Today I am having a rare moment of clarity (not angry or depressed) so I can reflect on a few things and hopefully improve my Plan A.

There is a lot of anger anytime the idea of NC comes up. WW still insists that she has the right to maintain friendship w/ OM because of the physical distance. She has no friends of her own (big big prob) so the need for OM is that much greater. Although she does not say it I know she is still in love w/ OM. Her conversations w/ OM seem benign at the moment but today I confirmed her feelings for him. Oddly I was relieved to find this out, I guess its better to know where I stand.

I have had the following realizations which I suppose should have been obvious from the get go. WW does not feel safe in our M. Our M is something that she has given up her dreams for with nothing to show for it. She sees me as someone who is not motivated to achieve and with whom she cannot share her zest for accomplishment.
Our M is something that limits her freedom to pursue her goals.

There have been rare moments when she feels emotionally closer me. These are times when she sees me working to accomplish a goal, be it home improvement, personal improvement or work. This seems to be the one foothold I have in trying to save our M.

I am wondering if MC is going to be a waste of time, at least she feels safe enough that she wants the marriage to work. Right now her attempts at following through w/ what the MC tells us are half-hearted at best. I think she is only going along w/ it due to guilt or a sense of obligation. She is starting to view MC w/ suspicion, an attempt to change her into a "good" wife.

Plan A right now consists of:
- working on making myself more attractive by working on goals and making sure she sees the changes.
- Making our M safe for her by supporting all of her goals.
- avoiding LB's.
- I'm not sure what EA's I can meet, she does consider Affection or SF important. Financial and domestic support are the only things I can meet but I don't know how much those are even valued.

I need to find a way to achieve some level of emotional distance to be sucessful. I cannot work on improving myself if I continue to be consumed by anger and depression. The hardest part about this is that while this is going on my EA's are not going to be met at all and this could go on for a long long time. Eventually it will just hurt too much.

M 2yrs
BS Me - 30
WS W - 28
EA 5/2003 - Present???
D-Day 10/4 - NC immedieate or so I thought
C 10/29
In Plan A now

Hi jgnc.
Distancing yourself is very difficult. But it sounds like you have a clear plan. The hard part is applying it and dealing with the emotions that come along with it.

Dr Harley has recommended only if you feel it necessary talking to your health care provider about medications that may help. I also use a site that helps me channel in on irrational thoughts and anger which get in the way of my goal, it is : www.rational.org.nz. I am not perfect and sometimes I slip back but I try to keep in mind my goal in this. I read a lot and try to understand the inconsiderate hurtful nature of the WW in the EA.
I also find comfort in spitutal things and try to remember that this won't last always. It is a journey that I have chosen to travel so it is going to take a little time out of my life. Anyway, these are a few things that have helped me. I wish you the best.

Heya JGNC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm getting ready to go into Plan B next week so I don't really have any great insights for you.

As freetobe said, are you on anti-d's?
Are you still talking to your friend about all this?
Are you still writing in your journal?

I wish there was some wonderful bit of advice I could give you, especially about the emotional distance. For about two weeks I sort of felt like I had an emotional scab built up but I have no idea how it happened. I think mainly I was just talking to several people, and was starting to think more and more about my future and what I would like to do if in the end the marriage didn't work. I don't know if that's a good idea really, but for me it helped to realize that no matter what I would be okay in the end.

In any case eat chocolate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then exercise hehe. Both can help improve your mood. Maybe go spend some time regularly with friends.

I do have one question though...why does your marriage limit her freedom to achieve her goals? Is that a fact? Or is it something she simply perceives to be true? Are there ways she could persure her goals while in the marriage?

Freetobe, thanks for the resource I will take a look at is as soon as I can.

Sio, I wanted to reply to your last message in JFO but didn't know how. Glad you are still around and working on yourself(plan b). To answer your questions,

I'm not on anti-D's. Although the last 2 weeks have been very hard I honestly hope it does not come to that.

I'm talking to 2 friends who have full knoweldge and most know that there are "problems." One I'm kinda giving up on, he's a good friend, just doesn't have the life experience. The other is a college friend who went through a divorce after roughly 2 year of marriage. He understands and has been a great help.

I'm not really journaling much, just can't find the time. I know I should.

As far as your last question its a combination of fact and perception. Fact, moving ended her career (for the time being). I was not supportive of her pursuing a graduate program at a prestigious university (that is 800 miles away). Fact, since I graduated college I have not been very goal oriented. Ofcourse this greatly simplifies these issues but that is how she sees it. In her mind I am doing everything I can to control who she is. My attempts at pressing for NC are seen in the same light. yeah yeah fog, whatever...

