I'm moving over from the recovery page. It certainly no longer applies to me and wh. To make it short, I've (not him) been trying to recover my marriage since Nov. He has promised NC since then but always fell short.

Today he finally told me he doesn't want to quit talking with her. He doesn't see her as we live in Europe and she's in CA. They talk.

We talked openly this morning. He's unhappy too. He says he feels trapped and stuck in a situation that he can't free himself from. He wants us both or maybe he justs needs to be alone for a while.

Here's where it gets tricky. He's military. We live in Europe. We have 2 children. D (15) and S (13). Last week my DD did something I never in a million years anticipated. She has been depressed over leaving her boyfriend in the States. We moved here last Nov. He is not someone that My H and I approve of her dating. Her best friend here moved away this summer. She misses the USA. She's still angry with her dad regarding his A and our initial separation last summer. H had planned to D me and marry OW. She took a lot of pills and ended up in the hospital. I'm having a B*&^ of a time finding an English speaking therapist for her.

H thinks we need to stay together for the sake of the kids. He says he doesn't know what he wants. He doesn't want me to move back to US. He hasn't given up on us.

He told me this morning that he doesn't want to quit talking to ow. I know he's not happy. He says he wants to do the right thing. He wants us to stay together for the children. If we separate, it will be my decision.

Options

1. Leave him and move back to states. This means it's over because once the military moves me back to US that's it. He has 2 more years on our assignment here.

2. Stay here with him and try to put on the happy face for kids until next summer. Renters will be out of our home in FL. I can move back into our house. We'll have been married 20 years at that time which means I'll have full medical benefits for the rest of my life. Gives kids a little more time with their Dad. Maybe this is better for daughter at this time. She needs stability from 2 parents even though I think she would be ahppy to move back to US. Gives me a chance to complete an school that should help me get a job.

3. Plan B - get H to move out into own apartment and stay here until next summer. Told H this might be an idea. He is concerned about trauma to kids with this option. Doesn't want them to know we're having problems.

4. Modified Plan b - H stays here in our apartment. Different bedroom. I try to ignore him and endure until next summer.

I feel so stuck. Those of you who have followed my problems along, I would so appreciate advice. As well from anyone else.

Help

Marykat

i havent followed the whole story---but i vote for option 2. it puts YOU in a better place with medical and job training. two things you are definately gonna need

IMO stay there until have 20 years in,

1. That is an important survival issue (unless you are independently wealthy)...also I think affects retirement down the road.

2. Since they can only talk negotiate (if possible) frequency and length of calls, and let you know content (if willing)..maybe tape them. Ditto access to all voicemails/emails...BUT you must be absolutely safe, no comments at all, and assure him you won't harass him about the conversation no matter what transpires. This keeps you in the loop, and actuially the sharing (although difficult) automatically brings you closer together...rather than apart as would complaining.

3. Do a plan A/B combo....some distancing, seperate bedrooms (no intimacy unless NC). But meet other EN's and NO LB's. Who knows what may happen in a year. By knowing about contact (if he will agree) and doing an honest plan A, you have the best shot at getting him off the fence....he will know the clock is ticking, you don't need any ultimatums...just that you (both) will give this a year, and reevaluate then...rather than continuous conflict.

4. Focus on kids, gradually make them aware of your relationship problems, honesty is best policy....but that you BOTH are there for them, they need to be a part of this...it is a family issue that affects them too....and you can't hide it anyways.

5. Work on yourself alot, make it a point to focus on your growth too (independent of H or kids).

For anyone who's interested I've explained my situation in previous thread's that can be found by clicking on my name.

I've been trying the Plan a/b, but without separate bedrooms and leaving out the SF. That was the one good thing we had going. He was very happy in that area with me.

He's always hid any contact. I've had to discover it on my own. Now I guess he's admitted he has no intentions of ending it with her. I don't know if I can keep it up. Maybe it would be different knowing that he intends to talk with her. He has to travel back to the States often. I'd always suspect he's seeing her.

How do I protect my heart? How do I live here for 11 months with the man I love knowing he wants someone else or at the very least isn't committed to me? How do I go out on a "date" with him just for a drink knowing he's thinking of her and is anxious to get home to call her.

What kind of an example am I setting for my children? "Doormat of the year"

I wish I could do the 180. That's been my goal lately. I can't seem to do it without anger. I'm certainly no fun to be around. I need an attitude adjustment.

Marykat

marykat,

I am so sorry. This must be so difficult for you and your family. But maybe there is some relief that it is out in the open? I can offer very little help in this matter, except support for you and the kids. My kids are D, 16 and son,12. You found the right board in GQII. There are many here that can help you.

You might also search out Cerri on JFO. She is a MC and offers help on MB. Look up all threads by Cerri and JL, who also offers very solid advice on MB. This is a huge dilemma for you but there are many here that can give you the advice and tools that you need to get through this. Your kids are old enough to sense that things aren't right, and it will effect them.

Just out of curiosity, what does you WH expect you to do? Just get out of the way when he wants to talk or go visit the OW? Maybe he can offer some suggestions as to how to deal with adolescent children whose father is committing adultary with another woman? It is helpful when those creating these horrible problems for their family have some solutiions as to how everyone does not suffer the obvious consequenses.

Hugs to you marykat. Please keep posting at MB and let us know how you are doinging. Keep asking questions, there are many here with intellegent effective answers. God Bless you.

Heavens

Dear Marykat:

somehow I missed your story up to now. I am so sorry for this dilemma that you are in.

I think you have to work on yourself first. Maybe when you find an English speaking therapist for your daughter you could ask about IC for yourself. You need to find out what you want. Do you want to tolerate the continued contact and enable your H's cake-eating behavior? Would you be able to plan B until NC is established?

I see that you are in a more difficult situation being in a foreign country and the OW is far away. Nevertheless NC is very important.

IMHO plan A is not going to work because you don't set boundaries and yes - turn into a doormat. It sounds like your H still loves you so maybe he has to realize what he is risking to loose. Plan B sounds like a good option. It also prevents you from LB'ing and from getting hurt.

Have him move to a different apartment. Talk openly with your kids.

You sound like a strong woman with an excellent sense for analyzing the situation.

I wish you strength to find the way that is right for you.

All the best

marykat - I am sorry to hear what you are having to endure. It is time for some "tough love" and and end to the cakewalking that your husband desires because he can't seem to deal with reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He told me this morning that he doesn't want to quit talking to ow. I know he's not happy. He says he wants to do the right thing. He wants us to stay together for the children. If we separate, it will be my decision. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgive me for being so blunt, but I could care less about what he "wants". He cannot have it both ways. That is reality. It's called a choice.

He says he wants to do the right thing. He wants us to stay together for the children. If we separate, it will be my decision.

He is trying to avoid a decision and make you out to be the "bad guy" for making the decision regarding your marriage. I'm sorry, but in this respect he is being a mouse, not a man.

He has no idea what the "right thing" is, or at the most generous he does know what the "right thing" is but he refuses to do it.

I was afraid that this would happen following his "visit" with her when he was in California. He is afraid of withdrawal and so to avoid it he "gives in" to his "need" to talk to her. It is obvious that he will not make the hard decision without some external pressure and motivation.

His idea of the right thing is confused. He wants us to stay together for the children is an indication that he knows that what he is doing is wrong and destructive to both the marriage and to the children. You cannot allow him to use the children against you to "justify" his continuing to live in sin and violate the marriage covenant.

Let me put it this way. Suppose that he liked the Bin Laden terrorist organization and found them "easy" to talk to. Suppose there were things about the US Military that he didn't like or that didn't "meet his needs". Suppose that every time he talked to, or met with the BL organization he "felt good and understood" whereas in fulfilling his military duties he felt some needs were not being met and that he was just going through the motions of loyal service to his country. Suppose that he wanted to stay in the military for the "good of the other servicemen and women" in his unit even though he had sensitive, "classified" information at his disposal that he could, or did, talk about with his BL friends.

Now, consider yourself to be his commanding officer. YOU are aware of his relationship with the BL organization, either through discovery or because he told you about it "pleading his dilemna in wanting to keep both relationships". As his commanding officer, who's best interest is served in allowing him to continue the relationship? Who's best interest is served in demanding an immediate end to his relationship with the BL organization? If he will not stop the relationship on his own, will you allow his "sin" and "confused decision making process" and "faulty justification reasons" to cause long-term harm to your entire command and the people YOU are responsible for? Would you "arrest him" and put him in forced "no contact"? Would you seek the aid of others to "unbrainwash" him?

