Ugh. This is so hard. His schedule was to be with his dad from Friday evening until Sat evening and then again Sunday afternoon. He got upset with his dad Saturday about noon and begged to come home. At first XH said no he couldn't come....then he said he could. So we picked him up at around 1 or so. Today he woke up begging to not have to go with his dad. We went to services and then when we got home he called his dad and begged to not have to go this afternoon.

It was pretty bad. We got to XH's house and ds refused to get out of the car....XH threatened to whip him, took away his Itouch, threatened to call the Sheriff....ds began to sob and cry...ugh. Eventually I was able to convince ds that his dad was not going to give in and that things were only going to get worse. I tried to stay out of it and let XH deal with it....but it was getting horrible. Ds finally gets out of the car and goes in.

About 30 minutes after I left, Ds called me from under his bed at his dad's...crying...saying he wants me. I told him to get up and go outside and enjoy the sunshine and maybe watch some tv....and that he would be ok...that he was only making it hard on himself.

He also told me earlier that he didn't want OW and her son coming over..I told him he should tell his dad that.

XH is treating son much the way he always treated me. Bullying, threatening, name calling, belittling.

This is very hard to watch....very hard line to walk to encourage him to respect his father while not dismissing the very real problems XH has in dealing with ds.

Oh Smiling, I know this pain but as a grandparent. My granddaughter (7) has started to cry and cry when her dad comes to pick her up for visitation. It's heartbreaking to know there is nothing you can do about it. I think you handled it the best way you could. There's nothing you can do about it except teach DS that life is not always getting what you want and to try and make the best of things. Now, if your EXH is abusing DS, that's a whole nother thing.

While I was driving home I called my mom and told her all about it....she can't hardly take it....esp knowing all the ways XH treated me and how we both see the pattern of him starting in on ds now.

I don't think Ds is in physical danger. It is more of a psychological danger. So hard to explain how XH is...but here is ds's version of what happened yesterday.

He and his dad were playing Legos and his dad wanted one of ds's people. Ds didn't want to give it up....XH got mad and told ds he is selfish...and then told him he was going to get an ice cream sandwich from the kitchen and ds couldn't have one. Then he proceeds to eat it in front of ds and say, 'yum, this is good, too bad you can't have one.' Then ds got upset and went into his room and hid under the bed (drama)...XH goes in and tells ds 'you are being so immature.' Then after he agrees to let ds come home he tells ds, 'when you are at services in the morning, you be sure and remember how you acted today--how selfish you were.'

Ds was crushed by all of that. He said his dad was calling him names and making fun of him. XH gets on the phone to tell me, 'he is going to tell you that I called him names but I didn't...I told him he was acting selfish.'

And then today during the time we sat in the car in XH's driveway ds was crying and telling me he was afraid of his dad. I told him to just go to his room and hang out..he said his dad wouldn't allow it....would tell him he is being rude for not being in the living room with XH. And that he got in trouble for going into his room to escape OW's 6 year old son. I asked XH if that was true and he said no...ds speaks up and says, 'yes it its!!' XH glares at ds and says, in a very belittling voice, 'fine! go hide in your room under the bed, I don't care what you do.'

Does that translate? I just know X so well, and that is how he treats people when they don't respond to him or situations the way HE wants.

How long has your dgd been having to go to visitation? Why do you think she doesn't want to go now? Ds has been going for over 18 months and most of the time he doesn't mind....but I think he gets REALLY mad when his dad has no regard for what is going on in ds's life---

SW, the problem here is that your X is psychologically abusing your son. Yes, it's abuse. No, there's not much you can do about it.

Talk to your lawyer about the situation. He may be able to help you get supervised visitation or get at least get it reduced. Also, you need to ask your lawyer what would happen if you took your son for visitation and he refused to get out of the car. It will happen some day.

Eventually, your son will get too big for his father to pick on him. Some day, he'll be old enough to decide who he wants to see, and he'll never see his father again.

My 23yo dd has not seen or talked to her father in nearly a year. She stopped seeing him a few months after we separated. My second dd stopped seeing him back in October after the way he treated her for her birthday.

I don't get these guys who treat their kids this way. I can understand the kid not wanting to go. It is confusing to them. But, the dad can make it soooooo much easier just by helping the kid adjust through it. Why have to be a butt?

XH sounds like a bully. He gets his rocks off by trying to dominate others. Those type of guys are such cowards most of the time.

He is a bully. He always has been. I am a very strong personality and he was still able to beat me down until I was not a doormat but changed nonetheless. I hate to see that happen to my son...thankfully ds only has to spend about 78 hours a month with him.

I am not sure he gets off---I think he is just an idiot and doesn't know how to treat anyone.

Yesterday when ds began crying, XH looked into the car and with distain on his face said, 'oh he is going to start crying now.'

And (with XH out of earshot--he kept walking away and then coming back to the car) I told ds, 'if you are upset, call me anytime. Your dad HAS to let you call me anytime you want.' He said, 'If I ask to call you he will call me a momma's boys.'

I know it is true. I know because I have a long history with that man. I hate him.

Yeah... your XH is definitely a piece of work. Understatement of the century really. I'm kind of curious about something that you may not be able to answer. Does your XH legitimately want to see your son or is he taking him at his court appointed times to hurt you? It doesn't seem like he has a real interest to be a father unless I'm missing something (he calls and talks to him when he's with you, makes it to his sporting events, takes part in school activities, etc).

Travis

I do believe in his weird way he loves our son. However, it FEELS like he has kept up visitation MOSTLY to keep contact with me AND/OR to impreess homewrecker. He knows what is socially expected of a divorced father and he tries to keep that up.

He does not call ds when ds is with me. He was out shopping the other day (I am almost POSITIVE he was with homewrecker and her son) and he called me asking what size jeans and shirt ds wears. (not bothering to ask if ds actually NEEDED jeans or shirts--but I just answered his question--didn't try to educate him). Then he sent me a text with a picture of the two sets of jeans/shirt he bought ds.

Ds was in swim until this past month---we are taking a few months off---and XH rarely showed up to watch him swim...Swim from 4-5 and he gets off work at 5 30 minutes away...but he could take off once in a while to watch ds....

XH NEVER asks me one single thing about ds's schooling. Ever. Even though XH claims to be against me homeschooling our son. ONE time I sent a half hour of school work for ds to finish at his dad's house and it never even came out of the folder. When I mentioned it to XH he said hatefully, 'You want to homeschool then you get it done on your time.' So that was the last time I did that. I foolishly thought he might like to see what ds is working on and interact with him on that a bit.

The thing is.....he was not involved in our life when we were married and now he has no life with ds. They see a movie, go out to eat, have homewrecker over, and that is about it. Twice in the summer he took him to the lake with some friends of XH's that ds had never met. It isn't ds's life---we have friends, our religion, our congregation, family, activities, a schedule. Going to his dad's is fine if there is some fun thing to do..but ds doesn't really want to hang out with his dad either.

I don't know. I am rambling. He punished ds yesterday for his 'rudeness' by taking away his Itouch for 2 weeks. We had agreed to carrying restrictions from house to house, so I feel I need to honor that, but I hate him...and if this kind of thing continues, I will tell him that deal is off....I am not going to restrict my son for this type of thing.

Calling our son 'immature'. My dh said, 'hello!!! He is 10.'

Listen to your dh.

You need to end the deal of carrying over restrictions between houses immediately. I, personally, wouldn't bother to tell him that it has changed. I would explain to my son that I am not following through with punishments that I don't feel are warranted and leave it at that.

If XH isn't willing to do his part for homeschooling (a legitimate thing), you certainly don't need to help him punish your son this time (which isn't legitimate based on your description).

Guys like that make me sick. He mistreats his kid and then expects the kid to apologize to him. He's JUST LIKE my husband. We call him "Himself" because that's the only person he cares about.

I'm so sorry you're living this life. If I had divorced my WstbXH when the kids were younger that's what it would have been like.

If it helps, I suspect that your Xh will stop seeing your son as he gets older. He only sees him because he's showing off for homewrecker and annoying you. After RunnerSlut dumped my WstbXH, he stopped even ASKING to see the kids.

Your XH is a very sick man. Please do a Google search for "Narcissistic Parent".

He will continue to abuse your son the way he abused you. Please do that search because you need to understand what you are dealing with, but be prepared to be shocked. NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) parents and spouses do tremendous damage. Please look into this and see if you can get a good child psychologist to say your son should not be subjected to this ever again. It may help with this courts and maybe you can get the visitation changed.

I want to thank you all for validating my feelings about this.

I know my son was rude to his father...he hung up on him when his dad said he had to come...then later I heard him leave his dad a growling message that said, 'I don't want to go!!' On the way to his dads we had this conversation
SW: Son you are to be respectful to your father.
DS: He doesn't deserve it!
SW: I don't recall the Bible saying we are only to be respectful when our parents deserve it. It says honor your father and your mother and that includes being respectful. You may tell him how you feel and what you would like to happen, but you are not to be rude and hang up on him like you did.
DS: Glaring silence.

I let it soak in a bit...then said,

SW: And son this is for YOUR benefit. Because it is what God requires of you and you have to do what God requires.

I have read A LOT about NPD and BPD. I can tell you that his mom hits the NPD characteristics 10 for 10 DEAD ON. I haven't read it with XH in mind in many years....think I will so, as Mulan says I can know what I am dealing with.

So what your saying is your ex is a Disney dad without the Disney.

At what age is your son able to make up his mind about going to his dads?

Make sure you document your ex's treatment of your son, just in case it comes up in court.

Your ex is the perfect example of the Cat's in the Cradle song.

NPD, the successor to Bipolar as mental condition of the year. Why do people have to always come up with a disease or condition to explain someone's behavior? Some people are just walking talking rectums - why can't we leave it at that?

I almost wonder if your husband is one of those men who feel that they have to toughen up a kid, make him a man, etc. These people are not usually much of a man themselves and put on the tough act to disguise their weakness. What they don't realize that they're doing is driving away their child, making an enemy by tearing down instead of building up.

I would try to talk to your XH (out of hearing of your son) and just ask him why he is this way with your son, and let him know that his actions are having the opposite effect of what he may intend. That sissy, baby, and momma's boy are not going to draw him closer to his son. If he doesn't want to listen or turns it into a fight, then I would consider legal action and perhaps a social worker evaluation of your son, let him tell his story, and perhaps the court could mandate counseling for your XH as a condition of visitation.

SmilingWoman, here is a very interesting MB thread dealing with narcissism:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2336925&page=1

NPD comes up around here often because narcissists are prime candidates to become adulterers. NPD is not a "disease"; it's really just a fancy word for Attention Addict. You are dealing with the equivalent of a crackhead, not someone who is mentally ill (though his behaviour is completely sick, as is the behaviour of any other addict).

It's easier to deal with something if you understand what it really is.

SW, why don't you give the lawyer who rep'd you in the D a call and get his opinion on what can be done? At least get a legal opinion on your rights in NOT being held in contempt if the kid just won't go. I found precedent in CA where an 11yo was able to decide to forgo visitation.

If things continue like the last two visits I will have to get a consult....however, my big problem is that ds sometimes DOES want to go. I think at this point it might just look like ds is being a bratty almost 11 year old....wanting to come home when he didn't get his way and/or not wanting to go to his dad's when something more fun was going on at home (his step brothers were here and we were making cookies).

I know it is more than that though. I know enough time has passed since the initial seperation and then divorce that XH can't keep up the front he started at the beginning.

XH VERY much believes boys need to be 'tough'....and just for the record ds is no little sissy. He is rough and tumble, romping and playing all the time. XH knows NOTHING about childhood development but thinks he is qualified to say that ds is 'immature'. He isn't. He is very typical for his age....and that includes sometimes he cries and sometimes he wants his mom.

I half way WANTED the sheriff called yesterday as I sat in the driveway of XH with ds sobbing 'please don't make me.' The sheriff might have made ds get out of the car, but XH would have had to insist. And the fact that XH even knew to call the Sheriff indicates homewrecker is telling him his 'rights'. He sang a whole different tune between Saturday when he let him go early (hanging his head as we drove away....and saying 'I"ll never make you stay if you don't want to) and then Sunday he was all insistant that ds come for visitation telling me, 'If I let him skip today it will just always be something to keep him from coming.'

And then he told ds, 'when you get to be 18 and don't want to see me anymore then you can come to me like a man (more of that crap) and tell me that, but until then you have to come see me. (I didn't point out that there is no way in heck ds will be forced to keep seeing his dad until he is 18).

I agree with what I highlighted. I have tried many many times to tell him that he doesn't treat his son right both before and after the divorce....but he wants to talk it to death and prove me how wrong I am...he has some twisted image of what kids should be like or maybe he doesn't even like kids. The thing is he thinks he is 'making a man of ds' or some crap. I like men to be real men but I can't get across to XH that you only mess up a boy by trying to make him a man when he is still a boy!

His mother treats him and his brothers JUST like this. And he NEVER wanted to be like her...it is like he just can't see it though.

Unfortunately the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I would call him on this, asking him to remember what he told you about his upbringing and how he didn't want to be like his Mom, but how he has turned out just like her.

Don't think he is cognizant of just how close he is to losing his son forever. It's one thing to try to teach a boy something, and at 11 years old he is still a boy, it's another to teach a teenager or young man who is mature enough to process criticism from an adult. A continual verbal beatdown doesn't teach anyone anything but to escape the one delivering it.

Yes and no.

Bipolar is caused by messed up chemicals in the brain. In some ways the person doesn't have any control over it because part of the time they feel like they're on uppers and part of the time they feel like they're on downers.

With the correct medication, someone who is bipolar can level out and learn to keep more of a balance. They're not capable of fixing their behavior without medication. Once they are properly medicated, they probably need some kind of therapy to help them learn to live a balanced life, but the core of the problem is chemical.

When someone has a personality disorder, it's just the opposite. The central problem is that they don't think or act like the rest of us. My husband probably has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He has told me that he doesn't feel empathy for other people. In some very basic ways, it's like he never left the toddler stage.

People with personality disorders may also have depression or some other psychological symptom that can be helped with medication. But mostly they need long term behavioral therapy.

I HAVE told him this but he only sees it as me trying to control him in some way.

He should have cut his mother out of his life when he was 18 and left home. And ds will certainly have my support if that is what he wants to do. It is a fine line to walk to not spread a message of hate to ds about his father, while at the same time be clear to him that the way his dad treats him is UNacceptable.

His mother used material things to help her keep her hold on XH all these years. I hope to instill in ds that no amount of material things is worth allowing yourself to be mistreated.

Years ago when I researched PDs trying to figure out WHY my then husband was so impossible, I remember reading that bi-polar is like a blemish on a piece of cloth where as NPD (and other PDs) is like a bad piece of thread woven into the cloth.

As I said, I haven't looked at it in years, but I remember thinking my XH was BPish and his mother was dead on NPD. NPD mothers often turn out BP children.

I would amend this to "All Addicts are walking, talking rectums."

NPD = Attention Addict. They look at other people, even their own children, as nothing but sources of attention. It's the same way an alcohol looks at a bottle of booze - "what's it going to do for me?"

Counseling is worse than useless with NPDs. It just gives them another source of attention. You may as well try to talk an meth addict into stopping, and you can imagine how effective that is. The attention is just as much a drug as meth or crack, and the only way they will stop is if they hit bottom.

If you think of your XH as a complete addict for attention, praise, strokes and sucking up - who would sell his soul or anyone else's to get it, including his children's souls - I think you'll see it that the behaviour starts to make sense.

It's not deep and mysterious, and it's not a mental illness. NPD is just another addiction and these people do everything an addict does and say everything an addict says. And the only hope for them is to treat them exactly like addicts.

Please look up Dr. Drew Pinsky's recent book on this subject. You can read parts of it for free on amazon.com.

What I meant to say was that it seems like everybody and their brother is either "bipolar" or "narcissistic". Pop psychology. I really think that only licensed professionals should attempt to make diagnoses.

I will do that. I remember your thread on NPD and I looked back over it just now.

I know I can't really diagnose him, but I am telling you there is something wrong with him. He is still seeing Homewrecker but that relationship seems very weird to me. Ds told me he doesn't want his dad having homewrecker and her son over but is afraid to tell his dad.

Now that I am remarried and XH knows there is no chance I will take him back I think he is starting to act very different.

Talked to ds again this evening about it. He told me that after he went in the house yesterday his dad told him that the law says he has to keep seeing his dad until he is 18. I told ds that was ABSOLUTELY not true. I told him that I wasn't sure of the age and that it might even be 11 or 12...ds wanted to know 'what is the OLDEST it could be mom?' I told him I would find out. I reiterated that the way his dad treats him is UNacceptable and I am sorry he has to deal with it.

Can you and your son read the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend together?

How about you rehearse boundaries with your son, you know, role playing, so that you son can get a feel for what's respectful to his father while simultaneously standing up for himself.

Is there any sort of help you can get your son? Clergy? Someone who would be the equivilant of a school counselor for home schoolers?

ETA: I know you verbalize that you are sorry your son has to deal with his dad. I'm wondering how you say this with your actions?

It's a tough line for a mom to have to walk to teach principles like respect. I was able to do this from a place of having a diagnosed mental illness and my husband truly didn't have the ability to recognize his illogical and psychologically abusive behavior. Because of that I was able to mitigate some of the abuse damage.

I started reading passages of Think and Grow Rich to my son when he was your son's age. I talked with him and listened to him while he focused on what was within his power. My son learned that giving respect defines himself, not the person to whom he gives respect. A lot of people never get this. They think it's impossible to respect someone behaving so badly. Hogwash! That means they have to be constantly judging who is worthy of respect and who is not; meanwhile they allow a person behaving badly to define their own behavior.

My son learned that he defines his own behavior. He's now in college with 7 roommates - 4 of which can't wait to get drunk on the weekends. While alcohol is not allowed in the dorm, these four leave campus to find a bar to get smashed in. The other three along with my son are sober, polite young men. My son feels a sense of freedom in not having to judge his roommates but he notices the disrespectful behavior toward him and his 3 sober roommates; but he also recognizes there's nothing to be gained by becoming disrespectful himself. He's seeing those tough life lessons learned while dealing with an out-of-balance father coming back to help him stay grounded as an adult away from home now.

You need to get DS 10 into a good counselor. I hope you have insurance that will cover. Talk to your sons ped. to get a good reccomendation.

Nothing you are going to say or do is going to make XH treat him well. Your DS needs to hear that his feelings are valid, and no one...NO ONE can humiliate him for his feelings, nor shame him into submission.

This needs to not only come from you, but from someone outside the family. Seriously, this is not a Mom vs. Dad thing... this is a validation thing for your kid.

Please do everything in your power to get your son some IC support, I know IC are not (sometimes) respected here, but he obviously is conflicted AND being abused by his father.

I am so sorry to read this. Poor kid.

