<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I'm loving, humble, and respectful and all she cares about is what she wants. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, the problem is that your surface changes are not masking your Taker. If you were really changed, there would be no disparity between the two. If you mask your fear and pain, that beneficially prevents those being misinterpreted as weakness. But your normal drives ... those are your problem. When you're loving, humble and respectful, those things are apparently only skin deep ... you are expecting payback, and sooner rather than later. You can be a fatalist, and say that that's just who you are, and if she can't love you anymore, it's time to move on. <P>Or you can be more than what you have been, and realize that regardless of where she is now in her personal development, you have a duty to yourself, your kids, and her to be more than you have been in the past. If it means that you endure her (hopefully temporary) departure without bitterness and rancor, and that you allow her the "space" she seems to want, well, then it means that. <P>This is not all about you. She may be blaming it all on you, but things are going on inside her, as they go on inside everybody with an I.Q. above that of a rock. Sometimes people you love make mistakes. She may shortly make some big ones. Can you prepare yourself for them so that you can withstand them? Don't abandon your hope, but get a handle on your fear. A woman who walks out isn't necessarily gone for good--unless your reactions become frighteningly pyrotechnic. Take stock and continue to rehabilitate yourself. Others are beyond your control. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I approached my wife with her weeding ring and asked her ro put it on until our divorce is final. She asked why I said because regardless of teh circumstances we are married. She gave me some BS about her finger is swollen and that it won't fit. THIS IS MY LINE IN THE SAND.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow! You're drawing a line over a <I>piece of jewelry</I>!? Perhaps my soul is insufficiently poetic, but of all things to draw a line over, this one strikes me as pretty silly.<P>Coincidentally, several months before my wife left me, she wasn't wearing <I>her</I> wedding ring. She claimed it was too tight. Guess what? She was right. So we took it to a jeweler and had him stretch it, and she started wearing it again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I have been wearing my ring and acting married for the last 4 months. Since she refuses to wear her ring and act married, I refuse to wear mine and act married. Enough is Enough. This really is not about my taker.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's <I>not</I> about your taker? Then what, pray tell, is it about? Your sense of fair play, perhaps, which has conveniently forgotten all about what your attitudes and behaviors put your wife through over the past several years?<P>Sorry, impulsive, I don't buy it. I think this is <I>all</I> about your taker.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My wife has been walking around for the last 4 months enjoying all the benefits of being married and me changing to become a better person. I have been supportive and patient. When she wants sex she gets it. When she wants me to get out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the store she get's it. I clean. I cook, I do laundry, I provide flawless domestic support. Every bill she asks for money for I pay. Everything she has asked for she has gotten without shouldering one responsibility of marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, you've been keeping score, impulsive? Scorekeeping is very bad for a relationship. Even with the love bank concept, the idea isn't to make sure that the balances in each other's accounts are equal.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I sat her down and told her that she has been saying for the last 4 months that I have been ignoring her, and not respecting her and trying to get my way. I told her that the only thing I've been trying ot do is get close enough to her for her to see that I love her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I guess you've now confirmed your wife's suspicions. All your changes have been artificial, designed to manipulate her to "see" what you want her to see.<P>Becoming a better person is supposed to be it's own reward.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I told that I'm not talking about it anymore, and I'm not trying to get her to let me in anymore, this is what she has been asking for... so now she has it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I hope that this time you mean it. You realize, don't you, that this doesn't require you to deviate from Plan A? You still should be looking for opportunities to meet your wife's needs. You just need to do it without also looking for opportunities to worm your way in past her boundaries.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It's easy to walk away from a marriage when you have someone catering to your every need and wish.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Where <I>ever</I> did you get <I>that</I> idea, impulsive? Perhaps it's true if the person who is catering to your every need and wish is <I>not</I> the person you are walking away from, but that's not the case here.<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I told her that the only thing I've been trying ot do is get close enough to her for her to see that I love her. I would never hurt her again, and that there was a opportunity for happiness if she gave herself a chance to be happy.</B><P>She knows you love her. Your love for her is not the issue. Her lovebank balance is the issue.<P>You say you would never hurt her and you are offering her an opportunity for happiness. Is what you are doing matching what you are saying? Let me play devil's advocate.<P>She is saying she needs space, that she feels controlled.<P>You are forcing your way into her bed and demanding she wear a ring. <P>She is saying she doesn't want sex right now.<P>You are propositioning her.<P><B>It's easy to walk away from a marriage when you have someone catering to your every need and wish.</B><P>NOOOOOOO. That is exactly wrong. That is what Plan A is about! It is HARD to give up a marriage to a perfectly behaved spouse. An expert spouse places doubts in the mind of a withdrawn spouse. Impy, Plan A has probably extended your marriage to this point. But your periodic acts of....impulsion....are setting you back.<P>You are forcing her into a decision, and it is too early in your changed behavior for the decision to go in your favor. <P>Apologize, retreat, and sleep on the couch.<P>Mike<P>