Obviously, his commanding officer would not tolerate such a situation. He would be arrested and most likely dishonorably discharged and possibly jailed for "treason", certainly for "fraternization with the enemy". But in your husband's twisted idea of what is "right" he wants you to condone his actions and be the "bad guy" if you don't agree with him.

marykat, this is not easy. He is torn and being controlled by his emotions, not what is right and what is wrong. He wants to manipulate you because YOU have an understanding of what is right and wrong and he wants YOU to feel guilty if you move to protect yourself and your children from his blatant sin. He says he wants to be married, but his actions reveal the lie to what he says.

Yes, I understand fully about the 20 years and medical benefits. There is nothing that says you have to divorce. But there is also nothing that says you have to be a doormat and allow him to continue in his blatant sin. Married means NO ONE comes between husband and wife for any reason. Married means forsaking ALL others whether we "feel like it" or not. If it were me it would boil down to "choose this day whom you will serve". When faced with a similar situation, my response was "pack up and move out today". Not because I stopped loving, but because the sin and ALL of it's ramifications must be exposed and must be felt. So long as you allow him to "have it both ways" he escapes having to confront the reality of his choices.

Yes, it could well end in divorce. I don't know his spiritual status is so he may well decide that his "feelings" are his sole guide to right and wrong. But the issue must be "forced" in my humble opinion if you are to have a realistic chance at recovering your marriage. You don't have that now and you won't as long as the OW is anywhere in the picture.

Yes, there will undoubtedly be more pain, anger, and heartache for the children. They won't understand. But you must be there to support them and to show them that there ARE "right and wrong" standards in marriage. You teach them that there ARE consequences to sinful actions, some of which affect the innocent, but that standing up for what is right is what "adults" do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. Plan B - get H to move out into own apartment and stay here until next summer. Told H this might be an idea. He is concerned about trauma to kids with this option. Doesn't want them to know we're having problems. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the option that you presented that I would favor. Doesn't want them to know we're having problems is not true. "WE" are not having problems. HE IS the problem and his lack of honor is the problem. He wants to hide, you cannot allow him to use you and the kids to hide from making the only decision that is "right", forsaking the OW forever, enduring the withdrawal from the addiction, and honoring your marriage vows. He doesn't want pressure to have to make a decision. He really couldn't care less about the children or he would stop NOW. He WILL try to use them as a club to beat you into accepting his continuing sin. Or will you put in another 2 years, playing the "all is okay" game and move back to the States where she will be waiting for him?

This is emotionally tough no matter what you do. Choose the direction that offers the most protection and safeguards for you and the children. Each way has pain and negatives to overcome, but even though painful at times, standing up for what is "right" has the best long-term chance for recovery, married or not, and for your children as they grow into adulthood.

God bless you during this very difficult time.
(((((marykat)))))

marykat,

FH just gave you an excellent, moral, Christian answer. I wonder if your WH is sitting on the fence, not able to move, wanting it all, suffering in guilt, shame and self-loathing because he cannot make the choice on his own? Maybe he is needing marykat to be the strong one and make the choice for you both, for the family, bc he can't or won't?

My FWH said that he was sloppy about a lot of things during his short EA/PA, bc, subconsciencely, he wanted me to find out about the sin and secrets and step in and stop him. He was too weak and confused to do it himself. OW was also very overbearing and demanding.

When I did find out, I rocked his world, our world. There was no way I would tolerate a "third" person anywhere near our M. So, I flew into action. When I forced him into decisions and threatened him with "exposure" to his children and his family, his attitude changed in a matter of hours. The light of day (or another light?) flooded in.

This doesn't work for everyone, its just that I don't share my stuff with anyone and, thank the Good Lord Almighty, it was the 2x4 my WH needed to wake him up out of the fog.

Excellent advice, FH. As I have said before, God bless you. When I read your answer the voice in my head was saying "why didn't I see that?" It is simple when you follow the right and only path, right? His path...

Heavens

Heavens and Foreverhers

I've just returned home from my son's end of season baseball party and parent/son baseball game. My H is an avid ball player and my S is quite good. It was so dishearting to watch the game. How can he just turn his back on this family. How could he have let this ow tear us apart.

I'm so thankful for your replys. I'm going to get through tonight and hope for a better day tomorrow. I've got a lot of thinking to do. it'll be a long night.

Marykat

Marykat,

((((((((marykat)))))))))),

Please pray about this. He might have the answer for you. It might take a while for you to know the right path, been when you know it, you will find it easy to follow, JMHO.

Be strong, MK. Hang in there. Go the distance. I might not be as bad as it seems right now. Keep your faith. Keep patience. Please, please take care of yourself.

Post here as much as you need. Vent, rage, cry, get it out. There are so many here with experience and wisdom to share with you. You are lucky to have MB. We all are.

I am gone from this Sat to next Sun. Fam to the beach. But I will try and sneak in from time to time. You are in great hands so I won't worry about you too much. OK, I will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are in my prayers.

Heavens

MaryKat,

Wow what a decision. Although I did not have quite the decision to make three years ago I still had a life altering decision to make after my EX 2nd affair. We had worked so hard in recovery I had thought. I had plan A'd and I thought we were doing great. It just so happened that his Mid-life crisis was stronger than I was. Actually it was my 16 year old D and my 13 yr old son that said,"Mom, what Dad is doing isn't fair to you or to us we want him to leave." So he left and moved in with OW and her kids across town. I couldn't afford the house alone so we moved to a rental and that B*&^$%d moved into our home with her and her kids. For me it came a time when I couldn't be treated like that anymore. My kids saw that and I'm sure your daughter sees that too. She is crying out right now. I think she is very unhappy and just doesn't know how to deal with it. I think they need to be your first priority right now. Not him, health insurance ect but the kids. What do they want?? How do they feel? Don't underestimate their intelligence in this whole thing. You are not the bad person here but its you who has to make the hard decisions.

My advice to you would be at the least make him live apart. If you and the kids are unhappy in Germany than I say go back home where your support system is.

I'm sure the Army has rules of conduct for infedelity maybe they can help you continue with your health coverage.

I know how painful this is. The decisions you make now will impact the rest of your life in some way. Just remember that you are too good to be treated like this.

Try to find out information on mid-life crisis. Sounds to me like he is having one.

Jill

Subdb

This is certainly the option that seem less painful at the moment. And you're right who knows what can happen in a year.

One thing that I've really been thinking about last night is the fact that I don't want to hand her my life on a platter. As a military wife, we've moved "a lot". I've been a stay at home mom, but I've learned how to throw a great party on no notice. I'm not anxious for a serious life-style change. I'm not afraid of going back to work. My kids are getting older and it's time for me to get out with the grownups again. My H has worked hard to support our family. We have a nice home, investments, we're at the point where we can finally enjoy our lives. I don't want to walk out and hand all that over to her.

However,

Right now H says he can't give up calling her. He says he will promise not to see her. ( Does this mean he had plans to see her?) There's no way he will tell me anything about their calls. (when, regarding conversations).

There's something that I don't understand. Our sex life was great, very frequent and always fulfilling for us both. However, he was never affectionate with me. I would sometimes get a quick peck on the lips goodbye. Cetainly no real kisses. He would hold my hand when we were walking. I can't remember the last time he came up on his own for a hug. So basically no affection, but he sure liked the sex part.

His A started sometime the end of 2001, early 2002. We're coming up on 2 years of his relationship with her. Maybe he will never give her up.

Last night I asked H if he remembered how miserable he was here without us. He was here from June to Nov last year before we arrived. Part of this time was spent with us being separated and his anticipation of our D and marrying ow. He whined and carried on about how unhappy he was alone. He said last night that ow would not join him here again. She came over last summer. She was in the process of moving her things here. She gave up her job, apartment, everything to come over with him. He asked her to leave 2 days after she got here. She's just moved back to CA with her family. After all he did to her I can't believe she still talks to him. I guess she's got it bad to.

FH

I'm still absorbing all that you said. It's all so true. There is healing in doing the right think. I know I would survive. In the end maybe the kids and I would be better off without his manipulative behavior.

I don't know if I can convince him to move out here. I can't move. I have no income at present to qualify for a lease.

