I've always considered ALL women to be my sisters, that is, that no woman would intentionally hurt another. <P>Now I wonder if it might have been a game of 'break up a marriage and you know you are attractive/lovable?' So, my questions are:<P>Did you ever think about your lover's wife? <P>Was it a sort of contest to try to split them up?<P>When read over at The Other Woman, it certainly seemed so. Perhaps your presence here instead already answers this question.<P>Thanks in advance for your responses,<BR>lizpearl<BR>

NOT an OW but I had to respond to your post. You know alias, that was one of the main problems I had in the aftermath of the affair. HOW could one woman be so hurtful to another? I also apparently naively thought all women were my sisters. I thought we understood each other so well and really kinda stuck together. I do understand that in SOME cases the OP doesn't know the person is married, but once they do know, to continue the affair is unconscionable. I found it so hard to believe another woman would look me right in the eye and lie to me. I thought we, as women, had more pride, a deeper conscience, more morals, more empathy and respect for family than to deliberately and continually hurt another woman like that. I believed in a "sisterhood." No more. I look at women in an altogether different light now. Some of us have it,,and now I also know,,some don't. <p>[This message has been edited by Nerlycrzy (edited January 19, 2001).]

Alias,<BR> I think you've fallen for the NOW propaganda. You think all women are your sisters and stick together? What high school did you go to? <P> I wasn't a particularly trusting person before and this situation has made it worse. I believe we all are capable of convincing ourselves that what we're doing is right-no matter how it affects others. <BR>ow either don't consider what will happen or don't care-either way it hurts the same. I just find comfort in what goes around comes around.<BR>

I agree with AM HURT.<P>Both OWs knew he was married. I had invited OW 1 and her son to my home one Christmas eve 'cause she was lonely.<P>It was a shock to me too that some women could be so callous...

<B>Lizzie</B><P>Hi, just chirping in here. I have to second <B>You and Nerly's </B> words here. I too had thought about women the same way. I had always treasured my relationships with women and felt a camaraderie with them. The "Sister Hood." Well, not any more!<P>I now see all women in a much different light, and am hugely skeptical. I know longer throw myself out there as an open book and open my arms up. I am holding something back. It isn't a conscious thing, it seems to be instinctual. Kind of a survival technique. Sad but true. <P>I do have to say that I do not however, feel that way about the women here. Nope if you are Marriage Builder Family, then you are very special and trustworthy women. All of whom I admire and respect. I am in your corner anytime and anywhere. Just like so many of you have been for me. Now if we could all just figure out a way to meet in the real world? Boy oh boy wouldn't that be wonderful? <P><BR>Okay before I go on to make this one of my minor novels, I will close.<P>Love to You and Nerly,<P><B>Am Hurt,</B><P>I can see that you are a bit angry and I totally understand that. Been there, done that. I don't think you alluding to <B>Alias</B> as being naive or "What high school are you from?", as a very kind statement. Just because she had a loving perspective on women in general and felt what she did, does not make her from the dark ages or a victim of Now Propaganda. <P>Remember dear lady, that we are all here, we are all in very similar boats and we are all just trying to understand and make some semblance of sanity to the disasters that were dumped in our lap. We are a big family here, and although we are not always happy, we try and be! <P>The fact that these experiences have darkened our thoughts of others, no matter to what degree and changed our lives so greatly is a sad thing. I wish that I could go back to my old way of thinking and naivety. I think blindly loving fellow human beings like Christ did is much better than my new views.<P>Okay, off my soap box now! <P>I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{AM Hurt}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited January 19, 2001).]

