Alright, I know it's a touchy subject but I mean, come on, guys look at porn.

My ex-wife told me she felt this is the same as cheating on her. I don't see it that way. I'm hoping others can weigh in on this.

I don't think it is the same as cheating, but it does diminish my respect for a man. From what I've seen (and I admit it's not much), it is degrading to women. I don't think most men would be happy to see such photos of their daughters so isn't it a little hypocritical to want to see other people's daughters like that? If it really bothers your wife (i.e. it's a Love Buster), you should stop looking at it or at least work out an agreement with her. Don't hide it from her, but maybe she would prefer you not to leave it bookmarked on the computer or magazines laying around the bathroom, etc.

You haven't offered much of an argument: "Come on, guys look at porn."

The Policy of Joint Agreement pretty much covers the issue of porn. If your spouse is not enthusiastic about you using porn, then you shouldn't.

Telling your spouse 'you shouldn't feel that way' is a very bad idea.

Or, how about picking up gallery, and there is a pictorial of your wife? your sister? your aunt? you daughter?

Cheating? in a way it is to me. I actually know men who have NEVER USED IT, LOOKED AT IT...I got hammered on another "relationship" site for that statement.

I was told all men use it, love it, and to just deal with it.

That makes me a very pissed off woman.

Why not call it cheating when a man is investing time, money, and sexual energy in another woman with no consideration for his wife's feelings?

IMO, it is no different from any other subject in a relationship. If one of you has an issue with it, avoid it. I can't stand to hear my husband slurp his cereal milk, it literally turns my stomach. In a perfect world, he'd hear me after a dozen times telling him it upsets me, and stop doing it. He chooses not to hear me, and continue. He loses points with me.

Not a popular opinion here, but I don't attach the stigma to porn that most people do. I look at it in a historical aspect, not a Puritanical American aspect, which is based on a certain religious doctrine.

Of course, before you skin me alive, that does not involve anything to do with child porn, women who are held prisoner, yada yada. But you can say the same argument about many industries today that incorporate child slavery, rape, sweatshops, etc.

I would never endorse any such thing. But to say that a man is cheating on his wife by looking at, even satisfying himself to, porn, is a stretch to me. Men have stronger urges than women for a reason - survival of the species. We don't need that now, but the biological urge is still there. What are you going to do with it? Expect the women to partake more than she is interested? Expect the man to repress his biological urges and find himsself looking at other real-world women?

IMO, looking at porn - unless it is an addiction, of course - has no reflection on whether a man loves his wife and finds her attractive.

If my daughter grew up with a healthy sexual self-image, free of guilt, and felt that posing in seductive ways was a good way to earn her living, I'd have to respect her opinion. I personally can't imagine anyone NOT minding filming the stuff, but that's just me; obviously there are thousands of people out there who it doesn't bother - my daughter might end up being one of them - who knows? I know that in her mind it would be just another business. People are going to have sex anyway. Doing it for film or photos just means they're getting paid for it. I would be uncomfortable with it because of my own personal screwed up background, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings or turn my opinion of her.

IMO, it's more an issue of the women who DO have a problem with it, and whether they can achieve an agreement with their spouse. If they marry someone who is drawn to it, they are automatically asking for trouble in the marriage, because they are asking their partner to alter who they are. JMO

I think that the problem that most people have with porn is that it is not subtle. There does exist, however "porn lite" for women. If a woman watches a movie or reads a book about a male romantic hero, and fantasizes about that man, has she "cheated on her husband"? In my opinion, no. In the same way, a man who views pornography has not cheated on his wife. Besides, the psychological impact of porn is different on every person who views it.

What is can be, however, is a love buster. If a woman is insecure, and sees herself as being unfavorably compared, then that can be a huge wedge. (also true if she IS being unfavorably compared)

So where does the POJA fit in? Well, I can imagine that many women do not "enthusiatically agree" to their husbands viewing porn. Having said that, I have never seen the POJA as giving a spouse veto power. The husband would have to enthusiastically agree to no porn. So, the two of them together would try to figure out WHY the husband views porn, and how together they can have the husband enthusiastically agree.

Bottom line, if it's important for the marriage, BOTH parties have some work to do.

According to Dr. Harley, the POJA means 'do nothing without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.' In this sense, doing nothing would mean not viewing porn. It is backwards to say 'I'm not enthusiastic about stopping something that bothers you.'

Ideally, respectful negotiation is used to come to a joint agreement. It seems that for some wives, an acceptable arrangement is that viewing porn should only be a shared experience, never a private one. But I'm sure many find any porn to be too distasteful to come to such a compromise.

We will have to agree to disagree about the POJA. The way you would apply it, you are simply giving over veto power to your spouse.

This is not to say veto power does not exist. If a spouse crosses a boundary, one always has the power to get out.

What constitutes a boundary will vary by person.

True. But I'm sure many do NOT find porn too distasteful, as long as it does not negatively affect the marriage via addiction or lying or sneaking (which is actually one partner's typical, if not logical, response to the other partner's non-negotiable stance), else why the multibillion-dollar industry? And just like cereal milk slurping or any other activity one partner finds too distasteful, it should be agreed upon by both.

Mr goodwrench, you sound exactly like another poster from another site...?

Fantasizing about an actor in a romantic movie or novel, in no way shape or form, can be compared with hard core porn. Give me a break dude. Apples and peaches..

I have read that a males need for masturbation comes (pun intended LOL)from a need to keep fresh product in his testi to be able to spread his seed and ensure the perpetuity of his genes...

I would be very interested if someone with a REAL academic/scientific background would weigh in on this statement.

Guys definately have stronger sexual urges. The availabilty and sheer volume of pornographic material has sky-rocketed...and with that, I bet divorce, and pain and suffering for those whom it hurts.

Are you saying that a woman's insecurity is the reason for her dislike of porn?

There is an article on this site that states cheating is defined by the offended spouse. (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html) We all have relationship boundries that we establish for ourselves. And I agree with you concerning women. That is why I stopped watching soaps years ago and don't read romance novels. For me, they set up unrealistic relationship expectations.



I don't believe it is necessarily a matter of insecurity or comparison. I believe it stems from a woman's desire to be the sole source of sexual pleasure for her husband. Is that unrealistic or unnatural?



I agree. POJA isn't about vetos, it is about getting creative and coming up with a solutions. However, if solving a pornography issue has become "important to the marriage", it seems to me that the pornography is an addiction. We can easily give up that which we are not addicted to if we see that it is hurting our spouse.

Please explain how it is different. One of the objections to porn is that a woman should not be in competition with the young women in the industry. Nor should a man be in competition with George Clooney. Heck even George Clooney can't live up to the image he creates on screen. Fantasy is fantasy.

It COULD be the reason. The reasons for objection will vary from person to person. Could be religous, could be personal taste, could be a sexual hang up. In no way am I placing blame on a woman for objecting to pornography. Any reason is a valid one, as it pertains to her marriage. I guess what I'm saying is that there is a REASON a man looks at porn. If it's an issue, that reason needs to be addressed, not just "I don't want you looking at porn, the end." Taking away the media without addressing the psychology is worthless.

Not necessarily insecurity, as I addressed in another post.

Unnatural, no. Unrealistic? Depends. As said elsewhere, men often have a greater libido. There will be times when the wife is unavailable for SF, even if she is willing. Sometimes those can stretch to multiple weeks. You may say to yourself, "well heck, what's a couple of weeks, I can go MUCH longer." Maybe, but you are not him.

Personally, I would much rather viewing porn than pursuing an EA/PA with a real live person. That's just me, though, YMMV.

All I am trying to say in this thread is that some have porn as a separate issue, whereas I see it as any other issue in a marriage that needs to be addressed, such as DJs or AHs.

Not trying to pick on you, but wouldn't you say that men in porn are also degraded? I understand that porn is generally produced for men, but what I have seen does not make me proud for the guys.

I think the best scenario for porn in a relationship is when both partners enjoy it together.

If a wife is not getting enough SF, and her DH is spending more time with 'porn' and his hand than her, she has every right to object.

If he is addicted, misses work for porn, goes to adultfriendfinder, won't save cookies on the computer, etc., wife has every reason to object.

If he verbally compares his wife in a negative way to the women in porn, wife has every reason to object.

If he is keeping his porn use a secret, wife has every reason to object.

Because I enjoy a little now and then, it doesn't bother me that DH enjoys it now and then. He is very open about it. Sometimes we enjoy it together. But it is no way an everyday thing for either of us (sure sign of addiction.)

Personally, I do have a couple of dislikes. We had a huge fight one night because I wanted SF, and he indulged in self-fulfillment to porn. (In the end, it turned out he thought I was sick. He would have rather had me.) So now I can now safely conclude that I do NOT like DH self-fulfilling before coming to bed with me, no matter what. There is a boundary.

One topic for women to discuss when talking about porn with their DHs is that it is a sign that DH is spending too much time with porn if he starts finding himself negatively comparing his wife's body/sexual style to the women in porn -- even if he doesn't say a word, even if it is only in his head, he needs a break. Maybe a long one. Because porn is fantasy, not the real world.

In the end, I believe that the majority of men look at porn. If you can get to a place where your DH can be O&H with you about it, at least then you will know how far it goes. If you say, "Don't look at it!" and shut him out, he'll probably go underground with it.

This is a big deal for some women, and I completely understand -- because personally, I cannot stand being with a man that goes to topless bars or strip clubs. I wouldn't date a man like that, let alone marry one. So I can completely understand why some women find porn highly offensive.

Agreed, if a man chooses porn and self abuse over his living, breathing, loving wife, that's a serious problem. If a man looks at porn because he would rather not do the things it takes to 1) lay the groundwork for his wife being open to meeting his need for SF or 2) get his wife aroused (c'mon men you KNOW that she needs to work up to it)

Then there are serious issues with the marriage that go way beyond porn.

I understand that there are people who think it is never acceptable in any form or circumstance, and I respect that. If you are married to one of these people, you need to determine how to address the reasons why you do it and how to keep both of you satisfied.

Also, anything that is an addiction will kill any relationship, marital or otherwise. Addiction to hobbies, or substance abuse or anything else that kills the love needs to be addressed.

Call me naive, but I think you can look at porn without being addicted, drink without being a drunk, enjoy a hobby without being obsessed.

Well Mr Goodwrench, doesn't sound like you are very much of a marriage builder. And yes, the veto power does give one spouse to say no and have that no respected. If you think you know so much -- go ask Dr. Harley about it yourself. You have your s**t a**backwards and it's jerks like you that screw things up in the first place. Try not to give advice -- your sucks!!!!!!!!!

????

As I understand it, POJA is NOT veto power. It is communication.

Anyone who thinks that a wife telling a husband 'no, you cannot look at it because I say so' will get what she wants is ignoring human nature. As has been suggested, he will just learn how to hide it. Any time one partner demands of the other, that is acting like a parent. And like any child, the non-parent in the relationship will just nod their head yes and hide what they're doing.

Now, if you sit down with your partner and explain what it does to you, and say 'I'm sure you love me more than the kicks you'd get out of that magazine, don't you? So what can the two of us do in the bedroom that makes our R more appealing?' will have a much better chance of success.

fwiw, I think Mr Goodwrench was speaking very logically.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your feedback. Namaste.

Let me point out a couple of things. I am not giving advice here, just my opinion. If I were giving advice, it would be worth every penny I charge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also, if you could tell me to which piece of advice you are referring, it would be more constructive for me. Also, in all things, YMMV. I can only work with what works for me.

As for Dr. Harley and the POJA - let me refer you to the man himself. The following is from the Q&A Trouble with the POJA #2:

I'm not sure you have actually been following the Policy of Joint Agreement. You must do more than just give something up, you must also try to negotiate a solution that meets with the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your wife.

So, I read that to mean no veto power, you may read it differently. If giving your spouse veto power works for you, fantastic. I am very happy for you. I could not do that myself, nor would I expect my wife to agree to such a thing. As always, YMMV.

I think you guys agree on more than you disagree. Let me explain. POJA is temporary veto while a topic is being actively negotiated. Dr. Harley gives a great example, that he doesn't like making a big deal of birthdays, while his wife does. They had no birthday parties for 3 years until they found the win-win. 3 years of birthdays in a small price to pay for a lifetime of happiness, IMO. What do you think?

But you can see how some topics, not all or even many topics, are not open to negotiation for some people, they are boundary issues. Like exclusivity of SF between the two spouses.

Very good post, I had not thought of it in those terms. I guess I should apologize for jacking this thread, from porn to POJA.

Like anything else, this works when both people are mature and caring. LBs will blow a POJA apart.

I think the key here is *temporary* and *actively negotiated*. As long as two people are truly attempting to work out a solution, then the vetoed spouse should be able to live with it. Once again, both have to be mature and caring.

If the vetoing spouse is not negotiating, however, the POJA will fall apart as well.

In your example, I think that three years of active negotiations would wear me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You are correct as well in saying that there are some things that are boundaries, not topics for negotiation. I think one would have to choose those areas wisely however, or you might find yourself in Plan A forever. IMO, porn does not rise to the level of infidelity, or physical abuse. Others may see it differently.

Lastly, don't you think that even if somethings are a boundary, the offending spouse should be given an opportunity to repair the problem? Maybe not in cases of physical abuse (strong boundary for me), but in other cases, saying this way or you're out could result in a lot of divorces.

Call me naive, but I think you can look at porn without being addicted, drink without being a drunk, enjoy a hobby without being obsessed.
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and so do I...because that is how I look at it.
My H, like many H's was a different story......and it wasn't just porn......he justified his lust as "just being a guy" which justified him lusting after, fantasizing about and masturbating to anyone that struck his fancy......all the while keeping me, his wife at a safe emotional distance.....he didn't want to get TOO close to me...didn't want to let me see his vulnerable side......and he justified his porn etc. as something all men do to avoid emotional connection.

One topic for women to discuss when talking about porn with their DHs is that it is a sign that DH is spending too much time with porn if he starts finding himself negatively comparing his wife's body/sexual style to the women in porn -- even if he doesn't say a word, even if it is only in his head, he needs a break. Maybe a long one. Because porn is fantasy, not the real world.

In the end, I believe that the majority of men look at porn. If you can get to a place where your DH can be O&H with you about it, at least then you will know how far it goes. If you say, "Don't look at it!" and shut him out, he'll probably go underground with it.

This is a big deal for some women, and I completely understand -- because personally, I cannot stand being with a man that goes to topless bars or strip clubs. I wouldn't date a man like that, let alone marry one. So I can completely understand why some women find porn highly offensive.
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You make some very good points.
To me...all of this 'stuff' should be out int he open before marriage......a man should not marry thinking he is entitled to porn/strippers etc. to fantasize about on the side unless he has cleared that w/ the woman he intends to marry.

How about if everyone on this thread head over to Resolving Conflict and help out Doom on the thread Help!

porn in MY marriage is unacceptable. period. we have had issues with it- serious ones.... but are working thru it...

What is the issue? Can you elaborate?

Hi cat,

I know you were not asking me to elaborate but I felt compelled to answer because our MCs and a couple of ICs have told my H and I that porn should have NO place in OUR marriage...
because it does have the power to pull MY H away from me and the relationship.
I told MC that I think porn CAN be used in healthy way in marriages and he kinda laughed at me....he believes that it's very rare and that "WE" are not one of those rare couples who can incorporate it into our lives in an honest, open and healthy way.

Thanks, nia. I completely understand that part. I get how bad it can be. It's hard for me, because in our case, it actually helps a little, as strange as that sounds. I'm very inhibited, FOO and all. My H isn't interested in anything/anyone but me. Which is great. But that means that he would like SF every day of the week, and I don't. And when we do, I have found that having it around (video) can sometimes get me to open up and make the event more fulfilling for him. Don't know why, it's just how it works for us. So of course, he's thrilled, LOL. I had a hard time visiting the stores with him to 'pick something out' at first, but I've gotten over that for the most part, just more of that FOO shame-based rearing. We go about once a year. But as odd as it sounds, it's actually given us something to bond over, which is really rare in our relationship.

I know this sounds trite for those who do have trouble with it in their M, but I truly think that it's not about the porn, it's about the puzzle pieces of the couple's R. Very complicated stuff, as in whether a man feels entitlement; whether he feels he's caving or changing to fit a mold (resentment); whether he's really comparing or the woman is just afraid he's comparing; whether the couple has complete O&H about everything; whether one of them lies; FOO issues that one has, that the other hadn't planned on; and, of course, the possibility of addiction or abandoning the true marital relationship in favor of...whatever.

I'm sure if my H was a different person, who flirted and considered affairs and made me doubt he wanted me, I'd be singing another tune. LOL, that's the only thing, well at least the main thing I have going for me in my M - that he wants only me. I'm sure if it made me doubt that or if he was the kind of person who wanted to go in the bathroom and do stuff, I'd be upset, too.

I know this sounds trite for those who do have trouble with it in their M, but I truly think that it's not about the porn, it's about the puzzle pieces of the couple's R. Very complicated stuff
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Doesn't sound trite to me....I completely agree w/ you and I think my MC and ICs would too.
I think it's pretty cool that you and H can be so honest/open about porn/sex and that you feel so safe and confident about his sexual commitment to you....I imagine that is how my H felt about me...LOL

The idea of sharing porn/sex toys etc. always appealed to me....for my H it was something separate from me.....not to be shared w/ me....so, obviously, it is not good for our relationship.

I'm sure if my H was a different person......,I'd be upset, too. I can understand that totally. Problem is my ex was different. He was actually an addict, and Dr. H advised me, under the circumstances,(sounds like a relationship headed for abuse and control) to get away from him. I wasn't inhibited in anyway, but the more we did, the more he wanted. Nothing was ever enough. One week he'd be, "WOW! your the best I've ever had! and then mysteriously, a week later - it just wasn't good enough. The only things I said no to was what hurt physically - anal sex isn't for me; and having a second man in on it - NO WAY!! That just made his porn sites (and sex with him) turn repulsive to me. Hope you all can understand that.

I certainly don't want a relationship with very little sex, my drive is pretty high, but I can't deal with things like that.

Yes... but not at the moment... Just checking in ATM... H had surgery earlier this (late) afternoon, and am trying to be sure he is allright thru out the night. Taking care of him, ya' know? I posted several times- under "4myself", look up those posts (?) maybe a little insight... I will explain more and get into our "issues" soon as I have a chance to spend a little more than 5 minutes on the PC... LOL!

Well..this is kinda a long story...so maybe I will post it in "parts"...porn - with masturbation is totally bad for me... Ex-H was very sick & twisted and VERY ADDICTED to porn....

Part 1: while my H and I were in the earliest stages of our R--the talking & getting to know each other- even before we began dating; I asked his opinion on porn- his response was " don't need it, don't use it/care for it". period. I told him MY POV- I strongly despise it, in any way, because of past history/bad experiences. H (then BF) assured me it would never be an issue.

Part 2: as we were moving in together, He tells me that as I/we are unpacking - that there are some porn mags in a box somewhere in amonsgt his things- if I come accross them, he tells me, just throw it away... as it was long time ago- during his ""single"" days. OK- No problem... found them, never even looked at dates or anything on mags- just pitched-along with a few videos....I had no problem with this- I knew about it in advance. He did not lie to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> continued....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />part 3: LI-BF (live in BF) spends alot of his free time on the PC, internet... is careful to quickly switch away from certain screens when I happen to walk into room... I know many of them were the trashy "Myspace" girlie ads.... but he was looking none the less- and quickly "clicked away" from them as soon as I was near...often times not quite quick enough to prevent me from seeing some of it- w/o his realizing. I was certainly "concerned"...but tried to keep an open mind and be trusting. He had not given me any real reason to suspect any infidelity/etc. I finally expressed to him my distaste for such- and he said he didn't know how to keep it filtered out- so I showed him. things got better, in that arena anyway.