I don't plan to do anything until I've spoken with my D's therapist. She has an appointment this weekend. After all that has happened with her, I certainly don't want to throw her over the edge again.

I can't imagine my S without his Dad. They're such buddies.

I've considered telling them that their Dad has continued his relationship with ow. I know they know there is tension between us right now, but they don't know why.

I think my H is on his last leg with his commander. I'm sure he wishes we were never assigned to his section. He knows a lot about ow from last year. He knows of D overdose. He has told H that anything else and we may be sent back to US. Not sure if me deciding to leave matters or if I ask H to move out if that will be the last straw.

Heavens

Have fun at the beach. I'm jealous. I could crash on the beach right now. Thank you, thank you for the support. What do you think of me telling the kids what's going on. My H's relationship with his family is a bit strained right now. I had their full support last summer over all this. He's felt hurt by their support of me. His F basically called him a coward. I haven't told them of his continued contact. don't think that would have much affect on H.

If his commander knew of his continued contact that wouldn't be pretty. I guess telling him would be a huge LB. Not to mention possibly affecting his status in military and thus retirement money and prospects for job in the civilian world.

This is some seriously thick fog for him to not see how he is screwing up.

Ice princess

you're right Plan A is the doormat plan for me. I've been trying it for 7/8 months and it hasn't changed anything.

Somewhere I read that Plan A is for getting the ws away from ow. PLan b is for when the ws is sitting on the fence. He's definately on the fense. I don't know if I have the guts for plan b.

Jillybean

I like your name. It makes me smile just to say it. You sure seem to have made it. I read another post of yours. Best wishes for your engagement. What happened to you is what I'm so afraid of. I guess it's the fear of the unknown. I've never actually lived on my own and been solely responsible for myself. Maybe I would like it.

The thought of raising 2 teenagers by myself scares the (*&^*^%$ out of me. Your story sounds to me what my life might be like after D. If H and ow were to marry I don't give them much hope. She has 2 young children. A crazy exH. My H loves our kids to death, but he doesn't have much patience with other kids. He's admitted he doesn't like and can barely tolerate her kids. I don't think they would last.

I'm not staying with him just for the medical insurance. I mean I certainly wouldn't D him today just 9 months short of our 20th anniversay. That's when full medical kicks in for former military spouces if you D. My H and could separate until then and D after that point. I know he would wait that long.

Of course he says he doesn't want me to leave at all. Why does life keep giving me this?

Thanks to all

Sincerely

Marykat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

marykat - yes, I agree with you that the difficult decision is to know what to do and then to take the tough step of "doing it."

Only you can make that decision. Only you have all the facts at your disposal. Only you truly have an understanding of all the dymanics.

All that we can do is offer suggestions, but YOU have to decide what is applicable to you and what is not. Only YOU has to live with whatever your decision is.

You did mention several factors that are real concerns, such as your daughter's problem. That may even take some precedence in the process. One thing is certain though, she will continue to be affected by your husband's continuing infidelity. You have to decide at what point there is more potential damage to her from observing your tolerance or intolerance of your husband's blatant infidelity. Sometimes it's both the verbal and nonverbal communications that the children are exposed to that shape THEIR mental processes. (i.e., is the proper way to deal with sin to ignore it simply in an attempt to avoid pain caused by the sinner?)

With respect to your son...I know it tears at your heart, but please remind yourself that it is your husband, not you, who is responsible for any potential loss or rift in their relationship. Infidelity, unfortunately, strikes at many people and at the entire family. The consequences are the fault of the the infidel, not you. Yes, you may be left with the task of trying to teach your son "lessons" from the unfaithful actions of his father, but that, too, is part of parenting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is some seriously thick fog for him to not see how he is screwing up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and the problem with the fog is that the one caught in it usually can't see it. To them, all that they are doing is "normal" and "necessary". I suspect strongly that your husband is still talking to her because of guilt. He feels "responsible" for the problems in her life that have resulted from his actions and their affair. He thinks of himself as a "nice guy" and that it would be "selfish cruelty" to simply "dump" her.

Yet, the fog prevents him from seeing that he is doing all that to both you and your children. He knows that you have all the fears. He knows that his actions are, or would be, unacceptable to the children. He knows that you care about the children. He knows that you have "taken him back" and didn't "force" a decision on him.

But he also knows, as you have stated, that the military has no problem with enforcing rules. Yes, up to a point they will work with the person to try to help them get their life "straightened out", but there is a limit to that and a point at which the commanding officer will "cut his losses" for the good of the entire command.

The fog, again, fools your husband into thinking that the military rules are not for him because he "cares so much". This is false logic driven by his lying emotions. To him it seems real because he then gets to do what he has decided is "important". But everything about it rationalizes the pain and suffering for you and the children and denies that the military has rules that he cannot "bend to his warped thinking."

This is why confrontation is necessary sometimes. This is why the issue needs to be "forced" sometimes. There are consequences of his continuing actions that may well affect his future with your family and with the military. Such is the nature of infidelity and lying to oneself, which is what your husband is doing. The reality in infidelity is that SOMEONE always gets hurt, even devastatingly hurt. There is no situation where everyone gets away with no pain.

Let me get a little gross for a moment. He has been, through his actions, crapping on the floor. The smell and the potential health hazards are there for your whole family. Given enough time it may even affect the military unit he is assigned to. Next to his "favorite" dumping place is the proper receptical for his "urges", the toilet. So he "compromises" and only dumps on the floor every other time (because it takes more work to lift the lid and sit down)and thinks that this is a viable solution. You can choose to accept and live with his compromise and tell the kids that you are being tolerant because he has a "problem that you trying to work through", or you can choose to simply inform him that the risks from his continued behavior are unacceptable and you will no longer allow yourself and others to be put at risk by his behavior. He has to choose. He either uses the toilet all the time, especially when he has urgent "urges" or he finds another place to leave it on the floor, in another house. But you will no longer "clean up his mess" for the good of the family. He is an adult. He needs to stop acting like a spoiled, fearful, self-centered child and DEAL with the consequences of his choices.

You have lived with the mess on the floor long enough. You HAVE given him all the understanding and forgiveness for his occasional bouts of diarrhea that exploded before before he could reach the toilet (like when you two are physcially separated by geographic distances). You HAVE helped him to clean up the mess, sometimes even dealing with it all by yourself as he runs away from the stench himself. Now, he is no longer a child in diapers. Now he has to take the responsibility of putting his "desire" in the proper recepticle instead of just dropping it wherever he "feels like it".

I hear your fears, and they are real. YOU have to decide WHEN enough is enough. You have to decide whether your marriage to him, the possible pension, the possible healthcare benefits, the possible damage to your children, etc., is sufficient reason to "endure" his continuing blatant infidelity. And continue it will if the boundary is not set. The fog will continue until the heat of the sun sheds enough light on it to start it lifing and to eventually dissipate the fog entirely. But even though the fog does lift, it may leave behind the multiple car crashes on the highway that will take additional time to clear away. Remember, that in this analogy, the sun doesn't care about the loss of the fog or that there are "messes to clean up". All it does is to provide the "light of day" that acts upon the fog, darkness, and painful crashes that resulted from the "cloud" deciding to rest on the surface instead of staying where it belonged, in the sky. The sunlight leaves the "clean up" to us, but it leaves a clear view of reality and the future cautions that must be taken to avoid further crashes when another inevitable future fog desends to confuse our decision making process.

Part of this process is laying out for your husband, if you choose to talk before simply acting, all of the losses that he will cause. Military career, pension, wife, children, family, .... the list goes on and on. Yes there will even be a loss that the OW suffers and that your husband will have to deal with (all of the things that make him "him" to himself, as well as the guilt, disgust, remorse, etc.). This is the "light of day" shining on his foggy brain. It won't lift instantly, but the light doesn't stop and the inevitable lifting will occur. Sometimes quickly and sometimes it takes a long time if the fog is thick and parts are hidden in mountain shadows, until the sun rises high enough in the sky to reach those stubborn fogbanks also.

The one place that you should turn in all of this is to the Scriptures. Turn these difficult decisions and potential problems over to God and ask for His help. Be true to God and let sin be dealt with, for the good of your family, your husband, the military, and even for the good of the OW. The timing of the "sunrise" in this instance is up to you. You can continue to keep running, keeping just ahead of sunrise, or you can reach a point where you realize you can't run forever and then stop and accept that sunrise will happen. Prepare for it, wait for it, be ready for the cleanup when daylight overtakes the fog.

