Update from Ivory - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I did tell my wife tonight (Saturday). I almost forced it, so I wouldn't put it off any longer. It was a bombshell, naturally. She once had seen me talling to OP and thought at the time that I was looking at her with "that way" that apparently women see all too well and men think they hide. She kicked herself for not trusting her instincts more. As for the evenig: No screams, yes anger, many tears, but quite a bit of conversation as well. As such horrible things go, I would say it was on the up side if compared to some of what I've read here. But definitely much, much sadness. As she said about herself, she didn't deserve it, which is very true. I will try to post more Sunday or Monday. Thanks for your concern.Ivory

You did the right thing, Ivory. The pain and sadness is hard but the truth is so much better than lies. I know.Hang in there. Now that everything is out in the open you are on the road to recovery. Good luck. You'll be in my prayers.

Good job!! Glad that it went as well as could be. You have a long road ahead of you now, but a good start.Yeah, us women aren't stupid--and remember, that intuition that we are supposed to have. I looked the other way so! many! times! when the evidence was right there in my face--because I loved him and wanted to trust him. Now I feel stupid because I did look the other way (condoms in the backpack, weird little things his friends said, strange appointments and odd times in the day, ect.) Anyways, that probably means the same: she wanted to trust you, too, no matter what.You took the first step in regaining that trust tonight: by being honest.So good show. We are all hoping the best for you!

Ivory,Congratulations on doing the right thing for you and your W. I feel for her, I know she must be hurting.Don't be surprised if your W is very volatile for a while. Sometimes it takes a while to sink in. When you first find out, usually the shock is so intense, there is no room for the real anger. I know that I was probably very unpleasant to my H after D-Day ("unpleasant" is an understatement, my rage became worse and worse until I worked it all out of my system). Look at this as a testing ground for your marriage. If you can stand by your W during this time, that's more than half the battle.belld

Ivory, Glad you did it. How is she doing? I had emotions from extreme sadness to shame to anger. Guess how I figured it out. I saw them talking to eachother in public. She looked to be "in his space". I thought this very odd since he wasn't that kind of person. I confronted him shortly thereafter. I feel for your wife. If you feel testy at moments dont let her see it.take care cleo

Ivory,Good going! I'm proud of what you did (telling your W, that is, not the affair [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

).It doesn't surprize me that she saw the signs before; like I said, we BS's (not just the women) are not as clueless as the WS's wish us to be...As far as her reaction, I'd be really careful to not reach any conclusions for the next few days (at least). It'll take time for this to sink in, and she'll go through all sorts of emotions. She may seem OK right now, yet can totally explode a month from now. So don't think that you're on the way to recovery just because all you see now is a bit of sadness from her...I thought I was more or less OK after d-day. Now, I'm realizing that I just placed my shock somewhere deep in the back of my mind. Only now, four months after d-day, am I beginning to really think about what they did, and I am much more distraught about it now than I was then, sort of a delayed stress syndrome...Good luck with your recovery!AGG

Ivory, it takes caring and courage to do what you have just done. I am glad that you are willing to take the responsibility and work on the marriage.I think, with time and work, you and your wife will be ok. There will be tears, pain and heartache along the way, but the reward will be worth it all.------------------ terri CourageWhatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong.There are always difficulties arising which tempt you to believe that your critics are right.To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires courage.Ralph Waldo Emerson

Here are some more details about the events of Saturday night.Mostly a predictable response. Anger, tears, incredulity, shock. Pretty quick with "Pack your bags," but I understand. It goes with the territory sometimes. Actually, after that decree we talked for awhile. Mostly reasonably civil exchanges, some additional tears. I did stay with her as long as I could, until she needed to go to bed. The two major times when she cried I was able to hold her as she did. There never were raised voices. Afterwards I packed some things and left. She did have a few questions about OP and about our times together but not too specific, and pretty soon realized that she really didn't want to know and that it didn't help matters any. Certainly she is angry at OP, as you would expect, but I don't think she'll be calling or anything such as that. I did tell her that I knew she needed someone to talk to and that if she wanted to confide in a friend I wouldn’t object, just to let me know which one, if she would. I mentioned MB phone counseling but she quickly said she wanted face-to-face counseling. Tonight she said she had a name and would be calling Monday to set something up.I don't know how long the exile will last or if there'll be an end to it. I presume there will be, but in just what form I don't yet know. At times she was ready to end things; at other times she wasn't so sure. I’m just giving it time--clearly this is her time to control matters.She did not respond too well to the concept of my still having emotional feelings for OP. I’m not saying a woman should, I’m just saying that the concept of withdrawal was not readily embraced by here. She asked at one point, “Is it over?” I thought she meant had we stopped seeing each other, so I said yes. But when I brought up the emotional part, she said, “Oh then it’s not over.” We went back and forth on that a couple of times. I explained as best I could and perhaps as time goes by she might reflect back on it., and it will make some sense to her. As I had told the forum, honesty works in all directions, and that was an honest answer to my emotional feelings. The best analogy I can give is this: suppose you went to the Grand Canyon and wanted a photo of it. You have about an hour to get “the shot” you want. But being mere tourists, and amateur photographers, you don’t have the professional’s luxury of waiting days for just the right shot at just the right time in just the right conditions. If clouds and mist are there on the day you visit, you’ll get clouds and mist in the photo. But the Grand Canyon still will be the Grand Canyon. To me, this analogy applies in the sense of, “Here’s how I am at the moment, but conditions can become more favorable. What you’re getting is today’s snapshot.” I didn’t string at that analogy so much with her, but I’d be interested in what any of the others of you think about it. What I couldn’t do is lie and say that all the emotional feelings were gone.At one point I said, “I don’t know what chance we have in the future but I know we didn’t have ANY if I didn’t tell you this.” And to that she readily agreed. I did speak to her by phone briefly Sunday night about a couple of things. I’m self-employed and my office is in the home, but not in the main living area. It’ll be OK for me to be in my office at the house during the day, at least for a few days, trying to put things away. I don’t know what the longterm is for that particular matter; I don’t really have a place to put it all, but she doesn’t have any need for the space, so I suspect it’ll remain intact for awhile. As for me, well...it's a sad time. No way this wouldn’t be painful to go through.Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 14, 2001).]