Part 4: still our frequency of SF was very low...and it seemed like I was always the initiator- except rare times he would initiate- usually after getting up to go to the bathroom...and would come back into bed already rock-hard and often with a bit of massage oil or other lube already applied... (so I know he was MB-ing) just to roll me over onto my stomach and quickly finish off... Other times I knew he was simply in the BR too long- and with the sink water running.... then sometimes would come out and cuddle with me from behind- always in a position where I could not touch his genitals.... and when I would try to initiate- he'd turn away and say he didn't want to.....(duh- because he already had- just by himself) I felt SO neglected and unfulfilled... as I myself have a very high drive and desire for making love/having SF with my man.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Part 5: We talked about how things were- and he said sometimes he didn't want to wake me or bother me to have SF...So I told him-- "ALWAYS check with me first- I love SF with you- I would much rather have you make love to me!" also told him "sad thing is--sometimes while YOU are in the Br MB-ing to keep from bothering me- I end up lying alone in bed MB-ing myself because I don't think you want me---what's wrong with this picture???" Things really did get better from there for the most part....then comes--------

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Part 6: He was at work one Saturday and I was doing laundry- looked thru his duffle bag that he usually carries to work with him to see if there's any dirty laundry.....and I found three or four NEW porn mags... I WAS PISSED AND VERY HURT! I confronted him with it- very angrily, and he made every excuse there was-- some of the guys at work gave it to him,,,he'd bought one while out of town working (for 4 or 5 days) stating he just needed "ENTERTAINMENT"... ARRRGH! (porn with MB-ing IS NOT entertainment! IMO) We had quite a fight- emotional and verbal with him getting mad and driving of for awhile..... again- after we'd both cooled down- we tried to talk about it- I was most upset that he had LIED to me about his use/need fro porn- and hid it from me.... things again got a little better for awhile.
Our SF was great -then gradually tapered off again. I tried to keep in mind his long work hours/stress/etc.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />Part 7: Well, we were doing really good, and I finally decided to marry him-- he had shown me no other disrespects in any way- and we genuinely felt a very deep love fro one another.. he had asked me to marry him several times over the past 8-9 monthes and I had refused- I wasn't ready. and he was patient and kind about it. We had a quiet private ceremony and a wonderful wedding nad (short) 2 day honey moon.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Part 8: Well, then right after our wedding, we went thru alot- had to move, he got hurt and had to have surgery.....
He got very depressed and moody--but I stood by him reassuring him all the time that I was there for him and always would be... He got really distant and I was scared as ****** for a litle while...but we made it thru. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Part 9: He goes back to work... things are going pretty good.... SF still is not daily- but is at least 3-4 times week.... so we're doing okay right?

Part 10; I am looking for a blank CD to transfer some pix to for our Xmas cards to go have them printed.... I find a CD full of PORN! obviously downloaded(pix and short vids)- from the internet. They looked to be fairly old...and the box they came out of was his from pre- us, and had been mixe3d in with many of my own disks, and this particular disk was unlabeled... I looked at every image there. I did not like any of what I saw. I was upset, and figured out why he was always so interested in one certain "position" and type of IC.... I was crushed. I felt degraded, used...because I had trusted him and loved him enough to allow us to frequently go with that particular "position"-- and had even begun to like it myself some, too. Shattered, though. The thoughts of it repulsed me anymore. HOWEVER-- I didn't say a word to him- I just erased the disk and reused it for my family xmas card pix. I figured it was just a "leftover" he'd forgotten about being there, and let it go. Later when he came home- he could tell I was upset over something- I tried real hard to chalk it up to nothing, and then told him it wasn't important, so we didn't need to discuss it. But he continued to (gently) prod me about what was bugging me.He finally askedme point blank if it was something HE did...so I had to tell him. I told him I erased it and tried to just let it go- but that it was still bugging me a little..... He admitted it was his, an old one and he had no idea that it was even still in existence. I believed him... He was very sincere, and was very gently attentive to me the rest of the night, making love and holding me. I began to feel better, especially in that I had not blown up at him like before... and I also asked him point blank-if this was something that was an ongoing thing- his use of internet porn-- and he fully denied it. I asked him if I should be concerned with it, he reassured me not. I still felt uneasy...but gave the benefit of the doubt and tried to accept his sincerity and get over my own fears and mistrusts from my EX's days of abusive porn use.....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Part 11: A month or less even, I run out for a short errand one Saturday PM, he didn't wanna go, he had been sick ( had the flu) was getting over it, had refused SF earlier that day "because he didn't feel good".... ok. I came home alot quicker than he anticipated (I'd forgotten something) and walked in on him in front of the computer- watching a porn video and masturbating. I WAS ANGRY AS THE DEVIL! AND HURT- I ran out and into the other room- he followed trying to apologize and hold me- I refused to let him touch me.. I WAS SO HURT!!! -MAINLY BECAUSE HE HAD LIED TO ME... [color:"red"] [/color] and we had a VERY long very intense discussion on the subject once I got to where I could talk to him without being so angry..... I explained to him just exactly- in detail- that I had been thru with my EX-H regarding his addictive and abusive use of porn, and how he'd hurt me with it so badly and so many times. ( I never wanted to have recount any of the instances with my X...) but here- I had no choice. I also told him that MB-g with porn was (at least to me) a form of cheating! He was being unfaithful to me, to us- to our marriage by MB-g with porn- because HE WAS READILY ALLOWING AND USING SOMEONE ELSE- ANOTHER WOMAN- TO GET HIM TURNED ON AND SATISFIED SEXUALLY, NO MATTER THAT IT WAS PICTURES OR VIDEO-IT WAS STILL CHEATING AND INFIDELITY AND IT HURT ME GREATLY. I reminded him of his ex-w cheating on him- and how he felt--- made him look at things a little differently... I guess I really hit a nerve with that one, when I used his own words..."once a cheat-always a cheat"....as that is what he said about his ex.... and how he felt, violated, shattered... He said he's never thought of it that way.... but could see my point and that the last thing in the world he ever wanted to do is hurt me... He admitted that he was "weak" and gave in to the lure... I quickly informed him that he had better buck it up fast and find the strength to stay away from it for good- or he would lose me forever. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He promised to give it up- I asked him if he loved me enough to give it up- and he promised he would... I also demanded ALL of his computer passwords and full access to all files, etc. He gave them to me readily.
We've come a long way since then--although its only been 3 monthes..... but I think he is being true to his word...
I have periodically been checking up on his computer usage......and found nothing. (Thank God and then some...)
I have even asked him point blank if he was "using" again, or any more, and he has said no...I asked him if he would tell me if he did, and he said yes. I told him that the fact that HE HAD LIED to me about it earlier hurt so much worse than the action itself. I stick to that. Especially since HE himself claims to hate a liar more than anything in the world...except maybe a cheat. When he figured out that HE was being just what HE despised most, I think it hit home a little more. He hasn't given any further indication in any way of relapse.... and the biggest problem now- <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> is how I deal with it... I still can't feel like I trust him to be alone with the computer....etc. I am constantly in fear that he will revert to the porn- that he will choose it over me...that I am not what he really wants in a woman-- almost 100% of the women in his porn were very slim, BLONDE and HOT...with flat stomachs and no stretch marks from pregnacy...and no drooping breasts from breast feeding 3 kids.... I feel like I am always being compared to them in his mind, and that I can never live up to any of the standards that they "set" for looks or sex..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and it hurts my self esteem so much. It makes me question my womanhood, my ability to satisfy my own husband... and I often feel as if he is not making love to me- but to any of them in his mind when we are having sex....and it breaks my heart <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />..... so many of the things we did in bed-- I (naively) thought were special to just US, but obviously not. And believe me- I am not exactly a bad catch, either...
I get plenty of compliments from other men, and asked out , too..... So where is it with my own husband???? He rarely compliments me on my looks, and is not very sexual in advances towards me- other than in bed... and he never TELLS me that he finds me attractive, or that he wants to make love to me, and very rarely ever initiates any sexual play-
like coming up and wrapping his arms around me- patting me on the rear-end, sneaking a feel of my breasts... things that I like--- and that make me feel DESIRABLE, WANTED....

Well.... I guess I have made this a long enough series of posts..... but I really needed to get all this out...and HOPEFULLY get some feedback from all ya'll out there.....

Thanks for listening (er- reading) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

You know...I really wish my Husband would read these posts....and many others as well. I've emailed him the links to the website-with out directing him to my posts directly..even printed out the basic principals..and EN
?aires... we've gotten nowhere with those... I know he was going thru ALOT the last 6 monthes- and now a 2nd surgery...
but getting him to talk to me about what he wants/needs in our Marriage is damn near impossible. I know he loves me- he tells that all the time. and is very sincere... I love him with all my heart, too. For the most part- we do have a VERY good relationship- and I cherish all that he does for me, for us for my (our) kids.... I know he was hurt badly before, too...maybe he's just afraid to show too much emotional connection for fear of being hurt again, too. But I really do want to be able to connect with him there...and share all our joys and pains as one... ""That which does not kill me can only make me stronger"' I can't remember who said that, though. I love my H...and I'm sure we'll grow old together.... I just want to be able to make the very best of all the days that we have together.... like I told him before- if I don't know what he wants/needs...then I can't be sure to try to give that to him. I try hard to relay to him where I am, what my needs and wants are...but sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall... I ask for compromise, ways to meet in the middle... but he offers very little input...and often simply states that he is happy with thing just the way they are- yet will complain about something --and not be able to explain to me just what the issue is or how we can adjust to make it better... Maybe I'm just reading too much into ways to fix problems that don;t really exist???? any input here would be greatly appreciated. THX

Hi 4Better!

I have some input- I am dealing with the same thing in my own marriage. But I was wondering if you could tell me: what is your current strategy for handling your husband's porn use?

I'll check back later!
~Saturn

I am being very careful first off, to try to keep my own fears & mis-trust in check- you know- the Demons/Ghosts from my past from causing me to just go totally mad with letting the issue consume me.

Secondly, I try to keep an open communication going between me and my H about everything- as much as possible. It's hard sometimes... on both counts... but I know that He truly is sincere and honest in his love for me, and I know it (porn use) can be so very tempting and "in your face" everywhere- even in the check out line at the grocery store- some of the men;s mags--- "Maxim", "Stuff", etc.....right out there, and every tv commercial, every billboard sign---it all promotes it, after all, ""Sex sells"" right? I know I can't make it all go away... but I can (at least do my best) to manage how I deal with things ( I do have a tendency to overreact at first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> but I am trying- and I am slowly learning to trust him again... thus far he has not given me any further reason not to.

I have not threatened him, belittled him nor punished him in any way for his trespasses... I do try to keep him up on my feelings and my fears.... He doesn't usually have much to say himself- but he is just that way...

I really want to ask him more about what attraction there is for him in the porn- and what he really gets out of it... but I don't want to push and seem like I am dwelling too much on the negative, I wanna move forward and look more to reinforce the positive behaviours. (kinda like in training kids- you know? LOL!)

I am making my strongest efforts to keep a positive outlook and to continue to love him- to the best of my ability-- the "loving by choice" thing... I have not made any changes in how I have treated him, I still do all the caring things and loving gestures that I always have... perhaps even a little more so, especially in letting him know that I love him, I find him very attractive & sexy...and that I do enjoy and very much want to have a full and satisfying sexual relationship with him ALONE... and I've made a point to ask him what he wants, what he needs..... and I do try to accomodate his wishes ( when I can get him to actually speak it) as much as I feel comfortable doing- and let him know where there is a point that I am uncomfortable with anything.

Basically- we do have a very good sexual relationship, I am more comfortable with him than I ever have been with anyone else... and I enjoy a variety of positions, oral sex- giving as well as recieving (although I do give ALOT more than I recieve!), and even sometimes anal sex... He's always gentle and tender with me... never "rough" or forceful.

I would really like to be more sexually active with my Husband- make love to him 2-3 times a day every day if we could!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He doesn't have quite the same level of drive as I do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but ya know.... it is where it is. I guess that just makes the good times even that much better !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So- how about you, Saturn? How's things in your Relationship and how do you deal? and what other input can you offer? anything is much appreciated!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is the key. Every behavior has a payoff. Even (especially) the ones that are self destructive or hurt others. This is easily written, not so easily done. He may not even know what the payoff is. It could be a lot of things, control, boredom, etc. I could almost guarantee he does not take it as seriously as you.

Good luck.

Hi again 4better!

I'm glad you wrote about your approach. I went back and read the posts from when you first came here and I thought I saw a trend. From what I gather, you're in your mid-thirties and this is your third marriage. Your first husband was addicted to porn/drugs and was abusive, your second husband was controlling and abusive as well. Your third husband has shown some signs of hidden porn usage, and you're worried about repeating history.

I like the way you are approaching the issue with your current husband- your post is about you not him (that shows your focus is where it should be!) You are trying to keep calm, working to provide honest communication, and pursuing intimacy with your husband because you want it (not to distract him from other outlets). Good for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To find out what your husband gets out of porn, I highly recommend reading Patrick Carne's book "Out of the Shadows". Your husband may not understand why he does this- it is probably a visceral reaction he perfected over many many years. He just knows porn makes him feel better- he may not understand "why" and he also may not grasp the negative aspects of turning to porn while also being married.

The only thing you didn't mention was your boundaries. What are you willing to accept, and where is the "line" drawn for consequences? If your husband is addicted to porn, he will continue and the behavior will escalate until he's motivated to change. If he's not addicted, then he'll stop easily and won't lie or hide his actions from you. You'll be able to tell the difference.

My husband has an addiction, and we're both in a 12-step program to recover. The program really helps me- it is such a relief to know I'm not alone and to have a clear plan. I felt lost for so long. I have hope now, and I know I'll be ok no matter what my husband chooses to do about his problem.

Best wishes and hope to you!
~Saturn

I agree with Saturn. I think professional help of some form is in order, because he clearly has a mental 'need' for doing it. You can't just go all controlling on him, he'll just hide better. So if you approach him with full honesty - and NO judgment - and say 'let's make this work' he'll likely be grateful to finally be able to be honest about it.

Honestly? I would print out your posts here, hand them to him on a good night, and just sit and wait for him to talk. Before I did that, though, I would research agencies or whatever are in your area where you can book some appointments to discuss it with a professional. Again, in a non-judgmental way. Make sure you couch it in terms of 'I want a full, happy, HONEST marriage with you, and as much SF as I can get! Let's work together to make that happen.'

It may be that there is something about you that is keeping him from wanting to engage in SF as much as you want. But if so, you need to know it, right?

View this as any other problem in your M that you would solve together. But it sounds like it really may take a bit of counseling, especially on his part, to get to the root of why he needs it so much. Good luck.

Thanks for your frank reply...
That is how I feel-that there is something about me that is keeping him from wanting to engage in SF as much as I want..
and yes- THAT would very well be the best place to start--finding out what and why... if you can't identify the problem, you can't take measures to repair it very well, now can you?

...as to him "needing it so much".... I'm not sure really just how much-how often he has used it! I did ask- and he told me maybe less than once a month- every couple of monthes or so ????? I'd like to believe that- a part of me does...but he DID lie about before, didn't he?

...also, I once asked him if he had ever been with a woman who was SO sexually attracted to him- and wanted to make love with him as much as I do-- his reply was "No"... I remember something about asking him if he knew how to handle it (me & my appetite for SF--with him) and he was at loss... said he wasn't sure really how to deal with it... a clue, maybe????

Another thing-- his ex-wife #1 LTR, was VERY into porn- and he told me that SHE had gotten him into it.... They lasted less than 2 full years... from what I hear from him and his family- she was very manipulative, deceitful and conniving. She DID take him for a real ride financially- left him in MAJOR debt....

His live-in GF, LTR #2; lasted less than 2 years all together as well...she was sleeping around on him- and made little effort to hide it evidently, nearer the end, another one who USED him--he worked 2 jobs to support her and her 3 kids... while she was sleeping with the owner and trainer where she kept her horse boarded, H paid for boarding as well as the animal...

Another "trend" in relationships.... maybe he views sex as a woman's way of getting close enough to him to really break him..... (can't say I blame him) and maybe because of these "ghosts"... he has trouble feeling SAFE with the emotional and full sexual aspect of OUR relationship... hhhmmmmmmmm.....

You're right... I am 36, he is 33... and correct on my Ex's behaviours--and my VERY REAL fears of a reapeat of history...


I made it clear to him that porn- of any kind in any amount is STRICTLY and totally unacceptable in our home and our marriage. I did have to reiterate that a couple of times- as well as explain in detail WHY I felt that way( which was really hard for me and brought back more bad memories than I'd care to have remembered)... He seemed to comprehend that better- and seemed genuinely regretful for hurting me with his use of the porn...and told me that he loved me and did not want to ever hurt me or lose me, and that he was willing to give it up altogether for me- because I mean more to him than porn... he did even show deep emotion-- he cried, actually after my full disclosure of my past and why I despised porn and felt so hurt and betrayed by his use and(moreover--his LYING about it) and I did tell him that there was a point where he would have to choose- it or me- period. I know that he knew just how serious I was in that.

As for my boundaries in actual SF with my Husband... as long as he is gentle, considerate and understanding--I am willing to do or at least try pretty much anything WITH HIM. He has been all those things with 99.9% of the time we have been together. I have felt safe, comfortable and unashamed to want/need and enjoy SF with him.... His LYING about his use of porn has really impacted the way I feel about that, now-- but I do try to keep that under control-- and keep my stance on loving him in whatever ways I can... because I am sure that if I were so repulsed that I denied him any SF...he would surely with draw further and revert to more porn usage. So I have been diligent in keeping my statements directed towards the fact that he LIED about it,and that it was the porn that I despise--not him...and certainly not that he used porn to replace SF with me...I have also asked him if there were things that I/we were not doing that he would prefer to do---ie, as in some of the porn videos, etc... I've tried to let him know that He could ask me for anything that he wanted, and that I would try to accomodate those wishes, within reason in order to keep him satisfied and coming back to ME for his his SF....

Well.... I guess I have said quite a mouthful, here...give you all some time to digest and formulate a response...
Thanks again...

I am sure he doesn't...:( does any man take things like this as seriously as their female partners?

and I agree- it is much easier said than done--anything worthwhile usually is...anything "right" usually is harder to do...

and yes--making a big deal out of the negative aspects in most any situ will tend to reinforce the negativity... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

and luck has nothing to with things...it's a state of mind, being determined and focused with dedication towards achieving a goal that creates the real accomplishment.

Thanks for your input.... insightful and to the point...

I probably should let this topic die, but I thought that maybe I had another insight.

First thing is about addiction: Anytime you are addicted to something, all bets are off. Take alcohol for example. I am a social drinker, but not an alcoholic. If you are or were married to a drunk, I can see where you don't want alcohol to have any part in your life. I still maintain that you can drink (or look at porn) without being addicted. If you are an addict, the solution is beyond me. I don't know what cures (or treats) an addiction.


Second is the concept that men and women look at the issue differently. From what I have read, women tend to think the worst about what men are thinking while looking at porn. Men generally don't give any thought to the things that women fear most about porn. (Not true of ALL men, esp. addicts). I remember reading in another post about a woman not caring that her H was masturbating, but was angry he was doing it with porn. My first thought was, I bet he's running a porn movie in his head while masturbating even if he isn't looking at any. I really fail to see the difference in imagination and media, from a psychological POV.

Third, I think that I know what SOME men get out of it. It has to do with arousal, and the fact that women and men are aroused differently. What men get is STIMULATION. Depending on a man's drive, and circumstances of his M, it's possible that men use porn to make up the "stimulation gap" he may be feeling. I don't say this to blame women, but sometimes a woman may be unwilling or unable to stimulate her H. Men are visual, and if a woman prefers to do it with the lights out, or doesn't like wearing sexy clothes, or *ahem* change the scenery from time to time, then a man may be getting his visual stimulation from porn.

Delving even further into an idea that is unpopular, women, being stimulated differently, sometimes use other media for "romantic stimulation". Most men couldn't care less about this, do not feel threatened by this, and are rarely worried about comparison.

I think that just as anything can come BETWEEN a couple, porn can do this. But it doesn't have to.

While I am less interested in porn than my DH, I have shared the experience with him some. It can be a neat and different starting point for exploration in your sexual relationship together. We talk about what parts we like, what we don't like, how we feel about it...etc.

I also see it as Mr. Goodwrench said, a "different" kind of stimulation for a man. Just like I may want sweet nothings to turn me on, he may like visual stimulation. I think it only becomes a real problem when the woman sees it as a substitution for her, a threat so to speak, and therefore something that comes between them. I'm not saying that everyone should or can accept porn as a part of their marriage, but I think it can have a place if both partners use it and see it in it's place.

Definatley stimulation is a primary factor, I agree most men are visually stimulated...whereas most women are not... I however, am against the norm in so many ways, I guess. I too- am very visually stimulated, I like to have the lights on when we make love, I like to see him, undress him, I like to see the look on his face as he looks at me....I do try to wear sexy things- things that I know he likes....and change things up- scenery- a bit as well... take it to the office, the living room (if the kids are staying over somewhere else) wherever--- whenever-- not just "planned" SF...




Perhaps this is true... but if there were something that I was doing/taking part in that made my H feel uncomfortable, unsafe, threatened-- I would be more than willing to give it up should he ask me. To me, it's a point of respect of each other, marriage and a question of appropriateness.

Also, I have 2 crucial points, here--from my own POV and relationship; 1st is that there are/must be boundaries; I do not feel safe where porn of use... therefore, I must ask of him to give it up, for me- for us- for our marriage. NOT just because I don't like it... but because it makes me feel VERY unsafe, uncomfortable and distrustful... albeit, much of which is caused by my previous experiences with my XH and his sick and twisted addictions to porn.... Secondly- LYING will not be tolerated in my marriage; from any POV, for any reason- and H LIED to me about it, THAT hurt me more than the actual use of the pornography- the fact that he LIED to me... that broke my trust, and my heart.

I did ask him if he would be willing to give up the porn-- for me, for our relationship. for our marriage... He said "yes".... and --so far as I can tell--- he has done as he said he would.

