The mind of the betrayer is full of cobwebs?!?! See example here!

Marriage Builders

A friend of mine divorced around Christmas. His wife had an affair & moved out May last year. He wanted to work it out, but they went through everything everyone here has.She emailed me a few weeks ago. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Chris, Just wanted to drop ya a quick line and say "Hi" and was wondering how you and the girls are doing. I know that it is probably strange hearing from me, but I was wondering what was up with you all and if you and Donna were still separated or what. Even though I am on the other end of the scenario, I can still empathize with what you and the girls (and Donna) are going through. And even though it was my decision to leave (as it was hers) I have and still are experiencing a lot of sorrow and sadness about the whole situation. Hubby and the girls are due to leave in June and I don't know what I will do when they are not around. This past year has been an emotional rollercoaster for all involved, as I'm sure you can attest to. If you and Donna are still separated I was wondering if I could get her phone # or e-mail address or whatever. I hope that you are doing well and would understand if you do not respond to this e-mail.Take care!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't reply until a few days ago. I just asked if she was still there. Here was her reply. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hey! Yes, I'm still here. Hubby and the girls left this past Wed. Retired. Didn't know if he e-mailed you or not. They are in XXX right now and will probably be leaving Wed. or so. They are planning on driving to XXX for a few days and then stopping in SD for a few before going on to XXX. They haven't even been gone a whole week and I miss them so much. I drove by the house on base and someone has already moved in - just like we never lived there. It's sad, but time will heal. . . I hope. The girls are doing pretty good considering. What's the word with you all? How are Michelle and Melissa doing? I'm sure they are getting so big. Have you heard from Donna? I would like to talk to her sometime or at least e-mail her or something. I hope you are doing o.k. It's a tough thing to go through, even from my side. Say "hi" to the girls for me and let me know how things are going. Later<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here was my reply, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>First off, please don't get ticked off at me. I am trying to gain some understanding of what has happened so I may seem a bit critical. Hey maybe I can help you too. I have learned an enormous amount in the last 18 months about relationships and why they work or fail. I found out Christmas night 98, Donna had an affair from Aug-Dec 98. She left 5 weeks later to live with him. We didn't have a whole lot of time to do anything. > Didn't know if he e-mailed you or not. I knew John was leaving around this time, but I wasn't sure when. > They haven't even been gone a whole week and I miss them so much. Can I ask why you miss them? Isn't a divorce exactly what you wanted? > It's sad, but time will heal. . . I hope. It's not time that heals. Healing comes with the understanding of what has happened and why and what your role in all of this was (I'm not blaming you solely. The marriage relationship was the responsibility of you both.) You need to look at what you contributed to the demise of the relationship (please don't tell me it was all hubby's fault. Likewise it was not all your's). How you failed to communicate your needs & wants to him and how he failed to communicate his needs/wants to you. > How are Michelle and Melissa doing? They are doing good. Michele went from A's & B's to C's, D's & F's. But as Donna says, "high school is rough. It has nothing to do with my leaving." Donna calls about once a week to talk to the girls. She's only wanted to talk to me about 4-5 times in the last year. They are moving every 2-4 weeks all over (except back here). Donna hasn't seen the girls since May of last year. We stopped by to see her in March but she wasn't there. She doesn't have email or anything. She calls whenever. > It's a tough thing to go through, even from my side. Again I ask, why? Isn't this exactly what you wanted? Why did Hubby and not you file for divorce? Are you still living with your boyfriend? Do you plan on getting married soon? I imagine you havem thought of some of these questions before. Please don't get upset with me. These are some of the things you need to answer if you expect to heal after all of this.Take care & God Bless! Write back! Chris<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here was her reply. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hi Chris,Wow, such hard questions to answer. Don't think I haven't asked myself them before plus a million others. The truth of the matter is, that no matter how I answer any of them, some people would just never understand how a mother could leave her children. That is something I struggle with on a daily basis and nobody knows my pain and heartache about the decision I made.I did not leave my kids, I left my marriage. When there is a divorce, one of the parents gets custody of the kids. In our case they went with their father. I could not very well tell hubby I was leaving him, moving in with my boyfriend and that I was going to take the kids too. I'm sure that would have gone over well in court. Hubby is an awesome father and even though it was the hardest decision in my life, I know it was the right one for the girls to be with him. Just because I am not in love with Hubby should not in any way take away the love I have for my daughters. I don't know how you can ask "why do I miss them?". Yes, I was the one who wanted the divorce, but I still love my girls with all my heart and I do miss them.My having an affair was not the reason for the divorce. There was a lot of years (all our married years) that looking back we were both unhappy about things in our marriage. Nothing that seemed detrimental at the time, but obviously was. I love hubby and always will. He is a good man and a good father and for that matter he was a good husband. But for me there was just something missing in our relationship. We just were not compatible and we lacked an emotional connection. And you are absolutely right about how we failed to communicate our needs/wants. Isn't that always the case? Otherwise there probably wouldn't be so many separations/divorces. I too have learned alot about relationships and what I need and want from one. Also what to contribute to one. Since our divorce, and my new relationship, I have learned what it was that Hubby and I were missing. Looking back at our marriage, I know that I did not give him what he needed on many different levels in the relationship. I know that I am at fault also. I never solely blamed Hubby for my unhappiness. You probably don't want to hear this, but I am truly happy in my relationship now. Although I don't know how anyone can be truly happy w/out their children in their lives, but I know that they will not be around forever. They will eventually grow up and move away and have their own lives. Whether that be a good justification or not.You just don't know the guilt and the overwhelming feeling that I have of being an awful and selfish person. That is just a couple things that I will have to come to terms with. I'm not saying this for pity, but I am just trying to tell you some of the feelings that I have. I'm certain those will never go away and I hate to sound so matter of fact, but "life goes on" and things must happen for a reason. We may never know why. I do know that I pray for Hubby and the girls every day and I think about them constantly.Yes, I still live with my boyfriend and the actual word "marriage" has not come up yet. I hope it doesn't for a long time. Right now I'm just living in sin I guess you could say. It's been a scary and emotional year (for all). I'm sorry that you are going through this too. I hope that you and the girls are fine and I will keep you in my prayers (if he's still listening to mine, ha). When the girls talk to Donna again, you can have them give her my phone # if she wants it.I didn't mean to write a book. Take care of yourself and the girls!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Needless to say, I could have written her response word for word. No surprises there. It really piises me off, so I'm gonna take a few days before I reply.Comments?------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