When I came home she wanted to talk immediately. I sat quietly and listened. She said that she feels like she is going to lose me as a friend. That she can't handle me not being her friend. She says that she knows I'm a all or none type person and I'm going to abandon her. She broke down into tears and started talking about how empty her life will be without me and how she can't handle it. She hugged me so tight it took my breath away. I told her that I will always be a father to my kids and I don't wish anything but happiness for her. I told her I understood how she's come to where she is emotionally. I respect it and I won't try to inflict my will on her anymore. Her tone has definetely changed and all of a sudden she seemed very loving. This is not a ploy or a game to me. I'm moving on. I love her but I can't find that gear to sustain myself in this thing anymore. I've tried. I've grown as a person and GDP you are right, that is a reward in it's self. I don't have any bitterness. I still love her. I just can't continue plan A hoping and praying that she comes around. I'm not leaving the house, I'm not going backwards into the old me, I will continue being the best father and person I could possibly be. I've come to understand the one thing plan A and Dr. Harley and all his wisdom can't get past. The fact that my wife will not turn back ever. It's not in her. She has that type of determination. While we were dating I once promised to cut the grass. She didn't have a lawn mower, so I kept procrastinating. When I finally got there I found her in the back yard cutting the grass with a pair of scissors. She is that determined. She would never turn around. I could plan A forever. She would adknowledge my positives but never turn around. So all I'm doing at this point is giving up on the hope of a turnaround. I'm still the new me, just refocused on my life rather then our life together. She doesn't have any idea the tramua our boys are going to endure at the end of this road. I will make sure they understand that we both love them and I will always be in there lives. Now I can stop focusing on her every move and thought and body language. Now I can focus on building my fortune and empire. I'll be ok as long as I keep taking things one day at a time. She didn't get that job she was hoping for so I'll keep up my financial support and my domestic support and believe it or not I'm a happier person so maybe this is what we needed to do a long time ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Now I can stop focusing on her every move and thought and body language. Now I can focus on building my fortune and empire. I'll be ok as long as I keep taking things one day at a time. She didn't get that job she was hoping for so I'll keep up my financial support and my domestic support and believe it or not I'm a happier person so maybe this is what we needed to do a long time ago.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, impulsive, I don't fault your plan here, but...<P>Here you experience a dramatic breakthrough with your wife (no, not a turnaround, but a breakthrough nonetheless), and you <I>don't even notice</I> because you are so focused on your hopelessness.<BR>

Dramatic breakthrough? Over the last 4 months she has never called me from work, but tonight she did to tell me that she is tired and that she is very emotional right now and that she will see me when she get's home. She almost had a seductive tone to her voice. Whatever! I'm staying unfocused on her, and going forward. Why is she trying to be so nice now? I don't get women. When your bending over backwards they act like they can't give you the time of day. As soon as I make up my mind to go forward with my life she wants to be nice and loving. Go figure!

You know, impulsive, you've started to talk an awful lot like the way your wife has talked over the last several months. You made changes and your wife said it was too late. Now she makes changes and <I>you</I> say it's too late.<BR>

While I don't agree with the item you chose to draw a line regarding, I do believe that "women" find strength and self-respect attractive in their own right. Much more seductive than a doormat. <P>This is NORMAL on the way to reconciliation. You made a firm stand, she sees you are deadly serious, and very desirable. She comes crying back.<P>Please understand this!