Ivory,How do *you* feel after all of this? Do you want to go back home? Do you want to go into counseling with your W? belld

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: I’m just giving it time--clearly this is her time to control matters.This is a great point to remember.Where did you go to stay?I'm sure the OW is bouncing off the walls with curiousity...she hasn't tried to contact you?I'm glad to hear your W talking about counseling. One thing people should remember about counseling is that you may have to meet a few before you get the right chemistry. And, if you believe in MB, you might ask the counselor if they are familiar with the concepts or use the program.My first counselor gave me the web address.Hang in there, Ivory.Mike

Answering questions: Do I want to go back home? Emotions still are iffy, but as an act of the will, I do. After all, we have an investment of time in the relationship and if it can be restored it would be a good thing. One of the things I asked for when I left was a box of cards and letters from me--dating back to 1986--and as I read through some of them last night I thought, "Who *IS* that guy?" Very loving, upbeat, effusive...so, there's no question (nor was there ever) who changed in this relationship.I am committed to joint counseling if my wife wants to do it. Individual counseling is a given, whichever way things go. .... Motel 6 is where I am at the moment. .... OW has made no attempt to contact me.I'm heading over to the house in a moment to start to put my office in shape and to finish raking the leaves. Thanks for the concern.Ivory

Ivory,I'm sorry she asked you to leave. I would have if I hadn't first talked to Jenn Harley. Because of the concepts I was exposed to, I knew the very night he confessed that I wanted to save this marriage. That is why I had suggested it would help to set it up this way...Many here say that it is an LB to attempt to "educate" your spouse, but I think it always comes down to HOW it is done.My h had bought and read Surviving an Affair even before he confessed. He was a rock in many ways. Even though he was emotionally not there for me, he never wavered on his DECISION to pursue the marriage and his HOPE that we could get what we so desparately wanted if we did the right things.If your W has not been exposed to any of this, she may well feel there is no hope for rebuilding your marriage.It is hard to accept the withdrawal. If she were willing to come to this forum, she could learn for herself. There are some WS who cheated, but never developed feelings for the OW. But many of us have been where your W is.You can have that love with your W, but you have a long road to climb. The issues that were there before the A are still there to be worked on, but first you have to dig yourself out of the pit you have placed both of you in.How do you feel?I recognize your feelings to give her space to be in control, but I don't think being apart is as good as being together. Even when it is sooo painful, you keep talking. At least for me, I wanted to be with him, in the midst of the pain we connected in ways we never had. We were on a cruise two days after he confessed, and it was filled with tears (I couldn't eat), lots of talk, and making love...While he was telling me he was not "in-love" with me, we were reaching out to each other with an intensity that belied the words we said...

Schizzo,Well, my way of thinking is that I have to go through the withdrawal under any circumstance. Since we're talking about an eventual transference of emotional bond from OP back to W, isn't there a case for the W being nearby, to make that part of it more natural? But that's Mars thinking, and in any event I don't plan on advising her as to what she should do. I'm sure she will come around to thinking about this a little differently. I can manage in the meantime.Ivory

Ivory,I've been following your posts, but haven't responded until now. I'm glad that you told your wife. Now, the real work begins! You're on the right path!Have you told your wife that you have been posting on Marriage Builders? If not, I think it would be a great idea to direct her to this site. She will see that you honestly want to work on the marriage & that you are educating yourself as to how your marriage got to this point & how to recover.It will also give her support among people who are experiencing the same difficulties, from betrayed & wayward spouses.Good luck to both of you. It will be a lot of work, but it will all be worth it!

Ivory, So far it sounds like things are as good as can be expected.Besides dealing with your office and planning on counseling with your wife, what are your immediate plans?If the OW did contact you, what would you do? Since you will WANT to talk with her or see her, maybe you should plan in advance how you will react, so you are thinking with your head and not your heart.I don't know your wife, of course, but it may be awkward for her to contact you. She may feel a bit humiliated. Maybe you could seek her out without overstepping her bounderies?I have to tell you I had the most interesting mixture of love/hate in those first few weeks. I needed so much to be held, even though I hated to admit it or seek it out. Our physical relationship was also intense and passionate. If I didn't have young kids at home, I am quite sure I would have asked him to leave and we would have missed out on those weird, but very bonding times.Just remember she might be waiting for you to be a bit more bold and decisive in your approach.If YOUR decision is truly made, then even though the pain of withdrawl is real and debilitating, you can work toward the feelings you want and the relationship you need to build through taking charge of your thoughts, words and actions.

Ivory,My 2 cents is that you don't back down regarding wanting to work things out or come home and live together. If you do, she could take it to mean that you are iffy(sp?)regarding your comittment to work things out.cleo

The most recent news is that she does want to try and work it out rather than head right for divorce court. She did see a counselor and that was helpful. We talked on the phone today for about 45 minutes and it went pretty well. The counselor 's advise seemed to be helpful to her and she seems to be someone my wife can continue to work with. In addition to the practical counseling about the deeper matters she also advised that we try to do "non-heavy" activities together, like see a movie so that we don't associate all of our interaction as heaviness. I know this is along the lines of the dating concept espoused here. She is more understanding about the emotional withdrawal, although she still refers to how she can't see living around me while I am, quote, "Grieving for someone else."I am coming to the house during the day and working in my office, with her blessing.That's about it for now. Thanks for everyone's continuing concern.Ivory

Ivory,Your W's response is very normal. When I first found out, the very first thing I did after the reality of it sank in was to contact a divorce attorney. A marriage was made for two people, not for three, was my thinking. A lot of it had to do with my own ego, as well - what would people think, if I "let my H get away with it" and take him back? Love for a WS is hard to sift out among the rubble of anger, resentment and wounded pride. Give her time, and when I say "time," I mean TIME. It might take your W years to get over this - would you be able to accept that and do what it takes during her recovery period? belld

She has suffered through her share of years with me, in terms of emotional detachment, so I certainly couldn't make a case for putting a time restriction on her. In reality, though, we both agree that we don't want to continue to live like that. If we are to stay married, then we want to enjoy emotional intimacy, as it is supposed to be enjoyed between man and wife. A return to the status quo prior to the A would make no sense whatsover and is not an option, and in fact would feed her fears of dishonesty and cheating on my part. To stay married we will have to get back to where we were for about 10 seconds (smile) and then start advancing beyond that to palpable improvement.Ivory

Breakfast with a friend turned into an opportunity for more insights, as he revealed that he had had an EA many years ago. He had many good points to make about the true cause of A's as well as hope for recovery from withdrawal. We visited for about three hours. I'm still emotional but somewhat more hopeful today than yesterday. Had a reasonably good telephone visit with W this afternoon. Still not home. I filled out the ENQ myself last night, and left one at home for W to fill out, telling her (in a note) that we could compare results later. Of course, I won't look very good on her ENQ but that's not surprising, as I've not been meeting hardly any of her emotional needs (surprising it wasn't her that had the A). My ENQ did not reveal anything of substance in terms of EN's she is not meeting, which concerns me in the sense that one of Harley's main premises is that when the EN's are uncovered and met by the BS, the man and wife can enjoy the love they were meant to enjoy. If no unmet EN's are uncovered, where does that leave the premise?I would expect that in the absence of unmet EN's, deeper emotional or psycho-emotional factors within me may be at the root of the behavior. Hopefully counseling could uncover this, if true.Ivory

Can you give her a copy of SAA or have a friend give it to her? Do you think that would be an LB? My H is the ws and I explained the concepts to him and he was interested. That's how we got into recovery actually.

