I've been thinking about this thread for a few days.<P>It seems to me like this woman sees either her happiness or identity as completely seperate from her commitments and responsibilities. I don't think she is alone and society condones this rational.<P>Do people really think that the pursuit of happiness or fulfillment or whatever you want to call it, in and of itself is more important than the consequences of this pursuit?<P>She almost has an almost helpless tone, like since she found this love and there were problems in her marriage, she "had" to pursue it because she had to be "happy". Like happiness is transends want or choice and is almost a duty.<P>And the bit about your kids will grow up and leave anyway? Unbelievable. What the responsibility when you took upon yourself when you had them? <P>If a person believes that their personal happiness, however they define it, transends commitment and responsibility, then is any commitment, vow, promise they make merely a formality or a minute to minute, day to day reality that has the option for weekly renewal...or not? <P>Maybe as our sons & daughters are coming of age, we should check out their belief system and point out that they should be careful of any potential mates belief system.<P>Of course this would not prevent all infidelity. Even people truly committed people can get caught up and swept away, or have the classic mid life crisis and redefine their values.<P>However, I am beginning to think that there are a lot of people out there that have the same basis of thought that this woman has...maybe not to the extreme...but the same structure.<P>What do you think?<BR>

I'm sure Chris thinks along the sames lines you do FHL, and I agree with you 100%.<P>There is something in that value system that lacks conviction, definitely. I am beginning to recognize it more and more.<P>I have a wonderful SIL that is going through the "life strategies" book that is popular right now, and although there are some wonderful points to the book, it seems that it is totally individualistic - and maybe that isn't how the Lord wanted us to be.<P>Gee, just think if baby bottles hadn't been invented and the idea that you could pursue happiness (affair) and it was inconvenient to be tied to a suckling.... "It'll grow up and leave me anyways...." hmmm.<P>When you said "Do people really think that the pursuit of happiness or fulfillment or whatever you want to call it, in and of itself is more important than the consequences of this pursuit?", I think I'd have to say (after my life experiences as a betrayed spouse) "yes."<P>I am aware of this more and more and more as I observe human behavior after the experience of infidelity.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>As Dr Harley would ask a wayward spouse, "wouldn't the absolute best option be for you to stay in the marriage, fall totally head over heels in love with your spouse and have a marriage others would die for?"<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But she doesn't believe it's possible. I'm still skeptical myself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>How many people would turn down a winning lottery ticket? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>C'mon, that lottery ticket is not a sure-fire win. There's a chance you'll win. There's a chance you won't. When someone is in love with another the thoughts on this are. "I already have that with this guy, why should I give it up and work my butt off to try to get it with the guy I haven't had it with for years? Been there, done that. Why should I expect it to be any different now?". <P>What are the odds there? To say to someone in this position "But trust me this ticket will win" is going to make them look at you and say "Yeah, right".<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>And each will swear it happened the way they describe. But the fact is it only happened one way.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And who's to say which version is the way it actually happened?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>And the bit about your kids will grow up and leave anyway? Unbelievable. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is not an argument for leaving the kids. It's an argument for not staying in the marriage for the sake of the kids. What will be left to the marriage after the kids have grown and it's just you and your spouse? <P>FHL,<P>What you said about commitment is probably true. I think many people don't completely understand the concept of commitment and just how long forever is when they get married. I used to think that people who avoided marriage out of a fear of commitment had a problem. Now I think they are wise. They understand how long forever is and just what commitment means. Those people won't make the commitment unless they are sure they can keep it. Unless those who rush into a commitment without that understanding (and I do include myself in this description) who wake up one day and think "Wow, forever is a looonnngggg time!"<P>I have gotten to the point where I am in the process of letting go of my feelings for the OM and I'm willing to try to find out if there can be love in marriage. But I won't wait a lifetime for it. From reading some of the success stories here, I'm beginning to believe it might be possible. But I'm still skeptical. And I wish I had a thorough understanding of what commitment was before I said "I do." There are way too many people like me who go into marriage without that understanding.<BR>

Quote:<P>"What are the odds there? To say to someone in this position "But trust me this ticket will win" is going to make them look at you and say "Yeah, right"."<P>When I read the part about being handed a winning lottery ticket, and you said their were odds...... hmmm... A winning ticket is already a winner! I would take it! If it is already a winner, what would I have to lose?<P>Okay, well, the Harley methods have VERY good odds. Seriously.<P>I read that traditional marriage counseling is successful 20-something percent of the time. Not such great odds, and with those odds, I think most a lot of people would be tempted to stay with OP.<P>But, if those odds were at over 90%, wouldn't that be considered "darn good odds?"<P>Well, the Harley counseling/methods (if followed) gives over a 90% success rate - how is that for odds.<P>So, with CONFIDENCE, Harley can offer people the choice. Do you want a marriage that others would die for, or do you want a divorce.<P>It really has nothing to do with OP, in reality. It is that simple. Those are the only two choices. <P>THAT is why I stuck out my marriage as a betrayed spouse, and kept on trying. I am not sorry I did. I think it is totally uneccessary to choose divorce.<P>AND.... One spouse can choose happy marriage. The methods still work. Maybe the odds aren't as great, but they work. AND.... if it is the WS that chooses the marriage, and commits to working on it, those odds are MUCH greater than the betrayed spouse doing the choosing. (I'm talking about when only one spouse chooses to try the Harley methods.)<P><BR>

