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I am a 33 yr. old, male my wife is 30. We have 3 children. I have a 15 yr. old daughter from a previous marriage, and we have two boys together. 8 yrs. old and a 3 yr. old. We have been married for almost 6 years now. I have been self employed our entire marriage. When our 3 yr. old was born we made the decision as a couple that she would quit working and we would make the neccassary sacrifices to enable her to stay home with our kid. My business was doing very well at the time so, it was a sound decision. This was something absolutely against her grain, because she is so independent. Well once the business went south and things got out of control, rather then step up to the plate and fullfill her emotional and finacial needs I sunk into a deep depression. I lost all motivation, I lost the desire to go forward. I only did enough to barely get by. The finacial stress ripped her apart. She was screaming out for me to fix what was broken. I did'nt hear her. I ignored her pain, and her needs. I stopped taking care of myself. I gained a ton of weight, I stopped keeping up with my personal hygeine, I was a mess. In my mind I was the victim and I complained about her lack of sex drive when we were sinking in debt, I wasn't doing anything about it but walking around the house, fat and out of shape, unkept, farting, and laying on the bed saying make love you to me. She reached a point last Sunday where she gave me the enough is enough/I love you but I'm not in love with you speech. She is the type of women that takes alot, puts up with alot but once she makes her mind up that she's finish. She is finished. I made some immediate changes. I recommitted my life to Christ! I'm starting from scratch with my business, I'm motivated again, and I'm optimistic again. She is not interested in even considering reconcilliation. She talks in terms of me getting myself together for me and the kids. She is in complete withdrawal. My immediate strategy was to just get myself together because we still live under the same roof. She would see my positive changes as positives and give our marriage another try. She sees my changes as manipulation. Trying to get my way. She doesn't think it's real. She said I'm the boy that cried wolf! to many times. I have been working and giving her money everyday and trying to maintain a positive outlook. Get myself together, for me and the kids. She is by far the best thing that has ever happened to me, I took her for granted for so long, that she is in such pain that she can't begin to allow herself to trust me. How do I get her to open up and give me one last opportunity. She sees that as equivalent to going backwards. She associates that with pain. We have two beautiful little boys that love us both that deserves a happy family. I know I did all the damage with neglect, but I want to fix it. She won't let me get close enough to fix it. Whenever she talks it about the future when we live apart, and how fun we are going to make it for the kids by being such good friends. I know this didn't get bad oveernight so I know I'll have to be patient, and positive for a prolonged period of time. The negative comments, and the quotes like "I will never be married to anyone again ever." and "Get over me get on with your life, because I will never go backwards again ever" are taking a toll on me. It's hard for me to complain because I put her through hell for months and here I am after 6 days *****ing about how she won't let me inside her armor. How do I get inside? The more I try the farther she moves away? How do you reach a person who seems content to end a marriage? I can make her happier then she has ever been in her entire life if given the chance. How do I get that chance? I've read that she is at a stage called absolute withdrawal. How do I get her from there? How do I start to make love deposits when she not interested in accepting any deposits?

dcope: She is going off old scripts - based on how you acted in the past. You cannot expect her to immediately respond to changes made in 6 days. She needs time to "see" you again. Every day she is living with you gives you the opportunity to show her that you have changed. Please read Dr Harley's material. Get his books, read the posts here - they will help you. My H gave me the I don't love you speech a week before Christmas. He also is a person who makes up his mind and follows through. He said he was moving out! I was devastated. But I found this site and really looked hard at myself. I made immediate changes in areas H indicated were important. I began counseling with Steve Harley (expensive, but worth every penny). I have begun to see baby steps forward in our relationship. But it has taken 8 weeks and these are only baby steps - BUT I HAVE HOPE, I know my changes must be sustained - H must see these are not a flash in the pan. So you too need to give it time. I know you are in a panic that she will leave - hang tough. Get in shape, pull your business together (are you sure this is what her needs are?) identify what love busters you have and get rid of them. WORK!!! Do not expect any positive response from her. Feelings can change. Be the best husband and father (but you need to find out how to do that - don't guess) I am a novice in this process, but there are many people on this board who give great advice. Read - learn - change - you can do it. I will be looking for your posts. 8 weeks ago I thought my world had ended - now there is a possibility of togetherness - but even if things do not work out I am becoming a much better person - so the work is an end in itself.

ihope, I sincerley appreciate your comments. I have made some concrete changes. I have recommitted my life to Christ. I have lost weight already but mostly because the only thing I've eaten since Sunday night was about 3 bowls of soup. I have absolutely no appetite. The hard part is that we live in the same house. I sleep on the coach and I can't grab and hold her, or tell her how much I love her because she is so removed mentally and emotionally from the marriage. I'm making changes but some how even though I know the changes are in my best interest it still seems half empty. I drove her to work yesterday and on the way out the car she slipped and out of routine said "I love you". Then she caught her self and said "ohh". That tells me that there is something there. How salvagable? I don't know. I was on the couch asleep when she came home last night and she went out of her way to bring me a pillow. These are positives I think. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking. However I'm refocused in my business, actually I'm starting from scratch. I think I need to just focus on going forward and maintaining a committment towards the changes I need to improve and grow as a person. If I do that and she sees that my changes are forever, and that I love her, and am committed to saving or marriage, and family then maybe we have a chance. I have never been this long without touch, affection or sex. So I'm growing I guess. I miss the snuggling and cuddling. Boy did I ever take that for granted. Keep me in your prayers, and hopefully this thing gets either easier to deal with or better soon.

I can only answer as a woman that has been going through the ignoring stage myself. It is getting better through counseling and I am seeing changes in myself also. I can only tell you what works for me, but maybe it could be a blueprint for you to find out what works with your W.Have you tried apoligizing to her and telling her your feelings and what a wonderful woman she is?Have you commented on how beautiful she is to you?Have you thanked her for going through all of the things she has gone through during your period of failing?Have you tried setting up and evening with her? You get the babysitter and surprise her with an evening of romance. I love that one [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Have you tried little notes around the house reconfirming your feelings for her?Have you tried little comments on a daily basis - like "you look really nice in that outfit", "you have such a pretty smile"Have you watched her and when she asked what you were looking at - do you say "you and how beautiful you are and how lucky I am to have you in my life"?These are some of the things that I adore and I think that most women would. Be sure they are sincere statements though or you will get accused of lying.Take care and god bless and I am praying for you.Ally

This is a very sensitive stage. She is on the brink of being irretrievable.#1. NO LOVEBUSTERS. Read everything you can about that.#2. Only try meet her EN's that she is open to have you meet. More important is the no lovebusting.#3. You have no right to have any of your EN's met. Take them off the calendar. Your job is to earn your way back. Be grateful for what you had and have.Sexual fulfillment is likely going to be the most sticky confusing part of this. (I've learned a lot more about the do's and don'ts here from Promised Forever and Mike C2.) a. If she doesn't want to be touched, don't touch. Even if she has a very high need for SF. b. If she does want informal, nonsexual caresses, be careful. Give them very carefully.c. If you know she has a signifcant need for SF, all you can do is "marketing." * Lose all the fat. Meanwhile - * Dress great. Wear what she likes to see you in, but be sharp and stylish. Don't wait until you are back in shape to dress well. * Bathe/shower once or twice a day and pay meticulous attention to all matters of grooming - nose hairs and fingernails, as well as the cologne, hair and beard styling, etc. * Eat low-gas foods or take Beano and Gas-X. * No garlic or raw onions. * Give her your best flirting efforts and words of affirmation/affection/admiration.d. No actual sex until she initiates AND takes the lead.I hear a little bit of hope. But you have a steep uphill battle. Get ready. CHARGE!!!

dcope: be very careful!!! your comment about not being able to grab and hold her set me on alert ----- do not do this. This is a need you have to be reassured that everything will be alright - it is your need, not hers - so be careful. I know exactly how you are feeling and you can destroy any advances made by letting your "taker" out. Before the "announcement" I didnt really think very much about making love with my husband -after 15 years, it just was there. But now - I am hypersexed!!! I can't get enough -but he is not ready to give me this. Weird, huh? how we work. You need a plan. Try to determine what her top EN are and what love busters you have. Physical appearance may or may not be the most important to her - if it is not that important, you should be putting your energies toward what is. A plan (write it out - what you are trying to accomplish, how you will do it and how you will measure your progress ) post it if you need assistance. There are powerful reasons to stay together - but you have to show her that you mean it. you can do it. keep posting, we will help each other.

Over the course of the last few days we have had some very serious conversations. Here is the bottom line. How do you make her understand that the changes I made are forever. She has said that we are getting along so good right now that she would never want to jeopardize it by trying to get back together. I'm making changes so that she sees I'm in this thing for the long haul , and it's backfiring on me. She sees my change as positive, but in her mind it's better like this then it was when we were together. I can't win for losing!!!

Dont push her. Concentrate on the changes you are making without pressuring her to see them right away. The good news is that you are still living under the same roof. You have an ample opprtunity to learn and grow.

I am being as loving and considerate as a person can be. She says that I'm being overly nice and it's making her feel guilty. She says that she just wants to be as civil as possible living in the same house, but she is not ready to ever consider working things out. I'm struggling with this love from a distance program. What do I do? How do I do it? It's starting to get frustrating for her because she says my moods change when she does not return the love and flirtations. I do get frustrated because I'm trying so hard to get her to understand that I LOVE HER more then life it's self. How do you wake up every morning on the coach and look at the most beautiful woman I have ever met a not feel compelled to just hug her to death? I want to withdraw. I need to be able to handle this better then what I'm doing. We seem too find ourselves in these deep conversations every other day or so. They always end the same way. Her saying "If I get back together it will be for the kids, and you." "It would not be for me." I don't know what to do anymore. Would I be better off moving out? Would absence make the heart grow fonder? Will she ever come around and realize that we can be very happy together? I'm not a very patient person, but I am trying to grow. Please someone help me!!!!!!!!!!! I'm lost. Do I stop telling her how much I love her? Do I stop doing the little nice things that I didn't used to do? How do I act around her? Smiling, and acting like I'm happy when I'm not is very hard for me. That goes back to the honesty issue. Tommorrow will be the 2 week mark since we last made love. I have not gone 7 days without sex since my 16th birthday. I'm 33 now. This is foreign territory for me. I love this woman enough to try to make it work, if it can. My way of dealing with heart ache in the past is replacing them with one more beautiful. (That does work!) However the problem is it get's harder and harder each time. I am married to the most beautiful woman I've seen in years. literally. I screwed up and don't know how to fix it. Help PLEASE!!! I don't wan tto manipulate I just want her to reengage slowly so she can see I will never hurt her, disrespect her, or lie to her again. I will spend the rest of my life honoring and loving her the way she deserves.

2 weeks is nothing. It is nothing! I know it seems an eternity to you and you wish it was over, but you need to change. You can do this - but it will not be a miracle. do not move out. read Dr Harley's material and start working. It seems clear that physical things are a love buster to her right now. back off. Telling her you love her, deep converstions about change don't mean anything -ACTIONS!!! Are you working out? do you have a structured meal plan? what are your goals and action plan to get your business going? are you dressed neatly all the time? Don't be desperate, be upbeat, pleasant. Its not fun being around someone who is a downer. Have you asked her to fill out the EN survey, the LB survey? stop whinning and work....it will make a difference!!!!! Put that taker away (you may not get sex from her for a long time - can you handle that? or ????

Dcope, I am in a similar situation to yours as far as winning back the love of W. Just want you to know I have been in Plan A 6 months. Do not expect to have it happen over night but be grateful for every little battle won. In two weeks you have recovered further with your W than I did in 3 months. Do not get discouraged, the longer she sees the changes the more they become evident that they are changes.Hang in there and do not lose sense of your taker. You are delegated to the giver to help her out of withdrawal...

Thanks Ihope, I just needed to hear some positive feedback. I'm on track. I just get frustrated because I don't know how to respond to her rejection. She keeps intiating these deep conversations and I end up pitching her that I'm a new person that loves her and wants a chance. I don't want to talk because talking depresses me because I know I'm not going to get the responses I want. So being this happy go lucky person is so hard when your so sad at the mess I've made of my marriage. I can handle the lack of sex. It's not easy but hey worse thing are happening in the world. I need direction in how to be around her. Upbeat and happy? Positive and loving? I've been very quiet but supportive. I help he every chance I can. She is very thankful, and tries to limit all the nice things I do because she feels guilty. She says it makes her feel like she owes me something. I say I'm just treating you the way I should have been treating you all along. Last night she said that she wish I would have been like the way I am now 3 weeks ago. I felt like crap. I just smiled and walked away and beat myself up. How could I be so stupid? Do I avoid talking or is it good that she still wants to talk and discuss the past? Do I avoid talking about reconcilliation, and positve change, and how much I love her? Please give me some insight into this realm. This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done. Keep me in your prayers because I need them. I'm still losing weight from the stress diet. I force myself to eat a can of soup every evening because other then that I have no appetite. I dress as nice as I can. It's funny because people around her keep commenting on how nice I've been looking lately and she seems proud from a distance.

"So being this happy go lucky person is so hard when your so sad at the mess I've made of my marriage."- yes - this is hard!!! because you cant act like nothing is wrong - I struggle with this too! You need to internalize that YOU have caused her loss of love - therefore YOU can get it back. I firmly believe this (although each day is work) It is all YOU for now. (((caution: once she does start to soften up - do not go back to your old ways - it is very easy to get lulled ...)When she initiates the deep converstations - you could try apologizing again for your thoughtlessness and then ask her to help you become a better husband and father by completing the LB survey (you can print it off the main page of this site). I am working wtih Steve and getting my H to do this was an eyeopener for me. Although very painful to read that my "style" was offensive to him, I am working daily on improving these "defects". Everthing he pointed out, if fixed, will make me a better person. So, too, with your wife - finding out what you do that bothers her and fixing them will go a long way. I am seeing progress - but some of my defects are very deep and will take time to correct. But if he sees my efforts - sometimes I think that is enough....(well, sometimes) "It's funny because people around her keep commenting on how nice I've been looking lately and she seems proud from a distance."see - she is "seeing you" keep it up But you must get a food plan that will work long term - you will not be able to stay on the soup diet and do all the things you need to do. Are you exercising? Since it sounds like you were wallowing in despair before her announcement - are you now full of purpose each day? Most people are drawn toward those who appear to have it together - keep working, keep us posted good luck and remember: every day she is with you is a great day. Be a good father too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: She keeps intiating these deep conversations and I end up pitching her that I'm a new person that loves her and wants a chance. I don't want to talk because talking depresses me because I know I'm not going to get the responses I want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You need to tell her that men have a more limited capacity to stand up to an unpleasant conversation from a spouse than a woman does. That doesn't mean she can't have it with you, but you will need a 1/2 hour break whenever your heart rate exceeds 95.She has some things she wants to say. I don't think she's ever getting to finish. That's frustrating her, and making her believe there is little that can be done because you won't hear everything that's there. If you can do the 1/2 hour breaks, she can get it all out, and you won't blow off the conversation or stonewall on her, or blow up at her. Then you might find some nuggets that you can respond appropriately to, and some positive ways to move forward. Good luck.

dscope: I hear you loud and clear..I can only give you suggetions from a woman's point of view..My h was wonderful for 18 years..then something happened, we grew apart for tow year..He picked up an OW and things got progressively worse..My suggestion is to keep trying. I have put up so much from him, friends tell me to leave him. He is so abusive to me emotionally. I give him everything he wants..i get nothing in return..sex is one sided..Nothing for me..well, he is down to his lastbit of hope..he has gone to counseling..maybe you should think about that. Don't chase her..i have chased him and thought we were in the right direction for 8 months. he never let me in..I gave him my heart..he gave me a quarter.. Do something good for yourself..get a massage..how about taking her..double massages in the same room...it makes for some nice pillow talk...Good Luck

I started working out this morning. I'll jog every morning after prayer and before the shower. Things are very nice, between us. I'm dying inside but come across as happy and upbeat and positive. This couch is getting smaller and smaller, but I'm dealing. You know she keeps calling me honey, and babe and my heart skips a beat every time but I maintain my composure and just smile. I'm avoiding discussions about the future or the past, just trying to be a better person and a better father, and hopefully I'll get a opportunity to be a better husband. I really appreciate the feedback I've recieved from this board. it really helps because rather then obsessing about this situation, I have somewhere to vent and learn. Don't get me wrong I can't wait until I don't have to post for help, I will be happy to post to give help.

Do I only show affection when she intiates it? I'm very queit because I don't know what to say or how to act. I always conversate when she talks to me, but I rarely start a conversation because I don't know what to say. Again the happy everything is peachy routine is very difficult. I think I'm spending to much time worrying about her and what is going to happen. Is this possible? Can I continue to be supportive and loving as the occassion presents itself while disengaging in my reconcilling hopes? I'm really stuck on the how to continue. Talking doesn't get me anywhere and me changing is like a slow boat to China. I think I'm just a spoiled brat that can't handle not getting my way! Tommorrow will be 2 weeks. I can't imagine 2 months or 2 more weeks even. Would it be easier if I moved out? The looking at her and dealing with her treating me like a brother is agonizing. I'm on track. I'm not love busting anymore, I'm losing weight, I'm nice as pie and she sees it. The problem is I'm the type of person that thrives off of positive feedback. If I can see signs it's working I can maintain, but the hard part here is I'm getting no where. Help again please!

You are doing GREAT!!! Be real careful not to point out your changes to W. That is a lovebuster because it proves you just putting on an act, it isn't real, and as soon as you are comfortable you will go back the oldstyle love busting dcope who ignores her EN's!How long did it take your marriage to get into this fix? How quickly do you expect to dig out? You should expect it to take some time in proportion to the time it was being actively damaged.We can give somewhat more pointed help if we knew what your W's personality and EN's are. Have you checked out <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> yet? Have you read myohmy's current thread about winning back a withdrawn spouse? There are many current threads on this with TONS of great insight. Can you be more specific in your question? Or do you want more words of affirmation, strokes, praise, admiration ....Here they are: You are wonderful! She is so lucky to have a committed husband who is willing to turn his life around to please her. I wish my H would talk about things like you do. Keep up the good work, and keep the Our Relationships talks on hold for a few weeks at least.{{{{{{{{{{{{{dcope}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}I'll pray for you too.Love,Karenna

Kareena, I am a ESTP, she is a INFJ. What I need to know is how do I go about the day to day struggle? Do I just work on my self and let her see my changes and hope that she says hey maybe this is worth a try? Do I smother her with affection, compliments and nice acts, hoping she see's the light? I've read plan A and it sounds more like a blue print of how to fix a marriage after an affair. I don't mind doing what ever, but I need direction. Myohmy's thread was helpful because his initial post sounded identical to my situation. The differnce is his wife is willing to fight to fix their marriage, my wife want's to be best friends and doesn't want to even discuss making it work. She wants to move on to the next stage of her life. She sees giving it another chance as going backwards, and a total sell out of her values, and principles. She is scared to try because she say's it took her so long to get up the courage to tell me she didn't want to be married, that she might not have the guts to tell me again and may get stuck in another bad situation and be miserable. She says it's not fair that when she was sreaming out I didn't hear. Now I'm screaming out and she's not hearing. The tragedy is that we never worked on our marriage at the SAME time.

Wow. Four letter opposites. The only INFJ I know is a 48 yo Ph.D. psychologist who just finished his third divorce. He is also the biological father of my firstborn.So first of all, respect her introversion. No slobbering all over like a pathetic over-eager puppy dog.Second, realize that her idealistic NF nature has given up to her J nature right now, and it feels permanent to her. Decisions are set in stone. Until you win back her feeling idealism.Has she read any of the personality type books? NF's eat this stuff up like cheesecake. Most personality workshops have 70-90% NF participants. But I only know of one NFJ on the forum. I think her username is Harmonious Melody. Certainly not a common type around here.Maybe they think they already know all this. Or maybe they are just so naturally good at this they don't need to invest in the education. I don't know. Mostly they have excellent marriage skills. My friend is definitely the exception. All his pathetic wives were pretty much damsels in distress who dumped him because he really wanted a partner and an equal, not a fragile princess.Meanwhile, don't lovebust. Don't leave. Cool down your need for action and impatience. You are probably a bit(!) impulsive. Continue your Plan A and give her time and security in knowing that you honestly do understand her and have really changed at heart. Work on her idealist side and feed her important J sorts of EN's.

OK, Here's today's challenge. When she came home from work last night we sat in her bed and I rubbed her down for almost 2 hours. I enjoyed it so much because giving her pleasure gives me pleasure right now. The hard part is getting out of her arms and going out to my couch. I did and she said thank you. I went to church this morning and came home, and helped her clean. I held her a couple of times and just rubbed and carressed her. She never stops me I think she really enjoys it. I told her I know she likes it when I rub and hold her but she can request it sometimes. She does not always have to wait for me to intiate it. I told her that she does not owe me anything and that she should not feel guilty. I do it because she deserves it. What I'm noticing about her is I can see her struggling with herself. She enjoys the contact, but she is trying to force herself not to let it get to intimate. She loves it but does not want to love it because it's going against her SET mind. I just want to scream out "Just enjoy it and let yourself go!!!" Tonight she is planning a "girls night out" with her girlfriends. I always watch the kids while she's working but I feel a little slighted that she is taking for granted I'll watch the kids while she bonds with her friends. I understand that she deserves to go out, and have a life other then me and the kids that's why I won't make it a issue, but it bothers me because I want her to just stay home and work on the relationship she is not ready to work on yet. Kareena, as a INFJ what do I have to do to get through to her? Does anyone else have any suggestions of the little things I can do to get through to her that I love her with actions and not words? Thank you in advance for your suggestions. This again is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my entire life. Love someone and have to plan A because I was so much of a idiot while she was loving me!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: When she came home from work last night we sat in her bed and I rubbed her down for almost 2 hours. I enjoyed it so much because giving her pleasure gives me pleasure right now. The hard part is getting out of her arms and going out to my couch. I did and she said thank you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is great that she let's you show her affection this way and enjoys it. That is more than many couples at your stage have. Be very careful to keep this non-sexual so she will continue to let it happen between you.The book "Just your Type", available throught the <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> site Karenna mentioned, gives specific advice for each of the 136 possible relationship matches by personality type. Here is what it says on how a ESTP should try to reach a INFJ:-- Take an interest in your partner's passions. Try to attend events or read books they recommend.-- Be considerate and try to anticipate how your partner may perceive your actions-- When your partner feels stressed and overloaded, lighten their load by taking over some household chores, watching the children, or giving them downtime.-- Respect your partner's value system. Don't put your mate down or tease them about their values or opinions.-- Encourage intimacy by sharing your emotions (may want to wait on this onem, or at lesast pick your moments carefully, with a withdrawn partner--Mike)-- Express your appreciation in words and actions. -- Be considerat of your partner's space. Respect their need for order and neatness.-- Give your partner time to get used to changes in plans.Also, in the commentary, it says:INFJs are attractred to ESTPs because they're so playful, charming and adaptable. Anyway, I highly recommend you get the book and give the whole section a good read...it gave me a lot of insight.good luck...it sounds like you are making progress. Her personality type will take time to adpat to changes, so try not to force relationship conversations...they will just force her to state her continued ambivalence, and that tends to solidify and reinforce those feelings, even when they are in the process of changing.Mike

I really feel like just giving up! I think I can Plan A for the next 10 years and she won't change. She has her mind made up! She is set on not going backwards. It all started tonight with me walking up behind her and putting my arms around her and telling her that the fact that she is going out with her friends makes me wish that us staying at home and cuddling on the couch and watching a good movie and talking was still a option. Then I kissed her on the forehead. She said "so the soup is good huh?" I said that comment made you thing of my soup? She said no It really made me think why didn't you think like that when I was screaming out to you. I said you know babe it's very important that when we communicate you say what you really feel, rather then saying something that you don't mean. She said she would but she didn't want to say what she really meant because she didn't want to hurt my feeling. I said you know I don't want to get into a deep conversation but let me say this: I love you very very much. I respect you and your space. I understand that I did alot of damage and was very inconsiderate in the past, but babe I'm learning everyday. As long as I'm living here with you, I want you to understand that I will love you, support you, listen to you and be here for you in every way you allow me to. I'm not trying to get my way or manipulate. All, I'm trying to do is get you to understand that just as I destroyed our marriage over time, I want you to allow yourself to allow me to prove to you over time that my changes are not temporary, and that I'll never hurt, ignore your needs, or ever be disrespectful or be inconsiderate to you again as long as I live. Don't say you will take me back, just don't say you won't never take me back. Give yourself time to heal. Give yourself time to understand and notice the life changes I've made are real. Understand that you are very lucky that you have a husband that loves you enough to make drastic life changes in order to make you happy. I said I noticed over the last week you are forcing yourself not to let me in. You want to look back, but you won't allow yourself to because it like your cheating yourself if you soften up a little. She said The problem is she knows me well, and that she knew that once she gave all the way up on our marriage that I would make the changes I'm making. She just wants me to make them for the kids because they need me. She has to force herself to go forward because it's to emotionally draining to go backwards. She says I'm the type of person that never listens or learns until it's to late. Like now our marriage is to late. I can't allow myself to go backwards, I have to go forward because I was to unhappy for to long. I said so it doesn't matter to you if the changes are forever. She said no! I have to go forward, and if your changed forever your going to make someone a hell of a husband! It just won't be me. I've come to the realization that her mind is made up. No matter what I do or say is a waste of time. I can plan A forever and she won't turn back because she feels like she would be betraying herself. I can make all the changes in the world forever and it's like spitting in the wind. I think I have to go on with my life. Move out and get on with continuing my life changes and maintaining a close relationship with God and my children. I think Plan A can work with he right person, but I really don't think it can work on my wife. I feel hopeless, and stupid for trying to convince myself that Plan A can turn her around. It's like I would just waste my time trying to bring her back and that would be time I could spend trying to get over her. If Plan A IS FUTILE do you do it anyway? I'm lost. This is where I end up everytime she shoots me down. I can be loving and caring and patient, but when she talks and tells me I'm wasting my time trying to win her back I feel hopeless. Are there situations where Plan A won't work? Is there a Plan B or C ? I think it's to late. So do I just move out and get on with my life knowing I just lost the most precious woman on the planet? Living here looking at her jump in and out of the shower and walking around me in her Victoria Secret's is driving me crazy. I can't be positive when she is so resoundingly negative. I feel like a fool. I feel like just giving up! Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I can't be positive when she is so resoundingly negative. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dude, I just posted this to you this afternoon:"""Her personality type will take time to adpat to changes, so try not to force relationship conversations...they will just force her to state her continued ambivalence, and that tends to solidify and reinforce those feelings, even when they are in the process of changing.""""And you force a relationship discussion. Virtually everyone on this board is or was dealing with a withdrawn spouse. You don't force relationship discussions on withdrawn spouses....you won't like what you hear. You have to change their mind with time and action, not confrontation and persuasion.Write your wife a note that says you don't want to talk about the relationship anymore, but you just want her to promise to give you time, and that you will be working hard at changing. No reponse needed from her. Just ask for time.

Mike I swear I was not trying to force a relationship conversation on her. I was trying to be supportive, and loving by making a positive statement. It turned into something I was trying to avoid. Your dead right that I don't like what I hear when we talk so I try to avoid it but either she initiates a relationship talk or it comes out of the blue like this one started. I was trying to explain that I was not going to pressure her and I was going to be loving and supportive. What do I do from here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dcope: Mike I swear I was not trying to force a relationship conversation on her.Look, I didn't mean to be tough on you. I read back a little, I see how fresh this all this, just a week or two, right? She is going to see any affection, any sign of love from you, as a red flag where she has to jump in and reiterate that her heart is closed. And every time she does that the words echo around for a week and sound like bible. So you want to avoid going over her comfort line. I apologize for not knowing your whole story. Has she said anything about moving out, or starting divorce proceedings? How are your finances? Will she have to be concerned there? Sometimes I think being a little financially strapped is the best way to stay married [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Anyway, your first goal should be to stay under the same roof. You already have a lot of good Plan A advice up above, and give the personalitytype.com stuff I posted a good read. Time is your ally, but only if you are patient If she says that she doesn't want to work on the marriage, but wants you to get counseling ---there's a great opportunity! Get on the phone ASAP with Steve Harley...they are AWESOME at getting recalcitrant spouses involved in the process. After you talk to him once or twice, he'll request that she speak to him for background on you...to help your individual counseling...capiche? Then she gets drawn into the program, it is very effective. If she wants you to work on yourself, see if you can get her to fill out the LB and EN questionaires under the guise of seeing where you failed...again, for bettering you, not working on the marriage, if that is what gets it done. (Obviously, don't espouse this, you don't want her to think you've given up. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

)This thread has given you a lot of the tools, the Plan A, the personalitytype.com stuff, counseling with Harley....what you do with it is up to you.Time and patience...this is all very early, she just blew up, and you will have to live in the doghouse for awhile and get your Plan A going before you'll see any cracks in the wall. Assume that it will be 90 days before anything positive happens. That way you can control your expectations. AVOID ALL LOVEBUSTERS! That is the most important thing right now.what do you think she liked about you? From the personalitytype.com book, it looked like you were the fun-loving, exciting, social adventurous part of the couple, right? Same with me. So what happens when we most need to reinforce those strengths? We become the weak, weepy, clingy, mopey nightmare mates [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Don't fall into that! I feel good about you, I think you will be a success story. But it will be a long slow battle....like fighting a big fishh...try to hard and she's off the line!Also....just from sad experience here on the board...whenever I hear of a spouse just turning on a dime in their feelings, I feel compelled to ask whether there could be any outside influences....any other men that could have wandered into her life? Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 18, 2001).]

Mike, Thank you for taking so much time to respond. Our finances are getting better. I am contractor who's biggest client is the U.S. Government. So I get the bulk of my $$ once per month. She has said she doesn't want to be married. She says that she wants us to be best friends and be the best parents in the world collectively to give our kids a fairy tale type no pain divorce experience. This thing went south 2 weeks ago tonight. At first I made drastic changes and beat myself up and tried to talk her down. Obviously every attempt to talk pushed her farther away and deeper in her convictions that she does not want to be married. I have grown over the last 2 weeks but the aftermath of our talks takes a tremendous toll on my mental, and emotional mindset. I get a hopeless feeling that is overwhelming. This whole back to the drawing board feeling is crushing. However, this is the bed I made so I have to handle it. I will ask her to do the Love Busting, and EM Questionaires. I will call Steve Harley and start that process. I will try my best to be positive during this process. 90 days is the time frame I'll work within. I need to buy His Needs/Her Needs also. I hope my story is a success. I can't imagine living without her and my family. I don't think it is anybody else. I'm sure most guys in my boat don't think that is the case but it would be very uncharacteristic of her. She is very loyal. She has tried for months and months to get me to see the light but I was blind. Now she is just emotionally drained to the point where she has no energy to try to reconcil. I will try again. Plan A, it's just so hard.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: Plan A, it's just so hard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You sort of break through a wall after awhile and the new behavior becomes natural. Why wouldn't be nice instead of lovebusting feel good? Why wouldn't doing things that make your W happy feel good? It does change, after awhile Plan A becomes very self-rewarding. She hasn't talked specifically about moving out or getting an apartment or anything? Time is on your side, if you use it well. Talk to Harley, I was in a very similar position to you, and he recovered my marriage. Don't waste the time I did it misdirected Plan As, tho.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: She says that she wants us to be best friends and be the best parents in the world collectively to give our kids a fairy tale type no pain divorce experience.I have grown over the last 2 weeks but the aftermath of our talks takes a tremendous toll on my mental, and emotional mindset.I will try my best to be positive during this process.Now she is just emotionally drained to the point where she has no energy to try to reconcil. I will try again. Plan A, it's just so hard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is long and rambling. As Pascal said, I don't have time to make it shorter.Your presence is draining the love bank, regardless of anything else that is happening. You are also not getting ahead with anything you are doing, conversely, you are soothing her with a gentle wind-down to the marriage at a moment when change should feel most wrenching for her. With the benefit of hindsight, here is how I would approach it. First, you have to get out of the house. She is "having her cake and eating it too" in that she is willing to let you meet some of her needs, but has frozen you out of the marriage. Second, you tell your children something like this: "I don't want to leave you, but your mother is making me move out--or rather, she is making it impossible for me to stay. We promised we would always be with each other when we got marriaed, but she doesn't want to anymore, and I have tried to change her mind but I can't. I hope things will change and I can come home, but if they don't I will still be seeing a lot of you, and I want you to know that I love you more than anything."Once you move out, you want to have your new place in complete and inviting cleanliness and order as soon as possible (this is for your own good--we don't need you depressed, and for that matter, you probably should see a psychiatrist for an antidepressant). And you need to avoid alowing her to see it (actually, it would be more like an inspection if she got in there). This is evidently some kind of strong psychological need. My thinking is that by frustrating it you may gain some leverage over time. It's just a working hypothesis, though.You should be operating under a plan, and not deviating from it. The main temptation to avoid is that of finding a new girlfriend right away. Judging by what I'm reading about her, she will not be putting herself back in the pool for a man. That means that if you get back in the dating pool, you will confirm her belief that you don't love her, and you will of course distract yourself, probably find a woman you like a lot, and be left with a lot of unanswered questions and dilemmas. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to project independence, strength, and courage. You must also communicate your anger, in solely appropriate ways. Verbally only, with no abuse, and at opportune moments like when she wants more contact or closeness or wants you to meet one of her needs or wants to meet one of yours. You can say that it can't happen, and tell her why. In that way, you will do two things. You will have an appropriate outlet for your anger, and you will perhaps build up a lot of unmet needs in her. She will discover that she does need a man, specifically you, after all. It would help if her family's support for her were undermined (OK, I'm being strong here--what I mean to say is that if she is telling her family a lot of one-sided things, they are going to flock to her aid. If you are in the picture to provide a balanced viewpoint, instead of running for cover, they may decide that the best thing to do is to try to help both of you work things out). So if you have good relations with your in-laws, you may want to keep them up or even try to strengthen them. Only without her around. You need to realize that you are now getting nothing from this marriage. No hope. False friendliness (yes, my XW was all smiles and cutesy new nicknames for me too in the weeks after she made her mind up). No sex. No future. No real love. Just pain.I've concluded it's not the time for Plan A, at least not for a Plan A in any sort of proximity. I noticed that when I withdrew all forms of "niceness" it created a hunger in her that she was desperate to satisfy. Of course, once "fed", she could resume her course toward separation and divorce. And here is another weird one that you may be able to make something out of: at one point, I responded to a lovebuster of hers by refusing to drop her off back at her office to work late (the LB caused cancellation of dinner out together), and driving her around haranguing her for hours about what I saw as having destroyed our marriage. I also disabled both cars surreptitiously once we got home, and continued with the harangue. Finally I showed her how it was done, and how to undo it. Instead of leaving then, she and I laughed and watched sitcom reruns and fell asleep in each other's arms for the first time in a long time. Then the next day, she said I had scared her and we would not be staying together. The conclusion I now draw in retrospect is that you *must* communicate your true emotions, including anger, which they expect. What you must not do is make them feel at risk from you. I think you could do this best in letter form once you move out. Perhaps phone calls in the evenings (but don't beg her to come back, tell her how bad she's been). I would resist in-person meetings unless attended with a third-party counselor. She could probably be sustained for months on a single hug (you don't want to be doing this until you're on the road to recovery--stay aloof)--meanwhile, that hug would haunt you.Rather, it is time to separate and withdraw and become very mysterious about any sort of detail on your personal life, except that you aren't seeing anyone and don't expect to do so. Get better haircuts, buy better clothes, work out, get tan, buy a sporty car, and keep pushing away--but not with an OW in the picture.And ... your discussion with the children is the last of that kind you ever have with them. You don't want to be accused of trying to alienate them from their mother. Tell the truth once, then shut up. You want to be as responsible and reliable as possible. Keep to your visitation schedule, pay child support on time.This stuff is hard. Make it easier on yourself and harder on her (by undermining her rationalizations [do nothing she can point to as clearly "wrong"] and support system, and by not fulfilling any of her needs while in exile), and she just might want to come back. At some point you may see a glimmer of hope, and you will no longer have anger that needs communicating through not meeting any needs. If you see an actual, real possibility that she might be reeled in, you want to switch to a conditioning mode:There are two kinds of conditioning, Pavlovian and Skinnerian. Pavlovian provides both rewards and punishments. It works only for lower animals. Human beings are typically unmoved by any punishment that hasn't reached an intolerable level (read: torture). Skinnerian involves reward only. Nothing is done by the researcher except to note behavior and immediately provide reward to reinforce correct behavior only. Whenever STBXW does anything that seems positive to you, whether by accident or force of habit, or whatever--you need to provide an immediate reward. You will need to determine what the reward will be. Obviously, something she wants; preferably something she can't get elsewhere. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 19, 2001).]

NOOOOooo! Don't move out! You have only turned around for two weeks! NOT time to move out and give her Plan A remote, or even Plan B.Don't leave unless your Harley counselor tells you to leave her!!! Can you get an emergency appointment?With all due respect to Sisyphus, this is extremely high risk.INFJ's are very theoretical and high-minded. Emotions are their operating system, but the part they display is rational thought. Let her do the thinking while you demonstrate your changes. You are an experiencer. Just DO IT! and do it NOW for heaven's sake. Right?Don't stop being fun and active with the family, but it would help to try to participate in Non-relationship discussions on her favorite subjects, even if they are too esoteric for you. What is her occupation? Interests?Get busy reading. Leave the books available for her to read too. She will love them and probably take them to heart even more than you. Let her read a personality type book while you read HNHN. Then swap.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: First, you have to get out of the house.Disagree 100 percent plus a bag of chips. This runs totally counter to everything I have ever read about marriage counseling and definitely everything Harley has written.She is "having her cake and eating it too" in that she is willing to let you meet some of her needs, but has frozen you out of the marriage.This phrase and this strategy from Harley only applies when a wayawrd spouse will not, after an extended Plan A, break off an ongoing affair. It does NOT apply to a withdrawn spouse two weeks into Plan A. Second, you tell your children something like this: "I don't want to leave you, but your mother is making me move out--or rather, she is making it impossible for me to stay.Major lovebust...jeez, can you just delete this post before he reads it, and gets to the kidnapping and vandalism advice?? [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 19, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I really feel like just giving up! I think I can Plan A for the next 10 years and she won't change.. . . . . . . . I can plan A forever and she won't turn back because she feels like she would be betraying herself. I can make all the changes in the world forever and it's like spitting in the wind. . . . . . . I think I have to go on with my life. Move out and get on with continuing my life changes and maintaining a close relationship with God and my children. I think Plan A can work with he right person, but I really don't think it can work on my wife. I feel hopeless, and stupid for trying to convince myself that Plan A can turn her around. It's like I would just waste my time trying to bring her back and that would be time I could spend trying to get over her. If Plan A IS FUTILE do you do it anyway? I'm lost. This is where I end up everytime she shoots me down. I can be loving and caring and patient, but when she talks and tells me I'm wasting my time trying to win her back I feel hopeless. Are there situations where Plan A won't work? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>dcope, let me say something here. I am a wife whose husband was very much like you, depressed, miserable, feeling sorry for himself and not doing anything about his situation and neglecting his wife. What I hear in your cries above is 'DON'T LEAVE ME!!' You THINK you're actions should highlight how much YOU'VE changed, but all they highlight is how much you want HER to change, change her mind and stay with you. Plan A is not about getting HER to change, it's about getting YOU to change, and that will only be real to her if it happens whether she stays or goes. You put so much emphasis on changing yourself so that she will stay. But let me tell you, that leaves her feeling very insecure that once you are comfortable in the relationship again, it will gravitate back to what it was. In my case I did stay, because he wanted me to and he said he was ready to be the man I wanted him to be, and as soon as he was comfortable that I wasn't going anywhere, things began to gravitate back to the way they were, and now I'm back at square one again. The smartest thing that you said above was "I think I have to go on with life. Move out and get on with continuing my life changes and maintaining a close relationship with God and my children." Well, I don't know that I agree with the move out thing. You have children involved and I don't so my situation is easier to walk away from than yours. But you really need to let her go and concentrate on you. I offer the following, which I have posted before on this board somewhere. It makes an awful lot of sense to me, maybe it will speak to you too. Good luck. I honestly hope everything works out for you but I truly believe you need to change your mindset in order for it to do so.(I do not know where the following originates from, but it makes a lot of sense.)The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretense to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment. Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe. If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage. Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship-focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface. Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects. Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will. To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc. Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!" This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time. If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead." Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances-her grasping hands-any more. "But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure." It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious-that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance. If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse: The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes.After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home! The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better-somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan-a program-a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ava: (I do not know where the following originates from, but it makes a lot of sense.)I'm fairly certian that is Dobson, and I agree that it makes a lot of sense. I think that people misread Harley to think that Plan A means groveling or somehow acting without dignity. If that is anyone's Plan A they are doing it wrong.

I'm not going to flame anybody. But I am going to stick up for the points I made. Moving out removes any sign of ambivalence. There are the old sayings "familiarity breeds contempt" and "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Right now, ever mistake gets you 10 demerits and every love bank deposit gets you 1 merit. With that kind of ratio, it's difficult and exhausting to try to get ahead. Moving out gives you more control over the situation, and control is what you need. If you want to look over on amazon.com, I believe you will find a book on controlled separation. It may help.Telling the children the truth may be a major lovebuster. But it is the truth, and we all deserve the truth, and we all should be free to tell the truth. If your wife wants to do what she's doing, you must establish that consequences flow from her actions. You will not make it any easier or harder than it has to be, you will simply let it be.As long as you are still there, the pressures will build up inside you to do something like that goofy thing I did with the long drive and the cars and all. If you're outta there, it can't happen. Just for the record, what prompted that drive was that I tried to set a boundary, and XW walked all over it at what she felt was the opportune time. I told her we could go to dinner if we did not bring up the question of who slept in what bed. She agreed. But once inside the restaurant, the very first thing she did once sodas had arrived was bring it up. So I paid for the sodas and left. She wanted what happened (or something not terribly unlike it). I'm still not sure why, but I know there was an intentional provocation. Also, if you are there, you are not recognizing and honoring her will. Moving out is, in a sense, malicious compliance. It is the thing she wants, and the thing that you are sure is wrong for her, but she will have to learn that on her own--you can't teach her that without an object lesson. Also, if she has any misgivings about your inner strength, your insistence on staying does little to dispel it. I say move out, and stay close but aloof. You can better decide what you want to do, and what you want to respond to, with the clarity that is born of distance and detachment.I don't have all the answers. I wish I did. My answers are different than what others have written, and unorthodox. But I did what I did, and I saw what I saw. And I have thought long and hard on what I saw and did. And I have drawn the conclusions I have already put down.Sometimes, there is a lack of recognition that one is in a war. The saying "all's fair in love and war" places those concepts close together for a reason. I'm not talking about a war as in bombs and guns and violence. I'm talking about war in the sense that you and your STBXW are no longer going in congruent directions, and talking has not changed either of you (except for your belated change). Diplomacy must now be carried on by other means if you are to be satisfied with the outcome. Blockade (as difficult and costly as it is) is an act of war. And I'm talking about a blockade preventing interaction from flowing between the two of you, a blockade you will keep up until certain supplies she has a large stockpile of begin at last to run short. If I am correct, these are critical supplies she doesn't realize anything about. When they run short, you will be in a better position to negotiate. I would describe the supplies as love and acceptance and self-worth and validation and comfort and all of the other emotional needs you have been meeting. The ones you have not been meeting have assumed disproportionate importance to her. You might actually try to meet some of them to the extent you can do so from a distance. But withhold the others.You're through the looking glass, and down is up and up is down and what looks like good behavior is actually bad for the marriage, etc. So you're disoriented. By realizing what is missing and what is there, you can see how to rejigger what you provide into a photographic negative of what you were in her life before. The effect will be so unsettling that she will be compelled to reassess what she was seeing in the first place, and hopefully, she will try to triangulate her way back to a somewhat different "whole" picture. Don't discount what others say. I just think the kind of Plan A they are proposing is a quicker route to exhaustion and the kind of errors I made. If what you're trying now doesn't work (and if it was going to work, I think you would have quickly seen signs of reward from her), do something different. To do otherwise is the very definition of insanity.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 19, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: Sometimes, there is a lack of recognition that one is in a war.Uh...Sisyphus, a quick read over your posts shows a pretty steady diet of wild lovebusting behavior and advice. Aside from merely emulating you, are you advising people here that this sort of behavior has saved your marriage?It seems to me that you are pushing an LB rock up a hill that is fated to turn and crush your marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Uh...Sisyphus, a quick read over your posts shows a pretty steady diet of wild lovebusting behavior and advice. Aside from merely emulating you, are you advising people here that this sort of behavior has saved your marriage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm already done, and what I advise is the opposite of the things I'm pretty sure did us in. If you read carefully, you'll see I describe things that didn't work, and some things that are often counterintuitive, or counter to what a lot of MB orthodoxy is, that I think might work. A spouse ending a marriage in a non-affair situation is something that I don't believe Harley's theories are entirely prepared to meet.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: A spouse ending a marriage in a non-affair situation is something that I don't believe Harley's theories are entirely prepared to meet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, seeing as I counseled with Steve Harley because I had a spouse that wanted to end our marriage in a non-affair situation, I can tell you that my experience was that Harley's methods were extremely effective. Concept number one was to avoid lovebusters and stay in the house to show an effective Plan A and changed behavior. Your counseling moving out, telling the kids and blaming the wife, acting "aloof" are a recipe to divorce.

I'm numb right now. I know that things are not getting any better. I know that I am not happy. I'm acting aloof not on purpose but because I don't know what else to do. I've tried talking and I tried begging, and I have been through the entire gambit of emotions. The bottom line is she does not want to be married to me. However she wants to stay in the same house and "play house". I can't continue to focus on her. I have to focus on me, and staying committed to the changes I need to make in order to be a better person. I would love to stay married and one day look back at this time in my life and say WOW, that was one messed up time! I only feel comfortable engaging in loving and supportive behavior if she initiates the contact. I have been forcing my loving ways on her. She accepts it but does not ask for it. In other word when she comes home from work if I go in her room sit on her bed and massage her she won't say no, but if I didn't come in there she would just close the door and go to sleep. Maybe I have plan A screwed up to but I've been basically graveling. Forsaking myself in order to get her to see that I love her. I love you guys for trying to help but to be honest I'm more confused then ever. I'm lost. All I can do is stay committed to change and if she wants to work on it I would in a heartbeat, but if the status quo is kept I can just about promise you that we are headed for trouble. Do I let her go like the one pollster suggests ? Do I move out? I have a severe headache, and I never get headaches.

You get the expert counseling advice. ASAPYou haven't even read HNHN yet?

time and patience playing house can turn into real house time and patienceyour post show the panic in your life (I know it too well) slow down, work on yourself, call Steve - be there - be your best.two weeks is a very short time.DO NOT MOVE OUT

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: She is not interested in even considering reconcilliation. She talks in terms of me getting myself together for me and the kids. She is in complete withdrawal. My immediate strategy was to just get myself together because we still live under the same roof. She would see my positive changes as positives and give our marriage another try. She sees my changes as manipulation. Trying to get my way. She doesn't think it's real. She said I'm the boy that cried wolf! to many times. How do I get her to open up and give me one last opportunity. She sees that as equivalent to going backwards. She associates that with pain. She won't let me get close enough to fix it. Whenever she talks it about the future when we live apart, and how fun we are going to make it for the kids by being such good friends.How do I get inside? The more I try the farther she moves away? How do you reach a person who seems content to end a marriage? I can make her happier then she has ever been in her entire life if given the chance. How do I get that chance? I've read that she is at a stage called absolute withdrawal. How do I get her from there? How do I start to make love deposits when she not interested in accepting any deposits?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Parts of your original post seem pretty grim.All my responses have been predicated on my (perhaps erroneous) assumption that she has told you at some point "Get Out!"If that has happened, then I think your bias should be toward honoring that request. If that has not happpened, however, your goal is to play for time, because that 10 to 1 ratio I was talking of may not have kicked in (I think it does once "Get Out!" is uttered). On rereading your posts in their totality, I think you may be having quite powerful reactions to what is on her part a more malleable situation than it appears. It would seem you are getting a certain amount of opportunity to deposit into her love bank, and you are in a situation where she thinks it might be right to stay married for the children's sake. Given the short period of time that this situation has been out there, I think you may have a better chance than I had.Your challenge is to avoid lovebusting. It is also to take a deep breath, and focus your finite energies in the directions that will produce the greatest return. The financial needs that are not being met are key. You must also keep being a loving father to the girls, and remain available to give your wife what little she will accept from you. The challenge is to avoid being servile about it. It's key that she views you as a man, who is entitled to respect. So remember, don't force any issues, don't do (or fail to do) anything such that she would be moved to say "GET OUT", but do focus on those things that answer her concerns. The other thing to realize is that these switches don't usually flip in a vacuum. There must be someone, somewhere, that she is confiding in who has pushed her thinking on this subject. That someone may or not be involved in an EA with her. Of course you hope not. But if there isn't an EA, that person must be very trusted, so you know who they are already and their opinions will be well known to you. If that person is secret ... then you likely have an EA out there.Good luck.

Thank you guys for putting up with me. I feel alot better this morning. I would love to call Steve but I don't have $125.00 right now. All the money I get from working is going towards the mess I put us in finacially. I will go buy HNHN today and start reading it. In the interim I have decided to just stay here and be as positve and as spiritual as possible. I'm letting go and letting GOD. I won't do anything to force the issue or do anything to hinder the issue. The part that I haven't told you guys is I've hit rock bottom before. In a previous marriage. I found God and was blessed with a new wife, beautiful healthy children and a very successful business. Then I walked away from God and decided I could do it all by myself, and the rest is history. I think this is God's way of getting my attention, and teaching me once and for all that I can do nothing without him in my life. No matter if she leaves or stays, or asks me to leave the changes I'm making are for me and forever. The bottom line is I can't fix it I have to let God and time fix it. Please keep me in your prayers while I pray for everyone on this board that's going through something. No she has not asked me to leave at this point. If she does I will leave out of respect for her wishes. I do think I'm spending way to much energy, worrying and obsessing on things I can not control. I think my energy can be better spent working to generate income, and working to better myself and at the same time make sure I'm not love busting. In other words stop analyzing every piece of body language and sound she utters and trying to interprete her thoughts and feelings. If she wanted me to know she would tell me. More importantly stop internalizing everything and beating myself up with guilt, this I think is the most draining aspect of the entire situation.Have a blessed day![This message has been edited by dcope (edited February 20, 2001).]

A few quick thoughts:1. If Financial Support is a problem, think what you can do to give her hope for a better future. Take a second job, part time at night, something to give her hope. Mothers with children are very sensitive to security in this area.2. Time and patience. You are VERY fortunate that she is notplanning on sepaarating, and that she let's you show some affection. I wopuld continue to do this, in order to stay connected. 3. You may want to try some anti-deps in order to present a more calm and stable face to her. Talk to your doctor.4. Do NOT move out, even if she asks you too. One of you has to show faith in the marriage. And I can't see moving out doing anything but dramatically worsening the financial scene. Give her space, but you are not going to break up this family.Groveling isn't bad for awhile, it shows your love and commitment [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Try not to do it 24/7 it gets annoying. The anti-deps mauy help you there.This situation is all set up for success. I think that if you avoid forcing the issue. her heart will open back up. But you need to play it right, Plan A, no lovebusters, tackle the needs you can address, like financial support.Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 20, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: 4. Do NOT move out, even if she asks you too. One of you has to show faith in the marriage. And I can't see moving out doing anything but dramatically worsening the financial scene. Give her space, but you are not going to break up this family.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not disagreeing in this instance with what is happening right now. I'm not flaming either. What I will add is that there may come a moment when you must honor the request to move out, regardless of finances or convenience. It is a challenge to recognize that moment. I think the moment comes when your staying is being motivated by your taker rather than the notion that you can do any good for the marriage by staying. At that point, it's not faith in the marriage, it's the hostile action of frustrating a wife's (probably valid) feeling that there is an enemy in her home. Regardless of its validity or invalidity, it must be dealt with, and since you can't work on them you work on you ... and above all you must be nonthreatening and not lovebusting. If your spouse has concluded that your mere presence is threatening or lovebusting, then you must engineer your own absence.One way to measure the arrival of that moment ... how would you feel if she moved out? If there would be any sense of satisfaction or triumph in having her do that (even if it would be mixed up with all sorts of other emotions), then your taker is engaged in the decision, and you need to reevaluate, and probably move out on your own. If she actually does say "you leave or I leave", then you must leave. That's it.To reiterate, the moment when you are least inclined to move out is the moment when you must re-evaluate, and probably you'll find that it is time to move out. Not to end the marriage. But to provide the "space" that you both need, and push your taker down.

Could I add you need to nurture your "self" also? May I recommend:"A Man's Journey to Simple Abundance by Sarah Ban Breathnach, Michael Segell." This book is newly released.Wonderful sharing of men's life stories and learning experiences. Take the best care of yourself that you can. Physically, mentally and emotionally. We have no control over anyone but ourselves. Take it day to day, that way all of what you are learning and feeling isn't so overwhelming.Ragamuffin

Today was a good day. I picked up a extra job at night that will provide us with a extra $300.00 to $400.00 per week on top of my income from my business. This will help a ton. I told her about it today and she seemed positive. She Didn't strip me butt naked and jump my bones, but she did seem happy I guess. I dropped her off at work and took the kids clothes shopping after giving her money for bills. I think I'm on the right track as far as financial support considering this was one of the biggest love busters in our marriage. I'm still a little distant meaning I'm not going out of my way to intiate affection because I still feel akward because she never asks for it so I feel like I'm invading her space. I kinda feel like if she wanted to be touched she'd ask. She has said she don't ask because she feels guilty like she owes me something. Is not love busting and meeting the needs that don't reguire her imput like financial support and family committment sufficent? Is Giving her space without the affection good enough or do I try to keep giving her massages, and telling her how much I love her? I feel kind of uncomfortable telling her I love her because it's like I'm forcing the issue. Is me just doing what I'm doing and working on me enough?

Bravo on the job. This is the kind of thing that turns the ship around.The main thing that you want to maintain is dialogue. That's how you find out what else you need to do or stop doing. The key thing about that dialogue is that you're likely to hear some things you don't want to hear. Maybe things that are very tough to take. You need to learn about flooding (in the Gottman book "Why Marriages Succeed or Fail") and that half hour breaks are necessary if you start flooding. She's obviously got to understand this too in order for it to be handled appropriately by you both. If you can be very gentle with each other, and very patient, and very kind, you may work your way out of this quicksand. Stay in touch here. Good Luck (and remember, the harder you work, the luckier you get!).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dcope: Today was a good day. I picked up a extra job at night that will provide us with a extra $300.00 to $400.00 per week on top of my income from my business.Jeez...I only recommended that to you this AM. I wish my W was this responsive. Speaking of which -- I kinda feel like if she wanted to be touched she'd ask.If withdrawn spouses were on fire they wouldn't ask to be rolled in a blanket. Speak to her about it, but try to stay connected physically, through affection and sex, when possible. Is not love busting and meeting the needs that don't reguire her imput like financial support and family committment sufficent?If those are her major ENs, yes. Perfectly sufficient. My W doesn't have SF or affection among her top ENs...most women don't. That doesn't mean they aren't needs and they don't enjoy them, it just means they are top crucial decisive ones that win the most lovebank deposits. Like, say, conversation might be to most guys. I'm not going to love you more if you yap at me all day, but if you're real quiet for a week I know something is wrong [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You are doing GREAT! You will earn a lot of respect by taking on the additonal Financial Support effort. This is also good because it will give her some space.Good job!Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 20, 2001).]

HUGE NIGHT!!! Ok I won't pop the bottle of Champagne yet, but we made a giant step in the right direction I think. I picked her up from work and she came home and immediately had my 3 yr. old son put on a fashion show with the clothes I bought him tonight. Then we sat on the couch and watched the two boys lip sync there favorite songs off of the Napster. She put her leg up on me clueing that she wanted me to massage her feet. No Problem! We kind of cuddled and SHE RUBBED MY BACK FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 16 DAYS. It wasn't long but best believe I felt it. She then said I have to go to bed. So she left and went into the room. I probably shouldn't have asked but I said "why is it we can sit on the couch and sit in the car together but we can't sleep in the same bed?" She said because we are separated. This is what separated people do. I said listen I need to ask you a very important question. Why am I still here because separated people usually don't still live in the same house. She said because we can't afford to have 2 apartments at this point. So I said if the only reason I'm still here in your mind is financial, I don't want to be here. I love you. I want a opportunity to give our family the type of life they deserve, but I am not so weak and desparate that I want to be here under those circumstances. So she hesitated a long while before saying that she feels trapped. She feels like she can't afford to leave, she doesn't want to leave to go to her family in Seattle because the distance would devestate the kids, but she has been unhappy for a long time and she doesn't know if she can trust me to do the right thing. I told her I don't want her to trust my words. That my words don't mean anything. That I have lied to her so much and everytime I've lied to her I taught her how not to trust me. I told her that my actions is the key. I told her how our marriage working is a long shot but a long shot I'm willing to bet on because I know I'm ready to be the type of man you and the kids deserve to have leading this family. I told her the reason our marriage didn't work before was because I lacked the marriage skills we needed to have a successful marriage. So basically I told her I didn't want to stay if she has whole heartedly given up on our marriage. She blinked. She said that she is confused she doesn't know if she wants me to leave. She is to confused right now to think. She started going on about trusting me again and how I must think it's easy. I said you know I know it's not easy. The easy way out is to leave, send you money and see the kids when I see them. I don't want that I want to tear down the ruins of our old marriage. Pour a concrete foundation for a new one and build it back brick by loving, patient, and compassionate brick. She just listened. For the first time she didn't talk NEGATIVE. She sounded almost like she wanted to say ok let's give it a try. I backed off and said listen go to sleep, but understand that as much as I love you I don't want to be here if you've truly given up. She didn't say anything else but the tone was different. I think the thought of me leaving stirred something. I think she is really fighting with herself. She wants to try but she is scared. I think we took a giant step. I'm going to slow down and take a deep breath and hope that it carries over into tommorrow. If it does great, if it doesn't back to the drawaing board. So what do you guys think?

dcope,I think you are on the right track. Keep reassuring her, and letting her know that you Love her. Keep letting her know that you say the words because you mean them, but you will show her the actions so that she knows you mean them. Remember not to push.Take One Day At A Time.Griz

Wow. I think you're in. A few more weeks of this perfect husband behavior... Wow."Confused" is exactly where you want her right now! She is now doubting her set in steel-reinforced concrete opinions!. Hooray!I am very impressed. Jealous too. She must have really loved you a lot too. You have a lot more basic chemistry and compatibility than I have experienced in marriage. Even from this low point.Keep up the good work!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: So what do you guys think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well.....I think you took a huge risk there. You basically called her bluff and forced a relationship showdown. She blinked, but perhaps only for that discussion, and now you put moving out on the table, where it hadn't been before.When I was in your place and counseling with Steve Harley, very early on I wanted to say "I can't take the limbo, let me just tell her to make up her mind or not!" Steve's exact words were "Very high risk. She is confused by your new behavior, but hasn't bought into Plan A yet. She still has the inevitability of divorce in her mind. If you show a willingness to give up and a lack of faith in the relationship, she will probably just float along with it. Hang in there....confusion is better than where she was a few weeks ago, you are making progress."Now, your W didn't take you upon your offer to moveout, but maybe it was more because she wasn't prepared for the moment. You took the gamble and turned out okay, for now, but I think it was very premature. From what I heard, her staying in there was based not on love or committment but solely on a lack of finances. I mean, if you had $100k in the bank, she'd be gone, right? That isn't heartening.Don't roll those dice again. Keep your head down on the Plan A behavior.I know I asked this before, but her behavior here is so reminiscent of AGG's W, I have to ask...could there be a third party here? A guy on the side, or an internet chat romance?Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: From what I heard, her staying in there was based not on love or committment but solely on a lack of finances. I mean, if you had $100k in the bank, she'd be gone, right? That isn't heartening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mike raises a good point: My XW said to me during a discussion about her intention to leave "I just have to do this now while times are good." To this day, it is a statement I remain astonished by. But of course, if shaky finances are keeping you yoked in tandem, it makes some sense.During pre-Cana (mandatory Catholic pre-marital counseling named for the wedding where Jesus transformed water to wine [no, I'm not Catholic, she is?/was]), I remember one of the speakers making the statement that while there are financial constraints, many marriages maintain strong interaction as spouses cooperate in order to "survive" day-to-day. Once those pressures lessen, spouses are free to drift apart. There's some truth in that.So the challenge is to maintain that sense of cooperation and communication once the light is visible at the end of the financial tunnel. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...her behavior here is so reminiscent of AGG's W, I have to ask...could there be a third party here? A guy on the side, or an internet chat romance?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Another good point by Mike that can stand reinforcement.I believe I foreshadowed this comment before. If someone other than an EA OM is at work, that person's identity and opinions (say, a hostile, meddlesome MIL) should be already well known. The change-of-heart with no apparent person driving it ... leads to the inevitable supposition that there is some unapparent person. He needs to root out that person and neutralize their influence.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

Well, it may very well have backfired this morning. She woke up and started talking. I listened she broke down and started crying about being scared to go forward and scared to let me leave because she thinks she will lose me as a friend for life. She says she's scared I'll move out and never look back. She knows she can't do it finacially without me. I reassured her that I will always love her and I would never abandon her or my kids. She asked for a temporary separation. She asked me to move out so she can get her thoughts straight. She says she is terribly confused right now, and that she wants to go forward but she can't bring herself to. I told her I did not want to leave but if she wants me to I will to respect her wants. So now I'm on the road. Part of me feels alot better because she broke through and opened up, confessed her love, but reinterated her pain. The other part is now I'm out the house, so Plan A is out the window. I'm sorry I put my foot in my mouth but now I've made another bed. She is very scared of the impact this will have on the kids. Especially the 8 yr. old. I don't know what's going to happen from here but it's here. To go back and say I can't find somewhere to go is a risk. To say I'm not leaving is a risk because I'll be going against my word. So what do I do now. Remote Plan A ? I feel better because the progress over the last few days is better then it was with me in the house even though now I'm out of the house. Can this be possible? What do I do from here? Out of sight is out of mind? Does absence make the heart fonder? Please people give me direction. Am I in better shape, or did I just do irrepairable harm to my marriage? She said from her mouth for the first time she wants a TEMPORARY SEPARATION. This cracked the door for the first time since this ordeal started. Is she craking the door to let me in or did I just crack the door to let myself out?

A tough moment. To find a way to nip the separation in the bud without seeming to cling. While I'm almost of a mind to suggest that it can't be done, I would suggest the following, which needs to be carefully scripted, thought out, and delivered:First, you found some places you could stay, but you think your extra money can better be put toward financial goals. You think it's important to pull together before you think about pulling apart. Second, you don't think you've been crossing any of her boundaries, don't plan on doing so, and would like to remain in the marital home where the two of you can work on your communication and interaction in order to restore loving feelings (you profess to have no doubt that she loves you, but you can understand how right now she doesn't have loving feelings for you--you understand why people say "I love you but I'm not in love with you", and love is a choice, not a feeling), which is one of the challenges many couples successfully face in their marriages. Finally, you just can't imagine your children having to go through the pain of being separated from you, and would like to stave that off as long as possible, provided your wife feels safe with you in the home. Assure her she is safe.All three reasons are oriented toward you holding up your responsibilities to others in your life and not bailing on them, regardless of feelings. If you can think of any similar reasons, throw them in; just beware that they don't display any selfish aspect.Finally, if it doens't work, accept the situation gracefully and back out, then ask her to speak to you often on the phone and ask her to promise to revisit the decision as soon as possible.

arrrrgghhhh....Well, this is why you don't talk about moving out, dcope. So...now what....since she called your bluff, you have to hit the street? BS! Tell her you changed your mind, you won't be the one to leave, you'll give her the space she wants, but, if she wants out, if she wants to quit on the family, if she wants to quit on the marriage, if she wants to strain your already dangerous family financial security....she'll have to leave. And, by the way, yes, if she won't work on your marriage and breaks up your family without giving it any sort of time and effort, you will, indeed, resent her for the rest of your life. Let her make an informed decision, because this "we'll be friends" stuff is a fanatasy.You have to change the debate from the logistics of moving out to the logistics of working on the marriage.This is definitely a setback, but you can overcome it.Rule one for Plan A is STAY IN THE HOUSE. No one can see much change unless it there day-to-day contact. Otherwise, you both are just acting during the brief times you are together.Now....I am definitely starting to get the feeling that you are dodging my questions about suspicions of other men. An affair, even an emotional attachment, may well change the strategy. Do you have any suspicions?[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Tell her you changed your mind, you won't be the one to leave, you'll give her the space she wants, but, if she wants out, if she wants to quit on the family, if she wants to quit on the marriage, if she wants to strain your already dangerous family financial security....she'll have to leave. And, by the way, yes, if she won't work on your marriage and breaks up your family without giving it any sort of time and effort, you will, indeed, resent her for the rest of your life. Let her make an informed decision, because this "we'll be friends" stuff is a fanatasy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Respectfully, Mike, this sounds to me like Lovebusting. This is a direct challenge to her will and her authority in the marital home. She will meet such a head-on attack with a blistering defense, and if dcope "wins", she won't feel safe in the marital home, and will plot a departure of her own. Given where he's at now, dcope needs to approach with much more subtlety than that. I've been there on this one. I refused to go. I let her go sleep at her brother's. What a hollow victory that was.As to the "friends" after marriage: because my wife seemed afraid of losing me entirely ("You're not going to totally diss me out of your life, are you?") I maintained the in terrorem position that post-marriage my wife would be cut out of my life (in time, I'm sure it lost its terror). I kept to it too, though I really didn't intend it that way. How much better to say "I would want to still be your friend, but once we're no longer living together I'm afraid we'll drift apart. I hope it won't come to that." <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Now....I am definitely starting to get the feeling that you are dodging my questions about suspicions of other men. An affair, even an emotional attachment, may well change the strategy. Do you have any suspicions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But I'm right with you on this one, Mike. dcope, we can't do right by you if you won't do right by yourself. This issue deserves a searching examination. How 'bout it?[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

I don't have any suspicions, I don't think there is anyone else. What do I do tonight. Do I leave for a day or two and then come home and tell her I can't leave my family? Or Do I just go home and say I'm not leaving?

Start having some suspicions. Just make a list, and see who might be on it. Include nameless third parties at places she frequents, and include internet contacts, if she spends significant time on the net. Pay particular attention to someone you used to hear a lot about (good or bad), but don't hear about anymore.And when you go home tonight you want to try an end-run approach around the "having to move out" problem. Robert J. Ringer's Type 3 behavior: "I want to do what I promised, but there are these extenuating circumstances that force me to do otherwise." But don't stay wedded to staying in the house or you won't stay wedded to your wife. If she's steadfast, you be the one to bend.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I don't have any suspicions, I don't think there is anyone else. What do I do tonight. Do I leave for a day or two and then come home and tell her I can't leave my family? Or Do I just go home and say I'm not leaving?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>dcope, you have painted yourself into a nasty corner here. I have been trying to give you advise based on my somewhat similar experiences through which I counseled successfully with Steve Harley. But now you have yourself out on a limb, and you really need PROFESSIONAL advice, and not just people on a message board, and, nothing personal to Sisyphus, but don't listen to his advice, it is based in neither Harley or success. I certainly hope that you weren't listening to him when you had that ill-fated conversation.This is your life and your family now, and while I know you said you couldn't afford $100 for counseling, if you are getting ready to pay for an apartment rental, you can certainly afford an hour with Steve Harley. He is available on short notice for emergency situations such as yours. Call 1-888-639-1639 to schedule.If you can't get scheduled with Steve today, I would stay at home and avoid discussions until you do. DO NOT MOVE OUT. It could be that your W will change her mind again. Don't commit to anything, and try to avoid addressing any timetables or issues with her. If pressed say that you need some time to think. Continue Plan A as much as you can.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: nothing personal to Sisyphus, but don't listen to his advice, it is based in neither Harley or success. I certainly hope that you weren't listening to him when you had that ill-fated conversation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, Mike, the last thing dcope needs is to have us sniping at each other. But it brings to mind a good point: I don't think anything I said could have prompted such a conversation, but conversation got dcope in trouble, and silence might (in this rare exception) help get him out. On the off chance she's having second thoughts about what she said, maybe when dcope gets home there won't be any conversation about this because his wife won't have expected anything to happen immediately. dcope, as long as one of your marital problems isn't that you don't follow through on things, it might be good to see if this is something that you can keep off the discussion topic list for as long as possible by just not bringing it up (if follow-through has been a problem, this kind of behavior will be a lovebuster). Maybe find a way to stay "too busy" for that discussion to happen (with kids, or whatever). Yet another way to play for time.It's tricky. dcope has to be careful not to get caught dodging (if that happens, he's got to engage in the discussion, not stonewall). But maybe doable...

dscope: I don't think moving out is a solution. Maybe the two of you need time to be by yourselves. away from the kids and home. Can you afford to take her to a bed and breakfast JUST to TALK..no sex. Just talk. It will be a quiet place. No nagging kids. Then ask her if she would consider going to counseling.It will only work IF she is ready. My H was not ready. he lied and still lies about everything. Trust is only words here. I trying to trust but he has to prove to him that I an believe him. So, maybe your can teach her how to trust you. Keep telling her you love her. I tell my H so often. He says that he know, that's not the an issue. Don't know what his issues are but, he has issues.

Sis, I think you are a real bright fellow, but you let your own emotions and personal experience get in the way of sound analysis in this case. You put dcope into this situation because I don't believe he would have opened Pandora's box but for your rant. You blew it big time.Please calm down and keep out of this for now. Unless you are DANG sure you have a brilliant suggestion that is HIGHLY unlikely to arise from anyone else and is EXTREMELY important for dcope to understand immediately. If you expect he can muddle through without your genius, let him. When I am in a really bad mood I sensor myself hard like that. Maybe I should sensor myself even more often. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Look at your own mess and own plenty of humility. And apologize. Set an example.

dcope,Frequent continuing contact. If you are out, Plan A everyday when you visit your kids. (Make sure you do see the kids every single day if you hope to get joint custody if this all blows up.) Please don't leave. Eat s**t all you have to, but try to give her a neck massage everyday, fill her lovebank. Be her bestest friend ever in the whole wide world, even if you do have to sleep next door because of what has now been said. But you can still beg and test her resolve. Tell her all the money from your second job will have to go for your room out of the home if she insists on the separation, but you could support the family much better if you stay, even if you still sleep on the couch.Sorry about this turn. Keep up the efforts, and get an emergency appointment with Steve if at all possible.(((((((((dcope)))))))))))Karenna

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karenna: You put dcope into this situation because I don't believe he would have opened Pandora's box but for your rant. You blew it big time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If the following led dcope to ask his wife what he aked her about it being fine to be on the couch but him not being allowed in the bedroom (and then to get in the whole discussion that led to being asked to leave), then I'll own it and butt out: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So remember, don't force any issues, don't do (or fail to do) anything such that she would be moved to say "GET OUT", but do focus on those things that answer her concerns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He found his own way into Pandora's Box because there is a strong pressure from inside yourself to apply relationship pressure to your spouse when you're both still in the same house. It was what I was afraid of, but there are so many ways for it to happen that it is hard to warn specifically against each one. I did say: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As long as you are still there, the pressures will build up inside you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was, at length, convinced by others that he could successfully remain in the home. Under the above-quoted conditions (the first quote, about not doing anything to force any issues). He did not refrain from pressing (Mike warned ably about this problem too, and even more directly than I, the first time it happened). Now it's time to see if he can successfully backpedal without a head-on confrontation.This is not in the "told-ya-so" mode. I'm sorry as hell this happened to dcope, but he was walking a tightrope, and it was almost inevitable, even though he has a lot of sense and good balance. He's still hanging on, maybe he can climb back up.I think one of the things that's a problem here is the physical closeness and the massages. Wanted more by him then her, they are nonetheless satiating her on that particular need and whetting his appetite for more. It would be better if he learned to go without, and she were allowed to discover the depth of that need by having the gauge drop to empty. Holding back in that regard while moving forward on long-neglected needs of hers also shows a seriousness of mind and purpose and discipline, even in the face of deprivation. All things she needs to see from him rather than his selfish maneuvering of her into meeting his need for affection.If he wants me out, he'll tell me so. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karenna: You put dcope into this situation because I don't believe he would have opened Pandora's box but for your rant. You blew it big time.I agree. And unlike what he pasted in above, this is the advice I think may have stuck in dcope's head, because he certainly wasn't hearing it from anyone else: Sisyphus: """"First, you have to get out of the house. She is "having her cake and eating it too" in that she is willing to let you meet some of her needs, but has frozen you out of the marriage. Second, you tell your children something like this: "I don't want to leave you, but your mother is making me move out--or rather, she is making it impossible for me to stay. We promised we would always be with each other when we got marriaed, but she doesn't want to anymore, and I have tried to change her mind but I can't. I hope things will change and I can come home, but if they don't I will still be seeing a lot of you, and I want you to know that I love you more than anything." Once you move out, you want to have your new place in complete and inviting cleanliness and order as soon as possible (this is for your own good--we don't need you depressed, and for that matter, you probably should see a psychiatrist for an antidepressant). And you need to avoid alowing her to see it (actually, it would be more like an inspection if she got in there). This is evidently some kind of strong psychological need. My thinking is that by frustrating it you may gain some leverage over time. =======================Sisyphus, you either are totally ignorant of or choose to ignore Harley's methods, and that is what people in trouble come to this site to hear. Your stated logic is that by doing the opposite of what got you divorced people here should succeed. But some situations are so far gone from lovebusting that individual actions are irrelevant, so your thesis is without logic or merit. Let the experience of Harley's writing or the personal experience of people that have had success with his concepts speak to these people. Unfortunately, bad advice on this board has the potential to seriously damage people's lives.Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: this is the advice I think may have stuck in dcope's head, because he certainly wasn't hearing it from anyone else:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And I would stand behind that advice, because it certainly would have prevented the situation we have now, where he has been directly asked to leave, and must either obey or disobey, or dance like hell to find an acceptable way to do neither; and none of the alternatives look good, and a turning point has been passed, all because of a pressure both you and I predicted. Yuck.I certainly didn't plant in his mind the idea that continuing the massages was a good idea, I all but screamed at him to stop that, because y'know, it just leads to that same false closeness that seduces him into thinking the time is right to invite himself back into the bedroom and then, when disappointed, get into a discussion that ultimately leads to the very thing we've all been trying to avoid: his wife saying mroe or less directly "Get Out". Unfortunately, Mike, you did suggest that they continue. I'm not flaming you over this, buddy, I just think that you need to recognize that physical closeness when a wife is emotionally closed is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off in just the way it did in dcope's case. Again, this is not to rub your nose in it, it's just to point out where I was coming from when I suggested a move-out in the first place.I'm not flaming you--we've all got a bad situation here. I think I've been saying things that, if followed, would have avoided it. The issue was never so much his presence or absence in the home. I believe a fair reading of my posts would confirm that. The issue was his presence in the home in extremely awkward circumstances. Which have now gotten more awkward, even though I suggested some ways to make it less so (to be fair, others did too). Had he moved out prior to the turning point, it would perhaps not have been the best scenario, but it would have been better than moving under direct order, with more chance that the wife would have said "come back" (like the showbiz adage that you leave the audience wanting more--and before you get the hook). Now it's precisely in one of the tightest spots it can be in.I'll not take the blame unfairly for this one.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).][This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: I certainly didn't plant in his mind the idea that continuing the massages was a good idea, I all but screamed at him to stop that, because y'know, it just leads to that same false closeness that seduces him into thinking the time is right to invite himself back into the bedroom and then, when disappointed, get into a discussion that ultimately leads to the very thing we've all been trying to avoid: his wife saying mroe or less directly "Get Out". Unfortunately, Mike, you did suggest that they continue.<migraine> Sisyphus, your apparent inability to draw a distinction between massage and sexual foreplay does not mean that it extends to the rest of the human race. Dcope's W clearly enjoyed the massages and even requested a foot massage over the past day or so, and that is clearly an EN and an opportunity to make lovebank deposits. Yes, of course, one doesn't interpret it as a sexual overture. They are two different ENs, SF and Affection.You are starting counterproductive debates here that are making people in need like dcope think we are arguing legitimate Harley strategy points, as well as sapping the time and energy of the the people that do have info to impart about Harley's methods. Please, seriously, go away. This is not a debate forum, or some place for forcefully advocating dubious marital theories of your own invention. The people in need here may not have time to sift Karenna's wheat from your chaff.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Please, seriously, go away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's dcope's decision, not yours.

Well I went home and we talked again and she says that she wants me to stay in the house, and take things one day at a time. Don't pressure her. Don't force issues just give her time to see what can happen. Right now she says she's not ready to give it another chance because she's to hurt, and to confused. She's scared to let me move out because she thinks I will met someone else and go on with my life and not look back. She is more scared that i will not be her friend. She says she could not handle that. She says that if we got back together it would be for me or the kids not her. She says that she would be mad at herself for not sticking to her guns. She says to not love her right now. Just take things one day at a time. I guess I'm right back where I started right? So back to Plan A? Sis, didn't influence me to take the risk I took. I was just being impulsive. I was serious at the time. We had such a positive night I didn't understand why I had to still be on the couch. Well she broke down today and cried and expressed feeling she had never expressed until now. Up until now she was concrete. Now she is softening up right? Did I dodge a bullet here? Ok, what's the next step. Not that I've followed you guys advice to the letter but I'm trying. I'm back in the house she has opened up a little but she's not letting me in still. She listens now. She is thinking alot. She says she can't sleep or function because she feels like she might lose me forever because that's the way I've always operated all or none. What's my next step? Patience, patience, and more patience? Plan A? Or just focus on myself. Mike, Karenna, everyone please don't give up on me!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: Well I went home and we talked again and she says that she wants me to stay in the house, and take things one day at a time. ....Right now she says she's not ready to give it another chance because she's to hurt, and to confused. She's scared....She says that if we got back together it would be for me or the kids not her. I guess I'm right back where I started right? ....I was just being impulsive. ....I didn't understand .... I'm trying. I'm back ....Or just focus on myself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dcope, I can sympathize with your W as well as you. You are lucky she doesn't want you to move out. But, if you look at the editing above, you might see a pattern. She is SCARED. She doesn't want to be hurt more and on the defensive to make sure she isn't. You've proven yourself to be someone other than who she thought you were. You've proven to her that "you" are the most important person in the relationship. Try to move back and actually put yourself in her place. Although men and women don't see things the same way, right now, your W needs you to try and focus on her. I was the W in a very similar situation. The major mistake my XH made was that he TOLD me he was changed, but when I didn't respond immediately to his changed state, he reverted - thus proving that he wasn't really a changed man. I suggest you focus on truly changing yourself. Try to realign your thinking to say "she needs" this from me rather than "I am" doing - whatever. If I had seen an attitude change like that in my XH.... well, hindsight

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: Mike, Karenna, everyone please don't give up on me!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, you dodged a bullet there, and it seems like she said some good things. You can't expect her to heal in two weeks. She is noticing your changes, but afraid that it is a mirage, and afraid to open her heart.All that stuff about staying together for the kids, etc.....fine. Take that for now. You have the secret plan. Plan A. A covert mission to win her heart. It takes time, proximity, kindness, NO lovebusting.Rwad back on Karenna's first post to you, with the list of things to do. Especially, forget your ENs, you have none.You have the personalitytype data...that was VERY helpful to me. Read back on it. If you have an opening, get her to fill out HER EN questionaire...just hers, just as a favor to you, say you want it for your own info, please.....that is another important data point.Don't be discouraged by her not having hope...it is way too early. Your actions PLUS time will = hope for her.Nice to hear that she doesn't want you with another woman...that is a vestige of love, so it is not all gone [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But also, please.....don't think this is over. She has gone back and forth and may go back again. Tomorrow morning she may decide she wants you out again. Please, call Steve Harley. You just saved a month's rent, you can afford an hour of counsel that may save your marriage.dcope, you're killing me here...have a quiet couple of days, huh? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: We had such a positive night I didn't understand why I had to still be on the couch. Well she broke down today and cried and expressed feeling she had never expressed until now. Up until now she was concrete. Now she is softening up right? Did I dodge a bullet here? Ok, what's the next step. Not that I've followed you guys advice to the letter but I'm trying. I'm back in the house she has opened up a little but she's not letting me in still. She listens now. She is thinking alot. She says she can't sleep or function because she feels like she might lose me forever because that's the way I've always operated all or none. What's my next step? Patience, patience, and more patience? Plan A? Or just focus on myself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>dcope, I'm going to try to describe the "concept" that is in her head that you must battle. She might call it "pressure". The best way to explain it is that she doesn't want to be married to you, but feels societal, practical, financial, moral, and finally, personal (from you) pressure to stay in the marriage where she sees no bright future. As long as those pressures are palpable, she will continue to add to a stockpile of personal counter-resolve until it becomes enough to overcome the pressure, and at last she bolts.You have to attack this on many fronts. It's now established that you are going to try to stay in the home. You must establish that this is not for any selfish reason on your part. Selfish is defined by her, but if I may read her mind, it would include anything having to do with your proprietary feelings toward the home, your desire to remain married to her, your comfort or convenience, or your simple inertia. We've already gone over unselfish reasons. We've also gone over the circumstances that would mean you must leave the house, as distasteful and devastating as that would be. Remember, resisting the hook will not endear you to the audience.Never do anything you haven't discussed with her first, or over her objections. Not so much as a new pillow for the couch. Now, about that pressure. Every time you do for her, or have her do for you, any action that has been habitual in your marriage where one of you meets the other's needs (other than those needs of hers you have not been meeting), it is seen by her as an attempt to affirm the marriage that she does not want. That is interpreted by her as pressure, and adds a bit to her resolve--so it's likely counterproductive, or at best neutral. Contrastingly, every time you meet one of her needs that was not being met in the past (mainly, I would think, monetary and security), that is interpreted by her as a sign that something different is happening that might make her want to stay in the marriage. Since it's coming from an unexpected direction, no defense has been built up against it, and it does not require her to add a counterbalancing measure of resolve (or rather, she will fail to have a reflex in place that makes her do so).The tricky one: I bet one of her unmet needs is that you did not do much planning (outings, travel, your future as a couple and your children's futures). You cannot do any long-range planning as a couple. Obviously, that will be interpreted as pressure. What you can do is plan outings with the kids in the short range, and plan for them with things like life insurance, setting up a college fund, etc. (to the extent you have not already done that). A challenge here is to make that seem natural, because it can't be seen as a response to her machinations--right now her thinking is too "borderline" for that (it would be devalued as a response to her desire to leave, and not spontaneous on your part).If you have been the one to keep financial records and details in the past, find ways to gradually shift that onus to her. She has likely felt locked out, insecure, and uninformed. Caveat: she will be looking at past records with a microscope for any discrepancy, which she will add to the list of reasons to leave. You might try getting her started with a clean slate from, say, March 1, and hope that she doesn't insist on auditing the past.Finally comes honesty. It is not what you think: the mere forbearing to utter falsehoods. At a guess, she has had harsh reactions over the years to developments you viewed as relatively insignificant. This has influenced you to omit details that you felt might simply upset her, and since she's probably been unpredictable as to what those might be, information coming from you has likely dwindled down to a few generalities in response to her very pointed and probing questions. OMIT NOTHING! Log your entire day working, and be prepared each evening to recite it all to her. Do not discuss your desperate love for her. Do not touch her for the short-to-mid term. Remold your marriage as a mere business relationship, and one in which she is kept fully informed and given the bulk of the input. You simply become the golden retriever and font of memorized facts and figures about your business and financial lives.If there is anything slovenly, scrawny, unbalanced or ungainly about your appearance, a program to correct it is in order.Now, after this has gone on for a while, you can take steps to try to reboot the other side of the marriage from square one. That would likely come in the form of hiring a sitter for the evening, going for a nice dinner someplace (nowhere with memories), keeping the discussion light and away from relationship issues, and seeing a movie. If you can follow that up with a society or charity function (black tie would be wonderful), all the better. Then just keep moving, as a shark does to keep itself from suffocating. If she ever suggests a date with you before you think you are ready, do not duck, dodge, delay or avoid. You go on that date, exactly when she wants it. And keep it light.If there is porn in your house or on your computer, or she knows that you masturbate, that's gotta stop, vanish, etc. She does not want to know that you are finding ways of meeting your needs while she has had to live like a nun due to her decision. This is all going to be very hard on you. I would suggest that you go to a doctor and get an antidepressant. If it causes anything you don't like (rage episode, somnolence, whatever) go and get it changed. You will likely notice a difference in her when you have been on it long enough for it to take effect. This is normal and natural, because you will be more natural-seeming, more connected-seeming, you will be able to look her in the eye and speak with confidence. Do not attempt to take immediate advantage. If you feel that she is seeing a new you, and you have a firm sense of that, mark your calendar for 21 days; because that is how long it takes to psychologically fix in someone's (her) mind that sort of sea change. You might wait an extra week for good measure. Then, gradually, you can start to explore her heart again. Don't drop off the meds because you feel OK or don't like the side effects.Some or all of the specifics may not apply to you. I'm guessing one or more will. The point is, you want that photographic negative effect to kick-in. You will become, in effect, the anti-dcope, at least insofar as your perceived weaknesses were concerned, while your strengths at fulfilling her needs will be temporarily suspended so that the effect will be emphasized by the absence of background clutter. Relationship discussions should, as much as possible, be off-limits because they require her to be guarded to "avoid giving you the wrong idea". You don't want her reinforcing her own resolve.You never win this game; all you get is extra time in which to play. If you're very skilled and very lucky, that time can be extended indefinitely into a renewed marriage. Should you succeed in regaining her confidence for the specified time, I would suggest you broach counseling at that point and not before (pressure again). With the Harleys, or at a weekend pairs.com, retrouvaille.org, or gottman.com workshop (the latter is in her hometown of Seattle), or with someone who you already know to be good. There is an article on the MarriageBuilders site about how to find a good counselor. That should be something you work on in your spare time, but because it will be some time before you can even suggest going there, you have time to make it a painstaking search. Never expect her to see a counselor you have been seeing alone. She will interpret that as pressure, and feel that you already own the counselor. Other people will have other opinions, perhaps counter to some or all of what I am saying. Weigh them as evenhandedly as you can. There is nothing guaranteed here, except that defensiveness and stonewalling any of her criticism will not help you. Her criticism and contempt are corrosive to the marriage, but there is little you can do to directly influence those habits of hers now. You must be the one accepting influence, to the extent she still cares to try to exert it.Best of luck to you.

