just friends - Marriage Builders® Forums

If anyone wants to be brought up to speed on my issue, look at the post Wrong and follow the thread. I gave this lots of thought last night, and I believe -- possibly, and don't throw things at me -- that the people on this board may be overreacting to my situation and question.The basic issue is can I be just friends with a woman I felt strongly towards? If you folo the Wrong post, you will see what level of involvement I had physically -- holding hands, stroking her hair, kissing twice --- and emotionally -- telling her how I felt, leaving voice messages for her, exchanging Valantine cards.I admit that I was very drawn to this woman -- leading with my heart, far more out there than she was. She has revelaed that I am important to her in her life, but she has never been as open with her feelings as I have with mine.We talk on the phone usually once a day. She pages me to talk about a project that I am working on involving her. We are not at the same company.Last night we talked for 10 minutes and I realized the call was one I would have with a friend. Nothing overtly emotional, no talk of how much love, and all that.People on here have told me that it is impossible to keep this woman as a friend. That makes no sense. You seem to be saying that the only way a man and woman can be friends is if they are neutral towards each other. That is unrealistic. If they were neutral, they would not be friends.When a man and woman meet there is always a bit of chemistry. If I had not told this woman what I felt, could I then be friends with her? That gets back to the old Jimmy Carter line about him lusting in his heart. People want to be around people they like. That's natural.There is no chance -- none -- this would ever develop into a sexual affair. I am not interested in that, and I know she isn't either. I was very emotionally drawn towards her -- thought about her all the time -- but that has tapered off significantly during the last month or so.And she never threw her heart at me. She did allow me to hold her hand, hold her in my arms, all that, but that was limited to just three times when we were alone.If we are not going to have a sexual affair, if I have cooled in my emotional feelings towards her, and if she always had control of her emotions and heart, where is the risk.The only problem I could forsee is if this woman does open her heart to me, really miss me and all I have told her. But I don't think that will happen. If it was going to happen, it would have months ago when I was leaving love messages and telling her all the time how I could see her sould, that I knew her better than any other man, that I loved her unconditionally. If she could withstand that barrage, then nothing will happen now when I have toned things way downInstead of feeling guilty, I feel lucky to have met a woman who is a good friend, a friend in a relationship that has some depth to it because we care for each other, but not CARE for each other as lovers.Does this make sense?

Since you brought it up, here's my opinion for what it's worth....others may disagree with me. With the situations my marriage has been thru, I'm almost an authority on the subject.The saying "When you can't deny, try to justify" applies here. Your relationship with this woman is wrong. I think on some level you know it or you wouldn't have even come to this board. Get her out of your life or you're gonna wind up hurting EVERYONE you love. If it's just a friendship, IT'S NOT WORTH THE RISK!!!!Just my opinion and advice. at peace[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: at peace ]

Please understand that I am trying to answer this calmly, but it is VERY difficult for me. You see, you are saying EXACTLY the same things my husband did when I questioned his "friendship" with another woman. He too claimed (and possibly believed) that the relationship would NEVER turn to a sexual one. Guess what? IT DID. Two families, including five children, were devastated.You are in complete and total denial, and no matter what ANYONE here says, you WILL continue to do what you want to. And my prediction is that at some time you will need to come back here, because the relationship will continue until someone is badly hurt.You are already in the midst of an affair. You are one of those people who thinks it isn't an affair without sex. You are so very wrong.If you really want to continue this "friendship" and truly believe that there is nothing wrong with it and that you are loving and protecting your wife, print out your two threads, show them to your wife, tell her you are the married man seeking permission to continue a relationship with another woman, and ask YOUR WIFE for permission.As Dr. Phil says, if you are doing ANYTHING you wouldn't do with your spouse beside you, what you are doing is WRONG. And you know it.Peppermint