My H and DD18 have always had a terrible realtionship. I had to drag her like a cat to a bathtub to see a counselor (when she was about 13.. maybe 14).

Thank GOD I have great insurance.

After a very few short sessions, my DD18 really liked talking to her, even though things never went rosy between her father and her, she became much more confident in her dealings with him.

They are too much alike, or too seperate, but if someday they both grow up and have a positive relationship, it will be because of the IC. (I feel)

I go over very specific behaviors of my son toward his father that are disrespectful. Hanging up on him. Growling into the phone. I point out that those are rude actions that are not acceptable. I am not sure what you mean by showing him with my actions how sorry I am that he is in this situation.

SW, I've been thinking about what you said about baking cookies with your step-sons...and I wonder if there is any way the group of ya'll can arrange visitation so that your H's boys are not there when your son goes to his father's.

Removing the 'diagnosis' of your ex for a moment, and think about it. Your son has had you pretty much to himself his whole life, and then he has to leave while you are playing mommy to some other boys. He could be jealous, and unintentionally acting out toward his father for putting him in a position to be removed from his mother. Compounded by having to be removed while she mothers someone else.

I'm not saying this to excuse your ex's behavior, at all. He is the supposed 'grown-up', but not acting like it. But maybe you all could find a way to make it easier on your son, and perhaps knowing that you're not mommying someone else while he's away will make that easier.

Just a thought, I don't know your arrangements, but maybe you think it's worth looking into? It would take four very grown people to pull off, but worth it for everyone's future happiness. If indeed there is some jealousy there, and I fail to see how there could not be.

Are you working with your son to teach him about proper boundaries? Are you getting your son help so that he understands that his dad's behavior is not his fault and that your son understands he should not have to deal with it at all.

It's like any other thing: to build up trust, our behaviors must follow our words. So, what actions are you taking to support/protect your son from your ex?

We have the boys at the same time normally. We had dhs boys 2 weekenda in a row because of bad weather last weekend.

Well yes as I said I do talk to ds a lot about things. He understands the way his dad acts at times is wrong. I am under court order though so not sure what you are thinking I could do. If it was just some random person treating him badly I would remove that person from our lives. Can't do that when it is his his dad.

More on this...just so you all know where I am coming from....When ds went to his dad's Friday evening his step brothers were not even here yet. He knew they were coming, and that he would see them Sat night, but he didn't see them Friday before he went to his dad's. When I picked him up Sat we were all in the car headed to a movie and ds says, 'Oh I forgot the boys were here!' So I don't believe he wanted to come home because of the boys being here....I really do believe it was because of his dad being so mean to him.

Now Sunday's situation started early Sunday morning with ds saying first thing he didn't want to go to his dad's. He often doesn't want to go when there is something fun going on...and I agree it was difficult for him to leave while we were making cookies. We assured him we would save him some and make more the next weekend. However, he gets FURIOUS when his dad doesn't let him miss when he wants. To me it feels like ds must feel like he has always done all these things with me and the people in his life and now he routinely is denied his normal routine because he has to go see his dad.

And that has been the case since before I met dh and his boys. I remember one time last summer we had to leave a swim party to make visitation and ds asked his dad if he could skip so he could keep on swimming....his dad said no...ds was SOOOOO mad.

Don't get me wrong, there are some jealousy issues with ds and his stepbrothers....but this issue with his dad seems largely unrelated to me.

You could request a guardian at litem for your son. It's basically an attorney that works for him and not you or your ex. My step-daughter had one appointed and after his report to the judge the judge asked to speak to her privately in his chambers and she told him how she felt about visitation and he changed the order by her request.

SW, you know a thing or two by now about how to handle bullies, right? Have someone who he feels intimdated by, like maybe your Dad, put your x on notice that he knows what is going on, and is going to keep an eye on the situation. Bullies like to think no one knows what they do, and don't act when there will be consequences.

This was the child of the woman whose husband you stole? Ugh. NC, I have to tell you that was HUGELY triggering for me. However, to your point....

My son doesn't want to NEVER see his father again. I doubt seriously a judge would take kindly to this kind of stuff that is relatively petty compared to some of what goes on in the divorce courts with juveniles. My XH looks good on paper (except for the affair that destroyed his son's family). He has a good job, has a beautiful home, well maintained picture perfect. So basically ds would be saying to a judge, 'I want to go see my dad when *I* want to go see him. And sometimes he is mean to me and makes fun of me and calls me momma's boy.'

It would not be worth it unless things get worse. Better I think to ride it out since ds is 11 and there are really only a few more years of this junk. In the meantime I will just enjoy my (majority) time with son and keep reminding him he won't always have to tolerate his dad being mean to him.

He is already feeling the pressure of it I know. He was on his best behavior for visitation on Wednesday. He knows I tell everyone everything and he can't stand it that his neighbors (my friends-not his because of what he did) know what a loser he is. And he knows of course that my husband knows what ds is upset about....and he knows ds is so close to me that he tells me everything. He really knows he has very little chance of keeping his bullying ways a secret.

The real problem comes in because he doesn't KNOW what is actually acceptable. Only when I express shock over a 'parenting' tactic (such as eating a ice cream in front of ds and saying 'too bad you can't have any') does he really see that others might disagree with that kind of junk.

And my dad is very angry. He is not the type of man to get involved though.

SW...I admit first that I haven't read through or caught up, but just from your most recent posts on this, I am very concerned for your son. I feel like he is being emotionally abused if not in other ways as well. Hiding under the bed? Begging that OW and her son not come over? Please get him to a psychologist and get to the bottom of this. I feel sick over what I'm reading here.

It is so hard to accurately relay what is going on. The hiding under the bed isn't about real 'fear' on ds's part....it is ds's drama. It is his way of saying, 'I REALLY don't like what is going on and I am gonna make a big statement!'

And he didn't say he begs for OW and her son to not come over...he doesn't even tell his dad that...he told ME that. But then he often tells me differnt things about OW and her son (age 6) and I can tell he has fun when they are there. Not always of course.

Also he told me his dad scares him but he also says the same thing about my dh who is NOT scary and never says an unkind thing to him. Ds walked in our room yesterday....I was totally unclothed about to hop in the shower and dh was fully clothed. I jumped and screeched and ds quickly left the room saying sorry and dh said through the door to ds as he left, 'you need to remember to knock before you come into a room with a closed door.' Later ds said that 'scared' him.

So I had a long talk with ds about him being careful to accurately describe his feelings. And that included describing how things go at his dad's house.

Oh and after all that stuff last weekend XH had the nerve to text me and tell me he had flowers beds that needed to be weeded and he would pay ds well for the job if he wanted to come over. I just texted back, 'No. not this weekend.' Like I am going to give up my weeekend with ds so he can weed his dad's flower beds.

SW...If your son doesn't have anyone but you, your new husband, and your ex husband to talk to without having to worry about being invalidated (no offense to you intended) then I do feel he would benefit from having a nonpartial person to talk to. I'm not an expert, as you well know, but from the outside looking in, it sounds like your son is just not mature enough to navigate your ex husband's manipulative personality. I do worry about your son.

he told ME that.

I don't think it matters who he told. Something about the situation with OW and her son coming over is bothering him. Whether he sees a change in how he is treated when they are there, or whether he doesn't like sharing his father - either way...whatever it is, needs to be discussed. I don't think it's fair to call his reactions drama, SW. Dang...if I had to go through all that your son has gone through in the last 2 years, I might not be able to wrap my head around it either. I think he realizes he has no control over it. Would be nice if there were some element of his life that he had some control over. Does he ever have an opportunity to decide what he does and does not do on a day to day basis?

My thoughts are if a child psychologist felt his time with his father was abusive or detrimental, it would change how visitation works, right? I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. If nothing else, maybe it could result in some family therapy. Was he ever given a chance to feel stable or in some control of his life after your divorce from his father? Does he feel like a priority to either you or your ex husband at this time, like his opinion matters to the point that it could change the outcome of how he spends his time, etc.? Is he given any choices, or does he live a pretty regimented life?

SW...ask your son how your ex husband treats the OW's son. I am now wondering if your son is worried about the other boy.

And find out about the age thing. Call your lawyer as soon as possible. And hire someone to counsel your son to help him through this hurdle in his life and make sure there isn't more to this than you know. Have him evaluated for bipolar, perhaps, just to make sure he hasn't inherited something from his father or paternal grandmother. Upsets to a child's environment at his age that result in meltdowns such as you're describing may not be immaturity like your ex husband is defining it. It could be that he has a chemical imbalance that makes it hard for him to adjust to changes in his environment.

If he has to go with his father, you could curtail your activities with your stepsons so that he is not having to leave while fun things are going on. I think before his father comes or before you leave to drop him off, it is best that he not be engaged elbow deep in something either.

I think the deal is....the novelty has worn off for ds and he just wants his life back. That first summer when he was going on visitation with his dad, it was movies and eating out and all sorts of fun. Then 6 months into it he introduces OW and her then 4 year old son and that was fun for a bit. Now a year past meeting OW and son he has had enough of sharing his time with his dad..having OW discipline him, having his dad take up for OW's son....(even if both discipline and defending OW's son is warranted)...Am I making sense?

Also ds is VERY aware of how much it all bothers me still and his loyalties lie with me. I know I've overplayed that at times...said too much been too transparent...but I'm trying to restrain myself and just let him have his time with his dad--even when that includes OW and her son being there. Funny thing is the less I say...the less he seems to want to even be around his dad.

Take this week for example. Ds has piano lessons on Monday across the street from our old house (where XH lives). So I asked XH this week if he would switch out and take Monday visitation instead of Wednesday. All via text...and he says, 'I'll take both.'
I say, 'sorry can't do two nights this week.'
XH: 'Why?'
Me: 'Too disruptive to his schedule to be out late two nights during the week. He comes home really wound up. So do you want to switch nights this week?'
XH: 'Sure, I'll switch but it would not hurt you to let me see my son a little more.'

I didn't respond to that but later after he got ds I texted him that he could keep him half an hour later since he got him half an hour later due to piano being later than expected.

Then yesterday he texts me at 12:30

XH: Are U gonna let me see Colton tonight too?

I ignored him for about 3 hours.

XH: Hello?

Me: We already discussed this. I said we can't do twice this week.

XH: You did not say why other than 'he gets to wound up' so it really wasn't a discussion. So can he come up for supper?

Me: Why are you pressing this? I said no.

XH: I hope your dh's ex isn't treating him this way.

And that was the end of it....but the thing I wanted to say about that is that ds DID NOT WANT to go. I've let him go extra nights a few times so I'm not totally opposed to it, but in this instance, after that last bad weekend and with ds telling me he didn't want to go....well, I just said no. Ds doesn't want to tell his dad that he doesn't want to go though. He told me his dad would be mad. I said, 'mad how?' He said, 'well, not mad, but all sad.' And he hung his head, imitating how his dad would act all dejected and sad. So I told ds, 'well, I can handle your dad, but sooner or later you will have to tell him how you feel. You just can't let yourself be manipulated by him that way...acting all sad.'

So I think ds's emotions are all over the place about his dad. I do not think he is really actually AFRAID of his dad. I think he HATES the lack of control he has about this whole deal.

We usually have all 3 boys the same weekend....we are off schedule right now, due to some bad weather where dh could get to his boys....and he is having to deal with his ex wanting to change the weekends up....but I think we will prevail and keep all 3 boys on the same schedule. This will be another 'off' weekend....ds has to go to his dad's while my step sons are here. Ds is already bummed about it...but there is nothing I can do about it.

Ugh. I have rambled...I just wanted to say that my son is very dramatic by nature....hiding under the bed at his dad's house is a dramatic reaction to him being unhappy about what was going on...he had done it here before hiding in his closet to avoid going to his dads. BUT, and this is a big BUT, he USUALLY is just fine going to his dads. So I will just have to pay attention to the patterns and keep talking to him about how things go when he is there.

Honestly I worry about a visit to a child psych being used against ME. Maybe that is my leftover junk from XH trying to convince me that *I* was the problem....plus I do know I haven't behaved perfectly during this process.



Probably as much as most 10 year olds. The part he hates though is being removed from his normal life and routine that existed for the first 9 years of his life and forced to go with his dad where he really has no life. They do NOTHING with other people-except OW and son. I have sacrificed a lot and given the majority of my time to my ds and created a close relationship with him with lots of friends and family. It was a life XH did not want to join---REFUSED to join. He spent his vacations and weekneds off partying or hunting or whatever....without us. Now he is paying the price of having a son who does not relate to him AT ALL.



Well he is a priority to me. I tell him that all the time in words and actions. He hasn't been shut out of my life just because I am married. Yes, I have a bedroom door that is shut (and locked) at night now and that is new...but often on days dh goes to work late or the weekend ds comes into our room and watches the news in bed with us...Last night after dh came home they went in the garage together to put together a wheelbarrow. Dh bought ds a knife that ds LOVES...he went around all day yesterday saying, 'I LOVE the knife (stepdad) got me. My dh is kind to him, involves him in things that his dad would NEVER think to do....but he also hangs back a bit and is not pushy at all with ds.

And then of course, ds is still homeschooled and so he spends the majority of his day alone with me just like always. Sure he has had changes but NOTHING like many kids of divorce have...

I am anxious to see how this weekend goes. He wasn't thrilled about his evening Monday with his dad. He said they ate and watched 3 hours of tv and he was bored.

SW, taking your son for help dealing with the after-effects of his father's choices is in no way a BAD reflection on you.

I know that intellectually. Makes me nervous. He is going for his physical in a few weeks. I will ask for a referral then.

30 hours until I take ds to his dad's and ds is already saying he doesn't want to go.

He also just now gave me a list of 'you know who I love Mom?' His dad came in below God, me, the dog, and my parents. LOL

Earlier I asked him how his dad treats OWs son. He said fine. Says his dad isn't mean to him or anything. As he talked it came out that his dad often makes ds defer to the OWs son's wishes because 'he's 5.' (or 6...I can't keep up). So ds is feeling that his dad favors the other boy. 2 weeks ago tomorrow one of the incidents was XH calling ds 'rude' because of something he said or did to the OW's son. Then they took the two boys to a 10 p.m. movie. Idiots.

SW - After you take your son for his physical, can you ask to speak privately with the doctor? At his age, I am sure your son will be fine in the waiting room with a book. Can you see yourself letting the doctor know about the bipolar and manipulative characteristics on your ex husband's side of the family and recent histrionic behavior in your son? Maybe tell them that you have no materials to tell you what is normal for his age for a boy going through what he's going through and should you be watching for any type of behavior in your son, who is reaching puberty.

Hormones can trigger behaviors too, so staying informed is not the same as saying 'he is bipolar or has inherited something'. It is better to stay aware rather than avoid things out of fear.

Yes. Good idea. I will do that. I fear looking like the bitter Xwife trying to paint the boys father as crazy.

A repeat today of what happened 2 weeks ago. Ds called me from his room sobbing hysterically, begging to come home. He had got into an argument with OWs 6 year old son and told the boy he hates him. So ds was sent to his room.

He begged me to come get him. I called XH and he said no that I could not come get him. He walked down the hall to ds's room and talked to me in front of ds (presumably out of earshot of OW too). Defending himself and trying to make it be about ds's name calling....I said, 'you don't even get what is going on here...this is about ds's frustration level getting to that point.' (FTR, I have NEVER heard or heard of ds telling ANYONE he hates them).

XH says,'What is he frustrated about?' I said, 'why don't you ask him?' So he says, 'ds what are you frustrated about?' Ds starts telling him he didn't want them (OW and son ) coming over today and he had asked his dad not to have them over. And he told his dad that he felt his dad took up for the 6 year old and that ds never could be the one that got his way on things. And that the 6 year old was allowed to say 'You aren't the boss of me' when ds didn't want his Lego creations destroyed (disassembled actually).

XH just defended himself and basically called ds a liar...saying, 'Haven't you seen me spank him?' Ds said no never. XH argued that...and I said, 'She lets you spank her son? What kind of mother is she that she would allow that?'

He didn't want to talk anymore to me after that.

I got on the phone with ds and tried to calm him down. I could tell XH had picked up the extension so I gauged my words carefully. Just 2 1/2 more hours until I get him back home.

I hate this.

So I definitely am taking ds to a counselor.

You know what he did today? He stabbed himself with his pencil. In the neck. Well, it was with the eraser end which was used down to the metal and it scraped him up pretty good. But that along with comments like, 'I hate myself, I hate my life, I wish I were dead.'...have me concerned.

He was with me when this happened. I was watching another homeschooled child....our former neighbor's child....same age as ds....they were working on schoolwork and I was trying to get a shower, confirm piano lessons for both of them later and then my dh called. Ds was having a melt down about his math test. He had already came to my door when I was in the shower and I told him to do what he could and I would be out in a bit. He comes back when I am on the phone to complain about his friend doing something...I motioned for him to leave me alone for a minute. I talked for a total of 6 minutes to dh. Before I hung up friend comes to my door to tell me ds was bleeding. When I hung up, ds came into my bathroom and I cleaned him up....I was calm and asked him why he did that. He said he was so mad...that I sssh'd him when I was on the phone. Said I don't love him. That I love dh more.

Then the friend tells his sister when we all meet up for piano lessons what ds had done. As I was walking out with ds he told me he was so sad he wanted to die...that now the sister knows and she will tell everyone that he stabbed his neck with the pencil.

He seems very....needy to me lately. I am with him 24/7 when he isn't with his dad. And yet he makes comments about me not loving him any more. I assure you that isn't the case....and no one here is making him feel un included....but he FEELS that way.

So I am checking with a psych nurse friend (OWs XH btw) now for a reference for a counselor.

His whole life has turned upside down in 2 years' time. I think it's for the best that you get him talking to a neutral person, and I think the timing is right, before he starts puberty.

Hang in there.

I have to tell you I am pretty freaked out by the whole deal. I worry that I am going to look like the problem parent...since this thing happened on my watch.

Why didn't you help him between your shower and phone call?

There was no time between shower and phone call. I was still getting dressed and had stopped to text the piano teacher before I forgot and the phone rang mid texting.

Why are you always antagonistic in your replies? Your implication is that I caused my son to stab himself by not tending to his needs immediately.

I self-injure. I started when I was about your DS's age. Now, in my mid 30's, I'm pretty confident that I've stopped. My last bout of self injury was a few years ago.

My parents knew about my self injury and looked the other way. I suspect, mostly, like you, they were worried about how the were perceived.

It's really too bad, because I'm the only person that really suffered from their decision to keep appearances up at all costs. And, my parents were too afraid to confront their issues (likely borderline personality disorder and all the stuff that comes with it.)

FWIW, as a child, I used to look up to my dad, the enabling parent. Now, not so much anymore. I know he did the best that he could, but I just don't get how he decided that I wasn't worth enough to him so that he would make an effort to protect me from the abuse. As an adult, do I feel like my dad loved me? In his own capacity, I'm sure. But like a parent should? Absolutely not.

