I believe that escape from reality is one of the reasons that anyone would indulge in fiction of any kind. Take any popular fiction work. Normal people know it's not real. If you watch, say Mission Impossible because you are bored, then your reality must have some elements of boredom. I believe that crime dramas are watched primarily by people who are not in law enforcement.
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Why are you talking about crime dramas?
I wouldn't call all fiction an escape from reality......sometimes I read historical novels or go to see a particular movie because I am interested in the era....I would call that recreational entertainment...not an escape from reality and not fantasy.....particularly not Sexual Fantasy.


I believe people view porn for sexual fantasy almost 100% of the time. If you want to make a true comparison.....let's compare a XXX movie/theatre to your average Regal movie theatre showing a typical R rated movie that has some steamy sex scenes in it...(or if you prefer....a date movie like the Bridges of Madison County that doesn't show much sex but is about an affair/relationship......but, *I* see no comparison to a movie like THAT..... unless you are trying to point out that womens SF fantasizes are about relationships and not sex...to which I would say...I think you a very,very wrong.)
Maybe we should have a discussion about what people masturbate to?

This I believe, it's really the bottom line of what MrG was saying. At least, that's how I read it.

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Well, if that is what you are trying to point out, Mrs.G...then let's discuss THAT.

Your're probably right, I honestly could not remember the character's names, so I used the actors, albeit incorrectly.



So what you are saying is that what happens is in the mind of the viewer, not what happens on the screen that matters? Do I have that right?

Could you see how "Bridges" COULD stimulate either a romantic or SF fantasy in someone else?

As for porn as "just entertainment". My guess would be that it is used for stimulation rather than entertainment in most cases. I have heard of Bachelorette parties where it was shown and they just laughed at it. I don't think they were turned on. So it depends on who is watching (or reading).



This is very helpful to me, as it clarifies my thinking on this. The first thing I have to do is step back and broaden my focus. I suppose that what I am saying is that all fiction, perhaps all entertainment is designed to stimulate SOMETHING. Not necessarily SF fantasies. So it could stimulate imagination, wonder, curiosity, and yes fantasy. I think that what I am trying to point out is that "Bridges" CAN stimulate something in a person that has effect on a realtionship. Then again it might not, depends on the person, as you pointed out above.

I am not suggesting that porn is not intended for SF fantasy, nor that any type of novel/movie with sex is intended for SF fantasy, though it COULD be used that way.


Your response is making me re think that. Escape from reality is not the only thing that happens. When you are involved in reading or watching fiction, you are looking for stimulation. Not just for SF fantasy, ENs come in different flavors right? But in any event, you want to be entertained, your imagination stimulated, your curiosity satisfied, to learn something you didn't know before.



I suppose what I am saying is that there are things depicted that I have never thought of. From there, I can show my W and see what her thoughts are. If it was the reality of my sex life, then what's the point? If she is good with it, great, if not, move on to the next thing. Let me point this out again: I am stimulated by what the people are DOING, I have no desire for those particular people.

When I view porn, there is no maturbation involved. Does that change your view of the impact? Just curious.



We can if you like. There are many more differences than similarities.

I agree, not all fiction is about Sexual fantasy. It is some type of stimulation, however. I too, like historical media. Have you been following the miniseries on HBO about John Adams?




Yes, probably about 99.9%


Well, it's easier to see the differences, no doubt. Stated simply, the comparison is this: The media gives an image of men and women that is not realistic. I think this is true of both porn and "Notting Hill". Could you agree with that statement?

I have read some books on women's sexual fantasies, and I have to admit I was shocked at how explicit they could be. Things I would never have dreamed.


I have no idea what people masturbate to. I understand that women masturbate, but not as much as men. Does the masturbation put a different light on it for you?

Not exactly, see my response to Nia.

sorry, i can figure out how to use the quotes.

I agree that the media gives us some unrealistic images of men and women....in many different ways.
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Maybe I misunderstood what you wanted to discuss when you posted this...

I do understand the difference between pornography and reading a novel. Do you understand the similarities? Would you like to have a mature discussion on the subject? If so, great. If not, that's fine too.
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ok, you made the point that the similarities are that they are both unrealistic and fantasy...often an ecscape from reality.

so, now let's talk about the differences...

you said
I have no idea what people masturbate to. I understand that women masturbate, but not as much as men. Does the masturbation put a different light on it for you?
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From the beginning I thought we were discussing porn vs. a novel that involved sex scenes, and since most people view porn and masturbate I do think that sheds a different light on it.

I have no idea what people masturbate to. I understand that women masturbate, but not as much as men.
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you have no idea?
I think porn is a pretty safe bet...I know a lot of it very clearly states that that is what it is intended for.

yes, women masturbate...and often to porn. I am not trying to separate men from women here, I wanted to discuss the differences between porn and a novel.
I do not think that most novels are written w/ the main intention being Sexual fantasy and masturbation. (like porn is)
Some are, Yes....but, they would be sex stories......
so, what do you see as the differences in porn and a novel that has some sex scenes in it??



