Just wanted to say hello! You asked how Sifted and I were doing on another post earlier. I thought I'd let you know, doing pretty good! I've been feeling really pleasant and positive this week. I think the more time my H and I get to spend together, the better I feel. <P>Did you read that I saw XOM on the road last week (close up)? It hardly even phased me! I felt a little sad, but not heart broken or devastated! I felt so proud of myself! Still occassionally wonder how he's doing, but it's not consuming me. It seems to be certain times of the month that I dwell on him, and I haven't figured out which times those are yet! Otherwise, I'm doing great--knock on wood. I say that now, then later I get depressed! <P>One possible (small) obstacle coming up, though. Thought I'd get your opinion. My H is going to start working nights again. Just 3 days on, 3 days off 2pm to 2am. This may give way to a little temptation (meaning telephone calls). I think I'm strong enough <BR>to handle this, do you? Actually, lately when he's not home at night, I usually spend time here on MB. It has become a lifeline for me, too. I guess if I think about XOM, I can just hop online and come here! Good idea, huh?! It was just something to think about. <P>How are you doing? Everything going alright? Let me know how you are.<P>

Hi Momma...<BR>I'm so proud of you...you sound like you're doing very well. How long has it been since you and XOM communicated? <P>I'm having some good some bad days. I so wish my husband and I could connect. He's a great guy. <BR>Did you struggle with that too? That feeling like you weren't close with your husband and don't know how to learn to be. We've never really bonded in an intense way. He's a great guy, but not very deep or intense on an emotional level. I'm still trying to learn how to experience that with him. <BR>

Hi Wings and Momma!<P>Your posts were encouraging. Nice to know you are having some good days, staying the course and feeling stronger. I have good moments also, especially enjoying my children. But, I had a few setbacks (few phone calls), so now I guess I have to start all over again. I was thinking today that each day is full of hundreds of times of saying "No" to those urges to contact. You might say "No" 99 times, but then one time give in and you start all over again. Sigh.<P>Of course, there are no excuses, but my situation might be a little like yours, Wings, (especially what you wrote: "We've never really bonded in an intense way. He's a great guy, but not very deep or intense on an emotional level. I'm still trying to learn how to experience that with him"). So, that makes it hard. My husband is trying, but I'm not sure we will be able to relate in a deeper way that I desire ( a lot of this may just be personalities). It is much like some on these boards who wish their spouses were more passionate in a sexual way. They can express that to their spouse and their spouse may even want to try to fill that need, but may always be somewhat limited just because of their personality and make-up.<P>Which brings me to a topic I have been thinking about. The EN questionaire is helpful, but it doesn't mean your spouse will be able to fill your most important ENs at the intensity you desire. Certainly one can try to learn and stretch in those areas, but a "non-verbal" person (for example) just won't be able to speak as eloquently/clearly as one who is very verbally adept. Some people are deep thinkers and some simply are not (difference between "breath" and "depth" in the personalities).I am not making a judgement on either type, simply stating that the differences do exist. There comes a point, where we each have to accept those limitations (which we all have in different areas) and be willing to receive whatever our spouse can give. I guess that is where trust comes in, that GOD knows what we need and will provide it in His own righteous way.<P>Anyway, each of you encourage me with your determination and perseverance. Press on!<P>------------------<BR>"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

Hi Sifted...<P>Good to hear from you too! <BR>Yes...our situations do sound quite alike! You mentioned the "99" times you say no to that call...or email..then bam...the last time you cave. Boy do I understand that. How long since the two of you "ended" it? What's the longest amount of time you've not communicated with OM? <P>It's hard for me because I run into OM at the university. But we just say "hi" and small talk. Thankfully, it's only a few days a week. But it's still awkward because he wants us to be still be friends. <P>You also bring up a very interesting point about the lack of passion. I keep trying to explain that to my H, but he isn't getting it. Still doesn't understand my need for that. <P>So, Sifted, did you post your story somewhere in this forum? I'd like to know more if you care to share. <BR>Thanks...and again, thanks for you willingness to share so much of your thoughts with all of us. You and NoMas have a gift of writing with such passion. <P><p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 15, 2000).]

Hi, Wings & Sifted!!<P>It's great to hear you're hanging in there! I feel close to you guys, because your situations are so similar to mine. It's amazing! I think God puts certain people in your life for a reason.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:<BR><B> I was thinking today that each day is full of hundreds of times of saying "No" to those urges to contact. You might say "No" 99 times, but then one time give in and you start all over again. Sigh. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are SO right, Sifted! I've been fighting that off and on for quite some time. I've been so happy w/myself when I don't give in. It's been 2 mos. since the last time I spoke w/XOM. That's only because he called me. It was very brief and not too painful. But, I haven't initiated anything for 2 1/2 mos. now. It's strange, because some days I'll be fine and not think about him too much. Then, some days I would like so much just to talk to him, just to hear his voice. But the second I did, it'd start all over again, and I'd be back in the same position I was before. Like I told NoMas in a post earlier, I'm staying off that fence! I have to, to stay sane! <P>Wings, I don't know how you handle seeing XOM a few times a week! I couldn't handle that. I see XOM occassionally, usually just on the road, and that's enough to deal with. I can't imagine actually seeing him and making small talk! That hurts me for you!!! I think you're doing really well, and it sounds like you're staying strong! It's not possible for me to be friends w/XOM because that's what started it all and it would just start it all again! Do you feel that way, too?<P>As far as my H, we were VERY young when we got married. I got pregnant, then we married a year later. We waited because I was young and I wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. I still think we got married too young, though! When we were younger, I thought we had so much in common. I guess because we were in high school. But as we've grown older, we aren't much alike at all!! We favor different things, etc. He's not deep, either, but we are connecting. It's different, I can't explain it. When I first ended the affair, that is something I really struggled with, becuase I connected to XOM so deeply, as well as him w/me. I think that's one reason why you convince yourself that maybe you should be w/OP. In some strange way, I felt I was "meant to be w/OM", even though I should be w/my H. Can you guys relate to that? I now know I really should be w/my H, but it took a lot of time and work to realize that.<P>Sifted, I agree when you said that a H can't always fulfill EN at the intensity you desire. I struggled w/that, too. But maybe give it some time, and maybe it can be met. I'm not telling you to "settle", but maybe compromise? At first, I felt like I was "settling" because I wasn't letting my H meet my needs (because OM did so well!). Now I know that I'm not settling, they were just two different people. My H is giving me what I need, if I let him. I hope you don't take that the wrong way, because it may be more extreme for you guys. <P>Well, I'd better end this book I've typed. It's taken me long enough! Sorry! But, it does help to share my feelings.<P>Thanks for being here and sharing, you two! You don't know how it is helping me!!! <P><BR>

Hi again to both of you! You truly are encouragers to me and I do believe God brings along those we need at just the right time - that has happened to me many times. So, I'm glad for the two of you right now.<P>I haven't learned how to do the quotes yet, so I'll do it this way:<P>"He's not deep, either, but we are connecting. It's different, I can't explain it. When I first ended the affair, that is something I really struggled with, becuase I connected to XOM so deeply, as well as him w/me. At first, I felt like I was "settling" because I wasn't letting my H meet my needs (because OM did so well!)."<P>I totally identify with all of the above. That is what makes it so hard, even scary to let go. My "friend" was able to match/encourage so many things in me that my husband just couldn't identify with and often resisted. My OM met ALL of my top needs and my husband met none of them. Now my husband would like to try and he is looking into why he isolated himself so much and couldn't give. So, I should be thankful for that (and I am). But, to borrow NoMas' analogy of the arrow, there is still an arrow deep inside that has to be extracted and it is a very painful process. There is a lot of loss and death that goes with it. There is also the fear that the spouse cannot really meet those needs as deeply as you'd like. That is the part which will require acceptance (not really settling and maybe not even compromise). I will have to let go and see what can be re-built, most likely in a very different way than I imagine. I have confidence when I keep my eyes on the Master Builder (God), He always knows what He is doing (and it is often much different than I am expecting, but also much better).<P>"Behold, I will do something new, <BR>Now it will spring forth;<BR>Will you not be aware of it?<BR>I will even make a roadway in the wilderness,<BR>Rivers in the desert" Isaiah 43:19<P>That is a good promise of something new God can do in our marriages and relationships. Still the wilderness/desert is scary and that is where I've been in my marriage for a long time and is what I initially turn back to, with the hope of a roadway/river being made.<P>Wings, you asked a lot of questions. I don't have my story posted anywhere, maybe it will come out in bits and pieces. Here are a few answers: The longest I went without having contact with the OM was one month, but that was partly because of vacations we each took. I remember reading somewhere here that you have to WANT to break it off and in a way we are both (OM and I) in agreement with that (maybe not "want to" in the sense of desire/wish, but "want to" more like intentionally choosing it because it is the right/best way to go). I feel like that is a big step. Like I said, we have had a few failed attempts, but there is the determination and decision so I know it will happen. <P>I am fortunate because my world and the OMs worlds don't naturally mix (don't work at same place, not same church, neighborhood, friends, etc). The one place we originally met (the gym) I quit half a year ago. We are used to A LOT of conversation, sharing about our days/thoughts and so on. That is hard to let go because my husband doesn't have a great need for that kind of sharing and I really do. But like I said, first the wilderness, then a roadway.<P>Momma, I agree with what you said about "knowing that you aren't settling, just two different people" - I believe it. Right now it just sometimes feels like you can't breathe while you are waiting for that different person (your husband) to emerge. Kind of like NoMas' analogy of the Poseidon Adventure (going under water to get to the other side, which was the only way to save your life).<P>If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them. I just don't know how to begin to tell a whole story. Keep up your encouraging stories about the "other side". I appreciate it!

