If anyone wants to be brought up to speed on my issue, look at the post Wrong and follow the thread. <p>I gave this lots of thought last night, and I believe -- possibly, and don't throw things at me -- that the people on this board may be overreacting to my situation and question.<p>The basic issue is can I be just friends with a woman I felt strongly towards? If you folo the Wrong post, you will see what level of involvement I had physically -- holding hands, stroking her hair, kissing twice --- and emotionally -- telling her how I felt, leaving voice messages for her, exchanging Valantine cards.<p>I admit that I was very drawn to this woman -- leading with my heart, far more out there than she was. She has revelaed that I am important to her in her life, but she has never been as open with her feelings as I have with mine.<p>We talk on the phone usually once a day. She pages me to talk about a project that I am working on involving her. We are not at the same company.<p>Last night we talked for 10 minutes and I realized the call was one I would have with a friend. Nothing overtly emotional, no talk of how much love, and all that.<p>People on here have told me that it is impossible to keep this woman as a friend. That makes no sense. You seem to be saying that the only way a man and woman can be friends is if they are neutral towards each other. That is unrealistic. If they were neutral, they would not be friends.<p>When a man and woman meet there is always a bit of chemistry. If I had not told this woman what I felt, could I then be friends with her? That gets back to the old Jimmy Carter line about him lusting in his heart. People want to be around people they like. That's natural.<p>There is no chance -- none -- this would ever develop into a sexual affair. I am not interested in that, and I know she isn't either. <p>I was very emotionally drawn towards her -- thought about her all the time -- but that has tapered off significantly during the last month or so.<p>And she never threw her heart at me. She did allow me to hold her hand, hold her in my arms, all that, but that was limited to just three times when we were alone.<p>If we are not going to have a sexual affair, if I have cooled in my emotional feelings towards her, and if she always had control of her emotions and heart, where is the risk.<p>The only problem I could forsee is if this woman does open her heart to me, really miss me and all I have told her. But I don't think that will happen. If it was going to happen, it would have months ago when I was leaving love messages and telling her all the time how I could see her sould, that I knew her better than any other man, that I loved her unconditionally. If she could withstand that barrage, then nothing will happen now when I have toned things way down<p>Instead of feeling guilty, I feel lucky to have met a woman who is a good friend, a friend in a relationship that has some depth to it because we care for each other, but not CARE for each other as lovers.<p>Does this make sense?

Since you brought it up, here's my opinion for what it's worth....others may disagree with me. With the situations my marriage has been thru, I'm almost an authority on the subject.<p>The saying "When you can't deny, try to justify" applies here. <p>Your relationship with this woman is wrong. I think on some level you know it or you wouldn't have even come to this board. Get her out of your life or you're gonna wind up hurting EVERYONE you love. If it's just a friendship, IT'S NOT WORTH THE RISK!!!!<p>Just my opinion and advice. <p>at peace<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: at peace ]</p>

Please understand that I am trying to answer this calmly, but it is VERY difficult for me. You see, you are saying EXACTLY the same things my husband did when I questioned his "friendship" with another woman. He too claimed (and possibly believed) that the relationship would NEVER turn to a sexual one. Guess what? IT DID. Two families, including five children, were devastated.<p>You are in complete and total denial, and no matter what ANYONE here says, you WILL continue to do what you want to. And my prediction is that at some time you will need to come back here, because the relationship will continue until someone is badly hurt.<p>You are already in the midst of an affair. You are one of those people who thinks it isn't an affair without sex. You are so very wrong.<p>If you really want to continue this "friendship" and truly believe that there is nothing wrong with it and that you are loving and protecting your wife, print out your two threads, show them to your wife, tell her you are the married man seeking permission to continue a relationship with another woman, and ask YOUR WIFE for permission.<p>As Dr. Phil says, if you are doing ANYTHING you wouldn't do with your spouse beside you, what you are doing is WRONG. And you know it.<p>Peppermint

MMSA -<p>I finally couldn't ignore your posts any longer. If you are so sure that there is nothing wrong with your relationship with this woman, put it to the test. TELL YOUR WIFE (you know, the woman you made vows with that you stated you "protect"). If you can't do that, then you already know this is wrong.<p>Your wife should be THE MOST IMPORTANT person in your life. Her feelings and needs come before anyone elses. If you can't do this for her, please do the ultimate "protective" action and protect her from YOU.<p>So, you have it ALL figured out. Get some BA**S and prove there is nothing wrong. Stop being "sneaky and dishonest" with your wife and try being a REAL man.