I too, like historical media. Have you been following the miniseries on HBO about John Adams?
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yes.... enjoying it very much.

I should have said that I have no idea of ALL the things that people masturbate to. I suppose you could masturbate to an underwear ad if you were so inclined.




You are correct, the intention of the two things are largely different. Let me ask you a question, though. With regard to sex stories, do you consider that the same, better or worse than porn movies?

Ok, let me back way up here and share my thoughts from the beginning, and maybe that will help.

There is a specific objection to porn, (not the only one) that is something like this:

A person (man or woman) looks at porn, and the actors are young, fit (but not always attractive in my experience) and uninhibited. The viewing spouse looks at his/her spouse and compares their physical attributes and actions unfairly. This is of course, a valid complaint.

I have posited that one of the issues with porn is that it is explict. That is to say, it makes no pretense of plot, dialogue, story, or production values. All of which is true. It is produced for one reason, and that is a direct shot of stimulation. Nothing resembling art or storytelling is going on. (Though that was not always the case).

I should mention as well that there are explicit "instructional videos" available. These have the stated intention of furthering the sexual knowledge of the viewer, but they are explicit nonetheless, and will likely result in the same sort of stimulation.

Now, to a romance novel (or bodice ripper, trashy dime store novel, whatever you want to call it.) In it are descriptions of men and women in the way they look, speak, and act that are in no way representative of how real people in America are in 2008. I am saying that people can become stimulated by this, perhaps in a sexual way, or perhaps get an idea of a relationship should be that is unfair to compare to a real person.

Now, if a person understands the difference in a work of fiction (be it porn or novel), then they know it is unfair to compare a real person to what they see or read.

In other words, it's not the media, but the consumer of the media that puts a value, negative or otherwise on the experience.

So let me restate: They are alike in that they CAN provide stimulation to the user, though not in the same way. they also both provide an image of men and women that are not realistic, and if used improperly, can be harmful to a relationship with a real person.

I will say that what got me thinking this way was my grandmother. She was a lady with very strong views about porn. It was disgusting, it was degrading to women. It was base, and she had no interest in it. When she died, and we went through her things, there must have been about 300 Harlequin romances in her spare bedroom. I can only think she was in a Harlequin book club or something.




I am listening to the audiobook on which it was based at the same time. I highly reccomend it.

You are correct, the intention of the two things are largely different. Let me ask you a question, though. With regard to sex stories, do you consider that the same, better or worse than porn movies?
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good question.
*I* think if the intent is the same, it's pretty much the same.....IMO, porn is more visually graphic, it puts an actually face and body to he fantasy....so in some ways, I can see where it might be more offensive(to a spouse)..... I also think a lap dance is more offensive than porn (and a prostitute even more offensive).....but, the intent (sexual fantasy) is pretty much the same.

She was a lady with very strong views about porn. It was disgusting, it was degrading to women. It was base, and she had no interest in it. When she died, and we went through her things, there must have been about 300 Harlequin romances in her spare bedroom. I can only think she was in a Harlequin book club or something.
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I really can not put a Harlequin romance in the same category as porn or sex stories.....doing that greatly reduces a womans sexuality, IMO.

You seem to be trying to point out that women's fascination w/ romance equals sexual fantasy for them and that porn is sexual fantasy for men. I have heard the comparison before and I totally disagree w/ it.
romantic/relationship fantasies are NOT sexual fantasies.... they are 2 separate things.
Both CAN lead to problems in a relationship but so can any hobby or outside interest that takes time away from the marriage (relationship).


about your grandmother...
I can see how someone could think porn is degrading.
Do you find harlequin romance novels degrading?

Was your grandfather offended by her collection?
It sounds like you were...why?

I would never say that two things are equal. No two things are equal, but they can have similarities.
I can see a similarity, narrowly defined, about unrealistic expectations of your spouse, if it is based on one of these fantasies.

I don't think that we are in great disagreement here. My point was that romance fantasy and sexual fantasy can be harmful to a relationship, or not, depending on the people involved.



I don't think of romance novels as degrading, just unrealistic. My grandfather died when my Dad was 8, I have no idea if she was reading them then. Her second husband did not share an opinion on this, remember I found out after she died (I guess I should say that her second husband died about 16 years before she did).

No I was not offended by her choice of reading material, just surprised, and amused, it seemed so unlike her. I suppose you don't know people as well as you think you do.