Some quick points:[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: Breakfast with a friend turned into an opportunity for more insights, as he revealed that he had had an EA many years ago.Be very careful who you reveal your situation to....that can be a monster lovebuster if it gets back to your spouse. Sometimes they then feel forced to take actions they might not have otherwise contemplated.I filled out the ENQ myself last night, and left one at home for W to fill out, telling her (in a note) that we could compare results later.First off, do not ignore the LB questionaire in favor of the ENQ. Secondly, you may have to take then questionaires a number of times over an extended period to expose the real situation.Mike

EN are simple and almost obvious on one level and subtle and complex at the same time.Of course you will be happier if your needs are met in a relationship. I believe you will also be happier if you are actively meeting your partner's needs.But as that bible verse says that in GIVING that we receive, I believe that with the exception of a truly dysfunctional relationship, the act of giving of oneself in the relationship activates loving feelings more profoundly than what our mate actually gives to us.Does that make any sense at all? It is hard to put into words.So if you look back to the time just before your affair began, can you maybe see reasons why you were distracted or dissatisfied with your life, maybe in ways that had nothing to do with your wife or marriage, and that you retreated into yourslef and stopped GIVING to your marriage...then things snowballed?Just a thought...And on a practical note, be very careful with the EN questioneer. You DON'T want to give her the impression that you think it is her fault that you had the affair. It might make her defensive.

To clear up a few things raised in the above messages...My wife was very pleased about my telling who I told. He is a mutual friend and a counselor in his own right, though in my case he just wants to be a friend.We did not ignore the LBQ. We took that last fall. None of it applied (i.e., no LB'ing going on from her to me or, for the most part, me to her, and still none going on). She was aware of the ENQ even last fall. We both had talked about taking it. There's no way she thinks I am trying to suggest it is her fault; I have made that clear.Retaking the ENQ? I suppose one could but frankly I don't see the point, in terms of revealing EN's that exist right now but were not uncovered by the Q. It would, of course, reveal *changes* in EN's (i.e., EN's that didn't exist when the test last was taken) or would reveal a dropoff in the extent to which she was meeting them at that point as opposed to when the test was previously taken (if that's what you meant). But to expect different results from the ENQ if nothing else was different...I don't follow that.The dysfunctional (me) possibility seems more likely. The giving-receiving theory has a lot going for it, I'm sure. Many people adhere to the do-it-and-it-will-become-true approach.Ivory

I'm not talking about faking it until you make it.I guess what I mean is more of an attitude. Decide what you want to feel and then think toward it.My point with the EN's specifically, was that if you think it is just a matter of your partner pumping you up by meeting your needs and that when you bank is full you will feel love, is not even half of the solution.Admittedly, when one spouse is not even necessary, that is what needs to be done.But I believe as we work to meet our spouses needs, not as a mechanical means to an end, but out of a desire to give, is the real spark that gets the connection going.Looking at it another way, if we wait for feelings to "hit" us, we are waiting with a cold or hardened heart. If we work toward how we want to feel, we have a better chance of warming up as we go and we soften our own heart and through that softening are more able to accept love.Any closer to making sense?

Ivory,I keep coming back to your threads. I think we want to tell you things from our experience that we wished someone had told our WS. It may or may not help...I've shared parts of my story in the hope you would glean something useful. Don't know if you have or not...I've counselled with one of the Harleys. I've read all his books and my d-day (and my h confessed as you did, many here found it in other ways) was Oct '99. So, I've spent almost a year and a half working through this stuff...What did I find in my situation? (As I said, it may or may not apply.)There were some needs I could improve on, but it wasn't that bad. I overdid Harley and blamed myself for his A even though he never blamed me - sort of like where you are.It was very important for me to know the WHY, so the more you can help your W, the better. I think it was maybe 6 months later that I stumbled on what I now believe thanks to a post on this board.The affair had a lot to do with how he felt about himself at the time. He felt like a failure and didn't want to "appear weak" to me. Now, we are both able to be much more open about ourselves with each other.He met someone who thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread - loads of admiration. The high feelings also helped him forget his problems (that is also where it is very much like an addiction to drugs or alcohol).As to his feelings for me - the first few months after cutting off the contact, he couldn't remember feeling "in-love" with me. He read his own diaries in disbelief.We wanted to rebuild, as much for ourselves as for our young children. This DESIRE carried us through that horrible rollercoaster ride.I think the love feelings, and our marriage is better than ever before, were the result of many things:Yes, I focused more on meeting his needs and let go of the resentment I had built up. The real change, though, started when he got serious about meeting mine. Like you, he had been doing an awful job. Yeah, why didn't I have the A? I agree with FHL, you invest more of yourself, you get out more.Not faking it. His focus was on work even before the A. He rearranged his life and priorities to address all the areas he had neglected. And he was never defensive when I expressed my pain. You too sound like you could handle this well. It is very important.You've made a big mistake. I hope you too can come back and make it better.Another little note. While some BS don't want to even think about sex, ours was great! It helped a lot through my pain and his withdrawal that we were on a second honeymoon.You said she was doing a great job on your needs: we all get rather personal here, this is a biggie. (and I think Harley is wrong about it not being in most women's top 5 - what are they crazy?)

Schizzo, to clear up something... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You said she was doing a great job on your needs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, I don't think I said that. She would be willing to meet my needs. She has tried to meet my needs. I have told her several times that no one could have tried harder or been more willing than she has--no one. So the problem is not her willingness or efforts to meet my needs. The problem has to do with my inability to accept, to receive, her efforts, whatever that is rooted in. Self-concept--more accurately, self-anger--is likely going to have a lot to do with explaining this, as you suggested.At the moment there is no opportunity to try the theory of acting as true what I want to be true, since I am not back home and thus we are not around each other. FH, thanks for the good comments.Today is a rainy-gloomy-cloudy-dark day. Everything is tougher on such days.Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 18, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: We did not ignore the LBQ. We took that last fall. None of it applied (i.e., no LB'ing going on from her to me or, for the most part, me to her, and still none going on).The reason I said to take them more than once is that as recovery goes on, needs change and some start to be met, and others don't. Also, hopefully, both parties may become more open and honest.It was the fourth LB questionaire my W took (one a month) that suddenly had a huge projectile vomit of issues in it. I think that she was feeling safer about being honest. Have you asked to move back in? I think in your shoes, a lot of people might feel guilty or think their spouse wanted "room". But I suspect that a lot of betrayed spouses would be wondering why the phone isn't ringing, and feeling lonely.... Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My ENQ did not reveal anything of substance in terms of EN's she is not meeting, which concerns me in the sense that one of Harley's main premises is that when the EN's are uncovered and met by the BS, the man and wife can enjoy the love they were meant to enjoy. If no unmet EN's are uncovered, where does that leave the premise?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My H's did not either...and we had very few LBs between us. This is not unusual in a case like yours, where you say you have been emotionally detached for years in the relationship. I can't say I'e read all your posts, so may be way off in your case, but that was the reason for us. After months of counseling, as the emotional distance lessened, is when needs and unmet needs really became more of an issue.And, a year after the fact, we are doing very well and very much enjoying an emotional closeness we did not have before his EA.Hang in there--KathiThat was a

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by kam6318: My H's did not either...and we had very few LBs between us. This is not unusual in a case like yours, where you say you have been emotionally detached for years in the relationship<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah...it is kind of like having frostbite....it doesn't hurt until you start to thaw...

