I'm new the the forum and don't know what much of the abbreviations mean, but have read His Needs, Her Needs and am currently reading Love Busters and have read pretty much all of the articles here on Marriage Builders. I have been married 16 years and we have had ups and downs the entire marriage. I have almost left twice due to how he acts. He likes to do whatever her wants, whenever he wants, and makes me feel like a clingy idiot if I resist. He isn't abusive, but recently I did suspect he was having an affair and began snooping the cell phone records and saw that he was texting a number 50-60 times month, for an hour here and an hour there for a few months. In December I began sneaking and getting a look at his cell phone while he slept. It turned out he was texting with his "mentor" at work who lives in a different city but comes in to mentor her people several times a month. My husband owns his own business and keeps all of his work to himself. Rarely discusses it with me at all. I am a stay at home mom who cares for a rambunctious 3 year old and we have a 15 yo daughter and a 13 yo son as well. Obviously my world was shattered when I saw what was going on. I am a giver by nature and to be a good wife, I always thought that giving him freedom was how I was a good wife. Obviously now that I read HNHN and LB I understand where I went wrong as a doormat wife.

The texts were very flirtatious in nature and right before I approached him about this emotional affair, there was the begining of sexual type jokes and the texts were up to 150 to 200 a month and sometimes for 2 hours straight during the day. Keep in mind that my husband never texted anyone else but me or my kids and he texted her more than me most months as he wasn't a big texter. He also never attempted to talk to me at all while he was at work. In January I finally decided enough was enough and told him what he was doing was inappropriate. He deleted all the texts that day, but I had already sent most of them to my email and had them saved and printed out. He went on denying that what he was doing was ever inappropriate and when I told him to hand me his phone so I could show him the inappropriate texts, he confessed he deleted them, but didn't know why. Finally after a month, I pulled out the two months worth of texts that I had and showed him. I then demanded he cut off all ties with her, which he didn't do. I did get him to send her an email telling her that all contact should be via work email or work phone. She left the company about 3 weeks later. He still denies he ever felt anything for her. I don't believe him. They were both in Las Vegas together for a training session, I want to add. And they did text during this time, as well.

So that's one small part of our history. We decided to do MB to repair what we "have". We both read HNHN and took the emotional needs questionaire. I am meeting all his needs and his bank is full. He doesn't meet mine. My top need is conversation and we spend maybe 5 hours together. He says that it is impossible to get more. The reason it is impossible is because of his after work activities. He is assistant scoutmaster of my son's troop and is gone once a week for 2 hours (after work) and goes away on just about every campout out, which means I don't see him Friday as he works then prepares for the camp out, all day Saturday, and then not until Sunday afternoon when they return. He barely interacts with my son during the campouts, due to the scout-led program. He also is in charge of a 5 K race for our son's school for the past 4 years, which I do not agree with since he gives so much time scouting. He was also a marathon runner for many years, and trained running up to 21 miles a week or more, so he would be gone running and leave me to take care of the kids. I finally got him to stop that, but mainly it was because he was on campouts and couldn't train for them. He makes me feel guilty for forcing him to stop pursuing his dream. The problem he has with all that he volunteers for, is that he has to be the best at it. He will give and give to these pursuits and ignore me and his kids, just for recognition. If he tried half as hard on our relationship as he did when he volunteered, we'd be in bliss. And I feel like such a jerk for complaining that he's volunteering for my kids' activities, but he isn't meeting my top two needs of conversation and openness and honesty.

I was reading Love Busters and would read one chapter, then give the book to him to read it. Well, he only got through the first section and then stopped 2 weeks ago. In the meantime, I am ahead and there are so many Love Busters he does that the more I read, the more frustrated I get with him and my life with him, but I can't say anything because he hasn't read that far and won't get it.

I get so sad and so discouraged that I just want to give up. I can't force him to read it. I am a doormat to him and to my children as they see how he treats me and they do the same. They all see me as their cook, maid, scheduler, and driver. I just don't know what I should do at this point. I am back to conflict stage and want to go back to withdrawal because it is unfair that I am following the rules, meeting his needs, and he leaves mine unmet. I am tired of this dictatorship! Withdrawal is so much less painful for me.

It is such a mess. I have no idea what to do anymore. Please give me any support you can. I'm so alone!

Thanks,
Trouble In Texas

TT, welcome to Marriage Builders. I would go read When to Call it Quits in the newsletter section. Dr Harley addresses a woman in a similar situation and ended up transforming her marriage with his tactics. Go read that and come back here.

Melody,
Thank you so much for your reply. I can definitely see how doing Plan A/Plan B would be what I need to do. Unfortunately I don't have an income, so I am pretty much trapped here. When you do Plan A and B, do you tell them this is the plan or do you do just as she did in the article and move out while they are at work? I have three kids, one which stays at home with me all day, so leaving just isn't a reasonable option if he doesn't meet my needs. As much as I am unhappy staying, my kids would be even more unhappy if we left here and moved someplace else. I wouldn't do that to them.

He schedules himself such that we spend a mere 5 hours together alone, if that, per week. Many of these hours are spent doing yardwork or other required tasks, not having fun. Or they are from 9 to 10 at night when we are both half asleep.

He won't follow the POJA. He makes decisions and asks me after he made them if I agree. So it seems like he's including me, but he isn't. He says he's locked into his current obligations and can't get out of them, so I have no right to complain about them. But I never agreed to them in the first place, so I am bitter and frustrated when he leaves to participate in them.

I guess my main question is do you tell them Plan A and give them a deadline before Plan B, or is this something you decide to do on your own without telling them?

Thanks
TinT

TinT, you don't tell him about Plan A and Plan B. In your situation, I would write him a Plan A letter telling him about your unhappiness and what it will take to make you happy.

Lay out a plan for him that is very detailed, ie: spending 20 hours per week of undivided attention time, meeting each others needs, etc. Getting your agreement before he commits to these activities. Ask him to step down as Boy Scout leader, etc. And ask him to go through the MB program with you. [you really need to do this because Dr Harley will work your husband over if he doesn't get on board] You need a hands on coach who will hold your husband accountable.

In the meantime, visit a lawyer and find out what your rights are. Tell the lawyer that you may have to separate and if so, how can you get your husband to move out and pay the bills..
See, just because you are separated does not mean your husband can stop supporting you.

Give him a few weeks to get on board and if he doesn't, then file for separation/divorce and ask him to move out.

See, your husband believes he has you trapped so you have to put up with whatever hand he deals. He might wake up if you disabuse him of that notion.

And in the meantime, I would start training for a career in case you need that in the long term.

I have been reading more about Plan A/B and affairs. Since my husband says he never had an affair, only that he texted with a woman and crossed a line, do I still do Plan A/B?

Also, I have told him that I do not want him to continue with scouts or with the race and he says he does want to do both. So because he wants to continue with them, no change will be done. He does not follow POJA and I'm not sure what to do as he has drawn the line.

Also, because I am so frustrated with his snail pace at working on the relationship and his apathy toward improving the things that I have talked to him about, I have gone to a state of conflict. I feel myself just wanting to fight about everything, stand up for myself and fight. I can't eat, I can't sleep. He slept on the couch last night. I know that fighting is wrong so I really don't want to, but I just don't know what to do.

Also, I found out yesterday as I was checking into our financials that he keeps me out of, that we are in debt to the count of over $80K. He has cards that he has used "for business" that I didn't even know about. I am in the process of getting passwords to the accounts so I can see where all this money went. He has hidden all of this from me.

I am feeling pretty hopeless right now. I just want to be an ostrich and put my head into the sand. There are so many issues, I am just not optimistic that we can make it better.

TinT

TinT, in the newsletter I referenced, the woman's husband did not have an affair either. PLan A and Plan B does not need to be for an affair. It is effective when a spouse refuses to meet your needs. Your husband leads a very independent lifestyle and is destroying the love in your marriage. If it keeps up this way, you will end up divorced for sure. Wouldn't you agree? But there might be a chance if you separate from him because it might be the wake up call he needs.

Here is the article: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2264789#Post2264789

Melody,
Thanks for clearing that up for me. His race is this weekend, so I am trying to hold out until next week to give him plan A or give him a list of sorts for what he needs to do. I will say that when I suspected the affair I did give him all of his emotional needs and his account was very full. He was the happiest with me that he had ever been in his life. Yet he continued his independent behavior and tried to meet needs of DS, which isn't in my top 5. I am a stay at home mom and don't have to work. Helping me with the chores doesn't put deposits into my account. It would for a lot of women, but I need him to share conversation and be open and honest. He continues to hide things from me, lie by omission, and not be honest. So I have a big problem with giving him all his needs again when I know what the result will be. Him taking. Him having his cake and eating it, again. I know that this is going against MB because I'm supposed to give him his needs, but when he neglects me, I don't want to.

Basically I told him that I am not going to read any more of LB until he takes the book and finishes it. That since he isn't continuing the program, I'm quitting it. It was a selfish demand, I know. Well, I didn't demand he continue to program, I just said that since he wasn't continuing it, I was quitting. It was a selfish demand by reverse psychology..... He read LB that night that he slept on the couch, for about 20 mins and then he fell asleep. He didn't read it last night. He instead tried to get me to have sex with him as I was falling asleep. Sex is actually one of my top 5 EN, so I thought about having it, but resisted. What a mess.

Thanks for listening. I know people are reading this. I know that my husband isn't as bad as some of them out there, but he certainly could be better. Emotional neglect is no fun and not how I thought I would end up. Totally alone in my marriage. I'm fit, I'm beautiful, I'm intelligent, I'm caring, I'm funny, and I'm a good wife and mother. I just wish I had a husband who saw more than just himself and his goals and dreams.

Thanks again,
TinT

Here's another good article that may help.
How to Overcome Independent Behavior

Brainhurts,

Thanks so much for your reply. I have read this article and I think we have so many issues that it is hard to break it down into steps. Here is how I see our plan coming together:

Steps to improve our marriage:
1. Both read HSHN. Completed.
2. Both read Love Busters. In progress.
3. Spend 20 hours of UA together each week. (currently 5 or so)
4. Learn to follow POJA correctly, not where one spouse sacrifices.
5. Using POJA, eliminate all volunteer and extracurricular pursuits that do not follow POJA.
6. Work on eliminating Love Busters
7. Learn to meet TOP Emotional Needs, not the ones we think our spouse has or the easiest ones for us to meet.

Please provide feedback as to the order of things. Like I said, it is hard to know where to start or how to prioritize.


Thanks,
TinT

You should be doing all of that at once! POJA will be much easier after UA, ENs, and LBs are addressed, because you will be in love and in love, we want to enjoy time with our partners...IB tends to disappear.

Put willingness at the top of the list. Without willingness, nothing will change. I understand that you don't want to meet his needs and I can see it is leading to huge resentment right now. I would do your best to not lovebust him and be as pleasant as possible. Having sex with him would be very hard and might even create an aversion since you are so emotionally detached.

I would suggest you start planning for a separation. Give him a plan A letter and tell him this will lead to divorce if he doesn't get on board. Contact an attorney and find out your rights. He would still have to support you even if you did separate.

You are right, doing chores does not deposit very many love units because it is not an intimate emotional need. I certainly don't want my husband doing housework!

Thanks CWMI,

Anything else we should do? I just want to both finish the LB book and take the LBQ! I also think we need to re-take the ENQ as we both re-read HNHN and I really don't think our first ENQ was accurate.

Starting to feel optimistic.

TinT

Melody,

Your letter is so much better than the one I just sent him explaining my emotional needs.

He just sent me an email telling me how happy he is when we have sex, how much he needs it, etc etc. I think he believes these emails replace actual face to face conversation with me. It has been close to two weeks, so just like clockwork, he is suddenly getting interested in having sex again. So he will start to talk to me, pay attention to me, and I will want to have sex with him because sex is actually one of my top 5 needs. Yet I don't want to give him sex because once he has it, his interest will go back to his personal persuits and off of me for about 2 weeks.

I'm going to work on this letter, and after the run this weekend, I'm going to figure out if I can find a position working again. Once I have a good idea that I can actually support myself, I give him the letter.

Thanks,
TinT

tintx, the emotional needs you should be focusing on are the 4 intimate emotional needs. THOSE are what restore love to your marriage. And they have to be met for 20+ hours of undivided attention. THAT is where your focus should lie. If you take the ENQ now they are not going to be very accurate because you are not in love. When you are not in love, people tend to rate things like DS and FC as their highest ENs.

If you want to turn this around, you need to take some ACTION like scheduling 20+ per week and meeting the top 4 intimate ENs. Everything else can come after.

Emails can be a GREAT way to communicate difficult problems so I would not dismiss that. However, he needs to understand that in order for women to feel sexual they need to feel an emotional attachment. Without that, they just feel used.

I would send him this article so he understands how to get the sex he wants: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

If you can get him to commit to 20 hours per week, this won't be a problem. And I understand EXACTLY how you feel.

At what point would a normal person suspect an affair? And I need advice on how to figure this out.

The run is over. I supported him fully in the race and worked my [censored] off for him and got no thank you. Since the run we have spent one hour alone together. All I want is to spend time with him, for him to take the time to think about me and send me even one small text during the day that wasn't initiated by me. Am I really asking too much from him to want to show affection.

At this point, the only thing that makes me keep him here is the fact that he does the school prep for the kids in the morning and has been cleaning up after himself in the kitchen. I am so sad.

I just don't know what to do anymore.

Another question: Who defines whether or not a relationship with an OP is an EA? Him or me?

Also, if he won't talk to me all day (conversation is my top emotional need) and won't spend time alone with me, how can he expect me to meet his needs and why would I want to? I sit here and long for someone, anyone, to pay attention to me and want to talk to me and want to have fun with me. Am I wrong to feel this way?

Suspect an affair when there are as many texts as your husband has had with his "mentor". Is he still texting her?

AM

What is going on?

T, have you sat down with him yet and scheduled 20+ hours per week? This train will never leave the station unless you do that.

Who defines whether or not a relationship with an OP is an EA?

Most people in an EA don't want to accept the concept of an EA...they think it is "okay" because it is not a PA.

If he is in an EA, he is going to avoid spending time with you.

I would suggest that you make sure you have eliminated Love Busters so time spent with you is pleasant time.

Then plan a date with him...the kids can watch the little one. Start building up more dates/UA time with him.

I don't see any texts or emails coming in from her anymore. That doesn't mean there couldn't be some other method he chooses to use that won't show up on the cell phone records. The only people he has texted the past few weeks is me, a woman in his office (he runs his own business and has 2 women and a man that work with him daily), and my two teenagers.

No we haven't. The day after the run, instead of trying to spend time with me, he went out and cleaned the garage. When I discussed this with him later that I was disappointed he chose the garage over spending time with me and he said that is a love buster. I'm pretty much over asking him to spend time with me. If he doesn't want to, then what? So I put on my bikini, cleaned the pool, poured myself a margarita, and then layed in the sun. After all the work I did the day before, I thought a little R & R was good for me.

Well here's the thing. I have been doing this sort of thing our entire relationship. At some point I want to be his priority. I am last.

He schedules himself such that we can't spend time together. Monday he worked until 6:30 pm and then went to scouts until 9 pm and then was tired. Tuesday I took my daughter to an event and left as soon as he came home (which was 30 minutes late from work), today he is doing scouts again. By the time he gets home he will be tired and won't want to talk and will want to watch tv. To be honest talking with him is unpleasant for me as I am disconnected from him, so I don't force the issue of talking. I just don't feel comfortable talking to someone who doesn't want to hear me and seems disinterested, is checking his phone or literally walks out of the room while I'm talking. Is this just totally hopeless? I just don't know what to do about it anymore.

I just wanted to thank you all that have been helping me along. I have been reading the boards a lot and am amazed at your wisdom and how much you all help everyone!

DH met with the scoutmasters Wednesday night and is trying to exit from most of the campouts and just be the coordinator of the camp outs. That will be nice. The same three dads go to every single camp out which is one weekend a month, so he is actually trying to unhook the other two also, so they can be with their wives, too. Maybe make it a policy of the troop that all the weight doesn't fall on the three of them. I hope they can do it.

We are working harder to spend more time together. This is helping a lot, which I knew it would, but he wouldn't see the value, so I am Plan A-ing him as much as possible and rewarding him for spending time with me by eliminating LB and really trying to hit his top needs of SF and Admiration when he takes the time to just talk and show affection. It is very easy to meet those needs when he actually gives me his time and we enjoy Conversation together.

Our biggest hurdle is POJA. I have always let him do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and he is having a hard time having to think about an agreement with me or how his activities make me feel. But I am also guilty of telling him it is ok when it really bothers me because I'm making another sacrifice. I have to resist that, which has been hard for me. I always believed in unconditional love and have been reading on MB about how this is faulty thinking and sets a relationship up for trouble. I'm just so glad we found MB and can work through these issues.

I am also glad I put a stop to his relationship with the other woman before it went too far. I see on the Recovery board how quickly things can go from an opposite sex "friend" to an EA and then a PA and it just scares me to think they were headed down that pathway. From the texts that I read she was definitely in and EA with him, he just wasn't quite there yet (or so he says). So sad. One question I have that maybe would be for the AR board is how to you let go of that?

The thing is, this was going on when I was hospitalized after an outpatient surgery went wrong and I almost died. I needed a second surgery to stop the bleeding, then two transfusions and all the while she was texting him and asking him how he was doing. Also, the Friday before the surgery, I read a text that he had deleted with her but I recovered from jailbreaking his phone that read, "Yeah. Fine. Too much on mind and not enough alcohol." And she said, "Teehee, get a drink on". I was not home this night. He deleted all these texts from his phone as they were not on there when I first discovered this relationship. The way I discovered the relationship was that he went to sleep after midnight and I stayed up with his brother and sis in law and my teens. We were visiting his brother's family for New Year's. When I came up to our room at 12:45 am, he was sound asleep but his cell phone was pinging a text came in. I read it from her, wishing him a happy new year. Well at that point I went back and read all the text history and it only went back to November, but my surgery was in November and those that went on when i was in the hospital were not there. Yet he says he never deleted anything and never felt anything more than a close friendship with her (a friendship that he never told me about). So anyway, how do I get over this when I don't believe him? And where do I go from here. As of now, I'm just stuffing these questions and this doubt down. Just unsure how to move on from this.

Thanks,
TinT

Is the OW married? If she is her BH needs to know about there EA.

You need to snoop to verify if NC is really NC. He needs to write her A NC letter.
NC letter samples

I would hit notify and have the MODS move this to the SAA board.

Okay I hit notify and asked it to be moved.

Because he was paying her to be his mentor, he wrote her an email, which I approved, that asked her to stop using text to contact him and only contact him via work email or work phone. She never replied to that email and she has never texted him again. About 3 weeks later, she dropped out of the program that she was associated with and moved to another program. She never told him she was stopping his mentorship. She just ended it. I told him if he received any emails or contact from her, he is to tell me. I saw that an email came in about a week ago that appears to be a mass send out to all the associates of the company inviting them to participate in another type business building program. He never told me about this emal. It is "harmless" but the fact that he didn't tell me he got this "harmless" email still makes me unhappy as it is not what he agreed to do.

Do you think at this point I should reveal this to her husband? Yes they have been married 8 years as I found their marriage certificate online and have his name. I also have their home address, but they live in a city 5 hours away and she travels. Any ideas how to find a person's email address? I can't find it online. But why now? It appears to have ended and my husband claims to this day that he never felt anything more than friendship with her.

I just don't want to LB him by continuing to bring this up. Help!

Oh yes her BH needs to be told here Exposure 101

Why now? Because her BH needs to know what she was lying about his life and marriage.

Of course he told he didn't feel anything for her to spare your feelings.

Also check this out Operation Investigate to find out her info.

He wasn't O&H about that email and that should be a
Do you have her BH phone number to call him?