MMSA -I finally couldn't ignore your posts any longer. If you are so sure that there is nothing wrong with your relationship with this woman, put it to the test. TELL YOUR WIFE (you know, the woman you made vows with that you stated you "protect"). If you can't do that, then you already know this is wrong.Your wife should be THE MOST IMPORTANT person in your life. Her feelings and needs come before anyone elses. If you can't do this for her, please do the ultimate "protective" action and protect her from YOU.So, you have it ALL figured out. Get some BA**S and prove there is nothing wrong. Stop being "sneaky and dishonest" with your wife and try being a REAL man.

at peace,Numerous members here have already explained this to him to no avail. He didn't listen to a word anyone said because the answers weren't what he wanted to hear. His question has already been answered [5 pages worth] yet he is still fishing for the DESIRED [not right] answer. He is strictly looking for justification of his already determined conclusion - nothing more. Hopefully we can just let this die.It's a waste of time to try and reason with a closed minded person who does not use reason. And it's even more ridiculous to start yet another thread for the same thing. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img][ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

My wife knows I know this woman, that we talk because of the project. I am not coming here to look for "the answer" I supposedly seek. I am here to have a discussion with people -- men and women -- who have been in my position.I just don't see how everyone is so sure this will develop into a seuxal affair. I have had opportunities to have sexual affairs with co-workers, and I turned them donw. That does not interest me. The short-lived thrill of sex would ruin any kind of friendship with a woman.And how is a friendship with a woman -- a woman I talk with on the phone for about 10 minutes a day -- going to effect my marriage to a woman that I love and raise children with.Is it because she is a woman and I am a man? I would submit that friendships men have with other men can be more detrimental to the marriage than my friendhsip with this woman.My wife goes to an art school twice a week and most of the people she meets there are men. If she sits and talks about art with these guys for an hour, about art and feelings and life, how is that any different than me talking with this woman about how her day went?I am not trying to create arguments here, but I just don't see life being so black and white

Oh here we go again!!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] If this is ONLY friends, why is this such an issue for you? Why does what WE say matter? If it's not wrong why are you here? Why are you trying so vehemently to convince US that what you are doing is RIGHT? Look here... it's wrong and there's no way around it. I'm not going to respond to you anymore because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I feel sorry for you, I feel sorry for this OW, I feel sorry for your marriage and most of all, I feel sorry for your wife. You continue on & on & on about this OW but RARELY do you speak of your wife. Quit trying to justify this. We aren't going to give you a high five for this affair.Physical or emotional, an affair is an affair. You are doing a grave injustice to your wife. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

MelodyLane:
Agreed. I feel so sorry for his wife and for what she's going to have to go thru..... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

And one more thing...I am female and I have male friends. My true male friends ~ well I have NEVER EVER EVER had any sort of attraction to them. EVER! Neither emotional or physical. AND, my SO is completely in the know and associates with US. There are no lies, no cover ups, no deception, no sneaking, no lust, no stroking of the hair, no longing, no aching.I only long and ache for my SO. And I am faithful to him ~ both body and soul. That's a difference between a friendship and an affair.

are we back on the sex thing? I wished my H affair was JUST sexual. EA or as you call it "love affair" hurts just as much if not MORE than PA. Again President Clinton did not have sexual intercourse with Monica Lewinsky. Did you know that? He did everything BUT that. This is the part I have a problem with -- holding hands, stroking her hair, kissing twice --- and emotionally -- telling her how you felt, leaving voice messages for her, exchanging Valantine cards. If your wife did ANY of these things with guys in her art class that would be a problem. Sitting around talking about art or you and this woman talking about the project - there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is you made a mistake. Now how are you going to make it right? you just want to push it under the carpet and throw the skeleton in your closet and hope it NEVER comes out and continue on this businesslike relationship with this woman. See the problem is... best case scenario (though not realistic), say you and this woman do pull off this project as business associates. Say you never and she never does anything else physical or emotionally wrong with each other. Say the project ends in 6 months and your wife finds out 5 years from now- you are in deeper than if you would have been honest in the first place. She will call the last 5 years a lie. She will question what happened over the last 5 years.IF OW is sooo emotionally in control why would she exchange valentine cards?[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: I LuvNprotect ME ]

You say that your wife knows that you talk to this woman. Does she know that you kiss her, stroke her hair, hold her hand, send her Valentines, etc?You think you are entitled to this extramarital relationship. I think your WIFE is entitled to know that she is married to a man who is HAVING AN AFFAIR. Your wife has the right to decide if she wants to be married to a man who insists on having this kind of relationship with another woman. Are you afraid that she would choose not to?

