I've always considered ALL women to be my sisters, that is, that no woman would intentionally hurt another. <P>Now I wonder if it might have been a game of 'break up a marriage and you know you are attractive/lovable?' So, my questions are:<P>Did you ever think about your lover's wife? <P>Was it a sort of contest to try to split them up?<P>When read over at The Other Woman, it certainly seemed so. Perhaps your presence here instead already answers this question.<P>Thanks in advance for your responses,<BR>lizpearl<BR>

NOT an OW but I had to respond to your post. You know alias, that was one of the main problems I had in the aftermath of the affair. HOW could one woman be so hurtful to another? I also apparently naively thought all women were my sisters. I thought we understood each other so well and really kinda stuck together. I do understand that in SOME cases the OP doesn't know the person is married, but once they do know, to continue the affair is unconscionable. I found it so hard to believe another woman would look me right in the eye and lie to me. I thought we, as women, had more pride, a deeper conscience, more morals, more empathy and respect for family than to deliberately and continually hurt another woman like that. I believed in a "sisterhood." No more. I look at women in an altogether different light now. Some of us have it,,and now I also know,,some don't. <p>[This message has been edited by Nerlycrzy (edited January 19, 2001).]

Alias,<BR> I think you've fallen for the NOW propaganda. You think all women are your sisters and stick together? What high school did you go to? <P> I wasn't a particularly trusting person before and this situation has made it worse. I believe we all are capable of convincing ourselves that what we're doing is right-no matter how it affects others. <BR>ow either don't consider what will happen or don't care-either way it hurts the same. I just find comfort in what goes around comes around.<BR>

I agree with AM HURT.<P>Both OWs knew he was married. I had invited OW 1 and her son to my home one Christmas eve 'cause she was lonely.<P>It was a shock to me too that some women could be so callous...

<B>Lizzie</B><P>Hi, just chirping in here. I have to second <B>You and Nerly's </B> words here. I too had thought about women the same way. I had always treasured my relationships with women and felt a camaraderie with them. The "Sister Hood." Well, not any more!<P>I now see all women in a much different light, and am hugely skeptical. I know longer throw myself out there as an open book and open my arms up. I am holding something back. It isn't a conscious thing, it seems to be instinctual. Kind of a survival technique. Sad but true. <P>I do have to say that I do not however, feel that way about the women here. Nope if you are Marriage Builder Family, then you are very special and trustworthy women. All of whom I admire and respect. I am in your corner anytime and anywhere. Just like so many of you have been for me. Now if we could all just figure out a way to meet in the real world? Boy oh boy wouldn't that be wonderful? <P><BR>Okay before I go on to make this one of my minor novels, I will close.<P>Love to You and Nerly,<P><B>Am Hurt,</B><P>I can see that you are a bit angry and I totally understand that. Been there, done that. I don't think you alluding to <B>Alias</B> as being naive or "What high school are you from?", as a very kind statement. Just because she had a loving perspective on women in general and felt what she did, does not make her from the dark ages or a victim of Now Propaganda. <P>Remember dear lady, that we are all here, we are all in very similar boats and we are all just trying to understand and make some semblance of sanity to the disasters that were dumped in our lap. We are a big family here, and although we are not always happy, we try and be! <P>The fact that these experiences have darkened our thoughts of others, no matter to what degree and changed our lives so greatly is a sad thing. I wish that I could go back to my old way of thinking and naivety. I think blindly loving fellow human beings like Christ did is much better than my new views.<P>Okay, off my soap box now! <P>I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{AM Hurt}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited January 19, 2001).]

Thanks for defending me Sam, but I was busy composing a polite and witty reply myself! <P>AM Hurt, I understand that you are bitter. But you just shot a little dart at one of the good guys. <P>I am a VETERAN here. I started the Women's Bible Study here with Taj because I was afraid that trying to save my marriage by using the MB approach alone would cost me my sanity and my faith in the Lord. <P>Am I naive? Have I bought the NOW propaganda? Honey, I am sooooooo conservative that I was brought up to believe that only whores wore nail polish.<P>I worked for Nixon's reelection campaign when I was 14 years old. The idea that NOW and I have anything in common is hysterical!<P>I work in women's ministry. I have since I started at 22 years old, counseling college freshmen. I have a heart for other women. I have worked the hotlines of crisis pregnancy centers and soup kitchens.<P>What I believe is that sin is all around us, and if we think that we are above it, we have just committed the sin of pride.<P>When I asked the original question, it was as part of my journey toward healing and understanding. I have done all of my healing EXCEPT forgiving the OW. I am working on that now. Understanding her motives and thoughts during the time we were 'sharing' my husband is important to me.<P>blessings, SISTER,<BR>lizpearl<P>