I forgot to mention: do ferret out whoever's undermining you, be it a longtime confidant of hers, or a newfound Emotional Attachment or even Physical Affair. They may not even realize they are doing it: if someone (say your wife) is, every day, giving a jaundiced, one-sided appraisal of the state of her marriage to, say, the fairest person in the world; the latter will still respond in ways that reinforce your wife's distortions. That person must be found, and their influence neutralized, either by cutting them out of your wife's life, or by you becoming a real and decent-seeming person to them.

dcope: do not move out- find out. you have made progress with your W - you need to be present to continue. I suspect once you move out your resolve may faulter too - it has only been 2 weeks - if no other person in the picture why won't she work on your marriage? you need to stay - hang in there also call STEVE NOW!!! THEY TAKE CREDIT CARDS

Read this post called "signs of an affair" <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000985.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000985.html</A> it was a good one.

dcope, Hi there. Are you around today? How are things going?I'm not sure that I feel I know a lot about your wife even from this thread. I can identify possibly somewhat. If she is like me she is a very dedicated person and it will be very difficult for her to give up the marriage. You are probably lucky that she hasn't already (maybe the majority of women would have by now), but it doesn't mean she would never. This has worked in your favor and if she is like me she can be a very forgiving person and will bear it until she breaks. What Karenna said is so true: [quote] Second, realize that her idealistic NF nature has given up to her J nature right now, and it feels permanent to her. Decisions are set in stone. Until you win back her feeling idealism. [quote]When my idealism has ended in a relationship and I'm totally spent and all of my every effort is gone yada yada, then my J nature does take over and things feel permanent as if now this is reality and I have to accept it and go on. I am a real giver and I will bend a lot but there is way, way, way down the road a point where I feel I've done all I can and this is reality. If you can change show her and give her plenty of time to see it. If she can believe you have truly changed then she'll take you back most likely. But if you persist in doing it just to win her back and get sex and get what you want and regress like before, you are building your own platform and hanging your own relationship. She is a forgiving person I'd bet and from what you've described (the little of it) she's put up with a lot. She's a strong person probably although she doesn't feel like it many, many times.Constant contact like Karenna suggested is a good thing if she's like me. The backrubs probably fill her (if she's like me) but only as long as you don't follow through wanting something in return. I would say her "J" is in charge trying to discern and determine reality and sort through things. You need to give her time, not press her to make a decision and become a better person. I can relate to the financial security issues and this sounds like it basic to her needs as well. Show her you are providing for the family in these areas and are working to put them back on top and her admiration of you and looking up to you will return, but it won't be overnight. I do think if she's like me she feels a lot and she will be confused. Her heart will be torn. I wouldn't force any decisions or press her to make a decision for you. I know this is hard, but if you are going to call her on her feelings (whether she wants to stay married to you) then she may feel like she will withdraw for a moment but you can bet I'd come back with a decision feeling pressured to make one. Don't let your doubts control you or influence you very much at all even on bad days. If she's like me, she'll pick up on the negativity and it won't work in your favor.I don't doubt that she's been unhappy for some time. I could tell you all about me, but do you know what her needs are??? I'm not her and I can identify with pieces, but did you both do the EN questionairres? What was found there? Also, for me at least confidence and not being jittery helps a lot. I don't mean conceited, but the aura having it together is a real appealer. Worrying too much and having a droopy face only feels like one more thing I have to take care of and deal with. I don't mean you have to be perfect, but if you take on a negative perspective on it's no use in the relationship then you've shot your own marriage down-she has done no such thing at this time and unless she's pushed to she probably won't. Your behavior however has pushed her to this spot. Support ways she takes care of herself like going out with girlfriends. She needs to get filled up and I would bet she wasn't taking care of herself either and so has become very low emotionally etc... This unfortunately is a real stresser for my type of person (many women actually do this destructive habit). We try to take care of everything and everyone and miss ourselves and nobody takes care of us. Is she this type of person at all??Tell us more about her and what she was attracted to in you?HM[This message has been edited by Harmonious Melody (edited February 22, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ihope: I suspect once you move out your resolve may faulter too<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>dcope, I want to point out that this is so true ... by the time I was out of the marital home (I didn't move out until the sale closed), I was so dejected and defeated that I never considered making any effort to reconcile with my XW. I just moved on immediately. Bad plan.That is a darn good reason not to let you and her separate (in the sense of moving to separate quarters), and after #1 depression, it is the #2 thing to guard against in the unfortunate event that you are put in the position of having to move out. One thing I haven't addressed until now, and which is justifiably foremost in the minds of the "remain in the home at all costs" camp (not a bad camp, but I just worry about how high those costs might be), is the legal ramifications of her being able to say you abandoned the marital home. One thing you might do if she turns out to really want you out is to say you won't go without an agreement in place, so that she may not claim abandonment as a grounds for divorce (important: none of this is legal advice--and may not be pertinent to your particular state--which may or may not recognize certain provisions in separation agreements, so moving out under one may be abandonment under your state's law. You need to find out on your own). This is a two-edged sword, because you'll likely need an attorney, then she'll get an attorney, and there may be more than a separation agreement on either or both of your minds by the time the lawyers go to work on you both. Unfortunately, it's almost certain that one lawyer cannot represent you both under your state bar's ethical rules. What to do? First, remember that the need to have a separation agreement is one way to play for time ... you can take on the project of finding one to work with, then run it as slowly as you can get away with. If need be, you might see if you can find a separation agreement in a book someplace--law libraries would be a good bet, either at your county courthouse or a local law school. See if she'll let you work on it on your own. You might throw in some silly stuff that you two can dispute over to slow the process (careful they're not lovebusters in and of themselves). Being your own lawyers certainly isn't the greatest idea in the world, but it may be better than hiring two lawyers to go at one another on your collective nickel, especially if you can engage her and seem to cooperate. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 22, 2001).]

You know I was thinking today that it won't be three weeks until Sunday, and all ready we have had like 7 or 8 in depth draining relationship conversations. This is not a description of Plan A is it? I think I will not talk anymore because it's starting to be a love buster. We had a lighter conversation today and she said that maybe she just needs some time to get over the pain, that the constant talking is coming in like pressure and that it is draining her emotionally. I need to be patient. I need to keep working on being a better person. She says that we have a good day or two and then I'm there like "can we make it work now?" I'm reading alot and spending a ton of time with the kids so all in all it could be worse. I'm still in the house, and she hasn't ran for the hills yet, so I guess I still have a puncher's chance. Harmonious you touched on something that I think is very important. Maintaining a positive aura regardless of the situation. Even on the bad days push past my emotions and find something to be happy about. As far as regressing, not a chance in France. I feel to good about the changes and I refuse to allow myself to slip into that type of depression again. In the event that my wife does not give me a opportunity to win back her heart, there is no way I will get a woman to replace her down the line, 50 pounds over weight, and struggling finacially. I have to pick myself up and go forward. I just want to be strong Spiritually, Emotionally, Physically, and Mentally. What ever happens I have to be ready to handle it. Sis, dude please stop talking about divorce and divorce stratergy. I'm not even in that mindset right now. I need advice on how not to be impulsive and do things like yesterday, and put more emotional strain on my wife and marriage. I need to here about how time can make things better. I need to here positive feedback. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance I will need a attorney at some point, but not right now. I don't think she used the word divorce yet. I think in a very strange twisted way I still control my own destiny. I think this marriage is mine to destroy by being impatient, and impulsive, and selfishly self centered. If she hasn't left yet there is a chance. Right? So my plan is to be happy, supportive, loving, understanding, considerate and patient. Don't talk relationship. Don't lovebust, and work as hard as I possibly can to get us out of this financial mess. Tell me am I on the right track here? My wife is the most devoted, loving, supportive person I ever met. All she has ever done is love the ground I walked on. She used to call me and say when are you coming home? I can't sleep without you in the house. I took her absolutely for granted. She takes alot but once she finally makes her mind up it's next to impossible to get her to change it again. She's very determined. She is very independent. I did alot of stupid stuff during our marriage and never considered the long term ramifications. The first stupid thing was I had a stag party at my house while she was at work. The boys got out of hand and strippers did more then strip and most of my friends ended up using a bunch of condoms that night. In my house. She came home and found like hair, and fingernails all over so she went in the garbage in the shed and found the used condoms. This is in our brand new house we were in the process of buying while she was about 7 months pregnant. She never forgave me for that. Then we moved and we got a comp for the first time. It took me about 3 weeks to engage in a chat room affair, that I had no interest in following through on, but it was the betrayal of trust that did tremendous damage. I called her in New Zealand, and she called me at my office, and she was destroyed by it. Then we had the stress of my mother living with us from time to time. She is a traveling nurse so sometimes in between assignments she would live with us and it caused alot of stress. Then my grandfather who suffered a couple of strokes, and had Alzheimer's lived with us and was very verbally and physically abusive to her and the kids. She was home with him everyday hateing every minute of it. That caused tremendous damage also. Then once again one night up late on line I get IM'd by some chick and ended up having a cyber sex conversation. Somehow she printed out every word and it crushed her. again. I feel like a piece of crap. Again and Again she just kept forgiving me and tried to make it work. I was so blind through this all I actually thought I was the victim. Then there was the night I came home from a party and she found lipstick near my zipper. I could not explain, and this crushed her more. She forgave. I have done alot of damage. All top of these stupid issues I let myself gain a ton of weight, and lost my business, and put us in tremendous financial jeopardy. All along she saying do something different. Get motivated, go forward we are counting on you! You are our leader. I'm sitting around feeling sorry for myself while the cable get's cut off and the gas, is cut off and her and the kids have to boil water on the stove and microwave to take baths. I'm sitting around saying you don't suck me enough. Your not sexual enough. I'm out all hours of the night drinking in strip clubs. She's home can't sleep because she has a upset stomach wondering if we are going to get evicted, becuase I'm in a depression and don't want to work. It hurts to say it because as I think about it the fact is that she is even here, is a miracle. The fact that she let's me see her in panties should be a enough for me. So after all this I get myself together for a couple of weeks and I'm pissed off and frustrated because she doesn't say ok let's go at this for another 6 years. My thoughts were as long as I never had sexual intercourse with anybody all else was fine. So I did tremendous damage, and more but I don't want to share more because I'm sure some of you are already saying she is nuts if she gives me another chance!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I think this marriage is mine to destroy by being impatient, and impulsive, and selfishly self centered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YES!!That is the attitude, right there. People in your position, our position, tend to live and die with every perceived flicker of attitude change in their mate. Bottom line is -- without an affair, nobody leaves a kind, non-lovebusting mate who is trying to meet their needs. So do that and time is on your side. Your fate is in your own hands.I love your attitude, your head is in the right place, and I'm betting on you, buddy. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Mike

Posted by Harmonious Melody: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ...do you know what her needs are??? I'm not her and I can identify with pieces, but did you both do the EN questionairres? What was found there? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> dcope,if you haven't done these, I wouldn't try yet, unless you're sure you can do so without LBing. It's too much like a "relationship discussion" and you've indulged in too many of those already. If she does fill one out, don't bother filling one out for yourself. As Karenna said early in this thread, you don't have any ENs...just worry about hers. Looking at the Harley materials on ENs I bet you can slowly figure out in a non-LBing way what needs she has that she'll let you fill.You mentioned that you're doing a lot of reading. Did you get HNHN yet? Also, follow the "Concepts" link at the top of any forum to read Dr. Harley's basic concepts online. You really need to be reading this...the people posting can't possibly give you as much information as there is in the Harley materials. The forums should be considered a supplement to the materials, not a substitute. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My thoughts were as long as I never had sexual intercourse with anybody all else was fine. So I did tremendous damage, and more but I don't want to share more because I'm sure some of you are already saying she is nuts if she gives me another chance!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One of the things that the Marriage Builders concepts have helped most of us learn is that there's a lot more to our marriage vows than just the part about "forsaking all others". By the time that one gets broken both spouses have usually already failed their partner in many ways. It's good that you're coming to grips with this. The good news is that she probably will give you another chance if you keep up the good work. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You know I was thinking today that it won't be three weeks until Sunday, and all ready we have had like 7 or 8 in depth draining relationship conversations. This is not a description of Plan A is it? ...she said that maybe she just needs some time to get over the pain, that the constant talking is coming in like pressure and that it is draining her emotionally. I need to be patient. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Maybe you should read SAA (Surviving an Affair) and see what it's like for someone to spend months in Plan A while their spouse has a blatant ongoing sexual affair. If you really want this kind of experience for yourself just keep up the pressure and maybe you can drive her into someone else's arms! Otherwise, I recommend cooling it as I think you realize you should do, and have been advised. Realize that it if there's really no other man things could be much worse! Maybe you should seriously consider getting a prescription for an antidepressant to help you relax and be less moody.Anyway, probably you should read HNHN first, but reading SAA or at least some of the stories on the infidelity forums here may be good for you. Next time you get impatient think of the stories of people who have struggled to win back unfaithful spouses, sometimes for years. If you only have to spend a few months in the doghouse while you learn how to be the husband you should have been all along, consider yourself very fortunate.Good luck,Steve[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited February 22, 2001).]

Stillhers, Wow! That was alot to think about. You are absolutely right. I've been bubblely, and engaging and just giving her space. Plenty of non-relationship conversation. It's a little akward at first because your first instinct is to overanalyze every word, and every move she makes. I picked her up from work and sat at the table reading HNHN, and she asked me why are you reading that? I bought you the Green Mile for Christmas and you never touched it. I said because I'm learning so much about marriage skills and the inner working of a marriage. She said I don't believe in that stuff. Just like I don't believe in marriage counseling I think by the time you get there it's to late. Little negative comments like that get under my skin. She came to say good night and said Thank You for picking me up from work, and I instantly gave her a smirk because I thought it was kinda sarcastic. She said what was that look for? Thank you for picking you up from work? I'm your husband. I'm supposed to pick you up. See, little things like that make this harder then it has to be. She is now going out of her way to make me feel the distance between us. I think she likes the pursuit, and begging and pressure I really do. She thinks that comments like that will spark a reaction. This is the type of BS I don't have patience for. I can settle in and be patient and supportive, but the more space I give her and don't engage in relationship discussions she starts this brother and sister, A ocean between us distant game that aggrevates the heck out of me. Ok we said we wouldn't talk about our relationship anymore. I would not pressure her, but she's enjoying watching me twist in the wind I can tell. I know that drives me nuts. I'm starting neutral conversations just to not be quiet, and aloof, and she gives me this dry one and two word answers. Then she gets on the phone with her sister on the west coast and she has all the energy and the words in the word to talk happily. I'm just ignoring it for now but, I'll tell you it's very frustrating to have her act this way. Can someone explain it to me? Why does she act this way?

5 words....Dr. Philip McGraw. Relationship Rescue.I bought the audio book cuz I can't read al too well. Listened to it for the first time today and only got through side A of tape 1. Tere are 4 tapes. $20 and WELL worth it. Do it. Now!From what I've read dcope, you are alot like me. Get the book or the tapes....Best to you, hang in there guy! I did! I am!------------------ <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I am a loving father, and in my heart a Husband who (still)loves his (Ex)Wife and wants the best for his Family. <LI> My happiness comes from within me, I owe it to MarriageBuilders.com and the people that use it for helping me show it.<LI>KISS Keep It Simple Stupid. Stop over analyzing. And understand your thought life better.</UL>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: Stillhers, Wow! That was alot to think about. You are absolutely right. I've been bubblely, and engaging and just giving her space. Plenty of non-relationship conversation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good, I think that's what you need. Sorry if I was a little tough on you, but this is a marathon, not a sprint and you'll never last without calming down. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> She is now going out of her way to make me feel the distance between us. I think she likes the pursuit, and begging and pressure I really do. She thinks that comments like that will spark a reaction. This is the type of BS I don't have patience for. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You'd better if you want to save things. Avoiding lovebusting is even more important than meeting ENs, or you'll squander the benefits of all the positive things that you're doing. She's probably testing you--doesn't believe you'll really be different. If you react angrily you'll prove her right. Remember, Plan A is about you being different, not about her response. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ...she's enjoying watching me twist in the wind I can tell....Can someone explain it to me? Why does she act this way?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> First, reread the things you listed previously in this thread about what you've done to harm your relationship with her. Think about how you'd feel. She's angry, and you would be too.However, this may be a good sign. Read what Dr. Harley says about the 3 states of a relationship: intimacy, conflict, withdrawal. The worst state is not conflict, but withdrawal. He also indicates that you don't move from withdrawal (where you've given up caring about your spouse) directly to intimacy. First you go through conflict. What she's doing sounds a little passive-aggressive, but may be her way of engaging in conflict.Remember, someone who's fighting in a relationship at least cares enough to fight about it. That's a lot better than when they've given up, just don't care anymore, and are ready to walk away. So, if she's showing anger where she was withdrawn before this is likely to be a good sign.Don't blow it now and let her see that she's getting under your skin. Keep up the good Plan A.Best wishes,Steve

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>originally posted by dcope:Sis, dude please stop talking about divorce and divorce stratergy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I used the D word exactly once, and just as a warning of the potential downside to formalizing a separation with a document. All of us hope it doesn't come to that--but you still want to have a contingency strategy mapped rather than having to cast about frantically in the heat of the moment.The folks who say she is back in conflict are right. What are you supposed to do? Take Your Medicine! She needs to punish you for a while to make her point. You need to do your time in the graybar inn, stony lonesome, hoosegow, whatever you want to call it; and emerge a rehabilitated member of society--ready to start on the bottom rung. 'Cause believe me, some of those antics ... well, let's just say my XW would have left already ... taking some of my anatomy with her!So memorize this response to her jabs: Ouch! I deserved that! Use it until it's second nature. At some time in the future, you may be let out of the penalty box. Much of the behavior you need is contained in my prior post ... one of the trickiest things to guard against is having her decide that you are acting like everything's OK. That will be your temptation when things return to surface normalcy. Here's another spot where you have to walk a fine line ... if you're too hangdog, you actually do get depressed and she loses respect. If you're too upbeat, she gets angry. So think Boy Scout: thrifty, kind, cheerful (but not overly so), courteous ... and a few I can't remember. If you get the "acting like everything's OK" criticism, then you say "I'm sorry, I know how seriously I hurt you and damaged the marriage. I'm doing my best to show you that, but sometimes my feeling that we may be making progress gets the better of me." Or words to that effect. Then see if you can stay subdued for a while, and find some job around the house that needs doing.One last thing: the marriage books and counseling ideas. You need to counter her notions, but subtlety and gradualism are called for--direct challenge will harden her attitudes. So when she speaks negatively about marital help (not marital aids!), say something like "I'm hoping you'll give me a chance to make up for lost time." or "From what I'm reading, I don't even think we're in good enough shape for counseling yet--but I hope we will be soon" or "Maybe the best counselor in the world can't save us, but no matter how shaky your last chance is, you still take it." It might also help if you pick up Dr. Laura's "10 Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives". There's hardly any better way of showing contrition than by burying yourself in a book with a title like that.P.S. - At a guess, I think one or more of "the girls" is giving her poisonous relationship advice--although some of it seems justified as a wake-up call, given the history.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

Sis, thank you for that post. That is the type of encouragement I need right now. Your other post usually have me between moving out and saying forget it! or ready to slit my wrists. I truly do appreciate all the time and energy you have dedicated toward helping me through this. Everyone on this board have been more help then I can every express. Mike C2, Kareena, Ihope, Stillhers, every single post have been heart felt. I'm optimistic, I'm full of joy right now because I know God will bring me through this in one piece and in better shape then when I went into this. The range of emotions and mood swings is my biggest challenge. Learning to stop reading into every little word and act is also my challenge. I'm almost finisded with HNHN, so I will find something to read after that. there have been several suggestions on the thread that I will look into. It has been 3 weeks almost. My goal right now is to go another 3 weeks without talking relationship, or intiating contact, and work on myself some more. The saving grace here is that I've been reading some other posts and there are plenty of people in alot worse shape then I'm in. Prayer, Patience, and Perserverance. Ther 3 p's is my direction right now. Thanks everyone for your support!!!!!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: Your other post usually have me between moving out and saying forget it! or ready to slit my wrists.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There is to be no talk of wrist slitting. My other posts are hard, because frankly you're in a tougher situation than Marine Boot Camp, and you needed to be cognizant of that. The good news is you're already starting to make the grade. Don't quit. And don't associate moving out with saying forget it. Remember, I'm with the don't move out crowd, but if it comes to that, remember the American general in the Korean War who, characterizing his retreat when surrounded by the Chinese, said "Retreat Hell! We just turned around and attacked on another front!" There is no moment when you quit! Not till the last dog dies!But for your sake and her sake and the kids sakes, keep the dogs alive: rested, fresh and pulling!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dcope: She came to say good night and said Thank You for picking me up from work, and I instantly gave her a smirk because I thought it was kinda sarcastic. She said what was that look for?arrgghhh...dcope, don't look for fights. If she is sarcastic, ignore and roll over it with positive vibes. Pretty soon it won't be fun to try and get a rise out of you.It sounds like she may be coming out of withdrawal into conflict, testing the new you, trying to see if it is allan act, trying to stay justified in her mind that she should end the marriage. This is opportunity time. Don't rise to the bait. When she tests you treat it as her recognition of the new you, and pass the test.You just had a very eloquent quote up above summarizing some very good reasons why she should be ticked off at you. You have to serve some time in the doghouse. When you lovebust back at her sniping, you just add to your sentence.Mike

dcope, Mike just highlighted a major lovebuster that I didn't notice before. Gottman only talks about two specific, universal facial expressions that do tremendous damage to marital good feelings.1. The upcurled upper lip (one side). A universal expression of disdain, disgust, contempt, etc. That may not be what you mean by it, but nonetheless, it's gotta go.2. The "eyeroll". You know, rolling your eyes back as if to suggest "there she goes again" or "she's nuts". Same deal. It's gotta go. And for God's sake, NEVER COMBINE THE TWO![This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

"I instantly gave her a smirk because I thought it was kinda sarcastic."dcope: no smirks!! remember that every LB can set you back to ground zero!!! a whole day/week of great behavior lost in a smirk.try pretending the message was delivered in a loving or at least neutral way. Think before you respond. YOu might have said exactly the same thing, but in a different tone - you may have been able to turn the conversation tone around. Ignore her sarcasm (is it that or are you interpreting it that way? - from your previous posts, she is not presented as a sarcastic person - so are you putting your feelings on her?) Remember that your mother told you to treat others as you wish to be treated. ALWAYS SPEAK TO HER IN A LOVING, SUPPORTIVE MANNER.I just counseled with Steve today. I have to work on my attitude too and this is a very difficult aspect to change. It is not easy (ha!) like going to the gym everyday or making better eating choices. He suggested I especially pay attention to how I treat others in my H presence - my children!!! I sometimes yell at them for being messy, or am sometimes less than compimentary --I would never speak to my H this way - but he can generalize my behavior: if I have angry outbursts with the kids then I am always that way!!! HOw are you with your kids? Think about how you treat others, you may gain insight on how to change.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: 1. The upcurled upper lip (one side). A universal expression of disdain, disgust, contempt, etc. That may not be what you mean by it, but nonetheless, it's gotta go. 2. The "eyeroll". You know, rolling your eyes back as if to suggest "there she goes again" or "she's nuts". Same deal. It's gotta go. And for God's sake, [b]NEVER COMBINE THE TWO!I don't think it is possible, try it. And it gave me a headache. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Also, don't cross your eyes and stick out your tongue, because your face will freeze, my ma said, and you'll have to wear sunglasses the rest of your life. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 23, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: And for God's sake, NEVER COMBINE THE TWO!I don't think it is possible, try it. And it gave me a headache. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you kidding? It's easy. Your damned emoticon (smiley) is doing it! Look close at the mouth! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Now, if you want to do a really spooky exercise, try writing what your W, or H, or STBX, or X would write about your marital troubles, breakup, etc. I just tried it, and it was cathartic and shocking at the same time: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002269.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002269.html</A> [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

I went up to her yesterday and said you know I want to apologize about the look I gave you yesterday, I said I thought you were being sarcastic. She said no I wasn't that is not my nature, but I appreciate you apologizing. I'm not talking relationship or smothering her with affection. I won't touch her until she is ready to be touched, and I definitely won't talk relationship. I took my sons to a hockey game yesterday and she decided she wanted quiet time at home and to go out with a girlfriend and have dinner. I was a little disappointed that she didn't want to go with us. She came up to me and said you know I feel guilty about not going with you guys and going out to dinner with my friend. Are you mad at me. I said you know the thought never crossed my mind to be upset. You deserve th eright to do what ever your heart leads you to do, so have a good time. She was home by the time we got home but I just went to bed and she did to. This is the hard part. Waiting, waiting, waiting. Well I'm up to the task. I just hope that one day I have a opportunity to live the type of life we all deserve. Here is a question we were invited over her friends house with the kids. She has not asked me to go, but she asked me will I be attending or just dropping them off? I really don't feel like being over there acting like the happy family when that is not how it is. Should I go anyway or should I spend the time I have alone, and go to the movies or something? She didn't take me up on family time, do I have the same right?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I really don't feel like being over there acting like the happy family when that is not how it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Catch-22. You won't start being a happy family until you start acting like one.She opened the door for you to go, so go. Be upbeat. Be happy. When your wife asks you that, say "I was looking forward to going." And go and have fun and be the fun partner that she remembers you being, the one she married, the one she used to laugh with all the time.Or, do that other thing, your plan, go sulk and be sad. Whichever sounds right [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Be there. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Well, I didn't go. I actually looked forward to being home alone. I'm not sulking or feeling sorry for myself, but the place she is going is not where I want to be. I would rather sit here and finish HNHN tonight.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I'm not sulking or feeling sorry for myself, but the place she is going is not where I want to be. I would rather sit here and finish HNHN tonight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just a few thoughts that may help your road....Be careful that your new found enthusiasm and interest in learning about marital relationships doesn't sidetrack your actual Plan A efforts in your marital relationship. (This from Mike, closing in on 1500 posts here) I'm not saying that you not going the other night was necessarily a good or bad move. But a big part of Plan A is getting in the game and being a good mate, and oftentimes you need to gird yourself and be brave, moving into situations where you may not want to. Case in point -- this weekend my W had a little reunion with a few of her cousins at a honky-tonk bar in her hometown....I tried casually to wriggle out of it, arguing to myself I was giving her space, etc, but she definitely wanted me to go. I'm pretty good in social drinking situations [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

and she said several times on the way home that she was really glad I went, her cousins run a little quiet, so it would have been a sort of awkward night without me stimulating conversation and being Fun Mikey. So...major lovebank deposit, I think. I would watch out in your situation for your wife going out socializing alone, even if it is with kids at a friend's house. Your absence will underline the "crisis" atmosphere in the relationship, or maybe even spur comments or conversations. As I said above, you have to act normal sometimes before things start to feel and be normal.Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: me stimulating conversation and being Fun Mikey<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not being sarcastic - this is for real!I can see you being very good at communicating and having a good time! You sound like a very interesting person... And someone that would be fun to know!!! Hope at some point your wife REMEMBERS to appreciate you for it! (I think she did - casually - when she REALLY wanted you to GO! That's special!)Jan

Well, I had to change my screen name because I think W was lurking and getting insider info on my plan A strategy. I'm the original pollster of this thread so keep in mind, my screen name changed but my situation is the same. Mike I'm very concerned that what I was doing was not LBing but not making the contact and affection neccassary to make Love Bank deposits. Tonight was different. I think I may have broken a foot and back massage endurance world record. Major deposits I hope. The deal is this I wanted to keep my distance in order to offset the negatives assocciated with the over talking done over the last couple of weeks. You know I could be wrong but I think I may be breaking through slowly. She seems to be gravitating around me lately and asked for affection today? Is this a good sign.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: You know I could be wrong but I think I may be breaking through slowly. She seems to be gravitating around me lately and asked for affection today? Is this a good sign. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Definitely a good sign. If I had been posting this weekend I would have suggested a "temperature check" -- meaning a casual interrogation -- to find out whether she wanted you there or you would just be imposing yourself if you went. If you can keep doing the massages without starting to feel so warm and fuzzy that relationship talk ensues, that's fine. I was never concerned that you were trying to go in an erotic direction, but when Mike and I were so at odds, that wasn't the time to add fuel to the fire by trying to make that point. My "invite yourself to the bedroom" or words to that effect were simply directed toward the natural desire to return from exile, not get physical. I'm not sure I agree with changing your screen name and trying to throw a potentially lurking W off the scent. My XW hated that I was on here and considered it a terrible betrayal (but I was also posting in a "slow" section of the boards where I was getting relatively non-helpful advice [or rather, validation of some misconceptions] from a single person, rather than here in the EN board or over on D/D). I think spouses should be gratified that we give a damn, if only belatedly sometimes. If you're running a mere "strategy" that they can't know about, I feel the substance of a real Plan A may be lacking. These should not be surface changes just to get W to recommit. These must be heartfelt, lifelong, and recognized as mainly for your own benefit as being a better human being regardless of whether they are successful in preserving the marriage on paper, or the existence of any relationship whatsoever with your spouse (although if you do things right, that should not be an issue). I could, in fact, foresee a situation where a "loser" spouse could slingshot beyond the spouse who was contemplating divorce (in terms of the first spouse's personal growth), such that the second spouse would be momentarily comfortable, then uncomfortable again for less-justifiable reasons (anger that it took so long, perhaps combined with a sense of distance born of now being "behind the curve"). My paradigm for this effect would be the alcoholic whose enabling wife is fed up, so he becomes sober, and the marriage still goes bust because she is unable to cope with his (virtually all positive) changes. There must be some literature around on how to prevent this. One obvious strategy would be gradualism. But as to a spouse knowing about Plan A, I would think that a direct statement about it wouldn't be believed, and might lead to a spouse trying to consciously or unconsciously undermine it; but if the spouse finds out on their own through snooping, they may in fact feel enjoined from commenting on or attempting to affect it (of course, that all depends on the spouse's personality and how far they are into withdrawal). [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 26, 2001).][This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 26, 2001).]

I think the way to handle this is to not be verbally querying her all the time on what she wants, because, frankly, half the time she won't know, and the other half it willlead to another grim relationship talk. Try to be highly sensitive to non-verbal signs and signals. My W called this stage "Mike walking on eggshelss" and while she said it annoyed her somewhat, I think it probably annoyed her far lkess that the other strategy for working through this awkward period, which would be constant verbal sparring. I think she also appreciated the concern it conveyed.If your W is lurking here looking for clues to your strategy, I congratulate you. She is showing more interest than most withdrawn spouses would.I think you are on track. Keep it up! Time and patience....Mike

Well here is a new twist. We talked today about life in general. I was telling her about how I lost the ability to dream for a long time. She says that she is so proud of me and the changes that I made and that she thinks that this is the real deal. Then she said she has a feeling that I am going to come out of this thing in very good shape. She thinks she is going to come out of this thing in terrible shape. I repressed the desire to tell her that I can make her happy. I just told her that she will be fine. She seems to be a little annoyed at the fact that I'm making the changes now. She says she is totally confused now, and has no idea what direction she is going in. She says she has soul searching to do. I just kind of left the convesation there, but I didn't know what to say when she said I'm going to be ok and she's going to be very messed up at the end of this. She also said that she is so frustrated that I didn't make these changes earlier when she could have benefited from them. I don't know if this is progress or not. Is this a positive or negative?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She says that she is so proud of me and the changes that I made and that she thinks that this is the real deal. Then she said she has a feeling that I am going to come out of this thing in very good shape. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A major goal of Plan A is to have your spouse come to see you as an attractive mate, even if they've not been in such a fog as to actually leave for someone else. Sounds like very good progress. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> She says she is totally confused now......so frustrated that I didn't make these changes earlier when she could have benefited from them. I don't know if this is progress or not. Is this a positive or negative? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, you did know that you were running uphill, in sand, right? Two steps forward, one step slipping back still gets you to the top of the hill, IF you don't quit.Reread my earlier post and Mike C2's where we both discussed the state of conflict. It will take a while to get to intimacy.Stay the course! Two steps forward, one back, two steps forward...I think you're getting there.Steve[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited February 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She thinks she is going to come out of this thing in terrible shape. I repressed the desire to tell her that I can make her happy. I just told her that she will be fine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's tough to not take the bait (that was a relationship-testing question, and you successfully resisted the urge to push)! Now, this is a question that will come back in various forms, and over time, you will be able to answer it in increasingly concrete and foward-looking ways. That's good too, even though it presents new and kaleidoscopically different risks every time it comes up (because it comes up as the last link in different emotional cascades). If you can, try and pick the low point for her particular complaint (if you can ascertain it) in your recent past. The point from which there has been nothing but relatively steady progress. That point becomes the anchor from which all such questions are answered in the future. You will say something like "I know it's going to be tough to even think about forgiving what happened in the past, but think about where you are now compared to <insert bad time here>. I don't want you to feel any pressure to stay, but know that no matter what happens, I won't let that happen again. If you have anger that you need to let out, I'm here to listen." Over time, an answer like that becomes (at the very end of her finding herself thinking like this) "Look at how far we've come. You never thought it possible. Why would you throw that away now? Where else can you go and have things be better?"Your challenge is to give her appropriate outlets to expend the anger without having to pack up and leave. Which means you are going to be a punching bag for a while. If you can get her to her general practitioner for an antidepressant (or to get hers rotated), now might be about the time for it. Try to avoid her getting to a psychiatrist for individual counseling. You don't know whether that would help or hinder. If she can be steered toward a pastor, you can be more comfortable that the advice given will be supportive of keeping the family intact. This is a very touchy area. Don't overplay your hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I was telling her about how I lost the ability to dream for a long time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just noticed this. It was depression (happened to me too). She may have played a large part in it, at the very least she didn't help you much with it. It's likely she didn't know her part in it, nor how to really help you, and possibly it never even dawned on her that there was a significant problem with your mental and emotional state.Don't blame her, and don't look to her for your salvation either. You be in charge.The ability to dream doesn't come back right away either, unless you work at it. What do you want? Not just in terms of money or possessions, but life. I believe it was Shaw who said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desparation." Well, that needn't be the case. Search your feelings occasionally for signs of it. When you feel it, deal with it early.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She also said that she is so frustrated that I didn't make these changes earlier when she could have benefited from them. I don't know if this is progress or not. Is this a positive or negative? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, this may be WS-speak for saying that she wouldn't have had the affair if things had been going better.I think that you might use an analogy with her that I used with my W at this stage, and it was helpful in managing her expectations. Mike's AnalogyOur marriage got off track. We wandered down the wrong road. For many years, we followed this trail where we were mean to one another, didn't meet each other's needs, took each other for granted, got further away from the right road....headed from the light to the dark. Now we are heading back the right way, out of the dark, toward the right road. It won't take all the years that the original journey took, but it won't be done in a day or a week. But each week, things should get better, get brighter, get lighter. This journey will be more enjoyable, because we will see improvement instead of deterioration.I don't expect you to believe I know the way, or have faith in my direction, because I helped us get lost in the first place. I only ask that you stay with me, open your heart when you can, watch for improvement, watch for things getting brighter. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 27, 2001).]

I'm really getting a little confused here. I did my best today. I don't engage her in relationship conversation or pressure. Today she says she is really frustrated. I'm growing as a person, doing soul searching and seem very happy, and rejoiceful. She feels like she's screwed! She feels like she can't win. I did all the damage to the marriage and I'm the one getting my self together and going forward and looking good, and changing as a person, She feels like she busted her butt to make it work all that time and I did nothing, and now I'm getting it together and she's screwed! I didn't know what to say. I want to say you don't have to be screwed if you open up a little bit and let me show you how happy I can make you. Somehow I know I should not say that so I didn't. I feel terrible for her. I can lead her to water but I can't make her drink. She is so stubborn. She refuses to give one inch. She said today after I went a bought a couple of outfits that I look great. She feels confused and trapped some how. She feels like the only way to be happy is to go in a direction she doesn't feel like going in. I don't know what this is. Is it progress, or is it a dead end? Help I getting some what confused myself! I'm not acting happy and rejoiceful, I'm just not walking around like my best friend died. I'm getting up everyday and keeping a positive attitude and she see's it as rejoiceful. Talk about damned if you do damned if you don't. Help!!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Today she says she is really frustrated. I'm growing as a person, doing soul searching and seem very happy, and rejoiceful. She feels like she's screwed! She feels like she can't win.Can you tell me exactly what she said? What her words were?By the way, I apologize, up above I said something about an affair, I had you momentarily confused with myohmy's case. Serves you right for changing your name [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Did you read it and go "An affair!! Oh NO! Holy cr*p!!! Even Mike knows!!!" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Anyway, here are the three certainties in your situation, dealing with a withdrawn mate:1. She will have to go through the conflict stage in order to get to intimacy from withdrawal.2. She will test the new..er...whatever your name is now, to see if it is an act, to see if your old lovebusting self is right there under the surface.3. She will be mercurial, moody, volatile, insert your favorite like adjective.You have to sort of insulate your mood from her moodiness, your resolve from her depression, your...something..from her....whatever. I'm tired. You get the point. Plan A is about you, not about the change you HOPE it brings day one or week one or month one from your mate.Be sure that there aren't any REAL issues under this...like, she isn't mad that you spent money on clothes, is she? I mean be ultra sensitive to any bona fide complaints she has with your actions, but also be prepared for moodiness.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Today she says she is really frustrated. I'm growing as a person, doing soul searching and seem very happy, and rejoiceful. She feels like she's screwed! She feels confused and trapped some how. Is it progress, or is it a dead end? I'm not acting happy and rejoiceful, I'm just not walking around like my best friend died. I'm getting up everyday and keeping a positive attitude and she see's it as rejoiceful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's progress toward a very delicate turning point.What follows is best delivered to her in written form, because things will otherwise get out of control.You need to counter this particular cascade of negative thoughts at all costs. Tell her that you feel trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that you have pretty much concluded that she will leave you and you will go into a long downward spiral of depression and anger over it, and that you realize your only slim hope is to make lasting changes in yourself. Tell her that your seeming seeming joyfulness only masks your fear and dread, but it's your effort to pull up your internal feelings by your outside behavior's bootstraps. Tell her you trapped yourself over time without realizing it, and now realize you are trapped in your own personal hell of marital disintegration; while her new thinking has actually set her free, because she knows she can leave the marriage if she decides to do so: There is no force you can bring to bear that will override a judge.Ask her to ignore the marriage for a while, like a farmer lets a worn-out field lie fallow for a time, and look to some outside hobbies or activities that will make her happier. Tell her you feel like she has every right to do this; and if after she does it for a while she is still troubled, she can look back at you, at herself and her children and then make some final decisions what to do. Write that you love her and will always love her, whatever her decision.With any luck, she will do exactly what you recommend. If not, you hope it will at least confuse her for long enough to shake her resolve.This may not work ... but it counters the thought that she's trapped, that you are happy-go-lucky, and that she needs to act right now. Remember, you're playing for time while new thinking slowly strangles the roots of some really bad weeds that grew from neglect.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Tell her that you feel trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that you have pretty much concluded that she will leave you and you will go into a long downward spiral of depression and anger over it, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Susyphus, what are you, the freaking Blair Witch? Get out of here with this terrible advice. You are like the guy yelling "jump" up at a window ledge.Imp, stay upbeat, stay positive, absorb her fears, be her support during this time period.

Mike, I respectfully disagree. At this critical juncture, she needs to be given some sense of his sincerity, and how much effort is being put forth by him--but not in verbal form where there can be one of those damn talks. Keep the happy face on, but make clear that it's a mask for both their benefit, not something mockingly waved in her face.My view is they are looking for some contrition, however, being a downcast individual and/or groveling is one example of how husbands get in this predicament of having the wife lose faith in the first place. And grim determination just makes things -- grim. But there's still a message to be delievered with respect to what's going on inside him ... so that she doesn't get the wrong idea.It's my view that women are looking for something when they express these concerns. It is a bid for some sort of reassurance ... which is in competition with the desire to not believe reassurance so that it can all be over. If anybody knows a way to deal with this or thinks they have a better idea or thinks just stonewalling it is a better idea, I'm open to hearing their thinking. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 28, 2001).]

Yes Sisyphus - I think it is probably best as you have said, that dcope let his W know that he is doing his best in a difficult situation, not trying to get swallowed up or go spiralling into dissary and that's what's really going on inside himself. If I was his wife, I would feel very gratified knowing that he was going through something himself for my benefit. Sometimes appearances aren't always what they seem (the nice clothes, happy smiles, etc) and the other party may feel threatened by these appearances, that perhaps their spouse has "moved on" and isn't trying hard enough and is the one going to come up shining. Dcope's wife, I think, is looking for reasons to keep the marriage going but through all the hurt and suffering, she can't quite envisage that yet as being a possible outcome. She needs to know that dcope can sustain his promises and good intentions and not just give up the minute times get tough. I'm a woman, going through some tough times myself, and this is what I read as dcope's wife's motivation. I absolutely detest stonewalling, can't see it serving any good purpose towards reparation. Although, dcope's wife's stonewalling seems justified to me at this time; until he can go the distance to prove that he really is sorry for past mistakes and that a better life can be built. That takes work.

PS: I have to introduce myself: I am just starting out myself with couselling from Steve Harley as I am so overwhelmed by the problems of my own very probably marriage breakup. Anyway, these marriage difficulties are so convoluted, it's heartening to know that maybe there are some likely ways of getting the love back in there (eg, adding love units, avoiding LBs etc) They're great ideas. I have been following this subject now for a few days and am very interested to find out how each day's progress is going.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Susyphus, what are you, the freaking Blair Witch? Get out of here with this terrible advice. You are like the guy yelling "jump" up at a window ledge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mike's right, but there is a little core of truth to Sis's suggestion also. Sis, you are NOT being objective. dcope/imp is NOT in your marriage. The core truth is that eating dirt might help. As in helping to validate her feelings. But it is also a fallacy. If he overstates her feelings it truly will push her over the edge and into a divorce or separation she would not dare go to on her own volition. Him stating it first is a HUGE mistake.Even eating dirt won't do anything constructive. Just trying to put the negative past to rest. The way to improve the relationship and get back into a marriage is through proactive positive steps. Such as meeting her EN's and being a good, happy and friendly friend.Negativity is too easy. Ignore Sisyphus. The good stuff is mingled with too much dangerous advice. Mike has better ideas and a successful perspective. Get some Harley counseling before you go negative again. Until then, LISTEN to her. And don't go beyond validating her stated feelings. Don't put WORDS OR FEELINGS IN HER MOUTH!!!!! Ever.

Impulsive,I've been following your journey towards rebuilding your marriage here, and know it must be so difficult for you. You have made some real progress. Keep up the good work.I have noticed, in following your situation, that my own internal responses to what you write come up over and over again. I feel compelled to share them with you, for what it's worth.I get anxious hearing your desperation, impatience with the process, and result-driven frenzy. I hear that you are trying to mellow out but are barely able to contain yourself. I'm sure your wife must sense that too. If I was your wife, I would be afraid, plain and simple. Afraid you might swing the other way and betray me again, like you did on so many other occasions. Afraid your changes are only temporary and you will go back to your old ways as soon as I give in and let down my guard. Afraid to place hope in our future, only to have that hope come crashing down around me again - this time hurting more than before. Who wants to bare that pain, yet again? Each time hope is crushed, it is harder to hope again. One becomes more cautious and protective of one's self. Your wife already has a wounded heart and is going to be very protective of it - much like a cut that one takes care of so as not to re-injure it. Her heart is still healing, and that can't be rushed. It really can't.It took many years to get to this place with your wife - it will take a while, (not 2 or 3 weeks,) to rebuild the trust and allow your wife to heal and feel safe again with you. This journey is a process, not an event. Please let go of your drive for results and proof that all is well in your marriage. If you are doing what you need to do, things will occur naturally. Let them occur naturally. I say this because there are so many indications that your wife still has feelings for you. You are lucky. She's just scared. And hurt. The more pressure you place, the scarier she seems to get and the more she wants to run. You're both doing a dance. You move in close, (just a little,) she moves in close - (just a little) you move in closer, (too close!!) she backs away - (Not safe enough.) You retreat, get scared - then pursue too strongly in a desperate attempt to get close again. She runs further away. Then you ease up, gently approach again - (just enough for her to feel safe,) she moves in a little closer. Then you move in too close in desperation, and so on... You can change the rhythm of the dance to a slow and easy one. Ease up, ok. There's no rush.I think a big turning point for you occurred when you finally confessed to your part in the marriage difficulties here. Good for you!!! When you realized that you had hurt her so badly and betrayed her regularly. There is strength in viewing the situation from the other persons side. Patience, not impulse, is your strongest ally.Best wishes, hopefulheart

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karenna: If he overstates her feelings it truly will push her over the edge and into a divorce or separation she would not dare go to on her own volition. Him stating it first is a HUGE mistake.Don't put WORDS OR FEELINGS IN HER MOUTH!!!!! Ever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think he would be putting words in her mouth. He would be putting his deepest darkest fears on paper. I think she has already been clear about her feelings.He is expressing his cognizance of how far her thinking has already gone ... if some small part of what he writes is farther than she has already gone, I don't believe she will be highly motivated to make it thinkable. Rather, she will be ready to offer reassurance.One of her deepest needs right now is to have him show some understanding of how badly she hurts, and how much he has to answer for. Demonstrating understanding like that should make her more willing to engage in the rebuilding process, or should at least move her to put her escape plan in neutral.Her impression that his improvements in dress and attitude are mocking her negative psychological state ... must somehow be ameliorated. The approach I'm advocating attempts to convince her of the falsity of its premises (by telling her just how ripped up inside he really is--these are facts outside of herself that she may not be aware of), but asks her not to fight her trapped, hopeless and devastated feelings (which would be seen by her as an attempt to invalidate them), instead to pause to allow them to dissipate.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 28, 2001).]

Hopeful heart, Those were some very thoughtful word is your post. I think your perception of the situation is right on. I have acted impulsively from time to time and everytime I have it has hurt my cause. I think she is really starting to notice the sincerity of my changes. She asked me today. "Now that you are so holy now, is it possible for you to be a good person without having God in your life? I was taken aback by that question. She said she notices that since I've been in church I'm a totally different person. I do things she didn't know I knew how to do. I'm so mellow, I'm so nice. She wants to know will I be the same way if I stop going to church. I hesisitated because it sounded like a trick question. Where is she coming from with this line of questioning? She also told me that I look skinnier and skinnier everyday, so I don't know what's happening but there is something going on. My coping mechanism is totally ignoring my urges. For sex, for affection, and conversation. Am I on the right track her? Can someone please give me some perspective on what's going on here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Where is she coming from with this line of questioning?She's testing the new you, wondering whether she can trust it to be there and be stable. Maybe she has had her own religious faith wax and wane, and if your changes are all based on religion, she may feel that she can't trust them to be permanent.Anyway, you are right about your impulsive nature hurting things. Plan A takes a lot of discipline. It is easier to lovebust or confront sometimes than it is to stay cool and be calm.Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She asked me today. "Now that you are so holy now, is it possible for you to be a good person without having God in your life? I hesisitated because it sounded like a trick question. Where is she coming from with this line of questioning?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Women believe faith in God gives men some compass for their behavior other than a simple aim of gratifying themselves. You tell her you can't be a good person without God in your life, therefore church is a must (if you can pick up a small group, or bible study before services ... quietly do so). Be sure to resist any of her efforts to challenge your churchgoing by somehow derailing you with a differing suggestion or demand on your time.As to the weight loss, be sure to keep the protein up, but with at least some carbs (no Atkins), for a handful of meals a day that start big and get smaller toward bedtime. If you lose your energy level due to lack of appetite, you will be in trouble.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 28, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: I believe it was Shaw who said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desparation." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It really doesn't matter, but this was Thoroeau, not Shaw.Good luck, impulsive. I hope you are able to see some improvement soon.

Hi Folks, Just wanted to mention that our main "purpose" here is to support each other through difficult times we may be having - or just getting a feel for how others interpret what may be happenning to us. Advice can be a dangerous thing - both to give and to take. (And you know what they say about "Free Advice"!) Unless somebody has credentials to show you - AND they are VERY well acquainted with the specifics of your situation, then all "advice" you read here should be taken under advisement. The last thing we should do here is encourage others to take drastic action - unless it's to get away from an abusive spouse or something along those lines. Check Dr. Harley's information on this site - you will generally find that calm, quiet, loving discussion and negotiation is the way to find a solution - rarely by ultimatum, and never by threat.Just be careful folks - as bad as situations may *seem*, things can go from bad to worse if one partner decides he or she is gonna "make things happen" or "run the show".KNOW who your sources of information are. We have to learn from the mistakes of others - we won't live long enought to make them all ourselves!------------------ Valiant, Moderator Marriage Builders Forum[This message has been edited by Valiant (edited February 28, 2001).][This message has been edited by Valiant (edited February 28, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: Keep the happy face on, but make clear that it's a mask Sisyphus, so far in this thread you have:1. Advocated that he move out, 2 weeks into Plan A, with no OP involved.2. Tell his wife that he feels the situation is hopeless and he is "trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that you have pretty much concluded that she will leave you.."And now, the above. Tell her his whole Plan A is a sham, an act, that he is faking.I think your ignorance has crossed the line to being dangerous. You are messing with people's lives here. I hope that before anybody follows your advice they would realize where it has gotten you.

Mike, I am incapable of responding in kind to you. TAFKAdcope can feel what his situation requires. I have some faith that he will not misconstrue the ideas. If you want to call staying upbeat but revealing that inside you are hurting, scared, and holding to a slender reed of hope "a sham", there's nothing I can do to stop you. I would call it a demonstration of courage, as in grace under pressure. To not reveal these things allows her to paint his attitude to her in her own mind as denial, or worse, happiness because of her discomfiture and the pending breakup of the marriage. Neither of those two helps his case at all with her, merely reinforcing her sense that she must get out.If you feel he cannot, or should not, do something like this, then tell me does she want to see:ease - or effort? denial - or cognizance? depression - or determination? clutching after her - or a light touch? happiness at the situation - or torment at the now-recognized peril?How can he best impart to her all of the things that she needs to see in order to convince her it's safe and wise to wait a while?

Congratulations all. We have "elevated" the discussion so far beyond help and debate that we have now achieved Moderator input. This is the second time I have seen Moderator input in a year of addiction, and the first time I have seen Moderator input in the form of admonishment! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hi impulsive,I want to give you a different perspective if I can. I am a wife who has been in withdrawal from her husband. I withdrew from my husband because he had an affair, and I know that is different from your situation. But what happens after withdrawal will be pretty much the same.For most women, withdrawal happens over a long period of time or for a VERY drastic reason (like the discovery of an affair). When the connection of intimacy is broken, it takes a long time to reestablish it. It also takes a lot of trust. The comments from your wife seem to illustrate that she WANTS to believe the changes she sees in you are real and permanent, but she is not convinced of it yet.Your impatience and impulsiveness are very damaging to her. They serve as little undermining episodes that lead her to suspect that the changes are really an act, and that the act is about to end. You have to give her the time to trust you and see for herself that you really ARE different now.Mike explained it well. Relationships go from intimacy to conflict to withdrawal. To get from withdrawal back to intimacy your wife will need to deal with the conflict again. That includes the feelings of uncertainly that she is sharing with you. Give her more time with no pressure from you. Reassure her that you are in this for the duration, that you are committed to becoming a better person and that you want her to be there to share the new life you are working to create. But don't try to force it.When she is ready to approach you on a more intimate level, respond in kind. Let her know each step of the way that you love her and are willing to wait until she is ready for the next step. I know that being patient is very difficult, but it is absolutely necessary if you want to save your relationship.Your wife is afraid to let you get too close, because she is afraid of being hurt and disappointed. If you try to force her to move things along too quickly, you will find yourself facing a very firmly withdrawn woman again, and it will be much harder to overcome the next time.You have been given a lot of advice on this thread, much of it conflicting advice. I really think the best thing for you would be the advice of Steve Harley. I can truly say that he has been instrumental in saving my marriage because he showed my husband how to deal with my withdrawal and overcome it. He can do the same for you.Beware of ANYONE who tells you to say-this or do-this. Also, please consider this. Mike has successfully dealt with a withdrawn wife and is now in a loving restored marriage. Sisyphus is divorced, as least partly because he followed the advice he is now giving you. I think that pretty much says it all.Please keep in mind that I am sharing things more from the other side, and I really wish I could be more helpful. I can promise you that recovering your marriage and making it so much better is well within your reach.Best wishes,Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by peppermint: Reassure her that you are in this for the duration, that you are committed to becoming a better person and that you want her to be there to share the new life you are working to create. But don't try to force it.Mike has successfully dealt with a withdrawn wife and is now in a loving restored marriage. Sisyphus is divorced, as least partly because he followed the advice he is now giving you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Peppermint, you're right about the patience and not forcing things and the reassurance, and also right that I am divorced, but wrong in that what I did was not what I am saying now may help the situation (only dcope/impulsive can gauge because he is right there -- and I think it is important that he not live up to his impulsive name, but wait and respond with a cool head to whatever requires a response). In the withdrawal stage, she has nothing further to tell him, is through making efforts to get a point across, and simply wants out. In the conflict stage, she is desperately trying to make a point, and if she can't know that it's being heard and acknowledged and acted upon, which way do you think she's going? Intimacy or withdrawal? How can he acknowledge in person when he floods as men do when the conversation turns tough? And what are the elements that make up an acknowledgement that allows him to stay in the fight for another round?I think the elements are:1. I've made a mess.2. I realize you think it's too late to clean it up.3. I am cleaning it up.4. I don't feel good about the mess, even though a part of cleaning up the mess is for me to feel good--so when you see me feeling good, don't misinterpret that I'm feeling good about the mess.5. I recognize that you don't have to wait here for the mess to be cleaned up--I'm begging for that, but I know I have no right to it--your freedom is not an issue for me.6. I would like you to neglect the matter of the state of the marriage and not dwell on it for right now, so that when you look back, things are in much better shape.In retrospect, I was missing 5 and 6, and my 3 was weak. Of 4, the only part I had was the positive attitudinal change that could be brought on by antidepressants, and sometimes that would lead to a direct challenge to 1 and 2, rather than acknowledgement. So while 4 was pleasant, and made XW feel good, XW would also find herself having to try to reinforce 1 and 2 in my mind by withdrawing yet again, and further each time.To put it another way, if dcope/impulsive dons the happy mask, which we all agree is a mask and all agree must be maintained; and yet we all know how fearful, etc. he is inside, where is he meeting the honesty requirement in Harley's teachings if he does not share with W that he is no longer a slave to his moods and feelings, but is now rising above them?In my marriage, when at last the bulk of these things came out in a marital workshop, they were stunning revelations to my XW, and produced immediate goodwill. What happened to that goodwill? On our return from the opposite corner of the country, there was a delay finding a marriage counselor (the best-qualified one was out of town), and when XW spoke to another, she was turned off by that one--and then declined join me in further attempts. In retrospect, I should have been much more hurried and aggressive; and less selective on the counseling front. I flat ran out of time.So I agree with the people who are screaming for dcope/impulsive to get with the Harleys. Or anybody else; especially a local, credentialed, live human being who can sit eyeball-to-eyeball with the two of them.We can share our viewpoints, our particular experiences, whether successful, or unsuccessful (with the benefit of hindsight), without making disrespectful judgments. I'm concerned because I interpret some of the posts as saying that dcope/impulsive's attitude must meet W's openly-expressed concerns with a stonewall of happiness. I think that would be palpably dishonest, and detrimental to recovery even regardless of whether W gives it credence or not.Until dcope/impulsive says he has conferred with a counselor and gotten something from them, I see no problem in contrasting viewpoints being respectfully expressed--after all, this is a forum.

Thank you Peppermint. My wife and I had a very good positive night last night. We went to my son's hockey game and then I took the family to Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, and then I rushed her home so she could see the last episode of Temptation Island. I read the kids a bedtime story and put them to bed and then she asked me to watch t.v. with her in her bed. I said o.k. (Kicking and screaming [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

So we are in the bed and I'm massaging her from 9:30 to 10:30 having a very pleasant time of it all. Then she says out of the blue. You know you are so calm and mellow and helpful and loving I don't know how else to describe you other then HOLY. If you were going to be with someone else would you want someone as HOLY as you are now? I said why would you ask that? She said because you don't drink anymore, you don't swear anymore, and I still do both from time to time. It just seems like we are bigger opposites then ever now. Will you be looking for someone in the Church, or someone out of the Church. I just said Listen, I am the same person I have always been. I've just come to understand that I have been very neglectful to your needs and the only thing I would ever want to do is treat you the way you deserve to be treated. I don't have to curse, and drink to be a good father and a great husband. She then invited me to sleep in the bed last night. She just said not to be mean but I've come to enjoy sleeping by myself. Then she said just don't molest me. I said I won't. Then she said you know you are so HOLY now I couldn't even imagine you being freaky in bed like you used to be. Then I fell out laughing. I said are you kidding me? She said really you are so different now. Your quiet, mellow, calm. I said I'm just walking with God, and working on being a better person. Then she said well, you can sleep in here TONIGHT. I said so you mean just tonight? She said yes just tonight I think you deserve to sleep in here from time to time. I took it as sympathy, and I kissed her on the forehead and got up and went to my couch. I went to morning worship service this morning and when I got home she met me at the door and said where did you sleep last night? I said on the couch. She said OOH I thought you went somewhere else. She said you know you didn't have to get out of the bed last night! You know things will never go forward or progress if you act that way. I said what way. She said sometimes you just have to go with the flow. Stop letting your pride get in the way. I said I was not mad. She said well you could have stayed in the bed and left well enough alone. I said ok, maybe I should have. However why didn't you leave well enough and just let me stay without making the comment you made. She said your right I should not have said anything then you would of stayed. So the moral of this story is she wanted me to stay in the bed with her last night, and because of my foolish pride I slept on the couch. The other part is I think she sees my changes as real, but she wondering if I'm to straight and narrow for her now. I think we are making progress slowly but surely. I'm a lot more patient, and very mellow. I feel like I have had a anti depressant but I haven't. She loves the changes. She is warming up but she just doesn't know how to with out feeling like she is caving in. OOHH She also said to me. Why do I keep giving in? I said what do you mean? She said I feel like such a sucker, because I keep giving in and putting myself in position to get hurt again. I said I will never hurt you again ever. She said well i just fee like I should be stronger then I am. It sounds like she lightening up. Is this as much progress as i think it is or am I reading into to much. I'm so numb and confused on some levels i can't see straight. All I know is I love this woman a ton. I will never forsake my responsibilties of meeting her needs again. The changes I've made are life long. I just hope I'm on the right path with her. Imput please!

The Song of Solomon makes it quite clear that eroticism and Judeo/Christianity are not at odds. But that's still a ways off in the future...If she says sleep in the bed, you sleep in the bed. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Do not decline to sleep in the bed when she wants you to sleep in the bed (I did that one too, and it's your own form of withdrawal, and one you should not give in to). Think about how far you've come ... she was talking about getting you out of the house, and at the time I was reading it as a demand on her part. Tell her you're not holy, you're walking in grace, which is undeserved favor. Plant the seed in her mind that she might dispense a little grace of her own.At some point, she needs to realize that she is not caving in--rather what she will be doing is tasting the fruits of the victory she has won for both of you. That's down the road a bit, don't rush it.This all looks very promising. But don't neglect the Harleys or the local counseling front in this campaign.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I read the kids a bedtime story and put them to bed and then she asked me to watch t.v. with her in her bed.Good!So we are in the bed and I'm massaging her from 9:30 to 10:30 having a very pleasant time of it all.Good!I just said Listen, I am the same person I have always been. I've just come to understand that I have been very neglectful to your needs and the only thing I would ever want to do is treat you the way you deserve to be treated.Good!She then invited me to sleep in the bed last night.Good!I took it as sympathy, and I kissed her on the forehead and got up and went to my couch.<needle skips> What!??! Bad! Bad!Look, she is opening the door to intimacy and affection. Don't slap her hand. The fact that she is doing this shows she is coming out of withdrawal a little. What happens sometimes is that when we men are distant or strong it gets a positive reaction, we are so shocked that we blunder into still being distant because that is what was working. You probably felt great climbing onto your couch, like you had the upper hand a little. But how do you think she felt, alone in her bed? Maybe rejected?If I were you, I would tell her that you are regretting not staying with her last night, and that you hope the invitation is open.I'm not sure where this whole line of questioning about your 'holiness' is going, but it seems to be a concern on her part. It seems to be a part of the new you that maybe she doesn't like so much, or at least a part that is raising her suspicions or making her a little disturbed. As the spouse of a confirmed goody two shoes Sunday school teacher, I often wish I had a more fun partner. I'm not sure how you should go here...on the one hand, she may think that any change in your 'holiness" is a collapse of the whole Plan A, a peek under the mask, as it were. On the other hand, she might feel comforted that the new you will still be the fun, horny, partying guy she fell in love with.I guess I would continue talking to her, and trying to see specifically what she likes and doesn't like about your behavior in this area. Maybe you need to come home and say "Hey! Let's pound some f&^%$%^ beers tonite! Woo-hoo!! " [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Sisyphus, What do you know of the Socratic method and have you ever tried it? ------------------ A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karenna: What do you know of the Socratic method and have you ever tried it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tell me how you describe the Socratic Method and whether you might have seen hints of it in my posts? And what does dcope/impulsive have time to work out on his own, versus needing to simply run with on the faith that it has worked (or that efforts have been damaged by its absence) before?[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Look, she is opening the door to intimacy and affection. Don't slap her hand. The fact that she is doing this shows she is coming out of withdrawal a little. What happens sometimes is that when we men are distant or strong it gets a positive reaction, we are so shocked that we blunder into still being distant because that is what was working. You probably felt great climbing onto your couch, like you had the upper hand a little. But how do you think she felt, alone in her bed? Maybe rejected? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I love Mike's point here. Resisting her pull makes her feel bad. Overrunning her by being carried forward with any momentum she imparts to you is also bad. Your movements toward her are to be entirely dictated by her, with neither resistance nor presumption on your part. When she pulls, you move; when she stops pulling, you halt.Remember, Plan A is not about having any of your needs met. Unless she wants to meet them; and then you don't reject, nor do you demand more, you simply accept what she gives (because what she is really doing is meeting her needs when this happens).And if she later expresses regret at something she has done or allowed to be done, acknowledge her feelings ("I'm sorry you feel like it went too far, I'll be more careful of that in the future."). Let her express herself on the subject without defending yourself or blocking her out because what she's saying is painful to you. Do ask her not to beat herself up for wanting things that make her feel good in her life. Tell her you hope that in time she'll feel safe to do things like that again.

Sis, I see heavy handed didactic lectures and tons of advice. Points are far more effective when "thought" rather than read. Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective. Even if the answer is blatantly obvious. At least it gives the reader a little tiny bit of credit for having a mind.Can you phrase your ideas and suggestions as questions? You will be less accused of being argumentative and destructive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karenna: Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective. Even if the answer is blatantly obvious.Can you phrase your ideas and suggestions as questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I post with plenty of question marks where they are called for (I'm sure you can find 'em)--and typically don't see any answers. The problem with the Socratic method is that it may require more time than is available, and even the obvious answers may not come when emotional strain is extreme (imagine a seargeant saying: "Hear that sound? Do you think it's an incoming mortar? If it is, what do you think you should do about it?"). What would you have me do when I sense both urgency and either paralysis or pending precipitous action?I don't think anybody has all the keys, but we can share our experience, strength and hope--with enough detail to allow the readers to see if there are parallels to their situation or not. Where there are counterpoints, I hope people will express them without calling someone names. But that's beyond my control.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

Hey dcope/impulsiveI have been thinking a lot about you the past couple of days. As I re-read your posts, I realize how similar our situations are. The biggest difference though, is the absence of an OP. Some times I envy you for this, but mostly I thank God that you do not have to go through this. You have come a long way, and still have a long way to go. Stick it out buddy. Your W seems to be confused about things. I believe she makes comments to you about how you will come out of this on top, but she won’t because she has not realized that what you are doing is to come out on top for both of you. She does not see this YET, but I believe that she will.I also believe from your recent posts that she is starting to look for validation on feelings she is not sure of. She wants her EN met, but is afraid. Don’t let your pride get in the way. Give her the EN she asks for, but be prepared to step back. This will not be easy, but I have faith you.I am pulling for you, man. I look forward to see how your progress is coming along. Have faith in God.Stay the course, my friend, stay the course.Griz

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karenna: Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So....Karenna, how come you never check your hotmailaccount?

Hi again,Your description of the evening was very enlightening. Your wife is clearly showing signs of moving away from withdrawal.As to why she makes the comments like the one you mentioned about being holy, she is looking for more reassurance from you that you really ARE different. She is kind of testing you to see how you will do with these questions. Will you answer them calmly and thoughtfully or will you be sarcastic and short-tempered.Here's my take on the sleeping together thing. I don't really think sleeping on the couch was such a bad idea. Her comments were still all part of the testing she is doing right now. Remember this, all women want to be wanted. Even if she doesn't want you intimately right now, she still wants some reassurance that you still find her attractive and are interested in her sexually. You just have to walk a fine line there. If she questions you further about leaving the bed, it is okay to tell her that you didn't want to make a mistake and try to push things too quickly, but that you are still very attracted to her and find it hard to ignore those feelings of attraction.I am not advising you to "put on a happy face", in fact I think you should be very honest about your feelings. But I also think it is very important to put your wife's feelings first right now.You are definitely making very good progress, and I think the fact that you can tell your wife likes the changes she sees and is starting to feel more confident in them is a most positive sign. Just keep up the good work, and please seriously consider getting some professional counseling. Your marriage is worth it.Peppermint

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peppermint: Remember this, all women want to be wanted. Even if she doesn't want you intimately right now, she still wants some reassurance that you still find her attractive and are interested in her sexually.lol....funny you say that. I struggled with this last year....my wife would act annoyed at SF pressure or sexually-oriented affection, so I'd get my feelings hurt and be distant, turn down a few initiatives from her....and it would just destroy her, she'd look like a little kid, a puppy in the rain. Like, the one thing she can in life is my sex drive. Well...she has self-esteem issues mixed in to....as you say, it is a fine line.I like your posts, Peppermint.

Mike,Thank you. I do know things from a woman's perspective, especially a WITHDRAWN woman's perspective.And I do see real hope for impulsive's marriage, don't you?Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by peppermint: And I do see real hope for impulsive's marriage, don't you? Peppermint<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do. I am jealous at his rate of improvement. I have been at this for a year, and my W hasn't communicated as much in total as his did last week...I think there was a lot more love left in her tank than imp thought.

I feel very lucky because I could have lost her forever. She is very confused right now. I'm mad at myself for getting out of the bed last night but that water under the bridge right now. Griz, Hang in there buddy. I know as well as anyone what that hopeless feeling in the bottom of your stomach feels like. She needs time dude. Time to see some change. As long as I was in my wife's face everyother day saying give me another chance I saw no improvement. I left her alone for about a week and the change set in on her. I'm not out of the woods by a long shot, but I'm still in the game. Peppermint I agree with everything you said. I'm giving her the weekend alone to think things through. I'm taking the boys to Cleveland for a hockey tournament. So she will be here alone. (I think! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Then she will be going to California for a week to visit her sister. We will have some time apart and I hope the distance does us some good like it has in the past. I think I have to do a better job, projecting a fun loving personality. She sees my changes as too laid back and reserved I think. Should I get more aggressive trying to meet her needs or should I still stay back? She has made it clear sex is not a priority for her right now so I guess more cold showers are in my immediate future. What is the plan once they start to come out of withdrawal a little?

Well!! I heard the magic words tonight. Let me give you background first. I picked her up for work. She said she had a couple of beers at work. I said well would you like to have a nightcap with me? She said ooh My God, would you really have a drink. I said well I bought a bottle of Cabernet to go with the new new wine rack that I bought today. She always complained in the past that I never bought anything for the house. So today I did. Anyway we sat down and started talking and drinking a very good bottle of R.H. Phillips Cabernet Sauvignon. I started by telling her you know while your at work at night I miss you so much! She said that is so very nice to hear. Then she said but you know the bad part about our situation is that not only am I dealing with the emotional baggage of our marriage but now I'm having to deal with other issues, from my childhood. (Deeper then you can ever imagine)(Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and a mother with 6 certified personalities, never knowing her father and a step father that sexually abused her) I told her that if I was selfish I would just want to work on our marriage, but I understand and love her enough to want to help her deal with and overcome those issues also, before jumping into our problems. I also made her understand that she is worth it to me. She said that through all the bull**** she has come to realize that I'M NOW THE MAN THAT SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH!!. She said that the issue she is dealing with is where did I go for all that time? That is her highest hurdle. Dealing with what made me get off course knowing that I had our families lives in my hands. I explained that it was two fold. First it comes from my mother. My mother is the most compassionate, giving, and loving person on the face of the earth, but she has depression issues. I'm the same way. I can't function unless I know that everything is going to be o.k. I've grown past that point over the last month. The other part is that I lost my spiritual compass. I made a decision to leave God out of my life! My life was not teh same every since. The other side to is my father. 25 years ago he decides he was not going to eat meat again and he never looked back. I have that in me too. Once I have my mind made up. I'm like a machine. The problem is getting to the point where my mind is made up like it is now! I told her my mind is made up to love, respect, honor and cherish her for the rest of our lives! She said you know I'm horny as hell right now but I'm forcing myself to ignore it because I'm so emotionally drained right now from the tramua of trying to satisfy you while you were depressed. She said the thought of sex makes her emotionally exhausted. I said you know you are worth the patience, and love and supporrt I'm going to have to give you to get to the next level of our journey. The bottom line is I think we took a giant step tonight. She said I'm that guy she fell in love with. She is just scared I'm going to disappear again. She also said that her pipes are working! She is just forcing the overide switch. I'm as happy as I've been in years. I think this is progress!!!!!!!!! Am I right? OHH my God. I love this women more then I can put into words! OK people 4th quarter, two minute warning and the game is on the line! I'm down by a touchdown but I have the ball in the red zone!(Inside the 20 yard line of the opponent) MikeC2, Kareena, Stillhers, Everybody that have ever gave me advice, give me input now. I love this woman and I'm determined to save my family. Call the play. I need a touchdown! What do I do?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'm as happy as I've been in years. I think this is progress!!!!!!!!! Am I right? OHH my God. I love this women more then I can put into words! OK people 4th quarter, two minute warning and the game is on the line! I'm down by a touchdown but I have the ball in the red zone!(Inside the 20 yard line of the opponent) MikeC2, Kareena, Stillhers, Everybody that have ever gave me advice, give me input now. I love this woman and I'm determined to save my family. Call the play. I need a touchdown! What do I do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are NOT down by a touchdown. You just tied the game all by yourself. You are the expert on your wife. Now that you are back at an even tie, she IS open to you meeting many, if not all, of her needs.What play are you thinking of?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She said that through all the bull**** she has come to realize that I'M NOW THE MAN THAT SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH!!. She said that the issue she is dealing with is where did I go for all that time? That is her highest hurdle....OK people 4th quarter, two minute warning and the game is on the line! I'm down by a touchdown but I have the ball in the red zone!(Inside the 20 yard line of the opponent) MikeC2, Kareena, Stillhers, ...Call the play. I need a touchdown! What do I do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you want a football analogy, I'd say keep running the same plays that have been successful until the other team stops them. In other words, don't get all excited and make a dramatic change now.The real concern I read into the "where did you go all that time?" business is the unspoken question "how do I know you won't go away again?". The only way to reassure her there is time. Keep demonstrating that the changes are permanent.I'd be cautious about coming up with a "new play" at this time, unless there's a good reason to. That's a good way to show her that the changes are not permanent. If the plays you're running now are working, why change? Keep showing the consistency. Sometimes what works is not a new play, but playing hard through the fourth quarter...you just have to be patient and have endurance.If you have something else in mind, like Karenna, I'd ask what is it?Just my quick thoughts. I couldn't sleep and decided to check your thread.Steve

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Then she said but you know the bad part about our situation is that not only am I dealing with the emotional baggage of our marriage but now I'm having to deal with other issues, from my childhood. (Deeper then you can ever imagine)(Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and a mother with 6 certified personalities, never knowing her father and a step father that sexually abused her) I told her that if I was selfish I would just want to work on our marriage, but I understand and love her enough to want to help her deal with and overcome those issues also, before jumping into our problems. I also made her understand that she is worth it to me. She said that through all the bull**** she has come to realize that I'M NOW THE MAN THAT SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH!!. She said that the issue she is dealing with is where did I go for all that time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, that's an ugly enough childhood for anyone to have to endure. She's a real survivor just to be able to live day-to-day. She'll also flood emotionally much more easily than the average woman. The normal protective mechanisms that women possess are absent or at least crippled. It's hard for her to have difficult discussions--you need to be very gentle.With this new information, I would say the problem was neither in you nor in her, but obviously between the two of you. How to explain this? Suppose you're both perfect. Well, obviously things are always good (I know: impossible, or hardly ever happens). Like Tolstoy said: "All happy families are alike. Each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."So both of you are imperfect. But when things are pretty good, you can both keep the parts of yourselves that function well "out front" doing the job of keeping the marriage in good shape. If one of you starts slipping a little, the other corrects the imbalance. The problem starts snowballing when one of you is having a problem moment simultaneously with the other. Then Ais too distracted, troubled, etc. to help B, so both A and B's problems start spiralling. Who should take the blame? I don't think either of you should.Where did you go? Well where did she go? The problem is not resting inside either of you, you need to be bouncing it back and forth between you like a basketball. Yes, you both still have your own internal "issues" that need to be addressed on their own. But the problem is outside both of you.And if you feel you'll score brownie points you can still take the blame for the bulk of it--of course you still have plenty of bad behavior to answer for. But, without expressing any certainty in it, plant the seed in her mind that it wasn't entirely you, especially since she now knows she had the other issues going. Try to bring her to the conclusion that both of you are still a little disoriented by everything that has gone on, and it's time to try to sort everything out with a professional. While the pendulum of her emotional state has swung toward acceptance of you, it's important to plug her into committment to a process of restoring your marriage. This moment is that elusive momentum that must be taken advantage of in order to get traction so that you two can move forward. If you miss taking advantage of it, you may have to endure another cycle.The fallback position would be that she and you should work on your issues separately and be patient to see if addressing them will help rejuvenate the marriage. Frankly, I don't like the idea of a shrink getting hold of her alone--there are no guarantees that the therapist's approach will be friendly to the marriage unless they're carefully vetted first. But if you do the latter, it's better than nothing.Remember the Harleys.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 02, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Call the play. I need a touchdown! What do I do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't fumble. Ball control.Rather than look at this great, albeit alcohol-aided, milestone as an end game or a turning point, look at it as another probe into the new you. If you overreact in jubilation, she will feel the need to correct with a downer for you. A volatile reaction from you will make her less likely to poke her nose out again. Don't be surprised if she doesn't feel the need to dampen your enthusiasm today or tonite. Then again,. maybe the Nasdaq just has me depressed today [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Either way, try not to get too high or too low. Think about what is working, and stay with that plan. But between you and me...YAY! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

GREAT NEWS!Question: Have you seen improvement with what you have been doing? If so, KEEP DOING IT! Patience and steady progress. Remember that your marital problems happened gradually and so will the improvement. Changes that you make slowly and steadily will become lifetime changes, not just "flash-in-the-pan" events.You're doing great!Peppermint

Not much advice that I can give, but I do agree with Mike. Ball Control. Hail Mary passes are rarely effective in any situation. You may feel like you are a touchdown behind, but you still have all your time outs. Stick with what you have been doing. No trick plays now. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Griz

Hi Folks, Looks like you guys have the right idea - sorry if what I said came across as an "Admonishment" - was really more intended as a "be careful" - but even more "be NICE!" Folks on this board (me included) are here because we have, will, or possibly expect to encounter "challenges" with our marriages. Some folks coming here for the first time are already very upset and on the edge of walking out of doing some other such drastic thing. Guess I would just add that people are especially sensitive at time like this, and the folks who have been through it and maybe formed some strong opinions need to handle our "newbies" with kid gloves. I've had a couple of complaints/concerns of people being "chased off" or "scared away" - and that or outright abuse is the only time I will say anything as Moderator. This forum is great - it is actually one of the better ones I have seen - on any subject - and considering people here are hurt, needy, and unsure (speaking for myself, of course - the rest of you guys have it all together!) we manage to keep pretty civil. I think that speaks very highly of us all! So once again - the only caution is be nice! As for the newer folks, don't let a strong personality or forceful presentation scare you away - you will find the full range of opinions on this forum - pick and choose as you see fit. ------------------ Valiant, Moderator Marriage Builders Forum

I growing very tired of the roller coaster routine here! We had what I thought was a break through. I go away for two days, and it's like we are back at step 1. I'm starting to think that maybe this whole thing is a mistake. I will maintain my changes but maybe I'm changing for someone else the Lord wants to put in my life? Just the day to day struggle of dealing with this situation is all that I can bear. This progress one day and the next like nothing happened is way over the top for me. I am so pissed right now it not even funny. I went out to day and bought her some underwear from Victoria's Secret. We were talking and she said that she went to buy herself some underwear and didn't know her sizes because since we've been together I always bought her undies. So I sneak off and buy her some Vicky's Secret, and some Chocolate from Godiva's at the mall. She see's me come in with it and asks me is that for me? I said of course! She said ooh I didn't know if it was for a girlfriend or something I don't know about. This aggrevated the crap out of me because I'm busting my butt trying to plan A and get across the gravity of my sincerity, and that was like a slap in the face to me! OK you don't want to be married no more that's one thing but this whole BS routine rubbing my nose in it while she benefits from the fruits of my pain is draining love units out of my bank faster then crap through a goose! Right now I want to say the HELL with it all. She came in from work last night, and didn't even have the courtesy to say goodnight. She seems distracted to me and I'm starting to think there is more to this equation then what meets the eye. I don't need to be here to suffer. I don't need her rubbing my nose in it. I can be out the house, and be just as miserable, at least then is just pure misery, not misery one day and jubilation the next, and then back to misery.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I growing very tired of the roller coaster routine here! We had what I thought was a break through. I go away for two days, and it's like we are back at step 1.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sorry you've had a bad day. I'm going to give you my take here. Call it Steve's(me not Steve H) corollary to Harley's theorem if you like math [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. Hang with me while I give an example.As you know, Dr. Harley talks about making love bank deposits. Say your wife needs 500 LBUs (Love Bank Units) to be deposited in order to be in love with you. You are at perhaps -150 when you realize you have a real problem and start making deposits. You see very few results from you first few hundred LBUs deposited. The temptation is to think that nothing is happening. However, the deposits do have an effect even when you don't see it. When you get to 350 units (arbitrary figure) she starts to at least like you somewhat, enough to make some difference at times, but not enough to be in love.This is where my corollary comes in. Harley basically regards a deposit as a deposit which has a set value. If you don't make any for a while you keep the same balance if you don't love bust. You don't get interest and it doesn't evaporate. I think that when you're close to the 500 LBU threshhold something different happens. You've been making deposits, you make another one for 25 LBUs to get to 375. You've become a pretty good customer of the Love Bank and just made another deposit. In the moment, she doesn't check your balance, just feels good about another deposit. In the good feeling of the moment she treats you like a customer with 600 LBUs on deposit. Later, she records the deposit and does the math. You're at 375, still short of the 500.You got treated temporarily like a customer with a 500 LBU balance. You didn't really have it, you just got a taste of what you're not really entitled to yet. You did get credit for your deposit, you are at 375. You're not really there yet, but you're getting there. Just like Harley says, your deposits didn't evaporate, you just thought they did because you were misled into thinking you'd gone over the magic 500 mark when you hadn't.Don't be misled, though. Those moments when you get treated like you have do have 500 mean you are getting closer.Does this sound farfetched? Well, I'm a BS not a WS, but I'm in your wife's position. My wife had really depleted my love bank badly. I basically let her know that she was in danger of losing me if she didn't change, and she has been trying.She's made some deposits, her balance in my love bank has been going up, but I'm not in love. However, a couple of times lately after she's made a deposit I've found myself feeling pretty good for awhile. I'm talking about a deposit no different from the ones she has been making, just starting from a higher Love Bank balance. However, after a while I stop feeling good, tally up her balance and I'm not in love. I feel again the anger at the things she's done and the frustrations I have with her. It's like she'd never made any deposits.The key is, she has made deposits and is getting closer to the magic amount. Right now, though, her balance is only high enough to get a temporary effect. In time that will change IF SHE DOESN'T GIVE UP.I suspect the same is happening with your situation.I hope you'll hang in there--you really haven't been at this all that long. Keep up the good work, vent here not at your wife.Hope this helps.Steve

impulsive,Maybe you should change your name to IMPATIENT. Try to think about things from the other side for a bit. How tired do you think your wife became living with you the way things were? As you described the situation, it didn't sound like you were being very pleasant to live with for a long while there either. I often wonder why some people think they can behave very badly, and then just say "I'm sorry" and it will all be over.Let me explain something very simple about withdrawal. It takes steady effort to tear down those walls! I wondered why on earth you thought being apart for a couple of days would be helpful, when it is actually just the opposite. You need to be together as much as you possibly can. Have you actually read the Harley material? That's one of the reasons they emphasize NOT moving out except as a last resort. Being apart allows the withdrawing spouse to harden towards their partner again. In other words, you make some steps forward, and then lose momentum by not being there to constantly reinforce it.In my opinion, the Victoria's Secret thing was a little too strong, though the chocolates were a good idea. When she made the comment about the underwear, you could have offered to take her shopping, or told her that you hoped to have the chance to buy her some lingerie someday soon.When a spouse is withdrawn (from my own experience here), doing something that comes on too strong makes them withdraw from reach a little further. A withdrawn spouse needs to be coaxed to come closer, not lassoed!You sort of need to face the fact that you are in for a long ride, like it or not. Sure, you can decide to just give up and get off, and if your marriage isn't worth the effort to you maybe that is the best choice. I can also tell you this, if you make comments to your wife like the ones you made in your last post, she might be the one to jump off and you will have no choice in the matter. I mentioned this to you previously, but it is true. It took a while for your marriage to get in trouble and it will take just as long to get out of it. I wish it were easier, but it isn't.Your wife is not going to do everything you want. That's life. You are not doing everything she wants either. That's life too.Peppermint

Stillhers thanks for the clarification. I appreciate that scenario however I need a graph. I need to know what my balance is today. I need to know what my balance was a month ago, and I would like to know how many LBU I get for every kind act. This in the dark is crushing. Peppermint I hear you lound and clear. It's not that I just want to say I'm sorry and act like nothing happened. I just want a opportunity to show with deeds that I've changed and it's not lip service. If I screw up or go back to the old me, I wouldn't bother her another day in my life, because nobody deserves to live the way I made our lives. I would like to get of ground zero! I would like to go forward even slowly if we were moving. I don't expect a overnight miracle, but why stay in limbo? Does she want to stay where she is now forever? You can never steal 2nd base if your scared to take your foot off of 1st base! It would be easier for me if I just stopped lovebusting and stopped trying to make Love Bank deposits. Is this ok? I mean that way I don't get my hopes so high right? Next week she goes to California for a week. So what happens then? We go forward for a week and then backwards again? I've read in the Harley's material ususally after one spouse withdraws the other one soon follows. Well I see why. It's a natural reaction. There has to be some type positve feedback from the other side. I'm a very results oriented person. It goes along with my entreprenuerial, salesperson personality. If I can't see progress then it feel like a waste of time. Just like it feels permanantly over to her I feel like I'm pissing in the wind, and my leg is getting wet! I just want to go to sleep for a couple of months, and hopefully everything will feel better after I wake up. I would not screw up again if someone gave me $2,000,000.00 dollars to. I feel like withdrawing and maybe I'm impatient but I have given it 100%, once a person has done everything they can to make things better and they don't get better. What can you do?