I agree with most of you posting that this man just wants justification for his EA! I can only think of two things to say
1. You said that your wife goes to art class 2 times a week right? And talks to men all the time. Does she tell them that she loves them? Does she tell that that they are on her mind all the time. Does she hold their hands and kiss them or hold them in her arms and tell them she can see their soul. Would you like it if she did. If you don't think its wrong THEN TELL HER YOU DID ALL THESE THINGS and see how she feels about it. I'm sure she'll be thrilled [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
2. I think it goes something like this, give or take a few lines:
I________ take you __________ from this day forward, to be my wedding wife, For better, for worse, for richer for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish, to have and to hold, "FORSAKING ALL OTHERS" (And thats the biggie) as long as we both shall live. And hereto, I pledge you my faithfulness [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] You are NOT being faithful and you are not forsaking all others. Plain and simple. I'm sure glad you're not my husband!

MMSA -Lies of ommission are still lies. You mean to tell me your wife knows EVERYTHING that you and this woman have done or talked about and is fine with it?How about answering my first post and stop leaving things out?I say we should stop trying to reason here and just wait to give advice until after your wife finds out and you are trying to save your marriage and get her back. REALITY WILL COME!

WASTE OF TIMEThe Stove is hot but feel free to doubt us. Go ahead, place your hand on it.

I'm just wondering what mmseekingadvice is going to call the book he writes about all the suggestions and advice he got here lolMy opinion is he is a person so narcissistic that he feels everyone should spend their day posting to his thread so that he may reply and invoke yet more people to post to him. I for one, am done. He has been given the best advice by everyone here and he still feels the need to continue to to ask for more. If he takes the advice offered then he can begin to understand what he is doing is wrong but IMHO he doesn't want advice - he wants someone to agree with him and validate that he has the right to carry on this EA with no guilt.

OK, against my better judgement, I'll bite...First, MM, you keep saying that your wife knows about this woman, and that presumably makes it OK. Answer me this: does your wife (or the woman's husband) know that you've been kissing this woman, stroking her hair, holding hands, and dreaming about her daily? I suspect not...Second, you say that since your kisses and hair stroking of this woman have not been returned, then it's OK... Answer me this: if one day you get the chance to caress this woman's breasts or other parts of her body, would that still be OK as long as she doesn't reciprocate?Third, you say that this woman's heart is a rock, and thus it's OK for you to pursue her with all your fervor, because she will (hopefully) not let you cross the line, even though you have already. Answer me this: what if one day she has a bad day and asks you to sleep with her, would that be OK? (BTW, saying "oh, that would NEVER happen" is not an acceptable answer).OK, I'm off to await your answers with baited breath...AGG

In regards to the last post, no, her husband and my wife do not know that I stroked her hair, etc. As for sexual touches, I could have tried touching her breasts when I held her in my arms, but I did not want to even attempt to make this sexual. If she asked me to go to bed with her, I would not. I know people don't believe me, but it would ruin the friendship.My question is not to justify the past, but to ask about the future. If all the touching stops, what is wrong with being friends?

This man doesn't want advice. He wants permission. Don't waste your time trying to persuade him. He has been given more than enough good, thoughtful advice.