From what I've read, you still have a relationship w/OM, is that right? You're not ready to end it yet, right? Just clarifying. I know how hard it is, believe me! Does your H know about OM? <P>Well, I wanted to respond to your comment about waiting for your H to "emerge". Honestly, he may never completely "emerge" to your desire. That's where that acceptance has to come in. You are right about the acceptance rather than settling or compromising. That's the word I was trying to use, compromising doesn't really explain it. I know my H tries his hardest to meet all my needs, but he doesn't always do it as well as the XOM did. That's where I have to look at how hard he's trying, and accept the person that God has given me, instead of trying to be w/someone else. I'm just saying this looking at myself. I don't know if that helps you any, just some ideas. I guess we just have to get past the things the OM does for us(or feelings that are there), so that we can move on in our marriages. Like I said before, some days I want so badly to talk to XOM and sometimes I miss him so much, but I know what I have to lose. The bad out weighs the good, and that makes me know what I have to do.<P>I hope things get better for you, and that you get through this without losing your sanity! I really thought I was losing it several times! I'm here for you if you need anything.......please take care!!<BR>

Hi Momma,<P>Thanks for your concern. I don't always have time to reply right away, and other times I just read, not knowing what to write.<P>I am having a very hard time, today especiallly. The OM and I are breaking all contact (we did this twice already, but something got us in contact again). This time I don't see that happening. So, it has only been a few days. This time seems hardest of all. <P>It is like going from sunshine to a dreary, cold, gray day (which by the way is the weather we're having today). My husband knows there was an OM, but he doesn't know I've had recent contact and since he doesn't read much or look on these boards he isn't really aware of withdrawal or things like that. Seems unfair to tell him about my hurt anyway. I've never really been able to look to him for support so I can't see turning to him now. There are many painful realizations about our relationship that I've kind of known, but now see for sure. It seems easier to just run and "start all over", which is what I guess a lot of people do these days , but I know that isn't right or really any easier. I am learning what the word committment really means (and those vows "for better or for worse"). <P>All I can keep thinking is "what a mess" and I wish I was already on the "other side" of this. There is a lot of hard work to do and lots of pain to deal with. Sigh.<P>I appreciate your encouragement and perspective whenever you can give it.<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 18, 2000).]

Hang in there, Sifted. I know how much you're hurting, and it does get easier, it just takes so much time. Right now, you just need to work on getting through your withdrawal, because that's the hardest part. Whatever you do, don't give in to any temptation. I have to tell myself that constantly! Then, you need to work on building your marriage back and getting those feelings back you had for H. I agree w/your "what a mess" statement!!! I understand completely! That's why I try my hardest to stay out of that mess! It does make life so much more difficult. My thoughts and prayers are with you!! Keep on truckin'!!! <P>

Hi Momma and Sifted....<BR>Sifted...I'm so sorry to know you're going going through the same reality as I am. It's so painful, isn't it. The OM and I keep staying away, then one or the other of us makes contact, and it starts all over. We've tried ending it several times as well. I, much like you, know that I have to end it for good. No emails, phone or any contact. So, how do you do this? How did you handle it, Sifted? <P>I'm in an awful lot of pain today as well. Only those of us in the middle of this can understand the pain. I feel your pain too sifted. It's so much more difficult to end it permanently than I ever imagined. Everyone keeps writing about no contact...and I know they're absolutely right. <P>Please keep in touch with Momma and I, Sifted...I'd like to know how you're doing as we're both going through this process at the same time. Perhaps we can lean on one another for support, strength and encouragement. I certainly can't explain this pain to my H. He has no idea the struggle is so deep with OM. <P><BR>Momma, you have been such an inspiration to me. How have you been able to let go of OM? You are always such a bright light and an encourager to those of us struggling. Thank you for being there for all of us.<BR>Thanks, both of you, for your open hearts....<P>Did either of you feel depressed, anxious, and unable to sleep? If so, how have you handled that? <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 18, 2000).]

Hi Momma and Wings!<P>So good to read your replies this morning. The day is starting out very hard again. I feel like I'm being tossed about in the ocean, big waves crashing over me. I guess this is partly how people feel when someone close has died. It is the feeling of great loss.<P>Yesterday afternoon got a little better for me. The sun came out and I worked in my garden for several hours and some of the heavy pain lifted. But it is back again and I realize now that is how it will be, moments of heavy, pressing pain and then moments when it lifts for awhile.<P>I listen to my Christian CDs to help me. When I keep my mind focused in that way I do better, it is when I start thinking back on things and the loss that I get overwhelmed. I talk to God because I know He understands completely. I tell Him about my loss and my hurts and I know He listens and cares, that brings comfort too.<P>I did talk to my husband a little yesterday afternoon and this morning, just telling him there are other pains I have inside that he doesn't realize or understand and that I am experiencing a lot of loss, in addition to dealing with the hurts he and I have in building our relationship. I wanted to remove our barriers a little more, let him know more of my struggles and also explain that this pain affects my behavior sometimes (especially anger and hostility towards him). It is hard because I know I have to be gentle in how to let him into my world of pain, he has his own hurts from all of this. <P>Wings, you might try sharing with your husband just that you have lots of pains and losses inside of you, without being too specific. Does he know about the OM? <P>The hardest part for me is the great loss I feel. When I look at it like a death I seem to be able to cope with the pain a little better, because I know this is how it should feel with a death. Resisting the temptation, though, seems to take the most determination and discipline and I get tired and afraid I won't keep the course. Especially when I hear people still struggle after months (like 6 or more). Any suggestions Momma?<P>Let's pray for each other. Let me know how you are each doing.

Hi, Sifted & Wings!!<P>Well, you two don't know how much you're an encouragement to me!!! I'm glad I can encourage you as well. For some reason (knock on wood), I've been doing really well lately! I don't know if I'm finally getting over XOM or if I'm just in another one of my phases. I've been like you two and have had contact on & off and on & off and on & off again. There for a few months it was constantly that way. If you'll do a search on my name, you can read some of my posts dealing w/my confusion. I started posting at the end of May. Since I've been here on MB, I have NOT made contact w/XOM. So, you can read my wishy-washy feelings I've been typing. Even though I've been so tempted, I still haven't contacted him. Like I've said before, I have my moments when I miss him sooo much. And I keep saying I know what I have to lose, that's what keeps me going. That IS what keeps me going. My marriage is so much better now that I can't risk losing my family. Maybe as your marriages get stronger, your feelings for OM will diminish. <P>Sifted you said:<BR>"Resisting the temptation, though, seems to take the most determination and discipline and I get tired and afraid I won't keep the course. Especially when I hear people still struggle after months (like 6 or more)."<P>You're right about keeping up the course. I'm down 2 1/2 mos. now w/out contact, but I could talk to him tomorrow, and I'm back to square 1. I've made the decision that I don't WANT to be back on square 1. Sometimes, I do WANT to talk to OM, but I remember that I DON'T want to be on that square 1 again. Does that make sense? It does take SO long! My question is, if he contacts me and I tell him I can't talk to him, does that put me back at square 1? In a way it does, but if I resist him, it's not really the same "square 1". Know what I mean? <P>It must be in the air today to be feeling down. I'm not in pain, but kinda sad. I try to think about the negative things about XOM, instead of the good memories. I also try to focus more on my H, he really is a great guy, even if we are different. I really do love my H very much. They are just two TOTALLY different people, so I think XOM filled some places my H didn't. I've been working on letting my H fill every place possible. That's where that acceptance comes in that we were talking about earlier. Some days my H and I will fight like cats & dogs, then others not at all. We definitely have more passion than we did. That's a good thing! <P>Wings, You asked how have I been able to let go of OM? It's just taking time. I'm still not completely "over" him, but I'm doing much better, and it doesn't hurt so bad. I had to let go when I made my decision to absolutely stay w/my H. I refer to that so often because it was a major turning point for me. It came to the point where I HAD to chose to be w/OM or my H. I chose my H. I don't want to sound redundant, I just want to stress what helps me. <P>Also, Wings, I was really depressed for a long time through out this. I really couldn't define it, but it was a really crappy attitude/outlook on life. Sometimes, I still feel like I'm in some time of depression, because I'm so moody. That's getting better, somewhat. I never had trouble sleeping, though, thank goodness. I'm always too tired, I don't get enough sleep! I started taking St. John's Wort, but I didn't take it long enough. Someone here on MB said it takes about 3 weeks to kick in. So, I'm thinking about trying it again. It just helps when my attitude is better. <P>Oh, also, I asked you guys earlier about my H going to work nights again. Do you have any comments/suggestions about that?<p>[This message has been edited by momma (edited June 19, 2000).]

It's me again!! I was just reading through all our comments on this particular post. I know you've both said that you try to end it, then end up starting contact again. Have either of you hit this "turning point" I'm referring to of choosing one or the other? I guess it's not real encouraging for me if you have reached that point and then you end up contacting OM again. But, I'm just curious. I'm wondering if this is something that we can truly get past. Will it just take time? I know you guys have the same question. Just rambling..........<BR>Just wondering today how XOM is doing and it drives me crazy. I still think about him everyday, even if it's something negative. See, I do it, too! It really stinks sometimes!! <P>Thanks for letting me bare my heart and soul!

I hope you don't mind, stepping in on your thread, but I wanted to thank you. The reason is because (my h had the affair and it has been 4 months since contact, he is in withdrawal, but it is getting better.) it explains how the ow is feeling. She showed up recently at the same place my h did and she knew he would be there (because he works out almost everyday at the same place and did so during the affair). She is pregnant by her husband, and she is in withdrawal as well. It hurt to see her there at the same place as my h, but he did really good. In fact it effect me more than him. <P>Thanks,<BR>BH<P>

One last time, today!! (Maybe!) <P>I know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Actually, I don't know why I'm even asking, just thinking too much today. Can you still be friends w/OM, even after affair? Sometimes, I think it'd be nice just to be friends w/him so I could talk to him occassionally and know how he's doing, etc. Becuase he was my friend. But I know your supposed to eliminate ALL contact forever, w/XOM. Besides, my H HATES XOM and would probably do bodily harm to him if he could get away w/it. LOL Guess I'm just missing him today. <P>Oh, I was also going to ask were your guys's affairs just emotional or physical, too? Just wondering!<P>Guess I should be working instead of typing here! Hope to hear from you two soon!<BR>

Hi, Bighope!<P>Well, I hope we're not discouraging you, hope it's helpful for you. I know we've been helping each other so much. Maybe it helps you to see what he's possibly going through, all though it may hurt. Also, like you said, maybe understand her point of view, too. The XOM (I almost put my XOM, but changed it to the XOM, yikes) in my situation is not married. I'm not sure about the other two. That makes it a little different for me, but not much! Sometimes, women take much harder than men. So, maybe your H is through the hard part.<P>I'm glad you're here, and I hope you're doing okay through all this. It affects SO many! I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. <P>

Sifted and Wings,<P>Guess I told a fib about being the last time I'd bug you guys today!!! <P>Just wanted to let you know you can <BR>e-mail anytime at: w_m3@hotmail.com (if you want to). Have a great day!!!

