Has anyone noticed that there seems to be a HUGE difference in the success ratio here on MB for those that were cake eaters BUT never wanted to end their marriage, those that wanted BOTH the affair AND to keep their spouse v.s the Walk Away Spouse that was willing to dump the marriage and trade in their spouse for the affairee?

It would seem much harder to take back the adulterer that was not only willing to cheat on you BUT REPLACE YOU with someone else...

Thoughts?

Jim

I think its harder to get a walk away spouse to come back, but I don't think its any harder to take them back.

IMHO, the "willing to replace" is fantasy, or delusional to justify the A.

Not always, but to me, the cake eater believes the "rules" don't apply to them, where the walk away spouse believes the "rules" apply to them, but they have special circumstances. Being "willing to replace you" is a special circumstance that prooves their case, but no more real than the history rewrites.

My immediate thought is that this distinction - between "cake eaters" and "walk-away wives" may be the real root between the disagreements the board has seen of late over Plan A.

Those who have argued against Plan A talk about giving the wayward wife an ultimatum - end the affair right now or else we are through. And, yes, that might work with what you describe as a "cake eater", but it would ensure the end of the marriage if delivered to a "walk-away wife".

I've personally seen more of the "walk-away wife" here at MB, but that could just be based on the situations I've chosen to follow, and the fact that my own wife was ready to walk away, before I changed (although she was not in an A).

What would be harder to take back? In my case, I haven't a clue. I think, for me, it would hurt a lot more if it were a "walk-away" situation... but at the same time I think it would be far easier to understand and forgive. I can comprehend falling in love with someone, but a more casual affair on the side is something I don't really understand. Plus, it would indicate that the WW really put a low value on the marriage, to risk it all for a fling, and would indicate lack of feelings or perhaps lack of capacity to love - since the WW would not be in love with the OM, and not in love with the BH either. So, while it might hurt less, it might also indicate that the WW is a bad risk for the future...

Agree with above - altho I would like to add that in most instances we see on this board, the situation is months down the road and the WW is already one foot out the door. I think Plan A works best if the crisis is caught earlier and BH quickly adjusts to the crisis and holds emotions in check.

Far too often - by the time an BH is on the board - he has committed every mistake in the book such enabling the affair or committing LB in every form.

In my case I (or my sons) may have prevented the PA and thus the OM dropped her for greener pastures. Will never know the whole story but more pieces are coming together. Had I waited another few months, the situation would have been a lot different. I did pick up on EN not being met early enough to prevent further damage. I can be thick in the head but in this case I picked up on MB in time.

From what i have seen here....

A WW is generally the walk-away kind. And they are more difficult to deal with. My experience and from what i have seen so far.

WHs generally are the cake eaters and they are quick to come right back into the marriage once they are caught.

I agree that the walk-away kind may have some "ethics" or "rules" (hilarious and outrageous as it may sound but some of you probably know exactly what i am talking about) that may make it difficult to win them back (again depends on the situation). Walk-away kind, in few cases, actually see what BS dont see, ahead of time but failed to communicate and/or think the marriage is over before they have the affair. I dont think they use that to justify their affair but definitely to justify their walking away. Again i am talking from my own experience and from what i have read so far.

Like someone said the walk away kind hurt as much, if not more as the betrayed once they realize the damage they have done to the marriage. (Remorse is critical). And i believe that is a good thing for them to grow as a person and in some cases take that step to recommitt to the marriage.

Walk away scenario i believe takes you to the brink of divorce and does end that way for quite a few compared to cake eaters.

I've often pondered this question. My FWW was a cake eater. DDay was 2/23/08, the day after the PA began (she finally admitted it after she couldn't explain her whereabouts). By Easter, (3/23/08) we were talking divorce, and I moved out, out of state, for a short while (I know, bad move, but this was before I discovered MB). A week later, she came to spend the weekend with me. Both I and OM (as I later learned) thought that she was coming to definitavely end it with me. But she didn't, and when OM learned she didn't, he cooled it with her. So, by April 10, I thought the A was over, and thereafter we were in R. About then is when I discovered MB, and began putting the principles of the Love Bank into practice. But, unknown to me, she was recontacting and wooing OM back. I still haven't gotten a straight story as to whether OM was satisfied thereafter with only being an F buddy, or did she mislead him into thinking our M was still on the rocks.

But, anyway, through the rest of April and May, I thought we were doing fine in recovery. My FWW, however, is very capable in compartmentalization, and was very loving to both me and to OM (again, as I later learned). In fact, once while I was away on a business trip, I called while they were in the middle of IT, but she stopped and answered the phone, going into the living room. OM overheard her conversation with me. I was totally clueless that there was anything unusual with her. FWW later told me that, after our call, OM told her that he could see that she could love two men at the same time.

In June, I became suspicious something was up, and was able to access her cellphone records online, where I discovered she was still in contact. At first she said they were just friends, but then, when I showed her specific calls, like when he called her from his trailer for 2 minutes, then receives a 2-min call from a pay phone just down the road from our house a half hour later, she admitted to still seeing him. One or two more false NC's after this, and she finally ended it for sure in late July.

So, getting back to your question. Our marriage survived because I didn't know about it continuing while she was still in the heat of infatuation. She acted totally normal with me. BUT, when I had ddays 2 and 3, those hurt even more than dday 1, because not only was she still cheating, but now was lying and deceiving me. With these subsequent ddays, I was ready to toss her to the curb. But, her infatuation by this point was burning itself out, and she was able to stick with NC.

I think if she had been a walk-away spouse, our marriage would not have survived. However, if it had, I think the recovery would have been easier, because I would at least feel that she was honest with me about her feelings. The hardest part of our recovery now has been dealing with how skillfully she was able to lie and deceive me while it was still going on.

My XH was the walk away. Just up and left one day (the day after returning from a vacation with his family) I had no idea! Nothing in our marriage had changed. There was no warning.

He kept telling me that he would be coming back, he just needed space, etc. That was until I found out about the OW. It took about a month and a bit of real reflection on my part.

I decided I could do better. We had no children, and no real reason to stay together.

Suddenly, he wanted back. I was done.

Walk away is scary. Like I said, I had absolutely no idea anything was wrong, and my confusion was seconded by everyone who knew us. One minute, XH was bragging about his wife and a week later, he left me for someone else.

I would not have had the patience for a cake eater IMO. I would have lost it. It was already enough that I started to hate my XH, but had he been stringing me along, I would have gone insane... I know it.