I don't know what to do anymore. The wife came home and took my couch blanket, and put it in the boys room because they had a friend sleep over. Thus, relegating me to sleep in her bed with her. She asked for a bad rub, (she usually doesn't ask I always offer), and then she started being borderline seductive with her body language. I didn't bite because I said I wouldn't pressure for sex and I won't. This morning she asked me to just cuddle. Cuddling turned into me going down, and reluctant SF it was pretty weird. It's almost like she was calling my bluff to see if I could withstand the temptation of sex. To see if I was serious about my line in the sand. Afterwards it's back to the same old thing. I'm terribly confused right now. I'm not sure if she coming around or if she's just scared to be alone. I'm not sure if I should back off or press forward. The more i back off it seems like she pursues, when I press forward she backs off. It starting to seem like a game I have no interest in playing. She cuddled last night and talked very sweet and loving. I'm not that tough. I can't act like I'm not going to melt in her arms. But should I? Even the SF is weird because she wants to do everything but penetration. I don't get it. Can someone help me sort this mess out????? GDP, I'm not even acting like I don't want to be married to this woman. I just don't have anymore energy or patience for rejection and apathy. I'm getting the impression that she is conflicted but can't bring herself to let all the way go, or committ to making it work. So we are in a marital purgatory. How long can this last? I can't sustain the yo-yoing emotional rollercoaster.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I'm not sure if I should back off or press forward. The more i back off it seems like she pursues, when I press forward she backs off. It starting to seem like a game I have no interest in playing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't play the game. Don't back off, and don't press forward. It sure looks to me like your wife is coming around, but it's going to take more time.<P>This doesn't <I>have</I> to be as much of a roller-coaster as it is, impulsive. Drop the expectations, keep the hope, and shift into a gear you can maintain.<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>The more i back off it seems like she pursues, when I press forward she backs off.</B><P>Hmmm....sounds like a relationship.<P>Dcope, I've been down this road, although my W is a lot subtler than yours. After Plan Aing for months and hearing a lot of "we aren't meant for each other", I had a meltdown last fall, and suddenly, faced with a separation, she was very interested in meeting my needs and making me happy. <P>It is a result of the theory we hacve all been pounding at you -- being strong and independent is attractive, and being needy and clingy is unattractive. <P>I suppose there could also be a nod to the theory that the withdrawn partner enters intimacy first, but I'm not positive that is actually what is happening here. I think that she was shown the abyss, and, whereas 3-4 months ago she would have said "Fine, leave!", now, the new Dcope has her thinking that maube she needs to keep evaluating. <P>If I were you, I would walk a line of staying somewhat cool, but polite and casual, and try to POJA some finite marital agreements going forward.<P>Mike

This whole idea of needy and clingy vs. strong and independent is interesting. The wife talked to me and said that she felt terrible yesterday. She felt a overwhelming sense of doom. She felt empty, and alone. She also said that she was very hesitant to talk to me about it because she felt needy and clingy. hhhmmmm. She doesn't want to let go and she doesn't want to committ. After sex she said that she feels that I'm sexually needy. She says she can really do without it, but it doesn't seem as though I can go without. I have a very healthy sexual appetite. Sex to her is not a priority. I guess I'm back in the bed. So she sees me as needy sexually and unable to function without it. I don't want to push or force my way into any situation. In fact i'm going to take a few steps back, and focus on the kids and business. The other thing I noticed about th ewife today is seem very bothered with the fact that I was so happy today. She seems to see things along the lines of win/loss on everyday and every issue. It's like a mini power struggle everyday. Is it strange that i felt better detached emotionally yesterday. Even though we had Sf and she came around alittle yesterday it seemed as though she did so reluctantly. Now she seems to be trying to go back to where we were a few days ago. Me a doormat, and begging for our marriage back. I also think the fact that she didn't get the job that was going to launch her into finacial independence had a impact on her abyss sighting yesterday. I don't want a marriage when it feels like the only reason she is here and trying is because she thinks I'll leave her high and dry if she doesn't meet my needs. Yesterday she felt compelled to call and felt emotional and willing to met some of my needs. After I shwoed her that I was still tied to her through sexual dependency she changed back today. What is this all about?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>This whole idea of needy and clingy vs. strong and independent is interesting. The wife talked to me and said that she felt terrible yesterday. She felt a overwhelming sense of doom. She felt empty, and alone. She also said that she was very hesitant to talk to me about it because she felt needy and clingy. hhhmmmm.</B><P>Well, there you go. She understands the dynamic. <P><B>After sex she said that she feels that I'm sexually needy.</B><P>My W said the same thing. "Even if things get back to going well, we still have this sex imbalance thing." But what I've learned over time is that the sex imbalance thing is somewhat of an illusion....fix the relationship and you solve the problem. A man in a state of intimacy doesn't want to force sex on his tired W. A woman in a state of intimacy WANTS to meet her mate's SF need, even if it means pushing the envelope and having sex when she might otherwise not want to. When you are in a state of intimacy, there is a reward in pleasing your mate or deferring your own needs to give your mate a break. That reward is not there when you are in conflict and your Taker just demands sex, sex, sex; or withdrawal where you turn your interest in meeting your spouse's needs off.<P>AND...what I found is that for me, SF became the focus of other unmet needs. If I didn't have good communications, feel admired, talk much with my W, and, especially, get enough affection, well, sex made up for it. If I felt insecure in the relationship, sex fixed that. Once some of those issues got taken care of, my SF needs tapered down.<P>Since sex is an issue with you guys, it would be great if you could reach a compromise where you both agree to stop talking about separation, actually WORK on the marriage via MB methods, and agree to an acceptable sexual schedule, maybe once a week to begin. That way you remove the sexual tension. <P>Impy, one of the things that changed my W's perception and gave me some leverage was when I stopped pushing for sex, and actually turned her down sometimes when she initiated. I'm not necessarily advising that you do that, but you need to send a signal that you can and will step down your sexual demands in consideration for her current feelings. <P>Mike