Sifted and Wings,<BR>Guess I told a fib about being the last time I'd bug you guys today!!! <P>Just wanted to let you know you can <BR>e-mail anytime at: w_m3@hotmail.com (if you want to). Have a great day!!! <BR>

hi

Hi Momma,<P>I'll reply later when I have time. It does feel good to "talk" about it. It is the kind of thing you hold inside a long time, not really a struggle which seems acceptable that you can talk to others about.<P>Until later...

Momma:<P>You aren't discouraging me, it helps to understand the other side as well. I have been concerned about contact and it has happened. I was just curious about the emotions it makes one feel. It is hard for anyone no matter what side of the affair you are on. <P>You asked if we are married and yes we are. I am doing ok for the most part I have bad days as well. We are working on making our marriage better then before. Time & patience is the key for everyone. <P>I appreciate your help.<P>BH

Sorry my posts are messed up. For some reason, it's not updating, and the only way I can read other replies is if I go to "post reply" at the bottom of screen. I don't know what the deal is. They're probably tired of me posting so much today! <P>

Momma:<P>Explain something for me, why would OW go to the same place when she knows my h is there and yet she is pregnant by her h? <P>This hurts a lot and I am not use to any contact and since it has been four months, I don't get it.<P>BH

Hi Momma, Sifted, and Bighope...<P>Momma...thanks again for your insight. You must be one incredibly strong woman! I love your question...you must have been reading my mind about the "friendship question." My OM and I thought we could be friends, we actually parted ways saying we still very much wanted to be friends. We've tried, but it's really hard. That's the key to this entire problem....because contact is made when you're friends. On one hand, yes it's been nice being on a platonic, friendship level, but we're both still to afraid of how to keep a safe distance, if you know what I mean. The OM and I used to relate on such a deep level, and naturally, that has changed. But we can still talk about personal issues. I'm still not certain I can or should be his friend. I honestly wish we'd never messed that friendship up like we did. He was an awesome friend, and we are so very much alike. He totally understood me in a way my H never has. <P>You and Sifted totally understand this! We are all experiencing the same type of feelings. I, too, talked to my H about the feelings of withdrawal. Yes, he does know about OM (most, but not all of it, however). He is/was very confused by all of it. He knows the OM and I had a powerful emotional attachment, one that my H and I never have shared. But that is something I have to let go of. The OM is also married, unlike Momma's situation. So I knew we would only hurt and destroy our spouses if we continued on the path. <P>I also try to focus on the negatives to try to deal with staying away. But the good creeps in as well. My counselor has helped me a lot. He has assured me that my H and I will one day be as passionate as my relationship with OM. We're just not there yet...and have a very long way to go. <P>Momma, your description of just plain old having a bad attitude is how I feel. I'm so moody it's unreal. I'm so angry at myself for all of this mess! That's a big one for me. I know the enemy will use that anger to condemn us and keep us in a perpetual state of rage, but I am not going to allow that! Some days are certainly better than others...and yesterday was a big yucky day! <P>Oh, yeah, Momma, you had asked about your H working the late shift. That's us too! My H works nights and that does make it difficult doesn't it? We discussed that today...and we would both prefer him home at night, but he doesn't have much choice. So, like you, I come here and "talk" to you and others. It's such a comfort. I work my own hours, so it's nice for me.<P>Sifted...hang in there! And at least know that I'm right in the middle of this as well. We will get through this! I know we will. God's promise to us is that He will never leave us nor forsake us! That we can do ALL things through Christ....even get through this. Knowing that we are doing what He would expect from us. Repenting and turning away from our sin! <P>Bighope....in response to your question, I'm so sorry for your pain. Perhaps the OW was just so deeply entrenched in the withdrawl, that to see your H so consumed her. Sometimes there is no rational explanation in this kind of weird relationship mess. It makes people do the strangest things. Things you would normally never do. It takes so much strength to let go...she probably just caved in. Sounds as if your husband didn't give her any sign that would lead her to believe there's any chance of starting up again. Maybe that's all she needed to let go for good. <p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 19, 2000).]

Momma,<P>You asked a question about your husband working nights again. I'm not sure what you are referring to, so I can't answer that right now.<P>I hope we didn't bring on your sad feelings by talking about our struggles today! You were doing so well. Our moods are certainly affected by what we dwell on. I admire your decision to stay with your husband and that you keep reminding youself of that choice. I think it would be especially hard since the OM was single.<P>In my case the OM is also married, so we are both OP and WS. That has plenty of its own complications. Sometimes it is hard to believe I am even in this situation and typing this. <P>You asked if I made a decision between OM or husband. For me the circumstances have a big influence on my decision. Initially my decision is not based on feeling "in-love" at this time for my husband, or even evaluating and deciding he is best. At least at this point I can't say that. I think it was NoMas who said something about, given different circumstances (being free, etc), he might very much like to choose the OW. I could probably say that too, but given our situations and committments we've made long ago, I don't feel like I can have/choose the OM. I have read that some think that is "unfair" or "dishonest" towards husband (to go back because it is the "right" thing to do). I see it as a starting point, with the hope that more will develop and I will put effort into that. Isn't that what a committment really is: sticking by someone whether you feel like it or not (feelings come and go).<P>The challenge about a promise to someone "until death do us part" is that we do change and grow (sometimes independently of each other) and that can influence how we feel towards someone. In my case, the OM would often say, "I wish I had met you long ago", to which I would think/reply, "I wasn't the same person then. I have grown and matured". So, we do change (hopefully for the better), and that is where committment and real love comes in. <P>Well, now I'm rambling for sure. These are many thoughts going through my head these days about love, committment, life, fulfillment. At the same time I struggle with the loss because I really liked who I was when I was with the OM (and I don't believe it was all fantasy). It seemed like a good "match" for this time in my life, but love doesn't work that way! And the loss is giving that up.<P>Hope I didn't turn your thoughts back to OM. I think I better go do something else now too, to get my mind somewhere else. SIGH. Life is hard, but good can come from it. (Does this sound like a "pep" talk? - probably is!)

Just had to post a little more since I just saw Wings post. Thank you, Wings, I can really identify with all you say, especially about being such a good friend with the OM and way you related on such a deep level, which you haven't attained with your husband. Well, that is my case, too, and I'm not sure it will ever be there, given our personalities. We had a talk about it yesterday and he said if we are out hiking (recreation is our one area we do get along greatly in), he just wants to experience everything around him and I want to talk about things, ideas, etc (I'm an intuitive and he is sensing). In a way I'm "interrupting his experience in nature", but I am so inspired to share things at those moments! I live in a world of ideas and he lives in the world of senses around him. At least we both realize it now (which is how the "types" help), but that doesn't mean anything will change, we just know how we are different! Well, maybe something can be worked out, but it has made it kind of a lonely relationship for me. I'm sure you both understand.<P>I think it would be very difficult to stay friends with the OM. I would love to also, but there are so many feelings, I don't think it could be kept at a friendship level, even if we tried. I am sorry, too, I messed up the friendship part, but I'm not sure how the progression could have stopped anyway. A relationship grows and develops, you can't really keep it at a certain level, which is why "opposite" sex friendships are difficult to maintain in adulthood.<P>Just some thoughts, but I know how you both feel...<P>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 19, 2000).]

I have rarely written here,but I usually come to the sight several times a week and read. As you can tell by my name, I had an affair with one of "our" best friends. We went to church together, vacationed together, and spent most weekend evenings together. Our children were best friends as well. Somewhere along the way, the OM started meeting unmet needs I had. I didn't communicate to my H what was missing, and then got angry at him for not knowing. Anyway that is a brief background of my affair. The OM was ready for us to leave our marriages and start over. He proposed several times. I knew I had to work on my marriage. Not only because it's the Christian thing to do, but because I married a man I loved, and he deserved that commitment from me. It's been a little over five months since the relationship ended. He did talk to me once 4 months ago at church when we both happened to be in a hallway alone. They have since left our church about 3 months ago, so I haven't seen him since then. <BR>I understand how difficult this is for you all. It's encouraging to me to hear from other women who have been in the same situation as me. I missed the OM like an addiciton the first few weeks. Now I wonder more about whether it's been hard for him to get over me! (I know that sounds rather snobbish!) My husband knows everything about the affair and we are working to rebuild our marriage. It's not an overnight thing. My advice to you all is to keep working though. You will build a closeness with your husband if you try. I look at what my life would be like now if I had left my husband for the OM and I'm so glad I'm here. I still care about OM, and had known him for 9 years, so I don't think it was fantasy . I do think the picture he painted of our future together was fantasy. I think I was the newest acquisition in his life, and my husband has deep unconditional love for me. <BR>I have truly felt the pain you all are feeling. It takes time, prayer, patience, and lots of love. We aren't a success story yet, but we get closer every day. Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to offer some encouragement!