I'm wondering if your son is feeling unloved, because he perceives that you are not doing enough to protect him from his father. I'm wondering, if he told you that and then you said to him "No, that's not right. ", then that he would feel completely invalidated.

My thoughts are with your son.

I can see how CWMI's post may appear antagonistic...

I can also see how it would appear to a child. I only say this because something similar happened to me (telling my boy I'd help him after I was done getting dressed but ending up on the phone... not the stabbing part) and my son asked me why I was on the phone next when I said I would help him next.

Not that it was wrong to be on the phone, but just that from his perspective, it appeared I was not being true to my word. He's been catching me a lot like that lately, and while it's circumstantial, I can see that from his perspective, it's not showing love. It�s showing him other things are more important. That�s not true! I make great sacrifices to be with him as much as I can and I incorporate as much snuggle and fun time as I can around my job (hard being a single mom with no visitation).

Multiply that by days weeks months of being busy and trying to juggle everything I can see why a child who has a higher than average need for affection (if I'm reading your son right) would feel un-loved and un-included even if that were the case. When my son says he doesn�t feel like I love him because he�s not getting his way, if I feel his need for attention is unreasonable, I�ve started trying to point out his mis-interpretation (�no, mommy is not dropping you off at school because she doesn�t love you. If mommy doesn�t go to work we won�t have money to buy clothes or get ice-cream�).

Wish I had some advice for you, but I am still trying to crack the nut on that BEFORE my son does something like yours. He's now saying he hates life and hates everything and especially verbal about hating that his dad won't spend time with him or call more than every other month. I did take him to a counselor for awhile and it frustrated me because he kept saying things that I couldn�t help, like get a dog (I rent- can�t exactly move right now to a place that allows pets), spend more time with him (I already spend my entire evenings with him every night except Bible study, and I have a very limited social life- my dates are pretty much lunch dates while he�s in school and any socializing is done with him in tow and then only if he�s in a mood to share me since it does no good to go out to dinner with the girls and end up talking only to him all night), and get his dad more involved (gee, if I could do that we probably wouldn�t be divorced! I�ve asked him to call more often, say once a month at least but he has �stuff to take care of.�)

Sorry for the threadjack. I just feel your pain of trying to do everything you can, feeling like you are wearing yourself out and yet things are going wrong. And all anyone does is blame you for being a bad parent. I am so sorry your son is that upset that he stabbed himself. Definitely a cry for attention, just what to do??

I don't mean this to be antagonistic, truly.

How did you explain your decision to remarry to your son? Was he involved in that decision at all?

I am sorry for you both.

Please note I said I was freaked out and worried about how I will look. I did NOT say that worry was going to keep me from having my son seen by a professional. His appt is next week.

My dh just told me that when we were bowling Saturday night that ds smashed himself in the head with his fist twice because he bowled poorly. I didn't see THAT, but I was dealing with ds the ENTIRE night about how upset he was because he couldn't bowl as well as the other boys with us. This is typical...he wants to do everything perfect or at least better than others. He can go from the depths of despair to ecstatic in an instant if things suddenly go his way.

Right now he is enjoying the lego sets his dad bought him last night and very happy. He has already done an hour on line math session with his teacher and other students, but we have to get busy on the rest of of his school work....I can promise you that as soon as it is time to sit down with school work his mood will change DRASTICALLY.

So I don't know. He did ask me last night when I was tucking him in/saying prayers if he was a horrible person for stabbing himself. I assured him he wasn't a horrible person---then asked him why he did that? He said he didn't know...just that it felt good. But he is sad he did it.

Smiling Woman,

I have an a 9 year old. One of the things I have found works really well with him is to ask him, "What did you see going on that caused you to do that?" Then, listen to the answer and ask him, "What will you do differently next time?" See what you get and you may get answers to help him through what he's feeling.

All the best

How old is your son? The thing is ds is 11. I think he is old enough to have his needs delayed for 15 minutes. If not I am in real trouble....





Yes, I point this out to ds too. Point out to him that I am with him more than the majority of mothers get to be with their children. And I WANT to be with him. But I do also point out to him that he is not the center of the universe....that as he gets older he needs to be learning that other people have needs and wants too. That it is not always just about him. (that will bring on saddness (that sometimes seems contrived to me) about how he doesn't want to grow up.) The thing is a lot of his drama is very similar to how I ACTED. I often ACTED much more dramatic than I felt. I guess it is attention seeking behavior. So back to the question of why does he seek so much attention?


Does the counselor think you should be doing these things your son is asking for? Ds does this too.....asks for things over and over that he has been told no to. A phone, another dog, things that aren't going to happen and are NOT requirements for a healthy happy childhood. Or complain about not being as good on the piano as his friend....and woe is ds who is not good at ANYTHING that anyone cares about. I told him just the other day, 'If you want to be really good at something you have to put a lot of time into practicing it....your friend spends HOURS practicing the piano and improving his natural skill/ability (ds has it too)...but if you don't want to practice for hours than you can't reasonably complain that you aren't as good as the boy who does.'

Is that so off base to say to him? I'm not a competitve mom...I don't push him to 'be the best' or 'beat everyone.' I've always encouraged him to be conscientious and to do his best at whatever he does...I encourage character improvement mostly....to be kind, generous, loving.....so where all this competitivness is coming from I don't know.




Yeah, I am feeling like the worst mother ever this morning. Sick feeling in my stomach over this.

I DO this. His answers are usually that things aren't fair, that a playmate was lying, being mean spirited, getting away with something....yesterday his friend finished his schoolwork much sooner than ds...ds insisted that his friend was lying about having finished it....I told him that might be but it isn't ds's problem or mine...that the friend will have to answer to his mother about it. Ds wants something DONE about that sort of thing. And he gets REALLY angry when I won't make things right (according to him)

Have you asked him "what" he wants you to do in each instance? Put it back on him to tell you what it is he thinks you should do and then explain why you can't.

BTW, your description of your son could well have been me describing mine. My son has been seeing a counselor and I am seeing remarkable improvement. I have also ordered the program Total Transformation and am hoping it will give me more ideas.

SmilingWoman, when I was a kid and being sexually abused, I used to cut myself, sit on the porch in blizzards and refuse to come inside, other things like that. I did these things to myself as a cry for help, but that was as far as I could take it. It was done to get my parents' attention. It alarmed, upset and frustrated them to no end. They would ask why I would do these things and I couldn't articulate my feelings. I didn't have the vocabulary or the maturity to get out what was happening to me, so I misdirected them with my replies. (Long story - I hope this makes sense!)

I never had counseling. I think a counselor skilled in childhood issues could have helped me.

What I'm saying is that I think YOU are his go-to person for his hurts. He just can't tell you why he's hurting. I hope you get him to a counselor for help.

I am going to. I have a name of a counselor and will be seeing his regular doctor next week too.

What do you think caused all of this in the first place with your son?

That says a lot about where your concerns are to me. How do you think it appears to your son?

***edit***

SHUT UP!

I got the name last night. Late. I AM taking care of it.

I am being honest about how I FEEL---but I am NOT denying my son emergency medical attention to protect my image, so STOP it!

Btw, did you read the part where the wound is very superficial? He isn't bleeding to death from the wound. It is a scrape.

And yes, in case I wasnt clear....and since you aren't reading my thread carefully...I DO have an appt for next week with his regular doctor. ALREADY made.

So what would you do, take him to the emergency room? Seriously?

And no you aren't worried about YOUR image--just your husbands.

With a GP?

If you broke your foot, would you see your gynecologist?

What are you doing, SW???

Your CHILD STABBED HIMSELF IN THE NECK. And you're taking him to a pediatrician, next week. Hello, painting the bathroom on a sinking Titantic.

Is this really your best?

Please refrain from personal attacks! I am watching this thread and I don't like where it's heading. Let's get back on track and help this poster with her son.

Seriously? Yes, I would recognize that as a symptom of something bigger than I could handle and I would reach for help, immediately.

Seriously, I'm not joking or trying to play with you, your child attempted suicide, as poorly executed as it was. If you think waiting a week to speak to his pediatrician is a smart move, well, I question that.

I have a pediatrician I can speak to the same day I call. I fired the one I couldn't. I do not wait for second opinions on my children's lives. I ask for input, absolutely, but when it comes to life or death (THIS WAS A SUICIDE ATTEMPT), I'm not waiting a week for an opinion from a physical doctor on whether my child needs help.

*edit

*edit

Oh good grief. He did not attempt suicide.

Self harm is serious but it is RARELY suicidal.

I have been seeing several things lately that concern me about my son's health... I HAVE called his pediatrician a couple of times and discussed issues with his nurse....she thought we could wait on his regular yearly check up (at that time was aout 6 weeks out). This incident with him stabbing/scraping his neck happened less than 24 hours ago. I consulted a friend of mine who is a psych nurse to determine how serious this type of stuff might be...He thought I should take him in to a counselor...he did NOT think it was an emergency situation. Then I had to make calls to the insurance company and then calls to the counselor....So 4 hours into the next business day I DO have an appt for ds.

I hate that I am defending myself to you, so I wish you would go away and let other people who are CONCERNED about my life and my son help.

I don't know where you get the idea that I'm not concerned about your son or your life. I am concerned about both. But I'll leave you alone. ***edit***

There will be NO FURTHER nasty snide attacks on this thread!!

PLEASE offer support and MarriageBuilders concepts & Principles to HELP this member or REFRAIN from posting!!

dont know if SW is in this boat, but for us you can't get to a psych without a referral from the ped. not unless you want to pay for it out of pocket.

*edit

*edit

I realize this post paints myself as crazy, and I was but I�ve come a long way with counseling, so I don�t mind sharing�


I was a lot like this as a kid. My son is too. I wanted attention, acceptance, and love. I did not feel loved. I thought if I was as good as others I, too, would be accepted, loved. My inadequacies were the reason my life wasn�t filled with joy. If only I could

Some of it was misunderstanding. For example, my mom had baby books for my sister and brother. But nothing of me, and only a handful of actual photos before I was 2 (when my sister was born). I would get angry and resentful every time I saw those books. Why didn�t she love me too? It wasn�t until I was grown that I learned my mom had no place to live when I was born. On the streets and other issues, she didn�t have a real home until she met and married their dad. I never told my mom how unloved that made me feel. So she never had an opportunity to correct it. This is why when he says �you don�t love me� I ask why he feels that way and try to point out reality.

Some of it was honestly her failure to parent. For example, my mother partied with my classmates. The same girls who teased and bullied me in school were drinking with my momma. How cool is that. Another example, I was allowed to do whatever, go whatever as long as it didn�t inconvenience her (I had to find my own way).

Some of it was unreasonable. For example, one day my mom had a dinner party. I was feeling especially neglected and irritated that she sent us to our room and wouldn�t even let us have some of the party food. I remember thinking if she loved me, she would check on me, so I�ll hide between the bed and the wall and see how long it takes her to find me. Well she never did (honestly, I was old enough, 9th grade!! she didn�t need to!). And as morning broke I got more anad more angry that my mom hadn�t checked on me. I made up my mind to stay in that room til she did. Bad decision cuz it was uncomfortable. She finally found me later that evening and asked what I was doing there. I was too ashamed to tell her the reason so I told her I was cold and wanted to sleep next to the radiator. Her response? Well, you�re pretty dumb because the radiator is off. And she left.

And I had to learn, as an adult, in college that some of my desire for attention was unreasonable. You are starved for and crave attention and affection, so you begin to want more than is normal. Normal friends don�t hang on your every word 24-7.

And it�s a self-fulfilling prophesy. You feel like your parents don�t love you, and then everything they do feeds into that. As an adult, I can step back and see that our dad loved us, but that my mom has mental issues and really isn�t capable of loving anyone but herself. The sad thing is, we thought our dad hated us. Couple years ago my mom told us how she hated the nice things he did for us, like taking us to the park and getting us ice cream. She didn�t want to waste time on that junk, she had a life to live but he always drug her along. All those years, we thought SHE was the one doing nice things for us because dad was the evil bad man who hated us.

I just want other parents to see that our kids don�t see things the way we do. And they really WANT to tell you. I really WANTED to tell my mom I felt like she didn�t love me. But I was too ashamed and sad when the moment came. I think she could have pulled it out of me, and that�s why I�m really trying to work with my son to tell me what he feels.

My mom may not have done anything about it, but I sense you are the kind of mom who WOULD try to fix it for your son.

I�ll have to ask him. He has not asked me for a dog, and has been extremely afraid of dogs (not sure why). My friend has two dogs so we�ve been working on it. My son DOES have the problem of asking over and over. I�m working with him on that. It�s like he forgets I already said no.


You're not. Read my other post about my mom. And even SHE wasn't the "worst mother ever" ;-)

Then read �The boy who was raised as a dog.� You�ll cry for those poor kids, but feel much better about your parenting.

That is part of what I was having to call and find out about....of course every phone call takes so long...but got it all worked out and an appt set.

Ty. I have an only child and I worked to not over-react about every little thing.

Your post doesn't paint you as crazy at all. And in fact, I often see my childhood self in my son. I needed LOTS of attention...and I did things like sit outside in the freezing cold to get attention. My mom was very much all about us....she didn't date at all and she didn't go out with the girls at all or leave us ever. However, at the same time she was very matter of fact about some things....like shrugging if I was sitting out in the cold...(she figures if a kid gets cold enough they will come in). She wasn't a coddler....but she was very PRESENT. She would let me crawl in bed with her when I was a teen and talk for HOURS even though she would be exhausted. I would pat her cheek...'mom! mom! Are you awake!'

So what I am saying is that *I* had all kinds of attention from my mom and our big circle of friends. We had a full life....and yet I still did attention seeking things....so part of me just thinks it is the kid! Not the circumstances. Because this kid of mine, has A LOT of my time and attention. We were talking earlier, as he sat in my lap...about what a trip to the counselor might entail....and he was telling me how 'sad' he is. I asked him about what (and see here is a time where he was FINE, more than fine, before I started talking to him....but suddenly is sad. But anyway, I asked him what he was sad about...he said he just 'wants me.' I tried to get out of him what that means.

He made some comment about me loving dh more than him. I said, 'hmmmm.....well can you tell me what I am doing to make you think that? Because I know how I feel and I certainly don't love dh more than you, but if you are feeling that way I'd like to know what I am doing that makes you feel that way.'

He hummed and hawed.....could not come up with anything...so I said, 'are you AFRAID I will stop loving you?' He said yes to that....but I don't know. He is a very very bright kid and I just can't help but feel that he is saying catch phrases that he's heard at times.

When I told him about the counselor he acted like it terrified him.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner, I just saw this....His counselor says a combination of 2 things: low self esteem and over hearing his Dad and I disagreeing. I also think it is partially due ot his Dad's inconsistent availability to him. It only took a few sessions (less than 5) for me to see dramatic improvement.

SW, I find it interesting that he is afraid you will stop loving him. I am not a counselor, but could be that in his mind, his Dad stopped loving you and you stopped loving his Dad. You may want to mention that to the counelor. Also, there is a book called, I'll Like You Forever. It's a picture book, but the repeated message is "I'll like you forever, I'll love you for alwayss, as long as I'm living, my baby you'll be." DS and I read this often and I repeat the quote to him frequently. Also, I tell him regulary - several times a day, that I love him and I will love him forever.

My son is 9. He didn't like the idea of going to a counselor, either, but now he loves it. He says his counselor is "cool." If it would help your DS, my son has said he is willing to talk to him about counseling and how much he likes it and what he does there. If that is something you would want to do, let me know and I will post my e-mail address and get you my phone number that way.

I have that book.

And I will ask him if he would like to talk to your son.

FTR, I am VERY affectionate and tell him I love him often.

SW, I am stunned by your reaction to this. The kid poured his heart out to you and you Did Not Believe Him.

Now do you see why he is so desperate for your attention? Because no matter what he does or says, You Do Not Believe Him.

In all seriousness, why do you doubt what your son is telling you?


Of course it does. Counselor = Punishment for saying stuff that mom does not believe. Did you and your XH also go to a counselor, and if you did does your son know about it?

Please, please, please stop trying to find explanations so that you can ignore and dismiss this child's words and actions. He is straight up telling you how he feels and is *stabbing himself* when he cannot get you to believe him any other way.

How desperate will he have to get? He is trying his best but you are dismissing his words and actions. He is suffering and he needs your help. Most of all, he needs you to Believe Him and I do not understand why you don't.

What did I not believe? I honestly would like you to tell me what it is I didn't believe?


He did not stab himself because I didn't believe something he said! Where did you get that idea? He stabbed himself because he was angry at his friend over something and/or because I asked him to give me a minute to get off the phone.

Regardless what is it you think I should do? He tells me he thinks I don't love him as much as dh and I tell him 'sorry you are feeling that way. What am I doing to make you think that?' (for which I get no answer) Then I continue to reassure him that I DO still love him more than anyone or anything in the world and that nothing will change that. It is a conversation that has been repeated half a dozen times in the last few months.

The counselor had nothing to do with anything he told me. It wasn't presented as punishment in any way. I told him it was to find a way to help him deal with his frustration and anger and stop hurting himself. He was on my lap with me hugging him and telling him how much I love him when we had this conversation.

And no XH and I did not go to a counselor. I went once alone because XH would not go with me...it was the evening before D-Day. Ds didn't not know about it. Still doesn't.


Ok, needs my help HOW? WHAT am I suppose to do that I am not doing?

Son: I am afraid Mom will stop loving me.

Mom: Oh, son, you are a very very bright kid and I just can't help but feel that you are saying catch phrases that you've heard at times.

It doesn't matter whether you said this out loud or not. Believe me, he heard you and he got the message.

If you had to take 100% seriously the idea that "my son feels that I do not love him" - how would you handle it? And remember that he needs deeds, not words.


As I said before: Believe Him. Do not look for any excuses or explanations to sidestep the very disturbing words and actions of this child. Straight-up believe his actual words. *Then* ask yourself what you should be doing.

No normal healthy child will deliberately injure himself. If you dismiss this with "He's just looking for attention", you may well regret it the rest of your life.

Of course he's looking for attention. His world is being destroyed around him and he does not know how to handle it. Of course he's looking for attention.

Ok, I don't know how you think you can know this. I am NOT giving off the vibe I don't believe him and as far as I know his brightness doesn't extend to mind reading.


Why do you think I am spilling my guts to strangers on a message board? I DO want to be the best mother I can, but I don't KNOW the deeds I should be doing to convince him I do love him.


FTR, this is not new behavior. He has smacked himself in the face and on the head for several years...not often, but enough. It is almost ALWAYS because he thinks he isn't good enough at something.

I have the counselor appt. set. I am doing all I know to do. I get that you think it is not enough. I would love to hear the deeds you think would convince ds I love him.

How did he react when you said you were going to get remarried?