at peace,<p>Numerous members here have already explained this to him to no avail. He didn't listen to a word anyone said because the answers weren't what he wanted to hear. His question has already been answered [5 pages worth] yet he is still fishing for the DESIRED [not right] answer. He is strictly looking for justification of his already determined conclusion - nothing more. <p>Hopefully we can just let this die.<p>It's a waste of time to try and reason with a closed minded person who does not use reason. And it's even more ridiculous to start yet another thread for the same thing. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</p>

My wife knows I know this woman, that we talk because of the project. <p>I am not coming here to look for "the answer" I supposedly seek. I am here to have a discussion with people -- men and women -- who have been in my position.<p>I just don't see how everyone is so sure this will develop into a seuxal affair. I have had opportunities to have sexual affairs with co-workers, and I turned them donw. That does not interest me. The short-lived thrill of sex would ruin any kind of friendship with a woman.<p>And how is a friendship with a woman -- a woman I talk with on the phone for about 10 minutes a day -- going to effect my marriage to a woman that I love and raise children with.<p>Is it because she is a woman and I am a man? I would submit that friendships men have with other men can be more detrimental to the marriage than my friendhsip with this woman.<p>My wife goes to an art school twice a week and most of the people she meets there are men. If she sits and talks about art with these guys for an hour, about art and feelings and life, how is that any different than me talking with this woman about how her day went?<p>I am not trying to create arguments here, but I just don't see life being so black and white

My wife knows I know this woman, that we talk because of the project. <p>I am not coming here to look for "the answer" I supposedly seek. I am here to have a discussion with people -- men and women -- who have been in my position.<p>I just don't see how everyone is so sure this will develop into a seuxal affair. I have had opportunities to have sexual affairs with co-workers, and I turned them donw. That does not interest me. The short-lived thrill of sex would ruin any kind of friendship with a woman.<p>And how is a friendship with a woman -- a woman I talk with on the phone for about 10 minutes a day -- going to effect my marriage to a woman that I love and raise children with.<p>Is it because she is a woman and I am a man? I would submit that friendships men have with other men can be more detrimental to the marriage than my friendhsip with this woman.<p>My wife goes to an art school twice a week and most of the people she meets there are men. If she sits and talks about art with these guys for an hour, about art and feelings and life, how is that any different than me talking with this woman about how her day went?<p>I am not trying to create arguments here, but I just don't see life being so black and white

Oh here we go again!!! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>If this is ONLY friends, why is this such an issue for you? Why does what WE say matter? If it's not wrong why are you here? Why are you trying so vehemently to convince US that what you are doing is RIGHT? <p>Look here... it's wrong and there's no way around it. I'm not going to respond to you anymore because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. <p>I feel sorry for you, I feel sorry for this OW, I feel sorry for your marriage and most of all, I feel sorry for your wife. <p>You continue on & on & on about this OW but RARELY do you speak of your wife. <p>Quit trying to justify this. We aren't going to give you a high five for this affair.<p>Physical or emotional, an affair is an affair. You are doing a grave injustice to your wife. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

MelodyLane:<p>
Agreed. <p>I feel so sorry for his wife and for what she's going to have to go thru..... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

And one more thing...<p>I am female and I have male friends. My true male friends ~ well I have NEVER EVER EVER had any sort of attraction to them. EVER! Neither emotional or physical. <p>AND, my SO is completely in the know and associates with US. There are no lies, no cover ups, no deception, no sneaking, no lust, no stroking of the hair, no longing, no aching.<p>I only long and ache for my SO. And I am faithful to him ~ both body and soul. <p>That's a difference between a friendship and an affair.

are we back on the sex thing? <p>I wished my H affair was JUST sexual. EA or as you call it "love affair" hurts just as much if not MORE than PA. Again President Clinton did not have sexual intercourse with Monica Lewinsky. Did you know that? He did everything BUT that. <p>This is the part I have a problem with -- holding hands, stroking her hair, kissing twice --- and emotionally -- telling her how you felt, leaving voice messages for her, exchanging Valantine cards. If your wife did ANY of these things with guys in her art class that would be a problem. Sitting around talking about art or you and this woman talking about the project - there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is you made a mistake. Now how are you going to make it right? you just want to push it under the carpet and throw the skeleton in your closet and hope it NEVER comes out and continue on this businesslike relationship with this woman. See the problem is... best case scenario (though not realistic), say you and this woman do pull off this project as business associates. Say you never and she never does anything else physical or emotionally wrong with each other. Say the project ends in 6 months and your wife finds out 5 years from now- you are in deeper than if you would have been honest in the first place. She will call the last 5 years a lie. She will question what happened over the last 5 years.<p>IF OW is sooo emotionally in control why would she exchange valentine cards?<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: I LuvNprotect ME ]</p>

You say that your wife knows that you talk to this woman. Does she know that you kiss her, stroke her hair, hold her hand, send her Valentines, etc?<p>You think you are entitled to this extramarital relationship. I think your WIFE is entitled to know that she is married to a man who is HAVING AN AFFAIR. Your wife has the right to decide if she wants to be married to a man who insists on having this kind of relationship with another woman. Are you afraid that she would choose not to?