Anyway, yes there are ways that she can pursue her career and I would make any changes necessary to do it She says she can't live w/ someone who does not share those same values, it brings her down and keeps her from achieving her own. She thinks I put my need for domestic comfort ahead of her need for achivement. I can see why she says that. We had some lofty goals that I did not live up to when we moved but I don't think that is the whole of it. Whatever my faults there was no well concieved plot to turn a career woman into a barefoot housewife.

Maybe I'll take the time to write this out in a well thought out way. What's above just does not read to well.

well she's in her office with the doors closed typing away at the computer. She's been moping about since I got home today but now I can hear her occasionally chuckle at something. My guess is she's talking to OM.

I guess this begs the question: how much do I press her for NC? Do rely on my Plan A actions to hopefully bring her around or continue confronting her. Last time I did was horrible, beyond all of the verbal/emotional abuse she laid on me, she pretty much threatened to kill herself.

I don't know as much as some of the others around here, but I am in plan A and there is a slight lifting of the fog so I will offer up what I have done.

Stop confronting about the contact with OM. I stopped asking where my H was going and when he would return. I did not mention OW at all. You only make your W mad when you do and encourage her to go to him.

I always make suggestions for something we can do together. Then H either has decide to come along, leave, or (most recently and the most difficult) I go without him.

I have tried to adopt a "dating" mentality. When you are dating someone you don't demand their time or get upset if they go out with someone else. You look for opportunities for you and that person to spend time together and you put on your best behavior (ie. the changes you should be trying to make in yourself) to try to impress them. You will be more in control of your emotions if you try to think this way.

Don't react if they don't want to spend as much time with you as you do with them. When I started letting go a little I saw big improvements and my H commented that he felt better too. You can't hold on tightly and try to control her. When she is ready to give up H then ask for NC. You can't demand it from her. Work on preparing / bettering yourself for what has to come next.

Look at it this way...you are preparing for a new marriage - either with your W or with someone else. If you want it to be with your W then you have to buckle down and put the MB principles into place. I also encourage reading about 180 degree changes. I was hesitant but they are working. Stay in Plan A and keep living together.

firefly

firefly,

Thanks for the response. Right In the past week I have been doing pretty much just that. The anger/depression lifted enough that I was able to really do a good Plan A. And I have seen some small positive changes. Today, as of literally 3 hrs ago, its a different story and now I'm really angry and just wanting to tear everything down around me. It's like a chemical resoponse, I can feel the adrenaline. I feel like I'm just creating a situation where she can do as she pleases w/out any accountability. She wants this to all be consequence free. It's up to me to get over what happened and trust that she will not let their R get to that point again. What kind of fool does she take me for?

enraged,
jgnc

jgnc,
I understand your highs and lows. Been going through it for 8 months now. The WS doesn't accept responsibility for their actions, nor do they recognize any consequences. Everyone else has the problem, or is seriously messed up, or whatever... My WH's fog is finally starting to lift (I think, I hope...), and he's just now realizing the financial bind his selfish behavior put us in. For months, I scrambled around, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, because he left work early each and every day to pursue R with OW!!! He didn't think about what he was doing to us, nor did he care what I had to do to get the bills paid. I could have robbed a bank for all he cared. NOW, he sees the pile of debt, and has finally accepted responsibility for it.

My WH did do whatever he pleased, most of them do and don't think twice about it. My WH just recently told me that he can't trust the OW, and expects her to cheat on him (because she has), but that if I did it to him, it would devestate him... Almost as if it was OK for him to do it to me... FOG is a difficult thing to deal with.

All I can say is, if you really want your M, be strong. You'll feel like a doormat somedays, accomodating her when she really doesn't deserve it, but just remind yourself. Would you rather the OM meet her needs, or you beat him to the punch?

I know it's hard. Hang in there.
MOP

jgnc,
Yes we are all rooting for you. Hang in there. Happy Thanksgiving to you.

IMO you should speak to one of the counsellors on this website to find out whether you are doing Plan A too long and should be moving on to a plan B especially when your wife is still continuing her contact with the OM.

Everybody, thank you for the kind responses.

Well D-Day was little less than 2 months ago and a good plan A started only 1 week ago. Today, basically I stumbled. Before coming home I drove around for a while and did some errands... things that would help me feel better and show to her (and myself) that though I had stumbled I was picking myself back up. I'm still angry and unsure how to proceed, but the anger is not dominating me.