God bless.

I dunno marykat, having read some more and based on your confidence your 20 year benefits are not at risk (and does seem no matter what could delay any divorce 9 months), as well as your certainty H would not include you in the "loop" re ow, I am going to modify my suggestion. Also although I took a different (pragmatic) tack, I pretty much also agree with FH response. I am NOT a fan of enabling fence sitting...it is just that sometimes fence sitting is not really what is going on, real confusion is...but in your case it seems more likely classic fence sitting.

A couple more thoughts. If he is on the outs with this commander, he may (in part) want you to stay (etc. etc.) to avoid further military consequences, using you in other words. Re the sex, it is really really disturbing (to me) when a man uses a woman just for sex, no regular habit of affection, and other nurturing behaviour.... Oft times folks just write this off as oh well, that is just how males give and recieve love....nothing could be further from the truth, it is how males use women for their primal needs, and has nothing to do with love....males express higher order love exactly like females do, and when that nurturing/safe/buddy relationship isn't happening....neither is love. He can have sex with you for one simple reason....you make yourself available for his use, you may (if you do) feel good about it cause you think it means he wants you for being you, and also enjoy the hardwired benefits we all feel from sexual activity. This confuses women cause they think somehow committment is involved.....it isn't, not without other validateing committment actions...it is just sex, he could do it with anyone. However, when (if you do) stop, telling him it is not good for your well-being without a committed (exclusive) relationship, he will eventually get angry etc. cause of the enforced celibacy. This may be directed at (and blamed) on you. Stand your ground, this is a boundary issue, and a consequence issue....he will either respect that or he won't...if he won't he is not a safe marital partner, and you need to know that if you have any desire to spend the rest of your life with him....he may not be worthy, now is the time to find that out.

Re the kids and his "buddy" relationship. It is common for people in this circumstance to say such things, and wear blinders. It is hard for me to imagine he is much of a role model, and often the buddy stuff is really about the adult, and benefits them, is focused on them. Is he really tuned into your son, understands your son, meets his needs without worrying about His (H) own? Or is he really fundamentally using your son, and the relationship to feel good about himself?

If he was a good role model, he would not visit injury on his son by concealing the affair, he is instead treating him with disrespect, and injury (by introducing tension into the family without any explanation). It is one thing to find oneself in disharmony with ones spouse, with or without an affair...and quite another to try and conceal the disharmony. Teenagers are not kids, they are young adults, they need to know what the problems are, and how they are being resolved, this teaches them important skills, as well as reduces unwanted/unexpected (and unnecessary) side affects on their emotional/psychological well-being.

Your H needs to step up to the plate and be frank about his marital concerns, as well as his need to continue contact with the ow. By revealing this information the truth sets you all free, and a course of action can be arrived at that takes care of everyones needs. This should not be an assign "blame" lovebusting fest. For H or you you (and whatever contribution you have to the marital breakdown). It is not the end of the world as we know it for an adult to admit they have issues and concerns and confusion about life. If nothing else this would be a huge rolemodel benefit to the kids. They are old enough to understand that relationships are complex, and difficult (heck they know that from relating with their parents). They are also quite capable of understanding one parent cannot be a doormat to the other just for their sake, or some hope of "saving" something....teenagers have a keen sense of fairplay (just ask em <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). They will have no real problem in understanding different bedrooms, some emotional distancing etc.

This also relieves (and rightly so) the huge burden of keeping secret from them something you know they are entitled to understand. It also gives all kinds of opportunity to use this bad experience as a learning one for them, as they will be selecting mates soon, and this is an entree into the whole area of marriage, behaviour, temperament, how people fit and communicate, and what can happen if they don't do their pre-marital homework. It also gives an opportunity to fully discuss all the family dynamics they have also lived, that led to this point. All this is very very important....your H desire for secrecy is hugely self-serving, disturbing, and revealing of his character far more than having been in an affair.

You do not need his permission, this is one of those unilateral decisions a parent is allowed to make for their kids well-being. But if you do so, I would think it ALL through carefully, and present it without being about blame..."see what your dad did to us", that would be a reflection on YOU, and very unhelpful to all.

One resolution may be that dad needs to live somewhere else (a seperation), kids can understand that too. There are proper responses to all human circumstances. Continuing to live as if you are a functional married couple (decieveing the kids) is not one of them IMO. They need to be a part of what is not only a couple problem (they don't need to be privy to say....um the sexual details, or other personal stuff between you and H), but also a family problem (are we an exclusive unit or not dad, if you are vesting time/emotions/money in another person, that needs to be figured in). They have a right to voice opinions about this.

As for your H, he does not sound like good marriage material. He obviously has serious issues with committment, and duty, and may be just your garden variety narcissist, or BPD, who just really has no capacity for seeing other people, only himself, not unusual, and just means you have to be prepared for a life of imbalance, as you will never be safe, and the marriage will be about him. Asking the woman to alter her life, come to him, and then send her packing is breathtakingly selfish (not to mention the ow obviously needs a major overhaul to her reality filters, not realizing what a loser your H is....not that she isn't just as bad). Continuing to have sex with you while pursuing the ow is bad bad news. He doesn't even have the decency to be exclusive to someone, he just uses you both for his needs. His concern about the commander is revealing also....he is defying that authority (and committment) as well. Lastly using his son (by decieveing your son of information that would allow your son to act as he wants with his dad) is also "using". Basically he comes across as a self-serving user....your basic narcissist. Yep, he hated being alone, why wouldn't he, no one to use...no one to validate HIM.

Affairs are not plesant things, but they do have one very interesting unespected affect, everyone gets revealed for who they really are...the ws, the bs, and the op. The sad thing is, many people do not take advantage of this information, and thusly get no benefit from a life experience (more commonly known as the school of hardknocks), that comes at a very high price. Strange.

In any event my advice has changed.

1. Tell H the kids must be told, for their well-being, encourage him to work with you on an HONEST revelation...but that if he is not up to this, you will...assure him you will tell him first, so he can comment if he wants, but you will do it yourself if he is not up to it. When he uses anger/threats to try and manipulate you, be calm, tell him you understand that is upsetting, but the kids welfare comes first, and you hope someday he understands.

2. In conjunction with #1 (and kids input), he probably needs to move out unless he is willing to at least reveal all contact with ow, as well as content. He needs to tell you when they talk, and what they discuss. Then maybe could do the in-house thingy...under the concept he is temporarily emotionally disturbed, and some support is ok for awhile.

3. You need to look hard at his relationship with your children and be sure he actually is a safe parent, or whether he is using them for his own emotional well-being. This is how kids get messed up for life...when they have a seemingly "good" parent, but they are being "used". It is very very common. Abuse is not just about verbally trashing or neglecting your kids....it is about focus too, and whether you are using your kids for your own benefit...enjoying the camaraderie, vicarious living throgh them, all that stuff. Parenting is a leadership role, a mentoring role, it is absolutely not a buddy role...no one should be buddies with their kids. I realize buddy is a loosely used term, the relationship should be fun, but there should never be any doubt that mentoring is going on, teaching important moral/ethical/behavioural skills, and it sounds like yoour H is not doing that much.

4. I would definitely consider going back to states after a few months (if you see the need)...maybe not wait a year, more plan B focus. But in the meantime giving your kids a few months to understand and adjust to this seems useful. I don't think your H really comprehends (if he is even able to do so at all) his marriage is almost over. I think he is using the kids to also further his agenda (which includes keeping you around until he decides to replace you....yuck).

marykat,
Read this link about plan A and plan B. Maybe it can help you sort things out.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Still praying for you. Yes, come to the beach. Maybe you need a little break, go to some exotic place for the weekend just you or with the kids and think about your plan. Sweetie, you need a plan.

Heavens

MK,
Leaving today. Please keep posting. I am going to post on recovery for tsc. She can help you.