You know...as a daily reader, even just reading this thread and his original one is putting me at the most frustrating level. MM, you don't want advice or guiedence...what you want is someone to say "yeah, its ok". You seem to be so calm and comfortable with what you're doing...why even bother posting here? Or the better question really is, how would you feel if your W was behaving in the same inapproperiate manor? I highly doubt you would be so open. For some reason I don't think it would be acceptable to you if your W confessed that she tried to cop a feel of another man's private parts. Or that she kissed another man...TWICE?You're wrong and deep inside you know it...you're just too busy trying to find justifications to acknowledge that you're having an EA and walking the thin line to a PA.Deeply Scared

To be crude, MM, there is a major difference between a friend and a lightbulb - you can UNscrew a lightbulb. You have crossed the line with this woman, and it is a chasm that can never be recrossed. You can never be friends with her now, because of the actions you have already taken, none of which were based on friendship.FYI, the reason our marriage counsellor advised me in front of my H to leave my H immediately,and told my H to his face in my presence that H is an emotional abuser, is NOT because of his EA with XOW, but BECAUSE OF THE 8 MONTH PERIOD IN WHICH H "JUST WANTED TO BE FRIENDS WITH XOW." Because H WOULD not end his "friendship". It ended when XOW phoned him and dropped him.The counsellor refused to see us again.That's how seriously he took it that my H wanted to be friends with his XOW, even though there was never any sexual contact whatsoever, even though H never held and kissed her, never stroked her hair, never held her hand. Even though XOW had been out of our lives for a year by the time my depression and physical breakdown drove H into counselling with me.Please direct your W to this board. She's going to need all the help and support she can get in the near future, seeing you refuse to protect her from your self.If you really do love your W and want to protect her, call the Harleys and ask them this same question directly - can you be friends with your OW? Rationalize = Rational Lies.

2 questions MM1) did you know President Clinton did not have sexual intercourse with Monica Lewinsky? it was an inappropriate relationship as you admitted this "friendship" "use to be".2) How are you going to make what you have done wrong (in the passed) right?

I know juststartingover, same thing happened to us. In fact if MM could look outside of himself and into the pain and suffering that has made this board so busy he would see his reality is just like all the others.I wonder if this man has kids. To tell my kids (ages 7 and 8) daddy is moving out 3 times in one year because of this "friendship" how do you ever repair the damage done to kids? to see their eyes tear up and them cry on my shoulder day after day as I just hold them and say "i know it hurts". My son actually asked "why does daddy keep making the same mistake if it hurts us so much"

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
My question is not to justify the past, but to ask about the future. If all the touching stops, what is wrong with being friends?<hr></blockquote>Well, how about using your own words to answer your question: <blockquote>quote:<hr>The only problem I could forsee is if this woman does open her heart to me...<hr></blockquote>Sounds like a great basis for a friendship [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] . My last question to you will be this: would you find it acceptable for your W to have a male friend whom she has, ahem, stroked in the past, professed her love for him, and wrote him love notes? Especially if she convinces you that there are no worries, because her male friend's heart is a rock?? I find it hard to believe that that would work you, but what do I know... My ex had a married male friend at work, and they did fun things together, and then he gave her jewelry, but it was all "cool" because they were just friends... "Somehow" they ended up in bed, and now there is one family broken up (mine) and one other in the process... Four children altogether growing up in dysfunctional families because of this "friendship"... Before you continue this friendship, ask yourself if you're willing to lose your marriage over it, or else you'll end up like my ex who is still scratching her head saying "I don't understand how this happened". In a word, "duh"...Good luck with this friendship, you'll need it (the luck, not the friendship).AGG