Recovery for me was very easy. He left and I did not see him. I was in Plan B (unknowingly), and fell out of love with the person I knew, all the while knowing I would never have that person back. When he did call or try to get ahold of me, it would annoy me to no end. It became me saying to myself, "Now what?"

Walk away was difficult... at first. It became easy though knowing it was over... for good.

My marriage would not have survived if Ike was a cake eater. At least he was out of my home and doing stuff with the OW instead of living here, pretending to care for me, and going behind my back to be with her. Of course, it hurt when he walked away, especially as I had no idea, but I can deal with that a lot easier. While we were separated, I probably would have preferred him to be here, but now, knowing myself as I do, it wouldn't have lasted past Baby D's date of birth. I think (and he knows this also) that is he hadn't come home when he did (before the baby was born) I would have filed D papers soon after coming home from the birth. I love Ike dearly and I think that he is a very special man, but I'm a special woman, too. That is something that I learned while we were separated and partly thanks to MB.

I think that walking away is easier (for me anyway) because there is a little more honesty (as another poster stated). He felt he was doing what was best for him (and me and the kids, weirdly enough...blah waywards!) by leaving because our marriage wasn't what he wanted it to be.

So, I've done cake eating with Ike (years ago) and I've done the walking away. Though it hurts so much,I prefer the walking away. Because he wasn't pretending with me. The cake eating was much harder on my self esteem because, while the walking away made me feel rejected, the cake eating made me feel MORE than rejected. It made me not trust my instincts because I should have known what was going on. And, it made me see how easy it was for him to lie to me about anything.

I hope this makes sense. Sometimes I tend to ramble and have to clean up after myself later.

Galoot, just want to say that in my case, ready-to-walk-away-case, the recovery is not easy (slow and painful) but you are correct in that she is now honest and open...Probably because she actually believes in those "rules" or "ethics". Strange as it may sound, they do...and that is a good thing.

My opinion.

They both suck!

This is main reason I go through these mental masturbation exercises.

My reality of living with the same woman since 1980 is not the same as now.

We are fine now and looking forward to our first grand child and planning for a 2 week backpacking trip in late spring but my instincts are untrustworthy.

I have actually learned to trust my instincts. They were spot on during the A and when we first began R. I get this thought in my mind and it won't go away and it nags at me constantly. Once I research it, I find that I'm right. Ike has been amazed and pissed at the same time.

That's something that I wouldn't have gotten, probably, if we hadn't separated. I really learned to look inward and find ME.

Congrats on the first grandbaby!!! My mom says she likes being a grandma because she can tell me what to do with the kiddos and I can't really say much to her.

I hope you enjoy your backpacking trip. We are planning a cruise in April and to head out west to Washington state in July. I can't wait!

So what if your WH walked out after dday, but then became a cake eater during Plan A, like a massive cake eater, cheating on the OW 3-4 times a week! LOL What if they are both?

Now that my wife and I are in recovery, what are WE going to do now? We're going to Disney World! (Seriously, we are.)

Actually she planned the trip. It's just like old times.

Roy,

LOL! My wife is a total Disney World fanatic. That was where she used to go each summer with her mom and our kids, and without me, and that was where she was supposed to spend the day with her ex-bf.

And when we reconnected, the first thing she did was to start planning a trip to WDW for our family, me included (and not MIL)!

It's amazing the changes that can take place in a wayward. Ike was never into going on vacations or anything like that. However, he is all into planning this cruise (for JUST the two of us, no kiddos) and he has even talked about renewing our vows (though it might be too soon for that). I never considered him a romantic guy and now I realize that maybe he is, but not so much toward me because I am more practical that romantic. Or more daydreamy about silly things than romantic things...I dunno.

What do you men think about that?

I think it comes down to the personality of the BS. My H was a cake eater. It is a bitter pill to swallow that a cake eater can have an A with no intention of ending the M and was willing to look in the BS's face and lie for God knows how long. All for cheap thrills? On the flip side, the WAS who wants a replacement thinks his BS is interchangable and OP is a quality person? WASs see the pain they have caused and still doesn't care?

Both are evil and disgusting. I personally have an easier time with the caker eater. It still sucks but I could not and would not fight for a WS that could witness my pain and still carry on the A. It's one thing to stab me in the back, it's another to do it while I see the knife coming. A WAS that wants a replacement is like a vulture waiting to swoop in. They WANT the OP's family (assuming the OP is married) to be destroyed. I have a harder time with that. If my FWH had been a WAH he could have keep on walking. I already had enough resentment to deal with.

Well, mine was a cake eater and walk-away husband. He began as a cake-eater, though I was not aware of the A at the time. All I know is that OW was caught by OWH and it was her second A (WstbxH is OM#2). OWH immediately threw her out - no ultimatum, nothing. OK, not immediately - he gave her a month to find a place. For about 2 weeks before Wstbx gave me the ILYBNILWY speech, he was very troubled and cranky. There was some reorganization going on at his work and I thought he was worried about his job. I believe now that OW gave HIM the ultimatum - leave your wife or we're done. D-day came a few days after he asked for a divorce. They had an appartment 2 weeks after I first learned she existed.

So, while he was cake-eating, things were fine. But his abrupt departure was crippling. I STILL wanted him back until I dug up the dirt. Obviously he didn't tell me he'd been cake-eating. When I found out about OW, he tried to minimize the time the A had been going on. He even told me he only meant to have an affair, not to fall in love and leave me. Older evidence that is definitely prior to this A suggests that he may have had previous cake-eating affairs but I will never know for sure.

I don't know if or how long I would have put up with cake eating. But I certainly didn't stand a chance as things were. Now if he were to want to come back I wouldn't take him. But that's more because he had deceived me for so long than anything.

That sounds like us... I think I am the more romantic one and my wife the more practical one. And that's fine - it works well for us - but in our Bad Old Days I don't think she thought of me as romantic, and I don't think I thought of myself as romantic. I think I was when we were courting, but not so much during the first years of marriage.

For me, growing up I was never "successful" with dating. Although I was usually in love with someone, they never felt that way toward me... and I assumed there was something inherently unromantic about me and that I just didn't know all the "right moves" or didn't have the "smooth attitude". I met my wife when I was 25, and she was my first girlfriend - and it wasn't until 4 years ago that I ever saw myself as capable of being romantic.

I had to grow into it. I had to grow my understanding of who I was before I really recognized that part of myself. It was always there, but I never saw it, and I don't think my wife did either.

Maybe your husband is similar?

So this is almost verbatim what I was going to say. I believe that my WH left, though, to not only continue the A, but also to add weight to his argument that we would have "ended up in the same place" despite the A.

