Hello all, this is my first post on this forum. I have been lurking here for at least a month, maybe more. We will have been married for 34 years next month, and in April, I discovered my husband's twelve year affair. I confronted him on May 7th... He denied it when first confronted, and then the next day he started talking.

When he did tell me the truth, he told me more than I had discovered on my own. It was worse than I had thought...it was almost �textbook� with what Dr. Harley lists on this site. It had been an on/off twelve year affair. They became �friends� first and then the PA just �started� one day in 2000...and kept on for two years before it cooled. They had NC for four years after that, then she called him out of the blue, he went running, and in 2007, they ended up in bed again. After that, the physical side cooled again. He said that he was (finally) feeling guilty for his actions but that he didn't know �how to end it�. Ugh. However from the looks of his phone records, it was ramping up again when I discovered the affair. They talked an average of 1.5 hours per day at that point.

He went NC within the first week of my confronting. Unfortunately, we had not yet found this site, and so we did not know to send a NC letter...he did it by telephone after I had blocked her number and email.

One of the things that kind of bugs me is that he did NOT seem to go through very much withdrawal. Maybe two weeks that I noticed. I asked him about it, and he said that he had already known that it was wrong and that since he �came clean�, he felt as if a weight had been lifted from his shoulders, and so he feels better. I check phone and email. We put a GPS tracker on his phone.

She is divorced so no notification of spouse. I did mail a letter to her adult children. We have told one of our adult daughters, but have not (yet) told our other daughter because she lives out of state and we want to tell her in person. Other than that, I have only told my closest friends and family, and we did tell my mother in law.

As for other just compensation, he did change jobs just so that he could be home earlier each night. The OP wasn't at his job, but now he is much closer to home each day. He texts me at least once during the day, and texts me when he leaves work. He has agreed to sell every vehicle that was ever at her house, although we haven't gotten to even prep them to sell yet because we are frankly working harder on the huge financial devastation that went unattended by him during his A. Once we spend time on that stuff, and aim for 2-3 hours of UA time per night, there isn't much time left in the day.

I thought that I was content in our marriage previous to D-Day, but now that we have read so much of Dr. Harley's material, we both see that we were withdrawn and had made our own �rooms� in our lives, and we didn't even let each other into each other's bedroom very often (to paraphase Dr. Harley's �LoveBusters� book).

I was figuratively bleeding to death during the first month after confrontation. We spent every waking hour together after my husband got home from work. He listened to my wails over and over, he answered my (same) questions dozens of times.

Once we found this site, we both realized that by learning the MB way, we can gradually change our habits so that we will be able to feel love again. My husband says that he is already back in love, but as for me...not so...until about two weeks AFTER I confronted, I can honestly say that my heart still skipped a beat every time that he walked into the room. But then two weeks in, everything just died for me. Maybe it took that long for it to all sink in after he told me the truth? I even see now after we have read so much, that I ventured into hate. But I think that now that we have done the EN questionnaire and he is trying to meet my EN, and now that we are starting to learn to STOP the LB, I think that I am back to teetering between conflict and withdrawal. I sure hope so, but sadly I still don't feel that �spark�.

My question for the experienced MB'ers is HOW LONG SHOULD I allow myself to remain in this funk and process these feelings before we try to move to recovery? It has been just shy of three months now, and I have been trying to NOT bring them up to my husband...and instead when I feel miserable...I have been telling him that �I need some affection right now�, or when I think about THEM having sex, instead of saying that, I have been telling him that �I need for you to talk about why you like being with me�. Etc.

Unfortunately for me, this is not cutting it. The other night, H told me that it is too soon and that he thinks that I need to still talk about it and cry with him holding me, so that he can re-assure me. I did that, and he did hold and comfort me...and I felt better when I woke up the next morning...but the devastation set back in during that next day. I don't get it because after about 6 weeks, I HAD been feeling a little better....and now this past week it feels like I am right back to D-Day.

The only thing that we can think of that may have caused it, is that last Monday night, hubby had promised to come up to bed in �a few minutes�...after he had taken the dogs out one more time. I woke up 1.5 hours later to no hubby in bed. I got up to find him...he was sitting outside with the dogs, throwing the ball for them. The next day we discussed this, and we realized that it was independent behavior and that neither of us can have this in our lives. We POJA'd it, and decided that from now on there will be a cut-off time with when the dogs go out for the last time in the evening. We still have to POJA more of it, but we are just learning POJA and negotiation skills, and so it takes us a while yet.

I don't see WHY this would throw me back to D-Day. Yes there are similar feelings. YES him �hiding� outside is a trigger since that is what he used to do so that he would call OW at night. But he WASN'T on the phone on Monday...he was playing with the dogs...I DID check the phone records and he had made no calls.

I've read of trickle truths causing people to slide back to D-Day feelings, but can a trigger do the same? Honestly sometimes I feel as if I'm already past gone insane. The �me� that was my constant companion for 51 years of my life, seems to be gone. Poof! I did have ovarian cancer surgery one year ago next month, and so I know that I wasn't totally recovered from that when this all hit, but I did go back to my gyn/oncologist last month, and he gave me a glowing report. So this feeling has to be all from the affair.

HOW LONG is it safe to allow myself to feel like this? I don't think that I am LoveBusting him any more when I bring up the A. He will ask what I am thinking, I will tell him (for example) that I am feeling sad because I was thinking of say a long ago vacation and feeling sad that during that time he was having an A when I thought that things were so great, he will remind me that we have EP in place and that we are doing POJA and PORH, and so that will never happen again. These conversations don't necessarily make me feel any better, but they DO make me feel heard. Should we stop them already? Dr. Harley says that once all of the questions are answered, to never bring up the affair again. Is three months enough time for me to force myself to move on?

I would have to force it, as I still routinely have dreams during my sleep that leave me waking up feeling over-the-top angry at H. I wake up feeling as if it just happened today, and I feel just as sad and angry as I did two weeks after D-Day. When I feel like this, I still don't know if I even WANT to stay married? How do I go about figuring that out?

We are getting at least 15 hours of UA. We WERE previously getting at least 25 hours, and I notice the difference. We are trying this week to go back to the 25 hours, but so far something has come up each day that interferes. I realize that WE have to stop those interferences, but we aren't doing a very good job of that (yet). As for dates, last week, we went out to dinner one evening, and another day we went to the park. We are trying to meet each other's EN, but I do think that we are still falling short (hubby seems to be floundering on my need for affection, and I seem to be floundering on his need for admiration). POJA and PORH we are both trying hard, but it is very new to us, as in the last 30 days, so we flounder on that a lot....however, we BOTH have been comfortable this past week to call each other on it when we miss the bullseye. As for eliminating LB, again it is new and we are trying, and we have called each other on them AND we respond kindly to the complaints.

Welcome to MB and so sorry for this devastation.

I'm glad you found MB. How did he meet this OW? What conditions allowed him to have his affair?

Will you and your WH email the radio show and both talk to the Harleys?



Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

I'm so sorry for your pain. Many of us here have gone through the same trauma and come out the other side. Some are divorced but recovered personally and others, like me and my H, have come out with a brand new marriage that is better than ever, following carefully the plan MB has to offer.


Is your father-in-law a part of your lives? He should know, too. How about your parents? Not only is this to help keep your husband accountable, it is also for badly needed support for you during this time. Most people say that an affair was the absolute worst thing that has ever happened to them.


The minimum UA time to maintain love is 15 hours per week. To build it, especially after an affair, the UA time should be upped to 20 - 25 hours per week. These hours should be scheduled every week and made top priority.


Many people have this kind of marriage. They live together as two independent people and figure they're happily married. (We were the same way.)But in reality, they aren't integrated nor are they in love with each other.



It is quite normal for this to happen. You were already probably doing a good job of meeting your H's emotional needs. It was easy enough for him to fall back in love with you once the OW was out of his life. For you to fall in love with him is a much bigger task. His account in your love bank (to use Dr. Harley's terminology) suffered a huge drop when you found out about the affair. It is probably negative right now and it will take time and the meeting of your ENs consistently and persistently for you to fall in love with him. AND the elimination of Love Busters.


Your responses to your triggers are correct. After we have all our answers, we are not to talk about the affair anymore. You need to know the conditions that led to the affair so each condition can be eliminated. You need to know where it took place, the time period, who knew about it and didn't tell you, and anything else that will shed light on this tragedy. Once you have your answers, it is very important (and very hard, yes) to never bring it up again.

There isn't an answer for how long. Every day in the right direction is a step toward recovery. One day you will look at him and realize you are actually in love with him again. This actually depends on how good your H is at meeting your needs and avoiding love busters.


Your husband doesn't understand how to recover from an affair. He believes it helps you to talk about it, but it actually hurts. It's in the past and the past can not ever be repaired and changed. You can only fix the present so that the future is better.

I talked about it, too, and was VERY VERY angry and railed at my H. Now, thankfully, he "took" it and always expressed remorse. Many unfaithful spouses can't or won't respond this way. He described my anger later as a love buster to him, although he completely understood where it was coming from. It didn't make things better. It always made things worse. Talking about it never made me feel better; it always brought back the pain. That's the way our memories work.

The Harleys said in a radio show that they rarely talk about the past, even though they have had a great past. Joyce said that when they reminisce, they have a tendency to get maudlin. You and your H really have to concentrate on the present and the future.


You two are "getting it." Your H's being away from your bed was a trigger. Once you discover your triggers, each of them need to be eliminated. Sounds like you are in the right direction.


There are many many triggers out there: movies, music, certain expressions, vehicles, places, behaviors, and the list goes on. And not coming to bed when he said he would. So yes, continue to work on the POJA.


Trickle truth is devastating to a marital recovery. Many betrayed spouses on this forum sign up for a polygraph so they can get the whole truth and then be done with it.

Affairs change people. My husband and I both feel very different from the pre-A folks we were.


Once you have ALL your questions answered, you should not discuss the affair any longer. It is an enemy of good conversation. Your brain is likely to be hammered for some time to come as you proceed through the recovery period. You need to learn to control your thoughts and focus on today, today, today. I had to do the same. Constantly, daily, hourly. I had to tell myself over and over again "look what he's doing NOW." Over and over again....


Again, totally normal, I'm sorry to say. You are on the roller coaster and you will suffer many emotional highs and lows. It may be very helpful for you to see your doctor and get a short-term prescription for anti-depressants. A proper prescription will simply help your emotions to become more even; you will not feel strange or drugged. There are some good ones that have very little to no sexual side effects. It can be just for a few months until you're past the first stage of recovery.

We found that recovering from an affair is a lot like grieving. People grieve when they find their spouse has been unfaithful. Loss of the sanctity of the marriage and the betrayal of trust is a devastating loss. It takes some time for the truth of this to simply sink into the brain. Then we often get very angry. It's the anger phase we have to really watch out for. We are insane when we're angry and can hurt our spouse and make terrible decisions. This is the time to learn how to be calm under great pressure.


Sounds like you two are on the right track. Do you have the Five Steps workbook? It has some excellent worksheets where each spouse can fill in the specifics.

Recovery is a journey, not a destination. It will take a couple of years at the minimum for you to feel less resentment. The better the present is, the less you will resent what he has done.

Does your H have a list of Extraordinary Precautions that he abides by? The EPs are part of Just Compensation and are very important to prevent another affair. He should not just block his number; he should change all contact information, making it impossible for the OW to ever contact him again.

Here's a good show.

Radio Clip of A Ten Year Affair
Segment #2
Segment #3

Hello BrainHurts and LongWayfromHome, thank you for your responses!

I have to tell you that I have read both of your stories previously. You were such an inspiration! You both display such truths and positive attitudes (and you have all along), so thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your stories so candidly. I learned a lot just by reading.

H met the OW back in 1998 when he did some work for her. The conditions that allowed him to have his affair were that we did not have any EP in place in our marriage (neither of us did). We both had times for our work when we had to spend lots of alone time with people of the opposite sex.

Dr. Harley is RIGHT when he says that anyone can have an affair. Same old tragic story from what I've read about here in most every affair. We did not take the Eps to prevent an affair.

H and OW gradually developed a friendship and by 2000, both started meeting each other's emotional needs. For H, first it was the need for Admiration, and then once that was in place, all of the other needs followed suit.

As far as both of us writing to Joyce Harley and being on the radio show, I will speak with H tonight to see what he feels about it. I think that it may be a little difficult for myself (I am still breaking into sobs at the drop of a hat), but I may be willing.

My Father in Law and my Mother are both deceased. I realllllly would prefer not to tell my father if I can get away without telling him. He has had some huge life tragedies lately (to do with other family members and including my Mother's death), and he is just now bouncing back. I am his only daughter, plus he grieved so horribly with my cancer last year. It's not that he wouldn't support me (and us)...it's that he is 82 years old and I don't want this to put him over the edge. Your thoughts are welcome on that, thank you.

Yes, we definitely notice a difference with less than 25 hours per week UA time. It's not for lack of trying...it's that H ignored our finances ever since I had cancer and couldn't work, and now the creditors are at our door. I contacted all of my creditors months ago and made arrangements, but H never had. Now he is...and so has to take phone calls and make phone calls regarding that business. However there has to be a way around it constantly butting into our time together....so we will POJA that subject tonight.

Yep, we definitely were not integrated. We each had our own lives. H had realized this before, but that truth was a real eye-opener to me (when we read that section in LoveBusters). Truly with what I know now, I would NEVER have accepted living �less than� back then. We used to fling so many LB'ers, that we both just went to our corners and lived our lives.

We have discovered as we go along that many seemingly innocent things now do turn out to be triggers for me....and often (like the playing with the dog thing), it seems to take us a few days to figure out that it WAS a trigger. We definitely need to get better at finding a way to investigate odd feelings like that so that the two of us can figure out what is a trigger, and then what to do about it? Obviously remove it...but as in the dog thing, the dogs DO have to go out at night, and so we POJA about timeframes, and how to keep even THAT in a �transparent� mode. Everything feels so difficult right now as we are learning.

>>Once you have ALL your questions answered, you should not discuss the affair any longer. It is an enemy of good conversation. Your brain is likely to be hammered for some time to come as you proceed through the recovery period. You need to learn to control your thoughts and focus on today, today, today. I had to do the same. Constantly, daily, hourly. I had to tell myself over and over again "look what he's doing NOW." Over and over again....<<

VERY well said and yes I can do that. I am seeing now that maybe there are some more things that I do need to ask (read below), and then I must lay it to rest. It makes perfect sense what you said about the affair focusing on the past and thus dragging up all of the feelings AGAIN will cause me to feel badly. Things ARE already better in our M than pre-affair, so it WILL help me to focus on now and the future. Thank you.

Hammered Brain, hahaha, not at all minimizing it or making ANY fun because yep, my brain is hammered. That just gave me a little chuckle.

Yes, the anger stage is definitely here. I look at him and feel huge resentment and disgust right now. VERY good point about being aware of those feelings so that I do something else besides rail at and LB him. I have already been practicing what Dr. Harley spoke of regarding practicing relaxation (I am meditating alone in a quiet room each day) while we are thinking of something yucky. That is as far as I've gotten so far, but I do think that since I've been doing this daily (for only two weeks now), that it IS helping me to recognize when I feel like railing at H. Most times I can keep it in check, and for the times that I feel as if I can't keep it in check, we have (so far) worked together to achieve a �time out�. <----AMAZING!

Yes we have the Five Steps Workbook. We read together every single night, a part of a chapter and then we talk, talk, talk.

We are only a little over 1/2 way through reading LoveBusters so far, and we have only used one of the Workbook questionnaires. I know that we have missed working on the LB questionnaires in the workbook, but we thought that maybe there was a point in the LB book where it specifically tells us to DO the questionnaires?

THANK YOU for linking that radio show. Wow, Roger's story is very similar to mine as far as timeline and also in that he Roger is 3 months after D-Day. Plus it was as Dr. Harley calls it a �monogamous� affair. In effect my spouse had �another wife�. Ugh I hate to even write that, but yes it feels exactly like that.

I have emailed that show to H so that he can listen on the way home from work.

What I picked up from the show: So NOW I need to get to know H as the man that he really is. He must feel safe to be able to expose himself in a way to me that might add insult to injury (as Dr. Harley put it on the show). I need to ask about the role that I played in his life as opposed to the role that OP had in his life. Ugh, I haven't even thought of that prior to hearing this radio clip. H needs to explain the things to me that he kept from me before (about himself, not the A).

Thank you, THANK YOU very much for sharing that radio clip with me. It was hugely insightful.

Wow, my friend you write so much like our friend LongwayFromHome, with such grace that I love to read your writings. I don't like to read about Your pain because you write and I can feel your pain.

I can tell you've been studying and reading MB and I think as long as your WH is onboard to do the work that your M will be recovered. But I also believe that you, my friend, will find personal recovery.

Don't worry about crying if you were to go on the show, the Harleys are wonderful and are so very caring. Joyce and Dr. Harley will actually call and talk to you personally before the show and they will know if you need time.

I think you will find them wonderful.

I know money is tight right now for you and other than the online program or MB coaching, this is the best way to have access to Dr. Harley for free.

I thought there was a follow up show for Roger and his wife and I will try and find it.

Have you read the managing memories and triggers thread yet?

Here it is. Listen to the clips I posted towards the end about flooding.

Managing Memories and Dealing with Triggers

Has your WH changed all his contact information? Other than OW's adult child who else did you expose to on her side?

Welcome to Marriage Builders, BlindSighted. You've come to the right place to recover your marriage.

You and your WH both seem to be on the right path, although your UA time is too low. Work on building that up to 25-30 hours per week.

What you are feeling is a normal part of recovery. We call it the rollercoaster. One day you're 'up' and confident that you're going to make it, and then the next day you're 'down' and convinced that you'll never be able to repair your marriage. This will pass. Please understand that it takes 2-5 years to recover from the damage of adultery. You need to be committed to the ebbs and flows that come with recovery.

There are things you can do to help yourself along the way. The first one is to stop talking about the affair. It is counter-productive to keep bringing it up - I know from experience, because I made the mistake of bringing it up over and over in our early stages. That didn't help us - it hindered us. I had to learn to STOP IT. That's when things really started to click.

Understand this: there are things you want to know: WHEN did they meet? "What about this day, or that day? What did you say to her? What about the time...?"

To continue asking these questions is not productive to your recovery, but are a hindrance. I stop just short of comparing them to trickle-truthing: just when your H thinks you've gotten your questions answered, you blind-side him with another question. It's like 'trickle-questioning' - that's unhealthy for your recovery.

You need to understand the nature of an affair, and to understand that we are ALL wired for affairs. The fact is that your husband had one, and you are now in recovery. (And I'm wondering if your thread shouldn't be moved to the Recovery thread, so you can get recovery-oriented help there - just a suggestion.)

As far as triggers go: you're going to get those. They're a part of the rollercoaster and are your mind's way of protecting you. Those will lessen and eventually fade as you recover. During my H's affair, he took the OW to a little Italian restaurant that he and I enjoyed frequenting. After D-Day and full disclosure, I couldn't imagine going there. The thought was a trigger for me. Even being on the highway that led to the restaurant was a trigger for me. A few years later we had a great dinner there - and reclaimed the restaurant as our own. This will happen for you as well - you just need to work through the emotional rollercoaster that comes with recovery. I'm sorry - if I could take that away from you, I would in a heartbeat, because I know how it feels.

Stay with us and we'll help you through recovery.

Thanks, your compliment warmed my heart. Hopefully as we all stay on the MB path, our pain will lessen and turn into happiness. I'm trusting on it based on how much relief that we have felt since finding MB.


We talked a bit about it last evening. I think that for now, we are both more comfortable with just sending an email. We will do that.


We would LOVE it, thank you!


Wow BrainHurts, thank you. I listened to all of those clips, and I have forwarded them on to my H today.

Segment #2 on the radio clip on Triggers is chalk full of great direction towards stopping the A discussion. I found it very interesting that when Joyce suggested that they would send the caller �Surviving an Affair�, Dr. Harley stepped in and said �nope, he doesn't even want to send that book to her, because he doesn't want her going back there now (after five years)�.

I need to substitute an alternative thought whenever I start thinking about the A.


No, he has not changed his cell phone number. That is his contact number for business, and it really would wreak havoc to have to change that. I so far have not considered that to be vital, but now that I am typing this response, BOY I really don't want to take the chance and kick myself five years from now about it.

I only exposed to the OW's adult children on her side (she has two). She is 65 and not on FB or any place online that I could find info regarding extended family. She did not seem to be very computer literate. I'm okay with having just exposed to her children. Am I being careless by not investigating further?

Thanks maritalbliss for your reply.

Yes, H and I made a schedule last night so that we will get our hours in each day. We even padded the schedule a little bit to allow for unforeseen interruptions. It made me feel very cared for.


All good points, and I needed to read that today, thank you.


Points VERY well taken...haha to trickle-questioning, again well said. Now to STOP it...I needed to come to this site I think, because prior to now, I really knew that I had to stop bringing it up, but I allowed myself that leeway thinking that it was "too soon". I totally appreciate everyone sharing their paths so openly...and I am not going to mentally argue with the advice of long term recovered (yay!) people, so I definitely am going to STOP it. I'm sure that I will stumble a bit, but then I will come here and ask for help.

For right now, I am going to try my bestest to substitute that thinking for the NOW thinking. TODAY hubby is being loving. TODAY he is being attentive and affectionate, etc.


AWE!~ Talk about a warm welcome here. Thank you! I am truly in awe that you were able to reclaim that restaurant as your own. What an inspiration to read!

Okay, the rollercoaster is normal...that one day I think that we can do it and then next (or even the same day), I think HECK NO. That is part of recovery....so that is a GOOD thing! If no rollercoaster, then we wouldn't see that we ARE doing the correct work for recovery.

If you two can swing the expense, the Online Seminar Course is really good. We completed it in about a year. Reading the posts in the Weekend Seminar Forum is so helpful and you can post to Dr. Harley there, where he will answer your questions directly within a few days. The coach will help steer you in the right direction and provide accountability.

Each LB and each EN has several worksheets that correspond with it. So after reading the chapter, each of you would fill out the worksheets.

Have you already filled out the Marital Problem Analysis to determine what the key problem areas are? If not, that's a good place to start. That way, you can dive right into a particular Love Buster. Or Emotional Need that could improve.

We started with Surviving an Affair, then moved to Anger, since that was my big one after D-Day. We worked our way through the rest of them, even the ones that hadn't been a problem.

I ran into a big obstacle when it came to not bringing up the affair. Bringing up the A tended to lead to my AOs. Finally, I spoke with our coach and we agreed that we would take a break from LB, since we had covered our serious problems and go into the HNHN chapter on Intimate Conversation. We read through the chapter, a couple of pages each night. Then I made copies of the corresponding worksheet about Friends and Enemies of Good Conversation. Every day, I started with a blank sheet. Sometimes I ended the day with a few "enemies" listed. I'd think about how that happened and start all over again the next day. There were still times I brought it up, but there were many many MORE times I was thinking about it and NOT bringing it up, so at least it was proceeding in the right direction. It seemed obvious to me after a while that I had to find ways to redirect my thoughts.

My H agreed with me to help me by always, very gently and kindly, telling me that the conversation was no longer pleasant and that we need to stick to following the plan. Then we'd change the subject or the venue.

Recovery was very hard, the hardest process I have ever been through, but the end result, where we are now, is worth all the effort. We just can't get over what we call our "new" marriage. My H says, correctly, that the old marriage is now dead, that we are, in a way, newlyweds.

You two both know so much more about how a great marriage works and what it will take, and how Extraordinary Precautions will help avoid an affair.

As long as each of you keep making the right choices every day, every hour, every minute, putting your marriage first, above everything else, you will be heading in the right direction.

Yes, we are hoping to be able to do that soon. We don't really have the funds, but since it is so important, we are setting aside a (small) amount each week. We have almost $40 saved already. I had not realized purchasing that would also allow you to read and post in the Weekend Seminar Forum. I can see how that would be very helpful.

NO! I had not realized that there was such a form. It doesn't appear to be in our Five Steps to Romantic Love Workbook. But I just did a google search and found it. Thank you for mentioning it. I have printed it off and we will take it with us on our little drive tonight. We are having a "date" drive where we will go and see the lights of a nearby city and then stop for dinner on the way home. Cheap date and we already had planned to read the book and talk for a bit on the way.

I can see how difficult that it is going to be. Today is my first day at not bringing it up. This morning went fine, but that was just passing with our coffee cups. TODAY (while H is at work) I have been practicing changing my mental mind tapes. It is so difficult. It's like this has "defined" me for the last four months now (I had discovered before confronting), and so it's almost like NOW WHAT? What else do I think about?

Funny that you mention Intimate Conversation... I realized as I was thinking today, that although I am always thinking that H is not giving ME enough IC, truly I am not very good (lately) at thinking of anything else to talk about besides the A. So I made a list of questions for myself to glance at tonight while we are together. I hope that some of these questions will help H to feel as if I still am trying (even though I waffle a lot in the withdrawn state).

I tried to search the forums here to see if anyone else had come up with a list of questions. I did not find any, but I am sure that there are some. In any case, I will copy and share mine in my next post here.

Great idea! Love the idea of saying it as "following the plan". It is! And that way it need not feel judgmental at all.

Love reading this! It seemed from my reading your old posts, that you started to feel pretty good about each other after maybe 9-10 months of working on MB. I didn't just now go back and read, so I apologize if I've got that wrong. Just curious about how long you feel that it took you before a good portion of the anger and grief started to abate?


Yes, I do feel that we are both putting our marriage above all else. H has times where he seems to focus on DO-ing things around here (which he has neglected for twelve years), and YES I do want those things done...for instance this weekend we are going to try to stain our deck...BUT to me I feel that focusing on the things that need DONE takes away from our UA time. So in that specific situation, I do feel that sometimes he is momentarily not focusing on "us" first....but when I bring it up to him, he quickly agrees and gets back to focus.

We try to go middle-of-the-road right now and plan one small project each week, as opposed to something every night.

Right now, I am extraordinarily sensitive, and every little thing can rub me the wrong way. It's like my boundaries went on hyper-drive, and so I complain about anything that bothers me. MB tells us that complaints are good (criticism is not), and we do talk about it in a loving way and POJA things...it's just that then when we work on projects together right now, I feel that everything is sooooo difficult due to so many of my "wait, we need to talk about this because when you just said this, I felt...".

So that's where we are today. Thank you again for sharing your time and your story with all of us. It is very appreciated!

My little list of questions for Intimate Conversation: (other ideas and/or suggestions welcome!)

1. If you could have an ideal situation for recovery, what would you like it to be?
2. What are you feeling most hopeful about for our future?
3. What did I do recently that made you feel loved?
4. What did I do recently that made you feel badly?
5. Tell me some things that you especially like about me.
6. What would you like our M to look like in one year? In 2 years? In 5 years?
7. What are you most proud of yourself for?
8. What are you most proud of me for?
9. What is your fondest memory of doing something with your Dad?
10. What is your fondest memory of doing something with your Mom?
11. What are you most content with in your life right now?
12. Who was the relative that influenced you the most in your life? Why?
13. How do you feel about us spending so much time together now?
14. What are you most anxious to get accomplished on the house?
15. What motivates you to go to work each day? What is the hardest thing about your new job? What is the best thing?
16. What do you feel is one (or more) of your biggest strengths? Biggest weaknesses?
17. What topics would you be interested in us both learning more about and then discussing together?

I had a difficult time wanting to "probe" for any more discovery about H's past...I am too new at this and don't want to accidentally trigger A feelings. We used to talk non-stop about our families, what it was like growing up, etc. I guess I just don't want to go there right now (I have a bit of resentment about how my mother in law has responded to the A). So that is why not too many "historical" type questions.

Trying to focus on the present and future!

We sometimes ran into road blocks, too. We once owned a game called "The Ungame" and there were piles of cards with questions. I copied a lot of the cards and kept them on hand for ice-breakers. Then I found they came in handy when we needed a little help in the conversation department. I actually have a bunch of them on a spreadsheet.

Here are a few light-hearted questions we enjoyed talking about together:

If you could change your age, what age would you rather be?

If you could live anyplace in the world, where would it be?

If money was no object, where would you like to travel?

If you had to move and could take only three things with you, what would you take?

What is your favorite song?

If you were a doctor, what ailment would you like to cure?

Name two famous people you would like to have for parents.

Share three things for which you are thankful.

What is your favorite party game?

What kind of job do you want to have in 20 years?

How would you change the world to make it better if you had enough power?

If you were lost in the woods and it got dark, what would you do?

Of course, only we can really define what meets our needs. And then sometimes it's hard to tell just what does, because sometimes it takes a lot of that need being met to get the necassary emotional reaction.

That can make Intimate Conversation seem daunting.

One thing is starting with this article;

Conversation is Boring (Meeting the Need for Conversation)

Second, I did some digging about conversation and intimacy. What I found helped in 2 ways; it reduced stress as to how "deep" intimate conversation is or is not, and it allowed us to know how and where to develop boundaries in conversations with people outside the marriage.

Just going to straight quote here instead of citing;




These are my thoughts concerning IC and the progresson through these stages;

At stage 3 you are in intimate conversation. In stage 2, you are opening the door. These 2 stages, in regard to the friends of good conversation, are informing and investigating your spouse. These should be daily aims in conversation with your spouse. Good conversation in levels two and three aid in progressing to levels 4 and 5.

Levels 6 and 7 are the deepest, but aren't particularly going to be constant, daily conversation. They are, however, where you are going to be when you communicate your needs and/or complaints.

So, for the most part, hitting 4/5 during UA time should be fulfilling IC.


On boundaries;

Conversation with people of the opposite sex should probably never progress past level 2. At level 5 you are looking at a high risk for LB$ deposits and the lure of infidelity.

Really great post, HHH!

X2

Triple H!!!!

I third that! WOW WOW WOW!!

Thanks to both LongWayfromHome and HoldHerHand for sharing your vast experience and ideas. There is so much info here that this will provide IC ideas for a long long while.

H expressed last night that he feels frustrated that our UA time is taking up so much of our time that we don't have the time to do anything regarding repairs on our house. We did manage to powerwash the deck this weekend, but H had hoped to be able to repair/replace old boards last evening, and by the time that we had 3.5 hrs of UA time, and ate dinner, played with the dogs, it was past time to get ready for bed (this had not been scheduled on our UA schedule...and H had not discussed it...he had just hoped that we would have extra time).

H's frustration triggered me for a bit (and I will speak with him about that this evening). As the BS, I want HIM to guide our recovery. I want HIM to guard our UA time, and I want HIM to do the work of being sure that he does what is needed so that I am feeling "level" (I know that I can't expect yet to feel "good", but level is okay with me since level doesn't include PTSD symptoms).

His complaint about UA time taking up so much of our lives feels badly to me...he didn't put it disrespectfully or demanding...he put it as "can we maybe do both?". He wants me to read the book out loud while we are doing something else mindless at the same time? He meant as in I sit on the deck and read while he is screwing in new boards. We DO usually read while we are driving, and so to him this is the same thing....we DO stop and talk, talk, talk about the material and usually spend more time talking than reading.

The deck idea though isn't what UA time is for, is it? Undivided attention means no other interferences, correct? But then on the other hand, people go to dinner and that is UA time and they still eat and take the time to look at the menu, haha, okay I am splitting hairs here it sounds like...so what does everyone think? CAN we actually do some mindless work around the house while we are say, asking each other some of the questions that are listed above?

Another question...Shark Week is on the Discovery Channel right now. We are both interested and H thought that maybe we can use that for UA time since we DO sit and discuss and talk about it while we are watching it. Does watching a tv show or a movie qualify as UA time IF it is something like this that does stimulate conversation?

Blindsighted2013,

I want to caution you against thinking that your H should be guiding the recovery. You BOTH need to be doing this. He should be doing all the EPs, meeting your needs, avoiding LBs, engaging with you in the UA time... and vice-versa. You are each accountable to the other. Recovery from an A is a joint effort.

Every Sunday afternoon, sit together and make a schedule. Put in the work hours and meal preparation, sleep, etc, then your UA hours, then there still ought to be time left for house projects, completed a bit at a time.

The UA time needs to be the most enjoyable hours of your week in order for it to be effective. Four four-hour dates during which the four most important ENs are being met, while also avoiding all LB, rather like when you were dating. You were having fun, right? Unless you both think repairing the deck is fun, this should be scheduled outside of the UA hours.

It's important to be careful with the UA time and not to short-change yourselves and your marriage by trying to skip steps. Dr. Harley recommends strongly against TV as a UA activity. He recommends actually getting out of the house for the UA time.

The reason for this is because it's so easy to become distracted from each other while at home. Also, when at home, couples tend to look a bit ratty. If they go out someplace, they will often take care with appearance. At home, couples often THINK they're spending quality time with each other, when actually they are passing each other in the hall, ignoring each other while on respective computers, etc.

Once your UA time is enjoyable and you are enjoying wonderful conversation and affection with your H and he is having fun with you during a recreational activity and each date ends with mutually satisfying love-making, he will likely decide that the deck can wait.

Good Morning LongWayFromHome! Wonderful as always to see your reply.

I am posting a bit of an update and some more (of my) food for thought. I am soooooo grateful for this board and for all of the members who share their own stories here!



Point very well taken, thank you. I do see that we both need to become peers on equal footing with an equal voice in our marriage. That is definitely our goal.