Impulsive,Perhaps you ARE giving it 100% right now, but your wife doesn't see it yet. And how long have you been giving the 100%, especially in comparison to the amount of time you basically gave 0%?The fact is that it doesn't take much time or effort to screw everything up, but it takes a lot more work and time to make everything right. Answer this HONESTLY- how long have things been going badly in your marriage? How long have you REALLY been working to try to make things right?You are honestly expecting too much too soon. It is totally unrealistic to think that once things start improving there will never be any setbacks. Your main complaint seems to be that your wife isn't giving you enough positive feedback. What kind of feedback were you giving her when your marriage was falling apart? What kind are you honestly giving her now?Even if you are doing everything perfectly right, the feelings you want her to have are not going to reappear overnight. It will take a long time to repair the damage that has been done to your relationship. It might even take years.As to what will happen when the two of you are apart for a week, my best guess is that she will be very cool to you when the two of you see each other again. The wall of withdrawal will be reinforced during the week apart, and you will have to start tearing it down again.Impulsive, after I agreed to stay with my husband I felt that I was doing a lot just by staying with him and allowing him the CHANCE to repair the damage that he had done. Your wife probably feels the same way. It was very hard to be nice and cooperative to someone who had brought me so much unhappiness. It was very difficult not to scream and throw things and tell him how much I hated what he had done to our marriage. Sometimes I did those things even though I tried not to.Your wife is not happy either. She would NEVER have chosen this for her life. You need to really try to see things from her perspective. You seem to be doing things for your wife only because you believe they will bring the result YOU want. Try doing nice things for her because you want to be good to her and because they will make HER feel better, not because you hope for benefits for yourself right now. Believe me, the benefits WILL come for both of you. But maybe not today or tomorrow.It seems that in every marriage there are times when one spouse has to work harder and sacrifice more than the other spouse. Your wife has had to do that in the past, and now you must do it. Your wife doesn't have the desire or energy right now, and if YOU don't take the initiative you will both end up with a failed relationship.I really don't think that is what you want, but maybe I am wrong.Peppermint

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I went out to day and bought her some underwear from Victoria's Secret.Dude, you called for a play from the sidelines, we sent in a fullback up the middle, ball control, low risk play, and you ran a triple reverse with three laterals!She took the lingerie as sexual pressure, no doubt. After your nice talk with her and a good week of LB deposits, you have to learn to savor your successes a little more, rest on your laurels. I'm at the point where when I make a lovebank coup, I almost want to hide, like, not give myself the chance to screw it up. Read back over the advice youhave gotten here. It WILL be a roller coaster. She WILL test you by being cold or b@$chy. There WILL be setbacks. These are all OPPORTUNITIES.Mayube her remark about you having a girlfriend was good natured joking...how did you react, precisely? One bad moment like that can erase a month of deposits, you have to have DISCIPLINE.Your comment about thinking there was something more going on bothered me. Do you now suspect an OM?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by StillHers: In the good feeling of the moment she treats you like a customer with 600 LBUs on deposit. Later, she records the deposit and does the math. You're at 375, still short of the 500. You got treated temporarily like a customer with a 500 LBU balance. You didn't really have it, you just got a taste of what you're not really entitled to yet.LOL....I loved this post. I spent a lot of time talking to Steve Harley about "how" my W would fall back in love, whether it would be in one fell weepy swoop, or whether it would be gradual, and sort of sneak up on her, I suspect it is the latter, and I am pretty close to the line. But she definitley has been acting more like she likes me. I remember back in the summer, one of the things that woke me up was a post here from somebody, it may have been KAM, who said "hey, you have to realize, she probably hated your guts until recently" Yow, that was tough to absorb, but it was maybe correct...but it put things in perspective, and humbled me to keep my head down and grind away with Plan A. impulsive, you reading here?The other thing to remember here is that there is a NECESSARY element of time, in order for the withdrawn spouse to heal and trust that the new Plan Aer is for real. It is almost like there is a monthly maximum of 10o units, or something. You can't craft a 500 point mega Lovebank deposit and get there in one day. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 04, 2001).]

impulsive,The equilibrium of your marriage is disturbed. Both of you are swinging back and forth in cycles, which may or may not coincide at any given time. Your challenge is to damp those cycles and rebuild steadily. Lavish gifts, especially those oriented toward love and sex, don't do it (or if they do, you're teaching the wrong lesson--yes, she has some things to learn too). A certain kind of man who fears abandonment by the wife will go out and buy the gifts. This article may show you which kind of man you really are (when faced with this particular crisis): <A HREF="http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp</A> You can't observe and predict her rollercoaster very well if you are simultaneously experiencing your own. Give yourself a break--stay even-tempered.

Throughly frustrated last night with the roller coaster ride my wife and I had a enjoyable night. Laying in her bed massaging her. We talked about the relationship a little and she said that we have without a doubt made progress but she is feeling guilty that I seem very impatient. I didn't say to much I just listened. We woke up the next morning and she said a couple of things to me and I gave her 1 word answers and she had a angry outburst. She yelled at me that I am very unfair that I did so much damage to our relationship and now a month later I'm getting myself together and I want everything to be better overnight. I said i don't want everything to be better overnight I just want to make progress. She said it's right back to you everything is centered around you. Then she said God, "I'm Horny" I tried to ignore her. Then she said again, "Why, Am I so Horny?" Then she said Do you want to make love no strings attached? I think I had my clothes off before she finished the sentence. We had unbelievable passionate sex. Afterwards we both layed there in a afterglow. It was totally unexpected, and very gratifiying at the same time. She said I think you just had a little lack of sex frustration going. So I learned a lesson about impatience AGAIN. But where does this put us now. I'm taking no strings attached as a code word for she just needed to get off without the baggage of a relationship. So I guess I'm closer but still far away. Comments please>

Does she mean "no strings"? Of course not. What she means is, no premature conclusion that everything is now "normal" again, or that you are entitled to ask for sex. If she wanted "no strings" sex ... well that's a one-night stand with someone you don't even know. But making love to you is something "big" from her to you and she knows it. Mere thanks from you are not enough. Thank your lucky stars that emotional withdawal doesn't shut down her sex drive, and that she still basically trusts you ... it gives you occasional opportunities like this. So what do you do? Something nice. Something small. Something that is not "pressure". A nice card, or take her out to dinner, or a few flowers from the street vendor. It's time for positive conditioning. Think of any negative consequences that she might see as flowing from here "moment of weakness" and see that she does not experience them, only swift reward.

Impulsive,Well, I guess it is good that you connected physically [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But did you note and absorb what she told you?1. Give her time. Keep it up, you are doing well overall, but she needs time.2. Murder your Taker. Gag him, bag him and stick him in the basement. Withdrawn spouses will always think that the changes are solely in order to manipulate them into meeting your needs. My W said the same thing "this is just about sex" You have to take that card away, and you do it by putting out no pressure on your needs.3. Your snide AM sulk got you the sex, but it also was a big set back to your Plan A. You have to be consistent, giving, supportive.C'mon, dude, suck it up. Show some discipline, here. You were doing so well.

I KNOW MIKE, I KNOW!!! It's just so hard! I felt like we took a positve step, but I also felt the negative step back on the plan A. We talk on the way to me dropping her off to work and she said that, I'm at a place where I'm thinking let's make it work, and she is at a place where she is tired of thinking like Is this the real deal this time? Why am I always having to be forgiving in this relationship? She says that she's just so scared that the changes will only last for a little while. She is getting frustrated with me checking in occasionally asking her if she changed her mind. She says that I'm making progress but my impatience shows that I'm still selfish, and it's all about me. I don't know what to do. I plan A, she intiaties the relationship questions I answer with I love you and I hope you let me show you how much I love you one day, and here we go again she takes it like I'm pressuring her. I don't know how to be loving and supportive, show affection without coming across like I'm hopelessly in love with her. I'm trying to plan A and be passive but my passive comes across as sulking. Back to my football analogy. I feel like I fumbled but I picked up the ball and scrambled for the 1st down. Could someone give me a typical plan A day? I think I'm missing this plan A thing somehow, because my plan A is coming across like a fart in church! I'm not trying to be hard headed or stubborn, I'm really trying my hardest but I'm definetely falling short. I'm still stuck between being happy go lucky and distant and quiet. I'm really struggling with the middle ground. When I act happy go lucky she act that way and I can't take the lack of connection. When I act distant she get's mad at me for acting selfish and distant.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: She says that she's just so scared that the changes will only last for a little while.So what do you learn from this?She is getting frustrated with me checking in occasionally asking her if she changed her mind.So what change are you contemplating with this feedback?I don't know what to do.<slap> You don't know how fortunate you are, to have a spouse giving you the map to the landmine like this. I've been working in the dark for a year, with a wife that wouldn't say "ouch" if she cut her hand off. Listen to your W! Hear her concerns. And take the logical action. As far as how to "act" you have to be considerate, supportive, and avoid lovebusting, however she defines it. Right now, typically, she defines it as relationship talks and pressure on your needs. Act like you are on a first date...try to be interesting, amusing, fun, courteous, thoughtful....don't take her for granted, don't impose your needs on her....This may be her coming into conflict a little, and that is good and necessary. She is probing the new you. Pass the test.

Well, I failed the test miserably. I'm so ashamed of myself. I was so close she was growing to like me as a person, she broke down and made love to me. She was really getting into the new me, and then I messed it all up by diving right into a relationship conversation, and then accusing her of hiding something in her email box, then she went out of her way to explain I was wrong, I walked away and pouted like a 5 yr. old. All the Love Busting she hated, came out in one swoop. She laid down today and said this takes so much energy out of me you have no idea. Then once again plan A popped up in my mind. In just 10 minutes I destroyed a solid month of misery and pain wrenching plan A because I wasn't getting my way. She said you know? Just go back to the way you were last week. Focused, mellow and so nice to be around. Then she broke my heart. She said you know I thought having sex would make things beter it seems to have made you worse. I've read on this thread that this set back is going to be even harder to come back from because she was testing me and I failed miserably. Is it to late to start from scratch and start Plan A all over again? What am I up against now? Did I blow my one chance at saving this thing or did I just make my life that much harder? She said I'm draining her emotionally. She says that she wants to go back to the way things were earlier this month, and we can have sex from time to time, because she doesn't want to go anywhere else but she needs me to stay focused on the finances and less on saving the marriage because it's making her crazy because I'm getting so frustrated, and unfocused. What do I do now? Can someone please give me a Damage Assessment please?

It's only as damaging as you allow it to be. Your #1 problem is relationship talks where you feel compelled to press her. Your #2 problem is that you need to stay focused on the $$$ end of things, and the other aspects of being the photonegative of the person you were in the marriage.Your #3 problem is that physical closeness seems to trigger your #1 problem. Your #4 problem is overcoming that bad history of yours.All can be handled. But you keep rushing things, and missing that emotional even keel that you need. And while you say the too-happy stance becomes your problem, I assure you that if you go there, it will become a problem to her after a time, so middle-of-the-road is the way to go. But when you slip back a little, don't panic and don't decide that all has been lost (no matter what she has said). She's not saying the same really bad things that she was, so you've obviously been moving in the right direction. Eddie Murphy's moviestar character in Bowfinger was terribly troubled by a desire to expose himself to the Laker Girls. His Scientology-like church's head (Terrence Stamp) counseled him personally, turning his name, "Kit", into an acronym for "Keep It Together". That's what you need to do; Keep It Together (nevermind that Kit eventually did it, and was caught in the act by a waiting camera crew).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She says that she wants to go back to the way things were earlier this month, and we can have sex from time to time, because she doesn't want to go anywhere else but she needs me to stay focused on the finances and less on saving the marriage because it's making her crazy because I'm getting so frustrated, and unfocused. What do I do now? Can someone please give me a Damage Assessment please?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't let US tell you what to do, let HER. She just did. She says don't push the relationship stuff, mellow out, address the finances. Well, you and I know that Financial Support is one of her major ENs, so by focusing on that you are actually working on your marriage. The occasional lovemaking, I think, may help you stay on an even keel...it did with me. Don't punish yourself, imp, nobody has ever pulled off a perfect Plan A, imp...there are always setbacks and frustrations and blunders. Your W wants peace, safety, security....give her that, and a lot of the problems will go away. You may want to consider some sort of anti-anxiety meds if you keep boiling over and lovebusting. Talk to your doctor. It is important for you to get under control at this stage.

yes, I think control is the operative word at this point. She is very emotional right now. Our little blow up today led to her feeling completely drained today, and she vented by bedtime by saying she sometimes feels suicidal, but she would never act because of the kids. That made me feel like a real winner. Drive a beautiful, loving woman to suicide. Wow, when I graduated high school I wasn't voted most likely to drive his second wife to suicide. I'm starting my plan A from scratch tommorrow and I'm not deviating one bit. I think I can pull off the perfect plan A from here, I mean I've been butchering it for a month now. What kind of mediaction would help me at this point. I don't have a family doctor so what do i do look one up in the phone book , and say I need meds? Thanks everyone for your unbelievable support. I know I'm somewhat frustrating because I listen to advice, and I know the right thing to do but I sometimes allow my emotions to get the best of me. Well, she hasn't asked for a divorce, and she hasn't asked me to move out she just says she wants to be happy, and no pressure. So I can do that. No relationship talks, nno pressure, Just financial empowerment, and positivety!

Hey Impulsive,I think that you are on the right track. Believe it or not, you do have a few things working for you:1)You are both still under the same roof. Might not seem like much, but at least you can work on the things that you have been lacking at, and she gets to see these things.2)There is no OM involved3)You know what you want to do to save your marriageStay positive. I wish I could give you more advice then that, but considering that my marriage is crumbling daily, regardless what I do, I don't have much insight. I wish I was where you are now. When you start getting down, Ask yourself one very important question: How much do I love My wife. Look deep within yourself for this. From what you have written, I believe that you love her dearly. This is plenty of incentive to continue the path that you are on, and make everyday count. There will come a day that she will fall in love with you again. Just keep working on it. My prayers are with you. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

"When one's expectations are reduced to zero, one really appreciates everything one does have." Stephen Hawking Your reaction to sex is similar to what my H used to do. Every hope, wish and expectation he ever had of me came roaring out of the bag after SF and his Taker would go on a rampage. Any wonder why I have spent years in sexual aversion?

Griz, you just hang in there and things will brighten up sooner or later, I know it does not seem like it. Kareena you are absolutely right she gave me a little sex after 34 days and I lost my mind. Considering I haven't went that long without since my 16th birthday, I certainly lost perspective. My taker came out and kicked the crap out of my giver. Now my wife is sitting back saying boy, maybe I shouldn't have given him any. Well people I'm on a new journey starting today. Super Top Secret Plan AAA, I have my taker gaged, and duct taped in the trunk of my car, and I forgot how to talk about relationship, and feeling sorry for myself is a memory. I'm moving forward and refuse to be side tracked anymore by emotions. I need to ignore my emotions and focus on the mental discipline neccassary to turn this boat around in the other direction. The biggest challenge is going to be that she leaves for California for a week and I have to stay on even ground because the prospect of her leaving makes me want to establish some type committment from her, but I know I can't so I'm relaxing that was just my taker mumbling something stupid.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I don't have a family doctor so what do i do look one up in the phone book , and say I need meds? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, I would be more concerned about your wife talking to someone, if she is having suicidal thoughts.

Impulsive,Mike is right again. But it is very hard to question a wife's mental state. And statements like wife made can be used to manipulate you. My XW once asked me if I "want[ed] [her] to start cutting [her]self again or kill [her]self." It was a devastatingly effective tool to paralyze me from doing anything to keep trying to save the marriage. But it shouldn't have been.If I had it to do over again, I think my tack would be to say that I loved her very much, I would never want that to happen, and since feelings about me were part of what was driving it, I couldn't be the one to talk to about it. But then I would be insistent that she talk to a doctor or at least a close friend (hopefully, a different friend than the one who is undermining your marriage) or relative (ditto). I think there are natural desires to deny to yourself that you are any part of the problem, and also moments where you want to take all of it on your shoulders. As with almost everything else, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Don't expect her to see the truth now. But do expect that she will talk to someone other than you about those feelings, regardless of whether she feels close to acting on them. This may be the lever you need to get into counseling. It is certainly a red flag. And I think it is one of the ultimate tests of a marriage, because there are extraordinary pressures on you now to go in all sorts of unproductive directions. I ran the question "How can I help a person who is suicidal" on ask.com. This was the key link that came up: <A HREF="http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.afsp.org/about/whattodo.htm</A> [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 07, 2001).]

The last couple of days have been pretty quiet, All of my energy has been directed toward no love busting, no relationship conversations, and earning income. I thought I was coming across calm and mellow, just before she left for work today, she asked me very seriously, "Have, I done anything to upset you that I don't know about?" I said why of course not, she said you just seem very quiet, like you only talk when spoken to. This may be a lovebuster, she always hated when I get ultra-quiet. I don't be trying to be quiet it just assures me I won't give in to my impulsive nature and start saying or doing something that would jeopardize my plan A somemore. I know that fun loving, and the first date persona is more attractive, but I really struggle with that because it's like a trigger. The more fun and closeness I feel I get sucked into I love you, and can we make this work, conversations. Same with the back rubs and affection. Am I jeopardizing or compromising my efforts by being quiet and non affectionate? Is it ok that I'm this way because it makes the probability of me talking relationship and pressuring her very, very low.

It looks like you've been right in the groove. If it took her two days to ask the question, you might be lying a little low, but she may also just be seeing the contrast to your usual ebullience.I'd tell her something to the effect of "I'm sorry if I'm not paying enough attention to you. I'm focused on my work right now, but I need to remember to make time for you when you want it." That lets her know you're simply turning more serious, and puts the ball in her court for whatever other needs she wants met. With practice, you'll be able to get closer without overstepping. Meanwhile, she'll be opening more toward you.She needs 5 hours of quality time a week, minimum. Try to give that without uninvited physicality, or letting the conversation turn toward long-term commitment questions. In time, you'll even get the hang of "no strings" sex, which is apparently a need of hers so powerful it can override whatever bad things she feels about the relationship. Again, for the most part you project that photonegative image of your former self, but if she's looking for something specific in you that she likes, you can let it out of its cage for just the amount of time it takes to satisfy her need.As for that old depression question, you might look at <A HREF="http://www.copewithlife.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.copewithlife.com</A> [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 08, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: "Have, I done anything to upset you that I don't know about?" I said why of course not, she said you just seem very quiet, like you only talk when spoken to.Yeah, I've been there too. Sometimes you follow the golden rule, and when you can't think of anything nice to say, it comes off as surly or offended. My W said I was whipping between sulking and "walking on eggshells" and both of them soaked her in guilt, because she felt the blame for my unhappiness. I'm sure that is part of what you W is feeling.This part takes a lot of strength. Again, I think the date analogy works well. If this was an early date with a girl you wanted to impressive, you wouldn't be lapsing into silence or dissolving into teary lovey-doveys. You would suck it up and be fun, make interesting conversation, be a fun date.....MAKE YOURSELF ATTRACTIVE Am I jeopardizing or compromising my efforts by being quiet and non affectionate?I think we are getting to the point where you can answer a lot of your own questions, young jedi. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 09, 2001).]

Well we are back to the bed issue again. I talked to her last night and told her that my entire body is sore like after a intense workout from sleeping on the couch for the last 40 days or so. She invited me to sleep in the bed reluctantly. I got the feeling that she really didn't want me there so I told her I don't feel comfortable sleeping somewhere I'm not wanted. Before you say STUPID get in the bed, understand that on several occassions she has mentioned that she has grown to like sleeping alone, and that before she started feeling sorry for me she had no desire for me to sleep in the bed. It is not a matter of pride, like she thinks it is, it's a matter of feeling like you only got asked to go to the dance because you had a broken leg, and the homecoming king's mom is friends with your mom so you get asked to go not because he really likes you but because of the symapthy factor. Can any of you girls relate?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I got the feeling that she really didn't want me there so I told her I don't feel comfortable sleeping somewhere I'm not wanted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm starting to really feel sorry for your wife [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You guilt her into inviting you into bed, which is what you wanted by complaining about your back, then you rejected her invitation because it was coerced....by you, of course. She must be wondering what she has to do to get it right.C'mon, quit setting up lovebuster opportunities.

Impulsive, you are treading on the most dangerous ground. The really huge blowup in my now-long-gone marriage was prompted by a dispute over who slept in what bed.You need to be cool here. The alternative is Chernobyl.

I was in the bed when she got home from work. I woke up and started to massage her. She resisted at first. She said that my massages were to expensive. Meaning that she enjoyed them but they cost a price later. I told her that would not be the case and she allowed me to give her a full body massage. During the massage she became aroused, (not my intention of course [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

and we embarked upon a two hour sexual journey that took us places we haven't been in years. We fell asleep spooning in each other arms. When we woke up she asked me did I take advantage of her sexually last night or did she just have the most beautiful wet dream of her life? I told her the former. She said WOW! Thank you she hadn't had a orgasm that strong and forceful in years. We had a very light conversation. She said that her intention was to come home and tell me that if I didn't come back to the bed she and the kids were moving out. She said that she felt that the roller coaster ride of my emotions was way to much for her. She said that the night that we were watching T.V. in the bed, and she invited me to stay was the day that she said to her self Wow! maybe these changes are real. She said she felt closer to me that day then she had in years. However when I got out the bed she said it all came crashing down on her. She said that everything can be going fine. We start talking she'll say something I take as negative, and I withdraw and that makes her feel sick to her stomach, and gives her immediate headaches, and she feels like crap. She says that I have way to much emotion running through me and it's emotionally bankrupts her. So the bottom line is my plan A worked but I sabatoged it by being impatient and prideful. We decided that I move back in the bedroom, but I don't put any sexual pressure or relationship pressure on her, and that I keep focused on the positive changes I made and we take one day at a time. No relationship talks and no MOOD SWINGS! I've come to learn that the mood swings are as big love busters as the financial, trust, and attractive spouse issues. I finished HNHN and I came to the conclusion that over the course of our marriage I forsaked 9 out of the 10 of her main emotional needs. So the lesson learned is that there are consequences to actions and the type of pain I inflicted did not happen in a vacuum. She felt like I thought just because I changed I wanted her to put her feelings behind my feelings of fixing the mess, and that was exactly how she felt she got in the mess we are in by always putting her feeling on the back burner. So me dealing with my issues of insecurity, impatience and wanting a quick solution is paramount in us repairing our marriage. She didn't want sex at first because in the past we would have problems but we would talk and then have sex and then act like the problems disappeared. I'm learning alot about her needs and thoughts, but more importantly I'm learning about how my needs and thoughts are impacting on our future and her perception of me and us. So after everything is said and done, I guess I'm in alot better shape then I was 6 weeks ago. I just have to be patient and don't self destruct. Is this a accurate assessment?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:Okay, I had to go be by myself in the bathroom after reading your post [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It sounds like a breakthrough, impy buddy.She said that her intention was to come home and tell me that if I didn't come back to the bed she and the kids were moving out.Interesting...both that she was ready to take it to Defcon 4, AND that it was over that issue. On the one hand disturbing that her thoughts would include that alternative, on the other hand, it is nice that she feels strongly about getting you back in bed. However when I got out the bed she said it all came crashing down on her.Yeah, I think everyone here saw that one. Remember to consciously accept and reward any effort by her to reach out in the future. I think it takes a lot for her to summon the strength to reach out...to get the hand slapped is devastating.No relationship talks and no MOOD SWINGS!Yep. Although....you tell me, but it does seem like this was a pretty productive talk. What I miss in my own marital recovery is that when we were in formal counseling, once a week we could take each other's temperatures, and I learned a lot in those sessions about her likes and dislikes. The feedback was important. So, even though I've been harping on NO relationship talks....maybe, since things are getting back on track, she might be amenable to some sort of scheduled time once a week or every two weeks to give you feedback and make sure you stay on track. If you decide to suggest this to her, I would make sure that she understands that this is to be a talk focused on HER needs and how you are doing fulfilling them, and to discuss and lovebusting you might have done. Maybe this is a concept that has to wait a little while...but I was struck by this thought when I read this comment from you: ""I'm learning alot about her needs and thoughts, but more importantly I'm learning about how my needs and thoughts are impacting on our future and her perception of me and us.""I finished HNHN and I came to the conclusion that over the course of our marriage I forsaked 9 out of the 10 of her main emotional needs.Before you have an aneurysm trying to address 9 unmet needs all at once, remember that not everyone has all ten...and Harley recommends identifying 5 and initially targetting he top 3. All-in-all, it sounds like you are doing very well in such a short period of time. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Mike

It's funny how things can go from great to so so over night. I'm in the bed again and things are going o.k. but the lack of affection and connection is frustrating. Mike how do you deal with the lack of affection and connection? It's like every time I hug her or touch her she has to force herself to endure it. She doesn't want to pull away but she doesn't seem to enjoy the hug or touch. I torn between stop showing affection or just persist and block out my perception of her obvious discomfort. Has any one else experienced this situation?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: It's like every time I hug her or touch her she has to force herself to endure it.Has any one else experienced this situation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep, that is a dsrag, and my W does do that on occasion still. I remember that behavior from her was what drove me to marital counseling...she was very deep into withdrawal, and had a hard time even maintaining a courtesy smile.One of the things that sort of helped me during this was when I noticed that she would occasionally snarl at one of the kids when they were seeking affection....and, damn, I know she loves them [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But when she was busy or harassed, she doesn't like the being cuddled. Moms get an awful lot of handling, and sometimes they just need their space. In your case, you are back in the marital bed, and she may be supersensitive right now to her space. You should probably tiptoe your way in...if you are getting the cold shoulder, take that as sign that you need to play it cool a little (without being perceived as sulking or angry). Let her come to you.

While I wouldn't offer to leave the bedroom, I would take steps to deal with her aversion to affection.Now that she has what she said she wanted (you to return to the bedroom), she finds it less attractive. It's an ugly little dynamic for her, because affection with you leads to all the things that she has said are problematic, while lack of affection from you leads to her concluding that you are living as brother and sister ... blah, blah, blah (should I be hipper hear and use Yada?). So she has narrowed the range of behavior from you that she finds comfortable, and it's a tougher job for you to remain in that range ... and the range shifts frequently up or down. And likely, trying to communicate too much about it with her ... becomes problematic in its own way. Yuck. So, what you need is greater sensitivity to her nonverbal cues. And a better sense of where you stand with her. Keep track of when you last reported a good result in your business. For that matter, be sure that you're keeping good track of your business and reporting it to her ... to the extent you have determined that it is a need or want of hers. You can keep setting an upbeat tone with upbeat news ... so long as it's real.

Ok, This is by far the most difficult thing I have ever had to do in my entire life! I think I'm at the point where I have to disengage. I think I'm way to close to this situation emotionally. She is on a totally different street. I'm getting increasingly frustrated from the roller coaster ride. If I disengage and shift my focus totally maybe then I will be able to save my marriage. I think that my constant vigilence is counter productive. I still love her to death. I still want to save my marriage. I don't and am not going to move out, but I need to get on her street. Her street is back off, stop trying to fix the marriage, and work on myself while she works on herself. She is not feeling the way I'm feeling and that is frustrating the heck out of me. It's a impossible situation. I'm not giving up. I still have the same long term goal, but my immediate focus is a little different. I think by backing away I will give her the space and independence she says she wants and needs to see things from a non pressure, objective perspective. Does this make sense to anyone or am I way off track?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I think that my constant vigilence is counter productive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Blatant scrutiny is counterproductive. But nothing is more helpful than mindfulness and sensitivity. Don't disengage, but do pay attention to what she wants and doesn't want at any given time. And remember what was missing--that needs to be kept onstage, front and center. And whatever was abundant, perhaps beyond satiety and all the way to nausea, needs to be pushed to the background and well out of the spotlight. Is it "walking on eggshells"? Well, it sure feels like that until you either get used to it or it's not necessary anymore. Likely, there will be a bit of both. You'll be more skilled and comfortable reading her, and she'll be looser with her thoughts, feelings and actions because she'll be back in intimacy. Keep to a moderate course in everything but the things that were previously extreme. Those latter items swap places until W gets back into intimacy.

impulsive,I'm relatively new to the board, but I've read through your whole story. One thing you mentioned gives me a little cause for concern. You said you W had a rough childhood - sexually abused. My question for you is this. Has she *ever* been through therapy regarding those issues?Without boring you, here's my background. My W announced in early December (out of the blue) that she didn't want to be married any more. She had an emotional affair briefly in November which I had discovered, but I now see that as a symptom, not a cause of her desire for flight. She told me she didn't want to be married to anyone, period. She withdrew, became depressed... etc.I leave a lot to be desired as a husband - we have been together for 12 years, married 9. I'm 35, she's 30. I discovered Harley in mid-december and have been working on the same books you are. I have been able to make her feel a lot better about being with me because I have made some major improvements in my attitude and behavior. My W seemed like she was having a MLC too - all the signs were there - she was freaked out about turning 30, didn't like her career, felt she had "lost herself"...However... she also revealed to me, after about 6 weeks, that for the past 2-3 years she would have flashbacks to her child abuse (she was sexually abused by her father between the ages of 8 and 12). She began to associate sex, and me, with her past abuse and that was one of the main reasons she felt she could no longer be married. She was so confused about her feelings for me... again, due to the memories that she had repressed. Repressed or suppresed memoried of child abuse does not mean that the victim does not acknowledge something happened. But it does mean that they never fully experienced the hurt that they received, and this can manifest itself over time and result in unpredictable behavior, including changes in personality etc.All I can say is DON'T assume that because your W has acknowledged abuse in her past that she is "over it". I became aware of my W's past shortly after we married, and I thought she was dealing with it. But acknowledging it does not mean accepting it. My W is now in therapy for her childhood issues. Things with us are very difficult right now, because she is unable to get too close to me. She's afraid to "trust" me, because prior to me, her father betrayed her trust completely. These kind of scars can fester for years, and resurface during traumatic times.I'm not here to tell you what to do - just recommending that you be mindful of the possibility that your W's history *may* play a major role in what is now happening.How can you tell? Well, your W has to trust you with her feelings... her most private thoughts. To do that, she must feel unpressured, and be assured that you are "safe" to talk to. That you won't respond by invalidating her feelings and trying to minimize her issues.I know a quick fix to this looks appealing to you. I haven't had intimate relations with my W in almost 4 months (we used to, 3 times a week, for 12 years). Yet while I, too, get frustrated and take one step back for every two forwards, I have realized during my more rational moments that a slow, long term healing both of the past, and the relationship, is likely to create a much more solid, long lasting future.Keep your hopes alive, take it slow. I know all this seemed to hit you out of the blue, but it didn't for your W. She felt the way she did for a long time, but didn't tell you in ways you could understand. So for her, this feeling has been here for a long time. Don't try to get it back all at once... build slowly, carefully, and if you believe her past issues may be a factor, help her root out whether that is the case, and get her the help she needs.Best wishes,JD

I have come to a point where I can no longer gravel, and beg, and neglect my basic emotional needs for the purpose of saving something she does not want to save. If she was saying "I want to be married but, I need reassuring from you." I could plan a until the next leap year. However this is not the situation. I'm being loving and caring, compassionate, and focused on being the type of husband I should have been for the last 6 years. The issue is now that no matter how perfect I'm being now she doesn't care! She doesn't want to be married. All she wants to do is get her finances together, and get herself totally self reliant, and go her separate way. While I'm plan A ing, she focused on Wow, he is so nice now, I bet he'll make someone a great husband. I have to live for me and my kids. I have to maintain these changes for a lifetime. As much as I love her I can't make her love me. I respect all of the Harley's concepts but Plan A is awful close to trying to force someone to love you. I have never believed in that, nor do I now. There is a thin line between taking repsponsibility for your actions and being a damn fool for someone. I've grown and learned from my mistakes, and I'm a better man for it. I just can't continue sitting here and hoping she turns around one day. The fact that no one has commented on is what happens when you Plan A for 4 years and she never turns around? You plan A for 2 yars and some Prince Charming sweeps her off her feet. You have just wasted 2 or 4 years neglecting your needs to get through to someone who doesn't want to be gotten through to. Life is way to short for that! I love her, and I won't do anything to destroy what's left of our marriage, but I also won't continue to bend over backwards trying to fight for a marriage she does not want. You can say what you want but, I believe it takes two to save a marriage. If you have two willing participates ready to work towards and sacrifice towards a common goal then anything is possible. Plan A is a low percentage, long shot, because there is only one party actively trying to save the marriage. I had self esteem issues during my depression while I was neglecting her needs. That is what got us here. Plan A does not help my self esteem issues. Constantly graveling, begging, and feeling neglected in order to secure someone elses approval is not acceptable in my life any longer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Plan A is a low percentage, long shot, because there is only one party actively trying to save the marriage. I had self esteem issues during my depression while I was neglecting her needs. That is what got us here. Plan A does not help my self esteem issues. Constantly graveling, begging, and feeling neglected in order to secure someone elses approval is not acceptable in my life any longer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No. It is a high-percentage shot in this instance. Every day that you Plan A correctly, she is drawn back toward you just a bit. She trusts just a bit more. Even if she still carries through with the plan to move out ... it will likely be brief, and will precipitate a quick, shocking realization of what she has lost. And you'll have her back for good. Your taker is rearing its ugly head bigtime. But if you're groveling and begging, you're also not doing a good Plan A. The objective is to show her she'd be losing a great guy, not some gum that was stuck to her shoe. Will you have smaller self esteem issues after you blow it? Believe me. I've been there. I've lived it. If your Plan A is good, you will have no regrets--even for the "lost" time (it won't seem lost--it will feel more like dues paid). If you drop out ... you'll have every regret.Stay the course.

Imp,I feel for you buddy. I am still in plan A, and watching my STBXW pack her stuff. She is getting on with her life. And that life no longer includes me. Does the neglect hurt? Sure it does. But in the long run, I will be a better person, father, and friend because of Plan A. I know how easily it is to just give up. My STBXW has made it painfully obvious what she wants (or does not want), and the OM gets to reap the benefits. Will I quit Plan A? No. At least not right now. I feel myself becoming the person that I should have been in the beginning. You need to take control of your Taker. Make him stay in his dark, dank dungeon. Focus on your self and on your kids. If your W decides that she is moving on without you, you will have to face that obstacle when the time comes. I have faith in you. Remember to take it one day at a time. Show her with actions what type of person you are becoming. You truly will be a better person in the long run because of it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Griz------------------ Sometimes the hardest journeys in life are not the ones you embark on alone, but those that you choose to travel together.[This message has been edited by Griz (edited March 13, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I have come to a point where I can no longer gravel, and beg, and neglect my basic emotional needsWhoa, there hoss. Back up. Grovel and beg? Somebody must have given you the April Fools Plan A Manual if anything you are doing is resembling groveling and begging. First off, groveling and begging are flat out unattractive, and making yourself the most attractive mate you can be is Goal One of Plan A. And a major rule of Plan A is don't exhibiti any behavior that you wouldn't commit to for the rest of your life. As far as "neglecting your basic emotional needs"...well....it takes two to get them met. I wouldn't say you are neglecting them...you are embarking on a much needed campaign to safeguard that they get met for the rest of your life. By this woman. I'm being loving and caring, compassionate, and focused on being the type of husband I should have been for the last 6 years.Sort of like she was for six years?The issue is now that no matter how perfect I'm being now she doesn't care! She doesn't want to be married.Probably correct. We are all here because of that problem. Plan A isn't a tactic for a sunny day, it is a strategy to give your marriage the best chance it has to recover and thrive. There are no guarantees. And, as the saying goes, it isn't for wimps. Most of us are here trying to make up for years of neglect. Yes, it s#$ks that our spouses have lost that loving feeling for us, but in most cases it is a self-inflicted wound. It sounds like the seriousness of the situation is crowding you today. Giving up is always an option. But the realization of your dilemma should reinvigorate you to try harder.Plan A is a low percentage, long shot, because there is only one party actively trying to save the marriage.Whether it is a long shot or a sure shot is situation specific. In some cases it is too late. Personally, I don't feel that is the situation in your case. Do you?Yes....having an enlightened and motivated spouse brings things further and faster. Most of us don't have that advantage. I don't, and that was the subject of my talk with Steve Harley this week. It is a longer road, and more of a burden, but it is still a viable strategy. And, unless you are willing to give up on your family, which I am not, it is the best strategy, and best investment of your time. AND....on a monthly basis, charted out, I have gotten more of my needs met every month by my spouse. You've come a long way since you first posted...you have to perfect a consistent pattern of loving behavior, and then your W has to come to trust it. Then her attitude will change.Look.....72 hours ago you were posting on here reporting that you were back in bed for the first time giving her rollicking orgasms, and she was happy and you had the Plan A vision nailed down. You seem to be flying high and crashing hard on a regular basis. It is fine to come on here and vent, but if this pattern is extending to your behavior at home....well....you pessimism over your chances is accurate, unless you can show more discipline. You have to put forth a CONSISTENT front....she can't be wondering whether it is Jekyl or Hyde next to her in bed this morning, not if you want to coax her heart out of its shell. And, I hate to break the news to you, but if you can't master the discipline of a pattern of consistent loving, attractive behavior, your next relationship is unlikely to fare any better.So get back with the program! You can do it, hang in there.Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 13, 2001).]

Imp,A couple other things I forgot to mention. I wrote once that you had to honestly ask yourself how much you loved your W. The other question that you have to honestly ask yourself is:Have I done everything possible, and I mean everything to save my marriage?Unfortunately, I believe that when we are faced with the situations that we are faced with, we run the risk of depleting our own love bank, which would put us in withdrawal as well. You can not allow yourself to become withdrawn. You need to be able to look back on this time and you need to be able to tell yourself that you did everything possible for this marriage. If you can’t do that, then I agree with Sis, you will have regrets. My own Love bank has been seriously jeopardized these last few weeks. But I can look back and honestly tell myself, that I did everything possible to save my marriage. The choices that I now live with are hers alone. I also agree mith Mike. Plan A is not for wimps. You need to be consistent. This is some of the hardest stuff you will probably ever have to do. Don't throw in the towel yet.I will keep praying for you. Ask God for strength my friend. And if you need to chat, email me: Griz1973@yahoo.comGriz

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I have come to a point where I can no longer gravel, and beg, and neglect my basic emotional needs for the purpose of saving something she does not want to save.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You'd better not neglect your basic emotional needs, or you'll run out of the emotional resources you need to continue wooing your wife. What you need to do is find ways to get these needs met that don't depend on your wife. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I need to get on her street. Her street is back off, stop trying to fix the marriage, and work on myself while she works on herself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You got it! But you keep forgetting it. You can't make your wife see that she's better off with you, and that shouldn't be your goal. "Fixing" your marriage shouldn't be your goal either. To do that implies that you are in control, and not only are you not in control, but you shouldn't want to be, since the only way your marriage can survive is if your wife commits to it of her own free will. So work on yourself, encourage her to work on herself, stop looking for instant results, and concentrate on loving her, no strings attached. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I respect all of the Harley's concepts but Plan A is awful close to trying to force someone to love you. I have never believed in that, nor do I now. There is a thin line between taking responsibility for your actions and being a damn fool for someone. I've grown and learned from my mistakes, and I'm a better man for it. I just can't continue sitting here and hoping she turns around one day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Plan A is not about forcing someone to love you. And there is no line at all between taking responsibility for your actions and being a fool. Respect your wife's ability to choose. What she chooses is her responsibility. And if you choose to be a "fool" and invest so much energy into your relationship with your wife without any certainty of getting anything in return, then you had better take responsibility for that choice yourself. When you make a choice, you are implicitly accepting the consequences of that choice. If you know what the costs may be, and you make the choice anyway, then you have no one to blame but yourself.I don't mean to be harsh here. There are plenty of people who would tell me that I'm being a fool for maintaining hope for my marriage, and I'm in a much more dubious position than you are, believe me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The fact that no one has commented on is what happens when you Plan A for 4 years and she never turns around? You plan A for 2 yars and some Prince Charming sweeps her off her feet. You have just wasted 2 or 4 years neglecting your needs to get through to someone who doesn't want to be gotten through to. Life is way to short for that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your name really should be "impatient", shouldn't it? Your roller-coaster has only been going for a few weeks, with unbelievably rapid progress, and here you are already talking about Plan A-ing for years.Well, OK, it could take that long. It could take longer. It could take the rest of your life! In spite of my teasing, and even though things appear to be going far better for you than you seem to feel, it is not inappropriate for you to be aware of this possibility. So be prepared to dig in, and don't neglect your own needs.Assuming, that is, that you are still willing to give your wife a chance, instead of doing unimaginable additional damage to your wife by abandoning her now, after all she's already been through.For myself, if I spend the rest of my life living alone and "waiting for" my wife - who refuses to have anything to do with me (except for extorting money) - I will not consider my life to have been wasted. Not many people get everything they want. But I have my faith, my hope, my love, and my integrity. Life is too short to give that up, and no one can take it away from me. As long as I have all that, I trust that God will find ways for my life to count for something. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had self esteem issues during my depression while I was neglecting her needs. That is what got us here. Plan A does not help my self esteem issues. Constantly graveling, begging, and feeling neglected in order to secure someone elses approval is not acceptable in my life any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good. Don't grovel, don't beg, and don't allow yourself to feel neglected. Instead of depending on someone else's approval, do what you know is right and find strength in God's approval.I'm not making light of this, and I'm not saying it's easy. I too have wrestled with self-esteem issues and depression, largely due to a failure to differentiate between what was my responsibility and what was actually out of my control.What may help, what certainly helped me, was to focus on understanding my wife's experiences and perspective. You are way too focused on your own feelings and reactions to what is going on in your marriage. Don't get me wrong: it is very important that you do keep aware of your feelings and reactions, but a bit more empathy for your wife would probably do you a world of good.For starters, you might start trying to learn about how your wife's early experiences with abuse have affected her. As isitme suggested, these experiences may be far more significant than either of you realize. If I had understood the difference between acknowledgement and acceptance ten years ago, my own marriage might have gone very differently... ------------------ So what's the glory in living? Doesn't anybody ever stay together any more? And if love doesn't last forever, tell me What's forever for? - Rafe Van Hoy

Wow... really awesome advice on this post! All of you have stood to the plate and hit homers in my book! I've learned a lot. But...When you've been in Plan A for a while without obvious response of your spouse, at best - at worst, spouse happy you've changed, soaked up all the ENs your dishin' and still decides to leave - doesn't Harley say the NATURAL consequences to this is that you will fall out of love with your spouse? One cannot make the spouse stay... if an unbeliever chooses to leave, let them go... God is a God of peace (1 Cor)? Maybe I'm wrong here but in my situation, I really can relate to DCope and Impulsive here...Forgive my pessimism/skepticism... I do agree that Plan A should be no strings attached and it ultimately will make us better people but why do we have expectations that something will change!? They say "hope floats" and it's so hard to keep it down yet there are times when ya just want to give up! Sooner or later our own ENs will go belly up and then what? Yes, love is a choice... What's the right thing?------------------ Doing what you like is freedom... Liking what you do is happiness

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by OvrCs: Forgive my pessimism/skepticism... I do agree that Plan A should be no strings attached and it ultimately will make us better people but why do we have expectations that something will change!? They say "hope floats" and it's so hard to keep it down yet there are times when ya just want to give up! Sooner or later our own ENs will go belly up and then what? Yes, love is a choice...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>We have hope (not necessarily expectations) that something will change because something did change. Plan A is about restoring something that once existed, about changing something back. Of course, a successful Plan A must then be followed by further positive change if the marriage is to thrive, but that's another story...I don't see how one could execute a successful Plan A if one wasn't getting most of one's emotional needs met. To make it work, you just (ha!) need to find ways of meeting those needs that do not depend on your wayward partner.If this is not possible, if the funds in one account can no longer cover the overdraft in your partner's account, then I don't see how you can continue.Perhaps this is the point where you "naturally" fall out of love. Or perhaps that happens earlier, and this is instead the point of emotional collapse. Perhaps it differs for different people and for different situations. I really don't know. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What's the right thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can speak only for myself. Everyone has to make their own choices, and often the choice is among several justifiable alternatives.Some people tend to choose paths with the best possible outcome, however unlikely that outcome may be. Other people tend to choose paths that avoid any chance of the worst possible outcome. Still others tend to choose paths that maximize the probability of some acceptable outcome. And yet others just react without thinking.Just remember that whatever you choose, you will have to live with the consequences.

I will take some time and decide what is the best way for me to proceed with my life. I'm very, very lonely right now. I need to be close to someone and that is not possible with the one I want to be close to so what you going to do? I'm having a difficult time dealing with the guilt from the devestation I caused in my marriage. That is why it seems more feasible to get on with my life and except the reality of the situation.

Two points:Definition: EN's are the things you need to see and experience in order to feel head over heels "in love." But it is certainly possible to do a 100% Plan A when none of the EN's are being met by spouse or anyone else. That is almost ALWAYS how it is done!How do you perfect Plan A when spouse is a LB'ing SOB? Or totally withdrawn WS?You have to CENTER yourself. BE the person of honor and integrity. Give love without expectation of receiving. If you are too emotionally dependent on your spouse or on having the relationship, you will fail. Many writers have addressed this. They call it different things. Basically, you have to adopt your own core values, not based on selfishness or materialism or other people. From your core, you can stand firmly and make good decisions. Then you can soothe yourself, set appropriate boundaries, and practice a winning Plan A!This is quite different from getting most of your en's met! It is about personal growth and character developement. Not easy, but worth it. ------------------ A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dcope: I will take some time and decide what is the best way for me to proceed with my life. I'm very, very lonely right now. I need to be close to someone and that is not possible with the one I want to be close to so what you going to do? I'm having a difficult time dealing with the guilt from the devestation I caused in my marriage. That is why it seems more feasible to get on with my life and except the reality of the situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good idea. Give the matter a good think. And while you're thinking, consider this: although it seems more feasible right now to put everything behind you and just "get on" with your life, and although that would indeed be easier in the short-term, how do you think you're going to feel in long run?You're already suffering from feelings of guilt from dragging your wife down once. But now that you have gone a long way toward restoring her faith in you, now that you have given her reason to hope and trust again, you are talking about shattering that hope and trust all over again.Do you think that's going to make you feel good? Hmm?Things are going better for your you than anyone in your position has any right to expect. I would be thanking God constantly if my wife were giving me the opportunities your wife is giving you, and I don't even have anything to be ashamed of with respect to my relationship with my wife. But your emotions keep bouncing up and down.That's not a criticism. Your emotional crashes are understandable and probably inevitable, especially given the way you have thrown yourself into your restoration program. You are right to be concerned about burning out. So take steps to prevent that from happening.First, decide whether you are committed to your marriage or not. If you are (and in my personal opinion you would be a fool not to make that commitment), then find ways to replenish your emotional resources. Don't look to your wife for this, but don't neglect it.I have had many friends and family members step up in support of me. They were more than willing to do so, but I had to reach out to them before I could get that support. If you're worried about being needy, spread your needs around so that no single person is burdened with everything. Don't neglect your goals, such as improving your physical condition and boosting your business, but be sure to give yourself some rewards on occasion too. Sometimes the more selfless you are, the more selfish you need to be. You can't give what you don't have, so make sure you've always got something to give.Remember, if you want your marriage to succeed, this is not a short-term campaign that you can let up on if and when your wife decides marriage to you is actually something she wants. Whatever decision you make, you'd better make it for the long haul. Fortunately, if you can stay the course during this crisis period, both you and your wife will have every reason to be confident in your ability to stay the course indefinitely. It will become far easier once you and your wife are feeding each other.Your chances look extremely good right now if you don't throw in the towel. The missteps you have made thus far are all minor. But if you give up now and blow it, I wouldn't care to bet that you'll ever get another chance.So think very carefully, won't you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karenna: But it is certainly possible to do a 100% Plan A when none of the EN's are being met by spouse or anyone else. That is almost ALWAYS how it is done!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm. On reflection, I believe you're right. I can't imagine going through this kind of situation without ample external support, but I'd guess that that support doesn't generally come via the kind of things Harley lists as ENs.

You made some very good points. I don't want to throw in the towel, but I think the strain of plan A is draining me emotionally. It's not that I don't want my marriage but the lack of tangible evidence of progress is a bottomless pit. It kills me everyday. I don't have the emotional energy left to sustain the plan A long term under the present circumstances. Something has to change. My up and down moods drains her just as much. She hates my roller coaster moods. I don't want to be that way because i see it as a love buster and I'm not doing any other love busting but the mood swings are uncontrollable. If things are going good, or positive I'm the nicest person in the world. When she says something negative I don't react angry, I just feel so depressed and hopeless that I get so quiet it frustrates her and me. I don't like the situation but it's not like it's just a discipline thing. It's chemical, or mental or something because I don't have any control over it. So when people say suck it up, or be discipline that's not it because I'm very discipline in all other aspect of my life that I changed.

Do you believe in a personal God who cares about you? Centering your life, perspectives and hopes on a Higher Power should help even out your wild swings and give you a stable emotional platform from which to give. But it takes thought and effort to do this.

You might want to see a doctor. I'm not a big advocate of using medication to control mood, but in your circumstances I think it may be worth considering. And I am a bit concerned about what you have said regarding your diet. You might want to get some advice on that too. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited March 15, 2001).]

Well she is out of town this whole week. So it's just me and my two boys spending a ton of quality time. I've considered medication to control my moods, but I've never been a advocate of medication either. I'm also very scared of side affects. I'm one of those freaks of nature that in 33 years hasn't had as much as a significant common cool, let alone any other type of sickness ever. So I never take medicine for anything. The only sickness I've struggled with is depression lately. I wouldn't struggle with that if I could remain optimistic about the future of this marriage. If my wife would say sit, back, leave me alone and we'll give this marriage another try in a few months or so. I wouldn't have a problem. I could handle that because there is light at the end of the tunnel. It seems like she has gone out of her way to turn out that light despite the positives that have manifested themselves over the last few weeks. We make what is obvious progress and then she not only ignores the progress but she reaches back and dumps a bucket of water over the little flame of hope that is left burning. If I could ignore that and keep going forward when she does that and focus on the next step of progress I would be in better shape. That's why I said I think I would be better off if I withdrew, because then I wouldn't be as emotionally invested in every word that comes out of her mouth, and every single piece of body language. When I say that you guys think I'm saying I want to quit. I just don't want to have mood swings anymore. I don't want to care so much. I don't want to destroy what's left of our marriage, but I also can't keep living the way I've been living the last 7 weeks. I have 3 days to decide whether to continue with plan A when she gets back. Is there any other options besides plan A? On the way to the airport she said to me that a couple of weeks ago I was as close to perfect as a husband could be. So on some levels plan A was working. However rather then trying to capture that and build on it she kills it by thrashing my hopes. I don't know what else to do. Maybe I need a week of vacation to figure out what I want to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I've considered medication to control my moods, but I've never been a advocate of medication either. I'm also very scared of side affects. If my wife would say sit, back, leave me alone and we'll give this marriage another try in a few months or so. I wouldn't have a problem. That's why I said I think I would be better off if I withdrew, because then I wouldn't be as emotionally invested in every word that comes out of her mouth, and every single piece of body language.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>#1 check <A HREF="http://www.copewithlife.com" TARGET=_blank>www.copewithlife.com</A> because there are non-medicating choices, as well as a description of the medications. For me, Wellbutrin SR has few side effects.#2 she is saying check back in a while. Only she is saying it in a way that manifests to you her own feelings of hopelessness. In time she will let herself feel hope. #3 What is there besides Plan A? Well, there's Plan B. How are you really doing? If it's only moodswings, then handle those and stay the course. If, however, she's draining your lovebank, then you need to think about Plan B and all that entails. Only you can make that decision, but to me it seems way early for Plan B, because Plan A has not yet been completely sold to her as the essence of what you now are. While it's possible that she will be able to continue to see that while you're in Plan B, I don't think it's that easy. Now the ol' photonegative approach could be described as a modified Plan B, but as you've seen, it is playing with fire. If she approaches again while you are in it, and you don't come toward her a little, you will push her further into withdrawal. Come forward too much, and she is able to top off her affection tanks and push you away again. You're juggling Faberge Eggs while riding a rollercoaster. We all know it ain't fun. And what's happening is affecting brain chemicals. Which have everything to do with your capacity to function. If you can wrestle those chemicals bare-handed, with only talk and thought as your aids, that's fine and dandy. But the hallmark of humanity has been our ability to conceive, create, choose and use tools. Of which drugs are some of our crowning achievements, enabling us to reshape what goes in inside our own bodies and brains. Of course, since you are having a hard time with the very thing that helps you make correct decisions, you should probably have a chat with a physician and lay on him the decision of how you will get better.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: We make what is obvious progress and then she not only ignores the progress but she reaches back and dumps a bucket of water over the little flame of hope that is left burning. If I could ignore that and keep going forward when she does that and focus on the next step of progress I would be in better shape. That's why I said I think I would be better off if I withdrew, because then I wouldn't be as emotionally invested in every word that comes out of her mouth, and every single piece of body language.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You need to learn to step back and see the forest, not just the trees. You're reacting so strongly to the little bumps on the graph that you have trouble seeing the upward curve.Do you understand why your wife dumps that bucket of water after you make some obvious progress?Have you ever tried to give a treat to a shy animal? When you approach it, it runs away, not sure what to expect from you. Are you a threat, are not? But it wants that treat. How much risk is it willing to take in order to get it? From a relative distance the treat seems worth the risk, but as the animal comes closer, with less opportunity to escape should you prove dangerous, the increased risk becomes more important than the treat, and the animal runs away again. But if you didn't make any threatening moves, it thinks maybe the risk wasn't as great as it thought, and so it comes closer still before running away again. But eventually, if the treat is enticing enough, and if you are patient and don't do anything to scare the animal off, there's a good chance that it will finally drop its guard enough to take the treat. Do this regularly, and the animal will finally come to trust you completely, and will come running when it sees you with a treat.When you experience some "obvious progress", it means your wife has dropped her guard a bit. Then she becomes aware of the risk she's taking and recoils in fear. This is a natural reaction. It is to be expected, and yet each time she reacts this way, you are experiencing it as a personal rejection. That, too, is a natural reaction, but if you remind yourself to look at the big picture, it should be easier to deal with.I don't think withdrawing is a good idea, but I think you do need to reduce your expectations and to stop reading so much into every little thing your wife says and does. Expect slow progress. It's actually what you should want, believe it or not.After a six-month separation, my wife came home prematurely only to panic and run again, this time refusing to have any kind of communication with me and filing for divorce. I'm not saying that to be discouraging: our situations are different. I'm saying it to remind you that slow and steady wins the race.When your wife accepts your overtures and opens up to you, that is a good thing. She's learning tor trust you. When she backs off and withdraws for a time, that's a good thing too. She's building up her strength for another try. Everything that is happening for you can be seen as positive, and it would help a lot if you could just see it that way.I still think your major concern needs to be to take care of yourself while you take advantage of every opportunity your wife gives you to demonstrate your love and trustworthiness. Even with the best perspective and the best attitude, the emotional drain on you is going to be prodigious.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Well she is out of town this whole week.? On business?The only sickness I've struggled with is depression lately. I wouldn't struggle with that if I could remain optimistic about the future of this marriage. If my wife would say sit, back, leave me alone and we'll give this marriage another try in a few months or so. I wouldn't have a problem.Right. And if you would stop with the roller coaster emotions and depression, your W's outlook would improve. Your depressed periods affect her as much as you relate hers do you. So it is Catch-22...you need something to break the cycle, and maybe medication is it.I think that if you were in counseling with the Harley's, he might be leaning on your W to meet some of your needs now, since your lovebank is drying up. Actually, your W probably sensed this intuitively, hence the sex and invitation back into bed. I think that if you can get your emotions under control, she will repay that with continue intimacy and your outlook will improve.Nothing that is worth it comes easy...it would be nice if she would just snap her fingers and say that all the damage from the years of neglect was over, but you still have work ahead of you to achieve that, But when it does happen, it will be sincere.I would talk to your doctor.Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 15, 2001).]

I ran into this book on the net. The whole thing is there. I think anybody who is having problems could stand to take a look: <A HREF="http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/" TARGET=_blank>http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/</A>

She went to California to visit her sister from Tuesday to Monday. I don't know what to expect when she gets back. I'm really enjoying the boys, though. I think I will take one day at a time and continue to grow as a person, and work on myself and stop focusing on the marriage. I need a friend. I'm tremendously lonely right now, but hey what cha going to do?

Hey Imp,I know how you feel. Take this time to soul search yourself for some of the answers you need. A week is a long time to think, so try not to dwell on things. Keep doing things with your kids. Their strength and outlook on life is very encouraging. They will help you find what it is you are looking for.Stay strong, you are in my prayers. I left my email address on my last post here. The offer is still open if you need to talk.Griz------------------ Sometimes the hardest journeys in life are not the ones you embark on alone, but those that you choose to travel together.

Surprise, Surprise she came back from California as distant as she was when she left. I'm not really surprised it's exactly what I expected. The only change is that for some reason I'm not hurt or upset with the distance between us. It's almost a comfortable discomfort. I picked her up from the airport with the kids and she got off the plane and hugged the kids and looked at me and said hi. We didn't talk much or at all for that matter. I got her bags and we went to the car. We had small talk in the car about her trip, she asked how my week was with the boys. So when she got in the house she went right to the phone, and walked into the other room and talked so I grabbed my bible and left. I went and had a few cups of coffee, and read my bible. When I came home a couple hours later she seemed a little upset that I didn't say goodbye, or tell her I was leaving. Well maybe I'm wrong but you know what I don't feel a connection to her at all. I don't feel compelled to tell her anything unless it's related to the boys or finances. I think my love bank is over drawn. I've lost that loving feeling. She lost it for me and I'm losing it for her rapidly. I guess the future is forthcoming and inevitable. She went and had a tatoo put around her bicep. Chinese letters, or those barb wire type tatoos. Obviously she likes it. Wheteher I would like it never came into the equation, because she is on the island of her. I believe it's a declaration of independence. It is totally uncharacteristic of her. In the past she would never had done something like that but, I guess it's the new her, and it's her body she can do what ever she wants with it. It's just a constant reminder of just how far gone our marriage really is. I'm losing the desire to fight for it. I'm not bitter, I'm not quitting I just don't see the point in trying to save something that she doesn't want saved. It's one thing when you feel guilty about the damage you've caused and you want to fix the marriage. Once you've done all you can do and the other person shows that she is totally pass the marriage and everything I'm doing is useless, I feel like I must disinvest my emotions from this marriage also. Every day that I stay connected and hopeful I lose a part of me. I burning a ton of energy and it's pointless. I love her but I can't afford emotionally to be in love with someone that is not in love with me. Suddenly I'm starting to warm up to her position of forsaking the marriage and let it die on the vine. Regrets. I don't know if I'll have anymore then I already have. I don't even know her anymore. I don't know the woman that would go and get something as permanent as a tatoo put on her body without talking it over with her supposed husband. I guess I am bitter. I feel totally dienfranchised. I thought the time away may help. I was praying that maybe, just maybe she would come back different then she left. I read that the plan A spouse's love bank gets depleated. Well my balance is dropping faster then I care to think about.

dcope/impulsive,Maybe she's having an MLC (mid-life crisis). I think it's time for you to look into the details of those. There's a little intro to it over here: <A HREF="http://www.middleage.org/marriagecrisis.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.middleage.org/marriagecrisis.htm</A> but I'm sure you can do more and better research. It's hard to focus on where to go from here. I hope you'll reconsider ... you have children, and you have a wife who is temporarily fogged up. If she were not meeting your needs because she had some dread disease, you would stick with her regardless. What's happening now is the disease is one where she turns against you. But it's still her, and the disease can go away. Remember, gradualism is important here. What can you do to make those things that were lacking just a little better today, say 5-10% better ... an amount that might escape conscious notice? Maybe something different at the breakfast table, a better way of organizing the kids going off to school in the morning, or picking up a new customer account in your business. When things are good, absence makes the heart grow fonder. When things are bad, coming home can do the opposite. Ease the transition by being exactly what she wants and needs, and no more. And don't demand anything from her.You're not running out of love, you're running out of patience. Pray for patience, do something nice for yourself to help you have patiences, and think of your kids when you're losing patience. I believe your Bible will have things to say about patience and love. Focus on that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I read that the plan A spouse's love bank gets depleated. Well my balance is dropping faster then I care to think about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sorry you are so down, Dcope.The one part of this you have to accept is that she will be on an emotional rollercoaster. That is a given. You can't throw your cards in every time that manifests itself, you have to look at it as an opportunity. As Harley said to me, being a loving spouse is contagious, just as being a cold and distant one is, as you saw at the airport.Are you going to lead or follow? As you related elsewhere, there was a lot of neglect on your part for many years....she was in your position....giving and giving and only being met with a Taker. I know, because I was that same person that you were, and I am also paying old bills.If you are going to save the marriage, there is still a big debt to be paid from your side. Hopefully, as time goes forward she will make more lovebank deposits and help your mood...remember...it wasn't long ago that she got you back in the bed, and you got some SF.I counseled with Harley last week, you might want to look up the thread I wrote. He spoke about acting in a loving manner and making it become "contagious" in a marriage. You can't take your cues from a withdrawn partner...you need to lead her back to intimacy.I wonder how it would have been at the airport if you had put a solid hour of full and upbeat attention on her at the airport? Perhaps she would have quickly defrosted.Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 20, 2001).]

Well, I feel very bad for you that things have not improved since she left and has now returned. Not much in the way of advice here, but maybe I can relate a little bit of my situation to yours?While I have been trying to be a better spouse to my H (call it plan a if you wish, or self-improvement, or letting God shape me to be the person he wants me to be) my H has been telling me more things about me that are upsetting to him. We rarely have relationship talks. But the last few times we have he tells me "You have a negative attitude about life." Just the other night he told me "The reason I don't talk to you is because you don't listen to me." (These two conversations happened about a month apart.) Thing is, HE IS RIGHT! I am these things! I have fallen into some bad habits over the 17 yrs. of our married life. I recognize this and I am trying to change - but don't make light of change. It is hard work!! In another conversation my H brought up a nebulous number of "For the past 15 yrs..." I was horrified to think that he really believes that for 15 of our 17 yrs. I have used sex as a weapon to manipulate him. I very much take issue with his 15 yr. number and believe I have already taken steps to change this in the last 8 months or so, but evidently he is still feeling sore about all this and carries some resentment about it and I am responsible for a lot of it.I'm finding it to be very true what has been said on this site, that when you plan a, it does create a more safe environment for the withdrawn spouse, and while you are working hard to be loving, kind, and meet their needs, it's like they now feel they can really say what's on their minds and let their feelings out and sometimes what they say hurts! My H is starting to do this.People here have said to you before that, look how long you were treating her cr*ppy and wallowing in your own misery. Can you face it that maybe it is going to take equal that much time before things are a whole lot better? I am getting to that point now. My H tosses out a number like 15 yrs. and in another post Happy_Hus made a reference also to "several years" before things are much better. These are disturbing numbers but I have to face the fact that I have been selfish in my marriage for several years - I may need to live selflessly for several years now and find the strength to suck things up. It is going to be a long road especially if I don't see progress in myself or my marriage along the way. But if I am honest with myself, I can see very small changes for the positive. It is a little bit of "two steps forward and one step back" but it is still progress.You have heard this before, but you really have been at this for a very short time (since mid-Feb?) especially when you compare it to how long you were miserable to her.I think a lot of what your W is doing is she's trying to push your buttons. Like the tattoo. Since you say it is uncharacteristic of her to do it, I see it as kind-of her way of giving you the finger. And a lot of her behaviors to me seem to be her way of saying, "You treated me bad, now you're going to know what it feels like." Try to understand why she is doing these things rather than reacting to them.I am not trying to minimize your pain. I'm really trying to be encouraging to you by saying there are other people here that are struggling in situations too where changes need to be made but they happen very very slowly.Maybe you don't have the strength to keep up the plan a and it is very understandable that her attitude is wearing on you. Just think really hard before you do anything drastic. And keep praying.Em

A quick point, dcope/impulsive: if you think the intrigue, guessing games, and general nuisance is bad now, remember that you have kids with your W, and you'll have a hard time ever being truly free of one another. I don't even have kids, and look at the kinds of things that still go on: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002429.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002429.html</A> You need to make a decision whether you want to wind up living like that. Because I'll tell you, it sucks. There are things asked of me during my marriage I would have thought impossible for me to swallow (something as simple as picking up a second job despite the fact that I thought we were pulling in plenty of money). Today, knowing what I know now, if I could go back in time I would crawl over broken glass to do those things. If that's what would make her happy, that's what I would do.I'm not stuck on XW, because she's treated me badly enough that I've had it with her at this point. But she had to do an awful lot to put me emotionally in the place I am now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: So when she got in the house she went right to the phone, and walked into the other room and talked so I grabbed my bible and left. I went and had a few cups of coffee, and read my bible. When I came home a couple hours later she seemed a little upset that I didn't say goodbye, or tell her I was leaving.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why did you leave, hmm? What were you trying to communicate to your wife? Were you trying to say "I can be distant too"? Or were you trying to say "I don't want to be around you if you're going to shut me out"? Or what?I can think of a bunch of other messages you may have conveyed by your actions, but none are loving or respectful. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well maybe I'm wrong but you know what I don't feel a connection to her at all. I don't feel compelled to tell her anything unless it's related to the boys or finances. I think my love bank is over drawn. I've lost that loving feeling. She lost it for me and I'm losing it for her rapidly. I guess the future is forthcoming and inevitable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Interesting. Changes in your feelings make your choices inevitable, huh? I guess "impulsive" really is a good name for you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She went and had a tatoo put around her bicep. Chinese letters, or those barb wire type tatoos. Obviously she likes it. Wheteher I would like it never came into the equation, because she is on the island of her. I believe it's a declaration of independence. It is totally uncharacteristic of her. In the past she would never had done something like that but, I guess it's the new her, and it's her body she can do what ever she wants with it. It's just a constant reminder of just how far gone our marriage really is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your wife is testing the waters. She is trying to adjust to the idea of being independent, which is a big scary step. If all she needs to do to convince herself of her own ability to be daring and different is to get a tattoo, then be grateful.And the fact is, it is her body. If your marriage were healthy, and you were both ecstatically in love with each other, how would you have handled it if your wife decided she wanted to get a tattoo?Your wife has revealed a side of herself you never suspected. But instead of seeing this as an opportunity to learn something more about your wife, and showing your interest in her, all you can do is bemoan the fact that she didn't ask your advice first. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm losing the desire to fight for it. I'm not bitter, I'm not quitting I just don't see the point in trying to save something that she doesn't want saved. It's one thing when you feel guilty about the damage you've caused and you want to fix the marriage. Once you've done all you can do and the other person shows that she is totally pass the marriage and everything I'm doing is useless, I feel like I must disinvest my emotions from this marriage also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First, nothing you have ever said on this forum indicates that your wife is "totally past" your marriage or that everything you're doing is useless. The facts contradict your feelings.Second, you haven't done near everything you can do. Even if you've already thought of everything (which you haven't), you haven't had time to do everything. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Every day that I stay connected and hopeful I lose a part of me. I burning a ton of energy and it's pointless. I love her but I can't afford emotionally to be in love with someone that is not in love with me. Suddenly I'm starting to warm up to her position of forsaking the marriage and let it die on the vine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're burning out. This is predictable, considering that you went directly from long-term depression to an almost manic effort to single-handedly save your marriage. That's not a sustainable approach. You need to slow down, lower your expectations, and work more on yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Regrets. I don't know if I'll have anymore then I already have. I don't even know her anymore. I don't know the woman that would go and get something as permanent as a tatoo put on her body without talking it over with her supposed husband. I guess I am bitter. I feel totally dienfranchised. I thought the time away may help. I was praying that maybe, just maybe she would come back different then she left. I read that the plan A spouse's love bank gets depleated. Well my balance is dropping faster then I care to think about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There's nothing wrong with praying for a miracle, but that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to put in your own hard work. If I didn't know first-hand how painful this kind of situation is, I would say you are displaying an astonishing lack of patience. As it is, I'll just say that your impatience is understandable, but you've got a highly unrealistic idea of the amount of time it will take to restore your marriage. You actually seem to be on the fast track to recovery, and all you can do is complain about how everything doesn't instanteously become perfect.Regrets? You will have them if you act impulsively. Right now you're entering withdrawal, but acting on your feelings rather than what you know to be right is one of the very most effective ways of piling up regrets.I'm sorry to be so harsh, but do you have any idea how many of us here would be jumping up and down for joy if we had the opportunities you have? Get some perspective, man! And then go do something nice for yourself. Even the best view from hell is painful as...well... hell! ------------------ So what's the glory in living? Doesn't anybody ever stay together any more? And if love doesn't last forever, tell me What's forever for? - Rafe Van Hoy[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited March 20, 2001).]

Thanks, Mike,GDP,SIS, and ESE I guess the general consensus is I'm over reacting, and I'm being impatient. I just don't know what else to do. The tatoo thing does bother the hell out of me, but what are you going to do? I working as hard as I've worked in years. I'm getting new accounts for my business on a daily basis. I don't run home and tell her all the positive because I don't want to sound like I'm trying to impress her. Like I'm doing it for her. I'm doing it because it's really what I do best when I'm in my right frame of mind. I love business and I'm very good at it. My relationship with my boys is better then ever, and my relationship with God is better then ever also. The only piece missing is the loving, supportive wife. I guess 4 out of 5 is not to bad. The good thing is that I'm really plugged in on my life changes. I've not deviated one iota. That is good. The problem is she hasn't moved any closer either and that is frustrating. So my goal is to maintain my work on me, while deemphasizing my efforts to repair the marriage. If she reaches out and asks for affection or Sf I will jump off a bridge to give it to her. However I can't continue to pour affection into a bottomless pit. I will not lovebust, I will not give up and move on with my life but I won't continue to subject myself to constant rejection after rejection. She wil get out of me what she puts into it also. Here is my problem. Everyone keeps saying look how long you treated her like that. Well I was wrong! When does 2 wrongs make a right. So when do I get retribution? Will it be my turn to treat her like crap again next? Not for real but that's the line of logic this arguement that you provoked this type of treatment with your actions in the past. I will maintain my focus on my changes but I can't shower her with affection if she not asking for it, or initiating it. Am I wrong for feeling this way?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I'm getting new accounts for my business on a daily basis.Just in general, what sort of business are you in?How do you treat those prospects when you are wooing them to be customers?I don't run home and tell her all the positive because I don't want to sound like I'm trying to impress her.Just a guess, but probably the best way to score points here is to regularly work on paying down any debt you may have, and make sure she knows it. That is an impoortant way to meet FS when things are tough.However I can't continue to pour affection into a bottomless pit. I will not lovebust, I will not give up and move on with my life but I won't continue to subject myself to constant rejection after rejection.Who said affection was one of her ENs? If she is withdrawn right now, affection may be a lovebuster. Affection is YOUR EN. By forcing it on her, your Taker is right in her face.Everyone keeps saying look how long you treated her like that. Well I was wrong! When does 2 wrongs make a right.3 wrongs doesn't either. So break the cycle.Get back on track. The trip broke the progress a little...see if you can connect to her again. Have you talked with her much?Mike [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 21, 2001).]

No, you are not wrong. And if she doesn't even want it, asyou already know, the affection and attentions are lovebusters.You ought not be breaking your neck to impress her with your passion and loveydovey stuff. But do keep in contact with her. Tell her everything you are doing, like going out to the coffee shop. Be constantly polite and considerate. Never lovebust. Leave her a bit of room to approach you. You sound much more calm in this last post than you have in a long long while. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Step back from the situation mentally and visualize the process you are in.Congratulations on the progress so far. This is actually great, even with the tattoo. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

(Remember, there are such things as lasers in case she changes her mind in a couple of years or so.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I working as hard as I've worked in years. I'm getting new accounts for my business on a daily basis. I don't run home and tell her all the positive because I don't want to sound like I'm trying to impress her. Like I'm doing it for her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wouldn't be afraid to share more abut what is happening at work ... if you can set up (or enhance) a college fund for the kids, it wil probably do as much to impress her as anything. Trying to impress her? Yoda says "There is no try. Do or do not."

The last 2 days have been some of the most gut wrenching, painful relationship talks that we have had to date. Bottom line my perspective. We have been climbing a very steep hill with a boulder on our backs. We've finally put the boulder down and I can see the top of the hill which is happiness. I'm saying let's take a few steps together and see how easy it is without the boulder. She to scared to take even one step with me. She is starting to go down the hill by herself. I'm staying where I'm at yelling down to her we can do this just trust me. She comes back up the hill during relationship talks, obviously tired from walking down and then having to come all the way back up to me to talk relationship. She is saying you go up the hill by yourself. Get to the top by yourself and MAYBE one day I'll meet you up there. The hard part for me is letting go. Seeing so clearly that we can be happy if she allows her self to just take a few steps and see that we have lightened our load tremendously and we are so close to the top. Her perspective She is like the little old lady that has listened to the telemarketer tell her that she has won a million dollars. The old lady has sent in $1,000.00 several times hoping to get the million dollars, because the telemarketer which is me is just so good at getting people to believe him, but every time the telemarketer has an excuse why the check didn't come. I'm the telemarketer saying but really I have the check in my hand. I can send it but you have to show trust by sending me more money this time too. We are at the same place we were at 2 months ago when all this started. She doesn't want to get back in the relationship. She wants us to continue getting on with our lives in the same house together. I'm dying here. The prospect that I've wasted 2 months of agony and pain and I'm at square one is suffucating. As I see it I have two choices. I can continue up the hill by myself while my neck is turned toward her watching her go the other way, or I can turn around and run up the hill by myself towards happiness without ever looking back and totally ignoring the possibilties of us ever reuniting. Maybe I'm screwy but the latter seems more doable at this point. I just don't have the energy to start from scratch. I can't focus on our marriage any longer it's way to exsausting. It takes to much emotional energy from both of us. She says that I have to get on with my life. I take that as she would rather I do the latter scenario also. Has anyone else ever had a setback of this magnitude. Have you picked up the pieces or have you given up. If I go up the hill by myself without looking back wouldn't that be the same as giving up. She says that If I get to the top maybe she will come and meet me, maybe tommorrow, maybe never. However it's important that I get there for my sake and the kids sake. I'm in desparate need of feedback right now. I have to go on with my life. The growth that I Know I made so far is I don't feel depressed or suicidal, or hopeless. I just hat ethat starting over feeling. It's ironic because I usually like starting things I used to hate finishing things. So is today the first day of the rest of my life or am I still on the same old treadmill of Plan A, Make progress, Sabatoge with Impatientce and Stupidity?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'm in desparate need of feedback right now. I have to go on with my life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe it is a lack of coffee this AM, but your analogies are going right over my head. Could you just tell me some of what she said? I think we know how you feel.Was the telemarketer analogy hers? NBecause that shows that she has a problem trusting or believing your changes, which mercurial behavior will bring about.You seem, again, to want to solve eveything with a relationship talk that gets her to commit to the marriage or state that she is in love with you again. Neith of these things will take place in the context of a relationship talk initiated by you. AND bopth are probably quite premature, given the erratic nature of your Plan A (sorry, but I'm being blunt)Change your name to "Patient" continue Plan Aing, and stop trying to solve everything in a day, my friend. If you want an analogy....It is like you are building a house, which takes 6 months, and it is week 2, and you are sitting in the foundation wanting to give up because you are cold and wet.

Let's get back to Harley's basic definition (I've added emphasis here and there): <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, Disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover. On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again. In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness. A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof. In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>OK, what do I glean from this? Plan A won't work without your wife's involvement in it. Plan A won't work if you are just pushing for reconnection straightaway. Plan A won't work if you and your wife are in conflict. Plan A won't work if you don't spend time together in your off-hours. Plan A won't work if either of you is away a lot. In short, you're missing some elements of a Plan A through no fault of your own. Other elements are yours to control. It's kind of like the controllers of Apollo 13 sitting down and saying, "Well, what's still working on the vehicle?" The more skillfully you work with what you do have, the better shot you have to build or acquire the missing pieces so that you can get home. Also, realize that Plan A is posited for the affair scenario. If there isn't actually an affair or emotional attachment (still uncertain), you'll need to work out adjustments to what you're going to do, and what you're going to seek.This may be a bitter pill to swallow, but I think one thing you might want to consider is rolling out the Policy of Joint Agreement in regards to where she wants the marriage to go (this unacceptable "roommate" type thing). Sit down and horsetrade, with the goal of having well-defined roles and expectations--somewhat below the total reconnection you expect, somewhat above the disconnection she expects.For instance, negotiate to foreclose either of you from spending leisure time in the company of the opposite sex. Negotiate that "for appearances sake" she will let you take her out once a week, will react appropriately in front of the children if you bring flowers, etc., and that anything physical that occurs between you will be without pressure, and wil be no-strings. Also, you won't be hanging out in strip clubs, etc.; and will be working with her on financial arrangements for the both of you and for the kids, and that you will let her in to that world so that nothing is concealed or incomprehensible to her. You and she should agree that you will talk to each other and listen to each other about important things. What are you doing here? You're trying to ease her out of withdrawal, through conflict, and to a level of intimacy that she is comfortable with. Once you convince her she's not going to drown in a tub that has an inch of water, and actually get her into it; you can start to gradually raise the water level. The talks are actually good, except that you're hearing things that are so painful to you that you're flooding, and saying No! No! No! instead of actually negotiating. You don't get people to love you by telling them that they can't have whatever it is they think they want. That makes you an obstacle, not an object of affection. I think you can get a better agreement out of her now than you could have a month ago. Her words may be the same, but the negotiated movement you can get toward intimacy will be much greater. Take what you can get, then live within those ground rules. Herbert Hoover used to say "Prosperity is just around the corner." Although he was wrong of course, I think its relationship analogue does apply in this instance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She is saying you go up the hill by yourself. Get to the top by yourself and MAYBE one day I'll meet you up there. The hard part for me is letting go. Seeing so clearly that we can be happy if she allows her self to just take a few steps and see that we have lightened our load tremendously and we are so close to the top.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't find fault with your wife's perspective. You're trying to convince her that you know what's good for her, which isn't going to give her the impression that you have much respect for her. You're smothering her.Also, she needs to know what kind of person you are when you are not focused on getting what you want from her. (In this case, you want her to commit herself to your marriage.) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm the telemarketer saying but really I have the check in my hand. I can send it but you have to show trust by sending me more money this time too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And why should she trust you? You haven't exactly demonstrated that it was a wise thing for her to do in the past; and what's worse, you can't even trust yourself! You keep talking about throwing in the towel and starting over, when you've barely gotten past the starting gates on this effort to restore your marriage. If your wife were reading your posts here, she would get the impression of a desperately sincere guy who really can't be trusted to stay the course. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We are at the same place we were at 2 months ago when all this started. She doesn't want to get back in the relationship. She wants us to continue getting on with our lives in the same house together. I'm dying here. The prospect that I've wasted 2 months of agony and pain and I'm at square one is suffucating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are not where you were 2 months ago. You've said yourself that you've experienced personal growth. That's not a waste. And your wife wants to stay in the same house. That's terrific! Think of all the opportunities you will have to show her what kind of a man you really are or can become! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As I see it I have two choices. I can continue up the hill by myself while my neck is turned toward her watching her go the other way, or I can turn around and run up the hill by myself towards happiness without ever looking back and totally ignoring the possibilties of us ever reuniting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is what is known as a "false dichotomy". The illusion that there are only two possibilities when there are actually many. Sisyphus had an excellent suggestion about you sitting down with your wife and negotiating an agreement that you can both live with. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can't focus on our marriage any longer it's way to exsausting. It takes to much emotional energy from both of us. She says that I have to get on with my life. I take that as she would rather I do the latter scenario also. Has anyone else ever had a setback of this magnitude.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sure, I've experienced tiny little setbacks. From my perspective, you haven't had a setback of any significance. You want a major setback? How about coming home from work to find that the movers have been there and all your wife's stuff is gone? How about your wife refusing to communicate with you in any way, shape, or form? For months, with no end in sight. How about your wife filing for divorce and telling all kinds of lies about you under oath?And tbat's just my story. There are plenty of people on these forums that have stories making mine seem like a pleasant walk in the park!I'm not denying the reality of your pain and frustration. Your feelings are deep, real, and understandable. But are you going to act on the basis of your feelings, or on the basis of the facts? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If I go up the hill by myself without looking back wouldn't that be the same as giving up. She says that If I get to the top maybe she will come and meet me, maybe tommorrow, maybe never. However it's important that I get there for my sake and the kids sake.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You know something? I think your wife is right. You need to go to the top of the hill by yourself. Stop frequently to turn around and smile at your wife, and then when you get to the top set up a nice, enticing camp site where your wife can see it.That's not giving up on your wife. That's giving up control of your wife. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited March 22, 2001).]

Well Before I left for work this morning I just asked in passing about the possibilties of a quickie. Let's just say she presented very little resistence. We had a very gratifying SF session. I had a different perspective afterwards. I came to the realization that I could be in worse shape, and I am being impatient. If she is still willing to be in the house, and willing to have sex from time to time, then I guess I shouldn't press the marriage issue. I'm trying to stay focused on the positives and less of the negatives. It is definetly a trust me that I changed issue at play here. She wants to trust me but she can't quite bring herself to because she stayed in the relationship far longer then she wanted to, because she didn't have the heart to leave me or tell me she wanted out. That is why it's so hard for her to go back because she felt trapped for so long. She also feels that I'm spoiled and I say anything to get my way. I have a reputation as being very persuasive when I want to be. She sees it as a issue of me finally finding a situation were I can't talk my way out of it. [This message has been edited by dcope (edited March 22, 2001).]

I'm a little confused right now. I had a talk with the W today because there was something that was driving me nuts. I went to church this morning for early move prayer service. I left feeling uplifted and positve and very good from top to bottom. I cam home and she notice that I had makeup on the shoulder of my shirt. She mad a very snide comment like "Good for you" "I'm happy you have make up on you shirt". What happened at that point was I felt like I was stuck with a knife and she twisted it with her statement. I lost the ability to argue or defend myself. All the joy I had from my church experience as drained out of my body like a car's battery with the lights left on. This was the second time in as many days that she has said things to really hurt and frustrate the heck out of me. Yesterday while taking my son to school she basically yelled at me because I missed a homework assignment he was supposed to do. I stood up half the night cooking,cleaning, doing laundry and caring for the kids and just because I missed one homework assignment I was made to feel like crap. I felt again like I'm doing my best. I'm trying my hardest and when I make a mistake I get trashed like I'm not doing anything at all. So I sat her down today and told her that I really feel like she draining the joy right out of me and that I'm starting to hate coming home. I'm trying my best and nothing seems good enough anymore. She said she was very sorry and that wasn't her intention but that she has been very frustrated because she see's the changes I made an she appreciates the fact that I recognize the mistakes I've made over the years but that she hates that I'm not listening to her when she says she's doesn't want the marriage. She see's me trying to impress her with change as me being selfish and only wanting what I want. I told her that she is right that I should not have pressured her in the past but that I felt that if I could just get her to see that the changes were real then we had a chance. She said that we are not on the same page. She just wants to remain friends and not focus on the marriage at all. She referenced the marriage builders forum. She said that she was uncomfortable being nice to me because she saw that being nice to me was like leading me on. She said I saw were you wrote about the time I gave you a pillow, and you thought it was a positive sign. It should not have been looked upon as that, I was just trying to be nice. You took it somewhere I didn't want it to be. So she says that's why she is so rude lately because if she's nice it raises my expectations, and she doesn't want my expectations raised. I'm lost right now. I've backed away and stop pressuring and she's getting ruder and ruder because she doesn't want to be nice? How do I win here? What's happening is my love bank account is slowly shrinking and I don't know what to do. I can't be nice to her because she doesn't want it because it make her feel guilty and obligated, and she won't be nice to me because she thinks it raises my expectations. So whe are in the same house, and same bed unable to make lovebank deposits because of the fear of her reaction and her fear of my reactions. help!

Do you have pastor or priest or anybody you can go to now? Counseling is needed. Maybe a good counselor would help to motivate her to soften a bit for the sake of the children.How is the income situation? Is she working? Are you still working two jobs? Are your bills paid up?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I had a talk with the W today because there was something that was driving me nuts.Your Taker was driving you nuts. He is supposed to be chained to the furnace, remember? She is in withdrawal, Impy. You have to let time and your actions change that. If you ask her how she feels, you are probably going to get an answer you don't like. If you put demands on her in terms of your needs, she is going to smack you down, like she just did. I don't know any other way to explain this again. You are back in bed, at her insistence....that is progress. You are having occasional lovemaking sessions. That is progress. She is noting your changes. TIP. She is not trying to throw you out. TIP. This is all great stuff.But you HAVE to get a grip on your Plan A here and get it finetuned. The emotional rollercoaster and the thrice weekly relationship talks are killing her hope of progress. Have you considered some anti-deps or some other medication to chill you out? Talk to your doctor. Because you can't be looking to your W for help with your lovebank, that isn't in the cards right now. If it happens it is manna from heaven. Your Taker coming out and talking about your lovebank to her has got to stop. You might as well send your attorney rather than your Taker...the end result will be the same.Try to set some behavior goals for two weeks, show some discipline, and stick to them. NO relationship talks. SUNNY attitude around your W. Don't be affected by her moods or lovebusting. If she is crabby, you act happy and pleasant. If she seems depressed, you act happy and pleasant. If she sprouts goat horns and babbles in tongues, you act happy and pleasant. Your fate is your own here, Imp. Your strength and discipline will determine what happens to your marriage, not her mood du jour. Originally posted by impulsive: help!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Impy, my friend, you have gotten all of the help that a message board is going to give you, to the tune of 16 pages. There is no secreyt handshake or magic spell or G-Spot that is going to make this happen overnight. And unless one of us skins you ala Silence of the Lambs and slides into your skin and then your bed, it is going to have to be YOU that effects a consistent Plan A, cuts out the lovebusting, stops the sadsack relationship talks, and pulls it together. You can do it and recover your marriage. Or you can fail and eventually lapse into divorce. But it really is YOU that has your fate in your hands. You have gotten all the information that this board is going to provide you...we can lead you to the water, but we can't make you drink. But think about this: If your W had truly had her mind made up, you would be on the street, not in her bed.What are you going to do? [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 24, 2001).]

dcope, How about some inspiration and motivation? Read this <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/003792.html" TARGET=_blank>For Mike C2</A> thread and read all the links too. And may I second the motion that you change your name to "Patient", or "Coping Nicely" or something really positive that reflects your goal? Not that there is anything inherently bad or evil in some impulsiveness, but at this point it is a habit that must be reined in!