I just wanted to tell you, kinda quick. FWH and I were talking last night. He told me that what snapped him out of his fog was when I was going to make him talk to his children and tell them where he had been over the weekend (not on fishing trip but with OW). He said to look his son and tell him and see the devestation and the hurt in his eyes, he could not do it. He knew it would damage his innocence for life. I told him he would probably never want to play baseball again, the sport that they share, bc he would resent his dad so much. I told him that the 15 year old d would probably start taking drugs and sleeping around, cause that is what kids do when they are angry and their parents screw up things so bad that they destroy the safety and security of the family. I was going to make him do this. Whether I would have gone through it, I will never know. But the reality of what he was going to have to say to his children, to look them in the eye and tell them how much he had messed up, he could not do it. could not face them. It scared him into reality. The light of day. It can be powerful. JMHO.

I will be praying for you.

Heavens

MK,
I am sorry, so very sorry that it has come to this. I feel for you, I feel like you are a real friend. I can sense the wonderful person you are through your posts. There are so many terrific people here, yet your posts have stood out for your dignity and loving manner.

I think you need some form of Plan B, whether it be he goes somewhere else to live or you go for a few months back to the states. Is there anywhere you could go? Your D could get good therapy during that time, you can separate yourself from your H and let him deal with the consequences of his actions.

A couple of things: this is HIS decision to mess up the M and risk separation. He is continuing contact with OW. I know whereof I speak as my H is still doing it. Phone only as well, but in your case I really believe they will see each other when he goes to the states. DO NOT take on the blame for separation.

You are changing/have changed the things you were responsible for in the state of your M. He and only he is responsible for the A. Very, very hard for them to see this and they are good guys so they don't want to do wrong, but they are being, as FH put it, mouses, not men. Need to grow up and handle emotional pain and sacrifice when it is for the right reason, moral, value.

What I want to offer you is for you, not any plan or specific action except that you MUST take care of yourself. Be your own best friend. If you believe in God or spirit, rely on that. God will never let you down, you are never alone. KNOW that lessons will be learned from this, even if only on your part and your kids'. Seek those lessons. One for me was that I was way too far from God and my spirituality. Praying, reading scripture, listening to Christian music, reading books by Christians; all have helped me find peace within myself. I am working on loving detachment from my H and letting go of a particular outcome. This is a result of a long journey, but one that I do not regret embarking upon. Wish I hadn't had to have this as my catalyst, but honestly, most days I find peace and balance, even if my H is still being unfaithful. I can only say that until I got glimpses of this kind of life, I was a wreck. I now try to wait and see what will happen, what H will do. I wonder instead of worry. We can take care of ourselves, MK, and we will be happy, married or not. This is not the path we chose, but we will stay strong.

Every time I discover contact between H and OW I reiterate again that it is not tolerable in a M, that it must not continue. Two weeks ago, H called OW (has always been the other way around) and he actually told me about it and apologized. In the past, I would have just accepted it and gone on. It was painful, but I realized finally that this is ALL him, his responsibility, his sickness, his hurt that make him act this way, NOT me or anything I have done or am doing. So I don't accept any blame when he tries to rationalize. He has until tomorrow to write the NC letter and has agreed to get into MC with me.

This is YOUR life, your journey, your path. In your heart you know what is the right thing for you to do, or it will become apparent if you can just be still, feel the presence of God or spirit within you. You will act lovingly and kindly, but also strongly if need be for your H's behavior is harmful to EVERYONE. He is so lost he just can't get that, maybe not now, maybe not ever. But don't allow him to drag you down with him.

I have regrets in how I have handled this stuff, I wish I had all the answers. I just know I am doing the best I can. I am being true to myself. I balance the needs of my lost H with my needs, the needs of the M and my D. My D is only 2, but I asked H if he felt that he would be comfortable explaining his behavior to our D when she can understand? Would he want her to stay M to a H that was doing the things he is doing to me?

One thing my IC told me--you need to stop crossing the line and doing H's work for him. I think that might apply to you too. Let him take the consequences of his actions. I don't think the kids should be in the dark forever, they likely have an idea anyway. He is doing this, NOT you. He can not be trusted at this point to not see her, so don't grant that trust and badly wound yourself in the process.

I know I am rambling. I wish I could just have you with me here for a cup of tea. I would share with you some of the books that have helped me, most recently "Surviving Betrayal" by Alice May, listen to you, cry with you and offer you hugs.

I live in Colorado in a resort type area, so if you want to come here for a vacation, bring the kids, get away for some perspective, I sincerely invite you to do so.

You are not alone. Keep posting.

Marykat--
I have been away for a while. I have just read everything. I am so sorry that it has come to this. You have a tough desition to make. I agree with so much of what has been offered already. Some of my thoughts are this::

1)You deserve much more than you are getting.

2) You should not divorce until you have 20 years in. Sad to even have to talk about that, but it is an issue.

3) I believe your husband loves you and your family; but he loves himself more. He has all the attention on himself and HIS issues. In other words, his head is so far up his own a$$, he can't see daylight. (sorry)

4) I think, if I were you, I would ask him to get his own apt. He should be responsible for talking to the kids, but you should be there. I would tell him he can see them every other weekend---at his place. Let him have a taste of what it will be like without you. No meals. No sex. No conversation about this day/life/needs. No you. Double bills for two households.

He needs a 2x6, marykat. My prayers are with you. (Talk to your DD counselor first.) I hope she is doing better.
God Bless your family.
tsc

UPDATE for all who have advised me

The last few days have been intense. As of Thursday morning I had withdrawn from H trying to decide what to do. Which option to take. I asked him to sleep in the other bedroom absolutely no physical contact, little to no conversation. I took off my wedding ring. (He really didn't like that). I went to lunch with him Friday. He was questioning whether we could get a "real marriage back. Could he really love me again. Would he ever be able to give her up. He had the infamous line. "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."

He hasn't been telling me he loves me much lately. I asked whether he ended his conversations with her with an "I love you." His response was "yes". Ouch.

I told him I was waiting to speak with therapist for our D and if she suggested it might not damage D too much, I wanted him to move into his own apartment. I was planning to start with plan b and remain here. He agreed that he would move if I wanted him to leave. I don't think he realized what it would involve. NC on my part.

I also told him (heavens this is for you) that based on agreement from therapist for D that either he or I was going to tell the kids the real reason Dad was moving out. No just the "we need some space routine". He was not pleased about that. He said so "You get to be the hurt one and I still look like the bad guy." I told him that was pretty much correct. The reason our marriage is in crisis is because of his a.

Sat morning, D and I want shopping. We had a nice day out, had lunch. H had said he was going over to work on his car, wash and wax. He has a really cute '67 MGB. Red and in perfect condition. (Are we talking midlife crisis here) He was going to workout at the gym. All this is located at his office where I know he talks to her on the phone. I really didn't care. If he wanted to talk with her, oh well.

D and I arrived home around 4 pm. I was so angry coming home. I was realizing what it was going to be like here until next summer. I felt so isolated. Sure I had the kids to take care of and do things with. But that's not like having adult interaction. I was going to be taking classes online. Whoop! I don't have many friends here. The language barrier is tough and the few girls I do things with are other military wives whose husbands work with my husband. What was I going to on a Friday night when my kids were out with their friends and I'm at home.

I really began to ask why am I considering staying here. If I moved back to FL I had friends and family there. Screw him.

He called about 30 minutes after I got home. He had the MG out and it was a beautiful, hot, sunny day. (Something to be cherished in Germany) He asked if I would go for a ride with him. He wanted to talk. Basically I launched. I told him I was in a dreadful mood and would't be good company. I told him I hated it here. I was leaving. He couldn't committ to me and was in love with ow. Screw him, I'm out. I'm ready to move one with my life. I told him that if our S hadn't had one of his friends over I was ready to tell the kids what was happening.

He asked for me to please come with him. He needed to tell me something. I said fine, but prepare for me being in a really *((&^$#@ mood.

He told me that he had spent the last little bit telling the ow that he was never going to talk with her again. He wanted to really work on our M.

Remember he told me that is what he did when he saw her back at the end of June when they were together for a week. Apparently he had never told her he was ending it with her. Just me. I guess I'll believe anything. He told me I could call her to verify what he said. He said she was really upset. (Secret deep down feeling, too bad, good, I hope she's miserable)

Have considered calling her but I really don't want to talk with her. He says he will give me copies of all phone records, email passwords. I can check whatever I want.

He says he needs help. Will I please help him. He said he can't do it on his own. Remember this is the man who has always said, We can do this on our own.

He actually agreed and we have an appointment for Monday with Penny. (Save your marriage central)

This is getting long and I'm tired of typing. That's basically it. I'm cautiously optomistic.