Neither of us is totally avoiding LBs yet. I still vacillate between Withdrawal and Conflict, and H seems to have some difficulty in not getting sucked into my rollercoaster ride.

H is rarely if ever LB'ing me any more except for in response to my LB'ers to him. Our problem at the moment is that he doesn't seem to be able to remember from one time to the next that it IS my Taker talking when I DJ him, so he quite often does still respond in kind. We've read threads here, heard Dr. Harley's radio clips on it, etc...and he does get it that my going into conflict is a GOOD thing...but he doesn't seem to be able to stop himself from responding when we are in it.

During the day, I can usually recognize this and suggest a time out. Later into the evening though when I am tired, instead of a break, I NEED to get away from it because his LoveBank balance is not rallying very well with me yet, I still often look at him with resentment, and so I opt for removing myself from the room. H seems to follow me around though, and it is very difficult for me to NOT re-engage. Last night he did admit to me that when I walk away, he feels lonely and abandoned (I never do it desrespectfully...I always explain that I am going to go leave the room so that we don't spiral down into LB'ers).

This same stuff has a ring of commonality clear back to the beginning of our marriage. H withdrew years ago due to his lack of practicing radical honesty. We see that now but had no idea then. H was very hurt after our children were born and I did not spend as much time with him, and instead of telling me about that, he stuffed his feelings and allowed those issues to turn into LB'ers. Again, we see this now. But I get it that my needing time alone is triggering that....it's just that I CANNOT talk about the A...and so how do I handle it when I ASK for help and he doesn't respond, and so I feel frustrating and angry. I KNOW that I could tell him calmly that perhaps I didn't explain well and that I NEED for him to �_____ fill in the current need�. But what happens to me still is that I seem to go from 0 to 60 in a nano-second, and if I don't get myself out of there, I WILL have an AO or at the least a DJ.

It has only been three months since I discovered a twelve year affair. I'm going to be honest here and say that I feel that I am "sacrificing" right now by NOT bringing up the A, but I also totally agree with the FACT that my bringing up the A only makes it harder for ME to mentally handle things.

H HAS answered all of my questions, along with all of the other JC that I have posted here before. I also spoke with him last evening about changing his cell number and he agreed to change it, in spite of it being his work phone. Also, he just did the sweetest thing today....he is working near OW neighborhood and so he texted me to LOOK at the GPS so that I can see where he is. He also included in the text that he had driven there in his boss's truck so that he is �in cognito� ROFLOL. That meant a TON to me!

But anyway, when I think of IT, instead of bringing it up, I am asking for what I need when I feel like I am second choice, or when I feel that H is not attracted to me, or when I picture them having sex. My problem at the moment is that H only SOMETIMES recognizes that I am crying out for help...only SOMETIMES responds immediately to my need for re-assurance (btw, this is also an ongoing problem in our M...H has figured it out now for himself and brought it up to ME that he used to routinely ignore my issues until (his words), things got so bad that I would have to wail to get his attention).

Nowadays, when H doesn't respond immediately, I go right back down the rabbit hole and then I am ANGRY and hurt and prefer to go off and lick my wounds, feeling totally that he DOESN'T care about me, and furthering that notion by beating myself up royally for being so STUPID to allow myself to stay in a situation (at that moment) that is not nurturing for me.

Can we say emotions? If anything, MY anger has only gotten worse in the last week when I have totally stopped talking about the A. In fact, now when it pops into my head, I am working overtime to re-route my own thinking. I know that is my �job� right now and I am not complaining...however, I do have to admit that it is upsetting the (already precarious) apple cart regarding LB and EN's.

I went to the doctor this week, and he still does not want to prescribe antidepressants (I have had issues with them in the past). I can take something to sleep though. H and I discussed this last night and we are okay with it....so that means that for now until the anger phase passes from me, H has agreed to be more understanding when I need to walk away or have some alone time to collect myself so as NOT to LB him. H has also agreed to sit with me at night while I exercise, OR to take walks with me when he is able (he had a back injury two months ago). If I can drink enough water during the day, keep up with my meditations, exercise every day, and hopefully have a bit more understanding from H, I think that we can keep things on more of an even keel than they have been. God I hope so!

Okay I am going to have to respond to the rest of your wonderful post later. I just re-read what I wrote and I do hope that it has come across as truthful rather than totally negative. I AM having a tough time since no more A talk with H. But I also AM trusting that MB and Dr. Harley and all of you KNOW what you are talking about, and so I am hopeful that it will help us in the long run.

It is so therapeutic for me to post here, thank you MB! I am off now to do a few things that need done, and I will be back later or in the morning. H and I are having a real bona-fide date tonight! Yay!

Hmm....interesting to read about putting in meal prep and sleep, etc. into the schedule. We have not been doing that and we will put it in there this Sunday. We did plan two dates on this current week's schedule, but next week we will aim for four.

Last night's date got messed up. H had to work late and our plans wouldn't have been able to end with SF due to time constraints, so we changed our plans. We ARE trying to follow Doctor H.'s advice about planning three hours of being "out" on a date prior to ending with SF.

SF was beyond odd last night though...we had a relaxing evening with a ton of IC, I was feeling great...we started having SF and suddenly OW would not leave my head. We did work through it but man that kind of stunted the night for me.

Nah, I don't particularly look forward to working on the deck. Maybe when we actually stain it, we could stretch and say that it's fun because we'll enjoy the finished product, haha, but that's about it.

Okay, so THIS week when we do the schedule, we will add four dates at the most enjoyable hours of the week. Man alive, sounds like our future weekends are going to be BUSY!


I DO love the way that you write, LongWayFromHome. You have such a knack for making everything sound so appealing.

Okay so no TV. Nothing that isn't recreational and fun for both of us. Nothing that stifles the UA.

This board as well as our local counselor (we use him to help us work on particular MB issues) has been pounding it into our heads that we need to plan more fun. Our counselor told us last week that even fun wasn't enough, we need to be silly together! We are realizing that you and our counselor both are right. We are SO darned serious...we are working so hard on our M that we were going days without sharing any laughter.

I think that we both feel that we HAVE to work so hard on our M in order to try to avoid a D. In reality though, by working so diligently and never truly relaxing, that is not doing much to add to H's LB$ with me. So where we are now is back to getting in that 25 hrs of UA time, and trying our bestest to have some silliness and laughter in each day. It's been about ten days now and I am hoping hoping that I will feel some sparks towards H soon.

Just adding this to my thread so that H and I can refer to it easily for more convo starters. LongWayFromHome, hope that you don't mind! These are some more excellent ideas!

You are on the right track; you sound very logical, in spite of the usual post D-Day roller coaster.

The one thing that stands out immediately is that your H drove near the OW's neighborhood. If she lives close by, you two really ought to consider moving. Her proximity to your home is alarming and could be a temptation for your H as well as a trigger to you. You and your H need to change the conditions of your marriage and your life to make it impossible for him to have an A.

All of your emotional responses are completely normal. In time, IF your H deposits enough love units and IF he avoids destroying your love with LB, then you will be in love with him again. If you do the same, he will be in love with you, too. Two to five years is about the time frame for marital recovery and for the resentment to fade away. The more you have to get past, the longer it is likely to take.

Images of the affair during SF: I bet most of us have experienced that as well. That will pass in time, too. I'm not promising that you never think of it,but it will get easier. Time is against you now, but one day you will look back and realize how far you have come.

I've heard Dr. Harley talk about the idea of working hard on a marriage. He said the hard work is in building all the new habits. Once those habits are created, marriage is much easier. Once your H is in the habit of being affectionate in the ways you like and enjoying conversation with you, it will be so much easier for you to feel bonded with him and want to meet his needs for SF and recreational companionship.

Signing up for the Online Seminar would be such a good idea for you two. We thought we could do it on our own; we're both disciplined and college-educated, but it turned out that we really needed the accountability and extra help offered by the program. Do you have the Five Steps workbook? (sorry if I've already asked.) The worksheets are so helpful for creating a plan to meet each EN and eliminate each LB, step by step. Does your MC help you with each step?

You mention having had problems with depression in the past? Have you been diagnosed with endogenous depression? This is the kind of depression that is not caused by a situation; rather this kind of depression is internal and doesn't go away when things improve. People with endogenous depression often have to take medication throughout their lives to control the symptoms.

Most depression in women is caused by their marriage. Dr. Harley has discussed this on the radio. If your marriage has been a disappointment to you, it's possible this may have actually led to your depressions of the past. If you can't take meds for the time being, then hopefully you are getting plenty of healthy exercise to help boost your energy and get your spirits up.

When your thoughts are dark, be gentle but direct with your H about what you need at that moment. "I'm having a really hard time right now and I need you to hold me." Your H should get into the habit of asking you every day, "What can I do for you?"

Recovery is hard. It takes a great deal of effort to work through the pain and disillusionment and build a brand new marriage.

Good Day, LWFH! No, OW does not live close by, but she does live right off of a freeway exit about 30 minutes away. For H's job, he is going to have to go that way occasionally. H already quit his job after D-day so that he would not have to routinely drive that way. But still, in his line of work, it is going to happen.

I'm not trying to stick up for H because frankly, I don't like having to deal with ANY of this. If I could do anything right this second to feel better, my first choice would be walking away from everything that we own and moving to a trailer by the ocean lol. But...H did alert me as he is supposed to, to him driving near her neighborhood, and his alert to me felt re-assuring.


He is doing better than I ever thought that he could...however now that I have posted here, and now that we both have spent time read, read, reading other BS and WS stories...I realize that we have a LONG way to go. I think that H realizes that too because he seems to be stepping up his efforts even more.

There are things that H does that I did not realize are LB, and suddenly I do realize because I am feeling it. I am telling him about each thing as they come up, and he is starting to tell me his stuff also. We are learning PORH on another level now.

That said, right now I still don't think that H is at the line, or maybe it is MY line...where H is able to deposit love units to me. Maybe I reject them? I am feeling care about him more (as opposed to disgust), but I'm not quite "there" if we talk about the attraction that would cause me to fall in love again.

We spent 21 hours of UA time this weekend alone (plus ten hours during the weekdays), and I noticed all weekend that I would describe what I need from H, and he would respond "but I did that two hours ago", and I would realize that he had indeed done that...and yet it had meant nothing to me. I still feel like my head is a ping pong ball. I feel a tad bit hopeful...but still reserved I guess. Maybe I am just emotionally protecting myself and that is normal?


THANK YOU LongWay, I needed to read that. SF is a high EN for me, and it feels so hopeless to me when we have stumbling blocks in that department.

Since SF is so important for me, when that tanks, it leaves a devastating impression on me for hours later because I feel hopeless. The other evening, we DID manage to save the SF, and that conversely left a hopeFUL impression for me.

Part of the Roller Coaster I assume.


True that. With spending so much UA time together this weekend, we had lots of opportunities for LB'ing...and we worked together to avoid them and POJA instead. I wouldn't say that we are good at it yet, but we are starting to get it. I can see how POJA and PORH will make everything easier once it becomes a habit. We are getting better at speaking our needs and desires. It is exhausting right now, but we did have FUN this weekend!


We are saving for the online program. I had thought that the online seminar included the coach and Dr. Harley's weekend boards, but now we re-read the info this weekend, and it looks like we will have to buy the online one year program to get that ($945?). So it will take some saving time unless we get some windfalls in the meanwhile.

Yes, we have the Five Steps Workbook. We did the UA questionnaire together this past weekend. It was very enlightening. Surprising answers on both of our sides. Plus, we had been planning a walk in the local park, but after we completed that UA questionnaire and I saw how much fun H thinks doing things with our dogs is, I offered for us to take the dogs with us to the park. H lit up like the proverbial Christmas Tree lol. It was also more fun for me than I had thought that it would be.

Our local MC is very good, but he is not MB. Pretty much what we do with him is tell him what particular problem area we need help with, lately we have been spending time brainstorming fun ideas, silly fun, how H can better go out of his way to think of ideas outside of the box to help me to feel better, etc. H has an extreme fear that I will opt for D, and so he has great difficulty not being "stunted" when trying to help me. He is afraid that if he does the "wrong" thing, that I will be gone (and for a while he was probably right).


No, I had dysthymia (low level depression) when I was younger. Basically I think that they just kept me on meds for too long. Back then, they did not know as much as today and they did not monitor as often. I had bad reactions to the meds in that they had the opposite of the intended affect. Prior to my cancer surgery last year, I was put back on one med temporarily, and they took me right off after two weeks. Frankly, it wasn't worth the emotional ride that I (already) was going through at that time...it made that ride worse, and then took another couple of weeks after stopping meds for me to feel better.


I can believe that is true! Yes, my M was a disappointment to me once our children were born, and I bet that did lead to my depression back then. Somewhere along the line, we became non-integrated and excluded each other from the "rooms" in our lives, and I got happy with my life again. For about 20 years pre-D-day, I loved life and felt no depression.

Now that I am facing things again, and of course now the A, I am depressed again. That's the ugly truth. BUT I am also feelings stirrings of feelings for H again, and we are back to being totally integrated. More than ever before, even more than before we had our children.


More great advice, thank you.

I'll take a leap here and guess that at the time you discovered your H's A, you were probably not in love with him. Is that correct? I know that, looking back, I hadn't actually been in love with my H in years. Caring love, yes; romantic love, no.

If that was indeed the case, D-Day probably ripped a hole in his account in your love bank and whatever love you had held for him drained away...and then his account went deep into the negative.

So now you are at the point where he can make love bank deposits, but since you are likely in the negative, it's going to take many many more love bank deposits on his part to get to the romantic love threshold. People here have said it's like trying to fill up a pond using little pebbles. You just keep throwing them in, persistently and consistently, and eventually, a bridge is built.

When you ask your H for something that you need, it's really not a great idea for him to say that he already did that. If you ask for, say, a hug or kiss or some other sign of his care, whether it's the first time that day or the fiftieth time, it's because it's what you are needing for that moment. The only caveat is that whatever he is doing for you should also be enjoyable to him. Or that he enjoys the results of his efforts.

If you and your H can keep up your efforts by keeping your UA time up and meeting each others needs, avoiding love busters, using the POJA and PORH, you will once again be in love with each other. And it is sure to be quite different, much better, than what you had before.

It really would be a great idea to move away from that area. Thirty minutes is still pretty close. I understand all about jobs, etc. but it's risky to be that close. Does the OW know where you live? Some of them can be pretty persistent and show up unexpectedly.

Roller Coaster....the anger got the better of me more often than not last week. I am sad to read here that the anger stage can go on for months?

It's a volcano that gives no warning, and if it catches me unawares when I am unable to heed that "two minute" warning to side-track my thoughts...watch out!

I major AO'd H this past weekend. Yes I know it's a LB. No I don't want to LB, but at the time I didn't care.

On Saturday, we had a local MC session and we learned how to use examples to invoke empathy in each other. Very helpful, except that once I started seeing that H was getting the honest remorse part, it seemed to make me more and more angry.

Angry that he can only "get" things when I explain it in a way that he has to think how HE would feel. By Sunday afternoon, I was at the bottom of the roller coaster again, but this time, H did pull me out with genuine care. He did! First time ever! And he was shocked and seemed soooo proud of himself and us!

Yay!! I saw a glimmer of the man that I married. I felt soooo good on Sunday night, so loved, so hopeful...had a pretty good Monday.

And then last night H did a major LB to me. We have EP in place where he is not supposed to drive within a certain parameter of OW house. Well....we were together driving, and what does he do? He drove within three blocks of her house! I did not know the area so well, we were headed to a Lowe's store, and as soon as I realized where we were, I told him to turn around. He did, and he apologized big time. He later said that he had been focused on getting to Lowe's before it closed, and he didn't even think about where we were. True it was going in the back way (not from the freeway exit that her house sits off of). BUT the fact of the matter is that he did it. It totally ruined my night and today hasn't been too hot either.

I feel like this big fat ugly pink elephant is always going to be sitting in our living room, no matter what we do. I realize that I'm feeling sorry for myself at the moment, and it has only been 14 weeks out since D-Day.

H has texted me all day apologizing for his independent behavior...not protecting us, and not keeping me and US front and center in his thoughts at all times. I do believe that he is being sincere, but the fact of the matter is that he did not think. If he did not think when I was WITH him...what does he do when I am not with him?

LWFH, I am totally hearing you now about the proximity to her house, ugh. I do not want to move! We have owned this house for 32 years, it used to be a safe haven for me (I have to admit that since D-Day it doesn't mean the same, but I have been hopeful that the enjoyment of our home will return to me as I heal). On top of that, we would not be able to sell this and buy another home because now H has ruined our credit for the time being.

I KNOW that my M is more important than a house. I hear ya and I am (now) putting more weight to your words for sure. H WAS textbook and I have to remember that. I am just so frigging angry that he put us in this situation.

Tonight we have lots of UA time scheduled, and first thing before we start is that I am going to demand a much larger danger zone (proximity to OW house). Plus I had agreed previously that if H gets a call for work just on the edge of that zone, that he could go as long as he texted to let me know. Nope, not anymore. That zone needs to be a never zone.

I realize that won't fix it if H isn't going to keep to the EP. He has fallen over himself with all other EP. This shocked me and I guess that I still haven't even processed it fully.

You're probably right on the nail. I did always perk up when he got home. I never tired of being with him and chatting in all the years. Probably it was only caring love though, not romantic love, you're right.


I get it. This is not something that I ever pictured that H could handle (the patience part), but he sure does seem to be consistently supportive in spite of my recent AOs. We have had some intense radical honesty like never before, and he has made comments a day or two later to me that showed me that he totally "got" what I shared with him. I can FEEL those huge LB$....but I don't feel love for him even when I feel "nice" from the LB$.


Yes, exactly. He's fine with a hug or a kiss, but I'll ask for him to stop what he is doing and please look me in the eye and tell me why he wants to work through this. I've realized that I tend to SD him about that (didn't realize that until this weekend)...I do tend to tell him that "he never tells me hopeful things" for instance, and then he will respond with "I just told you this morning that I felt hopeful that we can get through this". He's right. He did. I forget from one hour to the next, I really do.

The thing that I ask when I feel like I am falling down the rabbit hole (roller coaster) is for him to respond FAST, think on his feet if he is with me, and help me to cut off that thinking pattern NOW. Instead, he will ask me what I am thinking...that is not going to help. I will again explain how I need to not "open up that file" with the bad mind tapes of the A, and that instead, I need some fast response within two minutes about something positive.

I am slowly getting to the point where I can divert my own mind (sometimes) when I am alone. But when I am with him, I seem to be unable to do so.


Not sure if she knows. H says that he never told her and that she is not computer literate. Anyone could look up the tax info online. I definitely know that if I were her, I sure would have known where the wife lived. Not a peep from her in 14 weeks though, thank God.

blindsighted, you are getting great advice from longwayhome and I just wanted to add my own experience. My H's OW lived in another state and never even set foot in my state. Yet, I felt continual triggers and sadness in my home and other places where I experienced the fallout from his affair. For example, I found out about his affair while I worked at a certain place in Louisiana. Whenever we drove to LA thereafter, I would be triggered. I ALWAYS felt a general feeling of sadness living in that house where I discovered the affair.

When we moved to another city 4 hours, the dark cloud amazingly lifted and our marriage moved into a new, higher realm of happiness.

In your case, it is much worse than this because you will occasionally run into the OW. You will be continually triggered, and more importantly, SO WILL YOUR HUSBAND. That is a disaster waiting to happen. You will recover much faster if you move away from there, I promise.


Oh no, the anger should not go on for *ANY* time. It should end NOW, my friend. Your fragile marriage cannot afford ANY ANGER. If you can't get that under control on your own, I would get on anti-depressants or get anger management training. If you want to wreck the recovery of your marriage, this is how you do it!

Blindsighted, every time you have an angry outburst, it withdraws love units from your account in your H's love bank. He might feel as though he deserves your anger, but it still withdraws love units.

Not only that, but the anger doesn't accomplish anything. It is destructive. I totally get the anger; I was very angry and it hurt our progress. My husband "took" it, but it made him feel terrible. And it made me feel terrible, too. It always brought the past into the present and heaped misery on top of misery.

You might try the ADs again and see if you can get a different prescription. Many people have good results with Wellbutrin, which doesn't affect the libido as some of the others do.

Dr. Harley strongly recommends anger management classes for people who have trouble controlling their temper. He recommends learning how to relax under stress as the way to control it.

I understand moving seems impossible since you have lived in your current house for so long. Yet if you had the prospect of being in love with your H and he with you and no more geographical triggers, it would be worth it, wouldn't it? Personally I wouldn't be able to handle the OW anywhere in the vicinity, never knowing when I or my H might run into her or be in her area.

Like ML, I found that the house we lived in at the time of D-Day was full of triggers. We lived in a beautiful location, but there were many times walking up that staircase of our townhouse made me remember how I felt walking up those stairs when I thought our marriage was going to end. I could be happy downstairs and get upstairs and be in tears. We were sad to leave, but living in a brand new location has been a breath of fresh air.

Further, now that we are in love and are enjoying the best marriage we have ever had, we don't even care where we live or what we own. None of it really seems to matter any more.

Well today I am feeling about a 4 / 10. Better than yesterday. Definitely not as angry.

Last night, H and I made a much larger "never" zone for traveling in the proximity of OW house. Until we move (or not), we will both stick to that. H actually pointed out that her two adult children also live north of her, and so we wayyyy enlarged the no travel zone.

Thank you soooooo much to both of you for your replies. This board has become my go-to for honest experience. Thank you Thank you Thank you.

Melody and LWFH, you both make excellent points about the marriage home leaving a sour taste due to D-Day. I had never thought of it that way before. H would move if I insist, and I will definitely be thinking more on this.

Regarding my anger, Melody, I am listening and appreciate your kind and candid response. LWFH has been telling me the same (over and over). I am trying to deal with it. H and I have both felt that I'm doing a good job of it, but it really sounds like I am not.

I've never had an anger issue in my life and I daresay that perhaps neither of us understands the anger as it relates to MB?

We both were thinking that as long as I don't LoveBust (but yes I did last Sunday), that the anger was normal? And as long as I don't bring up the A, I CAN ask for a hug or help re-routing my mind tapes?

Another issue also with anger, but now H's....H and I were reading HNHN last night and one of the exercises at the end of the chapter told us to take the Personal History Questionnaire. We did, and it triggered H BIG BIG BIG TIME. I haven't seen him so upset in at least 20 years.

The thing that triggered him was the question about the most important sexual experience...it was years ago, and it centered around a black dress that I had worn to a wedding and we had fantastic SF afterward...he loved that dress and apparently had told me so at the time, but I felt fat in it and so I threw it out.

I honestly don't remember him saying anything about it at the time, but I am sure that he did. And this is HUGE to him...

He was SOOOO upset to find out that I'd thrown it out because he says that "represents my total lack of care whether I met his E needs back then". Probably WAY TRUE and so I held him and apologized, but then he suddenly sat up and said that he was soooooo angry, and he kept asking "is this part of the MB program, do we have to do this? Why do we have to talk about this, what purpose will it serve?" I said no of course not, and I changed the subject, but then I could see that HE was having bad mind tapes and so I held him some more and we both got past it.

But my question is....maybe we DO need to bring this up and talk about it? He says that after the dress incident, he had "threatened to have an A". I don't remember that either. But I did read an article that was linked here in MB about memory files, and how the way that we "file" an incident at the time that it happens is usually the way that our memories recall those files years later (even if incorrect). So it realllly doesn't matter if H has the same memory file as I do...the point of the matter is that H is obviously hurting big time, and so I am wondering if we should deal with that hurt?

I am leaving a bunch of H's personal details out here. If you feel they are necessary, I will ask him if he minds my posting them. But I really feel after what I saw last night that this is honestly huge for him. Even if the events are not the same as I remember, he is devastated by his memories of the events, and so what do I do with that?

We do have a local MC. Should we wait do bring it up with him?

Is your H willing to be on the show with the Harleys? Have you written Dr. Harley?

The Personal History Questionnaire is taken so you can know everything about each other that there is to know. It's not used to dredge up all the mistakes of your past. That will make the conversation very very unpleasant.

The angry outbursts you and your H are experiencing are going to have to stop, or your marriage will certainly suffer. You both need to commit to simply STOP the anger in its tracks. Sure, anger is "normal;" but it's NOT healthy to express it by losing one's temper. It's not healthy for your marriage and it will wreck whatever progress you are making.

And I totally get the anger. I was very angry with my H for his betrayal. I felt a physical hurt from it and often wished I could just die. (Often I wished my H would die. Bad, bad times.) It was hard to overcome the anger, but I finally did it by using one of the Conversation worksheets in the Five Steps workbook. I did not want to commit at that time to never having another angry outburst. But I could do it like when I quit smoking. I could go for a morning. Then I could go for the afternoon. Then the evening. Then the next morning, the next afternoon, and so on. That's the way I stopped smoking. That's the way I stopped having AO's.

When you find yourself with crappy thoughts, do something different. Dr. Harley recommends relaxation, so take deep breaths and think of something calming.

Neither of us has had an AO in over a year. No fights, no arguments. Conflicts? Yes, but we POJA everything now. It's really such a tremendously rewarding way to live that we consider it a "new" marriage, in a way.

Don't either of you give yourselves "permission" to have AO's. They will destroy your already broken love for each other.

Hi BrainHurts, thank you for taking the time to post. Neither H nor I are comfortable right now with being on the radio show. We are saving to purchase the online program. We plan to be able to purchase during September, crossing fingers.

LWFH, your suggestion of quitting the AO's one day, or hour, at a time, is helping me. Thank you for that.

We had some skating to do last night when we were paying bills together, and we did manage to be polite and POJA our differences without even a raised blood pressure in either of us.

Neither H nor I have had an AO in ten days. I wish that I could say that I feel better, I guess that it is better, but it is different and perhaps more immediately frustrating for me to stifle my anger whilst I am forcing myself to re-route it.

I have been meditating each day and also exercising. Remember I can't go on AD and so I am realllly having to monitor myself throughout the day to try to keep that "level" mentality. Perhaps I am getting a bit better at noticing that level though.

This still sucks. Each day continues to feel like a nightmare for me. I still go back and forth between wanting to stay and wanting to leave. The pendulum does seem to be swinging for longer though.

I have a rough time being out in public since D-Day. My self esteem is in the garbage. I guess I've been spoiled my entire life because I never doubted myself, even in my teen years. I never had issues with feeling like I fit in. Now I seem to feel "less than" in every way, and seeing even semi-attractive women out in public living their normal lives makes me feel nauseous.

I'm no longer "normal" and I'm no longer attractive in my own mind, and I don't know what to do about that except to give it time.

I lost that that confidence in myself that came with feeling secure in a long-time marriage, kwim?

The fact that H's affair went on for twelve YEARS right under my nose without my having a single clue bowls me over and causes me to realize that I must have been so very pompous and sure of myself. I know that anyone would be bowled over by this, but somehow I don't seem to YET have the facilities within myself to make sense of it. Trusting in this program and having faith that I will get there someday.

An update:

At this point four months in, I am getting how to stifle my stuff by not bringing up the A. Some days it is getting better, and I can function. Other days I am still bitterly burning up inside nearly all day long. Sudden AOs have just come short of slipping out, but so far I've been managing to stifle those too. I've been doing this for almost three weeks now and I KNOW that it is the right thing to do because I am shocked to hear from H that he thinks that "we are making great progress in R".

OH MY GOD, does he NOT know me at all??????? Sometimes it really DOES feel good, and then other times I cringe when he walks into the room. Sometimes he represents the most basic primal ugliest feelings that I've ever had in my 51 years of life. And he doesn't SEE that in me? (I guess that's a good thing)

Until two weeks after D-Day, my eyes always lit up when he walked into the room. I still felt that little heart pitter-patter of excitement even after 33 years of marriage. That is deader than a doornail now. And he doesn't NOTICE???? SERIOUSLY????

He is making great progress in being aware of my EN, but many times I am still totally closed to H, I know that I am withdrawn, and sometimes I still contemplate D with utter disgust at what "he" nuked and then scattered it all over the roadside as he went on his merry way. For TWELVE YEARS.

This past weekend, we had some good UA time. We had lots of IC, great RC, and a bit of Affection and SF. It makes a big difference in how I view things.

We finally saved up enough $ for the $397 MB course, and we will now start saving up the difference to add the coaching and the weekend boards (probably another 4-5 months of saving). We began those this past weekend, and that was nice also. H was very involved, and we had lots of IC after each module.

Next post will be a bit of a vent because I know that I can use these forums to spout my emotions, rather than fling them at H.

Blindsighted,

Thank you for updating us. I had been wondering how you were doing.

Everything you are going through is perfectly (horribly) normal for your stage of recovery. It sounds like you are doing a great job stifling the instinctive reactive negative emotions.

I told myself that I would give recovery six months to see how things went, then another six months. As long as I could see progress in the marriage, I was encouraged enough to continue for a while longer. I gave myself permission to consider leaving and even had a mental plan prepared in case that's what I decided.

Have your H's habits and your lifestyle together changed radically so that there is NO possibility of the A, or any A, starting up again? Do you have all his passwords? Does he account for all his time? Do you have a GPS on his vehicle, so that you know where he is at all times? Since his affair went on for a long time while you were living together, these steps would be necessary to keep your lives together very transparent.

It's very hopeful that you have the home study course. Make sure you continue to spend at least 20 - 25 hours a week together meeting those four intimate ENs and avoiding all LBs. The importance of the UA time together can't be overstated in restoring your marriage.

I'm so sorry you are having to endure this pain. It's going to take a minimum of two years to learn to trust that your H cares for you and about you and to get over your resentment of the betrayal. Time is against you now, but, if you keep following the MB program, a day at a time, one day you will look back at these days and you will feel a lot better about where your marriage is. You will be in love with your H again.

I DO worry for my health. I just had ovarian cancer surgery a year ago and this hell stress is not good for me. I don't want to chuck my 33 yr M, and so I am forcing myself to do the MB plan. We both do agree with it. But honestly, this stifling of my emotions is taking its toll...on the other hand, I DO see that if I want my M, there is no other option.

We plan to give it one more month without ADs....my doctor does not want to prescribe due to trouble that I've had in the past with them. H and I have decided that if by the middle of next month, my stomach is not feeling better (my surgery site is driving me nuts since D-day and I've already seen the oncologist to verify that cancer has not returned....it is from stress and my inners not having totally healed when D-day hit), then I will go to a psychiatrist and hopefully get ADs that way.

Posting here rather than railing at H about this....here is where I am with not talking about the A now: It is absolutely driving me bonkers that he did this on and off for TWELVE years. After four months now of thinking on it, I could (almost) accept the "insanity" plea that he kept giving me after D-Day.

Yes, we now know that the reason that he did it is that we weren't meeting each other's needs and that we had no EP in place to protect us.

He says that he doesn't know why he did it except that he was a selfish raging idiot and didn't give any thought to his family (NONE of his family...he admits that he took care of HER kids' cars, etc. while leaving OUR kids on their own...he fixed HER house and her KIDS houses while he let ours fall apart). But HOW DOES one stay "insane" for twelve y-e-a-r-s?

They had sex for two years late 1999 to mid 2001. He says that it was intense and that if I had discovered it then, yes he may have left me because of how great it felt. Then the novelty wore off (according to him) and they stopped seeing each other. He told me that he felt awful and tried to tell me about it a few times. Then she called him out of the blue in 2007 and he went running back and ended up in her bed (duh). WHY did he go back? Well I know why he went back, obviously, but that means that the insanity was still there if he could start it up again at the drop of a pin.

Yes, again, we realize no EP in place. We both realize how utterly reckless that we were with something so precious as our M. But still, I focus on the logistics of IT.

Then no sex after that, so he claims, but still kisses and hugs. I am not sure that I believe that. And the "interesting" thing is that he says that he was soooo fogged then that he really thinks that he loved me during this time and that he wanted our relationship back....although he did NOTHING to attempt to get it back. He claims that from 2007 until 2013, they talked about each other's days. Saw each other a couple of times a month, usually when she needed something done on her house (makes me wanna puke), and otherwise talked on the phone an average of 1.5 hours per DAY. Bull-pucky. It may not be bull-pucky about the sex/no sex thing, don't know, but it sure as heck is Bull-Pucky that he loved me one bit during that time.

The day that I confronted him, he lied straight to my face with the "just friends" thing. 1-5 days later (I can't remember), he told me the whole story. He gained credibility with me because I did my own surveillance and had not discovered anything going on prior to 2007, and HE told me about that. That revelation is what ended up causing me to decide to try to save the M. I committed to one day at a time.

He kept telling me that he had no feelings left for her, instead it was his "comfort zone", but that he didn't know how to get out. It was a habit that he couldn't break. He kept saying that he needed some "direction" and that the day after D-Day it all hit him like a ton of bricks. I've read of WS stories on here where they claim to have felt trapped. No disrespect meant to WS who are trying to face their own memories of events, but HOW is that possible?

He did go NC immediately after the truth revelation to me. He has made comments to me that it feels so much better now to have his life back. He claims that for the last six years, he has contemplated suicide more than once because he knew that he had destroyed his life for nothing. And yet he "couldn't get out" ???? How does one have those feelings and yet choose not to change the situation that they are in?