We talked about the honesty involved, and made promises to each other to ALWAYS BE COMPLETELY HONEST with each other... That is the only way, I believe, to keep our marriage safe and our relationship strong and true. i love my Husband with all my heart, and I know he loves me as well.....

HTM,
you are right, it CAN be acceptable and useful as a tool in a relationship---provided that BOTH partners agree, accept and are mutually comfortable with the use of it. I see no problem with that kind of agreed upon use and stimulation if that is what a couple wishes to SHARE TOGETHER. Just my POV...

4Better, I just wanted you to know that I appreciate your input on this subject. You have given me some insight into this issue that I had not had before.

Thankfully, I have not been in a relationship with any kind of addict in my life, and your description has helped me gain some understanding.

Mr Good Wrench...
Glad my posts could be of some , however little, benefit...
Would you mind elaborating on just what specifically you gained???

I have to wonder why you would "have to respect her opinion."
There is no reason you would have to do that. Continue to love her, of course. But you certainly would be allowed an opinion in total disagreement with hers. And you would be justifed in expressing it.

I have four daughters and, at the very least, I would be disappointed should they choose the making of pornography as a 'career'. They haven't and won't. But I would certainly have an opinion in opposition to theirs if they were considering it. I would exert whatever influence I could to discourage it.

Sometimes I feel you live in a moral vacuum. You seem to have no firm convictions about the right and wrong of very much.

If she decided that robbing banks was a good way to 'earn a living' would you 'have to respect her opinion'. I mean, you might just as well say," Afterall, banks will be robbed anyway so my daughter may as well reap some of the benefits of robbing banks."

I'd respect her opinion because I know I've raised her to be intelligent and fairly wise for a teenager (so far), and because if she becomes an adult and chooses that career, then it's her choice. I'd be disappointed, too, if she chose that because (1) of the sleezeballs she'd be working with and (2) she has great talents that will take her far in other pursuits. But bottom line, if she were to decide that doing porn was fun for her (tho I can't imagine how, since she barely likes to kiss yet) and what made her happy to get up in the morning and go to work, then more power to her. That's my job as her mother - to teach her to go for what makes her happy, instead of what society says she should do. I watched my brother choose accounting over teaching history, for the money, and he's woken up miserable every day of his life since.

I have very firm convictions about MY view of right and wrong. They just don't align with yours. Are they, therefore, wrong? Please explain that. If you were Baptist and I was Buddhist, would you tell me I'm going to h&ll because I'm not a Baptist?

In my view - child porn and addiction aside - sex is a very natural and important part of human life. To hide the fact that it goes on, to assign shame to anyone who involves in it as a business, IMO is self-righteous and close-minded. So very many people come on this site and say they love sex. It's so important that it can ruin marriages. Why then, is watching people act out a sex act in a video - which they're doing for money like any other job - reprehensible? Because some people say it's sinful? What about the thousands of other nationalities around the world who don't hold to our Puritanical view of sex? Are they all miscreants, deviants, sinful, for openly enjoying sex and letting it be a healthy part of their lives?

Is it because the person whose partner is watching it somehow feels...less...when their partner adds porn to his/her life? Then it isn't about porn or sex - it's about ego. Or fear.

fwiw, as far as I know, making porn is not illegal? And it's not taking something that belongs to someone else. No one is forced to watch porn. So it's hardly the same as robbing banks.

My daughter is hopefully going to grow up with a healthy love for and appreciation of sex. We raise our kids expecting that. Why then, should we instantly assign shame to them if they choose to have fake sex in a film, or show off their body for a camera? You can argue that it's because porn can be involved in bad activities, like addiction, but then, I've seen marriages disintegrate on these boards for people getting addicted to video games. Would you shame someone for playing them? They could possibly become addicted. Would you shame someone for loving chocolate and gaining 200 pounds?

The real issue here is whether you consider sex/porn to be a sin, I guess. You may. I don't. I think it's part of life and to pretend people don't do it, and don't enjoy porn as an enhancement to their sex life, is naive. Just like "Just Say No" and the abstinence campaigns were naive and utter failures.

Cat, your post begs a response and I will as soon as I have prepared one.

You do pose an interesting concept, however, which I was never aware of until now. That it is possible to have 'FAKE' sex. Im curious,if you will, does this mean that if a child should be conceived as a result of having 'fake'sex, is it then a 'fake' embryo developing into a 'fake' human being? And should one of the participants contract a sexually transmitted disease, is it only a 'fake'disease without consequences? And if ,as a result of being saturated with pornography, a man stalks a woman and rapes her, is it a 'fake' rape?

Cat, have you ever considered that maybe you or anyone else- me included -may not be qualified to set the standards of what is right and wrong, good and evil? Maybe the 'game of life' is best played by the rules established by the Creator of the game from the beginning. Just maybe this is so. These forums are testimony to what often happens when we try to play the game by our own rules. You don't believe the 'game of life' is 'fake' too do you?
I never considered that. But maybe it is.

But what if it's not? It might be a risk to big to take. I'll give it some thought.

Have a good day, cat.

ICH, you're the one who said you think I don't know right from wrong. I never claimed to know your version; only mine. I never tried to tell you what your or anyone else's right/wrong was - only explain mine. You can write cute as much as you want, but I'm not playing any game, I'm not trying to change anyone's rules, I'm merely defending my opinion against your supposition that I'm immoral.

As for rules for the game of life, what is it you think I'm trying to change? Am I shoving it down your throat? Let me ask again; if some other religion than whatever you are doesn't have the same rule you go by - I assume you're saying your religion is against pornography - does that mean their religion is null and void because it doesn't espouse what yours does? Why?

For your question, if a child were conceived, it was conceived by two adults who knew what they were doing. Just like any other two adults who are practicing SF run the risk of a child, who may or may not want one - all adults, all running the same risk; why is the former worse than the latter? Because they were doing what you consider sinful at the time? Are unmarried adults no less sinful? Same goes for STD.

As for rape, I would venture that, since rape is really about control and not about sex, most occurrences will have less to do with porn than mental issues.

4Better:

I learned a lot from reading your posts about your H's porn usage, and how you felt about it. Like I said before, men tend to see it differently. Your strict "no porn" boundary helped me understand how some people feel about it.

Particularly interesting was some of the associations that you had with porn, although I would hope that not all men who view porn are abusive. I would feel much as you do about your H not engaging in SF, but MBing with porn. I have no experience with this, as in 22 years I have never turned Mrs G down.

I do maintain that MBing as a substitute for SF is a bad idea with or without porn. Like I said, even without porn, a man will have a porn movie running in his head while MBing.

The most interesting thing, to me was how important the concept of radical honesty is, even in the beginning.

You said that early on, you asked H about porn, that you were totally against it. That was radical honesty, you let him know up front. He said he didn't do it, and he was NOT honest about it, he told you what he thought you wanted to hear. I think you made it clear that this was a boundary for you.

He apparently WAS into porn, and since he knew how you felt about it, lied to you and tried to hide his porn use. Had he been honest, I think the two of you could have saved a lot of time and heartbreak. He may have thought that he was protecting you, but in blew up in his face, and yours too.

Ok - going out on a limb here, and if anyone throws this back in my face, I'm just going to ignore you, so there!

One of my issues has been that I have dismissed the feelings of people if I thought their feelings were wrong or irrational. Reading your posts sort of took me out of a direct situation, and helped me to understand that while I may not agree with the way someone feels, their feelings are still valid, and need to be treated with the same respect I would want someone to pay to MY feelings. I could see that while I did not see porn the same way you did, I could see the effect it had on you. Just because I am comfortable with something, does not mean everyone else might be. I will say, for the record, that my own viewing is rather rare, maybe 5-10 times a year, sometimes with Mrs G, sometimes not, but she does not have an issue with it. (I will also say that I did it somewhat opposite from your H, I would show Mrs G something I liked on a tape BEFORE we did it. It was a way to feel her out on her feelings about trying it.)

In short, your sharing has been both instructional and a growth opportunity for me.

Thanks

Cat, you seem to be becoming rather defensive. But you negected to elaborate on your reference to pornographic sex being 'FAKE'sex. Do you really think it can be 'FAKE'? How would you differentiate 'FAKE' sex from 'GENUINE' sex?

I have never used the word 'religion' yet you persistently make use of the word.

As for your position which you are claiming to defend I merely attempted to raise the bar by suggesting that perhaps we don't have a just right to establish our own rules for certain interpersonal behaviors. I may have suggested you were amoral but not immoral.

You refer to 'your' standards of right and wrong. Fair enough. But that's all they are. Yours. You said you wouldn't condone child pornography. I presume 'your' rules include a prohibition against such. But I have talked with pedophiles who would defend their position in favor of child pornography. Afterall, they have 'their' rules just as you do. So then if you tell one of them how you felt about child pornography I suppose that 'wouldn't' be trying to shove something down their throat. Of course not. And they would be justified in telling you that it must be your 'religion' that compels you to feel the way you do.

I wasn't shoving anything down you throat -as you put it-. I was only suggesting that it's quite possible, even probable, we don't have the authority to create our own rules regarding certain matters. There might be an higher authority than ourselves.

I am not trying to write 'cute'. Nor did I say you were playing any game. That was just an expression.

I see you have accepted the notion that rape is more about control than sex. That has been around for quite a number of years now but it wasn't always understood that way. Rape requires the rapist to take and maintain control-that's a given. But what happens once he has control is about sexual gratification. Insistant, selfish sexual gratification. Else, once he has control why not stop there. Then it wouldn't be rape, only unlawful restraint. How could you, a woman, fall for such tripe. It's about sex. The control is the rapist's foreplay.

Later......

Why do you think I'm being defensive? Because I'm answering you? I just don't want to leave your comments for all to read and think that your way of thinking is the only way.

As for your question about fake, I was trying not to get too graphic, but since you asked...for one thing, if the actors are actually doing the deed, they're doing it with 20 crew members around them, so the moaning and excitement and pleasure...is fake. For another, there are two types of porn, at least from the little I know: soft core and hard core. In the soft core, the kind that runs on HBO at night, you never see genitalia. In other words, they are dry humping and pretending to have sex...thus fake sex.

Yet you keep talking about higher authorities, greater hands than ours...what else are you talking about except religion? Is there another higher authority than God I'm not aware of?

Why don't we have the right to decide what our own rules for interpersonal behaviors are, if they are just that - interpersonal between two consenting adults? What business is it of yours or my neighbor or my mother what I do with my husband in the bedroom? Amoral, immoral, your implication is that I am less...right...than you. Whatever.

If I were to talk to a pedophile, the subject of religion would never come up, as it has nothing to do with my opinion on child pornography. My opinion on the devastation pedophiles wreak on children would come up. And the legal aspect. But even then, I wouldn't be trying to shove my opinions down their throat because that would be stupid and pointless. If anything, I'd be studying them to determine how they came to that point, so that I could share that knowledge with people who might have a chance to stop another from becoming a pedophile.

And I never said my standards are anyone else's, did I? I never told you to adopt my standards. Personally, my rules/standards are to hurt no other person and not break the law, among others. What I do in my bedroom does not affect anyone else, nor should it.

If you want to talk about pedophiles, then talk about them. But they have nothing at all to do with my personal standards of what I consider right or wrong. A pedophile will desire children whether he has a Playboy in front of him or not. Are you trying to say that porn turns people into pedophiles? um, ok.

um, ok. I didn't bring up a weeks-old post of yours and tell you that you were amoral.

Please explain how your view on what those 'rules' are is better or more correct than my view. Is there a video somewhere of God sitting in Heaven explaining what is allowed and what is not? No? Then how do you know that what you believe those rules are, is more correct than what I believe? That's why I keep asking you why your opinion or belief is any more valid than some person in some other country who doesn't follow your standards? Are you more right than them? Why? Are you, are we Americans, the only people getting the 'real' truth about what all humans should be doing? Are Europeans who sunbathe topless amoral as well, because they show their breasts, even though the people of Europe don't have a problem with it? Who decides what is right for all people?

If you say so. I can copy the phrasing back, if you like, but, like everything else, it is subjective. My cute is your expression.

Men beating their wives wasn't always understood as abuse and challengable in court, either, in fact not even 30 years ago. That doesn't mean the old way was more correct. We've had 30 more years of research on it...and more research on rape as well.

I fall for such tripe, as you say (cute words, btw), because I maintain an open mind and am always willing to learn more about a subject. If the argument or logic is good enough, I will change my opinion.

As for why not stop there? Because men were created to have a large sex drive to keep the species populated. Once the system was put in place, IMO, God left us to our own devices to choose good or evil. Some choose good, some choose evil. Men who would rape are screwed up individuals, and it's not hard to imagine that they lack the moral guideposts or self-control to differentiate between the act of control and the driving force of the physical sensations they are experiencing. Men get turned on just looking at a girl walking by; by the time a rapist has corraled a victim, the act of rape is no longer about fixing his own wreck of a life and proving he's the 'man' and wins at king of the mountain, it's about pushing his agenda forward and exhibiting his anger at the world and getting everything he wants and 'deserves.'

Cat, You don't seem able to get the feel of my style so I am going to let it be. You can believe whatever you want and do as you please. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Except you asked....




Cat, I don't have all the answers. But I know Who does. And God is omnipresent so why limit Him to sitting in any particular location. That I know of there is no video as you propose but-and you well know-there is the Bible. And, no , sunbathing bare breasted is not specifically covered but the subject of modesty is mentioned. You draw you own conclusions.






By the way, you will notice the my use of the word 'cute' was taken from your post. I was not my original expression as you said.

And one last thing: You may not agree, and you are free not to, but one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess He is Lord. And since that is an absolute, you would be wise to strive to align your standards with His.

Oh my goodness, Cat, I think I would go into mourning if one of my daughters went into porn. I don't think I'd have a peaceful day until they quit. I would need one HECK of a plan to keep from hiding in bed every day with a gallon of ice cream :eek:

Oh my gosh, what if a coworker came into work and recognized her from her photo on my desk. "Hey, isn't that the redhead from Big Bazongas 12?"

I don't think a regular guy would want to date a woman who used to do porn unless he has issues of his own, and even then he wouldn't see the woman as an equal, but rather some poor, pathetic creature to rescue in return for eterna gratitude. There are some guys here, am I wrong? Do ex-porn actresses make attractive mates?

For that matter, what woman wants to date some potentially disease-ridden male porn actor?

I don't know anyone's who's done that, but I've met women who used to strip, and none of them had any self esteem at all. I don't think that's a coincidence.

I'm sorry, ears, I just don't attribute the shameful, sinful horrendous stigma to porn that most of you seem to. Maybe it's because I grew up watching my Dad reading Playboy - and he was a perfectly normal male, sitting in his armchair, looking at pictures and - yes - reading the articles, LOL. I didn't see some perverted guy hiding in the bathroom jerking off to it.

And when MrCat worked at an electronics company, he often sold to strip clubs, and I went along with him some times. The people there, when they weren't up on stage or dancing for some guy, were just people, just like you and me, doing a job. They weren't all insideous, snarling, mustache-twirling villains - they were just people trying to earn a buck.

When I was in college, I had to do make a film, so I interviewed a stripper at a local strip joint. She was working there as she went through college. She was one of the most level-headed, self-assured people I've ever met in my life. Her attitude was, 'if some idiot is going to pay me good money to swish my tail in his face, more power to him. I wouldn't blow my money that way, but I'm sure not gonna tell him not to.' She made more money back then, 20 years ago, part time, than I make now, after 20 years in the workforce. Seemed pretty smart to me.

Like I said, I hope D17 wouldn't pick that for a career, but in the grand scheme of things, compared to becoming a drug addict or a con artist or a black widow...if she ended up having a truly carefree attitude about sex and looked at it as just another job...who am I to tell her there's something wrong with her? I'm not trying to say it's some pollyanna universe. I understand the downside of the industry. I'm just trying to counter the common notion around here that porn industry people are the scum of the earth. If you've seen any of the documentaries about it, or read articles, it's an industry just like any other; the main part of it is self-regulated with rules and standards, such as STD testing and age requirements and cleanliness, etc.; of course, the underbelly, just like the underbelly of other industries, is seedy and gross. But to paint the entire industry as filled with bottomfeeders is erroneous. Just trying to point that out.

Maybe it's because I grew up being made fun of, maybe it's because of what my stepmother did to me, but I learned long ago to not guide my life based on fear of what people might say about me or my family.

I figured you would say that, so I will share my opinion. The people in the Bible did not speak English. Their interactions took place thousands of years ago, when one person in a thousand could read and write, in a language that was not English. What people did back then was to repeat and remember - and then teach their children to memorize the same information - again, not in English; and their children, and their children, and their children, unless they were lucky enough to run across someone who not only could read and write but who had writing materials with them. At that point, it would be written down - not in English. When it all finally got written down, it eventually got translated, and not just once, until it came into English. And then it got translated into the King James version, which was known for being politically motivated.

So when you tell me that your authority for what God wants is the Bible, I would ask: are you using the original text from 3 languages ago, which is the closest we have to what actually took place?

I'll ask again: if the Europeans, who also are mostly Judeo-Christian and follow the Bible, do not have an issue with toplessness, how do we have two different assignations to what is modesty? Are you saying the entire continent just decided to chuck that part, because they wanted to look at breasts? Or is it because their definition of modesty is different from yours? So again, I will ask: why is the definition of right and wrong that you ascribe to God more correct than the definition of right and wrong that someone from Europe or some other place would ascribe? Could it be because when the Bible was translated into their languages, the very subtle nuances in language don't bring about the exact wording that you cling to as proof of your belief?

I'm not saying your version is wrong for you; I'm saying you don't have the only true answer that everyone should follow. You're welcome to follow your truth, as everyone else is welcome to follow theirs.

I never said that YOU used the word cute. Please reread. I was responding to your comment about my response. You made the comment about your words just being your expression, as opposed to being cute. I was trying to point out how you were writing cute (i.e., writing wittily and condescendingly; passive aggressive).

What makes you think I don't subscribe to Christianity? Because, in your opinion, my beliefs are not Christ-worthy enough? I happen to be Lutheran, baptized in the Baptist church and converted to Lutheran when I married. I go to church every week, and every week I pray, I take communion, I volunteer, I tithe, I help people every time I see an opportunity, and I never knowingly hurt anyone. The couple times I have hurt someone's feelings, I have immediately apologized, owned my responsibility, and offered to make amends. From what I see, the only instance in which you can claim that I am not as much as, or more, pious than you is our difference of opinion on pornography. I think I've aligned my standards just fine, thank you.

A good book which covers this topic is C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity", which covers this difference between modesty and chastity. They are not the same. Modesty is a function of the man made social norms of the time, whereas chastity is about a healthy attitude toward sex. Think of it this way, if everyone were topless, there would be so sexual excitement associated with it.

As for the Bible, my opinion is to be careful with what it actually says and what my *interpretation* of what it says. Much of it, particularly the OT, has man made admonitions that IMO, are NOT the command of God. We've been sent a guide, but we were also given brains, so it is our duty to use them.

cat, I hear you, that others see this differently. The ex-strippers I worked with were out of it, so understandably may feel differently than someone still in it.

I think both of us raised our daughters to not even consider this as an option, so it's kind of a moot point. I think our kids are looking to do something that they feel good about, not to make the quick buck, and know how to speak up for themselves instead of being bullied around by bottom-feeders. They know they're not alone, that God is bigger than any problems they face. To stick to their values even when the going is harder than they think they can handle. To find joy in today instead of chasing money they couldn't make in everyday jobs.

Anyhow, I guess I got way off topic.

About the toplessness, men go around topless doing yardwork and at the beach, and women still find them attractive when they get home That said, topless bathing isn't something I'm persoanlly comfortable with, and probably wouldn't feel comfortable even if I was covered and just other folks were topless, but I don't think that correlates with my personal spirituality. I felt that way even before I found religion.

Interesting thread, I just now found it. Haven't read through all the posts yet but I wanted to weigh in and am interested in comments.

In my 1st M, my XH read a lot of porn mags. Well, some, I dunno what means a lot. When I got upset he started hiding them from me. When he left, he packed his precious mags in his suitcase. *roll eyes if it still existed*

My 2nd and current H doesn't look at mags, at least I don't think so. Once, to try to spice things up a bit, I suggested he rent a porn movie for us and he did. *ouch* it was a huge turn-off for me! I say ouch b/c the women all had these really long fingernails and high heals and were doing things that looked to me like they would be painful - those fingernails! I just kept cringing and could NOT get in the mood. :eek:

I could think of other movies that would turn me on more. They're prolly PG-rated.

I don't think I'd be too offended if he *occasionally* looked at porn. I'd probably feel disconnected to him if he was interested in things I wasn't though, so that might be an LB.

Surprisingly, a couple weeks ago I snooped at his browser history and found that he'd been visiting an amateur porn site. I didn't click to see what page he'd viewed because then it would've showed up in his history as very recent.