<B>Lizzie</B><P>Did I overstep my boundaries? I am sorry if I did. Somehow it was my "Princess Running Mouth" response to what I had read. I didn't mean to imply that you were incapable of sticking up for yourself or that you needed me to do it for you. It was just an impulse to <B>AM Hurt's</B> reply. So, in short, if I was wrong, I am so sorry.<P>Forgiving OW is a huge thing for me too. Can't seem to get there. <P>Love you lady, now do I need to duck? <BR>Big hugs,<P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited January 19, 2001).]

<BR>I haven't mastered forgiving her yet either. Wheww, I feel I've climbed a mountain just by abandoning the fantasy plans to make the rest of her life miserable. Did I say I'd totally given up on that? Oh well, at least I haven't acted on it!! LOL

No ducking necessary, Sammy.<P>And Am Hurt, don't shy away from contributing to our conversation, just know that I am not a naive shrinking violet by a long shot.<P>lizzie

I skimmed what was said...and was going to point out how I trusted WOMEN less and PEOPLE less in general because of my experience with my H's affair...<P>BUT one huge exception was the the dear women who have become my friends here. <P>Then I saw A Blessed Samantha was already on it <P>I have to restate that the women here saved my sanity and lifted me up. I feel a kindred spirit with many here...you know who you are...and if this forum went poof tomorrow and I didn't here from any of you again in this lifetime, I believe I would hold you in my heart forever!

Yup. Dittos. In fact, I'd bet that in a coffeehouse without any descriptions at all, I could spot you guys by your sweet spirits.<P>AM Hurt...say something...we are not trying to freeze you out. Speak up, girl!<P>BTW, I went to a fairly average high school in the seventies with 1600 students. Aside from a handful of 'trash' girls who dressed in halter tops and cutoffs with holes so you could see their bikini underwear, we all were fairly nice to each other. Them, we excluded...they seemed to prefer it that way.<P>liz<p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited January 20, 2001).]

I still haven't heard from any WS women...please help me understand her thinking. I know she felt unloved and bored in her marriage, she told me as much.<P>PLEASE, try to speak for her. I know she isn't a piece of trash, what would that say about my husband's taste in women?

In talking to the OM's wife, I found out that my wife would grill her with questions about the OM. What his interest were, his likes/dislikes hobbies etc. His wife took it to mean that she finally found a girlfriend that worked with her H. How devious is that????? And I was married to her! <BR>Not that it will ever happen but if we were to reconcile, that is one of the hurdles that I will have to contend with. The knowledge that she is capable of doing that blows me away.<BR>There are so many levels of naievity (sp?) that have been destroyed in all this. Trusting has gone to a new level with me... so much so I can't even reach it right now...<BR>mkn

I almost hate to step into this one...<P>I've not been an OW...but the guy I was seeing last winter when I was on the brink of divorce is now married. And, when he told me last fall he had married, it was like another wall sprung up between us...besides the wall of my own recovering marriage. I now intentionally see him first as someone I cannot have contact with, but at least for me, the fact that he is someone else's husband helps firm up keeping that distance, even though I have good memories--which I also am putting out of my mind. I know that I do not want to screw up my marriage, or anyone else's--that is a decision. <P>I think if someone (OP) does not hold marriage as something special--a covenant...and is selfish (Taker mode) with few morals or low character (or whatever emotional need/reason...) as well, going after a MP probably doesn't seem any worse or different than any other person. It's just "I want him/her" ignoring whatever relationship they may have, married or not, with another person...and the justifications are so easy. "The MP is unhappy with their spouse, the kids will be alright, a lot of kids are in divorced homes. I love the MP/OP"...etc. I don't think those things, but we've all heard that either from our WS or second-hand about the OP.<P>I don't really have an opinion on sisterhood, there are people (male or female) I trust, people I do not and the rest fall somewhere on the continuum. One of the women (another co-worker besides OW) that hit on Guard when he was separated is very nearly a friend now. I don't mind if we go out & she's included in the group, I can talk to her, even like her a bit, feel sorry for her a bit more, but I don't trust her.<P>We all know of romances that have begun between MB posters or BS beginning to date...sometimes it is difficult to see how vulnerable we are until we've gotten ourselves in a crummy situation. Not becoming an OW is yet another act of will, decision and choice. Some of us can draw the line in a bold stroke and never deviate. I can say from experience that justifying bad behavior can become pretty easy, especially when you are miserable. Making the right pro-marriage choice is not always easy. <P>But, you *all* know that .<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8<p>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited January 20, 2001).]