WOW CHRIS!!!!That was good. you know im a betrayer. I just tried to put myself in that picture. PRAISE GOD HE CHANGED MY HEART!!!!!She is dying in her own little world. Prayers Renee------------------ We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!

Awww Chris! I'm sorry you had to read that kind of thing for the upteenth time. it would be really refreshing to see some new lines wouldn't it? I'm just a bit cynical today and that turned my stomach too.

Kinda just makes ya sit there with your mouth hanging open, huh. Sorry, I can't even think of a civil response to her delusions.

yuck twice.

Unbelievable!

Hi Chris -Ooooooh, how interesting!!!!!Please tell me that you are gonna ask her what those "revalations" are that she has learned were the problem with her marriage......Amazing how there are no thoughts of filling him in.......Cob Web heaven!!!!!Big Hugs,ShebaPS - saw your update on D/D....thanks for filling us in - I have been wondering...... You're doing good!!

I must still be in the fog because to me she didn't sound that awful. I'm sorry but it sounded to me that she learned a few things a little too late to save her marriage. She's trying to make the best of the situaion she is currently in and not being very hasty about making another commitment that she's not ready for.

No, she is not "awful"....none of us are implying that Truthseeker......The "cobwebs" referred to are her predominate feelings of "self" and even though the love for her children and even her husband is stated....She fails to think that they need to be filled in on her reasons, feelings and newly learned relationship practices.Also, she states how her marriage was never good.....why did it take another man coming along for her to make a move to end it? Why did that have to happen before she discovered things about relationships....OK, even if we let it be a "given" that sometimes it takes such an upheaval to realize things...why is she not giving herself, her husband and her kids the correct kind of closure that is the healthiest....why leave it with the "ending with affair" atmosphere?Until she corrects things or even aids herself and her husband's understanding of all the factors in the breakdown of the marriage....it will stay with her, him and the kids....In other words, she has "faced" nothing!!!! Not in the healthy way it should be. Especially if what she says regarding learning about relationships is true, she should know that she needs to do this.Our comments are not "judgements" about her....just mere observations of the continuence of infidelity symptoms.Quite possibly, there are still many justifications going on.....Hope this helps explain a bit....just my opinion of course!!!Big Hugs,Sheba