I agree with most of you posting that this man just wants justification for his EA! I can only think of two things to say
1. You said that your wife goes to art class 2 times a week right? And talks to men all the time. Does she tell them that she loves them? Does she tell that that they are on her mind all the time. Does she hold their hands and kiss them or hold them in her arms and tell them she can see their soul. Would you like it if she did. If you don't think its wrong THEN TELL HER YOU DID ALL THESE THINGS and see how she feels about it. I'm sure she'll be thrilled [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
2. I think it goes something like this, give or take a few lines:
I________ take you __________ from this day forward, to be my wedding wife, For better, for worse, for richer for poorer; in sickness and in health; to love and to cherish, to have and to hold, "FORSAKING ALL OTHERS" (And thats the biggie) as long as we both shall live. And hereto, I pledge you my faithfulness [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] You are NOT being faithful and you are not forsaking all others. Plain and simple. I'm sure glad you're not my husband!

MMSA -<p>Lies of ommission are still lies. You mean to tell me your wife knows EVERYTHING that you and this woman have done or talked about and is fine with it?<p>How about answering my first post and stop leaving things out?<p>I say we should stop trying to reason here and just wait to give advice until after your wife finds out and you are trying to save your marriage and get her back. REALITY WILL COME!

WASTE OF TIME<p>The Stove is hot but feel free to doubt us. Go ahead, place your hand on it.

I'm just wondering what mmseekingadvice is going to call the book he writes about all the suggestions and advice he got here lol<p>My opinion is he is a person so narcissistic that he feels everyone should spend their day posting to his thread so that he may reply and invoke yet more people to post to him. I for one, am done. He has been given the best advice by everyone here and he still feels the need to continue to to ask for more. If he takes the advice offered then he can begin to understand what he is doing is wrong but IMHO he doesn't want advice - he wants someone to agree with him and validate that he has the right to carry on this EA with no guilt.

OK, against my better judgement, I'll bite...<p>First, MM, you keep saying that your wife knows about this woman, and that presumably makes it OK. Answer me this: does your wife (or the woman's husband) know that you've been kissing this woman, stroking her hair, holding hands, and dreaming about her daily? I suspect not...<p>Second, you say that since your kisses and hair stroking of this woman have not been returned, then it's OK... Answer me this: if one day you get the chance to caress this woman's breasts or other parts of her body, would that still be OK as long as she doesn't reciprocate?<p>Third, you say that this woman's heart is a rock, and thus it's OK for you to pursue her with all your fervor, because she will (hopefully) not let you cross the line, even though you have already. Answer me this: what if one day she has a bad day and asks you to sleep with her, would that be OK? (BTW, saying "oh, that would NEVER happen" is not an acceptable answer).<p>OK, I'm off to await your answers with baited breath...<p>AGG

In regards to the last post, no, her husband and my wife do not know that I stroked her hair, etc. <p>As for sexual touches, I could have tried touching her breasts when I held her in my arms, but I did not want to even attempt to make this sexual. <p>If she asked me to go to bed with her, I would not. I know people don't believe me, but it would ruin the friendship.<p>My question is not to justify the past, but to ask about the future. If all the touching stops, what is wrong with being friends?

This man doesn't want advice. He wants permission. Don't waste your time trying to persuade him. He has been given more than enough good, thoughtful advice.

You know...as a daily reader, even just reading this thread and his original one is putting me at the most frustrating level. <p>MM, you don't want advice or guiedence...what you want is someone to say "yeah, its ok". You seem to be so calm and comfortable with what you're doing...why even bother posting here? Or the better question really is, how would you feel if your W was behaving in the same inapproperiate manor? I highly doubt you would be so open. For some reason I don't think it would be acceptable to you if your W confessed that she tried to cop a feel of another man's private parts. Or that she kissed another man...TWICE?<p>You're wrong and deep inside you know it...you're just too busy trying to find justifications to acknowledge that you're having an EA and walking the thin line to a PA.<p>Deeply Scared