If you have his name and city, Facebook is your best bet for electronic communication. You should also be able to get a phone number with the same info. 5 minutes should get you an open door to contact him and let him know what went on.

hi TinT. i had a similar problem to yours, particularly the IB. my H had also been doing what he wanted when he wanted for years. without MB, i didn't realise how much danger this put our relationship in, as i was also benefiting from the IB with my own IB. what wasn't benefiting was our marriage! my H also ended up in a texting sitch where he was getting ENs met from someone else (admiration). during this time, we were also counselling with SH! felt like hitting my head on a brick wall.

i had to take the radical step of plan b (after plan a). the result was a H with a completely different mind set. losing me and the M had the effect of electro-shock therapy! like your H, he thought i would never leave; consequently, he simply carried on w/the behaviour (my H also thought chores were UA time - grrr, how unsatisfying!). also, putting him out, rather than me leaving, supported the idea of "this is life without our marriage." he had to be the one who was uncomfortable, you know what i mean?

if your H is not putting you, his beloved wife, ahead of everything else, you may also need to do this. it is, at least, something you should read/think about.

Thanks for the replies. I approached H about the email and he said that since it was to a group of people and not just him that he didn't see that he needed to tell me about it. I told him that when I was scrolling through his email and saw her name that there was a bit of panic that I felt since he hadn't told me about the email and because I saw her name. I literally stuck to just casually expressing my feelings (big step for me) and keeping it calm. He said the above and then said, "you have no reason to feel panic because I have never had and affair with her or any other woman." I told him that wasn't true. That what he did was an EA. he still holds fast that he had no feelings for her so I wasn't an affair. Well he was flirting, he shared stuff about me and our family, and he got his admiration need fulfilled and also stopped talking to me at all during the time he was in contact with her. I think that makes it an EA.

Well excuse me, but I wanted validation, not him repeating again that he never had an affair. Wish he would have given me some validation. Since he didn't, ie decided to secretly ramp up my investigation of him. Until I get more info, I am going to hold off on more exposure so I won't trickle expose. I can't do anything until Monday because he's actuall going to spend time with me!

Thanks,
TinT

But...if SF (sexual fulfillment) is a top need for BOTH of you, why are you only engaging in it every few weeks? Why aren't you making time for this daily, or at least every other day? It doesn't make sense to withhold a top EN like this.

I agree. I am trying to plan A him. Meet his EN fully and avoid LB. We have enjoyed SF three times this week. Things are going well at the moment although we have been laying sod all day while trying to entertain 3 kids as well, which is hard work and not fun. But we are really doing better at POJA regarding some of the projects when normally he would just do his own thing and I would either be left out or try to help and do it "wrong". So all of that has been nice today. Now if we could just get a date tonight!

Thanks so much!

I decided to have a discussion with my husband about limitations we should practice with persons of the opposite sex. I discussed with him that I feel that we should really limit texting with people of the opposite sex to avoid what happened to him this past year. H has his own office with two women and a man working for him. One of the women who work for him is high energy and chatty and I noticed when he was interested in hiring her last year he also texted with her in an overly friendly way. He says it is okay for him to text her because (unlike the other woman who i didn't know) I know her. Well after reading the boards I know that even if I know her, there could still be a risk, especially if he claims he has no idea how the other relationship turned inappropriate. I told him that he has a boundary issue with these women and that we need to agree on some rules to put into place to prevent what happened before. He seemed very irriated by this and didn't say much at all. Then he changed the subject.

What are some normal limits that people have in their marriages to protect them from EAs or PAs? Like I said a few a weeks ago, I used to give him unlimited freedom to talk with and lunch with whoever he liked. I never knew what he did or where he was while he was away at work and he's pretty much always owned his own business. (How stupid am I?) I just want to be sure I'm not seeming to be contolling and wonder what would be considered reasonable limits.

Thanks,
TinT

PS. I'm going shopping for a VAR for his car today

Both of you should not be texting anyone of the opposite sex unless it's a blood relative.

Have you read this by Dr. Harley? Are Friends A Threat to your marriage

Boundaries and EP's should include " no opposite sex .....anything"

I would be very Leary of him texting other women.

Please listen to this radio clip on opposite sex friendships.
Radio clip on opposite sex friendships

Well guess what! Joyce called me and I'll be on the radio show today! So nervous but so excited for some expert insight!

That is great. I will be listening and sending support your way.

Thanks I'm very nervous!

I was on the show and was a bit nervous too but Joyce and Bill are so friendly and helped me feel at ease. They also offer follow up care (in the form of emailing afterwards letting them know how things are going) and great advice.

Dear TrblInTX and Forum Readers,

I have a similar situation. I am hesitant to post. My story exposes details and I would be afraid.

PeaceAndPolarity

It's always possible to post without providing details that would identify you. We all do it.

Please start a new thread if you wish to get help. Welcome to MB.

trb, my H is must not have any females (except my relatives) on his fb page. he may not text females unless work (he has his own business) related. these are just 2 of his EPs. verify, verify, verify! put some spyware on his phone so you can see any messages, even if deleted. do NOT accept any deviation from your marriage EPs. my H knows that the consequences for breaking EPs is plan D. there is no wriggle room. i would not tolerate any chatty messages. plan B got him w/the programme.

trb, it doesn't sound like your husband is on board. what is your plan to get him to do so?

Peace,

I really think you should post your story! You'll get the help you need and don't have to give any details or you can even change them. You'll feel so much better when you do and can get the help you need.

TinT

I don't even know where to start. I need to figure it out and help myself! I guess I just feel like my situation isn't as bad as some of the stories on here so I am dragging my feet for some reason.

I tried to call him to talk to him at work about being on the radio program and he said he is in meetings and can't talk. He was on a conference call and told me that via text. Then when he could tell I was upset that he couldn't even take a moment to talk to me he went off on me via email saying things like I can't expect him to drop everything for him every single time I need to talk. He said, " Am I to be expected to be able to drop everything and anything I am doing throughout the day to talk when you are ready."

Well first of all, I rarely ask to talk to him and just wanted to be open and honest about being on the program. It was a complete surprise. But secondly, I know that the MB program says that if I did need to talk, he should make an effort to try. Well then he tries to call me when he knows I'm picking up our kids at school. So now it looks like he's trying but his hurtful comments are not going to fly. HELP!!!

TinT

Trouble in Texas ... man I could have said the exact same thing about my WH's EA ... now I am being divorced by my WH so he can pursue his whore legitamately.

My WH's progression into hell is getting worse and worse as time keeps ticking. He is now rarely seeing our children.

When it comes to EAs or PAs think of the worst happening and prepare for it ... until he stops being wayward he WILL continuously self destruct and take you and your children with him.

Remember his love for his whore is greater than his love for you. She will trump you on his decisions ... and yes he will throw you continuously under the bus because in the end he is nothing but a fogged out addicted wayward whose EXTREMELY intoxicating whore is his drug and she at this time in his life is the most important thing he eats, breathes, and thinks about.

Does anyone have a link to an article or radio show archive where Dr. Harley discusses contact with your wife while at work?

I don't but just finished listening to your radio show.

I would go to him tonight and tell him he has 24 hours to write the No Contact letter as in SAA, and you will send it certified mail on Wednesday to her. I would add in the NC letter she comes near your husband or your family is threatening and you will get a restraining order against her.

Next I would jump into Plan A. Prepare for Plan B ... make him your extraordinary precautions list, and tell him to remain married means you both will build trust and he can earn his by following these EPs.

trblintx,

Did you do what the Harley's suggested?

Here are some of the articles they were talking about.

Are Friend's a Threat to Your Marriage
Snooping: Is it wrong? Or, is it the right thing to do in your Marriage?
Coping with Infidelity: Beginning How do Affairs Begin
Honesty and Openness Part 2

Thank you for the articles. I emailed them to H last night. Here is how yesterday unfolded.

H was too busy in meetings at work to talk to me so I couldn't tell him how I ended up on the radio. We have the 3 kids so telling him at home after work and then trying to get him to listen to my segment would have delayed our discussions until at 9pm and we are just no good at discussing things that late. So I told him I would meet him at his office so DD could babysit and we could talk uninterrupted.

I brought him a plate of dinner since it was 6 pm and we talked briefly and unsuccessfuly about him only talking to me at work when he feels like it. You see, his business has always been #1 for him (he always says it has to grow for me and the kids). There was a time when he would work 80 hours a week and we wouldn't talk all day and he really expects to be in complete control of when he talks to me. He is so bad about thinking about me while at work that last month I discovered the reason he would text me at 11 am and 3 pm was due to an alarm he set. We didn't come to an agreement on the fact that if there is something i feel I need to tell him, that he should want to listen. I have rarely interrupted a meeting/phone call with him and his beloved clients. It is ridiculous that he was so mean and harsh about this.

So I tell him how I ended up on the show and we listen. He sits there and writes down every single word of the program. He is fuming, I can tell, but he's (unsuccessfully) trying to hide this fact. I can see it. I ask him what is on his mind at the moment and I can tell he doesn't want to say anything. Finally he starts talking about how they are implying that he had a PA and accusing him of it and he feels like he is on trial for a crime he never committed (PA). Well I told him that yes it was clear that the Harleys came to the conclusion based on what unfolded when I discovered the truth. And that if I polled 100 people and told them the same facts, 99 of them would draw the same conclusion. So it was time to get the truth out. He swore again that he didn't have a PA with her or anyone, ever. He used some story about how he feels like he's on trial for murder when all he did was steal a tv. ?? I really want to believe him. I do.

I cried a lot. I need him to see what he has done to me. I have been Plan A-ing him a lot and just don't show that it bothers me. But him receiving that email and he not telling me shows me that he wasn't following my EP.

We discussed how with his business he will do anything possible to achieve his goals, yet he won't finish the LB book. How he will pay $600 a month for a "life coach" for his business and he won't pay for counselling with Harley or the home study course. It shows me his priority is and always has been his business and not us. I told him that the job should serve the marriage, the marriage shouldn't serve the job. I also told him that perhaps it would be best for him to stay at a hotel so he can have the time he needs to finish the book. He said maybe I should stay at a hotel. HA! I told him I will never leave the house, that he's the one that had the EA and he will be the one leaving. I won't leave our house. What the heck? I was suggesting he leave so he can have time to read. Give me a break. Wayword fog!

Thanks for listening to me babble. Here is what we accomplished last night:

1. Made a personal boundaries list
2. Gave him a deadline of next weeked to finish LB book
3. He agreed that he will have no contact with OP and to tell me when she contacts him
4. He has agreed to do anything I want to make this work (although I get the sense that it is lip service)

He has not agreed to contact MB radio show with is side of the story, but I'm going to encourage it.

I'll ask some questions in my nest post. Trying to entertain a 3 year old this morning....thank you for all your support. It really is nice having you all to help me work through this mess that is my life.

TinT

Here is the boundaries we came up with. (Mostly me and him agreeing)Please give me feedback as I could add more or change wording now if I want to. Thanks.


PERSONAL BOUNDARIES WHEN DEALING WITH PERSONS OF THE OPPOSITE SEX

5/8/2012

1) No personal friendships with members of the opposite sex unless family
2) Business relationships should be open and discussed
3) No texting with members of OS unless business related or after spousal agreement
4) No discussion of personal nature with members of opposite sex�..nothing too personal
5) Temptations should be openly discussed. Temptations mean there is something lacking.
6) Spouse should be told if person of OS is flirting with them

Here's our EPs...and there was no negotiation. This is what it took to keep me in our marriage.

1.) No contact ever again with Affair Partner
2.) Total Transparency:
a. Email passwords shared
b. Accounting for all time and money
c. Eliminate all social networking sites, except for shared FB account
3.) No communicating with a female in any other way than the necessary professional manner needed for work
4.) No intimate conversations with a female (no conversations about anything personal, such as likes, dislikes, marriage, music, etc)
5.) No flirting, no inappropriate conversations or jesting. No �boobs or butts� comments ever.
6.) No terms of endearment of any kind, except for those in our immediate family.
7.) No business mentoring with a woman.
8.) Women must be at least an arm's length away.
9.) No porn, no �adult� clubs or shops, no chat rooms
10.) No nights apart.
11.) No recreational activities with the opposite sex.
12.) No interactive online games.

My FWH was always very friendly with women and developed increasingly sloppy boundaries over the years.

I thought that being a good wife to him was enough. It's not--the boundaries ALSO must be very tight to protect the marriage. Love banks must be securely closed, clamped shut against all other potential "depositors."

In short, my H continued to flirt over the years and allowed himself to become entangled several times, the last one leading to a full-blown physical affair that was devastating.

My H did grumble at first over these EPs, but these were non-negotiable. In time, he has become amenable to the thought of my checking his emails when I want. He says it actually really helps him to pay attention to how he communicates with women.

Your EP #5--it's natural to feel attraction to a member of the opposite sex. He should immediately let you know and then limit the interaction with that person.

Your EP #4--In my opinion, it's too weak. You need to state what's personal and then your H needs to learn to limit his conversations with women to only non-personal stuff.

The other thing we have done is to come up with scenarios; what-if situations: such as what if you're at work and an associate comes into your office distraught over some personal difficulty. What would you do? Then we come up with solutions.

The above are boundaries for dealing with persons of the opposite sex only.

I guess I need to lay out the EP's. Before I found MB I laid out some things in an email to help him regain my trust. I will dig those up and make them into a document with everyone's feedback and then send them to him.

I emailed him a summary of what was discussed last night (like his female life coach does for him after their phone calls), and he emailed this back to me: "Thanks for sending. Raw is a good term. Feeling pretty low and quite frankly this morning not really feeling very optimistic. Radical honesty. I want to just leave but am fully committed to work through this and be the husband you deserve."

What is your take on this?

Listen to these radio clips on a husband having an affair with his job.
Radio clip #1
Segment #2
Segment #3

I also agree you need to make his EP's tougher.

What did he say about MB coaching?

In response to him feeling like a criminal from your phone call with the Harleys you can say. "Honey they would love to hear your side of things so why don't you write them?"

He said he still thinks we are intelligent enough to work through the books and the "5 Steps" workbook we bought without the program. That's what he thinks.

I responded to his "just want to leave" email with this:

"Please tell me what it is that is making you want to just leave?"

Also he is having a mother's day luncheon today for some of his clients. He invited me to go a last week and I thought it was to treat me to a neat lunch at the spa. Turns out, last night he told me "my clients will like me better once they meet you and interact with you. I need you there." The clients bring prospects to the luncheon as well and he won't be there. He just wants me there representing him. After his "just want to leave" comment I don't want to have anything to do with him.

I know it is radical honesty and we've never followed that practice so I'm supposed to react how? I feel it is a ploy to get me to back down from the list he agreed on last night. Help! I'm so weak!! I feel like a chicken with my head cut off or like I'm juggling 100 balls right now trying to figure out what to do. All I want is him to start earning my trust back!

Hi TinT. I heard you on the show and wanted to post to you because this is a re-run of my own FWH.

First thing. Don't ask him to leave. You need to Plan A and that is very hard when you are not living together.

Install GPS and VAR on car, keylogger on computer, and spyware on his phone. Waywards love secret phones so a VAR in the car is a great way to catch this. DO THIS BEFORE YOU EXPOSE.

Have you read ML "Exposure 101"? It is at the bottom of her sig.

Never underestimate the power of the addiction. Your WH cannot break this addiction on his own. Also NEVER underestimate the lengths that an OW will go to get back her addiction.

Don't try to rationalize with a wayward. All they hear is blah blah.

You can beat this TinT...but you have to be smarter than DH. If his lips are moving, he is lying. Trust only what you can verify.

Honesty is a GOOD thing, not something that should make us feel badly when we "have" to do it.

My take is one from personal experience:

My H also was very focused on pleasing himself for a long time in our marriage. (from your thread title) He confesses that freely now and is saddened by the long wasted years. He was very angry during many of those years, because he wanted the freedom to do what he pleased, without having to consider me. He was often depressed, because what he was doing was depressing for him. Dishonesty doesn't make a person feel too great about oneself.

So now? Fast forward to our 32nd year of marriage. He says he deeply regrets all those years of being what he calls a "crappy" husband. He is embarrassed by that. We finally have a great marriage. He is affectionate and caring and, in turn, I happily meet his needs for SF and RC. He often jokes that he is "addicted" to me.

There is no way we could have gotten to this place without his agreement to use POJA and Radical Honesty going forward, without his adopting of the EPs, without his commitment to building a romantic and safe marriage with me.

The tragedy is that it took a full blown adultery and betrayal and almost losing me to see the truth.

I am very concerned that your H is the one feeling "raw" by your requirements for a safe marraige and by your hurt. I listened to your conversation with the Harleys a couple of times this morning. There is nothing in your conversation with them for your H to be defensive about. The Harleys have seen it all and know that it takes a lot of little steps to get to adultery. Best to not take those little steps in the first place.

Sure, maybe it was "only" an EA, but that's exactly the kind of thing my H did quite frequently. It always hurt me deeply, but he didn't care enough about me or our marriage to stop it or protect our marriage. It was fun being admired by other women to whom he owed nothing. There are plenty of predatory women who are looking for a married man to hook up with.

Listen, if I'd had MB all those years ago, I would have required the POJA and Radical Honesty as well as EPs from the first infidelity onward. Either my H would have left me at this requirement, and I would have moved on without him, or he would have built a good marriage with me. What we did instead was to stay married but with no marital protections. I was naive and trusted him when he hadn't earned it.

Don't back down on your requirements. Be loving but adamant that you want this marriage to be safe for you. That you want a romantic and passionate marriage with him.

Wait, this is not quite right. That puts the blame on the betrayed spouse to meet the wayward's needs "or else" they will be tempted and may have an affair.

That's not how it works.

Even in a fulfilling marriage, even when all emotional needs are met, it is still normal for many people, particularly men, to feel attracted to others of the opposite sex. That's why extraordinary precautions are so important. Being open about any such situations IS one of those precautions, but when those situations exist it does NOT mean that there is something "lacking" in the needs met by the spouse.

Comments like this make me cringe. If he is so gosh darn intellegent, then why is he taking a beautiful gift like a loving devoted wife and making her feel like crapola and destroying a marriage and family because of some silly EA? (if that's all it was...) I heard things like this from my WH. For years he thought MC was embarrassingly beneath us. When I originally asked for a poly he said it made him feel like he was on the Jerry Springer show (ie it was 'beneath us' or 'low class' I guess). Um, you being wayward is beneath us, not MC or the poly.

True recovery begins when there is humility IMO. When my WH got to the point where he looked in the mirror and realized HE and his wayward behavior was the disgusting and low class thing, nothing more, that is when he truly committed to work. At that point, he was too good for nothing. He needed, welcomed the help of MC/MB and he is eagerly wanting a poly, to earn my trust back.

What do you think? Do you agree with him?

It sounds like he thinks that his thinks should carry the day and your thinks should be ignored.

I would tell him you don't agree, that you don't think your marriage can survive this without getting through this program, and that you don't think you guys can get through the program without help.

Wow! Thank you for all the responses! I want to digest them and think about them and get back when the little one is napping. You guys are the best and are helping me get the courage to stand my ground and quit feeling like I'm being demanding. Thank you thank you thank you!

When I asked him what it was that made him want to just leave, here was his response:

"Just tired I guess and want to take path of least resistance. I want to just get over this and not put in the work.

Want the 6 pack without going on a diet.

Crazy I know. "

This is so frustrating and I can't even begin to respond respectfully!

Like I said, I need to digest all of this and get little one down for a nap before I can respond, but please keep them coming. I have also emailed the show again.

Thanks again, so much!
TinT

Oy-vey

You said:


May I suggest a non-verbal response.
You have 3 kids together.
Keep handy, at all times, a photo of all 3 kids.
Print dozens out.

When he speaks like a lazy-dumb-bum .... say:

"I know. Real life demands a lot of effort. I think real life is worth the effort."

Then, hand him one copy of the photo of your kids.

THEN WALK AWAY.
Not in anger.
Not sad.
"I'm going to the market. Do you have any special requests for dinner?"
Just walk away very relaxed.

Keep plenty of photos handy.
You will need them.