Sheba, Your response was not among the ones that implied that she was awful. I think "..can't think of a civil response..." and "yuck, twice" certainly imply a dislike for the woman.As far as the affair being the 'ticket out'. Unfortunately, it often does happen that way. People tend to think that "it will get better" without realizing that they have to work on it. Or they think they can just tough it out, that it's not that bad. ANd then someone comes along that shows them what they're missing and then they don't have the desire to work on the marriage to make it better and they no longer believe they can tough it out. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> why is she not giving herself, her husband and her kids the correct kind of closure that is the healthiest. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And what would that be? If she knows what kind of closure might be necessary, she probably doesn't believe that it would do any good at this point. She's trying to move on.You are probably right that this will be with her for the rest of her life. She pretty much said that herself, didn't she? It is true that she hasn't faced it, not in the past tense, anyway. But she is in the process of facing it. She won't be able to give her H any kind of closure until she's done processing it.But she sure doesn't sound like someone who doesn't deserve a civil response.Chris,Please don't think that I'm trying to minimize the pain you have been through. But I can relate to much of what that woman said, even though I am still in my marriage and trying to work things out. (Yes, I'm the betrayer) Like I said - I must still be in the fog.

Sheba, you are so insightful....and it is just what you said that continues to gnaw away at me....Why is it that it took another person for my H to realize what "love" is... The funny thing is noone believed my H when he started with all of his baloney.... I was able to say "who's marraige are you talking about'....as were his family (mom and sibs)..so when that didn't work...he decided to say he's "changed", but into what we still do not know... The saddest part is that it is purely running.....away from "something" and to "something" else....The more things change, the more they stay the same. Which is why I am so thankful for this site... I will never be the same after this...I hope I am better..

tootrusting,I think your situation is a little different from the usual affair. Your H appears to have truly 'lost it' (He's the one with the 'mission' to serve with his co-worker, right?) I can honestly say that I'm not deep enough in the fog to relate to that.

That's just it though, Truthseeker....In most cases (and I say MOST, not all!), the WS thinks that they have "found it".....not "lost it"!!!!There are many reasons and varying degrees of "fog", but if the old relationship is not settled to both partners mental health satisfaction - moving on is the equivalent of running.Issues are left on both sides like wounds....eventually, in some way they will fester. There is no "moving on" when hurting others and their not understanding it fully......that's copping out.She can feel that she has realized all there is to realize, but if she doesn't realize the confusion and pain she left in her wake, then she has not finished with that part of her life.Does that make sense.....Hugs,Sheba

Such a typical betrayer response. No wonder there are so many affairs, separations & divorces. Much of society runs away from their problems instead of dealing head-on with them!

Just putting some questions out there. Truthseeker, do you have any possible answers? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The truth of the matter is, that no matter how I answer any of them, some people would just never understand how a mother could leave her children. That is something I struggle with on a daily basis and nobody knows my pain and heartache about the decision I made.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So why did you make this decision exactly? You think it easier to be with your boyfriend than be with your children? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I did not leave my kids, I left my marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>WHAT A CROCK!!! So where are your kids tonight? Give them a hug & kiss from me since you didn’t leave them. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My having an affair was not the reason for the divorce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So why didn’t you leave before you “found” someone else? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You probably don't want to hear this, but I am truly happy in my relationship now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don’t mind hearing it. If true, then great. But you sorta have to be happy because you gave up your children, your husband, your whole life. But then again, it’s really worth it as long as you are happy, right?This irks me so much!!------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited June 28, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chris (CA123): She wrote:My having an affair was not the reason for the divorce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah right!<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003317.html" TARGET=_blank>"Affair didn't cause it. It would have happened anyway!!!"</A> ------------------ Scandinavian scandinavian@my-deja.com

