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Today I am having a rare moment of clarity (not angry or depressed) so I can reflect on a few things and hopefully improve my Plan A.

There is a lot of anger anytime the idea of NC comes up. WW still insists that she has the right to maintain friendship w/ OM because of the physical distance. She has no friends of her own (big big prob) so the need for OM is that much greater. Although she does not say it I know she is still in love w/ OM. Her conversations w/ OM seem benign at the moment but today I confirmed her feelings for him. Oddly I was relieved to find this out, I guess its better to know where I stand.

I have had the following realizations which I suppose should have been obvious from the get go. WW does not feel safe in our M. Our M is something that she has given up her dreams for with nothing to show for it. She sees me as someone who is not motivated to achieve and with whom she cannot share her zest for accomplishment.
Our M is something that limits her freedom to pursue her goals.

There have been rare moments when she feels emotionally closer me. These are times when she sees me working to accomplish a goal, be it home improvement, personal improvement or work. This seems to be the one foothold I have in trying to save our M.

I am wondering if MC is going to be a waste of time, at least she feels safe enough that she wants the marriage to work. Right now her attempts at following through w/ what the MC tells us are half-hearted at best. I think she is only going along w/ it due to guilt or a sense of obligation. She is starting to view MC w/ suspicion, an attempt to change her into a "good" wife.

Plan A right now consists of:
- working on making myself more attractive by working on goals and making sure she sees the changes.
- Making our M safe for her by supporting all of her goals.
- avoiding LB's.
- I'm not sure what EA's I can meet, she does consider Affection or SF important. Financial and domestic support are the only things I can meet but I don't know how much those are even valued.

I need to find a way to achieve some level of emotional distance to be sucessful. I cannot work on improving myself if I continue to be consumed by anger and depression. The hardest part about this is that while this is going on my EA's are not going to be met at all and this could go on for a long long time. Eventually it will just hurt too much.

M 2yrs
BS Me - 30
WS W - 28
EA 5/2003 - Present???
D-Day 10/4 - NC immedieate or so I thought
C 10/29
In Plan A now

Hi jgnc.
Distancing yourself is very difficult. But it sounds like you have a clear plan. The hard part is applying it and dealing with the emotions that come along with it.

Dr Harley has recommended only if you feel it necessary talking to your health care provider about medications that may help. I also use a site that helps me channel in on irrational thoughts and anger which get in the way of my goal, it is : www.rational.org.nz. I am not perfect and sometimes I slip back but I try to keep in mind my goal in this. I read a lot and try to understand the inconsiderate hurtful nature of the WW in the EA.
I also find comfort in spitutal things and try to remember that this won't last always. It is a journey that I have chosen to travel so it is going to take a little time out of my life. Anyway, these are a few things that have helped me. I wish you the best.

Heya JGNC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm getting ready to go into Plan B next week so I don't really have any great insights for you.

As freetobe said, are you on anti-d's?
Are you still talking to your friend about all this?
Are you still writing in your journal?

I wish there was some wonderful bit of advice I could give you, especially about the emotional distance. For about two weeks I sort of felt like I had an emotional scab built up but I have no idea how it happened. I think mainly I was just talking to several people, and was starting to think more and more about my future and what I would like to do if in the end the marriage didn't work. I don't know if that's a good idea really, but for me it helped to realize that no matter what I would be okay in the end.

In any case eat chocolate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then exercise hehe. Both can help improve your mood. Maybe go spend some time regularly with friends.

I do have one question though...why does your marriage limit her freedom to achieve her goals? Is that a fact? Or is it something she simply perceives to be true? Are there ways she could persure her goals while in the marriage?

Freetobe, thanks for the resource I will take a look at is as soon as I can.

Sio, I wanted to reply to your last message in JFO but didn't know how. Glad you are still around and working on yourself(plan b). To answer your questions,

I'm not on anti-D's. Although the last 2 weeks have been very hard I honestly hope it does not come to that.

I'm talking to 2 friends who have full knoweldge and most know that there are "problems." One I'm kinda giving up on, he's a good friend, just doesn't have the life experience. The other is a college friend who went through a divorce after roughly 2 year of marriage. He understands and has been a great help.

I'm not really journaling much, just can't find the time. I know I should.

As far as your last question its a combination of fact and perception. Fact, moving ended her career (for the time being). I was not supportive of her pursuing a graduate program at a prestigious university (that is 800 miles away). Fact, since I graduated college I have not been very goal oriented. Ofcourse this greatly simplifies these issues but that is how she sees it. In her mind I am doing everything I can to control who she is. My attempts at pressing for NC are seen in the same light. yeah yeah fog, whatever...

Anyway, yes there are ways that she can pursue her career and I would make any changes necessary to do it She says she can't live w/ someone who does not share those same values, it brings her down and keeps her from achieving her own. She thinks I put my need for domestic comfort ahead of her need for achivement. I can see why she says that. We had some lofty goals that I did not live up to when we moved but I don't think that is the whole of it. Whatever my faults there was no well concieved plot to turn a career woman into a barefoot housewife.

Maybe I'll take the time to write this out in a well thought out way. What's above just does not read to well.

well she's in her office with the doors closed typing away at the computer. She's been moping about since I got home today but now I can hear her occasionally chuckle at something. My guess is she's talking to OM.

I guess this begs the question: how much do I press her for NC? Do rely on my Plan A actions to hopefully bring her around or continue confronting her. Last time I did was horrible, beyond all of the verbal/emotional abuse she laid on me, she pretty much threatened to kill herself.

I don't know as much as some of the others around here, but I am in plan A and there is a slight lifting of the fog so I will offer up what I have done.

Stop confronting about the contact with OM. I stopped asking where my H was going and when he would return. I did not mention OW at all. You only make your W mad when you do and encourage her to go to him.

I always make suggestions for something we can do together. Then H either has decide to come along, leave, or (most recently and the most difficult) I go without him.

I have tried to adopt a "dating" mentality. When you are dating someone you don't demand their time or get upset if they go out with someone else. You look for opportunities for you and that person to spend time together and you put on your best behavior (ie. the changes you should be trying to make in yourself) to try to impress them. You will be more in control of your emotions if you try to think this way.

Don't react if they don't want to spend as much time with you as you do with them. When I started letting go a little I saw big improvements and my H commented that he felt better too. You can't hold on tightly and try to control her. When she is ready to give up H then ask for NC. You can't demand it from her. Work on preparing / bettering yourself for what has to come next.

Look at it this way...you are preparing for a new marriage - either with your W or with someone else. If you want it to be with your W then you have to buckle down and put the MB principles into place. I also encourage reading about 180 degree changes. I was hesitant but they are working. Stay in Plan A and keep living together.

firefly

firefly,

Thanks for the response. Right In the past week I have been doing pretty much just that. The anger/depression lifted enough that I was able to really do a good Plan A. And I have seen some small positive changes. Today, as of literally 3 hrs ago, its a different story and now I'm really angry and just wanting to tear everything down around me. It's like a chemical resoponse, I can feel the adrenaline. I feel like I'm just creating a situation where she can do as she pleases w/out any accountability. She wants this to all be consequence free. It's up to me to get over what happened and trust that she will not let their R get to that point again. What kind of fool does she take me for?

enraged,
jgnc

jgnc,
I understand your highs and lows. Been going through it for 8 months now. The WS doesn't accept responsibility for their actions, nor do they recognize any consequences. Everyone else has the problem, or is seriously messed up, or whatever... My WH's fog is finally starting to lift (I think, I hope...), and he's just now realizing the financial bind his selfish behavior put us in. For months, I scrambled around, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, because he left work early each and every day to pursue R with OW!!! He didn't think about what he was doing to us, nor did he care what I had to do to get the bills paid. I could have robbed a bank for all he cared. NOW, he sees the pile of debt, and has finally accepted responsibility for it.

My WH did do whatever he pleased, most of them do and don't think twice about it. My WH just recently told me that he can't trust the OW, and expects her to cheat on him (because she has), but that if I did it to him, it would devestate him... Almost as if it was OK for him to do it to me... FOG is a difficult thing to deal with.

All I can say is, if you really want your M, be strong. You'll feel like a doormat somedays, accomodating her when she really doesn't deserve it, but just remind yourself. Would you rather the OM meet her needs, or you beat him to the punch?

I know it's hard. Hang in there.
MOP

jgnc,
Yes we are all rooting for you. Hang in there. Happy Thanksgiving to you.

IMO you should speak to one of the counsellors on this website to find out whether you are doing Plan A too long and should be moving on to a plan B especially when your wife is still continuing her contact with the OM.

Everybody, thank you for the kind responses.

Well D-Day was little less than 2 months ago and a good plan A started only 1 week ago. Today, basically I stumbled. Before coming home I drove around for a while and did some errands... things that would help me feel better and show to her (and myself) that though I had stumbled I was picking myself back up. I'm still angry and unsure how to proceed, but the anger is not dominating me.

The problem I have with NC is that as firefly said if I confront her, I push her away. If I don't she will mistakenly believe that I am somehow over it and trust her to keep the R a friendship. On the surface, which is all I'm able to see, she is doing a good job of keeping it benign. I have suspicions that she still has strong feelings for this man. How could she not?!
At best she is keeping the EA dormant. There is a deep commietment there, 5 years ago when they first met they made an instant deep commitment, now that I understand better I see that she was the OW in an EA with this man. It turned really ugly when she saw what was developing and ended it. It cost him in his workplace and at home. Now after 5yrs of NC they took the EA much further. Regardless of how wrong she knows it to have been those feelings could not have gone away.

Originally posted by jgnc:
The problem I have with NC is that as firefly said if I confront her, I push her away. If I don't she will mistakenly believe that I am somehow over it and trust her to keep the R a friendship.

JGNC,
I'm in a similar situation. I'm in Plan A. I've talked to my WF about NC. He has agreed before only to break his word. Well now he is trying harder but I know he is vulnerable. Have you told her that you do not want her to keep F with OM?

From what you've said your WS has 5 years History with lover. That they've maintained a
R so long may seem discouraging. But she may very well want to save her M with you still. So hold on. Have you discussed saving the R?

Myself and WF have been working on this for about 2-3 months now. However I have hurt some of my efforts by LB. I have also undermined some of my efforts by tipping my hand revealing my discovery of certin things. I didn't understnad that I wasn't suppose to do this at the time.

I made the mistake of trusting what WF was saying, that A was over. However I didn't realize he was lying. So when I found out he had lied it devastated me to the point of almost giving up. I thought it should have been easy for him to just give it up.

Had to change my view point. Didn't understand addicitve nature of A and the difficulty he might have letting go. He saw OW as a lover but also as a friend because OW was there for him when I in times past was not and vice versa.

Now that I understand this and many other things, I've tried to get a little wiser about my intent and efforts going forward. I have made it clear that NC has to happen for trust to be rebuilt. However it can't as long as contact is there. So if WF chooses to make C, I realize that A is still going on, thus recovery can't begin until it is. SO I know Plan B may be a step if Plan A doesn't work. ALso I do not discuss it as often. Only irritated WF. Now I observe and if conact is made I note it and continue to try to build love deposits (as he will let me) realizing that I may have to go to Plan B.

I was obsessed wanting to know this and that. Now I try to take in info(discovery) as to how it may help me. I've learned taking in too much only frustated me. When an oppurtunity presents itself to calmly discuss our R. I try to reiterate what I feel about NC and why. I also have discussed the Policy of Joint Agreement with WF and try to live this one myself though it is difficult. I try to listen and observe more, talk less. ALso compliments him when he allows me in and when he talks it over with me.

She may know that you don't want her to have F with OM but may feel it difficult to change. You want to be there for her through this as she will allow you to. Yes, you are doormat. You want to be the attractive alternative so that she may turn to you more. Well this is my 2 cents. I hope it may help you some.
Wishing you the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

just one clarification, though they have a 5 yr history, their F (EA?) ended 5 years ago and restarted 9 mo ago.

Anyway I wish I had read your response last night. Last night was bad, real bad. Work has been a problem the past 6 mo. and discovery of the EA has only made it worse. My boss basically intonated that if there are layoffs I am a likely candidate. Combine the stress at work and the EA and it lead to a breakdown. I hid in a dark room and tried to quietly vent the anger and pain. She tried to help me even though she could tell I was very angry. It was some time before I let her.

I told her what was going on a work. To my surprise she was very supportive. She also suggested I find an IC to help me deal with the combined stress. We also ended up talking about NC which was a hard thing for her. She so badly wanted me to know that our M was much better than I thought and that she could maitain F w/ OM and be faithful to me. By the time I got to bed I was thinking that she wanted me to go see an IC so that I could cope and she would not have to do NC. I was wrong. Right before we went to bed she told me that she had removed him from her friends list and blocked his e.mail address.

I'm still looking for an IC today. I was very wrong to think I could deal w/ this stress on my own. My biggest concern now is that I know how hard it was for her to initiate NC. I know she did so because she saw how much pain it was causing and to give me something good that would help me pick myself back up. Withdrawal likely to be hard.

Gosh, JGNC
Good news that WS actually told you about taking OM off the friend list, tried to comfort
you. If I may, I would like to ask you if you haven't already to let her know how much you
appreciated that. That is a little step, but significant step. What I wanted
to tell you though is to guard your heart just as you have stumbled she may also.
SO if she seems to slip up listen, help and reiterate as you can but try not to LB.
I so identiy with what you are saying about thinking that she didn't want the M only
to find out she did.
Sorry to hear about your Job. Really hope that things will turn out in your favor. Hope also that you will find a good IC to work through stress. Wishing you the best.

well my plan now is to first, thank her properly. Last night was just too hard and surreal to do so properly. Also continue working on myself. I expect her to stumble just like I have and I know just how difficult maintaining NC will be for her. I will do my best to tell her how important her honesty about contact will be and I will not LB if I discover or she admits to contact. Most importantly, redoubling my efforts to meet conversation, honesty and admiration needs as best and as sincerely as I can.

best wishes to you all as well.

Hi JGNC,
Sorry for my late reply. It sounds like you have a plan. I'm working on one also. WF and myself are in Plan A. I C OW H and OW actually came to our home to rant. C is suppose to be over. In the meantime I am working on myself more.

Everytime that I read that your are working on yourself, it really encourages me to do more too. Sometimes I get stuck on him when really it is more important to focus on what I'm doing, what I'm doing.

I think you are doing great and moving in the right direction <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . As always wishing you the best.

jgnc,
you made a statement that i found very interesting.

"There have been rare moments when she feels emotionally closer me. These are times when she sees me working to accomplish a goal, be it home improvement, personal improvement or work. This seems to be the one foothold I have in trying to save our M."

are you saying that she does realize that your efforts to save this marriage consitutes working to achieve a major "goal" in your life...probably what you consider the single most important goal in your life presently!? if not then shouldn't this be discussed?

judging from your posts, your W sounds like a pretty likeable lady...not your basic irrational cheating spouse, LOL something or some one definetly more cerebal! a cut above if you will. LOL! but that doesn't mean she really "gets it."

although she sounds like she cares my question is how much? i mean would she care about anyone she knew in the situation your in...equally as much...or are you special because you're you... or maybe because she feels responsible for the situation?

the thing is, your W has deamons of her own to deal with...and these deamnons are not of your making. please tell me where it's written that married woman can't also be accomplished achievers? that they can't also go out into the world and meet goals and objectives important to them and their lives?

it sounds to me as if maybe she's afraid that she doesn't have the ability to meet her own goals in life and would rather cast blaim for her fears in another direction...

one last thought. if it were me i wouldn't get to gushy about thanking her for doing what is clearly the "right thing", (giving up contact with the OM.) if she features herself to be an indepemdent woman that she shouldn't need your affirmation for doing the adult, indeed, the correct thing.

coach

Fretobe,

Thank you. It is so easy to get stuck. For me at least, it seems to come from not knowing. During the EA, when she was saying things like "I on't know if I married you for the right reasons" or "I'm not happy being married" I had no idea what was really going on or what to do about it. Because of that she got to see the worst side of me. The more I learn the better I get.

Of course there are stumbles

Yesterday was odd, in the morning I found out that their contact had not been as benign as I had thought. Again there was a record of an... inappropriate IM chat. Because it was dated from before she agreed to NC I did my best to let it go. Not dwelling on the past if I can help it. Later after I got home I heard the IM chime indicating she had just recieved a instant message. Had to be from OM. After a few moments I walked in her office and she asked me for privacy. After an awkward moment I asked her why? She told me she had to tell him that she could not talk to him anymore. Rather than press my right to know what she said to him I let it go. Later she told me she had written him a farewell message. I know that this isn't a textbook NC letter by any means, but I'll take it.

We have a long road ahead of us. She is reclaiming her independence and there is no telling how a marriage fits into that right now. the idea of committing to rebuilding the marriage is not one she buys into right now. She's taking a much more cautions, lets work on it and see where this goes, no guarantees approach. This drives me MAD but what can I do other than stay in Plan A until she can commit.

BTW OW coming to your house to rant?! I don't know much about your story but that seems... wrong.

JGNC,
Yes you are right it was WRONG for OW to come to home to rant. WRONG. Especially with her being M. So I had to take legal actions for her actions.

WS sent the farewell. Good deal. I can understand you got stuck. We all do because we are humans dealing with other imperfect and somewhat confused humans.

I was wondering how come your WS wouldn't allow you to see the IM chat, especially if he is being ousted. But it is best not to push. Can you read the IM chat as you did before? I have found that I have to guard my heart. Accepting that my situation is what it is and WF may be fickle. He may do right and he may do wrong but I am in Plan A until situation is corrected or I decide to move the Plan B.

Though I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm I will mention a situation that happened to me.
This doens't have to be the case for you but my WF told me on several occasions that things were over, right. This last time he told me that He said he decided that there was too much friction between us to keep C with OW.

So he told OW no more calls. I wondered why this happened and why he wouldn't include me in on terminating A to help promote trust in him. I was suspicious but I didn't push it.

A little while later I read an email where he was busted. I LB I really did. I wished I hadn't. Anyway when I confronted him he said that OW and him had already decided not to go with this anymore. He said he learned the type of person she really was. I don't know what took so long. Anyway,I still didn't want to trust him because he was leaving too much to her.

SO I C her H and some family members. Her H confronted my WF. He told him and me it really was over this time. Though I believe it more this time it will take him building my trust which he is doing now for me to toally trust him. So just know I'm hoping that she did send farewell but, in case not try not to let it shatter you. Have you contact her family your family about what is going on? Well that is my 2cents.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
are you saying that she does realize that your efforts to save this marriage consitutes working to achieve a major "goal" in your life...probably what you consider the single most important goal in your life presently!? if not then shouldn't this be discussed?
<hr /></blockquote>Interesting, I do not think she sees that at all. As important as it is to me, right now I don't think she sees that as a worthy goal. She still views marriage (at least ours) with suspicion. As I see it, its that she wants to be with someone she can admire and will motivate her to excel as well.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
judging from your posts, your W sounds like a pretty likeable lady...not your basic irrational cheating spouse, LOL something or some one definetly more cerebal! a cut above if you will. LOL! but that doesn't mean she really "gets it."
<hr /></blockquote>yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Cerebral is definately a good way to describe her. Maybe a little too cerebral. Her older sister wanted to be Spock, all intellect no emotions. my W is not that bad but has does tendencies to dismiss something that does not make logical sense.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
although she sounds like she cares my question is how much? i mean would she care about anyone she knew in the situation your in...equally as much...or are you special because you're you... or maybe because she feels responsible for the situation?
<hr /></blockquote>I think mostly because she feels responsible. Sometimes I think she cares more about the cat's well being than my own. That's really not fair to her, she is trying more and more. She does not want to cause pain to anyone. There have been moments when what seemed to matter was that her actions somehow meant that she was a bad person, rather than the fact that I was in incredible pain. It angered me to no end, everything was about her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
the thing is, your W has deamons of her own to deal with...and these deamnons are not of your making. please tell me where it's written that married woman can't also be accomplished achievers? that they can't also go out into the world and meet goals and objectives important to them and their lives?
<hr /></blockquote>It's not written anywhere. But the fact is that she left her career when we moved. This happened because we could not afford to live on just her salary and at the time the job prospects for me were very bad. So, look at the inequity in women's pay, the various messages telling women to get back into the home and raise children along with the personal sacrifices she has had to make and that's the message that you end up with.
There have been mistakes in the past and her defenses are making it very hard for her to trust that it could be different in the future.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
it sounds to me as if maybe she's afraid that she doesn't have the ability to meet her own goals in life and would rather cast blaim for her fears in another direction...
<hr /></blockquote>I have often felt this way. Her fear of failure has been crippling to her in the past. At those times I have been there for her, just like when she was hurt so badly by depression. Somehow, because I have always been there, she has come to believe that I want her to be dependent on me. Nothing could be further from the truth.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
one last thought. if it were me i wouldn't get to gushy about thanking her for doing what is clearly the "right thing", (giving up contact with the OM.) if she features herself to be an indepemdent woman that she shouldn't need your affirmation for doing the adult, indeed, the correct thing.
<hr /></blockquote>yeah, plus she is still somewhat resentful for having to do so.

freetobe,

She believes privacy is her inalienable right. I let it go because, better to have her tell OM that she can't talk to him, than have a fight over this. It was not the right time to pick that battle. I can't see the chats anymore, she's disabled logging. I could enable it again. I guess the hardest part is that I want to be able to trust her. She's finally giving me reason to, before I can trust her word though we will have to have a number of serious talks about honesty.

I'm re reading what you said and I will heed your warning. My desire for things to be allright has always been my undoing.

Its hard to see what kind of future we have together. It's hard to say what's still fog and what isn't. (I hate all of theses labels). She still talks of vows and commitment as if they were tools of coercion. We have to find our way out of this and figure out what we want this M to be.

Oh, no I have not talked to any family members. It's a sad thing but I do not trust either of our families to react constructively. In our case, it would be an act of punishment.

jgnc,
Seems that you already got the idea tha WS might not have been doing what she said, giving (farewell). Well hang in there. I think you are making a real effort and strides in the midst of many obstacles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I can relate to what you mean about exposing to family. Is there anyone your WS respects that she would listen to if you exposed it to them?
Also there is a link that I'm leaving, if you are interested check it out. I was reading what you said about WS being somewhat cerebral (primarily intellectual in nature). Was she this way when you married? How did she show affection? What about you how do you show affection? Does this mean that she distances herself from you and acts more like a cold hearted? Just wanting to get a feel for her nature? Has she become this way more recently? Or has she been like her sister (Spock) all along?

Sometimes I think as the previous poster brought up that people try to put up barriers and excuses to keep from looking in the mirror. But that is neither here nor there so anyway I saw a strategy for a couple that were going through a tough time. One that the BS spouse employed. It may or may not of interest you. Wishing you
the best.

Links:
Top post
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=002107;p=2

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=014880#000002

Thanks for the links, as I continue to work on myself I will refer to them.

To answer your questions. I come from a very affectionate family. I think I am more affectionate than most because of this. After her parents divorce I would describe her as a victim of neglect. So she is not very comfortable with expressing affection. She does not have an aversion to affection in general but she does have a low threshold. After a while she will feel smothered. Other times it will just feel unatural to her. She hasn't always been this way but it is in no way a recent thing. I can't really tell when it changed, affection is tied to the way you feel about someone so there have definately been low points in our relationship. When we first started dating people joked that we were like 2 magnets, we had to be next to each other. But that was 8 years ago and things change. She has said some things that seem to indicate that she in not comfortable being with someone that needs so much attention from her.

Recently, I have changed how I express affection towards her, with varying degrees of success. I know that hugs and kisses smother her so I do other things. I try to be mindful that too much physical signs affection can have a contradictory effect so I try to let her initiate it instead. The hard part is that because of the EA my confidence in the M has waned and I constantly find myself looking for reassurance, hence have felt a greater need for affection.

well its been really busy the last 2 days and things feel strangely normal. I've begun to associate "normal" with complacency so its not a feeling I like when I reflect on it. I'm really trying to watch my mood. During the weekend we talked about the A and how we have both dealt with it so far. She felt like I had been trying to punish because. I was surprised because I have been trying hard to avoid doing just that. She felt that the moments where I was showing signs of depression were manipulation to make her feel guilty. She also interpreted my leaving SAA on a table as an attempt to make her feel guilty. Anyway, sorry for the brain dump. This has been the first moment I've had to think about things in the past few days.

JGNC

JGNC, Hi.

Yeah, watching your mood is important for many reasons. Yet it is difficult to do while trying to work on M. But you aren't alone. Post, share how you feel. Talk to supportive friend, journal.

I also relate to the greater need for affection and reassurance. I am just dealing with WW giving it then sometimes not giving it. I've found the rational site to be helpful in dealing with WW rejection/distancing.

Well as I reviewed your post it began to sound familiar to me. It did because I went through a similar phase in my life.

My Story: I am a FWW. When my WF and I met it was great. I was crazy about him. He was crazy about me. But on the inside I had all of these barriers set up about what was ideal to me, as it pertained to myself, to him, and to life.

There were past hurts about certain things in my life that I saw as failures. When he came along I was "the victim".

For a time I let him into my life. But only so far. I was a pretty unhappy person. As we got closer, I couldn't stand it and started pushing him away. Had an A and didn't care (or so I thought) if he knew it or not.

I didn't want any affection or a show of love or anything like it. This sort of thing had surfaced in my life before (in past relationships). I had unresolved issues.

For me I tried not to view emotions as a part of life. I saw everything as black and white. At the same time, nothing was right. I was super critical and antagonistic about most things.

Anyway my WW hung in there with me. Despite my horrible attitude and disposition for a long time. Then we broke up. During this time he met someone. They had an A. I say A because she is married.

Anywho, [I][/I] when I came to my senses I wanted all to be right with the world. Boy was I in a fantasy. I didn't know to the degree of how serious the A was. Also I didn't know the damage I had done.

Well what turned me around? First of all, I realized the problem was internal and that I needed to deal with it(internal issues) now. I grew up some. I realized that he was changing and I thought I might lose him. I blamed him a lot for things also. In that case it took time and changing my perspective to realize my error. We became more like friends. We liked talking to each other and there was no press of it being like a R. However, when I decided to turn around I had no idea the work that lie ahead of me.

Anyway, people do indeed make mistakes. I am grateful that I realized my mistake. I believe you are on the right track trying to work on yourself and with WS. But I believe she too is making a mistake. Also is she seeing a counselor? Someone that may help her sort out what she is feeling now. Have you talked about filling ENs? Hang in there. As always I'm wishing you the best. Sorry this post was so long.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jgnc:
She felt like I had been trying to punish because. I was surprised because I have been trying hard to avoid doing just that. She felt that the moments where I was showing signs of depression were manipulation to make her feel guilty. She also interpreted my leaving SAA on a table as an attempt to make her feel guilty. <hr /></blockquote>What are your replies to her ?. You are doing good ... Care (ENs), protect (no LB), attentions (time) and honesty are 4 gifts of love.

-rh-

Redhat,

My response was one of surprise. I did what I could to explain to her that it was not a punishment. I wish I could explain to her how I have felt these past 2 months. Although she may have seen it as manipulative it was me not being able to cope with some very strong emotions as I had no one to help me through it. I do not discount what she says out right because my parents, in particular my father has a history of being emotionally manipulative and in the past I have been controlling.

She has made the accusation before on many occassions. Sometimes I think it is a defense mechanism. Something will make her feel threatened and she lashes out or she does not want to deal with the consequences of her actions so she lashes out.

The events that she talked about were soon after D-Day when I did not fully understand Plan A, so I let the anger and depression show through and I was not completely honest with her about my emotions or intentions.

The book, I hate to admit, was a manipulation on my part. Not to try and punish her but because I was afraid of her reaction upon me asking her to read it. She is not receptive to books that present some "method" to fix marriage. Rather than build up my courage and face her I left it, hoping that she would read it. She interpreted it as me leaving her a reminder of what she had done.

JGNC,
Orginally posted by JGNC:
She interpreted it as me leaving her a reminder of what she had done.

Hi I'm not sure if you read my comment or not but I was trying to explain that I was under another type of fog with some of the same notions as your wife when it came down to taking personal responsibility for my actions, for my life.

Afterall, though you may have been somewhat manipulative in other ways, was it an error to leave it (book) behind in hopes that she might read it and become informed of what is happening between you?

Though being manipulative isn't the best strategy, does it make her any less guilty for her transgressions because you make an effort to get through to her? I see it as a "If the tree falls in the forest" type situation. Anywho just my thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stand what you beleive w/o LB. You should even admit to her you leave the book intentionally b/c you want your M & you might see if she could benefit to her too. You should tell her that you are comfortable to ask her directly yet, it would takes time ... and say the big S word ... sorry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Don't kick youself ... a LB is defined as a repeated action that withdraw love units.

Note, if she preceived you as a controlling you have the plan A action to change that. One way is being honest and take her input dearly.

-rh-.

[ December 10, 2003, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

Freetobe,

Yes I did read your post, but it was 3am. I really appreciate the insights. I don't really know what to call fog anymore. Some of these behaviors pre-date the EA. This all also goes beyond the EA to the heart of the matter. I think there are still issues that she needs to work out. Thing is, about a year or so ago she simply quit on therapists. She is simply tired of working on herself when no one around her, myself included, was doing anything to improve themselves. We are attending MC but sometimes she sees it as a punishment as well.

We have not talked about EN's explicitly but we are making a better effort to meet them. Enough for things to be comfortable between us. During the upcoming break I'll broach the topic of the EN and LB questionares as both are big issues. Our MC has us working on "7 principles that make marriage work" I think that book will help us as well if the right effort was put behind it.

Yes, leaving the book out was a mistake. She did pick it up and read some of it but I should have asked her to read it. She didn't like what she read. I will take Redhat's advice on this one.

Hi JGNC
Hope WS will be open to to discussion.

Let me ask you a question are you familiar with computer courses, (IT)?

DAMMIT!

I should have known no contact would not be no contact. From what I read she hopes to keep very infrequent contact behind my back.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

JGNC, Hold on before you blow.
Remember what I noted earlier about bracing yourself, brace your heart. WS will lie. How you proceed from this point is important.
If you can calm down it will help before making next step.

well I have maybe 10 minutes before she gets back home and I just want to tear the @$@$$% house down around me. I feel sick and want to throw up. I can't confront her, not right now.

Right now I can imagine you are upset. Undoubtedly I would be also. However A thrive on WS lying and deceit. You may find that just as she is deceiving you she is also deceiving OM.
Did you just find this out? Do you intend to approach her or have you already?

freetobe,

Thank God for your sig...

ok, this happened 2 days after NC was stated so 1 week ago. She is going through withdrawal, cannot bear the idea of not speaking to OM for the rest of her life. She still thinks of a serious R w/ him. Ok, This is a stumble, I was expecting this, I was not expecting the horrible feeling attached to discoverying it. More upsetting than C is the dishonesty attached to it. I have no way of verifying if C has occurred since then. What to do, what to do....

JGNC
How are you now? Do you think you should get away before she comes back?
When I found WS lies in an email, I was literally fit to be tied. Maybe best to step away momentarilty (suggestion).

I just found out no confrontation yet. From what I can tell she is not decieving him.

got to go, she's home now

JGNC
I know you had to go. How are you? I feel for you having to go through this.

Originally posted by JGNC:
"She still thinks of a serious R w/ him. Ok, This is a stumble, I was expecting this, I was not expecting the horrible feeling attached to discoverying it. More upsetting than C is the dishonesty attached to it. "

Yes. The dishonesty of it all hits you with the element of surprise. Like a soldier on the battle field suddenly attacked by the enemy it delivers a crushing blow. It is a stumble+.
How did things go after post?

jgnc,

This is a week ago business ... in A life is very long time ago. See if she has contact, never confront her ... when you are ready, you inform her what you know and ask her what is her intention ... NO LB.

For now, chill out, this is a roller coaster ride of your life so you better have the stomach for it.

Hang in there.

-rh-

Freetobe,

I'm keeping this to myself, for all I know that will be the end of it. Or maybe I'm kidding myself, either way this is not the time to make a quick decision.

JGNC
I agree, not the time to make quick decision.
Besides if you approach her now you may not be able to find out as much because she may start to cover tracks more carefully knowing you are watching.

To keep a clear mind, brace yourself.

The problem now is that any other stress sends me into a tailspin. It's bad, because even if I am not LB at her other stress is putting me past the threshold, the result is she sees that very unattractive side of me. As a whole life is becoming to great a burden.

jgnc,

Are you okay?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As a whole life is becoming to great a burden. <hr /></blockquote>You are trying to deal with a lot of trauma and it sounds as though it may be getting tougher not easier?

I think you should seriously consider anti-D's. If you are philosophically opposed to them or have health concerns, there are herbal remedies that I've heard can be quite effective. If you are interested, I can enquire about ones that are safe and effective from a medical perspective.

As redhat says, the ride is lengthy. It takes a while for anti-d's or other remedies to kick in and give you some emotional stability so don't try to tough it out if you are feeling as low as you sound.

concerned for you...awed

No, I'm not ok, but I will hang in there. I have an IC appointment set for tomorrow.

Stress is just building and building upon itself.
As long as I feel the way I am right now Plan A will fail, I am accutely aware of that, which is adding to the stress.

After seeing how much they helped my W in the past, I am no longer philosophically opposed to ant-D's. I still do not see them as a long term solution. I will talk to my doctor about it, when ever he decides to return my call.

JGNC
Hi. Is the stress that you are dealing with more related to your M or other things? Of course dealing with the M and Inf issues, in itself is stressful. But can you pinpoint what your concerna are right now or whihc areas may be weighing on you more. If it is related to concerns about your M, trying to making some emotional detachment or seperation may be helpful

As previous poster stated, anti-D's may help. Harley recommends them also if you feel it is needed.

If some of the stress relates to trying to control your situation or WS, then you realize that you can't control what is happening but you can control your response. I highly recommend the site that helps you deal with irrational thinking/ addictive thinking. www.rational.org.nz

POst POst POst.

Things change rapidly. Last night when I discovered C I was livid, but I managed to calm down. However I think I was very vulnerable.

Later that night something else happened unrelated to M or work. Looking back yes it was a difficult situation to deal with but I could have dealt with it easily enough. It felt like everything was crashing down around me. The stress was literally debilitating. It was a repeat of last monday when the work issues hit hard. I hated having her see me like that. W helped me out of it but ofcourse it had a cost.

Today I saw her for lunch and I could tell something was wrong. What finally came out of her was that she felt manipulated by my emotions. As best as I can tell, having to care about my emotions prevents her from acting selfishly and she resents it. That's me coloring it. What she said was that because she has to care about my being depressed she has to stay in an unhappy situation and that she deserves better. She also told me that I needed to see an IC. Apparently she thinks there is something wrong with me that is makng me react so strongly to the EA. Apparently I'm too idealisitic, so the EA was more devistating than it should have been. grrrr.

So pick a stress. I'm doing my best to think things through rationally. What I need to do is focus on work, see the IC tomorrow and continue to improve myself. Only by doing this will Plan A be effective.

sigh.

JGNC (JGNC quotes in italics)
I've found in these situations that things do change rapidly. It seems almost like a day to day, week to week, constant, cycle of events that occur. For me it helps to have as much foresight as possible. I mean anticipating that WS may slip up. That this may happen or that. Giving yourself a type of shock treatment. Becasue as sang by the Hollies The Road is long with many a winding turn...

Did you find about the C if it was only a week ago or more recently? If knowing about possible C with OM adds to stressors, and dosen't allow you to do a good Plan A, then it may be best not to know so much about C. However if you can use what you discover with/o LBing to your advantage then it may be helpful.

"I hated having her see me like that. W helped me out of it but of course it had a cost."
What was the cost? Do you feel that you WS expects you to maintain a "strong" apperance all the time? If so, then maybe you will have to find another route to deal with stress and confide in someone else.
"Apparently she thinks there is something wrong with me that is makng me react so strongly to the EA".

Try not to allow WS critcism to side track you. How can an offender tell the offendee (I don't think this is a word) how devastating an event should be?

"As best as I can tell, having to care about my emotions prevents her from acting selfishly and she resents it."