Momma, sifted, wings,<P>I feel like apologizing whenever I post to you guys, 'cause I'm one of the few betrayeds that consistently seeks out your threads.<P>I don't know why, but I can identify with everything you say except missing the OM since there was no OM.<P>I identify with so much of what you say about how different we are, about how I see Harley principles really working (did you catch my story thread?), yet still wondering if it can ever be sooo intense?<P>I mentioned once that one thing I learned about him from the emails with OW was that he can be very tender and caring. I thought he could turn that my way, but it was many months (even since he says he is over OW) before I felt the tenderness. But the intensity...the expression of it was all on her side. But I could tell how deeply he felt it as I gave him a shoulder to cry on during withdrawal.<P>So it may be that our hs aren't so much incapable of feeling intensely as expressing those feelings??<P>I hear some questions about being better matched with the OM. I wonder if he would be here if he had been better matched with OW. Although the intense feelings were there, she was 21 and he was smart enough to realize there was no long term anything there. So it was that mostly, doing the "right" thing, especially for the kids. He apparently felt nothing for me.<P>I too wonder if I could not find a better match. Those first weeks after discovery I wanted to meet someone myself. Not to get back at him, no. Such a hunger was awakened in me to experience that in-loveness myself. I had been committed to him through the years of not having my needs met, and suddenly I felt I was no longer obligated to him, not since he had broken his vows.<P>But even before I read of all your struggles I know an EA is not the answer. I have set my heart on the goal of a wonderful relationship with my h and I'm staying the course.

Hi I am the Cheater!<P>Thanks for your story. It is such an encouragement. I know some people think "Christian" and "affair" don't belong in the same sentence. I have no justifiable explanation or defense for my own actions. I am a sinner, I have fallen and I am repenting. Thank God for His mercy and grace to cover me.<P>I have had the same thoughts regarding the "fantasy". I don't think every affair relationship is based on fantasy, but I agree that the idea that it will "all work out and everyone will adjust and be happy (including children) IS a fantasy. <P>I haven't had any counseling (nor has my husband), but I think it is a necessary part of the healing process. It seems very important for building a stronger marriage, which is my desire. Anyone have any thoughts about this? In our area it is hard to find good Christian counselors. Possibly we will have to drive 45 minutes to an hour. We tried in January to get an appointment with some Christian counselors in another town - and they were totally booked. I think God has His perfect timing, and maybe now we should pursue it again.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:<BR><B>I haven't had any counseling (nor has my husband), but I think it is a necessary part of the healing process. It seems very important for building a stronger marriage, which is my desire. Anyone have any thoughts about this? In our area it is hard to find good Christian counselors. Possibly we will have to drive 45 minutes to an hour. We tried in January to get an appointment with some Christian counselors in another town - and they were totally booked. I think God has His perfect timing, and maybe now we should pursue it again.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Siftedlikewheat,<P>How about the Harley phone counselling? We counselled with Jennifer Harley, a great Christian counsellor. She co-wrote SAA with her father and helped us take the necessary steps towards rebuilding.<P>Not sure if that's what you meant by "healing". She said it was their experience not to tackle the pain head on, that it would heal in time if the relationship was strong. That has been very true.<P>Being on the phone was not awkward as I originally feared, and it saved getting sitters and driving. If you prefer a man, there is her brother Steve, both very well qualified.<BR>

Hi Guys...<BR>Gosh...take away the names...and no one could guess who wrote what...since all of us could have said the same exact thing.<BR> <BR>Wings....I was unaware you were still battling with contact. I have stayed away from the boards lately. The whole friendship thing is so true. My friend and I, (yes...we resumed contact)...have a very deep emotional bond...and since we are miles apart, it is an EA for obvious reasons. But talk about being able to talk,share, open up freely.... I never had anything like this in my own marriage. And I don't mean to suggest my marriage was "bad". But I got a taste of something that truly is hard to turn away from.<P>Sifted....how long has it been since you were in contact with OP?<P>Schizzo...I saw your post a few nights ago...about your eyes filling up with hot tears wondering why your husband could not love you like he loved the OW. That was the last post I read...didn't even know what to say to you. I felt bad that my words made you feel that way.<P>I know so many have urged me to share with my wife about my struggle...but there are reasons (which I cannot post here) as to why I cannot do that at this time. I am not trying to carry a "martyr's flag"....but it can be a painfuly lonely struggle.<P>I know all the truth, logic, and reason there is about my case. Problem is...my heart is unyielding. I am in love with a woman in the deepest sense...and both of us, as strongly as we feel for each other, both know that we cannot have each other. Yet...we both have failed miserably at trying to break off contact. And with each failure, the sense of defeat comes back stronger on us. We have likened it to trying to climb out of a very steep and icy slope or ditch. We make one small step forward, and then we slip right back.<P>So...as you can see....I have no encouraging news for anyone here. But...that is where I am at these days. <P>****sigh*****

NoMas,<P>Please don't feel bad about your words affecting me.<P>It was really weird the way I broke down and cried, out of the blue. But it led to a good discussion with my h - can't remember exactly - something about not longing for one who is there, the feelings we're looking for may be different.<P>As you can tell by my last post here, the biggest question I have is still whether we can really get to an intensity I long for...<P>Yet at the same time I post my story of hope with equal passion. Maybe I'm still living up to my name - schizzo.<P>Did any of you read my story? Did it make sense?

schizzo...<BR>When I read your post the other night....I went out for a long walk. Lots of thoughts I chewed on.<P>I think you might have been the one who mentioned that God gave Eve to Adam to meet certain needs. I was reminded how it was God who said: "It is not good for man to be alone." <BR>That was why he created Eve. <BR>Sadly...so many spouses today...though married, are so very much alone. I don't think I even realized how lonely I was...until my friend (DJ) came along. She too was experiencing the same loneliness in her own marriage. We started out encouraging each other....and ended up allowing our own hearts to be knit together.<P>Many marriages...that 'drift' to this point, did not get there overnight. And they are not fixed overnight. It must be a painfully slow process. I am not sure what it takes...to motivate oneself....to put forth the effort...when you are so tired....and have "tasted of something"....that seems so much wonderful than anything you have tasted of in the past.<BR>Sure....everyone says it is a make-believe fantasy.<BR>I am not sure I buy that. Oh...I see where some of that comes into play. But...."DJ" will always....be a person...who I know would be a perfect fit in my life...if ever the opportunity allowed itself.

NoMas,<P>Actually I agree, it is not always or only fantasy. I think your case is very different from my h's in that. That's why I said earlier that if he had picked a better match in the OW, he might not even be here today.<P>He's different from a lot of guys here. He was definitely looking for "love", it was never a friendship that crossed the line. She was 21, pretty, and so vulnerable. He wanted to know if he had what it takes to make her fall in love. He didn't expect to fall in love also. At least that's what I get out of it. Sex was not what he was after, but a way of winning her heart. They did it on the first date.<P>There is still anger that pops up now and then. I was home taking care of two small kids, I felt he had shut me out and never bonded with them. And still I was trying to do the best I knew how.<P>He never had to worry whether they would be well cared for. I was here taking care of them while he was off in Brazil. I thought he was working hard and sleeping alone in his hotel. But neither were true. His trips became more and more about being with her. They stayed up all night, woke up next to each other. He even told me she snored.<P>Then he would come home and pretend everything was fine. I called a lot when he was gone, never thought I needed to check on him, just to talk to him. She was there sometimes when we talked.<P>I honestly never thought I would be facing this in my life. I didn't marry until almost 30 because I waited a long time to meet the "right" guy, and I believed it was wrong to have sex outside of marriage, even when I was single so I waited. Now, I am facing the fact of teaching my kids, and I just don't know anymore.<P>We have set up our entire lives by the teachings of the Bible, so I could not understand him doing this. Six months with one woman (this while I waited for his flight from Mexico, he took an earlier flight and lied and saw someone in town), then a few months off till he met #2. I don't believe committment is enough. I've learned the hard way that Harley is right. But what happens if I'm incapacitated or something? He runs from problems.<P>Sorry for the ramble. Maybe it's 'cause he's in Brazil, her place.

Hey NoMas...<BR>Where have you been? I've been wondering how you were doing. <P>Yes, I hate to admit it...my "no contact" didn't last very long. I see you're in the same boat. My "friend" and I have stayed away from one another, but he still emails me and wants to "talk"....I know everyone's advice is to just stop all communication...we do and then before long, we're talking again. Can we be friends...as Momma asked...is it really possible? I don't know the answers. <P>Thanks for jumping in here and joining us....it helps to know others out there understand! We all need to support each other through this difficult journey. <P>Schizzo..<BR>I'm not certain where you posted your story, but from what I read, you and your husband are trying to make that connection as well. Is that right? If he's going through what the rest of us are, he's trying with everything he has to get right with you, his wife, and make your marriage better. Did he get emotionally attached to this OW? Or was it just a fling? In any event...I'm sorry for your pain as well. It's got to be difficult for you to read this thread! <BR>I can tell you my husband is trying to understand what it was that attracted me emotionally to the OM so that he can try to fill that void. He always knew I felt it, but he didn't really take it seriously until I revealed some of the reality of my relationship with OM. Now he's listening and we're both working on communicating. <BR>Are you in counseling? <BR> <p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 20, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bighope:<BR><B>Momma:<P>Explain something for me, why would OW go to the same place when she knows my h is there and yet she is pregnant by her h? <P>This hurts a lot and I am not use to any contact and since it has been four months, I don't get it.<P>BH</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>First of all, not to stir up any trouble, are you positive the child she's pregnant with is her H's? Just wanted to make sure. BH, it's hard to explain, but it's so hard to stay away from OM. Especially for a woman. I don't know if she's intentionally trying to start something or if she just wants to see your H. I know you said it's been four months, but she still may be in withdrawal. I hope things get better for you. Since it didn't affect your H, I wouldn't worry about it to much. Just keep working on your marriage like you have been. Sometimes we have to go through those little obsticales, and I sure don't know why! It seems like when you're doing really well, something comes along and hits you! Hang in there! Sounds like your H is doing alright.<BR>

momma:<P>You aren't stirring up anything. I know ow isn't pregnant by my h. During these months of no contact how much pain he has been in. We are making steps forward. I also know she wanted to get pregnant by my h (my h told me she wanted too - scary). <P>I remember how things were during his affair, how he treated me and such (didn't understand what was happending at that time. He is starting to become the man I feel in love with again. He treats me so much better!! I watch for signs all the time. I really feel he is doing so much better.<P>Thanks for your concern, <BR>BH