Most important: Do not ever, ever, ever tell your son that his feelings are "wrong" or that he is "wrong" to feel the way he does.

Son: I feel that my mom doesn't love me.
You: Oh, son, you are so wrong to think that, of course Mommy loves you, etc etc etc

This is what I was trying to get across in the posts above. He told you he felt you don't love him and you told US that he was just repeating catch phrases he'd heard elsewhere.

That's what you said to us. What did you say to him?

His feelings are not "wrong". He DOES feel this way. Those feelings are true and correct, TO HIM. He needs to have you fully acknowledge how he feels and not ever once tell him he's "wrong" to feel that way.

When he says something like, "I don't think you love me," you say in return: "I'm so sorry. What can we do together so you don't have to feel that way anymore?"

From your descriptions of him, I would bet that this child has been told for a very long time that his feelings, thoughts and perceptions are "wrong".

"He is just repeating catch phrases" translates into, "He Doesn't Really Feel That Way." Which is the same as saying, "His feelings and perceptions are wrong."

When someone tries to tell you the truth about their feelings but the response is "You Don't Really Feel That Way" - I cannot begin to tell you how maddening and frustrating that is.

But your son IS trying to tell you. Do you really not understand why he jabbed a pencil into his neck, or why he slaps and punches himself and lives in a huge state of fear and frustration?

I am trying to tell you that his feelings and perceptions are not "wrong". They may be uncomfortable and disturbing for you to hear, but they are not "wrong". They are HIS FEELINGS and he is trying to tell you the TRUTH about HOW HE FEELS.

If you ever find yourself trying to correct him when he tells you HOW HE FEELS about something - you must catch yourself and STOP.

I'm sorry, but you are not really in a position to say this. This is about the vibe your son is perceiving that you give off. I think what some people are saying is that even on a disembodied message board, we are getting that vibe too.

Think on that a bit.

Ok. I don't tell him he is wrong to feel the way he feels. I was only musing to you all....his actions day to day don't seem to match the things he says sometimes. He is fine until things aren't going his way.




Well if this is true then it would be me because I am the only parent who has ever parented him.

I will pay attention to myself and see if I am telling him he doesn't feel the way he says he feels.

Let me ask you all this though. Do you not think there are kids who just say dramatic things? That they really DON'T mean what they say? That they are just trying out phrases. I remember I was that way. I was one of those dramatic kids who made sweeping statements and gestures that really didn't apply to my feelings or the reality of what I was living. I think I just wanted attention.

I am in a position to know what I say to my son and how I FEEL about my son. How I live my life. I have been the parent there for him since day one. My ENTIRE life for the last 11 plus years has been for him.

I don't think anyone is questioning what you feel. Some of us are saying that what you feel is not the point in terms of the vibe you seem to be giving off.

Consider your defensiveness. Can you really afford to indulge in that right now? Your son is in crisis.

It is very hard to think I've done everything for my son and yet he is feeling I don't love him.

I have the first counselor appt set for about a week from now. He only sees me the first time. So hopefully he can shed some light on what I should be doing.

I do thank you all for your comments.

(((SW)))

I believe so on kids who say dramatic things. That being said, children who do that have an unmet emotional need - typically for validation. Children don't have the skill of "intention" developed. Instead, their behavior is driven purely by emotional need.

I could only relate having the feeling of being an accessory in my mother's life, rather than her child. It wasn't what she said to me that made me doubt her love and caring for me. It's the feeling I got from what she did, how she talked about me when she didn't know I was around that unnerved me and invalidated her words. Partly that and partly because there was SOOOO much unmet emotional need from my relationship with my father that I needed more than my mother could deliver.

I have no idea how your son gets ideas of being unloved. being the mother of an only son gives me complete compassion for your situation because his well being and happiness are always on my mind.

You only have a few more years of influence on your son - maybe two - before peers will reinforce what he believes about himself. He sees himself in competition with your new husband for your love. He believes love is finite, no matter what you say, because his dad ran out of love for him a long time ago - at least in the currency your son needs from him in order to know he is loved. Every time your X belittles him it takes a piece out of him.

It's up to you to make sure he learns how to have an internal reference for validation - that he is precious because he knows he's precious, not because anyone tells him so. because if he's dependent on someone outside of himself to know that, he's vulnerable to the opinions of others for his sense of worth.

That's why you are so smart in getting him to a therapist really quick. And you learning how to remove the element of competition - that for healthy people, love is infinite - your ability to communicate this to him in everything you do will help him as well.

Make sure that even the hint of a vibe that you think his behavior doesn't fit the need is gone. He's dramatic because he's learned that this is what it takes to get that emotional need met. He'll learn to dial down the drama when he sees himself getting what he needs without it.

Ty ka. Very helpful.

SW - Initiate the counseling and be careful not to lead. Tell them that you just want some help making sure this behavior is normal and that you or your ex aren't doing or saying anything that could be part of the problem.

You're doing what you can. I think maybe your son senses that some of situation is out of the hands of the one person he always previously felt safe with - you.

I may have missed it, but have you determined if he even HAS to see his father legally or at what age it will then be up to him?

Thanks for guiding me on how to present to counselor....I was thinking it would be difficult to condense all the issues. I guess I will just present that he hits himself and is showing more aggression in general and then let the counselor ask questions.

I haven't consulted my attorney about whether or not ds HAS to go see his father.....the thing is ds tells me he WANTS to see his father, but he just wants to be allowed to skip if he wants. From all I can tell about visitation, at age 11, he doesn't generally get to pick and choose in that way.

And I totally agree that he knows some things are out of my hands. I was one of the reasons I stayed with his father as long as I did...I wanted to avoid these exact things.

This would have been true of me too....Total lack of relationship with my father.

He does need constant validation. Which I suppose means he isn't getting enough. Every correction given to him--regardless of the tone or my mood or whatever he protests loudly. Lots of growling, slinging body around, saying things like, 'I can never do anything right!' For instance last night at bedtime....I was about to tuck him in and saw that he had left trash all over his counter. So I called him in to clean it up. He does but growls....slings himself around hatefully. We go into his room where clothes are on the floor. I ask him to take them to his hamper. Same reaction. So I pointed out to him that he gets REALLY upset over every direction and correction. He said he can't do anything right. He cried alot while I tried to reassure him. I laid down with him until he went to sleep.

I went to my bed and cried. Dh told me that I DO commend ds a lot. I FEEL like I do. But all ds FEELS is the correction. And it doesn't matter how mild the correction or how lovingly I say it to him. And it will be over house rules I've repeated 1000 times....so it isn't like he doesn't KNOW the rules. Things like, 'no eating outside the kitchen, no clothes on floor, don't leave trash--wrappers and stuff--out. Take your dishes to the sink/dishwasher as you leave the table. Normal guidelines.



He is terribly jealous of dh. Last night I called him in to watch a show with us that I know ds likes. We were all three on the sofa--I was between them. Ds was practically on top of me, snuggling with me. I took my free hand and was rubbing dh's sore neck....ds pulls that entire arm off of dh and puts it on himself. That kind of stuff.



HOW do I communicate to him that love is infinite? That it is multiplied not divided? That we all have different kinds of love for the different people in our lives? He already has the majority of my time and attention. And he isn't ignored just because dh walks in the door.

I would talk with the therapist that one of the things you expect him/her to work on with your son is emotional containment - not stuffing but finding his words.

One thing that helped with my son on the protesting was scripture. I pulled out the New Testament where Jesus teaches, "If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14: 15). I love the whole book of John - the language of it. Chapter 15 is a lesson in abiding in love.

So we'd study that passage together (son started reading scriptures with me when he was 6), I asked him how we show God love - obedience. So when he'd protest, I'd just quietly ask, instead of getting into a power struggle - son - do you love me? How do you show that you love me?

You'll find opportunities to talk with your son about infinite love being a factor of maturity and being closer to God. When we disobey, we become more selfish and unloving toward others. You won't have to point a finger at your X but son will be able to connect the dots that when people do selfish things, their capacity to love is diminished. When they do unselfish things they can become infinite in their ability to love.

More thoughts on this. It's time to teach your son a new lesson. I taught my son fairly early about the emotional bank account. He was two when I read my first Harley book and I read Stephen R Covey's Seven Habits three or four years before son was born, so I was well versed in the concept of emotional bank accounts.

Be careful to teach this as an emotional needs bank account rather than "love bank" account. Since you're wanting to teach him that love can be infinite and multiplied.

My son made this lesson fairly easy because from the first time he was asked what he wanted to be when he grew up, even as early as four years old, he wanted to be a daddy. He didn't see the world from a place of doing, but being.

So when I taught him about the emotional needs bank account, it gave him some words to express his feelings. More words = less acting out.

We'd make a funny sound when there was a deposit or withdrawal to signal a noticeable change in the account. Cha-Ching! when someone made a deposit; a kerplunk! when someone made a withdrawal. Sometimes the kerplunks got kind of loud. But the sound was a signal to pause and become aware of your impact on the other person.

Your son needs to develop the skill of empathy NOW. If you were to say Kerplunk! to him, would he have the capacity or skill to say "I'm sorry"?

When he does something selfish, he needs to be taught that this isn't okay. When he does something unselfish, he needs praise and appreciation.

I'm sorry you've been getting thrashed over your mothering skills. Your son is not a baby. And while his life has been turned upside down and scrambled, it's still HIS life and his reality. Teaching him that someone will compensate for those bad situations won't teach him the resiliency that he needs to not grow into his father!

Teaching him to breathe; to calm himself, to find his words and be courageous enough to speak those words openly and honestly to the person needing to hear them is a tough skill to go through life without.

Then find the happiness and joy that's in the current situation.

Thank you for the practical suggestions. I like that.

He has had a problem with scale for a long time. LOOOONG before the seperation/divorce/remarriage. I have talked to him about scale...we've role played, discussed possible scenarios---say comparing his dog dying to losing on a video game. Asking him to see that those things aren't the same on an emotional reaction scale. I have never tried to get him to stuff his emotions. I have worked VERY hard trying to get him to use words and appropriate levels of reaction for the situation.

So I've tried many things. I admit I get VERY frustrated. I yell at times. But I try very very hard to be calm, kind and loving and to apologize when I lose my temper.

He apologizes. A lot. He acts devastated and yet angry though. Whining, 'I'm soooooorrrryyyy.' Just now he sat down near me to do his piano and there was a stack of papers in his way. He takes them and sets them on top of my hands which are typing. I removed the papers. I said, 'You put those right on top of my hands. Was that polite?' He lowers his head....'nooooo.' Sheesh. I let it go, but that is the kind of thing he does.

We do a lot of Bible reading in this house too. I read over with him a chapter the other night in a book designed for young people about handling one's emotions.

I will just keep working on it. I appreciate being able to vent and ask for help.

An example of his neediness....I just walked by him where he was on the sofa...I had an arm full of clothes out of the dryer that I was about to put down on the love seat and fold. As I walked by he reaches up for a hug. I said, 'I can't hug you while I have an armload of clothes.' He said, 'yes you can! If you love me you can!' (this was pretty lighthearted). I said, 'oh really? Is that the test for if I Love you? If I stop and hug you with my arms full of clothes?' He says, 'Yes! Ok, if you hug me within 10 seconds it means you love me!' Then he begins an actual countdown,...when he got to 5 he says, 'hurry!' So I went over and hugged him.

He was happy. But he exhausts me at times.

My needful, wonderful, lovely, dramatic, and sometimes whiney (though not self-harming daughter) who HATES when I even FROWN in her general direction, seems to do much better with any sort of correction when I find a way to be funny about it.

Of course, funny sometimes disappears just when you need it most. And I'm not suggesting this last incident was funny--just pointing out that maybe you can help him to laugh a little bit more sometimes, kwim?

Like with the paper on the hands: "Aack! It's raining paper! Somebody help me, I've lost my hands!" To which he may have giggled and removed them.

Onlies and first-born carry a burden sometimes... Life can feel SO DARN SERIOUS.

I'm with Telly, that lighthearted stuff like with the laundry stuff is great practice. SW, your son has been through a lot, and it's taking him time to adjust. The stuff at his Dad's house isn't helping him learn how to de-escalate at the moment. But you are teaching him this through humor and lightheartedness.

If I understand correctly, DS had his friend over when this happened? I would think in general he wouldn't act out in front of other kids. Is he gifted? Sometimes those kids just lack social skills because with their smarts they don't need to rely on others the same way other kids do. But they usually pick it up in time.

I understand the embarrassment you may feel. Don't kick yourself for feeling that, just let it pass. You've always put what's best for your son over appearances.

Are you asking was his friend over when he stabbed/scraped himself with the pencil? Yes. That was a week ago. And the FRIEND was pushing some of ds's buttons and that was part of what lead to the melt down.

Is he gifted? Possibly. He's never been tested---but I've wondered for many years if he might be. At the least he is very very bright and he 'sees' things other kids his age miss. The big picture. And it depresses him. Remember in Little Man Tate how he would see the 'world coming to an end' news and get so upset? That is how ds is. He was about 7 when he figured out his dog would most likely be dead before he was a teenager.

Things were nice this weekend....My step sons were here and everyone had a good time. After they went home last night ds watched some tv...and we had friends over with their 4 year old. He played/teased her and was having fun. Even when he was watching tv he would come in and tell us things he was watching---engaging with us. Then the friends left and I told him, 'bedtime' and he melted down. Saying things like, 'The day is over too soon! Now I just have to go to sleep get up and do it all over again.' Isn't he too young to be saying things like that? I tried to reassure him, but he was in a mood where he had a negative response for everything I offered. It gets exasperating. And of course I'm tired as well. He doesn't want to sleep alone...begs me to stay with him. Tells me he is 'so lonely' in the bed alone at night.

Hoping for a good day though.

SW-my son behaves like this as well, except he is younger. Our son has always "updates" us on what's going if we aren't in the room. Last night, I got up to comfort him because his pillow made a funny sound. He is a very emotionally needy kid. And, I hear you that it gets tiring and exasperating. My son gets upset when the "fun" of weekends/school breaks/vacation, etc. ends and we have to go back to the grind.

What works for us is some validation and boundaries. So, it's "Honey, I'm glad to know that you had a good time. Doing what you did with people sounded like fun. It's xx time now. If don't cooperate with bedtime, then we won't have time to read." If the behavior continues, then we say "Well, your behavior is showing us that you cannot handle earlier fun things. If this is how you behave after doing fun things, you are telling us you cannot handle them, and we will have to say "no" to fun things in the future."

I've also found that tickling works well, when a child will hold on to you, not wanting you to leave. My son has told me that my DH is lucky that he has someone to share a bed with at night.

Something that has also helped me as I try to deal with my son is to let go of what I think he should be and accept what he is. When I remind myself to accept the situation, my I deal with things better, even at 2 in the morning, when the pillow makes a funny sound. I also try to remind myself of my son's gifts.

I also try to make small changes in our routine that promotes more of my son's independence. When I was more up on it, we did one change a month. To me that's turtle speed, but then my son doesn't feel like the rules are changing on him.

I've also found that I need to make sure I am taking care of myself, making sure that I'm eating and sleeping decently. I also try to do at least 15 minutes of an activity that calms and focuses me in the morning. I find I'm ready to handle my kids better.

He may just be the kind of kid who needs some sort of transitional activity between bigger activities.

Friend leaves>bedtime

Versus

Friend leaves>leave son alone for 10 minutes to adjust to friend not being there> announcement of bedtime in 10 minutes.

He may not transition well. Again...talk to the counselor about it. This could be a mild bipolar thing (or just him being 11). He may just be a little immature in this area.

Thanks Soolee and IRN. It helps to hear other kids are somewhat like this. He doesn't do transition well....and I know this. But when friends leave late and it is past time for bed it is hard for me...He is in a terrible mood this morning. Not looking forward to this day. I will try to remember that he is who he is and not get so expasperated with him.

Oh and yes, I do believe he is a little immature in some areas.

Maybe he was used to having the stepbrothers in his room for the weekend? What do you think about getting a dog?

He has a dog. She sleeps in his room in her crate. His step-brothers share another bedroom....He always wants to sleep in their room when they are here, but it is too small....they don't like it and there is really no sense in it. The doors are right next to each other.

SW-
We always plan ahead of time when kids are up past bedtime. If it's not planned ahead, it doesn't happen. Meaning, we plan our lives to get our kids in bed on time. Yes, it stinks for us, as bedtime is 7:30. And, we DO give up social visits on account of the bedtime routine.

When bedtime is later, we start discussing it the day before. "Now, remember, tomorrow we have to make adjustments abc because you are doing a special activity." Then it's repeated the day of in the am, and then in the afternoon.

I figure telling the kids once isn't enough.

How old are your kids? I would think that at age 11 ds should be able to bend a little on bedtime routines....especially since he is homeschooled and his wake up time is quite flexible.

But all in all you are right....he needed a transition period last night and he didn't get it.

SW, it sounds like you are doing the best you know how to do so I offer this observation with hesitation. I don't want to imply, in any way, that you're not trying. When I read "I would think that at age 11..." I was reminded of so many things my mom thought *I* should be able to do/know/understand and I just didn't. Flexibility is sometimes a learned skill. And for some kids (and adults), it fades when they're under stress. What�s worse is when a child is advanced in one area, or around other siblings who are doing �just fine� because their weaknesses are held to a higher standard.

I�m probably not making much sense, but it might be a helpful exercise to note, throughout the day, how many throughout the day you feel frustrated with your son�s inadequacy/regression/uncooperative behavior� in any area. And which of these frustrations are possibly accompanied by an expectation that may have been reasonable for him a year ago but temporarily is out of his reach.

It could be that he has too high a need for affection/appreciation and simply needs to grow up (this is my interpretation of how you feel from reading your posts, if I�m wrong forgive me). It could be that he is just saying/doing things for shock value and they�re not really an indication of his personal hurt (this is another sentiment I read from your posts).

It could also be that he is not in touch with his feelings about your living situation (his dad, your new H, other changes) and acting out against himself and you as a method of dispersing the pressure/stress/angst.

I liken it to how my son, when he gets overtired, will scream I hate you or other evil sounding phrases he doesn�t really mean. One time he threw a rampage against the blinds and cut his hand. It scared me half to death! Now every time I see him working back into one of those rages, I remind him to calm himself down because last time he went spastic it hurt really bad and didn�t accomplish his goals. It�s like he forgets, each time, the ultimate result of acting out.

Daisy, I welcome all observations. I'm avoided discussing this with my mom because she is just too close to the situation. Don't know if I mentioned ds blacked his friend's eye, but when I told my mom that she was mad at the other kid!

Anyway, I wasn't saying 'ds is 11 and is old enough' to mean I never expect regressive behavior from him. He is just a little boy still, but as I discussed with him at length Monday evening he IS old enough to begin being responsible for his feelings and how he treats others.