Though WS sounds very selfish, her perspective may be cloudy. Ok you've been manipulative. She has had an A. Your manipulation
doesn't change what she's done. However if WS is stuck at feeling she has to be defensive because you are trying to make her feel sorry for you, then she is missing the point. But if you remove manipulation from the picture she can see her error for what it is, free from manipulative distraction. Plus man. can be seen as LB->annoying bahavior. But you've acknowledged this error.

So you may have to take a different approach in dealing with her. When I had A on my WF, I was totally heartless. Much like your wife I was preoccupied with him being angry with me and what he wasn't doing. When he backed off and as time past, I thought about what I was doing. I felt horrible. I was trying to avoid that. Also I wanted our relationship but I wanted him to pursue me casually. I wanted him to do it more confidently, not desperately. I wanted him to let me know that he wanted me but he could be with me or without me. For you, you will have to observe what your WS is looking for. Of course, fillin her ENs as she will allows, but also listening to her and looking at her actions

"What I need to do is focus on work"

What is stopping you? Your current situation is a portion of your life. It is not your life as a whole. Take the time to focus on other things like your work too. Try not to let this consume you (easier said than done, right?)

The obstacles and difficulty you are facing now is for a time. This too shall pass.
Just my thoughts, opinions.

jgnc
You used the term braindump in an earlier post. From what I understand that is a technical computer term. Do you work with IT and would you answer a few A+, MCSE ? If you do.

freetobe,

only have time for a quick response so for now thank you for your insights. Yes I do work in the computer field but work on unix. I have no A+ MSCE exp. sorry.

J.

Hi. How are you doing? How has it been going?

I want to apologize. I realize that perhaps I have been too suggestive/overbearing in my wanting to give an insightful post that may help you.
Also, as I've taken inventory of my own situation. I realize that there is yet so much work for me to do. I really wish you the best and hope that everything will work out in your favor. If you don't mind I'd like for us to share progress in our sitautions from time to time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Freetobe,

No need to apologize. I apprecieated the post. There were some things in there I needed to hear. I'm slowly learning to pay attention to other things in my life. I was very busy over the weekend so there was no time to respond. Snow bike ride exhausted me on sat and sun I was playing housekeeper all day.

I had the first IC appt last week. I think it will go well. It will help me make the personal changes necessary for Plan A and to turn around things at work.

Unfortunately there is still contact. Yesterday he tried to contact her. She told me about it but I think only because she was pretty sure I had seen it already. I thanked her for telling me. I think she is making an effort but having a hard time with it. For now I'm just monitoring I suppose. We don't have an MC app until Jan because of holiday travel.

Just because there is a lot of work for you to do does not mean you have not learned a lot as well. Sharing progress is good. The one problem I have w/ the few people that know what's going on is that even though they are good friends they just don't know how to help me deal.

Hi JGNC,
I'm happy that there isn't any hard feelings or total annoyance with me.

Getting back to taking care of yourself?
That is good news. Did you enjoy the snow biking and housekeeping?

Is the IC moreso helping you focus on self or the M or both (everything)? I'm actually looking onto finding a MC. But I don't know if I can find one that will support MB. TO me the concepts aren't typical counselor advice.

Sorry to hear about contact. How are you handling it? Had you done any detachment exercises. One was referd to me on the site the other day.

Well I'm wishing you the best and everyone here.

Freetobe,

Snow biking is hard, I was not prepared for how hard. 1hr of it knocked me out for the rest of the day. I think it was 10pm when I finally considered moving off of the couch. Can't wait to do it again though. Housekeeping is well... necessary. She was working on her final paper for a class so I cleaned house.

The plan is for IC to help me handle the stress of the M and work so that I can make the changes necessary in both. IC has a very structured approach, which I like so far. We'll see how it works out. When I looked for a MC I did not find one that used MB principles but when I asked her questions on her approach it seemed MB compatible. Because my W is very cynical of marriage help books I have not discussed MB principles w/ her.

about contact, I was not to angry, mostly disappointed. I think I've somehow accepted that this will go on. Today I found that she had disabled logging and erased all old logs. I'm going to have to find another way. The only thing I am concerned about is that friday we leave for TX to see her family over the holidays, puts us very close to OM and I know she will need to do her Xmas shopping then. This is probably not a rational fear but it has been nagging at me for a while.

Hi.

Snowiwbiking took that much out of you after oly an hour. Sounds really
intense. Are you doing it again soon?

I am considering training for a sport. I've thought about that simulated
rock climbing that many gyms offer. I think is it very interesting.

I hope that the IC will be helpful in relieving stress.

ABout the being near OM. Since yo will be with her, won't you know where
she is going and what she is doing? If she tries to slip out without you
maybe you could ask with her. (Beat her to the punch). In that case you
would've put forth the effort. amybe send a relative with her.

So she has disabled logging. Someone on this site recommended a service that
allows you to get info on every keystroke that was hit during computer use.
I will try to find it and post it back.

Hope the wekedn will be nice for you.

I will definately be trying biking on snow again. Training for a sport is a part of my own self improvement plan and cycling is going to be it. Rock climbing sounds like a lot of fun. I have a few friends that are avid fans. My W and I considered it once. I say go for it.

Yes I will be near her but its just that nagging feeling. Actually since she disabled logging its more than just a nagging feeling. I will have to talk to her about my concerns as much as she will resent it.

JGNC
HI the keylogger thing I was telling you about is listd in Gen Question-> "Tips for catching spouses internet activites and other methods."

Thanks for the link. I now have a registered version but I have not installed it on her PC yet. To be honest I don't know if I will.

We'll be leaving town tomorrow so have a good holiday.

JGNC

You are welcome.
JGNC before you go, if you haven't already I have a question. What would you hope to achieve while being on your trip with your W?

That is a damn good question.

When I think of what I would want to see happen during this break I keep on thinking of things I would like her to see differently but I can't pin my hopes on her. Rather I can't change her.

What I would like to accomplish... I would like to make it through the week presenting a strong confident image . I would like to find the words that express why I do not believe things are fine the way they are.

J.

Gosh,
The question about what you hope to accomplish was posed to me by another poster. When I thought about it we hadn't addressed what you hpe to achieve.

So you know what you want to do for her or show her. What do you want to do for you? What do you want to get out of the time together? Something just for you.

back from the holidays. It was a nice visit with her family. I don't think it could have gone any better. There was only one instance when she felt down for a while. In some ways things seem to be better between us. The time we have spent together seems to be more enjoyable. I had hoped that this time away from computers and instant messeges would help NC happen. Unfortunately yesterdays she sent him a message. It's more disappointing than anything else, though currently it is fueling some negative thoughts that I'm working past.

well I really don't want this post to turn into a book so I'll leave it at that

am I wrong to think this way? In the past couple of weeks I've been setting some goals for myself. This has been part of Plan A, making visible changes in myself that are attractive to WW. Something that my IC said on our first meeting has been sticking in my head. IC said, that we would be making sure that I knew I would be ok regardless of how this ordeal turned out. Since then I have been feeling that I am making these changes not just to be attractive to her but for myself, to prove to myself that I can be just fine on my own. I keep on pondering how I would do if it came to implementing plan B, though I do not want to go there. I also wonder how I would live life as a single man again. A lot of the fog talk I get from my wife just makes me think that there is no happy ending for us and things coming to an end just doesn't feel like a bad thing right now.

I am so ****ing through with this marriage

Hi JGNC.

I'm glad to hear that your holiday was great. My holiday was nice as well. Like you i too feel that it copuldn't have ben better. I am grateful.

Sorry to hear about disappointment with Ws having contact again. but i'd like to share something with you. I know you've been trying hard on your m.

You've posted since day one how you are trying to make changes and do all that you can. Sometimes you've slipped up as we all have but you always staed how you wantd to change yourself to save your M. When WS is doing as she pleases and not seeming to reciprocate it seems likeyour efforts are useless.

But I encourage you to hang in there. I also want to mention to you about detaching. You talked about how your IC was saying to think about things as if you want to do what you do regardless of how this ordeal turn out (or close to this). You mentioned thinking about what it would be beng signle again.

While I can understand that thinking in these terms may seem scary because you have to face the fear of doing exactly what you don't want to do.

You don't want to let your WS go. You hope that she will see your improvements and make the better choice of ebing with you. But in actuality the choice is up to her.

What may help you is to detach from the fear of her making the choice to leave you. Or the fear of letting go of making all of your decisions iwth sving the M as your focal point. I'll post more soon.

Cont'd from earlier.
Sorry so long. Forgive my typos.

"Something that my IC said on our first meeting has been sticking in my head. IC said, that we would be making sure that I knew I would be ok regardless of how this ordeal turned out."

I believe that your IC is right. Allow me to digress for a moment. At the point of finding out about an A, many times the BS takes on the campaign of saving the M. Going through all of the efforts, changing behavors, doing this and that, to save it and making decisions with saving the M as being the total focus. So many times what happens is that the BS gets caught up in what they are doing to make it right and become oblivious to everything else that is going on in their lives. They also forget that WS plays a part in this also. Meaning that of course the BS makes the changes they feel they need to but that doesn't mean that WS isn't isn't accountable for anything also.

But why does this happen?
For me it did because I didn't want to lose my WS so I made hasty decisions and did things out of desperation and fear. Fear that I might lose my WS. I totally focused on what I needed to do and it sometimes paralyzed (figuratiely of course) me.

Well detaching enables you to think clearly as you face the obstacles of trying to save your M, make a good clean Plan A (not perfect but as best you can), accepting that you may have to go to Plan B.

Back to your IC. I believe he/she is right that the BS wants to get to a point of accepting that the stuation is what it is and even if WS leaves he/she will survive. The A doesn't become a total focus in life.
Well here are a few sources, I've found helpful.

Links:
Michelle Weiner Davis divorce busting 180 degree list
www.marriabuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic:f=29;t=003910

Helpful post:
www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultmateebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31:=012269

Michelle Weiner Davis

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000016

Helpful post

From TOOMuchcoffeeman and coach 3530
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000016

Or whatever may be helpul.
I was bumping around in here the other day and discovered that you can do a search for certian issues. If you hadn't yet and think it may be helpful you just click on search above and type in what you are looking for. I found some interesting post that provided other info to help me in other areas of my M also.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Have a good one.

Freetobe,

I agree with my IC I just never thought I would get there. While I still don't like the idea of separating it no longer has that dread behind it. I suppose I have finally accepted that the A is not my fault (another thing the IC is driving in). The changes and goals that I am setting are showing me that the quality of my life depends on my choices not hers.

At the moment when I wrote about wanting out I was in the middle of a huge angry outburst, we had a really bad argument in the car on our way home from a restaurant that started with me trying to understand her ENs and culminated in our yelling out just how much we resented each other. Some good did eventually come out of that arguement but not before I wrote those awful words.

Eventually we got to talking about the A and OM. I was able to explain to her that I cannot tolerate contact w/ OM and explain how hurtful and disrespectful it was for her to desire to continue to contact him. I also told her that I was having a very difficult time trusting her and she seems to want help rebuild that trust. We talked about accountability and though she resents the idea of my having open access to her e.mail and chat logs she said that I could have it if it was what I needed. I have not followed up on it yet. I am in the process of writing a couple of letters to her regarding NC, EN's and LB's. I could never get her to fill out an EN's questionaire so instead I will write to her and ask her to think about her own ENs.

180 has become my motto for 2004.

"We talked about accountability and though she resents the idea of my having open access to her e.mail and chat logs she said that I could have it if it was what I needed."

I found dealing with my WS he hated this. He submitted the info to me though. Sometimes he would try to play a little game with me and tell me he had to have my info too. I told him great that is how it is suppose to be.

I want to make a little suggestion, don't let it get away from you getting her email info. Go ahead and get it in a kind, but non conceited fashion. I have found that WS will tell you one thing at one time then switch up. Your attitude will be important. You slipped up, but hey you are human. So try to be calm and unthreatening.

Goodness, I'm glad to hear that you got some things accross about no contact. About trying still to meet her ENs. Remember that you can't control her though. Remind yourself she still has to make the choice to comply.

It seems that you've wanted to take these steps done but you were somewhat timid or maybe waiting for the right time. I think that so much of this (MB steps) is like confrontaional and it is hard to make expectations and say what you want. It is for me.

JGNC you've been doing great. Keep it up. Ask for what you want but in tempered calmness. I think you are going far. Even if you should have to go to Plan B, you will have learned a lot and tried a whole heck of a lot to change.

Wish you the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

thanks for your response and ecouragement. I hope you had a good new years eve. We are doing pretty well.

The letter, still in progress basically comes clean as to what I know about contact and talks about dishonesty between us. In it I ask her to make the choice to end R w/ OM and to allow me to verify that she is following through with the choice not as punishment but to help rebuild trust between us.

I may post the text of the letter later.

So how have you been faring recently?

JGNC

(Quotes from JGNC in italics)
"I hope you had a good new years eve. "

Thank You. We had a good News Year Eve and I'm looking forward to a good year for myself
and my family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Wishing you the same.

"In it I ask her to make the choice to end R w/ OM and to allow me to verify that she is following through with the choice not as punishment "

A few times before you seemed to touch the issue of motive ligthly. As far as the imporatance of WS understanding your intent and purpose in doing what you were doing. I think the letter is a good idea. If you explain to her what you would like to happen and why she may be more agreeable.

I wanted to write one several times but didn't. I feared becoming too wordy. WS isn't crazy about discussing MB methods. So I wanted to be brief as possible.

This brings me to a question. Many of the female posters say that WH don't like reading the material. How have you felt about it coming from
a male viewpoint? It seems that you've read a lot.

"So how have you been faring recently?"

We are doing pretty good. Things have really been nice between us. Good conversation, good showing of affection, compromising in some things, and learning to just be around each other without the A being at the forefront of our conversation.

He has ended the A. Didn't send a NC letter (for reasons we both felt were important). I agree with sending it and think it is important.
He has maintained no contact, (verified), accounts for his time and financial affairs, and we are doing other things also. I've learned that some of my expectations haven't been met just the way I expected after reading MB info. So my expectations are somewhat lower as far as how I would like for things to happen.

What makes it difficult is that I can't just give him MB concepts and expect him to study them as I have. This means that I have a bunch of info that he does not. So my approach, which is very diffcult at times is live them before him.

I let him know what concerns me and ask him to agree to work with me (adhere to policy of Joint agreement) without just coming out and saying
what it is. I tell him how I feel honestly and ask him to do the same. Sometimes I just do it and believe that he will come along.

Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I do a good job at it and sometimes I mess up. But I've so had it with all of the involvement that the A had in my life. I'm not as preoccupied with it anymore or the insistence that he do exactly what I want him to. I've decided that I want this to work but I can't do it alone. So it is always my desire that he
will come along. But if not then that is that.

Freetobe,

I understand about working one sided. My wife prefers to move along with what feels natural. she finds any book or concept that is presented to her forced or unatural or worse, punishment. She either rejects it or submits half-heartedly. Sometimes I think her need for things to move along "naturally" is an excuse to not put out any effort or to excuse her actions. I keep on thinking, what if we just let things move "naturally" and there is another A?

The letter has been a good exercise, my problem is that when we talk I have to many things I want to say and it gets wordy and jumbled so that it is easy for someone else to pick it appart. By writing it down it forced me to organize my thoughts. The other added benefit was that I could edit the letter and remove LBs from it.
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> This brings me to a question. Many of the female posters say that WH don't like reading the material. How have you felt about it coming from a male viewpoint? It seems that you've read a lot.
<hr /></blockquote>When I first found MB I was just a day or so past d-day. What I found gave me a lot of hope, especially since I saw many of my wife's fears about M addressed here. As a general rule I tend to dislike self-help books so I was not enthusiastic about reading HNHN or SAA. I did not really enjoy the books nor did I like how the material was presented. However, I have found the concepts very useful. The website is a blessing. I suppose being a BS makes one more ready to accept new concepts and methods than before. Part of my wife's rejection of the materials seems to stems from being a WW. She sees it as a reminder of what she has done.

I also wish I could get her to read MB concepts but she won't. It certainly would make things better if we were both enthusiastically pursuing recovery. But that is not the case. In fact she wants to stop our MC sessions soon. She feels it takes us backwards (again punishment). What I have been doing is learning and slowly applying them.

Despite this things are going well. She is putting quite a bit of effort into depositing love units, almost as if she were trying to prove to me she loves me. I have been trying to do the same. The only thing that is getting in the way is that nagging feeling that there is some dishonesty going on. For that reason I need to get that letter to her soon.

It sounds like things are going well over all for you, I hope this is truly the case.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've learned that some of my expectations haven't been met just the way I expected after reading MB info. So my expectations are somewhat lower as far as how I would like for things to happen.
<hr /></blockquote>That seems to be the way w/ all self-help/dieting/exercise/etc/etc books. If you follow the easy steps things will turn around in no time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If the methods are sound which I believe they are then change will occur if one is willing to put in the effort. Lurking around the message boards and reading everyones stories reset my expectations and also helped me to feel better when I could feel myself slipping.

"If the methods are sound which I believe they are then change will occur if one is willing to put in the effort."

Yes, I agree when it comes down to self help. I think one has to make a lot of expectation lowering or maybe I should say readjusting. Then if the methods are sound, with a lot of hard work and practice and effort, one can be successful. I must admit MB is the most challenging self help practice I've ever participated in. I believe in the mthods though.

I see that you are branching out past "Plan A and Plan B" and getting into other issues/ topics. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I hope you'll continue to post to others also. I think you'll be a great helper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi jgnc,

Just wanted to pop in and add another word of encouragement. You are doing well...pat yourself on the back!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The changes and goals that I am setting are showing me that the quality of my life depends on my choices not hers. <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The only thing that is getting in the way is that nagging feeling that there is some dishonesty going on. <hr /></blockquote>So how are you doing at getting this across to her in person, without LBing at all? Can you discuss this issue with her calmly? If so, what do you say? Do all your statements begin with "I feel"? And are they really about feeling, NOT thinking? (as in..."I feel you are still having an affair")

This is crucial -- effective communication allows you to set your boundaries with love and affection instead of repressed anger. (You may not think she notices your repressed anger and/or may not think you feel it, but it truly does screw up conversations between a WS and BS and impedes marital recovery.) And I believe having this honest, straightforward communication gives the WS the clear path home if you do end up in Plan B.

Does that make sense to you?

freetobe,

As usual, you are offering great support and advice!

I challenge one statement though and would like to hear your feelings on it...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've learned that some of my expectations haven't been met just the way I expected after reading MB info. So my expectations are somewhat lower as far as how I would like for things to happen <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps an alternative would be to understand your expectations and readjust them in the short term only, just like you've done throughout Plan A. But then let time and patience and lots of love deposits on your part work their magic...perhaps your expectations are not unreasonable at all, just your path to them in the past...in other words, he'll volunteer to meet them directly as a result of HIS choice to "comply" with your expectations, rather than any coercion on your part (which never managed to convince him that they were worth meeting…right?).

This represents the true partnership I believe results from consistent, fun and wholehearted application of the MB principles.

As per usual, I'd encourage you to read some of the "old-timer" threads right now...people that only apply part of the concepts OR never heal themselves (ie. BS) OR get lazy/stressed, etc....their M recovery is shaky as a result...

I've been thinking that perhaps we should all consider ourselves to be M-damaged and prone to slippage in the future (just like an alcoholic). Therefore as a precautionary measure, no matter how we feel our M (or subsequent relationship) is doing in future, we should remember to check in here occasionally to get a refresher course in what NOT to do in a M!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

for both of you:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My wife prefers to move along with what feels natural. she finds any book or concept that is presented to her forced or unatural or worse, punishment. She either rejects it or submits half-heartedly. Sometimes I think her need for things to move along "naturally" is an excuse to not put out any effort or to excuse her actions. <hr /></blockquote>My H was the same...not interested in reading, rejected the notion that any of these case studies, conclusions, observations, etc. applied to him (even though they almost ALL did! Down to the words as per usual with a WS).

Do you think this is pretty consistent with a WS? Or that they were like this prior to the A as well? (Mine was for sure.)

Perhaps a person who engages in an A -- which is plainly a dreadfully selfish act -- is naturally less-inclined to introspection in the first place? Or as a result of the conditions contributing to the A? (ie. MLC)

What do you think???

Whatever the case: here again, I would counsel patience. Eventually, your S (like mine…he now ASKS me for stuff!) may well become interested, especially if you SHOW them the way (the truth), with humour and gentle persuasion. If not, well...you'll still be much better off as people...right? You have learned so much that will benefit YOU no matter what happens with your spouse.

For example: to have the depth of patience and love required to give love and understanding even though someone else is not doing what YOU want...what a gift that is. To accept that you are in a relationship because you choose to be, and if it ever becomes necessary, you'll leave calmly and rationally after having given the relationship every opportunity...what a skill that is.

You will be a self-actualized individual! Considered VERY healthy by counsellors...not dependent on another but involved in a supportive, non-judgmental, intimate relationship by conscious choice.

But more importantly, what do you think???

Happy new year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> All the best to you and your loved ones in 2004…awed

[ January 04, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]

(Post from awed18 in italics)

"Do you think this is pretty consistent with a WS? Or that they were like this prior to the A as well? (Mine was for sure.) "

Speaking for myself, I recall that before this happened it was difficult to talk to WS about issues such as R. To me he felt that you should just allow things to happen (flow natuarally). He felt that you should do what you felt like doing as it pertained to R.

For myself, I learned to appreciate self helf material. I have enjoyed studying certain concepts and applying using them. So I learned early on that it was ok to do things that didn't just come to mind or that seemed unnatural. He always felt that that made me seem too technical, idealistic and unnatural. As a result we butt heads about many issues.

"Perhaps a person who engages in an A -- which is plainly a dreadfully selfish act -- is naturally less-inclined to introspection in the first place? Or as a result of the conditions contributing to the A? (ie. MLC)"

I intend to answer your question and not confuse you and myself in the process. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW very interesting ?
Here goes. I think that a WS in an A can be introspective. WS can be by learned behavior or by an innate ability.

For myself, I learned from reading materials to reflect upon my feelings and attitudes. This is something that I feel I was definitely not born with.

However with all I had learned I still chose to participate in an A the first go around. So I was fully aware of what I was doing and what was happening on the inside when I chose to behave this way. I had become heartless and uncaring.

As in the case of my WS however I think that he may have become this way as a condition of the A that he was in. OW presented to him something that he really hadn't had before.

She was something he wanted in a R. Made him feel special. Something he wanted from me but didn't know how to get it or how to verbalize what he felt. I hope this answers the ?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So how are you doing at getting this across to her in person, without LBing at all?
Can you discuss this issue with her calmly? If so, what do you say? Do all your statements begin with "I feel"? And are they really about feeling, NOT thinking? (as in..."I feel you are still having an affair")
<hr /></blockquote>It starts w/ a letter. I've put a lot of effort in avoiding DJs and making sure it was clear as possible. The hardest part of the conversation that will ensue will be dealing with her LBs (AO and DJs). Once I became aware of my LBs I've managed to keep a good handle on them. Basically figuring out how to keep from being thrown in to the defensive w/out becoming offensive.

I know all about resentment. There's not much that I can do about the resentment I already feel. The purpose of this letter is to help her take the steps necessary for that resentment to die away.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My H was the same...not interested in reading, rejected the notion that any of these case studies, conclusions, observations, etc. applied to him (even though they almost ALL did! Down to the words as per usual with a WS).

Do you think this is pretty consistent with a WS? Or that they were like this prior to the A as well? (Mine was for sure.)

Perhaps a person who engages in an A -- which is plainly a dreadfully selfish act -- is naturally less-inclined to introspection in the first place? Or as a result of the conditions contributing to the A? (ie. MLC)
<hr /></blockquote>I think it is a fairly human response. When we are told we have a problem it is in our nature to reject it. My W hates to be categorized, same as your H. I suppose I do to. No one wants to be labeled. My W has done a great deal of introspection in the past. Learning to live w/ depression demanded it. In fact one of the problems that exisited before the A was that she felt like she was the only one that made an effort to change. I had issues as well that I should have addressed sooner than I have. Even as the EA went on she recongized what was going. She looked for help online and as a result on and tried to provide me w/ the information to help me give her what she needed to find her way back. I did not understand the severity because she never outright confessed nor did I know what she was trying to do. I think that she did not see the results then contributed to the EA and perhaps made her less willing to want to look into herself yet again. Having to go into counseling this time is now another sign to her that she is damaged in some way.

Have to go now, thank you both for the replies and for getting my brain thinking on these things again.

J.

(Post by JGNC in italics)

"It starts w/ a letter."

JGNC
How's the letter coming?

I've decided I have to tweak my plan in Plan A also. Maybe I can shar eit some time.

awed18, I wanted to answer your challenge about lowering my expectations. I thought your comment on that was good. However I guess I hadn't defined exactly how I was lowering my expectations.

Your comment gave me something to think about. As it pertains to WS I have lowered the expectation of how (the method I use) to get MB concepts accross to him. Also the amount of time and progression I would like to see it in.

It would be so ideal if I could just go to WS, tell him what I've learned and like the kiss of Prince Charming on the princess he would magically appear as, well, my "Price Charming".

He is a wonderful man, but he (as well as myself) has a lot of changing to do. How I explain this to him, and what I expect of him is something that has to be handled very carefully and very slowly.

So I guess I am lowering my expectations as far as the methods (how I work with him in recovery) I will have to use to get to my desired result. I am also lowering how fast and progressive I would like for recovery to be.

Hope that made sense. Thank you JGNC and awed18 for great post and sharing.

letter is done I suppose I keep on staring at it but I guess I just have to recongnize that I can't make it perfect.

Regarding expectations. I think that the only way expectations have been lowered in in regards to how long it will take. MB appears as this wonderful elegant solution. But the truth is there is no silver bullet. MB will only help get us there w/ a lot of hard work.

JGNC

(Quotes by JGNC in italics)
"letter is done I suppose I keep on staring at it but I guess I just have to recongnize that I can't make it perfect."

Yes, you are right. Nothing is perfect. But is there something that concerns you in the letter? If you'd like to place it on the post for me to read and give my opinion I would be more than happy to. Also some posters place their lettters and conversation issues on site to get a different perspectives from different posters.

If not, I wish you the best in presenting it to WS.

well the letter was delivered and she is probably reading it right now. I came to realize that what was delaying me was a fear of her response (and possible LBs). I spent a long time not speaking my mind for that reason and I can't do that anymore.

Things did not go well yesterday although I think good progress was made. WW was/is in a lot of pain. I am feeling pretty numb. I don't think I understood how recovery would be a rollercoaster until yesterday. At one point I really thought that she was going to walk way. Despite all of this some possitive things came out.

She does understand why NC is necessary. She understands that she cannot keep R w/ OM just a friendship. Ending the A is very painful, until yesterday I did not fully understand the depth of the feelings she has for him. Despite that she knows that she would not be happy with him. OM has been meeting some needs and I others. When we were done talking she sent him a message telling him it was over.

Unfortunately accountability is another issue. She refuses to live under surveillance. Who does? She understands why I need to check on her but I think she finds it humiliating. I don't want to check on her but I have to. My hope is that after all we talked about yesterday that if she ever contacts him or if he finds a way to contact her she will tell me before I find out.

I noticed that we are dealing with 3 different issues, First how to handle the A and rebuilding trust after the A. Second identifying and meeting each others ENs. Third identifying and acting on what we each need as individuals to be fulfilled. We have a long road ahead.

The one other thing is that we have decided to stop MC. She did not think it was helping us and that the progress we were making came as a result of spending time w/ each other and some long conversations. I did not want to stop MC but we came to a compromise. We are stopping MC with the following conditions, we must develop a recovery plan, we must track our progress, if I feel we are not making progress we will resume MC, I cannot drag my feet to make our individual attempt fail in order to get back into MC.

I will still participate in IC and infact IC and MB will become even bigger tools as we start our work. I am expecting it to be very hard.

JGNC

Yes it will be hard. But it really sounds like you both are getting off to a great start.

Notice I said you both. Because you've been here trying to sort things out all along. But it is great that she seems to be coming along.

"Things did not go well yesterday although I think good progress was made."

How do you feel it didn't go well? You are compromising with each other and holding each other to be accountable for progress in your marriage.

In the words of Spongebob, "OOOO it all sounds so good".

Did you manage not to LB while discussing with WW? Even if it didn't come off the way you had hoped, you're getting her to agree with you in some things and she is recommitting to the marriage.

Before I go, I'm happy for you. The road is long but you've made a mile wouldn't you say?

Freetobe,

Yes it was an imporant day. It was also a terribly painful day for the both of us. Getting a commitment to NC is a huge plus and being able to jointly agree to an MC plan is probably even bigger. But it was an emotionally draining day.
At one point I almost thought we were through.

I did not LB but she did. Contemplating the loss of OM was/is very painful to her and she took it out on me. The yelling, crying and insults. I was able to keep an emotional distance through most of it, which I why I did not yell back but it still hurt a lot.

But you are right, some very good things came out of this and I should be thankful for them. The next few weeks will be hard ones. If she holds to NC then she'll be going through withdrawal alone.

As van helsing said, "we must pass through the bitter waters to reach the sweet"

So now the question in my mind is, what does a recovery plan look like?

JGNC
(Quotes by JGNC in italics)
I feel for you about W treating with major love busting. I know that listening to it was hard on you.

"I was able to keep an emotional distance through most of it, which I why I did not yell back but it still hurt a lot."

Here's a pat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> on the back that you didn't return the yelling. Holding on while your loved one is ranting is a very diffcult thing to do.

But I'd like to ask, without you getting into what was said specifically, how come you felt hurt? Do you feel that she was right in her insult? Or was it a comment that was simply an untrue disresepctful judgement?

As it pertains to Recovery I thought it might be helpful to pass the URL along to you.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Also there is a page on MB site about making a Plan to resolve conflict and restore love to the marriage.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

Kudos to you. Just a word of comfort, trouble and problems don't last always. It is a cycle. A little good, A litle bad, A little good, A little bad, then sometimes a lot of bad, bad and a little good good-Never is quite in the order you want it in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh I like the quote from your post too-

As van helsing said, "we must pass through the bitter waters to reach the sweet"

SO true. SO true. Hey, we must remember to talk of other things too. What else have you been up to? Have you been snow biking again?

Well for me I fell through on the simulated rock climbing. I settled for something much easier. I've started a running program to increase my running speed. I know very easy way out, but it is still exercise.

Have a good one.

Well...so much for my little theory that perhaps less introspective people are the ones to have affairs! Glad to hear your views though...both of you...

jgnc: RECOVERY is tough...really really tough. Take deep breaths, remember all the lessons you've learned. Print out and post your motivational sayings...freetobe has heard all this before from me!

it's tough...please hang in there.

Specifically to your recent postings: One of the best pieces of advice I received was to share and discuss the OP sympathetically with WS. Perhaps you cannot fathom doing this?

First off, let me tell you that the anger I felt towards OW was immense...I'd thought she was a close "friend" of mine. Of course, it turns out she had lied and manipulated both of us for...who knows how long? My H and I wonder now -- how many years had she worked towards this A with him? Who knows what mind games she played with me too, ie. sympathizing about what a jerk he was, etc. (yeah, I know...bad ME for talking about my H with ANYONE else but him...boy we all learn new wonderful relationship skills here at MB, don't we! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Anyhow, I'm telling you this because I feel that if I could discuss OP calmly with my H, anyone can...but only if you choose to do so. It will take a huge amount of restraint on your part. What I did was to separate out HIM from HER. I put HER out of my mind completely. I thought about what she meant to HIM. How she was there for him when I was not (in his mind), how he felt scared and lost without me and turned to someone else (regardless that this was the wrong thing to do), and once I was calmly in the mode of being his friend...then we talked.

By doing this, he learned that I meant what I said. I was THERE for him, I was not going to LB even though the topic was painful, I understood his fears of surveillance forever...in short, I HEARD his feelings...his feelings were validated.

This allowed us to discuss options...calmly and rationally (POJA). For example, he quickly turned around from saying he would need to break it off with her in person (because that's the kind of guy he is...kind to women) to writing a N/C letter. He shared everything with me (eventually) although this took several weeks to really reach 100% -- by this I mean all details of A (extremely painful though they were) as well as volunteering to do verification stuff (like not erasing phone log, checking in regularly, never being alone or having unaccounted-for time).

The verification in particular had a few rough spots...I let him know how dreadfully painful it was for ME when he slipped up...but I always spoke of ME, not HIM or HER (although gradually as he realized how manipulative she had been, I could be more honest about how I truly felt about her).

I never blamed him, accused him, etc. I always found a way (take your time, think it through, write it down, consult here first) to remove LBs and ensure I was talking about my feelings.

Because I followed this approach faultlessly, it did not take long before he could tell when something was wrong (ie. a trigger), and he would ask me about it. So I no longer had to even raise the issue with him. In other words, because he was asking, he was interested. Therefore, he was not defensive, he was curious and concerned instead.

All of this stemmed from the excellent advice to "be his friend" through withdrawal. It is NOT an easy path. But if you can do it, talk about her feelings, SHARE her pain and loss and grieving...you will find the paybacks for you are there. You will have re-established your intimate bond.

Another way of thinking of it is that you break apart their secret world, and make a new bond with your S.

I'd be happy to talk about it further...let me know if you think I can help...awed

P.S. Here are some comments about something you said earlier:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />... explain how hurtful and disrespectful it was for her to desire to continue to contact him. <hr /></blockquote>It's fine to explain hurtful ...talk about YOU...it is NOT okay to explain disrespectful ...that's a DJ! And if you are DJ'ing her, you are directly sabotaging your marriage and all your positive efforts to save it!!!

MB principles really are that simple. You must stop those LBs. Period. Not easy to do.

If/when you screw up, apologize. For example, you could explain how when you are hurting, it is hard not to revert to your previous bad behaviour. Explain that you are ashamed of yourself for making judgments about her behaviour. That what she does is always her choice. Only then will you be able to convey your boundaries to her because she will open to actually hearing them.

Give respect if you expect to receive it.

This must be the hardest thing a BS has to do: give respect to someone who has hurt them immensely. But I am more and more convinced (read some of those old-timer posts) that this is the ONLY way to truly recover a marriage.

And I know from personal experience that it is also a path of personal spiritual growth. To truly absorb the principles of unconditional love frees you from so much pain and anguish, anger and resentment.

It's simple...but not easy.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The hardest part of the conversation that will ensue will be dealing with her LBs (AO and DJs)....Basically figuring out how to keep from being thrown in to the defensive w/out becoming offensive. <hr /></blockquote>You need to find a way to calmly tell her how you feel. She is not throwing you on the defensive, you are CHOOSING to go on the defensive. Accept all responsibility for your reactions and then you will be able to control them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I know all about resentment. There's not much that I can do about the resentment I already feel. The purpose of this letter is to help her take the steps necessary for that resentment to die away. <hr /></blockquote>There's actually a lot you can do about your resentment. In fact, I'd argue that you are the ONLY one who can do anything about it.

I will be absolutely blunt with you: if she continues seeing OM and eventually marries him, will you feel resentment? Do you want this woman to control your emotions forever? (I suspect not!)

So any and all work YOU do towards taking responsibility for your reactions will:
a) help your marriage
b) help your personal recovery
c) help you cope with further betrayal
d) help you heal if the M does not recover

It is a win-win situation, no matter what happens between the two of you...but learning to do so is not easy.

I am being blunt because I have become convinced over the past few months that unless a BS learns this basic lesson, their M is likely to fail...if not now, then later. How tragic...

You must learn that you are responsible for yourself ONLY, and she is responsible for herself ONLY. Whether or not she learns this, you need to.

What freetobe understood very quickly (from my perspective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) is that you cannot force the learning process on your S. Your S will either come along with you or not, as they choose. (Ironically, if you can accept this principle, there's a much better chance your S will come along with you!)

I hope you do not find these suggestions too harsh...I am making them only because I want to share some extremely hard-earned perspective from a BS who is undergoing a successful recovery, and is so tired of reading of unsuccessful attempts that are littered with LBs!