The problem I have with NC is that as firefly said if I confront her, I push her away. If I don't she will mistakenly believe that I am somehow over it and trust her to keep the R a friendship. On the surface, which is all I'm able to see, she is doing a good job of keeping it benign. I have suspicions that she still has strong feelings for this man. How could she not?!
At best she is keeping the EA dormant. There is a deep commietment there, 5 years ago when they first met they made an instant deep commitment, now that I understand better I see that she was the OW in an EA with this man. It turned really ugly when she saw what was developing and ended it. It cost him in his workplace and at home. Now after 5yrs of NC they took the EA much further. Regardless of how wrong she knows it to have been those feelings could not have gone away.

Originally posted by jgnc:
The problem I have with NC is that as firefly said if I confront her, I push her away. If I don't she will mistakenly believe that I am somehow over it and trust her to keep the R a friendship.

JGNC,
I'm in a similar situation. I'm in Plan A. I've talked to my WF about NC. He has agreed before only to break his word. Well now he is trying harder but I know he is vulnerable. Have you told her that you do not want her to keep F with OM?

From what you've said your WS has 5 years History with lover. That they've maintained a
R so long may seem discouraging. But she may very well want to save her M with you still. So hold on. Have you discussed saving the R?

Myself and WF have been working on this for about 2-3 months now. However I have hurt some of my efforts by LB. I have also undermined some of my efforts by tipping my hand revealing my discovery of certin things. I didn't understnad that I wasn't suppose to do this at the time.

I made the mistake of trusting what WF was saying, that A was over. However I didn't realize he was lying. So when I found out he had lied it devastated me to the point of almost giving up. I thought it should have been easy for him to just give it up.

Had to change my view point. Didn't understand addicitve nature of A and the difficulty he might have letting go. He saw OW as a lover but also as a friend because OW was there for him when I in times past was not and vice versa.

Now that I understand this and many other things, I've tried to get a little wiser about my intent and efforts going forward. I have made it clear that NC has to happen for trust to be rebuilt. However it can't as long as contact is there. So if WF chooses to make C, I realize that A is still going on, thus recovery can't begin until it is. SO I know Plan B may be a step if Plan A doesn't work. ALso I do not discuss it as often. Only irritated WF. Now I observe and if conact is made I note it and continue to try to build love deposits (as he will let me) realizing that I may have to go to Plan B.

I was obsessed wanting to know this and that. Now I try to take in info(discovery) as to how it may help me. I've learned taking in too much only frustated me. When an oppurtunity presents itself to calmly discuss our R. I try to reiterate what I feel about NC and why. I also have discussed the Policy of Joint Agreement with WF and try to live this one myself though it is difficult. I try to listen and observe more, talk less. ALso compliments him when he allows me in and when he talks it over with me.

She may know that you don't want her to have F with OM but may feel it difficult to change. You want to be there for her through this as she will allow you to. Yes, you are doormat. You want to be the attractive alternative so that she may turn to you more. Well this is my 2 cents. I hope it may help you some.
Wishing you the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

just one clarification, though they have a 5 yr history, their F (EA?) ended 5 years ago and restarted 9 mo ago.

Anyway I wish I had read your response last night. Last night was bad, real bad. Work has been a problem the past 6 mo. and discovery of the EA has only made it worse. My boss basically intonated that if there are layoffs I am a likely candidate. Combine the stress at work and the EA and it lead to a breakdown. I hid in a dark room and tried to quietly vent the anger and pain. She tried to help me even though she could tell I was very angry. It was some time before I let her.

I told her what was going on a work. To my surprise she was very supportive. She also suggested I find an IC to help me deal with the combined stress. We also ended up talking about NC which was a hard thing for her. She so badly wanted me to know that our M was much better than I thought and that she could maitain F w/ OM and be faithful to me. By the time I got to bed I was thinking that she wanted me to go see an IC so that I could cope and she would not have to do NC. I was wrong. Right before we went to bed she told me that she had removed him from her friends list and blocked his e.mail address.

I'm still looking for an IC today. I was very wrong to think I could deal w/ this stress on my own. My biggest concern now is that I know how hard it was for her to initiate NC. I know she did so because she saw how much pain it was causing and to give me something good that would help me pick myself back up. Withdrawal likely to be hard.