Since there is not verfied data about R for either situation, I've got to wonder how is it helpful to look at this? As a BS in Plan B whose WH has moved out, I felt a little less hopeful reading this thread. Does anyone have anything positive to add -- i.e. walkaways can also come back and R can happen?

bestfriend439, So sorry you are having to go through all of this...

It is extremely helpful to NEW people that arrive here that they know what to expect...

If they are dealing with a cake eater spouse they learn that they MUST do a very good Plan A so that the WS can see for themselves what a GOOD marriage could be like with the BS...

I also feel that the cake eater doesn't really want to "leave the BS" they are trying to fill in the "blanks" in their EN with the OP.

The cake eaters spouse has a chance to let the WS compare them with the OP...

If they are dealing with a walk away spouse the duration of the Plan A before going to Plan B would be much shorter JMHO than if they were not because the WS is not debating whether or not to leave...

They have already left...

You not only have to talk them out of not leaving...

You then have to talk them into coming back to a situation they have already decided to leave. Plus you then have to deal with them justifying their decision to leave in addition to everything else.

Jim

It's happening right now...to me. Ike moved out and came back on his own. We are attempting R now and I have to say, our relationship is better than it has been...EVER, probably. So, don't lose hope. It can and does happen.

Yeah, Verve!!!!
Thank you for posting this!

You know, at one point, I thought that OW was a replacement for me and that made me feel like crap. Then I had an epiphany. The OW can never replace me because she is not me and never will be. She settled for second best by choosing a man who was already married. I thought that I was second choice, but I wasn't. I was first, always, because I was the one who was loved enough to be married to. OW was second best because she let her self be that. She let herself be a piece of [censored] by believing that it was "love" or whatever. So, this is the way that I chose to see it. I am not, nor have I ever been, second best.

I quoted you, Jim, because I wanted to agree with the justification thing. Yeah, it's silly and annoying because the WS can use ANYTHING to justify their A. For Ike, it was that I was a negative person and he just couldn't live like that anymore. Whatever. I'm not a negative person...I was just unhappy at where things were at in our relationship, though more subconsciously than anything, and it showed. When I'm happy, it shows.

But, I wanted to disagree with the "talking the WS" into coming back thing. I don't know if there is a way to talk them into coming back. They have to want to come back on their own. I asked Ike if I talked him into it, and he said, you tried, but that wasn't what made me come home. I came home because I wanted to.

So, just wanted to throw that out there.

You're welcome BF! I know that when I was in PB I was curious about the statistics (along with LilDoggie who is also in R). Don't lose hope, but don't have false hope. Use your time to work on yourself, really. I learned a lot about myself. I learned that I CAN trust my instincts and that I AM a good person and that, not to toot my own horn, I'm a pretty good advice giver (just not taker!). Get to know yourself during this time. You won't regret it no matter what the outcome.

My H was also a walk away, he moved in with OW before I even knew she existed. We are now approaching 2 years in recovery.

I am probably going to get blasted for saying this and I am anticipating being told that it is not helpful, but it is something I have noticed on MB and it bothers me a great deal.

So here it goes. It seems like I keep reading about people who are doing great plan B's and are not seeing their WS's return. But the people that I have seen do terrible plan B's are in recovery.

This is limited to the few people who I have followed their threads over the past year, but it really does bother me.

Yes I know that plan B is part of MB and this is MB's website which is precisely why I do not comment anymore to people who are contemplating or are in plan B.

Of course a WAS can come back and recover. It can happen. It might be more difficult in some respects, but it can happen. Whether the WS is a cake eater or WAS, both are living with a twisted mentality. Some people wake up and some don't. There are a lot more factors to consider, but in either case I don't believe the WS "loves" the AP. They may think they do. They might like the thrill but I think it's more lust or the "idea" of the OP than anything else.

Verve, Great post full of hope especially to all the people in Plan B. You are a true success story!

However, it should be noted, Plan B IS talking someone into coming back because of the CONDITIONS and HOPE FOR A GREAT MARRIAGE that you tell your WS for coming back i.e. No contact, meeting EN, working on the marriage etc.

I do not believe that you would have accepted Ike back into the marriage if he had not met your conditions for the above.

If it had been acceptable with you for him to keep the OW you would not have put conditions on him for coming home and told him (talked him into) that a great marriage could be possible.

If you had let him keep the OW he would have been a cake eater rather than a walk away spouse...

It is a credit to both you and to your FWH that he LISTENED to you and what could be possible for both of you.

God bless.

Jim

No blasting from me. While some MB concepts have merit, I have problems with others.

I think it really depends on the WS. I did a terrible PB and we are in recovery and doing well. However, Lildoggie did a great PB and she is in recovery and doing well, too. A really great PB would NOT have worked with Ike, not at all. While not talking to me bothered him greatly, when he DID talk to me (my crappy PB) it made him want to talk to me more. He saw changed in me that he wouldn't have seen if I had been completely dark. So...that's my $0.02.

TTLIG, you have been such a source of help and knowledge though this, for me. I do agree with something that you said to me during the A...I can see similarities in our situations. I always enjoyed talking to you and I think we have similar outlooks on things. So, just wanted to say a big THANK YOU again!

Awww, Jim, thanks! I don't know if we are a success story (we'll see as time goes by), but I know that I am one because I changed how I saw myself and really looked inward, which is something that is important to me.

I talked to Ike more about the "talking them back to the relationship" thing and here is what we decided. While a BS can give the WS a reason to want to come back (a great spouse, welcoming home, kids, etc) they ultimately have to decide it themselves. They have to be ready and willing to deal with the boundaries. Perhaps it's even a growing up for some WS's because they finally see that all relationships in their life DO have boundaries and that they need to respect them.

I do see your point about "talking them into it" but I see it more as giving them a reason. I find it very difficult to talk Ike into anything, but if I show him the logicial aspects, there is more of a chance that he will agree (I'm very good at logical reasoning when it comes to that, hah!). So, I guess that is my way of talking him into things (but don't tell him that!). Hmmm...so I do agree with you. Thanks for helping me see a new point!!! I'm always ready and willing to think of things in a new way!

p.s. I just hate to think of it as talking him into it because who wants a spouse that you had to talk into coming home? Then again, I guess that is what we do when we are dating, right? Talking them into loving us? Lots to think about here.

Do you mean they had contact during plan b? I still struggle with this, because knowing my WH, I feel like I needed PB to get stronger and to recover, but that to for him to even consider the "conditions" he may need to have contact with a healthier me. I don't feel like I was too healthy (or attractive, for that matter) after dDay just from the shock of it all, but that I am in a better place now.
I know that I will be in an even better place as time goes on, but I'm afraid that I am missing a window here to engage my WH. He is still in contact with OW, but I don't believe he is seeing her at all....