He could have ended it when he found out that I had cancer. He could have started being attentive to me again, and I would have believed that it was because of my close health call...and I would never have known about his A. <----THIS IS THE POSSIBLE DEAL BREAKER FOR ME

He didn't do that. Instead, according to phone records, he called her exactly 13 minutes after he left my hospital room on the day of my surgery. AND....he claims that she didn't know anything about my cancer...that they just talked about her day when he called. OMG....your wife just avoided bleeding out and dying on the table, and you call to ask about HER day?????

I keep reading the MB forums to gain sanity, and it helps. But my own emotions seems to keep over-riding the calm and sane approach that is offered here. This stuff doesn't make SENSE. For four months now, he has made every possible effort to focus on the future, and on US. He went NC, put a GPS on his phone, texts me when he gets to and leaves work, puts me first before his Mom and friends (he never did that before), we POJA anything that bothers either of us, we are working the MB program, UA time over 30 hours per week, he says I Love Yous all through the day....but I am still miserable because I don't BELIEVE IT. Maybe it's more honest to say that I don't trust it?

He is willing for us to move if I decide that is what I want. I don't yet want to do that...BUT I do realize that you all are correct and it is Trigger City here. So....we have committed to taking a couple of weekend getaways coming up soon, and ALSO we are trying to save for weeks away in another state during the winter.

With my job, I can work anywhere that I want to. But it will be a matter of saving the $ for a condo to rent out of state for a month or so. H can work for me during our time away, and so we will only lose about 1/4 of his normal income during that time. So we will give that a trial, just renting a place and seeing how I feel. That gives me some hope to look forward to that...but we are going to save for the coaching part of the MB first (I called when we bought the online program, and they said that we could upgrade to the coaching once we have saved the money), so that will still be a while yet.

Our finances and our house and cars are so messed up because of this (H had been ignoring all finances for months prior to D-day), that everything is going to be slow going. It took us four months to save up the $397 for the online MB program. I get SOOOOOO angry that at 51 years old, I am having to force myself to have patience about money stuff and about home and car repairs....we had to work our way up when we were young, and we worked hard and we were debt free in 1997. Now THIS? Because the house of cards was falling down for HIM and he still didn't have the Xalls to come and talk to me, but instead hid the state of our finances until everything was almost gone....it WOULD have been gone if I hadn't discovered the A....he obviously WAS going to keep his mouth shut until there wasn't a penny left...okay yes, THAT was a vent.

It is disgusting that it took four months at this stage in our lives to save up for the MB program....BUT WE DID IT. So I'm thinking that I need to focus on that. Slow and steady but we ARE moving forward. My focusing on the crap is not going to make me feel better. I do get that. It's just not so easy to accomplish. THANK YOU all for being there (and thank you to anyone who actually got to the end of this post, haha!).

Thank you LongWay, your posts always feel so calming. I appreciate the compliment too, it means a lot and motivates me to keep going.


Pretty much what I am doing also, except that I haven't been setting $ aside to leave. I figure if it does come to that, he has to leave our home, and then I can spend three months working my butt off to get myself flush with finances. For right now, I am choosing to put every available dime of my income into saving our M finances (he had already been sued by one creditor and about a dozen others were/are lining up, ugh ugh ugh).


Yes, we have EP in place. I have all passwords, all of his time accounted for even stopping to buy gas, GPS on his phone and I track him during the day, I check his texts every night or two, for now he does not go anywhere alone except for work.

Our local MC has said that he has confidence that H is empathetic and is working harder than anyone he has seen to change his life. I have to agree...but I do realize that MCs aren't God and that we must do the MB program to safeguard our new M. H still messes up with IB...I posted already about some of it, and there have been other instances. When it happens, we POJA and he says that he gets it how it was IB, and he does make a genuine effort to change that behavior.


oh yes, definitely getting the UA time. It's not perfect. We have a habit of talking about work stuff, and he is having to learn to be more affectionate. I have a problem with thinking about IT and then not talking (so that I don't AO him).


THANK YOU LongWay! Your hope and your sharing your experience helps a TON!!!

Blindsighted2013,

The reason your H had an affair was because he did not protect himself from an affair. If a person doesn't protect oneself from having an affair, that person is almost sure to have one, because they are SO common. Please do not beat yourself up about needs not being met. It may be true that you and he could have been doing more, but there are plenty of marriages in which all the needs WERE being met, and an affair happened anyway, because one or both were not following EPs. Your husband did not protect his love bank and allowed OW to meet one or more needs.

At the same time, though, you more than likely, were still meeting some of his ENs, including SF, which kept his love bank with you from depleting. It really IS possible to be in love with two people. It does NOT mean that there is CARE, but there is the feeling of being in love. Dr. Harley has said that men can swing this duality more easily than women can because of the man's ability to compartmentalize.

Infidelity is an addiction, very much like being on heroin or an alcoholic. There are chemical reactions in the brain that are exactly the same. The same feelings of euphoria and thrill, the increasing risk in order to get it. Have you heard of stories of drug-addicted people doing the most shameful things just to get their fix? The adulterer is doing the same thing. There are times they will feel great shame at what they are doing, but then they figure out some way to justify what they are doing and the fog rolls back in.

I tried and tried to make sense of what my H had done, and someone pointed out very kindly to me that I was trying to fit my H's irrational and horrible actions in some sort of a rational paradigm. And it WILL NOT FIT. There is no way one can rationalize this.

Your H was indeed trapped by his addiction. He wanted to get out of it at times, but he simply did not have the will power it would take to break away from the powerful addiction of having two women meeting ALL his needs.

So you've had ovarian surgery? Are you on hormone replacement at all? I was doing just great with menopause until last year, due to feeling extraordinarily down, not to mention a curious and troubling drop in libido, and it turned out to be very low testosterone levels. Off the chart at the bottom low. Low testosterone can cause depression-like symptoms which are often treated with ADs, which actually makes the problem worse.

Do you and your H listen to the radio show? Listening to the Harleys is a great education on marriage-building.

Thank you LongWay, you make a lot of good (and calming) points again. Truthfully we were having trouble meeting each other's needs at that point.

Our youngest daughter had lupus and I felt like H had dropped the ball providing any help in caring for her (she is doing great now). He wanted SF without any care in helping me to go to bed early to be with him and relax, and that did create an aversion for me (we see that now).

SF is fantastic now, and it has been fantastic since our youngest flew out of the nest, I think 2008. Well...sometimes not fantastic when I have mind tapes now, but I trust that we will get past that.

I hear ya on the addiction thing. I needed to be reminded, thank you. I am going to concentrate and give this whole addiction side some more thought.

I had a radical hysterectomy and debulking surgery (basically they pull all of your organs out and inspect for cancer along with taking biopsies). I had 39 spots tested for cancer, and it only came back positive in one spot thank God. But until two weeks after surgery, I did not know if I would be facing chemo, etc. Plus because of the extreme surgery, it took me about 8 months before I felt human again. I was just getting back to exercise, etc, when D-Day hit.

Doc says that my pain is because my intestines etc hadn't totally healed and then I went on the "infidelity diet" LOL and made it all worse.

No hormone replacement for me because of my cancer. I am doing okay though with the hot flashes, etc. My libido did not suffer. Many women do have trouble after the same surgery. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), my gyn/oncologist really isn't as concerned with my sex life as he is with keeping me alive, so he is not one to approve of taking any hormones after cancer.

Oh dear, LWFH, were you on ADs when you recently suffered this drop in energy and libido? How are you doing with things now? I know that this goes without saying, but exercise helps a ton. Even walking, anything 20 minutes of getting my heart rate up just a bit (doesn't have to be intense at all) keeps my menopause symptoms at bay. And they say that diet (whole foods) helps too...but I don't stick to that too perfectly here.

I was not on ADs at the time. Recovery was rolling along famously, except that in the last year or so, my libido dropped dramatically, and I couldn't understand why. Then we moved to this new area last summer. It was much much hotter than I was used to so at first I thought it was the heat or the move.

I ran across an article about testosterone in men and how it affects their libido and wondered if the same was true for women. I started researching it in great detail and found a lot of very helpful information that I had in hand when I found a doctor, who had me tested for all hormone levels. After about a month on a compounded low-dosage testosterone cream, I started feeling better emotionally, but it took a higher dosage to help with the libido. I'm quite pleased with the results so far.

You sound like an intelligent woman with a lot going for you. You've had a very difficult year both physically with your radical surgery and emotionally with D-Day. You might think about calling the Harleys for their take on your situation. They have so much to offer and are so helpful. It's best if you can call in rather than just go through email, so you can have a conversation. They can also conference in with your H, if your H is willing. Email with your telephone number and a brief summary to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Have you ever emailed Dr. Harley?

Will you and your Husband be on the show?

awe LongWay, sorry to hear that your libido dropped like that. I can't imagine what that must have felt like for you since your Recovery with your Hubby has been going so well.

Yes to taking the testosterone cream. Good for you for learning so much about it and then finding a doctor to help you. You and your H definitely deserve to have great (and positive!) SF.

You all help SO many people on here, and pass on your knowledge, that really it does my heart so great to read stories that have not only a light at the end of the tunnel, BUT seem to land you in M's that are better than you ever imagined. That's what we want!

I have to ask (kindly) why everyone keeps mentioning calling in to get the Harley's free help? We definitely don't mind paying as we figure that we are paying for their longstanding experience on proven techniques.

Neither H nor I are comfortable being on the radio show at this point, but maybe there is something that we are missing due to this chaotic situation? I know that I am definitely guilty of not seeing the forest for the trees, so if there is something else that you think that we can gain by calling to speak with Joyce, please let me know.

We figured that once we can afford to upgrade our purchase, and once we have the coach and access to the weekend boards, that we can go over the little day-to-day points then. Feel free to hit me with a 2x4 if we aren't thinking straight on this. Thanks!

We only mention his free help because it's so easy and convenient to get advice straight from Dr. Harley.

All it takes is to send an email. Nothing better.

BlindSighted;

I have written to the radio show several times. I had two emails read and answered on the show, and my FWH and I were on-air callers once. Every time, it amazes me how Dr. Harley can cut to the EXACT thing we needed to hear, provide the EXACT path we needed to follow at that moment.

This focus helped us:
1/ Immediately launch our actions in the most beneficial manner,
WITHOUT
2/ Either of us "educating" the other,
AND
3/ Gave us a touchstone, when we re-listen to that program. (Surprising what you miss sometimes, especially when emotions run high.)

As an small benefit, we know we are helping others who might be in a similar situation.

We're now in the online program, with access to the private forum, so we email Dr. Harley directly when either of us has a question or hits a snag.

Both are great resources on the recovery road. But if you aren't able to be in the online program yet, don't pass up the golden opportunity to get advice directly from Dr. Harley, either as an emailer or caller to the show.

The reason we have suggested emailing the Harleys is because they offer such wonderful professional and kind help. They are so respectful and so knowledgeable and have helped thousands of people. They do everything possible to put callers at ease.

Because your H's A was long-term, Dr. Harley may very well have something more to offer you with his expertise than can be offered on this forum and even with his program.

If you are not yet comfortable with calling in, I hope you can both listen to the show every day.

You all make some good points. I can see the value of having someone to cut to the chase much quicker than we can. I will bring it up with H again tonight and see what he thinks.

Yes, LongWay, we do listen to the Radio Show. Not every day, but we do save all of the links that we find in these forums, and we listen separately and together sometimes too. It fuels a lot of IC.

Working on recovery is the hardest thing that I've ever faced. I have to be so vulnerable to the one who hurt me greater than anyone ever has in my life. But if I'm not willing to be vulnerable, then I'm staying in the withdrawn state and he can't fill up my LoveBank. Once I am vulnerable though and go to the conflict state, then I have to fight AOs.

The "trouble" with going to the conflict state (for me) is that it seems that when I feel withdrawn, I can forget the hurt. That is the most comfortable state for me of course. Once I pop back into conflict, that hurt hits me again like a tsunami. The ever-present goal is to get me to the Romantic Love threshhold, and then I am trusting this program that I will not feel this anguish.

We are almost finished with watching the online program. We have only the bottom five modules left to do before we actually start the course.
From watching online, we have figured out that we have more LoveBusters to work on. It's tough(er) to recognize the selfish demands than it is to see the disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts.

We are already learning (or I should say suspecting, and trying to work our way into it) that instead of us both working separately on our respective issues (my AO, his IB), that we can talk about it daily and then POJA ideas ahead of time too so we can help each other a bit more with tangible help, rather than all of the emotions creeping in independently when we are trying and yet feeling frustration. <---this is just a hunch on our parts, but we're kind of aiming for that to see if it helps.

I do have to say that I had a rough couple of days, but today is better. I went to the dentist on Tuesday and I think that maybe the epinephrine from the novocaine set me over the edge emotionally (couldn't relax). I took another Rollercoaster ride. For the last two days, I felt certain that I could not stay in this M. Last evening, H and I had a wonderful time, and so today I feel positive again.

From reading here, reading the books, and doing the online program, I am starting to learn that I can work towards not reacting to the lows, and instead can remind myself that I WILL come back up to the top of the Rollercoaster. I hope that more will make sense soon because that will be very helpful for me, me-thinks.

Blindsighted2013,

I am amazed at how well you can articulate the agonizing dilemmas of recovery and how well you are logically working out the emotions you are encountering.

YES, recovery from your H's affair will be the hardest thing you will ever go through. And I can't believe I am saying this to a woman who underwent major cancer surgery a year ago.

I went through the exact same conflicts about being vulnerable. I did not want to be vulnerable either. Yet, without vulnerability, the love bank is closed. It's very hard to be open to love, because it means being open to hurt.

It's normal to flip from wanting to recover the marriage to wanting to leave. I wanted to just disappear and not exist anymore (which isn't the same thing as being suicidal.)

I did as you are now doing - trusted that if we followed the MB plan, it would work and somehow, we would come out the other side of the excruciatingly long tunnel whole again. But MB brings an upside to the horror of adultery. MB will cause your marriage to be much much better than it ever was before.

You and your H are looking at the videos and then at your pre-A marriage and realizing that it wasn't as great as you each thought it was. We had the same realization. We'd listen to the audio tapes and the radio shows and again and again realize we hadn't been doing POJA or meeting important ENs. Love-busting here and there. Too much time apart. Too independent.

Just keep learning and doing and practicing.

How is your H doing? Is he "all in" this with you?

How does love come back? Has anyone else on here felt a fleeting spark? I have once before, and I just felt it again tonight. It's wonderful!

Best that I can describe is my heart felt suddenly lighter when I thought of H, and I felt so much hope. It was gone quickly, but it was definitely there.

Would love to hear if others have felt the same.

LWFH, THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for your responses to my posts. Words don't do justice for how much your support, validation, and general sharing mean to both of us.

More reply when I have more time, but I wanted to come online and share my "spark" and also say THANK YOU!

Your LB balance is at the romantic love threshold. That is why you are feeling the "spark". As more LB deposits are made, you will cross the threshold permanently and be in love continuously. Your experience is very normal.

WOW!!! I had a hunch that must be it, but I couldn't imagine how I could feel that just 17 weeks after D-Day.

It feels odd, definitely not like it ever did before...almost like mental emotion that grabs my attention, rather than heart (head over heels) emotion. My description probably doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's not something that I remember ever feeling before. My H says that we have to turn it into a flame thrower now lol.


THANK YOU for the compliment, it totally made my day (and weekend!). Your words help me to stay motivated. To read that it sounds like I am "logical" at anything right now just blew me away.


This was tremendously valuable for me to read this. Validation that I'm on the right track, ya know? Since it feels so awful to be vulnerable, then that is the exact opposite of what we naturally want to do. But it's what we need to do.


I think so that I don't kill everyone's eyeballs, I am going to make a separate post to answer this question. It will follow shortly.

FINALLY....finally....finally....I am starting to cautiously believe that he may be all in.

LWFH, at first (once we started doing MB), we realized that there was sooooo much IB from H, and resentment spurred DJs and AOs from me, that it took every ounce of my remaining stamina to stay aware of my mental gut feelings, just so that I could complain about each and every thing that came up re: his IB and also so that my complaints didn't build up into AOs.

TMI warning: What I finally learned to do (once I practiced learning what it FEELS like to be relaxed) is be aware of when I got that pain in my gutt (intestinal problems from my surgery not healing enough prior to D-Day). I started using that pain to alert me to when something rubbed me wrong and I started recognizing those red flags.

Some little, some big things. Each incident would bowl me over unless H immediately addressed the issue with me and we took the time ASAP to POJA.

He is GETTING IT! I can feel it now. For instance, we came home yesterday and had a game plan that he would do two maintenance things outside the house, while I did two inside the house, and then we would meet together for IC and SF.

I was long done with my things and I noticed that he was outside on a ladder changing spot lights. Ummm.....great that he noticed that they needed changed, but NOT what we had just agreed to and planned for.

I felt instantly sooo sad and tired. Pre-D-Day, I would have been ecstatic that he was taking initiative like this. Post-D-Day it irritates the heck out of me because every single little IB screams in my head that we will never recover. It's that insta-negative attitude that seems to be trauma from D-Day. All or Nothing thinking, kwim?

Well blow me over with a feather!!! Not too long after I noticed the ladder, in walks H and says to me "uh-oh...I just realized that I had IB. I saw that the spotlights needed changed, and I did them without coming in to talk about it. I know that you're sitting in here waiting for me. I'm sorry, that was not thoughtful of me."

OH MY BOB, I was speechless I tell ya! I figure that if he is getting it with the little things, that is huge!

We POJA'd right on the spot, AND we enthusiastically decided that since the ladder was already out, he would clean out the gutters while I made dinner, and then we would spend our UA time together. And we did.

Another example, we went to a public event on Saturday. I still do not handle public well and triggers were everywhere. Someone played a song that used to be our song. Someone else brought up how so and so is getting divorced because her hubby was cheating. UGH, it was awful.

H had his arm around me, or held my hand once he realized what was going on. We got out of there pronto.

He apologized to me over and over because HE felt that he should have planned for those triggers and that HE didn't feel that he kept me safe. He even said that "he" put me in a bad position and did not protect me. That was huge to me because I don't feel that he ever felt the need to "protect" me before now during 33 yrs of M.

Again, I was speechless! But I did process it and we POJA'd it yesterday. I told him that it is up to both of us to think ahead and plan for these things (not just him). We have a new "us" now, and things will never be the same, so for the foreseeable future, we HAVE to have a plan-B for everything. Big lesson learned.

We've never BOTH of us been so interdependent in our lives. YAY!

I know that it's still early in our R, and that we will take steps back. I also know that I can come here and talk about stuff. THANK YOU so much for all of the help that these forums offer. I absolutely know that we wouldn't even be on the road to R yet without this forum.

Also...I did bring up emailing the Harley's, and H is open to it now. So we will probably do that at some point this week.

Any idea on how we can deal with FAMILY triggers from the past?

Now that I am learning to feel a bit human again by focusing only on the present and the future, I am finding that I can *not* stand to think of or speak of the past.

The trouble with this is that our adult daughters reminisce about our family history. My Dad was just over today and fondly talking about stuff that went on a few years ago.

Any thought of the past at all sends me into an "I can't stand the pain" mode. H had a 12 year A, so there is quite a bit of past that I don't want to think about.

So far I've dealt with that yuck by thinking of the Stop Sign, or other techniques from the "dealing with triggers thread".

But what to do when people continue on talking about such a fond memory for them while I am wilting inside? How do I say that I am not comfortable with talking about that? I can easily say "I'm not comfortable talking about that" to acquaintances, but our daughters and my father....this was THEIR life too...

Anyone else think of some fabulous way to deal with things like this?

blindsighted, I would just tell them it is painful to you. They surely would not want you to sit there in pain. They can still discuss their pasts, but it would be thoughtful of them to not do it around you.

Are there any other triggers?

Hi Melody,

Do I have the right to expect them to not speak of their pasts around me? Our 29 year old still lives near us and I guess I can give it a shot gently suggesting that we change the subject. Our 26 year old lives in another state and she is the one that can quite mushy with missing home.

They have both spoken to me recently at how they miss our family get-togethers. We always had everything for the extended family at our house and that hasn't happened in a year because of my illness, and now it won't be happening this year either because of "it". We didn't have Memorial Day, 4th of July, or Labor Day, and we won't be having Thanksgiving. Maybe Christmas...I'll see how I feel by then. But anyway, that is causing a "split" in our extended family a little bit, and that is what upsets our girls. The traditions that they grew up with have suddenly disappeared, kwim?

My Dad is 81 and is having surgery on Monday. I get it, he's afraid, and so he was letting me know what matters to him. I just wilted as I listened to how proud he is of my H and I, ugh. I decided not to expose to Dad because he has had way too much grief and turmoil in these past years. I am willing to feel pain to protect my Dad. He's got a tad of dementia and it's usually easier to divert him. I just thought that maybe someone had some tried and true verbiage to use in such instances.

H and I are both getting pretty good at recognizing other triggers and then avoiding or removing them. We are still working on saving for the coaching program (we already have the program with the online workshop and the lesson plan).

H is doing anything and everything that I ask for to make me feel better, but as time goes on I am getting a bit more careful asking for things....Dr. Harley spoke in the online seminar about creating a fulfilling life for BOTH of us....and I am realizing that there is much about this life that I didn't like, irregardless of D-Day. So to me, some of that stuff is not a "trigger" from the A, but a symptom of just how SEPARATE our lives had become.

We are still new to this Melody, and H still screws up often with small IB. For instance, the other night we put in a new kitchen counter for our adult daughter. We had met there separately and I had to park around the block.

When we were done with the install, we walked out and he got into his car and was just going to be fine with me walking around the block in a secluded area in the dark to get my car. My daughter caught it and told her boyfriend to walk me to my car, and H STILL didn't get it that HE should walk me to my car and then drive back with me to drop him at his car. As soon as I pointed it out, he honestly felt like carp and kept apologizing all night. That's good.

I share in fault for not expecting to be treated special by him for so many years. We were not interdependent at all and we are both babies learning this. I now realize how it is that I WAS totally blindsighted by the A and had no clue that it was going on. It pains me to see the layers and layers unfold as we learn more about Marriage Builders. That's a good thing too though, right?

THANK YOU Melody for all that you do for this forum!

They have both spoken to me recently at how they miss our family get-togethers. We always had everything for the extended family at our house and that hasn't happened in a year because of my illness, and now it won't be happening this year either because of "it". We didn't have Memorial Day, 4th of July, or Labor Day, and we won't be having Thanksgiving. Maybe Christmas...I'll see how I feel by then. But anyway, that is causing a "split" in our extended family a little bit, and that is what upsets our girls. The traditions that they grew up with have suddenly disappeared, kwim?


This happens when there are no affairs. We try to carry on the traditions. As loved ones leave us they can only be missed.


My Dad is 81 and is having surgery on Monday. I get it, he's afraid, and so he was letting me know what matters to him. I just wilted as I listened to how proud he is of my H and I, ugh. I decided not to expose to Dad because he has had way too much grief and turmoil in these past years. I am willing to feel pain to protect my Dad. He's got a tad of dementia and it's usually easier to divert him. I just thought that maybe someone had some tried and true verbiage to use in such instances.


Your dads age and health make it in my opinion best to never tell him.

You have a right to tell anyone when they do something that hurts you. My own son would feel terrible if he unknowingly did something to hurt me and vice versa. So tell them how much it hurts you. There is no reason not to. They don't want to hurt their momma!


I wouldn't call that IB, but it sure is thoughtless. I am very glad you pointed this out to him!! You did good! He can learn to be thoughtful. My DH has become a very thoughtful, sweet man over the years. I am so amazed. He just loves to please me. Be sure and praise him when he gets it right!


You very much understand part of the problem! I did the same thing and once I raised the bar and made it clear that the price of admission to the "princess" has raised, he met the challenge! Of course, he didn't do that out of a sense of duty but because I was successfully meeting his needs. That sure was a motivator..


And thank you too!! I see all the awesome posts you write and am so happy you are here.

H and I are having a problem with Radical Honesty. I would appreciate some opinions please.

I am remembering things that I did prior to his A timeline. They are things that I "would not want my H to know", and so I feel the need to tell him.

After I found out about his A, I DID come clean and admit to my stuff. Horrid stuff, definitely self and M destructive.

I had been on psychotropic drugs that were not monitored correctly, and much of that time period 14 years ago (about 2 years pre H affair) is a blur for me, but as I work at it, I am remembering more.

I WANT to tell him what I am remembering. I want him to know the ugliest of me and know that he still loves me.

H doesn't want to go back there. I mean not at ALL. Last night I asked for his help remembering, and he said "WHY do you want to go back there? Dr. Harley says to focus on the present and the future". He did not have an AO, and he did say that he was willing if I insist, but that he thinks that it will detrimental to me and to us, and that he is not enthusiastic at all about going back there again.

So I changed the subject and figured that I would ask all of you.

We both have realized that our lives were one constant AO back then. I mean BAD BAD BAD, we were indescribably horrible to each other. We've both agreed that if we had not gone into our own corners and lived our own lives, that we would certainly have been divorced (we didn't know about MB back then).

Just like I would be very hurt if H had told me MORE of the details than I asked for about his A....is this similar and I should respect his wishes to not go there?

I do realize that it was H's worst time of his life, and he doesn't want to re-visit it again. It's gutt-wrenching for me also, because my memories are not clear and so it is literally hurting my head trying to recall stuff that I hated and buried about myself from so long ago. But I also do NOT want to sabotage our present and future recovery by not being RH with him.

As for how we are doing now? We are on Lesson 2 in the MB course. I am feeling much much better and stronger each day. Our AOs seem to be a thing of the past. H said last night that he wants to be the man that I married again. And I answered him that he is already better than the man that I married.


HAHAHAHA Melody, I love it! Admission to the "princess"!

I am always in awe of how you put things so eloquently Melody.

I told H some fill-in-the-gap stuff RH last evening, and then he pointed out that perhaps I am trying to work hard so as to justify a "cause" for his having an A, to somehow go back and reconstruct what was the straw that broke the camel's back, kwim?

H reminded me that there is no justifiable reason...and so therefore no need for me to force myself to remember all of my sins from so long ago. Awe! ....LB$$$

So I'm going to do my best to continue looking forward. I felt love last night and said ILU for the first time in almost 5 months. It felt scary but great!

Glad to hear that you will look forward. I think that is best.

I wouldn't understand a need to try to strain to remember stuff. If you remember something that is significant I would tell him (historical honesty), but for the most part, I wouldn't dwell there!

Nah, I don't remember, but I wanted H to help me with filling in gaps. I am okay (now) with him wanting to stay planted in the present.

When I first discovered the A, H of course flung fault at me, and I think that I just wanted accurate historical honesty. You know, own it if it's mine?

It's true what Dr. Harley speaks of in his books...when he met a couple and they start with the complaints about each other, he said that it sounded as if they were speaking of two entirely different incidents.

I may not have said what I meant with this sentence. What I mean is I don't see a point to trying to fill in the gaps. (I definitely understand not remembering!)

That's okay Marcos, I understood your reply. Thanks for your response.

Feelings follow actions...it is finally starting to sink in a bit. Yesterday I woke up in a bad mood, all triggery and just generally feeling angry. No anger allowed. So I made a triple concerted effort to focus on positive feelings throughout the day yesterday, and wouldn't you know it...H and I ended up having a MOST pleasant evening, and I went to sleep feeling content.

POJA isn't just for making decisions...DUH...I know...we have read through the POJA info once on the site, once on my Kindle app when we downloaded the Lovebusters book, and we heard it on the audio CD with the coursework, and THEN last evening read it again as our homework in the Lovebusters book. We FINALLY realized that POJA is also for any conflict.

So we had our first trial run using POJA for dealing with a conflict last evening. We were respectful and gave it a good run. I was surprised and proud of myself that *I* was the one who was needing to remind us to focus on the present and future (usually it is H having to constantly do that). We definitely stayed pleasant and after an hour, we decided to table it and continue that POJA this evening. Looking forward to it!

Good job!! Our first efforts at POJA were a disaster and Dr Harley uses my H and I as the bad example on his radio show. [we are ones who had the fight in the produce section of the grocery store] The POJA was the hardest thing for us.

oh Melody I would love love love to hear that show! Is it still available?

I can see how POJA would be the hardest for many of us. I am just now starting to get it that it simply doesn't MATTER whether I agree with H's ideas, or he with mine...so no sense fighting about it. We both have (had?) a big issue with needing to 'prove our point' lol. Since nothing gets done without enthusiastic agreement, that takes care of that!

I don't know where it is but he said on the radio that he teaches couples to practice the POJA on grocery shopping because groceries are so non-emotional. Then he said, well, I did have one couple who had a big fight in the produce section. Joyce - shocked - said 'they had a fight over groceries??' Dr H goes, 'yes they did!'

Needless to say, we have never shown our faces in that store again!

Here is the whole ugly story: here

I can think of at least TWO times he has used ME as the bad example for learning POJA!

I believe I've heard even more than that! :P

At least one of them was in the first quarter of 2012 - I just re-listened through that time period, and I believe I heard it twice.

Oh man, I can just picture it when he read your post for the first time.

Whodathunk that tortillas and romaine lettuce could evoke such emotion?

Love the way that Dr. Harley cut right to the chase by saying (to your husband) just don't get angry with her when she fails the test.

Things have been seeming to go backwards for me for the last 6 weeks or so and I have finally discovered why.

I need help please knowing what to do now. H has been in contact with OW. It never ended. He hasn't been in physical contact to my knowledge, but there were 50 phone calls between May 7th and September 13, WHEN he did end it himself. But he did NOT tell me about it. Well duh....so he has been in withdrawal...thus the feeling that I am going backwards.

We use a GPS and he was always where he was supposed to be. I would show up un-announced at his work maybe every week or so, but on a different day and time. I monitored his phone calls and nothing out of sorts except for one caller named "Victor" who he said was a work associate.

Nope. It was her. It started as her kids calling (supposedly) and according to him, it was the children being angry at my exposure letter. He states that it progressed to the adult son's phone becoming the OW's phone, and so she could call him whenever she pleased (we had blocked her phone number). He called her as well as she calling him.

I confronted him two evenings ago and he lied at first, just like on D-Day. About an hour later I got the truth (???).

He has now changed his phone number. Also he has hand written a NC letter now (the one from Melody's thread), and I have it in my possession to mail it. What I need to know is if I am supposed to time the NC letter WITH the full blown exposure that we never did before (remember we did not find MB until about 6 weeks after D-Day).

I had done exposure letters to her adult children, but apparently at least one of those letters were not sent to the correct address. She is divorced since 2005, should I sent an exposure letter also to her exH? I checked the court docket of their divorce and he apparently did divorce her due to an affair (perhaps my husband or perhaps someone else as she was involved with more than one man at the same time). SHE told my H that her husband had abused her, but I realize that they all say that. She also told my husband that his second wife had died rather mysteriously (murder) and I checked this info and could not verify it.

Exposure....I never exposed to MY family due to my Dad being 81 years old with health issues. If I tell my own siblings, then they will let my Dad find out. I am the apple of my Dad's eye and this could very well finish him off. But he KNOWS that something is wrong with me now, and seems to think that I am hiding my "return of cancer" from him. Am I better off telling him so that he knows that I am not dying from cancer? Or should I keep going strong and hide it from my family? Our adult daughters do know and I exposed to my extended family (cousins) whom I knew that I could trust not to gossip about it. If it matters, my cousins all advised me not to tell my Dad.

My H quit his job after D-Day and went to work for my brother. If I expose to my brother, it is entirely possible that my brother will fire my H. We are already financially at the precipice of losing everything. Honestly I do not care because I've lost everything already.

I WANT TO SAVE MY MARRIAGE and I don't care if I have to live in a (rented) trailer lol. H of course doesn't feel the same way, BUT he has told me to expose full blown now. With the exception of her grandchildren...he wants me to not tell them?

H wants us to try to save our house and fix it up (it has gone downhill for 13 years since his A) so that at least we have something to walk away with.

H also is willing to try to get a job out of state (he is with the union, so he could get a job within 3-6 months out of state that may last for 6 months to a year, we have done this before. In which case we could save our house.

I also have the OW children's email addresses as well as "group" emails with other email contacts from their email addresses. I have zero clue if these group emails include people from the children's work, etc. Should I expose to all of those? I have not so far found any Facebook info on any of them. Is there a service that I can pay for to find that? I can expose to the OW's immediate neighbors quite easily. Should I do that?

Last question....do I wait to send the NC letter that my husband hand wrote? Should I try to time that with nuclear exposure? Or should I send that now?

Blindsided, I am so sorry to hear about all this. I would most certainly expose the affair to everyone. Including your father and most especially your brother. Your brother might not want a cheater working for him and that is his right. If you go to him with the news, he might give your husband enough notice to find another job for your sake.

I would expose the affair now and then send off the no contact letter.

Can you find the OW's parents and other family members? Does she have a facebook page?

Your dad can be a valuable asset to you right now. Let him step up and support you.

Thanks Melody.

Okay, exposure first and then send the NC letter.

OW is 65 and H says that her parents are deceased. I will do a bit more snooping today to be sure. GOOD point about her possibly having siblings. Photos of family never showed that, so I will do some investigating.

No, she has no FB page. And her children seem to not have pages either. Her grandchildren may, but I do not know their names at all.

What especially bothers me about this false recovery is that H did not come and tell me, even once he HAD cut off contact. He states that it is because he didn't want to damage all of the work that we had done with MB. I told him that he had already damaged it when he had the first contact and did not tell me. He doesn't GET it.