Plan A is NOT the path of "least resistance", is it?

I'm just thinking out loud here, but that doesn't sound like the kind of highly motivated person who gets through the Marriage Builders program with the books alone and no professional assistance.

He doesn't yet understand that all this "work" could have terrific results. You and he could get this marriage together and have a wonderful rewarding relationship that meets both your needs and is fulfilling and passionate.

A good marriage is really not a lot of work. Dr. Harley says in his audio series that the work comes in learning new habits. After that, it's keeping up the habits until they become a way of life.

My H sometimes still says he wishes we'd had MB from the beginning. MB not only makes for a great marriage; it helps us become better people.

And good for you for keeping this up. I know it must be emotionally exhausting to deal with this and take care of your children. Your H just doesn't see the rewards yet--that it's possible to be romantically in love with your spouse and to have the needs met within a warm loving and SAFE marriage.

He is saying:

I just reread over your thread TinT and a couple things jumped out at me.

Did you ever expose to the OW's BH? I suspect, with her seemingly quick and out of the blue departure to her job/your WH, that once the email was sent she panicked by the fact that you MIGHT tell her BH and she would also feel the reprecussions of her wayward behavior. So....you should make sure to do this. OK not just to give her reprecussions for messin with your man, but also because her BH has a right to know! There are so many people out there ready to step in and ruin a marriage, or be a part of betraying a spouse. At the very least the BS's should stand united in a quest to support each other for pete's sake, and that starts by exposing what we know to each other. I know when I was the BLIND spouse I would have wanted to know what was going on. I would have wanted to know the truth about my life, and would have wanted the opportunity to make a choice about what was going to happen with it.

Did you ever ask your WH about the weekend in Las Vegas with the OW? Are you positive that there was NOT a PA going on, or is that lurking in your mind? I feel like recovery is not really underway if there are still lurking questions in your mind, whether you have all the cards on the table. If it IS still lurking and/or you have ANY reason to suspect there is more to know, make one of your requirements that your WH take a poly. If he wants to regain your trust, he will do so willingly. If he still has secrets he will not.

I have read several things in your thread that make me feel like you feel like you are being bossy, controlling, and demanding to ask these things of your WH. Things like "feel like we should limit texting to people of the opposite sex" Do you really not want to ELIMINATE texting to people of the opposite sex for him, given the fact that he was having a texting EA with a work related person? My WH, along with MANY WS's on these boards probably, is in a professional career where he works with many women, NONE of whom he is ever going to send a text to. "I used to GIVE HIM freedom..." and "I want to make sure I'm not seeming to be controlling..."

I understand your hesitation about this. For a long long time I thought I was the 'cool wife' who gave my WH LOADS of freedom, to travel for work with no wife calling him to check in, to do his hobbies whenever he wanted to, etc. How cool was I! I looked down on women who had to be involved in everything their H's did, how controlling! I look at this through completely different glasses now. Protecting your marriage and your vows, protecting your spouse from making bad choices or protecting yourself from making bad choices is not controlling, NOT doing that is not any more cool than sending your spouse to walk across a busy 10 lane highway. You have to stop thinking about EP's as you being controlling and demanding of your WH. You are requiring things for your marriage, and protecting it from harm. Would you want one of your children to require a mate that worked with her as one, treated her with respect, protected her and her marriage? Or would you tell them that is controlling, to expect their spouse to protect them and/or to protect their spouse and marriage from harm?

You are doing the right thing. You are approaching your WH with a loving resolution to the problems in your marriage by offering the MB program. You are, in the midst of feeling betrayed by his EA, willing to work diligently to create a marriage that is more amazing then ever before. You are NOT being controlling or demanding.

Also, when he argues about the EA. I have been wayward too, have never had a PA but had many male friendships and a revenge EA that was sexual in nature. I have also had to, through our recovery, really take a long hard look in the mirror about my major lack of boundaries. I thought that since I had PHYSICAL boundaries with men, and although I was flirtatious I also had boundaries when it came to any sexual talk (until the RA anyway), that I just had a lot of male 'friends' and it was all ok. One of the things that turned my thinking around on that is to always ask myself how I would feel if my H was doing the exact same thing. If YOU had a 'friend' that you had long text conversations with, which were flirtatious, and had spent a weekend out of town with even, would your WH think differently about it then? Have you ever turned it around on him? I am guessing he would NOT be OK with you having a 'friend' like that and would NOT be ok with you saying it was no big deal.

PS Sorry for the long post! Apparently, I am chatty today.

Hi TinT,
I have read your thread and listened to your segment. I thought I would share my story with you because there are some similarities.

My WH also had "just an EA" that I discovered March 5. It involved online sexual encounters with women "only" (that I knew of at the time) and my WH also had trouble with independent behavior and POJA. When I attempted to go through the MB program with WH, he agreed to most things except a polygraph, saying that it was "degrading." I considered letting go of requiring the poly (because it was "just" an online affair) but it continued to bother me. Why wouldn't he take it? Did it mean he was lying? What if I was risking my marriage over a polygraph test?

He was reluctant to agree to POJA as well but eventually did and throughout our negotiations continued to beg me to go back to him. I decided to do Plan B with my condition to work on the marriage being him passing a poly. The first day of Plan B I found out about another completely separate infidelity and realized that he continued to be dishonest and what I found out is probably just the tip of the iceberg. No wonder why he refused the polygraph and grumbled about the other conditions.

My point in telling you my story is that I STRONGLY recommend that you do some serious detective style snooping. Do it for your marriage. Get the VAR and the keylogger like another poster suggested. The fact that your WH isn't 100% on board and happy to do anything you ask to regain your trust and rebuild your marriage is a red flag and indicates that he may be hiding more. You also DEFINITELY need to bring up the polygraph to confirm his story and also just see his reaction to being confronted with a device that may show he is lying. If he doesn't agree to the Poly -- HUGE red flag. I just don't believe that nothing physical happened between he and OW when they were in Las Vegas together.

Also the polygraph is the one thing that your WH can't just agree to in order to appease you and then blow it off. He could easily agree to all of your EPs, to read LB, and to give you the moon for that matter without any intention of following through on any of it. The polygraph will be scheduled and he either does it or he doesn't do it, there's no fudging on that.

Here is your call, so others can listen.
Radio clip of TinT's call
Segment #2

wow, tnt i'm listening to your radio clip right now, and can't believe how similar your situation is to mine! have you read my thread? it may be of some help to you. it's in my sig line.

Thanks again everyone.

We had another rough, rough day yesterday. The comments I posted on here were just the beginning. I cried so much yesterday. I am hurting so badly.

I emailed Dr. H back in the morning to ask for more help and he replied within 15 minutes. I am still really shocked he was so available. He told me the fact of the matter is not as much the texts, but the fact that he doesn't follow the practice of "don't do anything that upsets your spouse" and that H doesn't follow this principle. He said, " If, however, a spouse feels that marriage should not keep one spouse from doing what they please regardless of how it affects the other person (which is a common belief these days), the marriage is doomed to failure." Well, that is really what all the trouble boils down to. He tends to do whatever he wants without regard to how his actions make me feel. This is probably the root of long term problems.

So I forwarded the email thread to the H and heard back from him right about the time I got home from picking up my older kids from school. I wish I could post it here, but it would reveal a lot of personal information. What he said cut me to the core. He said again that he wants this hurt for him to end and he even said he almost packed a bag this morning and left. He said the only thing keeping him here was the scarring memory of his Dad doing the same thing to him when he was our kids' exact age. So nice to know he is only staying for the kids.

He also used this line: "Read HNHN again�..people have affairs for one reason�someone else is fulfilling a person�s needs when their spouse is not. " Ouch. So him chosing to have the EA is my fault in his mind. Justified. I need to give a little history, just to keep you all in mind of the timeline I discovered.

8/22/11-I had an ovarian cyst rupture. Tried to get ahold of him for two hours and he didn't respond so a friend had to be called to take me to the hospital. Extremely painful and i went through that with a 3 year old in tow.
8/23/11-next day. He goes to a nearby city for a "workshop" in which other person was there and then during the session he texted with her for 2 hours straight. Then comes home and screams orders at me, is mean, and nasty. I saved an email I sent him regarding the fact that I was in extreme pain and he didn't even care for me and came home mean and nasty. , Also flirted with another woman while I was home alone and almost called 911 to go back to hospital due to extreme pain and vomitting from the pain. My doc says I need a hyst right away but H asks me to delay it to week of Thanksgiving so he won't miss any work. For next couple of months I am in pain every 2 weeks. He continues attacking me verbally and being unsympathetic. His texting ramps up. Not sexual in nature,but flirting, joking, even cussing in the "mentor" texts.
11/211 Have surgery but have a complication and had internal bleeding.
11/22 I have to go back to surgery to stop bleeding. Doc states I almost died. texts come in from OP.
11/23 Received two blood transfusions, more texts, "Oh H, are you okay?" Husband sits on couch, gives me little or no attention as the days go on. I was in hospital for an outpatient surgery for 5 days. The recovery took about 3 weeks, which completely shocked the doc. He thought it would take me 6-8 to bounce back. I was left alone in the bedroom the day after got home. He took the kids to a movie and left me there in the bedroom with no food or water for 6 hours. He needed to "reconnect with the kids".
1/1/12-12:40am, text comes into his phone from OP while he slept. He turned down my offers for SF on New Year's Eve and went to bed. When I came to bed later I saw his phone lighting up with a text from his "mentor" wishing him a happy new year. Scrolled back to November and read texts, panic ensued, I figured out a way to email them to my phone then deleted the emails and removed them from his trash so he wouldn't know. Happy New Year to me. My world as I knew it swept away. I snooped on him for 3 weeks before I couldn't stand it anymore and thought they would take it physical and approached him about it.

He got further and further away from me after this time after my surgery. The week after I got out of the hospital. Yet he blames ME for his affair because I didn't meet his needs. Tell me how I am supposed to meet his needs when I'm dying. I think this is what caused the bulk of my problem with him, was discovering this all ramped up when I was in the worst condition of my life. I am rarely sick like this. The only other times I had health issues was during the pregnancy of our DS3.

His email yesterday also stated his position on the boundaries that we had put into place and I shared on here, "My position on the boundaries��I will do whatever helps you move past this and to build your trust in me again so have no issue with the rules we set up last night. I do think though that as long as we are fulfilling each other�s needs that they don�t concern me. I will trust that as long as I make you happy and your Love Bank for me is full that you won�t have any kind of inappropriate relationship with another person and vice versa." Again, in complete fog about the risks he puts us in and doesn't give a darn if it bothers me.

So anyway, I replied as nicely as I could to his email. I talk about that in the next post.

This is not entirely true.

It was his choice.

It's about his lack of boundaries around women.

I do believe you need to clean up your side of the street. You are responsible for 50% of the demise of your M, but he is 100% responsible for his affair.

So I think you need to concentrate on what Dr. H said.

Can you feel safe in this M if he continues to do this?

I do not feel safe. I taking my 3 yo to school today then coming home and trying to think. Having 3 kids really limits how much I can really figure out what I want to do. I do agree that my side of the street needs to be cleaned and when I recognized the affair, I did just that. We are supposed to work through the LB book, but it has taken him 6 weeks to read it. He is dragging his feet.

When I am alone my plan is to get a VAR and see if there is a keylogger I can put on a work computer and not be detected. Then I am making my list of EP and sending him those. He knows they are coming. He hasn't read much of any of MB so he doesn't seem to know what they are.

Then I'm going to plan for Plan B.

And yes I have skipped exposure. The only people I have exposed to are my best friend and her husband and my two older kids. I have not told my parents because my dad has just been diagnosed with cancer and has been ill and haven't told his parents or the OP's spouse. I only have a phone number and address for him and not sure OP wouldn't intercept it.

I am a wreck and feeling awful. I too want this to end. I can't take much more of it and am failing at Plan A because I just want to withdraw. I know this is wrong.

Have you read these?
When to call it quits part 1
When to call it quits part 2
When to call it quits part 3

Ok so you need a plan and MB can give you that.

You need to do a rockstar Plan A while you expose and prepare for Plan B. Three weeks top. I think you've been in it far too long. We have another poster whom is a SAHM and pregnant and has 2 under 4 and she just went into Plan B. It can happen and we can help you.

Exposure 101
Carrot and Stick of Plan A

If you have his address why don't you go there and tell him?That's what I did.

Have you tried this?
Trying to figure out identity

TinT. At the same time, your own needs were not being met by your WH...yet you did not have an affair. Ignore the fog babble.

The biggest mistake I made was not to install the spyware. Don't make the same mistake I made. Do this BEFORE exposure.

This worries me that he is talking about leaving over a MC session.

The OP lives 5 hours away. The OP travels frequently and comes to our area to mentor her people in her territory. Or I should say she did. H just told me he heard on a conference call that after she left the mentorship program that brought she and my H together, she is now hired on for another franchisee with the company and doing what my H did and she is now a marketing person for this franchisee in their city 5 hours away. H says this new development should not mean that they should have any contact. So to reveal to him in person would be hard. Now my DD is in a sports tournament in this city the first weekend of June, so I will be in that town, but I don't see how I could do anything with her there with me. Or maybe I could. If I send something certified mail to him, would the OP be able to intercept it and read it.

Also, my fear about exposing to the OP's H is that it will prompt her to contact H again and go off on him and this would make him very mad at me and we would have a major setback. I'm scared to do this. I think he'll pack it in then for sure, shut down. He hasn't had any contact with her since 2/22 when I told him to send a letter to her to not text him or contact him via cell phone and change to relationship to strickly business. She never replied to the email. Even though she was still being paid as his mentor she quit calling and mentoring. Then she dropped out (quit) before the program completed. I consider this a red flag since it ended this way.

I am considering going ahead and telling my parents because since this has unfolded I really haven't talked to them a lot because I don't want them to know something is seriously wrong with me/us. I also am protecting them from pain since Dad is so ill with cancer. What a mess. I also do want his parents to know, but am afraid he'll turn it on me like his does in his mind and it will cause them to dislike me.

Please help me fully understand why at this point I should expose.

I think you are right and I hope I can find a way to get alone so I can do this. Also have to do my research. I want to put a VAR in the car and I want to put a keylogger on his work laptop. I need to find a program that won't be detected by his work security system. He is in a business that I'm wondering if that is even legal since I would then have access to bank account numbers and personal info on his clients. I snooped last night and his history was cleared. What does that mean? Are there work programs for internet explorer that automatically clear histories for confidentiality reasons? Just wondering. His computer has an operating system put into place by the company he is franchised with. Don't want to break any laws here.

Thanks!

TinT. Personally, I would focus on getting the spyware installed and see what pops up. Men don't just leave because you want establish boundaries to protect your marriage from affairs.

Your WH stated it himself...it happened because he let someone else meet his needs. EP's set up boundaries to prevent this exact thing from happening.

There may be a different OW or it may be the same one...you need to find out what is going on before you can fight it.

Read this Operation Investigate

There's a thread on deleting history and VAR and everything.

Another question: Should I expose to the two women and man that work for him in his office? They all knew and dealt with the OP when she was his mentor.

You've read this, correct? Exposure 101

It has workplace exposure letters and direction.

This was a workplace affair and so yes they need to he aware. If she is working at the same company he may need to get a new job.

Yes this needs to be exposed because her BH has a right to know. Dr. Harley says it doesn't matter if affair was in past exposure is a must to help give the WS accountability.

Did you see this?

Have you checked his cell phone records to see if there's a new number for anyone else?

I have read both Exposure 101 and Operation Investigate, but I've also read about 50 other pages on here so I'm having a really hard time keeping it all straight.

I check his cell phone record every day. He only texts me, my DD and DH, a few other scoutmasters, and his marketing employee. When I see some texts from her number, I go to his phone and read it to be sure A. None have been deleted, and B. they are keeping it strictly business. I've decided that one of my EP's will be no more texting with persons of the opposite sex and no clearing of the histories on ipad, iphone, and laptops. Still working on it.

Trying to find out if the OP's H has a facebook. I think I may have found him, but can't tell. What is your suggestion for contacting him to find out if he is married to OP?

Are you saying you don't know if OW is married or not?

Did you find her on Facebook? If you do find her copy and paste her contacts into a word document to save for later.

You can do that intellus.com check to find out if she's married or not. Then you would need to expose to him.

No what I meant is that his (spouse of OP) profile is private. Yes the OP is married. I saw the list of his FB contacts and many of them are from the city he lives in, but I have no way of knowing if this guy is her husband. His profile pic is of a deer. Only in Texas. Hahaha

I cannot see that she (OP) has a facebook. She doesn't have a Myspace or a LinkedIn either that I can find. Odd, I think.

So my question is, can I somehow send him a facebook message to inquire if he is in fact married to the mentor and he is the right guy to expose to? Should I?

Well a little update. My husband has started to schedule himself off for lunch for 2 hours once a week to come home so we can have UA while DS3 is at pre-school. He came home today.

He is almost done reading LB and has already initiated conversation about the areas where he has exhibitied independent behaviour regarding his work schedule: It is flexible and in the past he has never asked for my feedback about when/how long he works. It has gone way down from the 70-80 hours he has worked in the past. He also wants to discuss finances with me and include me in our plan to reduce the tremendous amount of debt he incurred without my knowledge, and just bills and money flow in general. In the past he has done it all and told me, "don't worry about it." These are good things. He seems truly self motivated to make the changes necessary to continue the marriage. He said that he thinks that using the MB principles we will be able to make the changes we both need to be better spouses and people and happier than we have ever been.

I feel that for the first time he is being sincere. I can tell very easily when he isn't on board with something I want and I truly believe that he is on board. Please tell me it is okay to feel good about this.

TinT

I am still going to make my list of EPs for him. I want to hold him accountable. I want him to see them written down. Now to do them and get your feedback.

That is a good sign. However, don't abandon any of your previous plan. You should still get the VAR and keylogger and yes, still require your EPs and make sure he is following them.

Thanks for the laugh Markos! I agree totally! Has anyone done the MB Online program and turned their marriage around than can tell me their experience with it?

It is so nice to hear that this can turn around. I really want him to step up and do what needs to be done. I really think he can do it. I am going to try to follow this advice, to be loving but adamant that the marriage must be safe for me. And I do believe we can have a romantic and passionate marriage with him. This time, I'm not going to sacrifice my feelings for him. I will not do that anymore and it has done a disservice to our marriage. So thanks for the support and encouragement!

Ok I feel like a majorly mischievous person, but I created a fake email and a fake facebook page and used it to send the OP BH a message asking him if he is married to OP. We'll see if he responds. If he is, then I can expose via facebook message.

Please evaluate and comment on the below Extraordinary Precautions. Thanks in advance for your help!!

Extraordinary Precautions

I want to have a romantic, loving, SAFE marriage and I won�t stay in a loveless marriage. I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness. I want our marriage to last a lifetime! In order for our marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take to keep our marriage safe for me, help me recover, and earn back my trust:

1.) No contact for life with EA partner�block email address and remove her from your contacts lists at work and on phone.
2.) Total Transparency:
a. Email passwords shared
b. Accounting for all time and money
c. Passwords to all accounts and social media shared
3.) Commitment to Marriage Builders Program for life.
4.)Completion of �Five Steps to Romanic Love� workbook with W by June 15.
5.)Read book Surviving an Affair by June 15 and incorporate principles.
6.) No personal friendships with females
7.) No communicating with a female in any other way than the necessary professional manner needed for work
8.) No intimate conversations with a female. (no conversations about anything personal, such as likes, dislikes, marriage, music, weight loss, kid problems, family problems, health problems, etc) When a female tries to tell you these things, the Harleys say to respond, �You should be talking to my wife about this.� Draw spouse into conversation immediately and close it down.
9.) No flirting, no inappropriate conversations or jesting. No �boobs or butts� comments ever.
10.) No terms of endearment of any kind, except for those in our immediate family.
11.) No business mentoring with a woman.
12.) Women must be at least an arm's length away.
13.) No porn, no �adult� clubs or shops, �girlie shows�, no chat rooms
14.) No nights apart. Scout overnights limited to once per quarter.
15.) No going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle.