Wow! I don't even know where to start, there's so many posts!<P>NoMas, I'm glad to see you post again. You're right about all of us being in the same boat. It's not the best place to be. I wish you the best w/your struggle, but I can promise it won't get any better until everything is straightened out w/your W and OW, both. I know you may feel a little better right now having contact w/OW, but it doesn't solve your problem. I hope your pain ends soon, believe me, I know what you're going through.<P>Schizzo, please don't feel like you should apologize to us for posting to us just because you're on the other side. If you can relate, it helps all of us. You can help us, too, because we can see the position our H's are in. I'm sorry that we're all here for the reasons we are, but I'm not sorry that I get to "talk" to all of you. You don't know what a tremendous help this has been for me!<P>I'm the cheater,<BR>I'm glad to hear your success, although I know you've probably worked hard to get there. I definitely can relate to you, too. Do you still ever miss OM? Do you struggle w/that at all? It sounds like you're doing really well. I think the best remedy is time. It's so good to hear how your relationship is getting better w/your H. I'm experiencing that, too, and trying to explain it to Sifted and Wings. You can get closer, but I think some take more work than others. You said, "I look at what my life would be like now if I had left my husband for the OM and I'm so glad I'm here." I could have written that statement myself!! I totally agree w/you there. When I think about XOM, I just remember comments like that. Thank you so much for the encouragement, it does help tremendously!<P>

Wings, I'm so glad you're here! You understand so well how I feel, it sounds like you're feeling the same way. I can't talk to my H any about XOM, because he hates him so much. He wouldn't understand why I'd still have feelings for OM. Other than that, we communicate really well. We just don't discuss that and everything's just fine. He really doesn't understand how deep it was either. If he does, he doesn't express it. I also don't want to put him through anymore pain or agony, because I've already put him through so much. Do you know what I mean?<P>I'm not as strong as you think! I'm trying, but I'm not very strong at all, sometimes!<P>And about the "being friends" issue. You're also right, but sometimes I like to imagine it's possible that we could be friends! Fat chance, I know!! <P>Another issue, my littlest one looks SO much like XOM. Sometimes, it really gets to me, then other times it doesn't. I don't really know how to deal with that some days. There's not much I can do about it, it's just something I have to live with. I'm still scared one of these days he's going to call and demand to see the little one. Guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I get there. Some days when I'm weak, I worry that I'll give in to him if he does contact. Just venting again!<P>Have a great day!!! <P>

Bighope,<BR>I'm so glad for your positive steps forward! I'm also glad that the OW's child is her H's. That helps the situation, for you anyway! I'm so happy that everythings going well! Your story is encouraging, too! Thank heaven that you and your H have been able to work it out. It's nice to hear the positive stories! Keep up your hard work!! <P>

Good morning all!<P>Another tough start of a day. Afternoons seem better for me, when I'm home enjoying my children. I am thankful for them.<P>NoMas, I know there has been a lot of discussion about sharing with our spouses the (full) extent of our feelings, involvement, hurt and loss. I, too, have not done that, thinking in part my husband couldn't handle it, he might even do something really foolish, etc. I am kind of independent and just thought I have to "tough this out alone". But lately the thought has come to me that I might be holding some things back because it gives me some control over the situation. Maybe I haven't wanted to turn that over to him and be fully accountable. It is keeping "a little part of this" for myself and really has allowed me to keep up some contact. Maybe I haven't wanted to give that all up yet. I see, though, that is keeping a gap between my husband and I. I am beginning to realize what full disclosure (as much as they want to know) really means. It removes walls and barriers and little private places we keep for ourselves. You are right, I don't know your situation and you may have very different and justified reasons for "going it alone", but for myself there is some truth to the thoughts expressed above.<P>Another thought I've had recently: I have read that some betrayed spouses have wondered if their spouse could ever love them the way they loved the OP. Some have been amazed to read the e-mails, never knowing their spouse could be so affectionate, open and expressive of their feelings. They desire and long for their spouse to relate to them in the way they related to the OP. Well, turn it around and it is the same for me. Can my spouse ever show the love towards me that the OP did? I am longing for that also and have never experienced it in my marriage (not even close), even in our dating times. My husband has been rather indifferent/nonchalant towards me. It made me wonder if he even loved or liked me very much. My question often these days is "Why couldn't he do that?". Why didn't he want to converse with me, share his life with me, want to know/care about my daily activities, be affectionate, share goals and plans, admire me... I tried to build that with him, but there was no response on the other side. Not having the answers to that "why" (he can't explain it either) makes it very hard to turn back. It is like turning from sunshine to damp fog, from abundance to barrenness. And the fear is it may always stay that way. Isn't that what makes it so hard for us to give up the contact and return back? The problem is you have to let go of the one before you can really give the other a chance. Believe me it is like making that jump out of the plane, trusting the parachute will open. There is a delay time, where you are just free in the air, waiting for the parachute. There is a time of barrenness before the abundance. It is the hope in a promise, yet unfulfilled and often never yet realized at any time in your marriage. It is hard, but unless a seed falls into the ground... <P>Today I read this in Psalm 66:<P>For you, O God, tested us; you refined us like silver.<BR>You brought us into prison and laid burdens on our backs. <BR>You let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and water, but you brought us to a place of abundance. <P>I like the part about "brought us to a place of abundance". That is my longing and my hope. I know I cannot find it outside of God's will. Again, SIGH. Lots of sighs for me these days.<P>

momma:<P>I hope you don't take any offense to this, but from reading this post you have a child with XOM? How hard that must be on you!!!<BR>I don't know your situation, tell me a little about it.<P>You are very strong for not contacting XOM. <P>Bighope

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:<BR><B>....I hope we didn't bring on your sad feelings by talking about our struggles today! You were doing so well. Our moods are certainly affected by what we dwell on.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You didn't bring me down, Sifted. I do that to myself. But I agree with what you said about our moods being affected by what we dwell on. You are also such an encouragement to me. See how we can all help each other, even if we're struggling ourselves?!!<BR> <BR>Thanks for the "pep" talk, you're right, it is hard, but it can and does get better.<P>I wanted to tell you I agree with all you said on this post (about H vs. OM). But, I don't want to start my rambling again, so I won't make anymore comments! It still amazes me how you guys can have such similar points of view and feelings as I do.<P>Thank you for your understanding and sharing. You guys sure are helping me tons!!! Keep on hanging in there, Sifted. You'll figure it out! <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bighope:<BR><B>momma:<P>I hope you don't take any offense to this, but from reading this post you have a child with XOM? How hard that must be on you!!!<BR>I don't know your situation, tell me a little about it.<P>You are very strong for not contacting XOM. <P>Bighope</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for telling me I'm strong for not contacting XOM. I'm not really, but it helps me to hear it! It is very hard, that's why I was asking you about your H and the OW's child. Thank goodness you don't have to deal w/that!! I'm going to take some of what I've posted earlier to give you an idea of my story:<P>I'm the WS that had OC w/OM. (H knows all). I ended the affair shortly after I found out I was pregnant and had no contact w/OM the whole pregnancy. I still thought about OM, but never acted on it. However, after I had my baby, I found it VERY difficult to get OM out of my head. Then, I made contact and affair was on/off again for months. <P>Now, my child is 11 mos., and I've not had contact w/OM for almost 3 mos. <P>That may give you an idea of what I'm going through. You can also do a search on my user name (momma). That gives all my posts I've made or responded to.<P>Thanks for your concern, too!!!<BR>