Let's clarify a point here. I'm interpreting "walk-away" as the spouse that ups and leaves immediately or almost immediately after D-day. A spouse that stays for a while (cake eating most likely) while the BS implements Plan A for a bit, then leaves isn't quite the same thing. There are dynamics going on in the meantime, Plan A and others that affect this.

I can't say MB failed in my case at all. I really only had a couple of days from finding MB and him moving out to read, learn and attempt to apply Plan A (which up to that point I'd done a poor job of). But even after I abandoned recovery, I still applied some of MB principals and guess what - the jerk responded predictably, in a text book fashion. I can never say for 100% sure if I could have got him back, had I applied the Plans properly and thoroughly. But I can't say that I wouldn't have, either.

Many of the failed marriages here are due more to incorrect application of the plans. Slow or no exposure. No consequences to the A - that sort of thing. Although again, it's really hard to apply Plan A when he's out the door before you even know he's cheating.

Very difficult. I had no idea of an affair until about a week and a half after he left. And, at that point, it was nearly impossible to track him down.

I didn't really get to do a PA because Ike left 10 days after dday and I had no idea about MB. Of course, I honestly don't think that even PA would have saved us at that time. He was bound and determined to go and had to just find an excuse. I didn't find MB until May and he was out in April, so during that time there was some crazy crap going on!!

I agree Tabby that a WAS is one that leaves immediately or almost immediately after dday, not one who stays for awhile.

It doesn't sound like you did a plan A, did you? From my understanding of MB you need to do a great plan A before you plan B. I agree completely with what you said, if your H does not know that you have changed and doesn't see that he could have a good marriage with you then why would he even consider coming home? I know my H thought I did not love him and didn't care that he left, if I had never convinced him to talk to me (told him I needed closure) he would not have looked back. He walked away, filed D, and moved in with OW, he was moving on with his life until I let him know that I had changed, I did love him, and we could get through this together.

No, I did a plan A, some before I knew about MB, when I thought WH had ended contact and wanted to work on marriage. He then said it wasn't working and ILYBNILWY and moved out ("I think we are over.") I was angry and hurt and committed mucho LB and then 6 weeks later I found out that he had never ended contact and that we were still in the middle of the affair.
At that point I had found MB, I exposed and tried to do a great plan a, which was hard because he was already moved out and I was incredibly raw. I even talked with Steve H and WH even talked with him once (to help me, not the M).
Anyway, I went to Plan B after about a month and then I finally started to get healthier. Stopped crying daily, no phone, text or email LBing (which I didn't do in Plan A, but prior to MB) and started to focus on myself.
He knows where I stand, but I can't help but wonder, will he lose whatever love he says he still has if we are in no contact? Sometimes I feel like mine is draining just because he seems to not miss me at all, but then again he is absolutely respecting my requests by not contacting me and by taking care of the finances.
IDK!!! ARRRGGGHHHH!!!

I understand those feelings completely and I honestly have no good answer for you! Just know that there are others that you can talk to and share with, others who have been there and know how you feel. Also, YOU CAN DO IT!

My FWH was a little of both. He was cake eating after D-Day, sneaking around, lying about his where abouts and phone calls, and contact. Then when i dicovered contact again and gave him the ultimatum of "me or her", he left and moved in with her. It was only for three nights until he called me begging to come home and that he had made a mistake.

I still am not sure which was worse, it was very hard to see this man who i love just look me in the face and tell me that he loves me and that he wants our marriage to work and the whole time he is lying and sneaking around behind my back and probably telling her the same thing.

But it was also very hard when he told me that he wanted to be with her and he left.

No matter what it sucks to be betrayed in that way!!!!!

So it sounds like a WAS needs to be plan A'd more than a cake eater?

My WW is a "cake-eater" and it so confusing. Luckily, I found this site early on and haven't made to many LB errors.

I told her this morning that I have spoken to an attorney and that seemed to ruffle her feathers. "I never thought you would have spoken to attorney this soon" (D-day was 12/27). I told her that I didn't want a divorce but I wanted to make sure that I protected the children and myself.

I asked her if she wanted a divorce and she said No. I said, that it must be hard on her to be in two relationships and why would she want to put her herself through that. She said I meet needs that he didn't. I said, yes I understand exactly what you saying, thanks to this site.

She has planned a nice getaway weekend with the OM for mid-April. I plan to tell her that would be a good date for her to decide whether she wants to remain in the house. If she goes on the trip then I think she should leave and I begin Plan B.

I think I have made some strides in Plan A. I have even planned a trip to Disney World for March (youngest DD birthday) to help reinforce what she will be missing if she decides to take that trip. One of her big ENs is family commitment and that is what keeps her here. She doesn't want to leave the children and says she enjoys how we are a family.

After reading SA, I realize that I have put my career ahead of her needs. I have been trying to meet her need for Affection and Admiration, two areas where I feel that I have been lacking. Its not easy, especially with affection because I get accused of invading "her space". I have backed off but still try and be affectionate without crowding her.

That's probably a EN OM is meeting.

agree with Rusty.

Joseph - is your WW staying in the house after the 1st now? I dont recall.

Definately a cake-eater. I believe my wife was a cake eater but could have progressed into a WAW. Geez after 25+ yrs of M at the time (we are now almost 29yrs, no wonder she found fault with me and thought the OM was superman. Didn't help that the OM was a rich oil and gas man travelling all over the world too.

OM was pure fantasy and I am all too real - warts and all. It seems that when the WW hit the 40 range - they go into anthr mode. The kids are on their own somewhat and they look around after yrs of service and cant believe they married the schmo next to them.

In ways I cant blame them if we dont recognize that we as men have to court our spouses continually. On the other hand, we men also were in robot mode to provide for the family, get our children in sports and school and other chaotic lifestyles. When we wake up and the children are independant and close to leaving; she wonders who is this guy . Does that make sense ?

This thread has shown that there are too many factors to predict how successful plan A will be.

There are WW's that walk away and never come back, and those that do.

There are WW's that are fence sitters. Sometimes the fall of on the OM's side, sometimes the BS's.

As for the "ethics" of a WAS, I think there is a little bit of screwed up wayward logic to that.

My WW has told me that she felt that she couldnt do that to me(living at home and secretly boinking OM). That makes loads of sense there...lol.

I have since found out that WW had talked to people a couple of times in the months before she left about the M sucking and she was thinking of leaving me because she didnt think it was working out. I thought when WW told me that she was already wanting to leave and OM was just a push that it was all fog talk. I guess not completely.