Be careful of trickle exposure.

You need to drop the exposure bomb all at once.

Dr. Harley only recommends 3 weeks of Plan A for BW.

You need to verify the affair is dead first.

No trickle exposure. Just getting my ducks in a row. The OW BH is a key person I want to expose this EA to. I hesitate to mail the letter to their home for fear that she intercepts it and covers herself. Looked at the sample letters and plan to tweak them for our situation, get it all laid out and go for the exposure to his family, mine, his employees, our close friends, all within hours.

Did the "possible" BH answer you?

Good that you will do the exposure all at once. I would put all your energy in finding her BH and family and then drop the bomb.

Then you can worry about the EP's and conditions if he chooses to recover. If not then you go to Plan B and in your Plan B letter you give him your conditions.

So how's your Plan A coming? I worry that you've been in Plan A too long.

It is very hard for me to want to expose him when he is doing everything in his power to save the marriage and meeting my conditions. I want to believe that it is because he will never again have an EA and he is truly sorry for his actions. We had an amazing night last night.

But then again, he has said he is staying for the kids, so I'm wondering if he is just kissing up for a few weeks and then he's going to slowly slip back to his old ways, like history has proven. By old ways, I mean leading an independent life that never considers what my feelings are and one in which he expects me to agree with all his decisions with a smile.

As I listen to MB radio and learn the concepts more and more, I know that exposure is the way to go for my own sake, and his, to get the truth out and to help others keep him accountable. But I think he will see exposure as an attempt to ruin him and his perfect reputation. I know this in my head. But I know it will swing us back to unhappy and I just can't take that.

My thought in not exposing him is this: I keep telling myself that the texts with her were not "that bad". There were never any texts about sex. It was always her flirting with him, complimenting him and him eating it up. I do know that he deleted some of them since he jailbroke his phone and much of what he jailbroke wasn't on his phone New Year's eve. But what I saw that night that I saw the New Year's text, which was Nov and Dec (with some deleted though) were never sexual. So I feel like maybe I'm just over reacting.

Yes I have been in Plan A a long time, too long. I didn't find out about Plan A/B until about the time of my first post. Before that I had been doing everything I could to save the marriage and meet his EN. So Plan A has basically been going on since Jan. It has been an emotional roller coaster the whole time and I really wish I had learned about the carrot and stick of Plan A then and done it that way. Exposure back then would have been so awesome! I could have slammed him hard and he deserved it. But since I didn't do it right from the beginning I am just unsure what to do. Perhaps I just need to call Harley and get a counselling session or two so he can help me figure out a correct Plan based on my messed up situation.

Would it be wrong to make exposure to friends, family, and the other person's family part of the EP? I just need a plan. Limbo is wearing me down. My brain hurts, Brainhurts!

If you've been listening to the radio show then you know the answer. You need to expose. What about OW's poor BH?

Doesn't he have the right to know? Your EP's would not include exposure because you would do it before. EP's come after if he chooses to join you in recovery.

Your struggling because you're enabling his affair to start again. We call that Plan C which is not Marriage Builders.

Also read this thread BS's Plan C is not a MB plan

Listen to the radio clips I posted at the end of Dr. Harley talking about Plan C.

We've had posters whom also had affairs found out 15 years after the fact and they still exposed to the BS. Yours was just a few months ago.

Like Dr. Harley said your WH has a problem making you feel safe in your M. Exposure will help him "take responsibility" for his poor actions.

If he doesn't affair proof his M now he will repeat his poor behavior. Exposure will help him with this.

I am so broken right now. Afer a wonderful night of plan A and getting some needs met, I texted him and asked him when he was planning to respond to Dr. H. After going around with him, me stating my needs and my hurt, he says, I'll do it, but I don't think it will help and don't understand how going on a radio show will help our situation. So he will do it but doesn't agree to it. So basically he calls this a selfish demand and says he doesn't have to. So I tell him I love him very much, but this is hurting me and I need a safe marriage and cannot endure pain. He says he doesn't want to hurt me. Why doesn't he want to jump hurdles to fix this? Why won't he do this for me? I'm so heartbroken, again. When does this pain end? I have no Plan B!

If you won't hold him fully accountable (ie. hide his affair, including from the other betrayed spouse), then you certainly can't expect him to do the same.

You understand that "Plan C" for a wayward spouse means sweeping it under the rug and doing minimal effort to keep you quiet without facing true consequences?

You are not "broken" yet, but you will be when you endure false recovery.

This pain will keep happening until you follow a plan. You have only done the carrot of Plan A with no stick(exposure).

You've been in a semi Plan A for too long.

You need to expose
You need to stop all lovebusters and do a killer Plan A while you prepare for Plan B

We've had SAHM do a Plan B. You can do this if you follow the plans.

Feelings follow actions.

I would start your Plan B letter and get an IM prepared.

Here are the links
Carrot and Stick of Plan A
How to Plan B properly
Plan B letter samples
IM Training School

Any progress with investigations? Did you look into getting a keylogger or VAR?

She already knows who the OW is and I'm afraid she's not going to expose and make sure the BH of OW knows.

TinT are you there?

I appreciate your help, support, and tough love! I have been spending a lot of time digesting what you are telling me and trying to apply it to our situation.

My husband has finished the Love Busters book and instead of emailing the radio show, he has set up our first appointment with Steve Harley. This was a compromise that I feel will better benefit us long term as we can get an individual plan for recovery.

H has enthusiastically agreed to stop texting any person of the opposite sex due to the way it hurts me.

He has shown complete openness and honesty to all of my requests for extraordinary precautions and for the first time, I really feel I have broken through and he has seen the effect of his behavior on our marriage and the pain and suffering I have endured. The texting was just a small fraction of the dysfuction we had in our marriage. The main problem we have is that he does not "invite me into all the rooms of his house". He keeps me in one room of his house, the marriage room, and locks me out of all the other rooms. YOu can find this in the Love Busters book and here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html. For the first time in 16 years, almost 17, our anniversary is this month, he has seen the impact of his destructive behavior on me. The problem is also that I have endured this behavior in silence, thinking that it made me a better wife. So my thinking and dealing it was flawed as well. Because I hid my true feelings from him (protector liar), he had no idea there was anything wrong.

Perhaps this is the wrong way of going about it, but I have brought up why we need to tell everyone about the affair and the neglect. He has ended all contact with this woman and I feel that doing it this way, exposing together, will help us move through this faster and united. He has come so far already and is fully on board with all the concepts and is already incorporating them. I am helping him by providing the feedback and the biggest hurdle he has to overcome is his independent behavior. My plan is to try to bring this up with Dr. H in our appt Wednesday and see if this is an option based on our individual situation.

A second reason for this approach is that Plan B is not an option for me because my daughter has her 9th surgery in less than a month. I cannot separate from him before this surgery. It would be too much for her to bare. She has had surgeries her whole life and even though I am holding him to every EP I have listed, I can't do that to her. My dad will be having surgery within a month as well.

My Plan A has been top notch. I have been working so hard to eliminate my DJs and AOs that are a reaction to his IB and controlling behavior. I am very proud of being able to control myself. I am also very proud of my ability to now use RH to address these behaviors without DJs. I think this was my biggest contribution to our failed marriage. I never used RH and because I am now, he is seeing how specific behaviors hurt me and he is making adjustments and changes.

My biggest fear at this point is A.) That he will lose his focus and settle back into his old style, and B.) That once he goes back I will then have to Plan B him. The biggest thing that needs to happen quickly is I need to get at least a part time job. He has asked me to come work for him in his office. I think that this will help integrate our lifestyles, but I'm afraid it will make it impossible to Plan B him in the future. My other option would be to go back to work in my past profession that I left 4 short years ago to raise our DS3.(if there is a position open) So this is the big decision I need to make. I think based on the fact that his second life was his job, me working with him would be a great EP to prevent future straying. It would also enable me to be involved in our family business and be with him more and understand him and his work more. The other woman gave him admiration and they were able to "talk shop" and that is what he enjoyed with her. By me stepping into this role, it could eliminate that risk factor. What do you all think of this possibility?

Again, thank you for your support. I couldn't have made it through this without you all there. Getting my EN met for the first time in a long time feels so good! I feel we are on the recovery road.

TinT

Really?
What do you think is WH's biggest fear?

I have some ideas, but would prefer you to figure out the answer yourself.

This is not a rhetorical question.
Please respond and answer the question.
Thanks.

So after all this TinT you still aren't going to expose to this poor unsuspecting BH of OW?

His biggest fear is that I walk away. He knows I should have a long time ago.

Yes he agrees that this guy needs to know. I still can't find an email for him and no reply from his facebook message. So I can't determine if the FB guy is actually the BS of OW.

Why isn't WH 110% committed to keeping your love bank overflowing?

Did you try running a report on her to find out who exactly her spouse is?

Did you try this on him? Trying to Figure out identity

TinT,

This is eerily familiar to a time in my own sitch. H had just trickle truthed me for about 6 months, and finally confessed to an EA with an old high school friend. That, he said, was the big confession. I had been reading about MB online, and together we had ordered the home course and had our first session with Steve. But...something wasn't sitting right in my gut. I just felt like I had failed to read the end of the book. There was a chapter missing.

I don't know about you, but I was NOT OK with not having read that last chapter. I listened to my gut. I refused to work the program with him until he could be completely and totally honest with me, and of course he told me up one side and down the other he WAS being honest.

Fast forward several more months, months where my resentment built and my love bank diminished...and I finally demanded a poly. And then, he confessed to a ONS.

Now, we are working the program, with all the cards on the table. I shudder to think of how it would have panned out had I bought into his initial seemingly committed attempt at working the program, knowing now that we would have been recovering a marriage based on lies, and that he was using the program to distract me from finding out the truths about his life.

Eerliy familiar to your story. Get the poly. Let me repeat, get the poly. If your H truly is committed to this program, and he truly has had his eyes opened about how his behavior has affected you, and he truly has remorse and wants to help you heal... he will WELCOME a poly. If not, well, thats your answer. Get the poly.

Here you go.
Polygraph Testing

Yes I ran that and found his business but still cannot find an email for the guy. His business address, like hers, is their home address. I know it is a home because I google mapped it and zoomed in and it is a house. The business phone listed is their home phone. Any advice on how to expose to him based on the home address?

Unwritten and Brainhurts,

Thank you for the poly info. Taking this step would be huge and eliminate any doubts. Why am I so afraid to force this on him?

Do either of you know if when we have a session with Harley if we get to talk to him alone? I want to ask him about exposure and a polygraph.

Certified mail?

Or why don't you call and ask for him? You can block your number if she answers. Since it's his business you could call like you're a customer until you get him on the phone??

Yes, Steve talks to each of you alone.

You are afraid to require it as part of his committment to recovery (notice the verbiage change there...) because you want to cling to the nice feelings you are experiencing with this seemingly newfound commitment on his part. You fear that if you require this, he will say no and you will know that he has more secrets, or that he will fail it and prove he has more secrets. Perhaps you are afraid because your gut is telling you something, and it is easier to just ignore it and continue the nice feelings, even if only temporary.

I HOPE your sitch is not like mine. I hope your WH has given you all the information already. You will know the minute you ask him to take a poly, by his reaction.

I was going to suggest also calling the house. Have a script prepared in advance to read off of, as if you are a telemarketer, so that if the OW answers you can just read from the script until she hangs up on you or says no to the buy one get one free snuggie deal... That way if she answers you will not raise suspicion on her part.

Yes this is correct. Yes my gut is telling me something, and yes I am too scared to do anything about this. I just cannot even think about how I am going to tell him I want a poly. That wording just doesn't even come to mind and I am scared. I want to believe the best, but ever since he started this career 13 years ago, I have had a gut feeling he has betrayed me physically. I want to believe he hasn't and I'm not sure I can handle the truth. I'm terrified of the truth.

My hope is Harley can help me know what to do.

This sounds like a great idea. I've looked up how to block my number from their caller ID. Just want to get to him, not her.

I have begun tweaking the exposure letters for our situation. Also trying to parent a busy toddler, which is hard. It would be simple if I didn't have to be a mom full time.

Careful if you're calling a toll free (800) number. Caller ID block doesn't work when you call those.

I ask for your feedback regarding this letter to the OW BS:

Dear OW BS:

It is with deep regret that I must inform you that your wife has had an emotional affair with my husband from approximately April 2011 to February 21, 2012. Their relationship changed from business associate to good friend when they were in "a city" together with "their company" in April 2011.

Your wife was then my husband�s mentor for the XXXXX with their company starting in August 2011. I have proof of hundreds of texts exchanged between your wife and my husband that were not within the scope of XXXXX and the two of them crossed a line that should have stayed strictly business as his mentor, 95% of the texts initiated by your wife. I have proof of the content of most of the November and December 2011 texts, although some were deleted by him. I feel it is my duty to report these interactions as you need to know who you are married to and what types of things she does without your knowledge. I also encourage you to check your wife�s cell phone records immediately, and secretly, so that you can avoid her covering her tracks.

In February, I asked that my husband send your wife an email changing their means of communication from text messages to business phone or email only. After this, she never contacted him again and then left the XXXXX program, from what I understand. My fear is that by exposing this information to her, that she will again contact my husband and I do not want him to be contacted ever again.

Please contact me via email or cell phone if you have any questions.
Thank you,
BS

Read this aloud to yourself.
It is a bit clumsy.
It needs to be clearer.

Try getting your point across without sounding fearful.

Help with this one also. Exposure to his 3 employees:

Dear XXX, YYY, and ZZZ,

It is with deep regret that I must inform you of an inappropriate relationship my husband has had with his work mentor, OW. When I discovered the emotional affair, H attempted to change the relationship from a secret friend back to a business relationship, however, OW dropped out of the XXXXX Program as his mentor. I believe this is solely due to him cutting off her contact with him via texting. Due to the inappropriate nature of the texts, I have asked that H no longer use text as a way to communicate for business with persons of the opposite sex. I hope you can respect this boundary.

I would ask that you use your influence with H to persuade him to keep his business relationships strictly business and hold him accountable for any actions that are beyond the scope of conducting business. I also ask that XXXX and ZZZZZ be sure to understand that your relationship is not one of friendship with H, but strictly business in nature and to keep within this boundary to protect yourselves and your relationships with your own spouses.

If you have any questions or comments regarding this relationship or any other relationship H has had in the past, please know that my door is open and you can contact me anytime and this will be kept confidential.

Thank you,
BW

For example:

"Neither my husband nor myself will tolerate contact of any sort from your wife."

Okay I like that. Changing that part.

Rule of thumb when writing this sort of letter to the other BS.
Leave out emotional embellishment.

Any other emotional embellishment that I can't see? Help! Want to make this good. Is there too much info in the letter? Is it too long? How can I simplify?

No.
I wrote that for other MB readers.

Ok. Thank you!

Tin, My cat is trying to sit on the keyboard .... but, I'll do my best.

Better.......

"Starting August 2011, your wife was my H's mentor."

My cat is being a brat.
he thinks its his mouse.
Gotta go.

So when are you sending the exposure letters?

Read this.
Joseph's Letter

I know you are all sick of me for not doing exactly as I should have. If I had found MB back in early January and exposed correctly, then this would all be different. I read and re-read the texts between H and this woman and there isn't anything sexual until the one day that I didn't get the whole series of his texts but I saw he said "Stroke stroke" to her about something. The texts were only flirtacious and joking.

So is this about the fact that he does so many things that hurt me and doesn't consider my feelings, or is this about an EA? I can't answer this. Is it about being married to workaholic? Is it about him lying to me about our finances and purchasing a new expensive vehicle or totally reflooring our home when we actually couldn't afford it? Is it about a secret, lying life that existed without my knowledge, that hiding from me drove him slowly away from me to keep it all hidden? Is the budding relationship with this homely, unattractive woman just the final straw?

My husband says he finally wrote a response to Dr. Harley at the radioshow and before he left for scouts last night. He told me to turn on his work laptop and read it. Not sure if I should post it here or not. I don't have it, but the main points I remember from it is that he was not happy in our marriage for many years and it is "a miracle neither of us were having affairs." He went on to explain that the relationship with that woman was taken out of context, that she was just a friend, he has no feelings for her and never will. That it isn't an EA because he didn't feel anything for her. He did say in the letter that he feels she did have feelings for him, now that he thinks about. But he doesn't miss her in any way shape or form.

He said he was a "ship without a port" for a number of years. In one part of the letter he says he was unhappy in our marriage and fell out of love with me, yet he just worked and came home, but didn't look for an affair. Yet then later in the letter he states that he did fantasize about having a person who admired him and didn't criticize him (exactly how he described his friendship with this OP).

I think back about the time when he stopped participating in the marriage and how I do agree that like many of the women in Dr. Harley's books, I gave up and because my love bank was drained, I quit meeting his. I guess I succeeded in making him feel as awful as he made me feel. He was trying to explain that he always had love, but not really. I asked him, "You loved me but you weren't in love with me?" and he said yes.

So is exposure really the answer? I will find out tomorrow when I ask Harley.

Follow Steve's advise to the letter.

Just a quick update on our situation.

We had our first session with Steve and Steve is now out of town. We have our next appt scheduled next week. He talked to H first for about 40 mins, me 15, then us 10. He said that he will be our coach through the MB system, but first the gash has to be treated. That I have been badly hurt and this must be repaired first. He senses that H isn't telling me everything. He said H must cut off ALL contact with OW. He blocked her email address and if she shows up at any work event, he is to leave. He gave H a few things to work on to try to build trust. My H finished LB book, as did I, and now as part of my EP's, he is reading the Surviving an Affair book. Now he is just surprised that I never had an affair based on the way he has treated me our entire marriage. It has really opened his eyes to his mistakes. He had an EA (although he won't call it that) because I finally gave up on him and did my own independent behavior and stopped meeting his ENs. It was likely a matter of time before I was off on my own EA. I always tried to keep myself at a distance from men to avoid that. Don't think there weren't offers. There were. I just kept them at arms length or stopped talking to men who were flirting with me.

I am sick, have been down over 24 hours throwing up and with a headache. I hope it is just bad luck and not from the stress of the past 6 months. I still feel like there is something out there that he isn't telling me. I asked Steve about the polygraph and about exposure to the OW's BH and he didn't answer. I'm planning to ask again during the next call. I do feel like there is something he has done that he isn't telling me, still. Not sure how to address this problem.

Thanks for you support,
TinT

Please let us know what Steve says about the poly and the exposure to OW's BH.

Tomorrow is our 17th anniversary. I was on our old computer that our son uses and decided to look for some things (emails) that I know I had saved between us in the past. I found emails from 2002, 2003, and 2004 all stating to him that I needed him to work and volunteer less and be home with me more. Begged him many times to be the husband any woman deserves. Not sure how it is that these memories get forgotten, but reading them makes me sad and not optimistic that our relationship will ever be maintained like I want it to be.

He says it will be different this time because we are using MB and will follow it for life. I feel so pessimistic that it will ever change. Just needed some reassurance that these men really can change.

TinT

If the MB plan is followed, then, yes, people can learn to change their habits. You both just keep doing it every day, tweaking whenever needed.

We keep refreshed in the MB teachings by listening to the audio series periodically and also going through Draw Close. The radio show is also a very good education on what makes a marriage great.

The hard part is learning the new habits and the negotiating skills needed to follow the POJA.

But yes, it can be done. There are lots of folks who still post on these forums who are in recovered romantic marriages. Reading their posts is encouraging, because they are proof that it can be done.

MB isn't just for the men to change it's for both spouses if they both follow the program.

The program must be followed or it won't work.

When you get into recovery if not now, I would get rid of those old emails because they will be constant triggers.