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just putting some questions out there. Truthseeker, do you have any possible answers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can offer my perspective. I have made a different decision for myself, but I could easily have gone the other way. I have the feeling that most here will disagree with anything I say but I'll give it a shot anyway. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "The truth of the matter is, that no matter how I answer any of them, some people would just never understand how a mother could leave her children. That is something I struggle with on a daily basis and nobody knows my pain and heartache about the decision I made."So why did you make this decision exactly? You think it easier to be with your boyfriend than be with your children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, not that it's easier. The decision to leave a marriage (or stay for that matter) is never easy. And when children are involved it's much harder. Given that the divorce happened (I'll address this part later), the children had to be placed with one of the two parents. She stated that her exH was a very good father and under the circumstances, leaving the children in his care was a decision she made with their welfare in mind. She felt that he would be a better full-time parent to them than she would. This must have been an absolutely gut-wrenching decision for her to make. Also, she isn't gone from their lives. She is still their mother, just not the custodial parent. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "I did not leave my kids, I left my marriage."WHAT A CROCK!!! So where are your kids tonight? Give them a hug & kiss from me since you didn’t leave them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Like I said above, she is still their mother, just not the custodial parent. She left the marriage. The marital relationship she had with her husband was not one that she wanted. This is completely separate from how she felt about her kids. Unfortuantely, the kids do suffer anyway. And then a decision needs to be made - stay in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' or leave the situation. She chose to leave the situation with the belief that staying in a loveless marriage was not good for the kids either. I know you will say that she could have worked on the marriage to make it better. She stated herself that she and her H had both made mistakes, but I suspect she learned that too late. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "My having an affair was not the reason for the divorce."So why didn’t you leave before you “found” someone else? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe, just maybe, she didn't leave before someone else came along BECAUSE she thought she should stay for the sake of the kids. When someone else came along and tugged at her heartstrings, it became so much more difficult to ignore what was missing in her marriage. It became impossible to stay for the sake of the kids any longer. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"You probably don't want to hear this, but I am truly happy in my relationship now."I don’t mind hearing it. If true, then great. But you sorta have to be happy because you gave up your children, your husband, your whole life. But then again, it’s really worth it as long as you are happy, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In her mind she didn't give up her life. She reclaimed it. She gave up her life when she married her husband in the first place. Now she has it back. (OK, I'm definitely injecting some of my own thoughts and feelings into this particular response. I don't know if this is how she feels about it or not, but this is how I felt when I was considering leaving my marriage) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This irks me so much!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sure it does. You have been incredibly hurt by what you have gone through. But that doesn't make everything this woman has said a lie or something from a fog. If it makes you feel better to think that it does, then fine. Keep thinking that. I tried my best to offer a perspective from the other side since you sounded like you truly wanted to understand. I hope it helped in some way.

Truthseeker is correct in a lot of her interpretation. Speaking from a betrayers stand point also, when I first told my ex husband about my affair and that I wanted a divorce I was so overcome with guilt that I was ready to give into any of his demands. I also had two kids and the thought of breaking up their home was devastating to me but at the same time I wanted out so bad. My ex told me to leave but to not take the kids with me. He told me I'd be welcome in the home whenever I wanted to see the kids but to not disrupt their home life by removing them. This made all logical sense to me. I was prepared to do this. What I'm trying to explain is that when you first come clean about your affair you are so filled with guilt and sadness that it is THAT moment when you are not thinking clearly at all. Here in my mind I was thinking I'd move down the street and still be there for my kids when ever they wanted me. Their dad would be there too. But, before I made that choice HIS parents and my parents/sibling told me not to leave the home. Even though they were disguisted by my having an affair they all felt that I was a good mother and they knew that my ex had alternative motives. They were correct. He had no intentions of letting me still be a parent to his kids. He found a girlfiend right after I told him about my affair and he had plans to use the kids to destroy me. MAKE me feel the pain he felt. Thank God for his family and mine that they snapped me out of the fog. I didn't leave the home and we went through an extremely long and bitter divorce. In the end, I fought for my kids and I thank God every day that I didn't "walk" when given the chance. I still built a home 2 miles from him and I still hoped that he'd be there for his kids when ever he wanted. It was him with the encouragement of his girlfriend to be a dad that see's the kids a couple of times a year and has decided to NOT be involved in their life. I agree Chris....how can a mom walk from her kids? How can my kids dad? The only answer that I have is that it's a decision made when your filled with guilt and fear and I can't imagine that their is a mother out there (or father), that doesn't regret it some day. In your ex's case I don't understand her anymore then I understand my ex. I guess as time goes on it gets easier and easier to NOT be involved in their life. My ex knows that his kids are well taken care of and they are doing really well. His girlfriend is more important then his kids and he's excepted that. How or why he makes these choices I don't know either.