I am a WS, and an OW. I had an EA, with a MM. I think for a younger OW, in a PA, the answer might be very different. But I'll give you my thoughts. <P>I would agree, believe it or not, that I had and have a connection and responsibility to other women, as sisters. But I also believe in commitment and marriage. I violated so many of my own principals by having an A, it is hard to live with the guilt. In no way did I get invovlved with OM to break up his marriage. In fact in my case, I mistakenly thought, as we first became friends, I could maybe help him. I know, how wrong I was. <P>I have a huge amount of remorse an guilt about what I did. And second to hurting my H, the hardest thing to forgive myself for is betraying the trust of OM's W. Even though I didn't know her, I feel that I had a responsibility to her to respect her marriage, even if her H didn't see it that way. Obviously, I failed. I made a huge mistake. Even if he couldn't see what was happening, behave better, <B>I</B> should have. So I accept more than half of the responsibility for our A.<P>In some ways my anguish about hurting her is worse, because my husband knows me. He is motivated to try to forgive me. He is willing to at least try to accept that I am not a terrible person, even though I did a terrible thing. She, however, must believe me to be a terrible person and always will.<P>As someone else posted a while ago, the thing that helps me to understand my own behavior (even a little) is to remember that I did not do this (get invovlved with a MM) in order to hurt my H or OM's W. I did it for me. Very naively, blindly and selfishly driven by my wish to fill my own EN's. No doubt, if I had been a better, stronger person, there were far better ways to deal with my emotional problems. I would go back and change it all in a heatbeat. But I can't.<BR>

Hi Alone Alot,<P> Thank you for your post, it really helps to know that there are OW who are remorseful and humble.<P>As a BS it's so easy to think of all OW as coldhearted , mean women....I know that's not true and it helps to see the other side. <P>I wish you well in your marriage, and keep posting(if you want).....LU

Alias,<BR> I sincerely apologize for the NOW comment and the high school comment. Out of line, not typical of me and had a really bad day yesterday that has spilled over into today as xow again called and hung up this morning. <P> I too am very, very conservative. I am a college educated woman who chose to give up her career to stay at home and raise our child. Now that I'm back at work after 14 years, I am shocked at how different things are. <P> I have taken a job that is far beneath me so that I can still take my child to school and be there when she gets home. I have women who aren't as educated as I am and are young enough to be my daughter talking to me as if I were a child. They do not know I'm dealing with this nightmare at home, dealing with xow who herself has this same attitude that I'm pathetic because I choose to make my family my first priority, and trying to re-enter the work place. The adjustment has made me a bit or should I say rather sour.<P>I think we're finally on the road to recovery. When H talks of xow, its in disgust and the call this morning only bothered me. <P>You all are right, I am very angry, I'm angry that my daughter has been so very hurt, I'm angry that this woman won't leave us alone, I'm angry that I have this situation to deal with, I'm angry that I have been diagnosed with a disease that is so rare no research or treatment is available, and I'm angry at myself for taking it out on Alias. Please accept my sincerest apology.<P>

I am an OW so I'll take a stab at this. I actually came here (many months ago) seeking help to break off an affair and at first got very sound advice but then some people got nasty and I left. I now post on a board called "ending an affair" on another website. I actually came over here this morning to make sure I had the marriage builder website address correct as I recommended it to a fellow poster on the "ending an affair" board, who asked the question: "do I really have to sever ALL contact with the OM in order to restore my marriage" my response was: xxxx, YES! YES! YES! If you are serious about saving your marriage then "no-contact" is mandatory! There is a website that offers AWESOME advice about recovering from an affair. It is at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com</A> There is a board that welcomes WS's (wayward spouses) and BS's (betrayed spouses) alike and even the occasional OW! Anyway, surf around on that site....there is great info there. The message is clear....he says: "There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is NEVER seeing or communicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through the symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place." Check it out! <P>okay, that's a bit of background on me....now to answer your question. Yes, I most certainly did think about my MM's W. It tore me up inside. I feel like I felt more guilty over it than MM did. I am a Christian. Even co-lead a ministry at my church. This affair has thrown my relationship with the Lord in the toilet and I am not sure how to get out. I am making progress at the "ending the affair" board. So, if I felt the guilt, why didn't I just end it? Because the pain and agony that we each (MM and me) endured each of the 30+ times we've tried to end it, outweighed the guilt I felt. I felt horrible for falling in love with a married man and there was not a day that went by whereby I didn't hate myself for doing this but when we would try to end it, it felt like my oxygen supply had been cut off and we'd always go back for more. <P>I have never harrassed his W in ANY way. When we got caught the first time, I wrote her a very nice letter apologizing and vowing not to contact her H again.... unfortunately, he called me and the whole viscious cycle started again. I hate that I caused her so much pain but it's easier (tho selfish) to nurse my own pain since it is soooo real and present. <P>Hope that helps in someway. No need to respond as I don't plan on being back...just had to take a quick peek and saw this question. Believe it or not, I made friends here that I still keep in contact with via email.