Oh I agree that we both need to work hard to keep with the program for life. The problem I see, especially after reading the old emails to each other, is that he loses focus. He is a workaholic and he will go into that mode and forget about me. I will do my best to hold him accountable for the POJA and his independent behavior. I also want to work hard to be radically honest with my feelings and not be a protector liar. An example of this follows:

For our anniversary we agreed on a spending limit and to buy something special for each other. I thought long and hard and bought him a crucifix necklace. He has never had one and has always wanted one and since we have been praying more and getting closer to each other and God, I thought it was a really nice gift for him.

He got me 3 pedicures. His reasoning is that he knows I like them and wanted to get me some. But the spa he bought them from is across the parking lot from work, so really easy to get, no time to purchase them at all. Also I get a pedi every couple of months and love them, but they are something I would get regardless of if he gifted them, if I wanted one. So I felt like he didn't really give me anything. Also, it isn't tangible. I can't look at it, hold it. I use it and it is gone. So after all the hXll we have been through, I get him a very special gift that took thought and he bought me something I give myself anyway.

Well I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so I didn't tell him how disappointed I was in his gift at first. I also felt ungrateful for feeling that way. Normally I wouldn't have said anything, but decided that the new me needs to be radically honest and tell him how I really feel. So I told him today. I am very proud of myself for opening up about how I felt about the gift.

What is everyone's take on the gift? Am I reading too much into how impersonal it was? It isn't as bad as the licence plate cover he bought me for Christmas.....

But anyway we are working the program, he is reading SAA. We have our next appt with Harley on Monday. My plan is still to ask him about exposure and polygraph.

Thanks,
TinT

Let us know what Steve says.

My husband took my car to have it serviced today. I have access to his vehicle all day. My DS3 is at grandma's house too. I'm finally getting a VAR an installing it under the dashboard. Found the perfect spot. I'm not chickening out this time.

Let us know when you've completed this task.

Yes, yes.

TinT. Look at it this way...now you have the perfect excuse to drop in at his office unannounced after you get a pedicure. It is also a good excuse to be in the parking lot by his work. I used to keep an eye on my own FWH this way. After the fact and putting 2 and 2 together, I now realize that I came very close to catching him meeting up with OW.


Don't feel bad...I got one for christmas too. It got totally mangled in the car wash.

DH had to but me another one. Same thing happened again. I think his intentions were true...just misguided in trying to be creative.

Drop in randomly....I like it. This could be good. I will have to do this all summer long.

I took my DD15 for her pre-op appointments this morning. I thought it would be an hour and it took two. I haven't gotten the VAR yet. I hope to find one at Walmart or RadioShack when I go out for groceries. My DD15 is having her 6th surgery next week. She has a congenital birth defect and has had surgeries since birth. I'm getting nervous about the surgery. In the past H has left me after she goes back for surgery. He would just walk off and not tell me where he's going, sometimes for 30 minutes. This time I have told him that if he needs to go off I need to know where he is gong and how long because abandoning me when my daughter is in the OR is a major LB. he has agreed to stay by my side this time. I hope he can be the husband I need him to be.

TinT

((((DD15))))

TinT, i'm just going to comment on the gift, not the other stuff you're going through.

men can be kinda thick when it comes to gift giving. in his mind, he got you something you will USE, and that he knows you like because you get them yourself. granted, it's not what you hoped for, but the thought was there.

my husband is pretty blokey. he does not do gifting well. i was disappointed for a LONG time, until i figured out he needed help. "i love this perfume and i'm running out. would make a lovely valentine's day gift." i think they appreciate direction rather than trying to play the guessing game! he does know that flowers suit anytime :O)

He is clueless, for sure. I'm trying not to read too much into the gift anymore. Thanks everyone!

As for the VAR, I went to two stores and picked out the one I like. I hate wasting money on these things! Just sneaking around and buying one and then having to sneak around to learn how to use it and practice with it, and then to sneak around to install it is really bringing me down. I know for my own peace of mind I need to get it done. I could think of a 100 things I could spend $50 on that I would enjoy using. I am mad at him again, and this time I can't even tell him why. I feel so dishonest putting this thing in. It all is making me sad. Wish none of this ever happened.

Also, I ran out of time. At first I was going to use the debit card but then decided I better get cash for it. Then I had to figure out how to get the cash without him knowing why I needed it. He watches the accounts daily and it is tight. So I didn't chicken out, I just need to get the cash little by little throughout the next week and then attempt to get it without my kids with me. Tall order.

I have also researched iphone keyloggers and I think I have found one I like but it is also $50. Ugh. Disgusting! Ticks me off that I feel I need to do this!

Thanks for letting me vent!
TinT

yes, i agree, it does suck. having to put spyware on my husband's phone, which isn't a smartphone, was a major learning curve for me, and i put it off because i didn't want to deal with it, but the peace of mind it gives me is worth it.

Just an update on us:

DD15's surgery is in 3 days.

Appointment with SH is today! I plan I ask him about exposure and polygraph. I did more snooping and the FB guy definitely is OW's BH and I found her mom and a brother on FB as well. If Steve says I should expose, I will. Just worried at H's reaction since he's been trying hard to follow MB and meet my needs.

Spent the weekend with H, DD15, and DS3 at a sports tournament for DD15 in the city of OP. H stayed with me and seemed 100% "with me", not foggy or distracted at all. He continues to meet my top needs, although my top need is conversation and he still needs to work on talking casually with me. Our conversations seem forced sometimes, or they are just about to do's and schedules. I need suggestions on how to make this less strained. I need conversation so much but it just feels forced.

I'm also still having a hard time with triggers. Something I hear will trigger memories of what I read them saying to each other on text and it reminds me of things they said to each other on text. Then that leads me into how he still claims he never felt anything for her, yet his flirting and joking went on for hours so I just can't get past how what he says about their "friendship" and how he felt nothing. If he felt nothing, why did he talk that way with her? And if I still have questions in my mind about things, should I be asking him or should I just drop it because it would be a LB?

I guess it all comes down to the fact that I still sense there is something out there that he isn't telling me.

Anyway, there's the update

Thanks,
TinT

Please tell Steve that OW has a BH, when you ask him about exposure, and that she is and was M to her BH when the affair occurred.
Here on triggers it helped me.
Managing Memories and Dealing With Triggers

Ok. We had our appt with SH. Based on our situation, Steve says that exposure to the OP's BH would not benefit our relationship. Since he is on board with MB program and I have not found any contact with her, that perhaps maybe in the future when our relationship is stronger, we could weather that storm.

We are to review our two questionnaires and go over them together. We are also to try to work together to get our UA time scheduled and try for >15 hrs. Hubby has other assignments.

I feel like I should feel better, but feeling sad. Now back to parenting 3 kids....

So hubs decided to talk to me a bit about his part of the phone appt with SH. He says that SH talked to him at length about how affairs begin. Hubs was very careful, still, not to label what he did as an affair. This little thing gets me hung up. It makes me so frustrated!

Yes he admits what he was doing was wrong, but he won't ever call it an affair. Because he deleted their texts and I only have a small fraction of their texts that I was able to capture new year's eve, he can't prove it wasn't one. He still says that he had no feelings for her. How could someone text and talk with someone that much and not have feelings for her? Why can't I get past this?

He is still working on the WHY of the texting with her. He says it was because A) He did not have boundaries in place to protect his heart from deposits, B) He did not have boundaries in place to keep himself from going to POS for emotional needs, C) I was not meeting his emotional needs.

Again this whole thing ramped up when I wasn't able to give him many emotional needs because I was sick and then had surgery, and then bled internally, and then had another surgery to stop the bleeding, and then had two transfusions, and then had a 4 week recovery. All the while he's texting and talking away with her. Ugh. When will I ever be able to move forward? I am constantly worried that the next time I get ill, he'll find someone else to fill the void. Also afraid that at any moment that I screw up he'll go off again and find a new "friend".

Just having a very bad day. Also have my DD15's surgery in 2 days.....

TinT

So what was YOUR homework that Steve gave you?

My homework was to go over the ENQ and LBQ with my husband. Once we go over these together, he wants me to do as much of them as I can. He says if I can meet all of them right away, good. But most likely it will take time for me to learn how to meet these and stop any LB he tells me about.

My other assignment is to be able to tell SH the reason my husband gives me for his affair by our next appt.

After reading your posts and hearing you on the radio, I don't think you are truly going to start healing until your H owns up to what he has done.

The fact that he is not calling it an affair really bothers me. In addition, the fact that he is not owning up to his feelings, even if they were foggy feelings is not right. You feel sad because he is NOT being honest with you and NOT taking accountability for his actions.

SH told me if I didn't like what he said or how he said it when he told me his reason why he had an affair, then say nothing to hubs and tell Steve. So I'll be telling him that he won't say he had an affair. He said, specifically, "The reason why I did what I did was....". Won't use the word affair.

So it was supposed to help me, but instead threw me back in recovery. I spent the day going back through his phone records and combined cell phone records of texts, calls made from his cell phone, and calls made from his office phone. I put all of these into an excel spreadsheet which would be perfect to share if I decided "widening te circle" of exposure would help my recovery. But I haven't wanted to look at them and compare them to his work calendar and our home Calender for weeks until today. I found many occasions that he texted with her on a weekend when one of us was out of town (soccer or scouts) or while he went out of town for business training (2X). I just needed to remind myself that yes, all evidence does point that he was having an EA. But it left me feeling angry and resentful. I'm thinking I may need meds to get me to quit obsessing. Or maybe I just need the truth.

I told him today I want a timeline.

This is why Dr. Harley recommends ADs while going through this.

I'm posting bedside at the hospital at 3:30 am. My DD15 had her surgery yesterday and they had to keep her overnight. For the first time ever in the 15 years she's had 9 surgeries, H was emotionally there for me and we were there for each other during the surgery. For all the others he has been robotic and even left me alone in the waiting room for up to 45 mins without telling me where he went. I was feeling so good about us until we were in her room and on our phones reading things quietly as she was finally sleepingand I got up to give him some affection and kiss and hug him. I noticed he was on his work email and quickly backed out of the screen he was typing on. It gave me a bad feeling but I tried to shake it off.

Because this was supposed to be outpatient, we decided that I'd stay here with DD tonight and he'd go home and be there for DS13. I couldn't sleep because I had a feeling something was wrong. I logged onto his work email and saw an email from a woman that he met through work and used to be in a chamber of commerce group with. Back then, probably close to 8 or 10 years ago I felt uncomfortable with his close relationship with her. They ate breakfast together often and I remember telling him he ate more with her than with me and it made me uncomfortable back then. At that time he scaled back his relationship, from what i knew. She still refers clients to him all the time, she is his Facebook friend, and she even friended me and comments on my posts a lot. Yesterday during the surgery she was activiely posting on my updates on facebook about DD. She even posted to her facebook to pry for her. She and I occasionally "like" each other's posts but don't talk a lot I accepted her friend request to keep an eye on her.

Well he got an email from he to his work address:

"Subject: RE: =0)
=======================

Happy to hear that [DD] is okay. xo

[OW]"

This is not the OW that he was texting with. This is someone I always suspected he had an EA with but he has denied it, even recently. I checked his sent mail and didn't see a reply from him. That doesn't mean he didn't send one and delete it from the sent file.

What is your take on this and how do you recommend I approach it? I am in panic mode again, am under major stress caring for my DD, and have slept 6 hours the past two night so need good help here!

Thanks,
TinT

His weak boundaries around women literally give me the vomits. I read the above and headed to the bathroom. I wanted to vomit.

He cannot keep you safe. His EXTREMELY HIGH need for admiration is his driver. He doesn't want tight boundaries around women because then his source of "fantasy" admiration will be gone.

You are not safe with him, and unless he is willing to make drastic changes, then I say it is time for Plan B.

The elephant in the room are his poor boundaries. He is refusing to change that ... hence nothing you do will keep you safe. He is ripe for an affair.

There is no road to recovery unless he is willing to give up all WOMEN of the opposite sex, until this happens you will need to separate. You will die by a 1000 cuts this way.

I will add this ...

Your husband does love you, he loves his family, something inside him loves his admiration more. Only he can figure that out.

You can try one more time and I would DEMAND this ... he either ends all contact with women of the opposite sex or this marriage will not work.

Your intuition is not lying to you ... don't shove it down ... listen to what your gut is telling you.

You are unsafe ... change has to happen ... only he can make the changes.

Pray,

Thanks for validating my feelings. You hit the nail on the head here! This is his top need, Admiration.

I decided to talk to him about it as soon as I could. I explained exactly as I wrote above. He repeated again that I am his one and only, always have been, always will be. Obviously this ticks me off because in my eyes I wasn't since he texted with OW for a year without me knowing and she fed his deep need for Admiration almost daily. I have a feeling that this woman who emailed him did for a time too. He assured me again that nothing went on with her, yet he didn't acknowledge my pain or apologize for it. Sad.

So DD15 finally got discharged and I thought about what to do all day. I decided to email OW and told her thank you for the prayers for DD, but said,
"it struck me as odd that you would send an email to him that includes "xo", hugs and kisses. I just wanted to keep you aware that if this email were sent from female to female, it would be sweet and endearing, but since you sent it directly to him and not me, it did strike the wrong chord. I'm sure you didn't mean any harm, but in the future you may want refrain from sending terms of affection to married men and not their wives, especially my husband. "

I took matters into my own hands, showed it to him, he said it looked fine, and I sent it. The woman clearly has boundary issues herself, she replied and apologized, said she didn't mean to upset me, and I think I made it clear how I felt about her x's and o's.

Opinions?

I agree he has very weak boundaries and I don't think he should have a facebook account by himself.

You should have one of his EPs, to get rid of your own accounts and only have a joint account.

Also please share this with Steve. This is why I still think the BH of OW1 should be exposed to because your WH hasn't had to have any consequences. I wonder what BH of OW2 would think about his WW sending "xo" to another man.

during this time with your DD15.

I have an update and need advice ASAP please. I'm in pain.

Background:
Hubby sent the following email to OW on 2/21/12:

"OW,
Going forward I am making a change in our relationship/communication. �I need for you to contact me only during normal business hours on my work phone or email in the future. I feel like the texts that have been sent early in the morning, after business hours, on weekends, and during holidays is crossing a line and I think we need to keep our relationship on a professional level. �This change is a result of reviewing some of our communication over the past six months and coming to the reality that I wouldn't want BW texting with a person that I don't know. �The types of texts that we have shared really could be interpreted to be inappropriate when read by a third party and I have to respect her enough to keep business relationships just business. �I appreciate all the business support you have given me and my group, but from now on I want to keep it on a business level only. �
WH"

I make him block her email. She never contacted him again, that is until today. She texts him the following today:

"Since I am not a corp employee anymore, I thought I would let you know that your email was offensive, unprofessional and hurtful. I have NEVER insinuate
d anything inappropriate to you, I have NEVER acted in an unprofessional way to you. The hurtful part is that, as a mom and wife, I always asked you abo
ut BW and your children and always wished the best for them, even wanted to try to help with info for school for your son. All my best to you and
your family going forward and hope you accomplish your professional goals as well. You won't hear from me again. OW"

He was on a corporate conference call and she and/or the new franchise owner she now works for could have been on the call and this time it was interactive and my husband talked for about 5 mins on the call. So if she was also on this call, should would have heard him talking. That's the only reason I can figure that she texted him today. They used to text for hours and play while on these calls.

He forwarded this text to me immediately and hung up on the call.

My first reaction: expose her to BH and mother. Now.

What else. I'm a wreck. I'm shaking. I've cried my eyes out already.

Help!!
TinT

Also, I need a link to expose the mother of the OW. I can't find it anywhere.

Thanks,
TinT

Here Exposure 101

This is why I've said exposure to OW's BH needs to be done when you first got here.

Breathe and we will help you. Read the link and get ready to drop the bomb.

I've read the Exposure 101 and maybe I'm just freaking out too much at the moment, but can't find one for the OW's mom. Here is the one I have for the BH of OW. Please tweak one more time.

I am about to puke. I honestly am. Husband has agreed to send a no contact letter. Unfortunately he is gone until 9:30 pm tonight. I'm in bad shape and having to care for DS15 who is in bad shape post op, DD13, and DD3. I want to make her suffer, too.


Thanks,
TinT

Dear BH:

It is with deep regret that I must inform you that your wife had an emotional affair with my husband from approximately April 2011 to February 21, 2012.

Starting August 2011, your wife was my husband�s mentor for XXXXXXXXXXX. I obtained phone records of hundreds of texts exchanged between your wife and my husband. I obtained the content of most of the November and December 2011 texts and saw that the texts were not within the scope of XXXXXX due to the flirting and joking. The two of them crossed a line that should have stayed strictly business as his mentor.

I feel it is my duty to report these interactions to you as her husband.

In February, I asked that my husband send your wife an email changing their means of communication from text messages to business phone or email only. After this, she left the XXXXX program. Your wife sent my husband another text today, violating our request for no texting contact. Neither my husband nor myself will tolerate contact of any sort from your wife.

Please contact me if you have any questions.

Thank you,
TinT

PS. You may find this article helpful regarding opposite sex friends and their affect on a marriage: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8119_friends.html

Just use this and change from friend to family.

Also this.

Also after your WH writes the no contact he needs to change his phone and all contact information.

Thank you Brainhurts!

Is my letter to her BH good to go?

Just saw it, yes looks good. Send it.

I am so scared of what this is going to stir up in my husband's company. Of how her husband will react. That they are going to say that I took it all out of context. That the joking and flirting and texts were all work related. I'm just scared as heck right now.

Here is what I came up with for the mother of the OW to expose EA to her via facebook message. OW does not have a facebook page, but her mom and husband do. I need feedback before I drop the bomb on this skanky-ho.

Dear mother of OW,

Your daughter was conducting an emotional affair with my husband from April 2011 to February 2012. She was his mentor at XXXXXX and she used her position to begin an inappropriate texting relationship with him. She may say it was just mentoring or a friendship, but it definitely crossed a line into what would be considered an emotional affair when she texted him late evenings, weekends, on holidays and early in the morning. She got him to confide in her and she confided in him with her own personal problems, none of which was business related. I was able to send proof of some of what they were saying to each other in November and December to my own email.

My husband asked that she never text him again on February 21, 2012. Soon afterward, she left the mentoring program and he never heard from her again, until today. She texted him again today. I am asking that you use your influence with your daugther to persuade her to leave my husband alone. My husband and I have been married 17 years, we have 3 children, I love him very much, and I will not tolerate further contact from your daughter to my husband.

Thank you,
TinT

TinT, why is she able to text your H? Why have you not changed his cell phone number? You need to cut off all means of contact. Has this not happened?

I would trim down your letter and cut straight to the chase:

TinT, I'm not a vet as you requested, but gonna put my 2 cents worth in anyway.

I know the fear of calling the OW's BH is daunting, but why? What have YOU done wrong? What has HE done wrong? Hmmm, me thinks nothing.

BUT, by not not letting him know what is going on in his life makes you at the very least culpable in his pain that he has yet to experience. Guess why? By not telling this poor betrayed soul what his wife is doing puts you in the same category as your WH and his OW. By not telling him, you are complicit in the deception that is going on right underneath his nose. Is this a burden you are truly willing to shoulder?

You must relieve yourself of this burden. It's not your's to carry.

Just like you, he deserves the truth about his life and to whom he's married.

TinT, please help that poor man understand the truth of his existence. It will change everything for you.

I found OW's BH. I was terrified to call him, but I did. To get to him I had to call his MOTHER and ask her to have her son get in touch with me. She was so kind and gentle and southern....she said, 'is this about his wife?' I said, 'yes, ma'am.' He called me back within 10 minutes. It was then he learned the reason why his young wife had left him. Because she was having an affair with my husband.

He deserved the truth about his life.

Thank you all so much for the support. I'm scared as heck! I edited my letter to her mom and am sending the other letter to her BH. I am going to a walk with my H. He says after seeing me hurt even more, he will support me in exposure to that man. I am so stressed right now my carotid arteries are burning. So odd. I will expose before midnight tonight. Please pray for me. I'm terrified.

Stop the fear. OW should fear YOU, not the other way around. You should be FURIOUS at her damage to your marriage!