A lot of times before, I've noticed that his browser history only went back 3 or 4 days, even though his preferences are set up for at least a week - which means he's been clearing his history manually.

What do you guys think? Should I be worried? He spends so much time on the computer that I often feel neglected, but I'm guilty of spending too much time online too, mostly here.

It isn't the porn that bothers me so much as the lack of attention toward me and our M.

We have sex less often than I would've thought I'd be having. We're both very busy and stressed, and I seem to be in perimenopause which makes it hard to predict when "that time of the month" will be.

I guess I should initiate sex more often and more enthusiastically, right? Any comments?

I think you've got the right of it. It's not about what he's doing with porn so much as what he's NOT doing with you!

Are you in a rut? I find that in most cases, that is the biggest culprit. Lack of talking, lack of continuing to learn about each other, lack of new places to go and things to see...basically just taking things for granted. Especially if kids are involved.

I've always believed you have to keep acting like you're dating, to keep the marriage (and the sex) good. You have to be interested in each other!

Can you make a concerted effort to spice up your life? Not just the love life, but the life itself? Make a goal to visit every museum within a 100-mile radius - gives you tons of stuff to talk about! Scan the web for any and every event going on in your area - including amateur plays, college sports events, grand openings, wine tasting courses, church round robin dinner events...there are hundreds of opportunities out there, if we just look for them. We went to a baseball game today. I made a concerted effort to hold MrCat's hand every chance I got, to hug him, to keep his arm around me, to make the event memorable. To feel like we were dating again.

I really think the good sex will come after all that. You'll be so excited to be spending time with each other, that that excitement will translate into the bedroom.

Hi, Jayne... Yep- I'll bite... Got a few comments....




HOW you deal with this info will determine alot-- I personally would be very worried- but that is just me. IMHO- YES, he could definately be spending more time with you! My H, as well- spends ALOT of time online-- though usually playing a WOW game or researching the latest guns and ammo! Again- how the two fo you handle the info you have discovered, may determine alot. I personally would discuss it with him- calmly and in non-judgemental/accusatory way. He should NOT be hiding anything from you- for any reason! This goes in with the Radical Honesty and open communications facets of a relationship. Try asking him--if you want to, and talk him about your thoughts, wishes, desires, find out what his might be... work TOGETHER to find an acceptable level of use, trust, boundaries, etc.


Stress and the hectic days of life in general can really wreak havoc on any relationship. My H and I try to make time for US, talk alot, and work on ways to de-stress and reconnect....
As for the unpredictability... just do what you feel like- when you feel like it! Are either of you against period-sex? With a few "modifications" even that can be enjoyable and not so messy. I use the "INSTEAD" feminine "cups". They work kinda like a diaphragm- and you can have sex with them in-- or swim, etc.




--Of course! BUT, don't take it too hard if he refuses on occassion. My H will not be able to get in the mood, if he is very stressed, tired, worried, sick, etc... and It was a long time before I could accept his refusals.

I understand about the difficulties of perimenopause- I am there myself, as well... this is the 1st month my (P) has been late...
But at least my symptoms--PMS-- are definatley lessening! So that can be a plus!

Wow, I didn't know there was so much activity over here in "Negotiating"! Cool!

cat:

Yes this thing we find ourselves in could probably be described as a rut. We are both tired and stressed, and both seem willing to just go ahead and go to sleep if it's going to take effort. And when we do have SF it's pretty much the same thing.



That would be good if we had the time. Things are really extremely stressful right now, with jobs and transitions. He's looking for a job where we can still live in the same place, and it looks like that means my leaving my job. Maybe things will get better when the job situation settles down.

As for holding hands, he doesn't like touching! Sometimes he tolerates hand-holding because he knows I feel hurt when he refuses. But he has to have his hand totally on the outside (not interlocking fingers and thumbs) and he drops it as soon as he can.

4Better:


I'm not sure how to bring it up, because I don't want to "tip my hand" that I've been snooping... just in case there's more to find. I really don't think there is, but those are famous last words. Isn't that what led to wonderin's D-Day?

But I really don't think there's anything to find, other than the porn site visits. Maybe I could bring up things like that in a vague sort of way, maybe asking if he was bored with our SF or something.


It's kind of a turn-off for me, and I don't know about him. I haven't heard of these cups. Are they latex, because I'm severely allergic to latex. --Which, BTW, was another problem for awhile, since latex condoms were out of the question and I don't want to take BC pills anymore. We used the "rhythm" method and now we aren't so worried. I wouldn't be devastated if I got pg, but I don't think I can anymore.


Hello sister!

I love C.S. Lewis.

Did you mean "there would be no sexual excitement associated with it."? If so, I agree. See below.


I learned something interesting in a church-sponsored course I took on Christian evangelical missions. The textbook was something like "Perspectives on the Christian Mission Movement" or something. What I took away as the most important lesson, was how careful we have to be about imposing our standards on others. Which is NOT the lesson one might expect from a Christian course on missions.

It was described how many missionaries went to some region, maybe Africa, and found that the women went around topless. They proceeded to "educate" the women about "decency" and covering their breasts. It seemed to have worked. The women started wearing clothes over their breasts.

Except it turned out, the women had turned to prostitution in order to afford the clothes to cover their breasts.

In another story (or maybe it was the same story?) missionaries found that the chiefs typically had many wives. The missionaries told the chief he had to get rid of all but one wife. I forget how it ended, but the moral of the story is that if the chief got rid of the rest of the wives, they would either die or be forced into prostitution. Their society was based on the chief supporting and taking care of many women, and if he didn't, there were no societal structures for those women to survive.

The second lesson I took away was that it's important for the missionaries to be immersed in that culture before they start attempting to change it. For example, so they'll know whether telling the women to wear shirts will lead them to prostitution. To not make value judgments as an outsider. WWJD? He'd probably sit down with the villagers, dressed however they are dressed, and share their meals.

It's important to eat their food, everything you are served, and not be squeamish - or you won't be received. (Didn't Jesus give similar advice to his disciples, to eat whatever's put before them and not "shop around" for the best host?) And definitely to not maintain constant contact with your own culture - your own food, living in separate "Western" housing, etc. You will go through culture shock, but if you maintain contact with your own culture, you'll never "pass through" the culture shock stage, and you'll seem an outsider - and why should they listen to you, if their food and housing is "not good enough" for you?

Just some interesting tidbits.

Wow, 4Better...you have described my life.

Guys, if your wife doesn't mind you looking at porn, more power to you. As for saying it compares to romance novels, well, I can't remember the last time I read myself into a delirium and had to have an orgasm. I don't think I've ever read a romance novel anyway, does anyone really read those? And masturbate after? Whatever.

Anyway, my H and I have been dealing with this for over five years. I have set boundaries, only to have them broken and to be lied to again and again. Trust? The only trust I have right now is that I will be lied to again, and that I will stumble over it once more, in my home, after the promises that he will not do that again.

I don't think he can help himself. I believe he's a porn addict. I don't go through a sexual drought when he's looking, if possible, he gets even more worked up.

What porn has taken from me...let me think. It has taken money from the family. It has taken time from the family. It has taken trust, because he lies and says he'll stop, but he can't. It has used up some of my respect for him, and I do love him with all my heart. That's why I haven't left. He has joined a mens addiction group this time, so we'll see. He wants to stop and is really trying (he says), but who knows? I've also seen worse and worse porn every time I find it. Odd stuff. Weird stuff.

I remember seeing a Dr. Phil and he said 'if it's something you wouldn't do with your wife by your side, then it's cheating'.

To the men who use porn, is it less personal because you don't know the women? If you had a neighbor over to parade around naked while you masturbated, is that okay? That's not technically cheating either.

I know I am rambling all over the place. I don't even know where to start about how porn has hurt me, and tainted some things that I will never be able to see in the old light again.

Porn seems all about instant gratification, whenever, wherever, and in whatever style you feel like in the moment. It is selfish.

There is no good in porn. None.

I know that my husband was addicted to porn for years before the affair. He even says that it caused him to withdraw into himself even more- his dirty little secret.

It was so destructive, I just don;t see how it can be good at all. I understand spicing up your love life. There are great christian books about this subject and you can still be creative and exciting without violating Gods laws and I don't believe for a second that God would approve of porn.

And which porn, it gets so seedy and hardcore, gay porn, child porn, animal porn. To me it is totally sick and my Dad had a colelction of Playboys- he shouldn't have but he did. If you allow any of it you are on a slippery slope to sin and headonism.

I love intimacy and (even after my husbands affair) enjoy my sexuality. Being creative comes from a sense of peace and comfort and knowing that what you are doing is blessed by God and not spurned by the Devil.

I respect your opinions and experiences, and am sorry your experiences have been negative. Mine has been different. In my situation, it has not led to addiction; there has been no secret life, there has only been my H and me using it together. It has created an outlet in which I feel freer to engage in SF with my H. Why? Who knows. All I know is we have benefited from it the few times it is used.

Therefore, IMO, it is not bad and evil in all instances. Only in those situations in which both partners are not enthusiastic participants - just like any other situation in a marriage.

The more I hear from people about it the more I realize that most people simply don't give the subject enough weight - before getting married. I know, you can marry someone who promises they don't use it, and lies, but if you find yourself in that situation, you will have to negotiate and POJA - just like any other situation in a marriage.

I think learning how to feel comfortable with someone, comfortable enough to open up and allow yourself to be stimulated and to really focus on doing the same thing for the other person requires a deep connection one that we can imitate with porn, but we cannot recreate.

The porn feels like it opens us up, it seems like we become more uninhibited and turned on, but it opens up the sexual- physical part of our minds. it does not open up our hearts, it is not spiritual it is physical stimulation and learning to stimulate someones elses sexuality without this crutch I think requires a deep level of connection, a spiritual level of connection that most of us are unable to have, perhaps even myself.

I feel like my brief encounters with porn were base and fake, they were of the body, they were eliciting a physical response to visual and audio stimulation. Kindof like Pavlovs Dog, Ring the bell and the dog would salivate cause he knew the food was coming.

But the times that I have felt comfortable on a deep level with someone were transcending experiences. They were not of this world and not just of the physical.

That is what I want, and this is only my opinion.

Cat,evidently in your experience with your husband you don't think it has done any harm. But it has done immeasureable harm in many others lives.

It could be argued that a male individual cannot look at pornography without lustful thoughts toward the woman. And we are warned in Scripture that to look upon a woman in that manner is to have committed adultery already without ever being involved in the physical act. It is likely you would disagree based upon much you have said. Yet the danger is present.

I have never seen anything in pornography which an individual with a reasonably active imagination and a clear focus directed toward his mate can't create without ever having to resort to using it.

All in all, there really isn't anything good you can say about it. And if you were aware of half of the ruined lives of those involved in the making of the rot, I think you would be less inclined to defend it as you seem to have the need to do.

And, frankly, I think a case could be built that it has been detrimental to you as well since you had no objection to the possibility that your own daughter could become involved in it's making should she choose that as a means of supporting herself.
I doubt you would find many right thinking mothers who would share your 'opinion' on that.

ICH, I have never tried to tell anyone else they should share my feelings. I have no right to do that, nor does anyone else, even if they believe they have a religious 'right' to do so. Have you ever seen me argue that it is a great industry that everyone should embrace? No. Only that I have met people who are in it who seem like pretty normal people to me, not ogres. Have you seen me agree that there are shady sides to it? Yes, I have said as much. Any time this discussion comes up, I repeatedly bring up that it has an awful side to it, and I am in no way endorsing that. I am well aware of the ruined lives; I probably read a lot more than most posters here, 90% of it relating to social issues, so I think I probably do know quite a bit about the industry. I merely think - and keep expressing - that every person has to decide for himself what he will do in life. It is not for someone else to tell them what that should be.

I don't have a need to defend the industry. I have a need to defend any person's right to find their own way in life rather than have someone else tell them what to do. I see many posters come here and explain why they 'know' what the right thing to do is; I am merely trying to point out to people that no one on this entire earth knows what another person should do.

Once again, you have twisted my words around. I never said I had no objection. I said that I would be all right for my daughter to get involved in it IF she chooses to - although I have repeatedly said I would hope she wouldn't - because it was HER CHOICE. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the industry of pornography - and it has EVERYTHING to do with you trying to tell me that she shouldn't, and with me raising my daughter and trusting her to make the right decision for herself. I'm sorry you can't see the difference. I have faith in the daughter I have raised, and if she makes a decision I don't like, it's not my life - it's hers. Now, if she ran away from home at 17 and a junior in high school and got into it, you can bet your bippy I'd move heaven and earth to get her back home. But once she becomes an adult, she WILL make her own decisions - and succeed or fail on them.

Danil, I certainly understand your experience, and see why you would develop that opinion. My H and I, when we put on a video, we usually sit around and watch it and joke about how fake it is. We get a laugh out of it. And I'm secure enough in knowing my H doesn't want anyone else that I feel safe looking at the bodies and critiquing them alongside of him. In our case, I'm naturally inhibited on my own, so it gives me kind of an accompaniment to get into the situation, nothing more. We don't watch more than a few minutes of it, since, after all, it's pretty dumb stuff. I read all the time about people who are way more into sex than I am, who really put an art to it, who are NOT all about the transcending feelings you're describing. They enjoy the superficiality of it all. So I guess I'm somewhere in between. It works for us. Theirs works for them. Yours works for you. Which is how it should be, yes?

Twist your words around?? Nah, only paraphrased them.

Little difference between 'no objection' and 'I'd have to respect her choice'; Or, 'it would be all right for my daughter to get involved in it IF she chooses to--I am sorry if you can't see the similarity.

Ok , I'll tell her that she shouldn't if you are unable to tell her.


So ,then, she would create a sub-industry or affiliate of her own?
That is utter nonsense.



So, then, you agree that to choose to get involved in it would be a WRONG choice? You have my permission to tell her that. Tell her that it would be a WRONG choice. And you can at least tell her you would be disappointed with her 'CHOICE'...not in her...but her choice.


But when you own child goes off on a self-destructive tangent, you as a parent- out of love if for no other reason-should do all possible to turn the child back.


You're a parent not a pudding..

Whatever, ICH. I could repeat - yet again - everything I've said about my beliefs and raising my daughter with good values and you'd still try to write cute about how defective I or my choices are. And you'd still ignore again the point I keep trying to make - that you don't have the right to decide for me or anyone else what my morals should be.

Everything that has been said about porn, could also be said about alcohol.

You know, "demon rum"?

There are some people who are totally against it of any kind. You can find Bible verses saying you should not use it. There have been a LOT of people harmed by it. People can be addicted to it. It is possible, however, for some people to use it without being addicted.

It is generally agreed that, even if it is ok, it is only appropriate for consenting, non-addicted adults.

And this is just my opinion, but it seems to me that in societies where it is totally forbidden, its use becomes out of control and is even more damaging.

For alcohol, remember the Prohibition, and the widespread organized crime.
For pornography, think of all the televangelists brought down by sex scandals.

It seems to me there will always be some people who will find such things even more irresistible the more they are prohibited. That drives the use underground. That promotes abusive and addictive behavior.

JMHO.

You have capably shown that the two things are not the same. Keep in mind that the two types of stimulation are different. As for female masturbation, I think studies have shown the incidence much lower than for males.

It is comparable, however, in this respect: Porn gives an image of women that is unrealistic, with which women cannot compete and to which a real woman should not be compared. In other words, it is pure fantasy. I find it hard to believe that a real person's sex life is like that. Romance novels, and certain movies (call them chick flicks, romantic comedies) create an image of men that is unrealistic, with which men cannot compete and to which real men should not be compared.

I believe that healthy adults, both men and women, understand the difference in reality and fantasy.




There are some women who would be happy if their H's interest in sex were stimulated by something. I can see that you don't feel this way. If he is an addict, his use cannot be compared to the use of if by someone who is not addicted. Also, it seems to me that whatever you have been doing to deal with this LB is not working. If he's addicted, deal with it like an addiction.



More evidence of addiction, and if I may say, a DJ from you on the types he views.



Have you asked your H what it is all about for him? Your view on what it's all about may be different from his, and once again, another DJ.



I respect your opinion, but that is quite an absolute statement. If anyone, anywhere has found some good from it, then it falls apart.

If, for example, there were a man who wanted to please his wife sexually, and did not understand some of the mechanics of what she wanted, and was too manly and embarrassed to ask her, porn could be an "instruction book" (and there are such videos available). Thus, it has done some good.

I cannot argue if you say that it has done no good in YOUR life.

Excellent point Jayne.

Prohibition of a sort can exist in a relationship as well. I have seen threads here where women essentially bully their H into not using it.

Almost without exception there is a relapse. Why? Because neither has dealt with the underlying reasons that he was using it in the first place.

When I look at the objections that women have, and there is nothing wrong with those objections, I think that simply getting a promise for him to stop using does not really address those objections, as well as being ineffective.

Let's say that a woman is effective in convincing her H to stop using porn. Great, but how is she to turn off his imagination? With the exception of $, all the issues she has are still there, and she has no real way to know. It has gone underground.

Like anything, MB principles have to apply to this issue. First, no AO, SD or DJ. Second, an actively negotiated POJA.

Imagine this, suppose a woman said to her H, "Please finish this sentence, I would not use porn if _____". Then she listened to the answer. Also, a woman should be able to answer this sentence: "I would not object to your use of porn if _____" THAT would be the start of some real MB in my opinion.

Which is why I said that H and I laugh over it. We are VERY aware how fake it all is. In fact, in case some of you have never seen it, much of it shows positions that look great on film but are physically impossible! We look at the bodies and discuss 'real or not real', stuff like that. But bottom line, it is one of the few things that get me in the mood, so we use it sometimes.

You know what else works for me? Western novels! Why? Because they are written by men, so they (some) contain a few gratuitous scenes that belong only in a man's fantasy land. But for me, I visualize the scenes (he strides into her bedroom, she says 'come here, you big man', he throws his shirt to the ground, astonished, she looks at his...}, and it's a turn-on. Maybe that's what romance novels do for other women? I keep one in the side table, in case I want to read over those passages. Should I be called immoral for using that as a crutch to give my H better SF? Then I guess the millions of women who buy romance novels can be, as well.

You know what else works for me? Western novels! Why? Because they are written by men, so they (some) contain a few gratuitous scenes that belong only in a man's fantasy land. But for me, I visualize the scenes (he strides into her bedroom, she says 'come here, you big man', he throws his shirt to the ground, astonished, she looks at his...}, and it's a turn-on. Maybe that's what romance novels do for other women? I keep one in the side table, in case I want to read over those passages. Should I be called immoral for using that as a crutch to give my H better SF? Then I guess the millions of women who buy romance novels can be, as well.
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I have to admit, Lonesome Dove got me hot and bothered. LOL
As far as romance novels written by women go....I have read a few, but find most of them too mushy.....I prefer something a little grittier.
I get what you are saying, cat......for me, it's the setting that turns me on, even in porn.....I suppose I am a bit of a vouyer.
the thing that bothers ME most about porn is that it took my H away from me, but then again, so did a sexy bartender or a pretty salesgirl,etc...the core issue isn't porn.

Thank you for my giggle of the day. My H has not used that excuse yet.

What is a DJ?

DJ = disrespectful judgment, i.e., you criticizing him or vice versa

Exactly what I've been saying! It's not an issue if it isn't an issue. If it's an issue, you have to find out why, and find a place that works for both of you because if you just elicit a promise from someone who feels forced to promise, as has been said, he'll just go underground. That's like telling your teenager not to smoke, without getting him to understand - and agree - why it's bad. If he just gives you lip service, and doesn't agree with your reasoning, he'll just go underground and do it somewhere else. That's not POJA, and is not effective.

No, it is not my burning desire to be a receptacle for my H's excitement for another woman. Makes me feel like a used piece of garbage, actually.

I think what he meant was that some men just aren't participating in SF - at all, and the wives wish they would.

No, it is not my burning desire to be a receptacle for my H's excitement for another woman. Makes me feel like a used piece of garbage, actually.
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I have heard many women say this.
I understand it to some degree....except that I prefer my H redirect his lust to me instead of getting caught up in the fantasy of being w/another woman and masturbating.
IMO... that is part of being in a committed sexual relationship.......you don't dwell on fantasy about being w/other people.
As far as porn goes...I believe there are people who can look at porn and not be swept away to the fantasy of having sex w/ someone else.....I am 1 of them.....my H isn't.....again,the problem isn't the porn, the problem is within him.
I can understand why so many wifes hate porn.....My girlfriend HATES boats....Her H spends every free moment on his sailboat or fishing.
My aunt HATES Las Vegas and casinos....her husband loves to gamble. I don't know if it's an addiction but it sure takes him away from her.
now, add SEX to the picture....and it suddenly seems so much more offensive.

Yep, my XH used porn, and I tried to "bully" him into not using it. His use went underground.

nia says:

And that's exactly how my 1st M ended - a sexy bartender.

Seriously, like Mr.GW said, the AO's, SD's and DJ's are NOT the way to handle your spouse's porn use if you object.