Hi Momma...<BR>Wow...I knew little bits and pieces of your story, but I didn't know you and XOM had no contact and then started up again after your child was born. What an emotional experience you've lived through, not to mention your husband. Bless him for taking your child with OM in to raise as his own. We have another friend going through this exact situation...unbelieveable! <BR>Again, Momma, you are an inspiration having endured all that you have. Thanks for sharing the truths you do about us having to let go of OP before we can really reconnect with our H's. (Your name suits you well, as you console the rest of us going through this!)<P>Sifted...<BR>what you wrote today to NoMas is so absolutely true! Thanks for that Psalm as well. I can so related to longing for that depth of passion with your H that you shared with OM. I am pondering that very same truth, that in my heart, as long as I keep a small window open with OM, then I haven't fully given myself back to my H. Like you and NoMas, I haven't revealed everything to my H. Your precious example confirms to me that I, too, am holding onto memories of OM, but the sad reality is that no matter what we had, God cannot and will not ever bless it. I've got to let it go. Hanging on, pining for what we once "had" is not going to allow me to find that abundance God promises with my H. <P>You also mentioned you're an intuitive and your H is a sensing personality. That's exactly how my H and I are. He's not into revealing his heart, and I thrive on deep, introspective thought. I could relate to your hiking example...exact same experience f9or us. My H wants to examine all of the critters along the way, I want to talk about dreams, goals, places in the heart. We simply don't speak the same language, where as OM and I did. <P>Sifted, can you tell me how you finalized the "no contact" with OM? I know I need to do that. Did you talk to him and decide together? Or did you write him a letter? Was it a mutual decision for both of you? Though I've "mentally" excised myself from OM, he sends me emails wanting to talk about personal stuff, and I don't want to lose that by telling him to leave me alone. That seems so harsh and cruel considering how close we were. But I know it's fence sitting on my part. If you don't mind, what did you say and how did OM respond to your decision? <P>PS...do any of you have your emails posted anywhere? <BR><p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 20, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wings:<BR><B>Schizzo..<BR>I'm not certain where you posted your story, but from what I read, you and your husband are trying to make that connection as well. Is that right? If he's going through what the rest of us are, he's trying with everything he has to get right with you, his wife, and make your marriage better. Did he get emotionally attached to this OW? Or was it just a fling? In any event...I'm sorry for your pain as well. It's got to be difficult for you to read this thread! <BR>I can tell you my husband is trying to understand what it was that attracted me emotionally to the OM so that he can try to fill that void. He always knew I felt it, but he didn't really take it seriously until I revealed some of the reality of my relationship with OM. Now he's listening and we're both working on communicating. <BR>Are you in counseling?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi Wings,<P>No, it doesn't really hurt me to read these threads because I made it through the anger/pain phase with the help of Jennifer Harley. We did counsel with her.<P>To answer the other question, there was an emotional attachment. I guess he took the jump out of the airplane you guys were talking about because he came clean and really ended all contact.<P>But I was trying to say that I identify with what you have been saying about the connection. I too am a woman with an insensitive husband that didn't know how to meet my needs. The only difference is that he's the one that found someone while I stayed put. For some of you, it sounds like he still loved you, just didn't do a good job meeting your needs (you were probably doing a pretty good job meeting his).<P>I wish I could say all this with fewer words. Anyway, for us there were two people completely out-of-love with each other.<P>So why try at all? 1.We both studied Harley's material and believe there is a chance, a chance for a really fulfilling marriage, and it's worth trying.<P>2.We have children 5 and 3, and I would do anything for them, just not sure what is best for them. Certainly not staying together just for them. We have to make it happen!<P>3.I'm a realist. Unlike you guys there is no OM, and I have never met a guy that would really be this wonderful, unselfish person over the long haul. That's where I believe Harley is right about the fantasy nature of EAs. I think I would just trade known difficulties for unknown.<P>I think what attracted him to the OW was a need for admiration and excitement (she was 21, she even felt the discrepancy, that she felt she had nothing to give to him).<P>I still live up to my name of schizzo.<P>Here's my story, I was much more upbeat when I wrote it:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003556.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003556.html</A> <P>Siftedlikewheat - I see you read what I wrote about learning about my h through his emails to OW. It was a shock to discover he could be so tender. Not intense, though. That was all on her side.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wings:<BR><B>Though I've "mentally" excised myself from OM, he sends me emails wanting to talk about personal stuff, and I don't want to lose that by telling him to leave me alone. That seems so harsh and cruel considering how close we were. But I know it's fence sitting on my part. If you don't mind, what did you say and how did OM respond to your decision?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>wings, this was hard for my h too. It is only in hindsight that he can agree that it really was best not just for us but for OW. He was doing her no favors leaving the door open, even a little bit. A clean break allowed her to move on with her life.<P>It does seem cruel, but it's the only way. He too had tried to move to friendship, and started waffling again.<P>It also struck me that you asked if you decided together (meaning you and OM)? We decided as a couple and informed OW by letter that he wanted no further contact and would she please respect it. It also said that his wife (me) had read all their emails. We used the form letter in SAA and added the part about the emails.<P>I think it's an important distinction that it said my wife knows everything and WE...it closes the door, it is no longer he and OW deciding anything together, there is no more THEM.<P>I know you were asking Sifted, but I hope my .02 helps. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited June 20, 2000).]

Schizzo....<BR>Hi, I just read your earlier post. You've been through the gammut, girl! I hope no matter where any of us are in this, we can inspire, encourage and support one another. I so love the interaction I get from others here at this forum. You are far wiser than I, in that at least you didn't go out and have your needs met by another. It is absolutely not the answer...only now in hindsight I see clearly. <P>Good for you that you and your H are getting counseling. My H doesn't think he needs any. So I'm left to do this all on my own. As usual. I find that my H pushes too much trying to get close, but it only pulls me further away. Does that make any sense? There's a fine line isn't there in all of this? <P>I hope you and your H stay the course...as so many of us are, and eventually find that balance. At least he's been honest with you. That's a good start. <P>Oh, and thank you for your insight as to how you and your husband handled the OW. Wow, that's a bold step he took. I respect him for that. I appreciate you sharing that...very much!<P><p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 20, 2000).]

Wings,<P>Thanks for your reply. Yes, I do love the interaction.<P><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited June 20, 2000).]

Schizzo,<P>You really gave me some things to think about. Wings asked if the OM and I decided together to break all contact. The answer to that is "yes". Not that we "wanted", but knew we had to. It is interesting, Schizzo, that you and your husband did it together as "you and him" rather than "he and her". That has made me realize that I haven't really been willing to let my husband have such a big part in all this. Even though I knew I would have to end it, I can see that I wanted to control how and when, in my own way. In a sense it was still the OM and I deciding together, rather than my husband and I. I hadn't really seen it that way before.<P>In a way it is easy for me to keep this kind of control because my husband is not very demanding and would probably rather know less than more. He avoids uncomfortable situations and would prefer not to get too involved. That gives me a lot of freedom to do things my way. But I am seeing that is not good for us if we want to be united as one. I can also see how we are both contributors in this, he by avoiding and me by wanting my own way to do things. If I really want the connection and intimacy in a marriage so many of us seem to be striving for, then this "pattern" will have to be addressed. <P>I will have to think about this more, but you have started to open my eyes to something I never really realized, so I thank you, even though the revelation is kind of disconcerting.

Sifted,<P>You sound like a wonderful lady. We had to break many old ways of relating. I was like your hubby in many ways, but I understood the importance of it being us again, the united front.<P>I understood how deeply he felt for her, and how much was on the line. I understood he NEEDED my help to break the contact and move forward.<P>Don't you think your h would want to do as much for you if he knew all? For us, it was the beginning of a new openness in our beating OUR "demons".<P>You are holding on to control, not wanting to be completely vulnerable and lay your cards on the table. It was a tough thing he did. He had no idea how I would react. But you can help him help you. I think we as women "control" 90% of the relationship anyway. Most men don't begin to understand this stuff unless they are SHOWN.<P>One reason he ended up in a 2nd affair is that he never resolved or came clean after the first one. He carried the guilt alone and felt he had to pretend to be this great, righteous person at home. It was with OW 2 that he shared he had already cheated on me, that he was a lowlife, and she apparently had a similar situation with her BF.<P>I was shocked to learn not only about the infidelity, but the extent. I'm the type of person who would have run and confessed if I so much as kissed another guy. But I realize he was looking for "love", to have his needs met. We have banded together to better understand each other and HELP each other through this.<P>Only once did OW try to contact him and he told me right away.<P>I'm glad I made you think. It pains me to see y'all fighting this alone, as I've said many times to NoMas.<P>We are building a new marriage, one in which we are starting to be able to share EVERYTHING, especially our internal struggles. <B>Maybe it is here, in pain, that the true connection is found, rather than the high and thrill of an affair.</B><P>Obviously it helped that I wanted to know and would prompt him to tell me. He was always transparent anyway and I could tell when he was "looping" about her.<P>I must have been in a coma for the 18 months this was all going on, 'cause now I can tell right away when something is not right. I guess it is the difference of being in the state of intimacy (Harley's 3 states - withdrawal, conflict, intimacy).<P>You're welcome to email me. cvsoto@mail.com<P>------------------<BR>Cindy<p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited June 21, 2000).]

sifted,<P>Now you got me started, I'm long-winded!<P>I was just wondering what your h would post if he were here. Maybe giving you so much "space" is his way of showing his love and trust. Maybe he is crying inside for the closeness like I was. You will never know 'till you lay the cards on the table.<P>God never intended love triangles. You and your h are intended to be "one flesh" and this is a perfect opportunity to give him that chance...you may have to convince him how much you need him.<P>Did you read lostva's thread? Yes, a bit of OW flaming (can't remember if the OM was married), but it was a real, everyday type example of the couple working together with a woman who just won't leave them alone. She works with Lostva's h, making total no contact impossible.

Hi Schizzo,<P>More and more I am seeing how I distanced myself from my husband over the past year. Honesty and openness is my top EN and I have always been very honest and open with my husband. But for the first time ever, I compromised on that - so I could get my needs filled somewhere else. <P>My husband does give me a lot of space. I think it is because he loves and trusts me, but I wonder if it is also because he doesn't want to get involved. Sometimes that "space" can come across as indifference and not caring. I am independent and I like some space, but not as much as he was giving me over the years. I'm sure, though, that my independent nature has given the message that "no one can tell me what to do" and "I am my own person". We will have to find a more healthy balance as we build. So, much work ahead...<P>I do know my husband wants the closeness (like you said you did). Do you think you gave your husband too much space and trust? Did you not feel you could interfere? Part of it is my husband's personality - he is not aggressive, but more holds back. Are you like that also? Just some things I'm wondering about. We can all learn from each other (betrayed and betrayers).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by siftedlikewheat:<BR><B>Do you think you gave your husband too much space and trust? Did you not feel you could interfere? Part of it is my husband's personality - he is not aggressive, but more holds back. Are you like that also?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, obviously too much trust. He is a committed Christian, I never dreamed he could do this. Space? Not really. I have always wanted to be involved in his life/he in mine. We never had "separate" lives. He spent all his non-working hours with us. The travel opened the door for lots of "space" I guess.<P>I am not aggressive either, but not sure what you mean about interfering. The minute I knew about the EA, I would not rest without being a full part of recovery. I'm an all or nothing person when it comes to some things. I was ready to throw him out a few times if I thought he was shutting me out.<P>