One question.

Who's used drugs and which one's seem best with fewer side effects? I really think he could use them. This will be very hard for him. He's not sleeping.

Anne

Wow. I've often thought how much I'd like to be able to have a real conversation rather than computer based. It takes so much time typing all this. It would be sooooo nice to talk with someone face to face. Someone who's been there. I certainly appreciate your response. I wish you the best and hope for you and your H.

I'll be back.

Marykat

Marykat--
So glad to get an update! Sounds like to me that we are all right. he does love you. He just has loved himself more lately. You withdrew
from him. He chased. It's classic. (Same thing happened here.) Problem is, when you begin to respond, he may withdraw from you again.
Be careful. No need to play games. But be smart. Don't give too much of yourself away. let him do some work. When my husband finally desided to act like a husband instead of a teenager; I told him all I could promise was that I would allow him to "try". That I would not make him leave....yet. I never gave him anything other than that. I was not cruel. I was receptive to whatever he did, and responded in kind. But I stopped being the one to "do" everything. I think it helped both of us. I got to "rest" from all the work. And he got to feel like he was making up for all he had done.

Be careful.

1)Ithinkseparate bedroms is ok. Tell the kids he is snoring.

2 Do NOT call OW! She is of no value to you or your husband. She may lie. She may tell you things you don't want to or need to hear. Don't call her.

3)DO get access to all of his phone/computer stuff. Block her anyway you can.

4) HAve him read about NO Contact letters. Make sure he understands that this is not a "goodbye" letter. It is a letter that said what he and "they" have done is selfish, and he is committed FULLY to his wife and children. No appologies to her. Just "do not contact me, and I shall not contact you". HAve HIM write it, you approve it, and he can mail it in your presence.

5) get counselling. For you, for him, for y'all, and for your family. Especially your daughter. She is crying for attention and help. Ask what the theropist thinks about filling her in on some of what is going on. She is almost grown. Maybe she would do better if she felt like she wasn'tbeing lied to, or protected. Like she was part of a "unit" that needed her support and help. I'm not sure, because I am no therepist. I just think because of her age, that you can not completely hide this. Plus, she knows the history about her father/OW.

6) WELLBUTRIN!!!! Very good for depression. AND it does not interfer with ones libido or sexual performance. I started taking it last fall. I stopped and I cried everyday. So, I'm back on. It really has very few side effects. No weight gain either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I have heard that "Paxil" is another good one. But I do not know anything about that one.

Good luck to you, MK. Be smart. Be strong. Be firm in what you want and what you expect.

Take care of YOU. Take care of your sweet children. They deserve a father who will be a good role model. If Mr. MArykat proves to be worthy,......wonderful.
If not, then you know you gave him every chance to be a part of y'alls day to day life. It is his choice.

Keep posting. God Bless you.
tracey

Okay

6 hours past previous post. Panic mode has set in already. H is at his baseball game. It's a double header. I left at end of 1st game to come home and get dinner ready. Planning to go back to game in a few minutes.

When I walked in the house, the old brain started to spin-----

What time is it in CA? 7 am perfect time to call her. He has his cell phone. He could sit in the dugout and call her. Just to check on her. Right --- with all the other guys around.

Will I be able to endure the constant worry of him contacting her again. Okay in all probability the odds are that he will talk with her again. Maybe even a few times. Maybe he'll never actually stop.

It will be difficult. He can call from his office all day. He has a direct line to the US. There is no printed account of calls from that phone. He has a secure "as in top secret" email account. I can't check it or they'll have to shoot me. If he wants to talk to her basically I have no control. i know this but it still kills me.

TSC

I like your name. But, without the e.

You had some good advice. I have been the one to do the recovery work. He was too busy coming up with lies for me to keep from discovering the contact.

I need to step back and let him do more. I definatly have a problem jumping into recovery and wanting to fix everything immediately.

Thanks for the tip on Wellbutrin. I think FH said he used that as well, but I may be wrong.

We need to talk some more. He needs to know that this is his last time a bat.

Thanks all

marykat

marykat--

is "tracey" a trigger for you? Sorry if it is. I don't know too many "traceys" anymore. Most of my friends call me "Tray" anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ask your H what his plan is?

Don't fill in the blanks either. Ask him what he intends to do to? When he gets the blank stare look----tell him that he needs to figure this out or your family has no hope of staying together. Please do direct him on the No Contact stuff. In my oppinion, this is a must.

I'll keep checking on you.
much love
tray

marykat - take what tsc said as "gospel". I had much the same thing happen the night my wife moved out. It "forced the issue", if you will. She told me that she expected to feel "free" but actually felt the exact opposite during the 10 minute ride from our home to her apartment.

As for Welbutrin, yes that is what both my wife and I were on. If you have trouble getting it where you are stationed, try Zyban (used for stopping smoking). It's the same thing only Welbutrin usually costs less because it not being "used" for smoking cessation.

Now, for the fears and imaginings. They are real, strong and will be something you battle with a lot. I did anyway. I still do occasionally, but as time has passed and the "backsliding" of contact eventually slid into no contact as the withdrawals lost intensity, it has become much easier to believe and trust rather than worry and doubt.

Just brace yourself for this behavior to be a normal, albeit disgusting, part of the recovery process.

And while I mention recovery....perhaps you might want to migrate back over and have a "homecoming" with the rest of us on that board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lastly, a mint MGB (is it a GT) is very nice. Just wait until you two get further along the road of recovery and take it out for a spin! If at all possible, have it shipped back to the States when the tour is up.

God bless, and now is time to be in the Scripture daily and praying for yourself, your husband, and your children. You do know that there are others of us out here who are keeping you and yours in our prayers with God, don't you?

TSC


I like your idea of asking what his plan is. He needs to take responsibility and help establish a way out of this for us. I feel I've focused on rebuilfing for many months and he was just there. He was stuck deciding between the 2 of us. He may still be deciding.

He was quite upset last night. Our D spent a while on the phone with one of my friends from the States. She's a liscensed mental health therapist who deals specifically with kids. She gave us some good ideas to help with our D. I'm afraid DD may have a problem with clinical depression. That scares me to death as I watched my Mother suffer with it all her life. My friend suggested that DD might do well on antidepressants. Maybe I could get a group rate/appointment for all of us.

It's not a new concept but my H was very upset when my friend stated that part of DD problem was the sudden realization that our marriage was not what it appeared. DD thought everything was fine (as did I) when H announced June 2002 that he had ow and wanted a divorce.

He was very emotional and said he's having a hard time holding himself together.

It's like I have to keep being the strong one. I can do it for now, but at some point he's got to take over.

I'm glad we have our appointment with Penny tonight. Hopefully she will give him some guidance. I'm concerned for his stability now.

H said he had a dream last night where we were driving very fast on a dark road. I was driving and it was so dark we couldn't see where we were going. He kept telling me to slow down. Hmm.....

FH

The MG is a lot of fun. (a bit of a money pit). I'm not sure if it's a GT? I know it's a 63 MGB Roadster. We lived in the UK several years back. Our neighbor there worked for MG. He got an old shell and rebuilt it from scratch. It's perfect. We shipped it from the UK to FL and then over here. It'll go back with us.

Thanks for the advice on Welbutrin. I'm going to have to seriously look into it or something for both H and D. Are you still taking it? Any side effects when you stopped?

Thanks

Marykat

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: marykat ]</small>

FH

Forgot something.

I'll think I'll stay here just a little longer (GQ II). Don't want to jump the gun on this one.

I do appreciate yours and others thoughts and prayers. The support that I've received from you and others here is what has sustained me through all this.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Marykat

marykat - I was on Welbutrin for about 6 months, my wife much longer.

I stopped taking it when I reached the point that I thought that I could "deal" with highs and lows. Initially, after stopping the meds, I was a bit surprised at the swinging emotions, but they were nowhere as intense as they were initially after discovery.

Think of it like quitting smoking. The med helped deal with the cravings and emotional attachment, the habits of smoking. When the nicotine had been flushed from the system and new habits in dealing with stress had begun to replace the old habits of reaching for a cigarette, you can stop the medical assistance and rely on your "willpower" to complete the process. Oh sure, there may be occasional days when you get hit with a "craving" to smoke", but it is much easier at that time to tell yourself, "okay, I feel that way, but I don't have to act on it today."