POJA, POJA, POJA.

Maybe this should be posted on Hold's cautionary tale thread.

My H (my 2nd, and current, and hopefully my last!) was inexperienced and had "performance anxiety." He, and then we together, used porn exactly in the way described.

So I think that is the second example of it doing some good that has been posted. (The other was a W using it to get in the mood, in order to make it easier/more pleasant to provide SF. If I understand correctly, this was something the H and the W both wanted - a POJA if you will - and the porn just assisted with the, er, mechanics.)

Look, I used to be one of the W's who was demanding her H not look at porn. That did not work. I'm not saying you have to compromise your own beliefs and standards. With my 2nd H I only did what I myself was willing and enthusiastic to do.

On second thought, I'm much much happier with my 2nd H. So my AO's, SD's and DJ's toward my XH worked - it got me away from him, so I could find my wonderful H. YMMV.

I don't blame you, I wouldn't want that either. You may not believe this, but on the occassions when I view it, that is not what I am thinking. My desire (or lack thereof) for another woman has nothing to do with it. I may get some stimulation from viewing the ACT, but I have no desire whatsoever for the people portraying it.

Have you talked to your H about this? About your feeling that you are being used as a receptacle? Does he view porn because he desires other women?

I think we would all do well to not attribute feelings, thoughts and attitudes to others, even our spouses, without verifying. In other words, you THINK he does it because he desires other women. I don't know your husband, maybe it's true. If so, porn is not your problem, it's a symptom. If not, then porn is still not your problem, it's the feelings you have generated by his use. If you have expressed those feelings without AO, SD, or DJ, and he still doesn't care, you have even bigger problems, i.e. his lack of caring and love. If you have only expressed your feeling through AO, SD and DJ, then I'm sure he feels you do not care about HIM.

A little OT, but it made me think about how little credit marketing folks give us, or as P.T. Barnum said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the American public."

I mean they hire sexy bartenders so that men will stay longer and drink more. I remember in college there was a bar that gave away free popcorn salted with cayenne pepper so we would buy more beer.

The sad thing is - it works.

And that's exactly how my 1st M ended - a sexy bartender.

Seriously, like Mr.GW said, the AO's, SD's and DJ's are NOT the way to handle your spouse's porn use if you object.

POJA, POJA, POJA.
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For me, poja didn't work.
I tried it.

by the time I found out about his porn fascination, we had been married for over 15 years. He had been sneaking and hiding it all that time and I never knew it.
I wasn't worked up over the porn on the computer...jeez, I had stumbled onto some of it, I was curious.......but, HE adamantly denied he was looking at it when i first mentioned the history on the browser and then when he realized he was "caught".. he blamed his need for it ON me. Swore to me, he wouldn't be interested if I were more inhibited....
I never said no porn....I tried to explain that some it made ME feel insecure and that what I really wanted was to work on OUR sex life, I was even OK w/ the idea of porn that would Help US......I just did not want him to not sneak and lie about it....and NO strip clubs...he swore he wouldn't....swore he wasn't even interested.....but, he was lying to me.
You can not poja w/ someone who will lie.
And, I truly think A lot of wifes (and maybe H's too) are dealing w/ spouses who will lie about it because they feel embarrassed and ashamed or just plain old don't want to face w/ their own issues or fear of intimacy.

I mean they hire sexy bartenders so that men will stay longer and drink more. I remember in college there was a bar that gave away free popcorn salted with cayenne pepper so we would buy more beer.

The sad thing is - it works.
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You are right, it does work.
But, when you are out of college w/ a W and 2 kids and you are sneaking off to the bar on a saturday afternoon, pretending to go to Home Depot....you should really stop and think....what am I doing?....why am I lying?...This is silly and I need to grow up.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that poja would always solve all problems. Of course it takes both parties being radically honest and absolutely committed to poja, for it to work.

But it's more likely thing to work, IMHO, than DJ's, SD's and AO's.

If the other person is going to do things that are harmful to the M and hurtful to their spouse, you can't force them to change.

I'm sorry to hear about your H sneaking around like that.

But it's more likely thing to work, IMHO, than DJ's, SD's and AO's.

If the other person is going to do things that are harmful to the M and hurtful to their spouse, you can't force them to change.

I'm sorry to hear about your H sneaking around like that. \:\(

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You are very right....it is better than Djs, SD's and AO's..
at least when I attempted to talk about it and poja it, it did make him feel safe enough to slowly begin to open up to me.

The sneaking around was the part that really threw me.....the idea that a W will drive her H's porn use underground if she tells him she doesn't like it doesn't work for me.
I expected my H to be more mature than that.

Yes, if a W doesn't like it, it is an LB for her, and she should practice H&O and tell her H.

I agree, she shouldn't compromise her standards and beliefs. That would be going the other way - driving her beliefs underground.

I agree, she shouldn't compromise her standards and beliefs. That would be going the other way - driving her beliefs underground.
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I just don't think "underground" should be an option in marriage.
You talk about it...try to work it out....deal w/ it in some way....or realize you are better off divorced.
But,to say to yourself....he/she doesn't like it and asked me NOT to do it... so I just have to sneak it is NOT a mature or loving attitude....and if it involves anything that has to do w/ sex......it's not just betrayal of trust,it does start to feel like adultery.

I am going to try to tread carefully here, because I would never blame the lied to for the lie. A liar chooses his or her own behavior, much like a WS.

I think of dishonesty as the nuclear bomb of relationships. (I suppose that they could also be like a slow disease, but that's another topic). I have never dealt with infidelity, but I read where a lot of people are more devastated by the lies than the act of PA. We can accept that people are weak, that they have faults, but lies are what make us give up, no?

Dr. Harley writes extensively on what makes people lie. I recognize there is more than one type of liar, but I think most people lie to avoid conflict (at least short term).

How does this relate to porn? Well, most of us have been socialized to see porn as sinful, wicked, perverted and gross. If we see it that way and do it anyway, it will make us want to hide it from those we love. Even if the subject is never discussed, we assume the other sees it as sinful and perverted. Our ego does not want the other to see us in that light, so we hide it. Amazingly, even when presented with irrefutable evidence, men lie about doing it!

So now we have two lies - one of omission, where we do not reveal something about ourselves to the one we have pledged to love above all others, and an active lie, where we deny something we have done. Ouch. I think it is natural for the lied to spouse to wonder, What else have I been lied to about?

I suppose if you lie about your porn use, you must think that the activity is shameful, or at the very least, you percieve that your spouse will see it as shameful.

If someone's instinct is to lie, then there is nothing you can do to prevent that. You can, however, create an environment where the incentive to lie is diminished.

When Mrs G and I were dating, she found a magazine I had. Her reaction was more amused than angry. From early on, I did not lie to her. While she may not be happy with what I have to tell her, I get no AO, or DJ. I have, in the past, DELAYED telling her things that I knew would make her unhappy, but I have learned that it's in both of our best interests to say it sooner, rather than later.

In other words, if I had the tendency to be an avoid trouble liar, and there was no trouble (or at least not the kind I imagine), there is no need for me to lie.

This honesty is one reason I think I have never been involved in an EA. If I have a conversation with a woman, I relate it (as best I can, sometimes I don't pay full attention) to Mrs G. I get no LBs from having the conversation, but if it goes into an area Mrs G is uncomfortable with, she lets me know and I avoid conversing with that person. (To be clear, she is NOT the jealous or paranoid type)

Taking this further, we had a convo this morning about something that came up last night. She asked me if I was mad at her. I could have told her everything was fine, but that would have been a lie, and caused more grief. I thought about it and told her that while I was not mad at her, I was upset that the situation was not different. I understood that she had no control over it, but I was not happy at the way it turned out.

If there is one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that radical honesty is the cornerstone of any relationship.

YMMV.

Goes back to honesty. If the H tries to placate his W with what she wants to hear, and it goes underground, he is lying from the start. If he has no intention of stopping, or thinks his W is being irrational, he should "man up" and say so. It isn't what the W wants to hear, but at least it's an honest beginning to a dialogue that has some chance of a successful outcome.

If there is one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that radical honesty is the cornerstone of any relationship.
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I am right there w/ ya!

I think my H finally believes that too....he does still struggles w/ w/ being open.
He learned to hide his feelings and lie when he was a young child...it became a defense mechinism for him.

I now know why he lied about his IB......He was ashamed of it and he did feel like he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing ...He does deal w/ shame issues about porn and sex ...and he really did use porn/masturbation etc. to soothe himself...I don't hold that against him, but his inability to be honest and open w/ me has created many problems in our marriage that I never anticipated.
Many of us get married young and are forced to figure all this out as we go.

ITA. I see that so very, very often on these boards, that people's partners do things they don't understand, but it's very clear to me that it is their knee-jerk reaction - learned from childhood - to not admit to what will get you in trouble! I read in Emotional Alchemy that we establish patterns in childhood that work for us, especially in dysfunctional families, and every time you do that response, that pattern, it creates synapses (?) in the brain, connections, that this is what you do in XYZ situation. When we become adults, those thoughts or actions, reactions, are the strongest, having been used the most, so they are the things we most readily do, even if we don't want to!

I have to laugh when people say FOO plays no part in their lives, when in reality it plays a 90% role! Think how long it takes you to overcome something like that, in adulthood, once you know you need to.

Cat: Have you read The Celestine Prophesy? It talks about control dramas in your childhood that work their way into your control dramas in adulthood?

No, I haven't. I've added it to my list, thanks.

I think there is a lot of stereotyping going on here. Not ALL guys have stronger sexual urges than women. Not everything that is considered "porn" is the same. What are we talking about here? Videos that show the act of sex? Magazines with pictures of naked people? Erotica books versus romance books? Now compare it all to "art". There is a difference. The difference is in your head. What YOU get from each thing. If you feel guilty about it then maybe you need to think twice about it. Just my thoughts. By the way, I read somewhere that women don't use "porn" products because it is all in their imaginations...

It appears this thread has fallen off the cliff....

catperson, I know some women are okay with it, and what you enjoy in the privacy of your home is your business.

Mr. Wondering, I know you are a man and don't see it the way a woman does. I've heard everything from my H that you are saying, that it's not me, that he doesn't want anyone but me, that I am beautiful...but what it makes me feel is unsafe, and I have told him so, and we have seen and are still seeing a counselor, and his continued use is a major LB.

I wish there were a way to take a poll on this, because I believe that more women are NOT okay with this. None of my friends will tolerate it, and my H's only two other past long term relationship partners were NOT okay with it.

I think that we all, both men and women, have been conditioned since birth to believe that boys will be boys, and it's a guy thing. And that we should just put up with it, because after all, he comes home to us, it's not really cheating, because he's not with a *real* person, that it's okay to lust for someone else, but as long as he turns his ding dong my way for the big finish, then all is well.

That just doesn't work for me. You can say all you want about how that's not the way it works, but I'm telling you how I *feel*, and try as I might, I can't change that.

Do you honestly believe that you cannot change the way you feel? Or that time and experience will not change it for you? I used to think that way. I don't want to get into the details, but I now know that I own my feelings, and I can choose how I feel about anything.

There is nothing wrong with the way you feel. I would not try to change your mind on how you feel. It would be a waste of time to try, for both of us.

What I would suggest, is that your feelings are not the only ones under consideration. You must consider the feelings of your H on this. To do otherwise will only result in nothing but pain for both of you, unless you decide this is enough to separate forever.



What does that matter? The only people who need to be polled are you and your H.

Namaste

but as long as he turns his ding dong my way for the big finish, then all is well.
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LOL.
thanks for the laugh.

MG. G said..Do you honestly believe that you cannot change the way you feel? Or that time and experience will not change it for you? I used to think that way. I don't want to get into the details, but I now know that I own my feelings, and I can choose how I feel about anything.
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true.
But, if it's a value call for sushi, why would she consider changing her values to accommodate her H's choice to do something she has told him hurts her feelings?

You suggest that she take her H's feelings into account?
The way I see it, He feels entitled to use porn after his W has
continually expressed how it makes her feel...perhaps it is time that she put some boundaries in place instead of trying to change her values.

I don't think anyone should be pressured or forced to change their values. I was concerned that she seemed closed to the idea of changing her feelings in general. I find that sad.

I stand by the idea that her H has feelings, and that they are to be taken into consideration. Just as her H needs to validate and work with her feelings, sushi, assuming she wants to continue this marriage, needs to recognize that her H has some feelings in this matter. Not to agree, but to work with the fact that he is a human being with a stake in this as well.

sushi, assuming she wants to continue this marriage, needs to recognize that her H has some feelings in this matter.
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Why is it that you assume she doesn't realize that he has some feelings about the matter?
From reading her posts, it sounds to me like she has taken into account that he likely has a porn addiction and that he isn't ready or willing to address it.
I thinks she needs to read all she can about SA and what causes porn addiction and why it is so hard to break....If they are the feelings of his you are referring to, I agree w/ you.
Again, I think she needs to work on putting some boundaries into place and not taking his "addiction" personally.

The fact that she has tried for five years, without effect, to get him to stop indicates that there is a problem with the approach. Either she is dealing with this only from her perspective, without getting to the root of HIS issue, or she isn't serious about making it a boundary.

If I set a *boundary*, and told my W, if you cross it I am gone, then I am still dealing with boundary crossings five years later, then I guess I didn't really mean it.

Obviously, I don't know them. I can only go with what is posted, so that's the way I see it.

YMMV.

If I set a *boundary*, and told my W, if you cross it I am gone, then I am still dealing with boundary crossings five years later, then I guess I didn't really mean it.
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I agree about the boundaries and I also think it is time for a new approach.
I was editing and adding to my previous post when yours came in.

Don't you hate it when that happens?

I very much take his feelings into account. I feel empathy for him, but that doesn't take my hurt away. His empathy for my hurt is not enough to make him stop.

If he had been open and honest from the beginning, things would not have spiraled this way. I never demanded he give up porn. I tried, and tried, and tried talking, telling him how it made me feel, and he felt my pain, but in the end his need or want for it overcame his promise of no more.

I have laid down a boundary now. If I find out about it again before he tells me, I'm out of there. I told him that as long as he's working on it, I will be there for him, 100%.

I hope he's committed to stopping this behavior. He's gone to a men's addiction group twice now, and is balking at going again because they're very religious based, and he's not. I'm waiting to see what he actually does.

I have laid down a boundary now. If I find out about it again before he tells me, I'm out of there. I told him that as long as he's working on it, I will be there for him, 100%.

I hope he's committed to stopping this behavior. He's gone to a men's addiction group twice now, and is balking at going again because they're very religious based, and he's not. I'm waiting to see what he actually does.
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Make sure you enforce your boundary if it happens again.
If you said you are out of there...get out. He needs to understand you are serious. You can always rethink your position...you do not have to go straight to divorce.
I kept trying to state my boundaries, thinking my H would realize that the more he sneaks the less I trust him and the less I want to be with him. Wasn't very effective.

Do you know about Recoverynation.com?
very helpful website and workshops for both 'addict' and partner...and not religious based.....it's all about taking responsibility for your own actions and putting values(like honesty and integrity)into place.
If your H is like mine, he is probably dealing w/ a lot of shameful feelings and immature emotional development.

I KNOW my name was unintentionally and mistakenly placed in the above quote as I am not a defender of porn use at all.

Porn is sinful and should be resisted by all.

POJA'ed use, IF ANY, by a couple should be limited and rare as well as open and notorious to both partners. "Accidental" use (such as opening a webpage to find porn and succumbing to linger longer than you should or even making the mistake of linking off such page to more) should be disclosed to your spouse. When I say "accidental" I am taking into consideration that pornography is EVERYWHERE these days, particularly online and it's difficult to avoid entirely and difficult to resist all the time. Disclosing and sharing such events with your spouse make such events less likely to occur into the future. Disclosure builds trust and intimacy. A complete porn free life is nearly impossible these days. I would suggest men voluntarily put keyloggers on their computers or give their wives permission to secretly keylog their computers at any time, with the hope that such husband will be more dutiful to his own integrity and share any mess ups with their spouse. It's much easier to not have "accidents" when you think someone may be watching.

Secret, undisclosed, unmonitored, un- POJA'ed use of porn is completely wrong for a married man, it is a integrity and character issue and is a MAJOR lovebuster. It destroys intimacy. It destroys marriages.

If porn is more important than your wife's feelings...you've got a problem. Unpoja'ed porn use is indefensible.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I did not feel this way before MB. Though I owned and viewed very little porn, I certainly felt entitled to it back then. I justified and rationalized that I viewed/looked at it much less than almost every other guy I knew and; therefore, it wasn't a problem. 3 or 4 times it became an minor issue in our marriage. I ignored/trivialized such complaints. Ignoring my wife resulted in consequences.

Ignore your spouse at your own peril.

Marriage is a relationship of extraordinary care. Viewing and utilizing porn without your spouses approval or even knowledge is not caring at all.

What I read you saying is that as it sits right now, his desire for porn is so strong that he is willing to risk his M for it? Do I have this right? *red lights flashing, sirens screaming, bells ringing*


As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1) He does not really see his M at risk, OR
2) There is something he is getting out of porn he considers worth the risk

Assuming #2 - I think any effective action would have to include finding out what that is, and how he can get it in a manner that would be acceptable to you.

I have no idea what it is that he gets worth risking his M, nor what you could do to give it to him in an acceptable manner. That is for the two of you to work out. I think YOU need to know what it is that makes him so reckless with your affection. It has to be something important to him.

Namaste

Mr.Wondering, I am SO sorry for my mistake!!!! I should have been more careful. I'm glad to hear your feelings about porn, though. Thank you.

Yes, Mr. Goodwrench, I had said in the past that I would leave if I found it again, and didn't, because I really love this guy. Yes, he risked his marriage probably because I have no bollocks and caved, and he felt there was no risk.

This very last time I told him that I will stay as long as he works on the issue, and that must include being OPEN and HONEST. No more lies or lies by omission.

What he says he gets from porn is 'acceptance without conditions'. What we learned in counseling last week was that his acceptance of himself must come from within. It's up to him to find it without the use of porn.

No worries.

BTW...one tip I've picked up over my years here. Guys will talk about "being more visual" as an excuse/justification/rationalization for their sinful use of pornography.

They CAN use their minds eye to "visualize" having sex/making love with their wife. There is nothing sinful about imagining their wife's breast(s), etc. It is something they see on a regular basis so it doesn't take that much imagination and it actually builds intimacy.

Sexual thoughts aren't bad. There is absolutely nothing wrong with respectful sexual thoughts about ones spouse.


On another note...I really haven't read through the entire thread so I apologize if I repeat something someone already said or if I'm completely off-topic, but on the issue of your husband and porn.

To me...porn is something every male under the age of 50 grew up with a ton of access to. The younger your husband the more access he had to it and the more it is ingrained/engrained (whatever) in his secret psyche. You see...teenage boys and young men had to hide their porn from their parents and later, girlfriends, roommates and wife. They are trained to keep it all a big secret. This "behavior" continued into late adolescents and beyond. I don't hardly know a man my age (40) that I couldn't ask him if he has a secret porn stash in his home that wouldn't answer yes. My guess...8 out of 10 would have a private hidden stash of pornography that their spouse knows NOTHING about. Men get so good at the "secret" that my guess is, since you're aware of it, that the "problem" you see is likely 4 times bigger than you even know. Just like alcohol and affairs...there is no way to make any progress until you get the complete truth and he has a sustained period of "no contact" and withdraws.

It's good you are addressing this with your husband in a direct manner. It IS serious. His attempts to minimize your feelings was and is disrespectful. His use of porn is disrespectful also. To me...his dishonesty and insistance at maintaining this secret part of him is the most devastating. He's denying himself the opportunity for a truly intimate relationship. I'm sure (or I hope) the counselors you are seeing are much more adept at advising on this issue than I am....I just want you to understand that your husband is not that strange when it comes to having pornography and it's not that unusual for him to justify it to himself. Porn has become that "normal" for guys to have. He can and will understand that it's that hurtful to you and he can learn to live life without it...but that doesn't mean he won't be tempted by it again and again and NEVER have a transgression. It's BEEN a lifelong habit and, I think, eventually, you'll have to open up yourself to allowing him to come to you safely when he messes up and allowing him to open up himself to you. Sharing his weakness instead of hiding his weakness. The lack of intimacy is MORE damaging than any individual picture or video could ever be. It IS a very habitual teenage deviancy which has taken years to form. It's tough to break the cycle and view pornography from a 180 degree different view. I don't know how I did it, really. Maybe a gift from God when I sought repentence for my prior limited illicit use of pornography. My wife now understands that I am an adult and a fallen human being and that if do stumble upon pornography that it's not illegal or anything but she appreciates me coming to her openly about the issue. To be fair...she has stumbled upon it too (lol).

Last note...your husband can actually find relief from sharing this part of himself with you COMPLETELY. I don't know if you've gotten the whole truth yet. Living lies is hard work. Until he spills it all...expect defensiveness.

