Help! Conflicting opinions - Marriage Builders® Forums

My W and OM have decided to end their PA after D-day 2, but she says she cannot agree to no contact. She feels that she is deeply in love with him, but doesn't want to break up our family. So she still calls him and has coffee with him a couple of times a week. I've told her that at some point, the contact has to stop, but that I accept that this is all she is willing to do at this point. She says nothing to this. I think that she feels that I will accept the contact at some point, and I feel like with the end of the PA, maybe the emotions will subside to the point where no contact is possible.I've heard the range of opinions on this from MC, family, etc. In all of your experience, will this continued contact increase her connection with him over time? Or will the lack of physical connection allow her to get her head back? Patience or tough love at this point?

Baffled,
That's tough. I feel bad for what you're going through. As to your question. Your W says she still loves him, and meets with him several times a week. I mean, I can't say with certainty, but you don't need to read MBs long to see that such a scenario often leads to a resumption of the PA. Now I hope that doesn't happen, but if I were you, I would basically treat the A as ongoing 'cause really it is. There are many people here who've dealt with this I hope you get some good advice. Take care of yourself,
David

Baffled, Davidb is right that continued contact with OM often leads to the resumption of the A. It is THE major obstacle to marital recovery and her unwillingness to end all contact is proof enough that her so called efforts towards marital recovery is if not a joke then lukewarm at best. By her own admission, she is deeply in love with OM but stays in the M because she doesn't want to break up the family (i.e. she doesn't want to be blamed by your children that she destroyed the family).But be aware that her behavior is practically text book and thus you should not feel like your situation is unique.Your W probably has told you that she and OM have ended their PA because she feels that you'll get off her case and maybe to soothe your male ego (we men have a much harder time dealing with our women's PA than they would ours)so that you won't file for D. But make no mistake about it, she is still very much definetely involved, at least emotionally, with the OM. She has said so herself and I would advise you to beleive it.You might want to consider writting her a letter (she'd probably be more receptive to your viewpoint because of your non presence) telling her that while you love her very much and want the M to recover, that you have an obligation to protect emotionally and physically not only yourself but your kids as well and that her reluctance to end the A and to recommitt to the M, will force you, at some time, to take the appropriate and painful actions to comply with said protection and that by that time it may already be too late for any reconciliation. Acknowledge that if you were in her shoes you'd probably be saying the same things to her about the OW but that time is not on the M side and that you don't know when you will have reached the point of no return. Let her know that her continued honesty with you regarding the status of her affair is very much welcomed and that any lies you discover will hasten the death of not only your love for her but for the M as well. Also let her know that you are there to help her if she needs a helping hand and tell her not to consider these points as an ultimatums but as a preview of things to come if nothing changes for the better.Remember to treat her with kindness and respect (even though she hasn't reciprocated)because by doing so you are also doing it to your children and to yourself as well.Plan A not so much to win her back, but to make changes in yourself that will make you an attractive person to be around with even if you two get divorced. DON'T EXPECT ANY of your EN's to be met by her while she is 'in the fog' because you will be sadly disappointed and will empty your love bank account much faster and make any marital recovery much more difficult for you emotionally speaking.And lastly, don't be clingy and get a life outside your M. Do volunteer work for a worthy cause, go to a game with a male friend, take your kids to the park and play with them (if they're still young enough), join a gym and start working out, read inspirational books, enroll in some dancing classes, etc. Often times when a BS starts living his/her life and no longer bothers the WS, the WS starts to take notice and starts to realize that you are not only surviving but thriving after the ordeal of the A. This realization can be a very sobering experience for many a WS.Good luck and God blessJoe

"I've told her that at some point, the contact has to stop, but that I accept that this is all she is willing to do at this point"Amazing! You've given her the green light to continue her affair. There is no reason for her to stop so why should she. She figures correctly that your fear of loosing her will make you condone her affair. Your wife sounds like a very smart gal.