But stay calm and try not to want to kill the OW (they have laws about murder ) Talk to the man.

I agree. Exposure is the way to go. That man has the right to know.

I just hit send on the exposure letter via facebook to the OW's BH. Thought I'd feel relieved...maybe that comes later.

You did the right thing.

Don't you feel better that you helped this BH know the truth about his life? Wouldn't you have wanted someone to tell you?

I just exposed EA to OW's mother the above letter with edits (thank you) via Facebook message. I'm worried about the fallout.

I think I am feeling empowered and want to email OW too. Does
Harley recommend this?

Also, I have emailed Steve several times over the past few days and he never responds. Has anyone who pays the big bucks for his counseling ever get email support in a crisis situation. I am extremely disappointed that he was not able to help me.

Thanks for everything,
TinT

Read this. Dr. Harley "I Encourage BH to confront OM"

Hi TinT, well done on exposing the OW!!!

I just wanted to chime in and allay you of some of your worries. I am a BW who had to beg and plead for someone to tell me of my WH's A after his continued denials. Even when a friend exposed him, they refused to tell me any details or who OW was. It took months of my snooping and pain, but to no avail. Then, after NINE months of trying to heal without the facts, I got confirmation of who OW was. Only then, once I knew who the assailant on my marriage and life was, did I really start to move forward and heal.

You have done the right thing by exposing. Ensure you get this OW's BH's contact number / email so you can contact him direct. To ensure that he knows.

As for the Harley's not responding, I have heard that some email addy's struggle to get through. Try contacting the mods here and they often help pass the message through. I have emailed the Harley's and always had a prompt response, so it may be your addy on a spam filter.

I do know that Zhamila on the 101 forum, who is coaching with Steve, has been saying that he was on leave and out of touch for the past week. He is back this week but I am not sure what day.

I think I will send the BH of OW a certified letter as well to be sure he got it. I think this woman is addicted to my husband and hearing his voice on an educational group phone conference tipped her to text him. He has now paid the money to block her number. I check the phone bill every day an he knows it so he would not use that means to contact her. Her email is blocked on his work account. I helped him set that up. I am just disappointed that he didn't think it was a big deal and she was able to make contact. I am optimistic about his openness and honesty with me as he has always been a protector liar and telling me about her contact was a big step for him.

I just want her out of our lives. I know she is going to tell her mom and her BH that she did nothing wrong. Maybe she thinks what she did was harmless and fun, but what she did and how she interacted with my husband almost destroyed our marriage, so it was a big deal. I will never forget how I felt when I discovered their flirting and bantering back and forth. It hurt me worse than anything. I NEVER want to feel that pain again!

But I am tempted to address her "hurt" she felt from my husband's cut off of her via texting. He didn't even cut her out altogether, so I just don't get why she was so hurt. He had to finish out the mentoring program he paid for, so I agreed to that (stupidly).

Anyway, thanks for the support. I am needing it!

Send it to the BH. He is the one who has a right to know of his WW's activities.

If you choose to also send a message to OW, that is your choice. I never did and I am not sure she is worth the ink. My thoughts change on this often though.

Right TinT, I see this as a chink in your marriage armour. You and WH have to protect your marriage. But so far, you are relying on blocking OW from emailing his work on THAT ACCOUNT. Now, OW are manipulative schemers as you well know. What if she contacts from another email address? What if this makes a LB$ and contact restarts?

Affairs are an addiction. You need to ensure ALL contact is stopped. If your WH was an alcoholic, would you allow breweries to email him? I doubt it. Imagine if that email hits him at a weak moment, when he is craving a fix. Get his work email addy changed. It can happen. Think of all of the women who get married and change it. Ask him to do this as one of his EP's.

Has he changed his phone number? You need to ensure she can't contact him if you truly want her out of your lives...

Caracal,
You make valid points. If he changes his work email, she will get it right away. He owns a franchise and all the owners have a web page off the franchise's main page. It lists phone and email so changing it won't do a thing. Now I can get her blocked on his other email account. He says he'll change his cell number if I want him to. I can't decide. I've also thought about him selling out his business and restarting again, but that would put us back to him working 70-80 hours a week to build another business and broke We can't have that. His job is finally flexible after 13 years! Also we have a big surgery we are paying off now.

I do agree that affairs are an addiction and I don't want him to ever be vulnerable again. We have many EP's in place that we never considered before. He has said that after reading SAA he thinks he should stop texting any POS ever again. That it isn't worth the risk. I am thrilled to have come such a long way. My LB account has been going up and up, even with this contact. I just wish I could make her understand why her close friendship with him was so dangerous. I just want this chapter to end so we can begin the next one.

I'm glad the LB$ is going up. You need to protect this. He needs to keep making deposits.

Now, you can choose to sell the franchise, but you seem reluctant due to FINANCES. Admit this. Divorce is very expensive. Are you blocking holes in marital recovery? Are you affair-proofing your marriage? Because divorce could cost you more...

If you persevere with WH remaining at work (and I am by no means advocating this) Can you get copied in to ALL emails from the franchise page? I would ask him to change his mobile / cell number.

A friend in a similar sitch has arranged for ANY time WH leaves the office, she is copied in to the office email that he is now unavailable. And copied in to when he returns. She therefore knows to contact him on the mobile during those hours.

I'm not a vet. I am sure they will chime in with suggestions. Do NOT rugsweep this. It will not save your marriage. This is your best shot at having the romantic marriage you dreamed of.

And EP's are a huge way at ensuring you feel safe...

The bigger picture is still his weak boundaries around the opposite sex. That isn't being addressed, and it has to be a very STRONG EP for you. He has to eliminate all avenues that allow him to have these kinds of friends.

I am concerned if this EP isn't taken seriously, then this type of EA stuff will continue and you will slowly die by a thousand cuts.

Can you address this with his business as well ... can he come here to post?

Husband just asked me what my "handle" was on MB and I told him. He never asked until yesterday if I had a thread. I am trying to encourage him to post so he can get your help with establishing boundaries with POS. I am really hoping he'll post. I'll keep asking.

In the meantime I'm wondering if you could prepare me for what type of response I may expect from OW's BH?

Thanks,
TinT

Well in my stitch he was pretty shocked (we were all friends). He asked me to send him all my proof, which I did.

Then he asked me what to do and I sent him the link to MB.

Most BH are thinkers and need time to let it sink in. Be there for him when he tries to make contact.

Or better yet, keep trying to get a hold of him.

I also exposed on facebook which we had a ton of common friends because we were all friends. My WH and the BH were team mates.

I have printed out the letter that I sent him on facebook and I'm going to send it to their home, certified. I am not sure how I will get to the post office today, but will try. I am ready for closure.

Also do you think I should now have him hand write the no contact letter and I send it to her certified too?

Yes I would have him hand write it.

Send it certified to OW and put a copy to her BH along with your exposure.

We had a poster just recently expose to the BH because she was terrified of talking to him.

When he received the letter he contacted her, asking her for her evidence, and was very grateful for being told. The OW had lied ( like they always do) and told her WH that she had told her BH. According to the BH he had no idea.

Ok, great. I have emailed him the following no contact letter to hand write and then give to me:

OW,

I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BW did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BW for the pain I caused her, I will continue to do my best to be the husband she deserves. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make ANY contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely,
WH

That is a wise question TinT. I wish I had asked that myself.

It is possible that OW has already taken protective measures and painted you as an overly jealous and controlling wife. "Honey there is someone at work with this crazy wife who thinks I had an EA with her BH. Can you believe that? I hope she doesn't start to harass us.

The key is to destroy that image by remaining calm and cool. Offer to send him your proof.

Plant the seed in BH head and let him start to put it together. You are in a good place because your own WH is willing to admit to it.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of Pokerface.

I have told myself that obviously what I read sent me into a panic of fear that they were having a PA. My H never talked to people at work the way he talked with her. She was swearing in her texts, using slang, flirting heavily. Texting him when she knew he was at home. It was never sexual in nature, but it was a closeness that was way out of the range of normal for business. I never claimed her to be in a PA. Her text from yesterday (see above) made me think she thought he implied it was something sexual. It was never that. It was them meeting each other's needs for admiration and affection. The cussing, the slang, just not professional and crossed a line.

So whether or not her husband thinks that how they interacted with each was acceptable in their marriage is up to him. In MY marriage, that is unacceptable. So it is all on him. That's what I'm trying to tell myself.

What bothers me most is what her mother will say. Again, I will send the info and she can determine for herself if she would act that way with a married man. If her family finds this type of relationship okay, then hey, no problemo. I gave the info, asked her mom to help me keep that woman from interfering in my marraige, and that is that.

I have a call into my doctor for some meds. I am still having burning in my carotids...must be a form of a panic attack.

TinT.

Some people will choose the path of denial and that is not your problem.

All you want is NO CONTACT with your own WH.

Don't sweat this. Your WH sounds like he will back you up.

Deep breathes. And yes it makes you physically ill so the sooner you get it over the better.

I thought it was over. He sent her that other email Feb 21st. She never responded. I was relieved. When she left the mentoring program I thought that maybe he should now send the no contact letter, but thought, why bring it back up now? Now I wish I had been smarter. Just crazy she would text him 3 and a half months later. Makes me want to go punch her in the face. I never would, but I WANT to.

Now that you finally exposed to OW's BH he can watch her on his end.

Waywards are sneaky, especially OW. That's why all contact information needs to be changed.

I know that feeling! Believe me. Waywards are very sneaky and underhanded. Never underestimate the lengths that they will go. That was my own biggest mistake.

Exposure will put eyes on OW and that is like a punch in the face.

There is really nothing bad that can happen here except that they can call you crazy. Do you care if that will end contact? If OW BH does not believe you then his marriage will probably suffer another affair and this time it might be physical. Then BH will think back...and he will believe you.

Has your WH come clean at work about what was going on?

He is telling his 3 employees on Monday, he says.

One is out of town this week and he wants to tell them the same day. The one who is out of town may still be in contact with this OW as I believe she sold her some weight loss products. If she did and then told OW about us going through surgery with DD15, that also could have spurred the contact. But she definitely texted him right after he spoke on the call she was listening to from her city. As I said early on, when she was his mentor and they were on these educational conference calls, they would text and flirt and joke back and forth for an hour and a half during the calls instead of listening and him learning. Ticks me off. Hearing him on it probably made her miss the attention he gave her. Grrrrrr......

I want to send the following to the OW today. Please advise!


Dear OW,

Imagine your husband going to sleep New years eve and you follow him to bed 30 mins later after saying goodnight to your children. Now imagine coming into the bedroom and seeing his phone light up in the darkness and see that a text has come in from some woman he works with. Now imagine, out of curiosity, scrolling back and reading texts between your husband and this other woman that were flirtatious, with cussing, slang terms, and unprofessional, non work related discussions. Now imagine your entire world shattering when you discover what you think is most likely a physical affair between your beloved husband and this woman based on the way they speak to each other.

Imagine not knowing what to do because you are fully supported by your husband because he has asked you to leave your career to stay home and raise your small toddler. And the fear that you will lose it all and not only lose your true love, but also your home and children because you believe your husband is having an affair.�

Now that, OW, is what I will define as "hurtful". Not the letter that my husband agreed to send to end your emotional affair with him. You have NO IDEA the pain you caused my family with the carelessness of your texting. You DID cross a line, just as my husband said in his email. �I have read your texts with MY HUSBAND. You two crossed a line. We hold solid evidence of that in our hands.�

NOTHING in that email that my husband sent you you on Feb 21 was "offensive, unprofessional, and hurtful," unless you are wrapped up in the fog of an emotional affair with my husband. So maybe him cutting off your relationship with him did hurt you. You spent hours and hours texting him, so I am sure you missed him when he locked you out.�

My�husband requested that you contact him in an professional way via business email or phone. You broke that by sending yet another unprofessional text to him yesterday. Everything you said in your text backs up the fact that you were conducting an emotional affair with my husband. What kind of reply were you hoping to get? An apology and then a rekindling of your relationship? Shameful, OW, evil and shameful.

Do not interfere in our marriage ever again. If you do, �we will file a restraining order. You may want to read up on proper business etiquette or else you may be unemployable in the future when you repeat this offense again.�

All my best to you and BH,
BW


Your text to MY husband:
"Since I am not a corp employee anymore, I thought I would let you know that your email was offensive, unprofessional and hurtful. I have NEVER insinuate
d anything inappropriate to you, I have NEVER acted in an unprofessional way to you. The hurtful part is that, as a mom and wife, I always asked you abo
ut BW and your children and always wished the best for them, even wanted to try to help with info for school for your son. All my best to you and
your family going forward and hope you accomplish your professional goals as well. You won't hear from me again. OW"

Nonononono!

Cut out most of that and send

"Do not interfere in our marriage ever again. If you do, we will file a restraining order. "

Mrs (married surname).

Do not wish her the best.

PS: I answered your query about Steve Harley. Since you did not acknowledge it I do not know if you've seen it.

Oh no SugarCane, I missed your reply. We have an appointment now tomorrow at 6 am, but I am still discouraged that he hasn't replied to any of my 3 emails. I'll address it with him tomorrow. I needed major support 24 hours ago when that woman broke NC. I'm still having major anxiety and panic attacks.

I won't send my above rant, most likely. But she needs to see what she did. All she cares about is the hurt she felt. No clue what she did to my family and my kids. She's a homewrecker and she thinks it is all a joke.

Do not send that email!!!

The denial means that your husband's no contact letter hit home and she is deeply ashamed. She knows that you know that she knows...

The important part is that she will comply with no contact.

Let it lie right there. Further correspondence from you or your husband will just keep the denial cycle going.

What do you mean? She says she never did anything wrong and HE hurt her by telling her to stop texting him and make the relationship professional. This letter I wrote today (rant), would be my justification when she claims that I am a crazy jealous wife making up an EA between she and my husband. She is currently denying anything inappropriate.

TinT. You are mistaking OW for a reasonable person who cares about others. Don't send that letter because you will get NO satisfaction from her. OW is in save her own butt mode and will stop at nothing to throw you under the bus and avoid blame.

A letter from you trying to educate her on boundaries will not work because OW does not care about you. It just opens the door for OW to respond to you with something like...well your WH just needed someone to talk to because you weren't there for him. If you think you are mad now just wait for her to start this babble once you open that door.


Store what you wrote on that letter on your internal hard drive and use it on OW BH and her Mother if they contact you and are unbelieving. This will give you the most power.

You also need to go NC for life with OW.

Which is blatantly untrue. We must either conclude she is a) clinically insane or b) desperately rewriting history because she winces at this accurate description of her whorish behaviour.

She winces. At the truth she cannot bear to admit.

ALL waywards justify. To ease their conscience.

Are they batting their eyelids while encouraging their AP to put down his wife? Then its 'just a friendship' because they talk about spouses. Justification. Excuses. Whatever. Its all guilt.

But this is the important part. SHE IS NOT YOUR BUSINESS! She never had any place in your marriage and has no place in your head now. Toss out the trash and get to work pretending she never existed.

The mess in her head is her BHs concern, once he is clued up.

Its not your mess to clear up.

Thank you pokerface and indiegirl! After I wrote this today, put it into my story, I felt so much relief. My anxiety went way down. I think I was second guessing myself about the content of their texts. But recalling how I discovered it and the reasons I reacted the way I did makes me sure that exposure and insistence on no contact for life is justified.

I want to rid my mind of her. And I was doing so until the witch contacted him. More discussion will be taking place with my H tonight.

Thank you all so much! Please continue to comment. I really am feeling awful and have an appt with my doc for AD's Friday. Tomorrow my daughter gets some of her stitches out. She's just now starting to eat after surgery and I'm still dosing her with meds every 3 to 4 hours around the clock. It has been over 6 months since Dday and I want a normal life again.

Thanks again,
TinT

Well done! Did you give him contact info in case he needs to contact you?

I'll ask you this again, because I don't think you answered (if you did, my apologies in advance) Why have you not changed your WH's cell phone number??

Because I'm a doormat? He has blocked her number as of yesterday. I never insisted because he has always told me i have overreacted about the whole thing. I guess I started thinking maybe I had.

Is this something I should insist on so I don't feel like I have to check his cell phone records 3 times a day?

He needs to get a new cell phone number for this and give that phone to you. You'll have to forward all of his business calls to him. And if she does call his phone, you'll get the message. And YOU'LL return the call.

I am making it clear that he will expose his affair to his employees, and they are to tell her to never call the office again and hang up on her. Then they will tell him and he will call me to report. If she calls the office number (he never answers his office phone) I am going to get a restraining order, so help me God.

She is blocked on his work email. He'll never know if she emails him.

He will block her from his personal email tonight.

She is blocked on his cell phone. Will discuss number change with Steve in the AM.

I have her siblings's Facebook pages as well as aunts and cousins. She does not have a Facebook page, but I noticed last night she posted on her Mom's status update using her husband's page. So I'm wondering if she intercepted the exposure Facebook email I sent him. Should I resend it? Mail it? Call their home?

Call their home. Phone is always best

I second this.

Do it sooner rather than later so you can start to put this behind you. Exposure should be done like a tsunami, sudden and unexpected. This helps it have more effect on the OW, and also allows you to start focussing on recovering your marriage, rather than a skank who is not worth your thoughts.

Can you do it in person? If not you need to call OW's BH on phone.

Do it today. I'm sure OW intercepted your message. Waywards are very sneaky.

Okay, so we had our next session with Steve. We discussed at length the issue with the xo email from his female collegue as well as the text from OW. We also discussed at length his explanation for why the EA happened. Steve said that H needs to be sure and able to tell me that it was because he did not have the protections in place to keep others from making deposits in his LB. Not place blame on me like he did by saying that one of the reasons is because I didn't meet his EN. So I don't know what he said to H, but I'm hoping the explantion from H will go better next time.

Steve and I discussed at length whether or not a no contact letter should be sent at this point by my H. He says it is important to think about whether benefit of the message that is being sent outweighs the negative of the response she will need to give him to cover herself from a potential sexual harrassment lawsuit. I want to be clear that their texts only once had a sexual connotation. She called him a "freakin stud" and he responded with "stroke stroke". Within a week of that I told him I knew about their texting and told him to stop it immediately. Steve thinks that she may be trying to cover herself and she'll never admit anything was wrong due to the fact that she was his mentor and there will be fallout when he sends this letter.

So I am 90% sure I want him to send it to send a clear message to her that he wants no more contact from her ever again. The other part of me is scared to send it because I don't want to open up another can of worms. I want it to go away.

What do you vets think about it? Is his lack of response to her, "You won't hear from me again." enough of a message to her that he doesn't want any contact? Or rather, here is the better question: Can you help me weigh the pros and cons of leaving it alone and not sending anything ever again vs him sending a no contact letter?

Well Steve has a good point about the possible harassment charge.

On that note your WH did already sent a NC note and she broke NC.

I think if you concentrate on getting a hold of her BH and along with your proof you tell her BH that my WH asked for NC and she broke it.

Then you're sending a two fold message to her. KWIM?

In addtion to my above questions, I wanted to report that my H has exposed his EA to his first employee. Two more to go. I asked him to record the conversation so I can hear what he said and know what she knows.

He asked that if the OW calls his office line, she is to tell her she is not to call his office ever again and then hang up. She was shocked because the OW is overweight and I am a fit person. She agrees to hang up and then report to husband.

Anyway, I feel relieved because I feel like this is a huge step made by him to protect our marriage and make it safer for me! I feel soooo much better today.

Also, we have decided that he will send OW a true no contact letter.

Thanks for all your help and support! Hugs!!

TinT

TinT. Can she bypass WH and report the contact to you?

I am guessing that you are also an owner of this franchise?

I'm sure if I asked he would do that. I thought about that same thing and will discuss it with H tonight.

so, really, who's doing the harrassing?

Exactly. That's why the best person to be informed is the OW's BH.

He needs to be told that SHE broke NC.

yep. ita.

make sure you keep that contact,TNT, jic. i'm a big believer in CYA in paperwork!