One more thing...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She understands why I need to check on her but I think she finds it humiliating.<hr /></blockquote>Well…it is humiliating isn't it? (I also found snooping around and catching my H in the "act" was humiliating. As was entering a crowded room not knowing who knows and who doesn't, which comment has hidden meanings and which doesn't...in fact, almost everything associated with an A is humiliating... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Anyhow, my point is validate her feelings on this one...it IS humiliating. Just simply validate. And inject humour whenever, wherever you can. ie. "hey darlin, it's 007 checking in today..." Or as freetobe suggested, make your life an open book too...make it part of your new marriage...sharing everything with each other, to learn TOGETHER to trust each other again...with everything.

You can find a way to turn pretty much every negative into a positive, a way to be closer, something to bring you together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Don't expect much from her in the short term though...keep your goals long term and you'll be on the right track.

In case I am seriously depressing you, just let me tell you again how fantastically my H has come around. If I am upset now because of some of the long-standing M issues we had (ie. prior to A) are rearing their ugly heads again, he goes off and thinks on his own without me asking him to do so. Then he comes back with a solution of what HE can do differently to make amends to me, to resolve the problems, to make our marriage different.

This is the same guy who refused to go to MC, refused to do R work, etc. etc. The turnaround is nothing short of miraculous! Because he wants this new M to work out.

I don't mean to guarantee that the same will come true with your S...I have no idea the depth of problems in your M prior to the A. However, ours were extremely serious. And the MB concepts have done exactly as promised.

But first I had to give and give and give and give and give...

awed18 are you still out here?

Hi freetobe,

Yes...in fact, I wrote to you on your thread at almost the same time you posted here!

And for poor, poor, beleaguered jgnc, who has to scroll down through my long long long posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...here's a quote I really like from one of my favorite posters (star*fish) here at MB...(edited to add emphasis in bold)...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...during crisis it is often hard to know what will or will not cause hard feelings. I have no doubt that your wife is feeling the strain and isolation imposed by her choices. That's a good thing....and encouraging. Try to remember this chere....it didn't take weeks to get where you are, and it won't take weeks to get out of it. This is a process....the same kind of slow....but steady process that hurt your marriage, and can now help it. It's often like watching grass grow it seems to improve so slowly...but don't look at the mountain you are trying to climb. Try and look at each step that you need to take. It's easy easy to feel overwhelmed and fall into despair....but when that happens...remember how many of us have renewed and rebuilt our marriages in the face of insurmountable odds....and find strength in that. <hr /></blockquote>

[ January 08, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]

There is a lot to respond to so I won't even try. I will just thank the both of you for your responses.

Awed, I am taking everything you said to heart, though it has taken me several readings to process it all.

The grief and pain that she feels right now is manifesting some of, if not the worst symptoms of depression that I have ever seen in her. What I see tells me that she needs anti-D's again. She refuses to go back to an IC and after last night I am scared. I can see us going back to the days when I wondered if that day was the day she would do something to hurt herself.

I need so much to believe that with time, friendship and kindness this will all come to pass. If not for that I probably would be leaving.

Freetobe, you asked why it hurt. I don't know if I can answer that without getting into specifics. Yes it is mostly DJs, delivered with rage.

I wish I could talk about other things, right now there is no room in my head for anything.

JGNC,

"What I see tells me that she needs anti-D's again. She refuses to go back to an IC and after last night I am scared."

I do believe in prayer. I will say a special prayer for you and you wife. Hope everything works out. Please give me an update when you can.

I can't think about this too long or I will spend the rest of the day unable to do anything else.

Since NC W has been very depressed and harboring a lot of anger towards me. Most of the time she has been depressed and then she will release her anger on me. I half expected this but not its intensity. All week I felt like an emotional punching bag. It is only when she sees how much pain I am in that she stops. Then we talk and things seem better until the next day.

Since yesteday evening things have been better. She is still sad. However, since our last talk we have been more supportive of each other.

Today, life is better(but it can change at any moment). We have lots keeping us busy and if we can get through it maybe she'll begin to see that she does not need OM as much as she thinks she does.

If I have time I may post some recolections of our conversations as I can use any insights.

J.

HI JGNC

How are you? I hope things have improved since your last post. It sounded as if you were having a hard time. I've been out for a while due to illness. I'm still not doing so well but I wanted to say hello. Hope to hear from you soon.

I'm sorry to hear you have been ill. I hope you get over it soon.

I haven't written any updates because the last 2 weeks have been such a roller coaster. Yesterday and today things have been good but I never know what I will find when I get home.

I'll try and write now.

Work has continued to be an issue and after the explosive events following the letter I wrote it became difficult to focus at work again. During this time if there was any silver lining it was that after she finished venting all of her anger we could talk, I listened to her talk about the OM. I suppose that I was so relieved to be able to talk to her that talking about OM was generally not very painful. I have been getting some strange interaction w/ my boss at work. I talked to my W about it and she was very supportive, for the first time she put her anger aside. However it also stopped most conversation about OM and our M. Her support lasted long enough for me to become cautiously optimistic. The second work issues were getting back on track it all started again.

She continues to suffer from depression, so we are back on the rollercoaster we were on before and during our first year of marriage except this time she is refusing to seek treatment. Her belief is that the only time she was not depressed was during the EA. Because of the letter I wrote her 2 weeks ago she began NC, now she blames me for her pain and depression. I understand why she feels that way but it is getting hard to take. I can talk about the A, OM and M without too many problems. It is another thing to take her rage and temper indefinately and to live fearing that the next thing I bring up may trigger a violent outburst of anger or depression.

That's where things are at right now. Today she is in a good mood, likely because she is busy, but when things are quiet tonight and she has time to think who knows what will be and even if things remain possible today I cannot say what morning will bring.

JGNC

Oh JGNC... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am so sorry to hear this...of course, all recoveries will have ups and downs...it is very common for a WS to feel suicidal...it is very common for a WS to feel anger and resentment during early days of recovery, when coming out of the fog...to blame you for taking away their emotional crutch (OP)...

But this is so intense. What does your counsellor have to say? I did not go back through your entire thread but I did see early on that you've seen a counsellor...are you still?

I worry for you buddy...will you be able to stay strong? Stay the course? Keep your spirits up? Stay motivated to keep trying, despite all the verbal abuse?

Can you get away from her more for the next little while? Do fun/engaging activities with others? Physical activities? Stress-relieving activities?

Are you seeing a counsellor?

I'm thinking of you...please write when you can...awed

what does my counsellor have to say?

Based on what I have talked about my IC says that she needs to be in treatment for various reasons.

I understand about withdrawal causing depression, this is more. Yes OM was a crutch. The thing is, I don't know if the void that OM filled can be filled by our M. It is a long and complicated history and I don't have time to go into it. But what both my IC and our MC (when I went alone) have said is that she may be blaming her individual problems on the M. They may be right. At times my W will echo this. Ofcourse my own shortcomings made it easy for her to blame the M.

I wish I had more time to go into this. I'm still here but staying strong is hard and this is making me question choices I made in the past. Recovery is hard enough without adding this on top of it. I can't really get away right now.

On the other hand since Mon, things have been ok, we'll see where things go. Just going day to day right now.

JGNC

I should have been clearer...absolutely I agree with you...this is WAY beyond a "normal" recovery reaction from a WS...that's why I am so concerned for your well-being.

I am sorry to hear you can't get some emotional space...please try to give yourself whatever positive breaks you can: an hour, a walk around the block, talking with friends about something lighthearted. It does work when trying to cope with a truly helpless situation. A friend used these coping techniques when she was embroiled (ie. over 2 years) with her violent, schizophrenic son. The value of short-term relief cannot be overestimated.

And of course, post/vent if it helps.

I'm very relieved to hear you have professional help with this situation. I'm keeping you in my thoughts...awed

HI JGNC and awed 18.
(Quotes by JGNC in italics)

"She continues to suffer from depression, so we are back on the rollercoaster we were on before and during our first year of marriage except this time she is refusing to seek treatment."

I am glad to read that you are hanging in there though it seems very difficult for you right now. I agree with a lot that awed posted concerning your recovery. I've been concerned about you as far as how are dealing what is going on with W. I have a question for you.
Does a lot of what you wife is feeling transfer to you? I guess I mean, if she has a hard time coping with what is happening between you do you take on the same attitude or disposition that she does?

I guess I'm trying to ask do you find yourself going in the same vein of having a negative reaction or see what you are accomplishing as a failure if she doesn't react as you would like. If she is on the rollercoaster, it doesn't mean that you have to go with her. I may be missing a point or two but I think it goes back to finding a way to detach from how WS reacts, not acting uncaring or indifferent but I mean finding a way seperate from W reactions and attitudes so that you can stay grounded and at peace while you go through this transition.

It seems that a part of your battle is trying to deal with your concerns and hers and you M as well as other aspects of your life. When if you were able to keep a seperation from things that cause you to loose focus then maybe it will help
you make more strides toward your goals. Tell me what you think.

well, what I am trying to accomplish feels hopeless because while I can make the changes I feel I need to, she is not getting the help she needs. Before we can recover she is going to have to recover.

for 2 maybe 3 years everytime her temper flared or she feel into a deep depression episode I learned to detach and to understand that it wasn't about me I was just the only target around. What I needed to do then was be there for her when she came out of it. It helped but it still hurts to see the person you care about the most suffer so much.

Depression not only affects the depressed but also those closest to the depressed person. Eventually one starts to walk on eggshells around the person. Or to just keep quiet about things one is unhappy. Even if the outbursts are infrequent. Where does this leave me, when she was depressed I had to take care of everything in the house because she was either while any my needs went unmet. When she wasn't depressed she was in an EA and I was wondering why she spent so little time with me (again unmet needs). Even then she was still unhappy in the M and openly considering her options for the future (leaving).

The truly sick part in all of this is that those moments when she is not depressed I get suspicious that he has made contact again. Thankfully none of those fears have been justified.

Now I am just venting and things are getting muddled in my head.

I suppose I should be thankful that today she isn't depressed but as my IC said, until there is a period of stability we will not be able to address our M.

Thanks for the support both of you. I do have some escapes, classical music and tolkien give me a respite for now. Friends are being a good support for the both of us though they don't know it.

an update,

I suppose this week has been a good one. We took a trip into the mts over the weekend and since then things have been ok btwn us. I have not seen her go into deep depression but it is still there. I have no angry outbursts and this is good. It is going to take some time before I can trust that there won't be anymore.

She had C w/ OM again last night, the first time in a week. A 30 sec conversation. When she told me... well it hurt. The feeling surprised me. I tried to explain my feelings w/out LB and also thanked her for her honesty. We did not talk much after that. She still misses OM everyday. I don't expect that to change any time soon. She says that if there was some magic way to make those feelings she has go away she would do it. However she won't go into IC.

I'm not sure when it will be safe to talk about M again.

One good thing, we did identify some Domestic Support issues that she thinks would make her feel more comfortable and secure in the home. I will try to get us to work through that and maybe something possitive will come from it.

Good to hear it! A bit of positive for you...and while talking about OM is painful, that is wonderful that she is opening up to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> A very good thing, although it may not feel that way at the time...

JGNC: feel under no obligation to respond to me, I know your time is limited. I am throwing out these thoughts just in case they help...not to badger you, not to be condescending...you have been dealing with these problems for a long time...sometimes a fresh eye can suggest a new angle...okay?

Why won't your W go into IC? Has she done this before? (ie. refused to get help) Is she in denial that anything is wrong with her?

I read an interesting site on intervention today and thought there could well be quite a number of situations here on this board that could benefit (like alcoholics). I hadn't thought of you until I just read your post but now it occurs to me...if you are always the "bad" guy, the one telling her something is wrong, etc. Perhaps broadening the group, others bringing pressure to bear, would help?

I've had a fair bit to do with mental health issues over the last 2 years, a couple of cases of schizophrenia in particular. (In one of the cases, intervention was one of the tactics we considered using until forcable removal to the hospital happened. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) Now I know that is not your W's problem but the thing I've found fascinating is how much denial of sickness goes on when dealing with mental illness. Even when violence erupts and the police/courts are involved, there is still such a level of denial.

And I have known other depressed people who just sink in and will not help themselves. In fact, get quite angry at the thought that there is anything wrong with them AND that anyone can help them (oxymoron).

Is your C helpful? Have they suggested any strategies for getting your W help? Have you tried the local mental health organization? On-line resources?

Hang in there...awed

Here is my W stance on IC and treatment. In August she came to the decision that she could not live her life depending on a medication to make her functional so she quit. At the time, though it cause a some stress, I was supportive. She does not feel like any counselor has ever really helped her in the past so she does not want to go into that again. Also because of the EA she feels that she will just recieve a lot of labels and judgements.

She also sometimes feels that she has been throuh so much counseling to deal with her past and with her temper that this is as good as it gets. She considers herself broken and to some degree unfixable.

In the past to talk to her about counseling was to somehow imply that there was something wrong with her, this would destroy her self esteem. This really isn't the case anymore though.

There is a silver lining to all of this. That is that she thinks that she cannot go back to work without therapy & meds. The stress would be too much for her to deal with. If she goes back to school I will press her to go back as well for the same reason.

I can understand how she feels, it can be hard to separate "I need help" from the self destructive "There is something wrong with me" especially for a depressed person.

I don't know what allies I have that could help her come to see that she needs to go into therapy again. Especially since right now the depression is OM related. Even if she did then there is the problem of her not being completely honest w/ a therapist.

So until she can see that she needs this and realizes that she will need to do work and be honest to make progress I'm just waiting and being as supportive as I can.

well...you are a gem! And she is very very very lucky to have you as an H...and if you are feeling down, you just come here so we can keep on telling you how well you are doing!

You are a good person JGNC...all my best to you...awed

update,

Saturday was a pretty bad day, I let a lot of negative feelings get the best of me. For the first time though she began to talk to me about ENs. Specifically, financial support. Or rather financial support in the future. I'll try to organize my thoughts on that later. I have other things on my mind, specifically contact.

here we go again it seems. Tonight I just found out she has been in contact again. Expressing how NC is not her idea and that she loves him. Also trying to exchange pictures. Now she is being more deceptive, encouraging him to use an new e.mail account so that the filter will not catch it.

I'm not really sure what to do at this moment. I will have to confront her yet again and start that wretched process all over again.

Hi JGNC and awed18

Please forgive my inconsistent replies.

J, I was excited to read about the strides you and W are making. Oh a trip in the mtns sounds heavenly though cold (I'm a sunny southern girl).

I can see how W's setback in making contact is a downer. The positive of it is that perhaps she has began to understand even if only for a short while that she is able to handle being without him (OM) and appreciate just being with you for a time.

I guess in all of this ultimately she still has to make a choice to go the distance or to relapse. For you though you are doing your best and hanging in there, facing great obstacles, this is hurtful but remember though you put your best foot forward still she has to come to some realizations for herself.

So don't beat yourself up or kick yourself because this is a part of the possibilities of Plan A. How are you handling it? How do you feel or what do you think about the setback? Have the two of you talked about her making ammends for setbacks? I know you talked about agreeing to resume MC if certain conditions weren't met. Is this a possibility for you now?
Also are you considering the possibility of Plan B? As you see it do you have any insight on what might have brought on setback, the depression she been going through ot anything else?

Have a good one.

Mountains were very nice, though I'm fairly certain we will not be living out our lives here, I'm grateful for the time we have here. I was a southern guy too, those summers were insane, Like it here much more even w/ the cold.

The thing is I don't think that she was able to be w/out OM at all. There was NC for all of 2 weeks and 1 day. During that entire time she was depressed and missing him like crazy. I think the only reason she told me about the attempt at contact was that she suspected I had seen something on her computer. She came clean when I said nothing. Now she is trying to cover her tracks. I think the lesson she learned is that she is miserable unless without him. I also think that she implemented NC because of my feelings and because she felt watched not because she thought it was necessary for recovery. I know that she was hoping that I would allow her to keep OM as a friend. She made the choice she felt she had too not the one she wanted to make. I did not force her to stop contact but I did tell her what I needed from her. I suppose out of guilt she did it.

So here we are now. I think this setback happened because she did freely choose NC and did not have the kind of support she needed to deal w/ the depression that came w/ withdrawal. I don't know if I didn't do enough or if because of depression there was not much I could do. I wish she had someone to talk to but she has no friends locally and has let all of her old friendships die off. I think she needs to talk to someone who has been where she is now. There is no one she truly trusts including counselors.

I guess I'm being pessimistic.

My IC asked me what it would take for me to end M. I did not really have an answer but I have thought about it. I have been thinking about Plan B but I don't know if I have done a good enough plan A. Secondly because of depression I dread the idea of Plan B.

For now things are quiet and even upbeat between us. I have not comfronted her on C yet. it seems that as long as I don't bring up our M things are fine. And if we talk about the current political campaign things can be down right cheerful. Sometimes I think thats the one thing we have going for us and keeping us together.

Hiya,

As I was reading through your post, I started posing a question to you...then I read further and find it's the same one posed by your IC!

Well...not exactly...I don't think you should even consider leaving the M at this point...but you should be thinking of Plan B...just THINK about it...think about how you feel, how it could be done, what the logistics would be...tackle this with the thinking part of your brain...

You are sounding extremely worn out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Cheerful conversation is fine but at some point you need a break from the emotional battering you are taking, whether or not it is openly discussed with your W.

Remember: to be effective, you need to get to Plan B before the love drains out of you to such a point that you decide the end the M...this happens to lots of people...very fast. One day, wake up, decide to end the M...no Plan B, just D.

Give your M one more chance before that happens...consider Plan B. She might still wake up.

I'm going to be very blunt about one other issue: has your IC talked to you about suicide? (Your W's, not yours) Many many many WS feel suicidal...your W is already depressed...she has NO emotional support other than you and OM.

From where I am standing, your W is engaged in a heck of a lot of unhealthy behaviour which she refuses to seek help for. At some point, you need to let her reap the full extent of these choices, regardless of her illness.

Tough love is just that...if it comes down to your survival or your W's, who comes first?

As redhat would say, that's my 2 cents.

All the best...awed

First Freetobe, if you are still sick, get well soon.

now..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Well...not exactly...I don't think you should even consider leaving the M at this point...but you should be thinking of Plan B...just THINK about it...think about how you feel, how it could be done, what the logistics would be...tackle this with the thinking part of your brain...
<hr /></blockquote>I have started thinking about Plan B. There are two things that gnaw at me. First, I don’t think I have done a good enough Plan A, I never exposed the EA nor have I given myself enough time to really change enough for her to see it. Second, because of the strong likelihood of depression I fear what Plan B may do to her, especially w/ no support or treatment.
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
You are sounding extremely worn out... Cheerful conversation is fine but at some point you need a break from the emotional battering you are taking, whether or not it is openly discussed with your W.
<hr /></blockquote>Depressed is probably a better description. Depressed and angry. I am hurt by her contact w/ OM, angered by the deception, resentful of having to put all of the effort into domestics and just plain tired of having to keep my emotions in check or avoid certain topics because of her depression while she can LB all she wants.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Remember: to be effective, you need to get to Plan B before the love drains out of you to such a point that you decide the end the M...this happens to lots of people...very fast. One day, wake up, decide to end the M...no Plan B, just D.
<hr /></blockquote>I think I’m heading there. Last night was horrible. I was depressed and did not want to talk to her. Just looking at her made me feel worse and her attempts to console just made me angry. Prayer was the only thing that helped me get to sleep. Today having work in front of me is helping as well as having people to talk to about other things. But I don’t want to see her or talk to her. I'm sure during this time I've been LBing. The only communication we have had was when I told her I would be having lunch by myself today. I keep on trying to remind myself that I love this woman, I don’t hate her, I hate some of the actions and choices she has made but I do not hate her. The only feeling I have is anger. She’s been thinking about leaving for her own selfish reasons anyway.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Give your M one more chance before that happens...consider Plan B. She might still wake up.

I'm going to be very blunt about one other issue: has your IC talked to you about suicide? (Your W's, not yours) Many many many WS feel suicidal...your W is already depressed...she has NO emotional support other than you and OM.

From where I am standing, your W is engaged in a heck of a lot of unhealthy behaviour which she refuses to seek help for. At some point, you need to let her reap the full extent of these choices, regardless of her illness.

Tough love is just that...if it comes down to your survival or your W's, who comes first?
<hr /></blockquote>We talked about suicide briefly, I did not consider it a threat then because we had NC and I had no reason to think that at least I would not be there.

When I sober up, I put her survival first. If I went into Plan B I feel I would have to do everything I could first to make sure she had support of friends and family to deal with depression and encourage her to go into treatment and make the right choices. She won’t engage others, maybe I can get others to engage her. First I need to find the strength to stay in Plan A.

I wish I'd heard you say that YOU come first! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You can't solve her problems jgnc...I'm sure your counsellor has told you that. She is refusing reasonable options for help...how is that your fault? Of your making?

If not, then why should you reap all the negative consequences? Loss of personal well-being, years off your life from the stress, etc.

Actually, I think you've been doing a pretty good Plan A but I'm not in your shoes so don't know the details. You've seemed to me to be supportive, trying to meet her needs, honestly communicating your hurt, etc. She refuses to get counselling, insists she needs to depend on OM...

This is a classic Plan B situation.

Can you afford counselling with the Harleys? With Cerri? Professional advice would be helpful I suspect. I know they've dealt with folks in depression before and the point is, they can tailor the approach to suit YOU and your specific situation.

Keep thinking of Plan B...as an oasis...that you deserve...your W is selfish, intent on dragging you down with her...she's not a bad person, just caught in her own web of fantasy...many depressed people have A's, she's not that unusual in that respect...I don't know how many have your W's history with depression though...

Don't beat yourself up...you've done what you can...and remember, the next phase is necessary because the first part has not been enough to separate the WS from the OP...that has nothing to do with YOU...it is the choice made by the WS.

Hang in there...awed

I know my answer wasn't the "right" one. I know I cannot solve her problems. I am also not taking the blame for her actions.

Why should I bear the consequences... I would like to say compassion for someone that has suffered most of her life. Maybe its a bit more selfish, wanting to be sure I did all I could. Regardless there comes a point where compassion just enables her "habits".

It's been hard meeting ENs because I don't think she knows what they are. This is a woman that can always tell you what she doesn't want but never what she does want. I never went with the EN questionaire because it would have gone unanswered (is that a DJ?). I've done my best to not LB and be there to listen to her.

I have a hard time thinking of Plan B as an oasis. Leaving my own home for an unspecified amount of time... fun. Or what sending her to her mothers house, cruel and practically throwing her at OM. Though maybe that's what it needs to be to shatter the dependence/fantasy. I can already hear the accusations of manipulation.

I'm thinking of the following right now:
expose depression to friends and her family and ask for help.
Confront her on contact again and try to survive the tempest that will ensue.
Expose affair to friends I can trust and OMW.
Confront OM.
Stay in Plan A until..

If any more contact after that expose A to all and Plan B.

Please pray she comes out of it before it comes to that. Hopeless as it seems right now.

I know you are compassionate...and you love your W! It just seems from this vantage point that you've done what you can. If she was depressed only...but this lashing out at you and adoration of OM...that is the Plan B part of the equation...

Please don't lose hope! Perhaps that is what I would like to convey to you most...that your hope lies within YOU, not your W or the recovery of your M. You are the strong one...nurture yourself for a change because you need it, your marriage needs it.

I read an analogy yesterday that I thought was a good one: this process is like being in a dark tunnel going around curves...you can't see the light at the end because of those curves...you need to trust that eventually the tunnel will end...

I think you are at a dark curve now...trust in yourself.

I am hoping for the best for both you and your W...awed

freetobe ...if you are lurking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I too hope you are feeling better! awed

I'm not doing anything until my IC session on 2/3

I did confront her on contact. It was pretty much as expected and for a time made me wonder if not going into Plan B was diminishing our chances for recovery, if anything because of her anger.
She feels forced into NC and believes that to be cruel. She seems to respect.. well no.. understand that I need NC but wants to let it run its course. Wether she makes a choice before Plan B becomes necessary to me is up to her. Right now she is too angry, what she said today makes me think that she is trying to punish me by denying me opportunities to fulfill ENs.

Because she WAS receptive to the EN questionaire I have a bit of hope that Plan A can work. But I am putting a time frame on it. 3/1 at the latest.

I am no longer looking for evidence on C, I will assume it continues until she tells me otherwise and agrees that I can verify until I am satisfied that she is truthful about NC.

I am working on two things now, plan B logistics and a recovery plan as I see it. It sounds strange to be working on 2 completely divergent paths. The recovery plan I think is mainly for me, so that I can see that there is a path leading to reconciling the marriage if we choose to walk it. I suppose Plan B is for me as well to understand that there is a path leading to my own recovery if she does not.

That is where thing are at now. It has been a strange and horribly confused week.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Expose affair to friends I can trust and OMW. <hr /></blockquote>I missed this before...and it alters what I said about doing a good Plan A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...I was commenting specifically on the rest of Plan A!

Why haven't you exposed the A? Are there family to expose it to as well as friends? I think you mentioned that your W is distanced (completely removed?) from others...are there any that would still have impact with her?

And I did not realize OM was married...why haven't you exposed the A to his wife?

Let me ask another critical question: your W is lashing out a lot (albeit having pleasant interactions at other times)...could things be worse between you? Would exposure make things significantly worse in reality?

You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...and for a time made me wonder if not going into Plan B was diminishing our chances for recovery, if anything because of her anger.
She feels forced into NC and believes that to be cruel. <hr /></blockquote>I agree...there is a good chance that remaining in Plan A will not work in your favour precisely because she is choosing to continue contact with OM and make you the bad guy. She needs a dose of reality for her choices (just as you need protection for your love for her). Continued long-term support enables the A, especially without exposure.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am no longer looking for evidence on C, I will assume it continues until she tells me otherwise and agrees that I can verify until I am satisfied that she is truthful about NC.
<hr /></blockquote>That sounds eminently sensible actually.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am working on two things now, plan B logistics and a recovery plan as I see it. It sounds strange to be working on 2 completely divergent paths. The recovery plan I think is mainly for me, so that I can see that there is a path leading to reconciling the marriage if we choose to walk it. I suppose Plan B is for me as well to understand that there is a path leading to my own recovery if she does not.
<hr /></blockquote>Not strange at all! Very reassuring actually. I am extremely pleased you are seriously considering Plan B. And as Just J points out in your other thread, part of that (an important part) is the letter you write...basically a love letter setting out the conditions of recovery. So you see, the paths are not at all divergent!

And please make sure to post your letter when it is ready...I've seen people do an awesome job of editing, helping take out all LBs, all unnecessary info (that won't get through to a WS anyhow), ensure the conditions for recovery are clear, etc. Again: "disinterested" eyes (ie. neutral, 3rd party eyes) are fabulous...use the resources available here to max benefit!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It has been a strange and horribly confused week. <hr /></blockquote>...and I hope I am not adding to that equation. A little bit of tough love here at MB too I guess...people not telling you what you necessarily want to hear but how it looks to someone not emotionally engaged in the situation...

BTW: you may want to clarify to others that your W is dealing with significant depression unrelated to the A. That might help them understand some of your logistical concerns for and about her.

Also, I am sure there are others who have had depressed WS (actually I believe Ice Princess is one of them), and they may be able to give you some significant support for what you are going through...will go through. Seek them out jgnc...

Take care of yourself...I am thinking of you a lot these days...awed

Ok, I'm sure the answer to the exposure thing is somewhere in the thread. I have not exposed the affair to family (hers or mine) because I do not trust them to help. Her family history is not a good one. If they began to tell her what she was doing was wrong etc she is more likely to shut them out completely. I say this not out of speculation. Long before D-day and my being here, we had talked about separation she felt that if she did that, her family only judge her and she would have to shut them out of her life. As far as my family goes, in the past when we dated, my family was fairly destructive to our relationship. She has no real ralationship with any of them. She likes my mom but views everyone else with suspicion. I don't share much personal information with them anyway. Also I do not trust my father much at all. To go to my family would be causing myself unecessary drama.

Exposing the EA to friends will not help much other than to build support for myself. She has no close friends that she shares her thoughts with or that have influence in her life.

Exposing to OW... I think this comes to fearing the short term consequences. I know I have an obligation to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Let me ask another critical question: your W is lashing out a lot (albeit having pleasant interactions at other times)... could things be worse between you? Would exposure make things significantly worse in reality?
<hr /></blockquote>That is the crux of it really. At the time I made the decision to not expose I felt like there was nothing to gain and everything to loose. Now I am questioning all of my early decissions. Intentional or not her behavior towards me has been abusive. Even she knows this and has openly wondered why I stayed with her.

Since then, 2 friends know but they don't get involved and since she has no individual relationship with them there is not much they could do anyway.

As you can probably guess she is a very lonely person and it makes giving up OM that much harder.

She seems to believe that the relationship w/ OM will die off eventually. Even if it did I don't see what she could do at that point to make ammends to me.

When and if I make the decision to go into plan B I will use every resource available here.

Update

Slowly I have been exposing the EA to friends, it turns out I have better friends than I thought. Having their prayers and support is helping me enough that I now feel I can stay in Plan A for a little while longer.

W has been quite depressed for a week and it started to get bad 2 days ago. Keeping busy and a number of social engagements has really helped.
The depression is due to withdrawal, Although I said I would not look anymore I had to and verified this. If she would only make it through withdrawal this time. She won't reach out to anyone though any one of our friends would listen to her w/out judgement.

Last night while we were talking about an acquaintance of ours the concept of therapy came into a conversation. Eventually she volunteered her own position. She knows that therapy for depression will not work if she does not want it to so really any healing will have come from her. Because the desire to change has to come from her she sees no point in seeing a therapist. I told her that even though change has to come from within it can be too hard to go it alone and gave myself as an example. I would not be surviving if it were not for the support I have found.

I hope that the small changes I am seeing are real.

On my end I finally decided that I must talk to OMW. My plan is to print the evidence I have and put it in the mail. I also think I should talk to OM and tell him to not try and contact my W and tell him to confess to his W before the package arrives.

Well that's all. Feeling OK today. I hope it lasts.

J.

Good to hear it! I think that is a positive posting...little baby steps right? And the news about your friends is so terrific...I am sure you've gathered that I have been very concerned for YOUR welfare.

Good plan about the exposure. I agree with you that it is time.

Also, I thought today as I read through Suzet's most recent posting...have you read any of her stuff? She had what I consider to be a mild A...never physical...I don't even think a lot of contact in real life...but she certainly went through withdrawal big time and documented her struggles well...

My thinking was that reading it might help you gain strength in your plan...you know...to weather the inevitable storm...

Again...you sound better, more...steady somehow...all the best to you...awed

Hi JGNC

(Quotes from JGNC in italics)

Thank you for the well wish. I am under some meds now that are helping me feel much better. So I'll be posting more as I can.

How are you? Seems that IC is going well. From what I've read I see there have been some difficult times but it seems that things are looking up some.

I am happy also to hear about exposure.
Gosh, I had thought that you were set against talking to friends, but I am glad that you decided to take this step.

She won't reach out to anyone though any one of our friends would listen to her w/out judgement.

Does she trust or like more one of your friends whom you've confided in that can maybe put themselves out there as an ear to listen to her if she wants to talk?

"I also think I should talk to OM and tell him to not try and contact my W and tell him to confess to his W before the package arrives."

Do you think he will heed your warning? Have you and he communicated before?

I'm wishing you the best on the new steps you are taking. Just wishing you the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Awed18, thanks for the reference. There are so many resources available here that I wish my W would resource, but that's neither here nor there. She will when she does.

Freetobe, glad to see you are doing better, I hope that you get better this soon.

Things are looking up today. I just need to get my mind settled and focused now.
IC is going well. The sessions help me keep perspective, not to elated when things are good or too down when they are bad. Last 2 weeks have been bad but I am starting to see a small change.

I have not asked any of them to reach out to her, I don't know how she would react. She has real trust issues stemming from early adolesence. I think the most I can do is encourage her to reach out to them.

OM and I have spoken in the past when they worked together, years ago. I don't know if he would heed the warning. I am doing it mostly as a courtesy to OMW. I would have prefered for my WW to confess and want a recovery than me having to find out and negotiating for a recovery.

Update,

So in the past DJs were a big problem of mine, often others would hurt her or critize her and I would more than likely see their side of it than hers or simply imply that she was being overly sensitive. It lead her to feel like I did not have any loyalty to her. With good reason. So I'm no angel, but I have learned.

Today, we were having a discussion about my SIL whom she does not like. This time I validated how she felt and even agreed with her instead of my former behavior. Later in the day I saw her for lunch. A song came on in the restaurant that reminded her about OM and so we started to talk about him. We got to talking about loyalty and she said that one of the things she never liked about him is that he did not show loyalty to her, ie. Not willing to protect her feelings from the disrespect of others, specifically another possible OW of his. Then she tells me that she feels that loyalty from me citing our earlier conversation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We got to talking about the fantasy of the A. It was all very possitive. She sees that I am making changes to address her unhappiness in the M as it was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe I am reading to much into this but I have noticed she was speaking of him in past tense for the first time.

Later in the day I was looking over my "evidence" file that I will be sending to OMW, specifically the very first thing I discovered. For the first time it did not make me angry to read it. Rather I saw a lonely vulnerable person looking for someone to connect to, to support her and understand her, knowing full well that it was all a fantasy that would not last.

I pray that NC holds. We talked about her depression and some of the progress she has been making dealing with it on her own. I still think a therapist will help. It is still a comfort to know that she is aware of the problem and is trying to help herself.

That's all. It was a good day.

JGNC

PS. Awed if you read this, I say in another thread that you worked in the media before? Out of curiousity what did you do? Media is my W passion so I've developed quite an interest in it as well. She's a former media person, hopefully going into grad school.

(Quotes from JGNC in italics)

"This time I validated how she felt and even agreed with her instead of my former behavior. "

Hats off to you JGNC. Being able to recognize your previous wrong, then show her a new part of you sounds like major progress. While putting the bad guy (OM) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> in the light, you proably gave yourself a point and made a love bank deposit or two. And I'm sure you feel a lot stronger too.

Aside from what you've done for yourself reading your post you've had helped me too. Now that the A is over with my H and we were working toward recovery I have fallen into a setback.

Things were going ok and progressing to some degree but all of the past has come to haunt me, if you will. I have found it diffcult to be empathetic. Your post gives a perfect example of how to be just that. I realize why but I'm not sure how to cope yet though I have been taking time to think it over.

Well so much about my status, I'm just glad to hear your good news. Maybe I'll post more later.

Freetobe,

If you need to, please post more. You are right, it is diffficult to be empathic, this weekend I have been struggling with it. As usual my wife has been feeling very lonely and would not talk to me about it, because she does not want to hurt my feelings w/ details of the A. She said that she wished I could be her friend like we were before we ever dated. Well, I want to be her best friend again so I asked her to take a chance and talk about whatever she had too. What has followed has been very painful for me to hear but also helpful for her to not feel so alone.

It's hard to be empathic when you are trying to understand a situation that caused you so much pain. I don't know if this is right or not but I think I am going to need something major from my W to ever get over this.

I was wondering about the part where you say that you will need something major from your wife. Would you like to share more about that or what you mean?

I do hear you when it comes down to listening to things that are hurtful especially when you are the one that has been hurt. For me I've been trying to get my H to open up more. But I realize that in order for me to do this I need to be a friend more.

However I am finding it diffcult to be a friend and lover and W and all the other things at the same time. I ran this by awed and I'll share it with you also.

My H and I never had the chance to have the typical "fall in love situation". We tried a relationship at first and I messed up the first time. Then we decided to try again. He messed up this time and even with greater inconsideration than I had before.

As a result we stayed with this relationship that has been having problems since its beginning. We advanced to engagement and marriage without having cultivated a relationship. You, see the A has been on for as long as the R has been on (though it ended 11/03).

So times when he treatd me shabby and disrespectfully I tolerated it without truly knowing about the A until I came to MB later this year. I wanted to preserve this R for all the wrong reasons. When I should've let my H go because he wasn't worth dating at the tiem I hung in there with him.

I wanted us to be happy together but I never made boundaries and I never required him to do what he needed to to show me that he wanted this. So consequentially I am dealing with stubborn ways of him not wanting to change. Though he is great in some things he is withholding in others. I have tried to talk it over with him but talk is like in one ear and out the other or he becomes really agitated.

So now that the A is over, which happened in 11/03 I have been faced with trying to help him understand important concepts which I feel are difficult for him to understand because he is not motivated to and I am not motivated to tolerate his lack of cooperation.