Physical contact means next to nothing for most women. But, you don't need us to tell you that. You see it in her behavior. She can stand the lose of the physical contact with him but she is not ready to lose the emotional contact with him. Emotional contact is far more dangerous.No contact is absolutely necessary.[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Bunky ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Amazing! You've given her the green light to continue her affair. There is no reason for her to stop so why should she. <hr></blockquote>Baffled---just tell her to stop. That'll work... If there was a way to force another person to end an affair and return to the marriage,I think we'd have discovered it by now.This negotiation phase isn't uncommon, but you should treat it as an ongoing affair (which it is). If you've been in Plan A for 4-6 months and it's been a good Plan A, you need to think about moving to the Plan B separation.

Baffled,I am diging my past ... the past 5 years my WW has contact even after she promised to end it. Now I am facing OM again ... too painfull. I wish I walk out on M 5 years ago. End the A properly or no recovery in your M. Remember, Harley always said "The road to recovery is very narrow". You have to do it right. If W still wants a contact, A is not ended, you decide if you still could do plan A. As long as there is a contact there is no chance of recovery in your M.Also call Steve or Jennifer to get their advice.[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]

Well! having been in a similar spot last spring I really recommend that you read the book Love Must be Tough by James Dobson right away!!! have you read it?He has counseled many couples in this situation and he goes over the pros and cons of Plan B. My H had several setbacks after d-day, just like your W his was a heavy EA/PA and he kept saying that he could just be 'friends' with her and end the PA part. I kept telling him that's not enough but he kept keeping up the contact with her- first when I knew about it then even after he tried to keep it secret- then even after she took a job transfer to another state I caught him STILL calling her talking the sweet talk with her and lying to me about it!( this was even after he had moved out for 6 wks at my request and had moved back in but was sleeping on our couch saying he wanted to reconcile with me! A serious EA is an addiction! You wouldn't tell your W that just one beer wouldnt hurt if she was an alcoholic would you??? Plan B and read that book ASAP and dont expect miracles right away. Some things take a few wks of patience! AFter having been where you are at now and not wanting my marriage to end I just wish I had taken a more strong stance with him right away and not waffled myself during my months of emotional agony!I think that he would had more respect for me too! Take care- lifeismessy

Yes, I know that this is an ongoing, active affair, whether or not they stick to the no-PA part. My wife just won't stop seeing him cold turkey. She talks about "weaning" off him. I guess I feel like I have to give this some time to show her that this won't work. Or for her to show me that it will (very doubtful). What I am looking for is evidence that at least the frequency of contact is decreasing.

Baffled:Well, I can no longer say that "allowing contact to continue" and ignoring it as a plan of working on our R just simply WON'T work. Please see my thread "Praise Jesus (and I'm an atheist!)... possible big step in MC today" for what happened to me yesterday at MC meeting. I wish there were another way, because in my case the contact appears to really be pretty infrequent (like once or twice a month via email), but the emotional attachment of my W to this [censored] OM is still strong, even though she had ended the PA last summer, ende the EA (or so she thought) last November, and had actually improved our M (again as she thought, but I felt good as well) from December through mid January, when I found out about A. Her fog is pretty dense, as is her gray matter, right now. I really do think that she's not the person I married, or shared my life with up until 11 years ago. I feel like giving up. I feel like I've let down several people on this forum with my "waffly" advice about contact. I feel like a chump.

Baffled,
Unless one of them wants to end the relationship and begins the tapering off process, further contact leads to further contact.If you've given permission for these coffees, how about asking to go to coffee with them? If it just coffee, and they are just friends, heck, why not [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ? Her reaction might tell you where her loyalties are headed, ie "I wouldn't want to make OM uncomfortable" means he's higher on her emotional priority list than you.K is right that you can't force her to stop seeing him, but you can state that you do not support it and want it to stop now. State your feelings, not an ultimatim.