I always knew I could never sleep with another woman's H. The whole "sisterhood" thing and all. Just unfathomable to me. What I have learned through life observation and what happened to me is the only thing less trustworthy than a man is a WOMAN! Yep, men lie and cheat but women are much better at it. They are sneakier and much more devious. <BR>Smiling to your face and twisting the knife in your back if you have something they want. I can even look at afew of my single acquanitances and see from their behavior an OW waiting to happen. The only one we can really trust is ourself I guess. How sad.

I have certainly learned from this that you can not trust anyone. No one, not even my H, much less the OW, cares even if my children have enough to eat. The OW does not want my kids around, and has done everything in her power to limit visitation. She encouraged my H to leave a well paying, secure job which also was close to his children, making it far more difficult for him to see them frequently. After only a few months at the new job, he was laid off, and he has been out of work for almost 9 months now. Consequently, he pays little child support and I do not have enough money to pay for shelter, housing and utilities. His children visit for approximately 4 hours once a month. He treats his children as if he is ashamed of them; he is convinced that their behavior is abnormal, even though others tell me that they are very well behaved. He never felt this way before he started living with her. She will not allow him to go to parent teacher conferences, medical appoointments for the children, etc. Yes, he should tell her where to get off, but he won't, because without her he would be homeless, whereas with her he can live an upper-middle class lifestyle while unemployed. <P>She has the means to get whatever she wants, and that is all that matters to her. <P>

BTW, I agreed with the part about how it came home to me that some women can be so cruel.<P>Nellie - I've read many times how hard this is on you and I hope you can upgrade your job skills and provide without the bum.<P>It seems like if we as BS often suffer from low self-esteem, how low must the OW feel to latch on to a MM? So I do have a tad of compassion for mine. As to Nellie's OW, she must feel really low to WANT an unemployed, irresponsible bum. (Or did she do this to him? I remember he used to work pretty well.)<P>alias, you said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PLEASE, try to speak for her. I know she isn't a piece of trash, what would that say about my husband's taste in women?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's very interesting. While selfish and immoral, I found that neither OW were "trash", and I too was somewhat relieved he at least showed some taste. I COULD HAVE been friends with her. Not now, of course.<P>Is that weird to feel relieved? I also found some relief in that he was himself - he didn't ever have anything negative to say about me, and he even tried to convert her to Christianity.<P>

schizzo,<P>Yes, this transformation occurred after he started living with the OW. My H had never been irresponsible. He had only be out of a job for about a month and a half during the 24 years we were together, and even then he willingly took a minimum wage, physically demanding job with awful hours to tide us over. <P>It actually isn't really a case of upgrading my job skills. I earn a pretty good salary, good enough that finding a better job is not a piece of cake. I am looking for a full-time job, but it will be terribly difficult with four kids at home, including one with special needs, and absolutely no one as back-up. I recently read in the paper that in this area, in order to support a family of 4 living in a house of average rent, a person earning minimum wage would have to work well over 100 hours a week!