Monday was melt down for us both....we had a long conversation (afterwards) on the drive to piano when I was calm. In that conversation it came out that he is very concerned about how difficult school is getting to be and he is worried he will have to repeat 5th grade. Thanks to the MB words ringing in my ear I didn't say, 'oh please!' I expressed that I was so sorry he was worried about that and I reassured him that of all the things in his life and mine that are uncertain THAT is one thing that is absolutely NOT going to happen. He said, 'really?' I told him I could tell him with absolute certainty he would NEVER have to repeat a grade of school.

He seemed relieved. Me? I'm just perplexed. That this bright, possibly gifted child could entertain for a second that he might have to repeat a grade.

So those are the things I'm trying to wrap my head around.

Daisy,

Thank you for this idea! My son did something similar but it was a 5' x 9' floor to ceiling mirror and he punched himself in the mirror and cracked the mirror and cut his hand slightly (thankfully, it did shatter and cut him all over). I will use your suggestion in the future when I see him getting mad.

Sometimes I think boys this age, on the precipice of puberty are possibly having surges of testosterone and could use help with channeling their anxiety/anger. Maybe a punching bag or running or something else harmless but physical. Karate, maybe, would help with concentration and personal control (?)

SW...I would probe a bit and ask him if something occurred recently to make him worry about having to repeat the grade. Perhaps someone said something or he read about it or he found out that a friend had to repeat a grade, and he was letting it worry him.

I'd remind him how much better he felt after your conversation with him, how he allowed that to worry him, when talking about it helped him feel better pretty quickly. w

It's tough at this age. If nothing else, going through a bit of a laundry list of possible issues with him weekly could make your own bond with him stronger and may head off some anxiety.

I think if you can demonstrate that you're a good listener and won't manipulate or invalidate his feelings, he will always know he can come to you. ((SW))

SW-
My kids are 7 and under.

BUT, my 7 year old NEEDS more sleep than the average kid, and has a pretty steady wake up time of between 6 and 7 every morning. Even when the kid can sleep in. Trust me, I see plenty of kids younger than my oldest that are in bed much later, and who have the ability to watch fireworks on the 4th of July and stay up for New Years Eve.

Teens still need a ton of sleep, something like 8-9 hours of sleep a night. So, can your 11 year old bend one night? It depends, and you know best. I know mine couldn't.

I'm a big protector of my kid's sleep, particularly with my older one. Because I would rather give up a few social activities so that my kids are rested and less likely to act out then have them over tired and acting out. But, that's just my parenting preference.

You might find something else helpful, it's more related to addiction recovery, but it helps me regulate my emotions. It's called H.A.L.T. If your son is on the path of melting down, maybe encourage him to do some checking of himself. Is he hungry? (H) Angry (A) Lonely (L) or Tired (T)? That might help him choose some more constructive behaviors.

He consistantly gets 10 hours of sleep. He needs it and always has. However, thanks to homeschooling he doesn't have to wake up at 6 or even 7. It is usually 9. So he gets enough sleep. We aren't party animals or anything, but by the time he goes to his dad's every Wed, Bible services every Thursday and then every other weekend staying up at his dad's on Friday night....well, he is used to going to bed later than the average kid.

I LOVE the HALT idea. Thank you. Off to tell him about it now.

He is in a great mood this a.m. Hoping to have a good day with him.

I'm with you on protecting their sleep.

My son has always needed less sleep than others (ugh), but he needs to be in bed and out of bed at a certain time. Strangely, he can get the same total number of hours of sleep, but if bedtime is pushed back for some reason there will still be problems the next day. Over time, I�ve found fewer and fewer activities that warrant my keeping up past the time his little body wants to be in bed.

Oh, and I love your HALT model� it's actually something I ask myself when I begin to feel "off" angry, irritated, or just notice I�m eating way more than I should.

Just checking in. Today ds and I took off school. I took him for his yearly check up. Spoke with the doctor a bit about ds's headaches and barely touched on the anger/aggression issue....doctor was happy to hear I am taking ds to counseling beginning next week. He went on a bit with son about the divorce stuff....oddly he told me the doctor scared him really bad. Now before any of you think there is something wrong with the doc...no. I was in the room the entire time. Ds stayed clothed the entire time. I think the doc felt of ds's belly below the jean line briefly..nothing untoward at all. Apparently it was the way the doc spoke to ds...about the divorce and ds hitting his friend....he is a matter of fact man but NOT scary at all IMO. I did however, bite my tongue and just tell ds I am sorry he was frightened. I didn't scream out, 'what is wrong with you! He has been your dr since birth! He isn't SCARY!' I didn't even tell ds he was being too sensitive. When I focus on what I shouldn't say, I find I say very little...I just tried to reassure him that he was safe at all times and I am sorry he felt scared.

Then I took ds to his favorite restaurant, bought him a new suit and took him to a big KIDS sale that runs twice a year at the expo center. He had his own money but I told him before we went in that there would be no new purchases of any gun of any kind--not even nerf. He has gone a little overboard with that stuff lately...I was pretty lax about it for a while thinking I didn't want to be the uncool mom, but basically that just comes back to bite ya in the end and so I'm pulling the reigns in. I was ok with nerf guns....but then it got EXTREME nerf...have any of you seen the nerf guns lately? Crazy...like machine guns and such. So anyway, I am not making him get rid of them for now...just not letting him buy more. Well, he got inside and started gathering that kind of stuff...laser guns and nerf....as if I had not just said NO. So he got really mad, but I held my ground. I bought a foosball table there and he could barely be happy about that for being so unhappy that I said no to the guns. But he got over himself and we came on home to get his dog so he could go to his dad's.

We had a nice conversation at home. He asked me what he was suppose to refer to homewrecker as. That led to an entire conversation about her and how I act about her and her role in the destruction of our lives as we once knew it. He tried to tell me I should be forgiving...like the Bible says...I said, 'Did you know we aren't required to forgive everyone?' He didn't know that. I said, 'suppose someone broke into our house and stole everything you own. They took your Itouch, your new laptop, all your legos and your dog. You found them and confronted them and they said, 'sorry,' but they kept your stuff. Would you think they were really sorry? Really asking for forgiveness?' I could tell I made a big impression with him. I pointed out that I don't sit around bad mouthing her 24/7, but to expect that I will pretend that her continued existance in my son's life is 'ok' is too much to expect of anyone. I told him it was too much to expect of ds too. I encouraged him to tell his dad how he feels. He told me that he had already told his dad that he hates her. I told him that if his dad gets rid of her and gets a new girlfriend that things could be really differnt.

He did tell me that it makes him upset when I am upset about her. So we agreed that I would not act all upset about her...

I am trying to listen to him while not brushing it all under the rug like it is all ok now.

SW, I think we're all in the same boat. Hold has posted about incidents with his daughter about this age on his thread. My OD is a little older, but went through some similar stuff at your son's age, but we didn't know until it all hit the fan last year. I wonder if the way we catered to the dysfunction in our marriages for so long instead of getting our kids to higher ground sooner gave our kids much more to struggle to be resilient against. Maybe they had to try so hard to stay resilient in those situations that they are shell-shocked now. I don't know. What's done is done. All I can do is get a life in the present, like you and the others here do, and help my kids in their effort to do the same.


So you're making a reasonable effort. And taking him to the IC Monday.


So it's not about being attached to you specifically. He's just still learning that we don't get all our preferences. Seeing how his dad was coddled for so long, it makes sense that this is taking a little longer for your son to get that message. But you guys are doing and saying the things to get over the hurdle. Hang in there!

I know it's tough, but I'm proud of you for making the effort-I'm sure it will pay off dividens. {{{SW}}}

SW,
I have followed this thread but didn't feel like I had much to offer. Something you said reminded me of a book I read not too long ago which had a definite effect on the way I talk to my kids and how I look at my parenting style. It may offer you some insight and it's not too long of a book. I believe someone here recommended it (I generally don't just pick a book off the shelf). It's called "Between Parent and Child." It made me see why many of my parenting techniques were ineffective and unfortunately possibly harmful. I wish I had read it when my S14 was much younger. Fortunately he seems to be smart enough to have overcome many of my poor parenting skills. .

After reading the book I'm already seeing changes in the way we all communicate with each other, and I've felt a lot calmer in my interactions with them.

Opt

Thank you Opt. I do like to know about good books out there. Making note of this one for my next trip to the library.

As for the consult with the counselor....it went well. He asked LOTS of background questions...WAY back...like my childhood and ds's father's childhood. The weirdest one he asked IMO was how much weight I gained during pregnancy with ds. I told him that was a strange question...he grinned and said he would come back to that and tell me why later, but he forgot I guess.

I got the feeling he quickly saw/felt that ds is probably high strung...well he actually used that expression....and he said he is probably very bright (he is) and that often 'those kids' have a real problem managing the pressure they put upon themselves. Thus the hitting of himself. He was reluctant to classify it as 'self harming'---we aren't to the cutting phase or anything like that. Just spur of the moment wacking himself in the head or what ever.

My stepsons have been here since Sunday---it is their spring break--and things have gone pretty good....but it has been stressful for me---mostly dealing with ds's over the top reactions to everything. For instance, last night...we had spent the entire day on a nice day trip to a drive through safari. Everyone had a good time. Boys all got along. By the time we got showers and I helped sync Itouches it was after 10 and everyone needed to be in bed. I said, 'come on son, let's get you to bed.' As soon as I said that, 'dh said, 'you too boys. Brush your teeth and I will be right in to say prayers.' So ds and I walk 10 steps to his room and he flounces on the bed and complains sullenly that he 'always has to be the first one to go to bed.' Things like that.

Anyway, we will see how today goes. Dh back to work and I have the boys alone.

Thank you. Yes to the bolded part. What is strange about ds is that he behaves at times like a spoiled kid--only child--whose mom caters to him. He is of course and only child---but I am not a caterer or a coddler. I guess just the nature of having him when I was 35 and no other children....SAHM....that he was by default the center of his universe.

When I described my son to the counselor I had a flashback to myself being just that way. I told the counselor that...that my son is my personality nearly made over. He asked me how I got past those intense behaviors. I told him that my mom was not a coddler...she was very likely to say, 'get over yourself.' But that current thinking is that saying things like that is somehow damaging to a kid. I think in my case growing up that my mom's ACTIONS showed that we WERE the most important thing to her. She did everything with us, and for us. She didn't date or leave us with sitters to run around with the girls.

So I don't know...I guess me getting remarried is the 'thing' that is different. He is still always with me. Except for our honeymoon, we haven't left ds at anytime. If he isn't with his dad he is with me/us.

Maybe it all just takes a little time.

SW - It sounds like your session went well. Do you feel better after the session? What are your feelings?

I was also wondering if you're giving your son a 5-minute warning yet before you tell him he has to do something? Seems like he's a little bit oppositional if he isn't forewarned or given choices.

I'm not saying you should have to do that. What a parent says should be enough, but I'm just saying that it might be worth experimenting with. If all he needs is a bit of a warning to make YOUR life easier and him happier, and as long as it doesn't give him an err of entitlement to keep pushing for more, it could be a good tool.

I have almost ALWAYS done this. The warning sets him off.

Absolutely exhausting week. It was spring break for ds and the local districts. Monday we had company over for tacos. Simple meal, and was suppose to be just a single female friend of ours and one of her two kids. Ended up being her, one daughter, another woman and her 2 kids, and another couple with their young daughter.

Things seemed to go fine, but late in the evening the friend's 13 year old (same one who ds blacked his eye)did a silly thing that blew ds's stack. Have to tell it just so you all can see the things that cause ds to come undone. Friend's 4 year old sister had a doll...and ds put a bag over doll's head...the 13 year old brother brought it into the kitchen where we all were and the mom said, 'don't do that to your sister's doll, you will just aggravate her.' 13 year old says,'SW's ds11 did it!' Well, apparently, he and ds had a conversation in the other room and ds said, 'don't take that in there my mom will get mad at me.' 13 year old friend says, 'oh I won't tell you did it.' So when 13 year old tells us all 60 seconds later that ds HAD done it to the doll...ds just yelled to his friend, 'I hate you!' and stomped off to his room.

Grown ups were all 'huh?' because it was not a big deal at all....but to ds it was because he felt betrayed by his friend.

So second time recently he has told someone he 'hates' them. Then that night at bedtime more of the 'I hate my life, everyone is mean to me, no one likes me,' type of sentiment from ds.

Tuesday night was ok I think. Then Wed for visitation with his dad...bad bad bad again. He spent 1 1/2 hours of his 3 hour visitation in his room in a corner for refusing to apologize to OW and then for telling her to shut up he wasn't talking to her and then refusing to apologize for that. His dad wouldn't let him eat until he apologized. His dad threatened to give all ds's toys to OW's son. Ds told his dad, 'I will apologize because you strike fear in my heart, but I am not really sorry.' To which OW says, (with a smile/smirk) 'Your mom told you to say that didn't she?' To which ds says to her, 'Shut up OW, I'm not talking to you!'

Then XH takes ds to his room with OW calling after him, 'Spank him!'

He took the phone out of ds's room and wouldn't let him call me.

So that night when ds got home it was really bad. I stayed with him until he went to sleep...took about an hour. He was so upset...told me he wanted to go to sleep and not wake up.

Then yesterday we had a great day, ended up with friends at McDonalds...but when we got home one of the kids had hurt his feelings and to ds the entire time was ruined.

Ugh. Ds's session with counselor was this morning. I think it went well, but ds is obsessing about every little thing the counselor had him do and every question he asked him.

I think you're probably doing the right thing by having him go to counseling. Does your XH know that you are taking him to these sessions? Wondering how he reacted.

Is your son letting the counselor know how his times with his dad and OW are going?

Today was ds's first visit. I haven't told his dad yet....but will have to. I want to wait until after ds's weekend with his dad.

I think today's visit with counselor was counselor getting general feel. He had ds draw a picture and then tell counselor about it. He drew a pic of a girl and then told the counselor she was bored. That there was nothing around her...nothing to do.

Counselor did some basic testing....math, spelling, memory, reading.

He asked ds if he had three wishes what would they be. Ds said, For my family to have immortality, to be able to breathe under water and to fly/levitate like Superman.

Then when ds was telling me about it he said he felt really bad for the first wish. ?? He doesn't know why he feels bad for that wish.

Then when ds was telling me about it he said he felt really bad for the first wish. ?? He doesn't know why he feels bad for that wish.

Maybe he thinks that with more time, things can be fixed. Do you think he still holds out hope that the family could somehow be intact again?

Maybe he is afraid of someday being all alone.

You know, SW...I think it's hard for any kid going through divorce, but it could be especially hard if that child has other issues that were already there. I think I would ask the doctor on the side what sort of things they are looking for.

This situation below is ugly, SW. I feel so bad for you and your son having to be in that environment. I wish I had something to offer, but I don't. All I can say is that your little guy sure does need your strength and consistency because his father clearly has none.
opt

Ds will have another session and then I will meet privately with counselor a week after that. I will be able to ask him then what he thinks...but not sure how much I will get out of him since they say it is confidential for the kids...?? Anyone have any experience with how the counselor can guide me in helping ds without letting me know what all ds said?

I didn't grill ds at all but he has been pretty free with what went on. He has worried all morning that he did the session 'wrong' somehow. And he wanted a big hug because he is so sad that he is such a baby he has to go to the counselor.

Soolee what sort of things are you thinking might have already been present with the info I've posted?

SW...I'm not a medical professional, and in the end that will have to be something that your doctors talk to you about after interviewing your son and doing their own assessments. I would be very careful to discuss anything privately with them.

I think there are a lot of childhood syndromes that can go untreated into adulthood, undiagnosed, when if treated could have made that person's childhood go smoother - dyslexia and ADHD being just two, for example. As a parent, you can drive yourself crazy with worry over possibilities. I think that's why we have professionals to separate the wheat from the chaff.

That being said, I have also experienced situations in health care where you really do have to be your own advocate. Doctors don't know everything, and they can get it wrong or overlook something. I've had it happen several times.

I think if he were my son and there was a history of Bipolar, I'd make darn sure he was screened for that, along with Asperger's. Both of those impact socialization and transitioning capabilities. Other than that, I have nothing.

It could just be how your boy is, his little personality given these trying circumstances, and nothing wrong at all!

What is being done about finding out at what age your son will have a say about visitation? It is unfortunate that OW is coaching your XH on parenting. I think your son's counselor should know about that.

I will be sure the counselor knows about the OW being involved in my XH's parenting. Makes me sick.


When I met with counselor last week I did tell him about my brother being diagnosed bi-polar....however, I do doubt my brother's diagnosis...I think his drug use from early teen for 20 years triggered or created his issues. And of course one wonders why he went to drugs in the first place, but I don't want to get on that merry go round of thought.

Also, my brother and I do not have the same bio dad...those issues seem to be through his bio dad's side of the family, so I really doubt the genetic component.

Okay. I thought you said before something about your ex mother in law having had issues, so that was where my line of thinking was.

He is your baby. You know him best. ((SW))

Ug. I forgot about her. She is indeed CRAZY---my guess NPD. She damaged her children...but hopefully that is not inheritable...

I've been fighting with XH via text all afternoon. Started out me reminding him our written agreement says ds can call either parent any time he wishes.

He is upset with me for poisoning ds against OW. Whatever. As if ds can't see it for what it is on his own. Oh, well, I DID have the nerve to tell ds the truth as to why his dad and I were divorcing.

SW...If nothing productive is going on with the texts and the discussion is destructive, cut the conversation off. Remember you have the option to detach from the conversation and tell him that you cannot talk at the moment but that you'll be able to talk more in 30 minutes if he wants to call back. Give him a time out, without telling him it's a time out.

It's really hard for someone to fight when they're doing it alone. Thirty minutes will help him regroup. If he starts up again...uh oh...you have to go again. Rinse and repeat.

As for OW, I think a child can hear it once in an age appropriate manner and then for his questions to be answered once but that should be enough. More than that is probably more than a child should shoulder. I don't think children should hear it over and over or be expected to hate the third person. I think children need room to be children, the resilient and forgiving little people that they are, and if we force them to process our own pain over and over, we may be holding up their own healing by making them feel frightened, worried, or guilty.

I think when kids are too young to process a trauma, they should be given the freedom to shelve it until they're older - when they can take it down, examine it, and process it from an adult perspective. If he's asking questions that you've answered 50 times, he may need gentle reminding that he already knows the answer, that it's time to go back to being a kid, that Mom is more than fine with how things turned out.

(meaning your second marriage)

SW...I don't mean that you shouldn't answer new questions, but when he's asking the same questions over and over, and he knows the answer...he is either not being reassured to his satisfaction or he is obsessing, imo.

I would make sure that he knows that he will always be taken care of, will always have you there to take care of him. His clothes will always be bought. He will always have food. He will always have your hugs and kisses, and that his stepfather is eager to be his friend and maybe someday to be like a second dad to him.