Thanks for defending me Sam, but I was busy composing a polite and witty reply myself! <P>AM Hurt, I understand that you are bitter. But you just shot a little dart at one of the good guys. <P>I am a VETERAN here. I started the Women's Bible Study here with Taj because I was afraid that trying to save my marriage by using the MB approach alone would cost me my sanity and my faith in the Lord. <P>Am I naive? Have I bought the NOW propaganda? Honey, I am sooooooo conservative that I was brought up to believe that only whores wore nail polish.<P>I worked for Nixon's reelection campaign when I was 14 years old. The idea that NOW and I have anything in common is hysterical!<P>I work in women's ministry. I have since I started at 22 years old, counseling college freshmen. I have a heart for other women. I have worked the hotlines of crisis pregnancy centers and soup kitchens.<P>What I believe is that sin is all around us, and if we think that we are above it, we have just committed the sin of pride.<P>When I asked the original question, it was as part of my journey toward healing and understanding. I have done all of my healing EXCEPT forgiving the OW. I am working on that now. Understanding her motives and thoughts during the time we were 'sharing' my husband is important to me.<P>blessings, SISTER,<BR>lizpearl<P>

<B>Lizzie</B><P>Did I overstep my boundaries? I am sorry if I did. Somehow it was my "Princess Running Mouth" response to what I had read. I didn't mean to imply that you were incapable of sticking up for yourself or that you needed me to do it for you. It was just an impulse to <B>AM Hurt's</B> reply. So, in short, if I was wrong, I am so sorry.<P>Forgiving OW is a huge thing for me too. Can't seem to get there. <P>Love you lady, now do I need to duck? <BR>Big hugs,<P>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited January 19, 2001).]

<BR>I haven't mastered forgiving her yet either. Wheww, I feel I've climbed a mountain just by abandoning the fantasy plans to make the rest of her life miserable. Did I say I'd totally given up on that? Oh well, at least I haven't acted on it!! LOL

No ducking necessary, Sammy.<P>And Am Hurt, don't shy away from contributing to our conversation, just know that I am not a naive shrinking violet by a long shot.<P>lizzie

I skimmed what was said...and was going to point out how I trusted WOMEN less and PEOPLE less in general because of my experience with my H's affair...<P>BUT one huge exception was the the dear women who have become my friends here. <P>Then I saw A Blessed Samantha was already on it <P>I have to restate that the women here saved my sanity and lifted me up. I feel a kindred spirit with many here...you know who you are...and if this forum went poof tomorrow and I didn't here from any of you again in this lifetime, I believe I would hold you in my heart forever!

Yup. Dittos. In fact, I'd bet that in a coffeehouse without any descriptions at all, I could spot you guys by your sweet spirits.<P>AM Hurt...say something...we are not trying to freeze you out. Speak up, girl!<P>BTW, I went to a fairly average high school in the seventies with 1600 students. Aside from a handful of 'trash' girls who dressed in halter tops and cutoffs with holes so you could see their bikini underwear, we all were fairly nice to each other. Them, we excluded...they seemed to prefer it that way.<P>liz<p>[This message has been edited by alias (edited January 20, 2001).]

I still haven't heard from any WS women...please help me understand her thinking. I know she felt unloved and bored in her marriage, she told me as much.<P>PLEASE, try to speak for her. I know she isn't a piece of trash, what would that say about my husband's taste in women?

In talking to the OM's wife, I found out that my wife would grill her with questions about the OM. What his interest were, his likes/dislikes hobbies etc. His wife took it to mean that she finally found a girlfriend that worked with her H. How devious is that????? And I was married to her! <BR>Not that it will ever happen but if we were to reconcile, that is one of the hurdles that I will have to contend with. The knowledge that she is capable of doing that blows me away.<BR>There are so many levels of naievity (sp?) that have been destroyed in all this. Trusting has gone to a new level with me... so much so I can't even reach it right now...<BR>mkn