Looks like to me that a WAS needs a good plan A and a lot of patience. That seems to be, from what I read, the thing that happens usually is that the BS usually gives up. Waywards almost always want to come home at some point but their timeline may not agree with ours.

Oh well, enough for now. The kids are at the circus and WW wants me to come over and watch a movie.

Thats the idea of going into Plan B - have the OM meet all the needs. The gamble is he may or may not be able to meet them.

Another angle is if there are no children involved. I think Plan A needs to last longer to make any traction because Plan B will push to PLan D. No children will result in a WAW situation very early on.

What really bothers me when I read threads in which the WW is a WAW with 3 or 4 young kids. I can never understand how the addiction or the infatuation chemicals can over ride the natural maternal instinct - cannot get my head around this one.

I completely agree with you here. Women seem to want to be romanced (I dont necessarily mean this literally) all the time and if you arent doing that then they feel like they arent being loved. We are trying to love them the way we see and feel love and they want something different, which is why I think the top 5 EN for men and women are different. After lots of reading I was just not loving my W the way she wanted to feel loved and appreciated and she was doing the same to me.

Maybe just loving them for who they are and setting healthy boundaries is the way to do it. IDK.

My WW rationalises this one because she has a step mom and a younger half brother.

There is absolutely no reason, though, why a husband should ever stop courting or romancing his wife.

It took almost losing her for me to realize that.

I've also realized that keeping the courtship and the romance alive keeps the marriage fresh and alive and exciting. We have bills, kids with all their assorted problems and activities, a mother-in-law going thru Alzheimer's, money stresses, etc etc. Everything that in the past I could have used as an excuse to pull away from the marriage - but now instead of everyday life sapping my marriage, my marriage itself energizes me to deal with everyday life.

Exactly CC. I did not even know this myself. After my WW left I started reading. The first book I read was just one my mom had Men are from mars...and it really opened my eyes to what I was screwing up. My W was so sweet and loving for years and I was a PITA to her.

What about paternal instincts also? I understand that females have a genetic predisposition to child rearing that men do not, but a man can be a wonderful father one day, and the next he is all into the AP and not the kids.

I do agree though, that it upsets me greatly to read threads where a mother has abandoned her children. I just couldn't even imagine doing that. :twobyfour:

Yes, she did spend last weekend at his house but that backfired in her face because the girls figured it out.

I talked to them last Saturday, my WW and I were supposed to do it together last Sunday. She finally took them to dinner tonight and talked to them. Not sure what was said, I am sure some babbling about she needs to find herself. My daughters totally caved and didn't ask her the tough questions that they said they wanted to ask her. While disappointed, I don't want to use them as a pawn. Our DS (26) wrote his mother his version of a NC letter because of the pain that she has caused. She is so much in a fog that it bearly seemed to bother her.


Her OM is not rich and was living with his ex-girlfriend (girlfriend) when my WW met him in an apartment above the barn at the horse farm where we board our horse.

How did you recover your M?


She said something to that affect, that the kids were almost grown and out of the house and she didn't know if she still wanted to be married. Blah blah blah.


Totally agree and yes this makes perfect sense now that I have read SA. I had always put her and children first and I had moved to a new job and made the mistake of putting it above her and them. It was a one-time horrible decision and hopefully it won't cost me my M. However, she is in the deep fog and just told me tonight that this has nothing to do with the OM. I didn't say anything; trying to build up my LU's. She made a comment that I know that you don't believe that but I didn't fall for the bait. I just kept my mouth shut.

From the day my WAS told me he was not happy in 7/08 and moved out on 10/1 he never cake ate and I felt like I was living with my brother.
I did not confirm the OW till end of August.
H was in A for less than 2 months and never has seemed to look back on our long term M. I do feel replaced by the OW and if H choses to return I know how difficult it will be after feeling so totally abandoned and treated so poorly.
Never cake eated at all.

My FWH was a Walk away, i seduced him into becoming a cake eater before I found MB. Then when he found me on MB he stopped cake eating. then he started again a few weeks later.

As far as the plans, once I understood them I followed them faithfully. And for me they worked. I am aware tho of others who are doing as good, if not better plans and it is slower for them.

Perhaps my H was weaker and sucumbed to an A with less provication and therfore needed less tempting back? I dont know. I will say i believe in MB and i would do it all again.

Replacement was my wife's goal and we recovered.

I don't think that WAS's don't care, it's just that their needs are more important, as it is with all waywards, cake eaters too. And, honestly, don't all WS's think the OP is a quality person? Bleh.


Agreed totally. Look up evil and disgusting and there will be a line that says, i.e. a wayward spouse. LOL.



Doesn't the cake eater do this as much, if not more, than the WAS? A cake eater is in the home (usually), seeing the pain and suffering DAILY, and still continues the A. That is why a cake eater would be harder for me. A cake eater is saying that they want the M, but they want the OP on the side no matter what. While a WAS is saying they are done with the M, so who should care if they are screwing around with someone else. Neither is right and neither is good and it's all up to the BS what they can personally take. While the cake eater isn't totally rejecting their spouse by saying they are done, they are outright disrespecting them in their own home. The WAS IS rejecting his/her spouse (though I don't think they necessarily see the OP as a replacement or being interchangeable with the BS), they are, in a weird way (IMO), being more honest by saying they are done.

There's another $0.02 of mine. Of course, someone else may see it completely different, but that is why they say opinions are like [censored] holes...everyone's got one.

Brief threadjack...

Verve...

A quick question...I see from your above quotes that you are benefitting from the Government W.I.C. program...Which is GREAT if you need it, however, I am curious if you guys can really afford to take a cruise and then another trip to Washington state? I'm not trying to be a total killjoy, but something about that just seems "off" to me...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

I think that your question is rude to ask on a public forum and it seems a bit "off" to me for you to ask such a personal question here. However, if you are that interested in my monetary situation, I would be more than happy to explain to you in email.

My email address is below.

Thanks.

I wasn't trying to be rude, Verve...It was an honest question asked based on information that you posted here...I see that you are in early recovery and I know that financial strife can be hard even on marriages that are not in crisis...Just asking you to look closely at your situation and choose wisely...I apologize if you felt that was out of line.

Mrs. W

Sounds like a fair question to me based on your posts. I'm sure MrsW was not meaning to be rude.

I think it was the insinuation that she is benefitting from Govt. handouts, yet taking cruises. I think Verve may have felt a little defensive as not all beneficiaries are ripping off the system, are elegable for assistance, and a holiday is always in order IMO for people newly in recovery, espcially with a one off windfall.