Gosh, JGNC
Good news that WS actually told you about taking OM off the friend list, tried to comfort
you. If I may, I would like to ask you if you haven't already to let her know how much you
appreciated that. That is a little step, but significant step. What I wanted
to tell you though is to guard your heart just as you have stumbled she may also.
SO if she seems to slip up listen, help and reiterate as you can but try not to LB.
I so identiy with what you are saying about thinking that she didn't want the M only
to find out she did.
Sorry to hear about your Job. Really hope that things will turn out in your favor. Hope also that you will find a good IC to work through stress. Wishing you the best.

well my plan now is to first, thank her properly. Last night was just too hard and surreal to do so properly. Also continue working on myself. I expect her to stumble just like I have and I know just how difficult maintaining NC will be for her. I will do my best to tell her how important her honesty about contact will be and I will not LB if I discover or she admits to contact. Most importantly, redoubling my efforts to meet conversation, honesty and admiration needs as best and as sincerely as I can.

best wishes to you all as well.

Hi JGNC,
Sorry for my late reply. It sounds like you have a plan. I'm working on one also. WF and myself are in Plan A. I C OW H and OW actually came to our home to rant. C is suppose to be over. In the meantime I am working on myself more.

Everytime that I read that your are working on yourself, it really encourages me to do more too. Sometimes I get stuck on him when really it is more important to focus on what I'm doing, what I'm doing.

I think you are doing great and moving in the right direction <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . As always wishing you the best.

jgnc,
you made a statement that i found very interesting.

"There have been rare moments when she feels emotionally closer me. These are times when she sees me working to accomplish a goal, be it home improvement, personal improvement or work. This seems to be the one foothold I have in trying to save our M."

are you saying that she does realize that your efforts to save this marriage consitutes working to achieve a major "goal" in your life...probably what you consider the single most important goal in your life presently!? if not then shouldn't this be discussed?

judging from your posts, your W sounds like a pretty likeable lady...not your basic irrational cheating spouse, LOL something or some one definetly more cerebal! a cut above if you will. LOL! but that doesn't mean she really "gets it."

although she sounds like she cares my question is how much? i mean would she care about anyone she knew in the situation your in...equally as much...or are you special because you're you... or maybe because she feels responsible for the situation?

the thing is, your W has deamons of her own to deal with...and these deamnons are not of your making. please tell me where it's written that married woman can't also be accomplished achievers? that they can't also go out into the world and meet goals and objectives important to them and their lives?

it sounds to me as if maybe she's afraid that she doesn't have the ability to meet her own goals in life and would rather cast blaim for her fears in another direction...

one last thought. if it were me i wouldn't get to gushy about thanking her for doing what is clearly the "right thing", (giving up contact with the OM.) if she features herself to be an indepemdent woman that she shouldn't need your affirmation for doing the adult, indeed, the correct thing.

coach

Fretobe,

Thank you. It is so easy to get stuck. For me at least, it seems to come from not knowing. During the EA, when she was saying things like "I on't know if I married you for the right reasons" or "I'm not happy being married" I had no idea what was really going on or what to do about it. Because of that she got to see the worst side of me. The more I learn the better I get.

Of course there are stumbles

Yesterday was odd, in the morning I found out that their contact had not been as benign as I had thought. Again there was a record of an... inappropriate IM chat. Because it was dated from before she agreed to NC I did my best to let it go. Not dwelling on the past if I can help it. Later after I got home I heard the IM chime indicating she had just recieved a instant message. Had to be from OM. After a few moments I walked in her office and she asked me for privacy. After an awkward moment I asked her why? She told me she had to tell him that she could not talk to him anymore. Rather than press my right to know what she said to him I let it go. Later she told me she had written him a farewell message. I know that this isn't a textbook NC letter by any means, but I'll take it.

We have a long road ahead of us. She is reclaiming her independence and there is no telling how a marriage fits into that right now. the idea of committing to rebuilding the marriage is not one she buys into right now. She's taking a much more cautions, lets work on it and see where this goes, no guarantees approach. This drives me MAD but what can I do other than stay in Plan A until she can commit.

BTW OW coming to your house to rant?! I don't know much about your story but that seems... wrong.

JGNC,
Yes you are right it was WRONG for OW to come to home to rant. WRONG. Especially with her being M. So I had to take legal actions for her actions.

WS sent the farewell. Good deal. I can understand you got stuck. We all do because we are humans dealing with other imperfect and somewhat confused humans.