Let me ask you something, impulsive: Do you love your wife unconditionally? If you tried to give your wife everything she wanted from you, and she still left you, would you believe that all your efforts were wasted? Or would you be thankful for what you were able to give her while you still had the chance?Think about this carefully. Your wife believes you are still focused on getting what you want. You want the marriage, and she thinks that's why you've changed, not because you love her. Granted, none of us have entirely unmixed motives, and there's nothing wrong with working toward what you want; but if a significant part of your motivation is not love for your wife, then frankly, I don't think you've got a chance.So, first decide whether you really love her. And if you do, then ask yourself this: why doesn't your wife want you to get your hopes up?Why would she care about that, hmm? You don't suppose, perhaps, that it's because she loves you? Maybe?

I believe she loves me but I've responded in ways that still make her feel bad about herself. She doesn't deserve it and I hadn't intended for it to be like it has been. Impatience has been a killer here. Rather then sitting back and taking pride and satisfaction in the tiny steps of progress I was making I wanted it all yesterday and acted in a way that she didn't like at all. It turned out to be a bigger lovebuster then the one's I changed. I'm growing slowly but surely but the problem is I'm dragging her through the growth process with me and I'm doing damage with my impatience, and impulsiveness. Now I'm in a position I didn't want to be in. I've made my bed, but now I'm going to lie in it without complaing about how uncomfortable it is.

Things have been going fairly well lately so I haven't felt as compelled to write however over the last couple of days we have had some minor setbacks, and I would love some feedback just to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot. Since last Sunday I have been on a real natural life high. Lots of energy, tons of fun and horseplay with the boys and no mood swings or lack of patience with the wife. Thursday night she let me massage her feet. Friday night she let me massage her back and body. Albeit, I'm still on the couch (Mike you lose the bet it's been more then a week already [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Saturday morning we had some earth moving SF. Went together to watch my kid play hockey, went to Toys R US together afterwards and bought the kids toys, and then went to dinner at Appleby's (All you can eat Ribs $10.00 can't beat it). Anyway we decided to get a sitter and go to a party together. Dropped the kids off at the sitter, and then went to the party. On the way in I tried to hold her hand and she snatched her hand back and said don't hold my hand this is not a date. I was a little taken back but I got over it quick. Once we were at our table with a group of friends rather then sitting right next to her I left a chair between us. She was upset that I was being distant. She was also upset that I would not drink beer. I was only drinking Pepsi (New found religious convictions) I tried to lighten things up by dancing and smiling alot but she was still a little pissed. On the way home she didn't say a word. Once we got home she said we needed to talk. She said that once she said don't hold her hand my whole attitude changed, and that is why we should not have had sex. I said that I thought I over stepped a boundary and the reason I didn't sit directly next to her was because I didn't want her to feel crowded or pressured like I was tryiing to move in for the kill or something. She seemed convinced that I was different, but I explained that I was hurt for about 10 seconds and after that I was fine with it. I told her that I think that she is so conditioned to think I'm acting funny that she misinterpreted my feelings about the entire night. She said that I'm probably right and that she is so confused that she doesn't know what to believe anymore and that the sex between us while beter then ever (WHY??) clouds her judgement and objectivity and is not a good idea. She feels that by having sex with me she is leading me on, or giving me false hope. Of course I say lead me please. I'm a little confuse myself, on one hand I think I'm making great progress and at the same time she says something like that to take all the wind out of my sails. Am I delusional? The other situation happened today. Again sex involved. I brought up the point that I was way way horny, and I propositioned her like How $$ much for sex? (Terrible attempt at humor) She agreed on a price i cam right home from work we had sex and before, during , and after i sensed that she was not happy. Afterwards she said she felt cheap, and used, and that Once again put my wants in front of her feelings. I apologized because it was not what I intended to do. i explained that i was just trying to get close to her and she said that she felt compelled to do it because i still have the financial hammer in my hand and she wants to please me or I won't pay bills. I told her I don't want her to feel like that and that although I do have a desire to make love to her not at that cost. I need some advise her. Am I really hurting my plan A? How should I have handled these to situations, and how to I handle the sex issue in the future? I'm not sure if my plan A is working or not!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: (Mike you lose the bet it's been more then a week already [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Saturday morning we had some earth moving SF.scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, getting laid trumps the couch. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I was a little taken back but I got over it quick. Once we were at our table with a group of friends rather then sitting right next to her I left a chair between us. She was upset that I was being distant. She was also upset that I would not drink beer.Well.....remember that she is very sensitive to signals, so you have to play it like the pioneers did with the indians "keep your eyes shining" Don't get moody and then say "I'm not mad", that isn't honest and it hampers good communication. In other words, it isn't what uyou DO, it is the KARMA you put out, and plainly she sensed you were ticked, and also maybe you caused your firends to wonder why you were sitting apart.Look, don't offer a defense here, just learn that you have to be extra careful not to offend. I was only drinking Pepsi (New found religious convictions)Well, didn't she say earlier that she was afraid that you wouldn't party with her anymore? Maybe nursing a beer would have been a good idea...She said that I'm probably right and that she is so confused that she doesn't know what to believe anymore and that the sex between us while beter then ever (WHY??) clouds her judgement and objectivity and is not a good idea.Well, it would be nice to convince her that the lovemaking is important in meeting each of your needs and keeping connected, and you will stop all atte,pts at initiating affection.By the way, I suspect that when she "allows" you to massage her feet, which you believe is a good sign, she is actually filling your lovebank and probably draining hers with unwanted affection.I brought up the point that I was way way horny, and I propositioned her like How $$ much for sex?Gee, on how many levels was this a bad idea? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You asserted your needs while overlaying a reminder of your financial woes. Ouch.You need to retrench, respect the boundaries that she is setting, keep working on the financial support, and hang back on your needs. It seems to me that maybe she has a decent sex drive (you're lucky), and I think if you hang back and behave she'll probably come back to you on the sex. But make sure you respect her desire for no affection, but don't do it in a "sulky" way that she will pick up.

impulsive, my take is that you are doing great. Mike C2 says that you have to be extra careful not to offend, and he's right, but you will drive yourself crazy if you try to second-guess yourself all the time. Sure, your wife's wariness is making her extra sensitive to the signals you are putting out, but it's also causing her to pick up a whole lot of imaginary signals. There's nothing you can do about that, so just make sure that your real signals are strong enough to punch through the noise. Everything you said in your last post leads me to believe that you are on exactly the right track. You're being direct and honest with your wife when she wants to talk, but you're not pressuring her for relationship talks yourself. Fortunately, she is talking and she is listening. That's everything you can realistically hope for right now, and more. Count yourself blessed.It's good that you are asking these questions here, though. Re-evaluation is the name of the game, because the track doesn't tend to go straight all the time. Your wife is giving you some valuable input here, which you wouldn't have gotten if things hadn't played out the way they did. She's giving you a terrific opportunity to make adjustments now.First, don't ask your wife for sex. The last thing you want is for her to feel used, and to do anything for you out of a sense of obligation. That will only breed resentment.Second, as your wife gives you opportunity (don't force it!) you need to try to get her to understand that what you want most from her is for her to be true to her heart and to herself. True intimacy can only be achieved voluntarily. Anything else would be a cheap imitation, and that's not what you want. If you really love your wife, you want what's best for her no matter what it costs you. If her heart takes her away from you, then you have to be prepared to accept that. If her pain or her fear takes her away from you, that's another story. That would be a tragedy.Third, as she brings up her feelings, assure your wife that you want to respect her boundaries. You did a pretty good job of this already when you explained that having your desires fulfilled could come at too high a cost. This is really just a corollary to my previous point, but it addresses how you must interact with your wife. She must be confident that when she would rather say "no", you would rather that she say "no" too, as long as her "no" is based on what she really wants rather than how she thinks you might react. (She might say "no" because she doesn't want to give you false hope, or she might say "no" because she doesn't want to give herself false hope. Neither motivation is really being true to herself.)Fourth, you need to see if you can defuse your wife's concern about leading you on. If you get the chance, you might tell her even though you understand you can't expect anything from her, you're going to have hope no matter what she does. Nothing she does is going to give you false hope, since you have hope already.Fifth, you need to show your wife that your love is truly unconditional. That doesn't mean that you will approve of self-destructive behavior from her, but fortunately it doesn't sound like that's something you are forced to deal with. What it does mean is that you need to remain focused on meeting her needs regardless of what she is doing with regard to you. And it means you don't keep a mental record. You have no love bank! Instead, your wife has an unlimited credit line! Everything you give her, you give her freely. And everything she gives you, you accept gratefully and without grabbing for more.Sixth, don't drink the beer! Buy your wife the beer, sure, to demonstrate that you're not being holier-than-thou about it. But if you compromise your principles, you're just going to appear weak and needy again. Your wife needs to know that you are strong as well as safe, so stick to your principles.Really, impulsive, it sounds to me like your Plan A is going amazingly well, and you're doing great!

I think we are at a plataeu. I'm still not love busting, I'm not talking relationship. We are getting along very well, but she's at a point where she thinks that the affection she let me show her, and the sex we shared is part of the problem. She feels that she is giving me false hope, and she doesn't want to USE me. I'm a little confused now because we seem to be in a holding pattern. She has made some positive comments, but they are followed up by negative long range comments. She told me yesterday that I'm really focused financially, and we are really getting out of the hole fast. Then she turns around and talks about how we should just stay focused on finances and not on the marriage. She sees the changes, she comments on the changes but the changes are not enough in her mind. I've been trying to be patient. I'm praying alot and staying consistent as far as no affection towards her, no relationship talks, and just trying to be as positive and focused as possible. I'm working out now so that helps but the frustration is starting to set in because she goes out of her way to make a negative comment everytime we have a positive experience. She'll say something like don't take this as me leading you on or anything, because I don't want to give you the wrong impression. Thus taking a positive experience and immediately turning it into a negative. Should I just stay on course and wait for her to turn around one day? I'm starting to think this could all be in vain. I know plan A is for me, and I'm a much better person and will stay a better person for life but the outlook for my marriage does not look good from here! She is so stubborn she will never give in! She wants to get out of the financial hole so she can be self sufficient then she doesn't need me. I'm starting to thinnk that the nicer I am, and the more consistent my changes are the more she seems reenforced in her decision to remain withdrawn. What do I do?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I think we are at a plataeu...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nothing wrong with that. A plateau is the place where you set up camp for a while to rest up for the next segment of the climb. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We are getting along very well, but she...feels that she is giving me false hope, and she doesn't want to USE me. ...She has made some positive comments, but they are followed up by negative long range comments. She told me yesterday that I'm really focused financially, and we are really getting out of the hole fast. Then she turns around and talks about how we should just stay focused on finances and not on the marriage. She sees the changes, she comments on the changes but the changes are not enough in her mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did she say that the changes are "not enough" or are those yourwords? I suspect your wife is not trying to evaluate the adequacy of the changes. She is too ambivalent and confused right now. She just wants the stress to go away so that she can finally have a chance to regain some clarity of thought.She wants your relationship to be put "on hold" for both of you because she doesn't know what to expect. She doesn't want to push you away, because she still has hope for your marriage herself. But she doesn't want to lead you on, because she's not yet convinced that the marriage will work. As she vacillates between the fear of losing you and the fear of being hurt again, her dance between the positive and negative is really designed to maintain the status quo.This is not a bad situation. Time and consistency are on your side. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I've been trying to be patient. I'm praying alot and staying consistent as far as no affection towards her, no relationship talks, and just trying to be as positive and focused as possible. I'm working out now so that helps but the frustration is starting to set in because she goes out of her way to make a negative comment everytime we have a positive experience. She'll say something like don't take this as me leading you on or anything, because I don't want to give you the wrong impression. Thus taking a positive experience and immediately turning it into a negative.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're going to have to be a lot more patient. Treasure the positive comments, and remind yourself that the negative comments are really your wife's way of battling her own hope. She's not just afraid of leading you on; she's afraid of leading herself on.Remember the animals! (Feeding wild ones, that is.) The more you prove yourself safe, the more your wife's trust will grow. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Should I just stay on course and wait for her to turn around one day? I'm starting to think this could all be in vain. I know plan A is for me, and I'm a much better person and will stay a better person for life but the outlook for my marriage does not look good from here!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I guess you must not have a very good view. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Look, you're right, you could still lose your wife no matter what you do. That's a fact you've got to face, but there's no point in dwelling on it. I think the odds are in your favor.Just for a moment, though, let's suppose that you do end up losing your wife. How do you figure that what you're doing is "in vain"? You already admit that you're becoming a better person. You could sure stand to learn a lot more patience, and believe me, if you stay the course that's what you will learn! Furthermore, if you love your wife you should be happy to have this opportunity to give back to your wife after so long a time of taking.One other thing: what's your proposed alternative to "staying the course"? Sure, the course is difficult, but have you got some other plan in mind that won't be just as tough? If so, how do you think taking that "easy way out" would make you feel about yourself? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is so stubborn she will never give in! She wants to get out of the financial hole so she can be self sufficient then she doesn't need me. I'm starting to thinnk that the nicer I am, and the more consistent my changes are the more she seems reenforced in her decision to remain withdrawn. What do I do? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is not a competition between you and your wife. If you don't try to push her, then she won't be able to dig in her heels. As for her being self-sufficient, would you rather that she needed you or that she wanted you?It sounds to me like your only real problem is that you need to be more patient. A lot more patient. You've planted the seeds, but you can't make them grow overnight. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited April 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She wants to get out of the financial hole so she can be self sufficient then she doesn't need me. I'm starting to think that the nicer I am, and the more consistent my changes are the more she seems reenforced in her decision to remain withdrawn. What do I do? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I had a priest tell me once that marriages often come apart when couples get close to the light at the end of the financial tunnel. Then there is no longer any need to be yoked in tandem. I'd say the way to dodge that problem is to make some real scary (and the real ones are scary) projections about what the kids are going to need for college, cars, etc. in the future. Don't explicitly say "we're going to have to stay together to get this done." Allow that to be inferred by her. If you don't have life insurance, or haven't looked at it in a while, now would be the time to have an agent in. Next, what about a Friday or Saturday night out? No pressure, nothing too fancy (unless that's what she likes)--just no kids around and few distractions. Finally, recognize that you alone are powerless to change her heart. God may help you do that. Or He may have a different plan in mind for the both of you, regardless of your vows at the altar. The vows do not say your marriage will never come apart; they admonish others not to try to take it apart. It is possible that God's will is something different. He is mysterious. Imagine what that future might be for you. And resolve that if and when it comes you will meet it serenely. It doens't mean you won't fight for your marriage ... it does mean that you won't be berserk in fighting for your marriage. That would be counterproductive--and has been in the past. Add serenity to patience. Not that you're making a list of how things would be better if your marriage ended--but a list of ways you would survive and even thrive might be a good thing to keep in your head so that you're calmer.

GDP, Those were some very encouraging thoughts, until you got to the part about I might not ever get her back [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You seem to have a very accurate perception of her state of mind. I'm in the same house with her and you seem to have your finger on the pulse of this situation better then I do. I think the thing I don't understand is this. Why don't she just say O.K. he has maintained the changes this long I'll give the marriage one chance, and the first time I see something that resembles the old Impulsive, I'm out and I'm never looking back. I hope your right about patience, and time. I'm not making any rash decisions, I'm just maintaining my focus, and trying to remain positive. OHH the tattoo that I made the big fuss about was a temporary tattoo. I knew it was not like her but I made big deal about nothing. The part about she just wants the stress to stop is dead on! One problem is she sees us having sex or being close as a stress inducer. I wish she didn't feel that way but she does. She feels that us being sexual, or emotional intimate cause problems and stress. She's at the point where there are times she wants to feel close to me but she thinks it's a gamble. She forces herself to maintain the distance, thus making it impossible for us to grow closer. I'm afraid that she will never take the opportunity to see if we can work this thing out. Once you've climbed half way up a mountain and almost died in a avalanche, you will be a little reluctant to try that same mountain again after you've come down and are out of harms way. [This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 04, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: OHH the tattoo that I made the big fuss about was a temporary tattoo. I knew it was not like her but I made big deal about nothing.lol...she got you pretty good there. Probably another test of the new you. Oh well, you failed that one, maybe, but nobody bats 1.000.... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

One problem is she sees us having sex or being close as a stress inducer. I wish she didn't feel that way but she does. She feels that us being sexual, or emotional intimate cause problems and stress.Actually, I think what you have conditioned her to do this by overstepping her boundaries whenever she shows you some kindness. I did that too....it is important to cradle those little moments of progress like a bird's egg and not let them get shattered by making assumptions and letting your Taker make a grab.So, now, she feels like she has to give you a warning stiff arm following any progress.Stay humble, and create a new track record where you respect her wishes through good times and bad, good days and bad. Lack of consistency is thge enemy here...At perhaps a parallel time in my marital recovery, Steve Harley said to me <paraphrasing, of course> "You have her confused now, and that is good. She sees the changes, and is trying to find out if they are changes or an act. Over time, if you continue and are consistent, she will be convinced that they are changes and will open up."

I have avoided relationship talks like the plague for 4 entire days now. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Well she said something to me today that kind of vlew me away. She commented on how nice the house looked after I cleaned it this morning. She said WOW the house looks great! I can't believe how neat and clean you are now. I used to hate how big of a slob you used to be. You know I'm really starting to feel cheated, or short changed here. I said why? She said because while I was in the marriage you were so difficult to live with. Now your like the perfect husband, and it just doesn't seem fair. It took everything in me to just smile. She also said that it's crazy that while she was trying I wasn't now I'm trying and changing and she's not into it. I'm not sure how to respond to that type of talk so I don't say anything because I don't want to slip into a relationship talk. This is a perfect example of the type of negative comments she makes that just kills my optimism. On one hand she tells me that she sees and likes the change, but on the other hand she basically tells me that she's seeing it from a distance and has no intention on reengaging in the marriage. So I guess I just continue to be patient and start to think about life without her????[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 04, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Now your like the perfect husband, and it just doesn't seem fair. Well...reread my last post. You have her confused. She's noting the changes. Still accompanying them with the straightarm....maybe she was afraid if she commented on the house being clean without zinging you then you would offer her money for sex [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

So, she is compelled to compliment you, but feels she has to reinforce the boundaries again. <shrug> (I wish there was an icon for that [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) Anyway, take the compliment and let the straightarm be the lesson it is supposed to be.This is all good, although it comes wrapped in a nasty wrapper. Remember, she has to go through conflict to get out of withdrawal and into intimacy.

God, Help me please!

Impulsive? You OK, man?Hang in there! And don't be too hard on yourself when you're feeling down. It would be extremely unrealistic to expect you to remain on a high all the time, especially during these trying circumstances. Consistency in attitudes and behavior are more important than consistency in emotions, and it is crucial for you to demonstrate (to both yourself and your wife) that you are able to deal with negative feelings as well as positive feelings.You deal with them by accepting them, experiencing them, and then doing the right thing.I'm not going to repeat what Mike C2 said, since he said it very well. However, I do want to add something regarding what you said about starting to think about life without your wife.There is only one reason for you to think about this, and that's to render your fear powerless. Once you face your fear of losing your wife, and recognize that this would not destroy you, you should be able to proceed on your chosen course without so much desperation. But at that point, you should not look back. If you dwell on thoughts of losing your wife, you will only become demoralized. So dig in and determine to do everything it takes to win her respect and admiration.At some point, it will dawn on your wife that she is in control of whether she abandons your marriage, and it's not something she has to do. And while your wife may have "checked out" of your marriage emotionally (or at least tried to do so), it's a big emotional leap from doing that to actively working to dismantle your marriage. The longer you show her that you are the person she needs you to be, the harder it is going to be for her to take that emotional leap. In your current circumstances, time really is on your side.

I guess I'm hanging in there. The waiting game is hard. Patience is a virtue? Who ever said that should be drawn and quartered. I'm very proud of myself. I have made some great lifestyle changes, that really are not that hard to maintain. The suppression of my taker is very hard. I'm lonely.

My wife and I are getting along very well these days. I'm concerned because she'a associating not being in the marriage with us getting along perfectly. She feeling like celibacy is better for our relationship. Me not love busting as being directly related to us not being in a relationship. Separate to her is stress free, and a definite positive. I can't imagine how this is going to make her want her marriage again? Is there a such thing as plan A'ing your way out of a marriage because the new you is so appealling that she doesn't want to jeopardize it by venturing into a relationship again?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Separate to her is stress free, and a definite positive. I can't imagine how this is going to make her want her marriage again? Is there a such thing as plan A'ing your way out of a marriage because the new you is so appealling that she doesn't want to jeopardize it by venturing into a relationship again?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe the answer is "yes", but it's way too earlier for you to be worrying about that yet. Your wife is still pushing you away, so you know she isn't too comfortable. You don't want to pull her out of withdrawal into conflict until she is secure in her current situation. At least, that's how I see it.You talked about the "waiting game" earlier. Just remember that there's more than one way to play the game. Picture a waiting room, bare except for a wooden bench and a clock on the wall. Now picture another waiting room. This one has a large-screen TV with hundreds of channels, a video-game console with a large selection of games, a fully-stocked kitchen, a wall full of interesting books, a set of exercise equipment, and a luxurious couch.How long do you think you could stand to wait in each waiting room?Patience is a virtue. It's also a state of mind.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I'm concerned because she'a associating not being in the marriage with us getting along perfectly.<rubbing temples> Imp, you are going to give me an aneurysm with mindtwisters like this.Getting along perfectly IS a relationship. You are equating a "relationship" to "Imp having sex". We guys think like that.You are in a productive phase where she is starting to like and respect and appreciate you. Don't look for commitment and passion and concern for your needs, that is still aways off.Look at it this way. You are making it verrry difficult for her to leave this wonderful, perfect companion. Time is on your side. As you continue to impress her, her lovebank builds, her resentment subsides, your husband and wife relationship will reignite.It is a shame if she continues to keep making negative comments, because that can become self-reinforcing...she hears it in her ears and it keeps those feelings alive. I think I might look for the opportunity to very carefully, after another negative comment, request that she refrain from that, that you understand how she feels right now, you've got the message.....if she gives you backchat, don't argue or debate, just back down and say 'Okay, I'm just making the request. Please think about it." Mike

So just sitting back and not love busting and being patient is making love bank deposits? I was concerned that if I wasn't giving physical pleasure like hugs or foot rubs, or back rubs I was not making love bank deposits!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: So just sitting back and not love busting and being patient is making love bank deposits?I think in your case your biggest lovebank deposit opportunity is domestic support, and your biggest opportunity for relationship advancement is to avoid lovebusting and annoying behavior and act in a consistently steady, loving manner. I was concerned that if I wasn't giving physical pleasure like hugs or foot rubs, or back rubs I was not making love bank deposits!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Imp.....has she ever said that affection is a top EN of hers? Has she ever requested the backrubs or footrubs? You have to watch out that those sort of things aren't actually your Taker meeting YOUR need for affection, and therefore be a net loss.Withdrawn spouses don't generally seek or appreciate physical affection, it seems to me.

Impulsive, I just stumbled onto you ongoing saga. It is very close to what I am going through myslelf, right down to the time frame. Have not had the time to read all 17 pages of your story but would love to pick your brain and share some of my story. After 12 years of marriage and 2, in Feb. my wife gave me the same speech you got. Ouch. What got us to that point may be different from you, but her emotional withdrawl is quite similar. At least you are having sex, I've been 2 months without. My mind is like a sponge right now. I read up on issues re my situation, I go to therapy (which I always thought was wacked before), I go to meetings. You name it I'll try it. I need the support right now and my wife isn't willing or able to give it. By the way my wife and I are 35 so alot is similar between you and I. Be in touch.Cowboy

impulsive, don't get hung up on how you make love bank deposits. Think about it this way: you've got twenties, tens, fives, ones, quarters, dimes, nickels, and pennies. So you go to the bank, and they tell you they're not accepting fives that day. That doesn't mean you can't deposit all the rest.

Welcome to the party Cowboy. Yeah it's been a little over 2 months now and I remember thinking it's only 2 weeks and I could not imagine going two months. My saga has been a two month roller coaster ride of emotions. It's really been a learning experience that I've haven't enjoyed but am glad I having because I'm growing as a person daily. If you can learn anything from my struggle learn that patience is the operative word here. It's something that I struggle with daily. Plan A is hard as hell, and unless someone has gone through it they can not understand how hard it is to deal with the guilt of bringing a marriage to the brink of failure because of your own stupidity, and having to make major lifestyle changes in order to change the course of your marriage, while the person you realize you love more then ever has absolutely no interest in being around you or with you at all. Plan A is like a radical behavior modification torture technique. It makes you a better person, but challenges every aspect of your old personality. In my case I had to recognize that I was a complete loser of a husband. Once you realize your shortcomings you have to take affirmative steps to no longer destroy but instead mend. This is very difficult because you have to reliquish control. You have to understand that you can't fix it, it's a evolution of a process not a revolution. It's also pain stakingly humbling. Hang in there. If you need to vent do it here. If you have a need to write longer email me at regaldad7@aol.com There are alot of experienced, knowledgable people on this board that have a tremendous amount of compassion, and obviously patience (After dealing with me over the last 2 months) that can help you here. Be positive and encouraged.

Here we go again, Progress I think! Out of the blue the wife came to me eith open arms to hug me, and said thank you so much for doing such a good job around the house cooking, and cleaning and taking care of the kids. She then said while still hugging me that you have changed into such a wonderful person. I said thank you. I wanted to hold her for about a hour or so but I reluctantly let go, because I didn't want to do anything that made her regret seeking affection. I wanted to jump for joy but I maintained my composure. I was expecting a negative comment right after but it never came. I know she notices my strides but it doesn't always seem like it. I'm focusing on doing things unconditionally and not to seek her reaction or approval. How big of a sign is this? Is this the progress it felt like? I think it's important that I maintain my discipline and patience here because before when she reached out it spawned expectations and a smash and grab by my taker. OK what can I do to bolster this progress, or what don't I do to stifle this progess, or do I just maintain my course of action??

Congrats on the hug from the wife. I know how good that must have felt. I had a pretty good day myself. My wife, kids and I went to breakfast and then went shopping for plants for around the house. Once home my wife gave me a hug and kiss as well. That felt so great. Anyway a little later we had a pretty deep discusion initiated by her. She felt the need to remind me she is still not "in love" with me and doesn't know if she will ever get the feeling back. That hurts every time I hear it. I've been warned by other posters that it is normal for the withdrawn spouse to keep telling you she doesn't love you even if love deposits are being made by you. She is still pissed at all the neglect I poured on her over the last 12 years and has to reinforce to herself that she doesn't love me, so she says it every time we talk deep. I didn't start the discussion today, so I guess that her wanting to talk is a good sign. Anyway, congrats on the good day. Cowboy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I was expecting a negative comment right after but it never came.I was expecting one in reading your recounting [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Well, that is progress, the positive without the straightarm. Now make sure you don't disrespect the boundaries you have set. Let her know she can be kind without you making assumptions and looking for SF.Other than that...hey, just keep on keeping on, it is getting you hugs and gratitude [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Mike

Unfreaking believable!!! I'm home all night with the kids. Wife is at work. Kids in bed by 10:00pm, wife does not get off until 1:00 a.m. Doesn't get home until 4:00pm, must of had a few drinks after work. Walks in, 2 minutes of small talk, goes to the bathroom, and calls out to the front of the house to me on my trusty couch. Hey!! You wanna mess around? I literally had to pinch myself to see if I drifted to sleep. Sure, I said. Went back to her room and started at her toes, and worked my way up. Didn't know when or if I was going to get sex again so I made the best of it. Her orgasms were earth movers! So afterwards I got her a towel, a glass of water, and tucked her in and left the room after kissing her on her forehead. I can't believe she asked for SF!! After all that talk about it was not a good idea, and a mistake, I was bunkered in for the long haul. I'm a little concerned that she was fairly liquored up. Does that diminish the sincerity of the request? Did it affect her judgement? Was it just her getting her rocks off, or was it something more profound? Well I think it is very important that I act tommorrow, exactly how I acted today. I don't want to give her any reason to feel like last night was a mistake. Is this a good sign or am I reading to far into a drunk horny wife coming home and asking for SF?

impulsive, the answer to your questions are all the same: who cares? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Bottom line, you were given an opportunity to make a love bank deposit. Take what happened as a good sign, but don't take anything for granted. Slow and steady wins the race.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Unfreaking believable!!! I'm home all night with the kids. Wife is at work. Kids in bed by 10:00pm, wife does not get off until 1:00 a.m. Doesn't get home until 4:00pm,I'm assuming you mean 4:00 am.Her orgasms were earth movers!<high five>I'm a little concerned that she was fairly liquored up. Does that diminish the sincerity of the request? Did it affect her judgement? Was it just her getting her rocks off, or was it something more profound?Obviously, alcohol lowers inhibitions, which is why we all had sex with so many ugly people in college. But....I still think this is definitely a net plus, because sometimes alcohol also makes people get a little mad and morose about marital problems. Better that she reacted the way she did then coming home and cutting your penis off in your sleep.Much better, now that I ponder it.Well I think it is very important that I act tommorrow, exactly how I acted today. I don't want to give her any reason to feel like last night was a mistake. Exactly. As Bill Parcells said to his players who were hotdogging after touchdowns "Try to act like you've been there before."And get some good scotch in the house [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I getting a little confused here. No negative feedback from the SF, things have been very civil, and extremely smooth lately. I have been working hard to not LB and continue to maintain a consistent commitment towards the EN that I know are important to her. I'm a little compulsive with my cleaning. I make her bed everyday, I wash the dishes several times a day. I don't allow anything to be out of place in the house. It seems as though she's getting a little frustrated by my constant cleaning. She stopped me today from making her bed. She said it's ok you don't have to do that. I didn't fight but I was a little diappointed. My personality is all or none. I have a very hard time doing anything half way. I'm focused in on the changes I needed to make and now it's like I'm to focused for her comfort. Can my cleaning and trying to provide adequate domestic support become a LB? I don't understand how no domestic support can be a huge LB, and then to much domestic support can become a LB. I guess moderation is the key, but then I might not provide the support at a time when she really depends on it, and then i LB in the other direction. Has this ever happened to anyone before. I'm scared because the last thing I want to do is turn her off by trying to hard to be the ideal mate, from a far with no pressure.

Hi impulsive,I was wondering, have you mentioned anywhere that you are actually OCD or ADHD?? I am ADHD and I **used** to be a very, VERY black and white thinker. It was:RIGHT OR WRONG DARK OR LIGHT ALL OR NOTHINGAnd it drives people (especially our spouses) NUTS!!How you answer will determine which way I can go with advice for you...------------------ ~Sheryl (a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)Life is difficult. The Road Less Traveled ~M. Scott Peck

Well I've never been diagnosed because it's never came out in the form of a problem before. I do know that I am definetely all or none. So I don't know how to deal with this in regard to my plan A.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: It seems as though she's getting a little frustrated by my constant cleaning. She stopped me today from making her bed.Okay, Pontius Pilate, enough hand washing [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

There comes a point where meeting the Domestic Support EN or being tidy crosses over to a silent accusation that your spouse is a slob. You appear to have entered that zone. I wouldn't want to delve into the psychology of it, all that is important is that it has apparently morphed from meeting an EN of your W's to becoming a lovebuster. Perhaps you need to find a new outlet....paint a few rooms, do some outside planting, take a mistress...but I digress.... No, seriously, redirect your energies. But I would talk to her, otherwise your changes may cause friction. Say that you sensed she didn't want you to make her bed...see what she says.

I'll be back tomorrow,impulsive... I do have some thoughts, but can't write them all right now... it's late and I'm sooooo tired.I'll be back!!------------------ ~Sheryl (a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)Life is difficult. The Road Less Traveled ~M. Scott Peck

I think it's natural for a withdrawn spouse to try to reject extra-perfect meeting of needs in one area when they've developed a sense that needs are not being met in another area. Or when they develop a sense that the meeting of such needs is "going overboard" at an unsustainable rate due to desperation. Or when they feel like there's an attempt to produce guilt in them by meeting some need. Or when they are feeling guilty because they are quietly hardening their resolve to leave.If she doesn't want you doing something, you can't give her the third degree. You need to ease back on what you're doing and try to work out in your own mind what's going on--then probe gently to confirm or disprove your hypothesis. Try again until you gain understanding. Then address that problem.

I am new to this discussion and have not read all the messages, but I think I've read enough to get the jist of it. The bottom fell out of my marriage 7 months ago and my H moved out of the house. I know what it is like to have your partner tell you that they see no future for your marriage, but they probably don't fully believe that themselves. My H said that for quite a while, but he is slowly starting to see a little glimmer of hope. This may seem like an awful long time, but it's not. Your W has probably been unhappy in the marriage for quite sometime. You need to show her that the reason you are doing the positive things you are is because you love her NOT because you want something in return. From some of the comments it appears this is not the case and she can probably see this too. You need to be the best person you can be to your W without expecting ANYTHING in return. Yes, it is a roller coaster ride, but you need to keep your eyes focused on the future. Your W is trying to test the authenticity of your claims by making these negatives comments. The best things you can do is LISTEN and empathize with her feelings. Acknowledge the fact that you hurt her deeply and that you wish you would have come around sooner. Do not make excuses or try to blame her. There will be times where you will not be able to do this, but get right back on the horse. It may take sometime for your W to come back to the line of reconciliation, but you must be waiting for her there with open arms. So many times a spouse does come around, but the other one has gotten impatient and walked away too soon. Find some support from family or SAME sex friends and know that God fully supports you in your efforts to make your marriage work. Find strength in the Bible and ask for His help. He does not approve of divorce. I am currently in a support group called Divorce Care. It is offered by different churches which can be found on their website at <A HREF="http://www.divorcecare.com" TARGET=_blank>www.divorcecare.com</A> I would encourage you to find such a group that will you support you fully in your efforts to reconcile your marriage. Most of them are focused on helping you get through divorce, but make sure you find one that really believes in the sanctity of marriage. It will make such a big difference. Our culture is too engrossed with the notion that if things get rough the best thing to do is move on. The pain from divorce lasts a lifetime so spending a few months/years up front can save you from a lot of pain in the future. If you can make this marriage work you will have a much deeper relationship than you did before or that you can find with someone else. Even if things do not work out in the long run (years not months), you will be able to feel good about yourself - you took the high road. You will have maintained a civil relationship with your ex-spouse which is very, very important when you have children. My H is still living away from home and talking negative about the future, but I know the changes I have made within myself have definitely made a difference. Be careful that you do not ignore your relationship by getting too caught up in the changes, such as spending too much time at work, with friends, etc. Hang in there, the rewards are worth it.

Hi to all, but especially to impulsive, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I have been working hard to not LB and continue to maintain a consistent commitment towards the EN that I know are important to her. I'm a little compulsive with my cleaning. I make her bed everyday, I wash the dishes several times a day. I don't allow anything to be out of place in the house. It seems as though she's getting a little frustrated by my constant cleaning. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It seems that your compusive cleaning **is** a LB to her. Remember, the spouse on the receiving end determines what a lovebuster is!I asked yesterday if you are OCD or ADHD -- you mentioned your black and white thinking.If I were you, I would SERIOUSLY consider visiting a doctor to get a possible diagnosis. You can get some excellent advice -- and yes, even meds, if necessary -- that will help you put things back into proper perspective.I am ADHD and have tendencies toward OCD behavior. I have to guard myself against the "all or nothing" thinking, and also against being IMPULSIVE. Hey, you named yourself that for a reason, I think! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I met my ex-H on a blind date and married him six weeks later. We were married for 20 years. Those two things don't seem to go together, but I am loyal to a fault once I determine to be. I have done many, many impulsive things, some dangerous -- one was to have an affair. I slept with the man once and stopped it. My ex had five affairs (that I know of) and I kept taking him back because I felt a loyalty to him and loved him in spite of his mistakes. But the time had to come to take a closer look at what was beneath the problems that caused each of us to stray. It's sometimes the "little things" that drive people apart finally. I would hate to see something like your making her bed drive her away. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She stopped me today from making her bed. She said it's ok you don't have to do that. I didn't fight but I was a little diappointed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It was YOUR expectation -- not hers. NO EXPECTATIONS. That's the only way to go right now.You have such a willing heart... use it to focus on HER needs, okay?Best wishes.------------------ ~Sheryl (a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)Life is difficult. The Road Less Traveled ~M. Scott Peck

Super frustrated today. I got a phone call from the wife today telling me that she owes me a apology for coming home drunk, the other night and having Sex with me because she thinks she is giving me mixed messages and leading me on and she doesn't want to do that. I said where is this coming from? She said that I have turned into the most unbelieveable perfect husband that a woman can ask for. I'm am so happy she can't believe it. She has not seen me this happy in years. I told her that when this process first started I was doing nice things for her conditionally. It took me a while to understand the concept of doing things unconditionally. That I do the things I do like make her bed, and clean and cook because I love her and I want to make her life to be easier. She seems to be scared of something. It seems like things have just been going way to good for her and she took this opportunity to bust my bubble. Anytime things go good she comes with a dose of reality that totally saps my energy and optimism. I could understand if I was coming to her and talking relationship. If I was pressuring in some way then I would deserve to be pushed away for being impatient and violating the spirit of my plan A. I'm not doing anything but being a better person, stopped love busting, and meeting all the emotional needs she allows me to, and out of the blue she takes every opportunity to break me down and kill my hope. I don't understand it! It makes it very hard to keep striving towards saving something that she feels compelled to throw away. I don't know what else to do. I'm praying and growing so I'm stronger and wiser but my faith in this marriage is taking a severe beating right now. So what am I supposed to do? What happens next time she comes home and says let's make love? I can't function in this atmosphere anymore. I stopped all the impulsive behavior, and she still seems hell bent on pouring a bucket of water on my tiny flame of hope of saving this marriage.[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 11, 2001).]

My marriage really hit the rocks after the XW got some relief from a serious health condition, and after we achieved some measure of real economic stability. In response to my questioning why she wanted to break up the marriage, I heard these exact words that baffle me to this day: "I just have to do this now while times are good."Is there some deep-seated need to have things be difficult? Is there a sense that "well, everything else in my life is now fixed--the problem must be my husband"? Is there just "mid-life crisis"? Is there a desire to stop sacrificing and let others do the sacrificing for a change? Do they feel undeserving of happiness, and thus compelled to destroy it? Or can they just not respect you when they have you on the ropes like this? I'm not sure the questions are answerable. And frankly, if you weren't a good person you wouldn't be perplexed by them. You would simply slough the marriage and children and move forward, mindlessly sharklike, toward the next relationship or materialistic conquest that would give you momentary comfort and happiness.I heard someone say the other day that he knows of no long-term marriages that have not gone through difficult times. Your wife's dissatisfaction and desire that you have a sham marriage until the kids are out of the house -- certainly qualifies. Marriages do indeed die of neglect. But they can also be smothered, especially when they've gotten fragile.Right now, your hyperattentiveness is at a level that has gone beyond unsettling ... and reached (for her) annoying proportions. You need to ratchet down a notch or two, and distract yourself with either therapy that you attend, or a hobby, or some other innocent diversion. She doesn't seem to be in a hurry to go anywhere. Don't cause her to hurry by making her uncomfortable.

Sisyphus....this might not make any more sense than when your wife brought it up but I suspect she felt like it's ok to quit when things are going good....that's what she said isn't it?...because you're much less of a person if you quit when the going gets rough. If you can hang in until things are better, then a person feels like at least you're not kicking the dog when he's already down.

Maybe this would be the ideal time to go to a marriage workshop together and see if she can get invested in the process too? Don't push too hard, but she is seeing one-sided changes and may feel guilty or inadequate and giving you the back-off to even things out somehow.Don't quit or give in now!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: It seems like things have just been going way to good for her and she took this opportunity to bust my bubble. Anytime things go good she comes with a dose of reality that totally saps my energy and optimism. I could understand if I was coming to her and talking relationship. If I was pressuring in some way then I would deserve to be pushed away for being impatient and violating the spirit of my plan A. I'm not doing anything but being a better person, stopped love busting, and meeting all the emotional needs she allows me to, and out of the blue she takes every opportunity to break me down and kill my hope. I don't understand it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>impulsive, you're taking things too personally. Don't you see, this isn't about you any more. Your wife is not reacting to what you are doing, she is reacting to her own internal feelings. She's not looking for opportunities to knock you down or kill your hope. She's fighting her own hope.Think about it. Here your wife is, withdrawn, watching as if from a distance, seeing the husband she always wanted to have. She's saying to herself, "I thought I had one of those once, but it didn't work right. It hurt me and I threw it away." Then come the nagging doubts. "Maybe it wasn't really broken. Maybe it just wasn't configured correctly. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown it away." So she's kicking herself. Did she do the right thing or not? She couldn't bear being hurt again. But what a terrible mistake if she was wrong. She can't have been wrong. The regret would be too much to bear. Which is the greater risk? Hurt or regret? Sometimes it seems like one, and sometimes it seems like the other.So here she is. You're in the wastebasket, and your wife isn't ready to take you back out. But here's the important thing: she hasn't taken out the garbage! Whether she's aware of it or not, she's keeping her options open. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It makes it very hard to keep striving towards saving something that she feels compelled to throw away. I don't know what else to do. I'm praying and growing so I'm stronger and wiser but my faith in this marriage is taking a severe beating right now. So what am I supposed to do?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just keep doing what you're doing! You're in the best position you can put yourself in. Your wife has to wrestle with her own fears now, and there's nothing more you can do except be patient.I'm skeptical about the relevance of most of what Sisyphus said, but he's right to point out the danger of smothering your wife. Think about it this way: if you had a perfect relationship with your wife, what would you be doing with regard to domestic support, etc.? If you are going too far "above and beyond", then your wife will see this as an effort to "win" her back, because that's what it is. If you had a perfect marriage, what interests would you be cultivating for yourself? There is room for some independence within interdependence. You can't have the interdependence right now, so you may as well take advantage of your other opportunities. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What happens next time she comes home and says let's make love?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I say go for it. You already know that if you reject her, it's not going to go well for you. And you already know that if you interpret this as a signal to step closer in your relationship, it's not going to go well for you. But you also know if you give her what she wants, when she wants it, and let her take lead in the dance of distance, she will start feeling conflicted within herself and dash water on your flame of hope.On the surface, all of these outcomes are negative, and it seems that you can't win. But there's an important difference: The first two options bring her into conflict with you, whereas the last brings her into conflict with herself. That last option is a bit dangerous, but it also happens to be where your wife needs to be in order to bring resolution to the present stalemate. So, yeah, you could end up losing, but it's a risk that cannot be avoided. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited April 12, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I got a phone call from the wife today telling me that she owes me a apology for coming home drunk, the other night and having Sex with me because she thinks she is giving me mixed messages and leading me on and she doesn't want to do that.Was this out of the blue, or could it have been in reaction to some perceived or real actions on your part over her "boundaries"?You have identified the pattern...she comes close and then straightarms you as a reminder that there is still work to be done. So, expect it, don't have to win a debate everytime over it, just say you understand her feelings, and let it go. Take the good -- the sex, the recognition of your changes, with the bad -- the need to remind you that she still feels pessimism about the future. She talked herself out of this marriage a long time ago...now you have her in a debate with herself. Keepgiving the angel on her right shoulder ammunition to use against the devil on herleft shoulder.That is the rollercoaster that you have to expect. Your role is to be the stability, don;t react to her negaticvity, appreciate it for honesty, let time do its work. Over time, hopefully, you'll see the highs be higher and last longer and the lows be shallower and shorter in duration.Mike

I'm lost right now. I really don't know what else to do. This situation is not getting any better. Once I stopped love busting and started meeting the EN's that she allowed me to meet I thought things would get better somehow. I'm tired of the couch! I'm tired of feeling lonely. I'm tired of walking on egg shells, and getting no where in the process. My taker is starving to death. This existence is equivalent to torture. My finances is getting better by the day. I've made more in the last two weeks then I made in the last two months. Everything is starting to fall into place but my marriage. I'm frustrated beyond belief. I bought a couple of books today. I'm learning spanish via cassette tapes to excercise my mind, I run two miles per day, I'm healthier then I've been in years. Spiritually I'm closer to God then I've ever been but I'm suffering a slow, painful death right now. I probably deserve to suffer for being such a terrible husband for so long but there is nothing I can do about the past. Plan A is not going to work in this case because my wife is irretreivable. Her mind is so made up she is already divorced in her mind. I have to think about life without her. That is what she wants me to do. She told me today that the changes are real. She is convinced that they are the real thing. She also said that although she believes they are real she can't take the gamble that they are going to last forever. She said that she was to unhappy, for to long. She wants me to go forward with my life, and forget about us forever. Be her friend, help financially, and get on with my life. I'm starting to feel compelled to respect her wishes. I can't function like this any longer. I won't do anything like move out, or start dating someone else but I can't continue to hold out hope that a lightning bolt hits her heart one day and I have a chance to prove my love and eternal faithfulness. She has her mind made up. I know her. She would rather die then go back on her word. She made a very good point to me today. She said the reason I have such a hard time excepting the end of our marriage is because of my upbringing. I was a spoiled only child. Even as a adult I've always had people to bail me out of situations. I've always been able to talk my way out of situations. I've never had to deal with consequences because things always worked out my way. Now for the first time I have to deal with consequences. I have to deal with the fact that this thing is not going to go my way. She feels obligated to let me see that. What's next? How do I go on with my life without her? I'm plan A'ed out. I'm emotionally drained. She has made it painfully clear that it's over. I can't stand sitting up night after night can't sleep, can't eat hoping she shows some sign of hope. She been trying to drain my hope well, she did it!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She wants me to go forward with my life, and forget about us forever. Be her friend, help financially, and get on with my life. I'm starting to feel compelled to respect her wishes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, except for the bit about forgetting, that is what you should be doing. That's what you should have been doing these last two months. What did you think we've been telling you to do? What did you think Plan A was, anyway? It's not some magical ritual formula. It's used to improve yourself and your relationship, and it has already done that for you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can't function like this any longer. I won't do anything like move out, or start dating someone else but I can't continue to hold out hope that a lightning bolt hits her heart one day and I have a chance to prove my love and eternal faithfulness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, what you're saying is that you intend to continue doing what you've been doing, except this time without hoping for that sudden instantaneous change of heart from your wife? That sounds good to me. Those lightning bolts are extremely rare. Healing a relationship is generally a long, slow process. No one ever said it would be easy.You've been treating your situation like a sprint, hoping that you reach the finish line before you collapse. But your situation is more like a marathon. You've got to pace yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She has her mind made up. I know her. She would rather die then go back on her word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't buy your assessment. Wouldn't your wife's stubbornness apply to her wedding vows as well? Well, then, she's already shown herself capable of bending. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She made a very good point to me today. She said the reason I have such a hard time excepting the end of our marriage is because of my upbringing. I was a spoiled only child. Even as a adult I've always had people to bail me out of situations. I've always been able to talk my way out of situations. I've never had to deal with consequences because things always worked out my way. Now for the first time I have to deal with consequences. I have to deal with the fact that this thing is not going to go my way. She feels obligated to let me see that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I hear you, man. I wasn't an only child and I wasn't spoiled, but for about the first three decades of my life, I too always had things work out my way. That first lesson where you learn that your life isn't permanently charmed is a tough one, and it can only be learned through experience. You have to learn to adapt. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What's next? How do I go on with my life without her? I'm plan A'ed out. I'm emotionally drained. She has made it painfully clear that it's over. I can't stand sitting up night after night can't sleep, can't eat hoping she shows some sign of hope. She been trying to drain my hope well, she did it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>impulsive, my friend, what on earth are you talking about. You're still there, your wife is still there, and you have a life with her. It just doesn't happen to be quite the life you want. Meanwhile, you've been trying to sustain yourself with the fantasy that any day now you will wake up to find all your dreams have suddenly come true.I have a feeling your wife suspects this, and if so, it's no wonder she keeps trying to burst your bubble. What you've been hoping for is simply not realistic, and your wife is legitimately afraid that once you recognize your fantasy for the pipedream it is, you will lapse back into your old bad habits. She expects you to crash and burn, because she knows she can't fulfill your fantasy.What you've got to do, impulsive, is accept your wife just as she is and love her anyway. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't hope for more, but you had better not condition your love on the expectation for more.The thing is, impulsive, as much torment as you have been through (and believe me, I know that torment), you still have no idea how good you've got it. You say that you're "plan A'd out", but let me tell you, if you want to experience a worse hell, all you have to do is throw away what you now have.What you need is an attitude adjustment. Start counting your blessings. Forget the fairy-tale ending and work toward an ordinary happy ending instead. And maybe start working on developing some empathy for your wife, focusing on trying to understand her attitudes and feelings instead of focusing on what her word and actions might mean for you.

You could work together towards a fixed date she and you can agree on, perhaps August or October. During this time you will continue to provide her with your best, and permanent life-changes, but that if she hasn't decided to join you inside the marriage by that time, then you will call it quits. Plan B. Then she won't be left feeling like whether or not there will be a marriage is strictly up to her, and she won't be pressuring herself to lay down the law with you right now. She might even be able relax and enjoy and get into the dream with you! Does this make sense, or is this counter-intuitive?

Crash and burn!! She came home from work. We talked and I threw the Hail Mary pass towards the endzone and it landed 20 yards short. I knew it would. I think I destroyed two months of progress with one 15 minute conversation. I begged for another chance knowing the answer. The bottom line is that the only way I could be as stable and patient as I've been trying to be is because the lightning bolt dream gave me hope, remote hope but hope. I'm not nearly strong enough to pull this thing off, with no hope. She says to little to late. She says that it's not about me it's about her refusing to go backwards. I think I just have to face the fact that I took the most beautiful gift God can give a man and destroyed it. My wife is supermodel beautiful. She literally turns heads with her flawless face. She was the most trusting, honest, affectionate, naive, loving, sexually passionate woman I have ever dreamed of, and the most lovingly compulsive over protective mother in the world. I go months and months without seeing a woman in person that even comes close to my wife's outer beauty. Her inner beauty was even more profound before I decided to take a 8 year joyride with her heart and destroy any chance of saving our marriage. She's burned out. I'm a idiot!! I don't deserve happiness. I have to try to stay focused enough to continue to grow my business somehow. I feel myself slipping off the deep end. I'm overrought with pain, guilt, and emptiness! I don't know how to pick up the pieces. I will never find another woman as complete and well rounded as this one. This is the cruelest agony God could put me through. I would have rather stayed ignorant and stupid. Why bring me to the understanding of my stupidity, and give me the stregth to make the changes I've made in order to be a day late and a dollar short. I will never get over this. He blessed me with a dream woman and I destroyed it. I know I sound way out of control right now, but not nearly as out of control as I feel right now. I should contact the Harley's and see if they are interested in me helping write a book on how not to conduct Plan A. I've screwed this thing up at every turn! I think I'm beyond salvaging at this point. I guess I'll get up in the morning and put my hopelessly optimistic face on until I get another opportunity to melt down and do further damage by kicking the limp body of my dead marriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I guess I'll get up in the morning and put my hopelessly optimistic face on until I get another opportunity to melt down and do further damage by kicking the limp body of my dead marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You sound, I don't know, sort of down today. Listen, imp, if there is one thing that has been a pattern with you guys is that every valley has been followed by a peak. Hang in there, don't buy into your W's fatalism, and, history shows, there will be an uptick. As long as you are making lovebank deposits, the game isn't over. Hunker down and soldier on. GDP's analogy about a sprint and a marathon is an excellent one. You got her attention with the fast start. Now find a sustainable pace. The damage to your marriage was down over years...it won't take as long to repair, but it won't be a few months, either.And look for other things in your life that can make you happy, fill some of your needs, hobbies, reading, kids, whatever. She probably feels "your happiness" as an enormous burden, and fears the return of that aggressive Taker when she lets her guard down. Demonstrate that you are a happy person on your own...that will lower her defenses.Hang in there, buddy.Mike

I feel totally different today. Mike I didn't sound a little discouraged last night did I? I've come to understand that everytime we get close and make what I feel is a tiny step towards progress there is a major correction on her part. I've come to understand that the reason that is happening is because I putting my faith and hope in her rather then in God. It's funny because I pray for God to strengthen me through this season and to give me peace and joy through the storm. My spiits get sky high I start feeling good about life regardless of what my marriage is going through. I have a positive outlook and disposition. Then she will come to me and we'll have sex or have a great day together and then I'll put my faith and hope in her, and before you know it she yanks it from me like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football. Then the crash comes and I end up in worse spiritual shape then where I was when I started. I'm praying for the strength to maintain my faith in God and not my faith in my marriage. I love her and my family more then anything on earth. I can't fix my marriage with words or promises. The only chance I have is for me to focus on me, and my relationship with God and my children and if it's his will for my marriage to come back together then it will happen. I will continue not to love bust, and make as many love bank deposits as I can with out pressure and expectation. The Bible says "A double minded man is unstable in all of his ways". I need to maintain this positive attitude in the face of her negatism and fatalism. The problem is I get so high but then allow myself to be deflated. For the people on this board that are of FAITH, please keep my family lifted up in prayer, and I will continue to pray for the marriages and issues that continue to struggle along with mine.

Having a very tough night. My car died today. The only form of transportation I have is gone now. I can't work with out transpo. I can't take my kid to school. Major setback! The wife seems even mmore distant then ever at this point. Very platonic acting these days. She seems very annoyed by my presence. I asked her a couple of times if I did something to upset her, she says no She's just tired or not feeling good. It's 2 weeks before my next check comes and I will have the cash to buy, a car or truck. I'm just struggling right now. I'm continuing to not LB, or ask for affection or anything. I continuing to provide as much domestic support as possible, but it doesn't seem to be working. I'm really trying to remain positive. I'm working very hard not to have the wild fluctuations in my spirits. It hard though. I don't what to do. Maybe someone has a idea or word of encouragement, No car set my whole situation back on many levels. Help someone!

Sorry you are having a rough night. Is the car totally dead? Maybe just in need of repair? Meanwhile, what about buses or other means of getting around? Your wife sounds like she needs a little space...try and focus on being the best you that you can be, and quit worrying so much about her reactions to everything...that is out of your hands. Hang in there--Kathi

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I feel totally different today.Yeah, it must be driving your W crazy [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Listen...the car issue is an opportunity. Solve it and your W will have new respect for your newfound Financial Support acumen. Get to a Rent-A-Wreck or other cheapie rental service and get transportation now. If the car is really dead, sell the bones and use the money to put a down payment on a reliable used car. This is a chance to show her the new dependable you. Solve the problem!God helps those that help themselves.Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I've come to understand that the reason that is happening is because I putting my faith and hope in her rather then in God. I love her and my family more then anything on earth. I can't fix my marriage with words or promises. The only chance I have is for me to focus on me, and my relationship with God and my children and if it's his will for my marriage to come back together then it will happen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dear Impulsive: It IS God's will that your marriage be restored. God does not approve of divorce. God allowed Moses to grant a divorce because the peoples' hearts had become hardened, but he does not approve of it. A good book to read is 'Hope of the Separated: Wounded Marriages Can Be Healed' by Gary Chapman. In it Gary makes a point of telling us that if we pray for God's will to be done we are wasting our time. (Again, His will is to restore our marriage.) Instead we should be praying for God to soften our spouse's heart and asking the Holy Spirit to speak through us to lead our spouses to salvation. God allows us the freedom of choice and right now your W is choosing the wrong path. I realize that it is difficult to see any hope in the future with your W's negative attitude. The hope you should hold onto is your eternal life with God. You need to carry on your efforts to work on your marriage and in time things will work out. But remember it is in God's time not ours - a few months or even years in our lives is nothing when you compare it to the eternal life we will have with Him.

I took a good look at my wife while she was getting ready for work today and My God did she ever look breath taking. It took everything in me not to just pounce on her. Maybe the fact that she was seductively wiggleing while putting on her pantyhose had a impact on me also. I'll tell you this is like torture. It would not be so difficult if she wasn't so beautiful and sexy. I got my car working, it's overheating and smoking near the waterpump so I'll get someone to look at it tommorrow. Everything is still the status quo. My wife is friendly but distant. No desire to get close, no desire for sex, just distance, distance, and more distance. I'm not lovebusting, and I'm still maintaining my lifestyle changes but the hard part is she doesn't seem to be moved or bothered by the lack of intimacy. My spirits have been positive and I manage now not to talk relationship. However I did tell her on the way to her job, that she has been looking exceptionally beautiful lately. She said thank you, and that's it. She asked me to do her a favor, and stop leaving a candy bar on her pillow every night because she has been eating them everynight and she's getting pimples. So tonight I went to the local dessert shop and got her strawberry mousse in chocolate cups, and left it on her pillow. Would it be a bad idea to ask for just a little sex? I think I know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's better to ask here then to ask her.

Pretend you are 15 and too embarassed to ask straight out! Watch her responses. Does she lean into you? Allows a brushing of hands to include a little more squeeze? Kisses you back? Does she Give anything sensual or sexy?Cool guys don't get turned down because they don't ask until they already know the answer!

Lately I have been keeping my distance. I have not initiated any contact and she seems to be fine with that. The last time we had sex she asked for it. I asked for it after that an she said no. Then she said that her asking and getting was a mistake because it was sending me mixed messages. It made her feel selfish because when she wants it she gets it, but when I ask she doesn't feel like it and it make her feel guilty. She then said we are better off not having it at all. I kind of pushed the issue one day by asking for a hand job when she said no to sex and she completed the task feeling obligated. It was terrible. I only continued because I was hoping she would get aroused but she didn't in fact I think it turned her totally off. After I was finished I think I felt lower then I've ever felt in my entire life. I felt like my mother and my pastor both caught me masturbating in the church basement. I felt like a deviant. She said afterwards that she felt my pain, and that sex was probably not a good idea anymore. I do have a high sex drive. She has a healthy one but not as high as mine. I'm a every other day kind of guy. She usually like it once maybe twice per week. Twice since this ordeal started she has come to me and said I need it give it to me. The problem is that she sees that as leading me on, or causing stress. I could release some sexual tension by masturbating but I don't know if it's a sin or not. If your thinking about your wife that doesn't want to have sex with you is it a sin to masturbate? Also the one night she came home and asked for it I just decided not to masturbate about a hour before she got home. I'm so scared that I'll masturbate and 10 minute laters she come and ask for it, and I can't accomadate.

Dear Impulsive,Have you ever thought of being GRATEFUL for what you have? You have daily access to your W. You get to see her and fall in love everyday, You still get some of the intimacy. I know it is Hard but try writing a gratitude list. I wish I was in your shoes it would be so much easier. Keep on Keeping on, And do read that book Hope for the Seperated I have read it four times cover to cover done all the excersizes in it, I feel better at times but I still get very sad. Just be gratful she is still there

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'll tell you this is like torture. It would not be so difficult if she wasn't so beautiful and sexy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can empathize. Many's the time I thought the same thing regarding my wife... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She asked me to do her a favor, and stop leaving a candy bar on her pillow every night because she has been eating them everynight and she's getting pimples. So tonight I went to the local dessert shop and got her strawberry mousse in chocolate cups, and left it on her pillow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm. While that may be following the letter of your wife's request, I'm not sure it's following the spirit. You're still feeding her chocolate. Perhaps it's time to start branching out a bit. What else could you put on her pillow? Love notes are probably not a good idea right now, or anything that says anything about how you feel; but generic inspirational notes are probably okay, and complimentary notes might even be all right (pointing out things you noticed she did that you admired or appreciated). What about a flower? Or a little stuffed animal? Be creative and thoughtful. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Would it be a bad idea to ask for just a little sex? I think I know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's better to ask here then to ask her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you do know the answer. You just don't like it...

Impulsive,I only read a few of the last pages of this thread, so I apologize in advance if this issue has already been addressed, but I suspect your wife is having an affair.Your posts of the last few days describe verbatim what my W said while in the midst of her affair, so it hits close to home. Especially the "sex might send the wrong message" line.Any thoughts?AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I could release some sexual tension by masturbating but I don't know if it's a sin or not. If your thinking about your wife that doesn't want to have sex with you is it a sin to masturbate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, since you asked...no, I don't think it's a sin at all. Why torture yourself? Your situation is already painful enough as it is. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Also the one night she came home and asked for it I just decided not to masturbate about a hour before she got home. I'm so scared that I'll masturbate and 10 minute laters she come and ask for it, and I can't accomadate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's all in the timing. If you masturbate after your wife leaves for work instead of before she comes home, this wouldn't be a problem.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AGoodGuy: I only read a few of the last pages of this thread, so I apologize in advance if this issue has already been addressed, but I suspect your wife is having an affair.Dude, that is what you ALWAYS say [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I don't think so. Imp's erratic driving history is more than enough explanation for why his wife is hiding under the dashboard. I think his situation is analagous to mine.Mike

Well, I continue to believe that there is somebody coming between dcope/impulsive and his wife. I don't think that person is necessarily a member of the opposite sex, an emotional attachment, or an affair. More likely one of her girlfriends. On occasion, she has come home drunk. At the very least, her lifestyle is not conducive to maintaining a secure, happy and stable marriage. Imagine a husband who spends lots of nights "out with the boys" and comes home drunk. We would all say "that's a problem".This "problem" may well have its roots in dcope/impulsive's own behavior. It could have been "tit-for-tat" on the part of his wife, or simply her way of releasing the pressure she felt she was under. But she needs to ease out of it, and focus on her role as mother. Especially since she'll be doing it alone soon enough if she continues on the path she has chosen. Now, I'm not saying that dcope/impulsive is in any position to make any demands in that regard. And it is true that she comes home drunk and makes love to him, which he likes. But the point would be, what's this drinking all about? And is it paralleling or abetting other misbehavior? Is alcohol a problem in her life? It's probably been a long time since a lot of us were last inebriated. Probably even longer since we were in that state not in the presence of our significant other. It's just another issue for dcope/impulsive to take a look at. Especially since a big part of the issue here may be his wife secretly taking the counsel of a friend, bartender, or whatever. Poisonous counsel. Regardless of whether it's well-intentioned or not. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited April 17, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Dude, that is what you ALWAYS say [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, and unfortunately I have always been right so far... Just ask Wifeofcop, Mario, tessa, Griz, mbtrk, etc...Impulsive's W is using the WS vocabulary, which means she found the secret WS code book, which means... well, you get my drift.I can go back and quote from his posts, if you want, and there are more than enough "classic WS lines" in there to raise my suspicions.Remember how last June/July we were sitting here scheming how to get my W out of "withdrawal", as she was uttering the same nonsense that "sex is too confusing right now", while making herself all made up and pretty for the OM? And then we had one night of intimacy followed by the "that was a mistake" line? Sound familiar?I dunno, I just don't like it.AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy: Remember how last June/July we were sitting here scheming how to get my W out of "withdrawal", as she was uttering the same nonsense that "sex is too confusing right now", while making herself all made up and pretty for the OM? And then we had one night of intimacy followed by the "that was a mistake" line? Sound familiar?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, yeah, I remember, brudda.I just think there are alternative explanation for these situations. You can reach the same destination by different routes.I think a very withdrawn mate will exhibit many of the behaviors that a wayward spouse woudl...mood swings, sullen behavior, lashing out, seeking social mind candy outside the relationship. But it doesn't necessarily have to include an affair in every instance.That said, Steve Harley told me that every time he hears of a mate wanting to leave a relationship he simply assumes another party is involved, and goes from there. <shrug> Point being the action items for the BS remain pretty much the same. I'm sure imp will weigh in here and answer some of these suspicions.Mike

I could be wrong but I doubt very seriously if there is anybody else. My wife has said things like she wish she was a lesbian. She wish she could sew up her slit. We have not eaten beef in our home since Mad Cow Disease first became public. She is phobiac about diseases. She is more scared of AIDS then anything in the world. She would never become sexual with someone else. Emotional farfetched as well. She does not operate like that. You can believe whatever you want but I can almost say with certainty that she is faithful. She is at a point where she feels like it's to little to late. The changes are to late. Her mind is made up that it's time to move forward. Us having sex is reaching back to the past. She feels we can't move forward as long as we are still sexually involved. It's also a matter of risk involved. She feels that it took her so long to get up the courage to tell me that she was putting down the boulder on her back. After she told me she didn't want to be married anymore it felt like the boulder was removed. Even thinking about making the marriage work is like picking that boulder back up and walking with it again. It's overwhelming for her and it's not feasible to her. She said your walking around here like I'm just going through a phase or something. This is it! It's real life. Move forward. I think I had my chance with plan A And I blew it so, we are farther away then where we were when we first started. My wife is a strange bird. It takes her a while to make her mind up about something but once it's made. Forgetaboutit! She is taking charge of her life now. She is excercising her independence. She feels emancipated. Recovery takes her back down dark, unpaved roads she doesn't want to go down. I can't blame her. I have to start thinking about life without her. I don't want to but I don't have any other option. Plan A is not working at all. My changes are not enough for her to risk that they will last forever. It's a risk she says she does not want to take. It's a life lesson that she says I have to learn. I can't fix everything all the time. She is a granite wall on these issues, and unmovable. I love her more then life itself. I looked at her yesterday and today and she is undeniably beautiful. There is a very lucky man some where in the world who will have her one day. Unfortunately it won't be me. I had my chance. I blew it. I have alot of thoughts right now. Pain, guilt, helplessness, and hopelessness. I'm not depressed because I've grown enough to know that won't help. I don't want to go home now because for some reason lately looking at her is harder. She is even more beautiful and irresitable when I look at her. I have these helpless feelings where I just cave in. It's weird it feels like a spell or something. I'm starting to think that moving out might be a better course of action at this point. It's not a matter of discipline, or being strong it's a matter of being able to live under the same roof and not cave into my feeling of wanting her more then anything in the world. I can't have her so I get depressed. I'm in a manic mode right now. I go from very high with God and spirituality, to very very low and hopelessness. I don't know how to smooth it out.

Remember when I was suggesting "Move out." Well right now I'm not. Allow her to say the negative things. Don't dispute her and tell her you think it is a phase. Say, "I'm only behaving like it's a phase because there are no better alternatives. I don't expect your mind to change. But you're right that I need to be here for the children's sake, and so do you, and I'm going to make it as pleasant as possible. And I won't give up hope." Now, you may want to read that "Should I stay or should I go" book on controlled separation. I don't think you're going to find anything in there that will tell you to separate. But you might get some ideas how to handle this nasty little situation. So just consider this tough time in your life "Reboot Camp."And ... even though I don't think it's an affair either ... figure out who is the third person poisoning your marriage. Two stable chemicals don't react without a catalyst. Something is pulling her away from you ... she reapproaches, but then is pulled back ... people don't pull back on their own unless there has been extreme abuse. But they can be pulled back if there is a hidden force. That force needs to be identified and neutralized by whatever means necessary.Whatever detective work is necessary ... do it. You seem to be fighting a ghost ... it's time that ghost had form, and a name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I could be wrong but I doubt very seriously if there is anybody else. My wife has said things like she wish she was a lesbian. She wish she could sew up her slit. We have not eaten beef in our home since Mad Cow Disease first became public. She is phobiac about diseases. She is more scared of AIDS then anything in the world. She would never become sexual with someone else. Emotional farfetched as well. She does not operate like that. You can believe whatever you want but I can almost say with certainty that she is faithful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>People tend to see their own experiences in others' situations.I have some very good reasons to believe that my wife did not leave me because of another man. It does happen. I realize that I could be wrong, and I am aware that she may yet find someone else. But I don't really care all that much, since I don't see infidelity as being any worse a betrayal than abandonment. I hope there is no other man involved, because if there is that means my wife will have even more guilt to deal with, but it doesn't really affect me one way or the other.I don't think it really matters that much in impulsive's case either, at least insofar as what he has to do if he wants to save his marriage. Hunting for possible outside influences is likely to be a waste of effort, because there's not much he could do about it if he found such influences. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She feels that it took her so long to get up the courage to tell me that she was putting down the boulder on her back. After she told me she didn't want to be married anymore it felt like the boulder was removed. Even thinking about making the marriage work is like picking that boulder back up and walking with it again. It's overwhelming for her and it's not feasible to her. She said your walking around here like I'm just going through a phase or something. This is it! It's real life. Move forward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>impulsive, sooner or later I think your wife is going to realize that she is lumping a bunch of stuff together that doesn't have to be lumped together. (She may need some help to see it, but I suspect it's still too early to work on that.)The boulder your wife was carrying around wasn't her marriage to you. It was her attitudes and feelings about it, to which your attitudes and behaviors obviously contributed. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is taking charge of her life now. She is excercising her independence. She feels emancipated. Recovery takes her back down dark, unpaved roads she doesn't want to go down. I can't blame her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I can't blame her either, but she doesn't have an accurate map, and I think she's eventually going to encounter an unexpected fork in the road. She thinks that renewing her hope in your marriage will take her back the way she came. Well, she could try that, but it wouldn't be healthy for her, and if she did retrace her path she wouldn't find you back there any way.Your wife is right to want to move forward. What you've got to do, impulsive, is to keep ahead of her. Your wife wants independence? Well, if her ego boundaries were as well-developed as they need to be, she wouldn't be in the turmoil she is now. So, you should be encouraging her to develop those ego boundaries. Let her be a strong, independent person. Help her to be that person. Then, when she has the strength to lift her head up and look around, make sure that you're there in front of her. That's when she'll realize that she doesn't have to go backward to meet you. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Plan A is not working at all. My changes are not enough for her to risk that they will last forever. It's a risk she says she does not want to take.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you keep saying this? Are you still hanging on to the hope of a sudden miraculous fix? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It's a life lesson that she says I have to learn. I can't fix everything all the time. She is a granite wall on these issues, and unmovable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She's also right. But just because you're helpless doesn't mean that you have to be hopeless, and that's the other lesson you haven't learned yet. This is out of your hands, so leave it in God's hands. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I go from very high with God and spirituality, to very very low and hopelessness. I don't know how to smooth it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Every time you try to take control back, you're going to hit bottom. Stop worrying about what you can't control, and concentrate on what you can control.I know, I know. Easier said than done.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: And ... even though I don't think it's an affair either ... figure out who is the third person poisoning your marriage. Two stable chemicals don't react without a catalyst. Something is pulling her away from you ... she reapproaches, but then is pulled back ... people don't pull back on their own unless there has been extreme abuse. But they can be pulled back if there is a hidden force. That force needs to be identified and neutralized by whatever means necessary.Whatever detective work is necessary ... do it. You seem to be fighting a ghost ... it's time that ghost had form, and a name. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You might be right, Sisyphus, but I think there's another possibility. Yes there has to be a ghost, and yes it would be nice if that ghost were identified, but that ghost might not be anyone who is whispering in her ear today.My wife (or so I believe) ran from ghosts from the past (or so I believe). And she gave them my name.

Well, hi, whewI've been reading this thread since yesterday and have spent the last 4 hours at this computer because I absolutely had to find out how things were going. Let me say first off that I only now fully appreciate the value of this forum - so many insights from the posters here. So many things that would never have occured to me. And of course it is great value to me as a woman to get men's perspective on these issues. Mike, gotta single you out - I love your posts - the sense of humour you inject really helps (i love understatement). But not just that but the fact that you are sticking with it for so long and still keeping up with the therapy gives me hope that i can do it to.Now to Impulsive, I think I can sum up my reaction in one word: WOW! I must congratulate you on your efforts. REading through the whole saga in a day I was able to see clearly how much you have changed, how determined you have been. You should be proud of yourself for the strides you have made to turn your life around (forgetting your marriage for a second). It is very important for you to step back and look and pat yourself on the back for the changes you have made. And you have learned your lessons. Slowly you were able to see what the negative behaviours were and what reactions they had on your wife. You figured out many things with regard to your marital interaction adn acted on them. That is admirable. Just remember too that these changes and these marital skills and coping skills are for you too, not just for your wife. I was at first impatient with your impatience but am glad to note that it has improved. The intervals between teh periods in which you lost hope are becoming longer and longer. You have also managed to keep your spirits up (for the most part) in a potentially depressing situation. And when you have temporarily succumbed to defeat, it is understandable. Don't be too hard on yourself for it. It is also heartening to note that you are using this board as a tool to vent, rather than exposing it all to your wife. With regard to your wife's questions about whether the changes are real and permanent, that is completely understandable. After you have been disappointed with regularity in the past, you come to expect it and not trust any changes. You still need to give it time and not lose hope. It may seem like an eternity but in reality it has only been a few months. As you have been advised so many times here, consistency is the key for both you and your wife. There are a couple of things that occurred to me when reading through. Sometimes it helps to get a fresh perspective, so I will share them. Your wife seems to have decided in her mind that she 'has' to leave you no matter what changes she sees, no matter that she might be thinking that you will now make a good husband. Has she thought about what awaits her after she leaves you? If there is noone else, then what is she going to? A lonely life away from a man who loves her? Why not give it one more chance? Don't get me wrong - I am not suggesting you put this question to her. But in some way, it needs to be conveyed. And no, I am not suggesting a relationship talk. But she does seem to have issues of her own that need to be worked on. Just as you are sorting yourself so you can present a more cohesive partner to the marriage, this is something she clearly needs to do. i would make a tentative suggestion that you try to bargain with her to commit to a certain amount of marital counselling - say 6 sessions which might open the door to her getting counselling for herself whether or not the marriage thing works out. Loving her as you do, you must want her to be able to sort out her issues even if you both end up going your separate ways. However, please do not act on my advice - wait for the other more experienced people on the board to say what they think of this idea.Teh other thing with regard to your wife is that she claims that she is sending you mixed signals and she does not want to. Well, if she is not having an A, then this is actually a good sign. If she is sending you mixed signals it is because she is having mixed feelings and thoughts herself on the matter. As was pointed out earlier, she thinks that she took enough bull and she finally made up her mind to walk but every now and then because of your wonderful efforts, she questions that decision. More kudos to you. You are definitely in the process of moving her from withdrawal to conflict. Do not lose hope.She is unsure of the permanency of your feelings, fearing that you will return to your old ways and she will have no one to blame but herself for allowing you back into her emotions to hurt her again. Well, I understand how she would feel that, because I have to admit that especially earlier on, you seemed more intent upon winning her back than loving her. The difference is that on the one hand you would be making the changes to impress her and get her back and on the other you would be making the changes because you love her and finally realise that she deserves to be treated well and have her needs met. The reason I say this is because you lose hope and want to give up on your marriage when she says that she does not want your marriage - so you lose hope because you will not get what you want (to win her back). If you were doing it out of love for her, you would rally on and not lose hope because you still have the chance to love her and be with her in whatever sense. I am not pounding you here - that is a natural reaction but one you have to be careful with. You love her and part of loving her is dealing with the negativity, accepting what she is saying and feeling and realising that she has a right to say and feel those things, but remaining committed to loving her even more constantly in the face of the negativity. Adn you have been getting better at this.The next thing is about you yourself. You need a foundation Imps. A solid one. I remember once, a friend while talking me down from a bad moment, said to me that he could lose everything in his life: job, car, family, friends and still not give up because he knew that there was some meaning to his life, some important purpose. This was not a religious guy and it completely baffled me. I thought if I lost everything, heck I'd be jumping in front the nearest speeding bus! But it is important to ground yourself in something other than your marriage right now so you can be more constant and will not be prey to such manic highs and lows. You say that you have gone back to God. So trust him. He has his reasons for doing the things he does and leading you down the roads you are on. He has things to teach you that you can only learn through these trials. Believe that he has plan and everything that is happening is according to his plan. There is a reason. If you doubt that, look back at your own posts here and see that each negative thing that happened taught you something. Each painful incident with you wife taught you something you needed to know to better fulfill her ENs. So when the next negative thing happens,take a deep breath, calm yourself and ask God to show what it is you have to learn from this one. Life is never rosy, in or out of marriage. The bad stuff helps us to learn lessons we would never learn without it. I am not a particularly religious person but I am beginning to have a faith in fate. You have God, call on him to help you to be constant and have faith that he is walking right beside you. Turn to him first - he is your strength.Enough of my preaching, I apologise for the length of this. If there is anything in my post you find useful, use it. If there is anything you find offensive or irritating or downright stupid, just disregard it. This is meant to help, so take the helpful parts and throw away the junk. Adn pray for me too, okay? I need all the help I can get [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Leanna

After reading 10 of the 20 pages that this thread has accumulated, and not being able to retain even all of that (whereas if I had kept up all along I suppose it would be clearer), and seeing differing views, similar views. . .and a blessing in a host of caring people who want to see success. . . .I feel pretty "unable" to add anything worthwhile. But I have wondered as I was reading all these things if a departure from the basics might not have happened a few times. Most of the time I think that what it comes down to is that the solutions are either right before us, and we just don't like them. Or the answer itself is that we are just plain stuck with a circumstance that we wish wasn't the case. . . and such a case as the latter, then we've nothing left to do but either accept what we have, or sacrifice things we value in exchange for something we hope is to be better.It's been seven years since I started to try to "undistance" my wife. I can easily mark the date at February 94. I suppose that very few of my own circumstances were ever quite similar, but I do believe that before "I" began to try to make these sorts of changes I had become guilty of some of the sorts of neglect that you cited of yourself, Impulse. . . some of the "sorts" and not all of the same ones. Even the reasons were different, and I think all the variables ought to be taken into account. But SEVEN years, a quantifiable/measure of time and I am only just now in the early stages of getting somewhere with my wife. (yes, I am pleased to report some positives, and won't start travailing my own woes because the last thing I dare do is draw much attention to myself in this, your thread, where you are trying so hard to accomplish so much.)My point is that patience is an element of your spirit you may have to apply long, long and hard to get where you want to be. I am not even yet able to say I am quite pleased with where I have gotten, but I can retrace my steps and stumbles and steps again over the past seven years and draw some pretty clear conclusions - chief of which is that I DO see growth, though not growth commensurate with the length of time I have mentioned.My advice isn't so much on how to win your wife back (there's plenty of that), nor how to improve your damaged marriage. And it may sound discouraging because I am talking about vast amounts of time and patience it may take to achieve a goal (in a world where "never" even remains a real possibility). Instead, be encouraged in your own resolve. Make your decisions and take your steps and if not all of them are quite in order, then re-make your decisions and re-take your steps to get them nearer your goal.Be prayerful, ilmfGod Bless

Wow, it's good to come home and have plenty of reading material. Some excellent observations in the last couple of posts. Today while jogging I had a couple of thoughts. The first thing that came to mind was watching a severely handicapped person I saw struggling a great deal just to walk. I said to myself, "and I think I have problems?" I asked myself would that person trade issues with me? In a heartbeat! I felt like a snizzling whiner for complaining about a broken heart when this person could barely walk. It gave me a little perspective. I'm reading a book entitled The Man Who Would Not Be Defeated "It's not what happens to you, it's what you do about it. It's a story about a man that was severly burned, and lost his hands in a motorcycle accident. While fighting back from that life shattering experience he regained his independence through sheer determination. He even regained his ability to fly a plane solo. During a aborted take off he crash landed and all his passengers walked away unharmed except him, he was paralyzed from the waist down, and would never walk again. He fought back and didn't feel sorry for himself and regained his independence AGAIN! This really made me think about my situation. It hurts a ton because I really do love my wife. I hurt because I can't control this situation. There are people that were dealt alot worse hands then the one I'm holding. I'm just going to hold on to this hand for a while and stop complaining that I don't have 21 black jack right now! I'm never going to give up hope on my marriage. It's way to precious to me. When I think about the BS I put my wife through I get sick to my stomach. I literally dislike myself for it. I've come to the understanding that I can't change the past. I can only live for today, and hope that tommorrow brings a blessing that erases the pain of today and yesterday. I'm a great husband right now. I'm a great person right now. I'm a great father right now. I am so sorry that I waited until my wife was in withdrawal to make the life changes that I made. I am also sorry that I was not better equipped to handle the emotional swings that this process produces. I am human and imperfect. I am a very emotional person and unfortuntely my emotions sometimes get the best of me. Those same emotions drive the intense passion and determination I have to love my wife forever. I can't always stay super positive, I try but fall short. I could be in a worse situation. She could have left, or left the state, and took my boys with her. Then I would be even more unbearable on this board. I counting my blessings today. I'm praying for God to soften my wife's heart, and not give in to me but give me a opportunity to earn her respect, admiration, and everlasting love. You can rest assure If I ever get that opportunity again I will savor it and treat is as precious as the air we breath. God is going to restore my marriage, and continue working on me to become a even better person in order to give him glory. Leena, thank you so very much for those encouraging words. I do realize I've come a long way, but not on my power. It was the power of God. Also the people of this board that gave me immeasureable comfort, support, and advice. That have stuck by me through the highs and the lows. Thank You everyone that have responded to this thread. I think it goes without saying I would be in alot worse shape without you guys. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You

Imp....I think one of the problems that people in our situations face is the feeling that 'love' is like a lightbulb...on or off. It isn't...there is a thousand shades of grey between the emotion of "in-love" intimacy and "hate 'em" flight/divorce.You have done a tremendous job in moving the ball between those lines. Hang in there. I think the reality of our situations, and I do equate them, is that in the recent past our spouses would have fondly waved goodbye if we had left. Now, we have them confused...Now, we have planted major seeds of doubt. It looks like dirt but something is happening down there [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

My springtime analogy [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited April 17, 2001).]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think my consistent inconsistency has driven her a little farther off then she once was during this process. I think she has hardened her heart a bit because of the emotional cost of being involved in this process. One of the things I think people should understand when they are first faced with this type of situation is that it is a process. Meaning that things will not happen smoothly. There is a herky jerky path forthcoming that will drain a already weary relationship. My wife right now is upset with the fact that she is being dragged down that path with me. She just wanted to be spared anymore emotional expenses. I wish I could have forseen those expenses, and saved her the trouble. I want to step back and admire her from a far. Appreciate her for her utter beauty inside and out, and ask God to measure my steps, actions and thoughts. I have some progress to regain through patience, but I'm just the guy to do it. The question is not do I love my wife but do I love her even while she is rejecting and hurting me with her distance? The answer absolutely!!!!!!!!! It reminds me of people that love God while everything is good, but can they love God while they going through a storm? It's easy to be happy while your going through a good season. The true test of characther is smiling and advancing in the face of extreme adversity!! Don't show me a man that has had it easy and comfortable his whole life and tell me he's a winner. Show me a man that has come up the rough side of the mountain and overcame some things in the process. That's the winner.[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 18, 2001).]

Your story however long, is touching & painful & I had no intention of replying, because all seems to have been said. So, I decided to tell you a story (not mine) which I find amazing & a wonderful example of what true love is.Its true - I hope I get it right or at least close.A man & woman meet & fall madly in love, they soon marry & go on a fantasy honeymoon where they both wind up in a car accident. The man is told his wife was is in a coma & would probably not survive the week. She comes out of the coma soon afterward & the real nightmare begins. Along with some long term memory, her short term memory is completely destroyed. She can not remember who her husband is let alone the fact that she was even married. This woman who he loved more than life itself could not look at him with anything but confusion & disbelief. The only thing she had going for her was her family telling her she once loved this man with all her heart & soul. He realized quickly that he may never reconnect with his wifes heart again, and that although tragic, their marriage could easily be over. He made a decision based on "love" to stand by her till she was ready to stand on her own again and make whatever choice "she needed" to make. For 2 years he did just that, helping her relearn how to eat, drink, & just do the day to day things that she needed to survive. Their relationship was described as that of a loving father & his daughter as there were so many things she was not capable of due to the permanent loss of her short term memory plus.In time she began to see him more like a parent than someone she could ever love. Through much prayer & time (2 years) they fell in love again & she never till this day has regained her lost memories of her husband. By the way he did not walk out of the car accident without his own troubles, broken ribs, fractured legs & arms, punctured lung, & a heart disorder. They have since written a book & gone back to the place of their honeymoon to start over.I know the real story is even more inspiring then I believe I was able to relay it - I am sorry. I hope you to can find someway to let time help you also heal some of these wounds between you & the woman you love.Slow & Steady (its not a race), God Bless & May the Son grant you Warmth & Patience,TimPS Wow, Some great stuff in these 20 pages if you got the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Maybe I'm wrong but I think my consistent inconsistency has driven her a little farther off then she once was during this process. I think she has hardened her heart a bit because of the emotional cost of being involved in this process. One of the things I think people should understand when they are first faced with this type of situation is that it is a process. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See you're learning dude. Excellent. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I have some progress to regain through patience, but I'm just the guy to do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Patience I think is one of the toughest virtues! And I hated it when people would tell me be patient. HOW!!! SO here is what I am learning. How I do it. I note the triggers - in your case it would be when your wife starts talking the negative stuff about not wanting to be married. I see it, i feel my response coming up, ready to drag me down into despair and impatience. I am about to lose it. SO at that point, I stop myself. This what I would say to myself in your situation "I see the negativity. I know that I am about to lose hope and become impatient. Please God, I know you know how much I need to be patient and you are helping me right now to do just that. I will not respond to her negativity with negativity. I love her and I realise that I have contributed to this behaviour. For me to change things I must be calm and accept that she is just fighting herself here. She needs to say these things and I need to respond positively adn realise that the fact that she is saying these things is a good sign - a sign that she is thinking about it. I love her very much adn for her and for us, I am being calm, not losing hope and being patient." If you find yourself losing it faster than you can think this stuff. Write down your calming note on a piece of paper and keep it in your pocket. Pull it out and read when required. And rewrite it every now and then or else it will lose its power. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The question is not do I love my wife but do I love her even while she is rejecting and hurting me with her distance? The answer absolutely!!!!!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Try to keep this in mind always. "I love her. She needs to hurt me and I love her and want us to have a chance so I will accept her hurt with my love for her."See, everytime something happens, you learn something new or reinforce it in your mind. It is an uphill battle but if you take it one step at a time, as you have so admirably been doing you will get there. You are getting there as we speak [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I toy with religion and God, but there is one concept that always finds favour with me: GRACE. Undeserved favour - those thoughts that he gives you, those mechanisms he hands you to cope and accept his will graciously. These things that he is helping you to learn through your trials. Cause really you could be going the trials and not learning, but you are learning. God is with you. Remember that. I try to.Have a patient day. Leanna

I've been trying not to get to spiritual on this board but when the Holy Spirit shows up it's only right to praise it's presense. Leena those were some very inspirational words you just wrote. Sometimes God says what he wants you to hear through other people. I don't know if you know it or not but I believe he just spoke through you. My prayer is that God softens my wife's heart and that she comes to know the Glory of God for herself. Sometimes in the midst of the storm you just have to STAND. When you've done all you can do just STAND. When it doesn't look like there is a way out just STAND. When people tell you that it's no hope just STAND. When you don't think you have the energy to go any farther just STAND! Stand on God's word and everything will be OK!