I talk to verve offlist, and I know why she has the means to take a trip, and I don't begrudge her one bit.

Thank you, Mrs. W, for explaining. It seemed, from your post, that you were trying to insinuate something. It seemed odd for you to bring it up in this thread, out of the blue, instead of posting in my personal thread or, if sincerely concerned, asking through email since my address is clearly written on the bottom of each of my posts.
We can afford a vacation by budgeting and saving just as any other couple and the government knows all about our income so no worries there.

Edit: I tried to write something very unemotional and only factual, but, honestly, I am deeply offended by the insinuation in your first post, whether it was deliberate or not. You have never posted to me before this that I recall and I respectfully ask that you keep it that way. Thank you.

that's the danger of over generalization i suppose. Point well taken. Its from my little world of growing up in a large Italian family in a small mining town in Canada. The NHL brought me down this side of the border back in another life. Rwinger is a position and not necessarily a political stance - btw.

There are couple of old threads - heartsore22 [if I recall] and another from last year (wife discovered the thread and its gone) that involved a WAW with young kids that shook me down to my core.

Hopefully not t/j too much - but the first clue I had of something amiss is when on Valentines Day 04 (for newbies this is the holiest of days for waywards) my wife received a dozen roses and mentioned that the OM said I was a schmuck for not doing the same. Basically I had never took the "hallmark" holidays seriously - always thought of them as marketing ploys. Oh boy was I wrong and a schmuck. Now I romance the heck of my wife everyday and esp Valentine's Day.

I think most all husbands go through a "jerk" stage. I am lucky b/c I woke up in time.

Verve, not to beat a dead horse, but as taxpayer, I am offended to see my tax dollars go to a family that can afford cruises. I work my fanny off and pay thousands of dollars every year in taxes so you betcha I resent that. I very much want my tax dollars to go to people who really need it, not those who don't need it. Hopefully, you can understand that taxpayers might also be as offended as you since they are footing the bill, which I suspect may be the point of MrsW's post.

Perhaps. But I'd imagine there are plenty of WSs that can think the AP is good enough to [censored] but not good enough to marry. lol warped thinking considering the source but I think that happens.


My FWH's cake eating days ended on Dday so the above does not apply in my case. Had H continued cake eating after discovery, we would be divorced today. If a wayward continues to be a cake eater or becomes a WAS after Dday I don't see much of a difference between them at that point other than perhaps the WAS is more "invested" in the A and thinks their relationship is the real deal and/or is more fogged out. In both cases, the WS would be adding insult to injury by continuing the A after Dday. I don't think the WAS is being more "honest" but I see what you are saying. It could be that the WAS is done or it could be that they just aren't willing to deal with BS's "drama" (their thinking)and figure they might as well keep on screwing OP while they can because they think or know the BS will take them back later.

Just b/c the government knows your income (it's legal) doesn't mean it is morally correct to accept handouts, while saving money for vacations and cruises.

Yes, that was certainly one of my points, Mel...Marshmallow also made another excellent point...

The thing is, my post wasn't really an "insinuation"...The FACTS were posted by you, Verve...I could simply have posted them together and said NOTHING...Your own words tell the story quite well all by themselves...

And sure, a "holiday" is great in early recovery if you can afford it...But that vacation could just as easily be taken at home or somewhere near home [it's the TIME together that counts]...It doesn't have to be a cruise in April, when the prices are inflated for Spring Break...[Mr. W and I were thinking of taking a cruise ourselves then, however, when we really thought it through, we think we are more likely to do so in the summer months when both cruise and airfare prices are down...And sure, we can afford it at anytime of year, but why spend the extra money when you can get the same thing at another time of year? If we do find a "deal" at that time, we may go then, but we are paying our own way in all aspects of our life.]

Also, Verve, never are wise choices more important than in early recovery...Putting yourselves in a financial bind is ill advised at anytime, but especially when your marriage is not at it's healthiest point...Pointing that out is not a slam, but rather, good advice...

A "one off windfall" should be saved for a rainy day (or used to get off of government assistance programs)...Living beneath your means is always the best plan no matter how much money you have...that is just wise...You say you've "budgeted" for your vacations, but would those really be in the "budget" if the government wasn't footing around $1800/year in baby formula for you?

In closing, I'm sorry that you are offended by having your own behavior pointed out to you...I've noticed that most often when something said here really bothers me, it's usually because there is TRUTH to it that I need to examine...Something for you to consider...

Mrs. W

P.S. I saw your post before you edited, asking how Mr. W and I afford our home...Simple answer: We do that on our own by working; that's how we get everything that we have.

P.P.S. Now that I've answered you Verve, I'll be happy to respect your request, however, if you post to me, I will post back if I feel it's warranted.

Actually if Verve's state is the same as mine the WIC program allows you to earn quite a bit per year (far more than regular government assistance) and still qualify. I used the WIC program for a little while when my kids were young until my H and I started earning a little more money on our jobs.

I don't know what WIC means.

I do know that there was a lot of welfare abuse during the 60's and 70's. Where people were geting color TV's and cars.

I do know that before welfare their was Home Relief during the Great Depression.

My mom telling me that Home R person would come to periodically inspect your home/apartment.

Where the Home R person would see curtains on the windows and say you can afford curtains you don't need Home Relief and want to take away your benefits.

So my mom and her sisters would run to take down the curtains before the Home R person would enter their apartment.

The Home R would want to make them go hungry for having curtains.

I think that all can see how my mom and I hate welfare.

There have been times when I have been out of work. As now, collecting unemployment. I have always been lucky enough never to need further assistance.

Unemployment does not pay me half of my take home pay.

Years ago unemployment was not taxed. It now is.

So a person on unemployment takes home even less money because it is taxed as income.

Why is the government taxing us more?

Because they are giving away to much money.

I have no job, no health insurance for my wife and I. I had to pay for health insurance for my son through my sons college so he could attend this year.

My wife does not have a high paying job. I don't blame anyone for me losing my job.

It saddens me though that my government is increasing my taxes to give more to others.

Especially when some of those that are recieving finacial aid are able to go on cruises.

When I don't go to the doctor.

My wife is putting of going to the dentist.

I think the point being made here (which is obviously being missed by some) is that income should be used for the necessities in life first and foremost. THEN, extravagances should come after all needs (rent, utilities, Food, etc). Once should not use the taxpayers' money for provide food unless it can not be afforded. (or formula or whatever). Individuals should take care of what is needed versus what is wanted and a cruise is certainly "an extra" that is not life threatening whereas food or formula would be.
Everyone deserves a vacation every once in a while but how could one budget for a vacation while accepting my tax money to provide for their children? Makes no sense to me.
Priority issue it sounds like.