Hi Alias,<P>I am an OW, and would like to try to answer your questions, to help if I can. I lurk here but have never posted before, out of respect. So, this is at the risk of being blasted, but I'm trying to be honest, if it can help...<P>I do think of his wife, and wierd as it may sound - unbelievable - I DO care and want her not to be hurt.<P>This also is not something typical for me, of me. I have always tried to live my life by being a good person, doing the right thing, but this one man was someone who had been very special to me from my past, not just some married man I met, if you can understand.<P>I do not see this as some kind of game or contest, it's definately not where I am just out to prove I can "get him" or whatever. From what I've read lurking on boards for betrayed spouses it is very hard for them to understand that this is generally not about THEM for the OP. I didn't enter into this situation BECAUSE he was married, or to prove anything, or to get some kind of sick ego statisfaction in regards to her.<P>I actually tend to be more protective as far as her feelings and her finding out than he is, possibly because I am a woman because I know he does care about her.<P>It's truly not about her at all for me, in any kind of motivation as you suggest. It is difficult for me because I do love him very much and I struggle with that. It is more comparable to being placed in a situation between someone you know and care about deeply and someone you do not know. Not a comfortable choice, and I'm not saying it's the right one, I'm not defending that, but only trying to give you more honest perspective. Do I walk away from someone I love and hurt him for someone I do not and who does not know me? Certainly that would be the right and moral thing, but I think this is closer to what OW's go through. It's not generally motivated by wanting to hurt some wife you don't know just for the sport of it, or to "get" some man away from another woman just because you think it's fun.<P>Alonealot said it well too, I think. I do care about his wife, I do want her not to be hurt, and I do hope this ends in a way that that is possible. I do care about marriage and family, it does matter to me (does that sound rediculous coming from me?). I do not want his family torn apart because of me, I couldn't bear that.<P>And yes, before you ask, I did try to influence him to work on his marriage, did try to advise him. As silly as it sounds there have been times when he's vented a bit to me (only rarely) and I have taken her side, trying to explain how it might be from her point of view, how he could perhaps react better.<P>It's all so twisted and difficult. Love sometimes leads us to doing dumb things and making bad choices, as well as hanging on too long. It's just hard to walk away from someone you love who does love you too, even when he loves someone else as well and there is no real future.<P>Ok, be easy on me, I truly do just want to help, if I can even in a small way.<P>Juanita

Juanita, <P>If he really "loved" you, then he would not be using you. If he really loved his wife, then he would not be betraying her. I think that the one that he really "loves" is himself.<P>I think it is interesting how OP twist the word "love" to mean what they want. Love is not something you feel. It's not something that you say. It's something that you actively do. It is selfless and giving. It doesn't seek it's own needs. It is a promise and a commitment that one holds to, no matter what. It's sacrifice. It's esteeming one's children enough to do what's right for them. It's self-respect and respect for others.<P>It's not a warm fuzzy or jungle animal passion. You can concoct that out of anywhere, your own fantasies. Life is not a Harlequin romance.

alone alot - thank you for your words. In reading it I could almost imagine the OW involved with my H having written it. It is her style and with her level of eloquence.<BR>I have often wondered what she would say about the A now and somehow your post has answered that question. <P>I have never really hated her, just questioned how she could care about my H and care so little for the one thing in his life that meant most to him-his family. But I understand that sometimes reality has a hard time competing when strong emotions are involved. I was also angry at my H because from the things that he told me, the OW and I could have become great friends having so many things in our lives in common. I feel as if he/they robbed us of that. And who knows perhaps the two of us could have helped each other...but that is something now that I will never know.<P>Consider yourself blessed that you could stand back and really discover the how and whys the A took place. My wish for you is that you will find yourself and discover the things in life that can truly make you happy and surround yourself with them. In doing so you will find peace.

Bernzini you say "Love is not something you feel. It's not something that you say. It's something that you actively do. It is selfless and giving. It doesn't seek it's own needs. It is a promise and a commitment that one holds to, no matter what. It's sacrifice. It's esteeming one's children enough to do what's right for them. It's self-respect and respect for others. It's not a warm fuzzy or jungle animal passion. You can concoct that out of anywhere, your own fantasies. Life is not a Harlequin romance<P>You are right and I agree with you. I do know what real love is, and you put it very well.<P>I posted only in the sincere hope that what I had to share might be of some small or partial help to someone else. Alias asked some sincere questions, and I felt she deserved to hear some sincere attempts to answer them, so I tried for her. <P>Thanks for sharing your thoughts about love, you are correct I believe and perhaps seeing this put so well from you may be helpful to someone.<P>Juanita<P><p>[This message has been edited by Juanita (edited January 24, 2001).]

Juanita - I genuinely thank you for your insight. I can't say that I understand...I might be able to empathize, but I will not judge. Nah, I'll save the brunt of my temper for my H's XOW Actually, she is the stereotypical "stalker" OW, who pursued MM for what she thought they could give her. I will <B>never</B> respect that kind of woman.<P>I hope that one day you'll find true happiness...no woman on this planet should have to share a man. I don't care if there are more women than men! And when you do, maybe you can come back for the fabulous "marriage coaching" that they offer here. Bonne chance!