Remember the idea is to have clear thinking that is not caught in the wildly swinging throes of emotional upheaval.

With respect to your daughter, if she is also suffering from depression, then a course of meds might be appropriate. Just make sure that the cause can't be handled by open, honest, discussions with her first. I don't like to medicate any problem unless needed, and then only for as sort a period of time as necessary.

God bless.

God bless.

Hi MaryKat,

I am so sorry you are having to contend with this situation yet again. I know what it feels like to be isolated in another country with no support. I live in England. If you want a friend with MB knowledge feel free to let me know. I do not have an email address that I feel comfortable to share online but we can think of something. At least if you needed someone to chat too I would be only an hour behind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do feel awful with your H's attitude and lack of commitment. Maybe you can not monitor your H's phone line but my guess is his boss can! Just a thought.

Marykat--
Good to hear from you. Keep at it. Don't give up, OR give in.

How is your daughter? After you meet with Penny, let us know. If your husband finds out that her depression has a lot to do with his mistakes and choises....he will feel enormous guilt. Don't let that guilt weigh him down to the point where he is paralyzed. Help him to see that this should motivate him even more to be the man God wants him to be.
God bless,
tray

Hello All

We didn't get to talk with Penny. My phones were acting up and wouldn't connect. We'll try again this evening. Very frustrating.

H is well into withdrawal. Thinks he's the only one who has ever had such intense emotions. He's gone into work for a few hours this morning. He's going to take leave for a few weeks and stay home. He wants to go into work a few times just to stay on top of email and messages so that when he gets back after 2 weeks there aren't a million things piled up. I understand the logic of this; however, his calls to her were from work. This is going to be very difficult for him just to go to work. How will he be able to sit in his office alone and it's so easy to call her.

Question?

Did your spouse know of your postings here at MB. My H doesn't. I don't think. I don't know that I want him to. I don't belive I've posted anything here that I haven't actually said to him, but I'm not sure of his reaction if he were to come across this. Don't know that I want him reading this.

I wish he would read a few pages of SAA or pages off MB. Maybe I could download some for him. I don't want to put too much pressure on him. I scared it would be easy for me to pile way too much on him. Read this book, do this questionair, look at this website. Somtimes I think I've spent too much time here and know too much.

I told him yesterday that I wanted him to start taking some responsibility for the"plan" for our recovery. It shouldn't be let just up to me. I feel like the cruise director.

Last night after our calls to Penny wouldn't go through he knew I was depressed. He snuck into the bathroom and ran a bath for us both. Candles and bubbles. That was nice.

Starting day 3 of withdrawal.

Thanks

MK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (small smile)

MK--

I know where you are. You are hoping that this time will be different. It's so hard. Hardest thing I've ever had to do. One of the hardest things for me to accept(still is) was that blocking his cell phone, monitoring his e-mail, seeing his every move was NOT going to keep him away from OW. Ultimately, it was all up to him. His character. His morals. His strenghth to fight his desire for her. Sad thing was, I didn't trust any of those things...and rightly so.
So I was left to cling to the only things I could trust, which were the cell phone, the computer, time accountablity...etc. And thats were you are now. When you feel that there is opportunity for him to betray you, he will. At least that is our fear, right? Nothing I say will give you the magic to get over this part quicker or without as much pain. (Although I highly reccomend some anti-ds) Your husbands actions have left you with few good choices. Again, it is so hard. And I feel for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
You must find it in you to encourage him, and support his "sacrifice". Because that is how he sees it right now. It will be hard for him to live without her for a while, but not as hard as living without his family. Not as hard as looking his kids in the eye and explaining how and why he broke every promise he made to you, to them and to God. Tell him you KNOW that he is better than all of this uglyness. ANd try really hard to believe it yourself. YOU can NOT make him better. Only he can do that. You just have to try to stand beside him, and take those steps with him, not for him.

Hope things are ok with your daughter.
God Bless
tracey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You just have to try to stand beside him, and take those steps with him, not for him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tracey and tracy - a rather good description of what a "help meet" is according to biblical principles. Bravo! Great advice!

Tsc and FH

What a timely post for me. This is one of the hardest parts for me. Telephone monitor. You're so right that ultimately it's up to him whether he calls her or not.

He's at baseball practice now and it was all I could do not to hide the cell phone before he left.

I have to drive 2 hours to take our S to the orthodonist tomorrow. H is on leave and doesn't really want to go with us. I'm not just thrilled about it either. I asked what he'd do without us here and he's at home all day alone. He said he'd go or I'd have a fit.

I haven't been as supportive as I maybe should have. I guess I've been deceived so much I'm positive it will happen again.

One thing is that yesterday he didn't seem that depressed. Does that mean he's talked to her? It's unreal that I'm disappointed that H isn't as unhappy as I think he should be. He says he can do this without drugs.

Our D seems better and a little more like her regular self. She's ready for school to start. We went for a long walk today and picked blackberries. I'm still giving it time regarding meds for her as well. I watched my Mom suffer severe depression her entire life and all the drugs. I never took Anti -D based on those issues I had with her. I have a hard time taking an aspirin.

I came up this morning and got online to check MB. I usually do this when H is at work. He doesn't know that I visit this forum. He's unaware of the support that I receive here.

Should I tell him? I'm not really keeping it a secret, but I'm not ready for him to read any of my postings here. Again nothing I've posted would be news to him, but they are a little private and perhaps not quite as sugar coated as I would put things for him. Opinions?

Tray

I'm going to go back and imprint some of your words from your last post regarding supporting him and not doing it for him. I forget how hard this is for him. I just want him to do it overnight.

Thanks

MK

marykat - my feeling would be "No" to informing him about MB. Right now it is functioning as a sort of pseudo-IC for you and you should view it that way....Individual.

There may come a time in the future when he would benefit from the site, but for now stick to talks, using the principles you have learned, providing him with reading material if appropriate. Just don't try to "force" reading on him if he is not ready for it himself.

I can only tell you my personal experience and that is that my wife does not visit here and has read very little of the books and information that I have read. But they have helped me to know what to do and what to say or not say. Our biggest help is our daily devotional time together most mornings and attending church together.

God bless.

MK-
I agree with FH. This is your place now. It would benefit him, but only when he is ready. He is not ready yet.
I would start with asking him to flip through parts of SAA, Torn Assunder, or HNHN.
Maybe that would help.

Best of luck to you. And LOTS of love!!!

tray

I'm still here. We're doing okay. No relationship/A talk for 2 days. I figured we needed a break just to enjoy each other. We have plans to celebrate a friends birthday tonight. Should be fun.

I think you're right about not telling him about MB forum just yet. If he asks specifically, of course I'll tell him. It is true that I use it for IC now. I don't know what I would have done without all of you.

"They're coming to take me away, Ha Ha"

He had to go into the office this morning for a meeting. I sure hope his fingers didn't do the dialing.

My lastest question of the day.

TSC is know you said not to contact ow. I'm not planning to right now but here's what I'm thinking.

I sure wish I had called her as he was on the plane flying from states back here last month. Wouldn't it have been interesting to hear her reaction to the fact that he told me he saw her to say it's over when of course he never did that.

What's he telling her that's not inline with what he tells me. Obviously he's been stringing her along as well.

I would like to tell her how seriously committed I am to this marriage. I'm not going anywhere without a fight. A big one.

Sure she could tell me a pile of lies. I wouldn't be looking for "tell me what happened on this particular day", not even "has he called you in the last week". I would just like her to know where I stand and that he has told me that he told her he wouldn't be calling her anymore.

Rather than call I could send an email.

I've told H that I still have doubts that he actually told her goodbye based on his history. He seems sincere, but I've sure been fooled before.

Also, if he really told her NC. I have no desire to give her a reason to contact him and no desire to hurt her further.

Opinions?

Thanks

MK

Yes.

And standing on the tracks yelling at the noisy train that keeps interrupting your peace and calm will make you feel better for a while, especially when you promise it that you will fight it for your peace of mind and peace and quiet in your life.

That is....right up until the time it reaches you and reality intrudes.

You can't change her or your husband. You can influence all you want or can, but ultimately it is your husband that needs to "move away from the tracks" permanently to restore the peace and calm.

As long as the train keeps passing by, the "noise" will continue despite any pleadins, or rantings, you might feel inclined to indulge.