It sounds like he is just gaslighting you.
I think you should insist on a lie detector test.
He already sent a No Contact letter, will this be different?

How close does she live?
Uou may need to.move
I'm sorry.

Yes gaslighting. At the very least, fog babble. Sounds like he is proud of himself that he cut off contact. I guess that IS much better than the alternative, eh?

He didn't follow MB and I could feel it when he went into withdrawal. That is NOT me saying that I believe him. He is a fantastic liar.

No Jedi, he never had sent a NC letter before. We found MB after he had supposedly cut off all contact. This one is hand written by him and exactly copied off of Melody's thread. I put it into the envelope myself and I'm holding onto it until I expose. Working on more snooping for her family today.

I also did a half-acked exposure before. I'm quite fine with going atomic exposure now. This is war.

She lives two cities away, about 30 minutes drive. We both have GPS on our phones. He goes NO WHERE without me except to work. He quit his previous job where he drove past her house...went to work for my brother so that he was accountable.

My brother will be the first person that I expose to now. IF he doesn't fire my H, then my brother will also watch him like a hawk. My brother was also cheated on and left standing alone last year after 30 yrs of marriage, which is why I bet that he will fire my H. So be it.

Yep to moving. Originally, LWFH mentioned it first to me, and Melody and others, so I've known that it would probably have to be that way.

THANK YOU for your care. I don't know how I would begin to have any direction to get through this without all of you.

Blindsighted, I am so sorry that you are going through this. Your story is a prime example of why corners should not be cut when going into recovery. Please follow through on doing everything now.


This is why it is important that the WS change all of their contact info. Also, verify any number that you don't recognize. There are websites that charge a very small monthly fee for reverse look-ups. I find it invaluable


A No contact letter must be sent from the very get go. Even if they said "well, i sent her a text!". A NC letter should be handwritten and sent certified mail. Any further contact from AP would be considered harassment afterwards and grounds to file criminal charges.



Yes, exposure should have done completely from the beginning .



Ask your brother to not fire him and to support your marriage. Your brother would be a good accountabilty partner.


Yes, moving is often recommended and a very good way to leave the old garbage behind and get a fresh start with a stronger marriage.

Working away here. I checked Facebook before and found nothing because it seems that all of her children use odd names on their Facebook accounts. This time, I read a site that told me that I could also look people up by their emails or phone numbers (I'm not FB savvy, can you tell?)

Bingo!!!

I've got contacts now for all of her children, their spouses and/or significant others. I know for certain that the contacts are correct because the OW is plastered all over their family photos.

Also found a possible good friend that the OW may have worked with. I can't be sure, but it popped right up in FB when I searched that email. She IS from the same location. This email was one of five that the OW had on a forwarded email that she sent to my husband. Do I risk exposing to her even though I am not certain of who she is?

Do I expose to the OWs neighbors on either side of her? Should I expose to our neighbors?

Blindsighted,

Please expose to your siblings, to your father, to your friends, to your children that contact with the OW has continued in spite of the promise to stop and in the face of your very deep and real hurt and pain. Your father is unlikely to die having this information. He will be supportive to you and hopefully call your husband and tell him that he (your husband) is doing a terrible thing to the woman he promised in front of God, friends, and family to love and cherish for life.

Expose to the OW's family and friends, including to her grandchildren, if you have any contact info. Ask your own contacts for help in ending the affair by holding your husband accountable and telling him to stop contacting the OW. Ask the OW's contacts to tell her stop contacting your husband and wrecking your marriage.

Make sure the no contact letter to OW goes out! You don't need to wait for exposure to mail it.

Is it possible that your husband's phone be "adjusted" to receive and make calls only to and from certain numbers? I don't know much about smart-type phones, as I have a dumb phone, but it seems people can do all kinds of things with them.

The sooner you can both get away from there, the better.

I posted before you did.

Great job in locating contacts!

Yes, I would expose to all those people, including neighbors. They will make it harder for OW and your H to carry on their affair in front of their eyes. Ask them for their help in ending the affair.

Letting everyone know will put pressure on the OW and on your husband. It lets the light of day shine on the affair, taking away the thrill of the secrecy. Now everyone will know what they have been doing. It won't be as much "fun" anymore for either of them.

Be prepared for possible negative feedback. Seems like most of the time, there are a few people who think it's wrong to "shame" others by exposing, but they don't know how to deal with infidelity. Some will hopefully actually be proactive and help you. But at least they will all know and they will be looking with disgust at the OW. And probably at your H, too.

Blind, you must also pay $1 when you send those PM's to her family members. Otherwise, it goes in their spam box and they never see it. Send them from a PC and not a tablet or phone.

OMG!! I never knew this!! What an amazing resource. Thanks for posting this!

Rocket, can you share the site that you use to reverse look up cell numbers? A small monthly fee sounds very worth it.

Melody, are there instructions someplace that I can find to learn how to pay the dollar fee on Facebook?

Thank you, more later everyone. I am reading as posts come in, but We had a snowstorm today and lost power, so I am not as efficient at keeping multiple windows open on my iPad.

Oh and I did talk with my brother for a long while this afternoon, it was wonderful to unburden my life to someone that cares so much. He is definitely going to support our marriage. He is going to go with me to expose to my dad. I sent my brother a link to my posts here. Hi Brother!

It should pop up when you try to do it. Just go to their "message" button, write out the message and hit send. If you do this on a PC, a box will pop up giving you the option to pay $1 to put it in their inbox.

Ahhh okay, I will have to wait until we have power then. I've only ever messaged people that are already my friends on FB.

Thank you!

Sure, I use spokeo.com. I think it's like 5 bucks for 3 months.

We got our power back late last night, yay!

My brother is going with me today to tell my Dad. After I tell Dad, then I will stop at the post office to send the NC letter certified mail.

Then I will come home I will write out my exposure letters to the rest. I will post them here before sending them.


I appreciate all of this reminder, LWFH. I have a feeling that I will need to keep reminding myself of all of this. It's going to be tough for me to see my H go through this. But obviously necessary and I will do it.

I promise that I won't purposely deviate in one single thing. You all feel free to 2x4 me if you see that I am getting slack in anything.

I still have to deal with his email (she is blocked, plus I have the password and can see it at any time...but better to close that account and open a new one).

Also, I hear what Jedi says about a polygraph, so I will find out how to schedule that. We WERE saving up for the extra for the coaching part of MB, but I think that a polygraph just became more important, agreed?

LWFH, I don't know about only allowing certain numbers on his cell phone. I know that there is some sort of parental controls for websites and apps, but not sure about phone numbers. I will check.

Thank you Rocket for sharing your tip about spokeo. I totally missed that they had a monthly option. Appreciate it!

Don't want you to think I was giving you a 2x4, I was using your post as an example to others. Many come here thinking "well, we can skip that part" or decide not to expose. I hope your story shows them that you can't pick and choose

Oh my goodness NO Rocket, I did not take anything in your post as a 2x4. I definitely WANT all of you to analyze every single thing that I say on here. Same with H as he has promised that after this exposure, that he will register and post here also.

We absolutely NEED all of you!

And yes, if others can learn anything from our experience, that will be wonderful.

Here.
Polygraph Testing

well this sure feels like a big pile of POOP, but I exposed all over the place to both his and my family today, and our neighbors.

My Dad was wonderful and I'm so happy that you all talked me into telling him.

I also went and sent the NC letter via certified mail. She should have it on Monday.

When do I expose to her family and friends? Do I wait until Monday or should I do it now?

Here is the exposure letter for her side of the family, what do you think?


Hello,

My husband XXX has been having an ongoing affair with your mother, XXX.

XXX did work at your mother's house, and in approximately 1999, a physical affair ensued. This went on for 1-1/2 to 2 years, ended, but then resumed in 2007, and continued until I discovered the affair. My husband states that he does NOT want a divorce and we are trying to heal our marriage.

Your mother has continued to contact my husband in spite of his request to end all contact. I would like to ask for your help in asking her to stop attempting to wreck our marriage.

Thank you,
XXX's Wife of 32 years, XXX
_________________________
DDay - May 7, 2013 (I discovered his 12 year affair)
DDay #2 - October 22, 2013
BS - Me, 50
FWH - Him, 52
Married 32 yrs.

How about,
"My husband states he does NOT want a divorce, and we are working to repair our marriage."

"Trying" is too iffy, I think...

Thanks catwhit, changing it now.

So when should I expose to her side? She should receive the NC on Monday.

Expose now! You don't need to wait for her to get the NC letter.


I think what you wrote sounds fine, Blindsighted; I added in a couple of changes in red that I would use if it was me sending the letter.

You are doing great so far. Keep it up and be sure to take good care of your health. Is there any way you two could get away for a while? No phones or computer?

Your husband will have to radically change his lifestyle in order to completely end his entrenched long-term affair. Do you and he realize this?

We have had a few LTAs on this forum and the ones that were successful were so because they now spend all their time together and/or are accountable for every minute of the day.

He must not have the ability to contact that OW by phone or email or by driving to meet her somewhere.

Please don't have him rely on willpower; willpower doesn't work too well. It's better to have the temptation completely removed. Logic is also not going to work too well for him. He is running on his emotions right now. And our emotions are not very intelligent.

Got it LTWF, thank you!

YES, H is home now and we are going out with each other. No phones or computers.

Talk with you later, THANK YOU ALL!!!!!

G'Morning all, I have our family photo ready to post to my FB and do exposure on her side.

Before I do that, I want to ask....will her family be able to see MY friends and family names on my FB? I don't care if they start contacting anyone else, but I don't want them to be able to contact our daughters.

I'm thinking YES, so should I make a new FB account (say in my and H's name) and use that to expose?

two more questions...

1) H is getting very worn down with us talking about this all again. I understand that it truly is awful for him, especially after the mass exposure that I did yesterday...except that now I know that I do NOT have all of the details. Should I still just shut up and wait for the polygraph? It could be a couple of weeks before I can come up with the $ for that.

2) UA time...last night when we went out, I tried my best to be positive, but I could barely think of anything else. I would say that I talked about it about 25% of our time together. With UA time, I AM supposed to shut up about it and focus only on positive, correct?

On FB, you can select the Privacy Settings to whatever type of viewer can see the Friends list, or individual friends. Best to allow no one to be able to view the family members you want to shield from blowback.

During UA time, there should not be any R discussions. It is to be Enjoyable Recreation time fulfilling EN's.

LTL

Thanks LTL, okay her exposure is done. I appreciate the help with how to hide things on FB!

I figured about the UA time. Makes sense. Just fun time (tough to think of doing that right now, but I WILL!).

Blindsighted, did you also re-expose this to your daughters? They need to know their father has continued his affair despite all your pain and your efforts to recover. Ask them to put pressure on their father to end his disgraceful affair with the OW immediately. A father's adultery very much affects daughters, because they often feel the adultery also betrays them.

Is everything regarding your finances completely transparent to you? Do you have passwords to every single account? Do you regularly monitor them? Have you checked your credit reports? You should make sure you see the monthly statements for every financial account.

That is exactly the truth. No talking about the affair during UA time.

Yes LWFH and now there is new news. I sent out 62 exposure messages through FB and got six responses from her friends, but NONE from her family (at first...I have now gotten one...but keep reading).

I told my husband how I thought it so odd that her family did not even respond asking me to stop, and my husband then proceeded to admit to me that he borrowed someone's cell phone at work and left a message on her home phone to warn her of the exposure!!!!

We had both been reading on here, we had BOTH made the decision to expose. He brought it up! And now this.

I cannot afford a polygraph until at least this coming week, and with that, we will not be able to pay the budgeted bills if I pay for the poly instead. Seems that is what I have to do though, right?

As for the family member's response, it was only one of her sons. His message looks like he copied it off of FB's policy. It came from the son and is not a message from FB. I did not get this message until 4 hours after the last exposure went out, so all damage did get done, and I got receipts for each $1 charge to my inbox. I sent them at least 3 minutes apart like it said to do in Melody's exposure thread.

..(copied from FB inbox)...Facebook does not tolerate bullying or harassment. We allow users to speak freely on matters and people of public interest, but take action on all reports of abusive behavior directed at private individuals. Repeatedly targeting other users with unwanted friend requests or messages is a form of harassment.

Sorry, I haven't kept up with your full thread, Blindsighted. Just so that I am sure I understand correctly: Your husband called the OW?s house?

I THOUGHT that he realized. I really did. Obviously, I was wrong.

Today I told him that we may have to decide for him to quit his job with my brother and now work only with me. If he does that, there is a large chance that we will face financial ruin, as the bills from pre-D-Day are still way too high for my business to support them all.

But what do we do? Choose to save us? Or choose to save our finances? If we get a divorce, our finances will face certain ruin.

Another idea that we had is to buy a voice activated recorder that he must leave on from the second that he pulls out of our driveway each day to the second that he returns. They make tiny ones now for about $150 and he IS willing to do this.

I also suggested that if we did that, the very first time that it "malfunctions" and doesn't record, he quits his job that day.

I just don't know if that is enough for me now. Even if it "malfunctions" one time, I will never be certain that he hasn't lied to me and made contact with her again.

He also said that he is willing to sign a post-nuptual agreement signing everything over to me including his retirement account, if he makes ANY contact with her ever again.

What do you all think?

We both heard you loud and clear. He is outside cutting up a tree from that snowstorm that we had the other day. After that, he is coming in and opening a screen name here and will make his first post.

Amen! Obviously it's all coming out now. I sure hope that this is ALL of it.

How do we make sure that all opportunity is gone? I've honestly been babysitting him like a hawk, and he has ACTED fine with it.

Rocket, I did sign up with spokeo, thank you very much for the tip.

LWFH, yes I had re-exposed to our daughters, and thanks to your tip, I also texted them today to let them know the new info about him warning her.

Thank you to all of you for looking out for me and for THINKING for me when I am so tired. I appreciate it more than I can type adequate words for.

Yes, he used someone else's phone at his work, so that I could not know. He admitted it to me that he called and left a message on her answering machine. HE states that he said "you're going to be exposed" and hung up. I have no way of verifying.

Your husband contacted the OW? Surely I am not reading this right.

The fact that he is still in contact with the OW would make me consider going into Plan B. He obviously didn't mean the no contact letter he wrote. This is all a sham.

Unfortunately, you read it right.

Should I do so immediately, Melody? I can do it right now this second if you think that is the only hope that we have.

Read my couple previous posts to see what else we talked about today. But if you tell me plan B right now, I'll do it.

He's supposedly read lots of MB material.

Yet he called her house.

I'd like to challenge him to come here and explain to me, just what part of "no contact" does he not understand? Maybe he & I can dialogue it out & get to the bottom of why he thought calling the OW would ever be an OK thing to do.

I am in shock that your husband is so brazen that he would accept your "forgiveness" and turn around and call the OW ............AGAIN!! You are nowhere close to being in recovery, my friend. You are just being played. And I am not sure why. A WS who will continually contact the OW after he KNOWS how devastated his spouse is, is downright dangerous. And certainly not sincere.

He lied to you about ending contact and is still in contact with her. That is Plan B time, my friend. This guy is not serious in any sense of the word.

Blindsighted, your husband's warning to the OW and her family is why MB strongly recommends exposure with NO warning. It's a completely unexpected tsunami wave of truth. Try not to worry about the response you received from OW's son. It's sad that a person would respond that way, but that is often the case with exposure. Your H and OW probably told them you were "nuts."

You are trying so hard to be nice and negotiate with your husband, but he's still foggy and addicted to OW. Don't negotiate with a wayward. You have to play "smart."

Have any of the people who responded said they would try and help? Can your family, each and every one of them, call your husband and tell him he's making the biggest mistake of his life? Will your daughters each call their father and tell him to stop his despicable behavior, that they hope and pray that their husbands never do this to them? I would ask them all to help you as much as possible by putting pressure on your husband to end his affair.

Meanwhile, Blindsighted, unless you can make absolutely certain that all contact has ended and your husband is accountable for the minutes of his day, you should be considering a dark separation. As long as your H contacts the OW, he will be emotionally unavailable to work on your marriage. His destructive behavior will quickly drain his account in your love bank. Also, the strain on you is going to ruin your health. At least start thinking of a plan - how you could finance a dark separation, where you would live, that kind of thing.

He just came inside this second and is begging me to please still let him post here and then see what you all say. What do you think I should do?

He cared more about forewarning the OW than he did his own marriage. That should tell you how serious this guy is.

How about bringing him here to speak to us? I am afraid for you now.

okay he is going to make a screen name right now and I will come here and post a link as soon as he makes his first post. I take it that it should be in surviving an affair and not here?

Tell him to explain to me why he thought contacting the OW is OK for a guy in his shoes? (Shoes I've walked in, by the way.) I wanna hear if he's planning to dress up as a tree stump for Halloween, or if he's actually as dumb as one. You can't recover from an affair untli you "get" (meaning: understand, internalize, and scrupulously adhere to) no contact, forever.

SAA is fine. He sure is not in recovery!!

Wife & I are going out for steak. I'll be back later to talk to TreeStump. Which would be a good username for him.

okay he is typing now. I set him up on my work laptop so that I can still post here too.

He has to type one-handed due to losing fingers on his left hand, so he takes a minute. I told him to make a fast introductory post and then I will link it here.

I can see him. Dumbman, right?

I know it is water under the bridge, but do you see now why you should never tell a WS about exposure?

Hahaha, yes I do believe that is him! Too bad I didn't read GloveOil's idea for a screen name first.

Melody and Glove, and all of you....I love you, you just made me laugh. THANK YOU!

oh definitely, Melody. Not a very smart excuse for me to say this...but it was almost HIS idea! The other day as soon as he admitted to phone contact until Sept 19th, HE told me that we needed to start everything from scratch and do a nuclear exposure. And HE told me that he would write that NC letter on the spot. I'm soooo stupid to have believed him!

And it was a SHAM. It meant nothing.

okay, here he is.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...at&Number=2762755&gonew=1#UNREAD

What will stop him from going to work tomorrow and calling the OW again?

Nothing. One idea was a VAR on his person at all times. I already have the GPS at all times. But I don't know any more if I want that total worry, to be honest with you (worrying about if it malfunctions and I can't believe him).

Which is why I suggested that he has to quit his job with my brother and work for me. I will only be able to afford to pay him half of what he is making now. And we will run the risk of going under financially due to his A.

But if we D then we face certain financial ruin.

He DID say earlier that he would do a post-nup and agree to signing over everything to me if he ever contacts her again. He has a sizable retirement account. I could negotiate the pre-nup that he has to retire now (he is totally vested) and take that $ as a lump sum to put into an IRA. So if we later divorce, I could take all of that $.

BS, I am trying to get caught up on your thread but you MUST STOP viewing this very foggy wayward as someone who has your best interest at heart.

Do NOT believe a word that comes out of his mouth, do you understand me? It is very clear from the little bit that I have read that he is using your kindness and trust against you.

Yes, I now have everything LWFH. All passwords, all balances. Yes to credit reports but his is trashed due to pre-A. I do see all of the monthly statements.

Nope, not believing anything now. Thank you Susie.

I am willing to kick him out tonight if you all tell me that is what needs to happen. I am also willing to make him live 24/7 with me, quit his job and work for me if you think there is ANY hope at all.

This is WAY THE HECK bigger than anything I've ever had in my life, even ovarian cancer. I am numb and in a nightmare right now, but I am NOT weak. I will do what you say.

Backing up to reply to this. What do you mean LWFH by playing "smart"? I have been trying to follow MB but that is because I thought that he was being honest. Now by "smart" do you mean that I call all of the shots and no more POJA until I (hopefully) am certain that he has NC? Or do you mean that I don't tell him anything that I am thinking? Sorry to be so naive, I AM naive obviously...I need it spelled out please.

Yes, I asked my girls to call and neither of them want to get into the middle of it. Same with other family members. After 33 years, everyone loves both of us. Everyone is sorry for us. Everyone wishes us the best. Everyone is staying out of it.

Walk in there and tell him to stop playing the dumb and stupid card. You can tell him it won't work here.

Who is the "friend" whose phone he used to call the OW? Can you drive over there and take a look at his phone log?

I wouldn't do a post-nup. But I would be brainstorming to find ways to affair proof your marriage.

I should clarify my previous post. My brother was cheated on and left high and dry last year, and so he IS trying to help in any way possible (and is a wonderful support for me right now).

He is reading my thread and just called to tell me that he is willing to hire a laborer that has to ride with my H to all jobs, and this laborer will report to my brother each day about my husband's every move.

No idea Melody, but I did just go in and tell him to stop playing dumb and stupid. He looked at me wondering what I was meaning, if that helps at all.

As for the friend, it was someone he worked with at that job on that day. Should I tell him that I get to go there on Monday and look at it, and if I see her number and HOW LONG they talked, then he gets to stay? And if I don't get to see it, then he is out of here?

By playing smart, I mean that you need to NOT reveal your strategies in busting up the affair, don't tell him of any snooping devices or strategies you will be using. Breaking up an affair requires strategy and you don't want to be giving your H heads up on what you are doing.

The first order of business is to find a way to end all contact with the OW.

I'm just so sorry about not getting much help from your family and friends. I know many people take this gutless path, "we love both of you," "don't want to take sides," You could always gently tell them you don't want them to take sides either, but only be on the side of the marriage. And they will be doing your H a great favor by trying to steer him away from what he will look back on as the greatest mistake of his life. That's what they could helping with.

For now, you are in Plan A, not recovery. Step back a bit on meeting your H's ENs, until NC is firmly in place and he has agreed to and is abiding by all the conditions of recovery. Express your willingness to meet his ENs once the affair is over for good. Avoid all love busters. And be considering how you would manage a separation...just in case. It always helps to have a plan of escape. And don't tell him. This is not the time for radical honesty.

So do you think that there is any hope if I make him quit his job and work for me? I would see his every single move. Or work for my brother WITH a laborer accompanying him at all times? I'm honestly not so sure I am good with that...I am in sales Melody and I haven't recognized my H's BS for the last five months...I'm pretty good at seeing it in others, but is there any hope that he wouldn't immediately BS a young laborer?

Okay, so keep to myself more and no radical honesty, CHECK.

You all can figure out how I caught wind of his convo with OW and I do have to say, it is ODD that I did not hear him cut me down. BUT I've wondered about an affair phone. Yet again if he had an affair phone, he wouldn't have borrowed someone else's. I guess that Monday will tell.

GREAT point about asking them to just be on the side of marriage. We shall see. Our daughters are totally angry at him and yet they NEED him...he has never been there for them pre-D-Day...and now he has been there for both of them. So I get that they are loving that. I'm happy for them and I don't want to push any more on that.

Okay, so Plan A, you all are telling me to prep for Plan B then, right? Please spell it out. Yes I will step back on meeting his needs, I did that quite well this evening. And I let him know that I will resume once the A is over. But how will I know?

As for manage a separation, I have figured that he has to leave the house, I take a few months to work gangbusters to get myself some $, and then I leave and he has to pay for 1/2 of my place plus he has to pay for this whole house plus fixing up the house to sell. Does that sound right?

Blindsighted, I have to leave for the evening, because we have an appointment to keep.

But yes, you have it right. Keep all your plans to find out about the A and all snooping completely to yourself. Be very calm and cool, pleasant. And the reason for stepping back on meeting his ENs while in Plan A is to protect your love bank. It's excruciating to be going all out to meet your H's needs only to find out....So you need to protecting your health, both physical and emotional.

Just keep thinking of Plan B steps in case they are needed. Try and get your H to leave the house if you go into Plan B.

That might be the best solution for now. I am thinking he needs to write a letter admitting his affair and send it to the OW's family members. Obviously she lied to them and told them some story about your exposure.

THANK YOU SO MUCH to all of you! On a Saturday night too...prime UA time! I am totally blown away and I want so tell you that after I get my head (back) on straight, you know that I will help others and pass this on.

Okay Melody, so not sure if he would go with a TRUE "what happened" letter, but I'm laying low and will ask.

I'm thinking you also hit it on the nose asking about the "friends" phone. If I see the log and it says a one minute call, then he is telling the truth about leaving a message. If not, then I think immediate plan B, no?

He will have to leave the home, LWFH. My business is here. It will take me a couple of months to move to a new place. Plus, this is my busiest time of the year coming up, when I make about 75% of my income....and this carp is already cutting into that.

Yes, you leave and have a nice evening! You all are amazing and I appreciate every second of your time, THANK YOU!

Good Morning/ Afternoon all, I am here and making breakfast for us. WAY more has come out and my H is going to be posting soon. We have to eat though so it will be a bit, just didn't want you all to think that I was ungrateful, or that something was wrong. Well, it's wrong lol, but I am fine. I'll be back soon.

B, how far away does the OW live? When was his last contact?

And did your husband see our suggestion to send a letter to the OW family telling the truth? I believe he needs to do this to make up for his forewarning that skank.

Melody,

He just posted and briefly described, In His Opinion, that they discussed any and all questions that BS2013 had, YET.....

There was no comment, YET, about sending out the letter to all of the exposed parties, affirming that BS2013 was truthful in her exposure.

That must be done immediately, with no waffling and further delays.

Talk is cheap, IMO. Actions need to follow the words, with conviction and remorse.

LTL

Melody and ALL, I cannot thank you enough for drawing this out of him!

OW lives two towns and about 30 minutes away from us. His last contact was leaving a message on her answering machine to warn her of the exposure. Before that, his last contact was Sept. 14th, by telephone. His last physical contact was on May 4th.

If you are thinking along the lines of addiction and taking away any future opportunity, I am going to make another post right after this about my feelings on that.

Yes, he saw the suggestion to make a letter to the OW family. Your note was perfect in my eyes. I would be happier if, instead of FB this time, if he hand-wrote one note and then xeroxed that note in his own hand-writing, to snail mail to her children and family.

What do you think of that idea instead of FB?

I think that is just fine! My only concern is that, once again, he will call the OW to tell her it is coming so she can tell everyone you just forced him to do it.

You are the one that needs to feel compensated, validated and safe.

I feel Both methods, the snail mail and FB would ensure it gets to the proper audience.

How can your H prove that he will not warn the POSOW once again?

What would 100% convince you?

Are you going to be able to view his friends cell phone phone log to verify if the previous warning was a 1 minute voice mail message or an in depth heart to heart conversation?

Don't let the truth get buried by only concentrating on the current todays conversations.

LTL

LWFH had previously mentioned an entrenched affair...good call, LWFH!

Obviously it is entrenched more than I even had a clue. Bigger than I imagined. Bigger than H has ever dealt with.

As I mentioned yesterday, my brother has offered to hire a laborer FROM HIS CHURCH, and to tell this man the whole story, and have the laborer go with my H everywhere on the job. That is SO kind of my brother, but honestly I am soooo tired right now that I don't know if I will even be secure enough with that.

I suppose I can try it and see how I feel? Do I need to put on my big girl panties and ignore some of these fears that I have? I'm absolutely trusting of all of you who have been here before, and so I want to listen to what you suggest. I think that I'm just really tired and worn down after these last few days. I wish that we could afford a vacation lol.

See that's the thing here. I DON'T know if anything can 100% convince me. I feel like the only thing that will ever 100% convince me for a long, long time from now...is if H is with me 24/7 and I can see it with my own eyes and ears.

I suppose if he CALLED each of her children in front of me and told them this? Then I would know for certain? But honestly that thought makes me sick. I don't want him to have any more contact with any of them. Did he tell you on his thread how his adult children KNEW that their Mom was having an affair with a married man? And that they invited them into their families around their own children? But irregardless, if you all feel that it will help me to hear him saying this to people, I will do it.

I don't know if I will be able to view the cell phone that he made the call on. There are different trades and different people at each job each day. My brother can get me the name of the company that was there that day, and I can call if need be to ask who remembers loaning their phone out, but honestly they may not even remember who my husband is. There are tons of different trades there each day.

LTL, can you explain what you mean by not letting the truth get buried due to today's convo?

Whatever YOU want. You have all the cards here. You are the one whose heart was ripped out, and so forth. If you want to recover, we can help you.

If you do not want to recover with him, then we can help you with that too.

Your H knows who he borrowed a cell phone from. I've been in the trades too for over 35 years and i wouldn't most likely ask a stranger on the job site.

That's what i was referring to. Don't allow that piece of verifying his spin on the contact to POSOW get buried or delayed.

Heck, he probably knows the guy casually. The two of you drive to meet him together without him forwarning that friend why you guys need a favor and to see him today

LTL

Is he writing the letter yet?

LTL

I am on the phone with my brother right now, be back in a few.

BS2013, I would just have him write the letter and get it sent out. After that, let it go.

I think it might be a good idea to have the laborer go with your husband for NOW, but I would be thinking about long term solutions. Your H is withdrawing from a long term affair where the OW lives right there by you. That will keep you triggered and him triggered and will probably prevent you from ever recovering. She is too easy to access and he will be endlessly fighting the temptation.

I would be thinking about ways to move to another state and perhaps buying a business so you can both be together all day. It won't happen overnight, but I would start thinking along those lines.

Yes, he is hand writing the letter right now. He is pretty much copying what you wrote, Melody. Thank you.

I have a business already and he can work for me, but you're right (and my biz can go anywhere), I would rather get our ducks in a row and plan for that. Yes to triggering, absolutely. This summer was already horrible for me to be around here, and I didn't even know the entire truth then.

B, my H had a long PA that he buried for two years after my discovery at about 6 weeks, and then after that two years carried it on for about another year, even though I was extracting promise after promise from him never to see his whore again. He then gave up the travelling part of his job, but continued talk to her frequently for another six months until I discovered MB and exposed to her H. (In 2007 it wasn't clear from reading either these forums or Surviving an Affair that I needed to expose to his employers and get him moved and monitored, or fired, from the job.) After that exposure, the lies that they told each other came out via me and the other BS, and they appeared to fling abuse at each other and break up for good. However, OW contacted my H after about 6 months and they talked periodically on the phone at work after that. She was waiting to hear that his marriage had broken up, or that he felt that his son was old enough to do without his father, and so would leave me for her. Those phone calls continued for 5 years after the PA ended, without their ever laying eyes on each other. (I gathered this fact from an email I intercepted.) I discovered this continuing 5-year contact at the point when my H was due to take early retirement from his job, and so needed to set up email contact with her via our home PC, which was monitored.

After that D Day, it was only the fact that he was retiring and would therefore no longer have access to a workplace PC, landline or mobile phone, that finally cut off the contact with his whore. I have no doubt that if he still had a job - even a different job - she would contact him, and, given his strong feelings for her, he would willingly speak to her and see her again one day.

The point of my long thread-jack is to tell you that in my experience, and from everything I have heard and read Dr H say, your only hope of keeping your H away from his whore is for him to be with you full-time. Putting a DVR in his pocket is no real protection. How much noise does sending a text message via a pre-paid phone make?

He needs to take that job with you. After 12 years this addiction is too strong for you to be able to monitor remotely, and you cannot go through any more of this.

Oh dear Lord, I didn't realise she lived nearby. I was lucky enough that my H's whore lives in another country (Belgium, and we live in the UK; not a vast distance in miles but the English Channel and border controls make it hard for people to drop in on each other).

Mel is right; you need to be working on a move. Her advice of a supervised job with your brother right now and a move ASAP is the right advice.

Oh SugarCane, I am soooo sorry for what you have gone through. I don't even know what to say. It had to be so very difficult to share that all with me, and I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart.

That was not a thread-jack at all. Please feel free to offer any of your experience that you see fit.

I am TOTALLY taking you seriously. Extremely good point about a text not being heard on an affair phone.

We have been brainstorming all afternoon. We just listed what all that we have here to sell, and we would still not have enough $ for us to pay off all of his debts so that we could afford to move right now.

If he goes to work for me right now, there is a SLIM chance that by us working to sell off all that we can, PLUS working our butts off at my job so that we can bring in enough extra to cover more pay (plus hospitalization!) for him, that we MAY be able to squeak it out paying off our debts and be in a better position to have options.

OR he could continue to work for my brother and have that laborer go with him everywhere. That would be the best choice financially. But like I told H, is the laborer going to go into the bathroom with him and watch while he goes? Sorry to be so picturesque, but THAT is the time that he could contact her any time that he chose.

And Dr. H has said that withdrawal takes 3-6 months...we are betting that it is longer with a long term A.

IS THIS THE TIME THAT I SHOULD BE TAKING THE CHANCE THAT HE WILL NOT BLOW IT AGAIN?

So that is where we are at the moment, still brainstorming. We just took a break to do some chores around the house and we will be thinking still while we get some stuff done.

You know what? H did hand write the letter and xerox it. But I just don't even think that is going to make me feel any better right now. Sorry to be wishy-washy about it. This morning I felt so tired that I couldn't quite pin-point what I was feeling, but now I have a good grip on it (I think).

Here's the thing...the kids all knew what their Mom was doing and that my H was married. Those kids are not really worth another second of my time.

If I send these letters (that he did get all ready for me to personally mail), it is only going to cause me 2-3 more days of grief about this. BECAUSE no matter what he put into this letter, they are not going to believe that I didn't "make" him do it. That's obviously just the type of folks that we are dealing with. They don't care about others, or families, and definitely not ME.

How is that JC for me? I don't really want to be the topic of any more of their conversation if I can help it.

I will try to brainstorm some different JC for me, as I agree that I need it. I just don't think that is *it*.

Does that make sense? What do you think?