Have no idea if this helps.

Mr. Wondering

Interesting. I hope that was explored further. Does he think that your acceptance of him is conditional? Also, how does one get acceptance from pictures and video. It is great if he can understand that acceptance comes from within.

Also, how does one get acceptance from pictures and video.
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I am thinking it's the fantasy...he can easily fantasize/pretend that these women want him unconditionally and that he can please them. There is no pressure.

Agreed. I think women often underestimate the importance men may place on their sexual prowess, endowment, performance, etc. From what I've experienced, just as being pretty or looking attractive is a big determiner to a girl, sexual judgment is a big one for guys. Maybe #2, right up there with identifying yourself with your job/career. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but I've been hearing all that stuff my whole life. There is always pressure, and if you're not the good-looking high school jock who can get any girl he wants, you're gonna carry around that secret fear of rejection your whole life. And remember, if you're not into the act, it's pretty darn obvious! A girl can fake, but a guy can't. I can see how that would take the pressure off, if you have any doubts at all.

I may be reading this wrong, but if you are saying that it's an ego thing, yes and no. Yes, a man's ego is every bit as fragile as a woman's (perhaps more so), and his sexuality is a big part of being a man, along with being a provider, protector, knowing how to use tools :), etc. Men can be shattered if they run into evidence that they are lacking in any of these areas.

Now, taking the pressure off of asking his W to do those things, you may be on to something there. Having your W refuse sex is one of the most devastating things a man can deal with. In a certain type of immature man, there's no good way for a woman to turn down her H. No matter how lovingly done, a man might take that as the worst kind of personal rejection. SF is after all, something that ONLY the W is to provide. A man could get the EN for admiration, recreational companionship, perhaps even domestic support from other men. (Or as Bill Engvall once said, If it weren't for the sex, I could be gay. Without sex, it's just hanging out with your buddies)

Having said that, perhaps I have overlooked another reason, and that could be pure laziness. While men can be clueless at times, I think we know somehow if we have not laid the proper groundwork for SF, much less for asking for something a little different.

Related to this laziness is the environment of the M. If a man gets a lot of AO, DJ, then it's a lot easier to get your stimulation from porn than to fix the issues causing the LBs.

Of course, being as wide open as it is, porn can provide a visual of something that a man knows his W would NEVER provide (such as threesomes, lesbianism, maybe S&M). I'm thinking that some men would never DREAM of even suggesting this to the W, but find it stimulating nonetheless. IMO, as long as it stays in the fantasy department, it's not necessarily harmful to the marriage. YMMV

Ok, I've got my chain mail on, commence firing.

BTW Cat, I think I would know if Mrs G were faking, notwithstanding the scene from When Harry Met Sally

I may be reading this wrong, but if you are saying that it's an ego thing, yes and no. Yes, a man's ego is every bit as fragile as a woman's (perhaps more so), and his sexuality is a big part of being a man, along with being a provider, protector, knowing how to use tools :), etc. Men can be shattered if they run into evidence that they are lacking in any of these areas.
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I think that is exactly what cat was pointing out...that men ARE fragile about these things.....and I was trying to say that w/ fantasy he doesn't have to worry that he might be letting the woman down in any way....he feels totally accepted because he is doing everything right. The photos or movies add that xtra something special to the fantasy...a setting, a new twist, etc...it's like a prop....the porn habit was developed long before his relationship w/ his wife.

Nia:

I understand what you are saying, I think. I just find it very strange.

On a personal level, I just don't see how it would help. It's like he's confusing it with reality.

Ah well, nobody said I had to get everything.

porn can provide a visual of something that a man knows his W would NEVER provide (such as threesomes, lesbianism, maybe S&M). I'm thinking that some men would never DREAM of even suggesting this to the W, but find it stimulating nonetheless. IMO, as long as it stays in the fantasy department, it's not necessarily harmful to the marriage. YMMV

Ok, I've got my chain mail on, commence firing.

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As long as it doesn't keep you from your W....as long as YOU keep yourself (and your fantasies)in check and your W knows about your habit and doesn't object, *I* don't see it as harmful to the marriage.
It's pretty much the way I always felt about porn or other sexual stimuli.
For me, it could get me feeling sexy and I would redirect that sexual energy at my H......I made sure my fantasies never took me away from him.

On a personal level, I just don't see how it would help. It's like he's confusing it with reality.

Ah well, nobody said I had to get everything.
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It's probably a good thing you don't "get it". I think it means you have a handle on it....you have it under control.

I don't know if they confuse it w/ reality as much as they use it to soothe themselves.....make themselves feel better, etc....imgine you see an expensive boat or a car and you fantasize about winning the lottery and buying one for yourself.......it makes you feel good for a minute to fantasize about that.
AND...it seems very harmless.......BUT, they fantasize and masturbate to make themselves feel better about themselves.......and then they hide it from their spouse, so naturally it will interfere w/ the intimacy in the relationship.

*this can be very true in the reverse, as well. When the H refuses SF-it can be VERY crushing to the feelings of the W.



Shouldn't that be the same in reverse? That SF is something that only the H is to provide?

I have a question and some POV on the situ:

*Aside from the obvious--addiction; Why would a man STILL want/need/use porn- and hide it from his wife, lie to cover it up...deny any knowledge or use of it... Why would H refuse his wife SF when SHE initiates, asks for , OFFERS SF....???? Wife is attractive, has healthy drive for SF- and very RARELY ever refuses H's advances or requests for SF, is agreeable to new positions, BJ's,etc. offers H (SINCERELY!) compliments, and genuinely likes/wants/enjoys SF with H... Wife finds H very attractive- and tells him so! Confides in H- that she is very comfortable with him in regards to sex- and willing to "experiment" as he may desire? Asks H what he likes, what he wants, how he wants it...willing and offers to at least try to accommodate H's wishes, desires, etc...

Possible reasoning behind the above behaviours:

First: It is a possibility that H has never had anyone be so open about SF and willing and motivated? and he simply does not know "how to handle" the situation???

Second: Perhaps H has been in situations previously, where SF was used as a tool for leverage in some way against him? He does not fully "trust" that the W's motivations, compliments, etc. are genuine?

Third: Perhaps, H has really deep seated SELF-ESTEEM issues, and does not believe that W- or anyone could truly be as attracted to, love as genuinely, accept as whole- want and desire him--as he is...?

Fourth: H has viewed/used porn in the past without any repercussions- even in past relationships, doesn't see it as any threat? Thereby fails to truly acknowledge/accept W's feelings on the subject? Perhaps, in past relationships- his primary mode of SF may have been self-gratification with or with out porn?



Considered, also- is this particular POV. It seems very natural to avoid areas of conflict and find alternative methods of dealing with the stresses created therein, even though many of those coping mechanisms may well contribute greatly to the decay of the relationship. It becomes a vicious self replicating circle of mal-adjustment and self destruction.

Possibly any combination of many or all of the above could come into play, here. I am certain that ALL of the above- in some way- have validity and common grounds in the situation I experienced with my H. *(This is the 3rd M for each of us, so we are neither new to the relationship scene) These are some of the things I have been able to assimilate from discussions with my H regarding SF....


I still struggle with the immediate issues, when SF is declined, refused, etc--for whatever reason- there IS a period of "adjustment", whereas I have to come to terms with the situation and accept it, fight it- or just go with it-- and NOT take it so personally. Sometimes, he is just really tired- or H just really DOES want to HOLD me and be tender and intimate --without the act of SF...

There is NO EASY answer for anything when it comes to the psyche of human-kind ( includes both males and females). Many of us tend to OVERANALYZE most things- and in so doing- create our own little chasm of insecurities and despair.

My fiance says very matter of fact that he will participate in internet porn if we should ever have a lull in our sex life. He makes no apologies saying that it is a need for him that he has to meet. I have no anticipation that we will have a problem with desire for each other. Yet, I don't like the threat. His participation in pornography IS adultery to me.

I just can't swallow his words. My first husband was involved in numerous physical affairs interlaced with lots of pornography. The thought of pornography makes my blood boil. The threat of it is certainly NOT a turn on. I have told him how I feel. Our conversation is still ongoing.

What's a girl to do or to think about this situation?

Wow.
My first thought is that he is very much threating you. If you let that statement pass, and marry this guy, you will feel obligated to perform no matter what, even if you have the stomach flu. He will then feel justified in whacking off to porn if you do not perform.

My second thought is that if he knows your past, then it's cruel to say what he said. Using your past experiences to manipulate you is wrong.

As far as his need...please tell him that no testicles have ever exploded from not having sex for a few days, or even a few years for that matter. It's certainly fun, but it's a want, not a need.

As Elmer Fudd might say in a case like this," Be verwe verwe careful ! "

One thing a girl could do is prolong the engagement and be totally honest with herself day to day. It is by far the better choice to end an engagement than to wed with serious reservations.

MY first thought was that at least the guy was honest upfront and BEFORE the deal was done. I suppose it could be taken as a threat, but if it is something that is that is so offensive to you, at least you have the opportunity to back out now, before there are children and a whole life together to unravel. You have said how you feel and he has said what he intends to do. Maybe it's not a match.

I must strongly disagree with sex being a want and not a need. The N in EN stands for need. SF is often the #1 EN for men. Without ENs being met, one has to WHY am I in this marriage?

MY first thought was that at least the guy was honest upfront and BEFORE the deal was done. I suppose it could be taken as a threat, but if it is something that is that is so offensive to you, at least you have the opportunity to back out now, before there are children and a whole life together to unravel. You have said how you feel and he has said what he intends to do. Maybe it's not a match.
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There is certainly some truth to that......at least he didn't tell you whatever he thought you wanted to hear and sneak and lie about it.
OTOH......I do think IF he says he feels justified looking at porn/masturbating whenever you are not in the mood etc. ( even after you told him how you feel about it)......... he probably will managed to justify it whenever the mood strikes him. AND, that's not a good sign. I suggest you work this out and poja before marriage.

That's right, sauce for the goose and gander, etc




I would think in that sitch, he would be too tired for porn!
Seriously though, I remember reading something similar in Harley's book, man used porn even though his wife gave him sex anytime he wanted it. I thought, who does that in real life? But I can suspend that disbelief and go with it.


I can't disagree, could be any of those things, or laziness, or a control issue.


Well, I have learned a lot about myself and relationships in the past year. You know, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I try not to take it personally when my W is not ready for SF. I know that the way we work together all the time sets the groundwork for when the time is right. However, this journey has taken me to an interesting place with overanalyzing. I know in my heart and mind that when I create my own little chasm of insecurity and despair (love that phrase, and will steal it liberally) that what I am really doing is making it all about me, and it isn't about me. I know what is happening, but sometimes I can't seem to stop it.

Namaste

As far as his need...please tell him that no testicles have ever exploded from not having sex for a few days, or even a few years for that matter. It's certainly fun, but it's a want, not a need.
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why not try to poja from a different angle?
something like....
IF I do not feel up for SF etc.... what can we do that will help you feel sexually satisfied that does not offend ME and make me feel unsafe in the relationship?

To be honest with you...I am suspect that he is abstaining right now....something tells me that he is very much in the habit of using it to supplement his sex life with you and he is trying to clue you in w/o coming clean about his habit....that would require too much vulnerability on his part.
IF I were you, I would first work on making it safe for him to be honest and open about sex w/ you.

I agree with Nia. This is a very serious situation, which you'll see if you peruse these boards. Many marriages have come apart because of porn. Do NOT marry this man until you take this problem apart and fix it. You will regret it. I see his comment both as honesty - at least partial honesty, as he's probably doing it now anyway - and as a threat. I repeat, do NOT marry him until this is resolved. Be careful however, not to just hammer him with your opinion until he just says he won't do it - he will just hide it better, until the day that he doesn't care what you think any more (think of the words, nag, shrew, witch), and starts using it openly - and blaming YOU for his using it.

I truly think that porn gives men, and women, a different sort of release than real sex. Like the guy who said it was unconditional respect for him. I think maybe a better discussion here would be what do people get out of it that they don't get in real SF? It may be something as simple as the rush of doing something people don't want you to do. Once in a while, H and I will park in a deserted street and get it on, and what makes it better - more heightened - is that any minute, some cop could pull up and catch us at it! See what I mean? Maybe in the back of their mind, that eyeball is on the lookout for the wife coming in the room, so his adrenaline's a little racier just for doing it, just like when he was 15 and afraid mom would catch him. Especially in a marriage of 10 or 20 years, when everything has become so mundane; what excitement is left?

That's why I always advocate for people to keep their marriage shaken up; try new restaurants, go to new parks, take different trips, sign up for new classes. Make the marriage new and exciting, and this subject could become just a backdrop, when there's so much more to look forward to. Plus having that better life makes the SF more exciting cos you're both coming to it from a heightened sense of living.

From Harley's EN page:
He uses the list in terms of 'needs', but they are all wants.

No prob, we'll just agree to disagree

Namaste

I am fairly new to MB, and try to absorb knowledge every time I'm here.

Maybe someone can explain something to me. How is acb's fiance being 'open and honest' when he says something like 'if you don't have sex with me I will watch porn and masturbate' even though it's a big LB to her.

How is open and honest sounding like a three year old threatening to hold his breath if you don't buy him some candy? What if one of her emotional needs is empathy?

Do you really want a guy who is telling you that how you feel about having sex with him doesn't matter? He's going to have sex one way or another?

I guess I just don't understand.

I'm new to MB. Just finished reading His Needs Her Needs and saw the website. Since H and I are dealing with this porn issue I thought I would see what the general thoughts are. My H and I have been married for 13 yrs and I knew we were having a lack of intimacy which he refused to address for years. I was utterly shocked when I found the porn on his computer August 2007. If anyone would have asked me if my H would do that I would have had to say, never. Why? Because we have always had an active sex live, I never said no, and was always open to play. Over the years it became emotionless on his part and my needs were not being met. I kept trying to initiate discussion about this and he kept saying if his sexual needs were met he would be able to meet my emotional needs. I knew this to be a fact so I never said no wven though I was starving for emotional contact and was dying inside. He refused to discuss this so we were already in turmoil when I found the porn. He again refused to address this as a problem, other than it being my problem. I was devestated and felt I had no alternatives and was deeply depressed. Finally, while working out one day, I realized that this was BS and I would never tolerate being treated like this by anyone. When I realized this I felt so much better and not so desimated. When he came home from work and went up to his office, again not talking to me (he wasn't talking to me until I "came to my senses"). I went up to his office, apoligized for interrupting him as he quickly flipped his computer screens, very calmly told him this was not working for me, that I loved him with all my heart, but could no longer accept this in our marriage and that I wanted him to leave. That I wanted to set up a time to discuss finances with him so that we could live apart. He looked at me as if I had grown a second head, stared at me, and said nothing. I very calmly walked out. Well those things have worked out and we stayed together and have a strong marriage. But, there is always this sense of uncertainty and queesy feeling I get and I don't really know where he is coming from because he said he'll never look at it online again but that is the extent we have discussed it. He refuses to discuss it other wise. He says he has quite and that shold be good enough. If it should be good enough then why don't I feel the same? Sometimes I wonder if this is all for naught and I'm going to eventually leave him anyhow.

Goodwrench, why are you wasting your time and everyone elses by being here. There must be a corner where you live where you can stand with a person or two you know and chew the fat.

And if you don't know the difference between reading a novel and creating the scenery in your imagination and video pornography where nothing is left to the imagination then you probably aren't old enough to be in this forum....emotionally anyway.

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your feedback.

To answer your questions:

I am here because I think I have something to add. I respect that you do not think I do. Bygones.

I do understand the difference between pornography and reading a novel. Do you understand the similarities? Would you like to have a mature discussion on the subject? If so, great. If not, that's fine too.

Namaste

I suppose that it is better in comparison. I have seen where men have told their SO, when asked, that they do not use porn. They were lying, and hid that use. Years later, the W found out about it and was devastated. The lying was worse than the porn. (Not that they were happy about the porn)

Your question about do you really want a guy, etc. is what I was getting at. Maybe she doesn't want this guy. Better to know that now.

No, I think not... 'mature' being the major snag. But thanks for asking.

I do understand the difference between pornography and reading a novel. Do you understand the similarities? Would you like to have a mature discussion on the subject? If so, great. If not, that's fine too.
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I find the idea of a discussion about the similarities interesting. i think we all might be able to learn something if we are open to it.
I don't have a problem w/ a little fantasy/SF....
the issue *I* do have w/ fantasy/SF is when people in a committed relationship continue to fantasize about having sex with someone else and justify that they NEED it......what EN is getting me by fantasizing/masturbating?

It's being open and honest by revealing to her that he will act selfishly if he doesn't get what he wants. Most men would never admit that. I kind of compare it to friends telling or not telling me that my H is having an affair. I would MUCH rather know if he is, so I can do something about it! I would also much rather know if my future H will disregard my wishes and go to porn anyway, BEFORE I marry him! It also tells me something of his character. Honestly, I think he's a little dumb telling her that; it's like saying, you really don't want to marry me.

As far as reading is concerned, I know for a fact that when I started reading Western novels (I was searching for stories about kidnapping, long story), and found that they are often full of very suggestive text - basically the male version of a romance novel but using much stronger language - well...let's just say if my H had been home at the time of my discovery, I would have jumped him! Like I've said, I keep one of those novels in my sidetable now, and when I particulary want to get hot and heavy with H, I might pull out that little novel and reread the earmarked pages and...there you go!

Reconsider the engagement before it's too late.

You say your first H was involved in numerous affairs interlaced with lots of porn. How long did you put up with that? How long were you single before starting to date your fiance? Have you explored if there is something that attracted you to your H who cheated, and if that also attracts you to your fiance?

If you've already been in one M that ended badly, I would think you'd run the opposite way from someone who showed signs of some of the same bad behavior.

et's just say if my H had been home at the time of my discovery, I would have jumped him! Like I've said, I keep one of those novels in my sidetable now, and when I particulary want to get hot and heavy with H, I might pull out that little novel and reread the earmarked pages and...there you go!
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kidnapping, huh?
the only romance novel I could ever stomach involved a kidnapping.....civil war era... it's pretty graphic and pretty gruff for a romance novel....the 'hero' is very Clint Eastwood.
I first read t when I was 14 and I now have hardback copy of it.....I find myself looking for it every spring. Is that way they call it mating season? LOL

I CAN'T agree with this more! We always recommend that anyone breaking up with any partner consider not dating again for 6 months to a year, just to get a handle on yourself. Learn about yourself. Learn to like yourself. Learn to be self-sufficient and not need to please a man to prove your self-worth. All these things go hand in hand with keeping you from picking yet another deadbeat. Not to say your fiance is, but statistics prove that we nearly always subconsciously seek out the exact same type of person, every time. One reason for that is that we subconsciously seek to marry our father - or make sure we DON'T marry our father, and therefore we look for all these subtle things they do. And we don't even realize it!

So please consider stepping back and doing some reading and maybe therapy on yourself, learn about your FOO (family of origin) issues, maybe start your own thread here, and we'll be glad to offer more specific advice.

I'll start with an illustration. If it is too simplistic, just skip down to my premise.

Think of a marble and a basketball. It is easy to see how they are different. Comparatively, a bball is big and a marble is small. A marble is rigid and a bball has some give. A bball has a textured surface and a marble is smooth. They do, however, exhibit some similarities. They are both spherical, they roll, bounce and are used in games. Therefore, two things can be both similar and dissimilar at the same time.

I concede that a porn movie and "The Bridges of Madison County" are not the same, so there is no point in telling me what those differences are. It is obvious, while the similarities are not so. A valid criticism would be how the similarities I point out are not valid.

My premise: There are some similarities in a porno and "The Bridges of Madison County"

Here are some:

1) They are both FICTION. This is important, b/c some issues may occur when people do not understand the difference between reality and fantasy

2) They both depict behaviors that, if enacted in reality, are NOT healthy for a marriage.

3) They both give an image of men and women that are not applicable to real people.

4) They were both intended to be used as a fantasy escape by ADULTS.

4) They were both intended to be used as a fantasy escape by ADULTS.
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I thought We were comparing SF fantasy ?

lots of things could be intended as a fantasy escape for adults.

I don't see how The Bridges of Madison County was intended to be a sexual fantasy escape for adults. But, I guess some people might....so, if you are comparing it to porn......are you saying it's the escape from reality that the reader/looker is after?

Well, Glenn Close was feeling unfulfilled in her life and had an affair with Clint Eastwood, so yes I see that as a SF fantasy. I suppose you could call it a relationship fantasy with SF.

I believe that escape from reality is one of the reasons that anyone would indulge in fiction of any kind. Take any popular fiction work. Normal people know it's not real. If you watch, say Mission Impossible because you are bored, then your reality must have some elements of boredom. I believe that crime dramas are watched primarily by people who are not in law enforcement.

Ask yourself why you view fictional media, how does it compare to your reality?

Well, Glenn Close was feeling unfulfilled in her life and had an affair with Clint Eastwood, so yes I see that as a SF fantasy. I suppose you could call it a relationship fantasy with SF.