I used to work in a bookstore when I was 17-19, and every month, the Harlequin books would come in, and here would troop in this long line of women - housewives, grandmas, all types, and swoop up the whole lot! I tried looking at them, because I was fascinated that these women would come, rain or shine, to get hold of this pile of books the day they came out, every month. It was the weirdest thing. But I came to see that it was their fix. They'd never get that swashbuckling pirate in their lives, the handsome stable boy who would carry her into the straw and make love to her, ...you get the idea. Girls grow up waiting for that Prince Charming, just like guys fantasize about Pamela Anderson. When they get married and realize they'll never get him, they turn to Harlequin. To imagine what sex would have been like had they found that prince.

Girls grow up waiting for that Prince Charming, just like guys fantasize about Pamela Anderson. When they get married and realize they'll never get him, they turn to Harlequin. To imagine what sex would have been like had they found that prince.


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I see the problem...
Pam Anderson......somehow her choice in men does not equal Prince Charming. LOL
To be honest, I think the real problem is that many girls have grown up w/ the 1 man forever...Prince Charming fantasy... while guys got a new playmate every month...a bunch on the side too.

So, you think women really do that?
I am sure some do, I just never thought it was that common...but, if I think about the dull lives of the 1950's housewife, I can see where they would be searching for some sort of escape.

Maybe I have been missing something all these years....Romances were always a bit too mushy for me....but, I certainly read fiction and had "my" version of a prince charming ......the difference for me, was that I made MY man the focus of my desires....I didn't need to imagine having sex w/ prince charming because I was quite content having sex w/ my guy......if I read a steamy novel or a watched a sexy movie and got worked up, it felt natural for me to redirect those feelings toward my husband.
If I had a fantasy about being carried to a haystack, I would nudge him toward one.
Once I committed to him, I noticed other guys but I never went looking for them. IF I found myself attracted to one, I knew I needed to distance myself and find a way to recapture my feelings for my H.
My version of the fairy tale always had a lot to do with a committed relationship between 1 man and 1 woman....the happily ever after thing......and to me, that included a good sex life.
And to have a good sex life, I needed to feel attracted to my H. So, I worked at that.

But, this was MY reality (fairy tale) and it certainly seems to
a good fit for marriage, but not necessarily a healthy one if you end up married to man who accepts this but grew up w/ a different fairytale......a new playmate every month.....that you must hide from the woman you marry.

I think was Mr. Wonderful who mentioned that guys grow up thinking porn is something they are entitled to but need to hide from wife and from what I have learned this is very common.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!

.... but alas, back to the porn issue.... To me, it has absolutely NO place at all for any reason in MY marriage. It's destructive to intimacy, encourages deviant behaviors, leads to lies, betrayals and deception- puts distance between Husband & Wife, destroys trust, encourages extramarital affairs, prevents any true intimate closeness- both physically and emotionally from developing naturally and in a healthy manner between spouses.

When a man loves, values and respects a woman, his wife; SHE ALONE should be the one to whom he turns for SF... and as a Wife, who loves and values her Husband- she should be able to reciprocate. Just MVHO.... and I do love, want, need and desire my Husband- in every way- I find him very attractive, sexy and I truly enjoy sex with him- in fact, I crave it! And ALL my fantasies, desires, dreams and needs are centered around my HUSBAND-- as they should be for my sexual fulfillment, in every way. And yes- I have told him that, and I do tell him that often.

I would really like to see more of every one else's opinions, points-of-view and thoughts on this particular perspective. Am I the only one--male or female-- who views marriage, vows and SF between spouses this way?

I wholeheartedly agree....you said it well. You are not alone.





I wholeheartedly agree....you are not alone.

Of course, you are the only one to decide what is and what is not acceptable in your marriage. IMO, porn does none of the things that you mention. What causes those things is a defect of character. This defect of character will cause the problems you mention whether porn is involved or not.


You are far from alone on this. Many people feel the way you do. I would never criticize your POV on this, I just have a different one. I do feel that if a woman is to SUCCESSFULLY get her H to stop, she does need to understand why he does it. Every destructive behavior (and yes, it CAN be destructive) has a payoff. Ignoring a psychological payoff will almost always result in a failure to modify behavior.

I am doing my best to get to this point with my husband...it's hard to get him to open up- and many of his replies are the infamous "I don't know"... HOW can I talk to him, ask him, work with him to get him to look within himself and see the reasons and be honest with me AND HIMSELF about why he does it, why he has not been able to stop it and what can we do to overcome it together and halp rebuild our trust and marriage??????????

ICH---
thank you!

4Better:

Most likely your H is ashamed of his behavior. Also likely that he wants to "protect" you from the truth of whatever his payoff is for engaging in conduct that he KNOWS you despise and that could end his marriage.

I couldn't begin to guess what it is. It could be anything from a fetish to a control issue to just plain boredom. Whatever it is, clearly he is not comfortable sharing with you.

Can you handle the truth? My guess is that you can. Your H's shame may keep him thinking that you can't.

Perhaps an IC (preferably male) can help him get to the root. Sucky thing is, he has to want it. You can't do it for him, as you know.

Peace