FHL<BR>The statement about the children growing up and leaving anyway is a copout. Pure and simple. You and I have seen enough copouts in the last 1+ years to last 5 lifetimes haven't we? <P>I think in the end it comes down to priorities. When I had children I saw it as a lifetime commitment. It is a priority.<P>Self gratification can be a priority too.

WS...yup.<P>What is unnerving is that if you asked that woman if she thought she was making self gratification her priority or if she was selfish, she would say no.<P>I mean it is one thing to know you are the most important priority in your own life and act accordingly despite the consequences. Those people are pretty easy to spot.<P>I don't think people with this thought process think of themselves as selfish. They truly believe they must act on their desires just because they exist.

Chris,<BR>I didn't know you knew my x. These are all almost word for word things she has said over the past year.<P>She said she didn't abandon the kids, but as you say who puts them to bed most nights. My kids friend's mothers seem them more than she does. Also those 1 minute phone calls to the kids aren't really relationship builders.<P>If she is so happpy now, how come everybody that knows her says she is changed, that she is now hard and acid tongued, that her anti-deps have her so tired that she can hardly stay awake at the kids sporting events.<P>There are too many issues here to respond too, as I got to this thread too late. <P>I think the bottom line is that x suffered MLC, low self esteem, was unhappy in the marriage. OM came along, was possibly hurting in the same ways, and he and my x decided the way to overcome this was to run away, get rid of all their responsibilities and "find" happiness.<P>There was no effort on either of their parts to to try and save their marriage. Staying for the kids was never an issue for my x, she was unwilling to do it, then I was unwilling to take her back just for the kids.<P>So now she has attached her wagon to a multiple betrayer, someone diagnosed as bi-polar, and with whom she has no common interest(unless she has changed those too) and for who she has given up her children, her friends, family and religion.

Sorry I haven’t replied folks. Been at the <A HREF="http://www.smartmarriages.com/conferencedetails.html" TARGET=_blank>Smart Marriages Conference</A> in Denver. Spent yesterday with Michele Weiner-Davis in Keepin the Love Aline seminar. Only about 20 people in it. Tomorrow she gives a keynote speech on “the walk-away wife.“<P>[in a deep, foreign accent] I’ll be back.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited June 30, 2000).]

Hello all. I’m back for the day. Running up to Denver tomorrow for the 4th.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When someone else came along and tugged at her heartstrings, it became so much more difficult to ignore what was missing in her marriage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So rather than try & fix ait, trash it (Wait. Not trash it, DESTROY it with a vengeance!) & start with something brand new. Proves to me she learned a lot about marriages. NOT!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>C'mon, that lottery ticket is not a sure-fire win. There's a chance you'll win. There's a chance you won't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You didn’t read very well. I said, “How many people would turn down a winning lottery ticket?“ Okay, not sure fire, but a 90% chance of winning seems like pretty good odds to me!<P>About stating for the kids I agree with . Don’t do it just for that. But if you are going to do it that way, why not repair all of the marriage relationship you can? You have to be around your spouse who will do nothing for you (which is why you wanted to leave in the first place), why not fix it?<P>TNT, you said it correctly. WS & FHL. You both said it. I mean, <B>I DESERVE</B> to be happy so screw everybody else!<P>True love is all about giving and expecting <B>NOTHING</B> in return. This is not going to happen forever though. If we give freely & get nothing in return, then the love dies. In a marriage we give freely and hope for something in return. If both spouses feel this way then it works out.<P>RWD, it’s only a matter of time for her. People change it’s true. However, the amount of change our spouses have done in such a short time can only be temporary. If not, then they are really screwed up inside.<P>The conference was really good. Seems all the people who have signed on decided the traditional way of marriage counseling sucks and marriage/families play a key role in society. And after all that schooling they went to, you think they would have learned it way before now? Anyway, they are promoting families now more than ever & trying to get everyone on the bandwagon.<P>Michele Weiner Davis spoke on the <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks5.html" TARGET=_blank>WalkMy life.<P>Listened to Frank Pittman (Private Lies) and his daughter as well as a few others.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited July 05, 2000).]

Hey Chris -<P>Happy 4th to you and the girls!!!<P>The conference sounded great....anything come to light that would add to our thinking around here?<P>How was Pittman? Anything new and helpful that we might not realize?<P>Thanks for sharing about it with us.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<BR>