It wasn't difficult at all to share that with you, but I'll tell you what was difficult. I couldn't post to your thread at all until these events unfolded; it was too difficult to tell you that your heart was going to be broken again, which I knew it was.

When I read your story of a 12-year affair, I couldn't post any encouragement while you seemed to believe that D Day had changed your H, so I thought it better not to post at all. I think that a long affair becomes such an ingrained way of life that it isn't given up on D Day unless the WS is locked in a cell without any means of communication. Neither party to the affair can accept that they are never going to be in contact again, and all it takes is some means of breaching NC for their feelings towards each other to kick in and for him to disregard the promise he again made to you.

My H's was 8 years (PA followed by EA), and although I couldn't believe it for a long time after D Day, he never planned to leave me for her. It took a lot of piecing together of emails that her H discovered and sent me, and confessions, and scrutiny of hotel and credit card receipts and train timetables to realise the lengths that my H went to to keep his marriage going through the affair. He dumped this woman about a dozen time after either her H or I discovered the affair because he never intended to make a go of it with her. He wanted to have a home with me and his kids and to have her on the side, but that urge to keep seeing her and have sex with her was enough for him to kick me in the teeth for over 8 years and through about 10 D Days, until he was retiring from his job.

What was hard for me was not telling you this story, but telling you when you first got here that your H's affair wasn't over. I very much doubt that it's over today, either. He really intends it to be over because he does not want to lose you, but the moment she breaks through and contacts him, he will respond. I do know that much.

You need to move, as Mel said, and then be with him all the time. Nothing else will work after such a long affair.

Awe, SugarCane, well I appreciate your being candid with me now. THANK YOU SO MUCH!

Yep, totally. You say it so gently. It's such an ugly truth. The thorn has seeded long ago, and just like weeds that come back every spring, no matter how deeply we dig those roots out, it will always be there?

Can I ask what made you decide to keep trying with your H?

Ugh, Ugh, Ugh. Your story is ringing more bells. I was able to get emails back to 2007, and he broke up with her, she broke up with him. She broke up because he wouldn't leave me. He must have promised to leave me after our kids were grown, and then not too long after the youngest moved out, she broke up with him again. All of these break-ups seemed to last a couple of days.

Yes, the lengths to conceal. Like Melody said on his thread, sly like a fox, not a dumb fox.

Thank you for being totally to the point. Okay, so really that means that he must quit his job now, and he must work with me for the rest of his life. And we must move.

But I have to ask one (devil's advocate) question here....I can see the working together and being together 24/7...but what good under this situation will it really do to move? She could still find him and contact him. Or are you meaning that because we are HERE and he knows she is only 30 minutes away, that it makes it that much easier to give into temptation?

It is not only easy to give into the temptation, but as long as he stays in that environment, she will remain top of mind.

I don't know that I decided to keep trying with my H. It was more a case that he begged me to let him try after each D Day, and so I did. During the D Days my younger child's age ranged from 6 to 14, and I thought it was worth staying together for him. On the last D Day in 2011 I was ready to end the marriage, but again he begged me to stay. At that point a genuine recovery seemed possible because he was leaving his job, and has no mobile phone or laptop of his own. With her living across the Channel it is easier for me to know they are not meeting than it would be for you. Yes, she could come to London, but he is rarely out of the house without me to be able to meet her. He is happy reading his books, sitting in the garden in nice weather, taking bike rides, cooking and doing DIY, and being home when our son comes home from school. He meets me in town a lot when I'm working or we go out for cheap lunches when I work at home. Knowing where he is and what he is doing has made our recovery possible. His having a job made it impossible.

"...what good under this situation will it really do to move? She could still find him and contact him. Or are you meaning that because we are HERE and he knows she is only 30 minutes away, that it makes it that much easier to give into temptation?"

It is easy to contact people when they have a job. Both my H and I were/are on the company websites, with our emails addresses and phone numbers available for the world to see. I hate this, but I don't get a choice in the matter, and it will be that way as long as I have a job.

However, if there is no "company website", how can one contact the other? Even if your home phone and home address are listed on the Electoral Roll or somewhere else, how can she actually get through your phone to talk to him? You can pay to get the record of all callers to your home, and usually all calls from the landline can be looked up online. If you don't know a number that came in or went out, he has to explain this.

If he has no mobile phone and if all PCs and laptops are monitored, how can they contact each other? If you are alert to the possibility of a prepaid phone then you know where one could be hidden. It's hard when he goes out to work to find a phone, but easy when he is at home to know where one could be hidden.

The bottom line is that if he is thousands of miles away (or like my H, across the Channel with at least a five-hour trip making drop-ins impossible) and if they can't see each other without your knowing that he is gone, and if they can't speak to each other while he's in your company and if he can't hide a phone to speak to her outside the house, what point is there is having any contact at all, for him? There is none. The affair will be over, but until you create those conditions it won't be.

Thanks Melody. I do understand what you are saying, but I guess since I am FINALLY so beyond belief realizing how viperous (and near hopeless) this situation really is, I have to ask what will be gained even by moving? We could move, and he could just let her know where we are, and BOOM now I'm someplace with no family or friends and in the very same position that I am right now.

I am NOT arguing with all of you, I truly am not. I am needing help to reason this through.

Have LTAs recovered by moving? Are there any example threads that I can read and ponder from here on the forums?

Oh my goodness yes, and worrying about this will kill you.

I have a pledge in my mind never to go to Brussels again. That is where he screwed her, about a million times. If we went back there (and it is a place where people from London go a lot: to change trains for Germany, for a day out sightseeing and eating - lots of reasons) his mind would be flooded with memories of meeting her there and doing what they did. He might enjoy the memories or he might be unhappy, but I would be dying. I will never put myself through that. You, B, shouldn't make yourself live where they lived. You'll have a breakdown.

This is very true, and you must be open to possibility that he will contact her someday because he misses her.

If that happens, you move nearer to your family (not back to the scene of the crime, though), without him. The marriage will be over.

BTW B, I'm not impressed that he isn't busting his gut to receive advice here today. He's letting you do all the work and agreeing to whatever you say, to appease you. I think you need to require more action from him before you attempt recovery.

You're getting him a job with your brother, or you're giving him a job in your company. What is he doing?

I also think you should write to Dr H, urgently, at the radio show.

Pretty much what H has done each D-Day also. The first two times, I promised him one day at a time. This time I am not speaking so quickly. I WANT to be with him. I do love him still...I guess I almost feel more sorry for him right now, but I DON'T trust him and now I realize that we won't just be a "broken vase" with a repaired crack IF we can recovery...I will NEVER be able to enjoy the same life AGAIN. Ever. I guess I am weighing out right now with this realization if I can truly commit to living like this.

Again, wow, SugarCane, what you have gone through. How is your son now?

See that is kind of what I was asking about with my "moving" question. We actually have a setup here (because of my business) where we could literally go days and weeks without needing to ever leave our driveway. We also have a large pole building with Hs car stuff that we could totally re-vamp in order to move the business out there (so that I could see his every move). He already has been okay with never going any place except to work without me, so I imagine that he would be okay with never going to the grocery or gas station without me, kwim?

I'm just pondering in my own head if it REALLY is the location that triggers him, or if it is the viper thing (the seeded weed that he'll never get rid of), in which case....even moving may not fix that...

TOTALLY get ya on the job. And H is like your H in that he is happy with simple things. For most of our RA, he chooses walks with the dogs, visits to a park, a trip to the beach. I'm wanting to start bike riding, but the weather has already turned here. I would never have imagined that he could be the type to be "chained" to me...but he has done it for six months now.

I now have spokeo and will check every number. But that is here nor there.

Sounds almost magical, and that is not my making fun one bit...is it really that simple? And if so, then I really COULD do that without moving...he couldn't go anywhere without me if he works for me (with me). Again please know I am not arguing with any of the advice about moving...I am just absolutely needing to be sure 1)that I want to risk staying with him and 2) that I am sure that we HAVE to move so that I know in my heart that if I risk throwing away everything in my life, that I can have a pretty decent chance of the A ending for good.

x 2

Hi BS2013,

When I posted to WH to puke out ALL affair details that you still didn't know, he said there wasn't any. Yet today I read that there was more. Please get the poly done ASAP...do not wait. Perhaps your brother will lend you the money. Honestly, I would have to see A LOT more effort/JC from WH to move away.

Hugs and prayers to you.

What would be gained is recovery. This affair has gone on so long that I think you are going to have to move if you expect to survive. There are thousands of couples here who have recovered by moving. I am one. Moving away gives you the best shot at recovery. See, every time he even passes her on the street, he will be triggered and the affair will likely be back on again. That can all be avoided if you move.

But you can do that in a place that is far from the OW. In a place that will be conducive to recovery.


Ask yourself which environment the alcoholic is most likely to recover in:

1. the same bar he got drunk in for 12 years

2. a park in another state

I think you know the answer.

You live too close to the OW to be safe, BS. If you are going to attempt recovery, you need to get out of that environment.

No, you can't do that without moving. Living in the environment in which the affair took place keeps her top of mind. How will ever prevent running into her? You can't. And yes, you have to decide if it is worth it to you. But I seriously doubt you will recover if you stay there. And even if you divorce, do you want to stay there and see him take up with the OW? Do you want to see them around town together?

See, if you move away with him, he is much less likely to resume the affair. But if he does, she will live back at your home town and he won't be there.

You are going to be spinning your wheels if you stay in that environment. You will be both be perpetually triggered by memories of the OW.

I am reading these posts, but also H and I are talking. I want to stick up just a little bit for him and say that he has only spent about an hour doing chores here in the house. Otherwise, he has been talking with me for the entire day aside from the 45 minutes or so that it took for him to hand write that note.

I will suggest that he become more involved here and post again on his thread, but right now we are trying to decide if he can even go to work tomorrow. I just don't see how I can be comfortable, even with my brother providing someone to follow him around. Which he won't have someone yet...so I just don't see how he can even go to work.

I am off now for us to get something to eat again. I will be back later and THANK YOU THANK YOU for all of your honest sharing and helping to me.

I'm hearing you all loud and clear. black raven, what you said was awesome, thank you! I hear him now and get it when he has WW thinking. It is holding me back quite nicely. I CAN see a difference in his eyes, and in his tone of voice now today after you all helped so much. But I saw that before, and then it took him exactly one week before he broke NC with her. DDay #1 was May 7, their first contact again was May 14th.

The stuff that I heard today was so gross that I can't imagine there being anything more that COULD hurt me. I can't even imagine caring about if there is more. Seriously. I won't make you all by telling you what they did. But he *never* stopped contact with her in 12-1/2 years. He had originally told me they broke it off in 2001, and then met again and had last sex in 2007. And that after that it was an EA. Nope, They had sex every week (at least) for all of these years, and had even had it on the day that I did surveillance for the last time and then confronted him.

The thing on the site here about the WS not giving the BS all of the info that the BS needs to make an honest decision? Well, he was just FINE with my not getting tested for STDs. I didn't get tested as I'd just been tested because of my cancer, and so saw no need to get tested again a month later since I was the ultimate in STOOOOOPID and believed his horrible stories about the affair. H DID keep trying to talk me into getting tested, but I didn't do it. Obviously, little did I know that he'd only told me the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, so you're meaning lots more JC from him before I entertain the thought of moving away? Don't worry about that because we couldn't even move for 2-4 months at least. My concern right now is what to do about his work....

...my brother is telling me to let him go to work for him, and have his noose and see if he tightens it or loosens it. Kind of similar to what some of you have been telling me today to let him do more work for US. I am listening.

Makes all sorts of sense. I never thought about his mind being flooded with memories and he might enjoy them, ugh.

I do want to clarify a bit though...we won't run into OW in our home town. It is two towns northwest of us. And we also won't run into her two towns northeast of us where H was working for my brother (and where I did a bunch of my scouting for my business also). We have set a boundary where neither of us are allowed to travel that includes about 10 miles in a radius around her home and one of her adult children's home.

The only possible way that we could see OW is if H breaks no contact, or if one of us happens to pass her on the freeway (the freeway that is about 30 miles from our house...but us and OW would have to use that freeway to go into or out of a big city near us).

BUT like you all have pointed out, just the sight of her can trigger him (or me, ugh), and so I am listening to all that you are saying.

BS, first off, just compensation would INVOLVE moving. That would be the necessary change of environment to accommodate recovery. You should move *IF* you decide to save your marriage. You shouldn't place your marriage in harms way to "see" if it works out because it is not going to work out unless you don't! That is like the alcoholic saying he may leave the bar *IF* recovery goes well enough. nonononnonononono, leaving the bar is an essential part of recovery.

And I do understand that you won't be able to up and move tomorrow. It takes time to make such arrangements.

And no, you should not give your husband enough rope to hang himself. That is not how this works. You should REMOVE the rope and affair proof your marriage. HOW can your husband go to work tomorrow and prove to you he is not in contact with the OW?

That is what you have to determine. No nooses, don't take the chance. We don't take chances here, we make the necessary lifestyle changes to avoid a repeat.

I totally appreciate your honesty Melody, and I do remember that you and LWFH and mrs cen, and others, have moved. I guess I'm just feeling after all of this that there is very little hope, so if anyone knows specifically of a really LTA though that has moved and then recovered, I would love to read that story.

Man alive, I needed to read that again!

Okay, so I just asked H what HE could do to make me feel safe and prove to me that he did not contact the OW...he said a polygraph at any random day, unannounced until the day of. He is saying that the threat of that alone should be enough that he wouldn't even mess with trying to break NC.

What do you think?

But, you don't need to read any stories. [you have our examples, btw] Dr. Harley advises moving if that is what it takes to NEVER see the OP again. You are in that very situation. In your case, living within 30 minutes pretty much guarantees that you or your H will eventually run into her. We have had affairs start up after the WS just drove past his OW on the road. In your case, it is even more imperative because a long term affair is even more entrenched than a shorter term affair.

That doesn't stop him, though. He is perfectly willing to take the chance of getting caught. He was willing to take the chance in the past. That has never stopped him in the past and it won't stop him in the future. He is an ADDICT and won't care about that.

BS, it is entirely up to you, but I would not wipe out your financial support and your health insurance unless you really must. Why not accept your brothers offer and in the meantime, start brainstorming to find another way to live.

What do you think?

SugarCane, believe me, this morning he wasn't agreeing to anything. He was as wayward as they come, and thanks to all of you yesterday, I finally saw just how bad that it is. I needed to see it, so you did me a favor.

As for requiring more action, I think that I need to ask all of you to watch me (and him on his thread) closely, and let me know when you see me rationalizing. Please?

What I *think* that I have done as far as requiring action today...he was laying on the couch half asleep talking with me and I USED to talk with him like that. This time I told him that I would not be talking about this until he could sit up and look me in the eyes and be totally involved in the conversation.

Another thing is that instead of going round and round with his wayward nonsense about last night's thread, I told him that I disagreed with him and if he thinks that you guys were so rude to him, that he needs to read it again and tell me exactly who was rude and how they were rude. We read each post out loud, and after two pages, he said wow, he couldn't believe that he had said that stuff.

Yes maybe he was just trying to appease me. Like Melody said he is cunning and sly. And an exceptional liar.

So what I did to get him to tell me the truth (AFTER you guys adjusted his thinking a bit, THANK YOU!!!), is that I said that I was not even going to entertain recovery until scheduling a poly. But that we don't have the money for it now, and so what I was going to do was put my entire website on a 50% off sale so that we could (literally) have thousands of $ by the end of the week.

A 50% off sale would have meant that I was literally making zero profit on some of my stuff, but that I would be turning cash to put it back in hand. It also would have meant hardly any remaining inventory for the Christmas Season.

Well....I had it all set up to click for 50% off and he said "No, Wait. We have to talk."

It came spewing out like 600 year old dirty diapers. I wrote two pages of questions down AS I asked them, plus I wrote his answers so that I can compare with the poly. Yes we will still get a poly, but honestly I don't need one for that stuff any more. HE doesn't have to know that, and now he has thought of having a poly every so often any way if he gets to keep his job.

Exactly, so how would that make me feel safe? I guess that I could feel safe right AFTER he passes each poly, but man that could get expensive.

The problem (for me) is that my brother won't hire that laborer until maybe this next week or the week after. And sometimes my brother moves slower than he promises. So for now it would just be my brother and one other guy watching my husband. And they won't BE at the job all of the time. Just in and out during the day at un-announced times.

There is a story near the top of the threads in recovery right now that will illustrate just how short the trip is from the desire to recover to divorce - it has to do with two things; a very long term affair, and not moving after the A was ended.

1. Are you still seeing a marriage counsellor? Stop, if so.

2. Write to Dr H at the radio show first thing on Monday. You don't have to be on the show if you don't want to, but you do need specific advice directed to your unusual situation of a 12-year affair.

Exactly, so how would that make me feel safe? I guess that I could feel safe right AFTER he passes each poly, but man that could get expensive.[//quote]

You won't feel safe because you will not BE safe. Giving him polygraphs will not prevent contact. You might find out afterwards but by then it will be too late.


How about exchanging phones with him tonight and asking your brother and the other man to keep their eyes peeled until they can hire the other guy?

Dr Harley is a genius at coming up with creative solutions! He can be a great help in finding solutions for you.

Melody, I am not willing to go through one more day of being unsafe. I just told him that either he quits tomorrow or we get a divorce.

He says that no one is telling us that we have to change things this second, but that we do it ASAP. He says that no one is telling us to put ourselves into financial ruin over this without trying to stack things at least in our favor. I told him that I asked for this to be planned out on D-Day 1, almost six months ago, and if it had been planned for, then D-Day #3 may not have happened.

I do not want to live one more day of my life like this. Tell me if I am wrong, please.

BS, you need to decide for your marriage what is necessary for you to feel safe! No one here can tell you what that might be. It is not my ox getting gored, after all! So, you do what is necessary to protect yourself.

Thanks HHH, I looked quickly and couldn't find it, but I will check them all out tomorrow. I appreciate it!

He is talking about MikeSmiling. They didn't move and had occasional run ins with the OM and his wife. They are now getting divorced. They were both very pro-recovery after the affair but cut that corner. It wrecked their marriage.

The rule is that if you can't guarantee no contact, that you need to move. Living within 30 minutes means you can't guarantee no contact. Affairs have started over something as insignificant as passing an OP on the highway.

It basicly meant that there were daily reminders of the affair, and also meant that any and all Love Bank deposits were immediately eroded into the negative.

It was impossible for MSS to get his LB to the a threshold where he even liked his wife, let alone felt romantic love.

Living in such close proximity to so many triggers sets a 100% rate for failure.

Thanks, I am going to read that thread right now. I had read a bit of it before, but can't remember much about it.

It is 3:15 am here and I just now was able to get up and come downstairs to ask for advice about this next thing:

I am afraid that H may be not doing very well with his guilt (he is sleeping right now so I'm okay down here for a few).

He seemed okay earlier. He agreed to not go into work tomorrow and he came up to bed and held me. I cried and thanked him so much for putting me and our marriage first, over the finances or our house. I fell asleep and when I woke up later, it was with him sitting up and sobbing on the side of the bed.

He just kept saying over and over how he can't go on with this pain, how he doesn't deserve to live, how he ruined everything, how people died in our wars that didn't deserve to die and yet God lets him live after what he has done.

I held him and said over and over how I loved him, and he would settle down for a minute, but then the same cycle would start again.

I thought of myself after D-Day and how I didn't want to live and how the pain kept coming in waves, and so I thought that if that is similar to what he is feeling, that I could tell him to ride out the waves while I held him. That seemed to work for a little while, but then he got upset because I was being nice to him, and he seemed more agitated with my trying to help.

He finally fell asleep. But he doesn't seem to be in too deep of a sleep, and he is already a sleepwalker, so I am afraid of missing if he gets out of bed during the night and comes downstairs.

GloveOil, mrs cen, anyone else? Has anyone gone through this and can you tell me how long it lasts? My husband has always been totally mentally stable, and this isn't "instability" necessarily...to me it seems like an overwhelm of emotion just like I felt after D-Day.

From the way he's been acting it seems like a very foggy wayward's way to keep an almost-out-the-door BS from going out the door.

Has he done this before today? Showed the slightest bit of guilt or regret in this extreme a manner?

Guilt is a great thing. It is our conscience's warning system that we are doing something wrong. I would tell him to EMBRACE THE GUILT. Being guilty about being bad is a good thing, not a bad thing.

The bigger concern here is the grief of his VICTIM. Soothing his "wounds" is a distraction from taking care of his bleeding victim.

The way he assuages his guilt is to give you just compensation. As long as his affair has gone on, I suspect his "grief" is centered around the loss of the OW.

Also, if he threatens suicide, I would call 911. He might want to go see his doctor about getting on anti-depressants. It will be no easy feat to withdraw from the addiction of a 12 year affair.

Agreed! This behavior is similar to what my H did. I remember thinking how bizarre it was that I was consoling HIM, after all he'd put ME through.

Turns out that we were NOT recovering...It's been very different this time around. Your WH is NOT the victim here, you are.

I believe your WH is still very foggy. I also agree that anti-depressants may be a good idea. He needs to stop feeling sorry for himself and work on comforting you and giving you just compensation.

Glad you saw this post, SM! I remember when your husband pulled that stunt!

A-HA! Okay, I thought it odd that it "set in" so quickly. My brother told me that a long time from now this may happen, but here naive me was literally thinking, WOW, those MB forum people are AWESOME that they set him straight this fast lol.

Thanks, and on with my day I go! StrongerMe, I am going to go and read your thread.

SugarCane, sorry, somehow I missed this post yesterday.

No, we stopped seeing our local counselor soon after we purchased the MB course.

We had been saving up for the coaching part of the program, but then I thought that it more important to pay for a poly. I don't need a poly right now (except in the near future to verify NC with OW from this point on). Honestly, with the carp that I heard yesterday, I can't imagine what else H could be holding back from me...and if there was more, then I don't see how he DIDN'T commit suicide many years ago.

We have literally NO savings left here, after using it to pay off what we could of the debts that accrued during the A (and we still have crippling debt to pay off). Now with H having to quit his job, we may be going totally under. In spite of that, should we purchase the coaching part of the program NOW so that we get a coach?

On the list today is for us to finish the letter to Dr. Harley that we began a bit ago. I am tempted to do it myself, but I am taking to heart what you all have said about making my H pull the load too. If he doesn't get a rough draft finished by the afternoon, then I will do it myself.

No, never. Not when we lost a child, not when his Dad died, not when he lost his fingers. Never in his whole life, let alone after D-Day.

He has come up to me and held me and told me how sorry he is, but never anything like this. Last night was after I had gone to sleep, and I woke up because he was sobbing hysterically. When I asked what was wrong, he was all-consumed with wracks of sobs so much that I couldn't understand him. He was totally drenched in tears and just kept saying that he didn't deserve to live because of all of the people that had died for us, what he had done to me, how he'd ruined everything, etc.

Blindsighted, I don't recall whether you have the latest version of Surviving an Affair. Chapter 7 covers the "First Steps on the Road to Marital Recovery." Dr. Harley discusses how very painful it is to the wayward spouse to separate forever from the source of the addiction. The more addicted, the longer and deeper the relationship, the more painful the withdrawal and the deeper the depression.

Dr. Harley states "during the first few weeks after total separation from the AP '(he uses the word lover, but I CAN'T') the depression that accompanies the loss can be so pervasive and overwhelming that nothing makes the wayward spouse happy."

He states that the feelings of withdrawal and grief are very similar. They are both emotional reactions that are associated with the loss of a very valuable part of one's life, something that provided great pleasure and satisfaction. But since the AP is always available, there is always the strong temptation to end the pain and contact the AP again. Every day there are many temptations to contact and they each have to be suffered and eliminated. That's why it's so necessary to remove every single way possible to contact the AP.

"After total separation from the AP, the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks and then fade almost entirely over the next six months. But if a slip occurs and contact is made with AP during withdrawal, the clock goes back to zero and the period of withdrawal starts all over again."

It is critical that you and your H eliminate every possible contact with the OW. Your H should see a doctor for anti-depressants that he should use for a few months until the depression begins to lift. Dr. Harley often recommends Wellbutrin, because it has no sexual side effects. (My H has used Wellbutrin the past with very good results and no unwanted side effects.)

During my H's withdrawal period, he was terribly sad and said to me that he had "lost a friend." Blech. It's really hard to be patient through withdrawal. After withdrawal, he experienced a period of self-loathing that lasted a while. He would go from being so happy in our newfound love and quickly move to self-loathing for bringing such devastation into our marriage. We both had our own roller coasters to deal with.

I wouldn't wait for your H to write the letter with you. I think it's imperative you get Dr. Harley's expert advice. Hopefully, he will agree to call in with you and he can speak with both of you.

I agree strongly with this. The letter I want you to write asks Dr H about what you, the BW should do, and what you should demand from your H. Would Dr H insist, as we do, that you move, or can you recover staying in that area? Does he recommend a post-nup? I've heard that he does not recommend them in WW/BH situations, and in fact he did not think one was necessary in my own WH/BW situation - but that was having spoken directly to my H and coming to the firm conclusion that my H did not want a life with OW and wanted a life with me and the kids. Does the 12-year affair, and your health insurance needs, make a difference in your case?

My exWH gave the "I deserve to die and am worse than X" speech. Was it an emotional breakdown, guilt, or manipulation? Idk but it worried me and ticked me off at the same time. I ended up punching him in the face by the end of the night and the next morning (after his mother arrived) took him for a psych eval.

A WS by the name of Greenmile ended up in the psych ward after a meltdown. I don't know whatever happened to him and his BW.

okay I emailed Joyce. Thanks to all, and especially SugarCane for making me such a super template.

Here is what I wrote:

Hello Dr. and Joyce Harley,

I am writing to you at the urging of the posters on the MB forums. I am BlindSighted2013. My husband is DumbMan. We have been married for 32 years and we have two adult daughters.

My husband had a 12-1/2 year affair that I just discovered in April and confronted on May 7, 2013. My husband immediately promised to go no contact, but I discovered on October 22nd that he had indeed still been speaking with OW by telephone from May 14th until Sept 14th. At that point, we started at square one again, and sent a NC letter and did a mass exposure. I found out on October 27th that my husband had borrowed someone's cell phone from work to leave a message on the OW's phone to warn her of the exposure.

The board has helped me through this this weekend, and my husband has promised (again) to have NC. Also, on Sunday morning, my husband revealed a BOAT LOAD of more trickle truth regarding the affair.

We at the board also debated if he should EVER return to work, and I made the decision last night that, with the info that I know, I do not feel safe having him return to work at this time.

The trouble is that due to his affair, our finances are beyond devastation. Our credit is now royally trashed. We own a home here and are not behind on payments, but we indeed may never be able to purchase a home somewhere else. He COULD quit all work and just work here with me, but at MUCH less pay than he has had before, and also it would cost us to pay for our own hospitalization in that case (I had ovarian cancer last year so we could not risk going without).

What should I do? What should I demand from my husband? Would you insist, as the board does, that we move? Or can we recover staying in this area (OW lives 30 minutes away).

My husband HAS said that he would sign a post-nup and sign everything over to me automatically and go to instant divorce in the event of EVER having any contact again. Even though our finances are poor, he does have a size-able retirement account.

The board has recommended that I ask this of you due to the extended length of my husband's affair.

I AM willing to walk away and lose everything that we have ever had in order to protect our marriage and recover. My husband has STATED that he is willing to do the same. Can you please advise us? (btw, we did purchase the online course from you but obviously we are not in recovery at the moment, so we have not worked on it since October 22nd)

"Or can we recover staying in this area (OW lives 30 minutes away)."

You need to say a bit more about this: the stuff about the exit from the freeway and how you sometimes need to pass it. He needs to get a full picture of this.

Tell them who OW is and how he met her. I can't remember: is she a client? Someone from a bar? Whore on a street corner? Dr H will need to know the means of contact in order to advise you about the job, and moving.

"The board has recommended that I ask this of you due to the extended length of my husband's affair."

This question is not crystal clear. Tell him you have heard that he does not recommend post-nups because of their effect on recovery, but you were told to enquire about the need for one in your case, because the affair was so long and entrenched, and because your H maintained contact after D Day. He is clearly badly addicted and the affair is deeply embedded into his life. If you make financial losses and move house away from all your support networks and he does this again, your personal losses will be great and you would appreciate some fiancial guarantees against these. Should you seek guarantees in the form of a post-nup?

Something like that.

I don't think you purchased the online course, otherwise you'd have access to Dr H's private forum and you would already have a coach. I think you purchsed the Home Study Course. Is that correct?

yes SugarCane, we purchased the Home Study Course and we do not have access to Dr. H's private forum and we do not have a coach.

Should I send a second email Sugar, so that he has all of the information?

I always feel like I type books on here and I was trying to be brief lol

Yes, she was a client from an old job. Haha to street corner, nah that would be too exposed for her.

I read too quickly and didn't realise you'd already sent it.

I think my points are important so I would send another if it were me, but he does have the key facts already in your email.

BS, I would also send them your phone # so they can call and speak to you. Dr Harley might have some questions. If you have already sent this information about the OW, just send another email.

It is totally fine to send another email - I have done this in the past.

Mine too. And said this very thing on his SAA thread.

While it would be great to believe he finally is getting it, the pain his actions have caused you, I would remain cautious and not read too much into the tears right now...

Just want to re-emphasize this...you will notice a big change when he's actually feeling empathy FOR YOU, rather than pity for himself. Promise yourself you will maintain high standards and hold him to the just compensation and protection that YOU need, not what is "comfortable" or easy for him. This is NOT punishment, but what you both need to recover your marriage.

I've got to agree. Unfortunately waywards tend to be drama queens who make a lot of noise and try to "fix" things with words instead of actions. Several of the men I've posted to on this forum have been particularly bad about it.

Most of the time, it's just a tale told by an idiot: full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Look to the actions required for recovery in Dr. Harley's plan and observe/measure whether they are being carried through with or not. If they are, eventually your love bank will cause you to feel safe. Attempts to force your love bank to feel that way before the FWS has actually done the work required will be ineffective and set you up for serious pain later on.

StrongerMe, great point about his actually feeling empathy FOR ME rather than self-pity. I have to say that I did see a bit of it today. Plus I did a little "test". Tell me what you think...

my brother called early this am to tell me that he DID already hire a laborer, straight out of his church, and someone who knows my husband and personally cares about both of us. My brother told this man that he may not WANT the job...because if my H has contact while on his watch, he will be fired instantly. The man still wanted the job and has even offered to DRIVE my H to work if I will drop him off at his house each morning!

So...I figured hmmm....if there is a reason that H was playing me last night, it is that he wants to go to work. So I told my brother that yes that is acceptable for this week only, and then I will see what Dr. H has to say.

Well....H was STILL acting compassionate towards me, helped me carry things for shipping (still tough on me after cancer surgery to lift too much weight), and said I'm sorry a million times today.

Something else that he did, and I could see that it almost killed him, is that he called his MOTHER right in front of me and told her exactly what more he has done as far as breaking NC, including that he warned the skank of the exposure. He also admitted that he had SEX with her for the entire 12-1/2 years, including on D-Day #1. <---this made him physically nauseous, I could see that

He also told his mother that *I* am trying to do everything that I can to save our M and that he "keeps lying to me". I could hear the chewing out that he got from her, and his response to that was "I have an addiction and I need help or I will lose my M".

OH NO SusieQ, I don't believe that my H is getting it yet. Far from it. There are some glimpses that I've never seen before. But after 1-1/2 days, those glimpses aren't trustworthy and they could be more fox-smarts. The self-pity is definitely still there.

YES it is all about MY protection now. Can I still talk about the A now, since we are not in recovery? I'm not back to talking "about" the A (egad, after what I heard on Sunday, I don't even want to think about it), but I am calling him on wayward thinking when he is telling me that he broke NC because he was just "being selfish" again. I'm tired of that card, and I want him to tell me exactly what was going through his mind.

I'm off now to do some work again, yay! Also, H has said that he will read GloveOil's story tonight and that he will post to his own DumbMan thread. We will see.

okay, here is the next email that I sent. And yes Melody, I did give them my phone number when I sent the original email today

2nd email to Joyce:

Following up to my first email because the forum people tell me that you may need more info.

They want me to let you know that as for us moving/not moving...the OW lives 30 minutes away and in a town that we never pass through. However, her home is about five minutes from an entrance to a freeway that we DO drive on (together) once per week to go downtown to service my in-law's rental properties (prior to D-Day, my husband drove this alone but part of EPs are that he never go without me again).

They also want me to explain that the OW was a customer of my husband's when he was in the plumbing and heating service business. He did change jobs and is now working for my brother and being watched all of the time by a laborer that my brother hired from his church. NO MORE service work. Ever. He is now working on new construction homes (IF you say that it is safe for him to go back to work). My husband's means of contact with OW is that he would make up stories about working late or stopping someplace on the way home. Then he would occasionally "go missing" and be out of phone contact for an hour or two after he was supposed to be home. He would stop at her house for their fun. She is a 65 year old divorced woman. We are 50 and 52 (him) if that matters.

A forum member wanted me to tell you that I have heard that you do not recommend post-nups because of their effect on recovery, but I was told to enquire about the need for one in our case, because the affair was so long and entrenched, and because my H maintained contact after D Day. He is clearly badly addicted and the affair is deeply embedded into his life. If I make financial losses and move, away from all of my support networks, and then he does this again, my personal losses will be great (greater than they already are now), and I would appreciate some financial guarantees against these. Should I seek guarantees in the form of a post-nup?