Right now, it's a little less noisy with her shunted to a "spur" (half way around the world) but the noise still creeps in every now and then. Hubby needs to move the house away from all the tracks and leave her to the other trains.

MaryKat,
Reading your posts brings back alot of memories for me. I can sit here and feel the tension you must be feeling 24hrs a day.

No, I would not tell him about MB. This is your outlet and support system right now. He needs counseling by a therapist.

There are lots of signs, if you really look, for them to know if he is calling OW or not. One is that his mood changes from depressed to happy.
Thats how I knew that my EX was up to something. The withdrawel is hell for them its like going off drugs and it just depends on how strong they really are and if he is in mid-life crisis they don't have alot of strength.

I would look up as much information about mid-life crisis as you could. It really helps you to understand how the whole thing works. My EX had classic MLC.

I know you feel that you are on a fine line right now. You don't want to push him but yet you need to know if he is contacting her. Drives you crazy don't it. Just watch him closely, if he is contacting her again you will be able to tell.

Don't nurture him to much. I did that and well it just gave him the feeling that I would be there to take care of him and love him no matter what he did. You can planA without nurturing to much.

By my experience if I had to do it all over again I would have never let my ex come back after the first affair until I was certain he was over her. Having to live with him through withdrawel was hell for all of us. I still say he needs time alone to figure out what he really wants. Also you need time alone to heal and grow. I also had never lived alone until he left. You know what? I did great! Your kids will understand believe me.

You need to do what you feel is best all we can do here is give you suggestions. Just always remember you did not cause this, you did not ask for this and you should not punish yourself by living unhappily.

Take Care,

Jill

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: jillybean36 ]</small>

MK-- Glad you have had a couple of days peace.
It's nice, huh??!!

As for your question about contacting the OW. I still say "no".
Believe me, I understand wanting to do this. I had my reasons too. I SUFFERED through for weeks until I didn't want to anymore. It was hard, girl.
Getting info from HER isn't going to repair your marriage. It won't make you feel better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What's he telling her that's not inline with what he tells me. Obviously he's been stringing her along as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who cares about her?? She dated a married man. Let her sit in the hole she helped dig.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would like to tell her how seriously committed I am to this marriage. I'm not going anywhere without a fight </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, she knows.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would just like her to know where I stand and that he has told me that he told her he wouldn't be calling her anymore. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've told H that I still have doubts that he actually told her goodbye based on his history. He seems sincere, but I've sure been fooled before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And talking to her probably won't help make you feel better either. He has committed to NC. It is for you too. I would feel better about you contacting her if you just wanted to spit on her. (sorry, thats harsh). BUT for you to tell her anything, or ask her anything...I think it is a bad plan. She has no ability to help your marraige at all. AND contacting her, could make her call your husband.
Wait this out. It's too new. If a month or two from now you still have the need....we'll talk again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a nice weekend!! much love
tracey

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: tsc ]</small>

MK
Just a quick opinion. don't call the OW. I did that several times. It was like talking to a wall. She had a rationalization for everything that she did. Then she would call H and he would get upset with me for stirring things up. At one point she called ME psycho because I called her at work. Wonder why she didn't see anyting wrong with using the work phone to talk to him, but talking to me was just so unprofessional? Whatever.

You are wasting time, effort and your own dignity there. The speeding train analogy is perfect.

Just don't. Hang in there on your H contacting her. He is going to do it until the pain of continuing it is greater than the pain of stopping it and only HE can control that. This is the hardest time of all for me. Waiting to see what H is going to do. Trusting in the almighty that I will be OK no matter what happens, M or not. This is my lesson and I am still learning it. You are doing so great. Keep on the straight and narrow.

And keep MB to yourself for now.
Hugs.,
Anne

MaryKat,

I agree don't call OW. All it will do is to upset you and let her know you are desperate. You don't need that. Remember to alot of OP (not all) this turns into a game. They enjoy being able to steal our spouses away and after they have them for awhile its over. I've seen it alot.

Jill

Thanks everbody

I don't have much time to reply, but will get back later.

Really think H has called. He seems too okay. Staying on the treadmill for now.

You're all right about me contacting her. She isn't worth my breath.

Marykat

I want to do a quick (yeah right) for all. It's had to post with H this week on leave. He's starting to wonder what I'm doing on the computer. Maybe he thinks I'm in an internet A. Too funny!

This weekend I've been concerned that H has called ow. He's seemed too okay. He's said there's been NC. Only they know.

Sunday morning he seemed preoccupied and a little down. I've never been so happy to see him unhappy. That afternoon we drove over to a little village on one of the wine roads here. We did a few tastings, bought a bottle of wine and sat outside. After a little wine, he said yesterday was a hard day for him. He didn't say specifically why. It's been 8 days since he told her NC. He told me he received an email from her last week. She requested that he not call again. She wants to move on. He said it was short just 5 sentences or so. He said he didn't respond.

Who knows what's really going on. Maybe he's called, maybe there's been mail.

I've decided not to nag and ask more about it. I didn't demand to see the email. I reminded him that ultimately the success/failure of our M is up to him based on him completely ending it with her.

I told him that he seemed to be doing okay. It was only Sunday that I could tell he seemed stressed. He said he's been a basket case and it's been hard. He's wanted to call and has actually dialed the number and hung up.

Day by day. I hope he's able to get through this. Time............ Hope I'm not being suckered again.

MK

MK - one word, Withdrawal. It sounds like classic withdrawal symptoms that will get worse before they get better.

That he is even telling you about the email and his aborted attempts to dial is very positive. He is acknowledging his weakness and trusting you enough to tell you something that he knows you will not like. Your response is critical to keeping him opening up to you.

So when you feel the need to scream, do it here. You are getting what you want, even though going through the process is painful to you also. But remain calm and supportive. Reinforce the new communication "safety zone" and his ability to say something that might be painful to you.

God bless. Stay the course.

MK,

Hi. Am back. Went to the beach with family for a week. Then, my sister was here for a few days and couldn't really do much but lurk. Did read what has been going on, though. You have been in my prayers. Are things still progressing?

What is going on now? I wish you would go to recovery. There are lots of people to help you over there. I know you don't think you should be there, but if he is willing to work on the M, and you are, then you do have recovery, right? Just worried that you might get kind of lost over here.

Think it over, OK?

Heavens

MK - how are you doing?

Marykat????????????

How are you?

tracey

Wow everybody, Thanks for checking on me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm doing okay. It's still a little hard to post with kids and H at home all day. Don't want the kids or H reading over my shoulder. With only one computer someone else always wants on. Kids and H go back to school/work next week.

Think I'll take Heavens and FH advice and move back over to recovery. Maybe it's early, but why not?

Don't know if H has contacted/heard from ow. I haven't asked and he hasn't volunteered anything. I've spent the last 2 days pushing down the anger and wondering why I'm still here. Why am I trying to save something he didn't thinkk was anything special. I'm trying not to vent. But doesn't he need to know how angry I still am.

Have to be short.

Look for me next week on recovery board.

Thanks all

MK

Yea, she is back.

Vent away, that is what MB is for. Let it all out. Yes, why shouldn't he see how hurt you are? Just be careful with the LB's bc then he won't talk or open up to you if he doesn't feel safe and that he will get beat up all the time.

One thing my MC had to beat ME over the head with was to "allow" myself to BE vulnerable. To feel and show him my feelings. I had gotten very good at hiding them. Except the anger. That was all I felt safe revealing to FWH so he saw me as angry all the time (set up his unhappiness factor that lead to the A). It is a fine line, you are hurt, but you don't want to be a punishing, angry b**** all the time, shoving him out the door. Communication is one of the biggest lessons that I have learned on this board. HOW to communicate to my H.

Figured you had the others around. Me too. I have to take a number to get on my computer. Can't wait until they start school. YEAH. Hubby is out of town this weekend and I even got on the Ladies chat last night. That was fun. Chatted with HelenWheels and Calypso. It was a first for me.

MK, just think you'll get more support over there. Even if you feel as though you are in a tentative recovery right now, if he says he wants to stay and you want the M, technically, that is recovery, I think. I know, let's go and debate it over on REcovery. LOL.

Will be looking for you. Your spirits sound good. Take care of YOU . Most important thing. God bless.

Heavens

nice to hear back form oyu girl!

See you on recovery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tracey