Hindsight is 20/20. But hey I brought this on myself. Now is figuring out where to take this from here. Well this is my story for the time. If you have na opinion you'd like to share please don't hesitate.

Deleted post, completely unproductive rant.

[ February 11, 2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: jgnc ]

I suppose I'm just frustrated. I wish I could see a sign of real commitment but that's just rushing things and there is nothing I can do about it. baby steps.

I read your post and your post to starfish. The question I would ask you now is are your feelings based on reality? You sound very frustrated. To go through Plan A and into recovery you had to give a lot and it can be really frustrating when you don't see the return you would like. I'm living that right now like you wouldn't believe.
Remember the thread about a BS also going through a kind of fog.

When you are not discussing M or MB principles how is your relationship? Are there good moments from the past that you can build on? If with time he came around do you think that you could be happy living the rest of your life w/ your H?
Hey may not be receptive to making changes but does he love you and treat you like he loves you?
Does he know how drained you feel or helped you deal w/ the aftermath of the A?

Eventually he will have to come around or he will loose you one way or another. That's my opinion. But that's his part to decide. On your side, do you really believe the reason you married him was to pull him away from OW?

I would never encourage someone to stay in a bad and hopeless situation, I guess I'm just saying, be sure. I don't know if you have gone through IC or not but you may want to consider. If you made a decision in while your mind was clouded w/ the A then you do have options.

Pls take care, I know I posed a lot of questions, don't feel obligated to answer them.

Hi JGNC.
(quotes by JGNC in italics)

I'm good. I know it is frustrating trying to be sure that W is sincere in recovery. I hope with you as well that she is trying this time.

I read your post last night. I wrote a rough draft post but wanted to think it through more so I delayed my post back.

Hi awed also, miss hearing from you.

Well your questions are good ones, thought provoking.

"The question I would ask you now is are your feelings based on reality?"

I'm not quite sure that I understant this question. I do feel that my feelings are based in reality. Having a desire for my S to make changes that can actually build a R in this M is to me very realistic.

Is it realistic to want to go back to the beginning and make a "head over heels, fall in love" experience may be questionable as far as being realistic. I mean we are alredy in the M so how can we go back to the beginning?

I don't expect that we can and that isn't exactly what I'm looking for. My H promised me before I took him back after the final episode that he would work as hard at this R as I had. That tells me that he understood that I was having a difficult time hanging in there with him and his OW and his foolishness and that I must've loved him if I did.

That being said, to me that meant that he now needs to hang in there with me and change his way of being. I realize that we have 2 different meanings when it comes down to what actutally means working hard at a R. Perhaps it would've benefited me to expain this and allow him to show me bfore I took him back.

Well now I'm in it with him and I feel that "working hard at it" only means as he would like. It means making only the changes that he has decided that he would like to make. He is very stubborn when it comes to this type of thing. I don't know if it has to do with him comprehending what I mean or if he is just content to do want he wants to. Well since he is quiet and doens't ask questions how do I know he is listning or just blowing me off? (In the past this was also a problem between us.)

When I speak to him about making changes in a way that I feel will help to strengthen our relations he seems to disregard what I say. I think it stays with him for that moment then it is lost. So as I've tried to perservere with him I feel that it is in vain. To me, it is like trying to communicate with an unwilling party.

Outside of discussing MB we get along well as, like friends, but the romance isn't there. In this way we don't put any requirements on each other. That is just fine with me. But that has its drawbacks. That means to me that you don't necessarily get all of the priviledges or niceties of a person who is intimate and romantic (catch my drift). Otherwise it is difficult (for me) to be romantic and intimate with someone who I can't make any requirements of or get any expectations from that doens't listen to or value what I say. and to take it a step further people don't normally stay friends with people that they feel don't show friendship by taking them seriously.

Remember what you said about how you mentioned when your W was offended by something someone else said and how you would take the side of her opponent. But the other day you listened to her, you showed her you took how she felt seriously.

Well I feel that in this regard my S doesn't take me seriously. When I tell him how I feel and he continues in the same vein as if I hadn't said a word it makes me wonder what I mean to him. This makes me feel that he doesn't love me or he doesn't enough to sacrifice making change.

So that is why I feel that perhaps we both need to learn about being in love with a person moreso than "falling in love". Harley says that love is the motivation to stay in a M right? If there is already a love deficit there has to be a deposit come in there somewhere.

So JGNC I guess we are now at the point where I feel that we both need to understand what the other wants and make negotiations or somehting like this. But how can you when I talk to him and he doesn't interact but is quiet? Especially when he's told me that he has found in life it is better to be quiet and play in the middle to keep people off your back. Middle means mediocre to me. It means one isn't willing to try harder and that doens't work well for me.

Maybe I need to change my approach. I'm still thinking the matter over. Well sorry to drown you in so much detail. Some of it is venting and I really don't mind if you don't read it all. I think it helps me to think at the same time.

Freetobe,

I did not mean to question if your expectations were realistic. When I read your post it sounded to me that you were very down and questioning your M. So I guess it was a step back and get the big picture kinda recommendation. Feel free to ignore it if that's not the case.

I am coming to see that ending the A is the easy part.

I do not think that your expectations are unrealistic. That's why we are here, because we believe it can be better. One of the things MB strives to achieve is sustained romantic love.
You don't want to be just your spouses friend. You want to be much more than that and it is realistic to want that.

Boundaries and expectations are not bad things. You say that you are ok w/ not having requirements of each other. but it has its drawbacks. One of those drawbacks will inevitably be resentment. Setting boundaries is a hard thing to do. Somehow it implies setting an ultimatum. Thats not what it is. What I'm beginning to see is that it means that when a boundary is crossed it will be addressed, it will be addressed respectfully and lovingly but it will be addressed.

Some of what you say about your H reminds me of complaints my W has had about me. It seems like he is comfortable w/ the status quo and is the type of person that likes to avoid conflict whenever possible. His needs are being met so his personality tells him that everything is just fine.

That kind of personality is hard to deal with. I know my W suffered a lot because of it. Sometimes we get the mistaken impression that when we go married we achieved the prize and we don't have to try anymore. Which is a bloody laugh. Marriage is work and requires upkeep. That doesn't mean it is should be a chore, rather something you enjoy working on.

How are your LBs when you talk to him about what you need? I'm asking because my W's LBs made it very difficult to empathize w/ how she felt.

There's a lot of comments floating around in my head that don't seem to want to make to the keyboard so I'll stop.

Don't worry about dumping too much detail here.
Anyways I really recommend seeing a MC. If he won't go, do it by yourself first. It's good to get support here and lots of folks give great advice (awed) but theres a different dynamic when you can actually talk to someone.

Take care,

JGNC

maybe later I'll post an update.

Gosh JGNC you said a lot in that post that actually hit my feelings on the nail.

I'm glad that you clarified what you meant about my feelings being based in reality. Because actually I did need to do an assessment, to step back and see that my M at the current point isn't the most horrible thing in the world. I think sometimes I tend to feel that way. Sometimes I feel like a mute who's talking but noone is lsitening. Sounds a little weird? I mean my mouth is moving and I hear the words coming out, but it is taken like a mumble or just noise.

My S may feel that it is ok for him not to speak up but for me it makes me feel that what I'm saying is not being validated. Oh but let someone say something that either offends him
(about him)or he make a point that I listen to but not reply to and he sits there forever going back over his point seeking approval from me. Like a big baby.

But when it is serious conversation, I might as well be talking to the wind. "Hello O' great wind of the North, South, East and West!" is what I might as well say when I'm talking to him.

I have considered going to a free MC that I've heard about. Maybe it will help me. But I want to go to one that supports concepts addressed here.

You made a valid point here:
"Setting boundaries is a hard thing to do. Somehow it implies setting an ultimatum. Thats not what it is. What I'm beginning to see is that it means that when a boundary is crossed it will be addressed, it will be addressed respectfully and lovingly but it will be addressed. "

I will admit I have a problem setting boundaries and then allowing my S to decided if he will follow or not. Most of the time I feel that he has to or that is it. I guess I do because to me that boundaries are important and also I have to abide by them as well.

It is difficult to do it lovingly when I already know that I'm not being heard. And also when my S will not at least acknowledge what I say. And I do ask him to tell me if he disagrees then also tell me if he understands or if he has something different to share.

Awed18 mentioned to me to try to do this in fun, right? That is the hard part. Especially when exactly as you picked up, I know he is trying to avoid conflict. So that makes me apprehensive about addressing anything.

And yes he does feel as long as his needs are met everything is ok. So I figure that I will not meet them so that perhaps my actions will say "red" flag, "everything isn't ok. We're going under here. Need some attention from ya." Then the only thing he sees to try next at getting around the the red flag without having to do anything else.

My Lb's were ok at first. I started talking things over with him but it seemed to only be that I could do it when something happened surrounding the A. Like if an issue about NC came up. Trying to discuss it outside of that was difficult. I could tell that he was shutting down when I tried to talk with him about it in just conversation. I think that is because at that time he was upset still about me exposing it to OW H and also he still had tender feelings about it.

Now, because I feel that I can't make any expectations of him to discuss the matter my feelings are as you already said starting to turn into resentment. And also when I see him act in ways that remind me of how he behaved when he was in the A. I guess it has been fermenting for some time. But what does one do? What did it take for you to turn around? What caused you to change your mind? I know the A might be a part of it but what really got through to you?

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it.

Update:

My H and I had a little talk last night. I think he is becoming somewhat interested in what is going on with me and my concerns. I am putting out my first letter since we've been M to address what I feel and some of my concerns to H. I am trying to spoon feed him.

I don't know why I hadn't thought to write before. Anywho, as usual I am left to appeasing the voice of redo in my head that requires me to repeatedly rewrite this letter making sure it contains no more and no less than I think is best to get accross my point, interest him and be as brief as possible all at the same time. Well wish me luck.

hi guys...just wanted to pop in here real fast and say HI!!!

I wrote you both a long post on Friday that vanished into the ether just before I posted it...I’d written a long post because I have a book to recommend to you...and I quoted from it -- typed out various passages to give you some idea of why I was so excited about it, and the relevance I think people here can get from it, etc.

Anyhow...have no time now so very very short post instead...

freetobe: book is called How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together by Susan Page. Definitely check it out! I think you will find an absolute wealth of info there, including step by step diagnostic of relationship...

I can't wait to hear what you think actually...see if you have the kind of epiphany that I did...

jgnc: don’t know if you'll find it as relevant...it's more for the BS during recovery (after all, you already have Plans A & B to follow!) but I thought you might be interested in having a read nonetheless. Maybe browse in a bookstore...

This book goes hand-in-glove with MB concepts but I think takes it further...very practical, uses exercises, gives tools/techniques, etc.

One specific tool is the Emergency Resentment Abatement Procedure (ERAP) to deal with problems/fights/bad feelings. Very very good...would be good for all MBers to follow actually, no matter what plan they're in.

Anyhow...keeping it short!

It's an awesome book...let me know if you want to hear more...I'll check back in later this week and really read through your posts...so far I’ve just skimmed but am thrilled that you are having such good discussions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

And also that you have find a tiny bit of hope freetobe…please don’t give up…try this book and her suggestions…awed

Whoa! Re-read my message and realize I left something VERY unclear...

jgnc: the book is NOT A-related at all! (She never mentions adultery) What I meant by my comment to you is that a BS in recovery has so much of their own resentment to deal with...and often (usually?) a discouraged, guilty, resentful, withdrawn or otherwise resistant partner to boot.

It is really hard to get through the recovery doldrums...in fact, I saw your comment on "getting over the A is the easy part" and you are quite correct.

The MB plans are very specific...but they sort of end at recovery! You have all the good tools but let's say you have my problem: your S doesn't believe in all that "BS" and so you can't even get to the point of POJA (except on your own, which is what I've been doing).

THIS is who this book is written for...to give you the patience and altered perspective that will help you ride out a long recovery.

Shucks! Now I've jumped the gun and spilled the plot-line to you after all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...yes, it involves a change in perspective. But I think that is a good thing.

And all the struggles I've seen on the recovery boards for the past 2 months in particular...they are all addressed here. A change in perspective...simple but not easy! (of course...)

That's why I said: perhaps you don't think you need something else right now. But I still think you may want to look at it for the future...think of it as an investment...I sure wish I'd had this advice starting out on my M recovery because I KNOW things would have gone a lot better if I had.

I'm sick of the school of hard-knocks which is why I keep on posting for others...please don't re-invent the wheel!!! It hurt enough the first time... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

freetobe: you may want to seriously consider looking at this book before you write the letter...time is on your side now, you know...no rush...

...and letter-writing is a VERY good way to go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...slows down the communication and helps you actually clarify what it is you want to say...awed

[ February 16, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]

Freetobe,

What finally got through to me.... The short version. I finally understood that my actions were hurting the woman I loved.

Longer version.
As far as communication (W talking at me rather than with me) this was a big big problem for me up until a year ago. She felt like I did not take her seriously or was trying to hurt her by keeping silent rather than at least acknowledging her feelings. About 1 year ago we had a huge argument about just that, she got so angry that she took off even though I needed the car to get to work. I got so angry that I got on my bike and rode to work (10 degree weather). That evening she called me at work and offered an olive branch. This had to be one of the few times that she controlled her temper, put her feelings aside and simply reached out to me. I was very moved by that. The next day I made an IC appointment. When she did that, I finally realized that wether or not I thought I had a problem that I needed to work out, the bottom line is the greatest person I had ever known was suffering because of my behavior and I did not want to live like that any longer. Something just snapped.

With the EA it was something similar. She had complained for a long time that my lack of ambition and tendency to get comfortable dragged her down. It was hard for me to take seriously. One, because this critizism was always usually accompanied by an LB and 2, because the message seemed to change every 2 weeks from that to "its not you its me." The EA and finding MB made me realize that I needed to figure out what she needed. I am trying now though I can't say that we see eye to eye on this yet.

I am glad to see that he may be beginning to understand. If I can suggest something. Talk to him about boundaries. I'm saying this because as part of a conversation tonight (more on this later) I've had to talk to my WW about boundaries and how A) I never learned to set them and B) she has learened (I taught her) that an AO gets her way every time. This is not at all resolved but it is starting a dialog about what a healthy relationship should be like.

Awed,
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look into it.

So my update, its a confusing one.

Things have been encouraging. There have been some good things occurring. First WW is finally acknowledging my feelings and her actions. In particular the betrayal. There had not been any C in a few weeks (more on this later). We are making progress in a few projects at home and she seems encouraged by my progress at work and at home. Anyways, she has shown me that she does want to end contact. At one point she was on her computer and he came online. At that moment she came down stairs to spend time with me because she did not want to make contact. So there is some encouragement.

At this point she still cannot express true commitment to me or the M. This hurts but I realize that it may be a long time before she can express commitment and mean it. She does say she does want the M to work.

The not so good things is that verification and trust are points of contention. She figured that I had installed keylogger software on her machine and demanded that I remove it. She felt disrespected by it. After a couple of huge AOs I agreed to it. If she could not offer me a way to verify that I can trust her then I was not going to force it on her. It is so strange that she can acknowledge that she betrayed me and say that my anger and suspicion is understandable but that she would not give me the one thing that could help. All because of her pride and inalienable right to privacy.

So skip forward to today, (few hours ago). She's been sad for a few days. All because of old old things (5yrs ago) w/ OM. At one point I went into her office because she had wanted to show me something earlier. She asked me to come back later. I was very suspicious. After a few moments I asked her if she was talking to OM. She was. sigh. I got very angry and left, slammed the door to my office. She sat outside my office and refused to leave. She felt her place was there. She knows that she is hurting me and she does not want to but she's like a moth to flame. At some point she said that she would go if I asked her because she did not want to hurt me. In a sense she was proposing that I go into plan B. She wants some time to sort this out without causing me more pain. She also seems to want time to get herself together, relearn to take care of herself again and then come back to the M. She knows there is no future w/ OM and that the road for her is in our M. However right now she cannot say that there will ever be NC. Her indepenedent side refuses to be told what to do.

I really don't know what to do. Exposure to OMW never happened at the request of my IC. IC thought that it may not be wise to toss the inevitable turmoil that would cause when WW seemed to be coming around. I don't know what's right anymore.

thats all.

Awed,

Again thanks for the book recommendation. For a brief moment there it seemed like we were moving into recovery, after tonight I have no idea. But for that moment, although I was glad there was no contact I was really really angry. For the first time in a while I was not worrying about plan A. I think that for the past 5 mo. I have mostly tried to not LB stay possitive and worry about her needs and making all the right changes. Doormat. For the first time I think I actually really began to think about my feelings and what she had done. The feelings that came out of that were incredible. At one point I seemed hell bent on destroying any chances at recovery I was so angry.

Now after todays events. I don't know what I feel, just another punch I need to roll with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have mostly tried to not LB stay possitive and worry about her needs and making all the right changes. Doormat. For the first time I think I actually really began to think about my feelings and what she had done. The feelings that came out of that were incredible. At one point I seemed hell bent on destroying any chances at recovery I was so angry. <hr /></blockquote>DANGEROUS. First off...you are NOT a doormat. Second...those feelings are simply going to keep on getting stronger. So...can you get the book? Can you get to a bookstore and just read it? Use the ERAP...you'll need it more and more.

You have done an amazing job my friend. Okay? Do you hear that loud and clear? You have done SO well.

1. Don't lose sight of Plan B. Things cannot continue on much longer or your love will be gone. (Does your counsellor understand this?) It is the BIGGEST danger to your M right now...not OM, not your W, not turmoil. YOU.

You are the only one holding the M together. You have to have the resources to continue doing so.

2. Check out the book's ideas. Are there any there that speak to you?

Here's what I'm thinking.

Maybe there are areas that you need to change all by yourself. Maybe you need to let go of your W. Maybe she doesn't need to live somewhere else for you to do this.

As long as you are still getting angry, you haven't accepted that it is completely up to her whether or not she changes.

I thought I had accepted this notion, and then reading the book showed me very clearly exactly where I had not. I NEED to let go completely. I need to accept that he will not change. But our relationship can, because it is a dance with two people, so when one changes the moves, the other one does perforce.

So maybe, just maybe, there is something in there that will help you over the next little bit.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She's been sad for a few days. <hr /></blockquote>...so let her be sad. Don't be bothered. She has the right to feel this way and it is no reflection on you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> relearn to take care of herself again <hr /></blockquote>...so let her learn. Let go.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> At this point she still cannot express true commitment to me or the M. This hurts but I realize that it may be a long time before she can express commitment and mean it. <hr /></blockquote>...stop asking. Let it be. This is honest anyhow. That's a start.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> At that moment she came down stairs to spend time with me because she did not want to make contact. <hr /></blockquote>That's incredible! Celebrate!! Enthusiasm!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She had complained for a long time that my lack of ambition and tendency to get comfortable dragged her down. It was hard for me to take seriously. <hr /></blockquote>...good because that's her problem and not yours. However, look at how you can support her with love. Empathize that it must be hard for her to feel this way, especially when she suffers from depression. POJA what level of ambition you both can live with.

There's lots of stuff you can do without accepting that SHE feels how she feels because of you. WRONG! That is her choice to do so. It is not your fault.

I can tell you as a (former) nagging/critical/sad wife myself...this is her problem to deal with.

That said, there are lots and lots of ways you can choose to handle this. Unfortunately, most of your instinctive choices are only going to widen the gulf between you!

To give you one specific thing in the book...she talks about how little things go a long way with women. And the examples she gives sure ring true for me. They may for your W as well.

In other words, the gulf between what is and what would make us happy...is not that wide. Effort on your part to meet needs, be honest, work together to find a solution...those are all excellent.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've had to talk to my WW about boundaries and how A) I never learned to set them and B) she has learened (I taught her) that an AO gets her way every time. <hr /></blockquote>...and this is where I think that book can really help you. The difference between what you want, what you need, how you communicate, and what kind of interaction you have...it's all there.

I can't say enough about it because it is speaking to me so loudly in recovery. It didn't when the A was going on (that's when I bought it and then forgot all about it).

But it certainly speaks to me now -- I've just finished reading it a second time. Because recovery is all about building a healthy M, thoroughly rooting out and eliminating all the bad habits you've grown into. ESPECIALLY when your resentment starts creeping in. Especially when you have your first major disagreement. The bad habits will sneak up on you before you know it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> She felt like I did not take her seriously or was trying to hurt her by keeping silent rather than at least acknowledging her feelings. <hr /></blockquote>...like this one. You can do a better job. I agree with her on this one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> the bottom line is the greatest person I had ever known was suffering because of my behavior and I did not want to live like that any longer. <hr /></blockquote>...NO! Sorry to be so blunt -- she's suffering because that is her choice. I fell in this trap...lots of women do. And many of us have H that have A. And many of us have A ourselves.

However...this also tells me that you love her deeply and want to work on making your M a supportive one for you BOTH.

Recognize the suffering jgnc...just don't accept ownership of it. Recognize your part in your M problems and work on changing you.

Hope this helps a bit. Overall you sound stronger although a tiny bit down now with the latest events. Think of it as a marathon...you are still in early training. The hard work is ahead. Let me save you some skinned knees and de-hydration. Look deeper in yourself now and start to change the focus onto you in a healthy way.

Hang in there...awed

weird...never had THAT happen before! Posted part of my message seemingly all by itself...these boards are strange...

[ February 17, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]

freetobe:

I don't want to take over jgnc's thread, nor the terrific discussion you two are having. I am so happy to see that you are taking that all-important step back into trying to save your M.

That said, I am going to write the reply to you here rather than privately because I think it does relate to jgnc too...it is all part of the same fabric of building a healthy M...starts during Plan A, ending the A, and then continues on in recovery, with all its ups and downs.

I empathize with you: I too am guilty of expecting too much too soon. All good things come to those who wait! That's why anything that helps with patience is so very helpful.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will admit I have a problem setting boundaries and then allowing my S to decided if he will follow or not. Most of the time I feel that he has to or that is it. I guess I do because to me that boundaries are important and also I have to abide by them as well.
<hr /></blockquote>...and you know better now right? Boundaries are YOURS. You are the only who enforces them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is difficult to do it lovingly when I already know that I'm not being heard. And also when my S will not at least acknowledge what I say. And I do ask him to tell me if he disagrees then also tell me if he understands or if he has something different to share.
<hr /></blockquote>...the answer is in the book. It is more than simply communication though. Look at some of my replies to jgnc. Men need to step up to the plate and tell us honestly how they are feeling. But we need to let go of a lot of what we're doing. It is directly harming the M.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Having a desire for my S to make changes that can actually build a R in this M is to me very realistic. <hr /></blockquote>...nothing wrong with your feelings. But it is not realistic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Take a look at the response to jgnc. You can change yourself. You can change your perceptions. You can set and enforce YOUR boundaries. You can change the dance and hence the interaction between the two of you.

But you cannot change him. Only he can do so. And as long as you have this desire (see jgnc's W, see my comments about myself...look at most women posters on this board), there will be negative impact on your M.

It is controlling behaviour, albeit quite different than the controlling behaviour men often inflict on women.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I mean we are alredy in the M so how can we go back to the beginning?
<hr /></blockquote>Create a new one!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> That tells me that he understood that I was having a difficult time hanging in there with him and his OW and his foolishness and that I must've loved him if I did. <hr /></blockquote>Okay...here's my attempt to save YOU the skinned knee! Accept that. He loves you and you love him. He wants to work on the M. Accept those concepts and believe in them. Start from that point and go on.

Do NOT focus on the negative. That is your choice.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> to me that meant that he now needs to hang in there with me and change his way of being. <hr /></blockquote>...I sense a great drought coming! That's what I thought too and I was wrong. Let it go...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I realize that we have 2 different meanings when it comes down to what actutally means working hard at a R. Perhaps it would've benefited me to expain this and allow him to show me bfore I took him back. <hr /></blockquote>...likely. And possibly.

But see if you can try a somewhat different approach, working on the only one you can change...you. See if it makes you happier.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It means making only the changes that he has decided that he would like to make. <hr /></blockquote>...and that is the absolute, factual truth. Right?

Go ahead you guys, argue with me! Who makes the decision about whether or not someone else changes???

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't know if it has to do with him comprehending what I mean or if he is just content to do want he wants to. <hr /></blockquote>...and this is where the exploration begins. You are going to try and figure out if you can make this M work, despite a reluctant partner.

In the end, if you have given it everything you can, and you are still not happy/content...well then, you will be able to make the decision to end the M with no regrets! This may seem like a raw deal right now but it's not. That is how I find the book empowering...because the shift in focus really does help us to do what we need to do for OURSELVES.

Read Daisy's thread to Pep...do you see what I mean when you look at someone else's example? We are making ourselves the prisoners of our bad thoughts/feelings/emotions. We are getting a very hard life lesson...are we going to use this pain and suffering to our benefit? To learn how to take charge of ourselves?

If so, regardless of the M, we will be better off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> If not, even if you get want you think you want in the short term (ie. a compliant H who says the right things you want to hear), I suspect that there will be pitfalls on the horizon that will hurt you in the long run (like another A).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> To me, it is like trying to communicate with an unwilling party. <hr /></blockquote>...and that is why I am convinced this book will help you too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It is written expressly for this purpose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Outside of discussing MB we get along well as, like friends, but the romance isn't there. <hr /></blockquote>...this one is a lot harder. And I know the details of some of your struggles with H...I know they are real and hope you do not think I am downplaying them at all. I am not. For some things, I think you will need to set and enforce firm boundaries.

I am however suggesting a different approach overall. The one you've been using isn't working anyway, right? So try something different. Perhaps following this approach will rekindle sexual feelings.

If I haven't told you this before, I didn't really have SF with my H for about 3 years. We used to be passionate with each other. Now I have great desire for him once again. My anger got in the way, plain and simple.

Well...overcoming your negative feelings will take time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> When I tell him how I feel and he continues in the same vein as if I hadn't said a word it makes me wonder what I mean to him. This makes me feel that he doesn't love me or he doesn't enough to sacrifice making change.
<hr /></blockquote>...I know I sound like a broken record...this is the reason I am recommending the book. Change your perspective. We women tend to do this all the time...make these assumptions, assign blame, etc. It's not going to work to make H change. Or if it did, it would be false.

We want real change...right? Not just lip service.

And one more thing: it's hard to talk to someone like jgnc because he cares so much about his W. It's hard not to compare, why can't my H feel the same way about me?

JGNC is here of his own choice. Your H and my H are not. We don't know what they will or will not choose to do in the future. Generally speaking, it is the W who does the R work. Perhaps we simply need to accept that about our H's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Especially when he's told me that he has found in life it is better to be quiet and play in the middle to keep people off your back. Middle means mediocre to me. It means one isn't willing to try harder and that doens't work well for me <hr /></blockquote>...change your perspective. He's telling you what works for him. Listen and learn. See if you can figure out a way that makes working on your M an advantage to him...good for him. Not just good for you (ie. being "obedient" or "controlled").

Page calls it "loving leadership"...absolutely in tune with everything else we've learned here at MB. Exactly what we were providing during Plan A. Leadership, boundaries, love.

Now our goal is to bring these concepts to the nitty-gritty of everyday life rather than during a crisis. It is hard to do. It is much easier to hold back on everything while in crisis. Much harder each and every day.

So to work... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you decide to do the work in the book, and you need a partner, let me know. I am willing to help, to struggle along with you actually! I don't know you personally of course but feel I do know you in a lot of ways. Perhaps you have someone you can trust to do it with you, someone close to hand. If not, consider my offer...awed

P.S. And please, both of you...feel free to disagree with anything I've said. If you think it's all hogwash...tell me! I am most interested in learning and we learn most through failure... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HI JGNC and awed18

First of all thank you both for your post.

JGNC I am sorry to hear about W's setback. So what do you think about where to take things from this point on? I know it has to be hard making steps up then steps back. But you have fought a long and good fight. Now it seems that a lot is being uncovered and discovered between you two. Yet W doesn't seem to want to let go.

As for me and H, your post is enligthening. Yes, S and I need to have the boundaries talk. Thing is that I'm so mad right now (Gosh I felt weird like I wasn't suppose to say that), that I've got to get the anger out first.

Which brings me to your post awed thanks for the book recommend. It sounds like a "must have". I am looking into buying it now. I know there is more in my control and that I'm only responsible for me. I guess it is just a matter of understanding and settng boundaries then allwoing him to just decide.

I guess it just seems a hard obstacle to get over right now. A lot of my anger does stem from thngs that he does that are inconsiderate right now. But a great deal of it stems from the past. A sister of mine that dealt with this before told me that I would have problems with this later on and even when I least expected it. Now is just a matter of dealing with it.

Update:
Next plan
Holidng off on letter
Seeking book
Rereading the post from you guys, as they are very helpful to me
Trying to take this one day at a time.

Have a wonderful day, and as usual I'm wishing you both the best.

Awed,

So I both agree and disagree with your comments. Is that possible? Maybe I something is not getting through. Probably I just need to read the book and make up my own mind. More on this later.

Freetobe,

My W's slip 2 days ago and the conversations about NC and verification have left me very very confused and I am not doing a very good job of finding my way right now. On the one hand there are some very possitive things. She acknowledges the betrayal. She believes the path before her is in the M not w/ OM, she left her computer to avoid OM, she has been more engaged w/ me and is separating her own sadness from me (i think). On the other hand there was C since then, she says she will not lie to me about it anymore but does not say it will stop. She asserts her right to privacy, at the cost of hurting me. She cannot express commitment. I don't know if this is a stumble that I should expect and try to move past or something greater that will not change w/out plan B if at all. For now I'm hanging in there because some things are different.

Some commentary,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
As for me and H, your post is enligthening. Yes, S and I need to have the boundaries talk. Thing is that I'm so mad right now (Gosh I felt weird like I wasn't suppose to say that), that I've got to get the anger out first.
<hr /></blockquote>There is nothing wrong with being angry. LBs are wrong, emotions are not. If you were not angry then you would not feel the need to have the boundaries talk. I guess this is where I begin to have a problem w/ the concepts awed has offered. It seems to me that it does not seem to acknowledge that at some point we will be angry. What is not OK is to LB back, this includes annoying behaviors like shouting or nagging. In this I agree it will not have the desired effect and if it does it will be 1) short term and 2) resented by both.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

"Having a desire for my S to make changes that can actually build a R in this M is to me very realistic."

...nothing wrong with your feelings. But it is not realistic. Take a look at the response to jgnc. You can change yourself. You can change your perceptions. You can set and enforce YOUR boundaries. You can change the dance and hence the interaction between the two of you.
<hr /></blockquote>I will also partially agree here. In regards to our communication, nagging shouting and other LBs never motivated me to make a real change so any change was to placate the LBing and hence not very permanent. When she changed her approach, and instead of LBing and finding a hotel room for the night she treated me w/ love and respect. It completely changed my perspective.

Is your desire realistic for your S to change realistic? I don't know. I cannot say that it isn't. If one sets a boundary and it is repeatedly crossed then change is necessary. Change may not occur, one can't control that, I agree. How one approachs their spouse can influence that but in the end it is up to ones spouse to do so.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

"the bottom line is the greatest person I had ever known was suffering because of my behavior and I did not want to live like that any longer. "

...NO! Sorry to be so blunt -- she's suffering because that is her choice. I fell in this trap...lots of women do. And many of us have H that have A. And many of us have A ourselves.
<hr /></blockquote>And this is where I disagree. In the context of what this was said in I was repeatedly crossing that boundary she had set. It was upsetting her and it needed to change. Her LBing wasn't motivating a change,true, but I had to change or face the consequences. The consequences then were A) living w/ the knowledge that I was hurting my spouse and B) possibly loosing her. I won't take responsibility for her LB but I will take responsibility for the effect of my actions on my W.

Maybe I'm seeing from a different perspective. I am a strong believer that people can change when they want to. I don't like approaches that put all of the responsibility on one person. Maybe I'm missing something. I hope I am. Perhaps it has its place when another won't change but even then I think that in the long term both spouses need to take ownership of how their actions affect the marriage and each other.

JGNC

Hi JGNC and awed

(From JGNC)

"On the other hand there was C since then, she says she will not lie to me about it anymore but does not say it will stop. She asserts her right to privacy, at the cost of hurting me. She cannot express commitment. I don't know if this is a stumble that I should expect and try to move past or something greater that will not change w/out plan B if at all. For now I'm hanging in there because some things are different."

Yes I know that strides are being made with you both. However W still seems maybe a little afraid or apprensive to let go. I guess I had a concern about how Dr Harley puts a time frame on how long to stay in Plan A.

I guess I've used to believe that all of the terms have to be done to the tee. But actually the concepts are indeed a guide and you have to decide what is best. It seems that now W is really beginning to make the changes that you had hoped for but they are mixed with setbacks. However nothing comes out a "perfect cake" in this world and indeed it takes time to work at things and deal with them. So I'm hoping for you that will work out and that your M will be completely restored.

You guys, I must confess that boundary setting has me in a tizzy. I guess I'm tabling the issue of boundary setting for the time. Instead I'm trying to focus on what is bothering me now. My H just feels that everything is just fine. He feels that if I had issues before this, why did we get M. I agree now that hindsight is 20/20.

However who thinks that they can do the things he did and that make the M perfect? Who can think that? More importantly how could I think that this would not be a major problem for me as time progressed. The problem I am having now is looking back trying to resolve the anger I feel against myself for accepting him back after all he did. So I guess a lot of my thought now is toward forgiving myself.

Well I'm sorting through this. and again rereading your post.

Whoa...I've just skimmed your message but I've got to post a quick reply immediately -- nowhere, nohow, am I suggesting you don't get mad! The whole point is that you do not, EVER, take your anger out on your spouse. Period.

I specifically mentioned (or thought I had <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) that that was why I was suggesting using the ERAP procedure...you MUST release these emotions before you can truly figure out how you want to respond, in a way the best advances your ultimate goal (ie. fulfilling M). And you definitely need to respond in some way to something that makes you mad -- even if the decision you make is just to let things sit for a while...then your reasoned, rational response is to wait.

Is that any clearer?

I'll read back in my post to see where everything became so muddy because that is not the impression I meant to leave with you!!!

One more point: I am NOT saying that people cannot change. The point is that YOU cannot change THEM. It is their choice, and their choice ONLY.

Taking this absolute truth one step further: As long as your underlying motivation is to change them, actions you take are likely to be unsuccessful.

JGNC: your W must make the choice herself to exit the A. Just like every other WS. However, you are doing Plan A to demonstrate how your M can be different...that you are willing to change...etc. You are not actually changing her but you are influencing her choice. The more you respect her choice, the likelier she is to change in the way you most want her to do so.

This reasoning runs counterintuitive to how most of us would respond (unguided) -- we'd yell or cry or make demands to END IT. Some WS might comply but in the short or long run, they'd likely go back to exactly the same behaviour (or perhaps better hidden).

If you are comfortable with using this approach to end the A, then the concepts Susan Page puts forth are merely an extension of that same approach in the rest of your M -- how the actions you take influence the decisions/choices made by your S. But it is always their option to change, not your role or right to change them.

Furthermore, life is 10% reality and 90% perception -- we are the ones in control of our own happiness.

Look...she wrote a book on it. I cannot do it justice in a few paragraphs...and she even says that she expects some of the stuff you read will piss you off! Precisely because everyone resists changing...

Especially those of us who feel we are right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...well, no problem. We may well be. I certainly think I am. So do I want to be right, or married?

Easy (or relatively so) to implement stuff when you are in crisis, when you have an external "enemy", when what your S is doing is so clearly wrong. To you and most of the rest of the world.

Different matter to change long-standing grievances between you, especially when your S is not willing to do the work, sees that you are critical of their behaviour, is in denial, etc. etc.

This of course is not a short post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I hope it cleared up those major misunderstandings...I would hate for anyone else to read what I've written and think they shouldn't ever be mad! Or that their spouse cannot change...awed

Just had a very difficult discussion over the phone with her.

Most of it I have heard before, she is very angry at everyone that has ever caused her pain. She sees the M as having ruined her life. Wants me to let her go and help her start an independent life somewhere else. Does not believe she can ever be in a committed relationship and if she had not been depressed 3 years ago she would not have married.
Unless she gets into grad school then she may feel better about making a commitment (which would probably last until another difficulty in life came by). I wonder how she would comment if she read this... Probably she would think I was being horribly unfair to her.