My relationship with my H started off as close to my being an OW as it could get - only I didn't know it. I knew that H was living with another woman, but he told that they'd broken up and were staying together to complete the lease. It wasn't too impossible to believe, as it's very difficult to find a place to live in this city - takes 3-6 months. Also, I'd had single friends who were still living with their X-BFs for the same reason. I don't know why other big red warning flags didn't fly by - in retrospect, they were all there (always called on his cell phone, had a private p.o. box, etc.) But I never thought that another human was capable of lying. Also, at the time, we were just "dating," and I didn't think it would turn into anything serious, to be honest. We didn't have the level of intensity in our relationship or in the frequency that we saw each other that I should have known a lot about H's personal life. <P>As it turned out, to H's mind, they *had* broken up - too bad he forgot to tell his fiancee about it. She still thought that they were engaged and everything was fine. I later found out after H and I were married that while we were seeing each other, H went to his fiancee's parents and asked them for her hand in marriage. (!!!)<P>I found all of this out, in great detail, too late. By the time she had found out about "us" (mind you, all of this transpired when I didn't even know about it) and the whole thing blew up in my face, I was already committed - engaged - to a man that I should have never been committed to. <P>How do I feel about it?<P>I wish I would have known from the start, so I could have called his fiancee up and told her. I think about when we first met, and how he kissed me at a party - she was in the same house in a different room, d*mn his hide! - and I want to block it all out. I felt like scum. I felt dirty and diseased. I felt as though I'd sacrificed every principle I'd ever believed in. I cried a lot, thinking about the way she (ex-fiancee) must have felt. I later wrote a heartfelt apology letter to her, telling her my side of the story and offering to answer any questions she had. I apologized for my H, because I knew he'd never do it. I can't even think about when I first met and started "dating" my H, because it makes me feel ill. It's like a big joke to me, nothing about it is real. For the longest time, after the shock wore off and the newness of our marriage wore off, I found that I disrespected him. He just didn't command the same loyalty as a man who had entered into a relationship clear and free. <P>All of those things that Pittman writes about in "Private Lies?" Very true. I didn't realize how much we fit into that nook of couples who don't have a chance in h*ll until I read that book. It's almost impossible to build a marriage on deceit. H lost almost all of his friends, and I lost a lot of mine, after the truth came out. H got fired because his boss knew his ex-fiancee, and they worked at the same place, and it was too hard for his boss to have both working there. Obviously, he was going to fire the cheater. H lies when people ask how we met, and I just say that it's too painful for me to discuss. We can never tell our children how we met - not really, not without lying to them. Of course, we got involved too quickly, and H didn't have time to sort things through. So when the same dynamic emerged in our marriage that had emerged in his engagement, he sulked, pouted, got angry, blamed me. He never really looked to see why *he* was to blame.<P>You never have "clean" memories of your courtship - well, H does, but I do not.<P>Of course, I never trusted him, either - and guess what? I was right not to trust him, he later had an EMR on me. And the way he did it was eerily familiar - told the XOW that we were separated and getting a divorce, trading business cards, seeing her at lunch at out of the way places ... the same d*mned thing, all over again. He even met her under similar circumstances. <P>So if you ask me how I felt about my part in it? Sick. Sick, because I had NO choice and NO real knowledge. Sick, because I didn't get a chance to tell his fiancee when she should have known. If I'd have known all of the details, I am utterly sure that any passion or interest I felt for my H would have quickly turned to revulsion.<P>I hope that his ex-fiancee found out about H's EMR, and that she kicks up her heels. I hope that the thought of my misery and pain gives her some measure of satisfaction and closure. Even for my inadvertant participation, I deserve it. I should have been wiser and not so young and trusting. I should have asked more questions and acted like a responsible adult by telling her.<P>I know that I digressed, but that's the honest truth.<P>belld

Carolina Belle, thank you for your kind words.<P>I know what you mean about the type person your husband's XOW is, I have known people like that and can't respect them either. The affair was horrible enough no doubt. I hope that doesn't sound hypocritical coming from me. Thanks for not judging me or assuming I was of that caliber, and for your empathy (or the attempt if you couldn't quite make it ). I appreciate your generosity of spirit.<P>Even now I've learned lurking here, it's a good place, with good people. Hopefully it will help me have an even better chance for a future healthy relationship with someone special.<P>Wishing you the best <P>Juanita