Wake up and smell the sweet roses!You wrote under your "wrong" thread the following:"I would like to hear from a woman who guarded her heart and then finally gave in. To me it seems clear that this woman is not emotionally involved with me." [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Hello! I think I stated this to you in a previous post of mine. I guarded my heart and I never in a million years expected I would ever cheat, but I did! [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] You've stepped over that line and you can't go back. Trying, and I say TRYING, to be just friends won't work. There is nothing wrong with being friends with someone of the opposite sex, but it just isn't emotionally possible after you've crossed that line. I don't care how much you try to convince yourself it is. You are blinded my friend, and are not listening to anything anyone is saying. All you keep doing is crying that your question isn't being answered. Well, read the darn resposnes to your posts - the answer is right there in front of you a hundred times. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] So, one more time I will ask you this - if you love your wife and claim to protect her, why, for one milisecond, would you even consider opening up the possiblity of potentially putting her through all the pain you have, I'm certain, read about at this site? [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] You are being selfish, to say the least. Now that I have given what you want (to hear from a woman who has guarded her heart), and have tried to explain that it is wrong for the simple possibility that you cannot predict that you will not ever "lead with your heart" again with regards to her, I hope you can understand why it is wrong. If not, ask yourself what I have in the paragraph above - therein lies all your answers! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] In any event, I am done with this whole issue. You don't care to learn, or hear what others have to say. You are just here to argue your point. Well, point is, it's just not right - not if you love your wife the way you say you do.

OK, one last point... Is this your wife posting, by chance? If not, one day it will be...http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=016001

mmseekingadvice...or mmseekingvalidation?Yes, you can be friends w/ OW...but you will be doing so at great risk to your self-esteem, your marriage and your wife's heart...but you will do what you do. You will either be someone who can learn from those who have BEEN THERE... or you will have to be one who learns by the hard knocks of life.I ask you to pray and let God lead you... ...there is NO place in a marriage for a third person. You WILL and HAVE already created a WALL between you and your wife... I am sure there are already things which you have told your FRIEND that you have NOT told your wife... why don't you go to another board and seek your validation there... I'm sure there are those out there who would poopoo us and say "Sure, you can be friends. Your feelings are important. You shouldn't deny yourself the chance at a new love. You can help yourself. Feelings just are. It's not your fault. Your wife is just not meeting some need and this person is. You deserve that. What's more important you or your marriage? YOU, of course." What is more important mm? your friendship or your marriage?That is the question.Cali [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi, invite your wife to read this post. Then come back and tell us where you stand and where you see this relationship.

Maybe my posts have made this friendship seem more than it is. At least what it is now in the present, not the past.The woman talks with me once a day -- not loving talk, but just regular talks. If we were in an office we would talk more frequently.How is that an EA, and how is that coming between my wife and I?

[img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ASK YOUR WIFE! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

To tell you the truth, I've skimmed over much of this thread, but am responding to the last post by mm.I think you can answer your own question if you think about it. If it isn't a threat to your marriage I don't think you would have come to this forum to begin with. If you are completely comfortable and open with your wife about this relationship, then you don't need the viewpoints of the members of this forum, however, something drew you here....what was it?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:

How is that an EA, and how is that coming between my wife and I?<hr></blockquote>I'll repeat what I asked before:would you find it acceptable for your W to have a male friend whom she has, ahem, stroked in the past, professed her love for him, and wrote him love notes? Especially if she convinces you that there are no worries, because her male friend's heart is a rock??Well?Also, hand holding, kissing, and hair stroking are waaaaaaaaaaay beyond EA, buddy, and you know it...

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
How is that an EA, and how is that coming between my wife and I?<hr></blockquote>
You're spending time thinking about her, your relationship with her and your past with her. You really need to wonder why this is becoming an issue? Another woman is at the forefront of your thoughts, another woman has the power to seduce you(you already said your staying just friends is predicated on her not making a move on you). Just a couple of weeks ago you gave this woman a v-day card. A day reserved for the expressing of love between romantic partners.
Are you really this blind or are you truly in love with this woman and trying to dig out any positive response to justify staying close to her...after all she just may come around eh?
My ex's A started just like this, just friends, I knew about her. Of course I didn't know about the kisses and hugs and secret talks, just like your wife. As far as I knew they were just friends...until of course she relented and gave him oral sex one night. The woman who was engaed and such a strong Christian she would never in a million years do something like that.
Come on, be honest with us all. You do want this girl, if you didn't you wouldn't be so bloody scared of losing this friendship. You sound like a man trying to hold onto his lover not his friend.