And they want me to clarify that we purchased the Home Study Course, and not the online course. So we do not yet have access to a coach.

Thank you so much!

You know, he is being honest when he says he was being "selfish." That is exactly what he was doing. I get my panties in a knot when he tries to say he is "dumb" or "stupid" or "made a mistake." That makes me crazy because we all know he is about as dumb as a wily fox! After all, he hid an affair for 12 years!!

And how did he manage to sneak off for 12 years and have sex with skanky? How did he cover up that time? And what kind of woman does that? Do you have any sense of why a woman just put out for free for 12 years with nothing in return? I ask out of curiosty because it is unusual for a woman to allow herself to be treated like an unpaid wh*re for years on end. Typically they want to take the relationship to #1 concubine.

Does he think that being addicted is an excuse? Yes, he is addicted, but oddly some people believe that is an excuse. I like that he is saying he is addicted in the sense that it helps you understand how important it is to move away. He is very addicted to her and it will take ALOT to crack that addiction.

By the way, I attribute his breakdown last night to the loss of his addiction. Losing access to an addiction is like losing half of yourself. It is a horrible feeling.

Hi markos, by mentioning Dr. Harley's plan, are you meaning the first step NC? Or are you meaning the Basic Concepts? I guess it's like slicing hairs here lol, but I am starting to feel confused about what I should be focusing on.

Here is what I think, and you all please correct me if I'm off base:

As for actions from HIM...I am watching every move, every gesture, every teary eye, every crinkle of his cheek (I've just started noticing that it crinkles when he is going to cry), every word that comes out of his mouth, every silence...So the ACTIONS that I need is consistency. Consistent extraordinary care, consistent honesty, consistent SELF-honesty, consistent willingness to protect, consistent putting me first before all others including our dogs. I'm not kidding here. I am d-o-n-e unless those are all there. And I figure that will take a loooong while to change 13 years of behavior.

I'm not quite sure where I will go from here if he does start showing this stuff for a little bit. I guess I will take my cue from all of you who have gone before me.

I think that we are not in recovery, I had planned to do a gentle plan A, but I am not...for now until I hear from Dr H I am being pleasant, I am treating him kindly and I am not LB'ing one bit. I am talking about his wayward ways to him. When he brings anything up that is focused on himself, I am practicing re-directing it so that I don't really even "hear" it. Instead I am responding with as best-as-I-can do right now kind 2x4s to let him know that I'm not buying it.

For instance, today he tried talking about how we were really improving when we were doing MB. So I responded with, "I'm not even getting what you mean, how were we improving at all when you were carrying on your A?".

Trying to start to take care of myself again (better than I did this past weekend I mean).

Other than that, right now I am trying my best to NOT think about the A, because the new info that I got is extremely painful and I do not want to go back to where I was on D-Day #1 (mind tapes every three minutes, constant shakes, waves of grief that were so painful that I wanted to die).

The actions you need to see are extraordinary precautions. That means he proves he is not having an affair anymore. You should be in Plan Recovery, which means he does gives you just compensation and does his best to meet your needs.


I think he says this because it was better FOR HIM. He doesn't really understand yet how terrible it has been for you.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends. [/quote]

I hate that "selfish" excuse though, Melody. He keeps saying over and over how he loves me, loved me, never wanted to leave me, and then my continual question is "then why did you do it?". And he says because he was a selfish [censored]. That's what he has said since d-day 1. I am sick of that answer. I want to hear just WHAT he thought of me that allowed him to purposely stab me in the back over and over!

I had CANCER debulking surgery 1 year and 2 months ago. They pulled my organs out to do biopsies. My intestines had not yet healed! And every SINGLE time I have had to deal with this again, my intestines flair up and I start bleeding again! He KNOWS that I can barely walk for three days afterwards, each time! Selfish [censored] doesn't CUT IT!

Yeah, dumb...he tried to tell me today that this is such hard work to do soul searching, and my answer was..."the only hard work you had after D-Day was figuring out how to get around a GPS tracker, my monitoring your phone and texts and emails". I dunno, I don't want to sound bitter, but it's the truth! And he did respond with how he meant hard work in the last 1-1/2 days. Barf. You call that hard work? I've done it for SIX MONTHS!

well I do have to say that he isn't great at any written (typed) words, and it does take him a long time to type, he didn't have a clue how to quote before I showed him, he is just starting to learn how to find his posts lol, and he definitely did not even know how to use a mouse before he signed onto the forums, and he is still going at it in spite of all of that. So I guess I'm starting to give him a couple of points for that (but don't tell him).

He was quite able to sneak off easily because of both of our jobs. We both were independent Melody, we really were. We both took our M for granted. We both talked to OS people about our personal issues. We both were walking LoveBusters. He just had the unfortunate luck to be snagged by the real deal skank. I mean a low-life like you wouldn't imagine. If I showed her photos here versus mine, you would all 10x4 him instead of 2x4. BUT she told him that everything that he did smelled like roses, and she talked to him and "supported" him. She wasn't the whore, HE WAS!!!! Well...she was a whore too, obviously...but what she did was give him sex and then he fixed up her whole house, her children's houses, her car, her children's cars, etc. My daughter calls her a cougar. I'd never heard that word before.

How did he cover up the time? By only being 1-2 hours later than what we promised to be home. There was always a good reason because of our jobs.

Well, that's probably coming from me...I've used it constantly this weekend because I want him to understand that even IF he really intended and intends to have NC, that it is BIGGER THAN HE IS. He has an addiction. I got that from you guys.

Yep, not all of it though, I will say that some of it was different Melody, BUT no worry, I took what you guys said this morning, and I told him the same thing...I said no, it is impossible for you to be remorseful after 1 days of being caught. You are in withdrawal from her and you are not having radical honesty since you are not telling me your feelings. I asked him about withdrawal after D-Day 1. I even posted in my thread how I didn't get it that he was showing no symptoms. DUH!

Melody, I won't know if he is having an affair anymore until way down the line. I am not going to trust that, and I know that you're not telling me to trust it. So HOW can we be in plan recovery? Okay just compensation...man when he called his MOTHER on his own today, that hit a home run...his mom is soooo overbearing and he just had to know that he was going to get a 2x4 from her. And he told her that they had SEX. That's huge to me because his mom thinks that the moon and sun circle around him. I loved hearing the chewing out in the background, haha. Other JC...he arranged today for starting an annuity fund for me locally in case he does this again (he has not followed through and finalized it yet, but we did go to the bank together). I dunno about more JC...he did write out those letters to the family. He was willing to quit his job until my brother called today and I told my brother that it was okay...but he didn't KNOW this until the end of the day.

No Melody, he doesn't really understand yet how terrible it has been for me. He doesn't have more than the tiniest of clues. Although today he did magically notice that I cannot lift boxes. Big whip, it will take more than that.

Oh no. You would have to know NOW. If you won't know "way down the line" then your marriage is not affair proofed. That is the whole purpose of integrating your lifestyles. He will no longer have the ability to cheat because your lives will be so transparent that conducting a secret second life will be impossible.

EP's means he CAN'T cheat because he could never get away with it. For example, if he is in the same room with you he can't cheat.


Just compensation would be the actions described in this article:

here

Melody, I am getting so confused. We DID these EPs and he still found a way. And you're right...the only way that I can KNOW for a fact that he is not cheating, is if he is in the same room with me 24/7.

Honestly, he can quit his job, we can move, and we can go to a restaurant together in another state. AND he can walk into the men's bathroom and text her on an affair phone that he has in his sock.

HOW am I going to know that he is not having contact with the skank?

The goal is to create EP's where it is impossible to have an affair. THAT is where you need to focus. If a spouse has an affair, then your EP's are NOT tight enough.


Not if you are in possession of the affair phone and with him in the bathroom. If you think he will do that, then you need to be with him.

How would he BUY an affair phone if you have access to his bank account and his check goes into your joint account?

See? EP's means you block ALL holes in the wall.

In other words, it is the WRONG approach to say "oh, he is just going to do it anyway." The right approach is to find a way that he CAN'T do it. Structure your lives in a way that it will be impossible to carry on the necessary secret second life. If he "can just do it anyway" then that means there is something lacking in your EPs.

Okay, I was kind of put off (as in wondered what you meant) to read this, but then I realized that you are totally RIGHT. (of course lol)

I haven't watched his CASH flow. He gets cash from all over the place, and it doesn't go into our account so I've had no way of knowing.

DUH I needed that Melody. Thank you.

Okay, the big cash leak could be the apartments that he takes care of. I go with him every Friday (now) to collect the rents, so I need to ask to see the stash. Also there is turning in scrap, selling tools that we don't need, etc. I am going to have to tell my brother to tell the laborer to question all tool sales.

This is one reason why I wanted you to speak to Dr Harley. You need some creative suggestions about restructuring your lives so you don't have all these holes.



Complete and total transparency and accountability will be necessary.

My stbx did most of his work by cash only. You will have to do some serious recon looking for cash here and there as it sounds like he is likely to have many stash piles that have probably financed his affair. Not just obvious places such as wallets or a home safe. Check filing cabinets (not just in various sleeves but underneath), duct work, chimney ledges, attic crawl spaces (under the fiberglass), breaker box, tool boxes, taped on underneath sides of drawers.....you get the idea.

Got it, and I appreciate your bringing it up. I realllly did not consider the apartments, because it never crossed my mind if H would take $ from his Mom's rents, kwim? We just go there and collect the rents for her after H's dad passed, mostly because we don't want her in the inner city with cash on her body. btw, THAT is the only reason that we have to drive on the freeway each week like I explained to Dr. Harley in the letter that I wrote today.

Not sure, but I will definitely check. Most of his debt came from my not knowing that he was using our c-cards and I would send in whatever was on auto-withdraw each month (life, house, car insurance), it was not huge amounts, but I never knew that the balances were rising and over the years it became staggering. I don't think that he actually used "our" money (past the c. cards) to finance his A, but I did know that he got $ from the apartments over the years for his time, and he never turned that in to the family coffers, kwim?

BS2013, another thing you should do is pull a credit report on him tonight and go over everything with a fine tooth comb. Get your hands on every credit card he has. Every line of credit he has will be on the credit report.

Can your mother hire someone else to collect the money? Think about how you can eliminate that piece from your lives.

You can also set up his credit report to send you a notification if any new activity. I would be checking his CR once a month. [and yours too!]

And if you are sitting there thinking "OMG, I HAVE BECOME THE POLICE!!" Put that out of your mind. All of these steps are the necessary steps towards creating an integrated, intimate lifestyle. Dr Harley and Mrs Harley, for example have a completely integrated lifestyle and they know exactly how much the other spends every day. They are usually together every day, for most of the day. They have full access to every aspect of the other's life. They are not miserable, they are very CLOSE.

That is exactly how my H and I feel. We feel very CLOSE and integrated in our marriage. You will feel this way too, BS.

I guess that I do feel that way sometimes, but no not in a bad way. Mostly in a way that if you had known my H before he met OW, he was not like this. So it makes me sad is all. He is tolerating it well.

He is also tolerating and happy to get to go to work tomorrow with a babysitter. I heard him tell my brother tonight "thank you and I won't let you down". We'll see.

My Dad wants me to leave him after the trickle truth that came out on Sunday, so maybe I am sounding more distant because I am mentally dealing with that. My Dad is the one person in my whole life that loved me no matter what. He has a pretty big influence.

Yes I have already pulled credit reports after the first CC company sued him, and I have all of the cards and the numbers and the passwords. He really did not do anything other than low-lying (lying, get it?) $20 charges here and there. It just all added up big time when I didn't know it and was only sending in the life insurance amounts (or whatever was coming out of that account). Couple that with interest and it became bigger than us.

It means soooooo much to me to read that you think that I will feel this way too (integrated and very CLOSE again).

It's my mother in law (H's Mom) and I know it matters not for your point, but my MIL is not my most favorite person lol. YES she can hire someone else and will have to if I say so. I guess I don't quite want to say so...because she WON'T hire someone else...she is rich after FIL's passing and so tight with her money that she WILL go down there herself to save a buck. But yes, I guess that I should point that out when Dr. H calls...we do not HAVE to drive by that freeway entrance/exit.

Thus far, H and I have made date nights out of it. We go there, collect the rents for 15-30 minutes, and then we have FUN. We go to the casino with their $10 free money play each week lol (and once we won big with their money, so we got to have a nice dinner on them), we go to the beach, we go and walk the shop-fronts, we just have fun in the city (we are very rural here). So it hasn't been a biggie to me, except for the risk that OW may just happen to be getting on or off that freeway ramp at the same time as us. H says that she never goes that way, but can I believe him?

"Except for" that little risk?

You do realize that Dr Harley has already addressed this issue exhaustively, right? He has written and spoken EXHAUSTIVELY about moving to be away from the OP in order to avoid this kind of thing. The reason is because every time you and your husband run into the OW, your marriage goes back to Day 1 of recovery. And the affair will most likely resume.

You don't have to ask him AGAIN about that part. Have you read his exhaustive writings about moving away? Have you listened to his numerous radio shows about this?

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

I've got it Melody, I just do not like it. And I just do not know if I want to live like this. I totally got the reality on Friday when he was loyal to OW and warned her. I also totally got that I can choose to leave right now. I don't want to leave right now, but I also don't want to live like this. And I WILL HAVE TO. I totally get it, and I am trying to come to grips with it. Reality has set in.

I can't have AOs. I can't talk about the A to him. I can't release my anger. I can't have any anger. My life has been friggin' annihilated and I GET IT! I just did sooooo not deserve this and I am having a pity party. I think that I have to have my own pity party, away from H, except that NOW I cannot BE away from H. I know that you get it. I know that everyone reading this gets it. I am just venting.

You've known me long enough on here to know that I will straighten up.

Honesty...it is really tough for me to see JUST how wayward and enmeshed he is, and how he thinks so simply about the total tsunami that he caused. It's just as much MY fault because I did not see it for 12 friggin' years. WHO doesn't see it for 12 years? Me. The smart one. The class valedictorian in HS and college. I did not see this right under my nose.

AND now...it's doubly hard to see that he IS trying and he still doesn't get it. WHY doesn't he get it? Because I did not train him how to treat me for the last 12 years. I totally thought that he was incapable...not sure if I have shared that here before...but I went to my corner because I just chose to accept who he was and when the going got tough, he didn't do it...so I had to. Lost a child, lost his fingers, child with lupus, whine, whine, whine...HA! He showed ME now that he is QUITE capable of pulling off the biggest scam ever. I am IMPRESSED! Anyone who knows me in real life would be impressed with how anyone could pull one this big over on me.

And I exposed far and wide, so I am presently the biggest talk of the town. While he warned her.

The TRUTH of the matter is that he is a good, good man. He is entrapped in a horrible nightmare, and I want to walk away and leave him to his dreams. The trouble is that I DON'T REALLY want to walk away, I want to help. But I don't know HOW any more!!!

Please don't beat yourself up. Your WH's A is NOT your fault...and NEVER will be.

Sorry you are struggling. Prayers and hugs to you, BS2013.

Thank you SO much black_raven, I needed that. I will be better tomorrow. I am just soooooooo tired.

Love ya all!

Well, I mean everything, the totality of everything Dr. Harley describes that would apply to your situation. That would include NC, and the Basic Concepts, and probably more as well. Be sure and read Surviving an Affair (and listen to the radio show!)

What you should be focusing on is whether or not HE is focusing on the plan. Yes, NC is the starting point for that. You should be looking to see if he is carrying out extraordinary precautions. But of course, don't stop there.

Good Morning All! I am in a better frame today and so very grateful for this post markos. It probably sounds silly, but even after my living and breathing MB for nearly six months, I am having trouble knowing where to "start" over at this point.

I feel a bit like a deer in the headlights, and I don't know which way to focus on first to save myself (first order) and then continue with the effort to save my M (second order at this point).

I'm very much a to-do list, action, type of person, and I need that priority list lol.

markos, I needed (again) to read that NC is first. Actually that covers saving myself AND saving my M, doesn't it.

So...what I will do today is:

*take care of myself (water, exercise, breaks from work). I'm going out to lunch with my H's aunt (my favorite).

*verify all phone numbers in and out on H's phone for last two days

*WORK!

******

H is working with my brother today. He has already texted me twice. Once to ask how I am feeling, and once to say I love you...to which I replied "glad that you are thinking of me I need to see actions to know that you love me". Was that okay to say that? Or was that an unkind remark to his good intentions? Honest, please.

H had another meltdown last night, just like the night before...he was hugging me after we got ready for bed and one second telling me that he loves me and the next second it started...huge sobs, wracking shoulders, sorry, sorry, sorry, I'm so sorry, I can't believe I let you and my whole family down and ruined our lives. I'm scared, I don't want to lose you. I answered like Melody said and told him to embrace his emotions. But then he started with I can't live with this pain, I just want to die, and I yelled STOP IT or I will call 911. He did stop it. <---was it okay that I yelled STOP IT or is that an AO?

Okay, I am off now to get to work! Have a great day everyone!

BS2013,

I have been reading along, but haven't been posting. You are getting such good advice already. I do want to share a little of my experience.

There are many similarities between your situation and mine. My H's affair didn't last as long as your H's. However, my H did take a long time in withdrawal, exacerbated by contact after 16 months of no contact, continued lying, as well as my response to his lying - expertly leveled DJs. It was a vicious cycle of his lying and me being upset and angry.

After discovering the false recovery (email and phone contact with OW), I insisted on several things in order for me to stay in the marriage. One was that H talk to his doctor about anti-depressants. He ended up being on them for about a year. We also shored up holes in the EPs. H was able to contact OW via his mother's phone/computer, with her knowledge. We have not seen his mother since that time.


We had already moved six states and 1000 miles away from OW. It had been in our plans even before discovery. So, we were lucky in that. I can tell you though that the first time we drove through the state of GA (nowhere even near Atlanta), I shook like a leaf. Every time you pass that exit on the freeway, it will be a potential reminder.

The best solutions always are to follow Dr. Harley's advice. He has had SO much experience that he knows where the pitfalls are and knows that short-cuts inhibit recovery. One of my requirements was that we attend an MB weekend (what is now the on-line program, with access to a coach and private forum). Previously, we had been working the at-home program. But, H was not totally committed to either the program or the marriage. With the entire program, I could turn to the coach to handle those sticky things that H would have turned around and "gaslighted" me about.

I guess my bottom-line comment here is that I hope you get your husband to consider anti-depressants, sign up for the complete program, and move.

Hugs to you, BS2013. You are a remarkable woman!

AM

Good Morning all! Sorry to be MIA last evening, but Joyce Harley called me yesterday and we may be on the radio show on Friday (Joyce has a slight possibility that she would have to cancel, in which case we will re-schedule).

She needed my H to write an email for them. I helped him with that last evening, but he did not send it yet because I told him that more info should be included...last evening when we sat down together, H looked at his thread and markos has submitted some bible passages for him. H broke down reading them (good!) and then we talked for a long while.

After reading those passages, H called his brother in Michigan and told him all about the A and what he has done to me.

Then I asked about H's withdrawal and pointed out that by hiding it, he is not being radically honest. H admitted to me that yes he is missing OW very much and he doesn't think that it is fair to tell me that and hurt me more. I told him that if he doesn't tell me that, then he is acting odd to me and I am keeping my distance, and so what good will that do? Plus then, what does he think will happen when he can't take the pain of withdrawal? I asked what exactly he was missing...and he explained that he is missing the easy and relaxed relationship <--the fantasy

He shared with me that he would go there and a beer was ready when he walked in, she learned all about his interests and had pre-recorded shows that they watched together, on the couch with no interruptions from children or phones, etc. He said that they would just sit and hold each other while they watched tv and then sometimes sex would happen and sometimes not, but either way he felt safe and cared for, and supported and admired.

Okay so that is a fantasy, I get it, but I DO HAVE TO TELL YOU ALL that I felt as if H was finally "letting" me into his secret second life. It felt "good" to hear it, and it felt horrible to hear it. AND it makes me realize truly that we could have made this same environment together except that HE DID NOT participate in the M to try to work on changes together. I didn't want to LB him by saying that to him, and I'm not sure what to "do" with this feeling.

We also made more EPs:
1) we are no longer going on the freeway near OW's house. AT ALL. EVER. Instead we will go 1/2 hour out of our way on rural roads to get to the big city via the west side instead of the east side.
2) if Dr. H recommends it, we will immediately use our $ and pay for the coaching portion and skip our bills this week
3) no more cash. Ever. H will now use our debit cards even if he stops at McDonald's for coffee.

Hi armymama, thank you for sharing. I have read your original thread and so sorry for what you went through also. I have not looked to see if you've made any more threads (but I will!) and yet I wanted to ask you how your relationship is now? The thing that I am seeing with my H is that yes it has been lying all along, but I don't think that it is ONLY because of his secret second life. I am starting to think that he may have learned to gaslight as a child when dealing with his own Mom. That is neither here nor there...except for the fact that if we are to stay M and learn RH, then we've got a tough hill to climb.

Soooo sorry to read that your own MIL enabled your H to carry on the A. Good for your H (and you!) that you no longer have contact with her.

This is fast becoming such a dream for me! I WANT for us to move. We have a huge messed up financial situation here right now, but IF we truly will work together and un-bury ourselves, then I feel certain that we can pull it off. Maybe not for a long while, but if H will become all-in and realize that he must protect me from himself, then that will be a BIG step in my being willing to work hard right along with him to clean up his mess.

Yes, I agree about the coaching. I wonder just how H will handle typing things out, he will probably frustrate our coach to no end. I showed him how to use the voice control on our cell phones and then copy that to his email and then copy THAT to the MB, but man alive it takes him 1/2 hour to get out a single paragraph lol. There has to be a better way, but we will cross that bridge when we get to it I guess.

THANK YOU armymama! Thank you for caring enough to read my posts and share your story. And thank you for the compliment!

Your H should strongly consider getting a prescription for ADs. The medicine will help him get through the withdrawal period. We know you know this, but to be separated from the object of one's addiction is painful and very difficult.

One thing Dr. Harley will often ask is what did the OP offer that might not have been happening at home. If it was a relaxed atmosphere without interruptions all curled up with each other, well, that's something you could do. Ignore the telephone during your cuddle time and simply enjoy the pleasure of being close together.

As your H begins to meet your ENs more, you will begin to admire him more.

As to money, you had said in your email that although your finances are decimated, your H has a healthy 401k. Is that correct? You could use those funds to pay off debt and start a new life. Lots of people look at their 401ks as though they are sacrosanct, but once you pay the 10% fee for taking it out early and have the taxes withheld, the money could be utilized.

If you live where you could rent out your house, you could get out pretty quickly. For a rental situation, you would have to make it decent and all should be in good repair, but it doesn't have to perfect, as it would be if you were to have to sell it. You could find a good property manager who will check credit and get references for a monthly fee.

Two people can live pretty inexpensively. You don't have to purchase another home right away; you could rent a small cozy place for a couple of years, even a small apartment. We had to move to a remote place where we were allowed only the bare minimum of our things. All the rest had to be put into storage. We brought no pictures for the walls, no china, just six place settings of our basic kitchen set, pots and pans and linens. The apartment we lived in was furnished. Life was wonderful even with very little. We had so much more time to play and talk instead of dusting around stuff.

I've lived the opposite of your life, Blindsighted. Instead of living in one place for the last 32 years, I've moved to about a dozen different places. I didn't want to move either, but moving to a new place far from the triggers is liberating. You and your H will have the opportunity to build a whole new marriage where you could be in love with each other.

I'm so happy you are going to get to talk with the Harleys. My H and I admire them both a great deal. They are so friendly and helpful.

My H and I have a great, loving marriage now. I love him, but I think he loves me even more. He is hugely remorseful about the affair and his actions surrounding the affair. He is an honest man now, tells me the things he would like for our present and future. We nearly always follow POJA. When we slip - usually because one of us sacrifices too much for the other, we correct our course.

AM

Totally agree with you. He quit smoking two weeks ago and that was a 30 yr FOUR PACK per day habit. So he is also going through that withdrawal, although he says it is now only minor cravings.

I'm so happy that you put this last sentence in there LWFH. I don't know how to be open to risking him meeting my ENs right now. We did cuddle last night and he was very attentive and caring, but my mind seems to go "blah, blah, blah" lol. I know that I have to be open to LB$, but I think that I will feel safer about that after we speak with Dr H.

Thanks. We do not *think* that this would work since his retirement is through his union, but we were going to go to the hall together and ask on Friday. Now if we do the radio show, that will have to wait, but we WILL seek the info ASAP. We may still be able to borrow a (small) amount from our annuity through the union, but we will have to weigh our options.

All great points. It's obvious that you are well versed at doing POJA....LWFH, you are fantastic at thinking outside of the box.

Yep, you've hit it on the nose, LWFH. We have lived in this house since our oldest was nine months old. That is why I do feel like H bombed our entire life...it's not just our M, it was my entire stability here, business and all (although I can move the biz anywhere). I AM truly hopeful about moving, though! And I adored your idea about renting this place. Those thoughts are future dreams though...most important now is speaking with Dr H and having totally firm EPs, and my SEEING that H is truly all-in...my rose colored glasses are broken (hopefully for good) and now I do recognize that I need to set the bar WAY higher than I even thought that I had set it.

WONDERFUL to read this, armymama! Especially the part about how he loves you even more.

And how very cool that you can recognize the slips in POJA due to sacrificing. What a fantastic spot to be in.

okay all, we were on the show today, and also Joyce called me back afterwards and we covered a couple more topics.

Joyce does not feel that we need to purchase the coaching right now as we did do the work on our own, and she said that they are willing to help us again if we get into more jams.

Also, Joyce and I spoke further about my husband's withdrawal and acknowledged that we do need to share that together.

We are off now probably for the rest of the day. Thank you for all of your help.

1. Long Term Affairs are a bit of a different animal. The WS reallllly may indeed want to end it and have NC, but it is way bigger than them. My H lasted exactly one week in NC. Like LWFH pointed out to me, the WS is thinking with their emotions, and emotions are not too trust-worthy. Take heed of this!

2. Because of it being a LTA, the BS cannot "rest" on the EP's that are number 1-8 in Dr. Harley's SAA book. I *think* that what happened to me is that after the first initial re-contact with OW, it took about one second before my WS thought COOL!!! YES I am going to get a wonderful marriage that fulfills all of my ENs and I'll just lay low and agree to everything so that I can safely keep on with my SSL (secret second life) and none will be the wiser. Then I can keep on cake-eating for life. Because of the EP's in place, I did catch him...by WHY go through that?

3. I exposed after D-Day #1, but I had not found MB, and so I only exposed to select people whom I decided would positively influence our M. Then I found MB and I didn't know any better when people asked me if I had exposed. If I had exposed CORRECTLY, I wouldn't have had to go through six months of heart-ache. DO NOT randomly decide who will help your M and who won't. NOPE! EXPOSE on CNN if you can find a way to do it! WITH pictures! Read the link in MelodyLane's thread, and do it as big as you possibly can.

4. I finally did a nuclear exposure (still wrought with some problems, but man did it go far and wide). After exposure, the WS will endure a shock very similar to what we did as BS on D-Day. We just wanted the pain to end. So does the WS want (their) pain to end. They will show emotion like you've never seen from them before (and I had 32 years to witness emotion from my H...emotion after exposure was MORE than at the death of our child, MORE than at the death of his beloved father). Be kind, but IGNORE IT ALL. It is withdrawal setting in!

5. After exposure and after withdrawal sets in...you are STILL in limbo. The FOG is NOT gone, and so you can't really be back to interdependent behavior because your spouse is still talking out of their butt. It is going to take TIME for the fog to lift.

6. THE single most important thing to concentrate on during the time after exposure and while the fog is lifting is NO CONTACT. Every day, you need to snoop as if your life depends on it (your future does depend on it). YOUR feelings don't really matter right now to your WS, sorry but they still DO NOT MATTER...the important goal is NO CONTACT. It's totally (warped I know) helpful to offer for your WS to tell you when he is thinking of her, and shock of shocks, he WILL! I know, but it really does let you know where you stand as far as O&H and also the status of the clearing FOG.

More of an update tomorrow...H and I had decided to spend about 1/2 hour posting to the board tonight, and then one thing after the other took our half hour lol.

He had troubles transferring it from his voice command on his phone, yada, yada, and then I got a call that I had to take. I had started an update message and then it flew to oblivion somehow when I took my call.

Anyway, wanted everyone to know that I (and we) are hanging in there, working really hard on things, and I will be back in touch tomorrow.

okay, we are now 7 months since DDay #1, almost two months since he stopped phone contact with her, and two weeks since he heard her voice on an answering machine.

He has been saying all along that he wants to end it and have NC for life and build a new M with me.

I did the best that I could with this ugly thing, but I truly did not *get* it until about two weeks ago. I did not realize what LWFH meant when she said "entrenched". Perhaps I was too exhausted to see straight, perhaps I wanted to believe that it wasn't as bad as it was. Not sure. But it was and is BAD.

Not sure about other LTAs, but when Melody and others pointed out how "wily" my husband was, I still didn't get it. Even though I had been kicked in the teeth for 12 years, I truly did not understand that he was capable of continuing on like this ON PURPOSE. He was SO wily that he literally geared everything since D-Day #1 until September (4 months!) towards re-framing and getting back to his second life ASAP. Again right under my nose even though we did all EP's.

To be "fair", he did end phone contact on his own the middle of September (however, he did not tell me, and so that means that he was keeping his "options open"). Thanks to the EP's, I discovered his contact.

True exposure changed everything though. I don't know yet if it will stay changed, I don't even know yet if he is re-grouping so that he can find yet another way to carry on the excitement. I am watching every second and even following him to the bathroom now.

Dr. Harley, Joyce, and my brother all feel that he does care very deeply and wants to beat this thing. It was wonderful for both of us to speak with Dr. and Joyce Harley.

My brother is also helping us both in so many ways. First thing that he did was start getting back to the Bible with both of us. I totally needed that. By my getting back to reading the Bible, I realized that God will take care of me no matter what. My first loyalty is to God, and my second is to my M. This re-acceptance helped me to stay calm in spite of H's rants about withdrawal and talking in his sleep about HER (which he had never done in 12 yrs previously btw).

On November 3rd night, it was particularly bad, I sat up on the edge of the bed and I prayed to God and asked him WHY he did not just let me die on the operating table during my cancer surgery last year? WHY did I ever have to know this vile thing? WHY doesn't He just take me away right now and take this pain from me?

The next morning, my brother asked me where I had heard that before? I naively answered him that I'd said a similar thing when we lost our baby. Then my brother got quiet...and I realized that Jesus said the same thing on the cross. So that was my pivot point. After that, I have prayed for the patience and the endurance to do the best that I can to set the best example in Jesus's likeness one day at a time.

H is starting to tell me the honest truth now. It is the same general gist that he has told me before, but this time it is believable. For instance, he told me before that she never asked about me any more because he had made it plain that I was an off-topic subject...now he has told me that she had no reason to ask about me since he had told her that he was in a loveless M and hadn't had sex with me in 12 years lol. Sick if she actually believed that, and it's not funny, but that is why now he is beginning to see (and say) that he ruined two family's lives. He was SO WILY that I bet that he shoveled very many more lies to play her also, and more will come out as time goes on.

Here is the thing about the lies...they are LAYERS. I am suspecting that while in the fog, the layers are in a compartment, and he got SO GOOD at keeping all compartments separate, that he doesn't even see (yet) how many little boxes are in his brain.

It's easy to say that he needs to tell me the WHOLE TRUTH right now. But I see him shut down. I see it with my own eyes. It almost looks like he is having a stroke right in front of me. I see the disgust as realizations come into his eyes. And right now it isn't only disgust at what he has done to me (barf). I WANT to scream and yank it all out of him now so that my sores can start to heal...but honestly, I don't think that he has yet even faced all that he has done. And THE MOST IMPORTANT THING right now is NO CONTACT, correct?

It has only been two weeks since he heard her voice on the ans. machine, and from what I've read in Dr. Harley's newsletters and books, the fog can only lift after NO CONTACT for a while (probably a long while with a LTA).

My brother told me just yesterday that he thinks that H is about 15% to 20% of the way back, and that H is starting to finally be able to focus on his job and remember instructions from one hour to the next.

Here at home, for the last two nights, H has not had his "withdrawal" hissy fits, and instead when he does break down, it has been all about how he hurt others. Not how "he" can't stand this pain any more.

Just this second, H texted me "I feel bad 4 causing us so much pain, agony & insecurity". It's a start. Much better than the constant "I want to build a new M with you" texts.

H is also for the last two days visibly trying to meet my needs, and that is a welcome change. I know that I cannot get used to it right now, but I am valuing the effort for sure.

So...my "plan" for right now is focus on no contact every waking moment that I can. And take care of myself. And read the Bible so that I can keep my trust in God up and my own emotions out of this for right now. Any other suggestions are welcome. I sooooo appreciate all of you. HUGS!!!!

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of Blindsighted and Dumbman's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3

Awesome! Thank you BrainHurts!!!

You are a strong and good woman, BS2013. Prayers and hugs to you.

You're very welcome.