What I don't understand is, why, if one knows that the affair is wrong and has the intelligence and the understanding that they are hurting someone (yes, someone they don't know) why do they keep on? I mean, if someone gives you a toadstool sandwich, tells you it's a snickers bar, and you know it's a toadstool sandwich--do you take a bite out it because you're addicted to snickers bars? Please don't tell me it's an addiction. I just don't buy it anymore.<P>Maybe I was a bit nasty with my reply earlier. I am having a hard time controlling my temper these days, and maybe I should leave the board for a while until I can think clearly. I think that I will do that, because, although I have shown a lot of sympathy and forgiviness toward wayward spouses in the past since I have started looking at this board, I have a hard time doing that now.<P>I am no better than anyone else, let me assure you. I once had an EA with a very single young man in my first marriage, callously hurting my husband. However, as many times as I was propositioned by married men to fool around, never, ever could I hurt another woman by messing with her husband. (Some of these would have even been tempting under other circumstances, but by the simple fact that he was married and seeking additional affection really quite disgusted me out of having anything to do with him.)<P>But, you see, in the name of "love," my husband abandoned me and our little boy. That's one thing. I have him to blame.<P>But OW knew what the deal was all along. Her idea of "encouraging" my husband to return to me was to ask him questions like "Are you SURE that you are really happy, nanouscka?" or "You haven't asked my for sex lately, it must be going well with you and your wife." That's so nice of her to think of me. (I saw her e-mails.)<P>No, she does not "know" me. If she did, she would probably know the pain and heartache that my husband has put me through for the last 7 years with his verbal abuse and temper tantrums and jealousy--yet I loved him unconditionally and stood by him--until he cheated on me. If she knew me, she would know that I am a very good person, (with faults) a good mother, a good citizen, a good friend. She would know how easy-going I am. She would know how proud I am of my mixed heritage, how I loved my career (that I gave up to be with my husband) how delighted I am in my church, and how VERY MUCH I LOVE MY HUSBAND--still. <P>I have the distinct feeling that she does not WANT to know me. It makes it so much easier for her to carry on with my husband. In fact, I really don't think she knows my husband that well for that matter--if she did, she'd tell him to get his act together, too, and then he'd just go running to someone else.<P>(See, it is so much easier for a man to run off to another woman who knows him marginally, who praises and pampers and pities him for only the person she sees on a limited basis, than for him to try to work on himself and to put some effort into improving himself and his relationship.)<P>Maybe I will leave the board, because I am getting a bit nasty. But in the meantime--I am asking WHY???? when you know that a man has a woman and children at home and you know that they are crying over him? What motivates you to hang on to him? I couldn't. I wouldn't--once again, I am not saying that I am better than anyone else. But I do know, after a little trial and error, what love really is--and it is not glomming onto a married man for whatever reason. WHY?????

I have less trouble understanding OW like the slug than I do OW like Juanita (not a bash at all, just an honest observation), basically for the same reasons that Bernzini has cited. And I sure find it way easier to despise OW like the slug than I do OW like Juanita...<P>I have been asked why I despise the slug and don't take out my hurt on my husband - well, lots of reasons there, and among them is the simple fact that I never made any vows to the slug. And another very important reason is because she has said some very ugly and mean things to me, based on the things my husband said (typical WS stuff: She nags me, she doesn't clean the house, she never lets me do what I want), and this after attempting to physically assault me once, and placing numerous hang up calls to my home for several months.<P>My husband is not her first married man - members of her own family know her as a selfish b*tch - and even the trashiest people in town think she is a pig. She had the nerve to write to me in an email "Don't you know that poem 'If you love something set it free'?" (I doubt it was that well-written - she is also dumb as a rock and as attractive as a bulldog's butt).<P>I don't even have the "comfort" that he found someone better than me - she is a horrible, ugly, disgusting person.<P>Wow ... I think I digressed a bit. Anyhow, the OW in my life never thought of anyone but herself, never believed her involvement with my husband was wrong - and still does not. I am to the point where I will just be happy when he leaves her in the gutter where she belongs - even if he doesn't come back to me.<P>Bitter? Only when I talk about it. <P>However, let me say one thing before I go: Juanita, if you are still reading... you sound like a wonderful person. And you sound as if you think you love this man very much. I will not even argue that you might love him. But you are not loving yourself the way you should if you can continue being the Other Woman. Statistically, he is NOT at all likely to leave his wife for you. One day, the wife WILL find out (she probably has her suspicions even now - most of us had them before we actually found out about our spouse's affairs), and you will have hurt her whether it was ever your intention to or not. As a matter of fact, you have already hurt her by dividing her husband's mind and heart with your presence in his life. You may not have even known he was married when the affair started, but as soon as you found out about it, you became guilty.<P>The only solution for YOU is to get out. He does not love you, or he would not expect you to continue in this charade of a relationship. At the moment, he does not love his wife as he should, either, or he would not continue in the charade himself. And, neither of you love yourselves, or you would have too much pride, dignity and self-respect to continue the hurtful game you are playing. It's not real, and the only real thing you will ever have from it is pain.<P>You sound like a wonderful person who is caught up in a nasty situation. And you are in control, Juanita. You can be wonderful and OUT of that situation by simply walking away and never looking back.<P>I hope you join us again as an EX OW.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