MikeC2 I agree with you about the ENQ changing as time goes by. I did the Q early on and more recently and they were all completely different this most recent time.Don't have much time to post more, catch ya'll later.Cathy

Ivory,There's something about the tenor of your posts that alludes to an unhappiness isn't just indigenous to your marriage. I pick up on these things because a) I graduated with communications and have some grad work in the field; and b) my H's EMR was related to a psychiatric disorder - Borderline Personality Disorder, along with depression, which he is now being treated for with medication.Have you seen a psychiatrist to rule out the possibility that you might be suffering from depression or another mood disorder? I'm not saying this to flame you, please believe me - but I pick up on a lot of internal happiness, reading between your lines, and it seems, to my mind, to be more in you and your feelings about yourself and your outlook on the situation. Another strong hint you gave me made me think of my H's situation - weather, particularly gloomy weather, exacerbated his condition greatly, to the extent that he was unable to focus. If you haven't seen a psychiatrist, it might be worth it to find out if there is a possibility that clinical depression might come into play here. It's easily treated, and the efforts are worth the reward - my H functions MUCH better, with a combination of therapy and meds.take care,belldP.S. It's gloomy here, too - I take advantage of it to snuggle with my H and the kitties, and it's so comforting to be inside! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I have been treated for depression in the past, including medication. The sexual side effects were unacceptable, and only one seemed to help much anyway. There's one that doesn't have the side effects but it was ineffective with the depressive state. There are probably further approaches, and I might check in again with the psychiatrist. Generally speaking I am high-functioning, present evidence notwithstanding. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hello Ivory,I wish there were some words of advice I could share to help and comfort you. It is obvious that you are suffering and really trying to do the right things.Regarding the EN and LB questionaires, maybe right now is just not the right time for them. You and your wife are probably still in some stage of shock from what has transpired over the past week, and for you, the past several months. The problems in your relationship began long before that.To really be effective, the questionaires need to be answered without the emotions caused by the affair affecting them unfairly, and by looking back at what STARTED the distancing or withdrawing in the relationship. I think it is really too soon to do that. Wait until things calm down and the two of you have agreed to reconcile and work on the relationship. Concentrate on surviving and helping your wife get over the worst of the hurt right now.Even later, the questionaires might not change much or reveal anything different than you know now. Even the Harleys admit that it is usually not the spouse with the most unmet needs that has an affair, it is often the spouse who puts the least effort into the marriage that betrays it.It would be wonderful if every marriage fit into the MB pattern and thus could be saved by exactly using the strategies espoused on this site and in their books. Even in cases that are "outside the box", I believe MB can be a beneficial tool, but sometimes other factors need to be addressed. Your possible depression is one of those factors.I hope and pray that everything works out for you and you wife so that your marriage can flourish and be a great source of joy for both of you.Peppermint

My H was also high functioning, but depressed. He refused medication for years, but has done really, really well with a great counselor & meditation, believe it or not...

Have you at least told your wife that you want to come home?You may think that she knows that, but she will need many reassurances during this time when she must feel that she has no control of anything.Whether or not you are capable of real empathy during withdrawal, try to put yourself in her shoes and do whatever little things you can to make it easier for her. In case you have no idea what that may include, do what you can to make her feel good about herself in light of the ultimate rejection she is dealing with.

Wessee,Thanks for the words. No, I haven't told my wife that, but I have asked her a couple of times what she'd be looking for in me before I could come home. The first time it was that I had shown some initiative in seeking counseling. (I have.) The second time she talked about how the house was less stressful for her without my moodiness and without her feeling that she had to measure her words. So it now seems that she will need to see the restored me, and who knows how long that will take. Thus, I'm not going to bring it up again. In other ways she is supportive; in this way she's doing what she wants, and as a highly educated and forthright person, there is no reason to think this isn't something thought through. Even if it isn't, then we'll have to wait until emotions subside--if that's what's driving her actions--to see what's next. Meanwhile, the practical facts are motels are expensive--even the local Motel 6 can be $820/month even on a weekly rate. I am actively looking for longer-term lodging and also will have to find regular employment (I am self-employed) since I presume I will be on m own economy now. In many ways we will be living as if separated. Those immediate pressures obscure longer-term thinking and goal-thinking for the present, and also take a little of the sheen off any feelings of movement her direction. Meanwhile, I now can diagram for you the floor plan of Barnes and Nobles, which is the alternative to the pictureless walls of Motel 6!Ivory

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivory: Thus, I'm not going to bring it up again.If you want to restore your marriage, you should beg, plead, promise, cry or whatever you have to do to get back in the house where your Plan A can have some effect.If you want to restore your marriage, this action would be intuitive. I'm sure your wife is noting the absence of that desire by you to be close to her.People say that informing a spouse of an affair is akin to informing them of the death of their child. This analogy is instructive in one way -- it shows the need for details and honesty. But ask yourself, would you inform your spouse of the death of a child and then say "Well, I'll give you a call in a couple of days..."Ivory, I'm surprised that you haven't reported any contact with the OW. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't be bouncing off the walls wondering if her life is in danger or whatever.Mike

Mike,I don't understand the reference to Plan A. I thought Plan A was for when WS had not stopped contact with OP. That's not the case here.I did let OW know that everything was OK with regard to a possible lynch mob and I informed W that I did. W seems to realize that OW is not the issue. Two nights ago we had a fairly long talk about things, including my feelings for OW then and now.W doesn't want the moodiness, apparently, and with withdrawal comes moodiness, so what's the point of begging, pleading, and everything else you said? We are not children. I could "say" that I would "try my best," but everytime she saw me looking wistfully out the window she'd never really know if I was pining for OW or enjoying a pretty songbird. I think she's made her point pretty clear, and--again, taking the honesty part BOTH ways---I'm not going to promise some behavior I'm not sure I can deliver. There are times, I'll admit, when it feels like being kicked while down but I don't have the right to say that (although I just did), since I created the original circumstances. Let's put it this way: confessing may have its benefits, but they show up according to their own timetable and manner. The "positive" side hasn't struck all that much just yet.Ivory [This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 20, 2001).]