Originally posted by impulsive: My prayer is that God softens my wife's heart This I pray for too.....and that she comes to know the Glory of God for herself. Be careful not to let her know that you think this, as she has already expressed concerns that your evident spirituality will drive you all apart and there is nothing more annoying to people who are not ready to explore their spiritual side than to have others preaching to them. You are leading by a witness of how God is acting in your life giving you the help to change yourself and your attitude to her. Do not harp on God at home. She knows. I caution you about this simply because I have had experiences of this too and I have found myself drawing away from friends and family who tried to force me to join their spiritual timetable. God will reach her in his own time and way. Trust in that.As to my being inspirational, I was trying not to give you too much advice on how to really deal with your wife, as I sense that the others here have more experience in this. I was merely trying to help you make you stronger so you can be more consistent in your thoughts and your mission to turn your life and your marriage around. I am glad if God has been able to speak through me.And I will give you a hope from my own experience - one year ago this week, I left my H or rather asked him to move out. It was a complete shock to him and he was devastated. But I needed time and space to figure things out. He in no way ever treated me badly - this was my crisis. And truthfully when I left him, I never envisioned us getting back together. I stuck to my guns because I felt that I had finally had the courage to stand up for myself and ask for a separation. I felt it would end in divorce. But after misadventures too numerous to mention, and much soul-searching and sorting out of myself, we are beginning again - back together with much hope for our future together. One element that has made this possible is that he continued to love me even when I was pushing him away and he was very understanding about what I needed even though it hurt him. He never gave up hope about us even when I was speaking divorce. So there is hope. Please dont think that I am advising you to move out - in my case, it was necessary. In your case I think it is just the opposite - you can help your marriage best by just being there. But I think the time has come to seek expert advice - perhaps it is time to start calling the Harleys. You've come an exceptionally long way on your own adn certainly professional help will most likely aid that effort.But in the end, you are clearly a guy who knows his wife well and is willing to learn the things you do not know, so persevere.Leanna

Hey impulsive, what is your email? I wanted to send you something inspirational (read religious [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I have mines on my profile but some reason it is not showing up here. [This message has been edited by Leanna (edited April 19, 2001).]

My wife is acting very different suddenly. She seems to be irritated by my presence. She seems to be more distant then she had been previously. She did something today that she has never done before. She started closing doors. I opened the door and she was standing there getting dressed. I said why are you closing doors she said kind of sarcastically "I need privacy to get dressed." It kind of set me back a little. This was a first. Initial departures from the norm are always eye openers. I get a sense that she is getting frustrated by my still being around. I had a counseling session today. I picked up two very good books!! My God I don't want to put either down. I've come to the conclusion that I can live without my wife. I don't want to but I will survive. I think she feels pressure. I think me confiding in her the other day that I love her more then ever, and that I don't want to live a minute without her put her in a uneasy state of mind. I think I need to send her a new message. The message I feel compelled to send to her now is I'm willing to be patient, I love her eternally, but I will make it through life without her if I'm forced to. I sense that she getting a little cocky, and that she senses that she has a considerable amount of power and control at this point. I don't mind humbling myself. I don't mind her enjoying holding the hammer for the first time in our marriage. I guess what I'm getting at is that she seems to think that I can't make it without her. I know I have sent that message by my inconsistent plan A and by the way I've been depressed from time to time. However the bottom line is I want to save my marriage but, she needs to understand that I'm not some helpless shell of a man that can't function without her. I'm growing stronger and stronger by the day. I believe that preceived weakness is not attractive. I believe my lack of strength through this whole ordeal has turned her off to a extent.

If I didn't know any better I would say she is acting just like my W who leaves May 1st. I no longer talk to her of our future together as she is to far from me at this point in her life to consider a life again with me. My plan is to give her what she needs right now, which happens to be all that I can give her right now - her freedom & TIME. I plan on using baby steps as in about 3 months if all goes well & "she" seems receptive I will ask her out on a date. She may not be able or ready to come back to me as my wife yet but I hope that a date (very casual at first) will be for her non-threathening & for me much more than a first step. These wacky ideas of mine are not all mine, they are from people using them on this site in their own situations.Slow & Steady Here (its still not a race), God Bless You with Patience & Tolerance & Your W,Tim

Dcope/impulsive,I have spent the time to read your entire post, and I must say that our situations are quite familiar. I invite you to do a search for my posts. I've been posting on D/D. Almost eery the likeness. Many of the issues I face I have not posted but do have present, like the closing door thing. Or the I dont want to confuse you after intimacy thing.Feel free to comment to me over on D/D if you notice something about where I'm at. BTW, what 2 books are reading? Are they spiritual in nature?Take Care, Dara

YOU'VE GOT IT!!!! YOU'VE GOT IT!!!! YOU'VE GOT IT!!!!Your last post is EXACTLY the point of view for success. Perfect balance of giving and Plan A with sense of personal integrity and balance and boundaries! I struggle to get this across to people so often. You said it so well.Whether she decides to stay or not, you have gotten to where you absolutely do "Get it." But don't go away... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Still ... after all, see... it's easier said than done. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

This morning my wife forced a relationship talk. I didn't want to talk but she insisted so I sat and listened. She talked a little about finances, and then asked me have I considered saving some money for when it's time for me to get my own place. I told her that I don't have any intentions on getting my own place. I told her that I love her, and that I'm giving her all the space in the world but I am not leaving my house. If she wants to leave I can't force her to stay. I would not try to force her to stay. However I am not leaving my house. She says I'm not being fair. That she is screwed. I said your not screwed. She said she is trapped. I said your not trapped. She said well since you have all the answers what are my options. I said 1. You can leave.2. You can try to make the marriage work. In fact I offered her a out. I told her that I will offer her $1000.00 per month and get her her own car within 2 months and I would leave and get out of her life. She said what's the but... I said the but is that you open your heart and try to make the marriage work. I explained that I don't want to be married for the sake of being married. I explained that maybe this marriage won't work. We will not know until we try. She said she tried for years and that I was not in the marriage trying, now she don't want to try anymore because she not into it. I said your absolutely right. I understand that she's not into it that is why I'm on the couch not talking relationship, and focusing on the changes I need to make to make me a better person. That's why I don't pressure you about making it work. In fact we would not be talking now if it wasn't your desire to talk. Suddenly my 9 yr. old screamed out Mommy I heard that. She said you heard what? You don't want to be with daddy any more. She get's upset and goes jogging. My son comes to me crying saying Mommy said your moving down the street. I spent the next 20 minutes calming him down and rest assuring him everyone loved him. She came home and wanted to know what was wrong with my son I told her that he is going to be devestated by this. She said I told him that to see how he would handle it and he seemed fine with it. I told her that she really should stop romanticizing this possible divorce as being painfree, and warm and fuzzy and fairy tale like. I told her that divorce is one of the most devestating, earth shaking situations a kid can ever experience. She said well your from a broken home, i'm from a broken home and we are ok. I said EXACTLY!!! LOOK AT US!!! We are not OK. She said I don't want to be married to you anymore because of the past. I said well I can't do anything about the past but the future has potential if you allow yourself the opportunity to be happy. She said what's the bottom line. I said I'm not leaving. You have options though. You can either leave or get a golden parachute. Try. I don't care how long you try but if you give it a honest effort and it don't work, I'll leave volunteerily. I will give you the cash you need to survive and I will leave with only the clothes on my back. She said no I said ok. She said I'm staying here. I said me too. She said well we'll just maintain things how they are. I said ok. To myself I said ok back to plan A. I don't want to force her out but I've done all I can do. The rest is up to God and her. I will survive with JOY any way. I want my marriage. I want to save it, but in the mean time I'm not leaving. I'll maintain my plan A until either her heart is softened and she gives it a honest effort, or she decides to leave. Either way through the grace of God I will survive. She convinced the it won't work based on the old me. I know with a doubt that if she does give it a honest effort it will work because I'm so changed, and I can provide with my strength from God.

I came home after that and she seemed upset still but she let me hug her. I just kissed her on the forehead and told her I loved her. She let me hold her and I just told her over and over telling her I loved her, and I will always love her. She didn't respond but she let me hold her. That's all I can do is Plan A give her her space, reenforce my love for her and be as honest as possible. The only reason I went where I went with her today was to let her know my intentions. I didn't want to but she has to know my position. I want my marriage. I'm not walking out on my marriage. If she doesn't want it she has to kill it. I'm not doing it. Am I wrong for taking this stand?????

You're taking a great stand! You don't want to divorce, you don't need the "space", so why should you leave? If she can't live with you, she knows where the door is. Actually, I'd open the door for her and make sure it doesn't hit her on the way out (metaphorically).This story is deja vu for me, since my W moved out a couple of months ago, after "trying" for 6 months. All I can say is that in hindsight, she should have left earlier. The tension in our household (as she was trying to carry on her affair while "looking for her feelings") was insane. It is much calmer now.She too tried to start out with the "you move out, but feel free to come by whenever you want to". I said "no thanks, you move out and feel free to come by". In time, she bought into the "two home" concept, where the kids spend a week at each place. But I got to stay at our house, and I'm glad that I fought for that. I wasn't the one who wanted to end the marriage, so why should I leave?Anyway, I think your stand is correct. But, I think you are somewhat caging her with your "golden parachute". I'd simply tell her she is free to go; you'll help her pack (the Dobson speech). I think it's time.AGG

Imp, I'm sorry you are having a tough trough here. Your stance is correct, don't agree to leave, but give her room and eliminate lovebusters.Hang in there. You will have to have all birdies and no bogies for awhile now...[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I came home after that and she seemed upset still but she let me hug her. I just kissed her on the forehead and told her I loved her. She let me hold her and I just told her over and over telling her I loved her, and I will always love her. She didn't respond but she let me hold her. That's all I can do is Plan A give her her space, reenforce my love for her and be as honest as possible.Imp....I'm not sure that the last sentence follows on to its predeccesors. "Giving her space' is exactly what you have to do. I doubt that the unwanted affection falls into that goal.I think that the hugging and kissing and ILYs are sort of you stealing fulfillment of your affection EN from her, and she resents it. It may also be what is making her think she has to flee suddenly. Respect her boundaries...let her come to you with affection, if she chooses to. I think these hugs she "lets' you have are bigtime lovebusters.Mike

Thanks Mike I agree whole heartedly. I will stop with the hugs and I love yous. Wow, when I came home for good tonight so she could go to work she seemed very depressed. One word answers, her head hung, seemingly very miserable. I feel terrible. I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I don't think I am. She has this thing about her where she wants to show me how miserable we can be living together now. She may very well become involved with someone now for spite. She seems hell bent on showing me how unhappy she is now. It is strange though because earlier in my journey I would have fallen apart today. I handled it as well as I knew how. It bothers me that she is so sad, and miserable acting but there is nothing I can do about it. She may flee. She does feel trapped but the problem is she wants me to make her decision easier for her by leaving. I now I can live without her! So if this marriage doesn't work I will survive. I will make someone a extra special husband. I hope it's my wife so bad because I love her so very much.

Bravo, impulsive! You did great! It seems clear that your changes have finally been "getting to" your wife. She has had to step up her internal efforts to raise her barriers against you and brought herself out of withdrawal into conflict. And you haven't given her any easy outs. She's going to have to work through her internal conflicts whether she likes it or not. (It's painful to watch, I know, but it's something she needs to go through.)Maintaining the stand you took is absolutely crucial. (Although, personally, I wouldn't have offered to leave if she "tried" to make the marriage work. This is just too hard to measure. I would have refused to leave under any circumstances except a formally arbitrated plan for reconciliation similar to Lee Raffel's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809225131/o/qid=987715006/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-3089218-5845760" TARGET=_blank>Controlled Separation</A>, and any departure from that plan would have resulted in me moving back.) You are entirely correct that she has romanticized the idea of divorce, and it is imperative that she shoulder the responsibility of any decision in that direction, and that she not be shielded from the consequences.Stay the course, impulsive! Give her space when she demands it. Give her privacy when she demands it. And give her love all the time. If you respect her boundaries and return good for evil, she will be forced to manufacture reasons to attack you, and the more absurd her position becomes, the more likely it is that her schema will shatter. Or so I hope.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: I think that the hugging and kissing and ILYs are sort of you stealing fulfillment of your affection EN from her, and she resents it. It may also be what is making her think she has to flee suddenly. Respect her boundaries...let her come to you with affection, if she chooses to. I think these hugs she "lets' you have are bigtime lovebusters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure about this. I don't think we're really in a position to tell. It was risky, but that might have been exactly the right thing to do at the time. I don't suppose we'll ever know.The thing is, she didn't pull away. And as low as she was feeling it's not likely that she would have sought affection herself. Still, she may have wanted and needed that affirmation desperately at the time. Don't forget that impulsive was demonstrating love and affection immediately after she had shown him some pretty severe rejection. That makes for a pretty potent message.All the same, I think it would be a bad idea to make a habit of it under current circumstances!

GDP, I have to go along with Mike on the affection thing. Impulsive's situation seems very similar to how mine was about six months ago (with the exception that my W was having an affair), and I too thought that an extra long hug, a nice kiss, etc, were signs of progress.But inevitably, I would always be told days later that this affection was "killing" her... I think Impulsive should limit himself to showing his love in non-physical ways. If his W comes to him for affection, by all means, he should be a willing participant, but cut it off at first sign of pulling away, lest he be accused (in her mind) of going for the cheap thrills...Just IMO, of course.AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Wow, when I came home for good tonight so she could go to work she seemed very depressed. One word answers, her head hung, seemingly very miserable. I feel terrible. I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I don't think I am. She has this thing about her where she wants to show me how miserable we can be living together now. She may very well become involved with someone now for spite. She seems hell bent on showing me how unhappy she is now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps you're reading a bit much into this, impulsive. I suspect your wife really is that miserable, and she's not just trying to show you how unhappy she is. And I don't blame you for feeling terrible. It hurts to see those we love suffer. But I'm glad you realize that the guilt you feel is probably false guilt. We desperately want to believe that there is something we can do for our hurting loved ones, and we feel that we have failed them when we can't make it all better for them. But some journeys have to be made alone.impulsive, do you really believe that your wife would get involved with someone else for spite? Sure, she's vulnerable right now, but spite requires pre-meditation, and I get the impression that your wife is lashing out without thought, like a drowning swimmer. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It is strange though because earlier in my journey I would have fallen apart today. I handled it as well as I knew how. It bothers me that she is so sad, and miserable acting but there is nothing I can do about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think you've finally gotten your perspective about where it needs to be, impulsive! And you're right, it's just in the nick of time. Things could really start to get rocky now as your wife's hiding place no longer seems secure to her and she seeks desperately for another. Strive for empathy, impulsive. You will not believe how much your love will grow, and how your own pain will become unimportant and easy to bear.The timing, I truly believe, is the hand of the Lord. In my own life, it seemed that as soon as I was finally able to get my depression under control, my wife left me. But the important thing is that it was after I had learned the attitudes and skills I needed to cope. It was as if God said to me, "I've shown you what you need to know, and now it's your wife's turn." God doesn't give us more than we can bear (although he sure seems to take us to the edge a lot!).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy: GDP, I have to go along with Mike on the affection thing. Impulsive's situation seems very similar to how mine was about six months ago (with the exception that my W was having an affair), and I too thought that an extra long hug, a nice kiss, etc, were signs of progress.But inevitably, I would always be told days later that this affection was "killing" her... I think Impulsive should limit himself to showing his love in non-physical ways. If his W comes to him for affection, by all means, he should be a willing participant, but cut it off at first sign of pulling away, lest he be accused (in her mind) of going for the cheap thrills...Just IMO, of course.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>AGG, I agree entirely. But think about what your wife meant when she said your affection was "killing" her. She probably felt unworthy and guilty, and found these feelings unbearable. At that point, she had a choice. She could repent, open her heart, and accept your love. Or she could run.There's a reason why a dilemma is said to have horns. Dilemmas are painful. But sometimes being "thrust upon the horns of a dilemma" is exactly what we need to move forward in our lives.As I said, what impulsive did was risky. I don't recommend it. But it may have done more good than harm, and I hope he doesn't kick himself for doing it.

Gee thanks GDP, LOL That really helped. As soon as you learned to handle your depression your wife left!!!! Boy that's the most insirational thing I've heard all day!!! LOL, I understand exactly what your saying. I hope that's not what's happening here though. If it is I hate to say it but I'll get over it. I understand her pain. I was a moron for a very long time. She endured garbage that no one should have had to put up with. Now all of a sudden I open my eyes, make changes and again I'm asking her to go into what feels like harms way to her. Well I glad you guys feel like I made the right move today but I'm not confident I did the right thing. Part of me thought I should have just said nothing or said I didn't want to talk. I could very well force her hand to do something she might not have done if I didn't make her feel like I made her feel today. I doubt she would get involved with someone but I do think it's possible she could pack the boys up and move back to Seattle where she's from or California where her sister is because she says she doesn't have a support system here. I could force her hands to take my boys across country. Then I'll be sitting here feeling like a jerk, because now my boys are 3000 miles away. I talked to a attorney and he said in my state she just can't take the boys like that without showing a pattern of abuse or adjudicating it. I hope that's true. My boys would be crushed without me, and I'll die without them. I'm really giving her space for a while. A long while. I think my upbeat nature now, irritates her. She told me that I'm very handsome now and she's sure I'm getting hit on alot now. That made me feel good but the bottom line here is I feel like I took a stand that has a tremendous amount risk attached. The other part of this is that she feels financial pressure mounting. The theatre season is winding down and the restuarant she waitresses at is in the heart of the theatre district. She is not making as much money and the daily bills are mounting and that since of independence that she stood on is feeling unstable now. It really make her feel out of control because it makes her feel like she has no option but to depend on me for financial help. She feels like that financial help is contingent upon her giving the marriage a try despite her aversion to the thought of reconcilliation. So I understand her frustration. It's like she backed in a corner to try to make the marriage work. I know I can make her happy if I get a opportunity but it's like I'm unfairly leveraging her dependency on me into getting what I want. I'm not trying to do this but I understand her pain. Wow, am I alive now because I used to be at a place where I never would have seen this from her perspective. I thought she was distant yesterday, today she seemed like speck across the room.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Gee thanks GDP, LOL That really helped. As soon as you learned to handle your depression your wife left!!!! Boy that's the most insirational thing I've heard all day!!! LOL, I understand exactly what your saying. I hope that's not what's happening here though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Um, let me clarify. My wife didn't leave me because I learned to handle my depression. In fact, by that time she was so self-absorbed that she didn't even notice. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well I glad you guys feel like I made the right move today but I'm not confident I did the right thing. Part of me thought I should have just said nothing or said I didn't want to talk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I could be wrong, but I think one of the worst things you could do is withdraw. If your wife wants to talk, you listen. If your wife wants you to talk, you talk. If your wife wants to make love, you make love. If your wife wants to cuddle, you cuddle. Get the picture? Any time she invites you in, you accept her invitation.The rest of the time, you give her space. And if she tries to push you away, you don't budge and you don't push back. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think my upbeat nature now, irritates her. She told me that I'm very handsome now and she's sure I'm getting hit on alot now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you think she finds you irritating, hmm? Do you think maybe it's because she's looking for reasons to reject you and she's having trouble finding them? Bit of dissonance there, you know. Makes her uncomfortable. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>That made me feel good but the bottom line here is I feel like I took a stand that has a tremendous amount risk attached.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, you don't have the luxury of avoiding risk. It's there, like it or not, regardless of whether you take a stand. So there's no point in second-guessing yourself. What your wife does is out of your hands. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The other part of this is that she feels financial pressure mounting. The theatre season is winding down and the restuarant she waitresses at is in the heart of the theatre district. She is not making as much money and the daily bills are mounting and that since of independence that she stood on is feeling unstable now. It really make her feel out of control because it makes her feel like she has no option but to depend on me for financial help. She feels like that financial help is contingent upon her giving the marriage a try despite her aversion to the thought of reconcilliation. So I understand her frustration. It's like she backed in a corner to try to make the marriage work. I know I can make her happy if I get a opportunity but it's like I'm unfairly leveraging her dependency on me into getting what I want. I'm not trying to do this but I understand her pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure what to think about this. There's good and bad sides to this. But in the end, I guess it comes back to reality, and to consequences. What can't be changed must be accepted, and that goes for your wife as well as you.

Well, imps, I have to say that I am really very proud of you. You have come a long way here. You are responding with love to her negativity and, in spite of hurting for her, you are not becoming despondent yourself. Your inconsistencies are growing less and less. Quite frankly IMO I think you made all the right moves. If she wants out of the marriage then she should take the steps for it and that way she will start to learn what awaits her as a newly divorced woman - not that I want her to hurt. But you are right, she is romanticizing divorce. She has a chance now to face the future with a loving husband besides her or alone. It is her choice and what she must remember about you if she does decide to separate is that you remained loving even in the face of the pain she might be causing you. I can tell you that that stood out in my mind while my H and I were separated. The amount of understanding and love he was capable of even though I was hurting him astounded me. I had come to realise that I felt that he was with me because he needed me to bolster him up and that resulted in my losing respect for him (even though I would not have been able to verbalise it at the time). But the strength he displayed during our separation in pulling himself together and also being a support for me earned him my respect all over again. If he had acted all hurt and sour and said "Fine, whatever!", we would not be trying again today. Because I would have felt like he did not love me, only himself. In your behaviour I see a reflection of his. Maybe she will come around or not - that choice is hers alone. But at least you are now secure in the knowledge that you are doing everything possible to make amends for the past, change yourself and change your marriage. And the strengths you are finding in yourself and your capacity for love will stay with you for the rest of your life in all the relationships you have and will provide a good role model for your children. What about counseling for her though? Clearly she has stuff to work out and I know you would be willing to support her while she does it. On the affection, I think you did the right thing at that moment. It was called for.But don't make a habit of it. Her space is vital for her to think right now. Give it to her. I continue to pray for you along with myself. Finding the strength to face my own trials was very difficult today. But it cheers me to see you doing well. God bless

She decided against counseling. I offered. Would it be a good idea to write a short letter and put it on her pillow?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She decided against counseling. I offered. Would it be a good idea to write a short letter and put it on her pillow?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My instinctual reaction? NO! She needs space. Leave her be. She needs to find her own way here. She may feel pressured. But see what the others say.

OK, impulsive, I'll probably get bashed for my perspective, but I'll go out on the limb.You are continuing to describe my wife and our situation of six months ago (just ask Mike, he was "here" to watch the whole mess unfold). Everything your W does and says is identical to what mine did and said(except perhaps the affair), and everything you do and say is identical to what I did and said. So, let me use my experience to give you some possible insight, and a potential roadmap.I kept trying to show my W my changes (which were real), I kept trying to convince her why this can work, how divorce is wrong, blah blah blah. I might as well have been speaking a different language. My W was so withdrawn by this time, that she was not able to process what was hapenning. She saw my changes, she said I was the "perfect husband", and then...she moved out.Now that she is out and on her own, she is beginning to see (I think) that life here wasn't so bad. I suspect that if I had "kept" her here longer, it would have just made her more miserable.My point is this. I think once someone has withdrawn to the point of deciding to leave, you should not try to stop them. Until she leaves, practice your Plan A to the hilt. Your goal is to give her something good to remember you by. When she leaves (which she will, I suspect), she will have those good memories to ponder over while she is all alone (because even if she starts "dating", she'll still be alone).I think I'm rambling, but what I'm trying to say is that the natural reaction to try keep your W from leaving is probably not all that useful. It just irritates her and makes her feel trapped. I'd give her the "letting go" speech, without any preconditions. Just make sure that when she leaves, she has good memories of the "new" impulsive.Hope this helped.AGG

My wife came home from work, and did not even speak to me. This is so unlike her through this whole process. I said to her I am so sorry you don't even feel compelled to speak to me. She said I'm sneaky, I'm a back stabber, I trapped her and she never knew I was such a coniver. This hurt me deeply. She then proceeded to tell me that she has given me all that she has to give. She has nothing left. She doesn't want the marriage. I've screwed over her our whole marriage and all she's done is love me and forgive me and I just spit in her face so to speak today by not having the decency to let her go. She says it's all about me. I'm selfish. People I was not prepared for this. I didn't know what to say. She is very bitter right now. She is harboring a great deal of resentment. I feel like all the positive I accomplished with Plan A over the last weeks was flushed down the toilet with the developments of today. My counseler told me to expect a great deal of resentment and bitterness from her but I never anticipated this much this soon. He said that it's important that I maintain a positive outlook and I still show her I love her through the resentment and bitterness. She really feels trapped. She is trying to decide what her next step is. I doubt very seriously if reengaging in the marriage is one of the options she is considering. It's hard trying to Plan A when the WS is wishing you were not alive. All I could say to her tonight was that I'm sorry you feel that way, and despite how you feel about me I love you. I'm maintaining my faith in God and my committment towards being a better person. I can't allow her to have such a impact on my self worth and my spirits. I love her people but, she don't see it that way. I'm starting to think that maybe my changes are to little to late. Maybe my marriage was already to far gone for Plan A. I don't know what to do but, I do know that there is a very good chance she is going to leave now. I don't see this as a positive development. I see it as catastrophic. I see it as the point of no return. I guess I made my bed so now I have to sleep in it. Please pray for us! What do I have to look forward to next?

Imp,Seperation does mean the end, in may mean the beginning of reconcilliation. I am in th emiddle of sepration been like that for two months now. In the beginnning the W wanted a divorce she was just waiting out the time that we are required to be seperated before filing. Now I feel and believe that she is watching and waiting to see if the changes I am woreking on in me are real and lasting. Dont get me wrong IMP seperation is pure HELL! Especially if you re still in love with your partner. I spent a lot of time in tears crying to friends, crying in my counselors office, but the tears dont come as often today the do still come. But it is not over till the judge drops the gavel and says divorce granted!!!!!!!! Hang in ther Buddy you are doing great

The weirdest thing about right now is during this ordeal I could always tell if I was up or down. Right now I can't tell if I'm up or down. I think this feels worse then down.

Impy, in your last few posts you called your W a "WS", and also commented thatyou wouldn't be surprised if she was having an affair for spite.At this point, I think it would be important to know if she is having an affair. (Although equally important not to have her know you are suspicious).Your Plan A has made its impression...if it is an OP that is stopping progress, than another strategy might be called for here.Do you have reason to believe there could be an OM, EA or PA? Her sudden rush to separate is suspicious in my book....Arguing against it, if she was fleeing the marriage to go to an OM she might not be expressing financial concerns... Mike

OOhh Boy, here it comes the down right apathy and nastiness. She woke up this morning not very nice. I'm just going to leave this in God's hands becuse it's a little much for me to handle right now. If she talks I'll respond nicely and politely, but if she doesn't talk I won't force the issue. The amazing thing is I know I love her because I feel her pain more then I feel my own right now.

Mike the interesting part of yesterdays talk was that she didn't say it's time for you to move out now. She was saying down the line when we are in better financial shape. The stand came and the situation changed once I said I didn't have any intentions on leaving my house. I felt that once she heard me say that she might do something to force my hand like get involved with someone else to send me over the edge. I think she has been surprised by my stances. I think she thought I would give up a long time ago. I still don't believe there is anyone else, I was just thinking out loud that this stance regarding my not moving might cause her to do something to force my hand since everything else she has thrown at me has not caused me to give up. She is very bitter and very stand offish right now.

It might be time to review this article on spousal abandonment: <A HREF="http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://clearinghouse.mwsc.edu/manuscripts/61.asp</A> Meanwhile, your wife is working toward a crisis. The crisis? Stay or go. Which way will it break? Well, that's in large measure going to be answered by what you do. If you stay on-target in your behavior and attitudes, unflappable in the face of her slings and arrows ... she will be hard pressed to find a good reason break away. She will make the decision to stay, but there will be a dangerous potential for her to second-guess herself and hate herself for it ... so you must convince her to get into counseling with you. If she goes, you don't need to worry about her emotions as you continue Plan A. It's your emotions that will be on trial. Bitterness. Anger. Hurt. You will have to control them, in order to give her time to come back around. You think you've already wrestled with these emotions. But she is still with you now, however weirdly she may be behaving. If she's gone, it will be a lot worse. Prepare yourself. Meanwhile, it might be time to do a little something nice for her, nothing overboard. Don't hand it to her personally. Just put it where she'll find it when you're not around. It's just a little experiment to see how she reacts. Then do something nice for yourself. You are facing adversity in an increasingly courageous manner. That's worth a little celebration.

Well, that is tough. Do not give up hope. I think she needs to know that you understand how she feels. You know, whenI told my H I wanted us to split up - all I told him was that I was seriously unhappy and I did not know if I loved him the way a wife should love a husband. He was devasted - torn apart. I can honestly say that that was the worst experience of his life. I told him I needed space to figure it out. He agreed to move out. If he had not, I would have been very angry and felt like he was being selfish. But as to who moved, well we live in an apt owned by my family, so it had to be him who moved even though I wanted the separation. I felt badly that I was disrupting his life and home and offered to move out and let him have the apt, but he said that he felt uncomfortable. In your case, I really think your W should be the one to move out. For later purposes, if it comes down to custody and so on, you don't want to be accused of abandoning the family home. But I understand how she would feel trapped. I am going to say something here that I feel needs to be said but that I know some people might take issue with. In terms of the financial situation, she is your W and she has supported you and tried to love you through many hard times. What is yours is hers too. And if she is bent on this separation, forcing her to stay with financial blackmail is wrong. Remember, you want her to know that you love her and support her. I am not saying that you should leave, but I think you should make it clear to her that if she needs space and she wants to move out, then you will help her financially. If she feels backed into a corner she may well take your kids and move to another state. You perhaps should explore the possibilities of a legal separation - with some ground rules. Just a few, she will not move out of your town. The kids will alternate between you and her. You will always have access to them. You will give her a certain amount of financial assistance during the separation AND she will agree to a specified number of counseling sessions. I think this last one is important. I know if she is not ready it will not help her. But maybe, it will help her to see that while you support her, and want her to be happy and not feel trapped, you are still committed to saving your marriage. Make it clear that you are not trying to trade your financial assistance for her agreement to counselling but you are trying to fairly address both of your needs. She needs to move out and she needs money to do it. You need to keep trying at the marriage. So you are trying to come to an agreement with her about how both of these needs can be met. Point out to her that if you do end up separating permanently (do not use the D word), then as she said in the beginning you all will want to be compatible for the sake of your children. And being able to come to an agreement on this now will set the stage for future agreements about your children and your joint actions whether it is in the forum of your marriage or your separation.After I told my H I needed space, he took a few weeks to move out and I felt annoyed about it. Tried not to show it because he was in such pain. And I felt guilty for feeling anxious for him to be gone, but his prescence irritated me. And I began to dislike him a bit and feel he was selfish.I am not trying to advise you really on what to do. I am just giving you my reactions, maybe some food for thought. Your W needs to be honest with you about what she is feeling so that you can help her by being supportive even if what she wants is not what you want. That is love IMO. Talk it over with your counselor. Talk over with the other people here. But her concerns need to be addressed otherwise she will think that you are being selfish and are only concerned about your own needs, and in a way, you are. Just IMO.God bless Leanna

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy: My point is this. I think once someone has withdrawn to the point of deciding to leave, you should not try to stop them. Until she leaves, practice your Plan A to the hilt. Your goal is to give her something good to remember you by. When she leaves (which she will, I suspect), she will have those good memories to ponder over while she is all alone (because even if she starts "dating", she'll still be alone).I think I'm rambling, but what I'm trying to say is that the natural reaction to try keep your W from leaving is probably not all that useful. It just irritates her and makes her feel trapped. I'd give her the "letting go" speech, without any preconditions. Just make sure that when she leaves, she has good memories of the "new" impulsive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I strongly agree with this, although I don't know what the "letting go" speech is. If your wife decides to leave, impulsive, let her leave and compare two realities, as opposed to a reality and a fantasy. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I said to her I am so sorry you don't even feel compelled to speak to me. She said I'm sneaky, I'm a back stabber, I trapped her and she never knew I was such a coniver. This hurt me deeply. She then proceeded to tell me that she has given me all that she has to give. She has nothing left. She doesn't want the marriage. I've screwed over her our whole marriage and all she's done is love me and forgive me and I just spit in her face so to speak today by not having the decency to let her go. She says it's all about me. I'm selfish. People I was not prepared for this. I didn't know what to say.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First off, it probably wasn't such a good idea to trigger a conversation the way you did. You invited the reaction you got. As for the rest of it, I wonder what your wife thinks "letting her go" looks like? What is it that she wants from you? So far, her only proposal seems to have been for you to move out, but I have a hard time equating running out on your family with giving your wife her freedom.Your wife can say that you're selfish, and that this is all about you, but her words and actions indicate otherwise. When she told your son that you were going to move out (which was an despicable and manipulative act), she made it pretty clear that this is actually all about her.The bottom line is that there really was nothing you could say. All you could do is listen and try to understand her feelings (in other words, treat it as an empathy building exercise). Because your wife was not making rational sense. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is very bitter right now. She is harboring a great deal of resentment. I feel like all the positive I accomplished with Plan A over the last weeks was flushed down the toilet with the developments of today. My counseler told me to expect a great deal of resentment and bitterness from her but I never anticipated this much this soon. He said that it's important that I maintain a positive outlook and I still show her I love her through the resentment and bitterness. She really feels trapped. She is trying to decide what her next step is. I doubt very seriously if reengaging in the marriage is one of the options she is considering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well congratulations, impulsive! It looks like your wife is actually ahead of even your timetable for a change! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But as your counselor warned you, this is not unexpected and it is not really a setback. I know it feels that way, but in the bigger picture, it's not.No, re-engaging in the marriage is not something your wife is considering right now, but until one of you burns a bridge or two, the option will still be on the table for her. She needs more time. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe my marriage was already to far gone for Plan A. I don't know what to do but, I do know that there is a very good chance she is going to leave now. I don't see this as a positive development. I see it as catastrophic. I see it as the point of no return.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If your marriage was already too far gone, then your wife wouldn't be experiencing all this inner turmoil.Quite frankly, impulsive, your wife may need to leave before she can come back. So seeing such an event as a catastrophic point of no return is inappropriate. Would it be a positive development? I wouldn't go that far. It would be devastating to your kids, and it would sharply reduce your opportunities for Plan A. But that doesn't change the fact that there are some things that some people can learn only through experience.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Leanna: I am going to say something here that I feel needs to be said but that I know some people might take issue with. In terms of the financial situation, she is your W and she has supported you and tried to love you through many hard times. What is yours is hers too. And if she is bent on this separation, forcing her to stay with financial blackmail is wrong. Remember, you want her to know that you love her and support her. I am not saying that you should leave, but I think you should make it clear to her that if she needs space and she wants to move out, then you will help her financially. If she feels backed into a corner she may well take your kids and move to another state. You perhaps should explore the possibilities of a legal separation - with some ground rules. Just a few, she will not move out of your town. The kids will alternate between you and her. You will always have access to them. You will give her a certain amount of financial assistance during the separation AND she will agree to a specified number of counseling sessions. I think this last one is important. I know if she is not ready it will not help her. But maybe, it will help her to see that while you support her, and want her to be happy and not feel trapped, you are still committed to saving your marriage. Make it clear that you are not trying to trade your financial assistance for her agreement to counselling but you are trying to fairly address both of your needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I for one am not going to take issue with this. What you're describing sounds a lot like what Lee Raffel calls <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809225131/o/qid=987778392/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-3089218-5845760" TARGET=_blank>Controlled Separation</A>, and the key to it is negotiation. I think it may be worth a try, especially if a counselor can be involved in establishing the terms (since such involvement could easily lead to further counseling).The catch is, negotiation requires a certain clarity of mind, and I think it's questionable whether impulsive's wife is in such a state right now. Still, it may not hurt to ask. Personally, I would be inclined to ease into such a discussion by asking the question I asked earlier: what, to impulsive's wife, does "letting go" of her mean?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: The stand came and the situation changed once I said I didn't have any intentions on leaving my house.That is the correct answer. Kind but firm. Even though it may seem that a lack of financial resources is keeping you together right now, I still suspect that FS is a major issue holding her heart back. If you can get to a point where she sees an uptrend to prosperity, and a divorce would plunge you guys back to struggling, her head may allow her heart back into the marriage.How are you doing there? Are you still working two jobs? How did the car situation sort itself out? Do you have a game plan to meeting her FS needs better? I think that is the place to focus, not on unwanted hugs, buddy.Mike

Was looking through the Q&A columns and came across the following. It made me think of your situation immediately. Thought I'd post it to give you renewed strength. Haven't heard from you in a while. Hope all is well. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Dear Dr. Harley, My wife of almost 30 years has filed for divorce. She is intending to move out next month, and to another state this summer. Neither of us have ever had an affair, nor have there been addictions, abuse, or financial problems. She is hurt by my past decisions concerning where we lived (in Europe for a six year period when she wanted to be elsewhere), how I treated the children, financial issues and, in general, making decisions without considering her input. It caused her to feel unloved, unequal, unrespected and unadmired by me. Now almost 10 years later after Prozac and 30 therapy sessions she wants out of the marriage. When I made those decisions I wasn't aware of the Policy of Joint Agreement or the effect of my decisions on her Love Bank. I thought I was doing the right thing and that she would appreciate my leadership in the family. But now I know I made terrible mistakes throughout our marriage. I've taken several marriage enrichment courses (alone since she won't go), read several self-help books, and also seen a therapist at least 8 times to see what I can do to help her and myself. She went with me once but didn't like him because he was trying to save our marriage. I'm not trying to control her, but no one she talks to seems to feel that marriages can be saved when a spouse (me) is willing to change his behavior. I am on good terms with our children and love my wife, but her spirit is shut down. I still love her but I am beginning to wonder if it is time to stop trying, or is there some hope or method yet that I have not considered. What do you suggest I do? C.S.Dear C.S., I suggest you keep trying to reconcile right up to the day she moves out, then up to the day you are divorced, and then continue on for about two years beyond your divorce. Your wife's Love Bank is so far in the red that she probably can't even see the bottom of the well. But each time you do something to make her feel good, and avoid doing something that annoys her, your reduce the deficit. She probably hates you right now because her Love Bank balance is so negative. But eventually, you will have deposited enough love units to break even. From then on, you will be depositing into the black, and she will like you again. With more deposits, she will eventually love you, and your marriage will be restored. Your wife is suffering from deep resentment that developed over a lifetime. She does not want to forgive you for the mistakes you made during your marriage, and she certainly can't forget. Her Taker reminds her of her lost years, when she was forced to live according to your plans and your schedule. It reminds her of the times she begged you to consider her feelings, and how you ignored her pleas. She is reminded of her overwhelming feeling of loneliness, and hopelessness that made her consider suicide on numerous occasions. How could she ever forgive a man who put her through all of that. It's no wonder your wife wants to make her own choices from now on, and her first choice is to leave the prison. She has probably been counting the days that your children would be on their own so she could be on her own. Every effort you are now making to keep her with you will be interpreted as the same oppressive control that she endured throughout your marriage. Your wife is now in the state of emotional withdrawal, which makes it difficult for you to deposit love units into her Love Bank. She does not want you to try to meet her emotional needs because she does not believe you will ever be able to make her happy. She thinks that as soon as she drops her defenses, you will trap her, and she will be under your control again. For a while, she may want to regain total control of her life so that she knows what it feels like. Once she has regained control, however, she may miss what it was you did for her. After all, none of us can meet our own emotional needs, they can only be met by someone else. That's what marriage is all about. She may be willing to re-enter her relationship with you on new terms. If you can meet her needs without it costing her control of her life, you will have made a deal that will compensate her for some of the pain she has suffered. From there her generosity toward you may carry her the rest of the way to forgiveness. Interestingly enough, a sign of her trusting you may take the form of anger and resentment. If she changes from withdrawal to the state of conflictF (which is an improvement), she will tell you how angry she is, and blame you for all of her depression. Her Taker will release its storehouse of resentment. Her shaming of you, and her disrespect will be hard for you to take, but it will give you an opportunity to hear from her Taker what she wants from you. You will have an opportunity to make a deal with her to compensate her for all of the pain she has suffered. If you can get though her attack without losing too many of her love units in your love bank, you will gain valuable information, and an opportunity from your wife to implement change. Read "Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage" in my Basic Concepts section of the web site for more information about how states of mind effect your negotiating strategy. You should also read Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility. If you read it now, you can start applying its principles while she is still with you, and follow through on them after she has left. Pay close attention to the chapters on the Love Busters, Disrespectful Judgments and Selfish Demands, because they will get you into a ton of trouble if you persist in them while she is still around. My article, in the articles section, entitled "Why Women Leave Men" may also be helpful to you. If possible, make a copy for your wife to read and see if she agrees with me. The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse) is the ultimate equalizer in marriage. Your wife's stated reason for leaving you is that her feelings have not been taken into account whenever you have made decisions, and she feels like the caboose on a train. All her married life she felt out of control. The Policy of Joint Agreement will change all of that for both of you, and if you try to reconcile with care and consideration for her feelings, you and your wife will have years to practice using it together. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had a hard time last night. Little things like her not saying goodnight, and her coming home and just going into her room and going to sleep bothers the heck out of me. I'm starting to question my resolve a little. Is this all worth it. She seems to be in the mode where it's like well if you want to stay here you can stay but there will be minimum interaction, no affection, limited convesation, and sooner or later he will get tired of that and leave. If that's her thinking it's getting more and more effective. It's not just the lack of SF, it's also conversation, affection, admiration. I'm lonely and my spirits are about to take a down turn. I have'nt been here for a while now so I don't feel so bad. I was thinking may it's not going to turn around. Or it could be like that saying a watched pot never boils. Whatever the case I'm a little frustrated right now getting a little discouraged and hopefully someone can say something the will encourage me. Please I'm dying here.

Imps this sounds tough indeed. You gotta hang in there buddy. Did you read that letter I posted above this from Dr H. The guy in that letter was facing alot of stuff that you are facing. And what surprised me is that Dr H recommended that he keep Plan Aing even after the separation adn divorce. It is a hard thing to do I think. All I can tell you is to keep Plan Aing and don't try to look for a positive reaction from her at all. I understand that the little positives you were getting are being taken away. And that is tough. Just keep repeating to yourself that you love her and that you are doing this for that reason and even if what she is doing is hurting you right now, the best you can do is keep loving her in an open and non-threatening fashion. As you said before it is easy to love someone who is treating you well. The real test is to love someone who is giving you little encouragement. And always remember that for years your wife was in your position -loving you when you did not seem like you were loving her back. Don't let this hurt your resolve to do your best for yourself and your marriage. Stay firm and pray for guidance and strength. I am praying for you. God is with Imps. He knows what you are suffering - just think of the situation as God testing you adn pass the test [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Thinking of you Leanna

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Had a hard time last night. Little things like her not saying goodnight, and her coming home and just going into her room and going to sleep bothers the heck out of me. I'm starting to question my resolve a little. Is this all worth it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Go ahead and question. When you tally up the price for staying the course, and the price for quitting, I think you'll find that while they're both extremely costly, the price for quitting is higher. Furthermore, the rewards offered by quitting are no more guaranteed than the rewards offered by staying.I think the more you understand why you are doing what you are doing, the stronger your resolve will become. Right now, I think your resolve is primarily under attack by your frustration. You're chafing at the short-term unfairness of the situation (forgetting the long-term aspects), and you're having a hard time dealing with your inability to fix or control the situation. When you're not used to having no control, there is a strong temptation to relieve your frustration by taking control.The only way you can seem to control the situation is by taking the initiative and walking out of it. What you have to realize is that such "control" is an illusion, a meaningless salve to the ego. You cannot control the situation, impulsive. You can only control yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She seems to be in the mode where it's like well if you want to stay here you can stay but there will be minimum interaction, no affection, limited convesation, and sooner or later he will get tired of that and leave.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If it's a waiting game she wants, well, both of you can play. But you want to watch carefully, though, that your wife is not sinking into a real depression. That she is avoiding you is only to be expected. That she is heading for bed immediately upon coming home is not a good sign. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If that's her thinking it's getting more and more effective. It's not just the lack of SF, it's also conversation, affection, admiration. I'm lonely and my spirits are about to take a down turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's good that you recognize this coming down turn, and that you don't think you can muscle your way through the emotional isolation by force of will alone. But now that you recognize what's coming, you can take steps to forestall it. You've got to find some local emotional support (not another woman, of course). You need to find someone to talk to, someone who will support you and the stand you are taking.When my wife moved out the first time, I went to my parents and one local friend for support. That was all the support I needed, since my wife and I were still working on our relationship. When she moved out the second time, cutting off all contact with me and then filing for divorce, I recognized immediately that I needed all the help I could get. I sought and got support from as many friends as I could find, even going back to renew contact with friends I hadn't seen or spoken to in years.The good thing about my situation and yours, impulsive, is that we do not have to reveal dirty secrets in order to get support. We don't have to tear down our wives in order to get support; we can defend our wives and urge sympathy for them and still get the support we need.

Well the difficult part from my percpective is that she seems to be so miserable with her current circumstances. I know for a fact that had I had my wake up call a long time ago we would be so much happier now. I also know that if she could allow herself to give the marriage one more college try, we could and would be extremely happy. She is struggling with her own internal issues also that have nothing to do with me. The nicer I am the more impatient and cranky she seems to get. I really don't like waiting game because it seems like such a war of atrition. Let's make love not war! The very nice weather did not help my mood today. It was actually depressing. Depressing because spring reminds me of summer and family fun, and outside family activities. Seeing that my marriage is somewhere between a rock and a hard place I don't feel the 70 degree beautiful day optimism that I'm sure millions felt after a long cold winter. Support is a interesting question. Friends that don't have any MB sense or relationship saving expertice can be distracting. Having someone tell you that your being a fool go and put your foot down while you in the middle of a pretty successful plan A can set you back little.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Well the difficult part from my percpective is that she seems to be so miserable with her current circumstances. I know for a fact that had I had my wake up call a long time ago we would be so much happier now. I also know that if she could allow herself to give the marriage one more college try, we could and would be extremely happy. She is struggling with her own internal issues also that have nothing to do with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My wife's pain is the most difficult part for me to deal with also. But, impulsive, you don't know for a fact that your wife would have been spared this misery if your wakeup call had come earlier. As you say yourself, she has her own internal issues that have nothing to do with you. Maybe she would have had to come to this point in any case in order to work through those issues.I made plenty of mistakes in my marriage, out of ignorance and misunderstanding. I know my depression was hard on my wife. But even when I was at my most depressed, I dragged myself out of bed when I needed to, and I fulfilled my responsibilities. I truly believe that my wife could not have had a better husband than me. We were very complementary, in ways that encouraged both of us to grow, and I was d****** good to her.She left me anyway.There's really no point in second-guessing at this stage. God can work out good from any situation if we let him.

I working to maintain a positive attitude and not let things bother me. I did say something to her today about her not saying goodnight. I then felt stupid immediately. She said that she was not intending on going to sleep, she just drifted off, and then I came and woke her up saying why didn't you say goodnight. No matter how hard I try little stupid things like that seem to get under my skin then I respond and can't see the forest for the trees. Afterwards I'm left feeling like the village idiot. I need to reach the point where I don't care anymore. Controlled apathy. Apathy that allows me to stop responding to every little percieved slight, and yet able to come across as loving and supportive.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I need to reach the point where I don't care anymore. Controlled apathy. Apathy that allows me to stop responding to every little percieved slight, and yet able to come across as loving and supportive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not controlled apathy. Controlled empathy. Where you don't respond to a perceived slight because you automatically look for a way not to see it as a slight.

I'm at a strange place right now mentally. On one hand I am extremely frustrated with the apparent level of apathy that the wife exhibits more and more on a daily basis. She seems more distant by the day. For some reasoon it seems like she is more determined then ever to not reengage in the marriage. Last night I was very depressed. I go out of my way not to let her know or notice my depression. Tonight I feel more energized and patient. I don't know why but I feel as though I can endure. I'm hurting and it don't feel good but, I understand that she felt like I feel for a long time so to give up at this point would be like a easy escape. I will endure as long as it takes, until A) there is infidelity B) this situation becomes counterproductive to the emotional or mental well being of my children. I'm one of those people that believe that adults should get past their hangups for the kid's sake. The kid's never asked to be here. We as parents have a unbelievable responsibility to provide our children with stable, loving, and nurturing homes equipped with two parents. I pray that God softens her heart and I have a opportunity to be a example of what God can turn around if you allow him to.

Give it all up to God tonight, Imp. Do your best, walk in God's will, and let her have her space to make her decisions. Your kids will get through if you stay in your plan and keep close to God. God loves you. Pray that your wife is filled with His love tonight too. This is a really big change for all of you. No one knows how she is going to come out ultimately. So don't lose faith. You have a lifetime committed to her already. Just keep on the narrow path.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I will endure as long as it takes, until A) there is infidelity B) this situation becomes counterproductive to the emotional or mental well being of my children. [QUOTE]I am glad to see that you have yoru boundaries but I have to say that I take issue with the first one - even if there is infidelity, your marriage can still be saved. If it were not so, I would not be here and neither would lots of the other people here. I stand in awe of K, who W produced a child out of the A and they are raising the child as a part of their family and still working on their marriage. So be careful about your boundaries. [QUOTE] I'm one of those people that believe that adults should get past their hangups for the kid's sake. The kid's never asked to be here. We as parents have a unbelievable responsibility to provide our children with stable, loving, and nurturing homes equipped with two parents. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Quite right, but um, don't let your wife hear you voice these sentiments because she will blast and rightly so - because she will ask how come you did not succumb to this philosophy all those years when you were 'farting' around, eh? Just a caution.With regard to your kids, I have been meaning to ask how you are helping them to deal with this. I do not have kids and would suggest that if you need help on that, you start a new thread and ask the parents here for the help that you might need. But I do believe that you should be as honest as is appropriate for their age and recognize that they must be stressed out by this too. Admit to them that you and mommy are having problems but you are doing your best to resolve them and that BOTH you and mommy love them veyr much and always will no matter what. I am not a big fan of counseling for kids unless it is absolutely necessary but it might help if they can talk to someone about the confusions and fears that they are feeling. It is very important to let them know that this is an adult problem and they are not required to take sides with one parent or the other - they can still love both their parents equally. I remember that was an issue that I had to deal with as a kid.Anyway, congrats on keeping it together. God bless.Leanna

dcope/impulsive,How much have you and the wife spoken of money lately? What does she know about what's coming in, and what's in the pipeline? Does she get concrete details from you? In a format she can understand? She needs to know that you're doing enough. That you're doing all you can. That things are looking up. And that you're selflessly doing this even though major progress will be accompanied by her gaining the perceived freedom to leave if she wishes. In fact, you might even allow it to be explicit: that you are bringing the family's finances up even though it will give her a fund with which to depart. I'm sure some will flame me for this, but you might even set aside a family savings account denominated "W's Mad Money", meaning that it's a nest egg specifically intended to allow her to depart (though you make it clear that you don't want that result). I think it would go a long way toward allaying her feelings of being trapped, and toward recasting in her mind your love for her--as an absolute love, rather than a clinging and cringing attachment. If you do it, make sure that she has control over it, and that you can't touch it. It will be emotionally tough on you. But keep in mind that she will do it secretly anyway, if she really intends to leave (I'm assuming she does), and that she will *blame* you for her guilt at having to do such a thing (logic being in short supply when a spouse falls out of love [or into love, for that matter]).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: dcope/impulsive,I'm sure some will flame me for this, but you might even set aside a family savings account denominated "W's Mad Money", meaning that it's a nest egg specifically intended to allow her to depart (though you make it clear that you don't want that result). I think it would go a long way toward allaying her feelings of being trapped, and toward recasting in her mind your love for her--as an absolute love, rather than a clinging and cringing attachment. If you do it, make sure that she has control over it, and that you can't touch it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree 100% percent with this - just I had suggested earlier - she needs to know that you really do love and not just love her as long as she stays in the marriage. Giving her control over her own money like this will make her feel more in control. Adn that is important if she is feeling trapped.

The farther away I allow myself to be the better we seem to get along. Is it normal that I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with distance between us? I'm forcing myself to not even think of her as my wife. I have to think about her as a friend. As a wife I attach a expectation. Considering the circumstances my expectations won't be met so there is a immediate feeling of frustration connected to the unmet expectations. As a friend I don't have any of those expectations thus no frustration. The problem with this is that I'm getting more and more comfortable with thinking about her as just a friend. It's starting to scare me because the thoughts of her being a wife to me seems more and more remote.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: The farther away I allow myself to be the better we seem to get along. Is it normal that I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with distance between us?Yeah, it's called going into withdrawal. Withdrawal isn't a painful place, it is sort of safe and warm, no one else to mess up your game. It is coming out that hurts.Impy, you ignored my post awhile back about FS. Did you W's recent ice age start when the car problem surfaced? Could it be that the car issue set her back in terms of progress on the FS EN?I think that is where you need to focus. When we were struggling financially some years back, man, my W couldn't spend a second of thought or emotion on anything else.....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: The farther away I allow myself to be the better we seem to get along. Is it normal that I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with distance between us? I'm forcing myself to not even think of her as my wife. I have to think about her as a friend. As a wife I attach a expectation. Considering the circumstances my expectations won't be met so there is a immediate feeling of frustration connected to the unmet expectations. As a friend I don't have any of those expectations thus no frustration. The problem with this is that I'm getting more and more comfortable with thinking about her as just a friend. It's starting to scare me because the thoughts of her being a wife to me seems more and more remote. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, impulsive, the feelings are normal. For years, I couldn't figure out whether I was a husband pretending to be a roommate or a roommate pretending to be a husband. I wouldn't worry too much about the feelings, as long as your attitudes and behaviors are what you want them to be.

Mike, I do think that FS is huge for her now. I'm working as hard as I can. We are getting closer but it's still a slow road. So I'm slipping into withdrawal?

dcope/impulsive,Just some thoughts. I think you may be forgetting that your wife is in withdrawal, will NOT deposit any love units in your bank, and will do a LOT of lovebusting as she comes out of withdrawal into conflict. If she sees your reaction to her withdrawal or her conflict sending you into depression again (which seems to be the cause of the rift between you), she will withdraw again and again. Not sure you have many chances of this cycle happening again before she totally gives up and moves out.Seriously, are you on any anti-depressants? Dr. Harley recommends them almost universally for those following Plan A. And from your history, it sounds like you need something all the time. I know if I were withdrawn from a spouse who suffered depression and he had not sought medical treatment yet, I'd be pretty convinced he was going to slip down that slope again. If you are on treatment do you feel it's effective? Dr's have to adjust those meds all the time when it's not working.You seem pretty upset that she is not meeting your needs (sf, affection, admiration). She really won't for quite a while. Keep in mind that you did not meet her needs for a certain number of months (not sure how long) and she still hasn't left you. I sense from your attitude that you think she is not meeting your needs just to be cruel to you. But she is withdrawn, and focusing on her own needs and how to meet them by herself. May be a long while before she comes out of withdrawal, and even allows you to meet more of her needs, then she may start meeting yours.Instead of thinking of her as not your wife, think of her as your wife that *you* have helped damage, and remember you are trying to better yourself, and not depend upon your wife to meet all your needs (meet them yourself and find emotional support too). You may not feel strong enough to do all that, which is why you need to find some support. The appearance of that strength will really impress your wife. You shouldn't appear to desparately need her while she is withdrawn - remember how you appeared to her while you were courting her.I've enjoyed following your thread - I really think you have a good chance if you can stay the course. You've only been plan A'ing for a little bit (I think Harley says 6 months is a good try, and your wife's only been withdrawn for around 2?)

Originally posted by impulsive: Mike, I do think that FS is huge for her now. I'm working as hard as I can. We are getting closer but it's still a slow road.Are you working as SMART as you can? Try to have a communications campaign on FS with your W...one positive message per day about finances. Restructure your debt -- rates are lower. Cut YOUR household expenses where you can, and make sure she knows. Get bids on car insurance, household insurance, etc. Put a plan together to build savings. Have a planning consultant come in -- they're free. Look for a higher paying job -- she'll note the search. Show effort and concern.So I'm slipping into withdrawal?[/QUOTE]I'm not sure you really are, since you are still making efforts on her needs. I forget the exact definition. You need help from your W to turn it around, and I think that FS progress is the key. Don't obsess on your state...you are "MB enlightened" and can hopefully turn it around when your W wakes up. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited April 27, 2001).]

I have really been in a worry free, stressless, joy filled zone lately. The wife and I have been getting along excellently. No SF, but wasn't expecting any either. Anyway, yesterday she said the darnest things to me. She said "you know you are such a angel now." "Compared to what you used to be you are the perfect husband and father now". She also said that she has come to realize that the problem with our marriage is not me, but it's her. It's her inability to let go of the past. She does not know how to go forward. She said she recognizes that I have made some unbelievable changes!, but that she does not know how to forget about the past and go forward. She said you know I know you don't want to hear this but Who ever you date or marry after us, is going to be so damn lucky it makes her sick because NOW I'm the perfect husband. She says that she is at a place where she sees it but does not know how to act on it. I resisted the urge to push or try to get her to see my perspective so I just hugged her and said you will be fine. She has intitiated several hugs lately. Just saying nice things from time to time. My mother has been in town for the last 4 days so my wife and I has been sharing the same bed and she has been cuddling pretty regularly but again I surpressed my urge to act impulsively. She said the othe night is it ok if I cuddle with you because your body is so warm? I said of course you can and in the future you never need permission to cuddle. So things seem kind of surreal. I'm enjoying a sense of peace and calm through the storm that I never experienced before in my life. Plan A went from the most hellism experience of my life to actual enjoyment ALMOST!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I have really been in a worry free, stressless, joy filled zone lately. The wife and I have been getting along excellently. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dr. Jekyl, good to see you again [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As I said to you a few weeks ago, quoting Steve Harley to me, you have her confused, and that is good. At some point she will decide that the future is better with you than without you, and then her actions and feelings will follow.But keep Mr. Hyde in the basement [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Mike

I LOVE IT!Does your wife share your spiritual faith? Does she consider herself a Jew, Christian or Moslem of any stripe?Does she understand repentance, forgiveness, grace etc? Does she believe God will forgive you? Or forgive HER? A loving conversation on a higher level may open another little door.

Thank God for the SF Fairy!!! After a three and a half week famine. SHAZAM!! HOOWAAA!! While in the same bed for the last night seeing my mother left early this morning, my wife made a mistake, she accidentally scooted her backside into my stiffy and it proved to be more then she could bear. Above average SF, and no negative ramifications afterwards. The wife is not as spiritual as I am. She believes in God but does not have a close relationship with him. She was baptised Catholic, but was helped raised by very devout Jehovah's Witness grandparents. She seems to have issues with forgiveness. I think some of it goes back to her childhood and the sexual abuse that occurred then. She also told me that she feels that I deserve to have someone in my life that will appreciate how wonderful I am now and that she doesn't know if she will ever be able to be the type of person that I deserve. I find this absolutely ironic considering that I was the idiot for as long as I was. I wish I could get her some help but she refuses to talk to anyone. Is there any advice or suggestions for her out there? I really am starting to see the benefits of a successful plan A! (I think)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She also told me that she feels that I deserve to have someone in my life that will appreciate how wonderful I am now and that she doesn't know if she will ever be able to be the type of person that I deserve.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You need to seriously question her about what she thinks she needs to be in order to be with you. Why doesn't she think that just being herself is enough? It's enough for you, isn't it? You're not trying to "get what you deserve", you're trying to hold on to the one you chose, till death do you part. If she somehow feels wrong or unworthy, she should simply continue to do what she feels she must, and you will keep doing what she did all those years: wait. She needs to understand that even large problems, huge problems, can be overcome with love and patience. That marriage is intended to be forever, not just until honeymoon feelings have faded. That you've accepted a lot of hard realities about yourself, and her, and your lives together, and that you're keeping the pressure off, but the rebuilding on. The urge to divorce is like the urge to jump off a boat because it has started pitching violently. You might have a good life preserver, and be able to make land, or find another boat, or get picked up by a helicopter. But if the boat is sound and the bilge pumps aren't falling behind, why not wait it out and see if things aren't a whole lot better when the storm clears? If you do otherwise, there's a good chance of drowning too.People who are able to forgive gain more than the people who are forgiven. It's a hard lesson, it goes against logic. And it's one what I myself have struggled with and continue to struggle with as I get through each day without sending a damning CD-RW to my ex-wife's boss. Soon, I think, I'll be able to send it back to her. So far, I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. I fear she might think it weakness, or a license to take advantage in some final details of the divorce settlement. I've never expicitly told her I had it, but she knows I'm on these boards and she may have lurked. Each time I've been close to returning it, I've perceived a little jab to my dignity (not always actually delivered by her intentionally) that has pushed me back into disgruntlement. But at some point, I'll do the right thing. I know it. Maybe you can get your wife into that mindset ... one of patience with herself and you. For the moment, she needs to understand that while you're not satisfied with the status quo (part of the problem is that you've previously been willing to offer only a crappy status quo--the other day I heard of a company whose philosophy was that status quo is a slow death), you are willing to be patient, ready to avoid pressuring her, and able to keep working on yourself without strokes from her. Time continues to be on your side. Do what you can to keep buying it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: While in the same bed for the last night seeing my mother left early this morning, my wife made a mistake, she accidentally scooted her backside into my stiffy and it proved to be more then she could bear. Above average SF, and no negative ramifications afterwards. The wife is not as spiritual as I am. She believes in God but does not have a close relationship with him.Let's see if we can all agree where an appropriate paragraph break would go in the above [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

You don't need advice, Imp, you are a Plan A vet. Remember to respect her boundaries and not overreact to the SF. She may feel the need to slap you down now out of "guilt" for giving in....don't give her an easy excuse.Mike

Once again, impulsive, the rapidity of positive change in your relationship astounds me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She also said that she has come to realize that the problem with our marriage is not me, but it's her. It's her inability to let go of the past. She does not know how to go forward. She said she recognizes that I have made some unbelievable changes!, but that she does not know how to forget about the past and go forward. She said you know I know you don't want to hear this but Who ever you date or marry after us, is going to be so damn lucky it makes her sick because NOW I'm the perfect husband. She says that she is at a place where she sees it but does not know how to act on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is likely more true than you think. If your wife did not have good parental models, dealing with a functional husband may be disconcerting and frightening for her. Many (most?) people from abusive backgrounds choose partners that they think they can count on to maintain a distance, and that will give them a sense of familiarity. They actually run from healthy relationships because they do not know how to deal with them. They are frightened of the unknown, and moving relationships out of the realm of dysfunction risks highlighting their own internal dysfunctions. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She also told me that she feels that I deserve to have someone in my life that will appreciate how wonderful I am now and that she doesn't know if she will ever be able to be the type of person that I deserve. I find this absolutely ironic considering that I was the idiot for as long as I was. I wish I could get her some help but she refuses to talk to anyone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wonder what people are really trying to say when they talk about what they or their spouses deserve. What people want seldom has anything to do with what they deserve, and let's face it, the world isn't fair. I think it is much more important to talk about needs and wants than about what is deserved.Your wife is going to need help, impulsive. Not just for your marriage, but for herself. If she won't agree to counseling (individual or marital), is she willing to read books?

GDP, she is not a book reader either. I don't know what to do at this point. We are getting along so well I just have to maintain a positive attitude and no pressure. It's funny how SF works. You can go 30 days with none but as soon as you get some you think you need it daily all of a sudden.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: It's funny how SF works. You can go 30 days with none but as soon as you get some you think you need it daily all of a sudden. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I forget where I read this, but somebody said that when the sex is really good, it increases the female's drive and sates the males.Anyway...one thing I've been thinking about, Impy. Many people, particularly men, equate sex with love. So, she has sex with you, it myust be a sign that she loves you. She doesn't have sex, she mustn't love you. When I spoke with Harley on this topic, he cautioned me against this, and said that you have to separate physical need from emotional state sometimes. Maybe your W has a physical need for sex every 2 weeks. The fact that she turns to you is certainly not a negative, but it is not necessarily a harbinger of a sea change in her emotional feelings either. Likewise, the weeks in between w/o sex are not a sign that she hates you, just a sign that her physical need is not present, and she is not yet in a place where she is ready for regular lovemaking.Just a point to ponder that may help take the highs and lows out of your journey.

This thing is getting pretty long! Question. Is it ok for me to put a time limit on my Plan A? I have three months in now, and I was thinking three more and I'm out is that reasonable or am I being impatient?

Only you can set the time for how long you can wait for her. Six months is a reasonable time for a mate to Plan A while the other dithers about cutting off a physical affair. You haven't believed that she is having an affair. When the WS finally ends contact, s/he is still in pain and withdrawal. Look on the infidelity boards to see what a reasonable time for reconnection after the no-contact letter might be. Six months is a little bit impatient in my book, especially since you have taken the blame for so much. But not all that impatient. Why not go ahead on the six month plan, and reevaluate your durability at that time? As long as you feel like you are growing and improving at a good clip don't worry about the future. Let's talk about it again in 12 weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I was thinking three more and I'm out is that reasonable or am I being impatient?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are the words "until I've taken all I can reasonably be expected to take" part of your marriage vows? Love doesn't conquer problems by being reasonable.

In my opinion, the main reason to terminate Plan A is entrenched complacency on the part of the WS. Remember, Plan A is primarily geared toward affair situations, in which the WS is getting ENs met by the OP. Plan A is designed to induce internal conflict in the WS, in the hope that the discrepancy between the WS's experience and the WS's spousal schema will eventually break down the "fog" and impel the WS to make a choice. However, since Plan A involves the BS meeting the WS's ENs in addition to the OP, there is a real risk that the WS will settle in and just enjoy all the love bank deposits. When this happens, it's necessary to go to Plan B to provide a reality check.The secondary reason to go to Plan B is when Plan A becomes too difficult emotionally for the BS to sustain.In your case, impulsive, you are seeing good progress on the part of your wife, and there is apparently no OP involved. As long as you make sure you take care of yourself, you have no reason to abandon Plan A.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I have three months in now, and I was thinking three more and I'm out is that reasonable or am I being impatient?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"out"? Out in what way? Out of Plan A, back to being a selfish d**k? (I was one too, so I can say that) Or out of the marriage, as in telling her you want to separate?My experience with speaking with Harley is, if there is no OP you keep on keeping on, on the supposition that every day is progress. In reality, I think that the Plan Aer and a withdrawn spouse drift apart due to unmet needs, and they both become highly susceptible to outside temptation. So...read your future there.Now, after some period of time, (maybe a year to 18 months) if you feel your love dying, might an ultimatum to her be appropriate? <shrug> Like, 'go to counseling or let's separate?' Or 'start trying to meet each other's needs on a regular basis or let's pack it in'? I don't know. I would talk to Harley before doing that.When I was about three months in, I made a similar suggestion to Harley in counseling, like "maybe I should just say I quit, because she isn't trying" He said "Right now, that is what she expects, and she would just drift along with whatever you want. You have to change her perception, and you are undoing 12 year of neglect. It won't be unwound in 90 days.'

I don't know what's happening to me but my unmet needs are starting to take a toll on me. I feel so empty any lonely I really don't know how much more I can take. I feel myself slipping into a dangerously downward spiral of despair. I know everyone is going to say that I need to get my taker under control, but my taker has been in starvation mode for over 3 months now and I feel trapped. I feel like I can't fill the space with female companionship because I'm still married, and I still respect and honor my vows. Unlike her I still wear my wedding band and consider myself very much married. I can't walk away because I feel like I would be giving up. I grown tremendously but I'm not getting a opportunity to put it to work. She told me today that she's starting to feel my pain, and it botheres her that I'm this wonderful person and that when she was trying I wasn't. I told her I understand how she feels and it frustrates me also. The problem is I think she drifting farther and farther away and there is nothing I can do. All I could tell her is I'm sorry and I keep coming to her and trying to flip the light switch from time to time because I'm hopeing I might get lucky and that light comes on. The only other thing I could tell her is that if the light ever does come back on I will spend my life making sure it never goes back off!!! I had to leave the house today because I'm depressed all of a sudden and I don't know how to rebound this time like other times. I need help getting either back on right path, or maybe it time to go down another path. I'm suffering here big time. Please help people.

Relationship talk #25 Result: Crash And Burn AgainI didn't intiate it but she felt the need to tell me unsolitcited that she as been as honest and truthful as she can be. By that she means that no matter how much I've changed she will never give the marriage another try. I can be the most wonderful husband on the face of the earth but I cried wolf to many times and she can and will never allow herself to go back. She says divorce is inevitable and all we are doing is postponeing it. She also says I should stop spending so much time trying to convince her I'm different. She already knows I'm different but that is not the point. This woman has fortified her position and I'm spitting in the wind. I doubt have the stamina to sustain this level of rejection and pain and lack of intimacy. I need help I feel like I'm wasting my time and this is a impossible and insurmountable challange.

Do I just cut to the chase and move out and get on with the ruins of a life that I have. I never want to give up but i don't see any progress at all. I could move out by the 1st of the month and get on with my life. I'm going to tell her that I will let her go, and I will give up. This seems to be what she wants anyway. I'm the only jerk sitting around praying that this thing can turn around, and she is dead set against letting it turn around NO MATTER WHAT!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: By that she means that no matter how much I've changed she will never give the marriage another try. I can be the most wonderful husband on the face of the earth but I cried wolf to many times and she can and will never allow herself to go back. She says divorce is inevitable and all we are doing is postponeing it. She also says I should stop spending so much time trying to convince her I'm different. She already knows I'm different but that is not the point. This woman has fortified her position and I'm spitting in the wind. I doubt have the stamina to sustain this level of rejection and pain and lack of intimacy. I need help I feel like I'm wasting my time and this is a impossible and insurmountable challange.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><sigh> I'm sorry, Impy. She does seem entrenched right now, but you have to remember that emotions wax and wane and turn on a dime. You have overcome virtually all of the concrete issues in your relationship. The last barrier is her feelings, and she is afraid to let that one down. I think she is making these statements because she perceives pressure, which is also evident in your recent posts. If you can find away to remove that pressure, to make yourself happy with other activities, you will be making great progress. I think your W sees your ravenous Taker at the gate, and thinks that as soon as she lets down her guard, it will be back to the old days of take, take, take. You can continually tell her you've changed and that things will be different, but she can probably sense your pent-up needs, and is afraid to put herself back in the position of having to meet them. I think sometimes guys think "well, I'm not having sex, so she must be noticing that my Taker is under control." But the mopey look, that hangdog expression, the subtle body languiage that a mate can't help but pick up, can be worse than anything else, as it comes tinged with guilt. So, to alleviate her guilt, she feels the need to back you off by reiterating her current mental divorce.I think more marriages at your stage, at my stage, die because of surrender rather than terminal illness.You need to find some other (non-sexual) activities to pour your time into and find some pleasures in. Give her more time for your changes to sink in, and let her feel the freedom of no pressure on your needs. I know you have been doing a great job on that, but it takes a long time. Each slip sets you back, so progress takes time.The hard part is over -- you have retrained yourself to be an expert husband, she has noticed this, and the last barrier is her feelings. Hang in there!Mike

impulsive, please listen to Mike. I really have nothing else to add.

Thanks Mike, I really am trying my hardest to be patient. I'm trying not to apply any pressure. I don't intiate talks or even mention my needs because I'm scared of these setbacks. It's almost like a cruel joke. Every other aspect of my life is really coming together except my marriage. All she can tell me now is how liberated she feels and how proud of me she is. She said she would rather struggle as a single mother then try again with me. That blows me away. She wants to be friends, but friends with boundaries. I respect those boundaries. Surrender is what I'm trying to avoid. It's getting harder and harder to avoid because my taker is in starvation mode. I can sacrifice my taker as long as I see some progress, but she seems to be slipping farther away. That is where the hopelessness comes in.

From one of your very first posts: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Whenever she talks it about the future when we live apart, and how fun we are going to make it for the kids by being such good friends. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is just one idea, there's no knowledge on my part that your wife would process these things in a way that would be helpful. Some wives could be affected by this line of argument, others would be unaffected, or perhaps even negatively affected. Perhaps it's time to start marshalling the mental, financial, and other arguments against divorce -- for the purposes of taking a stand.Tell her there's no pressure, she's not trapped, you can't make this decision for her. But you have decisions of your own that you will make, and they won't be ones that she will like. Nor will she like her new circumstances, once the initial rush of freedom (which is not really freedom, just its degenerate cousin licence) wears off.1. Statistics about what divorce does to children.2. Statistics that show that divorced women see their economic circumstances decline.3. Statistics that show that divorced men suffer illnesses and premature death. 4. Whatever else you can find to throw in the hopper. Your point would be that you won't be good friends after a divorce, because divorce is the one betrayal you will not be able to tolerate. You will oppose her efforts to divorce if she makes such a foolish choice, and you certainly won't initiate any divorce of your own. You will of course provide financially for your progeny, but she can look forward to you giving as little as possible to her. This is not your Taker talking, this is your Giver saying "look what happens if you destroy my hope."She saw nothing wrong with making herself clear and taking a stand, and you made the changes you needed to make, although they were long overdue. If you are respectful about it, I see nothing wrong with you taking a stand and making it clear to her. Obviously, something is keeping her in the house with you. It might be uncertainty, or inertia, or reluctance to hurt you any more, or her need to amass a nest egg in order to leave. You need to enhance that item while reducing the forces that drive her to want to leave. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 14, 2001).]

First off, Listen to Mike. Do not quit!! DO NOT SURRENDER! Yuo have come a long way and you have a long way to go, but you can do it and you must stick with it in order to be true to yourself and know that you did not give up just because things got rough.Second, you asked if six months was enough to Plan A then 'out'. I remember posting a letter to you from Harley to a guy who was in a very similiar situation to you. He had neglected and mistreated his wife for many years and was now trying while she was set on moving on. Harley told him to Plan A for 2 years up to the divorce, then continue Plan Aing for another 2 years. So there is your answer. And the truth is that your wife tried with you for alot longer than 6 months before giving up - I don't remember how long you have been married but I know it is several years. As has been said many times before, you can't undo the damage of years in months. Stick with it. [QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I can be the most wonderful husband on the face of the earth but I cried wolf to many times and she can and will never allow herself to go back. You know, I may be way off base here, but I think you are getting to her. The very fact that she feels the need to state this means that the new you is affecting her positiviely. And she feels the need to continue to try to deny that. She says divorce is inevitable and all we are doing is postponeing it. Blah, blah, blah. Sorry, but this is more to convince herself than you. If she were so sure believe me she would have left already, financial problems or no! Her own convictions are waning and she is trying to strengthen her resolve. Tell me, why is she postponig the divorce? We know why you are - but her? And don't belive that finances are wholly responsible. No, she is postpoining too because she thinks there is a chance in the back of her mind. And all the good things you are doing is making that thought come to the forefront more and more often.She also says I should stop spending so much time trying to convince her I'm different. She already knows I'm different but that is not the point. yup, yup - stop trying to convince her and make it easy for her to walk away without trying. You see, imps, she knows in the back of her mind that this marriage and you deserve another chance, if only for the sake of the kids, but she made up her mind and is reluctant to go back on that and place herself in the danger of being hurt again - that is all. Everything you do to show her what a good husband you are now and could (maybe) continue to be, forces her to reconsider and that is painful and risky and difficult for her. So she is trying everythign she can to make you stop making her reconsider. But do not give in - it is easier for her to walk away than to try, and it is easier for you to walk away than to try, but do not take the easy road and do not let her take the easy road either. Keep going as you have been. Renew your resolve to stay committed to loving her. Don't flake after 3 months man, that is what she is expecting. She is testing you now, whether she knows it or not. She is testing to see if you are crying wolf again or if this is the real deal. If you break and run then she is justified in thinking that it could not last. But if you are firm in your commitmment to love her and your family then let her know that you love her still and will continue to do so. You are sorry if this causes her distress, but you are not going to revert to the old imps. This woman has fortified her position and I'm spitting in the wind. Ah, but you might be wrong about this. It might be that this little 'outburst' is a sign of how close she is to losing that position that she has been clinging to. Remember the person who quietly shakes their head is much more sure of their position than the person who yells NO!. What I am trying to say is that the very fact that she felt the need to tell you all this might mean that she has definitely been thinking about reconciliation and is shocked that she is.I doubt have the stamina to sustain this level of rejection and pain and lack of intimacy. I need help I feel like I'm wasting my time and this is a impossible and insurmountable challange.Do you still pray imps? Do you still go to church? An insurmountable challenge? Crossing the red sea perhaps [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But God was there and he is here now for you imps. Turn to him, rely on your faith for strength. That is what he is there for. You can face anythign with him by your side. Just pray whenever it seems unbearable. 'God help me' is all it takes. And rest assured that he is there with you. Please stick with it. You've come to far to give up now. Keep posting. Start a new thread if you like. But keep Plan Aing and have faith. Post and let us know how you are.Leanna

impulsive, you shouldn't be starving your taker. Sure, your taker can't have what it wants most, but so what? Find ways to keep your taker distracted and occupied.I agree with Leanna that your wife is really trying to convince herself of what she is saying, and that she is testing you. She is caught between what she fears and what she wants (that would be you, impulsive), and the stress is getting to her. If she can get you to leave, then it takes all the pressure off her. She will be able to persuade herself that her fears were all justified, and she will then probably go on to spend the rest of her life entrenched in her fear of being hurt again.Is that what you want for her, impulsive?I think Sisyphus may be right that it would be wise for you to make preparations for taking a stand against divorce. However, I would not advise taking your argument to your wife unless she actually makes a move in that direction.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: All she can tell me now is how liberated she feels and how proud of me she is. She said she would rather struggle as a single mother then try again with me. That blows me away. She wants to be friends, but friends with boundaries.I know this analogy works more often with someone in an affair, but in this situation I think it helps to look upon your mate as temporarily insane.She is emotionally conflicted now to such a degree that the symptoms are the same. She has a long history of love and intimacy with you, and a family to think about. She sees your changes, and acknowledges that you are now a wonderful father and husband. She occasionally breaks down and makes love with you. But her heart wants to see more evidence. You can't unwind ten years of being a jerk in 3 months....ask the man that knows [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

She isn't leaving, she is still there to Plan A on, so that is the Plan. You need to find an outlet for your energy. If I were you I would focus on your financials, because I suspect that while you see progress she still feels the wolf is at the door. People have widely disparate views of financial security. My wife would be clipping coupons and fretting about the thermostat if she was married to Bill Gates. ewwww....now I have to get that picture out of my head.Anyway, find your small pleasures where you can, and keep on track. If it helps you focus, pick a date in the future....8, 9 months out, and say to yourself that you will shock her with an ultimatum on that date. You can reassess by then, but it may help you hang on, the mental picture of turning the tables on her.....making her face the fact that she may actually lose this suddenly excellent mate, and make her realize that for all her talk, that is not what she wants.After about 9 months, I did something along those lines, and it was very gratifying to hear my W suddenly be the one arguing to stay together.(Caution: don't try this at home)So if it helps you hang on, there is a packaged fantasy for yours. Think of your own fantasies to stave off other needs [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But you have a long way to go before considering anything like that ultimatum. You are still digging yourself out of that decade of neglect.

I don't know what to call this progress or what but we ended up in another relationship talk intiated by her? She seemed different somehow. She didn't sound as absolutely sure about her feelings and intentions. I said to her that you know the entire time we were married she was right there trying to make it work i was on a different planet. But now i'm ready and willing. She said she's still in pain from the past. Make a long story short she ended up saying she will consider giving the marriage one more chance. I asked her later if she really meant it or was she just saying that to shut me up? She said that she doesn't know what to do she's confused. I'm confused. She seems to be loosening up a little do I keep pressing while she seems to be budging a little or do I back all the way off? As long as I'm laid back and plan A'ing she is nonpressured and the status quo. Today after she said she would think about it she allowed me to massage her and she invited me to watch t.v. with her later tonight. By the time i got back from evening church service she was ready for bed soi just kissed her goodnight and let her sleep in peace. Honestly, I abandoned plan A today and swung for the fence. She didn't say yes but she seems to be budging. I don't know what to do from here. Do I try to keep inertia moving or do I let her be and back to plan A? She talked about if she tried again it would be for me not for her. I said that is because everything she is baseing her decision on is my negative past. Anyway she seems to be thinking about reengaging, or trying to reengage. I 'm not sure what to do tommorrow morning, full court press or back off? Sorry for the sports analogies ladies.

help

When you got married, you were supposed to live for your union, not yourselves. It has taken a long time for you to find tha truth, and she's scared of returning to that truth. I would just tell her that when you were faced with the possibility of losing her you realized at last that you were supposed to live for the both of you and not just you. The new deal (which is really what the old deal should have been) is that you both will do that. If she returns to the marriage just for you, there is no balance, and she won't be able to keep it up. Just as your living just for her wouldn't cut it in the long term--both would lead to meltdown. And either or both of you living just for yourselves ... will have you wandering away from each other. The way it's gotta work is that you each live for the union. If she's willing to go for that, she's willing to stay with you. Now might be a good moment for a romantic gesture or four.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Make a long story short she ended up saying she will consider giving the marriage one more chance. I asked her later if she really meant it or was she just saying that to shut me up?Impy, that is great! As we said before, you have her confused,....and that is progress from where she was.Don't press for some sort of verbal commitment from her...she isn't ready. In her mind, your improved behavior is linked to her expressions of surrender on the marriage. You have to keep re-establishing the track record of your new behavior.Remember we have talked a few times about continuing to respect her boudaries when she peeks out and says something positive. Be careful. As to all this "should I Plan A or full court press", I'm surprised at the question. Your far enough along to know what works and what doesn't. Your behavior changes have been noted by her and her mind is slowly changing. A "full court press" is not in the playbook....her emotional evolution is a slow process, you can't rush it. Don't try any fancy footwork...keep meeting all the needs she lets you (especially financial support), avoid LBs, exert NO sexual pressure or affection pressure, and initiate NO relationship talks. If she initiates a relationship talk, try to do more listening than talking, avoid trying to pin her down on her feelings, because they are in flux and changing moment to moment. Listen and be supportive. The ball is in her court, stick to your game plan BECAUSE IT IS WORKING. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It seems kinda wierd but it seems as though we are going in circles. Lots of foot massaging and back rubbing with no relationship talks tonight. Could it be she is testing to see if I make the same mistakes I made at the intial stages of plan A? We got along very well today. Tommorrow is her birthday. Stuck on a gift I usally buy her Victoria's Secret Bra and Panties but I 'm thinking maybe something diffrent. I bought her a Coach purse on Mother's Day she really likes Coach hand bags. Any suggestions? I am maintaing a vigilant plan A right now! I think we are making progess. I hope it is authentic. I don't want to make the same mistakes as before.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I bought her a Coach purse on Mother's Day she really likes Coach hand bags. Any suggestions? I am maintaing a vigilant plan A right now! I think we are making progess. I hope it is authentic. I don't want to make the same mistakes as before. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Impulsive/dcope,I've been following your story. I only discovered MB a little over a month ago but I've all 26 pages. I admire your patience and tenacity. I have a feeling that your wife will come around. So hang in there!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Looks like you have good taste seeing that you got her a Coach bag for Mother's Day! As for suggestions for her b-day, why don't you get her a gift certificate to a day spa? She can stay there the whole day and they'll pamper her with a facial, a massage, a manicure, and a pedicure. As a mother myself, I would LOVE it. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Woodstock [This message has been edited by woodstock (edited May 17, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: It seems kinda wierd but it seems as though we are going in circles. Lots of foot massaging and back rubbing with no relationship talks tonight. Could it be she is testing to see if I make the same mistakes I made at the intial stages of plan A?I wouldn't ascribe evil intentions to it. But I would certainly guess she is watching you closely.Tommorrow is her birthday. Stuck on a gift I usally buy her Victoria's Secret Bra and Panties but I 'm thinking maybe something diffrent.Good thinking. Like the backrubs, those are more gifts for you, I think.I bought her a Coach purse on Mother's Day she really likes Coach hand bags. Any suggestions?Well...be careful. If you are extravagant it might be an anti-financial support lovebuster.Think of what makes her happy...music? Books? She may get more out of a thoughtful gift than an expensive one.How did you work out the car issue, by the way?Mike

I blew a head gasket in that car, so it's major engine work. I ended taking over the payments on a brand new pickup truck my buddy had. They say God looks out for Babies and Fools, and I haven't seen a baby all day! I paid for here to get a manicure since she mentioned a few days ago she needed one. I might have stepped out of bounds today, but I thought I was being cute, and witty. I passed her a note that said: I know you might not want intercourse but I would love to go down on you. No sex, No strings attached, and no pressure. circle oneyes maybe no Well she circled maybe and gave it back to me. Then I dropped her off at work. She smiled when she read it, and I told her I haven't passed a note like that since 7th grade, asking someone to go steady. I probaly should not have but I'm going to be out of town with the boys this weekend and it's been almost 3 weeks without sex and I'm getting antsy. Usually around the 3 week to 4 week range she lightens up and let's me wet my whistle.(Pun Intented) I 've come to understand that there is a part of me that doesn't want her to become financially independent, because that means I become expendable. She is applying for a job tommorrow that she may very well get. It's at a upscale fine dining rest. There is two parts that bother me. 1.She will not need me anymore financially. 2. She will be exposed to very wealthy men that will try to hit on her and I'm honestly jealous. The fact that financial support is one of the issues I'm struggling with right now,makes her vulnerable to influence from wealthy, new men without the trunk load of baggage I have. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't give this a second thought but under the current circumstances I feel very out of control.