double post [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img][ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Nduli2 ]

I came to this board because as I was pulling away from the emotional feelings towards my friend I wondered how others did that. How long did it take to get over the ache in heart, etc.I have found that now that I have some distance, I like this woman as a friend, not as the lover i once thought I wanted.I know that no one believes this, but I am NOT interested in sex with her. I have a good sex life at home. And if sex was the issue, I could have sex with a woman who has approached me with an affair. Of course my wife does not know about the past. But then there are many things that everyone on this board does not share with their spouse -- wether it is something they have talked about with their brother, same-sex friend, or anyone.No ones life is an open book. Anyone who says that's so is a liar. Even if you talk openly there are thoughts we all have that we keep to ourselves. So I dont believe I am hurting my wife by not telling her how I once felt towards this woman.Someone else mentioned that this woman had the power to seduce me. If that was the case, she would have done so when I was coming on full strength telling her that I loved her, all those things.And she gave me a Valantie Card. And then I gave her one the next day before I left town.I could see if this was an old girlfriend who I had a relationship with. But that is not the case.

I haven't written to you before, but I've been reading... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
No ones life is an open book. Anyone who says that's so is a liar. <hr></blockquote>Are you calliing me a liar? Because let me tell you, MY LIFE IS AN OPEN BOOK! My H knows EVERYTHING ABOUT ME. So does everyone here. In the over 6000 posts I've made (both as new_beginning and Nyneve) I have spilled my guts.Be careful MM. Secrets kill a marriage.

After careful consideration, I've decided that MM is right, and there is nothing wrong with this situation...My only suggestion would be that you point your wife towards this site when she finds out about your "friendship", so she can get some help...Good luck... I'm done posting on this topic (should have never started... [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] )AGG

Dear New Beginning:
He knows everything? I doubt it. We all harbor thoughts that would shock people. Come on. You share most everything, but there is a part of you, a part of everyone that will always remain a secret.If not, where is the mystery that comes from getting to know someone.I agree that some secrets are worse than others, but we all have secrets

Actually in my relationship things are an open book, I know things about my SO that no one else does and that could have ended our relationship before it began. I told him all about my past and my marriage. So, call me a liar if you like but I believe a relationship should be based on total honesty.
Seriously, if this OW came onto you, you would turn her down? In the heat of the moment you would do that despite saying you love her?
Tell your wife everything, you owe it to her, you already have been unfaithful.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
Dear New Beginning:
He knows everything? I doubt it. We all harbor thoughts that would shock people. Come on. You share most everything, but there is a part of you, a part of everyone that will always remain a secret.<hr></blockquote>He sure does. He knows about my childhood, my sexual abuse, my past problems with substances as a teen, my family issues, my divorce and what proceeded it, my sexual desires...all of them, my likes, my dislikes, my fantasies, my goals, everything and in return I get the same. Not everyone is dishonest with the people they love. Love to me is trust and if I don't trust you I can't love you.

MMMaybe you missed my post where I pointed you towards a board that would answer your question the way you want it to be answered. It was ivillage.com>relationships>MyAffair
These people will gladly tell you to continue what you are doing no matter the consequences. And you will be doing a great service to the good people of MB by leaving them to help someone who really does want help.To ALL repliers of this post:I challenge you to leave this man to his selfish thoughts and turn your kestrokes and brain energy to the other people here who really do seek your advice.Bridgette