WOW,<P>I actually started a forest fire!<P>To the other BS who posted:<P>You know what it feels like to have your heart ripped out...may you soon join me in having your WS say as mine did this week, "If it takes the rest of my life, I will make this up to you. Please don't leave me till I've spent forever making it right."<P>I've promised to give him forever to make it right, with the caveat that IF he ever so much as tells a white lie about partying or his whereabouts...it's done. (Fool me once...etc.etc.)<P>To the very generous OW's who took the time to write:<P>You have helped me a great deal. I don't mean I am planning to invite her to tea or anything, but I don't think I'll have any more nightmares involving whacking her with an ax. I used to post as Liz Smith:<P>"Lizzie Smith took an ax, and gave the OW 30 whacks".<P>I think I may be getting over this now, though I'd still like to KNOW that she is in treatment. (She has had three affairs with married co-workers).<P>Thank you for your honesty and the time you took to post.<P>Someday, perhaps soon, maybe I'll have a whole day pass without tears or anger. It's been 19 months since D-day.<P>thanks again,<BR>lizpearl<BR><p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited January 25, 2001).]

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After nearly two years I now have some compassion for OW. Have never met her but have mutual "friends" and have seenphoto of her and read one of her letters to H. I am intrigued. She is young (20-25 years younger than H), smart (has an MBA), single; and wrote to h about how she knows he cares for me and respects me and how she grieves about the hurt he and she have caused me. i used to think "what would she know". But now i realise h has defintiely lied to her - probably as much as he has lied to me - sometimes by sins of omission - but lying nevertheless. <P>There are two things that i find totally impossible to understand:<P>(1) He has bought her a number of presents - and each time I know of they could have been for me!! - jewellery from the antique shop where he has (and still does) buy jewellery for me; CDs of my favourite music and singers; a handbag like he bought me - he actually bought the two at once!!- an o'seas trip to our favourite place. Why? maybe i have just been traded in for a newer model. In my darkest hours I have thought of ringing her and telling her tis; surely it would hurt her as much as it confuses me.<P>(2) While the A has been in full swing he invites me to functions and things - including new years eve, including an overnight visit with some friends, including to a favourite restaurant (where I new he had been with her but he told me it was new and he realy wanted to share it with me. What is OW thinking/doing when he is out with me; did he just put her on hold? It must have hurt her ?<P>Even now that I am trying to be in Plan B he has invited me to do things with him and phones me regularly - today he rang to say eldest son (from previous marriage) has just keft for o/seas (to live) and how he is sad and miserable. Got pretty short response from me so no doubt will head off to OW for comfort but i know if I had said "come around for a cup of coffee" he would have been here in a flash.<P>He has told me often she is "not important" and that they have "no long term future together" - but he has never been prepared to end and maintain no contact with her. It must be terribly terribly hard for her - waiting and never knowing what next for her. Frankly, I do not know why she hangs in there. I dont like being mein all of this but i wouldnt want to be her either.<P>R

I too felt truly hurt by the OW and believed in the sisterhood. I agree with someone who posted earlier who stated that woman are cruelier than men during this time. Not all woman are the same, of course, and she made no vow to me but she made one to her husband that she broke. <P>I think the OW in my case was exceptionaly cruel and I want to ask the other OW on her their opinion; here goes:<P>- at the office Christmas party (before I knew about them) she came over and introduced herself as my husband's friend, sat and talked to me, like we were long lost buddies (My h never went near her and her husband)<P>-she spent the weekend in my home when I was out of town (used my makeup)<P>-she called my home when her husband threw her out after she got caught, telling my H - it was his fault and he needed to fix it<P>-she parked her car where I could see it from my house, even after I asked her not to<P>-she called my home and asked for my husband most of the times he was visiting the kids<P>-she went back to her husband in one week and continued to sleep with mine for three months<P>-she had my husband fired after he decided to go back to his family<P>-she kept his cell phone for seven months after they broke up<P>I am stuck on how cruel this woman was and maybe I need reassurance that she was exceptionally cruel but any opinions would be appreciated<BR>