It was very VERY difficult to not LB. I basically told her that these are her choices to make and not mine. It is for her to decide if she wants to stay married or go. I will do what I need to do to help her feel fulfilled in the M or I will help her move if that is what she wants. I love her and want her to be happy.

The only new piece of information is that she would be more receptive about us making a move together if I had not been such an ******* in the past when she first talked about wanting to leave. (her choice of words not mine).

Another bit that is ringing in my head from a conversation 2 days ago, is about what a violation it is for me to look at the contents of her computer.

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! (wish I could just scream here at work).

Awed, I read and reread your posts and I think my response was based more on my perspective rather than your comments. I think that just a situation existing that requires unilateral action in a M is angering me right now. I went to Amazon and read the reviews of the book to get a different perspective. It sounds like a very interesting and useful book.

IC compared me today to a frog in a boiling pot. The temperature has increased so gradually that I don't see that I am about to boil to death.

Plan B? I don't know. At my ICs advice I did not expose to OMW but now I think I should regardless of what devistation it may cause between us. It may even end the A but it will not address her refusal to implement NC or to allow for verification, At this point it seems moot to even talk about this.

Hi JGNC

I am sorry to hear about how W feels because I know you wanted her to avoid going down this road. From your post you know, that she knows that the M is best for her. But unfortunately she is choosing another route.

I feel to some degree she is making excuses about feeling that she can't be happy in a R with anyone. Maybe she isn't ready to decide that she can with you though it means that she will have to dig in and try harder.

However this would require much more of her. And really until she deals with whatever is holding her back, whether it be the depression, fear, selfishness, anger and upset or whatever else she is probably right that she can't be in a R with anyone.

I am concerned for you. I think you gave her the good response in that you've hung in there long and hard through a lot with her. So I do agree it is perhaps best to help her become more independent outside of the marriage. But how do you feel? Are you ready to allow yourself the much needed rest from this situation that awed talked about if you go to Plan B? Are you ready to allow her to reap the consequences of her actions? Or do you fear that you have to hold on? Are you ready to accept that she may not want to give definite answers about NC and other things because she needs to see for herself that you and your M is what she wants and needs? That she maybe making these choices because she may not want to commit?

Someone told me something when I first found out that my S or boyfriend at the time was cheating on me. If your loved one has made the choice to cheat on you or to go against what is right for you both you have to believe that they believe they are making the best decision for themselves. Though you may know that this isn't true and everything within you protest what they have decided, they believe different. So at that point it is up to you to accept that because ultimately it is their decision.

Are you willing to accept that this is what at this time she feels is best for her? I do believe if I had heeded that word of wisdom I wouldn't be handling my M in the backwards fashion that I am now. My H definitely needed to see the consequences of his actions. Also he needed to learn on his own that our R was best for him. But for me I needed to believe that I was what was best with confidence and hopefully show him this and not in desperation and fear.

Now I am at having to try to show him what he should've learned himself and also what I deserved to allow him to show me (that he had changed). But anywho, such is the case.

JGNC I have seen a post on this site about doing a long term Plan A. Now this goes against what Dr Harley says. And to be honest it may encourage enabling the OP to continue in their behaviors. But I read I long post on this board about it and this lady talked about how she tried everything with her H and it didn't work until she let him go. She let him leave her for the OW and she showed him by changing her behaviors that she was what he wanted. I will seek out this post if your are interested. Let me know.

I know right now may be very difficult for you. Nothing very good and nothing very bad last for very long-- And whatever you decide myself and awed are rooting for you.

edited this post. ranting and raving.

[ February 20, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

[ February 20, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Makes a lot of sense. Learning about yourself and dropping judgement makes sense. If it is true that we teach others how to treat us then both you and I can teach our spouses to treat us better.

Have a good weekend as well.

Kinda coming down w/ something here but hopefully it wont ruin the weekend for me.

BTW I have a little more peace today, as a result of a long conversation last night. I don't where it will go but at least I am more calm and understanding today. My W has some serious trust and anger issues that she needs to address again. I just hope she realizes she may need help to do it.

Hi JGNC and Awed

I hope you feel better J.

Yes maybe we both can teach our S to treat us better. I'm really hoping so.

J I have a question.

"BTW I have a little more peace today, as a result of a long conversation last night."

If I may ask what caused you to feel at peace? Not that I'm looking for details. I'm just wondering if it was her reaction to your conversation that made you feel at peace or just that you felt peace because you got your point across (I mean if you did)?

[ February 22, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

well feeling more peace is a different than feeling at peace. :|

The conversation started very angry and disrespectful which unfortunately I reciprocated. I suppose what made me feel more calm was that instead of just tearing into me she began to talk about why she felt so angry, resentful and untrusting towards me, actually everyone. I was able to tell her many things that I have been holding back. It wasn't an easy conversation but it was an honest conversation. Nothing was resolved but I guess it felt right that I was able to get things of off my chest, like how much she LBs and know that she listened to me rather than getting the usual entitlement talk.

I am still stuck on NC and accountability. Although she does not think that he will write her back, she still seems to feel entitled to maintain occasional contact and sees accountability as a violation of her right to privacy. These conversations we have always seem to make me feel like there is progress but I don't see how we can truly make progress w/out NC and accountability. So I'm stuck. Is plan B appropriate if there isn't C but there is also no commitment to NC?

Still confused,
J

(Quotes by J in bold)

"I suppose what made me feel more calm was that instead of just tearing into me she began to talk about why she felt so angry, resentful and untrusting towards me, actually everyone. "I was able to tell her many things that I have been holding back.

Gosh I know it had to feel good being able to get your point across. And especially with W listening and not ripping you up. Do you feel that she lumps her feelings about other people and you in the same category? Or do you think that she sees you seperately? As the one who is different than everyone else, that loves her differently or with a different type of love?

"well feeling more peace is a different than feeling at peace. "

So at the time you felt better but you still feel upset about everything that is going on or just not quite satisfied with everything that is going on?

I'm asking for myself. I'm really trying to understand some things? Ok for me I am finding that I am angry many times about S and am not at peace. I guess I wish that I could find a way to be content regardless of what he does but this just doesn't seem to be happening. So I wonder is it really realistic to expect to not ride the emotional rollercoaster when you are trying to have discussions with S and make negotiations?

As the BS, you are dealing with people that practically do what they want. I'm finding it hard for me to committ to one thing and S to do as he pleases.

"I am still stuck on NC and accountability." "Although she does not think that he will write her back, she still seems to feel entitled to maintain occasional contact and sees accountability as a violation of her right to privacy."

This one maybe a toughy. Dr Harley talks about
WS being so addicted to OP that they won't stop NC.

In my life, now that the A is over I am finding it difficult to reconcile with the past about this one. My H never stopped NC no matter how many times we talked about it and why I thouhgt it was important.

So why did I take him back?

I think I was in a fog and taken over by an alien <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . To be very honest, this goes back to what I posted about how my decision making wasn't so good. I also talked about how I didn't want the OW to have H.

Well it wasn't all about that entirely. I cared about him, but also we have a son together and really I wanted us to raise him TOGETHER. We have history together and so on. This had been at the forefront my thinking that caused me to try to hang in there everytime I thought about leaving.

Though my H's actions warranted my leaving. I didn't. My H would tell me that OW would keep calling and coming around and he couldn't stop her. He would act as if it was up to her to stop NC. He acted as if he was powerless to stop.
I'd tell him if he wants to stop talking to her that we can work on it together. He would make excuses about how he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

Why did I listen to his BS? I don't know. To be honest I feel I enabled him. He thought I would always be around because Hey, I put up with this much right? And my arriving at this wasn't from what he said but what he did.

But for me, I was all about saving the R. Now I'm not faulting anyone for this decision because it was my decision to make. FOr me, it really hadn't registered that still I needed to allow this A to play out and then if my H wanted to be a man and wanted to prove it to me then I should've taken him back then and only then.

So not that I want to seem pessimistic but I do think that one can become sidetracked (as I was) so much with saving the M or R to the point that they miss not only what they can do for their S but also what they can do for themselves. For you, not that I am encouraging selfishness but when you look back at this you are accepting a lot from W right now. Though she is making some changes, she is to some degree holding on to things that prevent a sure reconciliation.

So for you, what do you want for yourself? I just say from what I am learnng now after the A is over, that you try to make sure in your heart you are doing what is best for you too. I think it is redhat that talks about looking back after 10 years with no regrets in his signature. When you look back what would you like to see?

I guess I'm trying to say that saving the M isn't all about the WS only. It is about saving you too. Doing what is best for you too.

I hope that made sense and wasn't a ramble as sometimes I slip into that.

"Is plan B appropriate if there isn't C but there is also no commitment to NC?"

From what I understand Plan B is no contact with WS because WS is in ongoing abuse of the R or M after you have tried to negotiate NC and haven't been successful. So Plan B is another effort to stop the A. With hopefully WS deciding to discontinue C with WS. So BS leaves letter with WS explaining conditions for return or reconciliation. Agreement for NC would be one of the terms spelled out in the Plan B letter as a condition for return.

[ February 22, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Second reply. Boy they both are long.

J, I just thought about something else also. You explained that W may see NC and accountability as forms of control. I believe that my S did also. Perhaps it might help her to understand that this isn't about controlling her but are about accepting an agreed upon element of marriage which is committment to vows that make you both secure in the M. So you protect each other's interest in the M. She isn't alone in this because you too agree to certain inconviences in order to uphold committment to the M.

I think my H sees things this way also. Many times he baffles me because I can't see why he can't see this as clearly as I can. Sometimes I think he wants me to be loose and ignore him and cold and treat him meanly as I did before to get my point across. But I don't want to perpetuate foolish behaviors.

Anyway, I think that the next problem with this view is that S just may feel that she really isn't willing to go against what she feels is more important for her preservation than what is for the common good of the M. Which brings you back to the same complication, W's decision.

update:

Over the past few days I've been trying to do more introspection. Weekend a little rocky. Some upset between S and I. I am at the point where I really want to be heard and that is that.

I gave S a letter because talks haven't been so smooth. It is like it was totally ignored. Anyway, we all have choices. This goes back to boundary setting. Things were rocky because of some choices we both are making. I really don't want resentment to take hold but also I don't want to compromise my postition. So do I want to be right or do I want to be married? I guess I want both.

Anywho, I am looking to order book from the net this weekend. I hope to not post so much about just "us" in the future I would like to talk about my life also. But I get tied up in us. Anyhow the weekend climate was really prety. Lots of sunshine. Did a few things not too big. Kind of a moderate weekend. What about you guys? What was your weather like and did you do anything fun?

[ February 24, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Do you feel that she lumps her feelings about other people and you in the same category? Or do you think that she sees you seperately? As the one who is different than everyone else, that loves her differently or with a different type of love?
<hr /></blockquote>Sometimes I'm just another jerk who hurt he, sometimes I'm the only one who has really cared. Depends on her emotional state.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So at the time you felt better but you still feel upset about everything that is going on or just not quite satisfied with everything that is going on?
<hr /></blockquote>I feel better but still feel upset sometimes. The conversation gave me a sense that there is hope. I will not be satisfied until NC. Yesterday she asked me if I will ever feel OK about us. My answer was that while OM was still in the picture.. No.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So I wonder is it really realistic to expect to not ride the emotional rollercoaster when you are trying to have discussions with S and make negotiations?
<hr /></blockquote>I think/hope the book Awed recommended will help. It sounds like it is similar to doing a good Plan A. You set change your perspective your approach and hope that he changes as well. I

Hi guys. Up early today getting a start on my morning. First of all, because I have come to realize that working on my M is a process I will make some post in detail and they may sound a little like journal writing and sometimes a little repetitive. Forgive me if so and bring it to my attention.

I'm hoping, I guess to note how things are happening in this process as well as share and gain knowledge from the 2 of you and give some also.

Secondly, I have been examining the motive behind some of the choices I made re: my M. I hope to understand what was happening at the time as well as understand what effected my thoughts. My hope is to get a handle on the state of being that maybe caused tunnel vision, which made for an environment conducive to being in a type of fog.

It seemed that while the A was going on I was too busy thinking of it to really see clearly what was going on. Now I guess I'm doing something that perhaps would've helped to do early on. Yet I appreciate what is happening now and the discoveries that are coming to the forefront.

Thirdly, I was holding some upset with S because of little episode over the weekend. I'm seeing that this is totally useless and now trying to let go of anger. Trying to understand S standpoint and mine for that matter. I realize that it would help for me to change my perspective greatly.

Well I'm out of here for now. Hope your day is nice. Have a good one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It seemed that while the A was going on I was too busy thinking of it to really see clearly what was going on. Now I guess I'm doing something that perhaps would've helped to do early on. Yet I appreciate what is happening now and the discoveries that are coming to the forefront.
<hr /></blockquote>I know exactly what you mean. I think we get so wrapped up in trying to save the R that we ignore what is going on with ourselves. Perhaps not even letting what has hapened sink in. I think its normal, I mean our brains can only handle so much at a time.

So I have an update.

Yesterday W&I spent a looong time talking about NC and accountability. After a couple of hours we were still getting nowhere. She can't commit, can't abide by accountability, not sure if she wants M. We even talked about me contacting OM or OMW. She fears that he may retaliate in some way against her if OMW found out. We finally decided to stop and have a nice dinner together.

During dinner she surprised me by telling me that she could commit to me and working on the M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I all I could do was thank her. She will make a commitment to me and block his e.mail accounts, the one sticking point is that she asserts her need for privacy. I want to say and feel that this is a good thing but I can't help wonder if I am being decieved again.

Freetobe, Awed,

well, if you read my other posts, you know that I'm dealing with a lot of anger right now and that I contacted OM.

Everything feels like it is falling apart right now. Because I contacted OM C will likely stop but I'm angry that she did not choose to end it herself. Maybe I was hoping for too much.

I find myself questioning everything (including M). I'm angry that I have to look after her feelings and tired of constantly sacrificing my feelings for her. I look at our 9 yrs together and see that I have let myself become less than a whole person to appease her temper and depression. it is going to be a long time before I feel ok about myself or M.

I hope that I am just taking a hard stumble right now and that all will seem better later.

I hope you guys are doing well.
J.

ah buddy...so sorry to hear this...anger is NOT the path my friend...I have wanted to write to you several times in the past couple of weeks but I have been so overburdened myself...

This is what I was worried about several weeks back...I could sense that it really was time for you to go to Plan B...

I saw so many hopefuls though in your most recent posts and wanted to urge you to hang in for a bit longer...truly hopeful stuff!...I started the post the other day and then...of course...didn't finish it...

I am a poopy supporter right now...my apologies to you...(good thing freetobe has been back in spades! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Please please please...you need to calm down and think rationally...wait 3 days before you take any action again...truly...I know you are at the end of your tether...but now is the worst time to throw in the towel...you may well be on the cusp of change...if not, then you can go to Plan B...

Is there anyone you can yell at? I'm perfectly serious...my mom has taken lots of crap from me...not yelling at her, but being angry in front of her (on the phone)...venting with another person there...it helps immensely...

Why am I still suggesting Plan B? because you are angry...which tells me that you still love her -- you are simply truly hurt by her actions...

But then, she is ill on top of delusional...

Okay -- to the specifics: of course she is going to want to keep him in the loop!...they pretty much ALL do...that is where the time and patience will do its work...as long as you do NOT give in to anger...do NOT LB...

This is your life bud...don't give in to regret...live it with your head held high...the feelings will go as she makes her choices that you do not want her to make...you will know when it is time for you to end the fight...okay? Take it from me: you're not there yet...if you quit now, there is a good likelihood that decision will eat away at you (regret)...I've actually seen this in action too...it happened with my parents -- I watched my dad never get over the loss of his wife (he was extremely angry) while my mom never looked back (calm and rational decision made over many many years)...

I suggested that book for a very good reason...the exercises help you to see how to stop trying to change her...it will only ever lead to anger...

She must make the choice...this is NOT what you (or freetobe or I) want to hear...but it is simple reality...until you let go of any notion that you can change her, you will keep banging your head against the wall (or regret banging your head against the wall)...

Let the scenario play out...I KNOW it feels like having teeth pulled without anaesthetic...that's why the only way to maintain sanity is to be with other people and give yourself headspace from thinking about the A...get out of the situation both physically and mentally whenever you can...with people who will affirm your self-worth...

You told me before this was not possible...MAKE it possible...

I am being very direct with you...I feel your urgency and cannot spend the time being more suggestive and/or using your words to demonstrate why this analysis of your heart comes across to me so clearly...

I am a long way ahead of you and still know exactly how you feel...does that give you any sense of how long this process takes?

My mom reminded me: this was my choice to try to save the M rather than just walk away...that's why I need to see it out now...don't change your mind because of anger...it is not your real mind, just like the decisions your W are making are not from her real mind...they are decisions made in a fog...

Write back...argue with me...just don't stop now...let's see if we can get you over the hump...

BTW: do you understand how to enforce boundaries? My counsellor (yes...I am back seeing one) just explained it to me this week...it's quite different from the general impression often given here on this site...it does not involve you forcing your W into any action whatsoever...

Hang in there...a big hug to you (sorry if you are not a huggy person...hugs help ease the loneliness though...try it in person, with a "safe" person of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )...awed

[ February 26, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]

I'm ok for now. W and I talked today although no real progress was made she tried to help me over the anger.

W is dealing w/ guilt and shame but still no actions. I'm angry but I don't hate her, I still know the difference. I'm not walking out on my marriage but I do wish I could find a cave to crawl into and purge these feelings. I do mean what I said about feeling like less that a full person, those feelings have old roots, rooted back to childhood.

I have a letter, it basically restates the letter I sent before, need NC letter, need accountability. It seems silly because after contacting OM I don't think there is much chance that he or she will try to contact each other. Its a matter of respect now I had to end contact between them (though if they really wanted to they could still try) now I want her to do something that shows she really means it when she says she wants to committ.

I can't say she's delusional or has ever been, just sad, lonely and pretty desparate. I really think that she had been trying to stop contact but has not been strong enough. She even told me that at one point a few months ago she really wanted me to contact OM or OMW. I guess I should have listened to everyone here. I didn't because I did not want to deal w/ her anger again and because of pride. I wanted her to end the EA. In fact one of the things I am angry about now is just that, that I had to end it rather than her by her choice.

tell me about enforcing boundaries, skill I never picked up in life.

[ February 27, 2004, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: jgnc ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm angry but I don't hate her <hr /></blockquote>no, I don't think you hate her either...but even if YOU thought you did, that is still love and entanglement...when you get beyond it, it will be indifference...that's why anger is such a clear indication that you still care, there is still hope, there is still a reason to keep on trying...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I can't say she's delusional or has ever been <hr /></blockquote>yeah well...I was misusing the word...I didn't intend it in the clinical sense...but of course she's "delusional" in the same sense that every other WS is...she is fooling herself...OM's likely fooling himself too...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I really think that she had been trying to stop contact but has not been strong enough. <hr /></blockquote>Her intent is what you need to focus on...she is trying...acknowledge and celebrate her intent...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I guess I should have listened to everyone here. I didn't because I did not want to deal w/ her anger again and because of pride . I wanted her to end the EA. <hr /></blockquote>This is your issue to deal with, as it is mine. There is no room for pride here...perhaps this is our lesson to learn!

Are you religious? Do you have spiritual beliefs? Even if you don't, you can take a purely intellectual approach to this -- this hell you are going through is an opportunity to learn and achieve significant personal growth. You've seen some of the inspirational quotes about this I am sure...as in one door closing is another one opening...

And here's the rub: if we don't learn, we are doomed to make the same mistakes again! So how about if we learn instead? Want to keep walking the path with me? Take something positive away from all this pain and anguish?

Following is a summary of my conversation with the counsellor about boundaries. My question: I've set the boundary, and I understand fully that it is mine to enforce. So I don't wail about him breaking it (ie. it is not his boundary, it is mine), nor do I punish (ie. withdraw) or threaten (ie. I will leave you if you do this again).

So what's the outcome? I don't understand -- if there are not any consequences for him breaking the boundary, what recourse do I have?

Note: I am not talking about a boundary with a firm consequence -- ie. if he starts the A again, I will leave him, period. I am talking about boundaries that are fuzzier...boundaries that if crossed, are going to reduce my love for him.

And she said...when he crosses the boundary, you tell him. That's it, that's all. Just like during Plan A and all the communication techniques we learned at that point. You tell him what action has concerned you (ie. what boundary was crossed) and how you feel about it.

Lightbulb moment: simple and incredibly scary. So he may well continue to cross the boundary. And I may continue to share with him how this makes me feel. And if he continues to do it, then it will continue to drain my love for him. And eventually...the M will be over. Scary scary stuff.

I think our situations (yours and mine) have a lot in common. My H is going through a MLC. Conversations with him can be really hard. He may shutdown completely...he may go over the top in anger. Or he may quietly and thoughtfully listen to what I say. I just never know which person I'll be conversing with.

In addition, as a complicating measure...he may forget all about our conversation, or warp it into something else later on. So the good that can come out of it may well morph into something negative over a period of time.

Patience, time, love. That is what I can give him. Looking after myself, continuing to detach from his choices, even when they are extremely painful for me. Knowing that his choices are not necessarily the same as mine, and that they are affecting the love I feel for him. All very very painful. Actually witnessing your love for someone diminish while you feel like you are standing back and not doing anything...heartbreaking.

Truthfully, it is harder now than it was during the A. He was so good for a long while in recovery which makes this recent slippage agony. I had my H back and he's lost again. In a snap of the fingers too.

Time, patience, love. And...once again...acceptance that our story may not end the way I had hoped it would, the way it seemed to everyone else that it was going to, the way that -- oddly enough -- even he would like to see it happen.

But he has to make the choice -- it is his life and he will live fully with the consequences.

My advice to you, what I have been living recently after the loss of my incredibly loving, sweet, sexy H into a cold, indifferent, physically removed roomate (who still loves to talk to me though!): celebrate what you can J...celebrate every single moment of clarity...celebrate that she tries to help you with your anger...celebrate that she comes to you instead of writing to OM...celebrate her each and every effort to resist contacting him....consider this: for each battle she fails, she's likely won a whole bunch that you don't know about.

Of course we want our WS to finally realize their mistake and cleave only onto us forever! I thought mine had. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But the guilt they must face inside themselves in order to do this, deep-down...it is immense. It is staggering...it is their crux of personal growth and lots of people will not be brave enough to do it...in the end, will not be brave enough to face their own culpability, brave enough to dig deep enough to make the personal change that must follow such a realization.

Look how hard it is for us to do this...and we are not facing self-disgust...the one thing we do not face in this crazy time of life...

Of course we hope our S will be one of the brave ones...of course we hope that we've given them enough incentive to do it...

We have. It is still their choice.

Believe me on this one! The OW in my situation is an appalling woman, a sexual predator, fat, ugly, obnoxious and a drunk to boot. Doesn't she sound a treat??? My H has NO support from anyone anywhere for being in that relationship in the first place. He was never in love with her, clearly saw that himself, ended the A immediately on d-day, did everything right with me vis-a-vis recovery.

And yet, he is moving back into fantasy-land. The lure is unbelievable. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone (ie. situations where the OP is not a real scumbag, if there were genuine feelings of love, greater attraction/sex/companionship, etc.).

I don't know if that helps or hurts for you to hear my story. I normally will not post a negative. But I feel incredibly compelled to do so with you because sometimes if you hear someone else's story you get a picture into the sameness of it all and that can obscurely comfort you...there is no rushing this process...it will take as long as it takes...

It is NOT fair... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

And that is why I continue to suggest the same old solutions to you...because they really are the ones that work...

Be loving, caring and supportive...praise every good action, ignore the bad (unless they cross clearly established boundaries)...leave her to work things out...discuss her feelings if you can...work out your anger elsewhere...actively, consistently seek affirmation elsewhere...lean on your support network, it is why they are there for you...we are here for you...

And take heart from this cold, bitter thought...if you leave her now, you won't feel any better. Not in the short term. And you very well may regret it bitterly. And truly have something to reproach yourself with.

BTW: one last thought at the end of a very long post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...consider the conditions imposed under Plan B. Look at the differences...if the WS ends the A when the BS is in Plan B, look at the recommendations vis-a-vis boundaries. They are much firmer, there is far less goodwill. The changes must be demonstrated not simply the "potential for" that happens when the A ends under Plan A.

Write back if you feel like it...take good care of yourself, no matter what...awed

P.S.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I do mean what I said about feeling like less that a full person, those feelings have old roots , rooted back to childhood.
<hr /></blockquote>So do I...get the darn book J <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...or at least have a look at it...it is helping me to readjust my attitude about "entitlement"...change it to "expectation", and sort through which ones I will fight for, and which ones I will simply let go...

J...I have grown immensely as a person through this process. Modesty aside <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , people loved and deeply respected me as a well-rounded, well-balanced person prior to this. Yet people have commented on how much I have changed. I am finding inner peace, that's why. I didn't even know I didn't have it before...but I didn't because I was unhappy in my M and did nothing about it. That is solely my problem not his, and I am doing everything I can to rectify it forevermore.

Early on in Plan A, I determined that I am responsible for my own happiness and he's responsible for his own choices. But I found the book helped me realize I still have work to do...to let my H go completely...to do it with great loving kindness, not revert to anger and implied threats of loss.

I am telling you this because I never had any problem enforcing boundaries in my M before...I am learning a new way to do so now, learning a new and lasting behaviour on my part...this is always tough to do....we all experience slippages you see...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I look at our 9 yrs together and see that I have let myself become less than a whole person to appease her temper and depression. <hr /></blockquote>As part of your self-exploration, you may well decide to end the M...but you can only do this over time, with calm reflection...

Hope all this stuff helps J...

pride... yeah. I can think back to everytime I have been this angry at someone in my life and I can say that almost everytime it has been a case where I feel I have given and given and hoped that the other person would give back or make some change and did not. This anger, its moving from giver mode to taker mode. I finally realize that I do not deserve to be treated that way and I am angry that I ever gave to someone that would treat me that way. Like I said long history, going back well before the M. Maybe what I need to do is stop hoping for change.

But accountability is not one of those fuzzy boundaries. Yes I could live withhout it and an NC letter. Especially since there will likely be no contact and she sounds sincere in her comitment. But I've been hurt so much, I really want her to prove it. I also think that if I let it go it will be yet another invitation to walk all over me again. Again pride or maybe just self-respect.

I am very sorry that your husband is slipping again. I do see many similarities. I will follow your recommendations ( be prepared to hear from me when it seems to hard to do).

I will be praying for my M and for you and freetobe as well.

Take care,

Jorge

Awed,

I would like to tell you how much touching your post to J was. It says exactly what I have been going through in the last several weeks.

My kids and all my close friends, family, etc. have commented on how I have an inner glow and I seem so confident and complete now. As you I had given everything in me to trying to make my marriage work. In the long run my kids and friendships had suffered. My husband has been very verbally abusive since he left ( and before) and he has definitely drained our love bank completely.

I have started seeing someone, because I married VERY young and have been a very subservient spouse for 18 years I needed to know what I true give and take relationship was like. I have no intentions of making this a relationship but have had alot of fun, being treated like a woman and paid attention to. It has helped me understand what I have missed out on all these years and what i want from my marriage if we ever get it back. My husband is on a road to destructiion and I have decided I have given all of myself and as much as I possibly can to him. It is completely up to him now to come out of the fog and realize that this OW has to go and decide if he wants to be married to me again. If he does it will have to be a new marriage to me. Start from the beginning and use the MB plan because I realize now how badly I was a doormat through the entire marriage and I will never do that again.

Sorry I got on my soap box!

Resaann

Awed freetobe or anyone,

I don't know if I'm giving up or just tired or what. Dealing with the realities of the past week has been hard. On top of everything I've mentioned here about the end of EA a W's attitudes things have gone pretty badly at work and now find myself in a situation where I have to get things turn around quick (like 2mo) or look for other work. Finding other work would be very hard to do. Loosing work right now would have some severe consequences. Take that and top it w/ EA issues and W's usual depression/anger and it is getting to be too much. I can't concentrate enough on one thing to do it well (M or work). I am really regretting not going into plan B when you recommended it. Now w/ the A over, as far as I can tell, I don't know what my options are.

We've been talking about her going down to her fathers for a month to pursue some personal goals. She wants to do this at the earliest in May after our anniversary in April but prefers to go in June. Because of the way I'm feeling I'm really thinking of asking her to go as soon as possible, Mid-March maybe. If I have any concern it is that we won't miss each other. My instincts are to protect myself right now. I don't know if any of this is a good idea or not.

help apprciated,
J.

Hey J,

So sorry to hear this. Are you spending a lot of time thinking about the M? Could you give yourself a break in which to concentrate on work instead? Sometimes a breather will help!

I don't know about being apart though...I wonder if that will just mean contact starts again? She'll be vulnerable.

Have you tried talking to her about this issue? That you really need to concentrate on work for the next while? Is she supportive of your work?

Give it a few days. Don't think about it and then come back and see if you feel differently.

Going to Plan B just when she's ended the A does not feel right to me. I've never seen someone else suggest it.

Hang in there...you are tough...repeat after me: I will make it! awed

thank you for your reply. I know you have your own things to deal with.

I completely blew up tonight. I've spent all day at work unable to concentrate even though I know how much I need to focus. All of the anger just came pouring out tonight. W thinks I'm self destructing and she's right. I feel like I've entered survival mode and even she commented on it. Like I need to focus on just one thing if I'm ever going to save all of this. Losing the job would be very bad. I think I would lose everything then, probably even her. We talked about separating. She says that after what she did, she will leave if I ask her, I don't know if I want her to go or not. I definately don't want to kill the M. It just seems like it may be easier to just deal w/ work right now. Then it would be a safer more supportive environment for her when she returned. I think we are both a little scared of separating, even for a month or 2. She's concerned about me being alone, I'm concerned we won't miss each other. What other recourse do we have?????

No problem J...I've been overwhelmed with deadlines...this is my busy time of year plus I decided to apply for a graduate program and needed to find a big chunk of time (out of thin air???) to complete the applications process (done yesterday).

I'll keep on popping in though to check on you.

Can you see a MC right away? Your W is worried and scared and so are you...separation may entrench things you don't to have entrenched...you are at a fragile state in your M right now...

A MC might be able to give you good guidance...saving yourself is #1 but anger is not a good basis for decision-making...get professional help.

I suggest MC rather than IC because it is important that you both be part of the discussion and that you both be part of the solution.

Make sense? Any thoughts? awed

I'm seeing my Dr. for anti-D's on friday. Seeing IC on thursday. I wish both could be sooner. I will talk to W about MC.

W doesn't know if she will be able to give me the emotional support I need right now. It helped to talk to her some but inevitably her panic about what is happening at work and her anger over her guilt prevail both of which leave me feeling worse. After talking about this work issue she no longer feels safe enough to commit to M (and she wonders why I didn't tell her sooner <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ). Now I have to spend time reassuring her that I will do everything possible to turn things around while I'm bearly keeping myself together. I hate this.

J.

Oh, grad school, very cool.

Hi awed and JGNC

Oh my goodness so much has happened over the past couple days for both of you. I've been out of town and not as able to use a computer. I'm doing ok.

I want to post more little later.

I was wondering how you were doing.

J and awed I've been reading your post and having problems of my own. I'm sorry to hear of your H's slippage awed and J of W's choices.

But you guys really when it all comes down to it it seems to steer back to that little word. Decision. Decision, decision, decision. We all have to make them.

Well there is so much I would like to comment on but awed has done such a great job for me that I don't think i'd be able to add much. I'm back here and willing to listen/read.

I did have a few comments.

(quote from J in bold)

"W doesn't know if she will be able to give me the emotional support I need right now. "

Maybe W is preoccupied with her concerns right now, how are you at giving support to yourself? How is your self-talk?

"It helped to talk to her some but inevitably her panic about what is happening at work and her anger over her guilt prevail both of which leave me feeling worse."

Ok you accept that she is dealing with this in her own way, but for you hang on to knowing that you will survive. Though maybe everything seems to be going to hell in a hand basket for right now.

"After talking about this work issue she no longer feels safe enough to commit to M (and she wonders why I didn't tell her sooner ). "

J are you wrestling with W's response? This sounds very sefish and inconsiderate. But hey this is how W feels for now. Maybe it isn't the most ideal way that you would like for someone who cares about you to react but it might help to accept that for whatever reason this is her reaction.

It probably hurts that she is responding this way, but indeed you will survive. You will be ok. It is what it is for the moment. No more and no less. If you can make resolve with it, maybe you can just let it go.

awed so how are you handling the slippage?

As for me I am doing ok. To be honest I'm not quite sure of the road I'm taking. But I am at peace. To be very honest I'm taking it one day at a time and that is just fine with me.

[ March 02, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

J I wanted to make more sense of what I meant as it pertained to W's last response about not feeling she can commit to the M.

From your standpoint you might expect that this would be the time that W would come forward to support you through this situation. However her response seems to point in the other direction. Maybe it helps to explore why she feels as she does. Maybe it is because she feels she is the reason for your work suffering or that she is a hinderance. Or even that she is making an excuse to remove herself from the sitaution.

This point of view puts herself in the light more than having a interest in your well being and wanting to support you. I could see that this might be upsetting to deal with. But so that you can keep a clear head and focus instead of getting stuck at where she is, maybe it helps to accept it but not allow it to become a mental torture by thining yourself into an upset about it. But instead resolve to acknowledge it as it is and that is that.

Now maybe I am off base here. If so please let me know. But I really so wish you some personal peace and I really hope that things will turn around for you at work 100%.

The one bright spot is that W has agreed to restart MC. Also she is reaching out to her parents for support, though she is not telling them about the EA. She is trying to be supportive. The problem is the LBs when she can't be supportive. yes she seems more focused on herself and gives in to AOs and DJs when she does. She wonders why I did not tell her earlier and the answer is because of the LBs when I do bring things to her attention.

No I was not been very supportive. This all started because I could no longer contain the anger. I know that's bad. Like I said I wish I had gone into Plan B but that is no longer an option. Last night I felt like I had been kicked and kicked an kicked and then left for dead. Now I just don't have the energy to deal w/ explosive emotions and keep myself together and my job together. No amount of venting here can help like an honest conversation w/ her. So far she has been protected from the consequences of the EA but that doesn't happen because when she is confronted with the truth all hell breaks loose.

It is the unstability that is working against me. Right now she is being supportive, I don't know what will happen tonight. Like before she can be loving now and explosively angry the next. It is very difficult to live like that.

I know I sound very angry and I am (though not all the time). I also understand (thank you awed) that she is going through terrible guilt. Knowing about the work issues is only compounding this. I want to help her but don't know how to do it without sinking myself. I know.. detach, I never did a good job of that.

Friday we saw "Lost in Translation". It was a very difficult film to watch. Neither of us knew what it was about. Watching it was like watching her story w/ OM develop before my eyes, except my Ws story goes further. It was enlightening and really helped me understand how my W felt before the EA.

freetobe,

Your second post I think pretty much nails it. Thank you. Yes she is seeing herself as the cause of all of this and yes she does want to be supportive. She is also afraid that she does not have what it takes to be supportive and for that reason she is willing to go.

I am holdin off on separating. I will see where MC takes us.

J.

freetobe: great posts! Hope all's well with you....I like and support your one day at a time attitude...it's the only way to make it...

J: I don't know why you think you can't control your angry reaction...have you been trying all the outlets? Deep breathing, venting loudly...pounding the bed...strenuous exercise...

The anger is hurting YOU.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I am holdin off on separating. I will see where MC takes us. <hr /></blockquote>Great news!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Friday we saw "Lost in Translation". It was a very difficult film to watch. <hr /></blockquote>Don't do this to yourself again. Check the contents, and don't watch something that is going to trigger you. You have more than enough to deal with...don't add to it at ALL.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I want to help her but don't know how to do it without sinking myself. I know.. detach, I never did a good job of that. <hr /></blockquote>So DO IT! Focus on work. You can't help her...you need to help youself first. As long as you are this angry, that will come through to her in some way. Focus on yourself, focus on your work.