I think she thinks we are going to sue her for sexual harrassment since she was his mentor and she instigated 75% of every text series that went on. He instigated some of it, but she did all the ones on evenings and weekends and holidays. In my opinion, no business should be conducted by my husband when he is home with me unless we POJA and we agree that he can check his work email. Regardless, we don't have anything on her that would be considered sexual harrassment, I don't think. And I never said it was sexual. She was hitting his affection and admiration needs, not SF.

He is telling all three of his employees that he is cutting out texting with anyone but family. He told his first employee that yesterday. He said, "if you text me to say you are late or ask me a work related question, know that I'll be calling. I have historically not been a big texter and really feel that people, me included, say things on text that would never be said in a phone conversation or in person. For that reason I am moving away from texting."

But I have everything documented in email and printed a lot of stuff out as well. He is working on his no contact letter today for me to approve. If I don't approve it, we are either going to POJA it, or he is going to take it to Steve on Monday at our appointment and have him help with the content. I want to do it ASAP. Also am going to send my letter to the BH signature guaranteed so he has to sign for it the same day. I agree that H should know that she broke no contact by text. But I always thought that his "no contact" was too weak. At the time, she was still his mentor and he was just telling her he was changing their relationship to business from friendship and to contact him by business phone or email only. She did break that. The main reason I am making him mail a real no contact letter is so that it is clear we want no more contact, ever.

Update:

1. H has exposed affair to his male employee.
2. He will expose affair to last employee when she gets back into town Monday. This last employee may possibly still be in contact with OW.
3. H has drafted a no contact letter to OW for me to look at later today.

4. I have an appointment today with my doc to get on AD/AA meds.
5. I have printed out and addressed exposure letter to OW BH. I included a copy of my husband's email changing their relationship to professional as well as her text to him from Tuesday, violating his request to stop texting him.

H sent me the below first draft of no contact letter. He plans to email it return receipt so he has evidence that he sent it and she received it. Feedback appreciated.

OW,
I got your text and wanted to make it very clear that I do not want ANY contact with you going forward. This means in person, text, email or phone calls. �Not to my cell phone, to my office or to my home. �In return you can expect that I will not make any contact with you. I care a great deal for my family and I will not do anything going forward that could be interpreted as detrimental to their happiness. Please respect this wish.
H

TnT,

I'm so happy things are in progress. The NC from your WH looks good and I'm so glad you're informing BH of OW.

I hope she does think you can sue her for sexual harassment. Maybe you should? Look at the damage she has done.

I'm glad you're getting into your doctor. You can tell you are so much stronger. Good job, my friend and stay with it.

Here's the final draft that we agreed upon and he sent it return receipt to both her email accounts, both of which he has blocked from return emails.

"I got your text and wanted to make it very clear that I do not want ANY contact with you going forward. This means in person and by text, email or phone calls. �Not to my cell phone, to my office or to my home. �In return you can expect that I will not make any contact with you. �Respect my desire to permanently end this relationship. "

Hoping for relief soon. Waiting to see my doc for some additional relief.

Thanks everyone for your extreme patience with me and your support.

Just a quick update:

I took some good meds and was finally able to sleep through the night for the first time since New Year's Eve. Also, I had a bit of a melt down regarding my daughter and the situation and H stuck with me through it all. Even after I said something very hurtful. I have apologized and am ready for some kind of normalcy around here. We can't have UA becaue of her delicate condition and DS3, but we are trying. It will be better soon.

Also got a confirmation email that OW read his no contact letter.

Thanks!

Good. Do you know if BH received his exposure letter yet or not?

Did you get confirmation from the certified letter?

I know with your DD15's surgery time is limited, but you need that UA time more than ever with all that's happened.

Can grandma come over and babysit for a bit? Glad you're finally sleeping. Self care, sleep, diet and exercise are essential.

One grandma has DS13, the other has already had DS3 3 days this week. She's already caring for my dad who has cancer and wears her thin.

I haven't been able to leave the house except for my dr appt yesterday since I can't leave DD15. She was bleeding heavily again yesterday and in a lot of pain. It has been rough. So I haven't sent the letter to her BH. I almost feel like at this point it is vengeful and I am not that kind of person. I just want to move on. I sent the Facebook email and hope it is enough as I can't take much more of my energy thinking about her. If she calls his office, or texts or calls from an unblocked phone we are going nuclear, exposing to the entire company and I'll do all his FB contacts and her mom's too if I have to. But for now I have the letter there along with his email and a copy of her text from Tuesday.

Do I really have to take it to that step?

I know you want to move on, I really do.

Dr. Harley says the first priority of exposure is the BS of the OP. He needs to know. I'm sure she intercepted that facebook message. It is not vengeful at all. What if the tables were turned and you were in the OW's BH's shoes? Wouldn't you want to know?

We've had posters tell the BS's of OP up to 17 years after the affair.

Her BH needs to be told so he isn't in the dark. If he truly received your facebook message he would've asked questions, most likely.

Yes. Do not skip the most critical step.

Won't it just open up another can of worms? I am not sure how many more worms I can handle after 6 1/2 months.

So the other victim in this whole situation, that YOUR WH and OW put everyone in, doesn't have the right to know?

So OW gets to continue to abuse her BH and you're ok with that?

You need to make 100% sure that her BH knows.

I drove over to BH's house when he wasn't responding to my emails and texts. Guess what? His WW was deleting everything and so he would never have known if I hadn't drove over there.

I really don't care a bit about either of them. Seems backward for me to mail this letter after he sent her a real no contact letter.

I appreciate your feedback. I think I'm hesitant also because my H says he doesn't want it sent because he doesn't want to see me suffer anymore. Now that he sent the real no contact letter I feel relieved. After I send that exposure letter I'll get anxiety again. I'm a mess. I know. I think I will ask Steve on Monday. He wasn't even going to have H send the no contact letter, if you can believe that. He only asked him to send it since I told him it would help me move forward

Wow that poor unknowing BH.

I wonder why your WH wouldn't want that BH to know? Maybe there's more to know?

Have you heard the clip on what Dr. Harley says a WH must do to earn his BW back? Dr. H says the WH should go to everyone and tell them everything.

Here.
Ecellent radio clip where Dr. H talks about what a WH should do for his wife to give him another try after his affairs. He explains it like an addict.

Radio Clip on a WH on what to do to get back with his wife 3:50 mark

I'm sorry if I've confused you by posting advice that is contradictory of Steve's. I'll bow out on your thread and leave you to his direction. He's the one you need to be listening to.

I will also respect Steve's advice if he says not to expose to OW's BH.

I appreciate all the opinions and interpretations of all the principles. I know deep down I should send the letter. That's why I did the Facebook letter to him after she texted my H. I am very non confrontational so really this all goes down to fear. I learn so much from all you vets and drink up every piece of information I can so I can change our marriage, affair proof it, and build romantic love.

I know my situation isn't as bad as most out there, so I appreciate every single post you have made to me. If I didn't have you all, I wouldn't have made it through. So thanks, and please, keep your feedback coming!'

Just another update:

Appt with Steve Harley went well this morning. H is working on a Weakness Protection plan that he will send to me that will match is weaknesses with specific actions to protect himself from another EA.

I asked SH about whether or not I should expose affair to OW's BH. He says that because her last contact showed the indication that she would no longer be contacting my H that at this time it is not a necessary part of our recovery. All my focus should instead be on our marriage and affair proofing it with protections and strengthening our marriage. If she needs encouragement to leave him alone in the future (because she goes around the blocks we put into place) then we will notify her family. "Is it the right thing to do further down the road? For now let's just focus on making sure parameters are in place. "

We are moving from the injury treatment phase to the "exercise program". Learning and encorporatong the MB principles. We will be learning next about how connectiveness occurs. Sounds exciting. May be close to time to move the thread to the recovery board!

Thanks!

Another update (if anyone is listening):

We each met with SH Monday for our own individual sessions for about an hour going over the basic MB program.

I have been on AD meds about a week and it has helped me to stop crying and start focusing on meeting H's needs better. H has sent an email to the Scoutmaster to reduce his activity but will be taking a week long camping trip with them in 3 weeks. During this time I have told him I will need him to find a way to talk to me on the phone for at least an hour a day. He says he doesn't know if that's possible. Conversation is my top EN, so I am really not looking forward to him going away. Any suggestions for us would be appreciated.

Our biggest problem remains UA time and his love busters. He has undiagnosed ADD and just has a hard time focusing on all the aspects of MB at the same time while running a business. I am a stay at home mom, so I have more time to read the forum and listen to the radios show, which helps me stay on track.

Has anyone else had a big fear that at any time things will go back to the way they were?

Thanks,
TinT

You need to POJA this camping trip.

Can you go with him?

I will talk about POJA-ing the trip. Especially regarding him contacting me during the week. I have to stay home with my 3 year old, so don't see how I can go unless I bring him and my 15 year old, but the trip isn't for families so not too sure how that would work out since I couldn't stay with the troop.

I just want it to be over with. Wish I could spend the week at a beach with my other two!!! Once he gets back I'm going to start working for my husband in his office two days a week. Should be interesting and I'm looking forward to it. I miss working and the conversations I get with other people.

Thanks for always posting, Brainhurts. It means a lot.

Haha I understand because when I was first here I wouldn't get responses for days so I try and pay attention to those posters and see where I can help.

Is this troop with one of your children? Yes POJA the trip and contact.

Unless you're both enthusiastic about it then it doesn't happen.

Yes my DS13 is in the troop and going on the trip. It is 15 boys and 4 scout masters/assts. it is in preparation to go to Philmont next summer. For the past 2 years he has been an asst scoutmaster with increasing involvement, but also forcing my son to participate. DS13 only likes the camp outs and not the rest, so H has been forcing him to go to the weekly planning meetings.

After the trip, we've decided to let DS13 decide for himself if he wants to get his Eagle and H will slowly pull back involvement. I don't think it is right to force DS13 to do scouts if he doesn't want to. H thinks it is for his own good to make him complete it. Another area for POJA.

When we were Girl Scouts and my mother, a leader of our troop, had to be with us during camping trips, my dad always came with our younger sister. They camped nearby and it turned out no one minded at all. He hated being separated from my mother and found ways to be close without being in the way.

TinT -- Is your husband going to Philmont? If he is, there will be zero contact with you for 10 days.

I think this is something we will do in the future. Since they are leaving in under two weeks, I'm pretty much left to sacrifice once again. We just can't come to a mutually agreeable solution.

I do believe his plan is to go to Philmont. Have you been and will there be no cell phone reception there?

Question of the day regarding POUA:

Would you consider a group fitness class such as Body Pump as UA time, RA, or both?

Since you will be in a group, it's not UA time at all, even though you could be having lots of fun. These kinds of activities can be scheduled AFTER ensuring the minimum 15 hours a week.

Thanks for your reply. I was afraid this was true. We are working through the MB program and still we have trouble finding enough time for UA. We need to work harder and get more creative. This is what drove us apart and this is what will bring us back even better than ever.

My husband is having a hard time meeting my need for conversation. Some times our conversations seem superficial and I just don't get a sense that his head is all there. Many times I'll be talking and then I'll realize he has picked up his phone and is reading facebook posts or email. It really sends me a signal that he doesn't want to listen to me and he can't really talk in an intimate way. He does many of the other things to hit my top emotional needs, but conversation is my top need and I just don't feel close to him like I once was so our conversation isn't intimate. The conversations we share could be one I could have with any friend.

So my question is how do I address my issue with conversation without love busting him as his top EN is admiration and anything he perceives as criticism doesn't help him make changes? So much of what I say seems to come off as criticism of him.

Time for Undivided Attention means putting away all electronic devices, all distractions, and focusing on the conversation. Have you read this article about conversation? (not that I'm saying at all that your conversation is boring and unpleasant.) Conversation

The thing about ENs is that meeting them needs to be enjoyable for both spouses.

IC is likely not your H's top need and therefore you will need to be sure this time is pleasant and rewarding for him as well as for you.

First you both need to come to an agreement that UA time is time spent meeting the top four emotional needs, without distraction. No kids, no friends, no electronics.

Schedule your time religiously! Plan the activities during those UA times. Five steps to Romantic Love has a copy of the UA time chart. Here's the link about UA: Undivided Attention

What are your H's top ENs? If SF is one of them, Dr. Harley recommends plenty of IC before SF. Why? Because this is one way for a wife to feel bonded to her H. But it has to be enjoyable for the H, too.

Are your conversations pleasant and enjoyable, balanced, full of the friends of conversation while avoiding the enemies of conversation? Do the conversations include topics he enjoys?

One of our new habits is to have some of our UA time in bed, naked, just chatting and being affectionate. Many times, it does lead to SF, but sometimes it doesn't. Either way, H loves this time together. We never did this before, and now it's our habit. Certainly works to make our conversation enjoyable for him.

So how do I get him to balance the conversation and show interest in me enough to ask me questions? I have allowed lulls in the conversation and he doesn't use that time to ask me questions so then he looks at his phone again or I'll ask him another question and he'll continue talking about his topic. So I'm feeling disconnected.

Thanks,
TinT

Here are some good ones on Intimate conversation. Tell us what you think.
Radio clip on intimate conversation
Segment #2
Segment #3

Are you trying to talk marriage talk all the time?

Brainhurts,

The segments were great. Thanks for sharing them. We listened to them together and then I began trying to express my problem with our IC. I explained what I wrote earlier today about how I use conversation to investigate and that is why he is able to talk openly, however, when I leave a pause of time (30 seconds to as long as several agonizing minutes), he does not reciprocate. I told him how this makes me feel: like he isn't interested in me. After that he said nothing. I waited 5 minutes for him to say anything and he said nothing. Finally I said I'm going to brush my teeth and I did. When I came back into our room he was gone. I got into bed. Waited 10 minutes, he never returned. I snuck into the kitchen and there he is standing there reading his phone. I asked him what he was doing. He says reading. I just got so upset I said 'whatever' and went to bed.

No we really haven't been spending all our time talkig about our relationship. I really try to focus my investigative questions on his topics of interest. If he doesn't know what mine are after over two decades together, then it just seems hopeless to me. I am so so sad right now and alone, once again.

oh tnt, it's hard at first. my H isn't a talker either. at first, we focused on one thing: how was your day? i would ask him, and as he responded, i listened. later i started asked extending questions "really? what did he say to that?" mostly i didn't get much. but i knew that his interest was peaked at my listening with 100% attention - no book, no tv, no computer was drawing my attention away from him. i make a point to close/turn off anything i'm doing when we talk. and i remember what he's said previously, so i can bring it up again, "on monday so-and-so was considering ... what did he end up doing?"

then he asked me how my day went. i tried not to feel as if i were being interrogated. this is how he often interacted with me: how much did it cost? where did she go? what did you do alllll day (emphasis mine - that's how i felt). i kept my answers short and to the point, not going off on a tangent. i hid my frustration at the suspect-in-the-spotlight feeling i got from all the where/when/why/what/how barrage of Qs.

it also helped that i didn't talk about our relationship. instead, i offered replies to his "how was your day" question with stuff i knew was light, "you'll never guess what kind of car so-and-so bought!"

he used to reply with monosyllables: yeah, no, uh-huh, ok. this really hurt me, and i had to learn to disguise my hurt so that it wouldn't be a bad experience for him. once i did this, we got better as time went on. (yes, at first i went away and cried in frustration, but not so he knew!)

we are using our MC to help us work on conversation, which is terrific. at first he was reluctant, as if he was in the electric chair and was going to get shocked for the "wrong" answer. but as we (MC and i) worked on making the convo pleasant for him (no LBs!), he now is using strategies to extend conversation himself. this was a new learned skill for him - how to respond in a way that encouraged more conversation.

of course, this is an opportunity for me to provide admiration to him. "i really enjoyed hearing about ..." "i'm so pleased we were able to decide .." "i love that you remembered to ask about ..." "wow, you made me feel so much better about ...!" i have also found that the MB opener, "how would you feel about ..." is FAR superior to the old, "i feel (...) when you (,,,)." (an LB!)

yes, it is a fine line at first. the trick is to not expect anything from him emotionally *at first.* don't go into it thinking "i want some IC/i need some IC." just a response will do. say thanks, give him a kiss, and go do something. remember that you aren't trying to get a need met at the moment, you are trying to make IC pleasant for him. once he learns, emotionally, that IC isn't a minefield (where any male blunder will make YOU unhappy, which makes him feel crappy), it WILL improve.

if you told me 6 months ago my blokey-bloke mono-answer H would be having conversations with me, i would have made a wager he wouldn't!

remember, MB is behaviour modification. you can't change the behaviour without a reward. if you keep doing the same old (unrewarding) thing, you're not going to get the change you desire.

Fantastic post Letty

Also TinT when's your next appointment with Steve?

Thanks for the encouragement, Letty. I really need it tonight. I hope it will get better. I really feel that since we married this has been a big problem for us. I'm still hurt from everything he did (EA) and him sharing IC with another woman when he just doesn't do it with me at a deep enough level. We can talk fine about the kids and his work and our family schedule, but it just doesn't feel right. His top need is Admiration and I've read and read about how to do it right and I work hard at it every day. Also, SF, I make sure I am doing what he likes, initiating it more, etc, as he has said when I asked how to make it better. But he doesn't do this for me. Because it is my top EN and he is the only one who can meet it, I feel like I'm left high and dry and unfulfilled and disconnected from him when he doesn't show interest in it. I just wish I could understand why.

I'm pretty worried that he is hiding something from me again.

Thanks again, Letty!

Didn't he do a poly?

No he didn't do a poly. He said he would do one, anything to recover and agreed to my EPs. His reaction to me suggesting the poly didn't indicate he had any fear of taking one. I have a good sense of him and I could tell he was fine taking one, so I let it go. I never told him I wanted him to take one. I said that it was recommended he take one by MB and he said he would gladly take one.

He has been following my EPs. He has just seemed off the last two days, so I'm starting to panic, but I've looked at his phone records, his phone, and his email and found nothing. I'm thinking that what is going on is the finances. We just found out we will owe more than a new car for our daughter's surgery. The insurance didn't cover much of it. If he is worried about it, I wish we could talk about it. I have asked him if there is anything bothering him and he is insisting he's just tired.

Our next appointments are Monday and Friday and then he leaves Saturday for 8 days on the scout trip.

aw, thanks ladies :*) my face is the same color as my toes! i'm glad i could help.

TNT, maybe you could start with something like: "wow, i can't believe how the insurance company has left us high and dry (shows you together against them). i'm worried about how this will affect our family finances, and i bet you are too (invites him to open up). how do you think we should budget to be able to afford the extra costs? (asking for his opinion/input)"

or if you handle the family finances, you could amend the second bit to: "how would you like me to amend the budget to handle these costs? what can i do to make this easier on us?" or offer a suggestion on how the bill can get paid (can you ebay anything?) appeal to his sense of "i'm the father of this household,"

avoid ANY and ALL LBs. don't react negatively to any of his suggestions "say what?" "are you kidding?" "you know we can't part with that; it's a family heirloom!" instead, reciprocate. "it would be so sad if we had to let grandma's (whatever) go. maybe we could sell the ... instead?"

break out your actual budget/paperwork and put your heads together over it. if he's like my H, he will balk at first. he hates budgeting. but putting HIS opinion in the front of any statement/question will help him open up to you (hopefully!) my H also hates being worried over finances. it keeps him up nights, and he previously wouldn't discuss it with me at all. ("i didn't want you to worry about it too." "hey, lover, we're in this together! (took hand, kissed him) it's not just your worry/problem. we're a team! now let's see...")

it's helpful to look at worst-case scenarios and then back out from them with steps to see how else the situation can be handled.

on the bright side, TNT, if it is finances that are worrying him, that's a better-than-you-thought thing, right?