He did not ruin her life. That skank ruined her own life by screwing a married man. She was a volunteer, not a victim. The only victim here is YOU. Skanky is a big girl who can take accountability for her own choices. She KNEW she was doing a married man. I will reserve my crocodile tears for you, not some hoe who purposely and maliciously set out to wreck your marriage.

Thank You!

How are things?

Hi StrongerMe....

how are things....hmmm....

I know that it's been too long away from the forums, and I apologize to all of you for that. I HAVE still been reading. I just haven't known where to start posting how quickly things are going.

I guess that I'll just start typing and see where it leads...

Up until a week ago, I would have had to say that H was still in a big fog. I will spare everyone by not giving TMI about the things that he talked about in his sleep lol. It has (mostly) cleared now and he is a totally 1000% different person.

GETTING to this de-fogged point has been nothing short of heck for me.

Meanwhile, my brother has been the beacon of light for both of us during the entire last four weeks.

My brother calls me every day and spends as long as necessary for me to vent my emotions to him, and he also sparingly offers his sparks of wisdom. Sparingly is great with me, because then I truly listen and process what he is saying.

My brother also spends time with my H every day (on the job) talking with him and sharing his insight and LISTENING to H.

My brother has SINGLE HANDEDLY taken us both to the Light. I can't describe it any other way. He has to be employed by God right now, because this is above and beyond the call of duty lol.

Both H and I were raised Catholic. Mine was a very new age exposure. H's was a very old and unbending exposure (they still said Mass in Latin until about 20 years ago).

Somehow...my brother has gotten us both to go to HIS church (not Catholic) and totally gotten us both re-immersed in the Bible. We have been going to Bible Study together and to Church every Sunday. And this week H made an appointment with that Pastor, so we went there on Tuesday night and spilled our guts...MY GOSH WAS THAT FREEING! Pastor spent 2-1/2 hours with us and totally backed up all of the MB teachings (he had ordered all of the books after finding out that is what we were following, and he also spent the time reading Dr. H's site, so he knew what verbiage, etc. that we were following).

We have an ongoing weekly appointment with Pastor scheduled, and he and his wife are going out to lunch with us next Sunday after Church.

Where I am now: I am verifying everything still, takes about 1/2 hour each day. I do realize that is a "must do" and probably will be for at least the next year. H is showering me with meeting my EN's, like a knight in shining armor, truly. He is anticipating nearly my every move due to my intestinal issues (that are finally tapering off). It's like nothing that I ever had in my life from H, but I recognize it for love because my Dad and my brother have always treated me that way.

Now for me...I don't feel the same any more.

I am SO hurt from the last D-Day, that I don't know where I am. I MUST be letting H in a little bit because I felt some sparks for the last two days. Fleeting, like for a minute or two, and then back to my hurt...but they are there. So if I feel those sparks, then I can't be in withdrawal, correct?

If I talk about my emotions, then I can say that I just am numb. I don't expect anything. I am totally OKAY with us being over because I KNOW that I am strong and I am loved by God and my family. But all of the sudden I don't really think that we are over at all!

I am totally focusing on my own healing, but also I am being as pleasant as possible to H and I am acknowledging everything that he does. I am also meeting his EN, maybe not perfectly right now, but better than I did in the distant past, just not as well as I did during our FR.

So now what? After the first D-Day, I listened to this site and I stopped thinking or talking about the A. My pain lessened verrry gradually. THIS time, the pain is not as often, but it is more intense. I truly don't KNOW if I have all of the facts now, because I do not trust my H. Pastor asked me why I won't just let it go...and I can NOT. No way. I want into every single room of H's brain, every single thought that he had, every single detail, before I will give it up. 2x4's welcome, but you'll have to follow up with knowing my story before offering 2x4's please.

Polygraph...H is totally willing, but I am the one who is now afraid. My brother pointed out and rightly so, that H would not pass a polygraph. H can't even wear a watch because of the electrical impulses in his body, never could. Brother thought of a voice analysis, but I went and searched that info and those don't seem too reliable. H's story and his later TT was so repulsive that I don't even know that I NEED a poly, BUT two things....with as horrid as it all was, the worst imaginable after a 12.5 year "marriage" to her...one, I don't believe that she never flew to be out of town with him when he was working for months out of state. And two, I don't believe him about the way that they "ended".

How will I ever know? And if I can't know....can I ever move on to recovery again? H swears up and down that he has told me all of the truth, and really why WOULD he have held it back? But he totally took away MY proof of finality in the ending by warning her of the exposure.

So now what? I asked Joyce when she called back after we were on the radio show...and Joyce recommends that I just put it all in the past now. Makes sense to me...but I don't seem to be able to do that. Any ideas or insights?

How about calling on a polygraph and ask them, before saying no?

I would just go ahead and do as BrainHurts suggests. Call the polygraph place and see where this can take you. Either way, if you decide to stay on the path to recovery, this will all have to be placed into the past.

Recovery really is a journey; it's not a destination. It's going to take a long while before you trust your H again, and it will never again be the kind of blind trust of the pre-A marriage. Blind trust is never appropriate in marriage anyway, as we have all discovered.

It was many months before I could even tell my H that I loved him. Almost a year, I think. It took all those months seeing the changes in my H before I started to believe that perhaps it was genuine and lasting. You are only seeing the "new" husband for a week or so, following the de-fogging. Give yourself plenty of time, following the program every single day.

At this point of recovery, time is against you, but in a few years, IF your H continues on his path of recovery and Just Compensation, and if you do as well, then you will be able to live in your marriage without the resentment and deep hurt you are experiencing now.

Frankly, I confess that thoughts of my H's affairs and his past crappy treatment of me still come to my mind every single day. I wish they wouldn't, but they do. However, I quickly dispel them and replace them with the good things we have today. But there is no more resentment of the past, because the present is SO much better than it ever was before. The pain is (thankfully) gone, because our marriage is so fulfilling to both of us.

In a year or so, your H will seem like a different man to you, and he will be much the better for it. You are on the roller coaster of emotions now, but eventually, your road will be smoother and more even.

I left messages at three poly places today (I chose certified ones from the site that Brainhurts mentions). You're right, it can't hurt to at least ask. I can form my own decision about whether to take the chance or not.

I also worked on getting health insurance for me for when H leaves his union. Our plan is the first of the year, so we are pretty much ready to go.

A question about what I do now...I feel like I'm still in limbo since H's fog is so newly evaporating... Do I start back to POJA'ing everything? For instance...Thanksgiving...I do not want to do anything with family. I do not want to go anywhere and pretend that I am "normal" when my world has just gotten bombed again. EVERYTHING is a trigger for me all over again. H says that is totally okay and we can do anything that I want (volunteering at a soup kitchen is in my mind, or else a long drive away from here), but does that mean that he is sacrificing? Should we still POJA it in spite of the reasons that I don't want to go anywhere?

You and your H should use the POJA to decide how you both want to spend Thanksgiving...or any of the holidays coming up shortly. The goal is for mutual enthusiastic agreement. He wouldn't be sacrificing if the solution you both select makes you both happy with the outcome.

Copying from another thread that I did not want to t/j

Such great and hopeful input from mrEureka that I didn't want to forget it.
I have been having dreams or something every night for the last few nights. Thought processes going through my head over and over, and they keep waking me up. This morning, H encouraged me to talk about it, and the gist of it is that I am (finally) realizing that the A happened NOT so much because of EN's not being met, but because he didn't have boundaries and protection in place. EVER. EVER is a tough realization for me. I'm valuing and grieving the loss off a 32 year M that truly never had boundaries in place.

H said it perfectly this morning when he said that now with MB, we are both learning to have Goodwill towards each other (Dr. H's word from this past Friday's radio show) and he says that the difference now is that he is Devoted to me. I feel it. It's only been a bit over a week that I have felt it, but I do feel it.

Early in our recovery, I used to think that the affair somehow invalidated our prior 30 years of our marriage. In our case ENs were being met, too. It was the boundaries that were not in place that enabled the affair. So, I know where you are coming from.

In time, you will come to respect the good things about your past 30 years together. You will realize that the good outweighs the bad, and you will accept the fact that your marriage really has existed all along. Remember, the marriage was the part of the total experience that was real. The affair was the part that was fantasy. Your recovery will prove the validity of your entire marriage from the beginning.

Thanks LWFM, we broached it a bit yesterday on the way to church. It went VERY well�I felt safe talking because I felt that he was sharing his honest feelings with me regarding his Mom.

His Mom hasn't treated me very well since exposure, and H did say that he understood why I wouldn't want to be around her�to which I told him that I felt hurt that even HE wants to be around her�to which he replied "it's my Mom, so what should I do? Never see her again?".

I am hoping that it won't come to that, never is a long time, but at this point I don't feel safe having either of us spend time with her. So I asked if we could please table THAT particular POJA until we are further into recovery, and if we could just POJA this particular holiday season. He agreed, so that is what we will do.

EXACTLY! Invalidated everything�that is what I keep thinking also�so there is hope that will change! Thank you for sharing!

From your keyboard to God's eyes! I'm still not totally getting the real versus fantasy, because it doesn't compute to me how any of us could choose to live like that. It's obvious from reading these forums that is what happens�and that the wayward ISN'T thinking of their spouse at that time. I'm just not getting it yet how the fog isn't really "them". But I DO BELIEVE what all of you who have gone before me are saying, and so I am stepping out on faith. I am trusting that as time goes by, I will feel the same. And that knowledge will help me to heal. Thank you!!!

I need to be honest here and say that our ENs weren't being met at the time of the A.

BUT we are realizing that they weren't able to be met because H had stepped out of the M selfishly. I am speaking of even years before the A.

He had zero boundaries from the beginning. This is his realization also. It was fine when I doted on him, but then when our youngest daughter had health issues and I had to focus on her, that allowed him to become angry and feel entitled to do whatever he chose.

I suspect that we need to re-visit the buyers versus renters page. I'm trying not to have SDs and DJs to H by trying to "teach" him this stuff, and so I don't quite know how to broach it.

I am quite exhausted. I think that after being in a false R for so long, and now after finally seeing real changes recently, that my mind and body are signaling that it is safe to rest. With all of this church, work (it's my busiest season), bible study, and 3-1/2 hours of UA time each night, I am extremely tired.

H is going with me to my cancer doc tomorrow for my check up. I've already had my tests done and so I'm sure that they would have called me if there were a problem, but I am going to take naps each day this week. I will be hurting next year's income by not working so much right now, but church and M recovery are the priorities and I can't do everything.

It is coming up on 2 months since TRUE no contact, so I thought that it was time for an update.

H is mostly out of the fog (there are still moments) and usually a pleasure to be around now.

Now it seems that the "trouble" is me�I can't seem to get the same feeling as I did during our FR. H is totally falling over himself to meet my needs now. It seems to feel good to me for a few minutes, but then my mind seems to call "BS" and immediately goes back to that FR. My boundaries go up and I keep tumbling off that roller coaster cliff.

UA - we are getting 25-30 or more hours per week. Again, my causing problems here�I rarely feel relaxed or like it is fun when we are out. I think of protecting myself each time that I do find myself having fun. Last weekend, we resorted to my giving H a verbal request each time that I felt badly while we were out. Request for piling on the endearments (affection and admiration). It felt odd to us both, but it helped a bunch, and I felt relaxed (even if not exactly having "fun") for the first time in a long while.

H messed up on the EPs and IB last weekend. He found $2 in his pants pocket and he did not immediately call to tell me. I know where the cash came from�it was from us stopping for ice cream last week and I'd given him the cash and then forgotten to get the change. H stopped and bought a lottery ticket as a "surprise" for me. Oh man was I gutted�I know that to most, it's may be just a mess up, but to ME it felt like he messed up in SO many ways: by not telling me immediately when he found the cash, by not POJAing the lottery ticket, by not REALIZING how upset that I immediately was when he "surprised" me with the ticket.

I was heading towards an AO when my mind calmed and I realized that is not enough to chuck the whole M over�so instead I asked him to re-write by hand all of our EPs. He himself figured out and brought up that he needs to even hand over quarters to me that he picks up from the ground, so he has added that to the EP list. That made me feel a little bit like I could breathe again.

So we still have a long way to go. We did the EN questionnaire again last week, and O&H has moved to my top EN.

Back to UA time�this Christmas is very difficult for me because of how it feels for me to be "celebrating" with family and friends when I don't feel like celebrating. BUT�.H and I have turned some lemons into lemonade by planning some dates to view the best Christmas lights, and by POJA'ing each and every family visit so that we have secret signals to get us out of there if I feel badly, and also by POJA'ing the (lack of) Christmas decor in our home (I threw out all of our past decorations after D-Day lol). I honestly wouldn't have thought that I could face the Holidays this year, but we are taking each day at a time and running from expected triggers together.

I couldn't have gotten to the point where I could make this post without all of your help!

I want to take this moment to say thank you again to all of you who give of so much of your time to make these forums so valuable for all of us. I wish each and every one of you a peace-filled Christmas.

We did a lot of stumbling along the road towards recovery, too, Blindsighted. It will get better and better as time passes and the habits of you and your husband change to marriage-building habits.

My H said a couple of weeks ago to me that although we've been married for 33-plus years, we've only really been TRULY married for the last three. The last three have been our best years ever, even though they arose out of the ashes of hurt and betrayal.

Keep on keeping on.

BTW, recently I heard Dr. Harley talk on the radio show about family visits. He suggests that a married couple agree ahead of time how long to stay and to leave BEFORE any bad feelings start. Leave wanting more.

May God bless you and your husband with an enriching and wonderful marriage that you both never dreamed possible.

Stumbling, yes LWFH, we have lots of stumbling. Yes, finally, the habits are starting to become our "go-to" for conflict resolution.

We took a road trip last weekend and went to visit our daughter in another state. It was very nice! We POJA'd everything and that took care of any possible fear of conflict.

The bar is exceedingly high now, and any little thing that H says or does that is the slightest veer away from a Godly man practicing Marriage Builders principles is NOT acceptable for me now. The good thing for us both is that finally I am able to make thoughtful requests or complaints (rather than LB) to deal with this.

I'd like some input from those who have gone before me on something: My family, H's family, our pastor�everyone keeps suggesting to me that I am being a bit too stringent. My Dad says I need to learn to trust again (nope, trust but verify). H's Mom says that I am being mean and that H "won't be able to live being chained to me like this" (nope, H says that he likes our EPs now, and that's good with me, because I won't stay M without them). Pastor says that I still need to learn to trust God more to be in charge of my life and that I need to back off a bit on my hyper-vigilance so that I don't become bitter (maybe, I'm thinking on that one).

I don't want to become a control freak. The goal is to REPAIR our M and go on to being able to enjoy a life with each other in a way that we never did before. I do want to become relaxed again in our marriage. But then again, some of these people have been witnessing us going through this for eight months already, and they seem to forget that TRULY we only began genuine recovery two months ago.

H and I both think that since this was such a long term A, that we quite literally HAD to throw out everything and start over. We both think that finally we are AT that point, with a clean slate so to speak. We have had continual bumps, but we are working through them. More on next post.

I think its easy to have an "opinion" when it is not your ox getting gored. What they think is not relevant to your marriage. What is relevant to your marriage is what you and your husband decide. What makes YOU feel safe? Hyper vigilance will make you feel safer, not more bitter. It will alleviate bitterness.

I would thank them for their marriage advice and do what is necessary.

Having EPs in no way means God is not in charge of your life. When God is in charge of your life, you still take precautions to protect yourself. For example, God is very much in charge of my life but I still wear a seat belt and look both ways before I cross the street. That doesn't mean I don't trust God, it means I make rational choices about protecting myself. Trusting God does not mean we take foolish risks.

I do believe that God can repair what we humans cannot, and so I am really wanting to turn my sadness and anger and hurt and trauma ALL over to Him. That sad wave of despair that has haunted me since D-Day is finally lifting for moments at a time.

We are having "normal life" conflicts finally, and I think that is a good thing!

For instance, H listens to MB on his phone app every single day while at work. We generally talk about it at night together. Sometimes it is tough for me because H is not reading the boards and doesn't get the whole story�and Dr. H will respond in a surprising way because on the radio show there is only so much time and the whole story is not divulged. And then H will feel frustrated if Dr. H is seemingly inconsistent.

I don't want to waste our valuable UA time going and looking things up on these boards so that H gets the whole story (when the caller is someone on these boards and we can read the thread)�it takes HOURS for him to maneuver these boards, truly it does�he is just not computer literate.

So finally last evening we POJA'd about us NOT having to fill in the gaps any more after the daily radio show LOL�Whew, what a relief for me today!

Thank you Melody! I appreciate the re-assurance. I needed that! I think that now that we are into this for a couple of months, I will try to come on here more often and post day to day stuff so that you all can point out if I am still in the BS fog.

Another point�after exposure and then the FR, we both were in a goldfish bowl for all to see�I am going to bring that up for POJA tonight�we can practice how I can respond to this stuff in the future.

I agree. I think what Pastor is saying is that now I am being hyper-vigilant at everything, not just our EPs.

For instance, our youngest daughter trains horses for a second job. Two weeks ago she took on a stallion that I was scared to death of, and I kept calling her every couple of days to remind her of things that she KNOWS. She said that I was driving her nuts and that she couldn't go about her life waiting for bad things to happen. I had such a horribly bad feeling about it�and sure enough ten days ago, the horse couldn't get her off of him, and so he resorted to flipping over with her on his back. The hospital cleared her of any injuries except for a horribly sprained ankle, but I am nuts about THAT now�that's why we went down to see her and her hubby last weekend LOL. YES I see that she is alive and fine and wearing a big old air boot on her leg, but I am still afraid.

In a nutshell, I am having to come to grips that bad things can and do happen to good people. I was 50 years old, thought that we were financially set, and thought that we had a solid M that would last the rest of our lives. I had cancer the year before and when you find that out, you instantly want to believe it is a nightmare also. So then when the A was discovered a year later, it's like WOW my safe cocoon is not only NOT safe, but not REAL! Hah!

I don't necessarily think that the A rocked my faith�I personally think that I have turned to God more than ever�but Pastor may be right that I am not trusting the same. Maybe that is not a bad thing really�more like a shock of real life. Maybe an opportunity to learn real gratitude for what we DO have?

This Pastor is not from our faith of origin. We tried going to our own church for help and did not get much, and so my brother set us up with his pastor. Pastor has helped us so much that now we attend services there. I am focusing MUCH more on the Bible than I ever did before, and if my trust in God needs to be notched up, then I am open.

Rational choices to protect myself�THAT is what I need to focus on, thank you again Melody. The EPs are rational, taking vigilant care with my health right now is rational, obsessive worrying about my daughter's own choices are not necessarily rational, are they?

I am stunned when I think of all the crappy well-meaning advice I have heard over the years regarding marriage. Women are advised to "submit" and "forgive," that we will all answer to God one day. Very few people really know how to advise others in how to have a great marriage.

Even Dr. Harley failed in his first attempts at counseling. He mistakenly believed it was commitment that held a marriage together. It wasn't until after he deeply analyzed the reasons he and Joyce were so happy together and then studied many other marriages that he began to uncover what makes marriages successful and what causes them to fail.

MB has taught us a completely new way of living out our marriage and it is very logical. The EPs and the POJA keep a marriage safe. If they were a part of every marriage, infidelity would not exist. Anyone who says it's controlling or hypervigilant just doesn't understand. They're not living the betrayal and trying desperately to recover.

Give yourself a couple of years at the very minimum to start to feel like you're beginning to trust your H again. And it will never again be the kind of blind trust we all once had. It will be the trust that your husband has your back, that he has your best interests in mind.

And good for you two for negotiating and coming to enthusiastic agreement about how to listen to the radio show.

You're right on the nose, LWFH. I'm realizing after talking on here today that well-meaning "advice" has gotten to almost be a trigger to me. My Dad especially is so important to me, but (fortunately) he hasn't ever been through anything similar.

I shared on someone else's thread how I am realizing that I need to notch down the auto-accept of my elder's opinions. Thank you Melody and LWFH for helping me to realize this.

Yep! EPs and POJA and PORH are the only way that we have gotten this far. It's an interesting exercise to become logical about this, but it WORKS!

So now hyper-vigilant me is going to remain that way and head out of here to get ready for date night.

Still hanging in here. We had a rough weekend due to POJA issues, but then we were able to solve them on Monday night and had a good Tuesday and Wednesday.

I am still not "enjoying" UA time, but we do seem to both be aiming towards that moving target. Last weekend when we got away, we went swimming in the hotel pool and had a good time. So we decided to get me a Y membership so that we can try swimming together. Swimming used to be one of my favorite things�not sure if H will enjoy it though�he says yes he will if he can see that I am having fun. We will try. We ended up settling on just a membership for me, and then we will pay the $10 guest fee each time that H goes with me.

H continues to stick to EPs and I have noticed a couple of times in the last few days where he is volunteering information about phone calls and general rooms of his life that he is sharing with me. I am trying to make a point of letting him know that I notice, and thanking him for including me.

This morning we noticed that when I am feeling icky, H falls all over himself to give near-constant re-assurance�but then when I am feeling better (like I have for the last couple of days), H doesn't think of giving re-assurance as often. Then I seem to start thinking�and that is not generally a good thing lol. So I asked H if he could notch up the re-assurance on the good days too. He got up from the table and gave me a big hug and said that he had just thought the same thing because he could tell that I had gotten quiet. So that was an easy POJA. Crossing fingers!

Okay, off for the day here. I said that I would try to come on here more often to post day to day stuff so that you all can alert me if I am having BS fog. Kind of boring post I know, but thanks for reading.

BlindSighted,

I'm not anywhere near a Recovery situation yet, but I appreciate hearing how you are doing. You have helped so many people here already. And I can hear your dedication and determination to work on Recovery in each post. (And your H has come a long way!) Personally, I think you are doing great! Thank you for your posts - they encourage me to do better too.

Good news on the swimming, BlindSighted! Dr. H says that exercising together is one of the most effective uses of UA time...

Your commitment to post regularly at this time is a good idea. Sometimes the act of writing everything down helps clarify things in your mind. The little wins, and the litlle irritations, too. These little chafe-points can work like sand in your shoe... not really noticible until you get a blister, and then it's too late...

Not at all a boring post! It is so good to read this update from you. Recovery isn't easy, is it?

I was reading some older posts from you...

Sorry to hear that your mother in law hasn't treated you well. I can sympathize with you on that one. I also completely understand that it hurts you that your husband would even want to be around her. I struggle with this! We did go "no contact" again, but it hasn't been easy. It was the "elephant in the room" for a while. I hope you and your H are able to work through this and POJA a solution that works for both of you.

I also know ignoring all the unsolicited advice and judgments about what you are doing to recover your marriage is easier said than done. As long as both you and your H believe in the program though, it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks. You both know what is working for you.

Keep us updated. Your struggles and feelings are very similar to mine, and your posts (and the replies!) are such a blessing to me, and I'm sure to others.

Hi Stronger, my H has actually backed way off from MIL. He has only spoken to her twice on the phone this week for like 4 minutes each time. I'm not certain why, but he did mention to me the other evening that she is not acting like a very good person lately. I am just kind of stepping back and watching and waiting.

As for the holidays, I think that we spent 1/2 hour with her on Thanksgiving, and maybe an hour at Christmas (Christmas was actually my choice as we had POJAd before hand just to pop in and out, and then it was actually pleasant enough for me�so that I was the one who took H aside and offered to stay longer).

The larger POJA issues that we are having do involve MIL though.

The "family" apartments that I have mentioned previously. They are all MILs now after FIL passed away. H and I had previously been maintaining them and collecting the rents.

Then d-day hit, and H can NOT go there alone ever again. So H hired other people for maintenance, and we started going there together every Friday together to collect the rents.

Except for THEN I discovered the FR, and everything had to change again. NO MORE driving to the apartments the way that we used to go. We made a one hour no-travel circle around OWs zone, and so now we can't go on any of the freeways that we have known our whole lives. Now we have to go way out of our way to get to the apartments (and any where)�it takes SO long to drive now that we count it as 3 hours of UA time lol...and so we POJAd only going twice monthly to collect rents.

Well�.last week after that huge cold spell, two of the apartments had floods and one furnace was trashed. H called people to take care of the flooding, but they were inept and so we ended up POJA'ing and going there ourselves to at least stop the water. We are having trouble getting reliable help, and now he has three more maintenance people that we will interview in two weeks when we go there. But as for the furnace, we finally settled on our adult daughter going with H for a Daddy-Daughter day out and they will install the furnace together.

Enthusiastic agreement about them spending time together. He will take her out to a nice lunch, and they will be able to heal some wounds (hopefully) from the A.

But we are both disappointed in the way that we handled this. It was grueling and it took us almost a WEEK of POJA'ing! We kept having to take breaks to avoid LB'ing. I did stick to my guns and I don't think that I sacrificed. We did finally solve it, yay, but we are definitely whipped puppies!

Great idea about the Daddy-Daughter time for the furnace! I love to hear how persistently you guys are PoJA'ing. Sounds like you both are doing well in Recovery.

BlairBluefin, I guess that it really DOES seem pretty awesome to be this far already�it really does, so thank you!

I guess that to both of us it still feels that we mess up more than we get it right.

I have to be honest and say that I feel practically nothing, nada, less than inspired, about H ever since the FR. Yes, we are getting over 30 hours per week UA time, just for us, set aside�but I am not having fun.

For 32 years, I truly operated from love, but unfortunately it was unconditional love.

I get some little sparks these days, but then my natural "go-to" seems to be self-protector mode. I really feel certain that if I did not already have an aged and experienced self confidence level in tact (thank God), I would have two feet out the door. That plus the Grace of God has kept me here.

So it is still beyond tough for me to even be in UA time, yet alone enjoy it. He is being totally humble and planted firmly in stepping ON home plate, but I really DO have to be with him nearly 24/7 (due to his entrenched A). He made dinner last night (stuffed peppers!), he goes with me to my doc appointments, he helps me with my work now, he prays with me every day! If he had acted like this pre-D-Day, I would be salivating round the clock.

But most every single night, I still wake every two hours or so with visions of them having wild sex (unfortunately, on D-Day 2 he told me what they did).

I still am trusting all of the previous MB folks who say that the passion will return. The really GREAT thing is that SF is one of my highest needs, and so once he started actively trying to meet my needs for that plus affection, etc, it keeps me going. Sad to say, I know, because the very thing that does give me some relief also causes me horrible mind tapes. I don't know how to get around them, but I AM trusting God and all of you who have gone before me (yes I have almost memorized the mind memories thread, and it is GREAT! That plus praying has gotten me through so far).

Im so sorry for your pain

It sounds like you feel raw, and surreal much of the time. I can't even imagine your pain. Your H pulled a number on you, having that LTA for such a long time. He will need to work very hard to earn that spot back in your heart.

I'm saying extra prayers for you tonight.

Thanks Jedi and Blair. I sure don't mean to be a downer (sounds like I was when I re-read my post). The FR did a number on me energy wise, but most days I am able to now look forward and use all of the tools that we have learned here to help keep myself positive.

Those mind tapes are worse when I am tired, that is for sure.

I think that normal life stuff like we had to POJA last week takes a bigger toll than we realize. H brought up last evening that perhaps we STILL need to pare down our activities and do less. I think that he is right, so we will figure out how to do that.

Yes BlairBluefin, I think that it may take extra diligence for me to feel that passion again, but we both do seem to be committed. Thank you for your prayers.

Do you feel that your love bank is trending in the right direction (even if it is sometimes 2 steps forward, 1 step back)?

I'm going to project myself on you a little bit now, so if I'm off the mark, I apologize. I know I struggle with being completely vulnerable to my H - on the one hand, my heart is protected; however, my heart can't fully love him either. I don't know when I'll feel safe enough to be vulnerable, but I know I must do it to truly have the marriage that I want, even though it seems like such a risk to me!

After everything you've been through (especially the FR), I think it is going to take time, maybe lots of time, to cross over the threshold. It sounds like the two of you are doing all the right things and that eventually the spark/passion will return. I, like you, am trusting the process.

I don't honestly know, StrongerMe, I don't feel much at all except for I guess what I would describe as a "contentment" with where we are now. I don't feel that welling of love in my heart like I used to feel.

Yes! When he does things now that extra thoughtful, I DO notice them, but then my mind seems to say "can't trust that it's real!".

We are still LB'ing (very occasionally) each other when a conflict "sneaks up on us", and I think that causes me to stay in this "safe" mode. Maybe him too? We seem to be able to save it FAST now, we recognize it FAST and we POJA pleasantly to solve it FAST in spite of our Takers. But we know that is not good enough.

We identify conflicts sooner now, and we POJA all through the day, but sometimes we are still missing that safe target in dealing with things quickly enough.

For instance, last night after I got ready for bed, I came into the kitchen to see his phone turned over. Trigger, Trigger, Trigger! I LB'ed him with my words, and then I left him sitting there (while I immediately abandoned him to check �all good, he had just called a renter as he had told me he did, but THEN I went and took his phone and physically checked all of his history and photos, and pretty much his whole phone right in front of him).

And I did annihilate him with my words�he asked for us please not to over-react and ruin the night, and I responded that "oh no, HE ruined the night by his choices for 13 years, and so now I am going to do what I have to do to protect myself".

I should have waited until today to check everything, rather than stuffing my total mis-trust in his face. I check everything once daily any way. I realize that brought up the A and the REASONS for my trigger, and so that alone was a LB. He was hurt by my words and then he LB'ed me when we went to bed and I tried to cuddle. Ugliness on both of our parts.

We POJAd in bed last night and came up with an enthusiastic agreement for dealing with it enough so that we could both be calm and sleep.

This morning he apologized to me with affection, and offered for us to POJA if I want him to get rid of his phone and just wear a GPS on his person. No I do not, and I apologized to him for my actions also, but as I am typing this out I realize that I played a big part in this LB-fest and I need to apologize again. This is SO DIFFICULT�.I was triggered because of trauma from what HE did�and yet I have to still be kind and considerate. I KNOW that I have to do that, and so I guess I need to step up my learning.

I've just realized that DUH we can POJA making it a rule that his phone is NEVER turned over. No opportunity to trigger! We both seem to be unable to see the forest for the trees sometimes.

The problem with LB'ers is that I really AM (finally) realizing that they are intentional disregard of our spouse's feelings. I had never truly understood that before, even though Dr. H always stated it as so.

We both agree that now any mis-handling of conflict is hurting so much more than it used to, and that is probably because we ARE FINALLY STARTING TO BECOME interdependent. That is a great thing! But now we have to take EXTRAORDINARY CARE not to hurt each other!

StrongerMe, I re-read your entire Starting Recovery thread last week and yes you and your H seem to have been through much similar to us. Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts and wonder just how in the world we are even still together lol.

Are you still feeling in limbo with feelings of love also? Did you ever post after your FR? The thread that I read didn't specifically discuss that, so I am betting that I did not read the correct thread. Is there one out there? You don't have to provide a link to it if you are uncomfortable, but if you have one then I will go searching for it again. I would love to read it if you don't mind. I do think that you and I think a lot alike (including the female logorrhea stuff�I think that I used to do that big time, and you've helped me a TON by reading your posts about it).

Hehe, I write such long posts here. Do you all think that I still have female logorrhea?

Yes, I think that a LTA does have some extra difficulties. The extreme trauma of losing years of our lives probably causes us to trigger more often whenever we have a past memory. But I also do see and believe that Dr. H is correct in saying that every A can recover in the same way by following his plan. We just have to find the way to get to zero together, so that we can begin true R. I do *think* that we are there finally�but of course if others read my post and see BS fog, please let me know.

Trying to keep with my commitment to post updates periodically.

Last week when the new Budweiser commercial was released, I was so excited to show hubby. We both love animals.

H started crying by the end of it. I was very startled, and then I realized that the song says how you only know you love her when you let her go. I felt like I had a ton of bricks on my chest, and I thought that he was crying because he "only knew he loved OW when he let her go". I cannot ask that though, right? So I didn't. I told him that I had been excited to show him the commercial and that I am sorry for upsetting him with it.

He said oh no, he loved it, and those are happy tears. This didn't make much sense to me, and I was upset for two days because I didn't know what to say or do.

Finally on Saturday morning, I took him coffee in bed and said that I needed his help with something. I told him that I didn't know if it was appropriate to bring up because it involved a trigger. He said that he wanted to hear what was bothering me.

So I told him about my worry, and it initiated a long discussion. He told me that it was nothing to do with OW at all, and more to do with his feelings coming to the surface lately. He says that he would have cried even if there were no music, and that he was crying because it was a beautifully done snippet about the horses working together to support the puppy so that the pup could be all that he could be. H said that he did not feel that kind of support from me once we had the children, and that he always felt incredibly lonely. He said that everything that he had tried to do to support us financially was never good enough.

I told him thank you for sharing that with me, and asked if he feels supported today. He said that he does feel my support now.

H DOES have a point about his feelings. He was making a lot of money and it truly was never enough because our youngest had lupus and the medical bills were astounding. But through my eyes, I thought that we were ALL working together to do the best that we could in a bad situation.

His words did hurt my feelings, but I can own my contribution to the problem (LB'er abounded from both of us, and so really we weren't working together). MB teaches us that if those were his feelings at the time, then they were RIGHT even though I also felt like I was carrying a big load... Running the household, working, taking daughter to doctors, help with schoolwork, OH MAN I could step off the edge of that anger slope if I keep thinking about it. But it's the PAST, right? Should I think about why it is that I have empathy for him, and he sees this situation all through his perspective without thinking the best or having empathy for me?