Ivory,I sincerely hope that there will be zero contact between you & OW in the future. You need to get back in your house so that your wife can observe (via Plan A & the POJA) that you are willing to restore your marriage.I apologize ahead if I'm wrong, but from reading your posts, I get the feeling that your heart isn't 100% into this.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Ivory}}}}}}}}}}}}}}Your situation sounds so painful for both you and your wife. And I've been there.And it appears you have each other in a Catch 22. Until you aren't feeling withdrawal & are sure you can be a good H (could take months) you don't want to make promises. Until you make promises, and your wife sees some changes, she doesn't want you home. It's really hard for the WS to show changes when you are separated because the BS often assumes the worst, WS still seeing the OP. The BS also becomes very vulnerable to an affair, I think especially if separated. In our case, after 5 months apart in our 7th separation, was Plan A to me during that time. I agreed to go back to counseling together & we bit the bullet and H moved home.If you want your marriage, stop talking to the OW and Plan A your wife. Yeah, withdrawal sucks, but people do decent things, even when they feel crummy. If you can't cut contact & Plan A, then you are damaging your marriage further and hurting your wife. Being in limbo/staying on the fence/having your cake & blowing out the candles--whatever you want to call it--will damage or kill both your spirit and your wife's.

Lor, Contact *IS* cut...I don't know why you thought it wasn't. The rest of your message I should print for my wife, shouldn't I? It sounded as if written for her. Your limbo, cake, candles stuff...all apparently under the impression that I am still seeing OP.Survivor, my heart is in withdrawal so it may not sound all that chipper. I am trying to do the right things, one step at a time. That's the ONLY thing that has gotten me to where I am. As I have said before, my intellect is frantically dog paddling against the emotional rushing waters. The breakthrough moment, the oh-my-God-what-have_I_done moment, if that's what everybody's looking for, that hasn't happened yet. But that doesn't mean I'm not willing to try and expose myself to counseling, to ideas different from the flawed ones I might come up with, hoping that through exposure mixed with effort on my part, that I can see things differently and begin to mirror that in my behavior. Let's accept, too, that some days are better than others, and this isn't a particularly great one as I head out to look at an apartment. Having to find a furnished apartment narrows the pckings quite a bit, and what I've seen so far is pretty bad.Ivory

Sorry, Ivory, I misread: ************** "I don't understand the reference to Plan A. I thought Plan A was for when WS had not stopped contact with OP. That's not the case here.I did let OW know that everything was OK with regard to a possible lynch mob and I informed W that I did" **************** I thought you were saying just the opposite.In that case...good job... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But separation is still tough, but my H Plan A'ed me back, it is possible. Of course I might have been a bit easy because of my own 18 mo. Plan A...though he did it better than I did.Best wishes. Lor

Ivory,I am truly sorry for the pain both you and your wife are going through. But, I feel that if you want this marriage to work, you must get back into the house. I have dropped all contact with the OM, I'm not in any withdrawl, and I try to Plan A, although not to successful. I am trying to make deposits in my H's lovebank, although sometimes the window is closed.Leaving is too easy. It's your house too! She needs your reassurance right now. If your not there she may think you are still with the OW.

PlainJane & Lor...I agree. If Ivory doesn't get back into his house, his wife is going to think all kinds of things, such as still seeing the OW, or doesn't care enough, etc. etc. A betrayed spouse's mind will wander in all kinds of crazy directions. I know that happenned to me!Ivory, please talk to your wife and try to convince her that in order to begin recovery, the first thing is that you need to be living in the same household. She needs to see that you truly want your marriage to be restored and she needs to see the new changes in you (via Plan A).(((Ivory))))

Oh, Ivory, *please* do what it takes to get back in your house, living with your W! This is SO important! I agree with the others, that your W is particularly vulnerable right now. This is a make or break time. The longer you stay away, the more damage will be done.As for the OW, if you want your marriage and intend on working on the marriage, please write her a letter, much as one suggested in Harley's "Surviving and Affair" and give a copy to your W. It is crucial that the OW know that there is zero possibility that you will ever be together again, and zero possibility that you will ever see or speak to her again. I know that must be tough - I can imagine that if I were under the impression that I loved someone else other than my spouse, I would have difficult time doing this. I'd have a better chance stopping smoking, cold turkey! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But remember my story? It can be done. And after it's done, you feel so much better about yourself and your life! By cutting all contact, you free yourself up, and you become whole again - a whole person, ready to save your marriage.I will be praying for you and your W. belld

More than hoping that it reduces somewhat the chance of the A starting up again, a better reason for the invitation to return would be that it could promote me starting to try and relate to her differently. This has been mostly an angry day within me, and that's not good for many reasons. I do think she has given herself some bad advice. She sees her counselor Monday; maybe the counselor will tell her that. Tonight is the eighth night out since the confession.Ivory

A few quick thoughts:To answer your comment above, "Plan A" is referred to loosely here on the boards as Harley's plan on meeting ENs and avoiding lovebusters to win back a spouse's feelings of romantic love. The birth of the concept was in Harley's writing about affairs, but it carries over into all marital situations and roles.To wit: you need to Plan A the heck out of your W right now.Rule One on Plan A is that separation hampers it greatly. Every minute spent together is an opportunity to demonstrate new behaviors that build love. Now, I asked about the OW and you said you had been in contact. In person? By phone? Did she call you or did you call her?You probably think the board members here are obsessed with this topic, but it is with good reason. To the betrayed spouses here, a WS living in a hotel reporting back conversations with the OW is a dagger in the heart. You know nothing happened...your W doesn't, and will assume the worse. Remember, her trust is shattered right now, and all facts will be interpreted to the most negative possible reading.Also, for your sake, each visit, phone call, postcard or email with the OW sets you back to square one in your withdrawal recovery. It is like coming clean off heroin...each fix sets the clock back to zero. Ivory, in your place, I would be politely pleading with my W each day to allow me back in the house. Even giving her the chance to reject you is an empowering kindness in a weird way. And one of these days she will say yes, and you will be back on track.Mike

Where are you? I am worried about you. Ivory,From a BS point of view. When my H & I were separated, I assumed he spent every moment with the OW, there was nothing he could have ever said that changed what I felt, if he wasn't with his family, he must be with her.My H worked in the same company as OW. When he returned I could never get comfortable that he saw her every day. We are still together barely, & have never started recovery. My H has always thought he would decide & that would be it. Well, it doesn't work that way, we moved to Asia but he was still in contact with OW. I cannot tell you how bad that makes me feel, I don't care that she might have been in pain or whatever, any contact is like another stake in the heart. Get back to your home, & no matter how much you still care for OW don't allow any contact if you want your marriage & Plan A for all you are worth. It is not easy but I still believe it can be done.