I almost hate to step into this one...<P>I've not been an OW...but the guy I was seeing last winter when I was on the brink of divorce is now married. And, when he told me last fall he had married, it was like another wall sprung up between us...besides the wall of my own recovering marriage. I now intentionally see him first as someone I cannot have contact with, but at least for me, the fact that he is someone else's husband helps firm up keeping that distance, even though I have good memories--which I also am putting out of my mind. I know that I do not want to screw up my marriage, or anyone else's--that is a decision. <P>I think if someone (OP) does not hold marriage as something special--a covenant...and is selfish (Taker mode) with few morals or low character (or whatever emotional need/reason...) as well, going after a MP probably doesn't seem any worse or different than any other person. It's just "I want him/her" ignoring whatever relationship they may have, married or not, with another person...and the justifications are so easy. "The MP is unhappy with their spouse, the kids will be alright, a lot of kids are in divorced homes. I love the MP/OP"...etc. I don't think those things, but we've all heard that either from our WS or second-hand about the OP.<P>I don't really have an opinion on sisterhood, there are people (male or female) I trust, people I do not and the rest fall somewhere on the continuum. One of the women (another co-worker besides OW) that hit on Guard when he was separated is very nearly a friend now. I don't mind if we go out & she's included in the group, I can talk to her, even like her a bit, feel sorry for her a bit more, but I don't trust her.<P>We all know of romances that have begun between MB posters or BS beginning to date...sometimes it is difficult to see how vulnerable we are until we've gotten ourselves in a crummy situation. Not becoming an OW is yet another act of will, decision and choice. Some of us can draw the line in a bold stroke and never deviate. I can say from experience that justifying bad behavior can become pretty easy, especially when you are miserable. Making the right pro-marriage choice is not always easy. <P>But, you *all* know that .<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8<p>[This message has been edited by Lor (Lor) (edited January 20, 2001).]

I am a WS, and an OW. I had an EA, with a MM. I think for a younger OW, in a PA, the answer might be very different. But I'll give you my thoughts. <P>I would agree, believe it or not, that I had and have a connection and responsibility to other women, as sisters. But I also believe in commitment and marriage. I violated so many of my own principals by having an A, it is hard to live with the guilt. In no way did I get invovlved with OM to break up his marriage. In fact in my case, I mistakenly thought, as we first became friends, I could maybe help him. I know, how wrong I was. <P>I have a huge amount of remorse an guilt about what I did. And second to hurting my H, the hardest thing to forgive myself for is betraying the trust of OM's W. Even though I didn't know her, I feel that I had a responsibility to her to respect her marriage, even if her H didn't see it that way. Obviously, I failed. I made a huge mistake. Even if he couldn't see what was happening, behave better, <B>I</B> should have. So I accept more than half of the responsibility for our A.<P>In some ways my anguish about hurting her is worse, because my husband knows me. He is motivated to try to forgive me. He is willing to at least try to accept that I am not a terrible person, even though I did a terrible thing. She, however, must believe me to be a terrible person and always will.<P>As someone else posted a while ago, the thing that helps me to understand my own behavior (even a little) is to remember that I did not do this (get invovlved with a MM) in order to hurt my H or OM's W. I did it for me. Very naively, blindly and selfishly driven by my wish to fill my own EN's. No doubt, if I had been a better, stronger person, there were far better ways to deal with my emotional problems. I would go back and change it all in a heatbeat. But I can't.<BR>

Hi Alone Alot,<P> Thank you for your post, it really helps to know that there are OW who are remorseful and humble.<P>As a BS it's so easy to think of all OW as coldhearted , mean women....I know that's not true and it helps to see the other side. <P>I wish you well in your marriage, and keep posting(if you want).....LU

Alias,<BR> I sincerely apologize for the NOW comment and the high school comment. Out of line, not typical of me and had a really bad day yesterday that has spilled over into today as xow again called and hung up this morning. <P> I too am very, very conservative. I am a college educated woman who chose to give up her career to stay at home and raise our child. Now that I'm back at work after 14 years, I am shocked at how different things are. <P> I have taken a job that is far beneath me so that I can still take my child to school and be there when she gets home. I have women who aren't as educated as I am and are young enough to be my daughter talking to me as if I were a child. They do not know I'm dealing with this nightmare at home, dealing with xow who herself has this same attitude that I'm pathetic because I choose to make my family my first priority, and trying to re-enter the work place. The adjustment has made me a bit or should I say rather sour.<P>I think we're finally on the road to recovery. When H talks of xow, its in disgust and the call this morning only bothered me. <P>You all are right, I am very angry, I'm angry that my daughter has been so very hurt, I'm angry that this woman won't leave us alone, I'm angry that I have this situation to deal with, I'm angry that I have been diagnosed with a disease that is so rare no research or treatment is available, and I'm angry at myself for taking it out on Alias. Please accept my sincerest apology.<P>