Hi all,<P>I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I used to post here a year ago, then on the recovery board, and eventually dropped off. Well, something happened last month, and I've been lurking around here and there, trying to regain some strength. I felt really drawn to this thread because of the similarity to my feelings.<P>I have been married 13 years and have 3 children. I started an EA with a coworker 9 years ago, that eventually turned into a very deep physical/emotional affair. OM and I, both married, were closer than we had ever been with anyone else, best friends, etc… Meanwhile, our affair carried on, even when my husband and I were having children, and his wife and he were having children. We were not always physical with one another, it was more often emotional, but there was both. We believed that we were staying in our marriages because of our children, our jobs, our families, our churches, and that we deserved one another despite our "sacrifice" of staying married. Over the years, we would go through spurts where we would know we were so wrong, and the guilt would overwhelm us, so we would decide to be just friends. Months later we would move back toward one another. All it would take would be one look, and it would start again. After 5 years of this, the guilt and pain overtook me, and I confided in a friend, who took it upon herself to reveal our affair to both spouses. My husband responded by calling me a whore, ignoring me for a total of 4 hours, and then telling me he forgave me, and never wanted to talk about it again. <P>After discovery, I continued to work in the same building with OM, but not together. Although we had promised it was over forever after discovery, almost a year later we again started to become emotionally attached and resumed the affair. The pain of living two lives was overwhelming me, but I could not break free. I was so deeply in love with OM, and the more my H ignored all the signs that I was emotionally detached from him, the more I believed he obviously could not care that much about me (this helped me justify my behavior all the more). This lasted for 2 more years, until by some act of God, I was offered a great job far away. I jumped on this opportunity to start anew. My H did not know my real reason for wanting to move, but was excited about it anyway and also changed jobs and we moved. <P>Withdrawal was almost like torture to me for a long while, although I hid it from my H as best as I could. I did not call or write OM at all after we moved. I have been in a lot of pain and I still miss him on many occasions, but have avoided him at all costs. However, last month OM called me out of the blue- he was here on a business trip and just wanted to have dinner with me to catch up and talk about our jobs and kids. The draw was there again, and stupidly I met him for dinner. I was very friend-like during dinner (which really bothered him), but at the end he asked if he could kiss me. I said No, that I was recovering from him, and that I should just leave. I offered a hug, again stupidly, which invariably turned into a kiss (all the passion re-ignited). Then I abruptly left before anything worse could happen. I knew it was a horrible mistake to have seen him.<P>Anyway, I have been struggling with this for 4 weeks now, feeling sick and guilty and again back in withdrawal from OM. Not quite back to point A, but definitely several steps back from where I had been. And this is 2 YEARS later! I was wondering if it would ever end, when I read this thread and realized where my problem lies. I did reveal my affair to my H years ago, but was never able to explain the depth of it to him. He never knew I felt in love with OM. I did move away from OM, but never shared the reason with my H. I think I never healed from this properly because my H and I never became any closer after it happened. I am afraid to broach this subject with him, because in my H's eyes, this OM has been out of our lives for 5 years already. To admit that there have been so many more lies and secrets, I am afraid to do. Also, my H had told me upon learning of the affair that he never wanted to discuss it again. He never knew it continued a year after discovery. I'm sick inside, but yet realize that the only way I'm ever going to fall back in love with my H (and completely rid myself of OM) is to become emotionally closer to my H, and I guess to share this all with him. What is the proper way to be completely honest with a spouse who is a conflict avoider and does not like to hear the truth? Like I mentioned above, there were many signs of all this that he avoided over the years, yet he never asked me "what is wrong?". I want to be rid of this feeling once and for all… and I want desperately to love my H again. I haven't said "I love you" to him since discovery, and he has never noticed (or never mentioned it). We have a really bad pattern of avoidance in our marriage.<BR>

Hi Tamis....<BR>Welcome back! I'm so glad you joined this thread. As you have probably read, there are several of us here in various stages of withdrawl and recovery from EA/PA's. <P>I was so blown away by the pain you must be in. I can imagine how you must feel, especially how to go about the "revealing all" crisis. That's an essential element for which I, myself, have not attempted to conquer yet. <P>Though my relationship with OM didn't last nearly as long as yours,it was intensely emotional and as passionate, for sure. I completely understand how you feel. We're still playing that back and forth game. When you mentioned your last contact with OM for dinner, I've been there...and you're right, we know better, we think we're strong enough to handle it, but we only deceive ourselves...and then the pain starts all over again. <P>Read some of Schizzo's postings...she has helped me see that in order for my H and I to get back on track, that I need to release this barrier I have established and detach completely. She's given me a new point of view that has helped me see it from the betrayed spouse's point of view. (Thanks Schizzo) <P>My H sounds much like yours, he hates conflict and doesn't really care to know the why's and wherefore's of my draw toward OM. He doesn't really want to talk about it, he doesn't want counseling, he justs wants us to move on...so I hesitate telling him ALL the details. <P>I don't have answers for you, but I know you don't expect that. We must search our own hearts and ask God to show us how/when to deal with full disclosure. I'm working with my counselor on that issue. He says I'll know when it's the right time...but I don't feel ready yet. <P>I'm so sorry for your pain, but as you have probably read, you are not alone in this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think I never healed from this properly because my H and I never became any closer after it happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Welcome, and this quote is soooo true.<P>Have you read Surviving an Affair?<P>After he gave up OW, I was convinced we must try a full recovery by Harley's rules or split. Period.<P>You have lived with such torture...

Hi all!<P>Tamis, I'm glad you shared your story here. I echo everything Wings wrote. I really feel for your pain and the burden you have been carrying all these years. Being in a triangle like that is horrible. It is one of the things that gave me the strength to get out of this. It messes up your heart and your feelings. It is so confusing. I know I'm not capable of having my feelings go towards more than one person. Even though all your feelings may be directed towards the OP, neither of you belong to each other and that creates such a crazy mess inside. I often felt like there was no safe place to turn to.<P>What an insight to realize that full healing and growing closer to your spouse comes only when you are totally honest and remove all the barriers. I could easily be in your shoes as time progresses if I do not realize this for myself also. My situation is like yours in a way, but a much shorter length of time (1 year). Like you, my husband found out last fall. There was about a three week period where he was very open with his hurt and I answered all his questions (plus he got ahold of all our e-mails, so he really learned everything up to that point). Seems like his main concern was "did we go all the way" (we hadn't). Once he knew that he buried the rest of the pain and didn't really deal with the affair openly anymore. He just wanted to move on with "us". He also "forgave" me quickly and that was it for him. He didn't seem to realize how significant the emotional attachment was. So, I continued to have contact with the OM and my husband hasn't brought it up (except every once in awhile in the form of a threat). I think he may be afraid to really know. I am usually the one who addresses issues directly in our relationship and since I wasn't ready to give up my emotional attachment, I just kept it inside. <P>I've just thought all along once I end this we'll just move on and I won't have to mention that it continued beyond discovery. Now I see that is a barrier and it will prevent full recovery and healing for us both if I keep hiding it, even though I have ended it now. Like you, I am afraid to broach this topic with my husband because he also has thought the OM was out of our lives for the last 6 months. I don't think he ever really understood the depth of the emotional attachment. I'm not sure right now how to begin with this. I will have to pray and see also. I am afraid he will be very angry and maybe do something foolish (because of some threats he has made in the past). I realize that he hasn't dealt with all his anger over this yet either. It all was closed up so quickly after discovery.<P>Like you, I am wondering: "What is the proper way to be completely honest with a spouse who is a conflict avoider and does not like to hear the truth? Like I mentioned above, there were many signs of all this that he avoided over the years, yet he never asked me "what is wrong?"."<P>Let us continue to encourage each other in this and share insights as they come. Thanks again, Tamis, for sharing on this thread. Maybe now after all these years full healing will be realized for you - and your story will prevent some of us from having a similar pattern.

Sifted,<P>I think men focus much more on the sexual and dissmiss the emotional, though I'm sure he still buried a lot of pain. My h and the little girl went all the way on the first date! (Sorry, venting)<P>I know people recommend against "educating" one's spouse, but my h did it without it being an lb. I was the one who set up the counselling session and he poured his heart out to Jennifer Harley first.<P>But he had the book "Surviving an Affair" ready (without the jacket) in his briefcase. I wouldn't dream of telling you how to go about this, just throwing out ideas. If he blew it off the first time, it's up to you to convince him of the seriousness of the threat, lower the barriers as you said, and if possible, point him towards recovery.<P>Have you read the book? The no contact issues you said you were chewing on came from there. It also follows the story of two affairs: one emotional and short, one full-blown sexual, she (the betrayer) moves out, kicks him out instead and finally wants to try only after OM has blown her off.<P>Amazingly the second couple made it too. But it clearly shows that even the emotional one was a serious issue, and goes over the steps to recovery. It was co-authored by Jennifer (Harley) Chalmers and we did phone counselling with her for some time.<P>Chew on it, ladies. I really do hate to see y'all trying to beat this alone and meanwhile missing the opportunity to build the closeness.<P>The book makes a statement that "An emotional reaction to a painful event fades over time, AS LONG AS THE PAINFUL EVENT IS NOT REPEATED."<P>Healing cannot begin for you or your spouse until the affair ends, really is left in the past with finality. The book has a whole chapter on "How Should Affairs End?"<BR><P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Hey, I went out on a limb here, hope I didn't step on any toes. No comments???

cindy,<P>I totally agree with what you said above. I just feel like my H does not want to hear any of this. He does not like deep conversations like that, he never asked any questions about my affair... When I (once) was brave enough to bring this up, I asked "do you ever want to know why this affair happened, or what I was thinking when I was doing this?" he said "nope" and kept on driving. Deep inside, through all those years, I always wanted him to find out I think. I left clues, I acted detached, I even tried reaching out to him, telling him I was falling out of love and I wanted our marriage back. He ignored all of this. How can I get close to him, if he doesn't seem to want to/ or be able to? I know I'll never be happy like this- its like living in a vacuum.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tamis:<BR><B>When I (once) was brave enough to bring this up, I asked "do you ever want to know why this affair happened, or what I was thinking when I was doing this?" he said "nope" and kept on driving. Deep inside, through all those years, I always wanted him to find out I think. I left clues, I acted detached, I even tried reaching out to him, telling him I was falling out of love and I wanted our marriage back. He ignored all of this. How can I get close to him, if he doesn't seem to want to/ or be able to? I know I'll never be happy like this- its like living in a vacuum. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know exactly what you mean. My H didn't want to know either, he just wanted it to be over with. I never expressed to him how I missed XOM while in withdrawal, like some others here who have literally had their spouse cry on their shoulder about OM. I can't see that ever happening w/me & my H. <P>I think men and women are just different about finding out about affairs. When my H confessed his stuff to me, he didn't want to discuss it. I wanted to ask all kinds of questions (still have some), but he wouldn't let me. He said it's over and done with and didn't want to give details. He never had an EA. Just had sex w/2 different women while we were married. He thinks I was so much worse, because I had said I loved the OM and he didn't love the OW. <P>Sorry, just had to vent!! <P>

Momma,<BR>I have read lots of posts from betrayed men who are not like my H at all. These men post that they recognize their wife is distant, they are concerned for the marriage, they want their wife to open up to them. I read these posts with envy. Sometimes I imagine what my H would post if he was going to post... He'd probably say "My wife and I are happy, everything is fine", not "my wife is distant and I want her back". Oh well, I guess he is just the type of guy who is not intuitive to my emotions, and I'll have to just spell it out. (I have told him about this site, and he browsed around, never posted).<P>I don't know if you saw my other post, but we are leaving for vacation this Saturday for a week, and I'm thinking about trying to have a real heart to heart with him. Problem is, I don't know how he'll react and I don't want tension on our kids' one and only summer vacation. I'll do my best. Wish me luck.