I don't think we are debating her specifically, but her reasoning is very, very typical. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Like I said above, she is still their mother, just not the custodial parent. She left the marriage. The marital relationship she had with her husband was not one that she wanted. This is completely separate from how she felt about her kids. Unfortuantely, the kids do suffer anyway. And then a decision needs to be made - stay in a loveless marriage 'for the sake of the kids' or leave the situation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But those are not the only two options for the decision she made. What about the option of repairing the marriage? They already have children and a history together. We know from Dr Harley and this sight that it is verry, very possible to do just that. She chose to NOT even think about it.Rather than "staying for the kids sake" how about choosing to "stay for my sake, the husbands sake & the childrens sake'? As Dr Harley would ask a wayward spouse, "wouldn't the absolute best option be for you to stay in the marriage, fall totally head over heels in love with your spouse and have a marriage others would die for?"I know for me that would be great. How many people would turn down a winning lottery ticket? Yet so many of the betrayers do not even see this as an option. "I don't love my spouse & the love won't come back" but they choose NOT to even try.They weren't in love with anyone but their spouse for a long time & didn't plan to be, but it happened. Now they deny it can happen again (with their spouse). What kind of logic is that? It isn't logic. It's emotions talking. "My little heart goes pitter patter when I'm with my lover that everything else is irrelevant. I would rather be with the op than be with my husband, my children, my parents, my friends, my brothers, my sisters, etc. So this ABSOLUTELY must be the real thing!" <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also, she isn't gone from their lives. She is still their mother, just not the custodial parent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But they now live 3500 miles apart and on different continents! So just how much involvement is she going to have? Probably as much as my Wife does with her kids. A phone call every week or so. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She left the marriage. The marital relationship she had with her husband was not one that she wanted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But she said, "I too have learned alot about relationships and what I need and want from one. Also what to contribute to one." So why couldn't/wouldn't she even try ANYTHING to fix it before leaving to be with another man? Now we have at least 5 people (hubby, wife, 2 kids & op- he has to be with her when she's sad) with lots of heartache & headaches. [Sarcasm]Definitely the "easier" way.[/Sarcasm] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I too have learned alot about relationships and what I need and want from one. Also what to contribute to one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He is still open to reconciliation & she knows it. But it takes two to fix a marriage. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When someone else came along and tugged at her heartstrings, it became so much more difficult to ignore what was missing in her marriage. It became impossible to stay for the sake of the kids any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When she saw that "something" was missing in her marriage & she started fooling around and then moved out her husband told her he was willing to go to counseling and get everything on track. However, by then, as is almost always the case, the spouse "loved but was not in love" with him anymore.What she is saying is not a lie or said in a fog ACCORDING to her. But that does not mean it is the truth or real as the wayward spouse almost always the comes to find out.Her letter is so very typical. Almost everyone involved in an extremely traumatic inciden will describe things differently because it has affected them so deeply. And each will swear it happened the way they describe. But the fact is it only happened one way.The way I read her letter is the only thing she has learned about realationships is when the going gets tough, the weak bail out and start over with someone else.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

I have heard Dr. Harley say to the spouse in the affair, who sees divorce as the option out of the pain.....If you felt the love return to your marriage, and you felt loved and protected by your spouse, would you still get divorced? If you felt the way you feel about your affair partner towards your spouse?Most likely, the spouse having the affair would say "of course I wouldn't get divorced".... Then Harley would say "If I could help you and your spouse restore love in your marriage, would you be willing to try?" Most likely, the spouse having the affair that WAS NOT IN A FOG (is that possible?) would say: "of course I would try."And then, Harley would say "NO CONTACT", etc. etc. etc. - until he had the two spouses meeting each others emotional needs and not lovebusting.But, as long as there is contact, there isn't much more you can do, except wait for the affair to end. But usually, unlike Chris's situation, the WS is not having ALL emotional needs met by the affair partner. Chris situation is very unusual.It is very sad when the WS is SO deceived that they cannot see their way back towards a happy marriage at all, and they CHOOSE to hurt and divorce their spouse, and hurt and leave their kids. It is a true shame. Because, it is totally unecessary.TnT

I've been thinking about this thread for a few days.It seems to me like this woman sees either her happiness or identity as completely seperate from her commitments and responsibilities. I don't think she is alone and society condones this rational.Do people really think that the pursuit of happiness or fulfillment or whatever you want to call it, in and of itself is more important than the consequences of this pursuit?She almost has an almost helpless tone, like since she found this love and there were problems in her marriage, she "had" to pursue it because she had to be "happy". Like happiness is transends want or choice and is almost a duty.And the bit about your kids will grow up and leave anyway? Unbelievable. What the responsibility when you took upon yourself when you had them? If a person believes that their personal happiness, however they define it, transends commitment and responsibility, then is any commitment, vow, promise they make merely a formality or a minute to minute, day to day reality that has the option for weekly renewal...or not? Maybe as our sons & daughters are coming of age, we should check out their belief system and point out that they should be careful of any potential mates belief system.Of course this would not prevent all infidelity. Even people truly committed people can get caught up and swept away, or have the classic mid life crisis and redefine their values.However, I am beginning to think that there are a lot of people out there that have the same basis of thought that this woman has...maybe not to the extreme...but the same structure.What do you think?