I believe that escape from reality is one of the reasons that anyone would indulge in fiction of any kind. Take any popular fiction work. Normal people know it's not real. If you watch, say Mission Impossible because you are bored, then your reality must have some elements of boredom. I believe that crime dramas are watched primarily by people who are not in law enforcement.



********************************
I believe it was Meryl Streep not Glenn Close.
And I thought we were talking the novel not he movie...but, no matter.
BUT, I don not consider it an SF fantasy....That was HER SF fantasy,not the viewers or the readers.....ONLY if the viewer/reader is watching and putting themselves in the her place and fantasizing about having an affair/relationship/sex etc....... can I see it as SF fantasy.....otherwise, I consider it just entertainment.
Can you say the same thing for porn?


You also said....
Ask yourself why you view fictional media, how does it compare to your reality?

I don not usually seek to view fictional media to fantasize......about SF or anything else.
I think it's quite the opposite w/ porn.
This comparison isn't going anywhere.....are you trying to point out that porn is Not intended for adult sexual fantasy?
or are you trying to point out that a novel/movie that involves any type of sex or an affair IS sexual fantasy?
I am not buying it.

Or are you simply trying to say that porn and a novel or a movie...all fiction as you say....is just an escape from reality? (Is that saying that you are trying to escape the reality of having just 1 sexual partner (your spouse) when you fantasize/masturbate to porn?

let's talk about the differences.

I believe that escape from reality is one of the reasons that anyone would indulge in fiction of any kind. Take any popular fiction work. Normal people know it's not real. If you watch, say Mission Impossible because you are bored, then your reality must have some elements of boredom. I believe that crime dramas are watched primarily by people who are not in law enforcement.
***********************************
Why are you talking about crime dramas?
I wouldn't call all fiction an escape from reality......sometimes I read historical novels or go to see a particular movie because I am interested in the era....I would call that recreational entertainment...not an escape from reality and not fantasy.....particularly not Sexual Fantasy.


I believe people view porn for sexual fantasy almost 100% of the time. If you want to make a true comparison.....let's compare a XXX movie/theatre to your average Regal movie theatre showing a typical R rated movie that has some steamy sex scenes in it...(or if you prefer....a date movie like the Bridges of Madison County that doesn't show much sex but is about an affair/relationship......but, *I* see no comparison to a movie like THAT..... unless you are trying to point out that womens SF fantasizes are about relationships and not sex...to which I would say...I think you a very,very wrong.)
Maybe we should have a discussion about what people masturbate to?

This I believe, it's really the bottom line of what MrG was saying. At least, that's how I read it.

*******************************************
Well, if that is what you are trying to point out, Mrs.G...then let's discuss THAT.

Your're probably right, I honestly could not remember the character's names, so I used the actors, albeit incorrectly.



So what you are saying is that what happens is in the mind of the viewer, not what happens on the screen that matters? Do I have that right?

Could you see how "Bridges" COULD stimulate either a romantic or SF fantasy in someone else?

As for porn as "just entertainment". My guess would be that it is used for stimulation rather than entertainment in most cases. I have heard of Bachelorette parties where it was shown and they just laughed at it. I don't think they were turned on. So it depends on who is watching (or reading).



This is very helpful to me, as it clarifies my thinking on this. The first thing I have to do is step back and broaden my focus. I suppose that what I am saying is that all fiction, perhaps all entertainment is designed to stimulate SOMETHING. Not necessarily SF fantasies. So it could stimulate imagination, wonder, curiosity, and yes fantasy. I think that what I am trying to point out is that "Bridges" CAN stimulate something in a person that has effect on a realtionship. Then again it might not, depends on the person, as you pointed out above.

I am not suggesting that porn is not intended for SF fantasy, nor that any type of novel/movie with sex is intended for SF fantasy, though it COULD be used that way.


Your response is making me re think that. Escape from reality is not the only thing that happens. When you are involved in reading or watching fiction, you are looking for stimulation. Not just for SF fantasy, ENs come in different flavors right? But in any event, you want to be entertained, your imagination stimulated, your curiosity satisfied, to learn something you didn't know before.



I suppose what I am saying is that there are things depicted that I have never thought of. From there, I can show my W and see what her thoughts are. If it was the reality of my sex life, then what's the point? If she is good with it, great, if not, move on to the next thing. Let me point this out again: I am stimulated by what the people are DOING, I have no desire for those particular people.

When I view porn, there is no maturbation involved. Does that change your view of the impact? Just curious.



We can if you like. There are many more differences than similarities.

I agree, not all fiction is about Sexual fantasy. It is some type of stimulation, however. I too, like historical media. Have you been following the miniseries on HBO about John Adams?




Yes, probably about 99.9%


Well, it's easier to see the differences, no doubt. Stated simply, the comparison is this: The media gives an image of men and women that is not realistic. I think this is true of both porn and "Notting Hill". Could you agree with that statement?

I have read some books on women's sexual fantasies, and I have to admit I was shocked at how explicit they could be. Things I would never have dreamed.


I have no idea what people masturbate to. I understand that women masturbate, but not as much as men. Does the masturbation put a different light on it for you?

Not exactly, see my response to Nia.

sorry, i can figure out how to use the quotes.

I agree that the media gives us some unrealistic images of men and women....in many different ways.
*******************************************
Maybe I misunderstood what you wanted to discuss when you posted this...

I do understand the difference between pornography and reading a novel. Do you understand the similarities? Would you like to have a mature discussion on the subject? If so, great. If not, that's fine too.
**************************************
ok, you made the point that the similarities are that they are both unrealistic and fantasy...often an ecscape from reality.

so, now let's talk about the differences...

you said
I have no idea what people masturbate to. I understand that women masturbate, but not as much as men. Does the masturbation put a different light on it for you?
******************************

From the beginning I thought we were discussing porn vs. a novel that involved sex scenes, and since most people view porn and masturbate I do think that sheds a different light on it.

I have no idea what people masturbate to. I understand that women masturbate, but not as much as men.
*************************************
you have no idea?
I think porn is a pretty safe bet...I know a lot of it very clearly states that that is what it is intended for.

yes, women masturbate...and often to porn. I am not trying to separate men from women here, I wanted to discuss the differences between porn and a novel.
I do not think that most novels are written w/ the main intention being Sexual fantasy and masturbation. (like porn is)
Some are, Yes....but, they would be sex stories......
so, what do you see as the differences in porn and a novel that has some sex scenes in it??



I too, like historical media. Have you been following the miniseries on HBO about John Adams?
*****************************

yes.... enjoying it very much.

I should have said that I have no idea of ALL the things that people masturbate to. I suppose you could masturbate to an underwear ad if you were so inclined.




You are correct, the intention of the two things are largely different. Let me ask you a question, though. With regard to sex stories, do you consider that the same, better or worse than porn movies?

Ok, let me back way up here and share my thoughts from the beginning, and maybe that will help.

There is a specific objection to porn, (not the only one) that is something like this:

A person (man or woman) looks at porn, and the actors are young, fit (but not always attractive in my experience) and uninhibited. The viewing spouse looks at his/her spouse and compares their physical attributes and actions unfairly. This is of course, a valid complaint.

I have posited that one of the issues with porn is that it is explict. That is to say, it makes no pretense of plot, dialogue, story, or production values. All of which is true. It is produced for one reason, and that is a direct shot of stimulation. Nothing resembling art or storytelling is going on. (Though that was not always the case).

I should mention as well that there are explicit "instructional videos" available. These have the stated intention of furthering the sexual knowledge of the viewer, but they are explicit nonetheless, and will likely result in the same sort of stimulation.

Now, to a romance novel (or bodice ripper, trashy dime store novel, whatever you want to call it.) In it are descriptions of men and women in the way they look, speak, and act that are in no way representative of how real people in America are in 2008. I am saying that people can become stimulated by this, perhaps in a sexual way, or perhaps get an idea of a relationship should be that is unfair to compare to a real person.

Now, if a person understands the difference in a work of fiction (be it porn or novel), then they know it is unfair to compare a real person to what they see or read.

In other words, it's not the media, but the consumer of the media that puts a value, negative or otherwise on the experience.

So let me restate: They are alike in that they CAN provide stimulation to the user, though not in the same way. they also both provide an image of men and women that are not realistic, and if used improperly, can be harmful to a relationship with a real person.

I will say that what got me thinking this way was my grandmother. She was a lady with very strong views about porn. It was disgusting, it was degrading to women. It was base, and she had no interest in it. When she died, and we went through her things, there must have been about 300 Harlequin romances in her spare bedroom. I can only think she was in a Harlequin book club or something.




I am listening to the audiobook on which it was based at the same time. I highly reccomend it.

You are correct, the intention of the two things are largely different. Let me ask you a question, though. With regard to sex stories, do you consider that the same, better or worse than porn movies?
**********************************
good question.
*I* think if the intent is the same, it's pretty much the same.....IMO, porn is more visually graphic, it puts an actually face and body to he fantasy....so in some ways, I can see where it might be more offensive(to a spouse)..... I also think a lap dance is more offensive than porn (and a prostitute even more offensive).....but, the intent (sexual fantasy) is pretty much the same.

She was a lady with very strong views about porn. It was disgusting, it was degrading to women. It was base, and she had no interest in it. When she died, and we went through her things, there must have been about 300 Harlequin romances in her spare bedroom. I can only think she was in a Harlequin book club or something.
*****************************

I really can not put a Harlequin romance in the same category as porn or sex stories.....doing that greatly reduces a womans sexuality, IMO.

You seem to be trying to point out that women's fascination w/ romance equals sexual fantasy for them and that porn is sexual fantasy for men. I have heard the comparison before and I totally disagree w/ it.
romantic/relationship fantasies are NOT sexual fantasies.... they are 2 separate things.
Both CAN lead to problems in a relationship but so can any hobby or outside interest that takes time away from the marriage (relationship).


about your grandmother...
I can see how someone could think porn is degrading.
Do you find harlequin romance novels degrading?

Was your grandfather offended by her collection?
It sounds like you were...why?

I would never say that two things are equal. No two things are equal, but they can have similarities.
I can see a similarity, narrowly defined, about unrealistic expectations of your spouse, if it is based on one of these fantasies.

I don't think that we are in great disagreement here. My point was that romance fantasy and sexual fantasy can be harmful to a relationship, or not, depending on the people involved.



I don't think of romance novels as degrading, just unrealistic. My grandfather died when my Dad was 8, I have no idea if she was reading them then. Her second husband did not share an opinion on this, remember I found out after she died (I guess I should say that her second husband died about 16 years before she did).

No I was not offended by her choice of reading material, just surprised, and amused, it seemed so unlike her. I suppose you don't know people as well as you think you do.

I used to work in a bookstore when I was 17-19, and every month, the Harlequin books would come in, and here would troop in this long line of women - housewives, grandmas, all types, and swoop up the whole lot! I tried looking at them, because I was fascinated that these women would come, rain or shine, to get hold of this pile of books the day they came out, every month. It was the weirdest thing. But I came to see that it was their fix. They'd never get that swashbuckling pirate in their lives, the handsome stable boy who would carry her into the straw and make love to her, ...you get the idea. Girls grow up waiting for that Prince Charming, just like guys fantasize about Pamela Anderson. When they get married and realize they'll never get him, they turn to Harlequin. To imagine what sex would have been like had they found that prince.

Girls grow up waiting for that Prince Charming, just like guys fantasize about Pamela Anderson. When they get married and realize they'll never get him, they turn to Harlequin. To imagine what sex would have been like had they found that prince.


***********************

I see the problem...
Pam Anderson......somehow her choice in men does not equal Prince Charming. LOL
To be honest, I think the real problem is that many girls have grown up w/ the 1 man forever...Prince Charming fantasy... while guys got a new playmate every month...a bunch on the side too.

So, you think women really do that?
I am sure some do, I just never thought it was that common...but, if I think about the dull lives of the 1950's housewife, I can see where they would be searching for some sort of escape.

Maybe I have been missing something all these years....Romances were always a bit too mushy for me....but, I certainly read fiction and had "my" version of a prince charming ......the difference for me, was that I made MY man the focus of my desires....I didn't need to imagine having sex w/ prince charming because I was quite content having sex w/ my guy......if I read a steamy novel or a watched a sexy movie and got worked up, it felt natural for me to redirect those feelings toward my husband.
If I had a fantasy about being carried to a haystack, I would nudge him toward one.
Once I committed to him, I noticed other guys but I never went looking for them. IF I found myself attracted to one, I knew I needed to distance myself and find a way to recapture my feelings for my H.
My version of the fairy tale always had a lot to do with a committed relationship between 1 man and 1 woman....the happily ever after thing......and to me, that included a good sex life.
And to have a good sex life, I needed to feel attracted to my H. So, I worked at that.

But, this was MY reality (fairy tale) and it certainly seems to
a good fit for marriage, but not necessarily a healthy one if you end up married to man who accepts this but grew up w/ a different fairytale......a new playmate every month.....that you must hide from the woman you marry.

I think was Mr. Wonderful who mentioned that guys grow up thinking porn is something they are entitled to but need to hide from wife and from what I have learned this is very common.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!

.... but alas, back to the porn issue.... To me, it has absolutely NO place at all for any reason in MY marriage. It's destructive to intimacy, encourages deviant behaviors, leads to lies, betrayals and deception- puts distance between Husband & Wife, destroys trust, encourages extramarital affairs, prevents any true intimate closeness- both physically and emotionally from developing naturally and in a healthy manner between spouses.

When a man loves, values and respects a woman, his wife; SHE ALONE should be the one to whom he turns for SF... and as a Wife, who loves and values her Husband- she should be able to reciprocate. Just MVHO.... and I do love, want, need and desire my Husband- in every way- I find him very attractive, sexy and I truly enjoy sex with him- in fact, I crave it! And ALL my fantasies, desires, dreams and needs are centered around my HUSBAND-- as they should be for my sexual fulfillment, in every way. And yes- I have told him that, and I do tell him that often.

I would really like to see more of every one else's opinions, points-of-view and thoughts on this particular perspective. Am I the only one--male or female-- who views marriage, vows and SF between spouses this way?

I wholeheartedly agree....you said it well. You are not alone.





I wholeheartedly agree....you are not alone.

Of course, you are the only one to decide what is and what is not acceptable in your marriage. IMO, porn does none of the things that you mention. What causes those things is a defect of character. This defect of character will cause the problems you mention whether porn is involved or not.


You are far from alone on this. Many people feel the way you do. I would never criticize your POV on this, I just have a different one. I do feel that if a woman is to SUCCESSFULLY get her H to stop, she does need to understand why he does it. Every destructive behavior (and yes, it CAN be destructive) has a payoff. Ignoring a psychological payoff will almost always result in a failure to modify behavior.

I am doing my best to get to this point with my husband...it's hard to get him to open up- and many of his replies are the infamous "I don't know"... HOW can I talk to him, ask him, work with him to get him to look within himself and see the reasons and be honest with me AND HIMSELF about why he does it, why he has not been able to stop it and what can we do to overcome it together and halp rebuild our trust and marriage??????????

ICH---
thank you!

4Better:

Most likely your H is ashamed of his behavior. Also likely that he wants to "protect" you from the truth of whatever his payoff is for engaging in conduct that he KNOWS you despise and that could end his marriage.

I couldn't begin to guess what it is. It could be anything from a fetish to a control issue to just plain boredom. Whatever it is, clearly he is not comfortable sharing with you.

Can you handle the truth? My guess is that you can. Your H's shame may keep him thinking that you can't.

Perhaps an IC (preferably male) can help him get to the root. Sucky thing is, he has to want it. You can't do it for him, as you know.

Peace

Yes, you do have a very valid point here- but then the character defect is what would lend to a person's addiction/obsession/ frequent use of Porn, and flagrant disregard for one's spouse and their feelings as well, and their choice- albeit a subconcious one or premeditated one- to lie and be deceitful to their spouse am I right?

That's right. Think of it as akin to being married to a drunk. For whatever reason, this is a person who cannot use alcohol in a non-destructive way. It's that reason that is at issue. What makes someone drink to excess? Why can't they deal with their issues in another way? What makes someone able to use alcohol responsibly, and others risk family, freedom, career, and their own life? A defect of character.

From this, two things naturally happen:
1) If you are married to a drunk, you want them to stop drinking
2) If you are divorced from a drunk, you don't want your next spouse to drink at all

No doubt drying out cures a lot of evils. The problem is that the issues that resulted in alcoholism still must be dealt with. I believe that ALL successful addiction treatment programs use some form of this.

-Goodwrench

You fail to understand the destructive nature of pornography. Perhaps you are fortunate in that you haven't viewed much of it and have escaped it's numbing effect.

Too you have only considered the effect on the viewer without regard to its impact on those with whom he relates.

For example, she said it's destructive to intimacy. You are in no position to disagree. His wife, knowing he views pornography with some regularity, is disallowed to feel that she and she alone is the sole object of his deep affection and appreciation. Regardless of its effect on him, the negative result felt by his wife is caused by pornography. It isn't much of a stretch to see how this dominoes with putting distance between them; with causing a cloud of distrust to hover overhead;with obstructing the attainment of the best possible closeness.

Ideally, as God intended for our best happiness, we are not to fornicate. And when we marry we are to do so to the complete exclusion of all others. If we obeyed and followed the design, we would have the optimum chance of reachng the highest possible level of intimacy a man and woman can attain in this present world.

But we do fornicate and we do view motion pictures of others fornicating and so undermine our best chances for this near perfect intimacy.

You don't have to believe that pornography is a prominant cause of these destructive effects. It doesn't care what you believe or don't believe to do what it does.

Another scenerio: does it cause extra-marital entanglements. All it has to do is create dissatisfaction and stir curosity and enflame lust. Then should an opportunity present itself--an opportunity might be an attractive co-worker who pays particular attention to him during a time of unusual stress at home--the possiblity of falling is strongly enhanced by having been exposed to pornography.

I viewed far too much of the vile stuff in my lifetime. I would avoid it like the plague had I the opportunity to go back in time. A man knows he should avoid it, especially a married man, and he cannot go home and say to his wife, " Hey, honey guess what I saw today!" He is -and should be -ashamed. It has no redeeming value whatsoever.


This I will posit for you personally Goodwrench. I notice you have two daughters if I read your signature correctly. Of the young men they date and associate with would you prefer they fill their minds with the adventures of the Hardy Boys and subscribe to a fishing journal or spend their spare time watching pornographic videos and reading Hustler magazines?


And for what it's worth, to defend pornography in any way, I regard as a defect of character in and of itself.

For example, she said it's destructive to intimacy. You are in no position to disagree. His wife, knowing he views pornography with some regularity, is disallowed to feel that she and she alone is the sole object of his deep affection and appreciation. Regardless of its effect on him, the negative result felt by his wife is caused by pornography. It isn't much of a stretch to see how this dominoes with putting distance between them; with causing a cloud of distrust to hover overhead;with obstructing the attainment of the best possible closeness.

***********************************

I have been discussing porn w/ people for several years now and I think you make a very interesting point that isn't discussed much.

I have heard many wives/gfs say they "accept' porn as part of life and realize that their bfs or H's will always 'use' it and t knowing THAT keeps them guarded and sexually inhibited.
They do not feel safe enough to be sexually vulnerable or uninhibited w/ their own husbands......most of these women have shut down sexually when it comes to H....yet, several of them have had affairs where they let loose.
I sometimes think that what many men get from porn (the thrill of being desired, lusted) most women can only get from interacting w/ a live person.

Most of these couples manage to get along OK but from what I see it is destructive to the intimacy in the relationship.


And..
I know many wives who 'accept' their H's porn as part of life....even indulge in it themselves sometimes....insist that it is no big deal.
And in MOST of these marriages (not all) I see there is a lack of intimacy that I don't think either spouse is quite aware of.
There is an attitude of..."He does his thing and I do mine...what the other doesn't know won't hurt them."

In my own marriage....I was MUCH more sexually open and uninhibited when I felt my H was putting me first in our relationship and not seeking sexual stimulation outside the relationship. (not saying that he won't notice other women.... just not seek them out to indulge in sexual fantasy)
I felt safer and therefore much more comfortable being sexually uninhibited with him.

I appreciate your sharing the above. It both undergirds and validates the heart of my argument. You have no idea how valuable your contribution is to me. Thank you.

You may have something there.


I don't doubt these thing are happening in her marriage. My point is that they are caused by her H. Whatever his issues are, they will still be there if he stops using, or if it did not exist.



You write of porn as a sentient entity. I just cannot see that.


Really? I always thought that extra-marital entanglements were caused by married people becoming entangled. To me, blaming porn is like blaming the OP. It's the wayward who causes the pain.


Are you sure about this? Do you think that there are not men who CAN go home and say to their wives, "Guess what I say today?"