Lor:I like your idea of stating the no contact requirement as something you won't support, rather than an ultimatum. It's amazing how subtle the differences in meaning are, though. In my MC meeting yesterday, she kept telling me that I was sounding demanding of my W. I assured her that I was not (I've gotten pretty good at saying what I really feel in a clear, concise manner! D-day has done wonders for me! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] ) W still thinks I'm being demanding. Tough $hit, since the alternative is to ignore the problem. But I'm reallly not.

just reread my own post! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] MEANT to say "I like your idea of stating the no contact requirement as by pointing out that continued contact is something you won't support, rather than an ultimatum. "Gee, can I be clear and concise or what? WHAT! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

2long - <blockquote>quote:<hr> Well, I can no longer say that "allowing contact to continue" and ignoring it as a plan of working on our R just simply WON'T work. <hr></blockquote>I'm unclear here. Are you saying that allowing contact to continue may work? Or are you saying that it definitely won't work? My own opinion is that she *must* go through withdrawal from this guy, which means at some point no contact. What I am wondering is if the best way to get her to buy into the no-contact thing is to be patient and hope/pray that she sees she needs to leave him.

Baffled:"I'm unclear here. Are you saying that allowing contact to continue may work?"No. That's what I was doing, figuring W wouldn't agree to no contact but that we were making some R progress in spite of it continuing. The plan was to make it clear I didn't want to HEAR ANYTHING about OM (not that she would have told me anything, but maybe) as a means of making my point about the importance of working on our R to me, and making an indirect point that I don't want OM in our future. make sense? In any case, it didn't fly with MC."My own opinion is that she *must* go through withdrawal from this guy, which means at some point no contact."Yep. She has to conciously decide to withdraw, though."What I am wondering is if the best way to get her to buy into the no-contact thing is to be patient and hope/pray that she sees she needs to leave him."That's exactly the right way to go about this. Through a reasonable Plan A timeframe, of course. For me, that's going to be on the order of 6 months from now, I think. Then a firm plan B, during which I just might get the lawyers involved in dividing our assets at that point, and let some new owner finish the house (though I'd really hate to do that, and hope I never have to)

I wish I HADN't waffled so much with my WH last year when I was going thru this. Because I have even more painful memories to cope with this year than had he ended it soon after d-day. Of course thats not to say I'm not greatful to be IN RECOVERY. I just wanted to say that the withdrawal period can last a few months- just to let you know. My H still didnt want intimacy during that time and was depressed and moody- said he was 'waiting to see if his feelings for me would come back' OUCH!Thank goodness I had read Harley's book and knew this could happen. After a few months he became more and more like his old self though and his attraction to me came back. So here's hoping you can end up on the recovery board too! Take care- lifeismessy

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Baffled:
Yes, I know that this is an ongoing, active affair, whether or not they stick to the no-PA part. My wife just won't stop seeing him cold turkey. She talks about "weaning" off him. I guess I feel like I have to give this some time to show her that this won't work. Or for her to show me that it will (very doubtful). What I am looking for is evidence that at least the frequency of contact is decreasing.<hr></blockquote>That can actually cause more harm than good. Torn Asunder covers this in detail - how the weaning actually legitimizes the relationship for them and strengthens it. I advise serious caution with such a course of action. My wife tried to wean herself and the A flared back up even stronger than before -- exactly like the book said it would.

Hey guys (and gals):I think there's no doubt that "weaning" yourself off an affair rarely (if ever) works. But there's not a lot you can do about this---the wayward spouse needs to end the affair because they don't see a future in it. Any external influence you exhibit in an attempt to end the affair(education, threats, etc.) is likely to be useless (at best) or a major lovebuster (at worse). Counseling can be a way to educate a wayward spouse---but if they haven't ended the affair upon discovery, that's usually unsuccessful.What is successful is where the affair blows up in their face. Then they come to the brilliant conclusion "hey, this wasn't such a hot idea..."

K:"Counseling can be a way to educate a wayward spouse---but if they haven't ended the affair upon discovery, that's usually unsuccessful."What if they THINK they've ended the A, but haven't really (i.e., they want to be "friends" and have the secret life anyway)?"What is successful is where the affair blows up in their face. Then they come to the brilliant conclusion "hey, this wasn't such a hot idea...""What if it doesn't blow up, but just smolders? My W decided that her A was not a hot idea back in October/November 2001. She THOUGHT she had ended the EA in November. She's STILL trying to cakewalk, though, and is only just now realizing that's what it is. But I STILL don't know whether she'll really break off contact with OM completely, or if she even values our M more than her illicit friendship with Rat Meat... I mean OM.