I'm sure Chris thinks along the sames lines you do FHL, and I agree with you 100%.There is something in that value system that lacks conviction, definitely. I am beginning to recognize it more and more.I have a wonderful SIL that is going through the "life strategies" book that is popular right now, and although there are some wonderful points to the book, it seems that it is totally individualistic - and maybe that isn't how the Lord wanted us to be.Gee, just think if baby bottles hadn't been invented and the idea that you could pursue happiness (affair) and it was inconvenient to be tied to a suckling.... "It'll grow up and leave me anyways...." hmmm.When you said "Do people really think that the pursuit of happiness or fulfillment or whatever you want to call it, in and of itself is more important than the consequences of this pursuit?", I think I'd have to say (after my life experiences as a betrayed spouse) "yes."I am aware of this more and more and more as I observe human behavior after the experience of infidelity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> As Dr Harley would ask a wayward spouse, "wouldn't the absolute best option be for you to stay in the marriage, fall totally head over heels in love with your spouse and have a marriage others would die for?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But she doesn't believe it's possible. I'm still skeptical myself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> How many people would turn down a winning lottery ticket? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>C'mon, that lottery ticket is not a sure-fire win. There's a chance you'll win. There's a chance you won't. When someone is in love with another the thoughts on this are. "I already have that with this guy, why should I give it up and work my butt off to try to get it with the guy I haven't had it with for years? Been there, done that. Why should I expect it to be any different now?". What are the odds there? To say to someone in this position "But trust me this ticket will win" is going to make them look at you and say "Yeah, right". <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And each will swear it happened the way they describe. But the fact is it only happened one way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And who's to say which version is the way it actually happened? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And the bit about your kids will grow up and leave anyway? Unbelievable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is not an argument for leaving the kids. It's an argument for not staying in the marriage for the sake of the kids. What will be left to the marriage after the kids have grown and it's just you and your spouse? FHL,What you said about commitment is probably true. I think many people don't completely understand the concept of commitment and just how long forever is when they get married. I used to think that people who avoided marriage out of a fear of commitment had a problem. Now I think they are wise. They understand how long forever is and just what commitment means. Those people won't make the commitment unless they are sure they can keep it. Unless those who rush into a commitment without that understanding (and I do include myself in this description) who wake up one day and think "Wow, forever is a looonnngggg time!"I have gotten to the point where I am in the process of letting go of my feelings for the OM and I'm willing to try to find out if there can be love in marriage. But I won't wait a lifetime for it. From reading some of the success stories here, I'm beginning to believe it might be possible. But I'm still skeptical. And I wish I had a thorough understanding of what commitment was before I said "I do." There are way too many people like me who go into marriage without that understanding.

Quote:"What are the odds there? To say to someone in this position "But trust me this ticket will win" is going to make them look at you and say "Yeah, right"."When I read the part about being handed a winning lottery ticket, and you said their were odds...... hmmm... A winning ticket is already a winner! I would take it! If it is already a winner, what would I have to lose?Okay, well, the Harley methods have VERY good odds. Seriously.I read that traditional marriage counseling is successful 20-something percent of the time. Not such great odds, and with those odds, I think most a lot of people would be tempted to stay with OP.But, if those odds were at over 90%, wouldn't that be considered "darn good odds?"Well, the Harley counseling/methods (if followed) gives over a 90% success rate - how is that for odds.So, with CONFIDENCE, Harley can offer people the choice. Do you want a marriage that others would die for, or do you want a divorce.It really has nothing to do with OP, in reality. It is that simple. Those are the only two choices. THAT is why I stuck out my marriage as a betrayed spouse, and kept on trying. I am not sorry I did. I think it is totally uneccessary to choose divorce.AND.... One spouse can choose happy marriage. The methods still work. Maybe the odds aren't as great, but they work. AND.... if it is the WS that chooses the marriage, and commits to working on it, those odds are MUCH greater than the betrayed spouse doing the choosing. (I'm talking about when only one spouse chooses to try the Harley methods.)