She came home from work drunk and raising hell about a unpaid bill. She was hurling insults and totally rude. This morning she wanted to apologize and talk nice and sweet like nothing happended. I'm at the point where I'm totally emotionally withdrawn from this marriage at this point. I don't want to meet any of her needs and I don't want her to meet any of my needs. Then she came up to me later and hugged me and said please stop being so distant, and not talking to me. I had no desire to hug her or have her hug me. She then said stop acting like I was acting towards you. I really don't want to work on the marriage right now. I don't like her very much right now, and I wish she would offer sex anytime soon because I have no desire what so ever. Would love to tell her NO THANK YOU. She really pushed some buttons last night. I've really been working hard trying to be a good father, husband and person. Did not deserve to be talked to like a piece of crap. Won't tolerate it. In fact Im pretty tired of this whole scenario and look forward to the summer of fun in the sun with my boys and seeing how fast I can put the last most miserable 4 months of my life behind me.

Impulsive,<P>I have been reading your story over the last few weeks. I feel compelled to reply at this point. I am sure I'm in the minority, but I think you are making a good choice in focusing on your children and yourself. I don't know you, but I hate seeing you go through this rollercoaster.<BR> <BR>And for those who think I don't know what I'm talking about, I do. My husband had a PA six years ago, and I had an EA a few years later. We have been through so much, but through it all, we knew that our family was most important and chose to stay together for our daughters.<P>I think there is nothing wrong with staying together for the children, if your intention is to work on the marriage. I married my best friend and didn't want to lose that.<P>I see so many things come out of your wife's mouth that I said. The whole, I want to stay friends with you, I am only staying for the children, etc. The difference is that I decided that I would love my husband. I made a choice and loved him. I am now madly in love with him, and he is with me. He says that never changed for him.<P>Ok, I'm going off here, but I think that you need some time to focus on you. I think you're right in stepping back from the turmoil. No one can predict the future, but you can focus on God, your boys and you. I think you will be great in time.<P>Michele<P>P.S. I hope this all makes sense. I'm kind of worked up right now and may just be rambling. If that's the case, I apologize.<p>[This message has been edited by MD (edited June 03, 2001).]

Thanks Michele, Those were very supportive words. I agree staying together for the kids is worth it if you have a non abusive situation and the kids are in a positive loving home. I have told my wife while I was trying to make it work that I don't want to be married for the sake of being married. All I wanted her to do was try. If she tried and it didn't work then we could part friends. She refused and the rest is history. Now I've reached a point where I don't want to try. I'm a wonderful husband right now. I would make someone a great husband. My heart go out for some of the women on this board who talk about husbands that don't touch them or love them or have sex with them and it's terrible. I hate to sound so negative but those husband might change once they realize that you realize that you deserve better and won't settle for anything less. I'm so bitter right now for her actions not only last night but her attitude over the last few weeks. I know i have a lot of blame from the past but she seems to be milking me while I was in my doormat phase. I know people say plan A is not a doormat phase but she took the kindness for weakness. The part that frustrates me the most is she gladly soaked up all the benefits of the plan A. As far as the kids go. They love us both. I wish they could enjoy the benefits of two loving parents in teh same house but I have to shoulder some blame because when she was a wonderful wife I was a jerk. The thing I can't seem to get her to understand was that we can't do a single thing about last month or last week or yesterday. I can and we could live for today and for tommorrow. Tommorrow is the first day of the rest of my life and I'm going to make it a positive and wonderful as possible for my kids and I. My wife could be doing cartwheels butt naked with tassles on her tits and I could look at her with no desire because I've reached the point I was trying to avoid. Tired of being Tired.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Now I've reached a point where I don't want to try.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So. You've entered the withdrawal phase of a relationship. That's natural.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'm so bitter right now for her actions not only last night but her attitude over the last few weeks. I know i have a lot of blame from the past but she seems to be milking me while I was in my doormat phase. I know people say plan A is not a doormat phase but she took the kindness for weakness.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your wife may have been taking advantage of you, but so what? If you were really giving freely, then you were not being a doormat. It should be enough for <I>you</I> to know that. How your wife interpreted your kindness should not affect your integrity.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As far as the kids go. They love us both. I wish they could enjoy the benefits of two loving parents in teh same house but I have to shoulder some blame because when she was a wonderful wife I was a jerk.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, if you want to do the right thing by your kids, you will continue to work on your relationship as you have been. The only thing that's changed is that now you don't <I>feel</I> like doing it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The thing I can't seem to get her to understand was that we can't do a single thing about last month or last week or yesterday. I can and we could live for today and for tommorrow.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Guess who else needs to understand this, impulsive? Yes, it's <I>you</I>. You can't change the fact of your wife's drunken abuse last night (or whenever), or the hurt she caused you by her behavior. You <I>can</I> tell her what to expect if she does that again. You <I>can</I> tell her how you feel, and what you plan to do. Just make sure you give her no reason to doubt your love and commitment <I>regardless of how you feel</I>. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Tommorrow is the first day of the rest of my life and I'm going to make it a positive and wonderful as possible for my kids and I. My wife could be doing cartwheels butt naked with tassles on her tits and I could look at her with no desire because I've reached the point I was trying to avoid. Tired of being Tired.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, burnout was inevitable at the rate you were going. Time to shift into a lower gear, but <I>don't drop out of the race!</I> If you do, I'll bet you'll regret it.<BR>