An opportunity to show maturity, self-control, self-assurance, absence of jealousy, and your ability to plan.As long as you are measuring up to everything you should be doing at home, the rich guys will hold no fascination for her. So don't let them dominate your thoughts. But you need to approach the financial aspect ... of course very carefully. If she goes to work outside the home, that income should not be "mad money" that either enhances her lifestyle at your expense, or that she socks away in order to leave. Some of it needs to go into the household kitty. Getting clear on $$$ before she goes and interviews for the job would be a good idea. It might also cause her to cool her passion for working outside the home. This is a job for the Policy of Joint agreement. She shouldn't go do this without your total agreement and support ... and that means some compromises in your favor. If not ... well, you express your disappointment, continue to Plan A, and let her conscience go to work on her. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 17, 2001).]

That's one of the things that concerns me. I'm doing a pretty good job meeting financial obligations right now. She seems appreciative that I'm there meeting those obligations, however she keeps mentioning how uncomfortable she feels depending on me. She wants to be independent, which I guess is positive but I do get the feeling that if she had the money to be gone, she might be.

I don't know when my wife became a sadist, but I know for a fact I am not a masochist. I called the wife at work and said I will put the kids to sleep early, I will clean the house, and hope that when you get home we can open a bottle of wine and spend some time together. She said she was having a birthday drink with some friends and then she would come home so we could spend some time together. Once she got home it was obvious she had a few drinks with friends already. She said before you say anything I want to talk to you. I listened. She said some of the most hurtful, negative things I have ever herard her say since this ordeal began. She insists on beating me over the head with my past, and trying to extinguish my hope with her tounge. I don't know what else to do. I leaving with the boys this weekend, and to be honest I need a break. I need to decide if this course of action if worth it. The more committed I become to save my marriage, and the stronger I get to endure the time and the lack of intimacy it's like she senses it and just applies more pressure to get me to quit. All I wanted to do was share a bottle of wine and have pleasant conversation, she saw it as a opportunity to bash me and it hurts. I can't do one thing about the past. I can't change one thing about the past, but i can live for today and tommorrow. She said that I just don't get it. I fuucckked her over, and scarred her emotionally, and mentally for life. She said i won't givve up on the marriage because i'm selfish and always have to have my way. She said so many hurtful things my stomach is hurting this morning. I don't know how much more I can endure. Plan A while you have a withdrawn spouse is one thing but plan A while you endure insults and verbal daggers is alot more difficult.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She said she was having a birthday drink with some friends and then she would come home so we could spend some time together. Once she got home it was obvious she had a few drinks with friends already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Still think there's no one poisoning her mind? OK, so that person (or persons) exists. It gives meaning to the beatings you're taking. They're not coming only from her, and they're not happening for no reason. They are a sign of her being in conflict. They are battles, not mere punishment. They are opportunities for you to fight for your marriage -- to fight against what she's hearing from the other(s) (or, even worse, feeling for the other[s]). Recognize, though, that if you continue to Plan A against something that remains hidden, you are fighting a losing battle. It might be time to pick up Surviving An Affair. Look at this one too: <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963230972/ref=sim_books/103-0917189-2739804" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963230972/ref=sim_books/103-0917189-2739804</A> [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 18, 2001).]

This is getting weirder by the minute. First she let's me sleep in the bed then this morning she says let's masturbate together. This sex thing is getting real weird. She says that she has no sexual drive, but once she get's aroused it's unleashed. She said she doesn't know why she is forcing her self to block me out. She says she has to force herself not to want me. She's doing a good job at it. She is going through so much inner turmoil, it's killing me because she won't let me in. She says I'm expecting another chance when I was given four chances, and I have'nt had to forgive her for even one betrayal of trust. I'm conflicted right now. I'm going to Toronto for the weekend with the boys and find myself. Dig in guys and help me put what is happening in perspective. Are we making progress? Still? I can't tell anymore.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: This is getting weirder by the minute.Not wierder imps, better. These are good things that are happening. She says that she has no sexual drive, but once she get's aroused it's unleashed. Guess what? A woman with no sexual drive does not suggest masturbating together! Sexual activity is the last thing on such a woman's mind. She does have a sexual drive and a healthy one at that, but she is denying it because of the situation and the conflicts in herself. This is normal and natural.She said she doesn't know why she is forcing her self to block me out. This one I think I can clarify for her. She is forcing herself ot block you out because of the past. It is no conincidence that what you did in the past is such a strong factor in her denying you now. You hurt her many times over, and she gave you many chances to reform, and with each cahnce you hurt her some more. She is afraid that letting you in again will only lead to more hurt. This is a self protection measure and one that is important to her and every human being. If someone hits you then says he is sorry and you give him another chance and he hits you again, and apologizes again and asks for another chance again, your instinct will say no out of healthy need to protect yourself. It isa correct and appropriate defense mechanism that humans use to protect themselves and stay away from people and situation that they have learned will cause them pain. Also, her sense of justice and fairness has been offended - she has tried so hard in the past and gotten no where from you, why should she now give you the opportunity to get the same solution that she had tried so hard to get from you and did not. Of course she is in conflict. Ultimately she wants to be happy an lead a contented comfortable life with a man who loves her and will cherish and protect her. But history has shown that you are not that man. You have shown by your past actions that you are a danger to her. So while she wants to give you another chance, wants to believe that your changes are permanent and the two of you can work it out and have a great marriage and a great life together, all her memories of the way thigns have been for so long keeps coming back to tell her that that will not happen, and that you will betray her and hurt her again. And her friends no doubt are telling her the same thing. "You're a fool for thinking of giving him another chance after all he has done to you." "A leopard does not change its spots so easily. He is just trying a ploy to get you bcak and then he will go back to his old ways and then where will you be?". You can of course blame her friends for this, but the truth is that you have done this yourself. Your past, your repeated actions of hurting her has given them (and her)the feeling that you are only going to hurt her again as you track indicates. Her friends are trying to protect her. Her Taker is trying is to protect her. This is her Protective Self stepping up to the bat and saying no, do not believe him. But she also senses that people can change permanently and maybe you have and she will be giving up a really good chance to get the life she has always wanted. So, yes she is conflicted and this is good and healthy. Do you realise that she has gone from a state of withdrawal to a state of conflict and it has been aresult of the changes in you and your loving her the way you have. I'm conflicted right now. I am sorry, impy, but you are not allowed to be conflicted. These are good signs your wife is showing you. She is being honest with you and actually discussing the situation. You say that she is not letting you in, but she is, by sharing all this stuff with you. You are not allowed to go into conflict. Remember how much you love her - reinforce your commitment to her and your marriage. It is not easy but you must stick with it. You must continue to Plan A, continue to love her. She needs it now more than you think - she has outside forces telling her to give up on you, she must see you as strong and loving, and this is your chance to show her that your love is the real deal. It is going to survive this and you are going to keep on loving her, keep on being consistent. You are not going to break and run because things are getting tough. You are here and you love her. As to whether you are making progress? Well, sheesh, I'd like to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 to make you see just how much progress you are making. Let me itemise it for you: 1. She is no longer talking only of divorce 2. She is confused about whether to stay or go, where before she was convinced she wanted to go 3. She is opening up to you, actually sharing her conflict with you, telling you how she is hurting 4. She is being honest with you about how much you hurt her in the past. A person in withdrawal does not bother with this. These are fighting words and that means that there is something worth fighting for. 5. She is making suggestions as to ways you two can share experiences, massages, TV, sexual activites, cuddlingAdn many more, that I probably cannot state properly. Look, what you need to do now, is be firm in your resolve to stick with this. That is what she needs from you. You cannot bail under any circumstances. You need to keep Plan A. You need to accept when she tells you teh negative thigns about your behaviour in the past. That hurt is your punishment for how you behaved. Her sense of justice needs to tell you these things and not let you feel like you are gonna succeed without some punishment for what you have done to her. Have you read the four rules of marriage - care, protection, honesty and time. I would suggest that you reinforce you commitment to her with a letter - nothing long or effusive. But state those four promises for her. Something along the lines of :I love you. I am sorry I hurt you in the past. I know my behaviour was unforgivable and I will never stop regretting that I was so blind and selfish for so long. I have changed and I want to spend the rest of my life making up to you for the thigns I did. I want to give you the life and the love that you deserve. I want to spend the rest of my life loving you, cherishing you, protecting you, supporting you, being honest with you and trying to be the type of husband you deserved all along.Do not say anything about 'if you will give me another chance'. You are stating only your regret about teh past, and how you want to love her. This is a no pressure letter, and 'if you will give me another chance' puts pressure on her and sends the ball in her court. You just want to let her know that your intentions are good adn you recognize admit and are sorry for your previous failings. Keep Plan Aing and keep praying. I think this is a good idea, but heed the advice of the others here, and your own instincts. Do not pressure but do not give up. Let her know that your love is constant and you are in this for the long haul. And take heart - things are going great and you are making excellent progress. Enjoy your trip with your boys, bu tmake sure to keep in touch with the w by phone everyday in a loving supportive manner - no pressure.All the best Leanna

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She says I'm expecting another chance when I was given four chances, and I have'nt had to forgive her for even one betrayal of trust.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>One of the first things John Gottman tells women is to lower their expectations. Many women expect the fairy tale, not a real husband with real faults. Sooner or later, that makes them susceptible to affairs.Although it's well established that you have done some bad things in the past, right now this "four chances" talk is hogwash. She is constructing a rationalization because she believes there is something better in her life. You have the circumstantial proof of this all around you -- there is at the very least an emotional attachment to someone else!. If that were not the case, you would be making a lot more rapid headway. You lack a smoking gun ... only because you either refuse to see it, or fear to look for it. So the bottom line is that there is a betrayal of trust she needs forgiveness for ... after she admits it. Even assuming I'm wrong and there is no EA or PA, she is seeking psychological comfort from someone other than a trained therapist or family member. For that matter, so are you ... the difference here is that our postings are out in the open, and we're all trying to save your marriage, not trying to convince you of reasons to pull it apart.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: All I wanted to do was share a bottle of wine and have pleasant conversation, she saw it as a opportunity to bash me and it hurts.Well....I didn't read it that way, I read it as you wanted to get laid, and I'm sure she did, especially after your note the night before.Impy, you have to remove the sexual pressure, it is the one clear trigger that makes her reactive negatively, and that is a setback for both of you. You crossed the boundary again and she got drunk and snarled at you. You can't proposition her. You have to let her come to you on sex. This issue is like a bear trap in the middle of the room, and every few weeks you feel compelled to go stomp your foot on it. Learn from your mistakes!She is coming around but she is fighting giving up her old negative feelings. You have to understand that. As far as the nasty remarks...well, sometimes whe people are hurtbysomeone they have to lash back before they feel the score is even and the relationship can move on. I think that mywife really unburdening on me helped us out, even though it hurt to hear it. Try to think of some of the nastiness as a sign that you are getting to the real issues, and she is being honest with you.Another thought: do you think your W respects you? I wondered that about my W, and tried to work on it by working on the atttributes that I know she does respect in people, and trying tobe stronger and less needy in some ways. Just a thought.Mike

Well I managed to do a little love busting while in Toronto this weekend. I called the house at 7:00 am Sat after my son's game and no answer. So I called a couple more times. Finally I left a message like " I don't know where you are, or who your with but I was just calling to inform you about your son's game. When I finally talked to her she said that the message was rude and uncalled for. That she was out jogging or something. Anyway, whe n I talked to her again she made it a point to say tell the boys I miss them. Of course I fell right in the trap. Why don't you ever say you miss me??? She said I knew you were going to say that. I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. I'm getting frustrated because my expectations are getting higher for some reason, and I getting even more frustrated about our sex situation, but I keep forgetting that I shouldn't have any expectations in that department. I just want to focus on our finances right now. I don't even want to think about our marriage right now. I'm feeling pretty pessimistic right now and I don't see progress, so I'm getting discouraged. Maybe this discouragement is good if it lowers my expectations right?

OK here are my priorities. God, Kids, Business. I'm at a point where I really don't want to focus on the marriage at all. I don't want to be accomodating, I don't want to bend over backwards being mice, because the nicer I am the ruder she becomes. The nicer I am the more she feels compelled to push me away. I'm not going to love bust but I'm not going to focus on the marriage anymore at all. I hope it does not fall apart even the more but I really don't have any other alternatives. I'm going to become very selfism After my business I will focus on me. The guilt of the position I put my marriage in makes me forake my feelings, but I can't continue on the pat I'm on. My wife goes out of her way to act as though she is not married. I go out of my way to act as though I am married. The pain is tremendous. Please people help me with ways to maintain focus on my priorties and relinguish the focus I've placed on my marriage.

Detect the affair. Or determine conclusively that none exists. Don't keep denying the possibility in the face of blatant signs.You may fear that if you find an affair, the marriage will be over. Well, doesn't that seem to be in the cards anyway? But if you find it, you may be able to stop it--and save your marriage.You may fear that you won't be able to control yourself if you find out about an affair. Such thoughts are also red herrings. You have had a long time to think about this ... you're not going to fly off the handle and pull an O.J.. You may fear that the affair will turn out to be lesbian. It does happen to men, and they do get over it. From one point of view, if you held her interest all these years despite a lurking same-sex attraction, you have nothing to be ashamed of. And if she's changed her orientation, then clearly she's simply unable to come to terms with the traits that make men men (although you might have been a bit over the top on some of them). You may fear her reaction to getting caught. Well, if she's cheating on you, she is the wrong person for you to have any sympathy for in that department. Get thee to Jake Gittes![This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 21, 2001).]

Sis, I don't think he is having a affair. Being totally honest with you I don't care if she is having a affair right now. I'm going forward with my relationship with my God, and my children. She could very well be involved in a affair. What can I do about it. Unless I want to spend time obssessing and investigating which I have no desire to do an affair is out of my control. The bottom line is she does not want to be married right now. No matter how much I changed, no matter how much I want to be happily married to this woman there is nothing I can do about it at this time. What this time and situation has taught me is how to nuture and value a relationship. I never knew there was a such thing as marital skills. I made a ton of mistakes. I also learned a ton and have grown a ton. I fmy wife does not have the ability to accept my love, and embark on a journey through the future with me, all I can do is keep being a great father, and person and sooner or later I will have a opportunity to be extremely happy with someone. Do I want that person to be my wife? ABSOLUTELY. Is this a easy thing to say or even think about? Hell no. However i see myself in a position where I can't keep beating my head up against the wall. I have to accept my situation. I put myself here. So if it's easier for you to concentrate on her having a affair, fine you think about it where I'm at right now I can't afford the luxury of focusing on something I can't prove or change.

Well she wanted to talk tonight to tell me that she wants to move out.

Is it normal to be somewhat numb at this point? There is really nothing I can do to keep her from leaving. She says that she is looking for work so she does not have to depend on me for support. I'm trying the best I can to just be strong and not breakdown at this point. I told her that I didn't want her to leave and I didn't want to give up on my family, but she says she just is not happy living together under the current circumstances. Well considering the fact that I have'nt had the most tame taker in the world I can't say I blame her. She says she doesn't want to try anymore. She has made up her mind and will not turn back. She said that for the last 3 months I have not listened to her or tried to understand her feelings. I said I listened and understood perfectly. I may not want to accept it but I certainly understood. I feel like I put forth a great, galliant effort but the odds were insurmountable. I did my best. I'm a better person, with a relationship closer to God then I've ever been in my entire life. So in the grand scheme of things I'm better off then I was when this saga first began. I refuse to feel sorry for myself or allow myself to become depressed because I've grown to understand that's counterproductive. I have had a difficult time controlling my emotions over the last few months, but I refuse to breakdown. Where do I go from here? I'm not a quitter. I can't force her to love or trust me but I can continue to pray that God softens her heart, and saves my marriage because I've grasped the reality that it's beyond my control.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I can't afford the luxury of focusing on something I can't prove or change.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Harley says an affair must be outed. Until then, Plan A does not have good traction. One of the major problems is that you will appear weak, self-deluding or stupid if you let an affair go undetected. In their heart of hearts, someone who will cheat on you wants you to know they're doing it (whether boastfully or guiltily). And once you do, you're in a better position to fight the influence of the OP. If she wants to move out, look into that controlled separation book. And don't make it easy on her. Your kids don't deserve what she's doing. Nor do you.

I don't have any reason to believe there is a affair. I've done all I can do! This is going to absolutely destroy my boys. I can't believe she won't try one last time. I hear stories of people overcoming alot more challenging situations then this and keeping there marriages together. When I read posts about men that are ignoring there wives needs i just want to slap the guy. I can't imagine having a person that looks forward to my affection. I'm dying a slow painful death but I guess I did it to myself. I would do anything to save my marriage. Life is short. I can recover from this somehow. I don't know how but I will survive.

Imp, I told you a month ago that your W was going to leave, so hopefully you did what I suggested and built up a good track record of the "new impulsive" [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

.Now, the day she leaves, you hand her your Plan B letter. Maybe leave out references to an affair, as you haven't been able to confirm one (although I think there IS one). But otherwise, tell her you love her, acknowledge your contributions to the state of the marriage, state your dreams for a new and better marriage, and indicate that you want no contact with her until she is ready to start taking steps in that direction.Give her two-three months of a flawless Plan B, and two things will happen: 1. She'll come to realize and admit how good a guy you really are, and will start wondering if perhaps she made a mistake in leaving; 2. You'll come to realize how full of problems she is, and will start wondering if perhaps you made a mistake in wanting to keep her...AGG

It takes a lot to kill the love of and INFJ female. And I do mean a lot. Even when the love is gone and INFJ will still care – but there will be no getting through the armour. At some point an INFJ unplugs from a relationship when the pain of that relationship has been too great – and at that point there will be little to nothing that you can do if the trust has been broken too many times. INFJ’s want to forgive – and eventually do forgive –but the forgiveness in case like this means she will care about you and want to see you happy in your own life – but she will most likely not let you back into hers. She will most likely be far too fearful of the past to let you back in.As an ESTP, this will be hard for you to accept because for you the past is the past. It is over – and you most likely will not want to think about tomorrow much. For you there is only today, and today you want her back and you want to make everything all right – right now.But for her – if she is an INFJ – The past will equal the future to her. And she will especially feel this way if she has had to live with too much pain, neglect, abuse, or infidelity. So for an INFJ, when they finally say it is over – it usually is over. At that point they have usually gone emotionally to the point of no return. This is often difficult for other types to understand because most other types start to back out of a difficult relationship sooner than an INFJ – but an INFJ will hold faith that things can work out until they finally reach the breaking point and just can’t take it anymore.Most likely she is not having an affair. She may just be trying to let you know that she is serious about moving on.If you love her, the best thing to do may just be to resolve yourself to the way things look likely to turn out. As my mom always said “You’ve made your bed.”

Impy, I'm traveling, so I'm just checking in for a moment.I'm sorry your W is taking this route. You are right in noting that your taker has been rearing his head lately. Stop that immediately.Even if she does temporarily move out, if you handle this right, you could turn it all around. She probably feels trapped....so lt her out and let her make a free will decision. I think you can tell that she is going through some rethinking about your rellationship...noticing your changes, trying to decide where she wants to be. Maybe this is a necessary step in btreaking her wall down.I wouldn't encourage or stop her from moving out, but I would not let her put things on a "decision' basis....try to keep it on a "process" basis. Like "if you want to move out to clear your head, I won't stop you."And, really, Imp, you have to murder your taker right now, and stop with the constant guilt shots, like the phone message and subsequent call. You are triggering her fight/flight reaction.I've been pretty quiet on this front, but for your own sanity it might be good to know what you are facing vis-a-vis an affair. Cell phone records and emails are good places to start.Clinging so tight right now and laying the guilt on is going to feed her flight reaction. You need to be strong.Mike

Louise I find it extremely interesting that you have come into this thread and on your very first post and hit the nail right on the head. You described exactly where my wife is right now. I'm not very optimistic about the probability of a immaculate reconcilliation however, I'm not ready to quit. She made a very interesting statement. She said we can't live like this forever. She then asked me what were my intentions. I told her that I had not told her but my plan was to give this process until Sept. 1st. She wanted to know why Sept.1st. I told her that was 6 months. I told her that after that point if she still didn't want to give the marriage a try I would leave voluntarily and get on with my life. She made a statement to the arbitrary nature of the Sept. date and then she seemed to settle in. I don't think she is leaving immediately. She is still mentioning bills that I/we need to pay. The place she says she is considering moving to is a cottage about 40 miles south of where we live now. She said that she doesn't have a job, or transportation yet. So the move is not immediate. I think the moving out talk was a clear indication of her state of mind, but not of her immediate plans. The talk was precipitated by a guilt flair up by me also, so she is very frustrated. It shocked me because up until this point she was adament about not moving again. I find it interesting that she would consider moving so far away. I think my taker has been slapping her with guilt, and making ugly faces at her and it overshadowing the positive changes I've made. She is saying that yeah you have made positive changes but "to little to late". What are my chances of perfecting a taker free plan A as long as we have to still live together? I think by placing a time frame promise to move on has put me into a corner. Well the appetite is gone again and I feel like I did during the first week in Feb. The sum total of my optimism lays in the fact that she still talks alot about how she feels. All of her decisions are based on emotion. You people may not believe it but God can turn this impossible looking situation around. I will just take one day at a time. I'm starting to see deeper and deeper into how my taker is impacting her. AGG, SIS I don't know how to respond to you guys belief that there is a affair lurking here. I don't think so. She has a female friend that she has been spending alot of time with. She is single and a partier. She also has some serious anxiety, and childhood abuse issues. I think that the fact that they have those abuse issues in common brings them together. I think my wife admires her freedom and carefree lifestyle. I think my wife has reached a saturation point of pain in her mind and can't consider going backwards as she says. I think the fact that she doesn't have any neutral parties that she respects or trust telling her that marriage is important give it another try works against me. She says that she gave it the last try I'm asking for a year ago. I remember the fourth of July weekend last year. For what ever reason I didn't respond then. I did make a pretty ugly bed for myself. If she stays am I spitting in the wind to still try plan A? I get the suspicion that she is jockeying to get into the finacial position to be independent and confident her her abilities support herself. Sh eis a independent survivior, evidenced by her sticking by me all the time I was stupid. What do I do now???????????

Do I stand and fight or ????

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She has a female friend that she has been spending a lot of time with. She is single and a partier. She also has some serious anxiety, and childhood abuse issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You have said this before. Perhaps not so clearly. But shame on all of us for not seeing it for what it is, and telling you what you've gotta do about it!OK, let's say you just put your finger on it. Assuming it's not an affair, it's just this friend's influence ... well, you should still demand that W stop seeing her and stop communicating with her! You have yet to put your foot down and make that demand. You need to catalogue the friend's bad influence ... not just things that are bad in and of themselves, but things that take away from the family, like the loss of her presence and her time. Things that would be a problem if, say, she were too committed to "Meals On Wheels". If you feel like telling the truth, you can tell her that she has been allowing her friend to destroy the second most important thing in her life: her marriage; and by extension she will destroy the most important thing in her life: her children. If you want, you can tell her that until she moves out, you will continue with your changes, and you will give her space--and time to make the decision to dump the friend (although you make it clear that you want that ASAP). Plan B is not yet timely ... you haven't demanded a disconnection from the friend. And she hasn't been put to that choice: you or her. If you do put her to that choice, in the best case you immediately win. In the worst case, she walks, and never even develops an awareness that her friend really did destroy your marriage. But you will have that awareness, because it will be obvious to you that she will not choose someone she vowed "till death do us part" over a screwed-up friend. Regardless of her "feelings", she has children and a loving husband (who, regardless of his past, stands ready now to come closer than most to living up to his vows). In the most likely middle case, you get some more time to Plan A. And it either works, or there is a move-out and a shift to Plan B. Which either works, or ...The example you present to your children is now very important. If you tolerate her ongoing behavior, that is not helpful to the kids. The old ways weren't a good example either, but it looks like you're the one who woke up first. You can take pride in that. Because she should have done a better job of influencing you and setting an example.I'm not saying that you should cast aside all the guilt you feel over this situation ... there is a lot of it that can be laid at your feet. But in order to do what you've gotta do, you need to clearly recognize her part in this. Once you do, then you can be an effective advocate for your marriage and for your kids and for yourself. And she will be isolated into her selfish little corner. If she wants to remain there, you will be the one to decide whether the door remains open for her to return. But you will have taken a final stand for your marriage. And stick to it, regardless of forces that will push you to do otherwise. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 22, 2001).][This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 22, 2001).]

Aahh Sis, I'm not exactly in the position to pass out ultimatums. I would love to tell her not to deal with this friend but she has made it clear she doesn't consider herself married so I really don't have in control or serious input into her life or associations. I can't really say that this friend destroyed my marriage, I betrayed the trust and I neglected her needs while we were struggling finacially. The friend at this point is just there. She is there because she is just as screwed up but looks like she is in a better position because she unconnected. I can't blame the friend. Today she seems very nice like nothing happened so I guess it's just a flawless Plan A with no love busting. One of the major love buster in our marriage was that she never had friends. This was her choice because she was so plugged into our marriage she didn't feel it was necassary to have friends. Once I went into depression and failed to provide companionship and conversation she always complained about no friends. So this friend is important to her at this point because she represents the friend she wanted all throught the marriage. She knows I don't approve of the friend but she relishes the fact that I don't have the control to say Stay away from her.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Louise_INFJ: It takes a lot to kill the love of and INFJ female. And I do mean a lot. Even when the love is gone and INFJ will still care – but there will be no getting through the armour. At some point an INFJ unplugs from a relationship when the pain of that relationship has been too great – and at that point there will be little to nothing that you can do if the trust has been broken too many times. INFJ’s want to forgive – and eventually do forgive –but the forgiveness in case like this means she will care about you and want to see you happy in your own life – but she will most likely not let you back into hers. She will most likely be far too fearful of the past to let you back in.<sigh> Your message made me sad, and in many ways summed up my INFJ W. She refers to her block as a "waist-high stone wall". She is very caring, attentive, dutiful...but there is a line there that I can't seem to punch through.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Aahh Sis, I'm not exactly in the position to pass out ultimatums. ... She knows I don't approve of the friend but she relishes the fact that I don't have the control to say Stay away from her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, you're not in the position to pass out ultimatums. But you are in a position to carefully explain what divorce will do to your children. And you are in a position to explain that you believe her friend is destroying her marriage. And you are in a position to make it known in no uncertain terms that it must stop. In Plan A, the Betrayed Spouse does not make an ultimatum of the desire that the OP be unceremoniously excised from the Wayward Spouse's life. If Wayward Spouse says no, Plan A continues regardless. Until Plan A can no longer be followed. The goal is not to coerce immediate agreement and cooperation by virtue of an ultimatum. The goal is to firmly stake out the untenability of inhabiting two divergent lives. The WS must then work out on their own which way to move initially, or whether to try to straddle in the face of certain knowledge that the time for straddling is limited (and knowing that at some point, the ultimate choice may be removed from their hands).It's not that she can't have friends. She just shouldn't have this friend, or friends of the same kind. There are people around who would be upstanding friends who wouldn't contribute to your marital misery. No, don't attempt to command her to stay away. Just plant the seed that her relationship with this woman is a large part of why your marriage is crumbling. She will see everything the woman says or does in a subtly different light. And in time, you stand a good chance of winning.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 22, 2001).]

I am an INFJ as well. What Louise said is VERY true of INFJ's. It does take a lot to kill our love and it is a strength that we have. It is not impossible to get through the walls that arise after years of neglect and abuse but it will take a long time and it will be over the seasons of time that the relationship will grow and be restored as well as achieve greater intimacy. Meeting the INFJ's needs (just like meeting anyone's needs) are the best approach but again as has been said in this thread it needs to be done in such a way that it can be maintained. IMP has grown a lot and she will wish growth for him and happiness. He can commit to the relationship and outside of an affair I would guess she will stay in the marriage unless IMP regresses or she feels forced into something. Unless his wife feels very pressured she'll be very happy for his happiness (growth) but will not be able to encourage him with committment on her end. Such has been the story and it has not suprised me. She will be pleasant and caring many times, but whenever he is looking for emotional support or security in the relationship, well she'll feel she cannot promise this or encourage it. One thing I believe works in IMP's best interest is their history together. She will be hard to let go of that and in a way feel comfortable with it even if she would never admit it to him.Time is the best restorer of a relationship like this.Holding the current position acquiring time will work toward restoration of the future. Restoration is a process. IMP, I was glad to see that you realized trying to control the situation by going in with an iron fist wasn't going to work.Find the measure that you can maintain and be at peace with yourself. Over time you'll both be building and it'll restore a level of comfort that will grow into intimacy. May be a long haul though.Hang tight.HM [

Hmm. Lot going on here. You know, impulsive, you may have taken some of the pressure off your wife by telling her about your September 1 "deadline". Of course, come September, you may need to explain that this was merely your plan, and plans can change...impulsive, your wife's ideas regarding her prospective move are quite interesting. You zeroed in on how far away she was talking about moving, but frankly, the whole thing sounds like a pipedream. If your wife was really planning a move, I wonder whether she would be looking at things more realistically. First, find a way to make an independent living, then find a place to live within commuting distance to her workplace, etc. Instead, it appears that she is fantasizing.At this point, I think your wife is still just airing her feelings. I wouldn't view this as a setback, and I think your approach needs to be the same as it has been. You need to find a way to sustain yourself, by taking care of your own needs (or as many as you can) and looking for opportunities to meet your wife's needs. Get used to the idea that your wife is going to do what she is going to do, and learn to find strength in the knowledge that your wife's feelings and actions do not threaten your own self, however much hurt you experience.I don't see anything wrong with reiterating your concern about the negative influence your wife's friend is having on her, but I really doubt that this relationship should be viewed as having the same type of dynamics as an affair, and treating it as such is not likely to be helpful, in my opinion.

The last couple days have been very pleasant around here. I'm working hard to meet financial obligations, and we are getting along very well. I don't have any expectations as far as her meeting any needs I have, and I just meet the needs she allow me to. I really appreciate everyone that took the time to respond to this thread. I am abundantly optimistic right now because feel a certain measure of peace and calm right now. She is only working 1 day per week and I am responsible for meeting the bills. She feels uncomfortable with this and is working feverishly to become independant. I growing to understand that plan A can be successful if I don't allow myself to be hypersensitive to her response and don't allow myself to be percevied as needy and moopy. I think that my demeanor was draining her because she felt guilt for not being able to meet my needs. I was pushing subtly for SF and she felt pressure. When I didn't get the responses I wanted I acted frustrated which frustrated her and caused her fight/flight response. So how I keep getting lulled into a sense of OK let me check her temperature and see if she will meet my needs now. Everytime i do that I get a resounding negative response that sets me back mentally and emotionally.

Pleasant = Withdrawal. Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! You need to keep her in conflict ... she's withdrawn again. That doesn't mean you let your Taker out. But if she's not struggling against you, she's not struggling with herself. You needn't ask for verbal recommitment to the marriage, or anything else "over the top", but look for tangible signs of same that are missing or weak, etc. Talk with her about them. If there is a similarly-aged couple at church, try to arrange that the four of you go out together. Maybe it's time to take an inventory of where your Plan A might be falling short. If she has complained about having no friends, and consequently has begun to associate with a bad friend, you need to look at your failure to provide alternatives. Has your Plan A included providing opportunities for friendship? How can you ask her to drop Ms. Bad Influence if there won't be anyone else around? If she rejects the opportunity to meet new friends, you will have her in conflict on that issue ... and engaged. Remember, Plan A is about being what you should be, not about being servile or a yes man. If being what you should be is blocked by her obsolete mental image of you, then it is your responsibility to remold that image. You shouldn't expect that the remolding will occur without angst on both sides.What else are you missing? You need to realize that your marriage needs to go back through the badlands in order to get to where it needs to be. It won't survive by just rocking along pleasantly. That rocking would be a gentle wind-down from her perspective (meanwhile, you'll be as agonized as ever, if not more so). There has been a lot said about relationship pressure, your need for SF, etc. That's not what I'm talking about here. I think you've been in the penalty box long enough to show your wife you're serious. Maybe not long enough to satisfy her that she should recommit. But you need to start asking for the things that are needed in order to make the marriage workable in the long-term--so that nothing is in the way of recommitment. Not things that are for you, but things that are for the marriage. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 23, 2001).]

To “put your foot down and make that demand,” would be a huge and terrible mistake. That will only push her away. The friend is giving her emotional support that she has good reason to feel she cannot find with you. And you will score “major points” by owning up to this. You have to take full responsibility for any pain YOU have caused her. And although you do not need to take responsibility for her current feeling or her actions, you do need to acknowledge that you have not been there for her in the past and that you have, and are still, causing her a great deal of pain. The friend is not causing the problem – she is a result of the problem – which – said kindly – was your behavior which is old new to you – but she will be holing that past pain close to her heart to protect her from any future pain.If you wish to win her heart again, you will need to be prepared for a long haul – far longer than you may be prepare to invest in this. It will take more than a few months of “change” to permit her to breath easy around you again for starters. Two things I would recommend to help you in your own goals for relating better to your wife and finding some peace in your current situation. Do what you wish with the information. I am recommending two completely different routes, and both will give good results.One can be found at <A HREF="http://www.holographic.org/." TARGET=_blank>http://www.holographic.org/.</A> It will look like insane mumbo jumbo at first, but give it a serious look. I know a great many people who have used this method to help them understand and remove the source of certain impulses, for example your depression, or your repeat infidelity. Consider giving one session at this a go before you write it off completely.The other is a book found at <A HREF="http://www.watchtower.org/publications/publications_available.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.watchtower.org/publications/publications_available.htm</A> called “The Secret of Family Happiness”. A friend gave me this book once and it did help. Whatever your thoughts on the group that wrote this book, the good and practical suggestions there do work and have helped mend many a marriage.If you keep your wife in conflict, as someone with the same nature, I can assure you that you will at this point push her further away, possibly for good. Remember that this situation was created out of conflict. What she will want, what she craves is some security, some peace in her life, something good that she can count on. She will need a peace that she most likely has not felt for a long time, if ever. For an INFJ conflict slowly kills them. Chances are that what she is doing, she will be doing on some level to save her life in her own mind.This relationship with her party friend will fizzle out in it’s own time. Your wife’s friend will move on – or eventually hurt your wife and your wife will pull back. Remember that what your wife wants is peace in her heart. She wants to feel safe. She will be spending this time with her friend as a way to momentarily forget. I suppose that the best thing I can tell you about an INFJ female is that they are very loyal, almost to a fault, and that if you are able to find a way (considering your own nature) to provide her with a safe, secure, and peaceful environment, she may come around. But this will take time . . . possibly more than a year or two. But when the floodgates do open again – you could very well drown in the affection she will show you for your wait.Another book you might consider to help you through this time is Emotional Intelligence. <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553375067/o/qid=990661153/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7518235-9792757" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553375067/o/qid=990661153/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7518235-9792757</A> I hope this helps. From someone who has been through hell and back. She won’t want to give up. But at this point she will feel that she has no other choice. Keep working on yourself and you have a chance that she may come around. And if she doesn’t what do you gain? You’ll be a better father, a better friend, and you’ll have something on which to build a better future.I know all of this talk sounds like fluff to an ESTP. But trust me. Relax. If you just relax and focus on something else like your children, or your work, or your own “growth” you will be surprised at how things may improve.

Wow Louise. You seem to have her down to a tee. I don't think conflict is good right now. Conflict drives my wife away. Conflict and frustrations drains her battery so fast it's scary. She has always felt like she could not say what she really wanted to say because she was scared of my reaction. She always felt like it was easier to go along with me even if she didn't want to because the reprecussions were worse then the negative feeling she would have in her stomach for not following her heart or mind. Everything I say and do is under a microscope right now. If she says something that I don't agree with I have to be careful of my response because she would always say that if she don't agree with me I act different. Tonight she said to me that "OOH just so you know what's going on Ms. Bad Influence will be spending the night one day next week because I have to get up early and take her to the airport". "if I don't let her spend the night she will miss her flight". I didn't say anything for a while. I then said Only one night right? She said you have a problem with this don't you? I said I would have rather you asked me was I ok with it before you told her it was OK, and now your just filling me in on the details of your unilateral decision. The other thing I don't like about it is that our situation is tenious enough. Do we really need outsiders staying with us under these circumstances. I'm am going to feel like a jerk. My wife is in my bed sleeping with her friend while I'm out on the couch. Just doesn't look or sound right let alone feel right. I said but I don't want to fight about it I just want get along. SO i left with the boys and went to a arcade. I invited her earlier and of course she said no thank you but that's fine. I understand that if I was there for her like I should have been she would not be attached to this friend. I accept full responsibility for the pain and damage I've caused. I'm not in any rush to throw in the towel. As long as ther is no conflict and we get along like today. Pleasant conversation and no pressure. I can deal with this. The hard part comes when I try to let my taker out and I get slapped with rejection. I can wait it out as long as i don't expect anything. Once I let my taker out I don't have a chance because then I put her under a microscope and she hates it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louise_INFJ: To “put your foot down and make that demand,” would be a huge and terrible mistake. That will only push her away. The friend is giving her emotional support that she has good reason to feel she cannot find with you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Louise, your stuff is great. There's a lot to agree with there. dcope/impulsive has redeemed himself to "decent human being" status in his wife's eyes already. She now thinks she's just not in love with him, and she wants to move on. She needs to be wooed all over again. Stolid perfection ... makes him just a stolidly pefect guy she doesn't want. Wanting to get into her pants while she is in an unwooed state ... makes him just another guy who wants to get into her pants ... and takes him back out of the good guy category.A guy who hasn't crossed the woo gap doesn't have the right to tell her who she should and shouldn't associate with.But what about him simply airing the nature and extent of his objections to her? Hell, Ms. Bad Influence is starting to invade his home! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you wish to win her heart again, you will need to be prepared for a long haul – far longer than you may be prepare to invest in this. It will take more than a few months of “change” to permit her to breath easy around you again for starters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I would agree ... except she's not giving him a long haul. He has a ticking clock he's running against, so he doesn't have time to make his changes and wait for her paradigms to shift. He needs to not only make the changes, but undertake the risky and painful process of cajoling the paradigm shifts. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you keep your wife in conflict, as someone with the same nature, I can assure you that you will at this point push her further away, possibly for good. For an INFJ conflict slowly kills them. Chances are that what she is doing, she will be doing on some level to save her life in her own mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not saying there should be a constant simmering feud. That would be drawing her into conflict and leaving her there. That's enough to wear out anyone. I mean just presenting regular challenges to her ways of thinking about dcope/impulsive ... challenges beyond the evidence before her own eyes. If she likes to be safe and secure, she also needs to hear about how she is being made safe and secure--regularly and repeatedly. Evidence in court ... just sits there, meaningless to the jury ... unless and until an attorney uses the testimony of witnesses to weave it into a believable story. Dry pages, and things on the table with labels and tags ... in and of themselves do little. The jury starts out presuming the defendant is innocent. Then they are brought into the conflicted state of "maybe he did it" ... finally, they are convinced one way or the other by one of the two attorneys. Hung juries are not happy juries ... and certainly can't be left that way indefinitely. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I suppose that the best thing I can tell you about an INFJ female is that they are very loyal, almost to a fault, and that if you are able to find a way (considering your own nature) to provide her with a safe, secure, and peaceful environment, she may come around.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah! A possible source of psychological leverage. Play the loyalty card. And what if she says "Where has your loyalty been?" ... well "Two wrongs don't make a right" and "We're not talking about my imperfections, we're talking about you violating a fundamental principle in your own nature that you will not be able to forgive yourself for in the future."Clearly these are all tactics and gambits. Some may be transparent, but effective anyway. If dcope/impulsive were an insincere cad, to use them would be evil. But he's fighting for his marriage. When and if he uses these tactics, he's not just manipulating; he is himself making implicit promises. I believe he intends to keep those promises. That, and only that, gives him the moral authority to pull out all the stops to keep his wife.

OK here is the deal. The wife got a phone call today from the job she was hoping for. It sounded real positive so most likely she will get the job tommorrow on the interview. She asked me to loan her the last $80.00 she need to buy the car she has been putting money towards for the last 2 weeks. I felt uncomfortable with her asking me to loan it because that is her way of saying this is mine, this is about me, and you can help me if you like but it's not ours it's mine. I'm feel very ambivalent about both the car and job. On one hand I'm happy for her because it's like she is making positive progress. She feels better about herself and her future. The other side of the coin is that she is doing it without me. She feels totally emancipated and draws the correlation between this good feeling and not being in the marriage. I'm sure she feels she would never had been able to buy a car, or get a job if she was still in the marriage with me. I do feel somewhat impotent because it seems as though she is moving forward without me. I love her greatly so I only want to see her happy. I'm maintaining a positive outlook because negativity is counter productive. I wish we could have made this progress together then she coud associate our marriage with progress. Well other then feeling powerless I guess everything is going fine. She doesn't see the fact that I'm working hard, and meeting our obligations while she was saving for this car. It feels like now all the pieces to her independence puzzle is coming together. She has a car. She has a good job, why does she need me? I would love for her to see her progress as a reason to give the marriage a try. Maybe somehow it won't seem so risky to her. She has a way out and doesn't feel trapped. I told her I was proud of her which I really am, but I kept the part about me be insecure to myself.

Is insecure a normal feeling while in Plan A?

My sex drive seems to have went out the window. Have not even had the urge. Am I ok?

Ask your minister if you should loan her the money. If he says no, you have backup.

I've already loaned her the money. i don't have a problem helping her, I mean she is my wife and the mother of my children. She was by my side for years and I took her for granted. Now she is trying to move forward and better herself I want the help her do that. In being truthful i wish we were doing things and moving forward together but there is nothing I can do about that now. She feels a need to do things that make her feel good about herself, and I can understand because for so long she did not feel good about herself or our marriage. I understand where she is coming from. She deserves happiness. I want her to understand that she can be happy in the marriage but she doesn't have faith in that, so what can I do? Wanting someone do do bad because they are not with you is not love. I do love her and with or without me I want her to be happy, and prosperous.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: My sex drive seems to have went out the window. Have not even had the urge. Am I ok? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're fine...sex drive is tied to stress and self esteem and confidence and depression and a lot of things that take a beating during marital problems. I've had a plunge on that front lately myself.On the bright side, the lack of a drive may stop you pressuring your W.Impy, maybe this is a good time for a review. If you look back over the past few months, what was effective and forwarded your Plan A, and what missteps hurt your progress? This is not over by any means, and it is important to review and learn from your experiences.PS: I think it would have been a disaster to not loan her $80.....she would have gotten it somewhere, and she would have resented you forever for trying to keep her in handcuffs without transportation. Somewhere there is a pithy saying about if you love someone let them go, if they return, something, something....you may need to think about that a little. Hang in there. I would like to see a post from you on the things that worked and the things that didn't.

This is my first time writing to any internet discussion group. I am 42, a teacher, 3 kids, married 11 years yesterday. My husband shows me no attention, affection, romance, intimacy. I am going crazy. We have had sex twice in 5 months. I even jumped into the shower with him and all he wanted to do was shampoo his hair and then go clean the pool tile at 9:30 at night. I am starving for his affection and want sex from him. I have no interest in looking elsewhere for it. I planned a surprise night out, and nothing happened, except he held my hand for 5 minutes and gave me a long hug this morning. I have said for a year that we need to "date", spend time alone together, have more sex, etc. He does not do it. I have ruled out another woman. He has always put the kids first and I have told him he is wrong for doing that. Help me, help me, help me. I just want to yell in his face...Hello, I am your wife...bed me! What should I say to him ? Last night the kids were gone and he went right to sleep during Jay Leno. I was awake and ready to go. I have told him I hate the tv. All he wants to do is watch it. Somebody respond to me. I am going crazy about this. Even his brother does not understand this.

It is possible for an INFJ who has been pushed over the edge to try to strain a relationship in order to kill it. That can be a specific goal. Although it would sound to me that since she is not experiencing conflict at the moment she will be less driven to kill it right now so trust me, you are doing the right thing by backing down. Cause her more heartache and you will lose her at this point. So the question for you to ask yourself is, “How determined am I to knuckle down myself and make this work?”To answer these questions TO YOURSELF honestly – you need to be in a place where you are REALLY thinking about the best interests of your wife.What caused the unfaithfulness to begin with and what makes you so sure that you will not fall short again? Your wife is now, from the sound of things near her thirties. If she gives this relationship another chance, how can you be sure you will not fall short again? If you love her you will REALLY think about this one long and hard. You won’t want to see her trying to start again at 40 after you’ve had a few more affairs.Chances are that when you met your wife she was a sweet but slightly determined young thing. You admired her mind – you loved her smile, her laugh, her unusual sense of humour (no?) possibly you were flattered that in her discernment she chose you, out of a fair few others that were keen to spend a bit of time with her. But the fact is – you most likely won her too easy – and then lost interest because you didn’t like it much when she got down to worrying about the realities of everyday life.Just guessing here.And now that you are not feeling certain of her you are remembering all that you enjoyed before. There’s a slim chance that you even find her a little more appealing now simply because of the challenge she presents at the moment.Just make sure it’s not the challenge she presents now – but the fact that you really do love her that is driving you now.Make sure that you tell her that you love her, and that you are sorry for the way things are now often. But what will get her attention the most is you getting on with your life. Again, the book on emotional intelligence is excellent. <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553375067/o/qid=990661153/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7518235-9792757" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553375067/o/qid=990661153 /sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7518235-9792757</A> I would like to know if you do look into this book. Or if you intend to. (As an ESTP you’ll be a little uncomfortable with that question. (no?)Essentially it’s message is about delayed gratification, and how having control over natural emotional impulses (it helps show the reader how to do this) can help a person get where they want to be in life. It will certainly help you through this uncertain time in your life.This is not a win at all costs situation here – this is the life of someone you love and have hurt deeply. Make sure you let her know that you are happy that she found a job. Be honest and tell her it scares you and the reiterate that you want her to be happy so you are trying to just deal with your feelings.One of the things that matters greatly to an INFJ is emotional HONESTY.Back to getting on with your life without her.As an ESTP – Routine is most likely not your strong point. That’s who you are. For your family, you may want to consider something you do routinely, like a family man. You might consider a night when you are responsible for dinner and doing something with your boys – on a weekend night would be best. Don’t expect your wife to be a part of this at first – just try to do something – you and the boys.The best way I can describe the way I look at life – and if your wife is the same way, she may see the same thing – is that life is like a structure, a building. Each day you add another brick, another part of the structure. A building with a goal, a plan, maybe even a blueprint that can be changed a little as you progress. But she’ll want to know where things are going.Four times now she’s tried to build – and four times what she has built has been torn down.It’s time for you to build – and you’ll have to build without her.If you find a way to create a safe home – a family home for her you may have a chance. She still may leave. It may take a great deal of time. But the only chance you have is by working on yourself. You will definitely have to win her again – no doubt about that – and it will not be easy.Take it one day at a time and concentrate on your family (you and the boys).Give the idea of a family night once a week for you and your sons a thought. All the better if you cook that one night a week.[This message has been edited by Louise_INFJ (edited May 27, 2001).]

My imprseesion was that infidelity has been involved here - is that correct?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louise_INFJ: My imprseesion was that infidelity has been involved here - is that correct?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not confirmed or even heavily suspected by Imp, Louise. I like your posts.

I think Louise meant his infidelity. And I think he was just randy behavior without ever crossing the line into infidelity (bachelor party type stuff). I guess some women would see that is infidelity.

Impulsive: the kid card. If she is as loyal as Louise states, how can she do this to her kids? Your posts never mention this (or I have missed it).

As far as infidelity, I did some stupid things that betrayed trust but never a affair physical or emotional. Twice I had internet conversations of a sexual nature that was purely based on boredom and the thrill of anonymity. She took it as though I might as well been physical. My wife is at the point where she just doesn't have the energy to go forward because of my baggage. I could be Prince Charming on a white horse and it just won't matter. However if I were a stranger and not the father of her children and the legal husband on paper I might be looked at as quite the catch. I've noticed that she has become quite cynical, and jaded. She went from teh most trusting person on the planet to not trusting anyone, and that's because I betrayed her trust. The one issue that I can't shake is that while i was in my fog she talked of leaving and I said all the things I'm saying now to get another opportunity. Before I said it but didn't mean it so now she saying you had your last chance and you blew it.

Then I must admit that I'm a little lost. Still, the healthiest thing to do might be to get into a one night a week routine of being with your boys. It could be good for you and it will definitely be good for them. Find a way to keep putting one foot before the other. She’s clearly working through some issues – I doubt that very much that you can say at the moment will help – just continue to tell her you love her and find things that help you continue to put one foot before the other. It is hard to get through a time of uncertainty like this. I don't understand fully why this situation exists - so it is possibly best that I not comment any further until I do.

What do you mean when you say that you betrayed her trust? Was this something in a business sense?

Sorry[This message has been edited by Louise_INFJ (edited May 28, 2001).]

There was a series of incidences that betrayed the trust my wife had in me. The first was about 4 years ago. I had a stag party at our brand new home while she was at work. The boys got restless and strippers did more then strip and my wife came home to find used condoms and such in the garbage. She felt totally betrayed and disrespected and I can't say i blame her. My defense was I didn't have sex with anyone but I didn't have enough respect for my brand new home or my 8 month pregnant wife to not do what I did. We had to move from that house because it was to much for her. Second was a internet relationship I developed with a chick from New Zealand. I sent a email of a sexual nature that my wife intercepted. She was devestated. Then I allowed my grandfather that was suffering from Alzhiermer's to come live with us because he was in a abusive situation. He reguired around the clock care. Since she was a stay at home mom, I kind of leveraged her through guilt to get her to take care of him while he was very abusive to my wife and kids verbally. I minimized it because of his illness she took it very seriously. While this is happening my business was going down hill, I stop meeting her financial security needs and let my physical attractiveness go down the drain. This was around the time where I was forsaking 9 out of her 10 emotional needs. While I was beating her in the head with my taker. I had her convinced that life was so bad beacuse she was not sexual enough. This situation went on for about two to three years. She was miserable. I ws not attentive to the kids like I should have been. I was not supportive to my wife needs I was a terrible husband. Throughout this all she asked to leave three times. I never took her serious. But i said things to convince her that I would change. She trusted me and believed me every time. I never changed. So now when i say I'll change she says I know but I trusted and tried and i can't anymore. She says she just don't have it in her anymore. I'm the boy that cried wolf. All though she believes my changes she still think they may be temporary. There has been a pattern of neglect. She thinks I 'm just the type of person that doesn't learn until it's to late. Now she just wants me to be her friend and raise our kids together and she has no interst in sex or relationship or trying to save out marriage.

Help! I'm growing increasingly impatient. Can it be that no amoount of change on my part will turn my wife around to give me another opportunity? She does not know how to forgive. I can see her conflicted but she does not know how to try again. She won't seek counciling. She won't read any books. All she keeps saying is she is not ready and don't think she will ever be ready. I keep telling her that she will never be ready if all she has to go by is the past. If I back off entirely I would be giving up right? I am focusing alot of time and enrgy in the relationship I have with my kids, but i feel somewhat conflicted with that also. The closer we get, the harder it will be for them to handle a subsequent divorce or official separation. I almost feel like I fattening them up for the slaughter. I can't get her past the negative aspects of our past. So I'm going to spend the next couple of weeks focusing away from her, and our situation. It's difficult because it feels like I'm neglecting the marriage again when i do that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Help! I'm growing increasingly impatient. Can it be that no amoount of change on my part will turn my wife around to give me another opportunity?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's right, impulsive. No amount of change on your part will turn your wife around. She has to turn around herself. The matter is out of your hands.That doesn't mean that your changes are wasted. For one thing, they are a necessary precondition for the restoration of your marriage. For another, being a better person provides its own reward in how you feel about yourself. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She does not know how to forgive. I can see her conflicted but she does not know how to try again. She won't seek counciling. She won't read any books. All she keeps saying is she is not ready and don't think she will ever be ready. I keep telling her that she will never be ready if all she has to go by is the past.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But, impulsive, you are now adding to the "past". You are providing good memories to counterbalance the bad memories. The longer your wife stays conflicted (assuming you stick with the "new" you), the more the weight of the past should come down on the side of staying with the marriage.In the meantime, it really isn't fair for you to expect her to forget the past. Sure, you would both benefit if she could let go of her pain. But it just isn't that easy, and she will need to find her own way. Books and counseling only help when one is ready to change. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If I back off entirely I would be giving up right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What do you mean by backing off? You can back off your expectations without changing your behavior.My wife and I have not spoken in more than ten months. Except for a number of occasions when we have passed in the street, I have only seen her at the courthouse. But I haven't given up. I can do little more than pray, but I haven't given up. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am focusing alot of time and enrgy in the relationship I have with my kids, but i feel somewhat conflicted with that also. The closer we get, the harder it will be for them to handle a subsequent divorce or official separation. I almost feel like I fattening them up for the slaughter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is another indication that you are still assuming responsibility for your wife's choices. Building a good relationship with your kids is not only a good, positive thing; it's also your responsibility as a parent. If your wife acts to hurt them, that is her choice, for which she alone is responsible. For you to evade your responsibility because your wife might do something hurtful makes no sense at all. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I can't get her past the negative aspects of our past. So I'm going to spend the next couple of weeks focusing away from her, and our situation. It's difficult because it feels like I'm neglecting the marriage again when i do that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Right now, it doesn't sound like you have much of a marriage to neglect. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't take the opportunity to meet your wife's needs. But you need to spread your focus. You're already doing that with your kids. That's great of itself, and frankly may contributing to your wife's needs also. Just don't neglect your own needs.Really, it's "just" a matter of balance. A very tricky balance, of course, but I really believe that with an appropriate mindset your situation is quite sustainable.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Help! I'm growing increasingly impatient. Can it be that no amoount of change on my part will turn my wife around to give me another opportunity? She does not know how to forgive. I can see her conflicted but she does not know how to try again. She won't seek counciling. She won't read any books. All she keeps saying is she is not ready and don't think she will ever be ready. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Imp, the last ingredient in your recovery is time, and it can't be rushed. If your impatience doesn't force a decision when she isn't sold yet on the new you, I think you have a good chance. But every time you force a relationship talk, try for SF, act impatient/impulsive, or lay a guilt trip on her, a flash goes off in her face that you haven't changed, that it is all an act, that if she opens up the bad old imp will be back.You need to suck it up, show some discipline, strive for a consistent Plan A. Find a gear you can maintain for the long run...that is what I am focusing on now. Mike

Well today is our 6th Anniversary. I bought a bottle of Kendall-Jackson Zinfandel and a nice card. We slept in the same bed last night. Ms. Bad Influence slept over last night and I took her to the airport this morning. Wifey was cuddling a little and it felt so good, but I maintained my composure and didn'y overreact. Thanks guys I need those words of encouragment. Hopefully we will have many more anniversaries in the future. Tell me if my handwritten message is to heavy.Just as I loved you more last week then I did 6 years ago I love you more today then yesterday. Despite everything else I will love you forever.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Tell me if my handwritten message is to heavy. Just as I loved you more last week then I did 6 years ago I love you more today then yesterday. Despite everything else I will love you forever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmm...sweet and sappy. Well, at least it went with the Zinfandel [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Happy Anniversary, Impy. You don't see it now, but your marriage is in a better place than it was last year or the year before. Last year there was just an unhappy wife and an unenlightened husband. Just like with me. Now at least there is a husband with a clue and a wife that is confused rather than secretly planning a single life. You are building an honest base to go forward from.

Well, I have to have expectations in order to be disappointed right? Well, I'm not disappointed in the fact that she had no idea it was our anniversary. She was honestly surprised to see the gifts, I got her. She felt uncomfortable I could tell. She thanked me several times, she apologized a few times without being specific about what she was sorry about. She hugged me once, and I hugged her back but didn't let on to my alleged disappointment. I guess it was a love bank deposit, so i'm not going to dwell on the reaction because I didn't do it to get a reaction I did it because I love her completely. No expectations is my new goal. Just positive, unsmothering love without pressure. I did buy her the things she loved the most from Victoria's Secret. Satin Waterbra with matching panties. Shew had mentioned before that lingerie would be inappropriate but underwear is a neccessacity so since we have been married I always enjoyed buying her fancy satin and lace panties and bras from Victoria's Secret. She really enjoys them also. She wasted no time wearing them she wore them right away, as she was getting out of the shower as I arrived home so she could go to work. I feel a little moopy, because she felt guilty that she forgot, and didn't have anything for me. It kinda took away from the fun of buying a gift, not because I didn't get anything but because she didn't seem to feel totally comfortable because she honestly forgot. Back to the couch, and hopefully I'll have a better anniversary next year!!!

I read the message about the personality types,went to the page and came back with this: I am a ENFJ and my husband(according to my calculation only!) is an ISTP---someone please comment on this.FYI please see previous entries past 3-4 days or so.Thanks for your help.LKD

lkd - I'm an INFJ female whose first husband was an ISTP. He passed away just over six years ago. I have since been happily married to a lovely ENFJ - drives me crazy in his own little way, but very kind and thoughtful. I'm actually working on a book, a work of fiction based on my real story about the year in my life when my ISTP husband passed away, and coping with that year. I was only 28. You may find the second chapter interesting - very rough - first draft so quite choppy. It is written through the eyes of my sister who is an ESTP – based on actual things that were said and happened at the time. The writing will get better I hope. Right now I’m just working on getting the story down. You can find the first draft of that chapter on <A HREF="http://www.flamingthings.com/B/Chapter002.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.flamingthings.com/B/Chapter002.htm</A> Please post a link to the page you have your own discussion on so that we don’t clutter up Impulsive’s discussion.

Her discomfort is a sign of the cognitive dissonance between the distorted image of you she has required herself to develop in order to build the desire to leave, and the real, changed impy. It's a good thing.In her mind, it's probably time to see if you can be made to prove you're still beset by demons. It's time for a provocation. Be steadfast. Don't be provoked, but don't go overboard on the saintliness ... it probably won't sell, and even if it does sell, it would support her saying she's "undeserving" of the new you. In other words, keep leading, but don't get so far ahead she feels like quitting because she can't catch up.

Maybe I should take it as progress, but i don't want to track progress because then I would have expectations right? It seems that I'm back in the bed. She came home from work and just got into the bed with me and we slept all night. I am working hard not do do anything to push the envelope. For some reason I have been horny as heck but I can't afford to apply any pressure. I don't want to do anything thing that lands me back out on the couch. I think she has developed an aversion to sex. Suddenly she has no sexual desire at all. She says she can live without it and she does not feel sexual at all. I think it may have been from teh pressure I was applying before. Could it be that my taker has murdered her sex drive? Is this microscopic progress that I'm back in the bed or am I reading to far into things again? I think I've been here before and I did something stupid to take steps backwards. Positive reenforcement needed!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Maybe I should take it as progress, but i don't want to track progress because then I would have expectations right? It seems that I'm back in the bed. She came home from work and just got into the bed with me and we slept all night.I thought you were on the couch and she was in the bed?For some reason I have been horny as heck but I can't afford to apply any pressure.Apply pressure with your hand. You can afford it, it's free.Suddenly she has no sexual desire at all. She says she can live without it and she does not feel sexual at all. I think it may have been from teh pressure I was applying before. Could it be that my taker has murdered her sex drive?She just brought this up? Don't be drawn into discussions about sex...that is your need, not hers.Sleeping in the same bed is a positive step. As you say, you've gone off the track here in the past. Exercise some discipline.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Maybe I should take it as progress, but i don't want to track progress because then I would have expectations right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm. Good point, I think. But you do have to track changes, since you will need to adapt to them. And remember that having expectations and having hope are two different things. Keep the hope, but drop the expectations. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think she has developed an aversion to sex. Suddenly she has no sexual desire at all. She says she can live without it and she does not feel sexual at all. I think it may have been from teh pressure I was applying before. Could it be that my taker has murdered her sex drive? Is this microscopic progress that I'm back in the bed or am I reading to far into things again?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's still too soon to tell, impulsive. But remember that what happens with your wife is not all about you. Your wife is generating plenty of internal pressure herself, likely enough to have affected her sex drive. Also, an aversion to intimacy often looks like an aversion to sex.As one who is continually analyzing, I am a poor one to say "don't over-analyze". But if you must analyze, try not to take your speculations too seriously.This is a case where you don't need all your questions answered in order to know what to do.

I was invited to the bed the day before because her friend slept over. Last night she went to work and when she came home I was sleep in her/our bed. She didn't ask me to get up or say she would sleep on the couch like she had in the the past so we slept peacefully. I applied some sexual pressure last week by asking her to be my co-pilot during masturbation. The mistake I've made is when she asks for sex I assume it's ok for me to ask for sex and when she doesn't oblige I get disappointed and she feels guilty then she feels like giving into he sexual feelings were a mistake because it cause pressure down the line. If i was able to control myself and have real no-strings attached sex when she intiated it I would probably be in a better situation with her sexually. I'm not going to bring up sex at all this time. I don't want to masturbate. Masturbation increases my focus on sex. It makes me want to approach her for satisfaction. We have been having very pleasant conversations around the house lately. I want to reenforce the positives and not dwell on the negatives. So sleeping together in the same bed is a positive? Well I guess I'll just count my blessings. I'm avoiding relationship talks. The wife made a comment a couple of days ago that set me back about sex. She said that while we were together we would have sex and I would pummel her for sometimes a hour or more and turn her around in all these positions and she would feel like such a piece of meat. I was taken aback because for years I was conditioned to believe that women wanted long drawn out sex from time to time, but my wife actually disliked the marathon sessions. She also mentions that she felt so much pressure to perform and satisfy that now that she is out of the relationship she feels so relieved. Has anyone else ever had to deal with this?

If a woman is disenchanted but still committed ... sex becomes an unpleasant duty. Which she will feel pressured to fulfill. To the extent she complies, resentment will build up--pressing against the sense of commitment. If the sense of commitment is broken, there is of course a sense of relief. But if a husband is sensitive to things that erode the relationship (both inside and outside the sexual realm), that stage is never reached.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She said that while we were together we would have sex and I would pummel her for sometimes a hour or more and turn her around in all these positions and she would feel like such a piece of meat.Hmmm....well, in order to judge, I'd have to see the video. You have my email, send it on.Has anyone else ever had to deal with this? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nobody in withdrawal likes sex more than the frequency that their body craves it. If your more-in-love partner forces you to have sex more often or longer than you might like, than you will resent it and eventually become sexually averse.My W was on that path, I think. She would have sex pretty much as often as I wanted, and would always have..er..completion, and I figured that was a sign that everything was cool with her.Oddly, now, the tables have turned, and it is me who is more disinterested the last few months, and her that is always initiating or insisting or concerned about my desire. And now I can relate to how she was beginning to feel....sometimes I'd rather sleep than fool around, and the orgasm just doesn't mean that much. It all depends on where your head is at. Impy, Harley told me to be "casual" about sex. That is what you need to do, and in all seriousness, I think at this point your marriage depends on your ability to do so flawlessly from here forward. The next sexual pressure episode might be the last straw for her. Sometimes the mindset becomes that one greta sexual episode is going to solve everything, but I don't think women feel that way...it is more emotional with them. In that situation, you are making far more marital headway by respecting their boundaries than by having them make reluctant love to you. As to the bed thing, I would be concerned about crossing the boundary that she set, since you are back in there without being invited (the night that her friend slept over being an exception). I hope she isn't resenting you being there in bed, because that is not something you can inflict right now.

Well I came home in time for her to go to work and she had her bed piled with junk. Then she said to me don't clean off the bed I'll put that stuff away when I get home. I took that to mean that she didn't want me in the bed tonight when she got home. So I asked her straight up. She says We have already talked about this. hinting at no she doesn't want me in the bed with her. Then she turns right around and says Sleep in the bed, but with a frustrated tone. I'm at the point where I'm at the end of my rope. This is getting worse not better. If she doesn't want this marriage then she can struggle by herself and I'll go on with my life minus her. I'm tired. Two wrongs do not make a right. OK so I was a idiot for a long time and she put up with it! So now what am I to eat crap for the next 6 years before she decides she want to save the marriage. I'm meeting all the needs she want. Financial, domestic support, conversation, and admiration. I'm getting nothing in return. Fine, Life is to short to be miserable. I'll stop meeting her needs and let her see what it's like to be single and struggling. She is so eager to be single, then fine. I've done all I can do to save my marriage. I'm lonely as hell, I'm twice as horny as hell and nothing on the horizon but setback after setback, and at the same time she has the nerve to ask for favor after favor. She didn't even remember our anniversary for Christ's sake! Why am I here trying to make something work? It's totally onesided, and the prognosis is bleek at best. I reached this point in my last marriage and I was hoping things would turn around before I reached it here. I begged and tried, and tried, She said no no no. Then I met my wife now and then my ex came around beging but i was to bitter and tired to turn back. I'm reaching that point fast. I'm feeling resentment build up and I'm starting to feel crapped on. I'm sleeping in my bed, and if she wants to sleep on the couch God bless her. I won't ask her for nothing and she does not have to ask me for anything. If a pretty woman walks past me butt naked on payday, it's a done deal. If I was still a jerk and didn't have feelings i could care less about her constant rejection, and apathy. I'm loving, humble, and respectful and all she cares about is what she wants. She can do it now without me.

Hey, does anyone know how to get hold of impulsive? He needs to know that his Taker got loose...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume: Hey, does anyone know how to get hold of impulsive? He needs to know that his Taker got loose...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah....given the last paragraph of my previous message, I think I'll pack up my instincts and go to Vegas.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Then she turns right around and says Sleep in the bed, but with a frustrated tone.Well, Imp, this was just another episode of the boundary setting, no more, no less. You have to stay back until you are invited. Focus on BECOMING attractive...is being needy attractive? Or is being strong and independent and happy attractive? OK so I was a idiot for a long time and she put up with it! So now what am I to eat crap for the next 6 years before she decides she want to save the marriage.]Well, she put up with it six years...you have only been planning A for about 90 days, and even that has been spotty. As I said before, find a gear you can maintain.[I'm meeting all the needs she want. Financial, domestic support, conversation, and admiration. I'm getting nothing in return.I think you are making lovebank deposits with your efforts. Financial support may still need work....a crisis over borrowing $80 for a car does not spell financial security for most people. But you have definitely made headway there. Financial support is a tricky one, because people have different concepts of security. To some people it is no bill collectors calling...to others it is fully funded retirement and college funds. Most people fall in between, but it is the rare couple that agree precisely.But, as you know, your lovebank deposits are often being counterbalanced by slipups in lovebusters (as defined by your W). That may mean an unwanted sexual pass, or intruding on 'her' bed, or acting suspicious, or laying guilt on her, or unasked for touching or affection. She defines the lovebusters now, there is no appealing them. Until you can heel your Taker and put a hard stop to the lovebusters, your lovebank efforts on her needs are only registering pennies on the dollar. Despiteall that, she has definitely noticed your changes, and that is great! You have to recognize that she is appreciating part of your efforts, but your lovebusting is an anchor on the overall progress.She can do it now without me.Careful you don't get what you ask for, my friend. Better to retreat humbly to the couch. I suspect that it will pay dividends if you do. You always have the nuclear option available. But why do it 90 days into a sputtering Plan A? Perfect your behaviors...if she doesn't respond after 6 months of a PERFECT Plan A, reassess your options.If there were another party involved, I guess at some point here you would be talking Plan B to preserve your love for her, since it is obviously fraying right now. But I don't think you have laid down the track record necessary for that yet. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited May 31, 2001).]

So you think I should go back to the couch?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: So you think I should go back to the couch?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's the safer thing to do. If your communication is going well enough, you might ask again what your wife prefers, since your previous inquiry resulted in a mixed message: words saying one thing and tone saying another - at least so far as you were able to interpret it.It is critical that in your interaction with your wife you respect her boundaries. However, these boundaries are likely to be in flux, and you have no way of knowing what they are unless your wife tells you. To make matters even more confusing, she probably doesn't know what they are herself. Indeed, I'm guessing that her inability to establish boundaries for herself is a significant cause of the current state of your relationship. Like I said before, it's not all about you.

I approached my wife with her weeding ring and asked her ro put it on until our divorce is final. She asked why I said because regardless of teh circumstances we are married. She gave me some BS about her finger is swollen and that it won't fit. THIS IS MY LINE IN THE SAND. I have been wearing my ring and acting married for the last 4 months. Since she refuses to wear her ring and act married, I refuse to wear mine and act married. Enough is Enough. This really is not about my taker. My wife has been walking around for the last 4 months enjoying all the benefits of being married and me changing to become a better person. I have been supportive and patient. When she wants sex she gets it. When she wants me to get out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the store she get's it. I clean. I cook, I do laundry, I provide flawless domestic support. Every bill she asks for money for I pay. Everything she has asked for she has gotten without shouldering one responsibility of marriage. I sat her down and told her that she has been saying for the last 4 months that I have been ignoring her, and not respecting her and trying to get my way. I told her that the only thing I've been trying ot do is get close enough to her for her to see that I love her. I would never hurt her again, and that there was a opportunity for happiness if she gave herself a chance to be happy. Why try for 6 years trying to turn on a lamp while the lamp is not plugged into the outlet. Then I show you the reason the lamp wouldn't come on and then you decide that you don't want the lamp on anymore. But your still standing in the dark. Well I can't force her to turn on the lamp. If she wants to stand in the dark fine. I also told her that for some period of time, I don't know how long she will have a opportunity to save our marriage, and be happy together. I told that I'm not talking about it anymore, and I'm not trying to get her to let me in anymore, this is what she has been asking for... so now she has it. I understand that from my perspective this is very likely the death nail in my marriage's coffin. My marriage was dead 4 months ago when she decided that she was quitting and not looking back. The only thing she has been doing over the last 4 months is enjoying the benefits of having a soft landing, and smooth winddown. It's easy to walk away from a marriage when you have someone catering to your every need and wish. It's a little harder when you have to live the loneliness, and isolation and reality that the person I have been over the last 4 months is better then what she can very likely find out ther anywhere.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'm loving, humble, and respectful and all she cares about is what she wants. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, the problem is that your surface changes are not masking your Taker. If you were really changed, there would be no disparity between the two. If you mask your fear and pain, that beneficially prevents those being misinterpreted as weakness. But your normal drives ... those are your problem. When you're loving, humble and respectful, those things are apparently only skin deep ... you are expecting payback, and sooner rather than later. You can be a fatalist, and say that that's just who you are, and if she can't love you anymore, it's time to move on. Or you can be more than what you have been, and realize that regardless of where she is now in her personal development, you have a duty to yourself, your kids, and her to be more than you have been in the past. If it means that you endure her (hopefully temporary) departure without bitterness and rancor, and that you allow her the "space" she seems to want, well, then it means that. This is not all about you. She may be blaming it all on you, but things are going on inside her, as they go on inside everybody with an I.Q. above that of a rock. Sometimes people you love make mistakes. She may shortly make some big ones. Can you prepare yourself for them so that you can withstand them? Don't abandon your hope, but get a handle on your fear. A woman who walks out isn't necessarily gone for good--unless your reactions become frighteningly pyrotechnic. Take stock and continue to rehabilitate yourself. Others are beyond your control.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I approached my wife with her weeding ring and asked her ro put it on until our divorce is final. She asked why I said because regardless of teh circumstances we are married. She gave me some BS about her finger is swollen and that it won't fit. THIS IS MY LINE IN THE SAND.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wow! You're drawing a line over a piece of jewelry!? Perhaps my soul is insufficiently poetic, but of all things to draw a line over, this one strikes me as pretty silly.Coincidentally, several months before my wife left me, she wasn't wearing her wedding ring. She claimed it was too tight. Guess what? She was right. So we took it to a jeweler and had him stretch it, and she started wearing it again. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I have been wearing my ring and acting married for the last 4 months. Since she refuses to wear her ring and act married, I refuse to wear mine and act married. Enough is Enough. This really is not about my taker.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not about your taker? Then what, pray tell, is it about? Your sense of fair play, perhaps, which has conveniently forgotten all about what your attitudes and behaviors put your wife through over the past several years?Sorry, impulsive, I don't buy it. I think this is all about your taker. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My wife has been walking around for the last 4 months enjoying all the benefits of being married and me changing to become a better person. I have been supportive and patient. When she wants sex she gets it. When she wants me to get out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the store she get's it. I clean. I cook, I do laundry, I provide flawless domestic support. Every bill she asks for money for I pay. Everything she has asked for she has gotten without shouldering one responsibility of marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, you've been keeping score, impulsive? Scorekeeping is very bad for a relationship. Even with the love bank concept, the idea isn't to make sure that the balances in each other's accounts are equal. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I sat her down and told her that she has been saying for the last 4 months that I have been ignoring her, and not respecting her and trying to get my way. I told her that the only thing I've been trying ot do is get close enough to her for her to see that I love her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I guess you've now confirmed your wife's suspicions. All your changes have been artificial, designed to manipulate her to "see" what you want her to see.Becoming a better person is supposed to be it's own reward. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I told that I'm not talking about it anymore, and I'm not trying to get her to let me in anymore, this is what she has been asking for... so now she has it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, I hope that this time you mean it. You realize, don't you, that this doesn't require you to deviate from Plan A? You still should be looking for opportunities to meet your wife's needs. You just need to do it without also looking for opportunities to worm your way in past her boundaries. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It's easy to walk away from a marriage when you have someone catering to your every need and wish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where ever did you get that idea, impulsive? Perhaps it's true if the person who is catering to your every need and wish is not the person you are walking away from, but that's not the case here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I told her that the only thing I've been trying ot do is get close enough to her for her to see that I love her. I would never hurt her again, and that there was a opportunity for happiness if she gave herself a chance to be happy.She knows you love her. Your love for her is not the issue. Her lovebank balance is the issue.You say you would never hurt her and you are offering her an opportunity for happiness. Is what you are doing matching what you are saying? Let me play devil's advocate.She is saying she needs space, that she feels controlled.You are forcing your way into her bed and demanding she wear a ring. She is saying she doesn't want sex right now.You are propositioning her.It's easy to walk away from a marriage when you have someone catering to your every need and wish.NOOOOOOO. That is exactly wrong. That is what Plan A is about! It is HARD to give up a marriage to a perfectly behaved spouse. An expert spouse places doubts in the mind of a withdrawn spouse. Impy, Plan A has probably extended your marriage to this point. But your periodic acts of....impulsion....are setting you back.You are forcing her into a decision, and it is too early in your changed behavior for the decision to go in your favor. Apologize, retreat, and sleep on the couch.Mike

When I came home she wanted to talk immediately. I sat quietly and listened. She said that she feels like she is going to lose me as a friend. That she can't handle me not being her friend. She says that she knows I'm a all or none type person and I'm going to abandon her. She broke down into tears and started talking about how empty her life will be without me and how she can't handle it. She hugged me so tight it took my breath away. I told her that I will always be a father to my kids and I don't wish anything but happiness for her. I told her I understood how she's come to where she is emotionally. I respect it and I won't try to inflict my will on her anymore. Her tone has definetely changed and all of a sudden she seemed very loving. This is not a ploy or a game to me. I'm moving on. I love her but I can't find that gear to sustain myself in this thing anymore. I've tried. I've grown as a person and GDP you are right, that is a reward in it's self. I don't have any bitterness. I still love her. I just can't continue plan A hoping and praying that she comes around. I'm not leaving the house, I'm not going backwards into the old me, I will continue being the best father and person I could possibly be. I've come to understand the one thing plan A and Dr. Harley and all his wisdom can't get past. The fact that my wife will not turn back ever. It's not in her. She has that type of determination. While we were dating I once promised to cut the grass. She didn't have a lawn mower, so I kept procrastinating. When I finally got there I found her in the back yard cutting the grass with a pair of scissors. She is that determined. She would never turn around. I could plan A forever. She would adknowledge my positives but never turn around. So all I'm doing at this point is giving up on the hope of a turnaround. I'm still the new me, just refocused on my life rather then our life together. She doesn't have any idea the tramua our boys are going to endure at the end of this road. I will make sure they understand that we both love them and I will always be in there lives. Now I can stop focusing on her every move and thought and body language. Now I can focus on building my fortune and empire. I'll be ok as long as I keep taking things one day at a time. She didn't get that job she was hoping for so I'll keep up my financial support and my domestic support and believe it or not I'm a happier person so maybe this is what we needed to do a long time ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Now I can stop focusing on her every move and thought and body language. Now I can focus on building my fortune and empire. I'll be ok as long as I keep taking things one day at a time. She didn't get that job she was hoping for so I'll keep up my financial support and my domestic support and believe it or not I'm a happier person so maybe this is what we needed to do a long time ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, impulsive, I don't fault your plan here, but...Here you experience a dramatic breakthrough with your wife (no, not a turnaround, but a breakthrough nonetheless), and you don't even notice because you are so focused on your hopelessness.

Dramatic breakthrough? Over the last 4 months she has never called me from work, but tonight she did to tell me that she is tired and that she is very emotional right now and that she will see me when she get's home. She almost had a seductive tone to her voice. Whatever! I'm staying unfocused on her, and going forward. Why is she trying to be so nice now? I don't get women. When your bending over backwards they act like they can't give you the time of day. As soon as I make up my mind to go forward with my life she wants to be nice and loving. Go figure!

You know, impulsive, you've started to talk an awful lot like the way your wife has talked over the last several months. You made changes and your wife said it was too late. Now she makes changes and you say it's too late.

While I don't agree with the item you chose to draw a line regarding, I do believe that "women" find strength and self-respect attractive in their own right. Much more seductive than a doormat. This is NORMAL on the way to reconciliation. You made a firm stand, she sees you are deadly serious, and very desirable. She comes crying back.Please understand this!

I don't know what to do anymore. The wife came home and took my couch blanket, and put it in the boys room because they had a friend sleep over. Thus, relegating me to sleep in her bed with her. She asked for a bad rub, (she usually doesn't ask I always offer), and then she started being borderline seductive with her body language. I didn't bite because I said I wouldn't pressure for sex and I won't. This morning she asked me to just cuddle. Cuddling turned into me going down, and reluctant SF it was pretty weird. It's almost like she was calling my bluff to see if I could withstand the temptation of sex. To see if I was serious about my line in the sand. Afterwards it's back to the same old thing. I'm terribly confused right now. I'm not sure if she coming around or if she's just scared to be alone. I'm not sure if I should back off or press forward. The more i back off it seems like she pursues, when I press forward she backs off. It starting to seem like a game I have no interest in playing. She cuddled last night and talked very sweet and loving. I'm not that tough. I can't act like I'm not going to melt in her arms. But should I? Even the SF is weird because she wants to do everything but penetration. I don't get it. Can someone help me sort this mess out????? GDP, I'm not even acting like I don't want to be married to this woman. I just don't have anymore energy or patience for rejection and apathy. I'm getting the impression that she is conflicted but can't bring herself to let all the way go, or committ to making it work. So we are in a marital purgatory. How long can this last? I can't sustain the yo-yoing emotional rollercoaster.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'm not sure if I should back off or press forward. The more i back off it seems like she pursues, when I press forward she backs off. It starting to seem like a game I have no interest in playing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't play the game. Don't back off, and don't press forward. It sure looks to me like your wife is coming around, but it's going to take more time.This doesn't have to be as much of a roller-coaster as it is, impulsive. Drop the expectations, keep the hope, and shift into a gear you can maintain.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: The more i back off it seems like she pursues, when I press forward she backs off.Hmmm....sounds like a relationship.Dcope, I've been down this road, although my W is a lot subtler than yours. After Plan Aing for months and hearing a lot of "we aren't meant for each other", I had a meltdown last fall, and suddenly, faced with a separation, she was very interested in meeting my needs and making me happy. It is a result of the theory we hacve all been pounding at you -- being strong and independent is attractive, and being needy and clingy is unattractive. I suppose there could also be a nod to the theory that the withdrawn partner enters intimacy first, but I'm not positive that is actually what is happening here. I think that she was shown the abyss, and, whereas 3-4 months ago she would have said "Fine, leave!", now, the new Dcope has her thinking that maube she needs to keep evaluating. If I were you, I would walk a line of staying somewhat cool, but polite and casual, and try to POJA some finite marital agreements going forward.Mike

This whole idea of needy and clingy vs. strong and independent is interesting. The wife talked to me and said that she felt terrible yesterday. She felt a overwhelming sense of doom. She felt empty, and alone. She also said that she was very hesitant to talk to me about it because she felt needy and clingy. hhhmmmm. She doesn't want to let go and she doesn't want to committ. After sex she said that she feels that I'm sexually needy. She says she can really do without it, but it doesn't seem as though I can go without. I have a very healthy sexual appetite. Sex to her is not a priority. I guess I'm back in the bed. So she sees me as needy sexually and unable to function without it. I don't want to push or force my way into any situation. In fact i'm going to take a few steps back, and focus on the kids and business. The other thing I noticed about th ewife today is seem very bothered with the fact that I was so happy today. She seems to see things along the lines of win/loss on everyday and every issue. It's like a mini power struggle everyday. Is it strange that i felt better detached emotionally yesterday. Even though we had Sf and she came around alittle yesterday it seemed as though she did so reluctantly. Now she seems to be trying to go back to where we were a few days ago. Me a doormat, and begging for our marriage back. I also think the fact that she didn't get the job that was going to launch her into finacial independence had a impact on her abyss sighting yesterday. I don't want a marriage when it feels like the only reason she is here and trying is because she thinks I'll leave her high and dry if she doesn't meet my needs. Yesterday she felt compelled to call and felt emotional and willing to met some of my needs. After I shwoed her that I was still tied to her through sexual dependency she changed back today. What is this all about?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: This whole idea of needy and clingy vs. strong and independent is interesting. The wife talked to me and said that she felt terrible yesterday. She felt a overwhelming sense of doom. She felt empty, and alone. She also said that she was very hesitant to talk to me about it because she felt needy and clingy. hhhmmmm.Well, there you go. She understands the dynamic. After sex she said that she feels that I'm sexually needy.My W said the same thing. "Even if things get back to going well, we still have this sex imbalance thing." But what I've learned over time is that the sex imbalance thing is somewhat of an illusion....fix the relationship and you solve the problem. A man in a state of intimacy doesn't want to force sex on his tired W. A woman in a state of intimacy WANTS to meet her mate's SF need, even if it means pushing the envelope and having sex when she might otherwise not want to. When you are in a state of intimacy, there is a reward in pleasing your mate or deferring your own needs to give your mate a break. That reward is not there when you are in conflict and your Taker just demands sex, sex, sex; or withdrawal where you turn your interest in meeting your spouse's needs off.AND...what I found is that for me, SF became the focus of other unmet needs. If I didn't have good communications, feel admired, talk much with my W, and, especially, get enough affection, well, sex made up for it. If I felt insecure in the relationship, sex fixed that. Once some of those issues got taken care of, my SF needs tapered down.Since sex is an issue with you guys, it would be great if you could reach a compromise where you both agree to stop talking about separation, actually WORK on the marriage via MB methods, and agree to an acceptable sexual schedule, maybe once a week to begin. That way you remove the sexual tension. Impy, one of the things that changed my W's perception and gave me some leverage was when I stopped pushing for sex, and actually turned her down sometimes when she initiated. I'm not necessarily advising that you do that, but you need to send a signal that you can and will step down your sexual demands in consideration for her current feelings. Mike

She came home from work drunk and raising hell about a unpaid bill. She was hurling insults and totally rude. This morning she wanted to apologize and talk nice and sweet like nothing happended. I'm at the point where I'm totally emotionally withdrawn from this marriage at this point. I don't want to meet any of her needs and I don't want her to meet any of my needs. Then she came up to me later and hugged me and said please stop being so distant, and not talking to me. I had no desire to hug her or have her hug me. She then said stop acting like I was acting towards you. I really don't want to work on the marriage right now. I don't like her very much right now, and I wish she would offer sex anytime soon because I have no desire what so ever. Would love to tell her NO THANK YOU. She really pushed some buttons last night. I've really been working hard trying to be a good father, husband and person. Did not deserve to be talked to like a piece of crap. Won't tolerate it. In fact Im pretty tired of this whole scenario and look forward to the summer of fun in the sun with my boys and seeing how fast I can put the last most miserable 4 months of my life behind me.