Again, thanks for the expressions of concern. For the record, I have not "reported back" contact with OW from my hotel room. All contact following the confession was reported personally to my wife. Yes, OW has been told that there can be no contact. We are not in a workplace situation, either (seeing each other). I'll be raking leaves over there tomorrow; perhaps there'll be a chance to visit again about the living situation. Ivory

Ivory, I haven't joined in till now. It seems like your afraid of what it will take to make your marriage work. Totally understandable. Your wife right now has upper hand. It is hard to do but let her. Others are right when they say you need to come back home. Right now she could be feeling emotionally and physically abandoned. she probably would meet you part way in rebuilding. Tell her that you will try your best to keep your mood up and be there for her, and you have been staying away to keep from hurting her any more. You need her too in order to recover. You need to see the woman you fell in love with and she needs to see you. She needs to know where you are all the time. Let her know that you will do whatever you need to to make up for hurting her. It is very hard to do but the ball is in her court. Don't push her but give her the chance to be generous. Build on what was right with your marriage. I hope you both can heal, and find your love for each other..D.

Just reporting that we did have a long lunch together today and talked about many things, including the lodging situation. She seemed to acknowledge the theory that this sort of detachment might not be a good thing. I also said that the immediate pressures of finding furnished lodging and getting a regular job were temporarily blocking very much "future" thinking. She said that she would talk to her counselor about it Monday night. I must give her credit for listening to the kinds of things I talk about, because I am honest about the fact that I am trying to obey the will over my emotions. I was able to talk about how I felt with OW emotionally and how difficult of an emotional pull that is to pull away from. This helps her to understand what is going on with me. We talked about many other things as well. Keeping the communication open is a good thing. Clearly there is a barrier between us and we both agree that unless that can be removed we don't want the relationship as it was. Hopefully, if I will do the work, that can change.Ivory

Ivory:You desperately need to write a "No Contact" letter to your OW, and give a copy to your W. It will provide a shred of sincerity to your W as to your intentions, something you really need at this point. Stick with that "No Contact" too. See SAA for details. ------------------ Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited January 21, 2001).]

Ivory,I second that. I too think that you should write a no contact letter with dispatch. I cannot tell you how much respect and love I would have felt for my H if he'd written her a letter like the one in Harley's book! I would have been over the moon. But ... he thought it was b.s., and refused to do so. He just told her "ti-ya," and that was it - very open-ended. The result was that she eventually became so insanely obsessed over the idea that my H might leave that she wrote a loooong letter to me and included ALL of her and my H's emails.He was floored. This was the person who "loved" him so very much! He trusted her! She was his "best friend!" Ivory, please nip this in the bud ... don't think that the same thing can't or won't happen to your W. My H's XOW seemed to be understanding and sweet and tearfully into the "Do what you have to do" mode ... until she saw that he was actually *doing* it. (!!!) When she heard that we'd gone into intense faith-based counseling, she went into orbit.Please don't take any chances. Cut all contact, and make it clear that you will never see or talk to the XOW again ... and let your W know. If you do that, I can almost guarantee you that you will be 50% into recovery! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

belld

Ivory,You sound to me as if you may be behaving as a bit of a jerk..... or are you that obtuse? You have NOT told your w that you want to come home? "So it now seems that she will need to see the restored me, and who knows how long that will take. Thus, I'm not going to bring it up again."I think you have decided that you prefer to be separated ...... thus the way is paved if ow takes the hint and leaves her h. Meanwhile you have maneuvered your w to ask you to stay out of the home by being cold as a fish in your approach to her after your confession.Why on earth would you tell her of continued contact with ow? Let me guess, "I am being honest."? Well, honest is NOT having the contact to have to be honest about.I believe that you are heavy into rationalizing ways to give in to your addiction (perhaps phrased by fundamentalists as allowing yourself to be misled by the devil). I hope that you will soon have a revelation and begin accepting help.

There is no more contact with OW. Anything I have told W about contact with her has been following the principles here of reporting same. I'm not sure how far back you read...I talked about lunch with my W, where we talked about many things, kept the communication open, discussed in some detail the lodging issue, including my telling her that I couldn't relate to her in a new way without being around to do so. There have been tears both directions today several times...unusual for cold fish I have seen.In general news...Monday we are looking over landscaping plans together at 5:30, she sees her counselor at 7 and then we talk some more after that. She also has completed her ENQ and we may talk about that tomorrow.Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 21, 2001).]

ANY contact is too much contact.Write the letter.------------------ Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Lemme tell you folks...if we're going to bog down over whether the no-contact agreement is satisfactory, we might as well shut this topic down. There are two separate agreements about no contact, one verbal and one via a letter. My wife and I are not having any prolems over OW contact issues. Anytime she wants to ask about it, she can, and I answer truthfully. Since the confession there has been one contact, from her to me, which even my wife agreed was for a valid reason. Period. Ivory

Ivory, I didn't understand you last post. I'm sorry, it's late and my brain is fried, but do you mean that you and your W have sat down and written a "no contact" letter, or that you're debating a letter vs. verbal? If this is the case, I strongly urge the letter. Read what Harley has to say about it, and why it gives complete closure.As for me, I'm still waiting for my H to write the no-contact letter. Telling the XOW wasn't enough, she still calls him and leaves nasty messages on his voicemail, and it's been months since they've seen each other - guess she's still checking to see if my H is still married and trying to ascertain if it's safe to start circling the corpse - mine, lol!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

After the no contact letter, change all of your personal contact information, and get an unlisted number. Just trust me on this. Hang-up phone calls in the middle of the night are no fun for anyone who has to get up early in the morning. Good luck tomorrow - you'll be in my prayers. In our church, we have a part of the sermon where we make prayer requests; the requests that are too personal to be spoken aloud go into the pastor's pocket, and we pray for the people on the list. One of those is for all of my friends on MB, and that includes you, Ivory (no names are explicitly mentioned - just the people on the MB site). Many people were praying for you and your W today, that your marriage will be healed. I hope our prayers are heard.blessings,belld

Ivory,I would recommend that you make a good case for moving back in.Not sure if it's in the books, but the Harleys are strong believers in fixing the marriage while under the same roof.You say you've been honest about your feelings. I think that is really important. But you could take one more step. Tell her clearly that you want to move back, and that you believe your marriage will have the best "chance" that way.What does she want? (This is where it was much easier that we had Jenn Harley in the middle). If she thinks she wants to recover, the best way is working through it TOGETHER.