That's the best way you can help her anyhow.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> No amount of venting here can help like an honest conversation w/ her. So far she has been protected from the consequences of the EA but that doesn't happen because when she is confronted with the truth all hell breaks loose. <hr /></blockquote>I suspect you mean a punishing conversation with her. If all hell breaks loose, then simply discard it as an option right now. YOU vent, by yourself, and work on other things.

Give yourself some space.

Gosh, I cannot stress this enough with you J. Please take some hard-earned advice here...ignore what you FEEL you should do...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Like before she can be loving now and explosively angry the next. It is very difficult to live like that. <hr /></blockquote>This is recovery...it goes on for a long time...

Why can't you protect yourself from her anger? Can't you walk away and say we'll discuss this later?

Take care, both of you...awed

P.S. How am I handling slippage...further detachment and finally letting go of the fear...finding peace inside myself and getting used to being alone...trusting that everything I've done and everything I am doing is right for ME...accepting that I can do everything right and it doesn't mean the M will survive...

Does that help? I have given you two every possible hint and tip I've discovered. It takes time for you to feel better...it takes time for recovery...

And that is why I think it is great that you are taking things one day at a time freetobe...it is the only possibility as a matter of fact...

Be healthy...think healthy...stay healthy...you will make it...

HI guys.

You know, I think now is a trying time for us all. Yet, there is growth in the works if we hang in there.

Awed thank you for your post. It encouraged me. J thank you for your honesty. You have to be where you are at the moment but accept the possibility of there being change in us.

I am piggy backing awed a little but only because I have a concern for you. I appreciate the fact that you have been venting to us both about the anger issues that you are dealing with. When I posted to you I wanted to get accross to you that it is very much so warranted the anger that you feel. W's reactions may seem to make it so hard for you to achieve your desired result with her.

But I know that you can be happy (moreso content) in the midst of the difficulties with her and your job if you can accept things as they are.

The tendency in all of us is to want to change the circumstance and make it be as we would like it to be. Well usually there comes the problem of seeing that if things are just as we want them to be we have to make like a super hero who has the ability to bend reality. Unfortunately we don't have those abilities. Trying to pretend we do by taking on the world makes for a lot of heartache, self-induced heart ache. Yet we can be happy or more like content in it anyway. Boy how I wish I could be a superhero. That would be lovely. I'd be Wonderwoman.

While my intent is not to sound preachy, I do hope to encourage you. I think you are on the right track and you're giving it (your M, your life)all you have to give. Just gotta work with the anger part.

Anyway, I too have been dealing with anger. My anger stems from much of the past hurts that H has caused and some that are in the present. I'm taking a lot of time thinking things through and allowing the anger to dissolve.

This is definitely easier said than done. For me, I know that if I show anger it will only cause my H to be distracted by it instead of what I'm trying to get accross. With him he may try to do things that will pacify me instead of really hearing what I'm trying to say to him.

At the same time I want to heal myself ( that may sound strange) so that I can be sure of what I'm trying to convey to him. I'm trying to make sure I know where my hurts stem from because they aren't all about him. Some are personal and come from other places, parts, and times in my life.

Then I want to make changes that are good for me (and him)and that I can adhere to in the future. Long lasting changes. I know some of this may sound redundant but for me it is taking time to sort it all out.

So much for my update. awed I really hear what you are saying but I feel some concern for you and a little sadness too.

You are welcomed to do some venting here too. Right now your situation sounds a little grim but things do change sometimes for the better. Even if they don't I wish the best for you and believe as you noted that you will make it regardless. We all will.

For the three of us, I know that things will work out for our good. Have a great day guys.

One more thing:
awed I used your tip about venting the other day to my mom. I think it was an eye opening event because she sees my H as the SIL that can do no wrong. She sees me as the meanie. She and I have some recovery to do as well. But anywho it was somewhat helpful.

Hi J I saw you had been out here. If you are now, how's it going? I thought it was great that W agreed to MC and her is now family supporting her.

You know if there was one more that posted on our thread we'd have the sum of "Hobbits" to fellowship with the Ring or shall I say to fellowship with our quest in love and marriage.

Oh for the predictable success of such a movie that won all 11 Oscars it was nominated for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What can I say, I loved it too.

venting again,

There is something inherently unfair here. I know find myself having to reassure her all the time that my work situation will change and that I will not be losing my job. I am also making myself accountable to her by telling her everything that's going on at work so that she does not have to worry so much. I'm doing for her exactly what she has refused to do for me regarding the EA. Argh.

Today I was up a little late, which is still considerably earlier than usual and I get this nagging little comment... I understand she is scared about my work, since she doesn't work and will depend on me to get through grad school. Now she feels she needs to tell me exactly what I need to be doing to fix things. what makes me so mad is that everything is about her, she feels guilt and thinks that if I lose my job it will be her punishment. She is scared of the consequences to her. Right now the M is furthest from her mind she just wants to be sure that the stability returns to the household. Well that's just great. The state of the M is what is foremost in my mind and has been the reason for all of this. Typically, instead of addressing what is hurting me she wants to address what she thinks I need.

Before, I wasn't talking about a conversation to vent on her, Just a chance to talk openly and honestly. Despite my venting I am not looking to punish or hurt her just to get things of off my chest.

As far as unstability goes, yeah I know this will last a long time. I honestDepression, low self-esteem which fuels much of her anger has been going on for a long time. So now I find myself asking really tough questions like why did I get married who can't fulfill ENs. I remember asking myself before the wedding, how long will I be able to be w/ someone that is always depressed. I banished the thought and now I sometimes wish I hadn't.

well that's enough venting

I know I need to accept that this is just how it is right now and that there is only so much that I can affect. Work is definately up to me to turn around. W will be too concerned about work to really work on M so work will have to come first. I think though that at some point I'm going to tire of giving.

take care,
J.

feel a little better to vent. Have IC in 1/2 hr.

Like your hobbit reference. Great film, dunno if it deserved the Oscar, but hey I'm a little to much of a purist. I'm currently painting a map of middle-earth on a wall in our family/movie room. Parts of Two Towers still make me cringe. I almost yelled at the screen the first time I saw it. Return of the King was excellent but other films were good. I heard great things about Mystic River and Lost in Translation was excellent, I just should not have watched it.

take care,

J

I don't know if LOTR deserved so many Oscars myself. To be honest I watched the show more for purpose of increasing my fashion sense, I loved the gowns. I know who's cares, right?

Anyway the wall mural (hope I spelled that right) sounds really nice. You're an artist, huh? Oh what a talent to have. Hope your project turns out good.

About films, I'm thinking about seeing "Lost in Translation" (sorry that is was sad to see) since Frances Ford Coppolla's daughter (Sophia Coppolla) directed it and won an Oscar for it. I have enjoyed some of his work. Maybe the apple hasn't fallen too far from the tree. I like it when families are involved in the same industry.

I'm glad that you are venting here, J. This is definitely the place. I want to post more soon.

I need to get this off my chest. WHY THE HELL DID SHE HAVE TO CALL ME AT WORK TODAY.

I was doing just fine, being productive until she called.

It all starts because of the offer we got to take in a dog. I've wanted a dog for a long time. After some discussion we decide its not a good time for us to get a dog (good thing). However, for whatever stupid reason my eyes started to tear up while we talked. I could not believe it but it got me thinking. Why do I want a dog and it hit me that most of the recreational companionship going on is based around what she wants to do and I can agree too, this involves work around the house etc but it is not the same as being out on a nice day or taking a hike or other outdoor activity. I'm looking for a dog because my wife will not eanthusiastically fill this role. I felt so lonely at that moment.

Now I'm just angry and I can't shake it.

I've had so many down days recently I figured I'd post a possitive update.

Feeling better today. Although I'm still not concentrating as much as I would like it has improved conciderably. I talked to her yesterday, got some things off my chest, she listened to me and I listened to her. I'm stopping accepting responsibility for things that are not mine to fix or do and it is helping my mental state. I'm still talking to my doctor about anti-ds because even though I feel fine a lot those days that I don't I wish I hadn't passed them up.

I wouldn't call myself an artist by a long shot. I reserve that word for people that have spent the time and dedication to develop their talents. I have some raw undeveloped ability. Friends have always ecouraged me to develop it and even switch majors but the computer field a) called to me b) was more lucrative and c) was easier roll

I would love to develop it but that's really one of my problems, there are sooo many things I would love to develop. The map is going well, its nothing terribly fancy but hey, W likes it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Currently it is mostly penciled in on the wall, after that is done then its time to apply the inks. I have to many projects to work on.

Hope you are both doing well.

J.

Hi guy.

Boy sounds like you were going through a tough time. Glad to hear you bounced back. Well it is good you have some raw talent like that of art. You are probably modest when you refer to your talent. Not too many people can pencil something on the wall. Are you doing by a tracing pattern? If you are doing it by your own design then I know you must be pretty good at it. Maybe at some time if your interest should grow stronger (toward) you may want to pursue it. It is good to hear that you have somethig like this that comes from you naturally.

To be honest I don't have a career going for myself. I hate to admit it but I'm in the process of trying to develop one. Hey I know we all have to start somewhere. As a bit of a side talent, I sing. So I've wanted to develop it but have no earthly idea where to start. Sometimes I wish I had a talent more like art that is like a special something which allows you to express yourself. Singing is sort of different in the aspect. Anywway so much about that.

(Quote by J in bold)

"I'm looking for a dog because my wife will not eanthusiastically fill this role. I felt so lonely at that moment."

J, as I read your coment about the dog and your wife with recreational companionship, I too felt teary and upset for you. I can understand very much so how upsetting and painful it must be for you with W not wanting to spend time in a recreational way. It sounds like it is really starting to dawn on you, the frustration of not having something that you really would like to have with W.

The love deficits seem to be mounting up. What does it mean for you that W isn't being a part of your life as it pertains to recreational companionship? Is this something you can talk to her about?

take care.

Hey guys! Good!!! We're talking about other things...this is SO healthy...J you are getting better...hear me on this bud...you just keep it up!

Rollercoaster...up and down...up and down...before it was just down and when you came here you vented then left for a while right? So now you are using it for the vent and to post progress and to rant and to query...I think this is the strength of this place in part...

Okay: I love the movies. I have been a fan since I first read the books as a young child. I first read ALL the appendices when I was 14 (free -- they are really long and most people NEVER read them!).

I too cringed at parts of II -- no need to "improve" on a masterpiece. And I've heard lots of dissing because people find III too "gay" with all the guys kissing and hugging and crying...hey! That's how it happened but much much longer in the book. It is a kind of heroic love, non-sexual. The relationships were deep and loyal...they were leaving each other for the rest of their lives. I've cried each time I've read the book.

You can say I am a fan!

And free, not only the gowns but the scenery, the action, the sheer breathtaking HUGENESS of it all...amazing rendition of a classic.

Whew!~ Wordy ol me...

J: paint away. Free: sing away. All of the extra-stuff I've been working on for the past 6 months is working wonders in my soul. I wish I could tell you what's happening in my life but I don't know. It's rather mysterious and the future holds many possibilities.

J: let go. Please. It feels better. Cut and paste the lines you wrote (I don't have your post in front of me as I write this) but you said you feel better. Remind yourself of that. Let it go. You need to do this to stay sane. You are only at the beginning of the road.

And think about ending the M, but know that you are a long way from doing so. Thinking gives you a mental break, you know, when you need to just scream out: IT IS NOT FAIR! I DON'T DESERVE THIS!!!

You will know when you are there when it no longer hurts and no longer makes you angry. Until then, it is a long haul.

And you know what else? I don't think it is worthwhile thinking what if. I was just talking to someone else earlier tonight...she said she was questionning her M in the same way.

You did what you did for the reasons that seemed right to you at the time. You too free...even more so I would say because you will have a beautiful beloved child from your union.

Regret is a useless emotion, a waste of time. If you regret, then analyze and decide what changes you will make to prevent the same mistake again.

We already know...we are here. We are learning. We will not make the same mistake again. So just drop the regret and spend your precious life and mental energy thinking how much fun you are going to have in the future...painting a mural, going for long walks in the woods, singing your heart out, or slaving in grad school! I hope I hope...it is a long-shot because the odds are totally against me...very small program, lots of competition.

Anyhow: I have had a good week...perhaps you can tell??? I have moved past the fear and feel free. I am an impatient person, liking to take charge of whatever is bothering me. I don't let things fester usually. So MB has been agony for me.

Intellectually I understood I needed to move past fear but seemed unable to do so.

Guess what? TIME. Give it time. Let yourself proceed at the pace you need to do so.

Okay: I hope this was positive and chatty, not preachy and self-satisfied. But what the heck! I'm alive and on the verge of my new life. Feels real good...

you two take care...I am up to my eyeballs in work these days but try and check in as I can...I wish it was more often than it is, or rather, that I could post as often as I used to, but fiscal year-end means lots of work in a very compressed time...bad side of consulting but the pay more than compensates...awed

Oh yeah: J, I hate the thought of anti-Ds. I suspect it is some sort of corporate conspiracy actually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Nevertheless, you need to work and have been struggling a lot...think about it carefully.

I was/am going through a tough time. Just 1 hr ago I was thinking maybe looking for anti-d was overkill but I went anyway. After I get back I called W to checkin w/ her. She was glad I went. Then she asks me if the car payment got in on time because the current statement did not show it. I checked and I don't know how it happened but I never paid it. The world just seem to crumble at that moment. I guess I do need the anti-ds afterall.

I'm using an art class trick I saw a friend use in highschool, you draw a grid over what you are trying to copy and then a grid on your paper (or wall in this case) then you focus on copying each square, which is much easier. Its like assembling a puzzle after that.

My W tells me that I'm too modest, I just look at the work of artists I admire in comparison and know I'm not remotely in that league but someday maybe. Up until D-Day I was really putting effort into miniature painting, but have not touched it since. I think I may finally pick up a brush but it seems like I'll have to relearn everything I was just getting the hang off. Once I considered a career in art but that was when I was really depressed in college so I wouldn't consider it a real attempt.

Don't down singers, my sister studied voice (opera) and sings w/ two national choirs. Someday she may even get paid. Talk about the grass being greener, oddly enough I often wished I had a talent like music that allowed me to express myself. My brother and sister inherited my dad's musical talent. Father has talent he never developed my brother and sister did. Actually I bro got the artistic genes as well, he's the type that can copy something freehand. I tried music and failed. Someday I may try again. I love music. I could not live life w/out it. So I guess it kinda bites when you love something but don't have the talent to create it. I guess the lesson is be happy with and develop the talents you do have.

One of the things my W has always been great at is encouraging me to develop my talents. The best birthday presents have always been gifts she gave me to help me pursue art. I've often hoped that if she ever published a story or novel that I would illustrate for her.

Anyway just rambling now cause I'm down now and it feels good to think about these things.

Hey good to hear that you are developing a career, the important thing is that you are doing something not the circumstances leading up to it. Failure is when one stops trying (my opinion). I hope everything works out well for you. What are you working for if I may ask?

It's a tough economic environment. I see my W try to cope with that everyday and it is rough. In my field we keep on seeing our jobs head to India and wonder how much longer we can last. I guess that's the nature of a global economy. That would be the irony of ironies, if I busted my butt to turn things around only to have the work send to India. dark humor I know.

about RC. it's not that she won't, she says she enjoys anything we do. We talked about it and she said just name it, and that she would love to do any recreation. But she's said that before, like w/ SF. In the past 'anytime' meant anytime SHE feels like it. So its hard to trust. I guess the problem is that she does not seem to value it. She'd rather work on the house or take classes, she's always looking for improvement. She's always looking for the next accomplishment. She is never satisfied, me... I'm a "smell the roses" kinda guy. She probably feels the same way because I don't seem to value what she wants. interesting. I will do my best to take her word this time and give her a chance.

Those deficits have been piling up since we were married. On both sides I think. I've just always believed we could make it better. Maybe it was just self-deception. I really don't know. Depression was/is a really hard thing to deal with. I never learned to detach. As a result I think I started hurting her from day one. Maybe the things I am learning here will make a difference. There's yet another book I saw about living with a depressed loved one that I need to check out (as well as Awed's recomendation).

Feeling better after ranting for an hour so time to head out.

HI guys.

awed I heard you loud and clear about the "what ifs". I know that for me they make for more upset and frustration than happiness and progress. Oh by-the-wy I'm so Glad to read the perkiness in your post. You are usually perky but your post seems to read that you are even perkier (I know that's not a word). I'm happy for you.

J, you too sound more optimistic. I'm glad also that we are talking about more than our loved ones and other things that we appreciate in life for the moment.

What is in order for the weekend. You guys doing anything special? Well awed I know you'll be busy. I'm actually going to workout this weekend. This is something I hadn't been able to do for a time. But I'm happy to jump back into it.

J at the time I'm a domestic engineer as they call it. So I'm actually looking to develop a career. I have many interest so I'm working in the area of assessing my aptitudes that would benefit me best toward a particular field.

I have a question for you both. Remember how I mentioned once earlier that everything has moved to quickly between my H and I that we hadn't had a chance to actually cultivate a R.

I've been thinking about us starting over and I wonder what you guys think about this. How realistic does this sound? Give me your feedback on what you think about it.

To clarify starting over, I guess I mean taking the time to actually date again, learning to talk and communicate with each (something that is very minited between us), learning not to lean toward each other selfishly. And for me cultivating a sentiment of being with a person because you (he and I) sincerely want to not because you don't have someone else to be with at the time.

[ March 06, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Well...this is preeeeeetty funny...the program is in conflict resolution! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Yup...kinda ironic. I was originally going to apply to the program last year when my M fell completely apart (the A was ongoing but I didn't know it at the time). My dad died, I was the executrix, lots of stress, and here was my H yelling at me each and every day! One day he'd berate me for not dealing with my brother, the next for dealing with him! Doing 180s and yelling at me from both ends but that didn't seem to bother him at all.

Complex, guilt-ridden guy my H...couldn't stand the way my brother was "disrepecting" me...pretty "funny" in hindsight...hmmmmm?

I kicked him out...it was at the end of a long long time of conflict between us (in hindsight, while the A was ongoing!)...I just said, I don't know who you are any more but I cannot believe how you are treating me at such a stressful time in MY life. (It was all about HIM you see.)

Then...mistake #1...I let him come back home because he PROMISED he'd go to counselling. I'd been asking him to since the previous year -- which happened to be when the PA had just started!!! You see, this is one of the things I've learned. I wasn't fooled after all. My gut was telling me something was terribly wrong, I just didn't have the information to correctly process it.

Anyhow: all hindsight, all pretty interesting in retrospect.

Needless to say, I did not apply to the program in the midst of such a life crisis. I was an emotional wreck and knew that a failure at that point would not be good for me. As it turned out, the rest of the year was terrible so it's a very good thing I didn't apply!

This is why I sat down and thought for about 3 hours one day. What did I want to do? If I waited another year...well that was another year. And I decided: no more putting my life on hold for this man and this relationship. I must be my own focus for a change.

It is helping immensely.

Which is why I cannot encourage you enough to move forward aggressively with your plans for yourself, whatever they may be...a dog (I love them and think they are one of the best things you can do for your emotional health!), a hobby, a work-related effort.

I've reclaimed my life for myself: started bellydancing, kung fu and yoga (each great and different), reaching out to old friends, re-establishing social contacts in order to create a new social circle outside of the current one with my H, making new friends, applying for school, actively seeking new work, getting involved in new projects, etc. I have two more things on my list: I want to volunteer with Big Sisters and start to have a nightlife separate from my H.

Recovery/MLC...don't know anymore which is which. But his effect on me during this time of internal turmoil is negative and he can't explain anything other than guilt. I need to leave him to figure out himself while I get on with my stuff and feeling good about me, with or without him.

Again J, I see that you will be facing these same hurdles in recovery. EVERYTHING you can put in place now will be there as a support when you need it.

If it's a dog, then get it! Outdoor activity, unbelievable love, quiet companionship...all such a huge comfort.

Keep up that artwork although a more vigorous, less solitary pursuit would also be a good idea.

Which reminds me, I never did post my reply to you. Ummmm: the media I was in was newspapers and radio, then communications flak, then freelancer, then consultant. I make a healthy income now in the HR field because I am good at what I do but also because I do well in conflict situations! Funny huh? I do direct faciliation and training, but the field itself is rife with conflict...people feel strongly about their paychecks and the work I do is in classification -- determines their pay.

The reason I wanted to add conflict resolution to my bag of tricks is because it is a growth field in HR, and a portable skill. Right now, I am forced to remain where I am because of my client base. Conflict resolution is a portable skill (conflict exists everywhere, in every country, in every language!).

And I am sick of working in front of the computer. I'd rather incorporate an ongoing people component to my work. I love working with people.

Off my soapbox and back into the trenches. My elbows get sore I am writing so much at this time of year...sucks actually!

J, hang in there bud. Free: hope you are feeling better these days...I keep forgetting to ask...awed

Hi free...we were posting at the same time which I saw when my post came up on screen...so I've just popped back in to say...perkier is a word! And you're right...maybe spring is coming??? Nah, it really is all the other stuff I mentioned...

Domestic engineer! I could get you to teach me a thing or two for sure...my domestics are falling apart about now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have many interest so I'm working in the area of assessing my aptitudes that would benefit me best toward a particular field.
<hr /></blockquote>Good for you...let us know what you come up with.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> .

To clarify starting over, I guess I mean taking the time to actually date again, learning to talk and communicate with each (something that is very minited between us), learning not to lean toward each other selfishly. <hr /></blockquote>How's he feel about it? Most guys don't seem that interested in the R, you know? It's more "our" thing.

But you never know until you try!

Have you read the book I recommended yet? Checked it out? It may help you want to be with your H more than you did. To appreciate what it was that drew you to him initially.

Have a great weekend. I kind of remember those things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...not this one though...lots of work and popping into here to take a quick writing break...not that I'm not writing right at this moment, but it is not technical writing...I need a breather for my brain every once in a while...awed

Hi awed and J

You guys I just made this long post here and the system wouldn't take it. So I'm starting over.
How are you 2 dong and how was your weekend?

J, how's the map coming along? I've done that forget to pay a bill thing too. Felt like I was in the twilight zone. I know you were having a tough time but it seemed to be getting better. Hope to hear from you.

awed thanks for your post. Yes the "what ifs' had been holding me back. WHile I don't want to focus on them I recognize that my H needs to show me he is a different person.

I can't seem to come at him directly and tell him this so I'm having to go the long way around to get at him. So I'm doing that. I'm not putting my life on hold. I am definitely moving ahead and I hope he realizes this.

You guys I had a bright, sunshine, Southern girl weekend. I love the sun. Speaking of that I felt much better this weekend than I have in some time.

My H, my little guy ( my son) and I had a nice time also. H & I had a few close moments. We've been away from each other for a while so we came back togethr this weekend. I think the seperation was a nice breather. I was getting to where I didn't want to be around him.

The flashbacks were causing me to want vengeance. But some time way helped.

awed you gave a comment that I know you meant no personal harm to me by noting it. But Oh, it rubbed me the wrong way. So I had to deal with why I felt so angry about it. Here it is:

"Most guys don't seem that interested in the R, you know? It's more "our" thing."

I identify with this comment because I feel that my H doesn't seem to need this, or let's say he wants it but is somewhat short at giving it. Which takes points and defintiely love deposits away from him when he comes to me and wants SF but doesn't want intimacy and R. I can't deal with that. I expressed this to him and it was like talking to a 1 year old.

Well the thing is that for me I feel that it is a part of building a healthy R. SF isn't everything in the world. When you don't want it there has to be something in the M that holds the 2 of you together. Otherwise someone else always has to sacrifice. That person usually being me.

I see R as intimacy. Learning to understand each other, feeling for each other, caring. For my H he understands this at its most basic element. But he doesn't understand that it is in the htings that you say and do and how you treat a person. I mean with giving compliments and little kisses and cuddle time and things like that. If he doesn't see the need for these things then there is no difference between me and the common "lady of the evening" except I don't charge for it. Perhaps I should.

I have fears of being taken for granted and giving a man the upper hand over me. So as of now we are at a standstill when it comes to SF. I feel that it has to be at my own terms and I have to control when and how it happens. Sometimes I feel that I have to make myself inacessible so that I'm not taken for granted.

This is why I felt that maybe we should seperate and start over so that I could lay down ground rules for what I expect. Before when I was a part of SF I felt I gave myself willingly and he still overlooked me for the OW. Now he sees it as me rejecting him but he fails to see that he hurt me and used me when he had the chance to show me he loved me but he chose her.

So now I don't know. I feel we definitely need R and intimacy. If I have to face a life of going without it then I think that being single and fancy free is much more appealing than letting someone take you for granted.

But awed maybe I've misunderstanding him and maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment. Please help I'm open to listening/reading.

Have a good day and take care guys.

[ March 08, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

just realized there was post from Awed I never read.

I hear you about regret. completely.

This weekend..
Got to do some miniature painting, worked on the map/mural, went to church
Met a friends fiancee and had a grueling 30 mile bike ride w/ W and a friend. So yeah, I suppose we had a good weekend. Still some sadness mostly from W, lots of talking, which is good.

Didn't get to do some important stuff at home unfortunately. I need to start making detailed plans for the weekends so that we don't overcomit ourselves.

OH, Dr. put me on lexapro <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Most days I don't think I need it but I can't put work at further risk for pride's sake

Awed,

Sounds like a great degree. Looking at your posts here, I can see how you would excel at it.

I won't be getting a dog yet. Not until we both agree to it. At least for now W would have to deal with it most of the time since she is at home. Plus there's the cat issue.

You are really keeping yourself active. How is Kung-Fu? The only thing I miss about Dallas is the kung-fu school I attended for 6 months.

I read and reread your post about not putting life on hold for someone else and one thing I just could not shake. It seemed to me that you are preparing for the end of your M. I think that may be part of the reason why I cannot seem to put all my effort into what I want for myself, because what I most want is the M. I know I need to be ok on my own and prove to myself that I will be fine with or without her. I don't know, putting all of that effort into myself would not leave much time for her. Meeting her EN's are how I can strenghten her love for me, working on myself and my pursuits is how a keep myself sane. Seems like quite a balancing act.

Freetobe,

I think starting over is a good thing. Infact the thought I think crystallizes some of my W's feelings. I will echo Awed's question, how does he feel about it? I think to many people, men especially (myself included) view marriage as an end rather than a beginning. We feel that we achieved the prize and then as a result we neglect the M. So we feel that we need to start over, when in truth we never should have stopped.

I don't think that witholding meeting an EN to have your own EN's met will work. He will feel rejected because, well, you are rejecting him. First its punishment (LB), second it is a subtle DJ, it sends the message, you are not good enough and I will not share myself with you. I do understand your fears of being taken for granted. The situation as it exists is wrong, I just don't know if this is going to get you what you want.

It seems that you are presenting it as in order for SF to be met he must meet Affection. Can you separate affection from SF in your conversations? What I mean is to say to him "in order to feel loved and cherished by you I need this type of affection. Incidentaly it will improve SF." But not in my clumsy words. Anyway just my clumsy male perspective.

Well you take care as well,

J

I'm feeling pretty good today. As opposed to yesterday evening, ugh. I've been doing some thinking today and started jotting down somethings. Now that the A is over I'm thinking a lot of where I am myself. Tired, depressed, underconfident. Today I'm thinking of what will get me back on my feet. I figured I would share.

The changes that I am making in my life are for myself. As I recover from the affair I have found things about myself that I need to change. This is for me, not for her.

For her, because I love her, I will make all changes necessary to meet her emotional needs.

I will not take on the responsibility for her pain & suffering. Only she can deal with it. I can support her but she has to take responsibility herself.

I will not allow her emotions to control mine. I will be responsive but I will not own them.

I will not allow her to tell me what is best for me.

I will expect my emotional needs to be met. Having them not met will not result in ignoring her needs or LBs, however, this will result is diminished love for her.

I will pratice radical honesty

I will always strive to agree on all decisions, even when it is difficult

I will make good use of our time together.

J.

I hope you are both doing well.

Hi J and awed.

I made a post in here earlier or so I thought. Feeling a little twilight zony that it isn't showing here. Oh well.

(Quotes by J in bold)

"Now that the A is over I'm thinking a lot of where I am myself. Tired, depressed, underconfident. Today I'm thinking of what will get me back on my feet. I figured I would share."

Oh boy do I identify with this one. Felt this way a great deal. I think I felt it while the A was going on but couldn't allow myself to slow down enough until after the A. Now I'm trying to repair myself in the process of dealing with
the M.

"For her, because I love her, I will make all changes necessary to meet her emotional needs."

That really sounds great. How willing does W seem to allow you to do so?

BTW, you and I are in opposite positions. This is exactly what I'd like my H to do for me. Granted some of my ENs are higher on the ladder than others, I guess I wish that he would be more attentive. Because the OW did this for him, somehow I think he would like for me to pursue him as she did. That seemed to appeal to him. But I would like for both of us to pursue each other. I think this is going to be the hard part.

"I will not take on the responsibility for her pain & suffering. "

It sounds like you are setting boundaries here. Have you actually told her what you've posted here? If so, gosh how courageous and how is she responding?

As for myself, I appreciate your clumsy post from a male's perspective. I weighed your comment about SF. After looking at it I thought that maybe I came off as if I was using my body as leverage to get what I want. That really does sound petty and shallow.

Maybe I came off this way, but my concern is much deeper than holding SF over my mate's head so that I can be satisfied.

At this point I realize that a fundamental block of intimacy, not just affection but a relationship of closeness built on friendship, and caring for one another and feeling for one another is missing between us. Sometimes it is like to me, two strangers being together. We didn't invest in building this in the R in the beginning. While we can't do anything to change the past, I really would like for us to develop intimacy in our future. This is the only way that I feel we can make this R last.

I don't see how people got married and stayed that way for 50 years without having intimacy.
I've talked to older people who've done this amazing feat and the one thing that they seem to tell me in that they got to know each other and love each other unconditionally. They even knew each other like the back their hand. Maybe I read too much into that, but to me it takes intimacy and R to do this.

Anyway so much for that, my H and I are getting along good. For now we are stable, which makes both of us content.

Well take care and have a good one.

Hi guys,

popping in for a bit...wish I could participate more in this thread because it is great to discuss, talk about other stuff, reflect, vent, etc! Dang my life is too busy...why do I have to work anyhow? Where's my winning lottery number??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> jus kidding...don't play lotteries...

J: will come back after I get some more work done but quickly speaking -- I am trying to save you from some of my mistakes through direct suggestions...to give you the chance to see through someone else's eyes that you've gotten to "know" rather than just some anonymous (but excellent) advice from another poster...

do you understand what I'm getting at? I've BEEN there and DONE that! Thought I was following advice while making mistakes that others had warned me about...now I can look back and see these mistakes and pick myself up and try again...

I've mentioned before, we are on similar paths although quite different situations...we truly need to tread carefully...yes, I am preparing for the end of my M and so should you, so should free...NO that does not mean giving up or having a negative attitude or anything else negative...it means you ACCEPT that your M might end, despite your best efforts, despite what you want...it is not in your control...you NEED to move past your fear in order to do what you need to do...detach in love from your W, emotionally detach from the pain and frustration of her problems, without emotionally withdrawing from her!

think about this and if you have a chance to respond, then please do so...I will come back with more specifics if I can today...I do have specifics for you, not just these vague generalities <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

And by the way, I thought your list was excellent...

free: I have some thoughts for you too...I agree with J...do not use SF as a weapon...please free, get that book or at least read it and see where I am coming from...

J backed up my original posting which seemed to hit a nerve with you...by not "into" it I mean exactly that...what J said...sure it may be "wrong" but we are not here to set right and wrong...just to engage in a loving relationship with another person...it is THEIR choice to engage or not with us...once we accept this enormously difficult concept -- no one HAS to do anything -- then we can move in the direction of how best to I engage with my S?

the book talks about this at length...by "granting" them (and yourself) freedom, they choose to do the stuff with you that is important to you...

this is clumsy, writing in haste without examples for you to see exactly what I am getting at <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...

look...it is all a matter of perspective...you may feel your H "must" do certain things but I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is absolutely NOTHING he must do...all I am trying to get you to see is reality...this is FACT...accept it, embrace it and let go...then figure out how to get the stuff YOU want, without coercion, threat, "force", manipulation...through honesty, respect, compassion and love...

perhaps all society is taught dysfunctional love...we see screaming, yelling, making demands as normal to M life...we see it everywhere on the tv and in movies...after the romance, as J says, sit back and ignore the M and "abuse" each other rather than carry on a courtship for life...

every M has conflict...your M is defined by how you deal with it...

we're just some normal average flawed people trying to learn some new life skills in the heart of a very painful confusing time...it is always hard to re-learn any habit...

for a short post this is my usual ramble through the old thought processes...but as I say, I am feeling so much better and stronger that I KNOW this stuff will help you guys too...and believe it or not, you are your own worst enemies right now unless you can accept and let go...change the expectations and goals...

hmmmm...I wonder how much this post is going to piss you off or simply confuse you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...hopefully it will spark off some debate or reflection! awed

oh and J, thank you for your very kind words <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...I've applied my professional skills here but I sure do like working on M issues...I feel quite passionate about it now!

I am keeping my fingers crossed but it's hard you know? To hope and not worry about being crushed if I don't get in...kind of like M efforts right now...don't know if the work and hope will "pay off" or not...but I've done the best I can do...

actually (here comes a bit of boasting because ego strokes are a good thing you know!), one of my referees left me a voice mail message on the weekend...long story but you have to get two academic referee reports and both of mine are hard to contact and far away geographically...

anyhow, the rest of the app was already submitted...I had wanted her input to my app because the program is at her university and I thought she'd have good insight as to whether or not I'd hit the right "note"...

sadly, because of comm problems, I had to submit the app without her input...so in a way, I didn't want to hear and hadn't asked her opinion (chicken!)...I figured if it was negative, it was too late anyhow...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> joy joy joy...without my asking, she called to say it was superb and daringly honest, and she put those quotes right in her referee report!...she said I was a shoe-in because it was such a strong letter (she's a published writer so her impressions mean a great deal)...she doesn't KNOW of course because it is in a different dept but it felt GREAT! I did my best and that is what counts...

this external validation is exactly what I am talking about to you two...putting your eggs in several baskets may FEEL wrong but is the RIGHT thing to do...focus outside, rejoice in accomplishments, successes, beauty, joy...be happy YOURSELF...with yourself...by yourself...awed

Hi J and awed 18

Hey you guys I thought you were like my helpers.

Hast the lady of wisdom and the gentleman of kind words turned an eye of discernment away from your handmaiden? Dost though, with a forward eye of compassion bare bias toward the one who dare not surface in a marriage builders forum or MC or anything else as a gesture of marital resolve?

Horrible Shakesperean, but I wanted to sound funny or say something kind of goofy in an effort to curtail my upset. Also I wanted to ask how come it seems that you guys are seeming to say that how I feel doesn't matter but how my H feels is more important?

I'm sure you guys aren't taking sides, but I just really feel like I'm not being heard. I can't get my point across to my H and I guess I have 2 voters against my plan. Which to me, again isn't about trying to force my H to do anything. At the same time I don't want to be forced to do anything either.

It would be perfect to me if my H and I could just talk this matter over and make some compromises but right now this doesn't seem to be an option. Maybe it seems that I'm trying to reject my H but I'm not. We get along good in other areas of life and for now this is fine for me. So I just accept that this is the case for now. We will both have to come to terms with this M one way or another.

Anyway as I posted to you guys I will be posting more about other areas of my life. Discussing this area just seems more headache than I can deal with. Some good things are happening and I'm happy about them. I will go back and look at both your post because maybe I'm missing something.

Have a good one.

freetobe,

hang in there, I don't have time to post now since work is having to take the highest priority in life but I will later.

Real quick, I did not mean to imply that you were being petty or shallow regarding SF. Your frustration over intimacy is legitimate. My only concern is that that frustration could lead to actions that would only worsen the situation.

I think starting over is a great idea but your H needs to be on board. So have you talked to him about it and what does he think? Look into the book that Awed recommended, if he resists having to make changes then the book may really help since that's what it is for.

Please take care,

J

freetobe,

You do either plan A or plan B ... nothing in between. If you want to pull ENs ... pull it all and NC (aka. Plan B). Otherwise your action will be considered as "not caring" and H will use it as an excuse for his action.