Impulsive,I have been reading your story over the last few weeks. I feel compelled to reply at this point. I am sure I'm in the minority, but I think you are making a good choice in focusing on your children and yourself. I don't know you, but I hate seeing you go through this rollercoaster. And for those who think I don't know what I'm talking about, I do. My husband had a PA six years ago, and I had an EA a few years later. We have been through so much, but through it all, we knew that our family was most important and chose to stay together for our daughters.I think there is nothing wrong with staying together for the children, if your intention is to work on the marriage. I married my best friend and didn't want to lose that.I see so many things come out of your wife's mouth that I said. The whole, I want to stay friends with you, I am only staying for the children, etc. The difference is that I decided that I would love my husband. I made a choice and loved him. I am now madly in love with him, and he is with me. He says that never changed for him.Ok, I'm going off here, but I think that you need some time to focus on you. I think you're right in stepping back from the turmoil. No one can predict the future, but you can focus on God, your boys and you. I think you will be great in time.MicheleP.S. I hope this all makes sense. I'm kind of worked up right now and may just be rambling. If that's the case, I apologize.[This message has been edited by MD (edited June 03, 2001).]

Thanks Michele, Those were very supportive words. I agree staying together for the kids is worth it if you have a non abusive situation and the kids are in a positive loving home. I have told my wife while I was trying to make it work that I don't want to be married for the sake of being married. All I wanted her to do was try. If she tried and it didn't work then we could part friends. She refused and the rest is history. Now I've reached a point where I don't want to try. I'm a wonderful husband right now. I would make someone a great husband. My heart go out for some of the women on this board who talk about husbands that don't touch them or love them or have sex with them and it's terrible. I hate to sound so negative but those husband might change once they realize that you realize that you deserve better and won't settle for anything less. I'm so bitter right now for her actions not only last night but her attitude over the last few weeks. I know i have a lot of blame from the past but she seems to be milking me while I was in my doormat phase. I know people say plan A is not a doormat phase but she took the kindness for weakness. The part that frustrates me the most is she gladly soaked up all the benefits of the plan A. As far as the kids go. They love us both. I wish they could enjoy the benefits of two loving parents in teh same house but I have to shoulder some blame because when she was a wonderful wife I was a jerk. The thing I can't seem to get her to understand was that we can't do a single thing about last month or last week or yesterday. I can and we could live for today and for tommorrow. Tommorrow is the first day of the rest of my life and I'm going to make it a positive and wonderful as possible for my kids and I. My wife could be doing cartwheels butt naked with tassles on her tits and I could look at her with no desire because I've reached the point I was trying to avoid. Tired of being Tired.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Now I've reached a point where I don't want to try.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So. You've entered the withdrawal phase of a relationship. That's natural. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm so bitter right now for her actions not only last night but her attitude over the last few weeks. I know i have a lot of blame from the past but she seems to be milking me while I was in my doormat phase. I know people say plan A is not a doormat phase but she took the kindness for weakness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your wife may have been taking advantage of you, but so what? If you were really giving freely, then you were not being a doormat. It should be enough for you to know that. How your wife interpreted your kindness should not affect your integrity. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As far as the kids go. They love us both. I wish they could enjoy the benefits of two loving parents in teh same house but I have to shoulder some blame because when she was a wonderful wife I was a jerk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if you want to do the right thing by your kids, you will continue to work on your relationship as you have been. The only thing that's changed is that now you don't feel like doing it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The thing I can't seem to get her to understand was that we can't do a single thing about last month or last week or yesterday. I can and we could live for today and for tommorrow.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Guess who else needs to understand this, impulsive? Yes, it's you. You can't change the fact of your wife's drunken abuse last night (or whenever), or the hurt she caused you by her behavior. You can tell her what to expect if she does that again. You can tell her how you feel, and what you plan to do. Just make sure you give her no reason to doubt your love and commitment regardless of how you feel. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Tommorrow is the first day of the rest of my life and I'm going to make it a positive and wonderful as possible for my kids and I. My wife could be doing cartwheels butt naked with tassles on her tits and I could look at her with no desire because I've reached the point I was trying to avoid. Tired of being Tired.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, burnout was inevitable at the rate you were going. Time to shift into a lower gear, but don't drop out of the race! If you do, I'll bet you'll regret it.

Dont Cope/Impulsive You are such a man of action - you have worked hard over the last 4 months, you have struggled to become a better person/husband/father. You are working , you are taking care of yourself, you are there for your family. You have made such progress. Don't you feel good about yourself? But then there is your wife. She just doesn't respond to all your hard work. When do you get rewarded? When does she appreciate all that your are? all that you have done? How long can you continue to give, give, give and get nothing? Doesn't she see how you are now making money? How you don't lay around getting fat? Isn't 4 months enough to prove you are different and better? How long can you continue without some good feedback? When do you get yours?????All valid, good questions. And I ask them everyday as I try to pull my H back to us. This is a hard road. I never thought I would stand for this - but you know - it may be worth it. I read your posts, and though my situation is different - we are the same in many aspects. I too am ready to throw in the towel and find someone who will appreciate me. ME!! How can he not want ME! ME! ME!~ I just counseled with Steve H on this very subject. 4 months is not long enough. Keep going - often when we are ready to give up they are just about ready to give in.....wouldn't you be upset to find out that 4 more weeks or 8 more weeks could have turned your marriage around? You said in an earlier post you were giving her until Sept....well, that is a ways away. Steve did say at some point an ultimatim will have to be given. But I have eroded my marriage over a long period and 4 months will not always be enough to repair that amount of damage. If H only gave me 4 months, we would have parted years ago.... Think - can you give a while longer if in the end it may make a difference?STAY THE COURSE!!! I don't mean to be presumptious - but what about your kids? You shy away from posts about them, which leads me to believe that your motivations to keep your marriage together is not melded with their best interests. I may be wrong, but 4 months is not that long when you look at the devastation of a lifetime for your kids. You may not think this is an issue as you have a 15 year old from a previous relationship. But it does effect our kids - STAY THE COURSE! DON'T BE THE ONE WHO WALKS AWAY FROM YOUR MARRIAGE.

You're doing what so few have successfully done! Don't you quit now!The finish line is in sight and you want to drop out? Is your marriage a 50-yard dash or a marathon? Your wife's behavior gives you a perfect lever. What is a mother of 3 young children doing out at night without her husband. Especially since she's getting drunk. What is the role of alcohol in the deterioration of your marriage? Does your wife need help? Is it time for you to be not just here, but at Al-Anon? I'm just asking. The answers are for you to find.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: The thing I can't seem to get her to understand was that we can't do a single thing about last month or last week or yesterday.As GDP brilliantly said, this applies to you as well. Your W threw out an olive branch, don't toss it aside. Your W has six exemplary years and 5-6 rotten months on her record. You have 6 rotten years and 3-4 exemplary months. You both need to forget the past and move forward. That attitude is contagious, you need to adopt it first. By flaming out now you are signalling her that the past 4-5 months have been a herculean effort, an act...that is not what Plan A is supposed to be!! If you are truly unable to Plan A anymore, you need to consider a change in your strategy.....as in Plan B. Are you ready for that? Move out and cut off contact? Because if you aren't going to Plan A, you shouldn't be in limbo.If I were you, I'd try to find the strength to continue. You are only about 100 days into what has been a hit and miss effort. You are getting better. Give it 100 days of a perfect Plan A.Look into your current malaise, exhaustion and frustration (after a few months) and imagine how much of it your W must have had after six years. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 04, 2001).]

I am preparing for the worst because we are both in withdrawal at this point. When I came home from church tonight she said a couple of words went back into her room closed the door no goodnight nothing. Now before this would bother me terribly. Tonight I could have cared less. That is not a good sign. Now she is not talking and I'm not talking and I could care less. I would love to keep trying but there is no gas left in the tank. I paid all the bills today. The bottom line is she feels dependant on me but doesn't want to be dependant on me. However while she is she coud show some respect and gratitude. Treating me like a indentured servant is not exactly the fast track to saving a marriage.

Now would be a good moment to do something unexpectedly nice for your wife. Flowers or candy, with a card. It'll remind her you're not an indentured servant. And it'll remind her how hard you're trying. If you're really doing what you say you're doing, it will buy you more time to keep doing it. And it'll remind you that when you think you're worn out, there is a little more down in there if you just reach in deep for it. Have you spoken to your pastor about your situation lately? He may have some words for you about what you're going through. Maybe Job would be appropriate ... or Nehemiah's struggle to rehab the temple...

I'm really trying to dig down deep and try to keep going but it is very hard. I did a few nice things for her and it just seems like we are letting time pass. I'm not reaching out, she's not reaching out. We seem like a pair of roommates. The ironic part is the kids seem to be benefiting from all the affection and love we aren't giving to each other. I guess that's a positive thing. I'm not a quitter but I'm really at my ropes end.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'm really trying to dig down deep and try to keep going but it is very hard. I did a few nice things for her and it just seems like we are letting time pass. I'm not reaching out, she's not reaching out. We seem like a pair of roommates. The ironic part is the kids seem to be benefiting from all the affection and love we aren't giving to each other. I guess that's a positive thing. I'm not a quitter but I'm really at my ropes end. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, if you're not committing the lovebusters, and you're finding a few nice things to do for your wife, then I'd guess you're doing a pretty good job. It may seem like you're just "letting time pass", but that doesn't mean something isn't going on inside your wife. Whatever that is may be good, or it may be bad, but, regardless, it gives you a chance to let Plan A settle in and work.This is that agonizing time when you can't really do anything but wonder what's happening and work on becoming the person you want to be. Keep looking for the occasional opportunity to meet your wife's ENs (whether you feel like it or not), but make sure you are also finding opportunities to do things for yourself.

Well she invited me to sleep in the bed with her last night. I did and she cuddled a time or two over the course of the night. I'm not getting excited or worked up anymore because the cycle has been very clear. Positive, negative, neutral. Positive, negative, neutral. I will voulunteerily go back to my couch tonight and won't overstep my bounds. My biggest sruggle is with my taker. I find myself trying not to look at her, or compliment her to much because the more I look at her, the more I will want her. If I massage her at night I will get aroused. So I'm sticking to no pressure, no expectations, no physical contact unless she initiates it. Definetely no relationship talks. I'm trying not to give up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Well she invited me to sleep in the bed with her last night.Good!I will voulunteerily go back to my couch tonight and won't overstep my bounds.Smart! My biggest struggle is with my taker.No! You??? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Find a gear where you can be consistent. You comment on how she has wild swings....try to take that out of YOUR behavior (trust me, it is there).Let her be the pursuer a litttle, impy....hey, at least the dynamic is different, right? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I need help dealing with loneliness, and frustration. My first impule is to withdraw but so many people have said that me withdrawing is counterproductive. I don't know what else to do. Suggestions please.

Has anyone seen my taker around anywhere?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Has anyone seen my taker around anywhere?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry. You just missed him. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I need help dealing with loneliness, and frustration. My first impule is to withdraw but so many people have said that me withdrawing is counterproductive. I don't know what else to do. Suggestions please.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you have any male friends? Perhaps from church? If not, can you make some? My friends have been very important to me. My family has been very supportive, but they are not local. So I have gone back and renewed as many friendships as I could, even from years ago (in an attempt to avoid being too demanding of any single friend). If you can cultivate friendships with couples, that's also a good idea. You never know: eventually you might be able to nudge your wife into a relationship that would be a more positive influence than her current drinking buddy.Frustration is born of expectation. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a mental and emotional step back, as long as you don't actually turn away from your wife. Remember, you don't have to feel like trying to meet your wife's needs as long as you do so, and do so freely (without resentment or expecting anything in return). Your attitude is what's important here, not your feelings. [This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 07, 2001).]

I have to be honest and tell you that I'm not meeting her needs because I am so empty and lonely that I don't want to be around or with her. She is so cold and distant that it makes me want to leave. When I'm away from the house I'm as happy and as pleasant a person can be but as soon as I come home it's like I'm saturated in depression and gloom. She's not the least bit interested in any of my needs and honestly I'm not interested her needs. We barely speak because she walks around like she can care less that are marriage is in shambles and it breaks my heart. This is what i was afraid of if I tried to stay plugged into the marriage I would end up feeling this pain. While I was withdrawn I didn't care about anything.

Remember, "Down and Depressed" is not helpful. You want to be just this side of her being able to say you're "pretending there's nothing wrong". Maybe you ought to reread this: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html</A> [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 08, 2001).]

Well things have not got any better. Not even a little bit. It's been over two months since the last time we have actually had sexual intercourse and she says she has no desire what so ever. Where it stands now is she is out for herself. She has her own agenda that is about her independence and self reliance. My money is ours and her money is hers sort of thing. I get the feeling that she is using me finacially to get where she does not need me then she can leave. We have had several relationship talks over the last couple of days and it always end up at the same place. I say just try to make it work, and she says NO I can't I don't have it in me to try anymore. I'm very frustrated right now because I feel abandoned. We are married!! I here stories all the time about marriages that have come back from far worse then what we experienced. Drug addiction, Alcoholism, adultery, and love children. Married people endure. The part that hurts is that I've changed. I would never tell a person to stay in a abusive situation just for the sake of staying married. However if the person is sincerly trying to change and the abuse stops Save the marriage. Twice if there are kids involved. I can't get my wife to understand that we are married and you don't throw marriages out because the going got a little rough. She is itter because during my depressed years our finances suffered. We had to move a few times because the rent was behind. But every time we moved I had the money to get another place. We were never on the streets. One of the reasons I was having such problems is because i was trying to live beyond my means trying to give my family the best. I don't get credit for providing the best I could all i get is the grief for my short comings. I've made some terrible mistakes but I never not loved her or my kids. I think she is taking the easy way out. It's a little hard now so I'll jump off the ship. That is not what marriage is suppose to be about.

She's doing what she thinks she needs to do. There are many other things she might have decided she needed to do, such as build an ark in the backyard. Many of them would be tolerable, if not amusing.The only thing that separates her current plans from those other possibilities is the fact that the plans do not include you as her husband. Q. How does someone figure out that they really don't want to build an ark in the backyard? A. On their own.Anyone who tries to stop them from building an ark in the backyard (brings the permit inspector around, hides the tools, points out design flaws, etc.) is simply an obstacle to be overcome. Perhaps such a large one that in focusing on overcoming the obstacle, the deluded person actually winds up building the ark ... which they didn't really want if they sat down and thought about it, but now that they've got it they have to live with it so they put it in the water and enjoy it.The point is, you need to be accepting of her intention, but not an enabler of it. And you need to separate your devastation that she might leave you from the attitude you show toward what she is doing. But that doesn't mean you stop undermining Ms. Bad Influence.Which brings up a very difficult point: the money she is accumulating herself, and not contributing to the household. I don't like it, but I don't have a good idea what to do about it. Perhaps you should look at some books to find an appropriate countermeasure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I can't get my wife to understand that we are married and you don't throw marriages out because the going got a little rough. She is itter because during my depressed years our finances suffered. We had to move a few times because the rent was behind. But every time we moved I had the money to get another place. We were never on the streets. One of the reasons I was having such problems is because i was trying to live beyond my means trying to give my family the best. I don't get credit for providing the best I could all i get is the grief for my short comings.Maybe your wife is hearing this:"Times were never so bad"(she thought it was a shameful nightmare)"I deserve credit for providing the best I could" (she doesn't hear any urgency to build financial security for the future)""We were never actually out in the street" (he isn't concerned about how close we came)Financial security is a very tough issue. It is deceiving because people want to measure it in dollars, but it has to be measured in peace of mind. And that differs from human to human like fingerprints.I have been on both sides of this issue. Early in my marriage, I was building a good professional career, saw the promise in my business, was confident in the future. My W only saw credit card balances. Now, we have a substantial net worth and investments, but she doesn't see that....she sees monthly expenses, mortgage, property taxes, that are insanely beyond anything she grew up with. Finally I put a year's expenses in passbook savings so she felt secure. Two freaking percent interest.I think your W has a high bar now on financial security, raised because of the past shelter issues. It is probably her number one EN, and it is certainly the number one EN that she is allowing you to meet (with DS and FC). I think you need to show urgency in your financial efforts...it is almost more important to show a changed mindset than it is to bring home $100 more a week or whatever. She may be looking at you and seeing complacency, where she is feeling a red flashing light.My W shocked me a few months ago when I asked her why she married me, and she said it was because I was ambitious (and funny, but I draw no moral from that here). She had a childhood that bordered on abject poverty, three kids in one bedrooom in a tiny 2 bedroom house. I don't know your W's financial background, but she is an ISTJ, right? Same as my W? Anyway, the wolf was always at the door in my W's youth, and she wasn't going to marry a lazy provider.Anyway, in the absence of other opportunities right now, redouble your financial efforts, and make sure she sees it and senses a commitment to THRIVE not just survive.

Mike's post is right on the money. And also echoes issues from my own failed marriage. I'm looking for a way to cause the money from the wife's job not to allow her to leave quickly. There may be some part of an answer in this last posting. It will require some selling--but I think anyone (but her) would agree that money earned by a spouse should go to the family weal, not their individual benefit. The latter is what is happening with the "I'm leaving" kitty. And it should stop.If dCope/Impulsive can convince STBXW that it would be unfair to save while denying him the opportunity to do the same, and he simultaneously sets up an IRA, SEP, or other retirement plan that effectively locks him out of his cookie jar (except on onerous terms), he can cause her to up increase contribution to the household, while at the same time increasing his savings. This would have the effect of crippling her departure timetable while at the same time eroding one of its driving rationales.Assuming he can't sell it, he would need to be ready to carry through on a unilateral decision to start saving--while at the same time increasing a joint debt that she would have to contribute to in the event of divorce. It's a nastier option that could cause abandonment in the short term, but somehow I think that even while dcope/impulsive has done these randy behaviors in the past, he has simultaneously failed to stand up for himself in the marriage (some might label it passive-aggressive). Maybe it's time for yet another change.Of course, the nature of the crisis this would provoke and how it would be handled should be the subject of some debate here before anything happens.My point would be: use a fairness argument to drain some of "her" money and make it "his" money, or at least "their" money (joint retirement account). And try to reach agreement, but be prepared with a secondary plan in the event there is no agreement. She's certainly not following POJA right now, and won't be likely to. He needs to do what is necessary to protect himself and his children. If that's messy, so be it.I'm not saying do it right now, I am saying it needs to be batted around as an idea.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 14, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: Mike's post is right on the money.Naturally, this opinion has me rethinking my entire stance [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I think it would be a fatal error for imp to do anything that will exacerbate his W's frustration over finances. She needs to feel the financial burden easing, not see it handcuffing her to the marriage. This is a hearts and minds campaign, not a financial/logistics exercise in imprisonment. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 14, 2001).]

Mike, I can see your point ... avoiding conflict at all costs. But what she's being allowed to do is to further her withdrawal. I'm not sure that's the right course.I'm not talking about imprisonment, I am talking about not allowing her selfishness to proceed unopposed. She can always walk away from the marriage. With the clothes on her back, without the kids, and into someone's spare room (Ms. Bad Influence's?). If that's her choice, so be it. A marriage is a partnership, not a fairy tale. dCope/impulsive is within his rights to insist he be treated equitably. The fact that for all those years his STBXW didn't insist ... does not change what is happening in this moment. Her suffering ... was in part due to her own failure of nerve or character. And caused dcope/impulsive to suffer too. This is not blaming the victim. Someone who allows something to go on over a long period of time when they had the ability to oppose it ... has given up the right to call herself a victim. One is the victim of a single incident (or even continuing abuse if one is incapacitated), but when it goes on and on ... there is a tacit complicity.Back to the money conflict:There doesn't have to be nuclear war over this. In the best of all possible worlds, she enthusiastically agrees to the proposal. In the worst of all possible worlds, she immediately walks. Of course, what likely will happen is that she will be drawn back into conflict. dCope/Impulsive then needs to try to move through the conflict back into a state of harmony. Without selling out the marriage.Perhaps this isn't the moment. Perhaps it can't ever be done. Perhaps this is the wrong conflict. A gradualist might start saving a little, and ask her for a little more money, without ever having the discussion. I don't think subterfuge would be the right approach. But I don't think just lying down for what she's doing is the right approach either. Again, I'm looking for ideas here too. I just think dcope/impulsive needs to be proactive. Even if that is momentarily painful. Plan A is not about being a doormat.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: Mike, I can see your point ... avoiding conflict at all costs.No, that's not my point. My point is that, assuming that Imp's W's number one issue is financial support, picking fights over money is exactly the WRONG thing to do. Quietly rebuilding her confidence in both their financial state and his future as a wage earner is the RIGHT thing to do. And I think letting her have a little nest egg is the RIGHT thing to do to help alleviate her anxiety and stop her flight instinct. Tapping her small income with a result, intentional or not, of handcuffing her to the marriage may temporarily keep her physically close while shutting her heart forever.Imp should look for opportunities for her to notice him being industrious, thrifty, saving money, paying down debts. DON'T point it out, then it seems like an act. But she will notice over time, and then her attitude may change.

I will touch on the financial issue in a moment but we had a slight conflict this afternoon. While sitting at the computer today she asked me if my son had any activities this weekend. I responded no. She said good, because Ms. Bad Influence invited her and the kids out to her new boyfriend's cabin in the country. I turned and asked intently "Excuse Me" "what did you say". She looked befuddled and said "I'm taking the boys christmas shopping". I said no really what did you say? She said what's your problem with it. I said just because your walking around here acting like your not married doesn't mean that you are not married. For you single, party animal, cocaine sniffing, promiscuious friend to invite a married woman to the country without her husband is totally disrespectful! The reason she does not respect the marriage is because you have shown and told her that you don't consider yourself married! She said that I have not listened to her, or respected her wishes not to be married. I said no it's not that I don't listen I listen very well it's just that I don't agree with your position that the marriage should be thrown away because of the issues we face now. I said let's cut to the chase is there someone else? She said no! I said well listen her is our options at this point. 1. You can leave without the kids. I don't want you to leave but, I can't make you stay here. I refuse to abandon my home or my family. 2. We can try to make the marriage work. You have made it abundantly clear that you don't want to try, and you don't want to be married. I've told you countless times i don't want to be married just for married sake. If you try and it don't work I'll leave volunteerily. I just can't see giving up without trying or counseling, or a legitamate bilateral effort from both of us. 3. We can maintain the status quo. Which doesn't make sense because we could be wasting valuable time. I want to be happy. You want to be happy and the boys deserve happiness. Why not try to see if we can obtain it together? If we can't let's part friends and find people that we can be happy with. My point to her was this. Life is to short to be miserable. Let's be happy. I would'nt ask you to come back to the same BS that dominated our marriage before. You put up with me for years while i was lost and not trying to be engaged in our marriage. Now I'm ready and your withdrawn. I'm noticing more and more that she seems to be becoming more and more resentful of my ability to bounce back from devestation unharmed. She wants me to suffer because she suffered. I understand her pain but the bottom line is i can't live in the past. i can fix the present and the future if given a opportunity. She is becoming more and more entreanched in her position of I don't want what you want. Let's be best friends and move on. I work to dig us out of the financial hole until she is able and secure in leaving. Her perspective is I helped put her in this position so I'm obligated to help her get out. I don't have a problem with that but in the interim she is unilaterally positioning herself for independence and separation. The problem I have is that she is functioning and thinking in the mindset of teammates in the financial realm, but in everyother aspect of life or our relationship she is emotionally divorced already. Is that withdrawal? Taking what you want and leaving the rest. I told her I'm never leaving my home or family. In N.Y. State there are only 9 viable reasons for divorce. Right now I don't think she has grounds. If she leaves it streghths my position for the kis. Then she would be abandoning them. That's another reason I don't want to leave because then I relinquish all my right or claims. I hated to tell her that she had to either stay in the marriage and make it work or leave her kids behind or maintain the status quo, but that is the situation. She feels trapped and i hate that but the fact remains that I'm not the person that hurt her and I would never do anything else to jeopardize my marriage again in life. I have become the person and developed the skills needed to meet her needs. All of her objections are directly connected to the past. Well it ended with her having to get ready for work. My bottom line is I'm not trying to pressure her or talk to her about our situation. I told her I can't do anything else. I've done all I can. In my eyes one of two things is going to happen. Either GOD is going to turn her around or take her from me. Either way I have to live as full and happy a life as possible. I told her I pray that our marriage can survive because I think our kids deserve it and she certainly deserves it. She seems hell bent on focusing on the negative. I'm as happy as a person can be in my shoes. I'm maintaing a positive outlook. I'm nice and friendly, and engaging. She takes the space i give her and places a bigger wedge between us. The other issue is when i'm very nice and we are getting along great it reenforces that the reason things are soooo good is because we are not in the marrige. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. What next. Can someone please give me some stratergy to turn this thing around or get over it??? Please!!

I'd say she's in conflict with you now. It feels worse but it's actually better if you manage it properly. You could work out what you think would be the first step from her toward reconciliation in each area. From there work backward toward what you could do to motivate her to take that first step. And try it. As with all things in life, there are no guarantees. But if she takes the children away to be with people who are doing bad things, either they will learn to do bad things or they will learn to despise their mother. Neither is any good. Hang in there. I feel a breakthrough right around the corner.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: My point is that, assuming that Imp's W's number one issue is financial support, picking fights over money is exactly the WRONG thing to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In my view, she gets to build a nest egg. But no faster than he builds a retirement fund. Impy is not going out to party on these $$$. If he were doing that, the conflict over money would be a destructive one. The conflict over his desire to save could also be destructive, but it has a greater likelihood to be constructive. It all depends on Impy's handling of it and on where she is in her own thinking. I think at this juncture, Impy has earned the privilege of targeting specific behaviors on STBX?W's part that erode the marriage. He and she are going to have to go back into the badlands of conflict in order to get anything resolved.Now, here's a financial security idea you may not have thought of. If you own your own home, and have lived in it two years, you can sell it and up to $500k of gain is tax-free (nonrecognition) income. Interest rates are pretty low right now. You can get into another house, perhaps at or near the cost for your current one. But even if it's higher, you're paying it off over 30 years at a low rate of interest, and the new house should appreciate just like the old one. Meanwhile, you can invest that windfall at a higher rate of interest. Of course, she has to cooperate with the program. And that may be an area where you can start to rebuild cooperative spirit. IMHO, anybody who doesn't buy a beater house in a great neighborhood and fix it up to sell out on a two-year schedule is a dunce, absent compelling reasons to do otherwise. But if you can prove some financial genius to her ... [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 15, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus: If you own your own home, and have lived in it two years, you can sell it and up to $500k of gain is tax-free (nonrecognition) income. Interest rates are pretty low right now. You can get into another house, perhaps at or near the cost for your current one.Well, I'm not an accountant, but if you make $500k in two years that is a pretty amazing real estate appreciation.My understanding of the capital gain exception is that it is a one-time, lifetime deal, and it only counts toward the gain made between the price of the old home and the price of the new home. In other words, it is designed for empty nesters downsizing. If you sell a home for $500 k and make $100k over what you bought it for, but then buy a new home for $550, there is no capital gain issue either way.I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Imp. Mike

We have no idea if or for how long Impy has owned his home. I got $60k appreciation over two years in one I sold, and it was no great shakes, nor did I put much into it. The "one time, over 55" restriction is gone, nor do you need to roll all gain over into a new residence (you're foolish if you do). Now the only question is did you live there two of the last five years--if so, you get nonrecognition. <A HREF="http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-news/at-01-41.pdf" TARGET=_blank>http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-news/at-01-41.pdf</A> In combination with s. 1031 regs, this opens the IRS to spectacular loophole-driven robbery, but I won't get into that here. What this has to do with Imp is, the house will likely be sold if there is a divorce--involuntarily. But what if he "discovers" this source of tax-free wealth, and is proactive now to sell voluntarily? He looks better in her eyes. And if she gets to enjoy moving into a new place (he can condition the sale on her agreement to move in to a new place with him), that may also happily distract her from Ms. Bad Influence. A fresh start, new beginning, etc.There's careful planning, timing and presentation needed. This can't seem like grasping for straws. It could be worked into a larger overall plan. But if the house sells due to divorce, it will likely be a quick sale at a distressed price. Impy's choice.

I don't own a house and I am back in my bed. More details to follow.

Hi Impulsive - I have been following off and on - but keeping very quiet. There is only one suggestion I have to make: Call the Harleys and get some professional counseling. I can't help but wonder why you have not done this yet. Thinking of you.Leanna

I'm going to call the Hrley's soon. I've been thinking about it alot lately. I'm back in my bed because I've been having back pains on the couch. She said well we can switch off and on. So she went to work i slept in the bed thinking she would sleep on the couch. Well she came home and got in the bed with me. No snuggling, no real conversation just sleep. Tonigth I'll see maybe she'll sleep on the couch. Who knows. I don't see the turnaround here. The only positive I see is that she hasn't left yet. I don't get the status quo thing. Why waste time? Tons of small polite talk, no relationship talk, no pressure. She seems adamant that she does not want to be married. She has no desire toward sex or intamacy. She doesn't wan tto even try. So for the last time I'm going forward without looking back again. I'm sleeping in my bed. I'm not asking for sex, or any commitments. I'm not even talking to her anymore about us. If this things turns around it will be because she tried to make it work other then that I'm out of this situation. I said to her today that it blows me away that you were considering taking my boys away from me on Father's Day. She said she didn't know it was Father's Day this weekend. Just like she didn't remember our anniversary. Anyway it comes down to me backing off and getting on with my life minus my marriage as I want it.

Well today I snapped. Started the day very positive. She asked me to not work(rare) and go to a 6 yrs. old birthday party that the boys were invited to. We stopped at the Toy store picked out gifts fought with the boys about the importance of getting thier friend a gift and not thinking about themselves in the toy store. We went to the party at a putt putt and go cart arcade place. She went out of her way to be very distant. It drove me nuts. Cordial but very distant. I mean here we have a perfect opportunity to spend some family time having fun and experience some non-stress quality time. She went out of her way to be distant and cold in her very clever way. On the way home I said I understand now why you didn't want to invite me to the country with the boys. She gave me this look like she had no idea what I was talking about. When we got home she came into the bedroom and said what's the problem. I said you know your becoming very good at your "smiling distance routine" Just see how nice you can come across while acting as cold and distant as you can be. I told her you know what even steel wears out after a while and my patience are way past the breaking point. You don't want to be married well guess what Excuse my language but TUCK It. I quit. I mentioned how she came into the bedroom last night with a attitude about me being in the bedroom. I refuse to live my life like this one more minute. I'm not chasing or begging. I'm not leaving my bed or my house if she doesn't want to be married she has to poup or get off the pot. What a way to go into Father's Day. I told her the reason i was so upset was because i had expectations. I saw a perfect opportunity to bond as a family. She saw it as a opportunity to piss down my back and tell me it was raining. She knew exactly what i was talking about because she didn't and could'nt say a word. I reaching a point where I don't like her very much as a person. I'm starting to not like being around her. I don't have one word to say to her. You know almost 5 months of busting my hump to be a better person has got me no where with this woman. She does not want to be happy with me so I'm ignoring her from here out. She don't like it when i trying to convince her to save our marriage, then she doesn't like it when I stop talking to her. I'm damned if I do I'm damned if I don't. Yesterday i took a half a day off work to help her get around and get a key made for her new car. it's a stick and she doesn't know how to drive it so I sacrifice and ride all over town with her which i didn't mind, but then she turns around and invites me to this party and asks me to stay and then acts like I should be happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood. God know I'm frustrated and fe up at theis point. What else can you do after you done all that you can?

Dcope,Surely you know in your heart that you aren't following a Plan A. Your posts show a clear cycle of following a manic Plan A then a depressive, LB phase. Have you consulted a physician? Your wife's number one complaint about you was your long depressed phase...I think it would be hard for her to trust you again if you don't take care of the mood problem.Those are just my thoughts from reading your posts. I've posted it a few times but you've never responded. Good Luck!

dccope/impulsive:i have been following your story for the past couple of weeks and after having gone through all 34 pages of posts, I have the following advice for you:YOU MUST LET HER GO budI know this is not what you want to hear but at some point you have to stand up for yourself and not allow her to walk all over you ! It seems to me that you have done all you can to show this woman how much she means to you and how much you love her - it has not been reciprocated nor does it seem like it will - quit wasting your time on somebody who isn't worth it and go find yourself a woman who will honor, respect and love you for who you are! A woman you can be proud of!I don't mean to sound harsh with my tone but I feel I have standing to speak on this issue. I too have been going through something similar. I have been with my wife for ten years (married for the last four). I love my wife more than anything in this world. I have never been physically abusive to her, I have never once given her reason over ten years to doubt my faithfulness to her, I am a good provider (ie. professional), and I don't have any drinking/gambling/drug problems.What I did do wrong was not pay enough attention to my marriage the first couple of years. Basically, my wife's emotional needs were being unment not intentionally on my part but simply because I did not know any better. Anyway, to make a long story short, my wife asked me for a divorce over the past holiday season (ie. xmas). It hit me like a ton of bricks! After reeling the first couple of months ( begging, pleading, crying) I got a hold of myself and began PLan Aing my A** off! I believe in my heart that I have done everything humanely possible to show another human being contrition, remorse, unconditional love, and undying commitment to them to last a lifetime. Unfortunately, it has been to no avail. My wife is so far withdrawn and so set on her decision. She has looked me in the eye with a cold hearted viciousness and told me that she does not love me anymore and wants out. I am the only man she's ever been with since she was 18 years old (currently 29).Bottom line - good riddance. I have had it. I will not be anybody's doormat. We are all human and make mistakes. I was man enough to acknowledge them. I too, like yourself, have hung on my wife's every word and action the past six months looking for any sign of hope. I have basically been led on and played like a finely tuned instrument. She simply was running out the clock waiting for me to get frustrated and leave so she wouldn't be the bad guy. Impy, life is too short too waste away on this woman. The world is teeming with beautiful woman that have more character (than your wife and mine). Anyone walking out on a marriage and their vows is a liar and a quitter in my book. That's a simple fact. Call me old-fashioned but that's just the way I feel about it.Commend yourself for giving it your best shot on saving your marriage, like yourself for who you are, and tell her to go to hell.Am I bitter? Your damn right! Who gave these women the right to pull the rug out from somebody's life and turn their whole world around to the degree they have? Good luck my friend -Ace

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I refuse to live my life like this one more minute. I'm not chasing or begging. I'm not leaving my bed or my house if she doesn't want to be married she has to poup or get off the pot ... reaching a point where I don't like her very much as a person. I'm starting to not like being around her. I don't have one word to say to her. You know almost 5 months of busting my hump to be a better person has got me no where with this woman. She does not want to be happy with me so I'm ignoring her from here out. She don't like it when i trying to convince her to save our marriage, then she doesn't like it when I stop talking to her. ... God know I'm frustrated and fe up at theis point. What else can you do after you done all that you can?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, what you don't do is get someone to fall back in love with you by insisting that they act like they're in love with you. And you don't get them to fall back on love with you by chewing them out when they don't toe your line.And you don't do it by violating their sense of their personal spaces (and women feel far more proprietary about the marital home than men--regardless of who is paying for it). If you want to be a failed-marriage statistic and have your kids grow up with a broken home, just keep doing what you're doing. If not, back off the pressure and return to being steady and dependable and all those other Boy Scout traits you took on. Keep getting in shape. Keep taking care of your kids. And keep out of your wife's face, except where her misbehavior is something that shouldn't be seen by the kids, and even then you want to respectfully ask for her to do what she needs to do. In time, she will make her own decision. You can't make it for her. Your job is to influence that decision. Influence comes only when you have a credible carrot or stick to offer (preferably a carrot, especially at first), but influence is diminished to the extent one overplays one's hand.If you were childless, the two of you might very well give up and go your separate ways. But that's not the case. So give her the time and space to realize it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She went out of her way to be very distant. It drove me nuts. Cordial but very distant. I mean here we have a perfect opportunity to spend some family time having fun and experience some non-stress quality time. She went out of her way to be distant and cold in her very clever way. On the way home I said I understand now why you didn't want to invite me to the country with the boys. She gave me this look like she had no idea what I was talking about. When we got home she came into the bedroom and said what's the problem. I said you know your becoming very good at your "smiling distance routine" Just see how nice you can come across while acting as cold and distant as you can be. ...I told her the reason i was so upset was because i had expectations. I saw a perfect opportunity to bond as a family. She saw it as a opportunity to piss down my back and tell me it was raining. She knew exactly what i was talking about because she didn't and could'nt say a word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, impulsive, but I just don't believe that your wife is being "clever" or looking for opportunities to put you in whatever you think she wants to be your place. And I think you are probably making a mistake to draw conclusions about what your wife knows or understands on the basis of her silence. There are way too many alternative explanations for that.Yeah, the reason you were upset was because you had expectations. What have we told you about that? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yesterday i took a half a day off work to help her get around and get a key made for her new car. it's a stick and she doesn't know how to drive it so I sacrifice and ride all over town with her which i didn't mind, but then she turns around and invites me to this party and asks me to stay and then acts like I should be happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You know, impulsive, I suspect that the reason your wife acted like you should be "happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood" was that she really thought that you would be "happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood". To me, it looks as though your wife was making an effort to reach out to you: she actually requested that you be included in family activities. Unfortunately, when your wife made this tentative overture, you suddenly and unreasonably expected a breakthrough experience. To you, your wife's effort seemed miniscule; but to her, the effort may have seemed monumental. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She does not want to be happy with me so I'm ignoring her from here out. She don't like it when i trying to convince her to save our marriage, then she doesn't like it when I stop talking to her. I'm damned if I do I'm damned if I don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you persist in thinking that this is all about you? You're not the only one in turmoil over the situation. Your wife is not happy, period. She's suspicious, defensive, and frightened when you pursue her; and she's lonely, hurt, and frightened when you withdraw from her. The rest of the time she's confused and ambivalent. Your wife is damned if you do and damned if you don't, and she's also damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

Married 2, Manic? Me? You think? Yes I have been very manic and that is because I'm a very emotional person and I'm dealing with a very emotional issue. My marriage. I'm so frustrated i don't know what to do. I'm really at a point where I don't know what else to do. My counseler told me it may be time to read the writing on the wall. It may be time for me to move on with my life. I slept in the bed Sat. night. Sunday morning I asked the wife for a Father's DAy present of Sex. She said we'll talk about it when you get back from church. When I got back she said that she understands my need for sex, but that she can't be there for me that way. She said that she wants me to go out and find someone to have sex with because she can't be there for me that way. She said she was dead serious. I have never heard of such a thing before. It told me that she is really emotionally divorced already. I don't know why I'm still here. I can't win. If I pressure her she runs. If i give her space she just enjoys the distance between us. There is nothing I can do at this point but deal with the reality that my marriage is most likely over.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: There is nothing I can do at this point but deal with the reality that my marriage is most likely over. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think that's the case. You can live simply and perform steadily. You can, without unnecessary drama, recognize that your situation is far less intolerable than many that people around the world accept without complaint, even when they know their lives could be better. That's not to say that you martyr yourself--being in a home with your children is far from martyrdom. Right now, she has not reached a point where the economics would allow her to move out. Having not reached that decision point, she has not thought through all of the implications--sadly, she may in fact act without having thought them all through. What that means to you is that you continue to Plan A ... unless and until she moves out. And for some period of time thereafter. It means you do not make demands on her as wife and helpmate, but that you do not fail to request from her that she fulfill her parental role, and that she take on her fair share of the household expenses as she generates income (regardless of her desire to accumulate a nest egg for herself). Your guiding principle should be the story of Goldilocks, which is really about a quest for the Aristotelian Mean, a concept which today goes by the names balance and sustainability. After all, if the Earth bounced all over the place, do you think the moon could orbit it? As you steady yourself, she will either stay or go, but at least you two will neither collide nor fling yourselves away impetuously. Cold and distant ... clingy and demanding ... you're driving her and yourself nuts.None of us are sure what will steady you. And we're not in your counseling sessions. Your counselor may want you out of a painful situation. That's natural, and understandable. Here on this board there is a bias toward mending, not rending. We think not just of the individual, but of his spouse and children. While it's OK to mentally prepare yourself for the worst, we think the psychological returns will justify the investment of both allowing her to be the one to call it a day, and putting in the effort to remove any justification for her doing so. But that can only be the case if you are able to find balance and focus. But if you can't do that now, what makes you think things will get any better when you and your wife have split up? Do whatever it takes to find that balance and focus for yourself now.

Sis, That was by far one of your better posts. I really appreciate it and it is totally appropriate today. I've decided that I have been to demanding and, I have bounced back and forth between Distant and cold and Demanding and needy. Neither of these are attractive or do anything towards motivating a withdrawn spouse to try to save a marriage. In fact i have given her more ammunition to think that this marriage is hopeless. I have decided to try a flawless plan A. There is a possibility that it's to little to late but while working today I had a breakthrough thought. She was patient and loyal and put up with alot do to the fact that she loved me. I have been saying for months that I love her. Then why haven't I been able to muster up the patience and dedication that she showed while I was in the Twilight Zone? So maybe it's going to take her alot longer to come to the realiztion that I am a great father and can be a tremendous husband. I have a golden opportunity because she is still in the house with me. So any feedback would be greatly appreciated as I'm off to a successful Plan A.

Well I was off on a attempt towards the flawless Plan A when my mother happened. While I was at church this morning my mother called and laid a pretty heavy guilt trip on the wife about her not wanting to try to save the marriage. I ws not prepared for this. The wife was very upset. She felt like I was making her out to be the bad person of the relationship. It turned into a relationship talk. I basically steered clear of talking about us, and focused on the fact that those were my mother's thoughts not mine. The wife seemed upset that I put her through hell, I come to peace with the Lord and develop a very close relationship with God and she feels bitter from her lack optimism, and feels resentment towards my abundance of positivity. She also seems very upset with my roller coaster emotions over the last few months. One day i say one thing the next day i feel another way and my actions contradict what i said yesterday. I'm starting to feel like the less i say the better off I am.

HELP!!! I don't know what else to do. The wife came home from work crying I asked what was wrong. She said nothing she don't want to talk, while fresh tears are pouring down her face. I sat on teh edge of her bed and tried to comfort her. She started in with how unhappy she is. How she just wants to be free. I told her I understood that she was in a depression. I wa there for 3 years. I told her how I didn't understand the effect it had on her until now. I now see what it is to see a loved one in pain and get pushed aside or locked out. I told her that she can and will be happy and she basically said not with me and i said that is hurts to see herin pain. Then she said this was a perfect examplle of me not especting and listening to her. I said how? she said that she said she didn't wan tot talk and i pushed and pushed until he talked. She felt disrespected. I am at a loss. I see the woman I love in ovious pain and crying I try to be compassionate and loving and I'm still a jerk!! WHen i wasn't caring I was wrong now I'm loving and sensitive and attentive and she pushes me out and says I'm disrespectful because it breaks my heart to see her in pain and I can't fix it or comfort her. I'm starting to think that me being here is more trouble then it's worth. She seems miserable with my presence. Should I leave? Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. What do I do?? She her crying and say ok you don't want to talk and walk away with her crying her eyes out? I need help! I thought I was on my way to a flawless plan a but her withdrawal and depressionis so severe i can't get any traction. Could this be to far gone at this point?? Feedback please, I'm at a croosroads.

You can try to give her the gift of clarity.1. Feelings are not wrong to have, although they may be wrong to act on. 2. She is not trapped, and never has been. The reason she feels trapped is that there are things she wants about being in her home with her children and husband, and to leave immediately would deprive her of them. She has also stated a choice which she was not immediately able to carry out. That statement didn't just change her, it changed you. The change in you is gradually erasing the conditions that brought her to her decision in the first place. But when she makes a commitment, she feels compelled to follow through. She needs to know there is no scorekeeper up in the heavens moving her name to the "Idiot" column if she changes her mind (quite the opposite). Her friend may do so, but that is false friendship. No true friend would mock a moral choice.3. Her friend's free-and-easy lifestyle comes at a cost, which is not immediately evident to your wife, because your wife is only tasting it, not eating it and having to digest it and seeing it gather in folds on her waistline. Perhaps your wife should make a list of the things she has that her friend does not have; and then see how many of those things she can expect to still have after she leaves.4. You do her no disrespect by getting her to talk. When you got married, you pledged to be there for each other whatever may come, and one of the conditions included in that pact is that at times one or both of you might be less adequate than average at upholding some part of the pact. Each of you has a right at any time to ask for better than they're getting, or to offer more than is wanted; although of course coercion is out of the question.What you saw was not withdrawal, it was conflict. You gotta go there and keep going there to get this marriage back together. Going there without a third party mediating is perilous at best, but you can't coerce her to allow that; so you'll have to do the best you can until you can reach agreement on having someone else involved.One nice thing is that she really hated the "guilt trip" your mother supposedly laid on her. People who are pursuing a bad course typically resent the involvement of third parties. Their resentment is typically in direct proportion to the extent of their own sense that their feelings are driving them to do something wrong. Who is happier to go before a judge, thief or victim?This is not to say that your mother ought to make a habit of that. Nor should you glory in what your mother did. You were right to say that those were your mothers thoughts. You can afford to be (and must be) much more understanding. Just tell your wife that regardless of what happens in the future, you will be more careful to hide how much you hurt from your mother.When you're doing the right thing and you're criticized for it by her, she is just testing the new you. If she really hates what you're doing, she'll stand up and walk out. When you find yourself back in conflict and it hurts like hell, remember what is going on ... it is sparring, where you prove what you've got. You're wearing each other out, not going for the knockout punch. You're proving you can give and take. You're proving that you will not be defensive and block the deserved blows, you will let them through even though they hurt you. Your vulnerability is part of what she needs to see. Stay the course. Regain the dream for both of you. P.S. -- Has she been to see a doctor about her mood?

No she has not been to a doctor about her moods. So your saying that what we went through last night was conflict? Conflict is a good thing at this point? She has made some comments like "I'm going to be here until the kids are grown miserable, because you won't give up and let me go." Or she has said things like her entire life has been a struggle and she has resigned to never be happy again. When I hear those type of statements I get discouraged but do I understand you right in that your saying that she is in conflict and that's a positive? She woke up this morning happy and chipperry. I on the other hand had to pray myself the stregth to be happy today because her miserableness sent me on a emotional downer. I guess the other thing that makes me think that all is not lost is that she is still here. Isn't it true that when women are truly sick and tired they leave no matter what? Should I look at her stioll being here as a positive or not? Is the longer she stays put increase the likelyhooh of reconciliation or is that just wishful thinking?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She woke up this morning happy and chipperry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why don't you make the charitable assumption that her mood was the result of her receiving attention from you, despite her protestations. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I on the other hand had to pray myself the stregth to be happy today because her miserableness sent me on a emotional downer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, yes, right now she is so needy that when you give to her it may seem to suck all the life right out of you. That's no reason to stop. The exact reason she didn't want to have that talk is that she might connect with you, and might later find through further betrayal that the connection was false. You gained a step, but it took so much out of you that you're ready to slip back. Don't. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I guess the other thing that makes me think that all is not lost is that she is still here. Isn't it true that when women are truly sick and tired they leave no matter what? Should I look at her still being here as a positive or not? Is the longer she stays put increase the likelyhood of reconciliation or is that just wishful thinking? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's positive if you make an opportunity of it. Lincoln said people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. Now, he may not have been correct back then, but I assure you the pharmacological industry would adopt that, with only a slight, obvious twist. I'm off on a tangent here. The point is to keep on the good side of the ledger, keep making progress, keep avoiding pitfalls. If you hear talk about her being there, miserable, until the children are grown, it's time to take some tentative steps toward finding out what things would mitigate that misery that you are not now doing for her. In other words, what's missing in her life that Ms. Bad Influence has been delivering while you're not around? You can't approach this question very directly, unfortunately. I'm sure you'll develop some strategies for finding out. Then start finding ways to deliver. Housework and good behavior and no sexual pressure and no pressure for things to be "all right" is not the entire puzzle. There's more you must do, and you're not only not doing it now, you don't even know about it; and even when you do know it, you'll have to develop a strategy to get it around, over, under or through her defenses. Sorry, bub, it's just another thing you need to tackle. As to you not letting her go, you need to make it clear to her that you don't want her to go, but she has never been without her ruby slippers. Its just that she loses a lot if she goes. And if you have your way, you'll make her life less of a struggle, and you'll put so many more good things on the "stay" side of the ledger that the decision to go will be less and less attractive. You can tell her that you believe the fact that you've been doing that is the reason that she's still there. You could have blown it a lot worse than you did after you got the first talk. Ask her to keep a little tiny corner in her heart for the possibility that you two could be good again. Tell her you will fill it up until she has to allocate more space to it. And more. And more. She just needs to trust you and allow you to do that. You are her friend. Even if she leaves you are her friend. Because of the children, neither of you can afford to be otherwise. Keeping that firmly in mind now will help you a lot in knowing which way to go. And remember, friend is not synonym for servant, or lackey, or yes-man, or anything else. A friend will tell you when you're wrong, and won't aid you in doing wrong.

These are beautiful posts from Sisyphus! Amen. Take this to heart and be steadfast, Imp.She gets a lot out of her crying and venting. You seem to be handling the state of conflict quite adeptly, just don't take it to heart and choose to depress just because she expressed her dark side! Set your sights high and keep helping her work out her feelings and inner conflicts. Thanks Sis!

Well the wife told me this morning that she is "Talking" to another man. I asked how long and she said it's been a couple of months now. She says his name is Dave and he is a musician presumably where she waitresses. She said she did not tell me before because I would still want what I want and I still would not let her go. She reinterated that she does not want to be married to me but she added a twist. She says that now she is at a point where she has not given up on the idea of being happy, and having a future wuth someone else. I told her that everything I have been doing to save our marriage was based on the facts that she said 1. That there was no OM 2. That she didn't want a relationship with anyone. 3. she would never end our marriage by being involved with someone else.I was surprisingly calm and all I told her was that would give her her freedom now. I will not pursue her anymore. She asked would I leave or should she? I said I'm not leaving my house and I plan on fighting for my kids. This shines a whole new light on the entire situation. I refuse to continue to try and save a marriage with someone that is emotionally involved with someone else. She says she doesn't even know his last name and that it's just talk. She says they have not been intimate. He is in the middle of a divorce also. She says this has been going on for 2 months. Exactly the amount of time since our last sexual encounter. So she says she's leaving. I have done my best. I've changed and I've maintained those changes. I have a wife that I have tried to love and support through this most difficult time and this is how she repays me. I can't go any further like this. I'm going back to my bed and back to my life without my wife. I'm going to be the best Man of God I can be. I'm going to be the best father I can be. I will be as friendly as possible to her, but I can't go any further. This is beyond plan A and withdrawal this is a emotional affair whether she considers herself married or not. I'm not going to tolerate it. I won't stoop to her level of immorality and get involved with anyone.

If your wife is telling the truth, impulsive, she may not be involved in an emotional affair at all. She doesn't even know this guy's last name!I suspect that your wife may be testing your boundaries, and this "other man" may just be a ruse to get you to "let her go". If she can get you to call it quits, it's much easier for her to believe that she has been relieved of any responsibility to invest herself in the marriage again.You may have played right into her hands here...The really scary thing is that if she isn't actually guilty of an affair, her increasing efforts to distance herself suggest that she might easily enter into an actual affair for no other reason than to drive you away.She will not find happiness on that path...

GDP, There is a part of me that doesn't believe her at all. I agree with your assessment because before she told me she said so If I'm seeing someone then you'll let me go. I don't understand this whole let me go thing. She has the ability to get up and leave at any time. The only thing I have done is try to convince her to give the marriage a try when she intiates relationship talks. I'm not playing into her hand. I'm not leaving my house mainly because there will never come a time when her or anybody else will be able to say that I gave up on my marriage and children. My boys will never grow up and say Dad moved out, and gave up on us because he couldn't hack the heat in the kitchen. What this has done is put me in a more stable mindframe for a non interrupted Plan A. Now I don't have any desire to talk relationship or try to convince her to give the marriage a try. All I'm going to do at this point is pour into my children and give them the best life I can provide. My focus is off my wife 100%. I love her and I always will but I'm finally convinced I can't force a round peg into a square hole. I will continue to pray for her and our marriage and children but this trying to convince her to try again is out of the question. Maybe me getting my life together and having such a wonderful relationship and fun with the boys will make her feel left out and miss the good parts of our marriage. I put my foot down last night about the bed. I was not trying to over step her boundaries I was just letting her know that my sacrificing comfort to try to make her happy and let life be as easy as possible for her while she watches me twist in the wind is over. I told her I'm sleeping in my bed, I'm not asking you to leave the bed but if you want to sleep on the couch by all means do so. She thought about it for a while and decided to sleep in the bed. No victory just a message that bending over backwards to no avail is over.

Well, it's time to determine whether this Dave exists.If he does, a friend of yours needs to go to him and tell him how you are trying to fix the marriage that you screwed up and assure that your kids grow up in an intact home. Dave needs to know that what he's doing is natural and understandable, but he's not helping this particular situation and he should butt out. That's assuming that this isn't more than you're being told. Right now you think it's less than meets the eye, but it could also be more. Staying in your own bed is your Taker at work. I know your back hurts, and I know you're wife is in the wrong; but I don't think this is the moment to yank back all the slack you've given her. Now that there is an affair of some sort out in the open, you do respectfully ask for your wife to choose. But allowing her to maintain her boundaries while she makes that choice will remove an irritant that might cause her to make the wrong choice. On the other hand, I think you need to ask her to spend some time thinking about what example she will be setting for her children. If they grow up in a broken home, they're likely to emulate that pattern.This might also be a good time to get Surviving an Affair. This turn of events makes me so angry. I know it shouldn't. dCope/impulsive has so far done just about everything we can expect of a husband in a tough situation, and this is the thanks he gets. I feel like sending the CD-RWs to my XW's boss just as an act of solidarity.But wrath avails nothing. I'm doing my best to choose healing over hate. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 26, 2001).]

I don't have the clarity to speak right now, but I don't think it's a bad thing for Imp to be back in the bed. He didn't do it to try to get close to her. He has shown that he will sacrifice for her. I think Imp handled it in a good way and as long as he doesn't initiate sex I think it might as well be a good thing. Let her leave the bed if she is uncomfortable. I think Imp has a good perspective right now. Imp did not try to control her or tell her what to do and he is still respecting her, he did not move back into the bed because he was angry or had an attitude--and from his words it sounds like this came across. She can make distance if she cares to. He has respected her and will continue to.HM

dcope/Impulsive, it might also be time to visit the "Just Found Out" and the "Divorcing/Divorced" boards. The latter not because you are divorcing or going to divorce, but because the people who hang out there are somewhat more attuned to marriages that are in more extreme situations than the "Emotional Needs" folks are. Had I found either of these much more active boards rather than "Why Women Leave Men", (which is a comparative backwater), I would have received a lot more advice and support.

I'm sorry to hear this, Imp.The cold reality of the statistics from watching this board for a year is that when a affair is voluntarily revealed it is usually played down as recent and non-physical, whereas it is often longer term and intimate. I hope that isn't the case here, but it fits the pattern of your W's behavior better than a sudden recent EA.Either way, if she is emotionally attached you are facing a much longer road to recovery, and it could be that you simply do not have the gas in the tank. I'm reminded of several other cases here where the betrayed spouse exhausted their emotional energy and lovebank balance with 6 months of fruitless Plan A on a teflon spouse clandestinely engaged in a heavy affair.I'm left wondering whether the best road in these cases is to force the truth/confrontation/separation from OP/ very early on. I hope that the truth here is merely that your W has formed a friendship with someone going through a similar problem, and is perhaps playing it up in order to get a reaction out of you. I suppose that is plausible as well, although her desire for a "reaction" is saddening.My thoughts and prayers are with you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: ... it could be that you simply do not have the gas in the tank.I'm left wondering whether the best road in these cases is to force the truth/confrontation/separation from OP/ very early on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He's been going to the gas station every Sunday morning. If she's revealing the affair in an effort to finish the marriage, chances are the paramour is getting impatient. Now that it's out in the open ... it can die a natural death. She's been willing to stay and be miserable. I think she should be held to the former, while the latter is mitigated.dCope/Impulsive has plenty to answer for ... now the score may be more or less even (depends on what has really happened). Nonetheless, this should not be the death of the marriage. What can these two people teach their kids about character, and about its redemption?

Hopefully some of you guys can help me figure out what is going on here. I'm as lost as a person can be. My wife came to me yesterday morning and closed the bedroom door and wanted to talk. I just listened because at this point I really don't have anything to say in regards to our marriage. She said that she owed me honesty. She said that the person Dave that she told me about the day before was totally made up. She says that she just said it to hurt me like I've hurt her in the past, and to see what type of reaction she would get. I never said a word I just listened. She said that she has not been engaged in any conversations with anyone about anything. When I came home from work and did the lawn work, and cleaned the house I went to the bathroom to shower. My wife knocked on the door and very sheepishly asked me Why are you still going to that marriage builders website if you don't give a $hit anymore? I was totally confused. I said what are you talking about. She got real close to me and said well you said yesterday that you don't give a crap no more and I'm trying to figure out why you would still be going to the MB website. It was weird but it was almost like a come on! It was like she was testing my resolve. I said I never said I I didn't care. I said your the one that didn't want the marriage remember? She acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. So after I showered I laid in the bed and she went to her sexy undies after her shower and just laid on top of the bed seductively putting on lotion and bady oil. I just watched tv because I felt like I was back in my bed not to come on to her sexually but to reestablish my boundaries. Finally I reached over and whispered in her ear. I never said I didn't care I will always care and I will always love you. She seemed very receptive to my touch all of a sudden. I'm lost. It seemed like she was testing to see if I was serious about the distance I was placing in between us. She seemed really bothered by it. It seemed like she was trying to see if I would melt. I did. Should I have? The wife seemed bothered by the fact that she lied to me about seeing someone. She seems confused again. I really don't have the gas for this roller coaster. I was settling into letting go and she sensed it and reached out, and I reached back. Was it a mistake? Can someone please tell me what is going on here? I wish I would have asked her do you want me to give a crap? It was obvious that she wanted me to care. On a brighter note my 15 yr. old daughter came to me today and said Dad, you seem like a different person. She hasn't seen me in a year. Lives in Virginia with the ex wife. She said you seem so calm and mellow, and nothing seems to upset you like before when everything upset you. I told her thank you but that's the God in me. She said well I like it. The wife also commented that I seem to be very into my daughter. While I was going through my depression that was one of the major Love Busters. I didn't have a real connection with my daughter while she lived with us. I think to push for my marriage at this point would be a mistake. I think I should give her space and continue to be unplugged in emotionally because that way I won't expend any precious energy right now. The last 2 days were the first time I talked to her freely about any and everything except our marriage. I need feedback what is going on? What should I do?

Now she's back to her distant routine! She came out to check my response seen my response would be positive and then back to the same old cold, distant routine. This is starting to seem more and more like a game. What is going on??????????????????????????

What is happening is that you're doing your best to stop her oscillations. If your active efforts are precisely correct, they slow down, but if you're not precisely correct, you can increase the oscillations. One thing that helps no matter what is to reduce tension. I would see rapid oscillations as a sign that the entire matter is approaching resolution. Or let's say the matter could be resolved if handled correctly. This is another chance for you to show steadfastness and not inject additional instability into the system. If you do so, you should gain a step here. I'm not saying you won't go through the whole thing again with a different level of her objections to letting you back into her heart. But you seem closer to the summit, and the gambits to throw you off seem increasingly more desperate and blindly flailing. She's running out of ideas. And when she's completely out of them, she will be faced with the stark choice of breaking up her family based on a past that has been atoned for and is unlikely to be repeated, or staying put. You will have proven yourself ... whatever she does will be solely on her shoulders. Time is now on your side, while hers is running out.

Sis, My steadfastness is based in my determination not to entertain anymore of this unstability. I love her. I love her deeply but we are at different places right now. I am in a place where I want to save my marriage and build a wonderful life with this woman and my children together under ther same roof living in such a way that pleases God. She is at a place where not only can't she get out of the past but she doesn't want to get out of the past and work to save our marriage. I am at a place where all I want to do is love, nuture, respect, honor, and cherish her. She is at a place where she wants to say things to hurt me just to see my reaction, and enjoy watching me suffer. I can't continue to hope for a miracle with someone that in such a negative frame of mind. Even if my past contributed to her getting in that negative frame of mind. I wake up every morning with praise of God in my heart, and wishing nothing but blessings and favor for everyone, and every situation. She says she wants to be happy but sabatoges our chances at happiness by continually underminding any and all of my attempts to EARN a place back into her heart. I have no choice but to continue to pray for God to soften her heart so she can first allow him in so that she can then allow me in. In the meantime I have to back all the way out of the equation in regards to her and I. It's just to emotionally taxing. If down the line she comes around and becomes willing to save our family fine, but in the meantime I can't continue to pour all of my energy and hope in a situation that seems hopeless. I will continue to be a friend and listen to her thoughts and concerns. I will help her any way I can to make her life as easy and happy as possible because we have children here that deserve to have stability, happiness, and a way of life that's fitting of there preciousness. I must also focus on my happiness and right now the main source of my happiness is my relationship with God and my ability to wake up every morning under the same roof as my children. I love the ability to pour into them everyday and develop the type of relationship with them that I didn't have with my father because he took the easy way out and hit the road rather then fighting for his family like I've been trying to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She is at a place where not only can't she get out of the past but she doesn't want to get out of the past and work to save our marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Her actions indicate that she is confused and ambivalent, not that she is dead set against your marriage. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is at a place where she wants to say things to hurt me just to see my reaction, and enjoy watching me suffer. I can't continue to hope for a miracle with someone that in such a negative frame of mind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If you really believe that that's your wife's intent, then you have a negative frame of mind yourself. Your wife is not hurting you because she's sadistic; she's hurting you because she sees a pre-emptive strike as the only way to keep herself from being hurt. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is starting to seem more and more like a game. What is going on??????????????????????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's not a game. It's a dance: the "Dance of Distance". Mary Ann Klausner and Bobbie Hasselbring describe it in their book "Aching for Love: The Sexual Drama of the Adult Child": <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Described as the "rejection-intrusion relationship dynamic" by Family Systems Therapist Augustus Napier in 1978, it involves one partner (the "rejector") feeling suffocated, stifled, and imprisoned by the relationship while the other partner (the "intruder") feels rejected, abandoned, and seeks more emotional closeness.Both partners in such a situation are suffering psychological pain. The stifled partner wants free of the confines of the relationship. The abandoned partner wants reassurance that the relationship will continue. As one retreats, the other chases and clutches more tightly. Each partner blames the other for the problem. "If she'd only give me space." "If he'd only be closer." Both believe that if the other would change, the relationship would improve.Neither partner realizes each is reenacting old childhood conflicts. Intrusive partners seek "oneness" with their partner - based upon the childhood desire for closeness with the parents. They want a relationship in which there are no boundaries between them. Their own identity is based totally on being in relationship with their partner, rather than on a separate identity of self.While intruders want to blur appropriate and healthy relationship boundaries, rejectors strive to limit intimacy by clearly marking off relationship boundaries. Rejectors often divide space, time, materials, activities, hobbies, and even friends into "mine" and "yours." They fear a loss of their identity if they become too close in a relationship. Some rejectors maintain their distance by participating in secretive sexual affairs.To the outsider, it often appears that the intruders are desperately trying to achieve emotional intimacy and the rejectors are running terrified from emotional contact. The truth is that both want closeness and both fear intimacy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The reason it's called a dance is because of the tendency to switch roles. If the intruder gets too discouraged at being constantly rebuffed, his fear of intimacy (i.e. his fear of being hurt) overcomes his desire for closeness, and he will back off. This alarms the rejector, who is afraid of losing the relationship. Her desire for closeness suddenly asserts itself, overcoming her fear of intimacy. She becomes the pursuer, and the role reversal is complete.Of course, once the former rejector is assured that the relationship is not at risk, she has a tendency to revert back to her habitual rejector role, which in turn pulls the former intruder back into his habitual intruder role.Sound familiar?

Behavior of this type is also catalogued under "approach/avoidance" ... there's something about the person you want, and something driving you away. The easiest example would be a skittish little dog trying to get the courage to approach you and take a milk bone. It's a sign that trust must be rebuilt. That means there must never again be a negative consequence from her approach behavior, and avoidance must not cause pursuit -- that would be frightening. Slow, deliberate, nonthreatening movements are the order of the day. The size, tastiness and number of treats must also be multiplied.

Hey, Sisyphus, he asked what was going on, he didn't ask what he should do about it... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She said that she owed me honesty. She said that the person Dave that she told me about the day before was totally made up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't buy it. Was she lying then or is she lying now? Which scenario fits the evidence? Could she have told "Dave" about the conversation with you and he freaked out?I think that an OM fits the evidence of her behavior better.Why don't you call the restaurant and ask if a musical act with a guy named Dave plays there?There are those here that thought this was a probablity long ago. I think that in cases where the truth is hidden for too long, the BS just runs out of lovebank reserves and Plan A energy, and that is where you are heading.In your place, I would say that it is time to determine if there is a Dave or some other OM out there. It is time to flip all the cards over.

I'll echo Mike's suggestion. If you can't trust the admission, it's hard to trust the retraction. If there is an affair and dCope/Impulsive doesn't detect it now, she'll think him that much more the fool. If he detects it, there will be anger, but she and he can then get down to business seeing if the marriage can indeed survive. And Dave or whatever his name is ... can be leaned on a little so that he butts out. Since the time that Ms. Bad Influence was identified, I've thought that perhaps she was the only lurking problem. Now ... it's up for grabs again. People who have affairs often want to be caught. But that doesn't mean that if they do something silly like confessing, they don't attempt a retraction once they realize what they've done. Now that it's happened, a little more detective work is definitely called for. And dcope/impulsive shouldn't forget that names and other details may have all been changed to protect the guilty.

Tonight the wife did by far the most disrespectful thing I could imagine. After my shower I put my gym shorts on and laid in the bed. She then went to take a shower. After taking her shower she laid naked in the bed next to me and seductively lotioned and oiled her body up right in front of her husband that hasn't had sex in 2 months. While she was struggling to lotion her back I touched her back to help and she stopped me immediately. No Thank you I got it. Making it very clear that she doesn't want me to touch her. I roll over to go to sleep. 10 minutes later my 15 yr. old daughter is in my room giving my wife a massage right next to me!!! My wife said they made a deal earlier in the day, my wife makwes her some pants and my wife gets a massage. My wife said the reason she wants a massage is because she hasn't had one in a long time. I was never a option. I was so taken back I just left the room. When they finished I cam back to the room and said over the last 5 months you have said some very hurtful things. However the episode you just pulled was by far the most disrespectful thing I've ever seen!! Your husband is laying right beside you, but rather then ask me you use my Daughter to massage you while I'm in the same bed??? She then said that is why we can't be together because every thing she say or do I analyze and turn it into something it's not. I'm over reacting. I looked at her and said "You came to me and said your not able to meet my sexual needs so please go out and sex someone else." "Then you come to me and tell me that your seeing someone else, then the next day say you were only lying to hurt me and see my reaction. Now you use my daughter to massage you in the same bed I'm in to show total disrespect and disdain, and I'm the unstable one here? It's my fault because alll I've done for 5 months is love, honnor, and respect you and all you've done is say NO, and try to hurt me. I just left the house but I'm tired. This is getting more and more crazy by the moment. The more I'm happy and loving and don't ask for sex, she pushes by doing things like tonight. Then she turns the tables to make me think, I'm over reacting or crazy. Would somebody please tell me if I'm overreacting or am I right in that the massage from my daughter was inappropriate? This could very well be the final straw! [This message has been edited by impulsive (edited June 28, 2001).]

I'm going to have to say that that is pretty darn callous and coldhearted of her. She lays next to you naked rubbing oil on... and then gets your daughter to rub her back. Knowing that you hadn't had SF in 5 months???That's pretty bad. I think you handled it better than I would have. Then again I can't imagine my wife ever doing that to me (even though we have had some serious problems). I'm not sure what to tell you to do! If there is anything that would help it would be getting her to couseling so she can release this bitterness and anger at you.Wilham

She's trying to drive you to be the one to either leave, or to be the first to really go ballistic so that she can have the cops move you out. The good news are that these are not the actions of someone who can get to the place they want to be on their own. If the marriage is to be rent asunder, she will have to get your cooperation in destroying it, at least right now when she's not feeling ready to move out on her own. Are you actually falling for her crap?To the extent she has signs that her gambits are moving in the right direction, getting closer to that hidden red button that will make all hell break loose, her frustration is tempered by the progress she feels she is making. You are the only one giving her a sense of progress. Or denying her a sense of progress. Denial is obviously the better course. Hopefully, the result will be that she quits that. Right now, the sham marriage scenario where you maintain appearances in a dead marriage ... is the most she feels she can offer you. Take that as your baseline. You can complain about whatever she does to negate that appearance. You cannot ask for more substance. She must offer that freely, and if she wants to pull it back, you must be accepting of that. Your job is to simply continually offer the next step more than that sham baseline ... and do so patiently, until she feels both safe to match it and compelled to match it. Then you move your bar up a little higher and wait for her to join you on the next level. You do not act as though you can make any claims that history would not support, and you do not offer anything heavier than what's appropriate for the next step above where you are now in the relationship. It's the moments when you do that--jumping over intermediate rebuilding steps ... those are the moments that cause most of the trouble. If she reciprocates, then at some later time she feels a compulsion to undercut the closeness that she fears. You have every right to ask why she is doing something so cruel. Well, she is simply feeling the absence of certain things in her life. You are available to provide those things. She lacks the resolve to swear those things off, even when the results are messy for her. And when you come running and provide for her needs ... then can be stuffed back in your box ... well, the results aren't too messy for her.There are a lot of strange dynamics at work. Regardless of how you're feeling, she is feeling much more confusing feelings, because the onus is on her to act if she is going to get the changes she wants. You're not handing justification to her. Are you?Supposing you "fail" and she ultimately walks. Do you want it to be over some single large faux pas or a pattern of ongoing bad conduct on your part? Or would you rather she have to leave for the flimsiest of manufactured excuses? In which scenario do you clearly occupy the moral high ground? My point is: you must not punish things she does that displease you. Reward is the only thing you can safely offer.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 28, 2001).]

I disagree with the recent posts here reacting to this incident.[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: She then said that is why we can't be together because every thing she say or do I analyze and turn it into something it's not. I'm over reacting.Are you hearing her and thinking about this? Because I think there is a lot of validity in it.If she had grabbed a towel and hid in the bathroom, wouldn't that have ticked you off? Is that what you want?If she had let her rub oil on her back, might that have led to a situation where she would have to remind you of her boundaries?If she had chosen to complete her deal with your daughter by going to another room or asking you to leave, would you have exploded on that?You are back in the bed over her objections, you have to expect some awkwardness on intimacy issues.I think she honestly feels that she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, and that is what she is saying. She's tired of being damned.How might you have handled this differently? Harley told me, when my W was being touchy on intimacy issues, to act "casual" and respect her boundaries. What if you had ASKED if she needed help on her back rather than touching her? What if you had just bantered lightly with your daughter during the massage instead of overreacting? Or casually wandered out of the room to do something else? You don't need to pick fights right now, that is the last thing you need. You are not going to guilt trip or discipline her into a state of intimacy. You are entrenching on your rights of "intimacy" and your "rights as a husband", but you aren't hearing her -- she isn't playing by those rules anymore, whether due to your 6 years of admitted neglect and lovebusting, or perhaps an extramarital entanglement on her part. You only hurt your position by pushing those intimacy issues right now. She doesn't feel comfortable with you giving her a massage right now. That hurts, that is painful to hear, but that is the situation, and railing against it and acting "disrespected" due to her acceptance of affection from her daughter and her rejection of it from you will only force her hand to remove herself from an uncomfortable living situation.I'm not blind to the fact that she may be engaging in some low level "dissing" and testing with some of this. But ask yourself -- did you pass the test? [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 28, 2001).]

Well, impulsive, I think you handled that situation about as well as it could be handled.I don't think that there can be any question that your wife was deliberately trying to provoke you, and frankly I think it is despicable that she used your daughter to do it (although your daughter is, of course, innocent in the matter). Your wife is clearly trying to drive you away. Her accusation that you overreacted is the twist of the knife, as nasty as the twisted logic that says harmonious living is impossible if you are so observant as to notice it if she happens to slap you in the face. (By that logic, only an inanimate object would be capable of living with her.)You did not overreact, despite what your wife said. If you had pretended that such disrespect was acceptable, you would have appeared weak and your wife would have despised you. If you had pretended that what she did had no effect on you, it would have appeared that she didn't matter to you, which would likely have provoked even more outrageous acts as your wife attempted to measure the emotional distance in your relationship.I appeal to your love and to your pride. For your pride's sake, don't give your wife the satisfaction of driving you away through such petty manipulation. For your love's sake, recognize that this was a sick act by a very troubled soul, and forgive your wife. She does not really know what she is doing.Regarding the possibility of your wife having an affair, I don't know what to think about your wife's retraction. But if it's her retraction that's the lie, then I'm guessing the details she initially provided are pretty close to the truth. I don't think it's typical for someone who is guilty of something to make a spontaneous confession of something they didn't do, when no suspicion was cast on them in the first place. That situation calls for keeping a low profile.So I suspect that either she made everything up and was frightened by the strength of your reaction to her revelation, or that she pretty much told the truth and was frightened by your reaction, or that she was feeling you out for the possibility of a full confession and had second thoughts. But I don't know how to tell which (if any) of these possibilities is the reality.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: I think she honestly feels that she is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, and that is what she is saying. She's tired of being damned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Of course she is, but she's damned herself and doesn't want to admit it. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How might you have handled this differently? Harley told me, when my W was being touch on intimacy issues, to act "casual" and respect her boundaries. What if you had ASKED if she needed help on her back rather than touching her? What if you had just bantered lightly with your daughter during the massage instead of overreacting? Or casually wandered out of the room to do something else?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>All of that would have been advisable and appropriate. Calling her on her disrespect doesn't require hysterics or histrionics, but I think impulsive still needed to say what he said. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You don't need to pick fights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sometimes, I think you do. What's important is that you pick the right fights to pick. Er...yeah.

An important clarification: When I said your wife was deliberately trying to provoke you, impulsive, I didn't necessarily mean that she was consciously trying to provoke you.I think it's highly unlikely that someone exhibiting behavior as erratic as your wife's is carrying out some machiavellian plan. She would have to be an incredible actress with an extraordinary intellect to pull something like that off.

The wife wanted to talk Thurs. morning I listened again. She wanted to say she was sorry for the massage issue and let me know that she loves my daughter like her own and never treated her like a step daughter. I basically told her that I never questioned her love for my daughter. I told her that over the last 5 months she has said some very hurtful things. That on Father's Day she told me to go have sex with someone else because she can't be there for me sexually. That she made up a fictitious affair, then recanted. Then the massage issue. I told her that for some reason ALL I WANT TO DO IS LOVE AND NURTURE HER, AND ALL SHE SEEMS TO WANT TO DO IS HURT ME FOR SOME REASON. She started crying but I didn't have it in me ot go hug and hold her like I normally would. I just told her that I was praying for her and i wished her happiness but my days of sitting around being hurt and slapped in the face were over. Friday night was nice the SF fairy showed up again and we had tremendous oral sex. It wasn't the traditional intercourse but after 2 months who's complaining? My primary focus is to make sure I don't do anything to make her regret the SF. Not overstep my bounds or act as though the Sf intitled me towards something. I'm not jumping off the wagon because of last night but it was very nice.

I have to say I don't see where she did anything wrong.Impulsive, she has said she's not ready for intimacy from you. Why can't you respect that? In the past, massages with you have NOT been affection, only a prelude to SF. She wanted a massage, not intimacy with you. Why shouldn't your daughter give her one? I just don't see the big deal? In her place, I'd really be wanting to leave a situation where I couldn't do anything without being blamed for trying to hurt you.She knows you can't do the massage without getting worked up. And believe me, having been there and done that, it does not make a relaxing massage when SF expectations that you don't want to fulfill are there (same goes for "hugs" "kisses" that are not affectionate but obviously where one partner wants them to lead to SF on a withdrawn partner).Impulsive, why do you think her every action is designed to hurt you? Do you really believe that the woman you married is that cruel? Can you work on your self-esteem to help that? Or anti-depressants?Those are just my thoughts, having been the withdrawn spouse. My H let me have lots of space while I was learning to trust him again. That helped a lot.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by married2alcoholic: Those are just my thoughts, having been the withdrawn spouse. My H let me have lots of space while I was learning to trust him again. That helped a lot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is a great post, and I hope Imp heeds the thought. I opined to him in the past that the episodes where his W "allowed" him to massage her were actually him getting his affection need met, masquerading as him meeting some EN of hers. So what looked like an EN met was actually a LB for her.I would guess that the most recent sexual contact was more a case of her guilt kicking in, or perhaps could be a positive sign that she wants to do the minimum to keep him around while she continues to assess the changes.The concept of space is important. I'm not sure, but on my optimistic days I sort of feel like I am in this "giving the W space" phase while she mentally regroups in our relationship. The discipline is keeping your ups and downs under wraps while your mate recovers, for months or maybe even a year or more.This thread illustrates the wild swings of the steering wheel that Imp goes through. We all do, I did too, but I know my up and down periods lasted weeks, and his seem to change daily sometimes, which must be very wearing on his W, particularly as there is a dynamic where she is blamed for triggering these reactions, whether through actual overt slights or misperceived actions.

Married2- I appreciate your opinion. It was a matter of principle to me. I felt disrespected. The wife admitted that for some reason she wanted to hurt me in the worst way. She wanted me to feel the pain that I caused in the past. She says she has a problem with my sense of absolution. She says that deep in places she doesn't like to think about she knows that our family should stay together because it's best for the kids. Her main objection is that she doesn't feel as though I deserve another chance. Then it's the risk aspect of the situation. I'm close to perfect now but what happens if I discontinue my relationship with God? She has said that the only way I can be the person I am is when I'm close to God. She feels like there is alays a chance that I can go back to being the person I was. SO right now we are on a real positve roll. We are sleeping in the same bed. No pressure for sex. No expectations. Yesterday we went to a party out in the country at a friends cottage with the kids. We had a great time. I gave her space and just enjoyed being able to spend time in each others company. I would have liked to be a little closer but hey it's better then alot of scenarios over the last 5 months. We have another camping trip scheduled for the 4th that we are really looking forward to. So alls well in Lala Land right now.Mike- I understand and accept your interpretation of me getting my needs meet under the guise of meeting her needs. I try not to intiate any contact unless she gives me a indication that she is open to it. (Tricky) The last SF situation was intiated by me. Laying in the bed, I asked if she would be offended if I masturbated because I couldn't sleep and was hot and bothered. Next thing I knew she had her hand on me. She asked me to go down on her as gave me the big O and I didn't object. So whatever the implication it was welcome.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: The wife admitted that for some reason she wanted to hurt me in the worst way. She wanted me to feel the pain that I caused in the past. She says she has a problem with my sense of absolution. She says that deep in places she doesn't like to think about she knows that our family should stay together because it's best for the kids. Her main objection is that she doesn't feel as though I deserve another chance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>These admissions are encouraging, not so much because she made them to you, but because she made them to herself. Unconscious feelings tend to be more dangerous than conscious feelings, because there is no way to put them in proper perspective.Regardless of whether or not you "deserve" a second chance, your wife is punishing herself in order to avoid giving you that second chance. Very sad. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Then it's the risk aspect of the situation. I'm close to perfect now but what happens if I discontinue my relationship with God? She has said that the only way I can be the person I am is when I'm close to God. She feels like there is alays a chance that I can go back to being the person I was.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Once one has lost one's naive trust, one can never get it back. But although your wife understands that she cannot give you that kind of trust, does she understand that she will never be able to give it to anyone else either? (I'm not suggesting you ask her that question right now, since you don't want to jeopardize the current positive vibes.)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Laying in the bed, I asked if she would be offended if I masturbated....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ahh...the classic, suave Cary Grant approach.

Well I don't want to type to loud but I think I may be on the brink of a minor breakthrough!!! Thank You God!!!!!!!!! Last night was very positive she made some encouraging comments that blew me away. She came u to me and said would you be upset if your daughter gave me a back rub? Then she started talking about how she's really trying not to upset me and then she said this. You know just because I haven't said OK let's make it work doesn't mean I'm not trying to make it work. YYYEEESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Things have been very good for the last couple of days so it was encouraging. I'm trying to not jump off the deep end, but I'm as happy as I've been in 5 months. Then last night while sleeping together she came up behind me and cuddled with me. Then we cuddled watching a movie before bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Could this be the real deal????????????

Now might be the perfect moment for a weekend marital retreat. PAIRS, Retrouvaille, Gottman or the like. Remember, you're not going to suddenly break through into marital nirvana. Rather, you're going to gain one step at a time, and occasionally slip back a bit. But if you find your equilibrium, sooner or later you'll be moving ahead OK, and you'll be in familiar and hospitable territory.

Well that was a short lived break through. We ended up in a relationship talk and she said that al she is doing is trying to be nice to me. I am taking her niceness and turning it into maybe we have a chance. She says she still doesn't want the marriage just the friendship not the relationship. Everytime I get close I get excited and throw caution to the wind. This is becoming a pattern Positive Optimism Negative HopelessnessWhy do I continue to put myself through this?We had just enough SF today for her to have a not so invisible orgasm and then decided that SF was not what she wanted before I could have a orgasm. She is sabotaging any chance for happiness. I'm convinced she does not want to be happy.

Actually, impulsive, this is all encouraging. Remember the analogy of the skittish wild animal? Every time your wife gets closer, she shies off again. That's exactly what you should expect in your situation. But the overall trend is still toward greater closeness.Remember, a few weeks ago you would have been overjoyed to find yourself in the position you are now in. I think you just have to be patient and stay the course. Don't let your expectations grow so fast.

Slow and steady wins the race. But be sure to satisfy the last shadow of a doubt about the existence of an affair. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited July 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Well that was a short lived break through.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, a statistical analysis of this thread shows that it was within 4 percent of the mean average survival time for a breakthrough.Impy, I'll ask you a few questions that Harley would periodically ask me in our counseling....Do you know what her lovebusters are, and how are you addressing them?Do you know what your annoying behaviors are, and how are you addressing them?When you can't make progress on ENs, you have to tackle LBs, because you can't make any progress while annoying behaviors and LBs continue. Call it a hunch, but given the back and forth nature of her actions and reactions, I think that annoying behaviors and lovebusters are the area you have to conquer before you make substantial progress.What were her LB questionaire results? Maybe it is time to ask her to take it again. I had to ask my W to take it three times before the dam burst and I got an honest set of answers.I would also echo Sisyphus that you need to settle nce and for all whether she has an outside relationship influencing the situation, and you can't settle that by confrontation, you have to settle it by investigation. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited July 05, 2001).]

I am confident there is no one else. Things seem to be turning around very well lately. Wonderful Sf yesterday morning and more and more she seems to be calling me sweetheart and honey while talking to me. It's almost like the intiamcy is coming back but without any fanfare. It's obvious the wife is still committed to the marriage, she just doesn't want to say she is. She obviously doesn't want to leave or divorce she just doesn't want things to follow the old pattern extreme frustration - sex - act like everything is ok.The lovebusting is trying to force her to do thngs according to my timetable and my way. Financial security is her #1 need and I'm working hard to meet it as we speak so off to work i go and keep me in your prayers. For the first time in a long time I am encouraged by her actions and not by my perception of her actions.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: It's obvious the wife is still committed to the marriage, she just doesn't want to say she is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Heh, heh. Yep. But whatever you do, don't let on that you know this. In fact, if she realizes what's happening, you may have another setback. It's kind of like walking on a high narrow ledge. She'll be OK as long as she doesn't look down...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: It's almost like the intiamcy is coming back but without any fanfare. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've been getting a taste of this lately myself. Harley was constantly on me about needing to be casual about sexand affection, and it is an incredibly hard discipline to master. ButI recently find that breaking my pattern of being either clingy or angry, and trying to be calm and in the middle, pays wonderful dividends.

Things are very weird. It seems to be in a very twlight zone like holding pattern. I'm scared out of my mind to do anything that may set us back into the negative zone. I scared to ask for SF, I'm scared to talk relationship. I'm just scared. How long can things stay like this? Is time still on my side?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I'm scared out of my mind to do anything that may set us back into the negative zone.Good!I scared to ask for SF,Good!I'm scared to talk relationship.Good!This is healthy, Darwinian, survival fear. Harness it and use it. Go one month without initiating relationship talks or pressing your needs on her. See what happens.If she launches into a relationship discussion, LISTEN...don't react. Hear her out. Repeat back what she is saying so she knows you are listening. DON'T ask her for her feelings about the future. You won't like the answer right now, and making her say it will only reinforce it in her mind.Unfortunately, you have trained her over the last few months that any positive cracks in her armor unleash a wave of demands about your needs and questions about the future and her feelings that she can't/doesn't want to address. When she treats you like crap, none of that happens, you don't cross her boundaries, and she is comfortable.You have to show her that she can drop her guard and you will still respect her boundaries.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Things are very weird. It seems to be in a very twlight zone like holding pattern. I'm scared out of my mind to do anything that may set us back into the negative zone. I scared to ask for SF, I'm scared to talk relationship. I'm just scared. How long can things stay like this? Is time still on my side?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Keep playing Boy Scout, stay relaxed and open, do unexpectedly nice things without expecting anything in return, go to dinner and to see a family movie as a family. Practice tranquility and acceptance, but keep your eyes open for ways to gain that next step ... not because you just want it, but because it's time to take it.

Duplicate Post.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited July 10, 2001).]

And another duplicate post ... this board was acting up yesterday ... not confirming posts.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited July 10, 2001).]