Well I have no control over whom DD18 dates. If I did, she would not be dating the bozo she is now. If porn were his only vice, and DD was ok with it, who am I to object? As for DD13, she doesn't date, though I suspect it will come soon. When it does, I have no control over the boys' reading material, and if it were porn, I doubt they would tell me. When I was a teenager, porn was not as readily available as it is now. But guess what? Even without porn, my hormones and lust were raging at incredible rates. As a normal teenage boy, I thought about sex all the time, even without porn. Being young and immature, I did not have the proper attitude toward the female gender, even without porn. What made me capable of a proper romantic and sexual relationship was time, experience, and personal growth, not the elimination of porn.


You are entitled to your opinion. I will say that my point is not particularly to defend porn. If eliminating it from your life is what it takes to make you happy, more power to you. It is just MY opinion that porn is a symptom, not the cause.

Peace

Sounds to me like your H would have to be an idiot to indulge. Why do you think he would anyway, given what was at stake?

Sounds to me like your H would have to be an idiot to indulge. Why do you think he would anyway, given what was at stake?
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immaturity.
lack of values. fear of intimacy. male entitlement. peer pressure.
He had developed the "habit" long before he met me and couldn't resist having his cake and eating it too.

Being young and immature, I did not have the proper attitude toward the female gender, even without porn. What made me capable of a proper romantic and sexual relationship was time, experience, and personal growth, not the elimination of porn.
*************************************

can you see how a young man who looks to porn to educate himself can get the wrong message bout sex and relationships?

Sorry for intruding, the following logic just struck me:


I'm not the one that wrote that, but it seems to me that in this case you are both on the same page. I took the statement "[Pornography] doesn't care..." to be specifically pointing out that porn is NOT a sentient entity.

Your response to this part misses the mark entirely. It is the presence of pornography which dimishishes her ability to have the intimacy she desires.

Therefore, your point is pointless...

Correct. And it is no respecter of persons.

This is patently false. Internet pornography may not have been available but there was a plethora of other sources,evidently, unbeknownst to you.

This question can best be answered by him alone don't you think?

No doubt there are. But again with what was being considered and discussed this is irrelevant. You seem to have difficultly maintaining a sharp focus on the core of what is being discussed.

So then your answer is it wouldn't matter in the least what kind of influences bore upon the young men courting your daughters.

ICH:

I am done with you. You follow me around the board, putting words in my mouth, and attacking me personally. How this helps anything is beyond me.

I tried to learn from what you have to say, but it seems that all you are interested in is getting personal. I have no desire to make it personal with you.

I will not respond to your posts. If you respond to mine, I will not read them.

Peace be with you.

Whom is following Whom--questionable.

Putting words in your mouth...even if I tried, there isn't room with all the words of your own in there.



You're breaking my heart.


Yes you will.

Mr. Goodwrench,

I hope you continue reading and responding to this thread. You were right on the money in a couple of your responses to me and although I am anti-porn in any form at the moment, it is always interesting to read another point of view.

Thanks. One thing that gets lost in the low signal/noise ratio is that I respect the POV of people who don't want anything to do with it. In a case where a spouse is feeling disrespected by it, I am 100% in favor of a porn-free marriage. The main point I have been trying to make is that when someone is viewing it, and the spouse is offended by it, there are clearly two conflicting points of view on it.

That being said, if you want your spouse to stop, you need to understand his/her POV.

If it is so offensive that one simply cannot forgive (like a PA) , then nothing I write will be of any use. If so, I say ignore it.

If, on the other hand, one wants to save the marriage, and have it porn-free, understanding the POV of the offending spouse is the first step in a POJA. I honestly believe this to be a valid MB principle.

It seems to me that people who take the approach of I find it offensive, therefore you must stop, and there will be no discussion are rarely successful.

Also, I have new respect for the POV of porn = infidelity. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It seems to me then, that if you view porn as infidelity, why not apply the MB principles for surviving an affair? Start with Plan A, which is far removed from AO and DJ.

Absolutely, if that is the only sex ed he gets. It would be like your only view of working in a restaurant is "Top Chef".

As I said, in my teenage years I saw very little porn. I still had a skewed view of relationships. Lack of porn did not change that. Consider my sex ed:

Parents had no advice other than keep it in my pants. Good advice to a point, but was I supposed to keep it there forever?

School gave me nothing beyond reproductive mechanics and STDs.

Church had nothing to say, beyond don't do it. Still good advice, but limited.

So what I learned was from my peers. Not much better than porn.

Depends on how you read it. If you describe something as inherently evil, you are giving it human qualities.

I believe that PEOPLE can do evil things. Things are not good or evil, they just are.

I don't want to devolve into semantics, just my POV.

Absolutely, if that is the only sex ed he gets. It would be like your only view of working in a restaurant is "Top Chef".
****************************

not sure I understand your analogy.

As limited as it is, that's all it is.

I guess I should quit using analogies.

I was saying that media gives us a view that is not realistic and not really helpful.

In the same way that porn is not what a healthy sexual relationship is all about, neither are so-called reality shows an accurate picture of what their purported subject is.

He is saying that there is more involved in the workings of a restaurant than as seen by considering the business solely from the chef's point of view. i.e. limited.

You should quit trying to impress others with knowledge and experience you don't possess. You attempt to hoodwink with a flourish of vocabulary and concepts you have only read somewhere.

Goodwrench,

The nagging question of the moment is:

As an husband and father of at least one daughter yet at home, how is it you have so much time to spend in these forums? There is something about you that doesn't ring true. You rarely make reference to a wife except for an occasional 'her' or 'she'.
Goodwrench, I think you have a lot in common with a three dollar bill.

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I have never watched Top Chef, and I wasn't sure if you were trying to make a more specific analogy.

My H once tried to make the analogy that his looking at porn was like me looking at pottery barn catalogs. I imagine he picked that line up in one of the mens magazines.
I found it pretty offensive....but, for reasons that never even entered his mind. It was an interesting discussion.

Would be wonderful if he decided to exchange porn for pottery.

Think of all the useful articles you could have around the house.

I'll bet. One thing I am unsure on from your posts. Were you successful in getting your H to quit viewing porn? If so, what was it that worked?

I'll bet. One thing I am unsure on from your posts. Were you successful in getting your H to quit viewing porn? If so, what was it that worked?
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I never set out to get my H to quit viewing porn.
I never forbid my H to view porn....I did tell him what I didn't like about it and that I didn't want him going to strip clubs(that goes back to before marriage when bachelor parties at strip clubs were common) He told me he understood and it wasn't an issue.

My H was very good at hiding his IB for most of our marriage.
he traveled for work.......several years ago, he realized he had a problem w/ it and realized his problem and continually trying to cover it up was keeping him defensive and distant (which made me not trust him) and keeping us from having the relationship he craved.

He decided to see an IC to learn more about himself.
He now says he stays away from it. I do not monitor him...but,if I ever find out he's gone to a strip club again, I will leave him.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you say that after realizing what it was doing to his M, he cured himself?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you say that after realizing what it was doing to his M, he cured himself?
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Well, I didn't want to get into all the details.....he didn't REALIZE all by himself.....it took facing the loss of the relationship for him to realize he wanted to 'cure' himself....and, it's an ongoing process.

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Mr Goodwrench,
Just want to let you know....
The answers I gave to your question above were not my opinions or assumptions....they came from my husband... we have discussed the issue in detail over the last few of years.

He once talked about porn and sex the way you do.
I am not 100% anti porn....I try to be realistic about it... but much of what ItCouldHappen says has played out in my own marriage and I can not pretend that porn didn't play a part in it.
Did it all happen because of porn? No....
but,porn played a significant role and it was the "beginning" for my H.

Once again, I don't want to make any assumptions here, but it sounds like it has worked out to the satisfaction of you both, correct?

If so, I am very happy that the two of you were able to do so. Like I said, the fact that your H understood why he was doing it was critical to his ability to stop, which was critical to your M.

I like a success story as much as anyone.

Once again, I don't want to make any assumptions here, but it sounds like it has worked out to the satisfaction of you both, correct?
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Betrayal causes lots of problems. Trust is difficult. We are still working at rebuilding the relationship.....some days are good, some difficult.

Like I said, the fact that your H understood why he was doing it was critical to his ability to stop, which was critical to your M.
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true.....but, he spent an awful lot of time sneaking and hiding IB from me, and trying to convince himself the reason he couldn't talk to me about was because I would never accept it.

What do you think about using the MB principles of surviving infidelity in this instance?

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Well...that IS what brought me to MB in the first place....I googled marriage help because I wanted o find away to restore the intimacy in our marriage...that was a few years ago...I read this site and ordered HN/HN and tried that route....it went well for a while....and then, somewhere along the way I found out about more and more IB and cover ups etc......it gets quite difficult to meet needs when your lovebank keeps getting drained...but, we do still use MB as a guideline.

okay, maybe I am really off in left field, here...what is "IB" ???

okay, maybe I am really off in left field, here...what is "IB" ???
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irritable bowel? NO..it stands for Independent Behavior. It was a big problem in my marriage.

Okay... feels like a real "duh" moment! LOL!!!
sorry... It's been a long week!.....

So then, I guess that H looking at porn on the computer and magazines, etc. could also be considered "IB" ? Especially since it hurts our M... and me...

In that context, I see it as an IB. The reccomendation for dealing with independent behavior is POJA and the rules for successful negotiation.

This is a link to the article on negotiation:



http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html


If you see it as infidelity, then MB has a different set of actions to reccommend.

I see it as both... I've already done the infidelity board... left it, mainly due to so much negativity....eating me up just as much as the situ with my H... not sure what to do anymore, for my own personal emotional well being. Perhaps a new thread? on that topic- MY emotional well being...

I understand what you mean about the negativity. Have you tried a plan A?

I think that is where we are now... We are talking, have initiated MC appts, and are trying to share points of view, fears, expectations, etc.

We both realize that we both have things in our relationship that we have been lax on, neglectful of....and we are trying to compensate for and replace the neglect with much more attention and concerted effort to repair, renew and rebuild our relationship.
At I know I am--and I think/hope/believe that he is too... He is not so vocal about things- just his way, I guess... but we are trying.

RE: Catperson:


WHAT--just What if a man is partaking in the viewing and often 'satisfying himself' to porn... "INSTEAD OF" or more than having sex with his wife? ESPECIALLY if the Wife DOES have a very high interest and desire for sex with her husband? How does it fit when the wife wants/needs/desires- has very strong sexual urges (for her Husband)--and he repeatedly turns down her advances, shows little direct sexual interest and advances for his wife? how is it to be taken, when a man is found masturbating to porn-- less than an hour after telling his wife- who has asked for sex and/or offered "whatever you desire" (BJ, etc) he is not interested in sex?????

Not really meaning to rehash old news- but just a real curiosity here on how your views may differ- given a different set of circumstances?

Seems to me that is the real problem. Does he give a reason for refusing your sexual advances? You are entitled to one. If he gives a reason, what then does he say when you ask him why, after just refusing sex, he is choosing self abuse?

I don't think anything short of a good MC will work this out.

Is this a deal breaker for you? Are you not willing to be married to a man who refuses sex, but chooses porn and masturbation? If so, does he know that his M is on the line?

If I understand you, you consider this infidelity. Are you willing to live with infidelity? If not, does he know this?

A lot of men are used to their W complaining, or nagging, or yelling. It gets tuned out after a while. If this is something you are going to leave the M over, let him know that.

Yes- it is. i have told him-- in no uncertain terms this last time.... he has not turned to porn & MB every time-- just a very few times; usually his refusal is followed by nothing but SLEEP and a very early wake up call for work...


I do, I am not...and Yes- he does know that, now. I made it clear after the last time I found porn on his computer.


I have never nagged him on this- but we did have some bitter confrontations: 4 all together in the course of our relationship-
I don't think he 'tuned it out'--rather he just didn't stop to think about the consequences of his actions - and to attempt to avoid hurting me-- he chose to lie to me about it, that is where he did the most damage. I'm certain he knows that now... and he did tell me himself-- that when he did view the porn-- he WAS NOT thinking- just acting; and seemed to be really ashamed of himself/his actions from there. Perhaps one of the key factors in his deciding to ask for help, in deciding to attend MC and in his choosing to try to work with me and communicate with me more than bottling things up inside to fester and rot...

Sounds like you have done all you can do on this. I hope it works out for the two of you.

Namaste

I think I tried to point out several times that, of course, 'instead of' totally changes the picture - because that is not POJA, it's IB. The only way I think it can work in a marriage is if both people are still getting exactly what they want. I have said several times that it has to be something both are ok with, and maybe I have too much exposure to things, but from what I have seen, using it can be very much a natural, perhaps even healthy part of a person's SF needs - IF it is not damaging the partner in any way.

That said, I think that many people view its use through a strong filter based on either religion or lack of self-worth and therefore can prejudge it, i.e. not give it a chance to be a SF tool in a relationship. Just like there are many other ways to engage in SF besides the standard, that can let partners explore each other's sexuality and become closer to each other. Think a weekend at a SF seminar, or shopping together for 'tools' that you can try together (even films), or going to the bookstore and getting a book with new ideas and trying them together. The key word is together.

And it's possible that, if you were to become more creative and open in your SF with H, it may be exactly what he was hoping for and he'd find the other stuff pales in comparison. I really recommend getting something from the bookstore. We have a great book called "52 Invitations to Great Sex" or something like that.

IB is never healthy for a marriage.

Does that make more sense?

I haven't read all the replies to this thread, this forum moves slowly at my office, however I can speak briefly on tis issue.

I have struggles with a pornography addiction for 21 years, I'm only 28 now. There is little that is more devastating to a relationship, with your spouse, yourself, your God, than such an evil. It has warped my views tremendously on women and sexuality in general. I would be wiling to go into more detail, however I've got to leave for a doctors appointment.

TFMM,

Thank you for posting that short paragraph. I hope you will come back and tell more of your story.

My husband, too, is addicted to porn, and has been, since he was 14 years old.

I am so tired of hearing that maybe if we wives would be more inventive, or would give our H's more sex, or would dress sexier, act sexier, BE sexier, that they would prefer to be with us.

That isn't so. Not with a porn addict.

Sushi:

I agree that an addiction is a whole 'nother ball game. What do you think constitutes an addiction. What is your definintion?

Goodwrench I see you're back. You are like a gnat on a warm summer night. You just won't go away and stay away but keep coming back to be an annoyance.

Addiction, Noun Def 2a

The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or involved in something.

If this applies to his involvement with pornography, then he has an addiction to it.

And what's with the salutation: 'Namaste' Are you practitioner of Buddism or Hinduism? Why don't you go and play with your yin-yang and stop being a pest.

I started to type out my own idea about what is addiction, and you know what? It really doesn't matter if it's an addiction, or a compulsion, or even just a habit.

If a man dates and contemplates marriage to a woman who can't tolerate porn, and he doesn't tell her he looks at it regularly, that's wrong.

If a man marries this woman and keeps secrets and keeps hiding the fact that he's looking at it (a LOT), that's wrong.

If a man is caught out in a lie, and lies again saying he will never look at it, that's wrong.

Label it whatever you want to label it. If a man is willing to risk his marriage so that he can sit and wank around to other women, he either doesn't love his wife enough to care that she hurts, or he can't stop doing it, whatever the reason.

I can't disagree that disregarding feelings and lying are wrong. The reason I ask is that as I understand MB, all bets are off when one has an addiction. It's helpful to me to understand what one means by addiction.

Your new name is Gnatwrench......

I am so tired of hearing that maybe if we wives would be more inventive, or would give our H's more sex, or would dress sexier, act sexier, BE sexier, that they would prefer to be with us.
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BTDT
I think he actually got to a point where he preferred to be with me but I still wasn't enough.

Truth be told, you were more than adequate. Most obvious is that you are a real person. Sadly, when a man becomes dependant on pornography for sexual gratification he has along with it become accustomed to being without any burden of performance anxiety of any kind. This, I think, becomes one of its hooks which is set more deeply the longer one is involved with it.

I doubt there are many, if any, men who wouldn't prefer they had never been exposed to pornography but rather had developed over time the intimacy with their wives which was discussed earlier in this or a related thread. Pornography is very destructive where this is concerned. And I believe if genuine healing is to occur, total abstinence from pornography is a must.

from a a SA recovery site...
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Like masturbation, but in a much more limited scope, pornography can actually be used to promote intimacy and sexual health within a relationship. The scope of this, however, is so small that it is not recommended for anyone struggling with any sexually-compulsive behaviors until they have made the transition from recovery to health. One of the biggest consequences that pornography brings to the equation is its ability to zap the person of their emotional energy. This makes relationships (especially when those relationships involve intimacy) extremely difficult to maintain.
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I don't think people realize the way porn effects the intimacy in the relationship until they are forced to face it.
I didn't want to believe that it had the power to pull my husband away from me again and again.....so much of his emotional energy was spent in fantasy and cover up...there was little left for the relationship.

Your exactly right. I didn't show I loved my wife enough because of my addiction and now shes a WAW. I hope, I pray and I cry everyday and every night that I can save this marriage and prove to her that I love her more then anything on this earth and that I want to be the man I use to be to her and that I want our marriage to flourish once again. She means the world to me and I have hurt her deeply.

My concentration was so great it took away so many things from my wife and my marriage that always use to be there. I only wish I could have realized sooner it was hurting our marriage more then I thought it would help (we were both into it). I hope she realizes I see that now and I will do my best to solely work on my marriage. It's hard when shes a WAW, it's really hard not to say just come home and I will protect you, love you, spend so much time learning your emotional needs that your bank will run over. It's really hard because I know I will do that but she doesn't believe it will stay that way

My concentration was so great it took away so many things from my wife and my marriage that always use to be there. I only wish I could have realized sooner it was hurting our marriage more then I thought it would help (we were both into it).
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I remember telling my H that I didn't mind if he looked at it to help US...it was the exclusivity of it that bothered me.
He looked at me w/ a kind of blank stare....I think (educated dj lol ) all he heard was the 'I don't mind' part and he used it to continue to justify his IB to himself.

So much time is spent trying to normalize it and change people's views (and values) about it that it takes awhile to actually realize that it is often destructive to the development of the relationship.
The intimacy in the relationship needs to develop first...w/ honesty and openness and vulnerability and shared goals and values.... before that, each individual must be emotionally mature enough to be honest w/ themselves before they can be honest w/ a spouse.

Pornography is a addictive and progressive. It is a STRONG natural desire for men to lust women. I think that is why some feel their is nothing WRONG with it. I mean it is a STRONG desire. But, a Christian man has no place in this lifestyle.

There is a book and workshops too - "Every Man's Battle". A porn addicted man is like a drug addicted man. He cannot get through this alone. He needs the help of Christ and accountability. Porn addiction is not natural or a right - it is a weakness. It is the sign of a man that has a low emotional intelligence. Someone never gave him boundaries. He is walking around not keeping his heart and mind in check.

We ARE required to have SOME discipline in our lifes. "If any man come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me" Matt 16:24

I think the only horrible thing about the whole subject is how quiet it is kept. Our fathers should be setting out guidelines in our youth so we have understanding of the way a mans mind works and setting out some direction of how to live by not shaming them for having these desires, but directing them toward a healthy lifestyle with an understanding of the woman's heart and mind as well.

My husband guards our marriage to such an extreme that he will not talk to a woman he finds attractive if he can avoid it. He even holds his breath if a woman smells good as she walks by. There ARE men who live this way and value their marriage reserve their desires for their wives alone. He will never be immune - it is a matter of vigilance of keeping our relationship good and us guarding ourselves from outside influence - for a lifetime.

IF you are not a Christian, than ignore this message. It won't apply...this is a war waged in the husbands desire for purity and with Christ's help and the support of an understanding wife.

jackie76, you are one lucky lady!! I can't think of a man I've met in the past four years that see's things from your husbands perspective. Not even so called "Christians".

Congrats for finding a man that true and dedicated!!!

Hmm, makes me wonder why it only applies to men...pet peeve of mine...Women watch it too, women get addicted to porn too...But as it is, whenever you read about porn threads all you see is "men this, men that", "he looks at a naked women an it makes me feel less of a person"..

And unless porn is an addiction(replacing you) then whats the big deal...

Yes, it is a HUGE deal if your SO is addicted and/or satisfying himself and rejecting you. But as much as anyone can say it is destructive, it can also be a healthy compliment to a stable realtionship...

....you mean like the flu virus is a healthy compliment to a stable immune system...

Yet another "if you loved me and were attracked to 'me' you would never look at a person of the other sex"...Please..

...still the wiser course is to avoid that which is proven to have caused far more harm than anything else...

Perhaps generally speaking that could be claimed. But not universally, and certainly not in my own situation. Therefore, each individual couple should determine on their own whether it would, and choose accordingly.

most guys that get " into " porn are selfish and wind up taking care of their need by masterbating.meanwhile the mate is left sad and loney yet while with someone.

Boy, listening to all the crap on this particular thread remainds me why i never bring a quetion into this side. If I have a comment fine, but I only trust Dr. Harley to give me a stable answer!!