Dont Cope/Impulsive<BR> You are such a man of action - you have worked hard over the last 4 months, you have struggled to become a better person/husband/father. You are working , you are taking care of yourself, you are there for your family. You have made such progress. Don't you feel good about yourself?<BR> But then there is your wife. She just doesn't respond to all your hard work. When do you get rewarded? When does she appreciate all that your are? all that you have done? How long can you continue to give, give, give and get nothing? Doesn't she see how you are now making money? How you don't lay around getting fat? Isn't 4 months enough to prove you are different and better? How long can you continue without some good feedback? When do you get yours?????<P>All valid, good questions. And I ask them everyday as I try to pull my H back to us. This is a hard road. I never thought I would stand for this - but you know - it may be worth it. I read your posts, and though my situation is different - we are the same in many aspects. I too am ready to throw in the towel and find someone who will appreciate me. ME!! How can he not want ME! ME! ME!~<BR>I just counseled with Steve H on this very subject. 4 months is not long enough. Keep going - often when we are ready to give up they are just about ready to give in.....wouldn't you be upset to find out that 4 more weeks or 8 more weeks could have turned your marriage around? You said in an earlier post you were giving her until Sept....well, that is a ways away. <BR>Steve did say at some point an ultimatim will have to be given. But I have eroded my marriage over a long period and 4 months will not always be enough to repair that amount of damage. If H only gave me 4 months, we would have parted years ago.... Think - can you give a while longer if in the end it may make a difference?<P>STAY THE COURSE!!!<BR>I don't mean to be presumptious - but what about your kids? You shy away from posts about them, which leads me to believe that your motivations to keep your marriage together is not melded with their best interests. I may be wrong, but 4 months is not that long when you look at the devastation of a lifetime for your kids. You may not think this is an issue as you have a 15 year old from a previous relationship. But it does effect our kids - STAY THE COURSE! DON'T BE THE ONE WHO WALKS AWAY FROM YOUR MARRIAGE.

You're doing what so few have successfully done! Don't you quit now!<P>The finish line is in sight and you want to drop out? Is your marriage a 50-yard dash or a marathon? <P>Your wife's behavior gives you a perfect lever. What is a mother of 3 young children doing out at night without her husband. Especially since she's getting drunk. What is the role of alcohol in the deterioration of your marriage? Does your wife need help? Is it time for you to be not just here, but at Al-Anon? I'm just asking. The answers are for you to find.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>The thing I can't seem to get her to understand was that we can't do a single thing about last month or last week or yesterday.</B><P>As GDP brilliantly said, this applies to you as well. Your W threw out an olive branch, don't toss it aside. Your W has six exemplary years and 5-6 rotten months on her record. You have 6 rotten years and 3-4 exemplary months. You both need to forget the past and move forward. That attitude is contagious, you need to adopt it first. By flaming out now you are signalling her that the past 4-5 months have been a herculean effort, an act...that is not what Plan A is supposed to be!! <P>If you are truly unable to Plan A anymore, you need to consider a change in your strategy.....as in Plan B. Are you ready for that? Move out and cut off contact? Because if you aren't going to Plan A, you shouldn't be in limbo.<P>If I were you, I'd try to find the strength to continue. You are only about 100 days into what has been a hit and miss effort. You are getting better. Give it 100 days of a perfect Plan A.<P>Look into your current malaise, exhaustion and frustration (after a few months) and imagine how much of it your W must have had after six years. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 04, 2001).]