found out that the OW (does the W stand for Whore too?) has never gotten tested....go figure she's irresponsible with herself too.

oh hilarious...it censored my 'bad' word...you can all guess what I put there.....