Thanks for the advice. As to the person who suggested not posting, isn't that a little bit like preaching to the choir? I thought the idea was to help people like myself, men and woman who are questioning, learning and struggling as we go along.My answers may not be what you like, but they are where I am now. My questions may drive you nuts.I am not looking for a board to condone an affair. But if you it would make people feel more at ease, I will stop posting.But the truth is that I represent a lot of men and women grappling with these issues, probably similar to many of your spouses -- the ones who are "an open book' and yet who still wonder and have questions.I guess I am just hones enough to admit here that I have questionsAnd yes, I would be strong enough to resist this woman if she sexually proposed to me. Being honest, I would have a far harder time not holding her hand.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by mmseekingadvice:
Dear New Beginning:
He knows everything? I doubt it. We all harbor thoughts that would shock people. Come on. You share most everything, but there is a part of you, a part of everyone that will always remain a secret.If not, where is the mystery that comes from getting to know someone.I agree that some secrets are worse than others, but we all have secrets<hr></blockquote>Sorry guy, but we're speaking different languages here...... you're talking about a bit of mystery, like how the bubbles of champagne make me burp, and he doesn't know because we've never had champagne... ... or your spouse not knowing you really never liked mauve because the subject never came up ...I'm talking about SECRETS... ya know... like that you used to be hot for the chick at work, kissed her a few times, told her you loved her, and now you're ONLY FRIENDS so it's okay... BIG DIFFERENCE!

You are a very selfish man. If this is so innocent tell your wife, everything you told us. If she agrees this is acceptable then you are not considered cheating. But if you hide it (not completely open with your wife), what you are doing is called INFIDELITY. this hurts as much as if you were having SEX. because it is a dirty secret. Friendship my butt. YOU ARE HAVING AN AFFAIR. get a grip, call a spade a spade.
You have a very twisted view of reality

This statement you made is precisely why you are not friends and you have an emotional attachment to her NOW (not in the passed)
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Being honest, I would have a far harder time not holding her hand.
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This is a Marriage Builders board for people who want to build better marriages. The principles taught here throughout this site are overcoming affairs. That is what we are all doing overcoming it. You can't overcome it until you can admit what it is. We do encourage a lot of wayward spouses but you are unwilling to take on that title. The first step is to admit you have a problem.

Here is So Crushed story:So Crushed
Junior Member
Member # 17347
posted February 28, 2002 12:39 PM
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Hi,
I am sure glad I found this forum. I need some help. I found out for sure that my husband has been having an EA for a few months now. I became suspious when this person phone # should up on our cell phone bill, then the dufus used our credit card to call her while we were on vacation. I called her (she is married too, with two small kids), and she said what he did- they are just friends. Well I packed up our baby and I left. I am now staying in a hotel, with my toddler. I told both of them that I am NOT coming home until one of them leaves their job. Period. She said she would, because if my husband did it would create a big problem in the company, and alot of people would lose there jobs. They both swear it was innocent, but I told them if they were such good friends, why could we have not gotten together as "couples". No answer.
I hate everyone right now, and I am having serious trust factors with my husband. he swears it was nothing, and he wants me home. Too bad, I am not coming home until one is GONE. I am so angry how could he risk everything for a "friend"
My husband is very powerful in his job, and it comes with a very high income, so I will be OK financially. But emotionally I dont know how I will ever get over it. I never want to see him again, he disgusts me. I feel Like I never knew him at all. I read plan A and B, but I am not the kind of person that can do plan A. I dont believe that a grown person does not know how to behave, I believe they do know what is right and wrong and what they have done is just purely SELFISH. If my Husband robbed a bank he will have to pay that price, well he robbed me of my heart. So do I do plan B?? no communcating until she is gone?..at all? what do I do?? I am so crushed, he was suppose to love me the way i love him..why does this happen, I cant deal with this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Cali:
mmseekingadvice...or mmseekingvalidation?
<hr></blockquote>This is too funny Cali lol and I believe you have hit the nail or in this case the male right on the head. You won't find validation here mister married man, This is a place for saving marriages not for finding ways to validate infidelity. I'll say a prayer for you tonight because it's quite evident that you really need it and then I'll say an extra one for your poor wife who has no clue how you are betraying her.