I am an OW so I'll take a stab at this. I actually came here (many months ago) seeking help to break off an affair and at first got very sound advice but then some people got nasty and I left. I now post on a board called "ending an affair" on another website. I actually came over here this morning to make sure I had the marriage builder website address correct as I recommended it to a fellow poster on the "ending an affair" board, who asked the question: "do I really have to sever ALL contact with the OM in order to restore my marriage" my response was: xxxx, YES! YES! YES! If you are serious about saving your marriage then "no-contact" is mandatory! There is a website that offers AWESOME advice about recovering from an affair. It is at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com</A> There is a board that welcomes WS's (wayward spouses) and BS's (betrayed spouses) alike and even the occasional OW! Anyway, surf around on that site....there is great info there. The message is clear....he says: "There are three parts to the way affairs should end. The first part is revealing the affair to one's spouse, the second part is NEVER seeing or communicating with the lover again, and the third part is getting through the symptoms of withdrawal after a permanent separation takes place." Check it out! <P>okay, that's a bit of background on me....now to answer your question. Yes, I most certainly did think about my MM's W. It tore me up inside. I feel like I felt more guilty over it than MM did. I am a Christian. Even co-lead a ministry at my church. This affair has thrown my relationship with the Lord in the toilet and I am not sure how to get out. I am making progress at the "ending the affair" board. So, if I felt the guilt, why didn't I just end it? Because the pain and agony that we each (MM and me) endured each of the 30+ times we've tried to end it, outweighed the guilt I felt. I felt horrible for falling in love with a married man and there was not a day that went by whereby I didn't hate myself for doing this but when we would try to end it, it felt like my oxygen supply had been cut off and we'd always go back for more. <P>I have never harrassed his W in ANY way. When we got caught the first time, I wrote her a very nice letter apologizing and vowing not to contact her H again.... unfortunately, he called me and the whole viscious cycle started again. I hate that I caused her so much pain but it's easier (tho selfish) to nurse my own pain since it is soooo real and present. <P>Hope that helps in someway. No need to respond as I don't plan on being back...just had to take a quick peek and saw this question. Believe it or not, I made friends here that I still keep in contact with via email.

I always knew I could never sleep with another woman's H. The whole "sisterhood" thing and all. Just unfathomable to me. What I have learned through life observation and what happened to me is the only thing less trustworthy than a man is a WOMAN! Yep, men lie and cheat but women are much better at it. They are sneakier and much more devious. <BR>Smiling to your face and twisting the knife in your back if you have something they want. I can even look at afew of my single acquanitances and see from their behavior an OW waiting to happen. The only one we can really trust is ourself I guess. How sad.

I have certainly learned from this that you can not trust anyone. No one, not even my H, much less the OW, cares even if my children have enough to eat. The OW does not want my kids around, and has done everything in her power to limit visitation. She encouraged my H to leave a well paying, secure job which also was close to his children, making it far more difficult for him to see them frequently. After only a few months at the new job, he was laid off, and he has been out of work for almost 9 months now. Consequently, he pays little child support and I do not have enough money to pay for shelter, housing and utilities. His children visit for approximately 4 hours once a month. He treats his children as if he is ashamed of them; he is convinced that their behavior is abnormal, even though others tell me that they are very well behaved. He never felt this way before he started living with her. She will not allow him to go to parent teacher conferences, medical appoointments for the children, etc. Yes, he should tell her where to get off, but he won't, because without her he would be homeless, whereas with her he can live an upper-middle class lifestyle while unemployed. <P>She has the means to get whatever she wants, and that is all that matters to her. <P>