FHL The statement about the children growing up and leaving anyway is a copout. Pure and simple. You and I have seen enough copouts in the last 1+ years to last 5 lifetimes haven't we? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I think in the end it comes down to priorities. When I had children I saw it as a lifetime commitment. It is a priority.Self gratification can be a priority too.

WS...yup.What is unnerving is that if you asked that woman if she thought she was making self gratification her priority or if she was selfish, she would say no.I mean it is one thing to know you are the most important priority in your own life and act accordingly despite the consequences. Those people are pretty easy to spot.I don't think people with this thought process think of themselves as selfish. They truly believe they must act on their desires just because they exist.

Chris, I didn't know you knew my x. These are all almost word for word things she has said over the past year.She said she didn't abandon the kids, but as you say who puts them to bed most nights. My kids friend's mothers seem them more than she does. Also those 1 minute phone calls to the kids aren't really relationship builders.If she is so happpy now, how come everybody that knows her says she is changed, that she is now hard and acid tongued, that her anti-deps have her so tired that she can hardly stay awake at the kids sporting events.There are too many issues here to respond too, as I got to this thread too late. I think the bottom line is that x suffered MLC, low self esteem, was unhappy in the marriage. OM came along, was possibly hurting in the same ways, and he and my x decided the way to overcome this was to run away, get rid of all their responsibilities and "find" happiness.There was no effort on either of their parts to to try and save their marriage. Staying for the kids was never an issue for my x, she was unwilling to do it, then I was unwilling to take her back just for the kids.So now she has attached her wagon to a multiple betrayer, someone diagnosed as bi-polar, and with whom she has no common interest(unless she has changed those too) and for who she has given up her children, her friends, family and religion.

Sorry I haven’t replied folks. Been at the <A HREF="http://www.smartmarriages.com/conferencedetails.html" TARGET=_blank>Smart Marriages Conference</A> in Denver. Spent yesterday with Michele Weiner-Davis in Keepin the Love Aline seminar. Only about 20 people in it. Tomorrow she gives a keynote speech on “the walk-away wife.“[in a deep, foreign accent] I’ll be back.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited June 30, 2000).]

Hello all. I’m back for the day. Running up to Denver tomorrow for the 4th. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>When someone else came along and tugged at her heartstrings, it became so much more difficult to ignore what was missing in her marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So rather than try & fix ait, trash it (Wait. Not trash it, DESTROY it with a vengeance!) & start with something brand new. Proves to me she learned a lot about marriages. NOT! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>C'mon, that lottery ticket is not a sure-fire win. There's a chance you'll win. There's a chance you won't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You didn’t read very well. I said, “How many people would turn down a winning lottery ticket?“ Okay, not sure fire, but a 90% chance of winning seems like pretty good odds to me!About stating for the kids I agree with . Don’t do it just for that. But if you are going to do it that way, why not repair all of the marriage relationship you can? You have to be around your spouse who will do nothing for you (which is why you wanted to leave in the first place), why not fix it?TNT, you said it correctly. WS & FHL. You both said it. I mean, I DESERVE to be happy so screw everybody else!True love is all about giving and expecting NOTHING in return. This is not going to happen forever though. If we give freely & get nothing in return, then the love dies. In a marriage we give freely and hope for something in return. If both spouses feel this way then it works out.RWD, it’s only a matter of time for her. People change it’s true. However, the amount of change our spouses have done in such a short time can only be temporary. If not, then they are really screwed up inside.The conference was really good. Seems all the people who have signed on decided the traditional way of marriage counseling sucks and marriage/families play a key role in society. And after all that schooling they went to, you think they would have learned it way before now? Anyway, they are promoting families now more than ever & trying to get everyone on the bandwagon.Michele Weiner Davis spoke on the <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks5.html" TARGET=_blank>WalkMy life.Listened to Frank Pittman (Private Lies) and his daughter as well as a few others.------------------ Prayers & God Bless! Chris For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited July 05, 2000).]

Hey Chris -Happy 4th to you and the girls!!!The conference sounded great....anything come to light that would add to our thinking around here?How was Pittman? Anything new and helpful that we might not realize?Thanks for sharing about it with us.Hugs,Sheba