Our country is in the mess that's in partially due to people taking advantage of the government programs which they COULD do without but refuse to do so simply because they can get it.

I don't know... little confusing to me.

Dawn,

It IS interesting that this topic appears on a thread about "cakeeating" because that's what it is. A couple recovering from infidelity should attempt to remove all forms "entitlement" from their marriage and life. Just as it's not illegal for Verve and her husband to take advantage of the "WIC" program it's also not illegal for her husband to commit adultery. I'm not, in any way, comparing the two, but Verve's husband has an obvious issue with boundaries and this behavior is in-line with such issue. It's just taking advantage of a government institution versus the institution of marriage.

Entitlement begets entitlement and, yes...as a taxpayor, I, too, am offendend.

Mr. Wondering

Well i guess i just don't see it the same way as you. My H and I have both always held a job and my tax dollars are used same as yours. I have never received EIC or any other assitance but as i stated before i used the WIC program for a little while when my children were young. The WIC program is available to anyone and only supplies formula, juice, cereal, eggs, cheese, and milk.

I also used a program that paid my baby sitter to feed my kids while they were at her house and my income was not even asked. To me it would be silly not to take advantage of programs that are out there.

Listen, this is a "no brainer". I understand the point that you are making "Still crazy"... however, the point being made here is that if you can afford a CRUISE, you should be able to afford food and formula for your children--without government assistance. Plain and simple.

I was a single mother for over 10 years with a very low income and I NEVER accepted any handout from anybody--including the government. I worked and took care of priorities--needs versus wants. I didn't get to take a vacation for over 10 years. Or not much else for that matter but, I did take care of my kid--me, myself and I.

Our country is in such dire straights right now partially because of people taking advantage of the system when they obviously don't have to. And, I resent the fact that my husband and I have to pay more in taxes that alot of people make in a year and there are people using "our" tax dollars for something that they don't really have to use it for and then going on a cruise instead of buying FOOD. That is completely illogical.

If you can't understand that then, there is no hope.

I did not mean to upset you. And i did not take a cruise when i was accepting assistance myself (or go on any vacations or do any extravagant spending or any of the above) and as soon as i felt that i could afford to buy the things on my own i quit accepting WIC as well.

My point is that the WIC program to me is different than most government assitance and is available to people with a fairly high income. If the program is there why not take advantage of it.

When you wewre a single mom i am sure that you received EIC with your federal income tax. To me WIC is not any different.

I certainly did not receive EIC (earned income credit) or any other type of assistance -- from anyone. They were not even doing the EIC then. I worked my butt off and spent every pennie I made on taking care essentials. Not taking cruises...
Do you hear what you are saying??? It's almost like saying "that married man over there is willing to have an affair with me so, even though I am married, he's willing to do it so, I might as well take advantage of it". Like Mrs. W pointed out--just a different type of boundary issue.
I have NO problem with someone who REALLY needs government assistance getting it but it really strikes a nerve when someone who really doesn't need it, takes it--just because they can.
We've really gotten a little "off" the subject of this thread anyway.

With EIC and all, about 40% of wage-earners in the US effectively pay no income tax at all.

Because there's no such thing as a free lunch.

B/c what you are really doing is taking advantage of your NEIGHBOR not a program.

It is your NEIGHBOR who funds the program.

Before a person reaches their hand into a government program they ought to humbly consider their neighbor.

Well me and my H are not now and never have been in this 40%, we have paid taxes every year since we have been together. We both worked even though it did not pay me to work when we had our son as after all was said and done i only had about $50.00 to put toward the household expenses but i worked anyway.

And we have never received EIC for our children.

We certainly have struggled our whole married life for everything that we have as well and these are "my" tax dollars we are talking about here too.

Also i am certainly happy for all of you have to "pay more in taxes" than most people make in a year as this must mean you are doing well.

Do you think that people who earn more than you shouldn't care about welfare abuse? Or care that there are folks who think that b/c the government is able to pick the pockets of their neighbors they ought to take advantage of it JUST b/c it's there???

"Doing well" is a matter of personal opinion. We ALL struggle with one thing or another. But, we would all be doing much better if we didn't have to take care of those who don't pay taxes and those who take advantage of government assistance. If you can't afford something, don't get it--including kids.

Like I said, we've gotten away from the real subject matter here.

No i did not say that at all or mean to insuate it. I do not know if you earn more than me and my h do or not and it does not matter to me what you or i earn. I pay taxes the same as you as i have held a job (and so has my H) for my entire adult life and most of my teen years as well.

Do you think if people did not take advantage of it then the program would go away? Maybe so but the tax dollars would go elsewhere not back to you or i.

When me and my H moved to the location we are now the school district offered a TAG (talented and gifted) program. Both of my DDs were eligible for this program because they were smart and their teachers nominated them for the program.

This teachers for this program were paid for with tax dollars and heck yes i took advantage of it for my kids (never for myself but anything for my kids) and i do not see anything wrong with that.

We have also always supported our kids and i agree that you should not but something if you can not afford it.

I am simply stating that THIS taxpayer thinks differently than you regarding WIC that is all.

Let them have cake! lol


Cake eaters and WAS both suck. Instead of cake they should both eat cow pies.

I thank God for WIC (and the taxpayers who make it possible) because it helped my daughter feed and nourish my two grandchildren. She works full-time and has been with the same company for five years but her income is not very high, still isn't.

My oldest GD was born with some medical problems that required surgery and there was no way my daughter could afford that. She was able to get the surgery through a government medical program for children with special needs. When my GS was born, WIC helped again.

She took maybe one week off of work for the birth of both children. She has NEVER had a vacation. Her paycheck goes for necessities only. She gets a nice tax return each year but it usually ends up going to buy much needed new clothes for the kids and catching up on bills.

Could she afford kids? No. But she didn't/doesn't believe in abortion on demand either. And they're here now. She doesn't want any more children (has learned THAT lesson the hard way) and had her tubes tied after my GS was born.

I'm proud of her for how hard she works to provide for her little family. She is looking for a new job since she just used her tax money to pay back her boss for loans he made her throughout the year to get by. She didn't want to leave owing him any money.

It was because of government programs that she has been able to better herself and SURVIVE.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a person can afford a cruise, no matter where the money came from, then they shouldn't be taking government money.

The only exception I could see would be if someone BOUGHT the tickets for them and they were non-refundable. But going on a cruise involves more than just the tickets themselves, there are all kinds of other costs involved.