A married man and woman exchanging valentine's is ok? With other people than their spouses? Since when?Sorry folks, but this reminds me of the woman who had the affair with the priest and shook everybody up by writing about it everyday. That was a hoax and maybe this is too?

A hoax?
I could come up with something better than this if I wanted to write about a hoax

I keep having this amusing vision of the OW sitting there like a "guarded" stump with you fawning and pawing her. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] It would seem silly if it weren't so sad.You say:
<blockquote>quote:<hr>My question is not to justify the past, but to ask about the future. If all the touching stops, what is wrong with being friends? <hr></blockquote>What is wrong is that your attention to the woman diverts emotional energy from your marriage. She is a preoccupation that results in less time spent attending to your W's ENS. Try this. Every time you find yourself thinking of OW, go pay attention to your W instead. Another thing that is wrong is that it would hurt your W if she knew how you feel about OW. If you doubt that, tell your W and see if she thinks it's not wrong. Tell you minister. Tell your kids. Tell your parents. See what they think. It really doesn't matter that we think your behavior is wrong. The only one whose opinion really matters is your W.Estes

....because MM, 'friendship' with these kinds of women for you now is toxic. You are not capable at this time to truly create and maintain a true friendship. Crossing the line from friendship to lust has already been done. The next time will be even easier. The A has been likened to a drug or alcohol dependancy. For one in withdrawal, a scent or thought of the addictive source could be enough to cause a breakdown. Therefore it is toxic. Now what line of 'reasoning' can use you to talk your way out of that?L.

Hi mmseekingadvice,
Hmmm... it sounds like you are a wayward spouse in withdrawal. It sounds to me like IF the OW was willing to open up to you, as you stated, then it WOULD have been a full-blown physical affair and probably still going on as you are in a business relationship.So you wish to remain friends? In what capacity? Talking about your personal life? Not good. Here's why, according to Harley: <blockquote>quote:<hr>Dr.Harley on Escaping the Jaws of Infidelity:

Whenever I counsel someone who seems incurably attracted to the opposite sex, I give them the following rules to avoid temptation: 1) Spend all your recreational time either alone or with your spouse, 2) no meals alone with someone of the opposite sex, 3) no rides in cars alone with those of the opposite sex, 4) never tell someone of the opposite sex thay you find them attractive or that you like them and 5) if someone of the opposite sex ever tells you that they find you attractive, start talking about how much you love your spouse.
<hr></blockquote>Maybe you believe you have not harmed your marriage nor your wife because you have not had sex with this woman, but you have already had the OW in bed with you through your own fantasies.It's not about protecting your wife from the secrets you have that could hurt her right now, YOU ALREADY KNOW THEY WOULD. It's about protecting yourself from your own weaknesses. For one, stop lying to yourself, man. Just face the truth. Okay, so you believe that you can trust yourself to be friends with this woman, if so, then introduce her to your wife and all three of you go on an outing together.I bet you didn't take the Valentine card she gave you home and put it on your desk? I also bet that you didn't shop for HER Valentine together with your wife?!? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Doubt that very seriously...But you already knew that...How to deal with ending your huge love busting behavior of dishonesty... <blockquote>quote:<hr>Dr.Harley on Love Busters

Finally, the fifth Love Buster, Dishonesty, causes massive Love Bank withdrawals whenever it's discovered. And spouses usually discover each other's dishonesty because of their emotional closeness to each other. If you or your spouse have a tendency to lie or distort the truth, you have little hope of maintaining your love for each other. But dishonesty does more than ruin your love for each other -- it also prevents you from finding solutions to your problems. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table. So I have posted two Q&A columns that encourage spouses to be completely honest with each other, Honesty and Openness (Part_1) and Honesty and Openness (Part 2). In these columns, I explain that honesty is essential in solving marital problems, meets a very important emotional need, and helps avoid one of the most destructive Love Busters.

<hr></blockquote>[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]