It could be, too, that he needs time alone with you, apart from your husband and stepsons, doing things outside the house.

Also, you may have not seen my previous question, but have you looked into at what age your son will begin to have a legal say in whether he sees his biological father or not?

You mean, "put a bag over OW's head"


SW, I am not a medical professional either, but it seems screamingly obvious to me what's going on with your son. But I will not comment further if it's just going to upset you.

SW...I am sure that you have told your son that lots of grownups talk to counselors too?

I used to be afraid of dolls, to be honest. I only had a few and they could not be in the bedroom with me or I could not sleep...

I wonder if he was just creeped out by the doll like some people are creeped out by clowns, and wanted to cover its face.

Yes I reassured him about the counselor. He went back and forth from acting like he enjoyed it, to being afraid he answered questions wrong. I reassured him all day long, every time he brought it up, that the counselor was just getting to know him and those weren't right or wrong type questions...well, the math/spelling/reading, but I again reassured him it was just to get an idea of where he is academically.

Oh, the doll thing was just two big boys being silly with the little sister's doll. It was nothing. They thought it was funny that they covered her face. The part that upset my son was that his friend told son he would not tell the grown ups that ds put the bag on the dolls head and then IMMEDIATELY did tell us.

I am not going to be upset. I know you have said before that you think I am somehow telling my son that his feelings are wrong. I don't know how to convince you that I am not doing that. It is true that I sometimes think he says one thing and then acts another way. Surely you realize I am capable of keeping my thoughts to myself at those times right?

Or is it something else you have in your mind? I assume it will be something I am doing wrong if you think it will upset me...I don't know. Anyway, go ahead.

SW, what I want to do is go through your thread and give you my gut reactions to what you are posting. You can use or not, of course, as you wish. I am working today but I will do this as soon as I can.

ty

I haven't looked into it. I do remember now that I told ds I would so I need to do that. Well, I looked around on line a lot but can't find a definitive answer. My attorney will know more specifically the judge in our case would feel about it.

I reassured him a lot yesterday. He was exhausted from being up late Thursday (services) and up early Friday for the counselor appt. His dad came to our house to pick up ds's dirt bike and had plans to take him to a friend's house to ride today. About 2 hours before XH got here ds was already saying he didn't want to go. We just hung out yesterday together....had breakfast at a coffee shop and stopped by a couple of stores before coming home and relaxing.

Your son has not done any of this to himself. It's the adults here, mostly your XWH and his OW, who are making this hard on him. Son has no choice and he knows this.


From what you have posted, Son knows he would be severely punished for saying something like this. Why would you tell him to do such a thing? Yes, his father *should* hear this - but you and Son and all the rest of us know what will happen if Son says one word.

I am confused about why you would say this, so I can only imagine how confused Son is. To me, this is leaving him completely unprotected while you encourage him to walk straight into punishment. Why are you not protecting him instead??



This is 100% emotional abuse. Again, is there nothing that can be done in court to protect your son from this?


Your XWH's relationship with Son is 100% HIS problem. From what you have posted, you are failing to protect Son from emotional abuse but are insisting on respect for his abuser. I'm confused. I can only imagine how this seems to Son.


This is utterly sickening. I do not know how you can sit still with your child being subjected to this by adults who are supposed to be caring for him. I couldn't. Call the cops, but that kid is not going back to treatment like that.

Of course he doesn't want to go to his father's house. Who in their right mind *wants* to be subjected to bullying and belittling by someone who is supposed to love them?


It bothers me greatly that you dismiss his reaction to bullying and cruelty as "drama". How do you expect him to act? What do you expect him, seriously, to do or say? He will be severely punished over there if he stands up to those two. What choice does he have?

He is sensitive enough to be terribly hurt by his father's actions but strong enough to be angry at the injustice of it all. He's caught in an awful place.


From what you have posted, your XWH has the maturity of a two-year-old and is a sickening example of a father. Sorry, but that's how he's coming across. Your son seems to agree.


Do you really think he's just making this up for "drama"? Again, why is this not being taken to court to get something changed here?

It sounds to me like you expect your son to just find some way to deal with this on his own. He is too young, too immature, too sensitive and far too much caught in the middle to be able to deal with any of it on his own.

That leaves you.


Sorry, but what you have posted sounds nothing at all like love. "Control" and "ownership" are not love. Not even close.

And I am wondering why you have so much contact with XWH. Getting an IM for anything that *has* to be arranged regarding your son, and speaking to XWH only in case of the direst emergency, would almost certainly go a long way towards shutting some of this down.

The part of your post where he calls you, in the presence of the homewrecker, about what size clothes Son wears just sounds like a guy flaunting his harem. Again, sickening. Shut it down. Others use an IM and so can you.


What was your response to this?


There should be ZERO discussion on this. This man is not your husband. That means he's on his own as far as being Son's father and no longer has your help and support. He forfeited that right when he left the marriage.

Again, shut it down. I think this is 90% of the problem. You are only allowing your Son to be crushed more and more in the middle by your keeping in contact with your XWH.

I would recommend:

1) Go back to court and see if you can get, at the very least, supervised visitation on grounds of emotional abuse of your Son by your XWH and his OW. I don't care how much XWH will kick and scream. That is NOT your concern. Your Son is. Do it.

2) Shut down communication between you and XWH. The two of you are DIVORCED. (And you are re-married - ?) If you say you have to stay in communication "for the sake of Son" - well, as somebody said, how's that workin' for ya? And more importantly, how's it workin' for your Son?

3) Immediately look into Parallel Parenting versus "co-parenting". Again: Co-parenting is for Married Couples. You cannot have it both ways. Look what is happening to your son when you try to "co-parent" with a man to whom you are not married and who was happy to blow up your family. It can't be done. For evidence, just look at your Son.

That's the best I got. Just some things to think about. But I'll bet a lot of this can be traced straight back to trying to have a family relationship with a man who is NOT your husband. It never, ever works, no matter what people try to tell you. Be married or be divorced. You cannot have it both ways.

ITA!!!!!!!!!!!

100%

That poor boy

GET HIM OUT

Your XWH is toxic to you and to your son.

This is how I ended up having such a hatred for my father in my adult life. He came to live with us, and no matter how nasty he was to me, if I asked grandparents to do something about it, they would say I wasn't respecting him enough, that I needed more time with him.

And he continued to belittle me.

And call me a child.

Protect your son, please.

Mulan (and :)ingWoman)
I have been reading along on this thread helpless and perplexed and frustrated. The advise above (and the paragraphs leading to it) makes a lot of sense to me. As a young boy I found myself in some abusive situations and, to me, Mulan's post accurately portrayed what your SW's little boy is going through. I'm not blaming my parents and I know they did the best they could, but I do think if they had protected me better I would not have wound up marrying someone who would neglect and abuse me emotionally. SW I hope you can find the strength to take Mulan's words to heart and put a plan in place that will keep your son from being subjected to the abusive nature of your wxh (and his nasty companion).

Opt

I think, SW, that if I were you, I would call your lawyer and just ask for a consultation. Make a list of questions. Ask what your son's rights are. Ask what his father's rights are. Ask how a counselor's opinion would hold up. That's where I would start.

This is great advice.

great advice. Not sure what state you are in but the lawyer would know what is best in this case. Also in most states the division of children and youth services has a number you can call and ask questions. I have utilized this but i also now how a friend who works there. They would be able to help to an extent as well.

Again I do not know why you think I am trying to have a family relationship with XH. We are not even friendly. Barely civil when the rare occasion happens that we come face to face.

It seems to me you are giving me conflicting advice. One the one hand don't tell ds to tell his dad how he feels because he will be punished. (btw, he isn't punished by his dad for telling him how he feels. His dad just ignores it) Would the alternative be to tell ds to just suck it up and deal with it? Short of taking this back to court I have NO idea what you think I should be doing exactly. I have next to no chance of getting supervised visitation based upon my XH's treatment of our son.

Maybe the counselor and my attorney will have some ideas.[/color]

It depends on the jurisdiction, but for the most part I think SW is right that going back to court is likely futile. AFAIK her husband has no known history of abuse. I'd be shocked if a court ordered supervised visitation based on what she's described. I mean, sure, talk to the lawyer, but bottom line: It is not illegal nor is it (generally) considered child abuse to be a jerk to your kids.

TY! And I highly suspect this is what my attorney will tell me. At this point I mainly want to hear from the attorney at what age ds can choose to stop visitation. XH seems to think it is 18. I doubt that, but don't know what the real age is...

I have a friend whose 14 year old has refused to go to see her dad for 4 months. He won't press the issue though because he owes 1000s in cs.

I think by what is often called "mature minor" stage - usually around 16 - kids' desires are granted much more weight.

The thing is, courts are inherently conservative, and looking to hedge their bets. The more conservatve (read: cautious and long-term) approach is to do everything to facilitate some kind of continued relationship with both parents. Even if things are difficult for a period.

I think you are right. Hopefully though if I continue to document everything, if ds continues to NOT want to go I can get something done.

I agree. I'd still want to hear from the lawyer how much weight a counselor's opinion would hold, though.

SW...I think if there is no proven abuse, you're probably going to have a hard time having visitation reduced or supervised.

Where did your son get the verbiage about 'striking fear in my heart'? Did he overhear you and your husband talking? That is not typical wording for a child that age.

And not only do I think chances are slim of getting visitation reduced, I also do not want to stir up a hornets nest about visitation because XH has so little now.

Well....my son has an unusually big vocabulary. However, I asked him just now where he heard that and he said his video game.

In some states it's 12...you would have to look it up.

I have Googled it. Can't find much AR law.

Again:

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

More than one, if needed.

Let the IM cover everything - EVERYTHING - including the homeschooling.

Throwing up your hands and making excuse after excuse and saying "Sorry, but I just can't do anything" only throws the burden squarely on your son. It sure seems to me like the adults in this situation have decided that Son will just have to suck it up and find a way to fix this on their own, because they're not going to change a thing.

Again:

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

This would get your son out of his impossible position of being crushed between you, his father and the homewrecker. REMOVE YOURSELF from this unholy threesome and take a huge load off of your son.

How to do that?

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

And please don't tell me the courts won't allow it. That's baloney and just another excuse. Many, many divorced parents on MB use IMs in order to protect their children from situations just like this one. Your XWH could still call you in case of genuine emergency. You could even get a separate phone that is only for him to call.

But that's up to you. It is not your son's responsibility to make the adults in this awful situation happy, but all of you are pressuring him to do so. That's not acceptable by any stretch. If you cannot see what that's doing to him, that I don't know what else I could possibly say.

I found this.



So all you really have to do is get a good judge, from what it looks like...

I agree with the above and I am not asking my son to make me happy! I am sorry to be dense, but how will an intermediary fix the the issues we have?

The problems we have are from ds being unhappy while he is at his dad's. Are you suggesting I get a third party to listen to my son instead of ME listening to my son? I guess I am just not following.

XH and I do not have contact. We barely even lay eyes on each other at drop off pick ups.

I have hardly thrown my hands up with excuse after excuse. I have taken him to the doctor, and to a counselor. I am documenting the way he describes how he is treated at his dads. I am consulting with my attorney next week.

I just don't see how an intermediary will fix my son's problems. How will that change the way he is treated at his dads. Are you suggesting I not be told of it by son? That I should not KNOW what is going on with son?

The above is for residency....not sure if it is the same for visitation.

Hi SW,

Reading the responses, I really feel for you in this latest incident. It�s like his �betrayal radar� is so sensitive right now that even the little things trigger huge reactions. Like the ocean after a storm- it looks immediately calm on the surface, but it takes a long time for all the latent energy of the water to go down. The slightest provocation can stir it right back up. Who knows how long it will take to calm his �betrayal radar� back to normal.

Also, I�d like to echo the suggestion to ask the counselor about Asperger�s . My son has autistic tendencies. Though my research leads me to believe he is not autistic, per se, because he is quite social, he still exhibits behaviors and some of the coping methods I discovered for auties/aspies really help him. And me too, lol!

Finally, I�m curious about the below comment. I agree with you that without documented proof of abuse (hm, the OW comment about spanking� do you have documentation of that? I agree with spanking, personally, but many courts don�t� that may be an angle you can use).


But what I don�t understand is why the concern about XH having so little? Seems like you�d want him to have less. What do you think would happen if you sent DS there less often? Like, on the next visitation tell him, I�m sorry, DS has ABC function and can�t come this week? What would XH do?

And is that, possibly, a way to entice DS to be more respectful of them when he�s in XH�s house? For example, �DS, if you get through this next visitation w/o sassing your dad and OW, I will see about cancelling the next one (or insert his favorite activity). I am NOT trying to justify how badly they appear to be treating him. But I wonder if he was less sassy would it be easier to get along. This is an excellent life lesson, and he will need to learn it eventually.

{{{SW}}}

I gather the fear is that XH would go for MORE visitation.

Generally, it's not a good idea to flout court orders.

Yes, this is what I meant. I honestly would not care if XH saw ds NONE if ds didn't care (and he doesnt seem to). If I rock the boat with regards to visitation, XH could go back to court and get standard visitation. Right now it is exactly like I negotiated to fit our lifestyle and activities. For instance, ds doesn't have Saturday sleepovers at his dad's so that ds never has to miss a Sunday morning service. I have all our religious services listed out in our visitation schedule...if something falls on XH's time---I get ds anyway.

I've thought I should try to get ds to not sass or be more respectful of his dad...but Mulan acts as if I am sentencing ds to torture and abuse by doing that. This thread has been in my mind for days. I want to do what is best for ds....and although all of us agree that the way ds is being treated is despicable...I do not believe it rises to the level considered to be child abuse by a court of law. As someone said, 'being a jerk of a father is not against the law.'

Ds is now throwing up. 2 nights in a row. I am nearly sure it is nerves. He asked me today if he could go back to see his therapist early...:) A good sign I think that he feels comfortable with him. He goes back Friday morning.

Being respectful doesn't mean being a doormat. You can teach your son to learn to speak his truth-his boundaries, without being sassy about that. In our house, it is perfectly legitimate for our children to identify and express their feelings to us. My older one is pretty emotionally sensitive, and will come right out and tell us when we've hurt his feelings, or he's feeling frustrated about something that happened between us.

We don't tolerate sass, but we do tolerate rational conversation. I would not consider a statement of "I'm feeling sad right now" to be disrespectful or sassy. Or, something like, "I get scared when there's yelling." I don't see the disrespect or sassiness in that. Or "I'm throwing up in the evenings before I have to visit you." It's a sharing of a fact. Again, I'm not sure how this translates into being sassy.

There's a difference between teaching your son to express his feelings and boundaries nicely and teaching him that he isn't allowed to have his feelings at all, or that somehow his feelings aren't legitimate. I'm sure that you don't feel good if someone were to tell you that what you are feeling isn't legitimate? So, why would we expect that our children would feel safe and valued when we are telling them that what they are feeling and their experiences are wrong or not valid?

I don't think he is being told by anyone that his feelings are not valid. He talked to his dad on the phone 2 nights ago. I thought he did a great job of articulating his feelings to his dad..he was adamant but respectful except for the part where he said, 'I'm tired of this conversation and I'm hanging up now!' And he did...his dad called back and they talked a bit more and then ds said, 'I'm tired of this conversation dad--can we hang up now?' Much better...and I told him all that.

XH told him that he would be watching for the OW's son doing things against ds. Ds told him, 'I don't believe you will do anything if you do see it!'

Several things like that....after the phone call we had supper and about an hour later ds threw up. And he threw up the next night too.

When I've mentioned that I told ds to tell his dad how he feels about stuff Mulan says that she can't understand why I would do that because I am doing it knowing ds will be punished. I don't know that. I dont think ds is being punished for speaking his mind.

And I do believe I should teach him to be respectful to his dad 'even though he doesn't deserve it.' I also tell him that I HATE that his dad is often treating him so poorly and allowing OW and her son to treat him bad too...I explain the court system to him and that my hands are tied to some extent BUT that he should keep telling me whatever he wants to tell me because if things get worse I want to know. He asked me to talk to his dad about that last incident....oh I just remembered the other night I heard his dad say, 'I will keep an eye on things but you are going to have to stop running home and telling your mom every little thing that happens.' Ds interupted him and said forcefully, 'So I shouldn't tell my mom what is going on!!? Is that what you are saying Dad, that I should NOT tell my MOM what is going on?' Well that stopped XH dead in his tracks.

Tonight is visitation....ds is already dreading it. And I am doing my best to put a good spin on it.

'I will keep an eye on things but you are going to have to stop running home and telling your mom every little thing that happens.' Ds interupted him and said forcefully, 'So I shouldn't tell my mom what is going on!!? Is that what you are saying Dad, that I should NOT tell my MOM what is going on?' Well that stopped XH dead in his tracks.

Sounds like he was on speaker phone and caught on that you were listening?

I also tell him that I HATE that his dad is often treating him so poorly and allowing OW and her son to treat him bad too

SW...it is just my humble opinion, and I definitely don't want to upset you, but the above sounds off to me. Do you see the above statement to your son as helpful or necessary in some way?

Do you process this as a way to validate for him what he needs to hear?

Do you think there is any way that you can change the visitation so that your son is not exposed to the OW and her son? So that he has his father to himself, and so that they can navigate and build a healthier relationship without her presence/influence?

He was on speaker phone and it was no secret I could hear. He ALWAYS puts it on speaker phone because HE wants to. I have never asked him to. Or did you mean XH caught on that I was listening? I don't know about that. He knows ds prefers speaker phone, so I would assume he would assume I was listening.


So confused. When ds comes home and tells me he hates his dad's house and then lists all the things that happened that made him feel bad...what am I SUPPOSE to say? I honestly want to know. Sometimes I FEEL like saying, 'son, suck it up.' But I want him to be validated that he IS being treated badly. If it were ANYONE else treating him that way it would NOT happen again. It isn't as if I draw this stuff out of him. I am not just sitting around waiting for a chance to say, 'oh poor baby, your daddy is so mean!'

But what else could I say that WOULD be helpful or necessary? I listen quietly while he recounts things....I don't punctuate everything with my feelings....but in the end I do hug him and tell him I hate that things are bad for him there.


Well, yes that would be ideal. Unfortunately, *I* can't change a court order. XH gets to be the parent when he has ds for visitation and I have no control over what he does or who ds is exposed to (barring dangerous or illegal situations). Lately, I have asked repeatedly that he just spend his 78 hours a month with ds without the OW---he continues with OW and her son there. Ds has asked repeatedly (lately) that OW and her son NOT come over. XH did spend Friday evening and Sat with ds alone, but Sunday she was there again. Oddly enough, former neighbors tell me that OW and her son are NEVER (or rarely) there when ds is not.

XH told me via text the other day to 'get used to it, because OW and her son aren't going anywhere.'