I was wondering how come your WS wouldn't allow you to see the IM chat, especially if he is being ousted. But it is best not to push. Can you read the IM chat as you did before? I have found that I have to guard my heart. Accepting that my situation is what it is and WF may be fickle. He may do right and he may do wrong but I am in Plan A until situation is corrected or I decide to move the Plan B.

Though I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm I will mention a situation that happened to me.
This doens't have to be the case for you but my WF told me on several occasions that things were over, right. This last time he told me that He said he decided that there was too much friction between us to keep C with OW.

So he told OW no more calls. I wondered why this happened and why he wouldn't include me in on terminating A to help promote trust in him. I was suspicious but I didn't push it.

A little while later I read an email where he was busted. I LB I really did. I wished I hadn't. Anyway when I confronted him he said that OW and him had already decided not to go with this anymore. He said he learned the type of person she really was. I don't know what took so long. Anyway,I still didn't want to trust him because he was leaving too much to her.

SO I C her H and some family members. Her H confronted my WF. He told him and me it really was over this time. Though I believe it more this time it will take him building my trust which he is doing now for me to toally trust him. So just know I'm hoping that she did send farewell but, in case not try not to let it shatter you. Have you contact her family your family about what is going on? Well that is my 2cents.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
are you saying that she does realize that your efforts to save this marriage consitutes working to achieve a major "goal" in your life...probably what you consider the single most important goal in your life presently!? if not then shouldn't this be discussed?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting, I do not think she sees that at all. As important as it is to me, right now I don't think she sees that as a worthy goal. She still views marriage (at least ours) with suspicion. As I see it, its that she wants to be with someone she can admire and will motivate her to excel as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
judging from your posts, your W sounds like a pretty likeable lady...not your basic irrational cheating spouse, LOL something or some one definetly more cerebal! a cut above if you will. LOL! but that doesn't mean she really "gets it."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Cerebral is definately a good way to describe her. Maybe a little too cerebral. Her older sister wanted to be Spock, all intellect no emotions. my W is not that bad but has does tendencies to dismiss something that does not make logical sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
although she sounds like she cares my question is how much? i mean would she care about anyone she knew in the situation your in...equally as much...or are you special because you're you... or maybe because she feels responsible for the situation?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think mostly because she feels responsible. Sometimes I think she cares more about the cat's well being than my own. That's really not fair to her, she is trying more and more. She does not want to cause pain to anyone. There have been moments when what seemed to matter was that her actions somehow meant that she was a bad person, rather than the fact that I was in incredible pain. It angered me to no end, everything was about her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
the thing is, your W has deamons of her own to deal with...and these deamnons are not of your making. please tell me where it's written that married woman can't also be accomplished achievers? that they can't also go out into the world and meet goals and objectives important to them and their lives?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not written anywhere. But the fact is that she left her career when we moved. This happened because we could not afford to live on just her salary and at the time the job prospects for me were very bad. So, look at the inequity in women's pay, the various messages telling women to get back into the home and raise children along with the personal sacrifices she has had to make and that's the message that you end up with.
There have been mistakes in the past and her defenses are making it very hard for her to trust that it could be different in the future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
it sounds to me as if maybe she's afraid that she doesn't have the ability to meet her own goals in life and would rather cast blaim for her fears in another direction...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have often felt this way. Her fear of failure has been crippling to her in the past. At those times I have been there for her, just like when she was hurt so badly by depression. Somehow, because I have always been there, she has come to believe that I want her to be dependent on me. Nothing could be further from the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
one last thought. if it were me i wouldn't get to gushy about thanking her for doing what is clearly the "right thing", (giving up contact with the OM.) if she features herself to be an indepemdent woman that she shouldn't need your affirmation for doing the adult, indeed, the correct thing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeah, plus she is still somewhat resentful for having to do so.

freetobe,

She believes privacy is her inalienable right. I let it go because, better to have her tell OM that she can't talk to him, than have a fight over this. It was not the right time to pick that battle. I can't see the chats anymore, she's disabled logging. I could enable it again. I guess the hardest part is that I want to be able to trust her. She's finally giving me reason to, before I can trust her word though we will have to have a number of serious talks about honesty.

I'm re reading what you said and I will heed your warning. My desire for things to be allright has always been my undoing.

Its hard to see what kind of future we have together. It's hard to say what's still fog and what isn't. (I hate all of theses labels). She still talks of vows and commitment as if they were tools of coercion. We have to find our way out of this and figure out what we want this M to be.

Oh, no I have not talked to any family members. It's a sad thing but I do not trust either of our families to react constructively. In our case, it would be an act of punishment.