-rh-

J, Hi. I'm hanging in here. I was just feeling some disappointment. I know that maybe I'm not seeing everything as I ought to. So I'm going back to do some looking over things. I really don't want to invite more problems into the situation. I think I need to see an IC also. And I probably need to read the book awed suggested.

Anyway thank you both for your thoughts that have helped. Maybe I'm being a baby about this. I question that sometimes. I don't know.

Anyway what is happening with you? How is W also?

free: hon, I'm right here...let's talk okay? Don't go away...let's talk right now...takes so long to log in and post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ...wish I had faster technology...

reply!!! Are you still here? I want to talk this out with you right now...awed

I'm here awed but I don't know if you are still out here.

[ March 11, 2004, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm sure you guys aren't taking sides, but I just really feel like I'm not being heard. <hr /></blockquote>don’t feel like that!!! We care immensely about you which is why we are saying what we are saying.

Do you want to hear that it is not fair? That you are right and your H is wrong? Sure we can feel that way but it does no good.

If that's what you want to hear though, then say so!!! Say I want to hear that this sucks...cause it sure does...MB is tough love because we are trying to help each other in the best way we can...to call each other on mistakes...and mistaken intentions...made in the best possible reason given that we have NO distance from our own emotions...

I see you headed for more heartbreak...that is why I am questionning you...I went for a walk today and was thinking about you...the book I suggested was for good reason...it helps you to change your perspective...and it gives you a good series of exercises that will help you determine if you want to remain in your M after giving it your best shot...

I hear your frustration loud and clear...if I had it in my power to boot your H (or J's W) up the backside, I would! But I don't and neither do you...no one does...you could marshall every person he's ever respected to tell him that you are right and he might still choose to give them the raspberry...

Here's the deal: you are responsible for YOU and your choices...so much of what we do is about perspective...

let me give you an example...someone here was upset...her H left the house and took too long...she freaked...he's calling OW!!! He arrives home with flowers and wine and all kinds of stuff...

perspective is going to drive our actions...this is a given...a fact...if we take charge of our perspective, take control over it, make it work to our advantage, then we will succeed...

doesn't mean we'll get what we want...it means we'll be in control of ourselves, our lives, our happiness...this is true recovery...

I've seen others post about make him/her do this/that...I simply don't believe it myself...sure you might scare them into doing what you want...but that is a short-term solution...resentment can build...secretive behaviour continue etc...

the true secret to recovery is within you...we are our own worst enemies...

redhat, J, myself...we're trying to get you to see that before you set yourself up for another fall...that's all...

having a romantic, intimate M? You bet!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My goal too...but first off, it ain't gonna happen right now...it is simply too soon...secondly, read the book! See some other strategies for figuring out what you want and how to get it...

is this all to esoteric for you? chat back at me here...challenge me all you want...but this is your support network baby...don't go into withdrawal from us now...

we touched a nerve cause you are hurting...let it out here...this is your equivalent of taking a deep breath!

I'm going to run to the store but I'll be back...let me know what's up...I can stick around for another couple of hours...awed

we were cross posting...glad you are still here...

well, before I respond to what you said, how about if you respond to the stuff I said...how's that for selfish of me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, this will let me go to the store and come back and reply again! I've never chatted on-line...this is the closest I've come...something new!

awed

Ok awed thank you so for being willing to chat because I just don't see how you do it between Kung fu and grad applications. but I feel if you are willing inthe midst of your schedule to try to help me, you and J then maybe I'm deafening my ears when they should be open.

One time you posted tp me to try to see things from other perspectives and not to be confined to seeing things one way. Maybe it is actutally time for me to try this. I have tried it some but I guess I still feel that I'm still the one paying.

I've paid for a while now. So my frustration tolerance is rather low. This is tough love that I'm not used to. I'm trying to see it differently. And for the record I'd like to say that My H isn't all bad. He has some good sides.

Thank you again.

Hi awed

Ok I will reply to your post. Which allows you to go to the store. And also allows me to cook lamb I've eaten it but not cooked it before. So I'm looking at a recipe and chatting at the same time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hope it doesn't taste too bad.

Maybe I should start off with things that maybe I don't understand first. BTW, your other post did help me by syaing I was right and H is wrong. Why did I need you to say that? I don't know. I guess because maybe I'm not so right in the way I want to get from point A to Z. But I've put myself at such a point of resistance that I haven't been listenng or reading maybe as much as I should be. So I guess I want to be validated for taking a route that isn't best for us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>I see you headed for more heartbreak...that is why I am questionning you <blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>awed first off, let me make sure I'm not flying right past what you are saying thereby missing your point entirely.

Your concern is in the way I want to handle getting the M back on track right?

Am I setting myself up for heartbreak because I don't want to do SF? Is the concern that my H will feel that I am rejecting him?

That he may possibly go to go another or feel justified in having another A because I'm not meeting his EN?

If this is the case, isn't it possible for us to work with each other without it? I mean both of us are somewhat limited in meeting each other's ENs. But it seems to be ok. We talk and get along ok. Not like I would like. What if this is just the way it has to be right now? Or am I assuming that this won't come back and haunt me or that because my H isn't saying it that he isn't feeling rejection?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>Here's the deal: you are responsible for YOU and your choices...so much of what we do is about perspective...

I know I'm responsible for me. So I'm trying to set boundaries for what I can control but I'm not right in doing so. So how do I get my point across. How do I help my S to understand me?

What as it pertains to my perspective is wrong if all I want is for us to be closer not for me to hurt him but for us both to grow closer?

I understand what you were saying about the lady and her H. A few times I've had those suspicions as she had. But I try not to act in them because I know they may be more of DJ than anything. On the other hand if my H should be up to something how do I protect myself?

I guess from my perspective I am trying to concentrate at other aspects also. Like how I talk to my H in our everyday interaction. Making sure I am meeting personal obligations that I have with him and other aspects of M.
I try to focus on treating my H better with respect and trying to let go of anger that would have me on any given day throw an object at him. Also I try to better encourage conversation about other things. So that we are communicating. My thought is that maybe I can focus on the other areas that need to be stregthened and in an around about fashion get to more serious or deeper matters. Especially since it seems diffcult to just talk things out.

awed maybe I'm talking in circles. I'm trying get it out where or what I'm misunderstanding.
Thank you again.

[ March 10, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

J are you out here too. If so, you are welcomed to post your opinion too. Which I know you have already. Also if you are concerned about something I'm here to be a reading eye.

lamb sirloin...smells delicious from here!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ok awed thank you so for being willing to chat because I just don't see how you do it between Kung fu and grad applications. <hr /></blockquote>grad app is in and done...except for the waiting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...and kung fu is only 2 nights a week...plus I do situps and pushups to make me big and strong! I can do those anytime...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> maybe I'm deafening my ears when they should be open.
<hr /></blockquote>do not do this...if something upsets you, look at why that is...usually a sore point means that you really should do some more exploring...sometimes it doesn't mean anything other than you are feeling touchy!

and hey...this is crap...no doubt about it...we've been handed crap on a plate instead of lamb sirloin! no wonder we're so grouchy hmmmm?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />One time you posted tp me to try to see things from other perspectives and not to be confined to seeing things one way. Maybe it is actutally time for me to try this. <hr /></blockquote>gosh...you didn't listen to something I said??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously though, yes, try it...it will literally change your life free...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I have tried it some but I guess I still feel that I'm still the one paying.
<hr /></blockquote>this unfortunately will continue for a long time yet...why are you doing this program? write down your reasons and keep them in mind...

for me? As reparation for the damage I inflicted on someone I love dearly...because someone I love dearly is in trouble and walking away would not feel right to me, would not sit square with my conscience...because I have come to believe with all my heart that I will suffer no matter what I do (staying or leaving)...therefore I choose the path of direct healing AND possible M reconciliation...rather than the "simple" path of walking away and healing in bitterness and anger...

and I am growing and learning immensely during this time...it is my MLC too so perhaps this is only appropriate...I will not be the same...I AM not the same already as the person I was last year...and I know my future shines much much brighter as a result of these changes...it is already happening...

I am doing it for me, because of me...

why are you doing it?

If it is your choice to do so, then accept your choice graciously and lean into it passionately...do not expect results from your H because he makes his own choices...you hope for the changes you are looking for...you cannot force them...

the book I rant on and on about does an excellent job of nailing down perspectives...

here's one I read yesterday somewhere else: everytime you say "I can't..." change it to "I won't..."

I can't stop LBing my H because he makes me so mad...

I can't stop thinking obsessively about my H and what he's up to...

I want to stop thinking about the A but I can't...</li>

We've heard these kinds of statements over and over here at MB...how different is it when we change perspective?

I won't stop LBing my H because he makes me so mad...

I won't stop thinking obsessively about my H and what he's up to...

I want to stop thinking about the A but I won't...</li>

Who's in the driver's seat? What a simple way to change your perspective. To feel in control...and that WILL make you feel better in the long run...people may resist taking control over their own behaviours and emotions (isn't that what we accuse the WS of doing???), but nevertheless free: you are the ONLY one in control...

How do you want to live your life? Feeling resentful towards your H? Or happy with yourself even though you are doing more of the work on your R?

Perspective...give it some thought...it may truly change your life forever...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I've paid for a while now. So my frustration tolerance is rather low. This is tough love that I'm not used to. <hr /></blockquote>the hardest thing...no one would choose this...we have to live the life we are given though...and change the things we can...accept the rest...

I'd like to challenge you to imagine worse...can you? I can...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm trying to see it differently. And for the record I'd like to say that My H isn't all bad. He has some good sides. <hr /></blockquote>how many sides does he have? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> syaing I was right and H is wrong. Why did I need you to say that. I don't know. <hr /></blockquote>free: we are not mind-readers either...if you want affirmation...come here and say it...otherwise you are likely to get constructive criticism...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But I've put myself at such a point of resistance that I haven't been listenng or reading maybe as much as I should be. <hr /></blockquote>good for you...recognizing that YOU put yourself there...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Your concern is in the way I want to handle getting the M back on track right?
<hr /></blockquote>correct

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Am I setting myself up for heartbreak because I don't want to do SF? Is the concern that my H will feel that I am rejecting and go to another or feel justified in having another A because I'm not meeting this EN? <hr /></blockquote>yes of course, but also that you are working against your own goals of a happy M...you won't get there through taking...and of course your taker is screaming right about now...what about ME!@!!!!!!

Read the book free...see if it helps...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If this is the case isn't it possible for us to work with each other without it? <hr /></blockquote>somebody has to lead...if it is an important EN for him, then you need to provide it...read the book...this is a very common problem between men and women...she has some good suggestions...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> because my H isn't saying it that he isn't feeling rejection?
<hr /></blockquote>good observation...he may well not say anything...often men don't...but it doesn't mean that they are not feeling it...and feeling it as rejection which then ties into a whole lot of trouble in the psyche...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So I'm trying to set boundaries for what I can control but I'm not right in doing so. <hr /></blockquote>you are right...this is not about right and wrong...it is about getting what you want...isn't that a good thing?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Ok what as it pertains to my perspective if all I want is for us to be close not for me to hurt him but for us both to grow closer then how is my perspective wrong?
<hr /></blockquote>it is not wrong...it is about the best way to go about it...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I understand what you were saying about the lady and her H. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure you do...what I was trying to demonstrate is that our perspective is what determines how we feel and subsequently how we act...we think we're operating on logic and fact, but it just isn't so...and that is why perspective is key to our emotions and actions...changing our perspective can change our lives...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I know this is true so I try to focus on treating my H better with respect and trying to let go of anger that would have me on any given day throw an object at him. <hr /></blockquote>this is a good thing too!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> SO that we are communicating. I guess trying to meet other ENs because maybe I can go around about to get to what I'm trying to <hr /></blockquote>that's the ticket exactly...you give to get if you know what I mean...and sure, you may decide to quit later on...but you and I know that that time is not now...so work towards what you truly want...instead of letting your taker sabotage all your good efforts to date...

hope this helps...awed

[ March 11, 2004, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]

Ok you've pretty much explained much of my concern and now I do see it is about perspective.

Yes your explanation helps a great deal.
Now I guess I just have to gear up for taking more from H and giving more and so on. There are some lines that I'm not clear about so I'm going to go back over the post.

It isn't because you didn't post them clearly but because I still have my own preconceived notions that limit my ability to accept in new ideas. So gotta clear out my thoughts first then review yours.

Anyway back to the drawing board as they put it. Oh you caught that part where I admitted that I didn't listened to somethng you said? Kinda hoped you flew past that line. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Nothing gets past you. BTW, I managed to cook the lamb without sickening anyone. The recipe came out pretty good. Tasty. Have a good one. Thank you again.

[ March 10, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Freetobe,

Yeah I'm out here and I would but I'm very busy, group of friends is coming over and W is on a cleaning frenzy so I need to help out.

If I have time I'll post later.

Take Care,

J.

free: glad to hear the lamb turned out swell! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I'll check back in tonight and then again tomorrow...hugs to you bud...awed

J: hope all went well last night!

Hi J-Hi awed18

How are you guys? I'm doing ok. Things are looking up, but I am still taking it slowly working on perspective.

Have a good weekend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Had a pretty good weekend.

Fri we went out had a nice date.

Sat cut and laid out tile for a small bar area.

Sun church, ran errands. She skipped on a bike ride we had planned w/ friends. I knew I should have still gone myself but decided it would be better if I stayed and finished up some more things around the house. Instead of riding I finished up the tile cuts, finished penciling the mural and did some miniature painting. Sun was a little more difficult because she was feeling down most of the day but would not talk about it. I tried not to let it get to me w/ partial success. There were some moments of resent but I did finally realize that I was focusing on the negative rather than looking for the positive.

How are you all?

Awed, I understand how hard it is to wait to find out about admissions. W is on pins and needles, she should find out this month. I really really hope she gets in. If she does not I dread what life will be like. I would be shocked if she was not admitted but who knows what other curve ball life will throw us.

Oh yeah, we had a MC app on thurs if I have time I will post what I can remember of it.

This will probably read a little "journally."

A lot was talked about at MC. What I have walked away with is a re affirmation that there are some very basic trust issues in our relationship. It affects how we view each other and how we communincate (or don't) w/ each other.

On my end, her history of depression, violent temper and DJs (as well as behavior that could be considered emotionally abusive) creates an unsafe environment for me to speak openly particularly when something that is important to me is in conflict with her goals or ideals.

Secondly there is the A. It is not that I think she will have another A or that she will contact OM. Even though her computer is locked to me this is not my fear. My fear is that in the past she has responded with some serious independent behavior when she is unhappy, often blaming me or the M and acting out against it. This has included verbal threats or plans of leaving. The EA was the worst of these. I do not trust her to react to problems in life in a way that actively takes me into consideration.

These issues are partially my responsibility. I say this because some of it is perception. I am seeing the history of behavior rather than focusing on the changes that are taking place. SHifting my perspective will help until the changes are sustained long enough to create a real feeling of trust. This is an uphill battle because when she exhibits past negative behaviors it erodes the little progress made recently.

On her end, she has very real trust issues. What it comes down to is that she does not trust people that can get close to her. This of course, includes me. There are reasons for this which, in my opinion, are made more severe by depression. Her unwillingness to trust feeds her loneliness and depression. As far as our M goes she does not believe that I will defend her, or that I have her aspirations and well being in mind. She blames our M for her career problems and unhappiness. These are issues I cannot take ownership off I can only offer to support a solution whole heartedly. I offer all of my support and I will do what she needs from me to feel safe enough to trust but the solution to how she chooses to see the problem will have to come from her.

Her dropping out of the bike ride on Sunday because she felt down was yet another reminder of how depression affects our relationship. I wish that her idea that her emotions should not affect me was true. It was another reminder of how at times she is not capable of meeting ENs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Well I knew when we got married that depression would always play a part in our lives but I always thought it would get better. I never thought she would drop treatment. I guess the real problem I have is that she would go back into treatment if it affected her work or school but she won't if it affects our M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Freetobe, after all of the discussion last week I am wondering how you are doing, drop a note if you can.

J.

Hi J. Yes I'm doing ok. I've been mostly reading your post but I hadn't replied.

We resumed SF but got into a bit of a stinker this weekend. Anyway, seems we are working past this, but still it is diffcult to know where things are going from this point.

I'm glad to hear that you and W went to MC. I'm
stepping out but will post a little later.

Hey,

How are you all doing?

It's been a strange few days. On the one hand lots of positive things. We are spending time together, talking etc.

On the other, trust continues to haunt me. After our conversation at lunch today I'm feeling kind of angry. I feel like I have been decieved from the start of the M. Again this goes beyond the A. Anyway, today after a couple of DJ's from her I stopped caring about LBs. I hit a point where I needed to vent and started asking her all sorts of questions about what marriage and vows meant to her.

I'm living w/ a woman that is just now learning what commitment is and is not sure if she can do it. That's a hard thing. The silver lining at least is that she says she wants to commit but cannot yet. To her commitment is a feeling to me it is a choice, feelings come and go.

Anyway, enough.

Freetobe, How have you been? what have you been up to, in dealing w/ your H?

take care,

J.

J:

good to hear from you...hope free is around soon because I worry about her when she's not here!

you're going through the stuff man...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm living w/ a woman that is just now learning what commitment is and is not sure if she can do it. That's a hard thing. The silver lining at least is that she says she wants to commit but cannot yet. To her commitment is a feeling to me it is a choice, feelings come and go. <hr /></blockquote>Typical WS stuff...although granted, your W has other issues too...but this is normal in recovery...getting from "feelings" to "choices"...does that help?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> On the other, trust continues to haunt me. After our conversation at lunch today I'm feeling kind of angry. I feel like I have been decieved from the start of the M. Again this goes beyond the A. Anyway, today after a couple of DJ's from her I stopped caring about LBs. I hit a point where I needed to vent and started asking her all sorts of questions about what marriage and vows meant to her. <hr /></blockquote>J: you know how I feel about this...every LB puts your M recovery back...frankly, puts you back too...

if you cannot change...you the strong one in the M...how can she? how are you providing leadership when you cannot change because of your feelings?

I'm not telling you anything I have not gone through myself...

keep going J...keep on working at it...when you breakthrough, the FREEDOM you experience will be worth the incredible pain, effort, etc.

Your taker is screaming to be fed...but you CAN ignore your taker...learn to value and respect your own power over yourself...to feed that power...your power to choose how to respond...to stop giving in to emotions...to choose your response based on what you think will best serve your needs...

sometimes, that is just walking away until you calm down...sometimes, it may be that you choose to react with anger...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Well I knew when we got married that depression would always play a part in our lives but I always thought it would get better. <hr /></blockquote>nothing wrong with having hope! and she may yet choose to deal with things because she may yet come to value your M...don't lose hope at this early stage buddy...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Her unwillingness to trust feeds her loneliness and depression. <hr /></blockquote>yes, and in this she is not unlike a whole lot of other WS...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As far as our M goes she does not believe that I will defend her, or that I have her aspirations and well being in mind. She blames our M for her career problems and unhappiness. <hr /></blockquote>again, typical WS crap...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> These are issues I cannot take ownership off I can only offer to support a solution whole heartedly. I offer all of my support and I will do what she needs from me to feel safe enough to trust but the solution to how she chooses to see the problem will have to come from her. <hr /></blockquote>woo-hoo! awesome perspective...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I say this because some of it is perception. I am seeing the history of behavior rather than focusing on the changes that are taking place. SHifting my perspective will help until the changes are sustained long enough to create a real feeling of trust. This is an uphill battle because when she exhibits past negative behaviors it erodes the little progress made recently. <hr /></blockquote>excellent insight...please have patience...you need so much of it...gosh! have I already mentioned that???

seriously, yes...you need to focus on the positive...ignore the negative...get to the point of letting it wash over you...recovery is LONG...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My fear is that in the past she has responded with some serious independent behavior when she is unhappy, often blaming me or the M and acting out against it. This has included verbal threats or plans of leaving. <hr /></blockquote>this is fascinating...so tell me: how did you respond in the past? what is it exactly that you fear? how will you respond differently in the future?

this could be a real key for you, making you feel far more secure...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ...creates an unsafe environment for me to speak openly particularly when something that is important to me is in conflict with her goals or ideals. <hr /></blockquote>your fear could be a serious factor in this...are you open to discussing this issue here?

don't want to cause any offence...feel free to tell me to back off! This is just one of the most important things I've heard you say...I wonder if you were able to address your fear if you could move beyond it...find your W far less threatening to you...and ergo, be able to balance loving her with detachment from her extensive problems...

my thoughts to you for today...hang in there...hope work is going better! awed

Hi guys. I've been good. I've been away for a little time. So I haven't posted as much as usual.

While I have been at peace personally, as it pertains to my M I am in utter turmoil. NO I haven't purchased the book awed. And because I've not been at home I haven't gotten an MC as of yet either.

I had a dream the other day that made me feel so weird. I haven't felt anything emotional or physical for my H in some time now. However the dream I had (not too much of a dirty one), reignited some feelings for him. I didn't want to feel "good" feelings for him. But if I don't feel good feelings for him, what is there left to salvage.

I tried to think things over, but I can't seem to get through to myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> . It is hard for me to believe that I am the same person that breathed MB concepts for breakfast lunch and dinner. Now it is like I'm an alien.

I seem to feel optimistic a little bit then I'm back at feeling anger and all those other emotions that cause me to not want this R/M.

In my head some times out of the blue I hear the words and the see the things that were done during the A and it haunts me. There is a part of me that says that my H has to pay or make up or make recompense for the things that he has done.

But there in lies another problem, if I went the route of making him pay could he ever really pay enough? Would my heart ever feel healed for the pain? or would I, like some ravenous monster want to repeatedly require that I treat him as harshly as I feel he treated me going on with repayment forever?

Yet I feel like I'm the rock stuck in a hard place, when I want to let him off the hook and just let it go, flasbacks enter my mind, (which is quite often), I'm back at being stuck in an angry stupor.

I know what I'm saying doesn't make sense. I'm in it and can't seem to reason it out, but it is just where I am for the moment. Yet I know someting has to change lest I breed more feelings of hatred that permeate from my H and I to our little one.

This is what has been going on with e for the past few days. But I'm not at the end of my rope, just dangling in confusion somewhere in a middle knot. I'm not avoiding MB. I've just been away and not having as much access to a PC.

I hope to post more soon. This is a vent for now.

[ March 25, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

I would like tob believe that what she is telling me is typical WS speak. If I could then it would be easier to deal with. It seems that her "other issues" are really the heart of the matter. I am beginning to believe that those issues contributed to the EA as much as not meeting ENs. Her feelings about marriage being inhumane, stem from her career being jolted by our relocation to Colorado. Well, and the end of the EA as well. Once the negative effect of our move was felt she didn't look for a solution within the M she looked to get out. The EA was the worst she did, but not the first attack on our M. I can't pretend that these things don't hurt. Like I said, looking back I feel like I was decieved on our wedding day.

I'm trying to be as understanding as I can because I understand her past.

Understand I am venting this here because I can't vent it anywhere else. Things are actually moving ok between us. I am trying to focus on those but I can't neglect these feelings, I have to vent them and address them so that they do not become all consuming.

I'm open to discussing anything here.

How did I respond in the past?... First w/ shock and then I did my best to address the issue. I was not until much later that I realized how wrong those threats were. In the future? I will still address the issues that make her unhappy provided they are not selfish demands. As far as the threats go I would call her on it. I don't deserve that kind of treatment.

As far as fear goes, its like this... In order for truly honest communication an understanding environment needs to exist. She has a long history of LBing. What we have had in the past has been a poisonous judgemental, threatening environment. I understand my part in this, I contributed my share of selfish judgement an in the end it happened because I let it happen. Like freetobe said, we teach others how to treat us. I've been on the recieving end of her inability to control her anger for too long. It has changed, it has gotten better but it takes maintained change to rebuild trust and while she was in the fog of the A it got really bad sometimes.

Maybe its time for the LB questionaire..

There are good things going on. We are talking much more than we used to and we are listening more than we used to. We enjoy each others company, we find each other attractive, she has been trying to help with domestics more, We keep on working on turning our new house into a home and we talk about a shared future.

A while back, I was looking at the chaos in our bedroom and suggested that for our anniversary we put resources into getting the bedroom we want. She loved the idea but moved up the schedule to "by our anniversary." We are enjoying planning out a peaceful space for us.

Too often our takers come out and we lose sight of the good things, so thanks for the smack upside the head.

J.

HI J,
I'm venting, you're venting. Perhaps it is the venting time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ". It seems that her "other issues" are really the heart of the matter. I am beginning to believe that those issues contributed to the EA as much as not meeting ENs." <hr /></blockquote>When I read this portion of this post it reminded me of something concerning A. As it pertains to reasons Infidelity begins, if I remember correctly in some situations the OP fills a part or role in the WS life that they themselves haven't learned to fill.

Perhaps your W at the time didn't have the maturity or maybe something else to look inside herself for an answer as she was discontent with the relocation and career change. So instead she chose to end your M.

Maybe instead, of addressing her own inadequacies she chose to go the path that brought her some degree of pleasure but a great deal of pain to both of your lives.

I often get stuck at judging my S for not doing what he should've to make our R work instead of looking at OW. For me, I am able now (as I know you are as well with your W) to see the inadequacies that he had that caused him to make the decision that he did. However it still doesn't make me it any easier for me to forgive him or to get past the anger about it. And furthermore, I wonder if he will now do what he needs to do to not make this kind of mistake again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I can't pretend that these things don't hurt.<hr /></blockquote>Tell me about it. I try to be sympathetic with why he made the choices he did by saying that he made a mistake (though a rather long enduring one). Like you wondering about the deception even at your wedding day, I wonder if my S really ever wanted what ( I thought we had). Being that he was lying about the A from the beginning of R.

In an effort to understand him I try to accept the fact that humans make mistakes and have since the beginning of time. Perhaps I could've even made the same mistake (as of course I actually did before). But it just doesn't seem to get him off the hook with me.

So this is where I'm stuck at right now. To be honest I wonder if a lot of it is just my ego flaring up. I wonder if my ego is wanting to seek out vindication.

I have considered what it might be like to do the exact same thing to my S. But I recall in reading my child Psychology books that you don't stop a child from biting by biting the child back. Though I can definitely see the fun in it, I think that the principle in Child Psychology probably works the same for adults. Maybe the situation would become worse.

So how does one win their ego and pride back?
Maybe it just leaves forever.

J for you, what do you feel is the source of hurt or where do you feel that it stems from?
I'm glad to hear that there are some positive things happening between you and W. Maybe the hurt takes time to heal and maybe there is something more you can take from it to help you get past it. I mean really if we look into the future how much of what has happened in the past will have the same hurt and pain in our lives. Especially if we are learning from it all. I'm trying to encourage us both by noting this.

BTW, I purchased the book awed recommended, finally. Felt I had too. I'm not gettting anywhere on my own, wheel spinning is about all I'm doing right now.

Have a good one.

Freetobe,

I will try to reply to your posts later, I just don't have the time I used to.

J.

J
There isn't any urgency for you to reply. I just put the questions in my post out there I guess moreso for thought or to discuss whenever you can.

Anyway, to awed and and you, you guys have a great weekend. I am reading "How one can bring the two of you together". Finally, it is becoming more appealing to let go of the anger inside and seek resolution in my M. From reading it I am finally starting to be able to see the light.

free!!!!! great news to hear...more later...awed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi awed. Hi J. awed, How are you? I'm glad to her from you, too. Hope you are doing well. I hope to hear from you when possible, busy lady.

Today's post is sort of journally.

"Shut de do', keep out de devil"
Hey, have you guys ever heard this song before? It is sang in a like Carribean Island accent. The gist of it is to keep out influences that are negative.

Well I discovered today that my ever thinking mind has been bombarding me with some of those negative influences. After having some time with "How one can bring the two of you together", I felt absolutely upset that this morning negative thoughts were running a mile a minute in my brain.

About what? None other than flaskbacks about hurtful things from in the past. Anyway I was beginning to kick the notion of letting bygones be bygones to the curb when it dawned on me, "My brain is doing the sabotaging my own efforts thing again." So here I am trying to realign and get my head on straight.

At the portion of the book I'm at now she talks about being right. What appeals to me is that she says that even when you are right in the M and your partner is wrong you have no where else to go from that point on. You are right and that is all you are. But what do you do with you rightness?

This appealed to me because I've been right about a lot between my H and myself. However in this position I've found that I ended up being stuck at this point, in righteous indignation and fury. Because while I was right I hadn't thought more deeply about where to take my M or how to get what I wanted.

SO I explored removing the "I'm right" train of thought from the scenario. I realize that being right can obscure your vision in seeing the changes that you may need to make as an individual and in my M to get things on track.

I felt that if I was right I didn't need to change, he needed to. Well this approach hasn't yielded any fruit in my life lately. Figured something had to change. Yes, once again it appears that something is me.

awed thanks for the book recommendation. It is really clearing up my viewpoint.

[ March 27, 2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

free free free…you’ve made my day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I just knew that book would speak to you as it is doing...

YOU are going to be fine…doesn’t mean you’ll be with your H…don’t worry about that right now though…concentrate on YOU…making YOU happy…being happy within yourself…

GO free GO!!!

and I’m serious…if you want someone to do the exercises with, I’m game…I’m up for it…I think I’ve absorbed the concepts but I would have no trouble doing the stuff with you…we could challenge each other on our cloudy thinking! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

keep up the good work...talk to you next week...awed

Hi guys. awed thank you for the offer to help with the exercises. I may take you up on that.

I am glad that you mentioned the part about my H. The book is helping me deal with my own feelings of helplessness and lack of empowerment. So I am trying to keep my focus on this. However many times the thought of what part my H plays and trying to save my M comes to mind. Yet I am working vigilantly to keep focus on me first.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks again.

Hi guys. I'm back to journally posting again.
I am purely on the learning end of amy further therapy as it pertains to my M.

I'm continuing with Susan Page. She is talking about different outlooks that empowers one to act as an individual in saving the M. This is helpful. The book has convinced me to put MC aside for a little while. Instead to try thinking and exploring on a personal basis what I may be able to do to work on the M and also to help myself become a better individual.

I've also been continuing my REBT (rational emotive behavior therapy) which to me compliments what S. Page says in her book. I've come to understand that I was holding in a lot of pent up anger because I felt that my H's betrayal devalued me as a person. To put it bluntly I felt that I was adding up to a pile of *&%^ because of what he did. Also because I stayed around and allowed him to do it.

So I felt he had to make this right. He had to make me feel valued. While that is very nice, lately it hasn't been forthcoming from him. If anything I've been acting more angrily and he has been acting more defensive as a result.

And furthermore, I feel that I would be trying to get him to do something that I know he isn't emotionally mature enough to do. For he himself isn't aware of a personal need to be or feel validated on his part that caused him to need an OW to make him feel validated. While I feel this is a very strong reason why I know it isn't the whole reason why.

We are apart for a while which is so good. I can take this for introspection. Anyway I'm coming to understand that he made the choices that he made based on his own reasons. That doesn't devalue me because I wanted to hang in there and save what I thought was important. So I don't have to constantly seek for him to validate me or make me feel this or that. Really that is up to me. I've gotta be there for me in this and value myself. Though it would be great if he were supportive.

Also I don't have to keep wearing myself down with self-loathing and anger about what he did and the choices that I made to save the R.

Anyway more learning to do. You guys I'm an open ear/eye to read or listen as you have concerns. I hope all is well with you both. Hope to read/hear form you soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

P.S. You know how I talked about the "keep out the negative influences stuff" and a train of thought that sabotages? Well, I caught myself doing this and made like a diagram in my head of it. In my mind a flashback would appear.-> Then subsequently-> I would sit there going, "shame on him, that was horrible, how could he have done that".-> Then after a few more of those the next thing I found myself saying was, "And why didn't you go out and show him that you could do the same thing he did?"-> Then I began to be right back at that same point in the anger and upset all over again.

So now I'm replacing those thoughts. Interesting process.

[ March 30, 2004, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

J how are you? Are you ok? How's it been going?

Busy busy busy. Spent most of the weekend planning out our new bedroom. I pretty much took control of the furniture part project which she loved. Things are ok, At our last therapy session we talked more about our bad communication and what has contributed to it. We got to talking about what essentially is DJ's and how it affects our M and her personal relationships. The MC also recommended a book to her to learn about committment and she agreed to read it. She is also exploring the source of her loneliness.

W got a temp job which is good. Since its clerical/data entry work she's not too thrilled about it but she's happy for the small extra income that will cover her tuition should she get accepted into school. And its something to do rather than being trapped at home.

I'm hanging in there, trying to keep myself going at work and at home. Certainly all of the activity is helping keep things positive.

Just the fact that we are paying attention to each others is making a big difference. I am very grateful that she is making an effort.

I'm trying to not get to emotionally enwrapped in it. I'm happy that we are working on our home together as is she and I am pursuing my own activities as well while trying to not threaten the amount of time we spend together.

Your last post was very encouraging. I'm hope that it continues to help. I remember when I frist found MB, it was this godsend and it gave me a lot of hope that W and I could really resolve the A and issues in the M. It was very different and difficult to actually walk the path. I'm glad to see you are walking the path again.

J.

[ March 30, 2004, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: jgnc ]

free: sounds like you are doing much better! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If anything I've been acting more angrily and he has been acting more defensive as a result. <hr /></blockquote>...proving Page's point that any change you make will affect your S and change their behaviour...cause and effect...

glad to hear that things are progressing for you...are you guys separated though? Or just spending more time apart?

J: good to hear the news on your front too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keeping busy is such an excellent tonic...

awed

W got into grad school.

Happy!Happy!Joy!Joy!

Hi J.

Hip, Hip Hooray!!!! for the MRS. Glad to hear the news. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

awed and J Thank you for your encouragement.

J, Glad to hear that MC is helping you both and that my last post was encouraging. I identify in some areas with your wife. I think that many times personal issues have to be resolved, which can sometime clouds one's judgement. I think it is wonderful that she has a willing and supportive partner in you to be there for her.

As for me, a lot of the work in my M will have to be done singularly by me. None-the-less, I am at the task of figuring out what personal issues are in my way. My hope is to deal with things that cause me to blame my H or expect so much of him when the answers I'm expecting are from within. Anyway not that he is a saint. But that is another issue another post.

I know keeping busy is important. I'm doing so as well.

awed, My H and I are not seperated. Just apart for a time. We'll be back together soon. Hopefully I'll be able to show a different side when we are together again.

ok, I need a little help.

Although we were both exhausted last night was a good night. As soon as I found out her good news I organized as many friends as I could find and put together a congratulatory dinner. When we got home we didn't spend much time together because of how tired she was.

Today when I got into work I noticed that she was logged in to her chat program. She is never logged in. If she is she is in "ghost mode" so that OM cannot know she is logged in but stillchat w/ me at work. Since she is working now we don't chat during the day so no need for her to be logged in. But today I see her logged in. She had to have logged in last night. The are only 2 persons she chatted with regularly, me and OM. If I go home and check the logs and find nothing... well it doesn't mean anything since in the past she did erase those logs.

I could be making too much out of this, I did have to reboot her computer last night and it could have logged her in automatically.

On the other hand she could just not have been able to resist telling OM her good news. Afterall she decided to pursue this degree largely in part to OM's encouragement.

J

I'm not quite sure how to repsond. Typically, one could think the worse, not that you are, but there is the possibilty that she was chatting with OM.

Either way, now is a time to be calm cool and collected, or at least as calm as you can be regardless. You guys have made good strides so you don't want to blow your lid and forget about all the has transpired. At the same time you don't want to upset yourself either Whether she talked to him or not.

But thinking about it rationally, if she has called the OM to inform him of the good news, then what does that mean to you? Ultimately it doesn't have to be the end of the world or an end to what has happened between the two of you. Though it might be upsetting for you (or not) you will be ok.

If she has called him does it have to mean a setback? Well it definitely isn't the ideal, but it doesn't have to mean a set back either. It doesn't have to mean that she doesn't really take seriously what is happening between you. SO basically your main point will be to keep focus then decide what you would like to do next.