We have to leave the house in 15 mins to get ds to his dad's. He has turned sour and when I ak him what is wrong he tells me, 'I don't want to go to dads!!' I've largely ignored/changed the subject....

Makes me sick though.

I feel badly that you're in this situation. I will elaborate more on my thoughts tomorrow.

Oddly enough, former neighbors tell me that OW and her son are NEVER (or rarely) there when ds is not.

That is strange.

I think the idea is to make DS get used to it...?

Not following you...are you saying *I* should be making ds 'get used to' being at his dad's house?

No, I mean when it was said that OW and OWDS was usually not around when DS wasn't around, that your XWH was probably trying to make him get used to OW and OWDS if they usually only show up when he's around.

Well, things did not go well last night. OW and son weren't there and it still didn't go well.

15 mins after I dropped ds off, he texts me. Says his dad won't let him go to the neighbors house to play. I said, 'i'm sorry son, love you.'

A few minutes later, 'he is making me give him my Itouch so he can read my texts.'

I said, 'maybe you will have a good supper.'

Few minutes later. 'Everytime I text you he makes me give it to him and then makes fun of me for being a tattle tale.'

I said, "i'm sorry. can you go outside and play?'

A few minutes later (I am inside a store shopping) he texts, 'Help! I ran to neighbors!'

So I texted back what happened and he said his dad kept reading his texts and then cut off the wifi.

Later I found out he had been put in a corner in his room because he wouldn't hand over the Itouch, so he sneaked out the back door and bailed over the fence and ran to the neighbors.

When I read he had ran to the neighbors I left the store and drove to the neighbors. They were just astonished that XH is being such a jerk...I told ds to go to the car and I'd be right there...talked to the neighbors for a minute...they want to know how long will the law force this child to go see XH.

So I told ds he was just going to have to make the most of it---I walked him to the door and XH answers. Just looks at us. I said, 'What is going on?' He says,'I don't know.' I said, 'you don't know? I get a frantic text from our son that he has ran to the neighbors...what is going on?'

Well, we spent 5 minutes or so discussing it...ds told him he didn't want to stay and that he didn't like being made fun of. XH said he had to stay. So I told ds goodbye and that it was only 1 1/2 hours more until he would be home.

My brother seems to be CERTAIN that ds can stop going when he is 12. I am not sure. I think he is, like many people do, mixing up where a child LIVES with visitation. Two different issues...but probably should not be since the same issues make it an issue in the first place.

SW...

Is there any possibility that XH and OW are using your son as a sitter for the younger boy? Just wondering.

I don't know what to tell you. Let us know what the counselor and lawyer say.

SW...

Here is a link to AR law online:

http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/arcode/Default.asp

And the specific law you need is 9-13-108, (title 9, subtitle 2, chapter 13, subchapter 1), which reads:

9-13-108. Visitation -- Preference of child.

In an action under this subchapter concerning a person's right to visitation with a minor child, the circuit court may consider the preferences of the child if the child is of a sufficient age and capacity to reason, regardless of chronological age.

Thank you! This is very helpful.

My neighbor believes that XH doesn't know what to do with ds. Remember prior to our divorce XH was VERY uninvolved with me AND our son. He was always off on 4-wheeler trips, or NASCAR trips, or Vegas, or fishing, or skiing. He never (rarely) took us with him.

I was just wondering if XH and OW go off in another room, shut the door, and leave the boys to entertain each other. Just wondering.

Like you said, he could be acquiescing to whatever OW says, believing she has more experience with children. Did you ever get a background check done on her? Is that possible to do?

I don't know, SW...

You have to abide by the agreement for now or you could be held in contempt and it could all backfire.

I would check with your lawyer. Again...make a list...

Maybe a statement from the neighbors and extended family would be valuable?

Find out what the counselor thinks about visitation and how it's affecting your son.

Find out if XH can be forced to attend parenting classes, maybe.

I just. don't. know.

Ds says they do not go off into another room and leave the boys alone.

I think he is just a terrible father and thinks he can create a family with OW and her son.

SW I know this whole thing is hard and wearying, but can you see how an intermediary would have been great last night, to de-escalate these situations? Instead of you going over to the neighbors and all. I don't know much about IMs but like if it was an older guy your ex had respect for, you could call him when this stuff happens, and let him go as a calming presence. He could calmly show your ex solely by example how to de-escalate these situations, just like you do at home. You had 11 years and lots of practice to become a great mom, but your ex got a late start.

And your boy at his most calm and easy to parent at this point in his life.

Again, ME being subjected to XH is not a problem. The problem is that ds is. The only person that would be protected by an IM would be XH. I would still hear it all from my child (I WANT my child to feel he can tell me anything) and my child would still be living it.

As far as XH listening to anyone? Not a chance. He has NO ONE in his life with any morality. He has very shallow relationships with people he runs around with. He has no father, no step father, and he is not involved with any religion. There literally is NO ONE that would even agree to such a request.

No one would do that for you and your boy? I'm sorry, SW, I wish it was easier. How about discussing strategies with your son's IC?

Bullies respond to strength. If your H knew a man he can respect was going to hear all this stuff, he'd stifle it. That's the only thing bullies respond to, someone they respect.

Sorry, SW. You know how we always give other folks the advice we need to hear? I need a calm personality to be a mediator for my family. I'm tired of the escalation business.

Therein lies the problem. XH respects no one.

Sorry Ned. Is this with your FOO? Or your XH and kids?

The trouble is your X is using your son to twist the knife on you.

As long as you remain emotionally engaged in this conflict, he's going to continue to abuse your son.

You need to discuss some kind of disengagement strategy with your son's therapist because this is only going to continue until you find a way out of the deadlock trap.

Your X knows full well you don't dare take him back to court right now. So document and get a 3rd party involved. The therapist can give you some guidance about this.

I agree with a lot of this, but I think that he's going to continue to abuse the kid as long as he breathes. This man obviously has some kind of impaired conscience. He is emotionally abusing his child.

SW, I think you need to get your son's therapist involved in this. Have you told him that your DS is throwing up because he is in such emotional stress? Have you told him about your son running away from his father's house?

You might also consider having your son take a VAR and recording conversations and playing them back for his therapist. It might give him some insight into what is going on during visitation.

SW, I was referring to my xh and the kids. It's not anywhere to the same level as your xh, thankfully, but I didn't realize how much that dynamic exhausts me and how much that dynamic must exhaust my kids until I read your posts. A little survivor guilt I guess, SW, we made it out, yet our kids are still exposed. Even in my house, my kids can get reactive, but like you I have had plenty of practice so I can de-escalate it when they're with me.

At counseling now. Ds with him. I won't see counselor until next week. I am logging what happens at his dads.

Will you talk to the counselor before the next visitation?

Please call the therapist and tell him what's going on. Your WXH is probably spinning all this in a way that makes your son look foolish/childish/spoiled. If my kid were so upset that he was throwing up, I'd be scheduling emergency therapy sessions and taking action.

WXH spinning it? To whom?

Ds is not still throwing up and I really don't know for sure that is why he was throwing up. He likes the counselor and he likes going.

Ds said the counselor told him the results of the testing he did last week.He tested at age 18 on his memory test and 10th grade on his spelling and reading. Lowest was math and that was 7th grade level. That is no surprise to me of course, but I was happy ds could hear a 3rd party tell him he is bright. In fact he has to remember this phrase to repeat back to the doc next week. "I will make mistakes, but I am bright, very bright."

Ds didn't offer up any more of what went on and I am not going to pry although it is killing me.

I must have misunderstood. I thought that WXH was taking him to the therapist and giving the counselor HIS take on what's going on with your DS. I'm sorry I upset you.

It sound like your DS and his therapist are starting to build a good relationship. That will be helpful if you need to get the custody agreement changed to protect your DS from his father.

Oh I wasn't upset..just confused. I see now that my post wasn't clear. I was typing from my phone and didn't use enough words. I took ds, but I didn't speak to counselor today.

Ds socked his step brother (10)in the face last night. Dss's check is black and blue this morning.

Sigh. I'm at my limit.

((SW))

Parenting is hard. Step-parenting is harder.

That would frustrate any parent. I have four brothers, and they would pummel each other into the ground, destroying the furniture in the process, and then get up and go play Playstation together. Thank goodness they're grown, because we never figured out what to do about that.

You can ask DS's IC about exercises to help him with impulse control. And then you could post them here for the rest of us to use with our own kids

Yes, I plan to do just that.

They were friends again very quickly...but it is an on going issue with all 3 of them...mostly between dh's two boys and between my ds and the youngest dss (10). Dh got up the next morning and gathered some information about controlling ourselves...used the example of Cain and Able and how Cain was warned specifically by God to get mastery of his anger. It was a good discussion, the boys were all agreeable to it...it wasn't directed at any one of them--all of them are guilty of some degree of harm to the other two.

I just hate that my ds HIT AND left such a bruise on dss. Dss punched back, but I guess he didn't hit in the face. Dh's Xwife asked what happened when we dropped them off. Dh told her that thet just got into it.

As far as it being 'normal'....well, I like a phrase I heard once. 'Age expected but not accepted.' And that is what we are going with...dh tells me about growing up the oldest boy of 4 boys/3 girls. The scraped and fought something terrible...dh was the biggest and oldest and he would hurt one of his brothers in a fight then go off and cry because he did. My dh is a mild man in control of himself, so I guess there is hope for our boys.

I worry MUCH more about ds smashing himself in the face. He did that this weekend too. Just gonna tell the counselor about it and hope that it is a phase that will pass if we keep giving him enough love and support.

For a different approach, I have two boy cousins who were a "handful". When they got to be teens, and far taller and stronger than my uncle, my uncle resorted to making them go out in backyard and dig ditches. If their attitudes didn't straighten up by time they finished, they had to refill them. Lol!

Worked for them. They grew up into fine young men who respected authority and hard work.

DH's XW, mother to his sons, is demanding that their boys not be exposed to my son. She contacted DHS in her state the day after we took them home. She says they told her to let them know if DH would agree to her request/demand.

Before she told dh that she had contacted DHS, he told her we were dealing with it and were not ignoring the situation but that he would not agree to keeping the boys apart.

I am going to cry.

((((SmilingWoman)))) I'm so sorry.

About to come undone. I just can't believe she would do this. Ds is a year older than dss...dss outweighs my ds by 30pounds. When XWife moved their boys into a house with her boyfriend (she has since married him) her live in boyfriend's son (who is 6 years older than dss) had dss on the floor pounding on his chest. DH didn't call dhs then. He told her she better find a way to stop that from happening again and she said ok and that was the end of it.

Guess dh doesn't deserve the same consideration.

Would really appreciate it if someone would tell me that this is all going to be ok.

What will probably happen? Nothing? Is this even a DHS matter? Step brothers fighting?

Dh tried to get hold of DHS today but the case worker is out until Monday. EX-wife is being unbelievably nasty.

We think she is trying to get weekends changed to accomodate her husband's work schedule.

(((SW)))
I read this update this afternoon and was immediately thinking that, while I wouldn't want to be in your shoes, the reality is that I highly doubt this will change anything. Sorry I couldn't get on it earlier but I really think you have little to worry about at this juncture. I can't speak from experience with DHS; however I have had a fair amount of experience with a similar governmental service (elders at risk) and they are painfully slow. So if DHS is anything like that, the process will drag out so long that your melodramatic nemesis is likely to tire of her own antics in the meantime (personally I think that's part of these agency's strategy, and it really works well until someone dies because they didn't react quickly enough~ and we all have seen it in the news).

However, in defense of the people operating these programs: they are just that - people. Overworked and underpaid. They are there to protect folks from abuse, neglect, and truly ugly situations like you don't want to know about (NOT step brothers fighting). They also will pick right up on her overbearing nastiness. If you and your DH can manage to be the voice of reason; nothing will ever come of all this - I say that with confidence. Sounds like a lot of drama to me, drama that a overburdened branch of the healthcare system will not be extremely interested in.

So take a deep breath okay SW, and take care of your boys. I know things will be alright.

Opt

Wow SW, talk about a woman over-reacting. These are little boys for pete's sake! I agree with Opt, that this probably won't go anywhere, especially when they find out the family dynamics. It would be different if there was a history there, but there isn't. Right?

She probably IS doing it to make a case for visitation change. She's really reaching though and I suspect a Judge might just see through that. Keep a record of anything she sends you or says and DO NOT RESPOND. Let your DH deal with her.

You're gonna be okay sweetie.

I don't know, I don't think it's 'reaching' to not want your children exposed to a person who has assaulted them. Even if the person is another child. Especially if the child has assaulted other people in a similar manner (he blacked that 13yo's eye) and himself.

SW, perhaps it will be helpful to you to put yourself in exW's shoes and imagine if it was OWs son who assaulted your son, and how you would react. I wouldn't worry about Child Services...you are addressing your son's aggression through professional counseling, and that will be highly in your favor. The people who end up in trouble and watched by those people are the parents who DON'T do anything for troubled kids. You're addressing it.

How about agreeing to switch weekends, voluntarily? Apologize to her for your son's behavior and tell her that you're addressing it and would be happy to help keep everyone safe while the situation is being resolved. Would that work for you? I'm just worried that this will get uglier and uglier if you approach it as enemies.

I have put myself in her shoes and I felt sick about the entire incident immediately. HOwever, I would NEVER pull DHS into my family unless I had exhausted all other avenues of solving the issue. Dh is dealing with her. He is not approaching the situation adversarily. He told her that they (dh and XH) are both good parents who have their boys best interest at heart and the situation is being dealt with. And that contacting DHS was unnecessary.

My ds has very limited time at his dad's house. He is never there for a full weekend. And then what about summer? Ds doesn't go to his dad's for any summer break. Switching weekends isn't a reasonable solution to a one time incident.

I have spoken to an attorney and been advised that DHS is very unlikely to even get involved in this at all. They have real issues of abuse and neglect to deal with. Two step brothers, close in age and size (my ds is actually much less in weight) having a scuffle is not high on DHS's list of priorities.

OW's son has punched my son on several occassions. It has made me made as heck and I've told XH to put a stop to it. Granted this child is several years smaller and younger than my son...but regardless it made me furious. However, I NEVER, not ONCE considered contacting DHS. Even despising the OW the way I do I would not consider doing that without trying many many other things first.

SW, how are things? What did the lawyer say about your son's visitation? What's going on with DH's exW and DHS? I hope things have cooled down.

The visit with my attorney was pretty much as I expected. He said XH is an [censored] and a jerk of a father....but that isn't grounds for severing the parent/child relationship. He said he would file a motion and that the judge would hear the case...but he said in his opinion the judge would give XH a stern 'talking to' about being a better father and that would be that. Especially in view of the fact that XH doesn't even have the standard amount of visitation as it is.

He said age of child is only ONE factor in whether visitation can be stopped. When I told him ds is in counseling he said, good and that if the counselor believes visitation is detrimental to ds then that will be an entire different ball of wax and then attorney would RECOMMEND I take it back to court.

XH seems to be trying. OW hasn't been there last several trips that ds has made to his dad's. And Wednesday I went to visit my former neighbor....ds grew up on that street with their kids...so the kids were playing and ds went over and asked his dad if he could get his dirt bike out and ride with the neighbor/friend. In the recent past, especially when OW is there, XH won't let ds visit his friend across the street...saying it is rude to OWs kid to run off to the neighbors...or that it is XH's time and he doesn't want ds to go to neighbors. Well, Wed not only did XH let him play until about 7. (his visitation starts at 5:30) he then let the neighbor kid come eat with them. So I see he is trying. And he asked ds if he (ds) likes it better without OW and child there. Ds told him yes.

Dh's XW situation is not good. She is FURIOUS that we wouldn't switch weekends to keep my son from hers. So this weekend is our weekend...and it isn't pretty. First of all, as background info, their visitation schedule is not set in a court order. So much has changed in both their lives that the original is not being followed at all. But the last 8 months they have been doing the every other weekend. We meet roughly half way at 6 on Friday and 6 on Sunday.

Well, THIS Sunday is a very important religous observation for us. She is currently not practicing our religion AT ALL except for this one day a year. We however, ARE practicing and living our faith and taking the boys to religious services whenever we have them. The service on Sunday begins at 7:30 p.m. What dh wanted to do is have them with us this Sunday evening for this event and take them all the way to school Monday morning. When he suggested that to his XW this morning she quicky said no. That he WOULD have them at the drop/off point at 6:00 on Sunday in their suits (showing she intends to take them with her to this event in their area) or she would call the police. He said, 'To do that I would miss the service here in our town.' She said, 'that is not my problem. You refused to change weekends and work with me so this is what you get.'

If he gives up on the idea of having them with us he will HAVE to get them back early in order to be able to get back here and attend our service.

Ok, so we have quite a problem. Not sure how we are going to handle it. But I have to leave in a couple of hours to go pick them up.

What a mess.

((SW))

I'm sorry. You'd think that if she has basically dropped her religion, she wouldn't be a jerk about this one event.

Yes. One would think. The thing is she is feeling some pressure (internal plus her parents who live out of state) to attend. She doesn't want to go alone. That is dh's theory anyway. I think he is probably right.

What gets me is her demand that they be 'in their suits' when he drops them off. Suits dh bought and that stay at our house since they only use them here. As unreasonable as she is being we are suppose to assume she will send the suits back next visit? Ugh.

One option is for dh, ds and I to all load up, dressed up, and go to the same service she is planning to take the boys to. LOL...that would be funny huh? I would do that...but dh and I both want to be at our own congregation for this service.

{{{SW}}}

I can't believe that you are LOLing about the religious services your family attends. Why would it be funny, in the eyes of God, for your family to attend services together?

I didn't say anything about in the eyes of God....it just makes me giggle to think about all of us being in one building together.

Good Grief CWMI. Must you always attack?

Why would it be funny to you for the parents of all your children to be in one room? And you said church, ma'am. Why would you giggle to find all the parents of your collective children in God's house together?

SW, you married a man knowing that there were children who already had a mother. Did you negotiate the 'never being in the same room' thing you giggled at the thought of, before you married?

Oh, sorry, you said 'same building'.

You laugh at the thought of being in the same building as the mother of your step-sons. Why, SW? Other than your son assaulting hers, why the animosity?

I'm sorry, SW. Years ago my father and brother and I went through massive heartache as we tried to preserve the right of my brother and I to attend regular religious services after my mother dropped her religion. It was a mess. On one instance due to a long, long chain of concessions made back and forth, my brother was present with us but my mother came along. I broke out in a rash from the strain and stress. It's probably the only religious service she's attended in the last fifteen years, though.

Please go away and leave me alone CWMI. You never 'get' anything I am trying to say. It would be funny to me because she is trying so hard to derail the most important day of the year for us and it would make her VERY uncomfortable to have us join her.

Yes, Markos...the boys are the reason we WON'T do that. It would stress them out I am sure. But we do have a real problem on our hands.

Thanks for understanding.

We aren't friends CWMI. It would not be comfortable for any of us just because we are in God's house.