Ivory, I fully realize that I am being hard on you, and yes, I had read the earlier posts. I had decided not to respond at all until I read about the lunch and thought there was some promise. Nevertheless, I feel that you are falling short in your duty to protect your wife from further hurt. I remember pleading with my h during his period of post discovery withdrawal for reassurance of his feelings for me. I told him that if he did not come through for me soon that the continuing damage would be too great for me to ever fully heal. At that point in time he just could not get it. Unfortunately, that prophecy has been partially fulfilled in that my recovery has been so much harder. His complete happiness for some time has been marred primarily by my struggles to forgive him, to respect him, to trust his judgment, and to feel passionate towards him. I also struggle to fully forgive ow (I have stopped wanting to see her bloody body sprawled in the street, but when I stop hoping she'll get fat and wrinkled, I'll know I've really made it.)I would really like to see you focus some significant energy on making your wife feel better as she deals with this. She sounds like a pretty strong person who is not grasping for desparate solutions. However, despite her apparent strength, I'll bet that she is as much in need as most of the rest of us were of constant and repeated reassurance that you love her. I'd also wager that you don't feel that you can tell her that right now. (Been there with my h) However, you can at least commit to a willingness to do whatever it takes to give your marriage a chance. Perhaps, you can at least tell her that you want it to be restored. I think that all the folks pushing you into writing that letter are doing so as much for the restorative effect for your wife as for the actual effect of getting rid of ow. Meanwhile, you need to continue to dissect this "relationship" that you have with another woman. Come to grips with what the real attraction is and isn't. I am not saying that in another time and place you couldn't have had something with her, but you need to evaluate in the present time and place and end it in your heart as soon as humanly possible. Now that your w knows about the relationship, the damage inflicted by your apparent vacillation will be serious and long lasting. We women are hurt much more by the feelings that you have for the op than by the physical trespass of extramarital sex.Get vested in your marriage. Our counsellor told us that the partner who has devoted less to the marriage and who has been less than a good spouse is much more likely to stray. Forgetting personal relationships and looking at that premise from a business perspective, that statement makes good sense. Why then do the bs's feel like such failures? Start putting your w first regardless of your emotions and her efforts to remain distant. Focus on her and what you can do for her. It will help her, and it will also help you to restore affection and passion for her. An extra plus is that it will help you feel better about yourself. Toss the pride (yours at least - help her to try to find hers) Focus on the goal of restoring a loving, committed, and passionate relationship with your wife.

Hi Ivory, Hang in there. You've been extremely courageous and deserve to win through. I wish my H had told me, rather than me having to find out myself in an extremely hurtful way.PLEASE write the no-contact letter, Harley-style. Our recovery has been severely crippled by ongoing contact with OW, finally ended a week ago when she phoned him yet again and asked if he wanted to end all contact. He said yes. But I NEED that letter, and I bet your wife does too. Otherwise you haven't made that vital commitment to your spouse, you haven't made your choice and you haven't burnt your bridges and your boats. A letter is irrevocable in the way a phone call isn't.The way I see it, if my H could put so much energy into his relationship with OW, he can put some into his relationship with me. He told her in so many words (I read the email and it's seared into my heart) that he only married me because he thought he couldn't have her and passively drifted into the relationship with me. He's been reluctant to break contact because he's known her so long (nearly 10 years) and he didn't want to hurt her. Well, what about me? Hurt is an understatement for what he did to me. This is less about hurting her than healing me; if he writes the letter it will be cancelling out what he said to her and giving us a fresh start. Your wife will see it that way too. If you write the letter, and follow up with commitment and Plan A, she'll really know that she is your first choice.Best wishes.

At the end of the A I did write a letter, one that was not uncertain about the no-contact. In addition, she volunteered that she herself would not make any either. It was not a Harley letter but it was not uncertain. My wife is aware of all of this. And there has been no contact sincer then except for the one instance I mentioned in an earlier message.A case can be made for me being more effusive in my actions toward my wife. Certainly I will try, and do try. You must understand that there is, and was for some time prior to the A, an emotional barrier between us. Neither one of us likes that, of course, but we both know it is there. That wall has to come down, clearly. It dulls effusive actions, but, as I said, nevertheless I will try to be more forward and playful and gentle and all else that I can. Remember, too, that even Harley says not to set the expectations too high during withdrawal. Who knows how things might be in future weeks? I have an initial, "look-see" consultation with a counselor today and left another message with another one.For what it's worth, while my wife is no different from any other woman in wanting and needing affection and assurances of my love during these days, I can tell you that because of her own strength of character and personality and because of her Christian faith, she is very strong for the circumstances (please don't feel that you need to remind me that she is still emotionally vuilnerable...I'm just trying to tell you something about how she's handling this). She says she has a vison of future wholeness for me. She is going about her days and responsibilities in a fairly normal anner, despite the inner turmoil I'm sure she still feels.ivory

Your W sounds incredible, Ivory. I wish that I were more like her. And I mean that in every respect of the word. She sounds logical and kind and capable - her inner strength dazzles me. She sounds like she'd make a wonderful friend to anyone.You are so lucky! Forget the OW and take off your blinders, hon - your W is wonderful!belld [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Bell, Whatever the problems within me, or the blinders, they don't mask from me her beauty, her character, her strength and so many of the other virtues she has. Without doubt, everyone who meets my wife loves my wife. She is an exceptional person, no question. Perhaps down the road I'll feel that I can publicize her web site and you can read for yourself the story of her life, how she got to where she is despite big obstacles. My having said these things, I'm sure that it make the occurance of an affair even harder to imagine, but of course an affair is an abberation to begin with. I saw one counselor today in an introductory consultation and talked to another on the phone. Both seemed workable and affable. I will pick one to work with and go from there.Ivory

What you wrote about your wife made me cry. Does she know you feel that way? Even though you had an A, your W is lucky in that is you who told her, you want to work to rebuild your marriage, make it better, you have cut all contact with OW, you have sent the letter, & you don't work with OW. Ya'll are so much further a long then so many of us. Prayers for you & your wife. Good luck with the counselor, why aren't you & W going to the same one?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...why aren't you & W going to the same one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She found one right after the confession. It turns out that both of the ones I'm considering know and like W's counselor and believe that they could "swap notes" over the phone with each otheras needed. joint counseling is always an option, either me with her and her counselor or her with me and mine.

Just wanted everyone to know that I am now living at home again. There are conditions, as you might think, but none that most people in this situation would think unreasonable. There is awkwardness and we have significant obstacles in the relationship, issues beyond the affair of course. But we will see how this goes. Thanks to everyone for your concern.Ivory

That is good news!