Hi Tamis,<P>I really identify with your situation about your husband being closed and distant to learn more about you, your relationship together and the affair. My husband is/was (starting to change) the same. I also feel envy when I read the men here who are posting because they are concerned about their relationships and desiring more closeness with their wives. I have also shared this site with my husband, but he has only browsed briefly once or twice. Still, rather avoid and withdraw when uncomfortable topics are addressed.<P>Yet, I am starting to see that we both have a part in this pattern. I will need to see what I have done to contribute to it and change that. Total honesty is a good beginning.<P>Seems like you are now ready to give all to your marriage and take some big risks in the hopes of building true intimacy and closeness. It is worth the risk. <P>I am intriuged by your story, especially the length of time you stayed in the relationship with the OM. I know this past year has been very stressful for me trying to live within this triangle. Now that you are willing to really turn towards your marriage, I was wondering if you have newly discovered your husband and a love for him and that is what is motivating you? You mentioned you loved the OM and he loved you. Did you ever consider breaking up the marriages (maybe early on before children) so you would each be free for each other? I guess I'm wondering what has finally brought you to this point. These are just all quesions I have, if they are not too personal to answer. I am trying to understand my own situation and the whole concept of love.<P>By the way, I have the book Torn Asunder, which is also very good. As I get more serious about really working on my marriage, I thnk I will get a lot more out of the book.<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 22, 2000).]

I just read all of the posts over the past few days and wanted to comment again. (I haven't gotten to the computer for a while). Someone asked me if I ever think of the OM. Nearly every waking moment! Sometimes it's good, and sometimes bad, but I'm thinking of him often. One of the things that has mad a huge difference though is that I talk to my H about it. He knows how I feel, and the struggles I have. He is not a conflict avoider, and still wants to deal with every detail, sometimes several times over. It's been over 5 months since the affair ended, and we still are discussing how and why it happened. It probably is worse because it was with someone he knew very well. The Friday before he found out we went out to dinner and a movie. The day he found out (a sunday)we had lunch together. I feel so cruel now, but at the time, I was trying to preserve the life I had somehow, but it wasn't possible. I'm a firm believer that all of the truth has to be told.<BR>Another thing I'm working on in counseling is discovering myself. I go to counseling alone as well as with my husband every week. I believe I had neglected my own needs for years being wife, mother, employee... I really lost sight of myself, and allowed my husband to lose sight of my needs too. My needs are my responsibility. The OM and I developed a close friendship over several years. He began to meet needs within me I didn't know I had, and it was a feeling that I hadn't experienced in a long time. I should have stopped him, but it was as if I had no control over myself. Anyway, to get to my point, I am learning to be a person first, wife, mother, employee... next. <BR>The other thing is something I told OM when our affair was ending. I reminded him of the story of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus wanting to know how to get into heaven. Jesus said sell everything you have and give it to the poor. The man couldn't do this. The point of the story isn't that posessions are going to keep us from God. It means anything we value more than God and His will in our lives will keep us from Him. I told the OM, maybe I'm what you should give up. It's just a thought for those of you struggling with ending relationships. Building a strong marriage is possible with God at the center. You have to get to know your spouse again and take lots of time becoming a friend first.

Hello Tamis...<BR>Your original post on this thread really struck a nerve with me. I have not posted much lately....just so tired.....of struggling and expressing it in words here. But what was so sobering....was the length of time you have battled with this...and then to have it rekindled....is really frightening.<BR>I have been emotionally involved with another woman for not quite a year. Only one brief meeting where some physical contact took place. We have become very attached. We both confessed to our spouses after the meeting in December, endured some weeks of pain and agony....butit was not long before we resumed contact again. Both of us are married to spouses who don't like to communicate....and are conflict avoiders. <P>My friend and I....have become best friends. We are both emotionally dependent on each other. We have never made plans to leave our families to pursue a life together as we know it would only cause more pain and hurt and neither of us want to pay that price. We just struggle letting go completly.<BR>This was never about "sex and physical gratification." <BR>What has added to the pain...is the lack of help from our mates. Neither of them know we resumed contact...because we just can't bare to add more pain to their hearts. Yet...we are unable to talk to them and ask for help out of this place. I don't know that we can make it without them. I guess that is why your post really hit home. I could have written it myself. WE are just fortunate that we do not live in the same town or state.<BR>We have made repeated attempts to break off contact...and fail all the time. Neither of us can imagine....ever losing this deep affection that we have for each other. It is a very tiresome and painful struggle. Certainly, it would have been better to have never ventured into this place. We have yet to find the way out. So many here insist I tell my wife...but there are factors I don't wish to share here...that hinder this from happening. <P>Hello Wings...schizzo....sifted...momma....I've been lurking...just been quiet. Momma....saw your thread about running into the OM. How are you doing now with all that?<BR>By the way....has anyone found that "wand" that we could wave that would magically fix everything for us? :-)<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited June 23, 2000).]

Hi all! Hope you're starting off the day good. Mostly I feel alright, then suddenly I'll be overcome with sadness and break down for a short time. I hear that is how it is when someone dies. Usually though my feelings seem kind of neutral (or numb) and it makes me wonder if I'm just pushing a lot out of my mind and might crash at some point...<P>NoMas, I figured you were lurking. I understand the tiredness, especially in trying to figure everything out, explain once again... I get tired like that too. You mentioned that you can't bear to add more pain and hurt to your spouse's heart by sharing more with her. That made me think of something I read in one of Harley's books. It was the chapter on Honesty and Openness. It said there are different types of liars (born liars, convenience liars and protective liars). The protective liar keeps things from his spouse so as not to "burden" her, thinking she can't take it (for example the extent of financial debt they may be in, an risky investment he made that went bad...). Harley said we should not withhold information from our spouse just to protect them. It does build a barrier between us and doesn't show a lot of respect for them ("they can't handle it"). So, just something to think about - no preaching or judging here. It is just that I have withheld information in the past year (never did before) and I am realizing through this thread and from other's stories how hindering that is to real intimacy and closeness in a relationship. My husband has withheld all kinds of information over the years (even good stuff, like his future "dreams") and that has hurt us greatly, especially since my top EN is Honesty and Openness. When we withhold information we are really withholding ourselves - and no wonder we feel lonely in the most "intimate" earthly relationship we have.<P>I know it is difficult with spouses who don't like to communicate and are conflict avoiders. I guess I am seeing I must try once more, it is the only chance I have for the hope of the type of relationship I have always longed for.<P>BTW - I guess Jesus would have liked a magic wand also, instead of enduring the pain of the cross. "Father, if this cup could pass away,...but not My will, but Thine". For somethings in life there just isn't a magic wand.<P><p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 23, 2000).]

I was happy I struck a cord somewhere. I do really believe it is in your hands to take the relationship in the right direction. You are the betrayers and women! We all know women account for 90% of the relationship.<P>Remember men don't have the right brain - left brain link??<P>We've talked about laying the cards down, being open and letting the chips just fall.<P>I've also felt we as women must help our spouses help us (since they are so clueless).<P>You have to break the stagnation!<P>But the underlying question is a tough one, I've felt it between the lines:<P>Are you really doing your spouse or kids a favor if you are willing to stay in a "loveless" marriage?<P>It was easier for me as the betrayed in that sense. I had every moral right to make it clear that I would stay ONLY IF WE REBUILT OUR MARRIAGE FROM SCRATCH USING HARLEY's PRINCIPLES AND FOUND THE IN-LOVENESS.<P>Was this an ultimatum? I don't really know, I only know I could not go back to what we had.<P>You are trying so hard to do what is right. But as Tamis pointed out, she was left vulnerable because the changes weren't made in the marriage.<P>Any thoughts??<P><P>------------------<BR>Cindy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NoMas:<BR><B>.....Momma....saw your thread about running into the OM. How are you doing now with all that?<BR>By the way....has anyone found that "wand" that we could wave that would magically fix everything for us? :-) </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hi, NoMas! I HAVE NOT found that "wand" yet! Still looking........ <P>Not doing so well, back in contact w/OM. So, I don't have much encouragement for you. I know, I'm crazy (more like stupid). But I guess you know what I'm going through, don't you? Guess we'll figure out sooner or later. Hope it's sooner and not later. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by momma (edited June 23, 2000).]

Hi to all my kindred spirits!! <P>TAMIS<BR>..your story has really opened my eyes. Did you and the OM ever break it off during those 9 years? Ever stop contact? I'm just curious, because this seems to be a recurrent theme running through our stories...we "try" and succeed for a time, then one or the other makes contact and wham, it starts up again. <P>I am only on day 7, and am so full of anxiety. My husband and I have talked about it and he simply will not open up his heart and would rather just push this all out of the way and pretend it never happened. <P>Arrrggggghhhhhhh! Today's a tough day!<P>to: "I'm the cheater"..<BR>Wow...what you said is incredibly helpful. Now it putting the force behind it for strength. Thanks for sharing that.<P><p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 24, 2000).]