I dunno, my daughter would be THRILLED to go on a cruise, but she knows that's not realistic until her financial picture improves and she doesn't require assistance.

She jokes that maybe some day her (wealthy) knight in shining armor will rescue her. But until then, she does what she has to do.

Well, your earlier statement sounded as though you do care what others make and approve of high taxes for those who earn more money than you do.


-----------------------


Now you're back to the "If the program is there why not take advantage of it." mentality.

Taking from your neighbor is still taking from your neighbor, whether you break into their house and steal from them or whether you ELECT someone to do it for you.

I hope your bright girls will grow up one day to take advantage of the AMERICAN DREAM (while it still lasts) not government programs.

It all boils down to morals. Do you have them or don't you?

WIC (Women, Infants and Children) is a great program in that it not only provides what mothers cannot afford, but also education. From what I recall they encourage breast feeding and offer (require?) classes. This is great for those who need it because with all the babies having babies these days, IMO, it's education that they lack! And without much family support they need a place to turn.

My accountant told me, "the Government wants you to take their money". Kind of like a 'use it or lose it' scenario. If you qualify, you should apply. However, I'm sure the Government doesn't want you lying or cheating and that's not a very harmonious way to live. You know who you are if you're doing it! I accept that my tax dollars help the needy. Heck, a year ago I WAS the needy and thanks to a program I found out about thru my power company, y'all paid to keep the lights on in this very house.

What you give out in life comes back to you - ALWAYS. And if you take from life, then life will take from you.

OH - and I think it's safe to say I have a Walk Away Spouse.

The government has money?

My goodness, a little disagreement results in this!!!

There is really no need to bring my children into this discussion at all. We simply have a difference of opinion.

Me and my H make enough money that we have NEVER qualified for any assistance other than WIC (and that was only for a short time until we started earning more money) and i think WIC is a wonderful program as was the TAG program at my childrens school (which has since been done away with due to lack of funding so the talented and gifted children no longer get more challenging assignments while staying with children of their same age group).

I did not set up the WIC program it was set up well before i had children and i did not set up the TAG program. And i was not asked what my income was for my children to be in the TAG program.

While i agree with all of you that you should not accept assistance if you do not need it, i feel if the program is there and you meet the qualification for it you should take advantage of it.

At least i know my tax dollars are going to a good cause as PM just posted regarding her DD.

PS FWIW all three of my children have also had jobs since they were 15.

First of all, let's clear up that YOU are the one who brought your children into the discussion.

Where I am from, all schools offer programs for "gifted" students. It is just part of the standard public school system--the gifted program. Property taxes and the lottery fund the educational aspect of the schoold there.

TAG program was discontinued likely because too many people decided to bilk our government by getting WIC and taking cruises!

I feel sorry for the elderly people who either don't have insurance or not enough insurance and can't get proper medical care or prescriptions that they need but also can't get any government or community assistance.

The people who are able to provide for themselves and their families but take assistance should be ashamed.

Actually i brought the TAG program into the discussion, my children were simply put in it to say that they were able to take advantage of the program that actually i had no idea was funded by tax dollars until it was cut and i asked why and that is when i found out about the funding.

And in my state TAG is not part of the standard public school program, you would have to go to a private school for this kind of program here.

I too feel sorry for the elderly who live on fixed incomes. My mother was one of them, she would go without her medicine so that she could pay her bills. She was not able to get any assistance either.

At least she lived in a small community and the pharmicist knew everyone by name. He let my mom charge her medicine and make payments on it, when she passed away the pharmicist told us not to worry about mom's bill, there is no way we could have done that and he was paid.

Even with all that said i still belive the WIC program is a good program and i am glad my tax payer dollars go into it and i hope everyone who qualifies takes advantage of it.

Let me ask you this do you and your H take all of your deductions when you file your taxes?

I would hope the answer is yes because you are entitled to them.

That is all i am saying about WIC. The program does exist, it has an income qualification, if you meet that qualification then you are entitled to the benefits of the program.

We support our own family and do not receive assistance of any kind. My H and i choose to not have things like cell phones and expensive cars and we only have basic cable and no long distance on our phone and we shop at the thrift store for our things so that we can take vacations and such with our family.

Taking DEDUCTIONS is NOT the same thing as accepting government hand outs.

Deductions are about keeping more of what YOU have EARNED.

Accepting hand outs are about taking what OTHERS have EARNED.

Sorry about my confusion on who brought the children issue into the conversation...My bad.

About the only deduction my H and I can take on our taxes is our interest on our mortgage. Our kids are grown so, there aren't many deductions for us to take.

Like I said before, it's as bad as saying, that man over there is AVAILABLE/WILLIMG to have an affair with me so, why shouldn't I "take advantage" of doing that? Even though I'm narried and I don't need him but, as long as he is there and willing, I might as well....

See the difference?

If it's needed FINE, if it's not needed but just "available"--not FINE.

Folks - let's keep this respectful and let's get back on topic...

Hear hear

Can we get back to Opinion on Cake Eaters v.s. Walk Away Spouses?

Will do but i do think i was being respectful.

I was finding this rather interesting

Stillcrazy

One should not have to expect others to pay to raise their children. They were not forced to get pregnant. By being greedy and taking from the government only makes the government larger and increase everyone's taxes. Which leaves them with less pay.

Because politicians make programs so loose that people can legally take advantage of free handouts do not make these handouts morally right.

No matter how one slice's it's STILL CRAZY that people can be eligible for any form of welfare when they can afford to go on a cruise.

How about moving the current topic to the Off Topic Forum so this thread can go back to cake eaters vs walk aways spouses

As was I.


Consider the number of people who smoke and accept government assistance, WIC or otherwise. Over the course of a year, the cost of cigarettes for both parents would equal that of a small cruise. Looking at things from the perspective of what is better for the women, infants and children of the family (WIC), a cruise for the parents that will help the marriage is undoubtedly preferable to secondhand smoke.

And smoking may be gross, but when last I checked it was not immoral.

I believe that the government wastes billions of our tax dollars by conveniently neglecting to hold agencies such as the Dept of Defense and USDA accountable. Google "government waste" for some egregious examples. That has me far more incensed than someone who is eligible for WIC having a financial windfall and deciding to take a cruise. I just can't get excited about that.

Social service programs such as WIC take up very little of our tax dollars, but since there's a human face to them, it's very tempting to moralize.

I agree with this, and my point about 40% of American wage-earners effectively paying no taxes was meant to make a similar point. One might just as well say it is wrong for that 40% who do not contribute toward the government to take cruises or buy cigarettes or buy soda or have cable TV for that matter.