Ivory,Great news!I guess I'm just plain weird. I made love to him the night he confessed. The pain was incredible, but I had already been reading Harley and I knew ultimately I wanted my marriage and I wanted him.So he never left even my bedroom...I would love to read her story if and when you feel inclined to post the site. I too have overcome tremendous obstacles to be where I am, and these things made the betrayal that much more difficult to deal with...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ivory: Just wanted everyone to know that I am now living at home again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yay! That's great, Ivory.I know there are counselors involved, so I don't wantto step on toes, but in your shoes, I would be trying to get my W to take the LB and EN questionaires, so I can start to impress her with my new behavior.Mike

Way to go Ivory!cleo [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Ivory, you know what? Our prayers worked for you and your W. Or at least I like to think that they did. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It's good that you're looking deep inside yourself for the answers, instead of trying to rationalize them away, or think of pithy reasons that you got involved with another party. Good for you! This will make you into a stronger person. There is a lesson to all of this - learn from it. It's there for your taking.Now you need some time. Time to reflect on the marriage and the EMR. Time has done wonders for my H. Last night, we discussed some of the hideous things that the XOW did to me and told me, and H discovered that she was lying about a lot of things and manipulating his responses. He hates her now, and hates himself for letting him be led along the primrose path. He hates what he allowed her to do to me. But it took a long time to get there - and another fight, of course. He's now in the course of negotiating to meet some of my needs - the needs that went unmet for so long. Wish us luck!I'm so happy for you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

belld

:Glad you are back at home. Hope your road is not too hard or long for the marriage that you both want. Prayers for you & your wife.

The awkwardness must be tough. We did not exactly go through that because when my h's ea first began he adamantly denied an ow. He did tell me that he was miserable and was going to leave in several months (when school released for summer).Our relationship had been strained, angry awkward for many months before this. He had withdrawn and seemed grumpy and unhappy about most everything in his life.It never had occurred to me that his problem was with me. When he told me that he wanted out, I knew that he had been depressed. I thought he was just struggling with midlife crisis. I felt that I had failed to meet all his needs and had generally been a self absorbed maneater. I immediately began to try to help him with his unhappiness which I considered our problem. I felt such guilt because, while I knew that I been supermom and successful professional, I also realized that I had taken h horribly for granted.Although I didn't know about Dr. Harley, I had been applying his principles for months when I stumbled onto the love letters from ow. It was then rather simple for me to force an end to contact. Restoration of us (& especially of me) took a bit longer. I am generally a strong passionate person, but by the time of discovery, my h's rejection of me and his lies to cover for himself had just about destroyed all of my self confidence. I had lost most of the joy from living. Meanwhile, without the confusion of ow, h came out of his fog pretty quickly. Much later h admitted that part of him had actually enjoyed having 2 women struggling to make him happy with all the feminine means they had available. He says that he was miserable being torn between us, but the emotional pleasure from his ea was just too much to resist. He says now that he sees that comments form ow that seemed so loving during the ea were really quite manipulative in that she knew exactly what to say (and what to not say) to make him feel gloriously happy. Ow also knew what to say to make me appear grasping and desperate in contrast (I didn't know about her). H says that he had felt that he was her savior, He now sees that to a great extent he acted like a puppet on a string doing whatever it took to please her. Through it all we had a good sexual relationship and enjoyed each other's companionship. After discovery of the letters, there was awkwardness while h struggled through withdrawal - expecially when he struggled against looking at his attraction to her and seeing that it was based primarily on ego and self indulgence. (Counselling helped him with this. We were not able to deal with this ourselves.) Facing the real truth about the ea required him to admit some pretty serious weaknesses in himself and in ow. That was very hard for him. The traits that attracted him to ow are things that I generally don't appreciate enough. Ow was one of the few people at church that I really did not like even before their ea. I too have a tremendous ego, and the rejection was really hard to swallow.As usual this rambles on, but I do understand and expect the awkwardness. I was lucky in that my professional experience let me know intellectually (although it was really hard on my spirit) what to expect and how to handle many things. We did understand how important it was to treat each other as wonderful cherished partners as best we could even when we weren't happy with the immediate situation. That is not remotely close to "faking it." We just had to focus especially hard on what we could do for each other. Of course there were times when we ranted and raved and yelled and screamed. I was not always able to civilly contain the emotional torment. Words came from my mouth that I really don't believe I had previously even thought silently! On the other hand, with equal vigor, my h avoided conflict and facing anything negative about himself with all of his Phi Beta Cappa intellect. Do what you have to do to steer clear of both the cold fish presentation and the avoidance of meaningful interaction. Don't spend all your time together talking about your affair or your relationship with ow, but do spend a great deal of private and together time there. As ws, this will not be something you want to do. Equally important in our recovery was probably the vast amount of time we devoted to being together doing things that we both really enjoy. We treated ourselves with lots of time to play, watch sports, listen to music, cook, travel etc. Abruptly eliminating our church commitments for awhile (because ow is our music director) freed up a great deal of time. Fortunately, we enjoy many of the same recreational activities and were able to devote our spare time to having fun with each other.I hope you and your wife will be able to deliberately work your way out of the awkwardness and rediscover an emotional connection between the two of you. Just remember that what your wife needs right now may not correspond to what is your first impulse to do or say. You and she may need and want different things from each other, and it is important that you both give that due deference. If your wife always reacts calmly and rationally through all this, I think something is probably really wrong. Don't expect too much from her. I hope that she will not expect too much from you. But do take it from me, she should not be expected to fully accept withdrawal. I understood it on an intellectual level, but underneath that was an indescribable emotional conflict.Reach down inside yourself, reach up to God and reach out to your wife. She needs you now more than ever whether or not she shows it.

As a physician, my wife may not be able to escape her natural curiosity about disease and illness, which, in a weird sort of way, probably helps her deal with ths hurting soul she sees within me. She relates in that way but also, of course, as a BS. She appreciates my efforts at seeing if we can make it, however they may turn out. In terms of her reaction, rest assured it was initially anything BUT calm. But that immediate anger is almost gone, she says. I'm sure there is residual nager deeper within, but she is able to function without the surface anger for now. I am working through McGraw's book, "Relationship Rescue." It has some good things so far, but I'm just into the first or second chapter. I can't argue against any of your points, and I definitely try to be careful about how I am around my wife, mood-wise. We are doing a few "normal" things together; there's room for more of that. Her own counselor also advised her that we not make all of our time together "heavy." Unlike with your situation, we do not have a good sexual relationship at present and I'm not sure when that will kick back in; so much is tied to the emotional that it, too, would be pretty awkward about now, not to mention the possibility of the "performance" aspect being deflated, if you catch my drift. In any event, we will take that as it comes a little later.Thanks for taking the time to write what you did.Ivory[This message has been edited by Ivory (edited January 24, 2001).]

Ivory,Please let me know what you think about "Relationship Rescue." I've seen it out, and have heard very good things about it. I've just started reading "After the Affair," and it's a very good book for both spouses to read. The best yet, actually.In a rather morbid way, it's sort of heartening to know that there is a man out there who equates sex and love. As a woman, one hears so many times that men are able to have sex with just about any willing female they come across. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Sex is indeed a state of mind. It takes a while for the BS to get back to that state, as well.blessings, belld

Ivory,I'm sure there are alot more people following your situation than those that have responded so far. I'm one of them. Just wanted to say that I'm really happy that you are back home, and that you are both taking the necessary steps to work on your marriage. Keep it up.