Having another bad day. I caught my husband in a lie and I'm really upset about it. Basically he has some things from home that he borrowed for a work event last month that he never brought home because he kept forgetting. Well we are having a bday party here for DS4 tomorrow and I needed the things brought home and was nearby his office, so I decided to pop in unannounced and pick them up. I texted him from the parking lot and asked him if he brought the stuff home (in case he did and I hadn't noticed). It was also a way to know if he was in a meeting with a client if he didn't answer. I went up the stairs and he texted a reply as I was walking up saying the stuff was already in his car. I thought, "Oh well, I'll go in and say hello anyway." Well as I come to his door, he opens it and he's carrying the stuff out. He lied about putting it into his car. It was still in his office when he sent the text.

Now obviously I would never had known any different if I hadn't been there. He led me to believe that he hadn't forgotten afterall, that I was nagging him to bring it, when he actually had not only forgotten, but lied about it too. If I hadn't been there to witness it, I would have thought he had already done it and I shouldn't have bothered him about it. But no, he lied.

He has lied about so many things throughout our relationship and this little lie makes me not believe anything he says. He lied to make himself look good and he lied to make me look like a nag. I just don't know if I want to live with a liar when my 2nd EN is Openness and Honesty. The honest reply to my text would have been, "Oh I forgot. I have a break, I'm going to to put them in now." To which I would have replied, "Oh well I was in the neighborhood and stopped by to pick them up so you wouldn't have to worry about it." It would have been a win-win and a way to make up for him completely neglecting me last night and choosing to read his phone and sleep on the couch instead of talk to me.

If he lies about little things like this to make himself look good, what else does he lie about. And even when I called him out, he denied it. He cannot be trusted. I'm heartbroken, again.

I am thinking I am going to schedule that Polygraph afterall.

My old, uncaring, rude, selfish husband is back. The one who lies and cares only about his own agenda. The one whose words and actions don't match. The one I wish would leave me alone because he hurts me. Being alone is much better than the pain. And he has to act this way before a big party here tomorrow. Just wonderful.

"I'm not a bad person," was the last thing he said.

Have you seen this?
How To Negotiate When You Are an Emotional Person

There is reception at base camp, and if he preserves his battery he may get some at the upper elevations, but the reality is you won't hear from him for a very long time. And chances are good that if he does call you while on the trail it will be very brief and it will be about what's going on with him.

Additionally, because he's the Scoutmaster, the days leading up to the trip will be all Philmont all the time -- packing, managing the paperwork/forms, answering questions from the Scouts, etc.

When he comes back, he will want to share with you this fabulous amazing experience he had. The two weeks of regular life you lived will be water under the bridge and not mean much compared to how he spent his time. This will be more annoying because after 10-14 days of having him gone you will be in your own routine, have your own flow, be used to handling things, so no matter how much you miss him, having him come back in to that will be an annoyance. Add to that the disconnection and it'll be a very frustrating time for you.

Have I been? No. Have I lived through what I'm describing to you? Multiple times. Not every guy who goes to Philmont will behave this way but yours will. I have identified with so many of the things you have said in relation to your husband and his focus on himself that I feel completely confident that what I describe will be accurate in your situation. It won't be deliberate on his part ... I'm sure he'll have the best of intentions to not let it happen ... but that's how it will play out.

Brainhurts,

I have read this several times and conclude that we are both emotional people. That makes it very hard to address complaints in our marriage. When I discuss something that needs improvement I am punished with a withdrawal of him meeting my intimate emotional needs. It hurts and I don't know how much more I can take.

Wow. That sounds pretty much how I expect things to be when they leave on their adventure trip this Saturday. Only worse. I was wondering if it possible to have a photographer go with the group and I could fill that role. Not sure how that would work since there are limited slots for adults and kids. We aren't even sure at this point if they will still be involved. At the very least I wish DS13 would get Life Scout.

I will have H read your post and we can discuss it. I really appreciate you giving me a good idea of how it is going to go. What an eye opener!!

TnT, on the upside, this will give you plenty of opportunity to have pain-free conversation (on his side)! remember, no LBing, no expectations. let him enjoy the conversation, and you can ask plenty of extension Qs to show your interest!

agree with DB - a homecoming is often not pleasurable for those at home. not because of anything bad, but the homecomer feels like an outsider to those at home, and resentment can set in. you also don't want your H to feel like he is infringing on your family. you have what, 2 weeks?, to consider how you will integrate your H back into your homelife. make it smooth, not rocky. NO OAs! and good luck with the time away. don't overthink things :O)

H will be gone for 8 days. The trip was not done via POJA so major resentment there already. IC is my top EN, not his. He has always been able to talk freely about his interests and I can easily get him to talk. The problem is that he doesn't reciprocate and conversations tend to go to his interests. Him talking. Not me. I need to be heard. Him being gone and out of touch when we are still in a fragile state is not what is in the best interest of us. So I am not happy with him going off and spending 7 nights and 8 days away and out of touch when our recovery has only just started in May. He knows this and has expressed that he wishes he weren't going. But it is too late now. He is a driver of 6 boys plus another asst scoutmaster. No turning back now. I guess I'll see what life without him here is like. Not sure that will be a good thing.

ahhhh. sorry, i must have forgotten the part where HE talks. well. hmmm.

i suppose, then, you will be getting a taste of plan b, what it would be like should you ever have to do it. 8 days is a good long while. of course, it won't be plan b for him - he won't be living w/consequences, but out having a grand time. you're the one stuck at home. that sucks. i guess all i can say is make very minute you're alone in the home count.

Yeah I was thinking that too. Except I'll be home with DS4 and having to get DD15 to and from camp. H will be suffering some too and will miss me too, I'm sure. It also stinks that he used vacation time for that instead of a week long trip with me, which we really need. We counted up only 8 hours of UA time last week. I cannot believe we can't hit 15. It is so hard with a little one in the house and as it is DD15 watches him a lot. Having a hard time in so many areas!

ah, TnT, that's a bear. give me a few minutes and let me reread your thread. i feel like an old person - always confused!

TinT. Was this your final EP list and did you give it to H? Has he already gone on a scouting trip this quarter?

ok, tnt, i've reread your whole thread. i think i bowed out in the middle because our sitches were so similar.

it sounds like the coaching with steve is going well. it's great that you guys can afford it. did you speak with SH about the scout trip? i don't recall a post with advice on how to handle it?

your H has certainly got his fingers in a lot of pies. mine does too - he's an excellent provider for our family. however, it takes some time to rejig their brains into realizing that their Ms are just as/MORE important than *work.* that M is more valuable to the family than the job. this is hard for a man to get his head around, which is why it's great you have phone time with SH. but once you can get him to that space, it should get better. do you have a "safeword" you can use? when my H is being IB, we have a phrase we decided upon together for me to use to signal him that he needs to refocus.

you asked a lot of we ever get past that fear it'll all slide back to the way it was. i haven't been in recovery long enough to answer that Q, and it is a fear i have as well. i try to manage the fear by taking positive actions in dealing with it - upping UA time, more EN meeting, etc. also, practicing POJA is a great technique as well. if you practice on little silly things you can both laugh about (creamed corn or whole kernel? which restaurant to have dinner?), it'll be easier to apply when you get to a big thing.

it helps that my H is a homebody and isn't involved in stuff outside the home like yours is (all his pies are work related). your H needs to realise that doing lots of stuff means nothing gets the best part of you; you're spread too thin. he will need to reprioritise so that the M comes first. this will mean he will have to give up some of his current outside-the-home responsibilities. i'm sure SH will help you get there.

you asked about email support from SH. i, too, had the same experience when i went to plan b. i sent a reply email detailing the sitch, since it was sudden, but changed the subject line, and never got a response. i'm thinking the change in the subject line may have sent it to junk, even though by that time we had several emails back & forth in that thread. i imagine the amount of mail they get daily is astronomical.

i'm so glad you exposed. exposing to my Hs friends was key to changing his mindset. when HIS friends started telling him that his behaviour was unacceptable in a M, it clicked.

anyhoo, i hope that you guys get through the scout camp ok. perhaps you should have a SH appt set for when he gets back? like the next day? and you should tell steve you guys need to focus on H meeting YOUR needs. i went through this with my H too. he was getting all his needs met and was very happy. i had to point out to him that his needs and my needs were very separate things. a visualisation of the love bank emptying was helpful to him, as well as reviewing the EN worksheets with how i *specifically* want ENs met, and he is now much better at need meeting (if only i could get the sf more than 1s/week!).

sending good wishes your way.

He hasn't gone camping since April. This will be his camp out for the third quarter. He is saying tonight he is getting out of asst scoutmaster position. He says it is all or nothing so he must just pull out. The other dads are hard core and I don't think they do anything but scouting. He can't commit to that level at this time. Mostly because we still cannot get 15 hrs a week of UA. We schedule every week and fall short. Frustrating.

Lefty,

We have spent over $1200 on Steve and are in financial distress right now. We just got our daughter's medical bills from her surgery and we now owe over $20K and have no way to pay it. SHarley is going to have to go on hold and I may be interviewing for a few jobs that are open in my field. I wanted to work in his office but I can make more and we'd get cheaper health insurance if I worked for a hospital so I will most likely need to step out of stay at home mom mode and start working to help pay off the immense bill. Plus I mentioned earlier that part of my husbans's SSL was to lie about things financially so we are already in big time financial trouble. He says he can handle it but he can't.

Yes we need Steve, as we fall apart when we aren't talking to him, but unless we win the lotto, we can't continue to spend when everything is maxed out. It is such an awful thing since one of my top 5 ENs is financial support. Definitely not being met.

I just want him to stay the course and stick to the hard road. It will take two years to recover and he seems to quit at any road block. I need him to carry me sometimes. I need him to stay focused and that is hard. Yes I worry all the time about going back to the old way. I'm already pulling away since I know he'll be gone 8 days and unable to meet my needs and my LB balance is still low. I know him being away is going to make me worry a lot. At least I know he'll be with all men except one married couple is going too. I wish I could go! I love camping!

Thanks for your support! It is nice to have a recovery buddy. Maybe he'll read this and see your suggestions! Hugs, girl!!

well, let's not get carried away! i see in your previous post that he is giving up scouting. this is a good thing for your M. i hope that he is not being shirty about it ("well, fine, then, i'll just give up scouting altogether!) and is instead thoughtfully considerate ("honey, we really DO need more time, just you and me. i've obviously spent too much time on things i *thought* were important, but aren't so much from this perspective.")

i'm sorry that in the middle of this you have to have an 8 day separation. but it does sound like he's trying to get it together?

the worse thing you can do is withdraw. you need to have him leave with a warm memory, not relief.

i hear you on the $$. we maxed out our CC on SH appts. my husband hated every minute of them, but they were so valuable in the long run. your DDs surgery illustrates the positives of "socialised" medicine, which we have here. if something is wrong with you, you don't have to beggar yourself to get healthy. i don't pay a higher "federal" tax for it, though i do pay a higher "state" tax. however, it's not that much higher than CA! and worth every penny (says the sickie).

lol, i wasn't going to say anything about H being away with all males, but see you did already! that is the upside, eh?

do try to make the most of your last few days, even though you're feeling empty. hopefully it'll balance out the other end when he returns.

Hate to TJ, but I didn't know it worked that way. It makes a lot more sense for state to collect the tax for the socialized healthcare though, it'll stop too many hands being in the pot...


/TJ

Letty is completely right. Do not withdraw just yet. Leave him wanting more of you.

Oh TinT. You guys have so much on your plate right now that I would imagine it must be hard to figure out which is making you feel more stressed. Don't let the EA be the automatic fallback for the stress in your house. I fell into that trap myself and it just sucked me down.

Try to focus on the positive things that he is doing and keep working the MB program. I know his scouting trip is a bad thing right now but he has decided to end the trips... so that is a good thing and won't be a problem going forward. Focus on that. Don't forget that the EP did allow this trip...so let him go and enjoy the last trip without guilt. Let him know how much it means to you that he is willing to end scouting to make you feel safe.


Keep working it TinT...give it time to work. UA time and a good laugh is the best medicine.

I wish he was giving it up, or at least saying he is giving it up, for us. But it is more of a "fine, I'll give it up since you are making me." And he is upset about it, but denies that. It makes me feel so guilty. I am a giver and want him happy. I'm not usually one to put my feet down regarding IB. But that is what got us in this situation. Scouts is just not good for our marriage right now. Until we recover and get at least 15 hours of UA a week on a regular basis, then our volunteer pursuits need to be dropped. I am also giving up my passion for a while, too. I have played soccer all my life and really enjoy it, but it is on Wednesday evenings when we could spend 2 hours of UA per week. We need those two hours, so it is going to go. We need our marriage strong more than I need to play soccer.

We were talking today about some things and it really is a lifestyle change. I made a few modifications to the EPs and we will be working through the "5 Steps" workbook once a week for a few hours instead of talking to SHarley (due to financial strains), and the rest of our UA will be fun stuff. Laughing and enjoying each other. Going to parks, going to dinner, listening to bands together. Stuff like that. Trying to get out of here and away from the house. These are all new things so they will require effort at first.

We are both withdrawing from each other due to a lot of issues right now, but we just discussed it at lunch (he came home to talk), andnowmthatbwe understand it, hopefully we can take some time alone together the next two nights enjoying each other.

Thanks pokerFace,

I will try to focus on the positive. But emotional honesty was an area I was lacking in so I do feel it is extremely important to tell him how I am feeling about everything going on instead of bury it to avoid a potential conflict. If I don't, then the problem gets bigger and bigger. So anything I am bothered by I am trying to address it in a kind way so he won't get defensive.

I am really looking forward to this giant thorn in my side to be gone so the resentment will be gone. Trying not to think about the fact that he signed up for this trip without considering how I feel, as that really was before he came out of the fog. But it is what it is and I got DS13 packed and have been running errands purchasing the little things they both need for the trip. I know they will have an amazing time going to the amazing national park for camping. I wish I could go too.

Okay, my husband is bothered by me posting here on the forum, and according to POJA I shouldn't do anything that makes my spouse unhappy. Does that mean I have to quit seeking help on this forum? I don't want him to be upset with me.

What exactly is your H bothered about with your posting on this forum?

My H was bothered as well at first, but when I asked him about it, he said he didn't like that I was doing it when he was home. He wanted to do things with me, not have me be on the computer.

Also, the forum often served as a trigger for me, which wasn't pleasant.

We agreed that I would be on the forum here mostly while he was away. If I was going to be on the forum briefly, I agreed that I would not point out all the triggery ones.

That's been working for us.

Now, if he was practicing IB and I was getting support on the forums, and he didn't like me being on the forum for that reason, I think I'd have to email Dr. Harley about that. MB principles state that the POJA is followed unless it has to do with reasons of health or safety.

well, that's not exactly how it's done, but i tried to explain it in a way that usa folks would understand.

but he HAS said it, right? if he's said it, and this is the last trip, you can't be bugging him about it - he's agreed to your condition. and you shouldn't be pressuring him about his feelings about it either. he's allowed to feel a bit put out until he sees the benefit of what that time is going to give him. you can ask him later, after a few weeks of UA time during when he would have been at scouts, how he feels about it then. asking now is just asking for trouble, and you don't need that.

i imagine your H isn't thrilled about you posting because right now he feels it's all about him being the bad guy, rather than a tool to help improve your M. my H didn't like it either. he felt i was "plotting" rather than, well, "fixing" myself. i too do not MB forum when he is home, and i don't want to, because it takes away from time i can spend with him. as a matter of fact, i make a big point to shut the computer when my H comes home, and only use it again if i have some work to do, or during a designated time (it *used* to be during my after dinner smoke).

hang in there, TnT, soon the 8 days will be over. do try and relax and spend some fun time together. you won't be sorry.

I definitely don't post when he is around. If he is on his phone facebooking, reading his email, or reading the news, I will read but rarely post. After he gets home, I will talk to him more about it.

I have decided to have my thread moved to the In Recovery Board.

We got out of the house for 2 hours alone last night from 8 to 10 pm. We did some shopping for his trip, but also browsed and looked around, joked and played with each other. It was really fun. After we got home and the kids went to bed, we had more time alone together. No marriage talk at all, although we did talk for a brief time about finances and my career path. All good discussions. Still trying to decide the best path for me to work.

Overall a great night. We have a date tonight after we feed the kids dinner. I can't wait! Then he is off at 6:30 am in the morning. Boo hoo.

I survived the first of 8 days without H. He gave me 7 letters, each labeled with the day and time to open it. The first one I read tonight at 9pm. It had a picture of us at a concert together in 2007. It melted my heart that he did this for me!

When he left today, he cried. Before the day I told him I knew of his EA, I'd only seem him cry a handful of times. Seeing him show emotion to me was a very big deal to me. As long as I have known him, he has struggled with expressing some of his emotions. He gave me openness and honesty, my 2nd EN!

Now if I could just sleep without him here. Obviously he's filled my love bank if I am lying here longing for his arms to be around me.

Well I am on day 4 with husband gone and am doing ok. Too much time alone means bad thoughts creep in. During two trips away from me last year, when he was in the EA with OW, he texted a lot with her when he was gone. So it is triggering a lot of bad memories. We haven't talked but maybe an hour total in 4 days. That is killing me. I have been getting some emails and some pictures, but when IC is your top need you feel resentment when it isn't getting met. He chose to go on this trip despite my objections and it has been hard on both of us. I'm trying to stay positive. It is hard.

The saying is " Distance makes the heart grow fonder." But I really believe that when you follow MB, and have the romantic love that we have developed, distance makes the heart hurt. I feel so broken when he is gone. Which is why Dr. Harley encourages the integrated lifestyle with no nights apart. It causes some withdrawal from each other and some pain. Especially for the one left behind. I really hope that from now on, there will be little or no nights apart from my love!

wow, that's fantastic! and a lovely day before as well!

so you think you're ready for the recovery board? great!

day 4+ and counting, right? you must be dying to open the envelope each day!

I am dying to read the letter each day. He is completely out of cell phone range, at first he was using a pay phone to call me, but then he realized there was wifi at a ranger's station so we can face time on our phones. He emails photos of the troop for their website, and I get a few words about his day each night via email. I had a good day yesterday, but today I'm lonely even after a group fitness class with two girlfriends and a swim playmate with DS4 and my mommy friends I've met this past year. Just trying to keep a positive attitude, but after 17 years of being left alone by him many many times, I don't like going back here.

How do I get this thread moved to In Recovery? I have hit notify 2 times and nothing has happened? Should I start a new thread there?

You can also try emailing the MODS, but notify should work. Try once more.

You made it over TinT. Welcome.

you made it! welcome to recovery!

Yay I made to switch to the recovery board!!!

I am on day 6 with H on the scout trip with DS13. We barely talked at all the past two days and it has definitely set me back. He would send me pictures via email with no captions, yet wouldn't email me any reply to the daily emails I sent him. I told him how frustrated I was getting via email. I basically feel just like I have most of our marriage. Abandoned by him while he engages in IB. I know h signed up for this long trip without using POJA and that means I am sacrificing and the resentment is building. When I didn't get much contact at all I shut down completely and refused to talk to him last night. I know it was wrong but I was hurting so much. It felt like the old days, pre-MB, so I just shut down. I emailed him, was unable to call him, and was completely alone. Also our 4 yr old is in a very difficult stage where he repeats himself over and over and asks questions about everything I do. I lost it. It hurt him when I didn't talk to him, but I had been waiting over 24 hours for an email and over 9 hours since we talked very briefly on the cell phone. I need more than that right now. We are still in a fragile state and working on recovery so this trip was awful timing.

I have talked to him today, but only about what I did and what he did. I am just so frustrated right now and hope we can get past this when he finally returns and we can actually talk and reconnect.

Recovery is going very well. We are doing great. We are making up for lost time from last week!

The OW BH responded to my June 12 facebook message regarding their relationship. He gave me his email address. I sent the information on, but am afraid that I shouldn't have done that. I'm now afraid it will somehow give her and her husband grounds for sexual harassment or something. Eek. I feel like I made a huge mistake, but definitely think the poor guys has a right to know. I just hope it wasn't her requesting the information.

Advice needed.