I'm trying to guess what you all will say�that this is the PAST, and that is why Dr. Harley says not to bring up the past. And for us both to be constantly RH so that we never have to bear any frustrating feelings alone again. I CAN bring that up to H, right? Like just say "honey, I'm thinking about what you told me about feeling so alone in our past, and I want to assure you that I care for you and never want you to feel unhappy like that again. Can we promise to always be asap radically honest in the future whenever we feel anything that bothers us?". Should I just leave it at that?

This recovery stuff is DIFFICULT!

I love reading your updates BS. We are on R too and I reading about your experiences resonate so much with me.

We had the same issue, the past. Do we need to talk about the past, not specifically the A, but the months previous to it?. I'm sure your case is different because the lenght of his A. I would say that as long as your talking about the past has some sort of benefit for your M then go for it. Do it slow and evaluate if it really did help and if it didn't stir any unhealthy feelings.

I'm amazed your man cried in front of you. Hubby will never cry in front of me. He is so unexpressive. When he broke the A, he showed no feelings, exposure, no feelings either. Never mad, sad or anything, zero. I have asked him about exposure, if it made him mad. He said nope.


You are right BlindSighted2013, R is not for the weak, there are so many times I feel like a headless chicken running through the woods. Keep up your good work and keep us updated!

Yes, indeed, recovery IS hard!

I think that you and your husband both really need to work hard at keeping things in the present. If he cries at something and he's thinking about the past, and you ask him why he's weeping, then instead of telling you exactly what the trigger was, he should tell you that he was thinking about something sad in the past that isn't the case anymore, and leave it at that. He, like you, needs to think in terms of what is going on NOW.

Radical honesty doesn't mean you and he ought to be spilling out the crappy reminders of the crappy past that neither of you can do anything about now. It didn't do you a bit of good to hear that, because it's dwelling on mistakes of the past and you can't go back and fix it.

Radical honesty, now that the affair is over, is about telling each other your honest reactions to decisions being made currently, to each others behavior, to likes and dislikes.

I think it's a fine idea to make sure that you and he agree that in the future you will both always be radically honest with each other. When we signed up for the Online Seminar, we each signed an agreement that listed out just this sort of thing. We consider them our new vows we were making to each other.

When either of you gets stuck momentarily in the past, ask yourself, "But what's happening NOW?"

LWFH, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! Your words are JUST the medicine that we both needed! I told H last night what you said and we both emphatically enthusiastically agreed that we needed your very well said reminder.

Thank you Alada! I'm glad that my posts help in some way. Yep to feeling like a headless chicken. These MB forums are such a Godsend though, and I'm with you that reading other people's posts help me so much.

I just posted on your thread Alada. Sorry for it taking me a bit of time. We are having a snowstorm here and since I hate this weather, H and I were trying to make lemonade out of lemons and have fun in the snow. We decided that tonight we are going to try to make a giant snowman.

Just another update.

During our weekly meeting with Pastor on Tuesday, we did a bit of an analysis of how we are feeling now. Pastor asked how we looked at our marriage for the last couple of weeks versus when we began having him help us.

He asked on a scale of 1-10 with one being two feet out the door and ten being totally in love. How did we feel when we first began with Pastor. I answered a one and H answered a 1 or 2. Then he asked how we feel now during the last week or so. I answered a 4 and H answered a 6. YAY!

Pastor cautioned us that now that we are feeling a little bit better, it will become easier for us to blow off daily bible reading and spending UA time together. He cautioned us that our M has had a big injury and is still in "intensive care" haha, and that we need to keep it in that "cast" for a long while.

Something happened last night that triggered me. I think that we handled it well. Differing opinions are welcome.

My H has always worn a couple of gold chains. I don't know why, but I never thought about "where those chains have been" until last night. It hit me like a ton of bricks, and I felt like I was falling down into a deep nasty cavern as I scurried to think of how to bring it up WITHOUT talking about the A.

I finally spit it out that "his chains are bothering me". Unfortunately, he didn't get it and thought that I meant that they were physically rubbing against me or hurting me in some way (we had just hugged). I had to come pretty close to spelling it out, but he got it before that was necessary, and he went and took them off.

I feel guilty because he really really loved those chains. His Mom gave him one and our adult daughter the other, a zillion years ago. He didn't complain, and instead he reminded me about what pastor said that we have to wear a cast for a while. That was sweet.

Today though, I still feel sad for him to have to go without something that defined him even before the A. I just don't think that I'll ever be able to look at those chains again. I told H that we can go out and buy him a new one. He answered maybe someday, but for right now we need this cast on. More sweetness, BUT I can tell that he is really sad about it, and HE can't talk about it either. So I guess that this is one of those things that we just have to buck up on and fight to make it the PAST and not approachable in our heads.

I know that someday I can bring it up again and offer to go out with him to buy a new chain, but not now.

Last post for the day. I figured that instead of having a whole book of updates, I would break them down so that it is easier to read.

H gave me a heartfelt apology last night for being so selfish during our marriage. I have longed to hear a true out-of-the-blue apology for so long (as opposed to an I'm sorry as a RESPONSE to something we are talking about), but for some reason it didn't sink in like I thought that it would.

I thought that when the day finally came, I would treasure and almost memorize his words. Sad to say, I can't even remember how he started it when he brought it up last night.

I think that I really need to do more work on myself right now, so that I can feel ME back for a larger percentage of each day and become more aware of the PRESENT. I do feel it sometimes, but I think that it is time for even more self care mentally and physically so that I can get MYSELF out of this constant deer-in-the-headlights approach to so much of my life right now.

So with that said, off I go to get INVOLVED in my day!

BS, did I say how much I love to read your updates?! It makes me happy to see that you two are getting such a great R, and it makes me so much hopeful!!



Is so great that you have such support right now. When we talked to our pastor, he just said I needed to foget and forgive. I know he ment well, but is not prepared to handle this kind of situations.

The cast analogy is so great. I'm a very visual person, the image I'm seing right now is sooooo funny!! thanks for the laugh!



I can tell you how I feel about hubby dropping out of college. He is 34, he worked so hard to get his GED, once he got it and we came to Mexico he was ready for college. But the mexican university did not accept the GED, so he had to wait one more year and take one more exam. He finally made it to college.

Needless to say I feel so sad he had to drop college. He didn't beep either when I asked him to drop college cold turkey. I know it makes him increadibely sad, but nevertheless is what is best for our M.

Chains are just chains, your hubby can definetely wait to get new ones later. He can not wait to get a better M.

I have lurked on this forum for a while and recently registered.

I wanted to write you a post of encouragement, Blindsighted, from the perspective of a Christian husband more than a decade past the trauma of my wife's adultery. There's a necklace in our past, too, and, for whatever it's worth, I feel prompted to share with you.

My wife had a necklace that I had given her, very early in our marriage. And, just like you, one day it hit me with brute force. I asked, "Did you wear that with him?"

And she realized my horror and whispered, "I, I almost never take it off."

I asked her for it, and she gave it without question. And I got rid of it. But I bought her a new one, one just like it, and surprised her with it. And she received it with genuine gratitude and wears it nearly all the time now without triggering painful memories for either of us.

I know MB might counsel that you leave the past in the past after granting forgiveness. In my own case, I believe if your spouse is contrite, there is no shame in asking him to remove this trigger from his neck, regardless of his sentimental attachments to it. If it grieves you to imagine it possibly touching his partner's flesh, it might always stand between your complete healing.

If his heart is truly repentant, then YOU should be his most precious jewelry. You gave yourself to him as a gift, and he threw you away, then asked YOU to pay an unimaginably painful price once he wanted your forgiveness. I only had to forgive an affair of a few months- and, but for God's grace, I could not have borne it. You are having to forgive 13 years(!)- truly, your forgiveness and restoration of your marriage is utterly priceless, BlindSighted!

And if he truly understands that, if he truly knows just how strong YOU have had to be to endure HIS weakness and sinfulness, he will do whatever it takes to keep the price YOU have to pay from being any higher.

I'm sorry this was so long- but in closing, I am praying for you both. For you, continued strength in what is surely one of the greatest trials any human must endure. For him, I pray for deepening conviction and empathy, such that he will never stray again, and will see how beautiful and costly your forgiveness truly is.

You both have a hard climb ahead, and only God knows if you both have the strength to endure it, but I pray that you will.

I'm so glad that the cast thing gave you a chuckle.

Yes, I know that we are incredibly fortunate that Pastor is so supportive. I'm sorry Alada that your Pastor wasn't equipped to handle providing much help for you and your H.

How about if I do my best to share little snippets from our meetings with Pastor each week?

Another one that he gave us is growing a garden together:

It's all PoJA. First you have to agree on how to clear the land (the "land" needs cleared after an A). Then you have conflicts on where to put the new garden, whether to use a tiller or a hoe, to have a raised bed or not, how you'll plan irrigation, whether to use fertilizer or go natural, what plants to choose and where to put them. So many decisions to make before you even start the real work!

THEN you finally work together to get that garden in and wait for the rain to nourish it and allow the roots to take a sturdy hold. THEN comes the weeding and hoeing as the sun beats down on you.

Finally a tomato appears, and the two of you watch and watch as it grows and begins to turn red. You go out together one morning to finally pick that fruit, and what do you find? A deer has trampled it.

Does that mean that the whole garden is ruined? No, but it means that you still have to wait a bit longer as you wait for the next fruit to ripen in order to finally enjoy it. It's disheartening to take two steps back and one forward, but as long as you continue to tend that garden, you'll eventually have so much fruit to enjoy that all of your hard work and trials will be but a memory.

Thank you so very much for sharing that with me Alada. It really helped me to put it into perspective.

I remember from your thread that he stayed home for a while after D-Day, correct? Can he eventually attend another college? Perhaps online courses?

Thank you HoseaJones, for taking the time to post and share your own necklace story. I had alligator tears at how beautifully you described the second chance that we give to our spouses. Thank you. I appreciate your prayers.

Lovely analogy. Having grown a garden, only to have it eaten by deer, I can certainly relate to this one.

Thanks for sharing

Good morning all, just wanted to give an update. We are still meeting with Pastor every week and have switched gears a bit now to focus on starting to build the details of our future together so that our new M may be built on a rock solid foundation.

I'm not exactly feeling like going there yet, but I'm not feeling against it either. I have been operating from a head perspective rather than a heart perspective for so many months now, I am willing to try moving forward to see how it may pan out.

My old H isn't back folks. The old H was NEVER, not once, not EVER in 33 years this dedicated and attentive and affectionate. Nor was he ever in his life more focused on doing the right things, praying for answers, trying to lead our family including our adult daughters.

And he's not finished yet! Because he can't be�.I'm still not passionately back in love with him! But I am taking notice. And for that matter, I am becoming a whole different person, and I'm not finished yet either.

Unfortunately for both of us, H's attentiveness is still not getting all of the way through to me. Pastor says that it will, in fact this week Pastor went so far as to tell us that he predicts that within another 3-4 weeks, we will BOTH be feeling some passion again. That was so hopeful for us!

It took me many months to get to the point where I liked my H again. I didn't even realize I was in love with him until Dr. Harley responded to a question I asked on the private forum. I thought to myself, "Really? I'm in love? Hmmmm..." But the Love Bank Questionnaire is based on numbers and the numbers don't lie.

It will take a consistent effort on your H's part to meet your needs and eliminate his love busters for you to start to believe it. Dr. Harley says trust usually returns in about two years. As you well know by now, it's not blind trust. It's trusting that your spouse has your back.

We're three-plus years into it, and, like you, the old pre-A H has not returned. It's as though I am married to a different man! It's as though I'm in a brand new marriage. It seems to me that although I was in love with my H according the Questionnaire, I didn't really FEEL like I was in love, passionately in love, until well after the two-year mark. Recovery is a journey and it takes time and lots of effort. The effort is the changing of old marriage-wrecking habits into new marriage-building habits. Once the new habits are formed, it really does seem to become effortless.

Just keep moving in the right direction. Your heart will eventually follow your head.

How are your daughters viewing their "new" father and his efforts to rebuild your marriage and family? It will take them a while to accept the new reality as well.

You have done a marvelous job of logically following each step. I'm so impressed!

Wow, is so nice to hear a deadline. It probably makes you both happy and uneasy to hear about the 2-3weeks time frame. But we are all rooting for you two!


That is so nice to hear!! Good job MrBlindSighted2013!



Don't worry LB$ deposits are not conscious, so even if you feel they are not getting through you they are. You are recognizing them already! Little by little you will get to the passion treshhold!

thanks for sharing!

Blindsighted, I'm happy for you, and a bit envious lol.

Whatever you are doing is working. Good job

Thank you LWFH, I read that and thought "logical"? Me? But yes I guess that I have been thinking from that perspective much more these days. Wow.

I am sooooo relieved to hear from you that your old H has never returned! I know that my old H can never return if we are to stay together. Somehow I knew this on D-Day. The things that used to bother me about him just aren't an option now. I used to have unconditional love. I'm pretty sure that ended on D-Day.

I think that our daughters (29 and 26) dealing with this may be a long road. We know that they do speak with each other about it.

We do mention the things that we do for RC, and the things that H is helping me with for my work, and the things that we are DOing for recovery. We just don't go to the past unless they bring it up. H and our eldest daughter are going to spend a Daddy Daughter day together again tomorrow.

True Alada! I had forgotten about that. Thank you for the reminder, and the pep talk. I am taking that to heart.

I don't know that we have a deadline for feeling passion. The Pastor just boosted us up a bit this week by pointing out how we are getting so much right and solving conflicts better, and so he felt that I would feel some sparks again very soon. We both hope so!

Awe Rocketqueen, thank you for checking up on me and rooting for us. I appreciate it.

We all know that this is not a straight line to the top. We're going to go steps forward and steps back.

You and Kiss are always in my prayers Rocketqueen.

Copying this from my post on WD's thread because it caused a bit of an epiphany for me (me-thinks).

I would LOVE it if we could have a discussion on this feelings/facts thing. Or should I say emotions versus logic?

Other recovering M's have to be experiencing the same thing, so maybe it would help us all.

Feelings are not Facts. BS Affair-Busting 101, right? And definitely Recovery 101 since we BS's have to operate with a negative LB balance for a while.

As you've all no doubt noticed from my posts, I'm a rather emotional person (haha, yep, I really am). I'm artsy and I love poetry and music and all of the things that trigger emotions.

An interesting realization is that once I really GOT it that I had to bust up the A, in other words when you guys all shocked me silly into realization that I had to pony up and become Miss Logic, then I did.

A couple of weeks ago, I could say that I was starting to feel those dribbles of sparks for H again. It was hopeful. But then I started feeling EMOTIONS again, TRIGGER (!!!) and bam�I tripped over myself going back to my shell pronto. I did not realize this until that post on WD's thread this morning.

So just HOW do we BS's ever EVER take that first step to risk feelings again? How do we even explore having feelings without it triggering mind tapes of what they did?

In case the answer lies in need-meeting: H is still off of (my) mark with IC and affection, but we are working on it. I'm the first to say that as fast as he does hit the target, the target seems to change.

So how do we LOGICALLY let ourselves begin to feel EMOTIONS for our spouse?

I don't know if this is what you're looking for.
Locus of control - Self control - Loss of control

Well, for me, I have been encouraged to write down something positive each day. I've noticed that I tend to write down factual things. Like, my W is spending time with me this evening, or my W is talking to our coach this morning, or whatever it is that I see as a positive thing towards healing our marriage and making it better.

It's so easy to get caught up in all of the things that are going wrong, that I tend to ignore all of the things that are going right. There are lots of positives if I take the time to look around and reflect on them.

But like anything else, it takes practice to make it a habit, so by making time each day to write these little positives down, I'm training my brain to notice them.

It does seem to help. Just my two cents on something that seems to have a positive impact for me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes I am feeling one thing, for example:

She doesn't care about this marriage at all = FEELING

But if I take the time to look at the positives (facts), for example:

Here are the positive things she is doing that show she does care = FACTS

Sometimes I find that my feelings betray the facts so to speak. Things might not be 100% OK, but it's not nearly as bad as I think it is.

but I think that feelings, even when they are not facts, are expressing our EN's

In the LB book, Dr. H. says that we should keep triyng to change SD into respectful requests, even a SD is expressing our need. I think the solution is not to be quiet about a need or a feeling but rather to educate our expression.

WOW, so much great stuff in that thread, thanks BrainHurts. Yes, I had seen it before, but it speaks to me now.

Okay, so internal locus of control versus external. I think that I will need to read this over (and over) again and pay attention to my own self talk.

For now, let's take one thought�I'm being honest here, so please don't beat me up for being too internal/external.

External ---> It's a beautiful day outside and I would love to go out and sit in it. Too bad that H buried us in debt so that I can NEVER stop working any waking moment. I would have really enjoyed sitting in the sun.

Internal ---> It sure is gorgeous outside! I'm grateful that my friends on MB shed some insight into the emotion/logic thing. I think that I am going to lay it to rest for a moment now so that I can finish my work and go sit outside while this sun is still so nice and warm.

Anatomy of Peace sounds like a great read!

Yes Alada, you're right about us needing to be aware of our thoughts so that we can ask for what we need. Educate our expression�care to elaborate?

oh yes, FTF, I totally agree with you. As a BS (well both spouses really), it is our job to focus on the facts. Wasn't there a bunch of references in other posts to how "feelings follow facts"? Or am I confusing issues here (could be).

Feelings betraying the facts, huh? Hmmmm�good points. All of them. This one hits home for me though.

In order to have romantic love, we have to have our most important ENs met with no LB. In order to have our ENs met, we have to allow ourselves to be vulnerable. It means risking our feelings.

As you and your H make your marriage a safe place and you learn to meet each other's needs and avoid love busters, your feelings will follow the actions.

I didn't want to risk my feelings either. I wanted to protect myself, but that meant I wouldn't be able to accept affection from my H. It meant that I would not share intimate conversation with him. My conversations with him would need to remain relatively superficial in order to be "safe."

Little by little I had to force myself out of the feeling of wanting to protect myself from being hurt. Every day my H met my ENs and avoided love busters, my feelings of hurt and pain dissipated, little by little. Finally I didn't hate him anymore, then we went to feelings of, "Wow, actually he's quite different from the way he used to be." Then one day, when I was filling out the monthly Love Bank inventory form, I realized from the way I was filling out my answers that I was in love with him. It took many months to get there, but eventually I could say "I love you."

But the reason I began to feel in love with my H was because he was meeting my ENs and avoiding love busters. Romantic love is the way we feel when someone is meeting our most important ENs. A bit at a time, persistently and consistently, and one day, your love bank threshold is overflowing.

Yes, exactly this!

And for us, it took time and patience. At first, it all felt forced and clinical. But, eventually the feelings followed the actions.

AM

thank you armymama and LWFH, thank you again for sharing your experiences with me.

Yes, LWFH, I do see that I am protecting myself from feeling hurt. What happens is that when I notice that I am feeling pleasant, those "what they did" mind tapes pop back into my mind, and I bet that it would glow on a brain scan if someone saw how fast I go from a flash of anger to sadness to protection mode. I get a physical headache from fighting it.

So my feelings are betraying PRESENT facts. Present facts are that H is constantly adjusting to the (moving) target of what I need.

H has become hyper-alert for cutting off triggers at the pass. For instance, yesterday on the way into the grocery store, he was squinting to read a sale sign. There was a woman standing right under that sign smoking a cigarette. H knew right away to explain to me that the sale item was on our grocery list and that he was looking at the sign and not the woman. Then he followed up straight away with a bear hug and re-assurance that he wants no one but me. That DOES help me to diffuse those icky feelings.

So the present facts ARE okay, and yet my mind is still flashing back whenever I feel peaceful. I am going to keep re-reading the internal locus info. I need to somehow re-frame my own stuff.

Tomorrow actually is the one year anniversary of when I started snooping and tailing my H, and it's three weeks from the one year anniversary of D-Day. I NEVER thought that I would still be married one year later, so I want to find a way to focus on the hope, rather than on the ick.

I didn't really feel completely recovered until about two and a half years. It took me a long while to believe that what my H was NOW doing was real and not going to change. I was in love with him long before the 2.5 years, but it took about that long to not feel that awful sadness and resentment. Throughout those first couple of years post D-Day, especially the first year and a half, I had to constantly remind myself, "What is he doing NOW?" My thoughts would go back very frequently, just like yours. I'd get angry, then sad, feel haunted.

You and your H seem to be doing all the steps. Just keep reminding yourself over and over again, "But what is he doing NOW?"

...and, of course, he has to keep doing those very things that make you feel loved and safe....

I (we) have had some tough times lately. The quick "reason" is that I think that after all of the fall-out from the FR and then the bar being almost unattainable now, I just haven't been able to feel love for my H no matter how high he reaches or how much he keeps swinging at the (moving) target.

I have tried to make a post many times here, but what do I say? H is doing everything right and I am miserable? I've spoken of it before, but I figure that it will just take time to build the LB back up (we've been consistently except for two weeks in March getting 25 plus hours per week of UA time).

But today.

Oh my.

Today.

I think that it will take me a while to process this.

May 25, 2014. H blew me over.

I chose to go to a wedding shower of our much beloved niece. For those of you who have followed my thread, this niece is the daughter of my amazing brother, who sometimes single-handedly saved our M in spite of my ranting to him (constantly) that I wanted to chuck it all.

Awkward situation at the shower because we knew that our niece's mother would be there. She also had a LT affair on my brother and left the family for the OM on my nephew's b-day.

My H and I POJA'd and agreed that I wouldn't go for the entire shower. Just show up half way through and try to honor our beautiful niece. It was outside held at a park pavillion. H went with me and we had agreed that he would wait in the background to rescue if needed. WELL�.when we got there, a hush fell over the crowd, and so things changed�.

H grabbed my arm and walked in with me. Right there, on the spot. Heads held high. OH MY. First home run of the day.

Our niece jumped right up and came to welcome us both. I was enjoying sharing her day but THEN H saw trouble-a-coming. And he suddenly pulled me to him. Someone had come up behind him and tried to hug ONLY HIM. He pulled me THAT FAST and she was forced to hug us both, hehehehe.

This was SOOOOOOO not my H for our entire marriage. He always used to be a people pleaser. Nope. He grabbed me and it was awkward but I'll tell ya what�.that woman ran right off without a word. She really did stop mid-sentence and ran back to her table.

H USED to be dependable. Anyone who knew him (she did), knew that they could play him and dishonor me willingly. I really can't believe myself that I missed it for years. But it DOESN'T MATTER NOW because that is the past. He's not like that now. NOPE. NOT ANY MORE!!!!!!

MAJOR LB DEPOSITS!

And just to cap off the whole day, my Dad came to visit tonight and Dad had heard about what had happened, so I went big with it and played it to the nth degree so that I could show H some admiration. Dad was a bit uncomfortable because he also doesn't like to stir emotions�and my own H stood up and said to my Dad that it was WRONG what they tried to do to me, and that he will spend the rest of his life protecting me.

OH MY GOSH. THANK YOU to all of you who ever posted on my or H's (brief) thread. H is pulling the load consistently with NO reward from me, since I just haven't felt it before now. I don't know if I will always feel this great from here on out, but MAN HAS IT BEEN A LONG ROAD so far, and so I wanted to post this right away before I forget any of the details.

Beautiful!

Nice!!!!

Please extend my warmest good job to your H, because my dear friend you deserve to be treated as a Queen!!!

Thanks all!

H made it even better last night after I was finished posting here. He looked at me and said "maybe now the word will get around that we are setting up boundaries".

Well �. YEP!

I am so very grateful for the hope that I am feeling today.

It is wonderful when MB is understood and applied. It makes marriage into a beautiful thing.

I'm still sadly withdrawing myself from the warm cushy feelings�BUT�they are getting through lately in spite of my best efforts.

I'll have that warm spark and then logically stop myself. And then later I'll notice that the emotional part of me is still feeling good. So we are HOPING that it won't be long now before I really feel that I am back in love.

H was feeling totally useless working with me. So two months ago we POJA'd him getting another job. With all sorts of parameters that we'd be okay with�kind of tough to say to an employer I can't do this, I can't go here, I have to take time off whenever my wife and I need to do something (my doc appointments), etc. etc.

But we threw it out there and we prayed multiple times per day�and H found out today (the 4th!) that he got a job within our parameters! He starts on Monday. Thank you God!

The REALLY great thing that I want to share is that two weeks ago, H was simply mentally devastated at seeing the overall destruction, that round and round mental torture when you SEE what you have caused...and he said to me, "maybe God just thinks that we aren't ready for me to have another job yet". AWE, yeah I agreed, that must be it�but H was totally humble and willing to accept God's will.

Then this past week when we met with Pastor, *I* brought up how this is really causing him depression and hurting our recovery�and pastor pointed out Matthew 6:28-34, which ironically we had JUST gone over ourselves, but anyway, we started praying together and asking specifically for the perfect job.

Not sure if this will be the perfect job, but we trust God, and we are open to it. So he starts on Monday.

When he got the call, I was standing right next to him and signaling him yes, take it. He got off the phone and said to me that he hopes that we are strong enough and ready for this. AHHHHHH, wonderful!

4th of July USED to be our own personal entertainment holiday. Everyone, family and friends, came here. Not any more. We are enjoying a delightful quiet holiday today, just the two of us, so that I don't trigger�and you know what? It is the BEST EVER!

Congratulations on the job offer for your H. I pray it works out well for both of you.

As time moves on and he eventually deposits enough love units in your love bank, he will probably start to feel, oh, I don't know, BETTER isn't the word I'm looking for, but less terrible about what he did. Just Compensation is a beautiful thing. On the one hand, the victim is paid back generously. But on the other, the perpetrator GETS to pay back and earn the victim's trust and love.

We never talk about the A; we don't ever even bring up the bad non-affair times in our past, per Dr. Harley's recommendations on leaving the ugly past in the past. Still, every so often, once or twice a year, my H will tell me he feels so sad about the time he wasted all those years being a "crappy husband," when all that time, it could have been the way it is now. I always tell him, "You're a wonderful H now. I'm glad I stayed." That's the end of that conversation.

I'm very happy to hear that the "wows" are still happening for you. I think it took me about six months to fall in love with my H again (per the love bank questionnaire from the online monitoring - I certainly couldn't tell myself!) but it took the full two years and a bit more to actually believe he had my back and to trust he wasn't going to change back to his old self.

Can you ensure that your H is completely and fully transparent and accountable at this new job?

Yes I think so, LWFH. I'll detail what we have been doing. Of course, if you notice any leaks, please let me know.

He doesn't use cash any more, so no throwaway phone. He will be working with two other men, no customers on site. I've got all of the snooping stuff still, plus a new thing from the Op Inv forum here. And we had a little test run where he rehabbed a house for the last two months. When that sells, he plans to use it to pay off as much of his A debt as he can.

He showed himself not only trustworthy but grateful for the opportunity to go out of his way to make me feel secure. He texts me at least 20 times per day, every day. He shows me that he appreciates when I show up un-announced. He always helps me with my work. When something breaks here at home, he either rushes to fix it himself or have it taken care of. He is always coming up with ideas to make me feel more secure. If it triggers me at all, it's outta here. He never did any of this before.

I cannot bear to have ANY triggers, and it causes us trouble when we are around our kids or family/friends. No one does it to be mean, but they keep referring to our LIVES�how our 4th parties are so missed, how I made a mean appetizer for Christmas, the trips we used to take nieces and nephews on, blah, blah, blah. I can't think of that stuff now, and I'm not sure if I ever will be able to again. H and I POJA each thing and generally seem to tick off someone because we aren't participating in things with them.

But like H said so well, we are finally taking our M first and making a great example for anyone wishing to truly observe.

We are sharing hopes and dreams again finally, and I think that is the biggest thing helping me now. We are starting to focus on the future again. OUR future. We both realize, especially during conflict, that we are learning to (finally) truly put the other guy first because we want to live an interdependent life. We aren't sacrificing any more�we are learning extraordinary care.

That said, we still have a long long way to go. There were so many layers, LWFH, and we had SO much wrong in our M for our whole lives�there are things that bothered us both that we did not ever even realize until now. Much of our lives right now is still made up of POJAs. It makes for interesting dates.

Today we are going to have a big date and I am looking forward to it! We are going to a thrift shop and then bike riding at a park, then dinner and then home. I especially love dates that encompass everything.

H is off for the day.

We got up together this am, and he still helped with the dogs and kept giving me hugs and reminding me that he will still be "with me" all day.

On the way out the door, he looked back and said "just remember, now we have the third strand (God) in our marriage".

He called while driving to work, and texted when he got there, and has already texted twice in the last 1/2 hour.

This isn't "his" job�it's almost "our" job now, because we have to coordinate and work together on giving extraordinary care�.or else I just simply cannot do it. We do realize that, and so our plan is to ramp up our O&H even more than we have achieved thus far. We are now trying to say our thoughts out loud (interesting exercise!!!). Plus, I'm taking extra care to complain about any little thing that bothers me right now (even more than before).

Blindsighted this is so good yo hear!! Thanks for sharing

Well it has been two weeks since H has gone back to work, so far so good. I won't lie and say that it has been easy for me (or him).

I won't rest on snooping, but honestly guys it is getting b-o-r-i-n-g lately. I went back to checking things every day after he started the new job, and that's probably why it is tougher for me now, but I will keep it up.

The first week was tough because of all of his texts/calls. I had a very difficult time switching from "work" mode to "wife" mode when he called. We have been together face-to-face for so long now (9 months since last D-day), and I got used to him seeing when I was in the middle of work and waiting until I was off of the phone to talk. Our M is the most important thing though�so whenever he called, I told the customer that I would call them back.

This past weekend, we had our niece's wedding. H took the initiative and we practiced what to say or do "if" scenarios. Most of what we were afraid of never happened. The woman who tried to jump on H at the shower didn't show for the wedding. H never left my side, and we did enjoy the evening very much. Only hard spot that I had was during the wedding dance, but H got up with me and we walked all of the way away from the wedding party and out to the road so that I couldn't hear the music lol.

The trouble that I am having these days is that I cannot ever think of the past, DUH, I know that. But I'll think that I am doing great and then BAM a kid, relative, or friend, brings up something from the past, and I get a hot flash. That's kind of my signal that I have to change my thoughts FAST or else I will get a horrible headache/earache (I've never had headaches before this).

H is helping me with this in a way that I like. FINALLY. Until these last two weeks, he missed the mark (I think because I didn't know what I needed). I now realize that I need him to talk, talk, talk about our future plans! That gets me off of that spiral, and I'm already getting better at thinking of future plans on my own without his reminder. WONDERFUL really, because you guys will not be surprised to hear that never in our whole marriage had we ever made future plans together.

I still have to work on asking for "better" IC. I don't really know how to ask, because he is trying�he listens and ask questions, but then when I answer he seems to mirror back what I've said to him. Then it is difficult for me to want to offer more info, kwim? I'll find a way to ask specifically for what I need, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm grateful.

Looks like recovery to me.

In the early days, our conversation centered around the weather and the dog. It took time. But, the more UA time we had, the better it got.

AM

THANKS armymama, your support (and everyones!) has meant the world to me!

Speaking of dogs�hehehe

My precious 16 yo yorkie-poo Ginger passed on March 12th of this past year after dealing with heart failure for the last five years. Talk about triggers�but we won't go there now.

The last two days of her life, Ginger had lost so much weight that she couldn't sleep in bed with us any more (she would burrow under the covers and then not be able to get herself out, she whittled away to only 3.5 pounds and I couldn't risk suffocation). H made a homemade wooden bed for her next to ours and she slept there totally sound for the last two nights.

But on March 12th, I knew that it had to be over. At the last minute, H offered to stay in the room and hold her when she passed, so that I did not have to see it (which I took him up on).

With my having a work at home job, the house was mighty QUIET since March. My friends and family suggested another dog, but no way could I envision having any dog "in Ginger's place" yet. It wouldn't have been fair to the new dog either, because they couldn't be Ginger.

Fast forward to the middle of June, and my persistent cousin kept sending me photos of rescue dogs available. Well, one caught my heart. I stared at that pic for two days before bringing it up to H. He and I POJA'd and were in enthusiastic agreement to apply for adoption.

We applied. An auto reply told us that they received our app and would get back to us if we were a fit. I prayed but then put her out of my mind. Thursday June 27th I got a call letting me know that they were verifying our info for pending adoption! I had given them our heart vet's number, local vet's number, neighbor's number, groomer's number, and would you believe that they DID call them to verify? IMPRESSIVE!

Friday morn the 28th, I got the call that she was on her way up from the south to US! Where could we meet the transport? OH MY GOSH.

By Monday she was HERE in our home. Poor girl, extreme attachment disorder. God brought her to me, both H and I swear it. Our friends have already asked who is rescuing who?

She is 8 months old and she knows stay, sit, we're working on come. She already scratches at the door to go out (usually!). She leads correctly too..but not so great when she is out in the yard with our border collie and aussie.

We have an underground fence for the big dogs, but I am not so keen on using that with her (she is 8 pounds). I am working as fast as I can to teach her the commands so that she will listen when with H's dogs.

They all do play together. H throws the ball for the border collie about two hours per day (have to "employ" that breed), and this little girl is right there playing with the big boys lol.

Anyway�here she is!