Things have taken that expected setback. The wife seems intent on trying to hurt me and I'm tired of being hurt. I don't want to talk relationship because I have reached a point where I really don't care anymore. My wife has become a person I don't even like as a person anymore. She is disrespectful, and rude, and stays out all hours of the night drinking and comes home and gets in the bed smelling like a liqour bottle. She swears without remorse and it's such a turn off. I tried and the next time she initiates a relationship talk I will tell her whatever she wants to do God Bless her. She said that she wants to move out in a month or so. I said O.K. I've reached a point where the pain I'm enduring is not worth the journey anymore. I'm a better person. I'm a better father. I pray for her daily and wish her nothing but happiness. I won't ask her to leave but I won't respond to her disrespect and demands for my attention anymore. She seems happy as long as I'm engaged and suffering. My suffering days are over and my days of considering the hope of reconcilliation is over also.

<A HREF="http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/</A>

Bumping this thread to the top. It's a week later. What's new?

Things are better actually a lot better. We seem to be getting closer as long as we don't talk about it or make mention that we are working things out. It's like a reconciliation by default. We have hade several SF sessions and no arguing at all so considering where we were I guess we are doing great. He grandmother is staying with us for a couple of weeks so I'm on my best behavior.

Be granny's favorite son-in-law, but don't let her linger too long....On second thought, I bet your wife's drinking drops dramatically when her mother's in the house! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Who knows, maybe wifey will get out of the habit![This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited July 23, 2001).]

Well the wife and I had a relationship talk for the first time in a long time. I said that it seems to me that she is dependinng on me more and more finacially. I told her that I don't have a problem with that but that it seems that she has a one track mind. HER AGENDA. Evreything is still her needs and her wants. My needs don't even enter into the picture. She said that she was there for my needs for years. Now all of a sudden I've changed and I want her to throw out the past. She said that she can't do anything about her feelings towards the marriage and that it's impossible to please me. She said that when she is independent I complain that she is leaving me out. When she needs me I complain that my needs are noot being met. Wwe are in a better financial situation now but the problem is that I generate alll the income. She wants to take off and do her own thinng but she can't afford to. It's like the only reason she is still here is because she can't afford to leave. How do I get her to fall back in love with me? She says that she only has sex because I want to. She doesn't feel that spark. That loving feeling.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She said that she can't do anything about her feelings towards the marriage and that it's impossible to please me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She's right about her inability to change her feelings. All she can do is change her behavior and possibly her attitude.Does she understand that it isn't her responsibility to please you? It's not, you know. She is only responsible for what she does. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>It's like the only reason she is still here is because she can't afford to leave. How do I get her to fall back in love with me? She says that she only has sex because I want to. She doesn't feel that spark. That loving feeling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wouldn't take her too seriously when she says she only has sex because you want to. She may well want to too, but she doesn't want to admit it to herself. But be very careful not to be demanding in that department.As far as "getting her" to fall in love with you, you can't do that. You can keep up with Plan A and see what happens. I still think your chances are good. And it would be nice if at some point you could get her into counseling.

Hi Impy,[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: Well the wife and I had a relationship talk for the first time in a long time. I said that it seems to me that she is dependinng on me more and more finacially.I think that FS is such a major issue with you guys that I would try to focus on accenting the positive rather than ratcheting up the tension by tossing blame on her. She wants a provider. Focus on being that.Evreything is still her needs and her wants. My needs don't even enter into the picture. She said that she was there for my needs for years.Yep. Your Taker burned her love out and it is a long road back. Everytime you bring up your needs, it throws her back to that mindset. You say that your needs don't enter into the picture, but she is giving you SF, right? And that isn't for her needs, she says. So you may not like hearing about her lack of desire, but you have to recognize that the SF she does give is in order to meet your needs. When you ignore that and say "my needs don't even enter into the picture" rather than saying "thank you for Sf for my needs even though you don't feel the need yourself" you just make her remember how your needs were a bottomless pit for her for so many years. She probably feels that it is impossible to please you.She said that she can't do anything about her feelings towards the marriage and that it's impossible to please me.I knew it! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Think of where the "pressure points" are where she feels burdened by your needs (SF?) and see what you can do to impress her by backing off.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She doesn't feel that spark. That loving feeling. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm surprised she feels anything after all that drinking.

GDP, Mike, SIS, You are all right. I think I need to spend more time thinking about the positive. The fact that she is still there is a positive and the fact that I have recieved some SF is a positive, but I've been caught up on the fact that it's only when I ask or intiate aand it's never at her prompting. FS is so important to her that it's scary. Ii will focus on being the ultimate provider. Why do I have things feelings like when everything is all better she will be happy again is like a fair wheather friend?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: The fact that she is still there is a positive and the fact that I have recieved some SF is a positive, but I've been caught up on the fact that it's only when I ask or intiate aand it's never at her prompting.Yeah, well, baby steps. Her desire will return when her love returns, and that won't happen until you stop pressuring her on your needs. It is a viscious circle, huh? FS is so important to her that it's scary. Ii will focus on being the ultimate provider. Why do I have things feelings like when everything is all better she will be happy again is like a fair wheather friend?Seen from a different perspective, she is still there when others might have left, so that is a pretty good friend, huh?

Well Grandma is still with us and I don't mind in the least bit. The problem is that there is absolutely no intimacy between us at all. I pay the bills and handle all my husbandly and fatherly responsibilties but as for us getting any closer.. ZIP, Nothing, NADA. I'm lonely and I feel like giving up. I wake up every morning and go to morning prayer. I leave prayer and go to the park to jog. I leave the park come home shower, and go to work. I come home from work and try to do something fun with the kids, Park, beach or baseball game. I come home she says HI, and goodnight and we have no contact or conversation other then what bills are due and how much money she needs. I don't complain. I don't come across annoyed because that does not help matters. In fact I spend alot of time coming across as positive as possible. It's just getting pretty old at this point. 6 months later and saga continues. I'm convinced that she does not want to be married to me. She wants to be independent. However she can't afford to be independent so in the mean time she just stays in the same house while I maintain and make financial progress. It's a real empty feeling. Yes she is still here but only because she can't afford to leave. No contact, very little if any interaction is wwworse in some ways the her leaving. I think.

My question would be: Is Grandma's presence keeping her sober? And if she is sober, how is she coping with that? If her lifestyle is being altered, and you are able to maintain a positive attitude and interaction, her attitudes may start to change as well. It's not really easy for anyone to know that without more description from you, but whatever keeps her away from Ms. Bad News is certainly good (unless Grandma herself is bad news, which I doubt ... you don't get that old being bad news). Why not try a little test. Think of her favorite romantic restaurant. Ask her: "If Grandma watches the kids, do you think we could go out to dinner?" If she has been denied such outlets for a while, you may be able to get her to do that. After that, you're on your own to work your own magic, if you still can.

Gramma is leaving in a few days and she has been sober since she has been here. The problem is this... The wife is totally content living day in and day out in the limbo position we have been in for so long now. I've reached the end of my rope and I asked her the other morning what are you going to to do? Are we going to save our marriage or let it go? She said she'll think about it. I've haven't asked again because I'm tired. I'm emotionally drained. I told her today that I can no longer live this way. I need a partner in life. A friend. Someone to confide in, someone to talk to, cry with, laugh with, and have fun pursuing common goals. Giving our children the type of life they deserve. I told her that I can't hear one more time how much the past affects her because I can't do anything about the past. She won't get consuling or try to repair the damage so sitting here crying about last year and earlier is a waste of time. She listened and didn't respond because I had to get Gramma off to dialysis. But on one hand had she said she would think about saving our marriage a few months ago I would have thrown a huge bash. Now I'm not as excited because I've been struggling through life alone while she enjoys all the benefits of being married to me with out any of the responsibilities.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I told her that I can't hear one more time how much the past affects her because I can't do anything about the past. She won't get consuling or try to repair the damage so sitting here crying about last year and earlier is a waste of time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Says you. She needs to do it to process her feelings, and you need to mirror those thoughts back in order for her to understand that she has been understood. She needs to know there will be no repeat. She needs to know that you will continue to do what you can to repair it. And the fact that the damage you've done has made her less of a good person than she in fact could have been (or could be now) should give you pause, not make you throw in the towel when victory has come into view. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> ... had she said she would think about saving our marriage a few months ago I would have thrown a huge bash. Now I'm not as excited because I've been struggling through life alone while she enjoys all the benefits of being married to me with out any of the responsibilities. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You should be happy with what you have done. Exhausted, yes; wanting to never go through that again, yes. But happy nonetheless. I'm sure she didn't shuck all her responsibilities, but those she did shuck ... were because of damage you created. If you've kicked the hell out of somebody, could they be expected to carry your suitcases, even assuming they were still willing? She is getting counseling already, in the form of your daily example. It has led her to where she is now. Keep it up, be ready for the occasional setback, and keep coming here for the support you need (along with the occasional kick in the behind). Remember, when you rebuild a wrecked city, it almost always comes out better--there are opportunities amidst the rubble.

Wow. Deja vu. Double post.[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 08, 2001).]

Well it didn't take long for things to go from the frying pan into the fire. The last week as been hell on earth. Thursday night the wife asked if I was ok taking the kids while she goes to a concert. She said she was going to the concert and coming right home. I took the kids to opening night of the county fair and returned home about 3 hours after the concert was over. No wife. She come home at three in the morning drunk. I didn't say a world I just went back to sleep. The next morning I did my normal routine. Morning prayer, jog at the park and then I came home to shower and go to work. Wife still sleep. I came home early to take Granma and sister in law to the airport. Wife mets me at the curb yelling hesterically about her purse is missing. I told her I haven't seen it and she seemed convinced that I was not truthful. She went to my truck and proceeded to search it. I was pissed off but didn't let on just aggravated at the apparent lack of trust. I said to her as I was leaving I told her I felt like a criminal. After I came home she said you know what I realized today ? She said that no matter what she will always think the worse about me and she said she does not want to be in the marriage because she can't trust me. I told her that She wins and she has me exactly where she wants me. I don't want to married anymore either. She said fine well leave. I said I'm never leaving my house. That conversation ended somewhat abruptly because after that I left. I went to the mall later and bought her some Godiva Chocolate and Viky Secret agiain because I felt like just because she was being mean and rude to me was not a reason for me to lash out and spout my frustration. She was not nice when I gave her the presents. Saturday night she said she was working a private party. I took the boys to the park and came home. Once the boys were sleep I called oveer a sitter and went to the party to see if she needed a ride home since her car is off the road. I got to the party ant 12:00 and the host said she left already. I went to the bar she frequents and who do I run into but Ms. Bad influence. I asked her if I could talk to her, and we went outside and I said listen I don't have anything against you I'm just trying to save my marriage. She was gracious and said I'm not trying to hurt you but I think you marriage is over. We talked for about 15 minutes and then I went home. The wife came home at 3:30 am I asked where has she been and she lied and said she has been working the whole time. I asked her where were her shoes she says she was hot so she took them off and her bra too because the heat was awful. I then told her that I came by and she got off at 11:00. She denied it at first then got angry and said she does not owe me any explaintions or the truth or anything. I just said that's fine, and went to bed. Went to church and came home she was still in the bed at 3:30 in the afternoon the house that I cleaned spotless the night before destroyed and the keeps uncared for. I got the kids bathed and dressed and cleaned the house again and she woke up wanting to talk. I sat I listened and she said. She doesn't want to live together anymore and she doesn't want to move so she wants me to leave. I told her that I was not leaving my house or my kids and that the kids will never grow up to be able to say that their father left them. So she said that she was getting a legal separation tomm. and that she was taking the boys to live about 45 minutes away. I said I don't want that but I can't stop it either. She went into how am being selfish and all I care about is what I want and that I'm to blame for her taking the kids out of there home and away from her friends because I'm selfish. She also said that she has moved enough because of my lack of finacial support in the past. I told her that for 6 months now I have been guilt ridden by my past and have allowed her to beat me over the head with my short comings in the past long enough. I told her that I haven't been the best husband but I have always been a incredible dad. Those love me and have had great lives. They are happy and healthy and scared to death that we are going to divorce. My four yr. old told me two weeks ago while my wife and I were in the kitchen that we need to get married. He went through a phase at 3 where he would try to kiss my wife like he used to see me kissing her. She expained that you can't kiss anybody like that until you get married. So he equates kissing and affection with marriage. It dawneed on me that when he said we should get married that was his way of saying the we don't act married. He doesn't see ant affection or love between us. My nine year old is already hypersensitive to my leaving. He feels the handwriting on the wall. My wife told him to throw a piece of paper out and he immediately turned to her and said WHY IS DADDY MOVING OUT?? He missed heard her. SO basically I said listen here is what I will do. I will sleep on the couch, and I will not bother you about our marriage and I will not ask you to meet any of my sexual needs. But I am not leavign my house. She agreed but wanted to know for how long this was going to be. I told her that I don't make decisions without asking God what he wants me to do. I told her that I am doing what I think God wants me to do. She said that she thinks that God has someone else that is more religious in the wings waiting for me because she is so through with our marriage. Bottom line: I am back to square one. Things are not getting better. She is more resentful and more disrespectful then I have ever seen her. I'm confused because I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or postphoning the inevitible. I'm growing as a person but the marriage is sinking fast. It's like I'm as loving and accomidating as possible and she just craps on me daily. I've taken it for a long time now but it's wearing thin. I'm noow at a place where I don't rally want to live like this anymore. Should I move out? I think she might be seeing someone but I really don't care anymore. I didn't even ask. Her mind is made up and I'm just holding on for a miracle and it doesn't seem like it's coming.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I'm noow at a place where I don't rally want to live like this anymore. Should I move out? I think she might be seeing someone but I really don't care anymore. I didn't even ask. Her mind is made up and I'm just holding on for a miracle and it doesn't seem like it's coming. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Impulsive, you MUST consult a lawyer before moving out. Your W sounds like an incipient alcoholic, and does not sound like a caring, loving mother right now. PROTECT YOUR KIDS AT ALL COSTS!You have to put your kids first here and determine what it will take to receive sole custody. That may mean putting in a restraining order preventing her from leaving the house with the kids - if you do think she is not currently competent to raise the kids right now.I have a 4 year old too...so hard to see them affected by problems in their parents marriage!I also urge you to take a visit to Al Anon (whether your marriage makes it or not!). Al Anon is very helpful to those who have to deal with anyone with a drinking problem. Not sure if your W has a problem or not or is only occasionally bingeing, but I wanted to let you know it's a great resource for help.I'm saying a prayer for you, your W, and the kids...

Her mother and sister weren't allowed to see this side of her, were they? They don't know, do they? If she has to hide her behavior from them, that's alcoholism. If there's a pressure that builds while she's dry, that's alcoholism. What's needed now is an intervention. Chevy Chase described it as a situation where your doctor, friends and family show up and tell you how badly your life is screwed up and cajole you into going into a facility where for some period of time other screw ups plus the staff tell you the same thing so that you stop using whatever you're using. You need strength now, because you're going to have to begin assembling those close to her, and you're going to need to figure out what facility she needs to be in. And it's going to be hard on you and the kids. And there's no two ways about it. It may work. It may not. But leaving it alone will simply result in her leaving. She will be endangering your children. She'll either wreck the car while they're in it, or simply never come home one night for one reason or another. To save yourself, you've got to try to save her.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: The wife came home at 3:30 am I asked where has she been and she lied and said she has been working the whole time. I asked her where were her shoes she says she was hot so she took them off and her bra too because the heat was awful. I then told her that I came by and she got off at 11:00. She denied it at first then got angry and said she does not owe me any explaintions or the truth or anything.Well, after all these months of Plan A struggling, it is now apparent to me that you are dealing with an affair. Maybe I'm wrong....maybe she is just out drinking late with pals, avoiding the uncomfortable home life, but I don't think so. Her drinking pal was alone at the bar.This situation is analagous to a few others here, WOC and AGG come to mind, where it was unfortunate that the exposure of the affair was delayed so long, and the betrayed spouse's Plan A energy was sort of shot off into the air. And in the meantime their love died.I think that in your situation, I would confront the affair head on, find out the truth, expose it to the air, to her family if need be. Harley says that affairs only thrive on secrecy, and die in the light of exposure. You need that process to start. I don't think it would be hard to get the truth out of her, or to find some evidence in email, cell phone records, or something. As I recall, she made an affair confession and then retracted it at one point, right? A musician at the restaurant where she works? That's definitely Clue Numero Uno.I think that until the affair is over, you also have to figure out away to get into a Plan B living situation, because contact between you and the fogged wife is killing your love. I think the best scenario at this point is probably a separation, waiting out her fog, and hoping that she wakes up and turns back to you in 6 months or a year.It sounds to me like you are the best caregiver to the kids, and you can make that argument, both to her and to the courts, in order to stay in the house and with the kids. But, failing that, and only if your lawyer covers the bases, you probably need to move out of you must in order to effect a Plan B. Let her try running the household on her own.Anyway...time for some good legal advice, and time to go post on the JFO board and get some spot on advice. Sorry for what you are going through....

Mike has a good alternate explanation. So it's one, or the other, or both. It may be the booze drives the affair, or the affair drives the booze ... Intervention will likely clear that up.

I agree. I definately think there is an affair going on here too. It is also crutial that you start gathering evidence about not only the affair, but also the drinking. If you have to fight for custody in the future you want all the paper evidence on your side when you try to save your kids from the drinking. Going to Al-Anon by yourself wouldn't be a bad idea either.

The pages of this thread serve as a rough diary of events and timelines ... Admissible in court? Certainly not the whole thing ... but a redacted version would probably be allowed ... if for no other purpose than to refresh the memories of witnesses.

I've been following your struggle for a few months now, just lurking until now. It has inspired me and enlightened me in many ways to read it, and I can identify with some of what you have been through. Reading it has helped me make my own marriage better.I just thought it might help you to know that there is a friendly soul and a listening ear out there. I wish you all the best.Andrew

Whatever else is going on, impulsive, your wife is very clearly trying to get you to leave. The signs are classic. She wants you to be responsible for breaking your family apart so that she can absolve herself of that responsibility. And in the meantime her self-esteem, never all that great to begin with, is going through the floor. Your wife is headed for a crisis, impulsive. It doesn't look to me as if you have to worry about your current state of suspension going on indefinitely. Even if you stay your own course, something's going to give. My advice: for the sake of your own self-esteem, don't let that "something" be you.You know, for a long time here I have been cautioned against assuming there is an affair. Occam's Razor did not demand such an explanation. However, while I would still caution against assuming anything, I'm afraid that I must now swing to the other side of the fence and say that I strongly suspect an affair.If your wife does not owe you any explanations, then why would she lie about where she was? Maybe, just maybe, she thought you would hassle her about her drinking if she admitted to staying out after work, and she just didn't want to deal with that. But once you revealed that you knew she was lying, what further reason would she have for denial? It looks bad.You questioned her about her shoes, and she volunteered an explanation for losing her bra too. Hmm. While the explanation is (barely) credible, it is still suspicious.She wasn't with her known friend, so where was she?She's threatening to move "about 45 minutes away". Why there? What's so special about the place she has picked out? Perhaps she has a particular roommate in mind, or someone she wants to live close to?Yeah, I think it's time you find out exactly what's going on when your wife sneaks off. And I think it's time you consult a lawyer. Don't give your wife the chance to snatch your kids away from you. Find out what your options are with regard to a restraining order.I don't believe that Plan A is incompatible with Tough Love. First you draw the lines. In this case, you are not going to abandon your home voluntarily, and you are not going to give up your kids without a fight. You hold firm to those lines without apologies. Outside the lines, you continue to behave with gentleness and compassion and - as far as it is possible - with respect.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: This situation is analagous to a few others here, WOC and AGG come to mind, where it was unfortunate that the exposure of the affair was delayed so long, and the betrayed spouse's Plan A energy was sort of shot off into the air. And in the meantime their love died.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><sigh>... well, even in the AGG and WOC cases, it didn't take as long as it took impulsive to uncover the affair... I think at this late stage the whole point is moot... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. There is only so much time that these situations can continue before the marriage is DOA, and I think if you look back at this entire thread, that time has elapsed long ago...AGG [This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited August 13, 2001).]

AGG, who's to say whether this is an early stage or a late stage? And who signs the death certificate?Hope is cruel, but not so cruel as the lack of it.

sissyphus, et al: I've just come in on this thread.While I agree to a point with the Harleys on the unmet needs and plan A'ing...there comes a time and point in EVERY relationship where plan A becomes "enabling". Impulsive may have suffered some mood swings and rightfully so...each move was countered by his wife. Now, we know why...he should have planned A for a while but when plan A had zero effect on her...then it was time for reality 101 and a plan B...but, ask her to leave...not him. She needed to see what life out there in the big ole world apart from him and the children would be like...yeah, maybe she could have had some "fun" but she also would have seen that there were many, many things that ONLY imp could meet and that she probably truly "NEEDED" him....but, sadly...he just plan A'd himself right into enabling her to make the worst of the choices because there were NO consequences for her continued behavior when he was and had changed. Over on the recovery board Plan A and Plan B are described like this: Plan A shows the spouse the changes that were needed to be made and are being made and will continue to be made by the spouse while plan B shows the other spouse the changes they need to also make inorder for there to be any hope for a marriage. Even when a spouse says that they want "out"...when they can have their cake and eat it too...then, there is no reason to do anything but stick around and make the other live in hell..and, that IS NOT GOOD FOR THE CHILDREN...and, usually when a spouse is hell bent on being distant, starting little skirmishes, and being totally defensive about EVERY LITTLE THING...then an affair is usually what is really going on with that person and their ****ty behavior. Imp...kick her [censored] out NOW!!! I am the BS...my husband had a couple of affairs on me...when I first discovered..I plan A'd him...but, when he was playing me and milking me for all that good attention and continuing to lie to me and manipulate me...then, I threw him out and I later separated for official teacher training for three weeks...but, the message was clear...see what life will be like without me and make up your mind..either commit to rebuilding this marriage..even if right now it is only for the sake of our daughter being the only thing that binds us together due to all the hurt and pain and anger...or get out and let us go on with our lives. We committed...HE had to go to therapy and fix his problem ( conflict avoidance and chronic lying and deception ) and we have had a hell of a struggle for three years...but, now..we have a very good, strong, and over all happy marriage filled with love...it did return and we did grow and learn, but...it took tough love and my stopping the enabling and the allowing him to have his cake and eat it too to get him to the point of REALLY trying to make the marriage work. As you said in one of your earlier post..she needs to **** or get off the pot.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cheatedonin98: While I agree to a point with the Harleys on the unmet needs and plan A'ing...there comes a time and point in EVERY relationship where plan A becomes "enabling".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well.....in an affair situation, Plan A is meant to be used in concert with Plan B if the affair doesn't end. If there is no affair, usually it is just Plan B away. That is why the existence of the affair is such a crucial data point.

The wife wanted to talk once again I listened and tried very hard not to come across negatively in any way. She basically said that she wants me to move out. She doesn't want the kids to have to leave there house. I assured her I would not leave, my house or my children. She says fine, you stay here but I'm going forward with my life. What I noticed about the wife is she can say some of the meanest things in the world. She doesn't see anything wrong with that. If after I endure her meanness over and over and over and over and over I respond out of pain and frustration with the least bit of rudeness it becomes larger then life. Her meaness gets minimized to nothing. In fact she is mean with inpunity.**News Flash**I just found out that my wife applied for and recieved a credit card in my four year olds name!!! This has absolutlety blown me away. I haven't confronted her because I am way to angry right now.I don't know what to do right now. I am feeling responsible for the state of my marriage right now. I feel that if my plan a was not so crappy then things would have turned around. I pressured her for sex and LB's myself out of a marriage. I am loving her despite her refusal to accept my love. I am not talking relationship or pressuring her for sex. I won't ask her to leave but I won't stop her from leaving either. I am maintaining faith that God will honor our marriage and soften her heart and allow me in. I'm praying that he convicts her heart and if she is in an affair he causes her to realize that our childrens future and our marriage is far more important then any roll in the hay with some person that lacks the morality to respect the sanctity of marriage. The part that surprises me is that I am not even upset. I'm just holding on to the promise of God that he will give me the desires of my heart if I remain faithful to his Will, Way, and Word. I agree that my children are my #1 priority but to try to get custody is a fight that will get very ugly and I think that may be even more devestating to the kids that will suffer enough. So I'm willing to sacrifice my feelings and need for them to spare them more pain. Also my 9 year old was 2 months old when my wife and I first met. I am the only father he has ever known. I never legally adopted him beacuse there was a issue that the lawyers said that he would be given a legal advisor to act on his behalf during a adoption proceedding. The lawyers said that he would have to be told by his lawyer that I am not his biological father and explain the details to him. My wife and I were horrified because he was old enought to be devestated. So we dicided to not get it done legally and just send him through school and life with my last name. This whole situation would mean that I would not have any legal rights to him in a custody battle. I could fight for my 4 yr. old but that would mean they would get separated. More devestation because th=ey are two peas in a pod. The wife says she is going to stop hanging out and be a better mother, and person. I confronted her about wheteher she was using cocaine again because she was addictted years ago but has been clean for 7 years now. I guess the reason for my faith and the positive I take from this very sad situation is that I have lost a total of 40 pounds. I look and feel better then I have looked in 10 years. I bought me some clothes and I'm closer to God then I have ever been and I'm closer to my children then i ever been. I need prayer. I'm not trying to me a martry but I do want to be able to say that I gave my marriage everything i had left in the tank. Considering that I caused this behavior in her with my stupidity before I changed and became born again. She endured for years I feel compelled to try to love her even though she doesn't want my love. Because that is what God would do! He loves us even though we don't always recognize and accept his love. Right?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: **News Flash**I just found out that my wife applied for and recieved a credit card in my four year olds name!!! This has absolutlety blown me away. I haven't confronted her because I am way to angry right now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who wears the pants in this family? You need to call that issuer right now and get that card canceled. If they won't do it over the phone, get the address where you can write ... say the issuance was an accident (don't open her up to fraud charges--although some would say to go all the way and let that happen too) ... this is irresponsible behavior on her part, and you have every right to lovebust however necessary to insulate your children from the consequences of her foolish machinations. IMHO, the sooner there's an intervention, the better.

I confiscated the card she thinks she lost it. I neveer told her that I had it I'm just making sure she doesn't do this type of behavior again. Ms. Bad Influence is my new best friend now. Everytime she sees me she hugs me and asks me questions. Very friendly now. I wonder why?

If Ms. Bad Influence is that screwed up, perhaps she's been trying to drive a wedge between you and your wife so that she could take a crack at you. Or she may be looking for hound-type behavior she can report back to your wife. In either case, steer clear of her. You might also contact the big three credit agencies and ask what they can do to put "alerts" on your kids' files so that no cards are issued in their names. It can be done. One calls them "Hawk-alerts" ... can't remember what the others call them. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 14, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive: I confiscated the card she thinks she lost it. I neveer told her that I had it I'm just making sure she doesn't do this type of behavior again.You certainly don't need a physical card to run up bills. Ask my Amazon.com account. Cancel the card ASAP, and put the evidence away in a file. Your lawyer may find it of interest in the future. Given that background you shared about your kids, do you find it curious that she choose to put the card in the name of the child for whom you are legally responsible, rather than the one she would be? FYI -- a friend of mine was in a similar position with a second marriage and subsequent divorce, and even though he never adopted the child, he was found to be legally liable for child support.Ms. Bad Influence is my new best friend now. Everytime she sees me she hugs me and asks me questions. Very friendly now. I wonder why? Scouting for info. Don't trust her.Impy, you need to confront the truth about an affair. The present limbo situation is killing your marriage and killing your love. If you want her back, fight for it, put some honesty in the relationship, expose the truth to the air.

Ms. Bad Influence has been checked into to rehab by my wife. My wife have been out every night this week and I have had the kids. Took the kids to Toronto for the weekend, and when we get home from a long weekend away she meets us in the driveway runs past me and grabs the kids ooohhhh I miss you guys!!!! Didn't even say hi. I guess there is not anybdoy to blame but myself. Wife went to a wedding and reception yesterday. I found a note scibbled on a napkin. My Sweet Sweet My wife's name!!! You totally drive me wild! I'm exploding inside when I look in your eyes. I truly do love you.I just took the note and I'd be lying if I didn't say I am so hurt inside I can't breath. The wife is more distant then ever. I hate my life life right now. I am more lonely then I've ever been in my life. I feel trapped. I can't leave my kids. I don't want to fight over them. I can't live in this situation much longer, and it seems as though she is trying to force me out. She has no problem being involved with someone else. I mean people don't usually tell other people they love them unless it's mutual. I'm sure she is telling someone she loves them too. I'm sure she is exploding inside for someone. It certainly is not me. I can't become involved with anyone else because of my vows to God and my lack of interest in committing adultry. I know if I confront her with the napkin she will say it was a joke from her girlfriend, or her gay male friend, aand I'll just look like the pathetic little jealous husband sleeping on the couch and sneaking through her things looking for things in her purse to rip my own heart out.

Imp, I'm so sorry. I feel your pain.I think you should post over on Just Found Out and GQ, where a lot of people are going through the suspicion or reality of infidelity. I also think you should plan on getting to the truth....Halrey says that affairs thrive until they reach the light of day. Maybe the napkin isn't enough. But she did try to confess at one point, so maybe now a discussion will get it out in the open. Hopefully an affair in the open dies a quicker death, under the burden of shame and the reality of a relationship rather than a clandestine and exciting fling.If I were you, I would gird my loins, sit down with her calmly, talk about the night out at the catering job when she returned without the bra, talk about the note on the napkin, talk about her previous confession, and just ask for the truth. Correction....first I would get on some anti-deps with my doctor.Anyway, you may not get the truth out of her that sit down, but I suspect it will come about once she sees you "know".Read up on Halrey's article about how an affair should die. That's the step you are at now.I'd like to be positive here...hey, at least the dragon is out of the cave and you know what you are fighting.Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I found a note scibbled on a napkin. My Sweet Sweet My wife's name!!! You totally drive me wild! I'm exploding inside when I look in your eyes. I truly do love you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Once you get the other, irrefutable evidence, you might provide your wife with this rough translation:"My momentary piece of a** until something better comes along!!! Your abandonment of any sense of decency sparks a like reaction in me, to the extent I ever had any decency--I just want to rut with you! When I look in your eyes, I can only think of my own gratification and I totally miss the pain and misery our actions are storing up for you, me, your children, and your husband. I truly enjoy using you and destroying our lives and the lives of your children and husband!"I'm disgusted by what you found. It's very sad, and I hope you and your wife can find your way through it. With Ms. Bad Influence in rehab, perhaps your wife will realize that it's time for her to check in as well. The booze may not be all of it, but it sure is a big part of it.

Who's in the band that played that reception?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: Who's in the band that played that reception?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well struck.

. Imp, this really sucks... The reality of your situation was obvious for months, but the natural insticts are always to find explanations to rationalize away the "signs"... My d-day was exactly a year ago this week, so when I read your post, I remembered the gut-wrenching feeling of seeing someone else "love" your spouse. Yes, you are right, it is never one-sided, so you can be pretty sure that she has the feelings for whoever this retard is...Just do yourself a favor and don't try to see HER writings to HIM, that WILL make you sick to your stomach... I had to HEAR their conversations to prove to myself that I was not insane, and I was sick for days afterwards...As far as confrontation, you still have no PROOF, so you are somewhat handicapped... <shrug>. I suppose you can ask her about the note, but you'll be sure to get some lame explanation, which won't accomplish anything. If you want to be convincing, you need to at least know who the OM is, or know of a specific time/date/event when they were or will be together.Aside from that, you need to refresh your thinking on what you will do once you know that your W is having an affair; continue to Plan A, go to Plan B, go to Plan D, etc... Have you thought about it?I'm truly sorry for this, Imp...AGG

I really don't have a game plan. I pray for her daily and I'm the best father in the world. I'm finally to a point where I don't care about my needs anymore. I speak pleasantly and I'm a provider despite it all she is still my wife. I've turned this entire situation over to God. He will either turn her around or send her from me in the mean time I'm becoming a incredibly strong person and a well rounded person mentally, physically and spiritually. I have no desire to confront her or ask her about it. I really don't care who this person is. I was lost before and it's a sad place to be so I really feel sorry for her because the long term ramifications of your actions can have a devestating impact on you. I'm proof. Please pray for my strength and for my wives salvation. I've lost a total of 45 pounds down from 285. God I feel good despite the train wreck of a marriage that I have right now. Remember people hard times do not last always.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I have no desire to confront her or ask her about it. I really don't care who this person is. I was lost before and it's a sad place to be so I really feel sorry for her because the long term ramifications of your actions can have a devestating impact on you. I'm proof. Please pray for my strength and for my wives salvation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Impy, God helps those that help themselves. Corinthians 5:17....or wait, now I'm confused, maybe it was an episode of The Flying Nun.Anyway, I do not think the path to saving your marriage right now includes paralysis on your part. Reread how Harley says an affair should end: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html</A> I know money is tight, but in your spot I would find the 100 clams and talk to Steve Harley. You NEED a game plan now, more than you ever have in your life. Your W is in a fog, at least you know that now. It sounds perverse, but in a way that is good news. The percentage of affairs that turn long term is very small....too much guilt. Once they are exposed to the open air, they tend to whither. I think it is time for you to do that. Put your relationship on an honest footing, that is the beginning.Talk to Steve. It will be the best 100 bucks you ever spent. You can't afford paralysis, you can't afford amateur advice.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: Talk to Steve. It will be the best 100 bucks you ever spent. You can't afford paralysis, you can't afford amateur advice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Did I make my point? No?Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto! Ditto!

OK I will call Harley! I really don't have the emotional energy to fight anymore. I really do feel paralysized. I want this to be over soon rather then later. Please pray for my strength.

Godspeed. May this be another big step on the road back. BTW, with the alcohol involvement, Steve will likely say that nothing can be done on the marriage until the alcohol is under control. Since alcoholic friends tend to part company from non-alcoholic friends, Ms. Bad Influence's entry into rehab is a powerful indicator of your wife' potential problem. Your wife hasn't broken with her, has she?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus: [BBTW, with the alcohol involvement, Steve will likely say that nothing can be done on the marriage until the alcohol is under control. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not sure he would say that at all, and I'd hate to make Impy hesitate in picking up the phone. I think Steve will immediately review Plan A and offer counsel as to what Impy should do regarding the affair.

He was at one time a chemical dependency counselor, so undoubtedly he will be able to look at the situation and see what's going on.So hard for us to tell by posts what really goes on in a relationship. I never suspected the alcohol involvement till the last month or two (and I usually think I know the signs!). It's a funny thing but men are much less likely to think their W's are alcoholics than the reverse, but when they do, they are much more likely to divorce than women.Dcope, if you think the alcohol is having an affect on your life - go visit al-anon for support! I'm sure most people realize that alcoholics are much more likely to have A's than other folks. Alcohol causes a lot of poor judgement.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by married2alcoholic: He was at one time a chemical dependency counselor, so undoubtedly he will be able to look at the situation and see what's going on.I think you are confusing the Harleys on that, father and son, but the point is correct, Steve certainly will recognize and be helpful [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

My marriage is getting weirder by the day. Things have been very very good the last couple of days. It's been a very cordial even affectionate type of mood. She asked me to get her a bootle of wine yesterday. I did. We worked together in the yard. We watched t.v. together in the bed and fell asleep together in the same bed. My 4 year old got up in the middle of the night, so I went to the couch around 3 in the morning but the night was actually pleasant. Ms. Bad Influence called from rehab, and I talked to her and told her I was praying for her and she invited me and the wife to visiting day this sunday. Don't know if I should go. Today was a continuation of yesterday. She came in from working in the yard and seen me just laying in the bed watching t.v. There just happened to be a pair of her panties on the bad and she jokingly asked me if I was sniffing her panties. Next thing I know she asked for a massage. I rubbed her down for about a hour. I resisted the urge to push for SF so I took a cold shower after wards. She seemed very thankful, and very nice. It is like the first couple of weeks of plan A all over again. I m not jumping the gun or over stepping my bounds this time. Is it a surprise that things are getting better with you know who in Rehab? Is it a god time for plan A? Maybe there is not a affair, or am I in denial?

Impy, it is nice that she strung together two civil days, but I strongly urge you to stay on track to get with Steve Harley.

Mike, If Jesus Christ himself couldn't save my marriage what can harley do. IT'S OVER!!! aLL THE PRAYING AND FASTING AND TALKING AND CRYING IN THE WORLD CAN NOT CHANGE MY WIFE'S MIND. She has her mind made up so it's a done deal. She came home from work and I was in the bed. She asked me to rub her legs because they were hurting. I rubbed her legs for almost a hour and I said can I just hold you close no sex, just let me hold and press up against you. She immediately said no, and she'll sleep on the couch and she is sorry for accepting the leg rubs both times today. I told he not to feel that way that I did it not to get anything in return but to make her feel better. She said it felt better but she feels guilty because I have needs that she has no interest in meeting. I said that's ok I'll get over it just don't feel obligated or guilty. She went to sleep on the couch, I volunteered to leave and did. I felt so alone on the couch, I wanted to die! I went into her room and broke down. It was like a emotional dam broke and couldn't help myself. Through prayer and fasting and faith I thought I was on the right track, but I'm in a can't win situation!!! I feel suicidal. I just don't have the guts to do it! I feel like I've wasted 6 and a half months of my life for nothing. I'm angry at God. Why would he turn me around show me how screwed up I was and bring me through all this to still have me lose my wife and kids. It's like some type of cruel joke! I hate myself right now! I just want to die. She got up and said see this is why we can't live together. Either you leave or I leave. She talked about my changes. One day I'm calm and loving the next I'm distant. She said I didn't talk to her all weekend. I told her about the napkin letter, and she started laughing hysterically. Her Gay busboy at work wrote it she says. He wrote the same one to all the waitressess and put them in their purses. Whatever the bottom line is Harley can't help! God won't help and I'm emotionally spent. I can't think or cry or fight one more day. All she wants is to be friends. All I want to do is die!! I hate life. All this to still lose my wife and kids. IF I can get up the nerve, I'd die tonight!

Let's get this in perspective. You know your wife has a substance abuse problem, and apparently she is cheating and has become a very accomplished liar who can very quickly sell you something you can step in for free at any stockyard. You have children who are going to grow up with only that to model themselves on if you do what you said you want to do. Do you want to find yourself in Hell, and to compound your torment, realize that the W and Ks are there too? You are in a battle. There will be losses, and confusion and terror and dust and despondency and gallantry and nobility and sacrifice and ultimately, we hope, triumph. You must not be the one who breaks ranks and runs to the rear, wild-eyed and jabbering. You must be the one bearing the standard, the one the enemy most wants to lock in their gunsights, the one whose indomitable resolve ultimately breaks the enemy's will. How can a lying, cheating drunk defeat a sober, focused godly man? Can you tell me how that could happen? It can't happen unless you panic and drop your sword and shield and strip off your armor and run screaming from the field of honor. Do yourself a favor and go rent Rocky. Call the Harleys too. And think about assembling a team for an intervention. And I wouldn't go to visiting day. Ms. Bad Influence and your wife need to part company, or whatever good that rehab dos for MBI will be destroyed by her reassociation with your wife. [This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 24, 2001).]

Impy, Please get yourself to an al-anon meeting!And if you're really feeling suicidal, call that suicide hotline! They can help (I've used them before!)You have kids, impy, you cannot just checkout when things are rough.Al-anon can help you battle these roller coaster emotions - whether your marriage works or not - your children's mom will still have a drinking problem, and you (and your kids) will still be dealing with it.

Well I just had a word with the wife. Told her how i felt once and for all. I apologized for not handling my emotions as smothly as I would like but tried to make her understand that life has not been a bowl of cherries lately. I told her that despite my shortcomings that at the worse of my times I never quit on her. I never quit on my family. I may have been depressed and unable to focus on the marriage and my business and her needs and my needs but I never bailed on her because the going got rough. Marriage is not like a pair of shoes I told her. I'll throw those away because the don't feel good or look good or maybe they are out of style. Marriage is something that you work on and you fight for. When you have a spouse that has sacrificed and struggled and made tremendous changes to better himself in order to better the marriage is not the time to quit. It's like a spouse going to rehab while in recovery. You don't bail on them while there trying there best to recapute their life and dignity. They took the courageous step of self analysis and made gut wrenching changed to better themselves while the other spouse quits on them. I told her I would never ask her to come back to a marriage that was the status quo. The last thing I said was it must be nice knowing that your spouse does love you through thick and thin. NO matter what they will always be there fighting for you and the marriage and the children. If you were in a terrible car accident and couldn't wipe your butt tommorrow, i would be there toilet paper in hand because that is what love does. Not better deal you by saying well you said you don't want to be married no more. I know she would be there for a week or so out of guilt but she would rationalize it by saying I told him I didn't want to be married before the accident. That is not love. I'm bitter. Bitter is better then feeling sorry for myself at this point. You can't make a person love you. You know I have lost over 45 pounds and she haven't said as much as god job or you look great. Luckily I did it for me and not her.

Out of the blue SF today and I was totally surprised. I need someone that can see a pattern in this saga to let me know what is going on!!

Oh, I see a pattern alright: she's yanking a chain and you are at the end of it. If it were me, I would be laying down a few ground rules and taking the upper hand and perhaps delivering a few ultimatums. Aren't you getting a little tired of it?Em

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Out of the blue SF today and I was totally surprised. I need someone that can see a pattern in this saga to let me know what is going on!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi, I'm Mike's labrador retriever puppy, and, by god, I've recognized a pattern [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Impy, you suffer from a typical male complex which is that if there is sex everything must be all right, and if there isn't you are on the window ledge. So your only measuring stick on this relationship is sex -- you get it, you are happy, you ghet rejected, you are miserable.Now, affair ir not, perhaps once in awhile your wife just physically wants sex, and, as a long time sexual companion, you are there to satisfy that physical urge. These episodes may be irrelvant data to the state of your marriage.Overlay on top of that her less than dead feelings for you and the constant guilt and pressure (not incesasant, perhaps, but relatively constant) she feels from you about your sexual needs. Not always spoken, perhaps, but it is always there. So once in awhile she breaks down and has sex in order to keep the peace....she isn't ready to sever totally.You have to throw out sex as a relationship measuring tool, and get to work on her heart. You know Steve's number. The rest of this is red herrings and false trails, my friend.

Remember that when you do get SF, rather than demanding more, you need to just make sure that she has no reason whatsoever to regret her decision. Keep her as happy as you can. Even if that means going along with some things you don't really like.

Why in the world is Impulsive supposed to continue walking on eggshells. Does he love his wife? Of course he does. Does he want to save his marriage? Well obviously with 42 pages of misery written down here. I have followed this post since the very beginning, until now I have never found the urge to post a reply because I feel that Imp. has really great supporters alread, but now I have to disagree. First off how long is this woman going to punish him for the things he didn't do in the past? The saga has been non stop for almost 7 mo. several months too long in my opinion. She is playing him like a musical instrument, Is there and affair? Yes. Impulsive in this one love is most definately BLIND. This is a support group here so support him, this has not been good for him or the children, anyone that has children knows that they are aware of what's going on in their own household. He needs to get out of this situation, and he needs to stop giving her her cake and eating it too. She has been manipulative the whole way, she has it soooo good, she can treat you like Sh*t, she can crush all your hopes and your dreams but big daddy is there to kiss her butt. PLEASE!! IMPULSIVE YOU NEED TO SAVE YOURSELF, AND SAVE YOUR CHILDREN. MAKE HER MAKE A CHOICE NOW, AND STICK TO IT. IT ALREADY HURTS, SO IF SHE DOESN'T MAKE THE CHOICE YOU WANT SO BADLY TO HEAR ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO BE SUPRISED? Get back your self respect, and trust God more than you have been, he doesn't judge those who get out of unGodly marriages. YOU HAVE DONE ALL THAT YOU CAN DO. Take that for what it is and find your family some PEACE.

I don't think anybody is advocating doormathood, but there are things Impy himself does that create problems. Avoid those, and he may have more leverage where it really counts. With Ms. Bad Influence off in rehab, his influence is all the greater, provided he doesn't trigger withdrawal from the wife. There was apparently a lot of damage done over the years. The wife isn't purposefully dragging him through the things he's going through. She's broken, and he is undertaking the difficult task of getting her to realize it and start making the kinds of efforts he made to fix himself. If he walks out on his ungodly marriage, there is a heavy cost for everyone involved.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kelli_35: Does he want to save his marriage? MAKE HER MAKE A CHOICE NOW, AND STICK TO IT.Kelli, I admire your conviction and energy [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I would opine that the above two statements may well conflict right now.My marriage did not include an affair, but my W was emotionally gone, and it took a long time to even get her to where she was considering the relationship in terms of long term. I counseled with Steve Harley, and after many months of Plan A , I was ready for ultimatums and Plan B. He said "That's what she expects, and she is ready for the marriage to die." There is a place for laying down the gauntlet, I suppose, but it is only after a long and successful Plan A. Impy's Plan A has been heroic in many senses, but sort of up and down, by his own admission. My was too, but after some more months, Steve Harley said to me "You have her confused" which he thought was an excellent piece of progress. Now, 18 months into it or so, I think my W values our marriage again. But I had to overcome a lot of selfish behvior in my past, as does Impy, and it takes time.Now....with Impy, there is the specter of an affair, or perhaps the reality of an affair, and that changes the playing field. For one thing, it probably delays the point where his W will bring her heart back to the relationship. We don't know whether she is in an active affair, or getting over one. Either way, she appears to be in the fog, and right now doesn't have a lot invested in the relationship.If Impy wants to recover this marriage, he has a very slim and meandering path to follow. He will need a lot of patience. It would be nice if a simple ultimatum would snap his W out of it, but I really don't think so. I think he needs to get with Steve Harley and get a warroom going, because it is Defcon 2 here.Kelli, I see this is your first post. Welcome! What is your story? (start a new thread, I beg you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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I am not advocating divorce here my any means. I have been married for 10 yrs, and been seperated 2 times( 4 mo, then 3 mo). I as well as most of you know what it feels like to live in the same household as a withdrawn spouse. I had it both ways, If I could have chosen it would have most definately been a seperate house seperation. Living with her is too much for impulsive, he gets mixed signals, and can't help but want to play house. It's hard for her to gain respect for him because he has been on his knees begging her to love him. Him making the improvements he's made physically and otherwise is wonderful, but he has to change for him without her in mind. She needs to see him as strong, that is what brought my withdrawn spouse back to me, and believe me he was very withdrawn. After I cried, begged, pleaded literally on my knees, he withdrew further. I then began living for me, our life was an arrangement, we NEVER slept in the same bed, he began to see me and fell in love with a new woman. To her Impulsive is doing all of this to get her back, she resents it. Impulsive you shouldn't withdraw, withdrawing is not good for anybody. Just start living for you, and stick to it. You keep regressing, and all your doing is punishing yourself. One post says that your withdrawn the next day your seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Smile more, get involved somehow in your community, start reading a good book, and get counseling for you to get through this time in your life. Sis, wants to blame MS. Bad Influence, but you'd be in the same equation you're in without her. No more backrubs, no more talks, no more sf, just stay friendly (for you and the children). Don't try to get back what you thought you had, things won't ever be the way they were between you before this happened, sometimes better, and others the best of counseling can't save.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kelli_35: It's hard for her to gain respect for him because he has been on his knees begging her to love him. Him making the improvements he's made physically and otherwise is wonderful, but he has to change for him without her in mind. She needs to see him as strong, that is what brought my withdrawn spouse back to me, and believe me he was very withdrawn. After I cried, begged, pleaded literally on my knees, he withdrew further.You make an interesting point, and I don't think it is one that is extrapolated enough in MB's writings, although it is clearly part of the counseling. I think many people, me and Impulsive included, execute a portion of Plan A without really getting the whole picture.-- Plan A needs to be done from an aspect of zero pressure for your own ENs. -- Plan A has to have an upbeat attitude without any depressed, pleading, clinging, guilt-inducing behavior. That is lovebusting.-- Oftentimes, I think, Plan A has to be done without discussion about the relationship, becasue that can be lovebusting to the withdrawn spouse and crushing to the spouse executing Plan A. Count how many relationship discussions Imp has had in these threads. -- A by-product of Plan A, I think, is a slow realization....err...a comparison of your own enlightened efforts and the lousy partner skills that your spouse may be exhibiting, or at least the effort they are putting out. I think that leads to the 'strength' you discuss, Kelli. Instead of looking at your world as exploding if this person wasn't in your life, a part of you now has higher expectations for marital behavior. I think there is a window where this new attitude can be attractive and pull the other mate back in. But that window can close.Anyway, I still think what Imp needs is to counsel with Steve.

We had a little situation here in the last couple of days. My wife recieved a email from my 15 yr. old daughter that was staying with us for a time this summer. My daughter basically told her that she is not the same person she used to be and she doesn't like the person she is now even a little bit and that she is rude and disrespectful. She also told her that she said some things about me that she either heard or over heard but that she didn't appreciate her saying anything negative about me to anyone where she could hear it. My daughter is not usually this blunt or to the point but she was obviously in pain when she wrote the email. I walked up on the wife while she was reading it and crying and she was very emotional. She said that she feels like the villian. Everyone looks at her as the bad person now but when I was the bad person no one made me feel that way. Now that I have changed I still get the free ride. I told her that this is not about laying blame it's about the emotional and mental health of our children. She said i just don't trust you. I just can't bring myself to trust you. I understand that I haven't been very trustworthy in the past but I feel like living in the past in not productive for anyone. Anyway I was going to try and be loving and affectionate even though she won't reciprocate but I'm tired and I think I'm going to take kelli's advice until I talk to harley. It's time for me to live for me and stop looking for her approval.

[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 29, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: She said i just don't trust you. I just can't bring myself to trust you. I understand that I haven't been very trustworthy in the past but I feel like living in the past in not productive for anyone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Trust for you guys is a journey. Once you get into counseling with the Harley's that journey can begin.My advice to you is to avoid using your daughter's attack to twist a knife in your W's guts, and instead support her in what would be a trustbuilding exercise.[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 29, 2001).]

My daughter apologized so she is feeling a little better about that situation. My wife and I and the boys went to one of my son's hockey games last night. During the drive my wife noticed I was wearing my grubby jeans that I know she hates. So she says you have been dressing so nice lately why the change? I said I have been dressing nice for 6 months. I've lost almost 50 pounds and over the course of 6 months ou have'nt given me one compliment or one positive piece of feedback! However as son as I look grubby one time your quick to notice? I told her in a lighthearted tone your unbelieveable. She said well everytime in the past when i said lose weight and you did as soon as I mentioned and noticed progress you stopped almost immedietely and started gaining it all back. I didn't say a word. I'm very tired right now. I've been doing a lot of thinking about Kelli's last post. I've been at her beck and call for a long time now. I have'nt shown her any independence or courage under fire. I've shown her that I love my family very much and that I able and willing to endure a whole lot of pain and humiliation in order to save my marriage. Who have I been living for these last 6 months?

Now is not the time to backslide. Don't wear clothes to provoke. Don't say things to provoke. Be as wise as a serpent and as gentle as a lamb. Remember, you're going through this not just for her, but for you and for your kids. Focus on getting a handle on the alcohol, and a handle on the affair (which has to end, pronto). You have come so, so far. You and your daughter have given her so much to think about. I think you're closer than you could ever realize or dream. Just stay on the field, keep racking up points, and look to your faith for the strength to do so. Time is very much on your side.

The one thing I have been doing every morning before I leave for work is kissing her on the forehead and telling her to have a wonderful day. Today despite her negative tone lately I kissed her and said have a great day and she said you know you don't have to kiss me on the forehead anymore. I said why? She said it just feels weird. I didn't let her know it but something inside me just snapped. I said to her I have never seen anybody in my life so resistant to love. That's it. No more kisses, no more warm and fuzzy hugs trying to show her that I love her even though she doesn't want to except it. I will try my hardest not to be bitter or stop speaking to her all together, however once you've been kicked in the teeth so many times while trying to be sweet and loving it starts to get old fast.

Imp, I understand you are tired of the roller coaster - my GAWD, who wouldn't be? You are driving yourself absolutely nuts. I have followed your saga and read every post on all 43 pages - I have to admit I couldn't do it all at once. Had to stretch it over a two day period and I am exhausted from just reading it. Living it has to be unbearable. But, you are bringing so much of it on yourself.I know that in many cases we can't see how our own behavior is causing us the pain. We want what we want when we want it! Your problem is you can't get out of your own way to get to what you want. You are not in Plan A and I don't think you have been the entire time. You are still trying to force your wife to feel for you what you want her too. You are trying to play pool with a rope for a cue stick. Mike and others have advised you over and over and you will not take any advice offered, so I am confused as to why you continue to post. It seems you are waiting for someone to say - Good job, keep it up, seems to be working. Well, that is not honest. It doesn't seem to be working. For example, your wife has told you verbally and otherwise that she is not interested in you sexually right now. And you respond by continuing to try and rub her back, buy her sexy lingerie, kiss and hug her. All she can see is that you obviously don't believe what she says or don't respect her desires. You defend your behavior by saying, "she likes affection." Well, it doesn't appear she likes it from you right now. The SF encounters you love to post about seem to be mostly alcohol induced. I would stop drinking right now, if for no other reason than you do not need to be in an altered state of any kind.You have done some very good work on yourself. You have faced some harsh truths and put some good plans for your future into action. You want your wife to recognize and respond to the changes. That is understandable. She is not ready. By your own admission you have a tremendous amount of bad behavior to make up for. Who knows how much time it will take or if it will ever happen? You keep setting yourself up to "get kicked in the teeth" by your own expectations. Take a long hard look in the mirror and I think you will see that the enemy is you. ------------------ Reality It's not what you think

I'm sorry but this is directed to the last post. Impulsive is still posting for support, he needs someone to listen to what it is that he is going through. He has set himself up from time to time I admit it, but he has also shown great progress in a lot that he has done for himself. It's very hard to know what to do when you're this close to the situation, after reading your post I'm wondering if you've ever been abandoned by a spouse? It's extremely difficult and it's hard to trust your own emotions any longer.I think that your post was completely unsupportive and a little rude.Impulsive I didn't say that you shouldn't speak to your wife at all, but not in a overbearing emotional way. Friendliness is crucial, but having sf is not. She said she didn't trust you, so become her friend (only), make yourself happy, surround yourself with friends & family and work on yourself and the children. You cannot change your wifes mind, the more you try the more she will pull away. Over time the more she allows herself to trust her new established "friend", she may be able to fall in love with you again. Mike is so right, you do need to get into counseling, you need to focus on more positive things. At 15 your daughter cannot be allowed in the middle of this, her relationship with your wife must stay seperate from your marriage. Good Luck, and focus on just one day at a time.

Kelli, You and I are saying the exact same thing if you will go back and re-read my post. What I said was certainly harsh, but it wasn't rude. Telling someone the truth is never rude. I don't know if you have read each and every installment to dcope/impulsive's saga, but if you have you have to see the cycle he has created for himself. All I am saying is that if he is tired of the roller coaster - get off the ride. He holds the keys himself. Imp, My post was not intended to be rude. But, it was intended to try and shine a light on how your own decisions are partly responsible for your trauma. If you won't call the Harleys for an appointment or go see a counselor on your own, you are probably going to continue to set yourself up for these manic highs and lows. Six months of doing the same thing has not gotten you the desired result. Sometimes the very thing we do not want to hear is what we need to hear most. You may turn a deaf ear to this input, as you have most advice on this forum. That is of course your choice. I just offer an unbiased outsider's view of your 43 pages of posts. Wiffle

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: So she says you have been dressing so nice lately why the change? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think in a different time you might have been able to take this as a compliment.If she hates the grubby jeans, toss them. Attractive spouse is an EN. Ignoring something as simply executed as that is an LB, in my mind. [This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: Who have I been living for these last 6 months?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>C'mon, Impy, you are starting to sound like OLGJMJ. Plan A is for you. You have changed, you have improved. Your W has noticed. Once in awhile you just really show a whiff on a basic concept. Please get into counseling with the Harleys.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She said well everytime in the past when i said lose weight and you did as soon as I mentioned and noticed progress you stopped almost immedietely and started gaining it all back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Impulsive: this is verbatim what my H said to me. I too have changed physically for him and wanted him to notice and was hurt when he didn't. However, when he told me the above I realized that was his reality (based on my past behavior) and he was hoping by not commenting the good work might persist. I look great now, but I think it may take several years of looking good to change his perception of my true PA. 6 months is nothing compared to 10 years.... And when he does offer a negative type comment instead of getting defensive I state back what he said, like: Yes, my weight has been creeping back, I must take myself in hand again and not revert to my old ways. By staying positive instead of defensive our communication stays open and I find he is more accepting and loving toward me even if I haven't hit the gym everyday. Heck! at least he is noticing! better than being withdrawn.Please review the post this quote came in. Look at your behavior wrt MB principles. Were you LB'ng? Although I don't agree with everything Wiffle says, he is correct in pointing out that you have not been in perfect Plan A mode and it does appear from your posts that you avoid doing some hard things: call the Harleys - believe me if you truly wish to save your marriage you need their help - yes it does cost $125 per session - but worth it no matter what the final result. Are you avoiding counseling? are you using the cost as an excuse? Are you afraid they will force you to face the possibility of an affair? What is really holding you back? Advice on this board is no replacement for professional services. Even one session will help YOU. Although all situations are different, we both started posting here about the same time, I have been very interested in your stories and want you to succeed. I have used Steve H and I credit the positive state of my marriage on this counseling. Please, please do this for yourself!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by ihope: Advice on this board is no replacement for professional services. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Great post.I especially agree that I'd rather have a spouse that expresses concern with my appearance and makes suggestions than one who expresses...nothing...apathy.

Imp: I've been following your post now for months. I have to say that i am highly impressed by your strength! You have shown more restraint than anyone I know of! I think you are a great man, great father, a wonderful husband, and a good Christian. But, don't you think it's time for Plan B? I mean, you are surely getting very low on your love bank account, aren't you? Before it runs dry, and you still have a shread of love left for your WS, don't you think Plan B needs to be implimented? You have honestly done all that can be done to make your W happy. And, all she has done to you is to take advantage of you! Don't you think?You know, I'll bet money that when your W told you she didn't love you anymore (for the first time) you fell madly in love w/ her, didn't you? Sure you did! Why? Cause you thought you'd loose her, and you felt guilty for pushing her away. Am I close? Well, why not try the same thing on her? What (at this point) have you got to loose? You have already lost her respect, because she is walking all over you! You know it, and most everyone on MB knows it too! If you initiate Plan B, she will eventually begin to miss the "wonderful" you! I would almost guarantee it! Just my 2 cents worth...God Bless you in all your efforts! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

HT

Wiffle, I appreciate you not only taking the time to read the history of this thread but you also taking the time to write a response based on your thoughts surrounding my situation. Let me clarify a few points. 1. I have not consumed alcohol in over 6 months now. Mostly for religious reasons, and because I have shedded the lifestyle that was connected to my drinking. Late nights hanging out with the guys, strip clubs, sporting events, and cigar smoking. The fact that I run 4 miles every morning before work and treadmill, bicycle, and weight train in the evenings is not exactly conducive to having a few beers every now and again. 2. Your perception that I ignore all of the advice I recieve from this forum. I absolutely disagree with that because I have read every post and taken every single ounce of advice to heart and tried my best to impliment the positive and take what I think is in my best interest. Have I executed a flawless plan A. Not even close, but I have never stoppped trying and I wake up every morning praying for the strength to continue and live another day to love my wife and allow her a opportunity to see that I have made some terrible mistakes as a person in the past that has caused serious maybe irrrepairable harm to my marriage but I have changed as as person and I would spend the rest of my life making it up to her by loving, honoring, respecting, and treating like the queen I've grown to see her and respect her for. The fact that she is the mother of my two sons is extra incentive to keep my family together because the boys deserve to have a mother and father under the same roof showing love to each other and giving them the happy functional home that they deserve.3. Am I avoiding counseling or am I using this forum as a substitute for counseling? No not even a little bit. I have been in counseling since the onset of this saga. I have tried to get my wife involved in the counseling but she refuses. What is my real motivation to post? I post because this gives me a outlet to express my feelings as open and honestly as I can possibly be. Rather then calling the people I sometimes call when I reach what feels like a breaking point, or wearing out the same shoulders day in and day out I post because it beats punching walls or kicking the dog. Why haven't I called Harley yet? Good question. I really don't know. I think a big part of me is scared for him to tell me OK let's start with plan A. I'm scared to start from scratch. I'm terrified of the prospect of someone telling me I've been spitting in the wind for the last six months. 4. Some of your comments came across a little direct and to the point but I doubt you were attempting to be mean spirited. I think you read alot and wanted to scream at me a few times along teh way and probably got a little frustrated with my roller coaster manic actions and reactions but trust me when I tell you that I'm not being hard headed on purpose. I'm not some type of sick twisted sadist that likes the pain and agongy that I have endured over the first half of this year. I'm a emotional person that has always had his way his whole life. From being a only child to having a very loving submissive wife. Now for the first time in my life I am having to deal with consequences. Consequences based on my actions. It's hard. I know it easy to sit back and say well welcome to the real world but living through it and dealing with the guilt of causing most of this mess is overwhelming. Dealing with rejection when all I want to do is love my wife is very hard. My counseler and I had a session today. He told me that I have a very high treshold for pain and good emotional endurance. He feels that I should maintain the staus quo until I can't take anymore. He said stop talking to her about the marriage and stop trying to get her to meet your sexual needs and spend more time focusing on yourself and your kids. I agree. I will call Harley. I will continue doing what ever is needed to do all I can do to save my marriage. Unconditionally I commit all of my heart and soul to saving something I think is worth saving. I'm open to suggestions, and you know there have been several times when i was making progress and I thought to myself don't ask her that. Or don't do that. But I did it anyway because my heart and emotions overrode my brain. I regret doing it and I hated the consequences but it's hard to apologize for being so deeply in love with someone that you can't get out of your own way. I wish I had more self control. I wish I had the discipline to execute a flawless plan A, but I'm not flawless and I'm going to make mistakes. Anybody would and will. The good part of being on the outside looking in is you can give good objective advice. The negative is you don't have any idea of the type of tug a wars that go on inside of my heart and mind.

Hurt Tired, I have thought of moving out. The reason I haven't is because of my children. Trust me if I told you that if I didn't have to wonderful boys I would have left a long time ago. The marriage is important to me. I love my wife. I love her unconditionally. The easiest thing in the world would be for me to leave and say the hell with this craziness. I don't because she didn't quit on me, and I'm not a quitter. I'm a very loyal person. If I was a criminal I would be the type of person you would want to do crime with because I would rot in jail before I gave anybody up to save myself. I'm extremely loyal like that. I never quit on my wife. I was really depressed. I was unable to connect to her needs when she needed me most. The sad part is that if she had not have came to me when she did, i would most likely be still lost. Sometimes things happen in life because God usues them to get our attention. God knew at that time the only thing that could get my attention was my wife or my kids. Being broke didn't do it because my business was already suffering. Being fat and out of shape didn't do it because I was already that. My wife telling me she didn't want to be married to me was probably the worse/best thing that ever happened to me in my life. I'm closer to my God and my children then I have ever been in my entire life. I like what i see in the mirror for the first time in 10 years. I have grown tremendously. I know what it is to be a husband and a man for the first time in my entire life. I'm 33. My #1 priority and responsibility as a father and man is to set a positive example for my children. By moving out I send the message that boys in life when things gets real tough give up, take the easy way out and do what ever makes you feel better at that moment. I would rather send the message that when life deals you some bad cards and you give yourself a hit with some even worse cards you don't throw in you hand, you play it out and you stay in the game until you get the cards that help you win the game. Some might say I'm a fool falling on my sword but until God tells me to leave, or she leaves, or i know with out a shadow of a doubt that she is involved with someone else. I'm standing. In closing those were some very kind words and that's the type of encouragement that feeds my stregth. I maybe making a huge mistake. I may look back on this season of my life and say what a waste. The one thing I know for a fact is that it's better to try and fail then to never try at all.

I am reall confused about something and I would like some input. I recieved my very large monthly check today from the government contract my company has. The wife is eagerly anticipating it to because the kids school clothes, tuition payments and rent and bills all count on my providing. The wife told me today that she had to go to the grocery store and spend all the money she had today because ther was very little food left. I asked how much did you spend she said $60.00 and now she is broke. After I cashed my check I was very torn on whether or not to repay her those $60.00. I did give her the money and she said thank you but I felt kind of empty because My money seemms to be OURS, and her money seems to be hers. Considering the interesting dynamics of our current situation should I just keep providing like I normally would now that I have my priorities straight or do I scale back somehow. Am I being taken advantage of or am I doing my husbandly and fatherly duty?

Can you sit down with her and agree on a budget? That's what happens in families where things are going right, and I think you have a right to it.

Impulsive, I feel almost as if I am barging in on a post that is so well kept by Mike C2, and Sisiphus. I have been reading your posts since almost the beginning, I stopped for a few months and then looked to see how you were doing wondering if you still posted on here. to my suprise you did.I feel so much pain for you, and just wanted to remind you again with all of this advice, advice, advice, that you also need to know that you're not alone. Many people who are compelled enough to read your post and follow it's massive amount of pages, are drawn to read because they too have been in your shoes. I, like you had to go through a tremendous break down, before I could learn to be strong. I just remember that being the hardest thing I ever had to go through. I used to go to sleep, and the first thing I would think when I awoke was it was a horrible dream, but it wasn't it was my life. I did get through it and so will you, no matter what....Just wanted to let you know that you shouldn't have to make people understand why you are still posting, that this saga is not over and there are still some people here to listen.

This was one of those days where you wonder why your still here. I feel somewhat stupid because I'm staying here paying all the bills, sleeping on the couch and getting nothin in return. But this is the life I choose so who am I to complain? I'm pretty lonely. I took the boys on a picnic today and then we went to my son's hockey practice. Hockey practice is starting to depress me because it's such a family oriented sport. Everyone seems to be a happy little family, except us the king and Queen of dysfunction. I'm on my couch. She's in the bed I paid alll the bills and didn't even get a thank you. I need companionship. I need a friendly voice to talk to from time to time. A hug or a kiss would make my month but it's been forever since I've had geniune affection. This is one of those days that I wish would come around a little less often.

Things have deteriorated to the point where there is very little to say to each other anymore. I hate coming home. I don't think this thing is ever going to get any better. I'm tired of the couch, and I'm tired of being alone. I want to kiss someone. I want to be missed. I want someone to care if I'm alive for any reason other then I have to pay the boys school tuition, and take them to hockey practice. This whole concept of me getting stronger and becoming a better person is getting old, because who am I getting stronger and better for. We are both stubborn. She won't leave and I won't leave. What's the purpose of becoming this wonderul person if I can't share it with anyone. I can't even articulate the extend of my frustration right now. I have to go to sleep because if I stay awake any longer I am going to have to come up with reasons not to kill myself. I'm strong enough not to do it but I do have to fight the urge because life doesn't seem to be getting any better.

I am really starting to dislike my wife very much. She is just being such a *****. All I do is try to be as responsible and non confrontational as possible. I pay the bills and stay out of her way. I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured. I 'm at a point where I don't think I can take much more. I want to just shutdown. I feel like just staying in the bed and crying all day. She is trying to get me to breakdown. She wants me out. I want to leave but the impact on my children will be devestating. I feel trapped. I hate my life right now.

Imp...why haven't you called Steve Harley? You will feel better when you have a plan and some direction.In lieu of you counseling with Steve, I am going to ask HT to put up a post and repeat it three times, like in BeetleJuice.[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I am really starting to dislike my wife very much. She is just being such a *****. All I do is try to be as responsible and non confrontational as possible. I pay the bills and stay out of her way. I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured. I 'm at a point where I don't think I can take much more. I want to just shutdown. I feel like just staying in the bed and crying all day. She is trying to get me to breakdown. She wants me out. I want to leave but the impact on my children will be devestating. I feel trapped. I hate my life right now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>IMP: Hey man, wake up and smell the coffee! God is trying to tell you something! I believe that when you have done all you can do, then you have done ALL YOU CAN DO!!I know what it's like to cry and cry for hours on end! It feels terrible, but it also releases the hurt! (At least to some extent. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) What you have to keep telling yourself is that you are doing the right thing here! You are doing what God would want you to do! You know, Jesus Christ loved the church UNCONDITIONALLY! The church is supposed to love and honor Christ. But, if the church doesn't love Christ, do you think that Christ stops loving the church? NO!!!!Imp, this is what you have done w/ your W! You have given her unconditional love! But, now you are making it conditional! Am I right? You know I am, but you're only HUMAN! We all need to be loved, and you know that God loves you, your children love you, and I'd bet money that your W loves you too. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

But she is in a FOG!!! You have to bring her out of that FOG! How do you do this??????? Plan B!I know that this seems to be impossible, because you don't want to leave your children. And, I wouldn't blame you! I would NOT leave my children w/ your W!! But, maybe you can make arrangements to move your W out into a friend's house or apartment. Make it clear to her that you don't want any contact w/ her, until she can 1.) Be honest w/ you about any possible A, 2.) respect your commitment to the M, her children, and you, and 3.) Make a commitment to either work on repairing the relationship, or seeking a D!If you stay in this state of hate for much longer, Satan will have complete control! He already has a tight grip on your whole situation! Don't you agree? You are talikng suicide now! This is not God's plan for you!! You have to take charge NOW, and do what needs to be done before you have NO love left in you for any possibility of ever loving your W (or any woman, for that matter) again! Imp, good luck, and God Bless you for being so loving! But, it's time to act! Please, for your sake, and for the sake of your family, take action! Once again, God bless you! I will pray for you and your family! Take care!HT

<cough>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mike C2: In lieu of you counseling with Steve, I am going to ask HT to put up a post and repeat it three times, like in BeetleJuice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>BeatleJuice, BeatleJuice, BeatleJuice!!!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hey, IMP! Mike told me that the Harleys will come to your house in a van, and camp there! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Seriously though, he's right. Call Steve Harley if at all possible! But, take some kind of action at least!!!!!!!!!!!!God Bless!HT

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by impulsive: I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You can't hang all over her. But being around with the right attitude is better than being away. So do things around the house with your kids. Shower them with attention. Meanwhile, you need to get at the root of that nasty affair question. And the drinking. Can you do it? Just getting this far is a victory. But don't listen to people who echo the call for you to withdraw.

I woke up this morning and was looking for a pair of boxer shorts to wear. As I was going through the clean clothes bin I noticed my wife's purse at the bottom of the clothes bin. I looked in her purse and I found another credit card in my 4 yr. olds name. This time I confronted her. She of course wanted to know why I was going through her purse. I told her that I can care less about anything in her purse I;m concerned with this issue. She could not understand why I was to upset to even speak. When I came home finally there was a summons on the dining room table from a truck that was repossessed in her name while our business was not doing good about 4 yrs. ago. In big magic marker she left me a note that said THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH I AM SO SO VERY GLAD I MET YOU. Obviously sarcastic. I feel terrible about the past all I can do is repay the judgement. I had a emotional breakdown today and was lucky enough to make it to a friends house. I've come to the conclusion that I can't continue to put myself through this agony. I'm punishing myself for some reason. I've decided that it is time for me to move on with my life. I can't live like this anymore. My wife is no longer a option for me. My health is being affected here now. I haven't a clue as to what God has in store for me but it's not to contnue living like a peasant.

I URGE you to keep that card as evidence. I hate to say that... but like we suggested before you need to start gathering evidence in case the day comes that you want to fight for your children. Take that card and keep it somewhere safe. Also print out this whole thread as evidence in case something were to happen to the bulletin board (like a server crash that wipes out all the threads). DO IT NOW.PLEASE!

Somehow my problems don't seem nearly as devestating or important in the wake of yesterdays attacks. May God offer peace and comfort to the friends, families and love ones affected by this horrific act of cowardice.

Well things are back to that status quo. No fights, no sex, no affection. Just Good Morning, small talk about the World Trade Attack, and good night. She says little things that annoy the hell out of me, but I don't let it show. I need prayer right now. How long will things last like this? Until my love bank is totally empty? I would pay money just to kiss someone!(kidding) I haven't had a passionate kiss in over six months! I'm going nuts.

Impulsive,I enjoyed reading all 45 pages of your thread--even though it did take me SEVERAL days to do so [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

!! After many months of faithful & thoughtful input from so many other MB's, I am wondering how things have progressed for you and your WS since you last posted????Please update those of us who have been following your heartache.

Impulsive/dcope,Are you still hanging in there with Plan A????

Well things are in a very delicate place right now. My wife and I had actual intercourse this afternoon for the first time since May. We are in the same bed together but, I am executing a pretty discipline plan A. We had a relationship talk tonight after the sex for the first in a long time. She spoke very emotionally about the past and where it has her. I basically listened. Sh eis very hurt still oveer the mistakes and irresponsibility I displayed in the past. She said some very positive things about me though. She said that I made some tremendous changes and I'm very handsome and I'm a wonderful person but that she can't get past the past. We ahve been getting along very well lately. No lovebusting, I slacked off a little on working out because now my four yr. old just started playing hockey too now, so I'm at the rink 7 days a week it seems. Anyway I have learned so much about myself in the last few weeks that I just can't believe I was such a idiot for so long. She cuddles next to me as we sleep and we had some SF today but immediatelely afterwards she became very withdrawn and quiet. I asked her why and she explained that it was something she wish she had not done. She said she feels bad that she gave into her sexual need. She said she used to hate how in the past after sex I would act like all our problems would magically disappear with the orgasm. Anyway things are alot better but still not where they should be.

Do I initiate plan B even though I know it will kill my kids??????????

Hang in there everybody.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Wilham2 ]

Impy, you shouldn't be making life decisions from the opinions on this board.Talk to a profesional.I would note that you should do some thinking over whether this "limbo" is as damaging to your child as moving on would be, since he seems to be fraying under the current tension, even without overt fighting and arguing in the house.[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: Mike C2 ]

Am I missing something?What's going on Impulsive?

Hello everyone, Long time no hear from. Well I would be depressed in letting everyone know that not a thing has changed. We are still living in the same house. Sleeping in separate beds, and living separate lives. There is so much that has happened but it's really irrelevant at this point because I am happier then I have been in years. REALLY. I 've lost a ton of weight. My finances are turning around and I no longer want to be married either. I will eventually buy a house and move out but for now, we'll stay together for lack of financial ability to leap out on our own. I have no desire to be with her sexually or romantically. It took alot of hurtful things to get me to this point but she crossed the line one time to many. I'm sure she's involved with someone but I have'nt cared enough to get proof or specifics. Who cares? I wish her the best. When the time comes I will file or she will file and We will live happily ever after. It's funny how far I have come since that original post. How do I save my marriage? I'll tell you I knew she wasn't the women for me when she let me twist in the wind for 17 months and twist the dagger in my heart everytime she got half a chance. Well life goes on and I wish everyone well, I've been lurking and I'll never forget the people on this board that helped me through one of the most devestating times of my life.

Impulsive! I've often wondered about you and what had happened.I'm sorry to hear that you are in the same predicament. I'm happy to hear that you've come to peace with the situation.Are you going on with your life as well? I know that she is having other relationships, but are you? If you are, does she get jealous? What about the kids?It is truly amazing that you are able to tolerate that situation. I'd be outta there even if I had to live on bread crumbs in a dumpy apartment. Seriously. However, if you are staying so that the kids don't have to live in a dumpy apartment with her... I understand completely.

PS... are you still using Plan A even though you are now also in withdrawal?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:
Well life goes on and I wish everyone well, I've been lurking and I'll never forget the people on this board that helped me through one of the most devestating times of my life.Hi impy,I've been thinking about you too. I'm sorry that things are headed in this direction. One of the odd things about MB is that even sometimes when the end result is not a saved marriage, the MB program still serves an important and useful role....partly like lamaze breathing...giving people something to do while in pain....and partly like an eye-opening to their rotten spouse.Hang in there and stay in touch.

I can't call it plan A because plan a is a concentrated effort with the ultimate goal of reaching recovery. I don't want to reach recovery with my wife. All I care about is my kids then me. Let me rephrase that. God, my kids, and then me. I feel so stupid for allowing myself to go through the garbage I went through over the last 16 months or so. It's amazing how someone can be showered with attention and a obvious desire to be a better father, husband and all around person, and all all the other person sees is weakness, and neediness. Whatever. Well as far as me seeing anybody else... No not yet I'm still being refurbished. I need to get a better grip on myself and finances, and emotional stability before I bring anyone else into my world. As far as the current wife I would'nt care if she pooped cupcakes, and pee'd lemonade I wouldn't spend another minute entertaining the thought of reconcilling. I think it was the constant rejection, and negativity that took the ultimate toll on my desire to keep my family together. The mental and emotional warfare she waged, and the basic ability to hurt me and enjoy watching me reel in pain made it clear to me that this is not the type of woman I want to spend the rest of my life with. The amazing part is I'm sure she would start out being a wonderful wife to someone else. I take full responsibility for the pain and stress I caused her but, in retrospect I think her ability to quit and give up on me when I absolutely needed her more then any other time in my life is proof positive of a person that will give up on anybody that hits rock bottom, and doesn't have the bright future and infinite upside I once had. So it's a blessing! Knowing now that she is a quitter is a blessing rather then learning after I was paralyzed, or burned or disabled. Unconditional love is not wishy-washy. It's real. It's stable and it endures.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT RECOVERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tHE WIFE CALLED TODAY AND SAID SHE IS READY TO TRY TO SAVE OUR MARRIAGE. We talked this morning and I was about to move out into a shelter if I had to because i reached my breaking point 608 days of absolute hell. I stopped posting a while ago because I have been in withdrawal for months now. We are going to give it a try and believe me people if we can come back from the brink of certain divorce anybody can. I'm going to do a needs assessment and slowly work in MB concepts to built a bulletproof, divorce proof marriage with the help of God. God answers prayers. Wish me blessings!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Impulsive:

I've only been coming to this board for a few weeks, so I hadn't your story before. I just did a quick breeze-through to catch the basics. Did you ever find out whether or not she was having an A? Was she using cocaine again? What role did her friend in rehab end up playing? And what makes you think that this time is going to be different than all the other times she's given you hope?

I think you haven't gotten much response to your post yesterday because I bet most of your followers are not watching the board as close as before. You've been going through the wringer for a long time. I sincerely hope you've been able to continue your own personal betterment and that your wife has finally had an awakening.

Good luck to you!

Hey Imp...

WOW! I have followed your posts for...well since it has started and I must say this comes as a suprise. I thought you stopped posting because you were moved out and had a new life but nope you stayed and persistance did pay off.

This is only the beginning though, move slowly and be careful not to lay on too much too quick. You have been through hell and back and a I give you a pat on the back for sticking it out.

I'm praying that it works out for you and please keep us posted with more happy thoughts this board could use feedback from people who've made it.

TakeCare...Toni

Well thank you guys for the kind words and all the wonderful support I recieved over the time I logged @ marriage builders. Since summer we have had some unbelievable rollercoaster manic times my wife and I. Manic because our highs have been high and our lows very low. The affair question. Well I have come to the conclusion that their was some type of relationship or friendship with a guy she worked with that was here temporarily over the summer. He was from Brasil and It started as he was visiting the guys next door, and he was playing skateboard with my 10 yr. old. Then one day we had babysitter issues and she said this guy was available and the kids liked him and how did I feel. I said whatever but when I came home early from work i was a little uneasy. Something about coming home from work and finding another man nurturing your kids. I mentioned to her how uncomfortable I felt about it and she exploded. So he became a sore subject. A time or two I came home and he was there fixing the computer. (Talent guy I guess) Anyway around the time he was going back I noticed a bunch of cut up pictures on the coffee table and my daughter that spent the summer with us said ooh wifey made a going away present for ..... A photo album.(How special) I went into my room and a rose was hanging on my wall I asked where did this come from my daughter said ..... gave me and the wife roses. So now I'm out of my mind wife comes home HUGE Argument. Everything was me OVERreacting. No big deal. Four days later after he's back home I call my house and her friend answers my phone and answer not with hello but this guys name twice like she was expecting a call. I said yes in my best Brazillian accent and my wife gets on the phone, what ever happened to 10 minutes? I said who was supposed to call in ten minutes she gets quiet and says oooh the phone company or some bullcrap. A week or two later I overhear on the phone asking about when he's coming back and I confront her and it's like it's none of your business who I talk to. Huge figth again. F U at the the top of my lungs, with all the venom and vinagar I could muster. The biggest of the them all was when I found a picture of her kissing on teh lips this same guy. Another picture of her hugging him. More pictures of her friend who is married kissing a guy. I did something I've never done in my entire life, I wanted to hit but I couldn't bring myself to put my hands on a woman so I spit. I spit in her face not once but twice. I was so ashamed and still am because it's a disgusting, vile thing to do to anybody but I was that upset. She explained everything away of course and before you knew it I was feeling like the jerk for overreacting and going overboard. Anyway in the mean time and in between time my wife had gone back and forth from being civil to the biggest itch I've ever seen in my entire life. Drinking became a daily thing. She admit she was slightly addicted to "Perkadan" and she did'nt want to married still but whenever she felt like it we would have GREAT sex, but nothing else. It was interesting a few months ago i came to the point where I said ok I would start looking for a apartment. Suddenly we had a wonderful relationship and we had sex 4 days in a row. (Weird). Then I found this same guys phone number and email address and I withdrew totally. Anyway it was the same B.S. since the summer until two nights ago. I came home and said let's have sex. She said sure whatever. Hurryu up and come so i can go to sleep. I felt so cheap. I woke up the next morning and said enough is enough she sat there for a half hour while i told her I won't live like this another day. I was moving out into a shelter and get my life together because I deserve better then the constant abuse I've endured for 607 days straight. I left the house resolved to never come back to live. For the first time she called me and said let's try. She wants to be married and she wants to give it a go. I told her I want o say no so bad because the last few months have made me very bitter. I told her and she admits she has done more hurtful negative in 20 months then i did in the 6 years previous. So at this point she has been very nice like a different person all of a sudden. We've slept in the same bed for the first time in about 12 months. She kisses me goodmorning and goodnight for the first time and we get along a lot better. I'm cautiosly optimistic. I'm not jumping off the deep end I'm taking things one step at a time and I'll see what happens. I won't tolerate another nasty outburst or the least bit of disrespect. I realize I can live with or without her so time will tell where this goes from here. She swears there was nothing between her and this guy other then friendship. I reallly don't care the past I can bury my concern is the future If i ever get as much a a inkling of anything I will walk out of this marriage without ever looking back. I feel vindicted to the extent that I've learned so much about love marriage responsibility, needs and so much more. If she loves and admire and respect me she can have the best husband in the world butr if she tries to pull any of the B.S. from the last 2 years this will be the shortest recovery in the history of M.B

God bless

Yow....not exactly the smooth reconciliation update I was hoping for, but I guess all is well that ends well.

An awful lot of lovebusting in there. I'm going to have to put you in the corner in timeout for spitting. That's pretty gross, dude.

It seems that you are in a good place right now, see if you can stay on track.

Well, I'm glad to hear that you are refusing to be a doormat any longer. I have to say that I would have not put up with sleeping on the couch for more than 1 week, tops! Perhaps, if she sees that you are wearing the pants now and if she knows you're not going to take her crap anymore, it will make her see the light.

IMO, you've put up with enough. She needs to get committed to this M or get the heck out.

Good luck to you!

I'm still slightly skeptical at he motives. We talked and she made clear that her #1 and #2 en's are financial security and physical attractiveness. I told her that Admiration is a huge one for me. It's been vey6 calm and peaceful for the last couple of days she says she feels a little weird when i kiss her good morning and kiss her good night and I kiss her when i drop her off at work she says the lovey dovey is going to take time she doesn't feel it or very sexual right now, but maybe it will come with time she says. My concern was that for so long i told her that she never even tried to save the marriage that she's just going through the motions in order to say well I tried. She gave me somewhat of a disclaimer like well don't be surprised if you don't like me or if it just doesn't work. I told her well you'll get out of it what your willing to put into it. I just don't want to put myself in a position that gets me blindsided by not so pure motives. But I'm back in the bed and we are collectively saying we're trying so I guess i should make the best out of it huh? Another lovebuster fo rher is my reading to far into things and taking things personal or over thinking and taking things to heart, hypersensitive sorta. I would be vey interested in some feedback from everyone, opinions greatly appreciated.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:
Another lovebuster for her is my reading to far into things and taking things personal or over thinking and taking things to heart, hypersensitive sorta. I would be vey interested in some feedback from everyone, opinions greatly appreciated.

1. Don't do that stuff.
2. Work on the finances...even if there isn't iomprovement, FS is an EN where if at least visible effort is being made, I think the need gets met a little...it is like being ambitious gives them hope for the future, you know?
3. Work on the weight, workout, diet, etc. Same thought as above, the effort gets noticed, don't get discouraged about not meeting goals yet.
4. Don't lovebust.
5. No relationship talks. Give her some space, work on your Plan A, forget about your needs for now. Don't ask about sex, take it casually when it comes.
6. Oh yeah, here's a tip from Miss Manners. Don't spit on her. Ever. Again.

Really MikeC2, you think spitting is a lovebuster?? (just kidding)

Over these last few months, I've often wondered what was going on with you, impulsive. I believe you're right to be cautious here, but you should also be patient. A zero-tolerance policy is not the best policy.

I like Mike C2's advice, and I would add that now is an excellent time to get into counseling. Save your "relationship talks" for the counselor's office, and spend the rest of the time working on your wife's ENs. Assure her (and yourself) that it is quite reasonable to feel awkward right now, but by doing the right things long enough, those things will start to feel more natural.

From the beginning of your saga, impulsive, I've thought that your marriage had a better chance than a lot of the relationships we've heard about here on MB - if you would only be patient enough. I still think that.

Boy It's been a while, I mean 4 years or so but my saga continues. It's gotten worse, alot worse, but I'm probaly in as desparate of times as I ever been.