2long,In the situation you describe (a WS who seems to be ready to recommit to the marriage, but on their own goofy terms), the best thing to do is to get into counseling. There the MC can handle these no contact issues (in their time, of course).Your job is to help your WS "fall in love" with you, to the point where you are able to bring up no contact and not have them immediately recoil.

W read SAA last night - at least the part up to the recovery section. We are almost exactly like Jon and Sue - so much so that it is scary. She recognized that, which I think is good. I think she was under the impression that her R with OM was unique - no one felt as intensely as she does, etc. She said she really felt that Dr. Harley was the first person she's come across that seems to understand what is going on with us. She's open to telephone counseling with him, so I think I'll set that up for next week. Anyone have an opinion on telephone counseling? Is it helpful? Should we do it together or separately?

K said:the wayward spouse needs to end the affair because they don't see a future in it. Any external influence you exhibit in an attempt to end the affair(education, threats, etc.) is likely to be useless (at best) or a major lovebuster (at worse). Counseling can be a way to educate a wayward spouse---but if they haven't ended the affair upon discovery, that's usually unsuccessful.Does this mean that, in general terms, if the WS does not end the A immediately upon discovery, you're destined to a Plan B? I mean if counseling is "usually unsuccessful", presumably during Plan A, then what other options are there?

Baffled:WOW! That your W is reading and identifying with SAA is a monstrously GOOD sign! I would take as quick an advantage of her desire to talk to the Harleys as possible. Do it on her terms. If she wants to talk to them herself, let her. If she wants to talke to them with you, jump right in!Good luck to you, guy. Things are happening!

Spacecase: <blockquote>quote:<hr>Does this mean that, in general terms, if the WS does not end the A immediately upon discovery, you're destined to a Plan B? I mean if counseling is "usually unsuccessful", presumably during Plan A, then what other options are there?<hr></blockquote>Plan A does several things for a betrayed spouse. First off, it allows them to assess the state of the marriage, and to acknowledge and correct issues from the ws's point of view. This is an "unusual" response. Second, Plan A can be used as a negotiation tool for the WS to end the affair. You can (and should) be completely honest to the WS in terms of letting them know that you don't approve of the affair, and you can let them know that you're willing to do "what it takes" to have them end it. Third---most affairs will end within a couple years of being "outed". Plan A is to bide your time and leave your ws with a good impression of what you were like, because when you get to Plan B, she's going to have that recent "Plan A" history in the back of her mind. When the affair ends, a ws will be more likely to return to the marriage if they know that there's less chance for retribution.Plan A can be successful on it's own. But it's often the set-up for Plan B. The best results are doing this under the guidance of a professional like Steve or Jenn.

Set up telephone counseling for April 30. Question - I haven't been as overt as I should about the fact that I think no contact is an absolute necessity. Should I wait and let Dr. Harley do that? Or should I let her know that right away? I was thinking it might be perceived as less of an LB (demand) from him. Or I guess I could just ask what she thought of the part of SAA - it's pretty unambiguous about contact.

Baffled:I wouldn't ask her a pointed question about anything that might cause her to feel LB'd by you. Let HER ask YOU. But you might want to ask something like: "what do you think of what you've been reading? Is there anything that you think we should talk about that might relate to our situation now?" [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Baffled:I guess there is another thing to consider here, that I don't always make clear about my own situation. Your W may be coming farther back to your M than you think, as I sometimes think there are signs of in my own sitch. What I mean is that I have a tendency (and most people probably do, too) to overinterpret or overreact to what I think is going on, especially when I'm not given enough information to work with. My imagination runs rampant. So, asking SOMETHING about what she's feeling about what she's reading is certainly better than doing nothing, but since you don't know much yet about what she is thinking, asking without LBing is definitely the first order of business.Take care.