Why the button pushing? My ds assaulted hers? Why that terminology? In that case her son assaulted mine too. But I do have animosity toward her the same as I do toward my XH. They are cheaters who blew up families.

SW, how about having someone else drop the kids? I know it's probably a schlep and all, but you guys sound like great folks and if you were my neighbor and it wasn't my holiday I'd go schlep them for you.

Thanks NED! Lots of people who would do that for us on ANY other day of the year. Everyone in our life will be at the same religious observance.

This junk has gone on all day. Dh has emailed and texted back and forth with her....He has remained very repectful but she a) wouldn't budge on letting the boys go with us and b)wouldn't let us take them home early so that we could get back home in time to make the service in our own congregation. He told he he could not make the 6 p.m. drop off. She said, 'not my problem. I can't get them before 6. I know your address and if you don't meet me at 6 I will call the police.'

Ugh. And a bunch of other stuff...'I'm not going to tolerate you dictating when you will drop the boys off.' FTR, he asked, suggested, reasoned...he didn't dictate. She is the only one dictating. "Be there at 6 or I will call police.'? Seriously?

Anyway, he has in mind a friend in the town where we drop them off....we could take them early to their house and they could go meet the XW at 6. It is either that or just not take them back (until the next morning) and deal with the consequences of that...I don't fear the police...I can't really picture them busting into our religous service to arrest my dh...but I do fear, as does dh, getting the boys all upset because they know their mom will be upset.

SW-

How does your husband feel about going back to court to make it possible to follow visitation? I could see how it may be unwelcome in the short run, but it may make your life more simple/less dramatic in the long run..

Perfect! How'd it go?

If she keeps on being so unreasonable we will have to....but not sure it would help. Because it is the special situations that she is so difficult about.....no matter how detailed a visitation plan is there will always be times an adjustment is needed.

In the end, she texted back and 'allowed' my dh to take the boys home at 3:00. He had to drive all the way to their town instead of meeting her half way.

He inteneds to write a follow up email to her, pointing out that none of the drama and threats were necessary and that all it did was upset everyone. The boys were upset in the end too because she waited until an hour before he had to leave to tell him she would let him do that. So even though we didn't tell them any of what was going on between their parents, they had to hurry and pack up at the last minute and it didn't go the way she had told them it would.

She knew from the very beginning that it would be impossible for dh to be at regular drop off point at 6:00 p.m. on this special night. So instead of being obtuse why not come up with an alternate plan in the beginning instead of all the threats and drama and blaming.

In this case, when you guys finally came up with a plan, the drama went away... if you think this kind of thing will be constantly resurfacing (maybe she won't stop until she gets her way with the visitation weekends) perhaps you could look into registering with one of those services that provides sitters/intermediaries for children. My friend works for the local one where I live. Many parents I work with enjoy the convenience of having a sitter with background check show up time/place needed to watch your kid. They list jobs, and someone from their pool of sitters takes the job.

They're pricey and I prefer to have someone reliable that I already know (sometimes you get a sitter you�ve never met before), so I haven�t actually used them yet, but registering for them in case of emergency is part of my adjustment to single mom-hood.

I couldn�t find it, but an earlier post said part of the problem may be the enjoyment they get out of your reactions. A service like that could help you find a permanent or occasional IM so that you can both minimize their ability to see your reactions as well as defuse drama like this drop-off scheduled during the important religious service.

She never knew dh was considering that. After one of her long, button pushing texts where she said (again) that she would call police if we didn't have them there AT SIX...well, dh just went totally silent on her. Many hours later she texted back with the suggestion that we bring them all the way home at 3:00.

I don't know if she gets enjoyment out of causing us grief...it seems to be more about having her way. And she had it in her mind that it would be convenient (for her) to retrieve the boys (in their suits) at 6:00 and she could then drive to a congregation nearby for the service before she went home. It was as if she had blinders on to any other reasonable compromise because she wanted it a certain way. Oh and along with the fact, she WAS still very angry about dh refusing to keep my ds from the boys. She even said, 'well, you wouldn't cooperate with me about switching weekends, so this is what you get.' In that case, DC, you are right, she WAS getting some spiteful enjoyment out of causing us grief.

However, dh said he knows SHE was VERY upset the entire weekend too...because those types of things really upset her. He said he was sure she was sobbing her eyes out most of the weekend. So she brought grief on herself too.

Boys only have 4 more weeks of school. Time for dh to begin discussions with her about how to split summer break. Oh joy.

Just an update. Looking over the calender and I believe the last time XH had OW and her child there with ds was 3-27! That was the huge blow up over OW's son punching ds in stomach.

And XH has been letting ds play with the neighbor and have neighbor eat supper with them. XH asked ds if he is happier when OW isn't there and ds told him yes. So it appears XH is trying to make ds's time with him more pleasant.

Every year for the last 10 years or so, XH has gone on a big 4 wheeler ride on Easter weekend. (never took me or ds though) This year it fell on his weekend (this weekend) with our ds. I told dh weeks ago that I was sure XH 1)would not skip the trip 2)would not take ds with him--it would cramp his style.

XH had a limited amount of discussion with me about it. About 2 weekends ago he mentioned it and asked if I would switch out the last two weekends in April. I said I would have to see what was going on last weekend of April (my weekend) and let him know about that but that it was certainly ok for him to skip his weekend. Then on Wednesday of this week he asked ds if he wanted to go and ds said no. So this morning at 7:30 I get a text that says, 'ds doesn't want to go on the trip, so can I just get him on Sunday.' I replied, 'sure, no problem.'

Lately it feels like he is going back to the kind of father he was to ds before the seperation. The more I back off the more he goes back to his old patterns.

Hi SW,

I haven't posted too much on your thread, because I really don't have any advice for you. I didn't have to deal with what you are dealing with.

I just wanted to let you know that I'm sorry for your frustration. I hope things can smooth out for your family soon.

Thanks MY.

Update....just to keep from having HUGE updates...:)


Took ds to his counseling session today. Was able to tell the counselor we are having issues still with him hitting himself. He was with ds about 45 min and then called me back. He is working with that specific issue with ds....and wants me to help him keep ds accountable. Ds is not being honest with counselor (ds told me this after we left today), so that is a problem too. I will start keeping a log of the times that ds hits on himself.

Counselor did help me with ideas on bedtime...how to help ds wind down without it devolving into a meltdown like it often does at the end of the day. Ok, that sentence made it sound like he is 2 and I can't get him to stay in his crib or something. Good grief....to explain, I often put ds to bed, say prayers and then ds wants to go over EVERY single thing that has happened to him that day and that usually morphs out to all the woes of his life...well, counselor gave me some specific things to do to control bedtime routines and help ds calm down.


He doesn't seem to act like there is anything horribly wrong with ds. He talks to ds about 'your kind of brain', and says it is an intense personality and that bedtime if often like that for kids like him because they can't get things to shut down/off. Oh, and he told ds today that he comes by his intense personality honestly. Hmmm....:)

This is common in kids...it is a quiet time where you get a parent to yourself and you want to talk to the parent about what is going on. When they get older they won't want to talk to you much so cherish this time. I would mentally prepare myself for a 20 minute bedtime routine instead of a 5 minute one. Also maybe have your son talk about good things as well and things he is grateful for.

Maybe my son and I are just prone to meltdowns, lol, but that makes total sense to me. We�re very �intense� our selves (trying to overcome that!)

Curious what things the counselor told you to ease the routine? Our routine is book, prayer, snuggle w/accompanying �spew� of daily events. I try to budget enough bedtime to allow him to spew. And insist on a very short book if I don�t budget enough time. The talking/snuggling is the most important thing to him. But if I don�t go through the whole thing, it�s scream-city. I�d love to find some techniques to cut that time without making him feel unloved, if you don�t mind sharing.

I'm certainly paying for my raisin' that is for sure. My mom said I would keep her awake for hours talk, talk, talking. Intense is a word that would be used to describe me as well....

I do understand that bedtime is a time of bonding with a parent. I 'get' that. What is just beyond reasonable is that he lets the whole weight of the world crush him during these talks. Also, remember he is homeschooled and he has the ENTIRE day to talk to me and he talks A LOT. I just don't want anyone to think I'm rushing bedtime and he is not able to fully express himself because of that.

Daisy, the counselor suggested, prayers, start the soothing music and do 5 or ten minutes of me 'writing' letters on his back and forming words. This has worked like magic the last week. Along with that I am using a suggestion of my dh who said he used to do the same thing to his mom (a widow of 7)...she would say, 'Mr. SW, just go to sleep! We will talk about it in the morning.' Amazingly this works really well. If I ever allow him, in a tired state, while he also wants me to stay with him, to start in on all his worries and regrets it only turns bad. Nothing good is accomplished by allowing it to get to that point.

LOL...my Mom used to say I hope you have a dozen just like you. I got my dozen all rolled into one! I, too, do what your DH's mother did. I tell DS, "It's time to go to sleep, you need to be quiet. No more talking now. You can tell me in the morning. Works EVERY time.

"tell me in the morning" I love that! Why on earth did I never think of that??? It's so much nicer than what I have been doing (ok, honey, that's it good night...shuts door while he's still talking)

Wow, I just read what I wrote and it sounds so heartless but I really, really, love my boy!

Oh, not nearly as heartless as what has happened to my ds and me MANY times at bedtime! I try to reason with him and it just spirals out of control..he gets more unreasonable and I get more frustrated until I'm saying, 'KNOCK IT OFF!!!'

Oh, yeah, THAT is a good way to put one's kid to sleep.

I LOVE the 'tell me in the morning.' Sometimes he tells me 'I won't remember!' To which I reply, 'if it is still important to you in the morning you WILL remember!'

SW we have a lot in common, lol! Thanks for sharing that

Been several months since I updated this. Kept taking ds to counseling and he has seemed much better. They put him on Zoloft and he is much calmer. However, in the past week he has spiraled down further into a depression and his counselor had me take him to a child psychitrist. So working through all of that and had to discuss it with XH.

He, XH is pretty upset by it. He told me yesterday that if he had known the divorce would do this to our son he would have just 'stuck it out.' I said, 'well, I divorced you remember? When you say 'stick it out' do you mean you wish you had not had sex with other women?' He said 'yes,' that is what he meant. Strange to me how his characterizations of how our marriage ended is so far from the reality. He said he was looking for happiness because he and I fought all of the time. Ok, whatever.

I told him I KNEW these type of problems were bound to come up after a divorce and that I would have NEVER divorced him if he would have just been faithful. Then he proceeded to tell me it was my fault he cheated. Ok, whatever.

At 12:47 a.m he texted me to ask how our son is doing. VERY strange for a man who practically got a court order to keep me from texting him after 10 p.m. I texted him back this morning and mentioned that the text came through in the middle of the night...he said that was when he texted it! That he couldn't sleep for worrying about our beautiful son.

He feels certain that it is MY fault that our son is in a depression. Because I won't accept OW in XH's life and be all friendly about her. XH says ds would be fine with OW if I was---that ds only dislikes her because he thinks I want him to. I said, 'You insult our son's moral compass.'

So nothing much changes with my WXH. It is still all about him and how nothing is really his fault. But he is starting to really really regret being divorced from me and ds suffering like he is.

Ds told him a few weeks back that he likes it when OW isn't there....and XH said, 'well, what will you do if I marry her?' Ds said, 'Kill myself.' I don't know how XH can continue to see her knowing it affects ds the way it does. Hopefully, it will eventually be a deal killer for XH and OW.

Waywards may love their kids
but not as much
as they love themselves
though ironically they harmed themselves by the affair.

It is totally like any other addiction. The high is more alluring than stopping the cruelty all around.

It is just such a selfish characteristic. It makes me crazy. XH kept telling me last night that I just didn't 'give him a chance.' I said, "You didn't want a chance! You did nothing to show you were sorry....you kept seeing her and you are STILL seeing her.'

He also told me about going to a wedding this weekend (without OW) and how he got hit on by at least two women but he went home alone. Gag. I said, 'well I'm sure OW appreciates your faithfulness.' Double gag....dripping with sarcasm.

Dh told me last night to try to not defend myself with XH. Just take XH's 'version' of how our marriage ended and say, 'ok. gotta go now.'

I didn't ask more questions of him because I don't like to encourage his gut spilling to me, but I am very curious why OW wasn't with him. It very much seems to me like they are not a 'real' couple....they spend more time apart than together or at least what I know of it....and I know more than I want to because of my former neighbors who tell me stuff.

XH is skipping his vistation this weekend---he got confused on what his weekend was (we had to do some switching and I think he honestly did get confused) and scheduled a trip out of town. He told ds he wouldn't have him this weekend but didn't tell him why. All this after XH has 'talked' about taking ds on vacation for months now. He even scheduled vacation and then backed out immediately...which was fine because ds didn't really want to go anyway.

The more I leave XH to his own devices the more he hangs himself, so to speak.

:)ing Woman,
I'm very sorry to hear of your son's situation. I hope you can get him the help he needs.

It occurred to me that you tend to get into quite some depth of conversations with your ex. I don't see it as healthy to speak with an ex about ANYTHING that doesn't directly relate to your shared child. I can say from personal experience that I have resisted temptations in the past to get into adjunctive conversations (as has the ex, fortunately) and I have noticed a lot more healing when I can follow through with that. Conversely, at first I didn't know where to set that boundary and I remember having more difficulty with some of the aspects of divorce/separation etc.

I think we've already talked about Plan B... for YOU. And your HEALTH. And the health of your relationship with your husband. Maybe you don't see it as a possibility. But, I wonder if really watching the subject matter you get into with the ex isn't a good idea. Really watching it and limiting it.


It seems that his affair is crumbling. And that could be a good thing for your son. However, I would not make that much of your concern as you don't have much control over it.

just some thoughts SW.
Opt

Point taken. You aren't the first person to tell me that. In my defense, I have been working VERY hard on that and most of the big conversations we get into I've posted here....it isn't like it is an every day or even every week event. He works very hard to pull me INTO conversations. Two weeks in a row he jumped out of his truck to give me some fresh produce that he bought from a local organic farmer. I tried to refuse but he just insisted....said he had bought too much and it would go to waste.

Often when I drop off ds he will be waiting in the driveway and just jump into some trivial conversation with me about his work, or whatever.

This latest conversation was of course necessary....about our son. And since I had kept most of it from him (at ds's request) for months, there was a bit of catch up to do. That conversation naturally went to cause and where the blame lay....

I too can see I heal much better with less contact with him. Last night for instance, his casual comment that *I* caused him to cheat on me....just infuriated me. The conversation ended shortly after that comment because he had arrived at his house and ds was there waiting on him....when I hung up I was so angry I wanted to begin a furious texting war, but took a deep breath and called my dh instead.



Yes I do agree on both counts...that the affair might be crumbling and that I have no control over it either way.

Talked to ds at length today. He thinks I am sad. I asked what does he think I am sad about...he said OW. I told him I am not sad about her anymore...that time heals some sadnesses..but that just because I am not 'sad' doesn't mean I accept what she has done.

I find it insane that XH thinks it is ok to keep her in ds's life. I had this analogy in my head....it might not be perfect, so maybe an analogy pro can help me...

Say XH owns a store of some sort. So he hires a young pretty girl (and let's pretend ds is a teenager) and ds digs her and they start dating. XH discovers this girl is stealing from the store. He confronts her and fires her...tells her to not come back to his store. XH tells ds, 'she is a thief! She stole from me!' Ds shrugs and says, 'so what? I like her. And further more I'm bringing her to Sunday dinner whether you like it or not.'

That is how it feels to me for a man to INSIST that it is ok to bring the OW around his son...

SW, your x isn't that powerful. You know who is in charge.

Zephaniah 3:17 NIV

17 The LORD your God is with you,
he is mighty to save.
He will take great delight in you,
he will quiet you with his love,
he will rejoice over you with singing.

I know your x is a pain in the butt, but you will deal with him less and less. You know he's full of it, that he doesn't even believe the stuff he says, He's an impotent little man that ruined his life and the one person he still has fooled, can still get some rise out of, can still rile up, is you. You're getting your son the help he needs. Let this man lie his little lies to himself.

I wish your ex a great life. I honestly hope that this will be his bottom, that he will see that God still loves him, and puts his life back together. But not at your expense, SW. You can't save him. Never could. Give him over to the one who can. Let him go, every morning if you need to.

Smiling Woman, you need to learn some techniques to make these conversations stop. There is NEVER a reason to talk to your XH unless it is an EMERGENCY. And by emergency, I mean there is something the X needs to know about your DS and there is a reason why he cannot talk to his dad. For instance, if your DS was injured in a car wreck and XH needs to know so he can go to the hospital.

When you drive up to custody exchanges, do not get out of the car and do not roll down your window. If XH seems insistent, open the window just enough to tell him to send you an email.

If he tries to have a phone conversation with you, tell him that you prefer email. All decision-making communications SHOULD be made by email so that you have a written record of what was communicated and decided. Even if your XH isn't a jerk, it's helpful to have something to check if you can't remember everything about a conversation. You should also save copies of everything you send, so if you can't remember if you told XH about grades or issues at school or whatever, you can refer back to what you sent.

This is what I do. I am almost always there first waiting to drop ds off. When we see him on the street I tell ds to hop out and I am backing out of the drive before XH gets his truck in park. That works well. About 90% of the time he doesn't walk ds to the door when he returns him to me.

And when he does manage to get at me, I just try to be polite and end the conversation quickly.

I do believe the recent situation with ds warranted speaking directly with XH. A texting conversation ensued yesterday afternoon which was how to help ds and it by necessitiy involved speaking of the divorce/ XH's adultery etc. I showed the texting exchange to my dh and he was in total agreement that the conversation was necessary due to what is going on with ds. He was very pleased at how I handled myself, refusing to get pulled into the SW/XH portion of the past but rather focusing on how the betrayal has affected our SON. Basically, to sum it up, XH feels that if I would give my 'approval' of XH having a relationship with OW that all of ds's problems would be solved.

NED you are correct that he is a little little man full of lies that only he believes. I however, am only affected by the lies to the extent it affects my son.

I don't WANT to save him. If ds didn't have to deal with him, I wouldn't care what XH does.

I can't figure out how to make ds feel better about a situation that I don't think anyone should have to tolerate.

As adults would any of us maintain a relationship with a person who has so deeply hurt us and continues to show zero remorse or repentence?

SW I just saw this. I think I was 10 and my brother 8 when my Dad left us for a home wrecker who made his life miserable for years. My Mom was honest with us about what happened. My brother and I loved our Dad even though we knew he was lying to us. Have you read the article on the site Infidelity: The Lesson Children Learn? In time your son will learn to detach in love and accept his dad where he's at. Maybe he's already getting there. I know it felt at the time like we were betraying our Mom by not holding a grudge against our Dad, but I'm glad now that I didn't hold a grudge.