If it is that the PC automatically logged on then you'd feel weird if you got upset. If it is that she talked to OM, than perahps once you've calmed down you can find a way to calmly and considerately inquire of her about it. And it could be that if she has, that she may tell you first. All in all, it is your party (so to speak), your choice how to react from here. But you want to at your best. SO if your are becoming slightly upset or anxious, try to figure out why but not allow those feeligns to steal a good oppurtunity for calm, dialog.

If you aren't upset but concerned then try to again make a good oppurtunity of dialog. Oh yeah you may seem a little suspicious and untrusting if you ask her about it. But explain that you are asking her because you are still a little shaky and just want to be secure. Or perhaps you may choose not to do anything at this point. Your ball, your corner. Hope this helped and made sense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm rooting for you J.

[ April 01, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Freetobe,

Thanks for the perspective. As I expected there is nothing to indicate contact and it could have easily just been the result of the reboot. I think I will just let it go.

Actually..

During last MC we came to see that part of our problems communicating was my not trusting that she would stay calm and not LB if I brought up something sensitive and therefore have kept a lot to myself so maybe I should bring it up and talk through my feelings rather than have a miniscule nagging doubt.

J.

J: first-off...awesome news!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Please pass along my sincere congrats to your W...

now down to work: please talk to your W!!! (if you haven't already done so...)

here’s what I do...I wait...I wait several days until I KNOW I can handle myself...I don’t just mean not yelling (I can do that all the time now) but I mean really HANDLE myself...

first I tell myself what the worst news could be and then I practice my answers...I identify and eliminate any DJs inherent in or underlying my answers...then I find ways to express my FEELINGS, and only my feelings...

once I’ve done that, then I am ready to confront...I don’t even like that word...to discuss ...

don’t accuse, that’s tricky but important...she may well get defensive (which does not necessarily mean she’s guilty!) in which case you calmly explain why you thought she might be in contact with OM...what you observed and how that made you feel...

if possible, you should also validate her feelings too...

for example, if she says: you are always watching me, every move I make, I feel trapped! You could say something like: I’m sorry to hear it feels that way...it must be tough...

if she’s open to it (ie. not sensitive that you are "educating" her), you can go on to add: every good marriage has accountability at its core...my whereabouts/activities need to be just as open as yours are...this isn’t about punishment, it is one of the measures we are taking to ensure that our marriage is strong and healthy in the future...I want to keep working WITH you so that we can be happy and relaxed with each other in the future...it will feel strange for a while, but as our habits change, we won’t even notice! I love you...

hope some of this helps...

whatever else you do, please don’t ignore your gut...you will “stifle” (remember Edith?) and that is not good for you, for your feelings for your W, and hence for your M...

in addition, you may be right about renewed contact in which case it would be a bad idea to ignore it – bad to avoid confronting your W...she needs help with accountability...you are working as a team...

free: now there’s the free I’ve come to know (a little bit) and respect so highly!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

great advice...you are obviously starting to feel more like your old self again... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

if you have time, perhaps you should consider posting again...I think it helps for others to hear from someone further down the road...but don’t if you can’t handle it, if it harms your recovery in any way...

I don’t find that to be the case for me but lots of other people have posted those feelings...be wary...don’t help others at the expense of yourself and your M...

actually, I remember mentioning this to you in e-mail once...I post "positively" because I think that is helpful...when I am going through a rough time, usually I don’t post but I vent with someone in person or on the phone...

then I read here to gain insight...once I’ve learned something, I try and share that insight with others...

of course, some people “hear” and others don’t...but my point is that perhaps because I post positively, I can’t help but benefit from the posting...it renews my own positive can-do attitude...

I have lots of down times, and down days...those are inevitable...I’m an impatient person though – I want instant gratification! (you can see how recovery is teaching me a LOT about patience!)...so I find the time-delay of the boards too frustrating...I tend to vent with someone in person or on the phone...luckily no one has told me to buzz off yet!

have an awesome weekend you two! keep up all the good work...awed

Hi awed. Glad to hear from you. I know you and J are so busy. Hi J. How are you?

Glad to hear that you confirmed NC with W and OW. How are things going now?

Awed thanks for the compliment. Yes, I am very slow to post to others. A part of my new discovery and recovery is to be slow to comment. I have observed that many times I am a quick study when I'm seeking knowledge but I am slow to apply concepts to my life. SO I feel that I've gotta be more committed to learning and growing first before I make comments. I have put a few little opinion seeking post out here but I'm taking my time before I try to post to others. I want to learn to allow concepts to become fruitful in my life first.

BTW I need perspective from you guys on an issue that set me back a little recently. I saw a friend of my H. As matter of fact one who is very close to him. When I saw him he didn't know that some very important things had trandspired between my H and I. things that you tell your friends. Well this makes me upset and concerned. I'm wondering if my H didn't reveal these things because he isn't happy about what has occured between us. I feel soem hurt that he hasn't reveal these very important thigns to someone that I know he respects. Therefore I wonder is this because he doesn't respect me. I'm open to any perspective that might help. Thanks.

Hi free:

one last comment about posting -- please keep in mind that I am not trying to pressure you to do so!

however, I need to comment on what you just said...you don't have to have the answers for anyone...you can be honest in that you are struggling too...but I believe you have a very good grasp of the importance of controlling your emotional reactions, the price you pay when you don't, how to go about accomplishing this huge task (ie. changing yourself and your perspective)...

this can motivate others to do the same...to understand that it is a long struggle, hard to do, difficult to see or REMEMBER the long-term goal...

to share your experiences with others in a community that is struggling to overcome daily hardship in the name of love and commitment, against significant societal odds...

to articulate the personal growth possible and the blessing this brings -- unlooked-for, unseen at the start -- to your life, for the rest of your life...

the changes in me that so many people see, externally...the incredible strength I feel and can rely on internally...I would not trade these accomplishments for the past, even though it hurt like h*ll to get here...unless I could do so in exchange for a far-distant past that would allow me to re-shape so much of the last few years...and arrive at this same place without the pain and fire (can any personal growth of this depth/magnitude be achieved without such suffering? Many argue NO...but that's another debate altogether!)

OT: I have to tell you that my H interpreted this same remark from me as wanting to change my decision to marry him in the first place <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...not at ALL!!! It would be to know what I know now, to have the skills I have now, to build and maintain a strong M, to treat others with respect and honour despite any horrific treatment they mete out to you...to finally absorb and fully understand that this is MY choice...not a reflection of a doormat (ie. standing up for myself)...this is the true "standing up for myself"...the true embodiment of "two wrongs don't make a right" no matter what the provocation...

anyhow free...enough philosophical rambling from me early in the morning... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

my point is simply this: you have a lot of hard-earned wisdom now that you can share with others...sharing is a gift you can give to others...

Okay, regarding your situation with H: I'll give you some hard-earned advice myself!

Don't assume!!! Your H may be hiding his feelings, he may feel uncomfortable talking with his friend, he may have said things to his friend that he is now mortified by (feel free to chime in here J...guys bury lots of stuff right?)...

**edit** is a communications expert...her writings on the differences between men and women is amazing stuff...anyhow, basically we women share while men have pyramids...which is one of the reasons why men often say they tell women things they would never tell men, while the opposite is often true for women (they tell their close friends more than they tell their SOs).

that is doubly the reason for NO ASSUMPTIONS...you have no idea why he might not have told his friend something...you will make all kinds of gender-specific assumptions in reaching a conclusion...

let me give you a real-life example: my H did not tell a friend something I considered significant...

here's how I handle the situation: I track this, and put it into my "infidelity database" (my head!) for processing along with all the other facts and daily observations...

in other words, this could mean something or it might not mean anything...in combination with other information, it may lead me to a conclusion that I could test, either through talking to my H, or by doing further exploration...

what it does NOT represent is a reason to worry, to be concerned about (in and of itself) or for treating my H any differently than if I did not have this information...

when this same friend subsequently told me that a real breakthrough conversation was described to him as "the same old sh*t", I phoned my mom and vented...she pointed out (as I had already realized by that point!) that this likely meant that it was the "same old sh*t" that H was going through, that he's sick of himself and his actions...

this was the likeliest interpretation...not that he was saying that I was giving him the same old sh*t, or that the breakthrough I felt we'd reached was in any way jeopardized or meant nothing (ie. he was just giving me lip-service)...

this analysis was later proved correct...we did achieve a breakthrough...and he hadn't told his friend, even though that friend would have given him all kinds of positive feedback...

so why didn't he say anything to him??? and why did he describe a critical conversation as the "same old ****"???

who knows!!!!...one thing I've learned is that while my curiosity wants me to ask him, chances are he'll say he doesn't know himself...so I let it go as water under the bridge for now...unless it becomes part of a pattern...in which case I'll deal with it at that point...

important bit: if I had reacted negatively to his lack of sharing info with a close friend, to his tossing-off of a critical discussion...it would have been bad news...likely created disharmony between us, resentment inside me, tension about me monitoring discussions between his friend and himself and me, creating a triangle of communication...already tough enough with just two!!!

does this help?

I see two options:

a) keep an open mind...ask if you can...initiate dialogue between you and your H to prevent resentment from building...be honest...how does it make you feel...just state it and leave it...he doesn't need to respond, he doesn't need to explain...just let him know how you feel...

b) or let it ride...

your choice...

learn yourself best free...if it is going to continue to rub you the wrong way, if you are going to worry it like a dog with a bone...then talk about it and release it instead...

cheerio to you my friend...awed

Hi J! Hope all's well...

It is my experience that men generally don't share w/ other men very much. We are just not socialized that way. If I tell something personal and important to any of my guy friends I will generally get a blank stare in return. I think that confiding something personal implies a sort of closeness that isn't supposed to exist bwtn guys. There is also the fact that men just aren't supposed to care about certain thing so we try to look 'tough'. So generally we keep things bottled up. Of course there are exceptions, some of my geek friends are easier to talk to but I think that geeks are a bit more emotionally aware than most men. I can't really offer much more than Awed already has. The kinds of things that you may share w/ a friend are probably quite different than the kinds of things he would share w/ a friend, even a close friend.

Anyways, the first part of the weekend was pretty good, the second half was rotten. We spent fri and sat night w/ friends. Sat morning I talked to her about what I suspected and she put my mind at ease, she had absolutely no problem talking about it. Later in the day W was feeling pretty down until she went out dancing w/ a group of friends. I was quite happy to encourage her to go out w/out me because she needs to make those connections. I may go out w/ them next time.

Sunday I was in an horrible mood, I was so overwhelmed by the amount of work that needed to be done at home that I started to panic. I was so angry and could not tell you why. She new I was feeling bad and just would not let it go. What I wanted the most was to just hide. All of the emotions felt so alien, like I was not myself. Unfortunately she could not deal w/ my feeling bad and could not let it go. I could have fled but she would have claimed I was punishing her for something. The anti-ds are supposed to be helping with this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

later in the evening when I was calmer W came to talk to me and confessed that she had tried to get a message to OM about her good news. It wasn't through instant messaging like I thought, she had sent him an e.mail message and she does not know if he ever got it. We spent a long time talking about how she felt. I wasn't angry at her. In fact she was surprised that I was not angry. Honestly I was grateful because its the first time that she told me something that she could have easily concealed.

today I'm so tired that I don't really know how I feel. Better I suppose

Hey J,

little breakthroughs huh? she goes up a little, you see some progress...slowly slowly...agonizingly slowly... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

how much needs to be done at the house? is this work you are doing? can you scale back and reduce stress?

and how's your work going these days? you haven't mentioned it much lately so I am hoping it's going well...

as for renewed contact, very NORMAL (not what you want to hear I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) but it is GREAT that she tells you...

hope this helps a bit...you sound very tired and I can relate to that too...remember this: you never know what's just around the corner...often just when you feel the most defeated is when progress is truly made...

hang in there bud...just let things ride as much as possible and focus on the good stuff...it's there you know, in each and every post you make...awed

work is getting better. Actually part of what got me into this mood is that after I had some encouraging news at work, I shared them with her and, well, nothing seems to be enough... it wasn't until 2 days later that she was able to tell me she was happy for me and even then it felt like she was only saying it because she could tell I was down.

I could scale back at home but that means postponing some projects that were pretty important to us. I think I'm trying to hard to please her. Part of the reason these projects exist is because it deposits love units in her bank. But I'm burning myself out doing it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I've been trying to figure out what caused the bad feelings yesterday. Maybe later I'll post a list of events to help sort things out in my head.

Take care,

J.

Hi awed and J

Thank you both for your post that really helped to open up my perspective. I wasn't really dying abot it but I felt upset and I knew I needed to clear my mind or find a way to deal with my concern about it.

awed
What has been happening with you lately?

I understand what you mean about posting to others better. I know that you aren't trying to insist that I do so. I didn't see it that way. I really would like to offer help to someone else if I can. I think you can learn to heal more by helping others as well as reiterate the important lessons to yourself. My concern was my own struggles as you pointed out. But you are right there is nothing wrong with admitting that one is struggling but would like to offer insight if possible. Thank you so much for encouraging me and reaching out awed in ways that always help me try a little more (thought at times I've been a stubborn mule <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Thanks a bunch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh yeah, about my H, thanks again for giving me an other options about how I could handle looking at the situation from my standpoint. Your example and how you chose to handle your situation is sort of like an exercise that can allow me to table dealing with the event until I have a better handle on it (after recording it in my Infidelity database). Then I can go back to it if more situations like it come up.

I believe I can use this to clear my head of upsetting distractions for the time so I can move on before my "get mad at him" switch comes on.
Boy, options and perspective are 2 very important aspects of dealing with any sitution where conflict is involved.

J,

Thank you for also giving me insight from a guy's perspective. It helped me let my H off the hook some. I was close to thinking ill thoughts about him.

Glad to hear work is going good for you.

As it pertains to your W is it possible to find a happy medium that will allow you to make love deposits by completing your projects as well as keep your sanity and focus on other things also? I feel concern for you and hope that you won't get burned out.

I too, am glad that your W came forward about OM. It seemed like a step for her to take in admitting it. Sorry to hear you were in a stink yesterday. Hope that you are able to get a handle on what brought your upset and maybe find a way to watch out for it in the future.

I actually talked to my H about my conversation with his friend. He told me that he had told his friend this information. I don't know if he did or not but I decided to let it slide. I chose not to tell him how it made me feel because I didn't want to upset him.

It is stored in the database however.

Ok ME and Susan Page:

Well she is talking about something that is very, very helpful. She is talking about having good will toward your partner. Gosh, I hadn't felt good will or feelings toward my mate in a long time. But this portion of the chapter really helped me. However it also brought to mind that I have a lot of work to do. I've engulfed myself in tense anger toward my H for so long that now I'm like cleaning up all this ill will that has clogged my mental system.

Her point is that there doesn't have to be cooperation from the both of you to do this. She says that you find a way to appreciate the good in your partner. Find a way to accept the positives in what they may do for you no matter how big or small they are. No matter if they are different than what you would like from your partner or expect from your partner.

Find a way to appreciate even the differences or opposites between you that if you put them together would make a balanced person. Because marriage is about 2 people coming together as one right? Well if you have opposites then once you put them together they make a well rounded balanced person.

Hum! Oh my goodness is this a good one. I was really hating the fact that my H is so different than me. I felt he was an alien or something. However once I looked at it from this standpoint then I thought about characteristics from both of us that compliment our being together.

Use this as a basis for you to independently create an environment conducive to good will. Good will in how you interact with your mate and even think to yourself about your mate.

Anyway, I could go on but I don't want to put the book in this post.

[ April 06, 2004, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Freetobe,

Awsome perspective.

About my recent state. The only one responsible for it is me. I have been burning myself out trying to do way to much. After talking with W I see that it is not necessary. I've postponed one major project to focus on the most important one to us. Otherwise I'm just hurting myself.

The one thing I really do need help with is detaching when she LBs. I am not LBing back but it has been taking a toll. I have been communicating how I feel about this but God is it straining. Eventually neither one of us wants to hear about it.

Anyway, take care.
J.

Hi J.

I understand what you mean about you being responsible for you. You are right. It is all in your hands to a control. So if you feel you are burning yourself out and it is in your powere to control how much you take on, how come you won't lighten the load?

Detaching, when W LBs. I've found that I have problems detaching at times from feelings of the past and hurt of the past. I use this site to help me detach. The exercises are great.

Maybe you can try one when you have time.
Strategies to help move from self-defeat to rational living

To J and awed,

I'll be very busy for the weekend and may not be able to post again before beginning of next week. So if you celebrate Easter, Happy Easter to you and a good Easter blessing too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

free: have an excellent Easter! I was going to pop on here yesterday and ran out of time...I shouldn't be here now either!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Boy, options and perspective are 2 very important aspects of dealing with any sitution where conflict is involved. <hr /></blockquote>excellent observation!!!

That stuff you posted from the book...yippee!! I still say hurray you got it...it is doing for you exactly what I hoped it would...your perspective is your own...reclaim it...don't you just feel a whole lot better??? I know I do...

someday I'll post how I'm doing...suffice to say, we made it through another big crisis...but we ain't out of the woods yet...the wolf is still circling...but you know, I learn new stuff every day...so it can't be all bad huh?

I heard from grad school...they are taking me in for an interview...good news...I still may not make it, but I made the first cut...we'll see...interview in 2 weeks...

spring... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

J: I hope you have a relaxing weekend planned! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> just some fun for a change of pace...or working on creative projects perhaps? hockey??? (are you a hockey fan?)

keep your chin up...detach and remember these are her problems, not yours...say things like "I'm sorry you feel that way"...leave the room if it is feeling abusive...hand up in air: I need to take a break for a while...and go elsewhere to cool off...

have you ever tried apologizing to her? that has worked a treat for me..."sorry H, I didn't realize that would offend you when I _________." he apologizes right back...realizes that he was being mean or critical or whatever...whereas in the past, no matter what I said, he'd keep on going...even silence will let him continue to spew forth...

but apology? disarming technique 101...

actually, it is one I use in work situations all the time...I am often the focus of blame and anger...I apologize, several times if necessary...normally, people will then apologize because they know darn well it is NOT your fault/problem etc...I just finally applied this technique in my M too!

have a great weekend guys...no doubt I'll be back as there are a few folks I'm keeping a close eye on...H and I have no real plans other than casually hanging out...actually, those are usually the best kind of plans <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...awed

Hip Hip hooray <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hip Hip Hooray <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Glad to hear about Grad school interview. Wishing you a sure entrance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> thanks free...awed

awed, congrats.

On apologizing, I will try it when appropriate. As it is W & I apologize too much to each other. I think it is a sign what 2+ yrs of LBs have done to our communication. It is a sloooooowwww process to have enough confidence to not apologize over every little thing and recongnize the important things that really do warrant an apology. The more I look the more I see just how much our M has been suffering. It's hard not to get overwhelmed by it. Trying to fix everything at once... sigh. I'm trying to ignore what I can so that we can focus on the really important stuff.

W has tomorrow off so I'll be taking Good Friday off as well. I could use the time for self reflection and rest. I'm sure W will not be happy about this but I need it. Attending mass usually helps me find a sense of peace so I'm looking forward to it.

Both of you have a good weekend.

J.

Hi there. How are you both (jgnc and awed)? I am doing great.

awed, I hope things are turning out as you would like regarding your graduate interview. I'm hoping all is well for you on the homefront also.

J, how are your many projects coming along? How's the MRS.?

As for me. Oh my goodness I was having some bouts with past memories (flashbacks)and what I've learned from Susan Page. I was feeling almost desolate, as if I was going into relapse without being able to help myself.

Then I saw my H and I don't know what happened but almost magiacally I wanted to start applying the concepts that I've been learning. I've taken this experience as a bit of igniting fuel to help keep me on the right back toward recovery. Gosh, I've been making so many new discoveries that it has been amazing to me. And a lot of them are self edifying. Boy, am I grateful.

I give the credit for this to the struggle it has taken me to get here, the wise help that you guys have given me and also to God.

I want to share one of my enlightenments. Remember, how I was getting hung up about my H not being affectionate toward me? It took some soul searching to get at why this made me so upset.

First of all, I know it isn't strange or an unreasonable request to want affection. However it becomes unreasonable when demanding that things be this way before one can be happy. Because for me it was as if feeling that my H was affectionate gave me a sort of validation from him that I was attrative to him and that he loved me, right? Also I felt after he had done so much that made me feel that he wasn't attracted to me, namely in having the A, I felt he OWED it to me to make me feel now that he wanted me.

After thinking things over and hearing Susan Page in my head, almost subliminally (Oh yeah I'm listening to a tape of her also), Then I decided a few things:

1. I like affection but I don't have to have it to be content. It would be nice if he made me feel he was attractive to him by being affectionate but he doesn't have to show this for me to be happy.

2. I am attractive (whether he says it or not)because I like what I see when I look at myself. I would like for my H to voice it but it is ok if he doesn't either.

More importantly I'm attracttive not only physically, but I have attractive aspects of myself that I like and it isn't totally physical nor is it something that my H or anyone else has to agree with me about. There are some good attractive parts of me that reflect inner beauty not just the outside package.

3. I discovered that trying to force someone else to show me affection or see me as attractive or show me love, causes me to be dependent on them. When it comes down to getting to know people and building strong bonds of friendship, one has to remove themselves fromt he picture first. Otherwise, one may place inappropiate requirements on others to make them feel validated. Who wants to feel that they have to ego stroke someone all the time in order to be a friend, lover, wife or whatever the case to them? I suspect not too many people.

4. I found that I can give affection. I don't have to feel that someone else has to be that way toward me before I am that way toward them. Oh my goodness. Startling discoveries for me of course. Afterall, when I see a precious little baby I don't say that the abay has to notice me before I almost automatically want to reach out in affection toward the little one. Well I guess this is the same attitude that I'd like to take on with the ones I love. They don't have to reach out to me before I can show them love.

Oh my goodness guys I could go on but I don't want to bore you with too many details. I just hope all is going great for you both and hope to hear from you soon.

signed- a woman getting to know peace and finally in real recovery-freetobe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ April 19, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

Very happy to hear things are going so well.

Life is pretty good right now. Last week our MC commented on how much improvement we have made in such a short time. I attribute it to simple willingness to work within the M.

By her actions my W is showing commitment. I take it with a grain of salt because well, her life is going well right now and its easy to show commitment when things are easy.

Still, there is no talk of separating while she goes to school and we frequently discuss our future as something to be pursued together.

More importantly we are both communicating much more. In MC I have been able to bring up issues that strain our M. It is remarkable how they are now being addressed. Our biggest accomplishment is coming to the realization that we can talk about anything to each other. If we can do that then we can negotiate on anything.

W is doing fine, she is happy about starting school and working a temp job right now which keeps her busy.

My many projects are coming together, but one at a time. We finished painting our bedroom this past weekend. I'll be working this weekend to build some night stands w/ a friend. Hopefully the furniture will come in before our anniversary next week but it's no big deal if it doesn't.

The map and the cabinets for the bar are on hold and will remain so for at least a few weeks.

The past 2 weeks I was really burning out by trying to please so much. After some talks I'm now just being myself, pursuing what I want rather than what she thinks is best for me to pursue. I'm enjoying being able to enjoy myself. W has been helpful in this by taking the pressure off so I don't have to fight her to get time for myself off. I'm cycling a lot and enjoying taking a 5 mile detour to work.

I see a change. Even the times which have been bad have not been the catastrophic events they were before.

I really likes your post. Reminds me of something our MC said regarding needs and wants. Realizing that many of the things we consider to be needs are really wants is liberating. When we label something a need we put our happiness in the hands of the one that provides that need. Labeling something a want gives us responsability for our emotions and also takes the pressure of the one that provides it.

With ENs it gets a little fuzzy for me because on one hand they are not needs in the sense of necessary for survival. However they are necessary for the health of the relationship.

Well, I have to ride home and its about to rain so I'll continue my thoughts on this later.

take care,

J.

all I can say in response to your last two posts? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think that this will be a good thread for others in the midst of personal growth, hmmmm? it's full of doubts, fears, setbacks...but then some real enlightenment, progress, optimism...17 pages of watching a few people struggle through the ups and downs of recovery...of realizing the difference between personal and M recovery...of the ins and outs of communication, contact, counselling...of moving in and out of M recovery while always struggling to maintain/regain the momentum of personal recovery...

I wish I could think that this is the "end", that we will only experience the happy ending from now on...of course, that is not life, merely the Hollywood influence that has me yearning for happy endings...

life is conflict, M is conflict, M is good and bad times, happiness is only possible in relation to troubled times...

but specifically?

free you are awesome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...keep it up...I am so happy to hear this stuff coming from you and think it will last for the rest of your life...I don't think ANYTHING will ever undo these realizations/revelations...

and the same goes for you jgnc...you are experiencing such a transformation of your internal thinking, it is wonderful to see it happen, and not a moment too soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I know there is a long way to go with your W but the counselling and your introspection are leading you down the right path for sure...keep up the wonderful cycling...I am pea green with envy! (country living is not so terrific for bike-riding unless you off-road which I most emphatically do not do)...

as for me, the interview was excellent yesterday...the Director moved from the exclusive use of careful language ("if we should decide in your favour") to flat out telling me she was going to recommend to the committee that I be accepted...I'm guessing that as Director, as the only one to interview me in person, her recommendation will carry weight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

however, she warned me that even if the committee agrees with her, there are still going to be bureaucratic hurdles (not insignificant either) that she needs to jump through in order to get me admitted by Grad Studies itself...I do not meet the qualifications required so she will need to mount a campaign to justify why they should bend the rules for me...

so keep those fingers crossed for me guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I am closer than I was on Monday...but agonizingly far away still at this point in time...

the homefront is so amazing I cannot believe it...so instead I try to merely experience it and treasure it for what it is...let go of the drama (as Penny puts it so well)...let it become a part of the past...I still want to discuss things but I am trying to train myself not to...to have the discussion in my head, vigorously weed out the important from the rest (it's something like a less than 5% ratio!), simply discard the remaining 95%, and then formulate a plan (discussion, action, further contemplation) for the 5%...

let's face it: as BS we were traumatized...it is so hard to let it go...let it rest...discard the questions, the emotions...the basic "how could you..." common to every single BS...

I knew this would be my greatest challenge from the start...to STOP thinking...to simply BE...while this is a challenge for me at the best of times, I also knew from my voracious reading here that it is a major challenge for virtually all BS...that many BS will choke on later recovery because of this inability to let go...

that's it that's all...let go...simple but NEVER easy...

whew...wordy as always huh?

awed

P.S. both of you might want to hear that H now apologises to me at least every other day, sometimes several times in one day...and this is not in relation to anything at all actually...no triggers, certainly not in response to anything I am saying or doing (ie. guilt-based)...

just whatever is going on inside his head...the true remorse finally...his understanding of the value of what he almost lost, his insanity for the past few years, his lack of control vs. my amazing demonstration of love and "control" (ie. of myself, my emotions), my lack of judgement on him/with him...

it's odd and funny actually...sometimes I say, "oh that!" when I realize he's apologizing for something A-related (the apologies truly come out of the blue at me)...imagine! I can casually reference back to something that used to feel like a knife inserted through my chest, sticking out my back, preventing me from breathing, sometimes literally killing me (emotionally, couldn't eat, severe anxiety attacks)...I guess this means I have truly processed the A and its effects on me...have truly detached from the headiness of the emotions...have truly forgiven...I guess it is all good...

it is just so darn weird!...if I hadn't read it in books or through personal experience of others, I wouldn't believe how much you can grow and heal from such a traumatic experience...

babble de babbling...have an excellent day/week you guys!

Sorry to interrupt your thread, but I just wanted to say hi to awed! Isn't she amazing? I couldn't have made it without her and lots of other people here.

I'm very happy to hear you are doing well. Good luck with getting grad school and the M recovery sounds awesome, as well.

I didn't know that "true" remorse was another milestone. We hit it a couple of weeks ago in a very strange way. Maybe I will share the story one day. Anyways, I just wanted to wave hi. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi J and awed.

First I want to thank you both for so much help and encouragement you've given me. It is helping me so much. In times when things are difficult these post come to mind and I think about something that was posted here.

J, I'm so glad to hear about your personal progress and also with MRS. Her showing committment is great. I know this is a big step. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the needs and wants pointer too.

As it pertains to meeting needs, I have found with my H that as I observe him I learn more about his needs. Sometimes it is diffuclt because it isn't quite like just having him rate them on the Needs Questionnaire. But I try hard to watch and get a feel of what he wants. Being that he is the quietest man that I've met in my life, it is no piece of cake.

awed, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hip Hip hooray <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm glad to hear about the interview. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks also for the encouragement to me and J. And the compliment about our progress on this thread. Boy, it has been No walk in the park.
But I feel you have been my sinse (sin-say)(I know this is misspelled) and I the grasshopper at times.

I know you are right that this isn't the end. Oh, shame on Hollywood's misgivings.

I'm happy to hear how things are going on the homefront and wish you and J more happiness with your spouses.

As for me, things are going great. I'm just learning so much more about my H.

Sometimes I feel a little overwhelemed by it all. Also a little afraid that what if something should change. I dismiss my fears though and get past them.

Anyway thank you guys again.

[ April 21, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]

lbc!!! <<<<lbc>>>>

well howdy you! hope you pop on back in here because I've wanted to say hi for a long while...

it sounds like things are going well for you my friend...I admit to curiosity about your latest postings but your reasons are your own for not sharing specific details! after all, you are not here to satisfy my purient (and endless!) curiosity... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

suffice to say I am SO pleased to hear that your H is coming to deep realizations...yes -- "true" remorse is a recovery milestone...mind you, I thought I'd heard it from my H before <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but now I see the greater depth of H's remorse, I understand the importance of it for HIS personal recovery...

and that is what it is I guess...I no longer need it for me...he needs to express it for him...

as mentioned, the dynamic is very interesting...I have to remember to thank him each time because it is a gift he is offering to me...just because my personal recovery no longer requires it, it still means a great deal from one S to another...

hope your little sweetheart is doing well and kicking up a storm in your household! (getting the terrible twos yet?)...lusty, breathtaking, life-affirming little beings...never really a dull moment huh?

take care...awed

hey free...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sometimes I feel a little overwhelemed by it all. Also a little afraid that what if something should change. I dismiss my fears though and get past them.
<hr /></blockquote>way to go!!! I think you are figuring out how strong you truly are...it's excellent to watch from my end I'll tell you...

now...when are you inviting me over for some of that delicious lamb? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> cooking up something else perhaps?

have an awesome weekend...awed

P.S. you too J if you drop in...

awed, Does that mean I'm strong, when I'm actually able to handle being overwhelmed and fear and all that stuff. Well, I'm glad to hear it. Sometimes I want to dpwnplay that I feel strong because I don't want to become overcofident. But I guess giving myself a little pat on the back in recognizing my strenth is ok.

Thanks awed you make me feel good about myself.

How was your weekend?
Oh the lamb, the lamb. I'm getting better and better at it. It is such a tasty meat and I love the fatty parts. Just the parts I need to stay away from right. So tell me, when would you like to sample my novice cookery?

I hope your week is just wonderful.

J I hope all is well and you had a great weekend.
Hope to hear from you soon.

Have you guys noticed that we post much less than we did before? I think it is a good thing.

I'm just too busy. But maybe its a sign I'm actually handling life better.

Had a good weekend for the most part except for when W had a bit much to drink and started rehashing ancient history involving OM. Didn't do to well with that but the wonderful thing is that we seem to recover much better. The conflict we experience seems to come from voicing our disagreements which I think can only be a good thing.

Other than that it was a great weekend. Took my first steps into woodworking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully by then end of this weekend I'll have a set of night stands for the new bedroom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm trying to ignore the negative stuff that always seems to crop up in life. I can't seem to be able to ignore it so I'm giving myself time to be upset and put it behind me.

There's so many small changes I see in her and myself, I'll be exploring some issues from the past in IC now and maybe something will come of it. I wish I could write about it all but like I said no time.

Anyways a belated congrats on the interview to Awed and on the positive steps in both of your homes.

BTW country living is excellent for cycling IMHO. Low traffic, terrific views, of course you do need a bit of pavement or a dual suspension mountain bike, personally I like the off-road so I have the suspension but hopefully will have a road bike soon.

Oh and its Sifu for Kung-fu Sensai for karate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

later friends.

J.

posting my reply to Octobergirl and Awed here since get easily lost in GQII

Well yesterday was W's B-day and we had a great time so I'm feeling better. Plus I think after almost 2 weeks the anti-d's are kicking in again.

well yes I can talk to my W and have to some extent. She knows there is still anger and she understands. In fact before she could not understand how I could not be angry. But that's it. There is a wall in our communication because well... she does not take critisism well. It's hard for her to face up to her actions and take ownership of them.

I am trying to vanish the thoughts because as our MC said, I have to give her the opportunity to change. On the otherhand my IC tells me that it is normal that I do not trust her committment and that the feeling may not fully go away.

I'm thinking of when I started feeling like this. Recently she's found some dissatisfaction w/ grad school and has expressed some regret at being tied to Colorado and being restricted from applying to other schools. This is a big trigger because she blamed the marriage before for killing her career. That dissatisfaction fulled the EA to begin with.

There's a lot of resentment as to how the A finally ended. Yes I did mean A not M.

I'm thinking a lot about these things:
I had to end it for her w/ a threat to OM.
She never has asked for forgiveness, though she has said she is sorry for hurting me.
Her views on marriage and commitment (antiquated cruel institution) in general make it hard for me to believe that she could ever make a real commitment.
She has difficulty w/ empathy.
Sometimes she seems more concerned w/ what her actions say about her than what their effect is on others.
She recognizes some narcissistic qualities in herself.

These are not things I can change. I guess I'm asking myself if these are things I can live with. And of course there are the fears that creep up sometimes, that if I mess up or something beyound my control happens to my work or school does not work out for her, that she will be looking for a way out again.

I'm trying not to get down on this. She is trying. For the first time in over a year, she seems to be letting me figure out what I want for myself rather than dictate it to me. Just trying to focus on the small positives rather than the long way to go.

Awed,

In other news. work is ok. Was having a few bad days there where I was sure I was going to quit but it passed. I'm getting some good possitive feedback so I'm optimistic. The painting is stalled, many home projects are stalled, part of the minor breakdown which made me slow down considerably. I still have some end tables I need to finish constructing and that comes first.

I'm finally buying a road bike, which W is quite enthusiastic about. She really likes that I am seriously persuing an goal.

Take care, and let us know how your grad plans work out.

J.

Hey J...

I wrote a long response to you that went *poof* when my computer froze last Friday...grrr...I still hate that...I try to remember to write in Word so the doc is saved but noooooooo...and problems always seem to happen when I am either posting on a forum or responding to a Yahoo message (also no auto save)...

anyhow...

first on the lighter side, I am relieved about work getting better, and thrilled to hear about the bike! get out there and work it!!!

I've dumped kung fu for now which sucks big time...I know I'll get back to it soon though...nothing like vigorous physical exercise!

grad school is amazing...I am having a wicked time...the program is awesome, the other students are exceptional...it is truly living up to its reputation and my expectations...wow...

okay...

here's that thread I mentioned before...while the thread deals with other mental issues (BPD in particular), it was the comments made by Selene in her post on June 1st, about 4 paragraphs in that made me think of you...

this is one wise lady and I found her comments interesting... **edit**

I'd also written some personal observations to you in the "lost thread" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...the kinds of things I've seen change over time in talking with you, etc.

short version: it's time for you to think long and hard about what you want...if you want to stay M to your W, accepting her problems as yours, then it's time to deal with your anger...it is YOURS J...she is going to be as she is...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But that's it. There is a wall in our communication because well... she does not take critisism well. It's hard for her to face up to her actions and take ownership of them <hr /></blockquote>there's tons of meat in there that we could talk about...

anyhow, I'd be happy to discuss it in greater depth with you anytime...just let me know, either by e-mail **edit** or pop by **edit** and start a new thread!

one possibly uplifting thought for you bud...my M is incredible, beyond expectations...but the change really did come from inside me...it has to start and end inside you...

taking ownership of the anger, finding the root of it, addressing it, and freeing yourself from those chains...I want to see everyone I care about experience this freedom...

I cannot say whether or not your W will heal...but I know YOU have the potential to do so...maybe you are getting to that point?

take care...and please keep in touch...in fact, I am going to have to go bug free and find up where she's disappeared to! awed